September 17, 2011
— Open Blogger The populist pap from people like Ross Perot and more recently Donald Trump about raising tariffs on foreign goods “to protect American jobs” is a real turn-off for me. Why? Because I can do the economics. Stick with me here, and you will be able to, too (but I promise there will be no math involved). From an economics standpoint, there is really no good argument for tariffs—from the consumerÂ’s, or the producerÂ’s standpoint—free trade means everyone can benefitÂ… assuming our trading partners are actually engaging in free trade. David Ricardo and the Corn Laws
David Ricardo was one of the giants of “political economy”—a term for early macroeconomics. Ricardo, a Jewish stockbroker, read Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations while on holiday in 1799 and was immediately taken with the political arguments mathematical economics might present. He wrote his first economics article at age 37 and reached the height of his influence ten years later, after retiring from the financial business and entering Parliament.
Perhaps the best-known debate on the issue of free trade took place in Parliament during those early years of the 19th century. At that time, the landed nobility—the landowners—controlled Parliament. From 1815 to 1848, imports and exports of grain were subject to tariffs, subsidies and regulations collectively called the Corn Laws, which were designed to discourage importation of grains and encourage their exports. In general, they sought to keep the price of food high; ostensibly to provide good wages to the agrarian worker, but in reality to keep financial and political power in the hands of the landed classes and out of the hands of the bourgeoisie and new financial class. The landlords’ income, clearly, was based in large part upon the value of what they produced. The Corn Laws served to maintain agrarian elite power.
With the advent of the Industrial Revolution, a class of wealthy, urban capitalist emerged. The wages they had to pay were determined in part on the cost of living. The cost of living was based in part upon the cost of food. Food prices kept artificially high hurt their bottom line. And tariffs on grain imports kept food prices artificially high. The political battles raged for some thirty years. However over time, the power of the landowners in the House of Lords gradually diminished.
On the side of repeal was David Ricardo. His principle work, On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation, was published in 1817. In 1819, he entered Parliament. RicardoÂ’s Theory of Comparative Advantage, which he used to successfully argue against the Corn Laws, states that specialization and trade will benefit both partners (real wages will rise), even if one trading partner is more efficient at producing everything than the other one.
How is this possible? The key lies in understanding the difference between absolute advantage and comparative advantage.
Absolute Advantage versus Comparative Advantage
A country enjoys an absolute advantage over another country if it uses fewer resources to produce a thing than the other country does. Suppose Elbonia and Krapistan both produce mung beans, but ElboniaÂ’s climate and soil are superior to KrapistanÂ’s, and that furthermore Elbonian labor is more industrious than the lazy Krapistani bums. Elbonia will produce more mung beans per acre than Krapistan and use less labor to bring it to market. Therefore Elbonia can sell mung beans and make a better profit margin on the world market than can Krapistan. Elbonia enjoys an absolute advantage over Krapistan in mung bean production.
But a country enjoys a comparative advantage in the production of a good if the good can be produced at a lower cost in terms of other goods. Suppose Elbonia and Krapistan both produce mung beans and parsnips and Elbonia enjoys an absolute advantage in producing both—that is, Elbonia uses fewer resources to produce either mung beans or parsnips than Krapistan. The central planners in both countries must decide how many resources to commit to both mung beans and parsnips. To produce more of one, land and labor must be transferred out of production of the other. Here’s the critical step: We can then measure the “cost” of production in both countries of mung beans in terms of bushels of parsnips, and vice-versa.
Suppose that in Elbonia, mung beans have an opportunity cost of two bushels of parsnips. That is, they have to give up two bushels of parsnips to grow a bushel of mung beans. At the same time, producing a bushel of mung beans in Krapistan requires the sacrifice of only one bushel of parsnips. Even though Elbonia has an absolute advantage in growing either commodity, Krapistan enjoys a comparative advantage in the production of mung beans because Krapistani farmers donÂ’t have to give up as much in terms of parsnips to grow them as Elbonian farmers do. The opportunity cost for Krapistan to produce mung beans is lower, and therefore they will devote greater resources to their production. Therefore Krapistan can benefit by specializing in mung beans and trading them to Elbonia for parsnips. Likewise, since Elbonian consumers now have a greater supply of mung beans on the international market, it is cheaper to buy them, and it makes sense for Elbonian farmers to grow more parsnips, which are now in shorter supply. Everyone benefits from specialization and trade.
