March 15, 2011
— Slublog Heroism. (NYTimes link, but it's worth it)
A small crew of technicians, braving radiation and fire, became the only people remaining at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station on Tuesday — and perhaps Japan’s last chance of preventing a broader nuclear catastrophe.If you are the praying type, I encourage you to offer up a few words for these brave workers.They crawl through labyrinths of equipment in utter darkness pierced only by their flashlights, listening for periodic explosions as hydrogen gas escaping from crippled reactors ignites on contact with air.
They breathe through uncomfortable respirators or carry heavy oxygen tanks on their backs. They wear white, full-body jumpsuits with snug-fitting hoods that provide scant protection from the invisible radiation sleeting through their bodies.
They are the faceless 50, the unnamed operators who stayed behind. They have volunteered, or been assigned, to pump seawater on dangerously exposed nuclear fuel, already thought to be partly melting and spewing radioactive material, to prevent full meltdowns that could throw thousands of tons of radioactive dust high into the air and imperil millions of their compatriots.
(h/t: Andy Levy)
UPDATE [DrewM.]: Not to take away from the heroic actions of those 50 over the last few days, especially the last 24 hours when they were the only ones there but....the Japanese Government just announced they are pulling the 50 out because the radiation levels are too high.
There's simply too much we don't know/understand but honestly, this can't be a good sign.
The Japanese government is now saying they may/probably will* need the help of the US military to fight the fires.
*I've seen both terms used. Not sure if it's a translation issue or what. Either way...not good.
UPDATE 2: Not so fast? NYT Reporter in Japan:
Contrary to some reports, a core group of workers remain at the Fukushima Daiichi plant. It is not abandoned.
CNN just ran the press conference of the Cabinet Secretary and the translator said they were being withdrawn. Could be a translation problem. Again, there's just a lot of contradictory information out there.
Either way...Slu's suggestion of prayers is still applicable.
UPDATE 3: That NY Times Reporter is the only one who is saying that workers are still on site. This AP story quotes Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano as saying, ""So the workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now," Edano said. "Because of the radiation risk, we are on standby."'
UPDATE 4: Okay, there seems to have been some confusion about whether the plant was "abandoned" or work was "suspended". Here's what the situation seems to be.
Fukushima plant was never abandoned. Workers outside were told to take cover indoors, but never left - TEPCO spox Tanaka Ai.
Between the various groups involved (the government, the utility, news organizations), translations and the conditions they are working under, there's a lot of imprecise information.
About the conditions...there are a number of reports of strong quakes today. Which is just, you know, what they need.
Posted by: Slublog at
06:26 PM
| Comments (508)
Post contains 505 words, total size 4 kb.
Posted by: the drudge report at March 15, 2011 06:27 PM (7H/n0)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 06:29 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: rickl at March 15, 2011 06:30 PM (hZFhS)
Posted by: delmar at March 15, 2011 06:30 PM (d9sox)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 06:31 PM (azrS2)
That paints a scary picture of a scarier situation. I hope they are succesful and that they are safely return to their families.
Real Heroes.
Posted by: garrett at March 15, 2011 06:31 PM (MGC3K)
Posted by: Long Time Lurker at March 15, 2011 06:33 PM (TiURi)
Posted by: USS Diversity at March 15, 2011 06:37 PM (gJNMj)
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 06:37 PM (/Ft4q)
Posted by: Cicero at March 15, 2011 06:37 PM (veJzk)
Done. May God be with them and their families.
Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 15, 2011 06:38 PM (c0A3e)
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 06:39 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: Bill Mitchell at March 15, 2011 06:39 PM (x3Anv)
Posted by: Rebar at March 15, 2011 06:40 PM (uPpYX)
FoxNews just reported ALL workers have been evacuated because radiation is too bad. That means no more water on reactors. Japan is f*cked.
link?
Posted by: Ben at March 15, 2011 06:42 PM (DKV43)
FoxNews just reported ALL workers have been evacuated because radiation is too bad. That means no more water on reactors. Japan is f*cked.
link?
Posted by: Ben at March 15, 2011 10:42 PM (DKV43)
I swear I saw this last night too, I call BS till proven otherwise
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 06:44 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: Mayday at March 15, 2011 06:44 PM (TRgli)
Edano press conference
Containmment vessels at #3 reactor may have been damaged...TEPCO cannot check the smoke at Fukushima because radiation is too high...Water injection into No.4 reactor has yet to begin:...Support from U.S. forces might be necessary to cool reactors...
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 06:45 PM (AX47u)
I'd open my home TONIGHT to any japanese family that needs a place to stay... but our border enforcement dumbasses probably could differentiate between them and a mexican drug dealer.
Fuck.
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 06:47 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 06:47 PM (azrS2)
What can be done? It's not like to can bomb the reactor, you'll just spread the radioactive material.
Isn't burrying them the only option?
Well how do you get enough sand, clay or cement into the area?
Posted by: Ben at March 15, 2011 06:48 PM (DKV43)
Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at March 15, 2011 06:49 PM (NouBW)
It's Crazy Hobo News.
When some drunk down the street is yelling like a banshee, do you take notes and think, "Yeah, maybe so."?
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 10:47 PM (azrS2)
You should probably shut the fuck up now.
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 06:50 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: Bob Hussein Dole at March 15, 2011 06:50 PM (dcrpC)
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 06:51 PM (/Ft4q)
Posted by: torabora at March 15, 2011 06:51 PM (PMoHl)
Isn't burrying them the only option?
Well how do you get enough sand, clay or cement into the area?
Posted by: Ben at March 15, 2011 10:48 PM (DKV43)
They are cooling down slowly, just need some time and lots of water and power would be a huge help. Check out bravenewclimate.com they have a decent writeup of what happened and whats next.
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 06:52 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: SJR2 at March 15, 2011 06:52 PM (oCbCP)
What can be done? It's not like to can bomb the reactor, you'll just spread the radioactive material.
Isn't burrying them the only option?
Well how do you get enough sand, clay or cement into the area?
Posted by: Ben at March 15, 2011 10:48 PM
Edano just said that dispersing sea water from a helicopter to cool them was too risky
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 06:53 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 06:53 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 06:53 PM (x3YFz)
Why doesn't Bush help these people !!!!
Posted by: Shep Smith-Cooper at March 15, 2011 10:53 PM (vdfwz)
^^^
The above probably brought to you by some dumbass jihadi twat.
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 06:55 PM (x3YFz)
Shep for laughs, Monty to find out how bad things really are
Posted by: kbdabear at March 15, 2011 06:55 PM (vdfwz)
I'm sorry to learn that the radiation levels are not deemed safe. Prayers for the Japanese people, our military, and the countless involved in humanitarian efforts.
Posted by: Y-not at March 15, 2011 06:56 PM (pW2o8)
Posted by: Jack Cafferty, CNN Katrina genius at March 15, 2011 06:56 PM (vdfwz)
Posted by: ChristyBlinky at March 15, 2011 06:57 PM (oTjfX)
this is O/T: but on some level relevant. Batchelor had a guest on who said the administration did not know what the saudis were doing until they saw it on the news.
How arrogant and idsrespectful
Posted by: curious at March 15, 2011 06:57 PM (k1rwm)
Posted by: troyriser at March 15, 2011 06:57 PM (mU1zA)
Posted by: torabora at March 15, 2011 10:51 PM (PMoHl)
There's a reason video games still treat/exploit that are as nuclear wasteland.
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 06:58 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: Angela at March 15, 2011 06:58 PM (NsLYI)
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 10:53 PM (x3YFz)
The nuke talk is incredibly informative...they are definitely onboard the warming train, but big support of nuke power...it makes no sense.
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 06:59 PM (FIDMq)
The best thing about my stint in the Service was the opportunity it gave me to meet truly brave men, genuine, real-deal heroes. I was in the Airborne Infantry, the 82nd, so such men--Vietnam veterans for the most part--were almost commonplace at the time. Being brave, I learned, doesn't mean being fearless. Being brave means keeping a clear head and doing the right thing at the right time.
These 50 nameless operators deserve your prayers, if you're the praying kind. In the end, it's all about love, as schmaltzy and cornball as it sounds. 'Greater love has no man than he who gives his life for his brother.'
Posted by: troyriser at March 15, 2011 10:57 PM (mU1zA)
hooah
Posted by: tangonine at March 15, 2011 06:59 PM (x3YFz)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:01 PM (qIHlG)
John 15:13
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Or for millions of friends in this case.
Posted by: Average Jen at March 15, 2011 07:02 PM (DBr05)
Posted by: kbdabear at March 15, 2011 07:03 PM (vdfwz)
Posted by: andycanuck at March 15, 2011 07:03 PM (7H/n0)
Posted by: ChristyBlinky at March 15, 2011 07:06 PM (oTjfX)
Posted by: mghorning at March 15, 2011 07:07 PM (gbwsL)
Posted by: rickl at March 15, 2011 07:12 PM (hZFhS)
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 07:13 PM (FIDMq)
I really hope the doomsayers are exaggerating.
Posted by: Johnny at March 15, 2011 07:14 PM (mhmc7)
Posted by: Dr. Heinz Doofensmirtz at March 15, 2011 07:14 PM (PzDdu)
Posted by: Velociman at March 15, 2011 07:14 PM (BiFjD)
Maybe it's time to send in the Russians.
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 11:13 PM (/Ft4q)
Update up top says otherwise
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 07:14 PM (FIDMq)
main gate post 6
1000 810.3uSv
1010 908.5uSv
1020 2399uSv
1030 ?? 6400uSv
1045 2300uSv
1055 2900uSv
1100 3391uSv
reactor 3 pressure stable
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:17 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Johnny at March 15, 2011 07:20 PM (mhmc7)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:19 PM (ZbLJZ)
Thanks, not sure if you know how these plants operate, but how are they getting the water into the reactors? Do they have to manually switch hoses around?
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 07:20 PM (FIDMq)
You aren't helping.
