1
'ello

2 Is there any conservative blogger or writer that Dan Riehl hasn't thoroughly pissed off at some point?

3 The RedState/Dan Riehl/Jamie Radtke Fur-PileBet an Ewok rocks in a fur-pile! Just sayin'.

4 What the macaca is goin' on around the right?

5 And yet none of this can detract from the fact that Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

6 Shouldn't Erik disclose this to his readers? Perhaps he did so, but it seems that such a situation should be disclosed.

7 I blame Obama's vacation.  Idle minds, cause blog wars.

8
I can't fault Michelle Malkin for anything.

She doesn't carry water for nobody. She has unwavering principles, that's all.

9 I think many of us cons have a soft spot for Allen after the merciless slandering unloaded on him by WasPost. Although, as a con with a penchant for criticizing the GOP's idiotic PR strategies, that he was unable to defend himself from the WasPost's calumnies is not a good sign. Blame Marc Foley?

10 The RedState/Dan Riehl/Jamie Radtke Fur-Pile

Bet an Ewok rocks in a fur-pile! Just sayin'.

Reposted with 80% less typing ineptitude.

11 The egos are ridiculous at RedState.

12 I hope it doesn't devolve into rapper like warfare.

13 All things being equal, always go with the pooter.

14 and I gotta tell you, I do not get the anti-vaccine stuff and never ever will

Is it that she's anti-vaccine or against having the state force everyone to have their kid get this particular jab?  That's a pretty big difference in my book.

15
Michelle Malkin was the only conservative blogger th have the balls and integrity to call out Mike Brown (Brownie: heckuva job) after Hurricane Katrina.

And you know what, Brown was a fool, as we found out later, and President Bush made a big mistake hiring him.

16 But don't go with the anti-vaccine pooter, unless they have big tits.

17 Let me know when somebody gets pwned or served.

18 I mean, big Gellers

19 BLOG WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* punches nearest Moron *

20 There's nothing wrong with brushing up on your combat skills.  Carry on.

21 I don't want the state forcing a shot on my kids that is not shown to be absolutely necessary to public health. Perry's program had an opt-out, so I just can't get all that worked up about this "issue."

22 I haven't heard of any of this stuff.  Eric Erickson showed what a dick he is a long time ago.  Does anyone really care what he thinks one way or another?  Seriously?

23 Fucking dryer sheets ruin everything.

24 Blogarama.

25 OT, Brokeback Mountain 2. The one you'll want to see...

http://tinyurl.com/3chukzv

26

“my bosses are huge Allen friends”

Who puts that in an email to the opposition thinking it won't get leaked? And who leaks it thinking the betrayal of confidence won't result in bad blood? 

27 Does Patterico know about this? That guy loves a dustup.

28

 I do not get the anti-vaccine stuff and never ever will

hmmm, seems your enthusiasm for small government is an on again, off again thing

29 Isn't that nice Erickson boy working for CNN?  Are they the bosses what shanked him? If he had principles he'd quit, no?

30 >>>Is it that she's anti-vaccine or against having the state force everyone to have their kid get this particular jab? That's a pretty big difference in my book. It is my belief she is anti-vaccine generally. She calls people "vaccine bullies," for example. And re this jab, there was an opt-out. But that's not enough; the anti-vaccine agitators want their position to be the standard, state-sanctioned, state-promoted one. Polio and smallpox just emailed me to say "Whaz up, playa?"

31

Boy, that escalated quickly.  I mean, that really got out of hand fast!

32 I'm avoiding the ugly accusations because honestly I'd like this all to be worked out behind the scenes.

So this post isn't really here?

33 >>>hmmm, seems your enthusiasm for small government is an on again, off again thing +1000 Awesome comment, dude!!!

34

blam!

you're banned

35 Can we at least get a good mud wrestling match out of the whole thing?

36 Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

37 Maybe these "conservative" bloggers should be asking the Weeping Boner and his band of idiots why they are on vacation when Barky has just announced his intention to usurp Congressional power and shit all over American sovereignty by PERSONALLY deciding which illegals will be given the "legal right" to stay in America.  It isn't Barky's to give away that "right" and it is a highly impeachable offense.  If the GOP are too cowardly to impeach the traitor, then they could at least be in session formulating legislation that stops the Indonesian Imbecile from proceeding.