This is the key argument in favor of free trade: While specific jobs in specific industries will indeed be “shipped overseas,” those jobs will be replaced by jobs with better real wages but in different industries; industries which will expand to meet demand created in other countries where the work previously done here will be done, drawing labor and capital away from other industries. Americans and American companies will meet needs created overseas when American consumers’ needs are met by overseas trading partners. And as both trading partners become more specialized and therefore profitable, real wages will rise both here and abroad.
The Giant Sucking Sound
Proponents of free trade have met with a number of arguments in favor of protectionism. The first one I’d like to rebut is this one: We Can’t Buy From Other Countries Unless They Simultaneously Buy From Us. Remember when Ross Perot opposed NAFTA on the grounds that there would be a “giant sucking sound” as all the good jobs in the US moved to Mexico, where labor is cheap? Let’s consider what would happen should this shift occur, as in some sectors, particularly manufacturing durable goods, it already has.
In US citizens wanted to buy everything in Mexico, but Mexicans did not buy anything from us, foreign exchange markets would prevent this from happening. See, Mexican workers are paid in pesos. To buy a good produced in Mexico, the buyer must have pesos. But if no Mexicans wanted to buy anything in the United States, there wouldn’t be anyone willing to part with pesos in exchange for dollars. As a result, the price of the peso—its exchange rate with the dollar—would necessarily go up.
A more expensive peso means Mexican products would be more expensive for Americans to buy. At the same time, the more valuable peso means that American goods become cheaper for Mexicans, since dollars are cheap and plentiful! This means that Mexicans find some goods cheaper in the United States. In fact, exports to Mexico increased from $46B in 1995 to $111B in 2000. The exchange rate adjusts to make up for any wage differential.
The China Syndrome
There is one important exception to this story. A country can buy more goods from another country for an extended period of time if those purchases are balanced by a sale of debt in the form of stocks and bonds. In 2010, the US maintained a $2.73B trade deficit with China. However, China had purchased about $32B in Treasury securities during 2010, more than making up for this trade imbalance, and keeping the value of the Renminbi Yuan artificially low.
Quite aside from the sticky political situation of the Chinese government holding upwards of $1.7T in dollar-denominated debt (as of October of 2010), the plight of the Chinese worker and the resultant push for reform and representation that will inevitably follow can only occur when China allows those workers to realize the gains they are creating by specializing and producing products for which they have a comparative advantage. As long as China holds our debt and continues to buy it, this will keep its currency value artificially low, preventing wages there to normalize. If wages do not normalize in China, there is little hope that capital flows will create commensurate jobs and industry in America. And as long as this “super-structural” unemployment infects our economy in America, it is unlikely that we will be able to manage the sustainable economic growth we need to beat the Obama presidency in particular and our dour and benighted political class in general.
The Opposite Strategy
In order to see how things might turn out if America would fare if she were able to export as much, or more, than she imports, letÂ’s examine the other industrial juggernaut of the West: Germany.
Germany is the worldÂ’s biggest exporter, selling over 100B Euros abroad in 2010. During this latest global recession, their unemployment rate has fallen steadily from 8.3% in March Â’09 to 7.0% in June of this year. Is this proof by counter-argument? ItÂ’s unclear, but there does seem to be a negative correlation between exports and unemployment. Certainly, countries buying up GermanyÂ’s durable goods and other exports are not buying up its debt.
Further, GermanyÂ’s national debt in 2009 was $1.79T, or about 62% of GDP. The US national debt in 2009 was $8.38T, about 60% of GDP; but in 2011, the national debt will surpass $14.3T, or over 90% of GDP. GermanyÂ’s debt-to-GDP is on course to stay about the same at 60-65% (depending on what happens with Eurozone bailouts).
Sherman and Clayton
The Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 and the Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914 (usually referred to collectively as Sherman-Clayton) prevent such anti-competitive practices as predatory pricing and collusion by American firms. Simply put, attempts by US firms to monopolize an industry are illegal. If a strong company decides to drive the competition out of the market by setting prices below cost, it would be aggressively prosecuted by the Antitrust Division of the DoJ (at least, in theory).