Posted by: Edward R. Fucking Murrow. at March 15, 2011 07:20 PM (MWXXs)
Posted by: kbdabear at March 15, 2011 07:20 PM (vdfwz)
Posted by: Chris Matthews at March 15, 2011 07:21 PM (cUNcx)
Posted by: Nemo from Erewon at March 15, 2011 07:22 PM (CWqmt)
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 07:22 PM (/Ft4q)
I really hope the doomsayers are exaggerating.
Posted by: Johnny at March 15, 2011 11:14 PM
I think much of the problem is the way the Japanese communicate and handle incidents. And don't forget much of what we are getting is filtered through TEPCO. I pointed out to someone that we may or may not have reason to trust TEPCO, especially in the beginning of this. TEPCO has had problems and safety issues in the past. After all, would we accept at face value what Jeffrey Immelt and GE said if they were involved in this type of incident? All we can do is make educated speculation based on the information we get.
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 07:22 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: King Barack at March 15, 2011 07:23 PM (EL+OC)
I don't think that I believe everyone has been evacuated. Unless there's some plan in place to continue cooling the reactors, or they've given up and are now running for the hills, then there should still be a skeleton crew onsite. I think if it were either of the former options then SOMEONE would have said so, and it wouldn't be lost in the translation. "It's a lost cause," is a farily straightforward statement.
Does anyone have a link to a streaming video of the TEPCO presser? I don't speak Japanese, but I'd like to see it for myself to get a feel for the tone. The unfortunate thing with the Japanese, and I mean this with all due respect, is that they apologize for EVERYTHING. On one hand it's noble, but on the other it makes it damn difficult to figure out what the hell they're apologizing for. "Are you apologizing because we're all going to die from radiation poisoning? Or are you apologizing because you don't have any good news for us? Or are you apologizing because you haven't been able to get us the good news in a mroe timely manner?" It's a frustrating clash of cultures, I'm afraid.
Posted by: MWR at March 15, 2011 07:25 PM (CA2NO)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:26 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:27 PM (ZbLJZ)
http://tinyurl.com/4lccgay
Posted by: Nemo from Erewon at March 15, 2011 11:22 PM
Those are the Daini Units not the Daiichi which is where the problems are. A little confusing.
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 07:27 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: Shillery at March 15, 2011 07:27 PM (N2yhW)
Having actually WORKED for years at a nuclear power plant here in California, I can tell you that the people there are dedicated and responsible. They believe in what they are doing and take personal responsibility. If they didn't they would be weeded out.
Probably what is happening is that they are rotating crews in and out. That way they spread the dose so no one gets acute radiation syndrome. US standards are up to 25 REM to save the plant and 125 REM to save life. Normal maximum is 5 REM per year but anyone over 1 REM gets investigated and rotated. Normal non-rad worker background is 0.1 to 0.4 REM per year. At 125 REM, you're likely to get sick, puke, and feel bad for a month or more. At 500 REM, you've got 50/50 odds of dying.
I once asked a bunch of operators if they would stay at their posts if it meant getting radiation sickness. They said "Sure, but I want the plant manager right beside me." It's called leading from the front. I know a few TEPCO guys and I would have hated to have to try to push them off Gaudacanal or Iwo Jima.
I bet they have more volunteers than they know what to do with. It would be that way in the US nuclear industry.
When I taught nuclear safety principles at our plant, I used to joke "Does everyone have their 'personal nuclear safety device handy?'" They would ask what that was. I would then deliver the punch line - "Your car keys."
Posted by: Whitehall at March 15, 2011 07:29 PM (OuiPG)
Curious,
I enjoy your posts and your middle-of-the-road perspective, but...
Please stop posting what John Batchelor says every freaking night! We get it, you listen to him. You like him. You think he is smart.
We get it. Please, please stop.
Posted by: Log Cabin at March 15, 2011 07:31 PM (0I193)
It has been several days since the reactors were shut down and the decay heat should be considerably lower.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:31 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: rickl at March 15, 2011 07:31 PM (hZFhS)
Japanese evacuate workers at much lower total doses than everyone else on the planet.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:32 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: The "The Rent is Too DAMN High!" Guy at March 15, 2011 07:35 PM (6fER6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:35 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:37 PM (qIHlG)
Dai-ni is often called Fukushima II
They are very close, on opposite ends of the same town.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:38 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Nemo from Erewon at March 15, 2011 07:38 PM (CWqmt)
Posted by: Ken Royall at March 15, 2011 07:40 PM (9zzk+)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:41 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Druid at March 15, 2011 07:42 PM (RnujI)
Man would I love to see them get some freakin power, that would be such help at this point
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 07:42 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: Druid at March 15, 2011 11:42 PM (RnujI)
I wondered about that, if they ingested water are they trashed? I would almost guess yes
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 15, 2011 07:44 PM (FIDMq)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:44 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: King Barack at March 15, 2011 07:46 PM (EL+OC)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:47 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:48 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 07:51 PM (ZbLJZ)
I say we take off and nuke the entire Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Posted by: I. Ron Eripley at March 15, 2011 07:51 PM (swuwV)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:47 PM (ZbLJZ)
On the lower right of the pic it looks like two fuel oil tanks are now gone.
Posted by: Barbarian at March 15, 2011 07:51 PM (EL+OC)
Tanks come on the back of a truck ... yellow pages...More than that, Army has a Prime Power unit in Hawaii if they needed 1MW generators.
That is why I say "what do I know".
If the engines sucked water - that takes a couple of hours to fix.
If the tanks were contaminated with water - that is why they used have drains at the bottom.
Posted by: Druid at March 15, 2011 07:53 PM (RnujI)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 07:53 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: specialkayel at March 15, 2011 07:53 PM (xAq1k)
Posted by: tmi3rd at March 15, 2011 07:53 PM (WRtsc)
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 07:54 PM (6Lzbz)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 07:54 PM (qIHlG)
This is hydrogen, not tetrahydrazine. It doesn't ignite on contact with air.
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at March 15, 2011 07:55 PM (tvs2p)
Posted by: tmi3rd at March 15, 2011 07:58 PM (WRtsc)
Workers ordered to leave the Fukushima plant have been allowed back after radiation levels fell, the Japan nuclear agency said.
Pumping of seawater at reactors at No. 1, 2 and 3 was proceeding smoothly, it said.
(Reuters)
Posted by: Guttermouth at March 15, 2011 08:00 PM (wK3wa)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 08:01 PM (azrS2)
Apparently they are going to send crews back in for pumping water again.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:05 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:08 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 08:09 PM (azrS2)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 08:11 PM (qIHlG)
I'm not buying this. Japanese don't abandon ANYTHING in the face of death, especially if they know hundreds of thousands/millions of their countrymen will die if they don't do their damndest.
ISSHO KENMEI GAMBATTE KURO!!
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 08:11 PM (CfQ+e)
That in itself is a fairly good sign because that would imply that the reactors have stabilized to the point where people can leave for a while ... or that it is now longer between pumping operations as the level of decay heat declines.
Also, I miscalculated. Japanese normal maximum allowable exposure might be 20% of the international standard, not 25%. I calculate that from the following statement:
"Japanese government has increased the maximum allowable exposure by 2.5 times its previous allowed exposure limit. The new limit is still 1/2 of the international exposure limit." That would imply that the international limit is 5x the Japanese limit.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:18 PM (ZbLJZ)
A Japanese commenter said something interesting in reference to the apology. He said it was the first time he had ever heard TEPCO apologize publicly for anything.
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 08:18 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:51 PM (ZbLJZ)
Sprinkling Borat on the newclear fyre will work on one of these critters.
Posted by: torabora at March 15, 2011 08:19 PM (PMoHl)
Posted by: Country is Great thanks to me at March 15, 2011 08:20 PM (crSwB)
Posted by: Patrick at March 15, 2011 08:21 PM (vw0I1)
Remember: a day ago it was a live reactor, fully loaded with fissionable fuel, that was supposed to pop.
Now it's a reactor with NO fuel in its core, but with SPENT fuel in storage tanks, that presents us with the end of the world.
Gimme a break!
************************************
OH I AM SOOOO FUCKING GLAD I READ slublog's/Ace's easily-disavoved surrogate's UPDATES TO THE 4TH POWER!!! OTHERWISE I MIGHT HAVE BELIEVED HIS NONSENSE THROUGH THE 3RD ITERATION.
nevermind, slublog. xoxo Emily L.
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 08:21 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: B+rry Ob+owmao at March 15, 2011 08:22 PM (PMoHl)
Posted by: Papa Editor at March 15, 2011 08:24 PM (YX6i/)
Posted by: Fuck You Shima #1 at March 15, 2011 08:25 PM (eMjOY)
Posted by: Reactor #3 at March 16, 2011 12:24 AM (PMoHl)
You're doing it wrong.
Posted by: Redneck at March 15, 2011 08:27 PM (YX6i/)
The link above is a good nuke energy site. Good info.
Posted by: Joe at March 15, 2011 08:27 PM (AxdeT)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 08:28 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:29 PM (ZbLJZ)
@129
Wow, I didn't realize it was that cold. I was talking about steam from a busted pipe.
But yeah, I'm really at a loss for words right now. Don't know how they are able to run these reactors with that much damage. These guys have been nothing short of impressive so far.
Posted by: Guttermouth at March 15, 2011 08:30 PM (wK3wa)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:31 PM (ZbLJZ)
I swear, it's like Charlie Chaplin has a finger stuck in every hole in the dam, and the nuke advocates here are like, "See, Charlie has everything under control. Everything's fine. And go seal yourself inside your home as a precaution. That's not abnormal. It's in our action plan."