But, instead, they are throwing their shit at each other over something stupid and totally inconsequential.

38 Did someone ask about a vaccine bully?

39 Slap fight!

40
do I detect a mix of libertarianism and deference to authoritarianism?

41 while the circular firing squad practices, a repost to remind everyone that it's now official: the Oracle of Omaha opens his mouth these days mainly to perform fellatio upon the other O... Buffett to host high-profile fundraiser for Obama CNN - 45 minutes ago By Charles Riley @CNNMoney August 25, 2011: 12:25 PM ET NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Warren Buffett will host a fundraiser for President Obama next month in New York City,

42

Who puts that in an email to the opposition thinking it won't get leaked? And who leaks it thinking the betrayal of confidence won't result in bad blood? 

Uh yeah, WTF Erick?  He started getting on my nerves over year ago and I can't even remember the last time I visited his site.

43 No one can make the earth move like a US Senator. Seriously. You don't want to piss one off. They can fuck you up.  Freedom is nothing left to lose, but if your income depends on kissing some senator ass, then pucker up, buttercup.

44 Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

Como esta, biiitchaaas?

45 Polio and smallpox just emailed me to say "Whaz up, playa?"


Don't forget about us!!!

46 hmmm, seems your enthusiasm for small government is an on again, off again thing
Posted by: glowing blue meat at August 25, 2011 01:21 PM (K/USr)

"Small government" isn't the same as "no government". There are some legitimate powers of government and it seems preventing communicable diseases from running wild would be one of them.

47 I'm with Michelle.

48 I hear George Allen once called Barack Obama a Stuttering Clusterfuck Of A Miserable Failure, which as we all know is an African/Portuguese racial slur.

49
so why rock the boat?

So the best candidate can win? we know what happens when you allow a SCoaMF not actually have to prevail in the arena of ideas and actually win an election.

Not that George Allen is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure. His Redskins football teams are proof of that.

50

hmmm, seems your enthusiasm for small government is an on again, off again thing

Posted by: glowing blue meat
.....
Oh good.. your kids get to share lunch tables with the no vaccines kids.. thanks for volunteering!

51 I live here an barely know her name, why are they fighting over her. But to jump from consultant to the US Senate, esp after the "she who cannot be named" fiasco, seems like a bad idea. I think she is building a name recognition base for a run at gov.

52
re: Buffet swabbing Obama's rump

I'm giddy about it. Next month is gonna be brutal for Obama.
We're heading into a terrible jobs report for August. Even if UE remains unchaged, it's bad news for Obama.

If UE goes up a tick, which I suspect it will, oh boy...

53 I'm avoiding the ugly accusations because honestly I'd like this all to be worked out behind the scenes.

sekret meetings!

54 preventing communicable diseases from running wild would be one of them.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 25, 2011 01:25 PM (2f1Rs)

I think I just found something Obama can cut in the budget.

55

I'm avoiding the ugly accusations because honestly I'd like this all to be worked out behind the scenes.

 

It's too late now.

56 43 No one can make the earth move like a US Senator. Seriously. You don't want to piss one off. They can fuck you up.  Freedom is nothing left to lose, but if your income depends on kissing some senator ass, then pucker up, buttercup.

Posted by: Pooter Hound at August 25, 2011 01:24 PM (le5qc)

Yeah, Ben Nelson tells himself that every morning when he looks in the mirror.

57 Speaking of Malkin, I am the only person who gets irritated that every onther word in one of her posts is a hyperlink to another one of her articles?

58

It is my belief she is anti-vaccine generally.

Yeh, I remember years ago she was against some of them. I almost fell off my chair laughing while reading some liberals approvingly quoting her without knowing her general views that would have made them scream in horror.

59 I'm not gonna jump on the bash Michelle bandwagon even though I thought her vaccine column was overwrought and near hysterical. She's been in the trenches fighting for our side for a long time and she gets a little leeway with me even though I disagree with her on this "issue."