However, can we stand by and allow a foreign competitor do the same in the name for free trade? In essence, by keeping the price of their currency (and therefore the cost of their goods) artificially low, China is dumping its products on our shores below the true cost of production. How should we act when China acts to strategically drive American firms out of business in this way? Free trade may be in everyone’s best interest when we all play by the same rules. But when foreign firms are cheating, like the ones in China (and the American firms located in China), the group that suffers unduly is the American worker—both in terms of wages and benefits, and in terms of the total number of jobs available.
So even though I have already said how I feel about populist blowhards like Trump spewing no-nothing protectionism boilerplate, I have to come around and tell you this: The position they hold is fundamentally correct, even though the non-logic theyÂ’re using to get there and their message delivery are at the very least fundamentally flawed.
If we are honest-to-God gonna save our country, our culture, our way of life, then the time for protecting Americans and American industry from predators overseas is now.
Posted by: Open Blogger at
01:09 PM
| Comments (97)
Post contains 1948 words, total size 12 kb.
Posted by: TexasJew at September 17, 2011 01:12 PM (L8dBl)
Posted by: lu at September 17, 2011 01:12 PM (CQCIL)
Posted by: sven10077 at September 17, 2011 01:15 PM (AEIYh)
Posted by: lu at September 17, 2011 01:17 PM (CQCIL)
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 17, 2011 01:18 PM (ZDUD4)
Posted by: huerfano at September 17, 2011 01:18 PM (263hv)
Imagine if we knew that in five years we would have a competitive replacement for gasoline. At the same time we sell all of our refining capacity to the Chinese, and all of our gasoline pipelines (unneeded for the new technology) to the Russians.
It's the same thing, except for the destruction of our own economy in the first case.
Posted by: Henry Waxman (Super Genius) at September 17, 2011 01:19 PM (LH6ir)
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at September 17, 2011 01:19 PM (LH6ir)
Free Trade is a bitch, but we are the geniuses who destroyed our domestic industries by overpaying UAW workers and making crap cars for decades while we slapped on EPA regs on our profitable industries and taxing the shit out of success while turning the middle class into a whining welfare class.
Brilliant.
Posted by: TexasJew at September 17, 2011 01:19 PM (L8dBl)
Posted by: torabora at September 17, 2011 01:20 PM (Tou3T)
Posted by: sven10077 at September 17, 2011 01:21 PM (AEIYh)
Posted by: torabora at September 17, 2011 05:20 PM (Tou3T)
No tiny condoms, there..
Posted by: TexasJew at September 17, 2011 01:21 PM (L8dBl)
Posted by: Bob Smoot and Ray Hawley at September 17, 2011 01:21 PM (AZGON)
Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 17, 2011 01:21 PM (ZDUD4)
Posted by: sven10077 at September 17, 2011 01:22 PM (AEIYh)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 17, 2011 01:22 PM (5Z/+/)
Posted by: steevy at September 17, 2011 01:23 PM (fyOgS)
Posted by: Michelle Bachmann at September 17, 2011 01:24 PM (AZGON)
Posted by: toby928©: Perrykrishna and Urban Terrorist at September 17, 2011 01:24 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: sven10077 at September 17, 2011 01:24 PM (AEIYh)
Sorry open blogger but you are wrong. Stick with Ricardo and Bastiat. Trade is ALWAYS by definition balanced. The Keyenesian measurement of GDP is a bunch of crap; the American half of Chinese exports is Chinese dollars invested in the USA. Think of the accounting entry when you pay a foreign payable.
If China wants to 'predatory price' (does that mean lose money on every sale but make it up on volume?), what do we care?
You can not protect producers at the expense of cosumers. It never works. See GM bailout for more info. Or google "bastiat candlemakers petition" There is no math.
Posted by: Jim at September 17, 2011 01:25 PM (YAUyQ)
Posted by: Meh at September 17, 2011 01:25 PM (lUcoW)
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at September 17, 2011 01:25 PM (AF1jB)
As for China, if they are "dumping" that is illegal under the free trade laws and we are allowed to retaliate. But overall, our trade problems are not being caused by "cheap labor" in Mexico and China.
It is being caused mainly by unnecessary and expensive regulation that hardly ever achieves the original stated goal it was supposed to accomplish.