Posted by: KB at March 15, 2011 08:31 PM (7FgWm)
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 08:32 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:33 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 08:33 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:34 PM (0GFWk)
It is actually Japanese law. They have codified in law how to respond to nuclear accidents. They are required by law to evacuate the areas you see according to the severity level of the incident.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:35 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: eman: Japanese Babe Rescue Team at March 15, 2011 08:35 PM (azrS2)
I am going to write a letter to TEPCO expressing my respect and admiration for the people working at that site.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:37 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:37 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Rodent at March 15, 2011 08:38 PM (1pJbs)
Posted by: sifty at March 15, 2011 08:39 PM (jq/yL)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:39 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:39 PM (0GFWk)
OH I AM SOOOO FUCKING GLAD I READ slublog's/Ace's easily-disavoved surrogate's UPDATES TO THE 4TH POWER!!! OTHERWISE I MIGHT HAVE BELIEVED HIS NONSENSE THROUGH THE 3RD ITERATION.
nevermind, slublog. xoxo Emily L.
Posted by: effinayright at March 16, 2011 12:21 AM
You know...I am just a little tired of all of this, both the posters here who claim to know everything even though they are only educationally speculating based on the information, some of it contradictaory, from TEPCO and the government. We're told this or that site is not good for information but others are. And this or that person doesn't know what they're talking about but others do. So
And I'm also tired of listeningto /reading the hemming and hawing we've been getting from TEPCO. Screw the fact they're Japanese and aren't as up front as we are. The press conferences wouldn't cut it here, it's a ridiculous display. Anyone here who can say for certain they know what is going on? I thought not. So if Ace or any unworthy not so knowledgable person wants to speculate...WTF is the difference?! And I didn't have to use caps.
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 08:41 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:41 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: sifty at March 15, 2011 08:43 PM (jq/yL)
The decay heat should be declining considerably by now compared to what it was on Saturday.
They are getting to a point where the spent rods in #4 are the greatest threat. And that is starting to scare me. Imagine if the water boils away in that pool. If those fuel rods get hot enough to melt the rack that is holding them and they all fall to the bottom of that pool, it could be a mess.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:43 PM (ZbLJZ)
KB, if you had any facts to report, you would give them instead of flinging snot.
FACT: the Japanese themselves are NOT panicking.
btw: yokosonews is currently bullshitting right now, not panicking.
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 08:44 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 08:45 PM (ZbLJZ)
"You know...I am just a little tired of all of this, both the posters here who claim to know everything even though they are only educationally speculating based on the information, some of it contradictaory, from TEPCO and the government. We're told this or that site is not good for information but others are. And this or that person doesn't know what they're talking about but others do."
What, like the nuke advocates who a few days ago said we'd all be eating ham sandwiches off the top of the reactor vessels by now?
Posted by: KB at March 15, 2011 08:45 PM (7FgWm)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:45 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: comatus at March 15, 2011 08:45 PM (W5ilH)
The Sons of Martha The Sons of Mary seldom bother, for they have inherited that good part;
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary's Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.
It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock.
It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that the
switches lock.
It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care to embark
and entrain,
Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by land and main.
They say to mountains, 'Be ye removed'. They say to the lesser floods,
'Be dry'.
Under their rods are the rocks reproved - they are not afraid of that
which is high.
Then do the hill-tops shake to the summit - then is the bed of the deep
laid bare,
That the Sons of Mary may overcome it, pleasantly sleeping and unaware.
They finger death at their gloves' end where they piece and re-piece the
living wires.
He rears against the gates they tend: they feed him hungry behind their
fires.
Early at dawn, ere men see clear, they stumble into his terrible stall,
And hale him forth like a haltered steer, and goad and turn him till
evenfall.
To these from birth is Belief forbidden; from these till death is Relief
afar.
They are concerned with matter hidden - under the earthline their altars are;
The secret fountains to follow up, waters withdrawn to restore to the mouth,
And gather the floods as in a cup, and pour them again at a city drouth.
They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the
nuts work loose.
They do not teach that His Pity allows them to leave their work when they
damn-well choose.
As in the thronged and the lighted ways, so in the dark and the desert
they stand.
Wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's days may be long
in the land.
Raise ye the stone or cleave the wood to make a path more fair or flat:
Lo, it is black already with blood some Son of Martha spilled for that:
Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need.
And the Sons of Mary smile and are blessed - they know the angels are on
their side.
They know in them is the Grace confessed, and for them are the Mercies
multiplied.
They sit at the Feet - they hear the Word - they see how truly the
Promise Runs:
They have cast their burden upon the Lord, and - the Lord He lays it on
Martha's Sons.
Rudyard Kipling
Posted by: Popcorn at March 15, 2011 08:46 PM (OOehk)
Only problem is, 45 years after the crisis is resolved, they'll find two of them still hiding out in the pipes, refusing to accept that the it's over.
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at March 15, 2011 08:47 PM (2xfbm)
Posted by: Reactor #3 at March 15, 2011 08:49 PM (PMoHl)
My wife asked me why I have the an Alice pack with MRE's, BDU's, H-harness, gloves, cover, socks and boots, plus an over coat. I said, turn on the news. Now, where is your stuff I got you sweetie? She said she doesn't like BDU's, and I said you will if you have to stay outside for any length of time.
G-d's speed to all those folks with no fire, or food tonight in Japan.
Posted by: Leatherneck at March 15, 2011 08:49 PM (alRN7)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 08:49 PM (qIHlG)
Deanna, you'll find CAPS on Ace, including his headlines, all the time.
And if you think knocking back crazy and unsupported assertions, imtimating the immediate horrible deaths of millions, not worthy of caps, welll: FUCK YOU, you prissy little scrunt.
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 08:49 PM (CfQ+e)
UPDATE: Now (0316 UTC) TEPCO is saying 6.4 millisieverts/hour, and that the 1000 millisievert/hour number quoted by Edamo is incorrect. That would only be 0.64 rem/hour. It would therefore take about 8 hours to get to the 5 rem annual occupational exposure limit.
But the AP is still quoting the 1000 millisievert/hour number.
And it does appear that the smoke was steam.
Posted by: Guttermouth at March 15, 2011 08:50 PM (wK3wa)
Posted by: rickl at March 15, 2011 08:54 PM (hZFhS)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:54 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: comatus at March 15, 2011 08:55 PM (W5ilH)
You talking to me?
Posted by: California voter at March 15, 2011 08:55 PM (vdfwz)
Deanna, you'll find CAPS on Ace, including his headlines, all the time.
And if you think knocking back crazy and unsupported assertions, imtimating the immediate horrible deaths of millions, not worthy of caps, welll: FUCK YOU, you prissy little scrunt.
Posted by: effinayright at March 16, 2011 12:49 AM
Yeah I'm impressed. /s But you are still a sanctimonious jerk. By the way I have friends in Japan... so fuck off.
Nothing you or anyone has said here has proven anything. The pretense of calmness and knowledge isn't convincing anyone when they contradict each other. There are a very few exceptions, crosspatch being one. But many others are really no better than those you criticize. Is it worse to scream fire or say... never mind everything is fine?
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 08:55 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 08:56 PM (0GFWk)
@174 You are free to get lost KB. Feel free to go buy yourself some potassium iodide or go crack open a bottle of liquor and go out whoring to celebrate your last night on earth.
If you truly were reading past threads you would know that it is recognized and discussed that this is beyond design basis accident territory.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 15, 2011 08:56 PM (pyWwh)
My local news station told me to after I finished watching Glee
Posted by: California voter at March 15, 2011 08:58 PM (vdfwz)
Posted by: curious at March 15, 2011 08:59 PM (k1rwm)
Posted by: Anachronda at March 15, 2011 09:00 PM (6fER6)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 15, 2011 09:00 PM (Hsbnu)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:00 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: rdbrewer at March 16, 2011 01:00 AM
Thanks. They have some good info but it's good to know where they're coming from. Even the Japanese sites like Kyodo have a bias. And add to that the translation aspect...
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 09:02 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:02 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:02 AM (qIHlG)
thank you. even with me trying to tell google I was spelling it phonetically they weren't giving it to me.
Posted by: curious at March 15, 2011 09:05 PM (k1rwm)
Deanna: damatte kure! Shinde wabite kuro! Ima!
I not only have "friends in Japan", I used to live there, and I spoke "almost-fluent" Japanese. Enough to make a lot of money doing business with the Japanese.
No one here is trying to "prove"anything -- only that the American press is making a complete mess when reporting this.
In the midst of a nuclear crisis, nothing is "fine", but anyone with a modicum of intelligence about engineering, especially nuclear engineering, knows that news reports from lay reporters with no science/technical background [or laymen such as YOU????] are to be treated with immense suspicion.
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 09:06 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 09:06 PM (ZbLJZ)
Valiantly the young eagles dash forth to the attack,
along a path from which there can never be a homecoming.
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at March 15, 2011 09:07 PM (2xfbm)
200 But it this stuff is really dangerous then why is it ok for Americans to risk their lives? I literally heard the french are on the run
There's yer answer....right there.
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 09:07 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:09 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: rickl at March 15, 2011 09:10 PM (hZFhS)
France has urged its nationals living in Tokyo to leave the country or head to southern Japan due to the risk of nuclear radiation.
The French embassy in Tokyo said its advisory applied with immediate effect to those French nationals who were not obliged to remain in the city.
It said it had asked Air France to mobilise planes currently in Asia
to evacuate French citizens, and two were already on their way.
Posted by: We Surrender at March 15, 2011 09:11 PM (qIHlG)
It's all you've got left....
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at March 15, 2011 09:14 PM (2xfbm)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:15 PM (0GFWk)
I"t said it had asked Air France to mobilise planes currently in Asia to evacuate French citizens, and two were already on their way. "
I'm told Air France pilots undergo training as to how to steer their planes and raise their hands in surrender at the same time.
Their instructors are former Alitalia pilots.
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 09:16 PM (CfQ+e)
In the midst of a nuclear crisis, nothing is "fine", but anyone with a modicum of intelligence about engineering, especially nuclear engineering, knows that news reports from lay reporters with no science/technical background [or laymen such as YOU????] are to be treated with immense suspicion.