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 01:25 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 17, 2011 01:25 PM (5Z/+/)
Posted by: sven10077 at September 17, 2011 01:26 PM (AEIYh)
Posted by: TexasJew at September 17, 2011 01:26 PM (L8dBl)
So many of the "free traders" who rant in public that we have to allow everyone to "trade" with us unhindered seem to think this doesn't matter...perhaps because they make a buck off the results? I can recall such turd-polishers as Kudlow whining about trade restrictions we establish (when we do) while simultaneously ignoring the unfair advantages other countries set up for themselves.
When businesses move manufacturing offshore, that's "good for business," because the companies that do so are tired of dealing with "lazy, overpaid American workers." I agree: slaves who work for pennies an hour are much better if you want to maximize your ROI.
I agree that the theory of free trade is wonderful. The reality strikes me as something else altogether. What it all comes down to, like the stuttering clusterf*** of a miserable failure's policies, is that a time is fast approaching when Americans won't be able to buy much of anything. If, as I suspect, that coincides with slave labor suddenly deciding it wants to move into the middle class, there's gonna be one helluva mess, and no one will come out of it intact or happy.
Posted by: MrScribbler at September 17, 2011 01:26 PM (YjjrR)
PRC, for practical purposes, provides no social services and has almost no reg. costs (although they DO have plenty of bribe-costs.)
And of course, there are tax costs in the US which are not present in PRChina.
So other than currency manipulation, labor arbitrage (which includes social costs) and tax/reg costs, it's all "fair."
Uh-huh.
Posted by: dad29 at September 17, 2011 01:26 PM (ARZIQ)
This. I think that our workers could make up with productivity, the difference in pay scale for most products.
Posted by: toby928©: Perrykrishna and Urban Terrorist at September 17, 2011 01:27 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 17, 2011 01:29 PM (AZGON)
My understanding is that China has already dumped all of its T-Bills in anticipation of this and is no longer buying U.S. debt. The only people buying U.S. debt now is the fed (mostly) and a few institutional investors who are forced to by their by-laws.
We are monetizing the debt and barking up the uncontrolled inflation tree. If this continues it is only a matter of time before total collapse. Zimbabwe here we come.
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 01:29 PM (M9Ie6)
I usually avoid barrooms with no windows, you can save on band-aids and stitches.
Posted by: ontherocks at September 17, 2011 01:31 PM (HBqDo)
Posted by: Sigmund Freud at September 17, 2011 01:32 PM (McHnx)
Well, yes in the short term. But the Chinese are playing the long game. They screw their own citizens for awhile, but what happens when entire swathes of our industrial base are gone, and the Chinese can dictate prices. If there were no barriers to entry into the market, the Chinese approach would be foolish, but since such barriers exist, I'm not so sure.
Posted by: pep at September 17, 2011 01:33 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure at September 17, 2011 01:34 PM (AZGON)
There is one important exception to this story. A country can buy more goods from another country for an extended period of time if those purchases are balanced by a sale of debt in the form of stocks and bonds. ... China had purchased about $32B in Treasury securities during 2010, more than making up for this trade imbalance, and keeping the value of the Renminbi Yuan artificially low.
It seems that the solution is simple -- that is, uncomplicated, as opposed to easy. Just stop selling debt instruments to China.
The more proximate solution is also simple -- the U.S. government has to get its financial house in order.
Huh. Go figure.
Posted by: FireHorse at September 17, 2011 01:35 PM (F5OMl)
Posted by: FireHorse at September 17, 2011 01:36 PM (F5OMl)
My take on your takes: I'm surprised anyone at all had anything nice to say. Protectionism is a dirty word.
But when they day comes that the US can't manufacture a bullet because all the bullet manufacturers are in enemy territory...
Posted by: Truman North, SOB at September 17, 2011 01:40 PM (I2LwF)
This data was from our own manufacturing counsel.
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 01:42 PM (M9Ie6)
I can recall such turd-polishers as Kudlow whining about trade restrictions we establish (when we do) while simultaneously ignoring the unfair advantages other countries set up for themselves.
I have fond memories of Larry back when I was killing prostitutes. I once saw him stuff a snake up a whore's ass!
Man, those were the days!
Posted by: Patrick Bateman at September 17, 2011 01:43 PM (AF1jB)
Posted by: Founding Fathers at September 17, 2011 01:46 PM (McHnx)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 17, 2011 01:47 PM (5Z/+/)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 17, 2011 01:49 PM (5Z/+/)
>>So even though I have already said how I feel about populist blowhards like Trump spewing no-nothing protectionism boilerplate, I have to come around and tell you this: The position they hold is fundamentally correct, even though the non-logic theyÂ’re using to get there and their message delivery are at the very least fundamentally flawed.
Trump has a particularly egregious fundamental flaw in his coonskin cap.
Posted by: ontherocks at September 17, 2011 01:50 PM (HBqDo)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 17, 2011 01:54 PM (5Z/+/)
Posted by: Oldcat at September 17, 2011 02:05 PM (CN+Qv)
Posted by: Founding Fathers at September 17, 2011 05:46 PM (McHnx)
Actually the founders wanted the government to be funded by direct contributions from the states. See the 3/5 compromise.
When the rise of tariffs meant that the South got political power without paying extra, this raised resentment
Posted by: Oldcat at September 17, 2011 02:07 PM (CN+Qv)
Well, yes in the short term. But the Chinese are playing the long game. They screw their own citizens for awhile, but what happens when entire swathes of our industrial base are gone, and the Chinese can dictate prices. If there were no barriers to entry into the market, the Chinese approach would be foolish, but since such barriers exist, I'm not so sure.
Posted by: pep at September 17, 2011 05:33 PM (6TB1Z)
We lose money on every sale, but make up for it by volume!
Posted by: Oldcat at September 17, 2011 02:08 PM (CN+Qv)
Posted by: toby928©: Perrykrishna and Urban Terrorist at September 17, 2011 05:24 PM (GTbGH)
So if everybody is hurt, that is better?
Posted by: Oldcat at September 17, 2011 02:10 PM (CN+Qv)
http://www.freetradedoesntwork.com/
Posted by: Ron Lewenberg at September 17, 2011 02:10 PM (+jJE6)
........
Well, yes in the short term. But the Chinese are playing the long game. They screw their own citizens for awhile, but what happens when entire swathes of our industrial base are gone, and the Chinese can dictate prices. If there were no barriers to entry into the market, the Chinese approach would be foolish, but since such barriers exist, I'm not so sure.
Posted by: pep
.......
pep has this right here. The Chinese have systematically, over the past 2 decades, stolen whole industries from us.
LCD panels? Could we make one panel here if our lives depended on it? Vic? George Orwell?
Semi-conductors anyone?
They have lured all these industries over there by undercutting our workers and most other costs. We no longer have the expertise or personnel to restart these industries.
The long view...
This is no different than Best Buy coming in and undercutting every single competitor. Now, take a look around.. best but no longer has competitors.. I went there today and everything I wanted was at list price.
Americans are foolish to take this "cheap goods!" offer in the short term. foolish.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at September 17, 2011 02:15 PM (UTq/I)
Posted by: Texan Economist at September 17, 2011 02:16 PM (TC/9F)
Bills are only one of three Treasury securities, the ones with the shortest duration. China's total Treasury holdings is still at record levels. If Operation Torque (Twist II) happens they'll be be profiting handsomely from the the buybacks of longer the dated investments.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at September 17, 2011 02:23 PM (s1vtf)
Have you talked to anyone in the steel-stockpiling business, to see if they can actually get financing for that sort of thing, from the Chinese or anyone else? It's a fantasy scenario.
Posted by: Abdominal Snowman at September 17, 2011 02:24 PM (qITqt)
Posted by: OK216 at September 17, 2011 02:32 PM (YGarY)
Best Buy is kind of a poor analogy. While their numbers are decent, they're suffering along with every other brick-and-mortar company. The internet has changed the retail environment permanently. They're no more immune from changes in business that any other company. Shit changes and, yes, price is part of the equation. Why should the Federal government determine what we supposed to be paying? How is it there job to enforce some kind of quality/price tradeoff for all citizens?
Second, why didn't you just buy your shit online if price was your concern?
Posted by: weft cut-loop at September 17, 2011 02:32 PM (s1vtf)
Over the many years of reaction to that worldview, I've come to believe that a little paranoia now and again is not altogether a bad thing. Our minds have become so open that the candy rolls out the muzzle.
We have a generation of MBA's in charge of our "brands" (formerly known as corporations) who have never lived with a believable threat of world domination by a hostile power. They think that's a movie joke.