Posted by: effinayright at March 16, 2011 01:06 AM
I haven't been there in a few years. But I did hear from them, well their family here, and they are okay. That said, most of the laymen are simply quoting what they read or hear from news sources or in my case TEPCO and the government. And that is pretty much all anyone has to go on. I have been skeptical of all of it, knowing TEPCO's past record. What I dislike is the way some people replied to posters who were asking a question or quoting what they read or heard. I know too many techs and scientists who have differing opinions on the same issues not to take what they say with some skepticism too. I wasn't singly you out, I am just really tired of it when there are suffering people and I feel a company is screwing up or at least possibly screwed up.(Again past record.) Have a good one.
Posted by: Deanna at March 15, 2011 09:16 PM (AX47u)
Posted by: The Rich at March 15, 2011 09:18 PM (PMoHl)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:18 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:21 PM (0GFWk)
@200 The navy can probably bring some impressive hardware given time. As far as whom else they might call upon? Well US utilities with BWRs of similar vintage can provide technical assistance. GE will already be doing so.
As far as direct help in stabalization efforts no one is better suited than the operators themselves.
Why do you think the US military personnel are going to be take inordinate risks to their lives? They are primarily there for humanitarian relief efforts.
The one mission I could see them assisting with is heliborne fire supression but that had been ruled out earlier today by authorities.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 15, 2011 09:21 PM (pyWwh)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:22 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Satan at March 16, 2011 01:20 AM (PMoHl)
Hey fuck you. What am I, chopped liver?
Posted by: Mohammed Atta at March 15, 2011 09:24 PM (uqJo6)
Posted by: joeindc44 at March 15, 2011 09:24 PM (Du09Y)
The kind of helo lift capability we have would be handy for moving big generators and other heavy to the site quickly.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:25 PM (QgI7g)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:25 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 15, 2011 09:26 PM (bAySe)
@208 I don't think it is a "story". We talked about that last night.
Backfits were required on US early vintage BWRs. Not sure if these mods were done on these Fukushima units.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 15, 2011 09:27 PM (pyWwh)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:29 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: We Surrender at March 15, 2011 09:30 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:31 PM (0GFWk)
Posted by: We Surrender at March 15, 2011 09:31 PM (qIHlG)
What's the point? Seems like a very expensive backdrop.
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 15, 2011 09:33 PM (bAySe)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:35 PM (0GFWk)
What I don't understand is why there wasn't a single diesel generator in all of
Japan that couldn't have been airlifted to the site once it was discovered the onsite generators were nonfunctional.
The Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force deploys the Sikorsky CH53E Super Stallion (10 in service) which has an external lift capacity of 32,000 lbs.
A 1000 kVA Caterpillar diesel generator weighs 18,000 lbs. A 1500 kVA Caterpillar diesel generator weighs 28,000 lbs.
It's bad enough that they couldn't possibly envision a tsunami damaging ground level generators at a nuclear power plant situated on the shore of an ocean facing a major subduction fault. It's really criminal that they couldn't get replacements to the site quickly.
(I am assuming, as has been reported, that it was strictly a lack of power to run the cooling pumps that precipitated the current disastrous circumstances.)
Posted by: TobyTucker at March 15, 2011 09:35 PM (2Z6tq)
#223 Carter was a young wippersnapper Navy lieutenant when he was involved in the Chalk River (Ontario) nuke meltdown. He went into the hot reactor to effect repairs.
I'd say he'd want Uncle Sam to help out.
I'm no fan of the fella but he had it going on when he was young.
Posted by: torabora at March 15, 2011 09:36 PM (PMoHl)
Japan that couldn't have been airlifted to the site once it was discovered the onsite generators were nonfunctional.
According to the NYT the tsunami submerged the wiring closet. So even after they got generators to the site they couldn't hook them in.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:37 PM (QgI7g)
@227 Nevergiveup US naval personnel simply aren't qualified to do anything on those reactors.
@226 Are Army aviation units still operating Chinooks?
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 15, 2011 09:37 PM (pyWwh)
What's the point? Seems like a very expensive backdrop.
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 16, 2011 01:33 AM (bAySe)
You remember Geraldo reporting from Afganistan Pakistan?
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:39 PM (QgI7g)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:42 PM (0GFWk)
As weird and alien as I find the Japanese on some cultural levels, what with their anime and tentacle pron and historical brutality and all, it just would not be nearly as good a planet to live on without them.
Shine on, you crazy diamonds!
Posted by: Deety at March 15, 2011 09:43 PM (Jb3+B)
Posted by: nevergiveup at March 15, 2011 09:44 PM (0GFWk)
@227 Nevergiveup US naval personnel simply aren't qualified to do anything on those reactors.
@226 Are Army aviation units still operating Chinooks?
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 16, 2011 01:37 AM (pyWwh)
I believe they're being used in A-stan. If not Chinooks we've got Seahawks.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:44 PM (QgI7g)
They designed for a 7 meter tsunami and got a 7.5 meter tsunami ... infinitely more powerful when you figure ... 7 meter gets stopped, 7.5 meter doesn't.
You have people working there who are human beings. They have quite possibly lose their own homes, family, and/or friends. They have personally experienced this earthquake and tsunami. They have been working around the clock. This isn't due to anyone's fuck up, this is a disaster. They have no metrology. The instrumentation is dead or broken or not powered. The power cables are screwed (explosion at unit 3 apparently took out power to pumps at unit 2, for example).
It is real freaking easy for us to sit here in our comfy warm homes and armchair quarterback what they are doing and nit-pick and critique, but these guys are in every bit of a battle as the guys were at the battle of the bulge. They are fighting to keep their family, friends, and neighbors from getting sick.
The news media is completely overlooking the human aspect of this story and how we have a group of heroes here who are flying these reactors in a condition nobody has ever seen before under conditions nobody has every endured before.
Give em a break.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 09:44 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 09:46 PM (ZbLJZ)
I think there were some Russians who endured these kind of conditions. Briefly.
But yeah. Could you imagine losing touch with your family and having to bath your 'nads in high-energy particles when they might be needing your assistance?
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:48 PM (QgI7g)
Posted by: Hous Bin Pharteen at March 15, 2011 09:48 PM (V+/pV)
Yo.
Posted by: One Gurkha with a kukri and a lead apron at March 16, 2011 01:51 AM (2xfbm)
We'll give you a call when the bandits show up.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:52 PM (QgI7g)
Ever read On the Beach?
Posted by: Global Wind Patterns at March 15, 2011 09:54 PM (2xfbm)
Amazing...
While watching the NHK english stream...
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
... I heard a reporter on the scene in Minamisanriku(?) say that the view of the city devastation is already changing as crews are removing piles of debris. In the background you could see a dump truck driving down a cleared road. The area did seem alot clearer than the "landfill" look the tsunami caused. I'm just amazed that it has not even been a week and they are already onto cleanup.
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 15, 2011 09:55 PM (bAySe)
Considering the nature of the emergency, you'd think they could jury-rig something to get the pumps running, if nothing else. I've seen some pretty hairy lash-ups in my time and if this isn't a situation where you throw the codebook out the window, I don't know what is.
Posted by: TobyTucker at March 15, 2011 09:56 PM (2Z6tq)
Probably looks better than Haiti already. It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't wait for someone else to do it.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:56 PM (QgI7g)
Considering the nature of the emergency, you'd think they could jury-rig something to get the pumps running, if nothing else. I've seen some pretty hairy lash-ups in my time and if this isn't a situation where you throw the codebook out the window, I don't know what is.
Posted by: TobyTucker at March 16, 2011 01:56 AM (2Z6tq)
I've been thinking the same thing, to be honest. At one point they had 800 people there before they pulled most of them out. Maybe that's what they other 750 were trying to put together, and all that's left is the people on the hoses.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 09:59 PM (QgI7g)
Probably looks better than Haiti already. It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't wait for someone else to do it.
+1
Posted by: CanaDave at March 15, 2011 10:00 PM (unlT9)
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 16, 2011 01:56 AM (QgI7g) I was at a meeting with Chinese last night, and one of them took the time to comment that they (Chinese) had a lot to learn about how civilized the Japanese have been about the entire affair and recovery. For this coworker to say that, she was really impressed. Despite everything and all of the demographic struggles, Japan will recover and actually be stronger after they pull themselves out of this mess. I have gained a lot of respect for the Japanese in the last couple of days.
Posted by: In Exile at March 15, 2011 10:02 PM (5HVYj)
---
Yup. I dunno if its just me and my obsessive clean-freak habits, but everytime I see shots of a debris filled city I get this urge to be there to pick up the trash myself, one square yard at a time.
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 15, 2011 10:02 PM (bAySe)
They had a segment to that effect on BBC World News today. There were some young people quoted pointing out how much better the Japanese have behaved than the Chinese did after their earthquake.
Then there was an older guy who said "I think the Japanese should be wiped out." So there's that.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 10:04 PM (QgI7g)
I can see that Deanna decided to stop her dumb arguments and revert to her other nick "buy cheap windows 7 key".
Nice save!!!
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 10:07 PM (CfQ+e)
@ace's liver
Yeah, the old guy's response is pretty normal. That is why I was SHOCKED to hear a coworker say what she did about the Japanese. Granted, she works for a multinational corporation.
Posted by: In Exile at March 15, 2011 10:08 PM (5HVYj)
Either me or Anderson Cooper but I suspect that he might back down.
Sorry Grandma.
I don't mean to offend your sensibilities and all but that "handsome looking, polite young man from Fox News" has been fucking asking for a pop in the snout for almost a decade by my count.
I've remained silent 'till now mostly out of deference to you even through the Katrina coverage but enough is enough, already!
P.S. Thanx for the Birthday Card! Woodstock and Snoopy are always funny to me! I am going to use your $$ towards building a better computer system like my friends buzzion and NC Ref. I am still practicing the piano but probably not as much as I should. I really like Bach an awful lot, though. Did you like him too when you were a piano player?