Communist China does not allow American companies to build and own factories there. They operate through 51/49 joint ventures, often allowing pretty shadowy ComChin "business entities" access and control to the US parent firm. Industrial and technological espionage is factored in as being simply a cost of doing business with them.
That's one thing when you're dealing with a "mature" technology (bedsheets). It's quite another when you're talking about missile aiming, fighter jet controls, chip design, power generation. Some things deserve to be kept secret -- or at least to require the "competition" (we don't do "enemy" any more) to exert a decent amount of investment in bottom-dredging to find their sources.
We "stole" secrets of textiles and metalworking from England. Let's not pretend that nice modern people don't still play that game. Just because you're convinced that you're boned, you don't have to lay down and assume the position. And you don't have to make it part of your "business plan."
Furthermore, gamers, if they push one big red button in Peiping, you'll wish to Christ you had your mailman back. We can't even keep our comment box up and running.
Posted by: comatus at September 17, 2011 02:33 PM (NA+Ul)
Actually most of the early taxes were excise taxes in addition to funding from the States. It wasn't until The American System kicked off in high gear that the high tariffs started.
The excise taxes on alcohol punished Western Farmers and led to the Whiskey Rebellion. The Tariffs of Abomination punished the South and were one of the major reasons for the war of 1861.
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 02:35 PM (M9Ie6)
Actually there was a plant in CA making those a few years ago. Don't know if they still are after the collapse and CA's hostile buisness environment.
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 02:36 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 17, 2011 02:39 PM (5Z/+/)
Posted by: comatus at September 17, 2011 02:40 PM (NA+Ul)
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 02:43 PM (M9Ie6)
For the longest time, my country didn't have any central planners. Once you're only arguing about what color ties they wear, you need to ask yourself about your definition of "conservative."
Posted by: comatus at September 17, 2011 02:44 PM (NA+Ul)
Posted by: Vic
...........
Vic.. Westinghouse moved it's manufacturing 100% to China years ago.
They still keep a presence here..perhaps design, but all manufacturing is over there.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at September 17, 2011 02:53 PM (UTq/I)
Posted by: Intel
........
Sorry.. didn't mean to imply all of this has move overseas.. it hasn't. But a good portion of semi-conductor manufacture has.
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at September 17, 2011 02:55 PM (UTq/I)
Not true
Westinghouse has changed hands a lot in the last 15 or 20 years. Most of its electrical manufacturing has been sold off to other companies. However its nuke buisness was sold to the French and almost ALL of the fuel manufacturing and heavy nuke stuff is still done in the U.S.
That is what is called Westinghouse Electric now.
Posted by: Vic at September 17, 2011 03:03 PM (M9Ie6)
No. I mean we should make some provision for our workers displaced by cheap foreign labor. As an example, you could have been a conciencous, hard working factory worker in a factory that made American shirts. Well, your job as a shirt maker is gone do to cheap foreign labor, and you may not have easily transferable skills. I think that we, as a country, should make some provision for you. What exactly, I don't know.
Posted by: toby928©: Perrykrishna and Urban Terrorist at September 17, 2011 03:25 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: White RB at September 17, 2011 04:35 PM (LrLv1)
Posted by: Molon Labe at September 17, 2011 05:22 PM (S7K8x)
Posted by: Jordan at September 17, 2011 05:41 PM (qmm8Q)
Posted by: White RB at September 17, 2011 08:28 PM (LrLv1)
Posted by: toby928©: Perrykrishna and Urban Terrorist at September 17, 2011 07:25 PM (GTbGH)
As for government aid to those negatively impacted by trade, Congress passed the Trade Adjustment Act in 1974 and this program was expanded when NAFTA passed in 1993. To help workers more generally, Congress has passed, among other bills, the Manpower Development and Training Act of 1962, the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act of 1973, the Job Training Partnership Act of 1982, and the Workforce Investment Act of 1998. In total, there are now 47 different federal training and employment programs, with a combined annual budget of approximately $18 billion.Posted by: DKCZ at September 17, 2011 11:34 PM (gjsMD)
Posted by: rammer at September 18, 2011 01:42 AM (LZ46k)
All well and good measured only in units of exchange. Much better if humans weren't so interested in food, shelter, yadayada. The thrust of the essay, however, leads to the 'human cost' element, which is becoming a dangerous issue in Red China and in the US.
Your argument works well in a society of robots. Louis XIV found, the hard way, that such was not the case.
To my knowledge, it still isn't.
Posted by: dad29 at September 18, 2011 06:05 AM (ARZIQ)
Posted by: Spanky at September 18, 2011 07:07 AM (rkYJv)
This seems more like the conservative argument against defecit spending. If we do not have deficits China would have a much harder time keeping their currency low. And the effect on their citizens would make it politically unfeasible.
Posted by: theworldisnotenough at September 18, 2011 07:54 AM (PgBI6)
"... assuming our trading partners are actually engaging in free trade."
they aren't, they put hefty import taxes on our goods, while we make agreements to put NONE on theirs, that's not free trade.
i hate tariffs, the only way to get rid of them is to charge everyone else exactly what they charge us.
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 08:13 AM (m6OUa)
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 08:16 AM (m6OUa)
"I have to come around and tell you this: The position they hold is fundamentally correct, even though the non-logic theyÂ’re using to get there and their message delivery are at the very least fundamentally flawed. If we are honest-to-God gonna save our country, our culture, our way of life, then the time for protecting Americans and American industry from predators overseas is now."
Posted by: joe at September 18, 2011 08:57 AM (Anl+W)
Allow me to try one more time.
I have watched companies leave the USA, abandoning their industrial land because they can not sell it given the Superfund liability laws; it must be returned to a pristine state that no industrial buyer requires and some farm land could not even qualify. Futher investment in that land is stupid.
I have watched as firms now use temp labor or outsource jobs because the administrative and liability laws have so amped up the cost of domestic labor that no one wants to deal with it. Forget the actual paycheck; it is the paper and potential liability that matters. And it has corroded cohesive company cultures and destroyed the concept of teamwork.
I have watched some manufacturers remain in US, tripling or quadrupling their productivity, halving their downtime, all while using less space. In EVERY example, they brought in a German engineer because their own engineers are all 65 years old; most smart kids don't want to get dirty now, and so join the ranks of lawyers and bankers and consultants. it's an easier buck to make, partly because there is very little liability.
More generally, if it is a good idea to tariff the Chinese (Canada is our largest export partner by more than 2x), why is it not a good idea to restrict all purchases to folks in your state, or better yet, from your city or high school? Is it because of the color of their skin?
If as protectionists like to say, we don't know how to manufacture anything, it is at least partly because our education and legal systems both denigrate the profession and dissuade it as a concept. Is some offshoring short-sighted? You are damn right; Who taught Aser and Lenovo how to make PCs so they could concentrate on their 'competitive advantages' (most consultants are SO stupid).
But to claim that China is manipulating an 'unfair' advantage on trade is just silly. Like oil exploration, we have constructed our own artificial barriers to manufacturing in this country. Go ask Boeing for the latest evidence. For your basic $200 million or $3 billion manufacturer, the costs and liabilities are huge and not worth the hassle.
In the end, you can not protect producers. Neither can you bad-mouth them, call them immoral and evil, and batter them about the head and shoulders for decades, and then blame the countries they flee to. It is irrational. And every recession, when those workers are finally laid off, smart companies will find alternatives and never hire them back.
Posted by: Jim at September 18, 2011 09:41 AM (YAUyQ)
Posted by: msmulan at September 18, 2011 10:34 AM (Vq4oV)
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 10:37 AM (m6OUa)
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 10:40 AM (m6OUa)
last thing, why the hell do we even have a trade policy called "Most Favored Nation"?
it's inherently unfair to everyone else.
having said that why on Earth would we give it to a nation like China who is our main world wide competitor?
it doesn't make any sense, unless your goal is drive industry from this country to that country.
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 11:56 AM (m6OUa)
if a country tariffs our goods, we tariff theirs at the same rate, do that and very quickly the whole point of tariffs goes away and they end.
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 02:11 PM (m6OUa)
Posted by: shoey at September 18, 2011 02:13 PM (m6OUa)
Posted by: rammer at September 18, 2011 09:44 PM (LZ46k)
Posted by: Federale at September 19, 2011 08:31 AM (NAlbk)
Posted by: msmulan at September 19, 2011 10:42 AM (Vq4oV)
Posted by: msmulan at September 19, 2011 11:10 AM (Vq4oV)
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Posted by: Henry Waxman (Super Genius) at September 17, 2011 01:11 PM (LH6ir)