Posted by: Deety is going to kick Shep's ass at March 15, 2011 10:08 PM (Jb3+B)
Haiti? How about New Orleans? No looting or gang bangs? Japan makes us look bad too. Well at least democratic countroled cities.
I wonder if the current rainy season made the golf courses muddy?
Posted by: Hous Bin Pharteen at March 15, 2011 10:08 PM (V+/pV)
I've been thinking the same thing, to be honest. At one point they had 800 people there before they pulled most of them out. Maybe that's what they other 750 were trying to put together, and all that's left is the people on the hoses.
Yeah, them class-ridden Japanese: they always let the little people do the dirty work, take the fall!!
YOU IGNORANT FUCKS!!!
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 10:10 PM (CfQ+e)
When he gets done making hysterical shit up "Katrina mode", Shep will be heading straight into Tokyo' s seamiest regions to get himself a nice...warm... slurpy.
If you know what I mean...
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 10:15 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 10:16 PM (ZbLJZ)
All over the pacific ring of fire they have had trouble, but not california. It must be Charlie Sheen mind power. Winning!!!
Posted by: Hous Bin Pharteen at March 15, 2011 10:16 PM (V+/pV)
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 15, 2011 10:17 PM (bAySe)
Damn. Consider my dreams officially haunted.
Posted by: Methos at March 15, 2011 10:18 PM (uqJo6)
Military officers are primarily engineers. It wouldn't take one long to figure out "hey, we can blast that wall down with this water cannon and flood that pool"
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 10:19 PM (ZbLJZ)
Urgent to Ace and other bedwetting fuckwits on this site: the NIKKEI is up.
Call your stock brokers! save yourselves while you can!
(call your Credibility Brokers, while you're at it.)
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 10:22 PM (CfQ+e)
"Military officers are primarily engineers."
Your ass is GENIUS, sir!!
AS IF Japanese nuclear engineers are not....engineers.
No wait!! Japanese are only talented for working with their hands!
Posted by: effinayright at March 15, 2011 10:25 PM (CfQ+e)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 10:26 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 10:29 PM (/Ft4q)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 10:29 PM (qIHlG)
I posted the number in another one of the threads last night.
I think it was under 400 fuel rods but more than 300.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 10:34 PM (ZbLJZ)
www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/6-1_powerpoint.pdf
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 10:47 PM (/Ft4q)
"The Fukushima Daiichi plant has seven pools dedicated to spent fuel rods. These are located at the top of six reactor buildings – or were until explosions and fires ravaged the plant. On the ground level there is a common pool in a separate building that was critical damaged by the tsunami. Each reactor building pool holds 3,450 fuel rod assemblies and the common pool holds 6,291 fuel rod assemblies. Each assembly holds sixty-three fuel rods. In short, the Fukushima Daiichi plant contains over 600,000 spent fuel rods – a massive amount of radiation that will soon be released into the atmosphere."
http://tinyurl.com/5wxv2v7
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 10:50 PM (6Lzbz)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 10:53 PM (qIHlG)
No one freaking knows how it's done as it 'haint been done before!
If expressing concern for those poor people by offering or asking for information about the situation from a pretty much hapless and helpless comfy warm chair so offends you then I would strongly and politely suggest that you get over yourself.
Those poor people will not be helped one whit by an online rending of garments, chest beating and lamentations by a commenter such as myself.
Neither will they be harmed by my efforts to listen to others and try to understand and grapple with such incomprehensible devastation, from our comfy chairs.
I don't really mean to jump all over you.
Likely, that sentiment was an expression of sorrow and anger and a feeling of helplessness that we all are feeling just now.
But, I read it as a kind of priggish, self-satisfied "my grief is more pure than yours"slam against the commenters on this blog.
With the exception of myself, commenters here are a big-hearted bunch and a goodly number of them are scary smart to boot!
Sure as shit some of them bring more godammned practical and professional experience than Katy fucking Couric or a Joe Scarbourough ever could hope to!
(The others? I merely tolerate them because they are occasionally amusing. That, and I live in fear of the Empire of Jeff! Once when I was young and foolish I let his baleful gaze alight upon me. Totally sucks ass! Not an experience I would recommend but I am ever grateful to Dear Leader for not destroying me outright! Just keepin' my head down as a mid-level functionary for nowz...)
Posted by: Deety insists apon herself *sigh* at March 15, 2011 10:58 PM (Jb3+B)
Most of the article I am seeing are speculation based on storage capacity and they are US sites that assume that spent fuel is stored forever. It isn't in Japan, they reprocess their spent fuel.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:03 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:05 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:06 PM (ZbLJZ)
I'm all for Nuke plants, still am, but lookie here, we got 4, countem 4 back to back reactors in critical condition. Engineer mistake # 1 placing plants too close to each other can cause a domino effect, restricting the emergency response capability and even preventing it.
Posted by: melvin at March 15, 2011 11:07 PM (3OCZw)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:07 PM (ZbLJZ)
Sounds far out there but the supporting docs seem to back it up.
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:07 PM (6Lzbz)
In normal operation, sure.
This isn't normal operation. Not by a long shot.
This is "find a way to steadily dump seawater into the reactor vessels and storage pools, without fatally irradiating the people doing the dumping".
I wouldn't call Naval Reactors.
I'd call the Seabees.
Posted by: torquewrench at March 15, 2011 11:09 PM (aWrFJ)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:10 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 11:10 PM (/Ft4q)
No breech in #1
Pumping water continuing to in #1 stable.
(NHK)
Reactor 5
Reactor 6
No power causing no circulation due to loss of power. No imminent danger
GE sending 10 gas turbine power generators.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 15, 2011 11:12 PM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:12 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:14 PM (qIHlG)
NEI Fact sheet about the storage of spent fuel
My understanding is that Unit 4 pool has about 300 elements freshly unloaded form the core. These have a lot of decay heat and thus all the problems so far have been with unit 4 pool.Units 5 and 6 have about 100 assemblies freshly off-loaded.
The remaining assemblies in the pools have been there for a long time and do not represent a significant heat source.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:14 PM (M9Ie6)
16 November 2010
Yumiko Kumano
Tokyo Electric Power Company
http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/6-1_powerpoint.pdf
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:17 PM (6Lzbz)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:17 PM (qIHlG)
So then what is causing the rise in radiation, how do you explain that ??
Busted coolant pipes or cracked containment ?
If it is so bad that they can't even get close enough to inspect do you still believe that there is no breach ?
Posted by: melvin at March 15, 2011 11:18 PM (3OCZw)
It says the same thing because the first thing you quoted was Alex Jones quoting NIRS, and the second thing you quoted was the source document at NIRS that Jones quoted.
Man! What are the odds?
As crosspatch points out, the Japanese say that there are only a couple of hundred rods in the temporary storage pool at Fukushima Dai-ichi #4.
Whereas Jones and NIRS appear to be assuming that the #4 temp storage pool is absolutely brim full with the maximum number of rods it could possibly hold, and so are all of the other temp storage pools, something highly unlikely.
If you look into the history of NIRS, you will find that they are a notoriously nutty antinuke bunch with a long history of simply making shit up.
This is not to say that there isn't a severe problem with the stored rods in the temporary pools. There is. It's just not anywhere nearly as severe as Jones and NIRS are claiming it to be.
Posted by: torquewrench at March 15, 2011 11:18 PM (aWrFJ)
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:21 PM (M9Ie6)
What if they are blown up (into the atmosphere)?
This image was taken by local media: http://tinyurl.com/6hlbtm2 - looks a lot worse to me than what we've been shown.
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:24 PM (6Lzbz)
The operators are intentionally venting containment periodically to reduce pressure. Every time they vent containment the radiation levels will go up.
They have to vent containment because the mode of cooling they are using involves dumping steam to contaiment from the reactor.
They have had clad damage due to partial uncovery of the core. That is where the I-131 and Cs is coming from.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:24 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Potassium Iodide at March 15, 2011 11:24 PM (/Ft4q)
What if a 50 mile wide asteroid splits the earth like a melon? Will the fuel remain stable?
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:25 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:27 PM (qIHlG)
So then what is causing the rise in radiation, how do you explain that ??
Releases from the topside spent fuel pools. Which are not inside the primary containment. And which will have been shaken up badly by hydrogen explosions from the venting from inside the primary containment.
I would bet there has been fuel melting inside of the reactor vessels. Probably substantial melting on at least two of the reactor cores. But I'd be very surprised if it has melted its way out of the primary containment.
Posted by: torquewrench at March 15, 2011 11:29 PM (aWrFJ)
Why? (not being a smart-ass, just doesn't seem that far a leap from reactor melting to melting through primary containment)
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:32 PM (6Lzbz)
http://tinyurl.com/4dfupps
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 16, 2011 03:13 AM (6Lzbz)
If you look at it closely it says they installed a dry cask storage facility. It may be all the spent fuel rods are in the pools, but that's not necessarily the case.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 11:34 PM (QgI7g)
What they have had is partial uncovery and clad damage at the upper portions of the fuel. All this talk of "melt" probably comes from a reporter with a degree in jornaljism interpreting fuel damage to mean fuel melt.
They are not the same thing.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:34 PM (M9Ie6)
They have to vent containment because the mode of cooling they are using involves dumping steam to contaiment from the reactor.
They have had clad damage due to partial uncovery of the core. That is where the I-131 and Cs is coming from.
Okay fine, I take it you are saying that the sharp increase in in radiation from the release (only damaged clads) is causing the high numbers. Question : do those numbers match or are the indicative of what event / Just clad damage ? come on, really, even with possible internal explosions. At what point ( what numbers or event) will you think that containment has failed ? What will be the proof ? Or can it only be manual visual ?
Again I'm all for Nuke Plants but we have been hosed from day one on this. If it were not for the explosions they would be saying that things are in control. They are clearly not.
Posted by: melvin at March 15, 2011 11:35 PM (3OCZw)
Read the NEI fact sheet I linked to. The dry fuel storage casks are immaterial to anything happening here.
The fact that they are in dry fuel storage itself means that they have decayed long enough that they do not need cooling.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:36 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 15, 2011 11:38 PM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:40 PM (6Lzbz)
Seriously.
Your erhm, experience is appreciated.
And I was nowhere near your godmmned lawn you cranky old coot and even if I wuz, how would you prove it?
Nyah, nyah!
*runs away and snerks*
Posted by: Deety will travel to play ding-dong-ditch! at March 15, 2011 11:41 PM (Jb3+B)
If the rad levels go up into the 100 Rem/hr stage on site and remain there I wold say they have a containment breach.
The levels are spiking due to controlled releases. Also, those fuel pols are contaminated so when you get one of those H2 burns some of that water flashes and is carried away. If you notice those explosions they had a rapid spike, but then it quickly fell back down.
And there is one other thing to consider, the longer they go hanging on the more time that fuel has to decay and the less impact that it will have if containment does go.
Things ARE better now than they were on Saturday but they will not be out of the water until they get a feed from offsite power and get some of the normal cooling systems on line. For example if they had power and water flow to the containment cooling fans they probably would not need to be doing these controlled vents.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:42 PM (M9Ie6)
I don't think that's clear at all. Why do you think that?
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 11:43 PM (QgI7g)
Posted by: Alex Jones at March 15, 2011 11:43 PM (qIHlG)
That is because you are listening to dumb shit reporters, anti-nuke activists, and other assorted shitheads. You can't get a "story" from them.
Read the WNN and NEI sites for rational updates.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:45 PM (M9Ie6)
Is there a source that shows that data in real-time or are you going from media reports?
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:45 PM (6Lzbz)
It's forbidden by local prefectural law for Japanese nuclear plants to store used fuel in dry casks on site. Why? I have no idea.
Fukushima got one temporary exception in the past. Years ago. I think it was 2006, but don't quote me.
It's likely that there is no substantial dry cask storage there. It's all been sent to the reprocessing plant.
There's a longer term wet storage pool which is separate from the temporary wet storage pools atop the reactors. It's a lot easier to access this pool to keep it wet, one would assume, as it's not located on top of a burning building whose interior is strongly radioactive.
Posted by: torquewrench at March 15, 2011 11:46 PM (aWrFJ)
As to that... do you have any feel for why is it taking so long to get power there? I mean, in light of the importance, you'd think whoever is tasked with that pretty much has carte blanche.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 15, 2011 11:47 PM (QgI7g)
Used nuclear fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant is stored in seven pools (one at each of the six reactors, plus a shared pool) and in a dry container storage facility (containing nine casks).
They do have 9 casks. If they are like ours each cask has about 5 elements in it.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:48 PM (M9Ie6)
I hope they have control of the actual equipment and valves that control the release. That is - after the explosions it is a real possibility that they could have lost the ability to do so from damage. Things that usually work might not work, so much.
I mean it can't be as simple as turning the petcock on air compressor tank to release or could it?
Posted by: melvin at March 15, 2011 11:51 PM (3OCZw)
There's an air gap below the bottom of the reactor vessel.
If molten fuel melts its way through, it falls. And splatters and spreads when it hits after falling.
That reduces the amount of heat concentrated at any one point.
This is by design.
Posted by: torquewrench at March 15, 2011 11:52 PM (aWrFJ)
This site is right in the middle of a devastation area. Have you seen the photos? I'm sure they are trying but there are only so many emergency workers available. In addition, power lines are the first thing to go in an earthquake, especially if they have the old glass insulators.
I also understand from some sketchy reports that they did fly in some diesels but were unable to connect them to the buses. I "think" they do have some small generators powering some of the equipment such as the batteries need for maintaining indications.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:52 PM (M9Ie6)
Why can't they just plug them into the outlet on the reactor?
(ducking)
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 15, 2011 11:56 PM (6Lzbz)
When hurricane Hugo ripped through SC and NC it was over a month before most people got their power back. Some few people even longer.
This was worse than Hugo.
Posted by: Vic at March 15, 2011 11:58 PM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Who Knows at March 15, 2011 11:58 PM (rZgW4)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:02 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:02 AM (M9Ie6)
I was wondering about that. You're on East Coast time?
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 16, 2011 12:03 AM (QgI7g)
They can only do that by running gas turbines normally used for peak load as base load. When the summer rolls around and everyone turns on the A/C they're gonna be almost 33% short.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 16, 2011 12:05 AM (QgI7g)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:06 AM (qIHlG)
Yep, and I have been up every night almost all night long on this nuke accident monitoring and posting.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:06 AM (M9Ie6)
Little after 1 am on the west coast.
Is your coffee strong and do you put a lot of cream in it? Hand a cup over, if you please. 
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 12:06 AM (rZgW4)
They're dropping water by helicopter now. How long will it take the fuel to cool at this rate?
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 16, 2011 12:08 AM (6Lzbz)
Thank you for that.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 16, 2011 12:09 AM (QgI7g)
Posted by: melvin at March 16, 2011 12:14 AM (3OCZw)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:15 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 04:15 AM (qIHlG)
Sure. You'll die of high blood pressure long before the Cesium can kill you.
Posted by: Ace's liver at March 16, 2011 12:16 AM (QgI7g)
We've got a disaster around the world and people have gone bat shit crazy here. Not that that's necessarily new but it does scare the shit out of me should something actually happen here.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 16, 2011 12:17 AM (W58PC)
As for the helos, they canceled that. They are filling using another method.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:20 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:22 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: melvin at March 16, 2011 12:22 AM (3OCZw)
All of these things are only temporary. The fuel will have to be cooled for months before the decay heat is low enough that the water usage goes way down.
As I said, until they get some power back they are not out of the woods.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:22 AM (M9Ie6)
NHKWorld is showing one now with the orange bucket full of water... Footage can't be more than a few hours old.
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 16, 2011 12:23 AM (6Lzbz)
Nuke plants are supposed to get hot aren't they?
I thought that the whole point was to generate steam.
My understanding is that Chernobyl was a huge cock-up based on crappy design and even crappier Soviet engineering and lazy assed Russian execution.
(I mean seriously, how the fuck do you set fire to a nuclear reactor?)
So, what I want to know about Japan is, how do they stop, divert or contain the massive energies being released.
I mean it's not like the power plant itself is just going to explode all over the place or something.
That would truly be another incomprehensible disaster.
I dunno.
I pray for the faceless 50 and don't discount their bravery but "heightened radiation" is is pretty much an expected by-product of starting up little mini stars in your own back yard, no?
(Poetic license. I do understand the difference between fission and fusion.)
Bless each and every one of those Japanese workers for going in there to help save all of their brothers and sisters and parents in their country even if they might not know for sure the fate of their own family members.
Posted by: Deety will travel to play ding-dong-ditch! at March 16, 2011 12:24 AM (Jb3+B)
Nothing has improved anywhere, but I am enjoying a mighty fine cup of coffee,
That's good enough for me, right now.
I will be sending money to Japan today, too.
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 12:24 AM (rZgW4)
http://intelligentsiacoffee.com/store/product/id/12570
Posted by: Serious Cat at March 16, 2011 12:26 AM (bAySe)
What's the filling that you're talking about? Is it concrete time? Or are they still just using water to try and cool the containment shells?
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 16, 2011 12:27 AM (W58PC)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:30 AM (qIHlG)
How are they going to cool it for months when the containment structures are blown to hell and they can't keep it from bursting into flames for more than 8 hours at a time?
Posted by: Vic's muse at March 16, 2011 12:30 AM (6Lzbz)
I hate Sv. It is a shitty unit with too big of a dose.
1 Sv = 100 Rem
1mSv = 100mRem
1uSv = 10-6 Sv = 10-4 Rem = .1 mRem
For dose effects it takes 25 Rem accumulated whole body dose to even be able to tell by blood sample that you received it.At 100 Rem you will get some nausea or hair loss.
At 250 Rem you will get panacea, severe effects all over the body, hair loss etc. Some people will die.
500 Rem is the LD 50/30 dose. 50% of the people die within 30 days with no medical treatment.
As for "cancer" you would have to get a healthy dose to be able to break it out of the statistical cancer rates. When you hear one of these people talking about small doses causing an "increase in cancer" they are taking some scientific paper out of context. They has never been any real statistical proof that small doses causes any statistical increase in cancer rates.
But, just look at what they are saying now about cell phones. They are now claiming they cause cancer. I just wonder what caused cancer back in the middle ages. People didn't die so early then did they?
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:32 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 16, 2011 12:33 AM (W58PC)
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 16, 2011 12:34 AM (6Lzbz)
TEPCO was planning to battle the fire and provide additional water to cool used nuclear fuel with water dumped from helicopters, but abandoned the plan because a hole in the building's roof is not in close proximity of the used fuel pool.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:34 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: melvin at March 16, 2011 12:34 AM (3OCZw)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:40 AM (qIHlG)
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 16, 2011 12:41 AM (6Lzbz)
The amount of power from decay heat an hour after shutdown is very small. But in still must be removed because it is more than can be removed by radiant heat transfer unless you allow the fuel to heat to the point that the clad is damaged.
In addition, even if you had enough core heat to roll the turbine IT STILL TAKES POWER from the unit auxiliaries for all the supporting systems to run.
That has been the problem the entire time. They have no power for anything.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:42 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:43 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:43 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:45 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 04:43 AM (qIHlG)
Only from what ever batteries they have been able to maintain. Probably absolute minimum. For example I think it was unit 3 where they lost their last pressure vessel level indicator. They are feeding it off of by gosh and by golly now.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 12:45 AM (M9Ie6)
Of all the hills one could choose to die on I can't imagine choosing this one. But so be it.
Posted by: Brian in New Orleans at March 16, 2011 12:46 AM (6Lzbz)
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 12:49 AM (rZgW4)
You aint prepared for shit if you don't have youself a genuine black, rabbit fur, Russian shapka!
That and moonboots if you plan on spending a couple of 14 hours or so standing on the pavement of a City like Chicago.
I really cannot express the superiority of real fur as a chapeux when battling hypothermia.
Hands down, dead fluffy bunny rabbits are so full of win when they are on my head!
Looks totally stupid but it works!
Posted by: Deety at March 16, 2011 12:50 AM (Jb3+B)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 12:51 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 01:00 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:02 AM (qIHlG)
Just like the NEI thing said.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 01:03 AM (M9Ie6)
He will rapidly become another KOS/DU if he keeps this shit up.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 01:07 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:10 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:14 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:16 AM (qIHlG)
1. Japan nukes melting run for your life
2. Nickey Haley is evil and makes too much money
3. Budget cuts are killing schools, children, and old people.
I swear there is simply no news media left that isn't in the communist's pockets now.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 01:17 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:26 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: Sock Puppet 5000 at March 16, 2011 01:29 AM (W58PC)
Milli (m) is 10-3
I always have to go SN to keep the decimal points right or I will screw it up every time.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 01:30 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 16, 2011 01:30 AM (R6og3)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 01:35 AM (qIHlG)
I live right near a fault line and can't move, in the near future.
What will I do today?
Cook a delicious breakfast for my family and kiss each one of them.
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 01:35 AM (rZgW4)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 05:35 AM (qIHlG)
I have never been able to find any actual numbers on the dose from those things. Initially the lying bastards put out that there was no dose and tried to say it wasn't really x-rays, it was "back scatter".
Back scatter means it works from compton's scattering in which the electrons in your skin are energized causing them to move up a level and then they decay back down and release an photon based on the quantum of the level.
IOW, they ionized your skin. It may be low but it sure as hell is not zero.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 01:39 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 16, 2011 01:39 AM (R6og3)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 16, 2011 01:46 AM (R6og3)
No amount of hand washing will keep typhoid from ravaging Japan, if bodies wash up.
I'm afraid that's next.
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 01:53 AM (rZgW4)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 02:03 AM (M9Ie6)
It's not ok to say it, but Japan is not Haiti. Hollywood won't put on a show.
Let's see how many dollars go there vs. how many went to Haiti, and what famous people go.
George Clooney? Sean Penn?
Charlie Sheen?
Let's see who puts on a show for Japan.
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 02:12 AM (rZgW4)
Posted by: by any other name at March 16, 2011 02:15 AM (H+LJc)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 02:16 AM (qIHlG)
Picture Bill Clinton getting moist over this greater tragedy.
That dawg don't wanna hunt now, does he.
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 02:20 AM (rZgW4)
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 02:32 AM (rZgW4)
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 16, 2011 02:33 AM (kUaEF)
This site explains that Tokyo GM tube reading that is almost worthless without calibration data
It seems that they do provide some cal data for it. It seems that normal background is 15 cpm. The released radiation from the event is what you are getting. IOW if the level goes up to 20 cpm, you have a release of 5 cpm.
The site says that 100 cpm is equivalent to 1 uSv so an increase to 20 cpm is 5 cpm or 0.05 uSv. In U.S. units that is 0.005 mRem. In other words it is barely measurable. Before I would be concerned it would have to go to 5 mRem which is the definition of a radiation area here. That is an increase by 1000. And even that would be a mild ‘concern”.
However, all of that being
said one must keep in mind that a GM tube only measures beta-gama, and maybe
not even beta depending on how they have it configured.
BTW, the current time in Tokyo is 19:40, take EDT, add 1 hour and call it pm.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 02:40 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 02:40 AM (rZgW4)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 02:45 AM (qIHlG)
Preface, may God be merciful to the Japanese in their sorrows. And in conclusion, of course the US Military being stationed in Japan should assist at least with information and supplies.
Unprecedented, this destruction of modern nuclear technology unleashed by nature itself.
Now here comes the politically incorrect concern.
As a sovereign nation, on behalf of their own technology, beyond the tragedy and victims, the Japanese asking for the US Military to take the brunt of the radiation hit, to do what must be done, seems a shift of their own responsibilities onto America. Yet they must have their own professionals to deal with nuclear meltdowns. I can't imagine that with all of their nuclear plants, they haven't the trained technicians to deal with this multiheaded nuclear dragon of Japan's own construction. This horrendous natural disaster and subsequent infrastructural demise is not a communist invasion from China, supposedly what our Military in Japan is to deter. Getting the US Military to do the dirtiest radiation job, sacrificing our personnel to seal off the Japanese radiation, reveals Japan's lack of preparation to deal independently with their own nuclear plant catastrophes without requiring more than US assistance, but requiring that the US take over the operation.
Posted by: by any other name at March 16, 2011 02:45 AM (H+LJc)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 02:48 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 02:49 AM (qIHlG)
The last I saw they were not asking for that. They asked for the Navy to take over fire fighting efforts so that "the 50" could concentrate on the nuke stuff.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 02:54 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 02:54 AM (qIHlG)
Posted by: FlaviusJulius at March 16, 2011 02:55 AM (qIHlG)
The punk they took into custody from the anti-whalers was released after a short time in Japanese custody, if I remember right.
Very repentent and subdued, after that, even on the tv show.
Posted by: Who Knows at March 16, 2011 02:59 AM (rZgW4)
So no need to take KI because of the SFP. Now Cs-137 different story; t1/2 = 30.17 years.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 03:11 AM (M9Ie6)
432 Japan was warned more than two years ago
At the very least, the moral of this story is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Instead, having ignored responsibilities, postponing the inevitable until the obvious too late happens, the politicians respond after the fact with a knee jerk pulling the rug out from under the latest technology. By not building now what should have been built initially the world can avoid producing energy and making progress. Green rules peabrains.
Translate the 8.9, tsunami and subsequent 200 aftershocks registering at 6 from Japanese into English in America and we face the meaning of our nation's Dollar collapse and bankruptcy. Unprecedented national destruction and misery.
Posted by: by any other name at March 16, 2011 03:18 AM (H+LJc)
The Pu gets burned up by EOL so there is probably very little in the fuel. Besides that, it is an alpha emitter, will never show up on the GM tube, and is also a much heaver particulate. It will settle out of any plume much quicker and not spread as far.
Pu is also strictly an ingestion hazard. IOW, you can swim in it as long as you don't breath it or eat it. Once ingested it will settle out at some location inside the body and may cause cancer 20 to 30 years down the road.
It has the same rate of hazard as Uranium being mined from out of the ground.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 03:33 AM (M9Ie6)
Also, another problem is the BS richter scale to begin with. It is a very poor scale. The actual plant seismic design limits are based on horizontal and vertical g-force vectors.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 03:37 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Long island at March 16, 2011 03:55 AM (TiURi)
I don't know anything about the "international" ratings. I am an expert on the U.S. ratings though and by those this would be a "General Emergency" which is the highest bad rating.
In the US they are
Unusual Event - Ho-hum why are we even worried about this?
Alert - gee something happened not good.
Site Emergency - bad shit going down, better keep an eye out
General Emergency - Look out ma if you live close by better get ready to leave. (minimum recommendation is shelter 2 mile radius and evacuate 5 miles downwind)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:04 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Vic
Then 21st Century formulas and vocabulary are due for scientific update.
Vic, you could submit a brief article promotion of information for mass distribution. You might have peers to aid that endeavor. Face it, revisionism is underway that would implement ignorance over scientific facts; all the more reason to distribute what you know not only to peer journals and news rags, but to sympathetic yet intelligent media sources like John Stossel, Mark Steyn, Ben Stein who might like to help with the educational promotion into institutional implementation, countering the Michael Moore stupidity. I doubt there's yet a Nuclear Veterans News (NVN).
Posted by: by any other name at March 16, 2011 04:13 AM (H+LJc)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:18 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 16, 2011 04:23 AM (AZGON)
Considering the nature of the emergency, you'd think they could jury-rig something to get the pumps running, if nothing else. I've seen some pretty hairy lash-ups in my time and if this isn't a situation where you throw the codebook out the window, I don't know what is.
Posted by: TobyTucker at March 16, 2011 01:56 AM (2Z6tq)
Not on my watch.
Posted by: OSHA at March 16, 2011 04:24 AM (PMoHl)
Breaking news: No major damage to containment at Unit 1
They are walking back the BS that was announced earlier.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:25 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: George Orwell at March 16, 2011 08:23 AM (AZGON)
When in danger, when in doubt...run in circles and scream and shout!
Posted by: torabora at March 16, 2011 04:29 AM (PMoHl)
Posted by: Long island at March 16, 2011 04:31 AM (TiURi)
No, I just don't know anything about them at all.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:35 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:35 AM (M9Ie6)
This is a very good idea. The reporting on this event has been horrible. Newsday, the local newspaper, actually interviewed a local environmentalist about Japan. I know her and she is no rocket scientist. I know she drove the folks at Brookhaven crazy with scare tactics. Her degree? A BA in environmental studies. Generally that means you couldn't even handle general biology course.
BTW if the Nuclear Veterans slapped Shep Smith, Matt Drudge etc around I'd pay for that.
Posted by: Long Island at March 16, 2011 04:45 AM (TiURi)
TEPCO was planning to battle the fire and provide additional water to cool used nuclear fuel with water dumped from helicopters, but abandoned the plan because a hole in the building's roof is not in close proximity of the used fuel pool.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:34 AM (M9Ie6)
Someone need a hole in a roof?
Posted by: US Navy at March 16, 2011 04:45 AM (PMoHl)
Posted by: Downsized Upscale at March 16, 2011 08:41 AM (IhHdM)
Note to self: get bright yellow booties.
Posted by: B+rry "I'm Part Irish" Ob+owmao at March 16, 2011 04:47 AM (PMoHl)
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:47 AM (M9Ie6)
17.71 8 am yesterday (east coast USA)
12.98 12:06 pm
18.54 5:30 pm
14.59 currently
Posted by: Downsized Upscale at March 16, 2011 06:14 AM (IhHdM)
according to that site, anything under 60 is good, this this pretty much background radiation at this point, I would think
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 16, 2011 04:56 AM (FIDMq)
Go back up and look at my post 433. It would have to go offscale high to be of much concern at all.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 04:59 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: Downsized Upscale at March 16, 2011 08:58 AM (IhHdM)
That is what the people who operate the GM tube said. I trust them over some asshole in the BBC.
Also, you can't go by what the actual reading is. You subtract the background from the current reading to get the actual dose rate.
Keep in mind that normal background counts are most just noise anyway unless you are sitting next to some granite building. People in congress right now are getting a higher dose than Tokyo.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 05:03 AM (M9Ie6)
Good to know, Vic!
*Inhales, holds her nose and dives back in*
Posted by: Japanese Pearl Diver Lady at March 16, 2011 05:07 AM (Jb3+B)
It is also snowing so that will literally wash down the air and limit releases to a very small area. One of the emergency mitigation strategies we used to have for an "uncontolled release" was to direct a fog nozzle fire hose on to the release point to help wash down the air and scrub some of the bad shit out.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 05:07 AM (M9Ie6)
_____________________________________________________
WRONG.... Ask yourself this. If there is a fire near by, would you be caring a tank full of 0-2? Try NO! As a Fire fighter myself we carry just compressed (outside) air and nothing more.
Posted by: Dustoff at March 16, 2011 05:10 AM (JYBAr)
LOL, the average reporter doesn't know the difference between a Scott Air pack and an oxygen tank.
In fact, I bet if you went by a reporter's house their yard would be filled with toilet paper where they went out and cleaned up holes in the ground after going to the bathroom.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 05:14 AM (M9Ie6)
Well Drudge hasn't gotten memo that snow could be a good thing. Don't you know Japan is now having a nuclear winter.
Posted by: Long Island at March 16, 2011 05:16 AM (TiURi)
They have had clad damage due to partial uncovery of the core. That is where the I-131 and Cs is coming from.
But Vic, Shemp was on FOX last night saying 70% damage to rods was tantamount to a meltdown, and 30% damage to the other rods was something like a meltdown.
He was on Hannity and Greta and others and kept telling his story of "they told us the fire was out in 4, then later they tell us there is a fire and it was only contained ... so which is it?"
Whiny little beech, just couldn't get over that he hadn't gotten the full story neatly wrapped up for him ... dammit, he went all the way to Tokyo, and this is the respect he gets? LOL
Posted by: bill at March 16, 2011 05:17 AM (D6qOQ)
That page at Drudge looked like it had been written by a radical anti-nuke eco-tard.
Anyway. Time for a break. Need to get some time on the exercise bike and take a shower.
Back later.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 05:18 AM (M9Ie6)
LOL, Fox would have been better off if he had fell in the bay at New Orleans and been washed out to sea.
Back later
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 05:20 AM (M9Ie6)
Thank you for your sane, expertise reporting on this event. You and few others have made Ace of Spades as my source for accurate info. BTW Ace owes you some valu-rate and hobo for you have done.
Posted by: Long Island at March 16, 2011 05:24 AM (TiURi)
Posted by: Long Island at March 16, 2011 05:31 AM (TiURi)
Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 16, 2011 05:39 AM (0fzsA)
That's actually kind of fascinating. That right there. I don't think I had ever considered snowflakes as tiny little atmospheric scrubby brushes before.
H2 Ohhh!
Amazing and scary powerful stuff in all of it's states, no?
BTW that clip on FOX of the 63 yr old aunt, searching the mudflats and rubble for the remains of her nephew is almost too heartbreaking to bear.
I just want to scoop her up and wrap her in blankets and feed her chicken soup and keep her warm and safe and dry. And she is just one of millions.
Damn, damn, damn!
Posted by: Deety at March 16, 2011 05:39 AM (Jb3+B)
But the media themselves seem so hyped to be waiting for that signal that "this is it ... MELTDOWN", that they interpret the higher levels from venting as a starting gun to be the first to report "Meltdown". OMFG, the workers are seeking shelter ... then later ... oh, the pumps were still running, workers went inside for a bit.
There are so many false starts on that headline now, that people can't believe anything they read. (except for here).
As a public service, all these Soros, Ploughshare Funds, nuke activists should be paying for their activist commercials, instead of presented as nuclear engineers. At least they should be questioned about their agenda by the FOX "reporters".
Posted by: bill at March 16, 2011 05:55 AM (D6qOQ)
***************************
No this isnt a stupid question at all. It really is hard to appreciate how massive power plant turbines are. I'm not sure at what power level is needed to turn the blades but decay heat I'm fairly certain is not enough.
GE did come up with an emergency system called HPCI (high pressure coolant injection). The HPCI turbine doesnt produce electricity but rather the steam energy is used to pump water back to the reactor vessel.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 16, 2011 06:22 AM (LsGTr)
Restoration of electrical power to the site was under way at the Daiichi plant as of 6:00 a.m. EDT Wednesday. A temporary cable was being connected between an off-site power line and Daiichi reactor 3. Off-site power has not been available at the site since the earthquake on March 11.
Looks like they may be getting off-site power to at least unit 3 soon.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 07:21 AM (M9Ie6)
Snowing would be really helpful with volatiles but not so much with noble gases.
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 16, 2011 07:29 AM (LsGTr)
From TEPCO press release: "* (Unit 1) As it is confirmed that the temperature of the Emergency Equipment Cooling Water System *1 has increased, at 3:20 pm, March 15th, we stopped the Residual Heat Removal System (B) for the inspection. Subsequently, failure was detected in the power supply facility associated with the pumps of the Emergency Equipment Cooling Water System. At 4:25 pm, March 15th, after replacing the power facility, the pumps and the Residual Heat Removal System (B) have been reactivated. * (Unit 4) As it is confirmed that the pressure at the outlet of the pumps of the Emergency Equipment Cooling Water System*1 has been decreased, at 8:05 pm, March 15th, we stopped the Residual Heat Removal System (B) for the inspection. Subsequently, failure was detected in the power supply facility associated with the pumps of the Emergency Equipment Cooling Water System. At 9:25 pm, March 15th, after replacing the relevant facility, the pumps and the Residual Heat Removal System (B) have been reactivated."
Posted by: Another Bob at March 16, 2011 07:51 AM (DORKh)
Sounds like Site 2 which hasn't had any problems. Site 1 hasn't been able to run RHR because they haven't had power.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 07:55 AM (M9Ie6)
Anyone see any mention of RCIC functionality?
Posted by: Lonny Eckert at March 16, 2011 07:57 AM (LsGTr)
It seems like unit #3 is where a lot of the electrical connections converge. For example, when #3 exploded, #2 lost power to its pumps and that is what started the problems in unit2
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 08:12 AM (ZbLJZ)
Excellent press conference right now in NHK.
Those WERE the fuel tanks that were swept away.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 08:21 AM (ZbLJZ)
Generators for units 5 and 6 are working.
No indications that things are going to get worse.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 08:29 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 08:32 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Red Shirt at March 16, 2011 09:01 AM (FIDMq)
Posted by: Another Bob at March 16, 2011 09:18 AM (DORKh)
The connection to the mobile generation system didn't work to power the entire plant. The mobile generators were ok for powering some instrumentation but not for running the pumps. They have now separated the power system so that high voltage, high current power can be run to supplement the low voltage power supplied by the mobile generators.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 09:25 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 09:31 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Chris M at March 16, 2011 09:31 AM (7SPfa)
I am down to 100% internet for news now.
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 09:33 AM (M9Ie6)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 09:49 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: rickl at March 16, 2011 09:49 AM (zoehZ)
Posted by: rickl at March 16, 2011 09:51 AM (zoehZ)
Posted by: Peter Warner at March 16, 2011 10:13 AM (gxKXs)
This is a major natural disaster but I don't believe the situation is nearly as bad as the news is making it out to be and so far *actual* information seems to confirm that belief.
If they get high voltage power on-site today, the situation will improve rapidly.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 10:14 AM (ZbLJZ)
4,160 volt
60Hz 3-phase,
1000 amp
7,458 horsepower
1,811 RPM
The portable generators could not supply this power.
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 10:23 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 10:27 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: crosspatch at March 16, 2011 10:32 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: Mick at March 16, 2011 10:47 AM (rrkE9)
Posted by: Another Bob at March 16, 2011 10:56 AM (DORKh)
The grid is not as susceptible to EMP attack as it once was. However, even in the event it does occur, the EDGs at the plants are located within shielded walls several feet thick which are laced heavily with rebar. The EMP would not take out the EDGs.
All that being said, if we get to the point where someone is busting off nukes in the atmosphere above us, it will not be long before they are busting off nukes on us. We are back to what is the real concern; 200 million dead or that evil power plant and EMP?
Posted by: Vic at March 16, 2011 10:57 AM (M9Ie6)
So where is the list at now for curtailment to provide a better world "for the chidren":
1. Federal Reserve/Banksters
2. Unions (Public)
3. Walter Duranty "media types"
4. Lawyers
Posted by: the forgotten man at March 16, 2011 11:17 AM (yd08d)
Vic
Do you think they will actually be turning the overall corner soon? It seems like unit 1 is doing okay and not hearing much on unit 2, so that seems to be better news. I wish they could get a better handle on 3 and 4, "so we can all go back about our lives." (BP exec quote)
Posted by: Sandy Salt at March 16, 2011 12:28 PM (zMdEg)
Posted by: mistress overdone at March 16, 2011 07:42 PM (2/oBD)
imagine those intense levels of radiation. the faceless 50 will never be able to see their loved ones again. they will die alone but i pray they die at least with eachother. I can't imagine wanting so much to die with my loved ones and not have that opportunity. We should all be so lucky and blessed that we were not called to take upon such an enormous responsibility that we sacrifice everything including our peace of mind, happiness, and fellowship.
Posted by: Sarah at April 06, 2011 12:52 AM (QtEsb)
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Posted by: PJ at March 15, 2011 06:27 PM (4Tc6B)