60 There is also a report that Radtke, when given a platform at the RedState deal, was drunk or at least so awful as to appear drunk.
I've seen her compared to the Medina gal who ran for TX gov.--looked good at first blush, said some good things, then on closer look was revealed as a total loon.
----------------
Polio and smallpox just emailed me to say "Whaz up, playa?"

Chillin' like a villain.
/s/
whooping cough and measles

61 35 Can we at least get a good mud wrestling match out of the whole thing?

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at August 25, 2011 01:22 PM (f9c2L)

only if it's between MM and Pam

62 I do not get the anti-vaccine stuff and never ever will

Well let me give a crack at explaining it. The government generally should not have the power to inject what it sees fit into your body good for you or not. Now there are some exceptions. For instance when used specifically as a mechanism of execution or when public health concerns dictate that you become a public health risk when not vaccinated. But the latter is typically limited to highly communicable potentially harmful diseases. The vaccination is given at the order of government, because your decision to remain unvaccinated and take the risk in doing so presents an unacceptable public risk.

So a free society accepts a practice it would normally not allow. Because reasonably people can't avoid casual contact or being in the same space as an infected person, so no reasonable method short of vaccine can prevent the disease from spreading.

With HPV small changes in behavior could effectively guard against infection without vaccination because HPV is not highly communicable.

You cannot get HPV (the ones they are vaccinating for) by casual contact, nor can you get it by air if in the vicinity of someone who has it, nor by kissing.

The government does not have in this case sufficient argument that your decision to remain unvaccinated places the public at undue risk. And therefore they should not have the right to mandate that you be vaccinated.

63 No problems.  Erickson has clearly identified this as a "distraction".  That will solve the problem.  Works for Bammy, no?

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/08/25/the-distraction/

64 Polio and smallpox just emailed me to say "Whaz up, playa?

Well, if her position is vaccines like MMR should be opt-out then that's more than a little nutty.  We've already seen problems with that in Cali as parents try to freeload off of the herd immunity to protect their own child from a one-in-a-bazillion chance of having a complication.

65 I've been part of too many stupid blog fights.

We are going to disagree all the damn time.  We have a very long way to go and have to see the big picture, so we have to express our views without harming the general coalition.

66 What's the email address to send Ace an article link?

67 Also, they don't vaccinate for smallpox any more

68 Plus by several accounts Radtke sucked at speech giving at the Red State Hoedown. Just because someone says they are Tea Party doesn't make them a good or even the best candidate. I'd probably vote for her if she was the R candidate, but in the primary, I wouldn't vote for her. I think she's a weak candidate. Good thing I don't live in the State. Riehl, like Patterico, always seems to be spoiling for a fight.

69

only if it's between MM and Pam

Posted by: The Great Satan's Ghost at August 25, 2011 01:29 PM (UrPTC)

What am I, chopped liver?

70 What's the email address to send Ace an article link?

AceofSpades4RickPerry at gmail dot com

I just know it!

71 @63 And that's why there was an opt-out, the program was not mandatory.

72 It's all fun and games until a Senator is angered

73 scurrilous? Oh - it is on!

74 This post is like the intersection between a Lambda Lambda Lambda rush function and a Williamsburg hipster slap fight.

75 33 Posted by: Polio Ewok at August 25, 2011 01:22 PM (nj1bB)

Going to have to cite you for that one, son.

76 Just because someone says they are Tea Party doesn't make them a good or even the best candidate.

But I'm so pure.

77 EE may be the nicest chap in the whole world. But he looks like Ed Schultz.

So, um, no.

78 Malkin's got the whole Instant Internet Expert thing going on with vaccinations - one of her recurring arguments for her child not being vaccinated was "what are the odds of ...." . She then proceeded to control for every variable which might lead to exposure to a virus I found that very few people on either side of the argument manage to mention the Center for Disease Controls Guidelines for Immunizations. Including contraindications. I'm all for parents asking the doctor if there are reasons to not give a vaccine (e.g. allergic to eggs, prior problem, et cetera.) but ... yeeeeesshhhhh - kids used to ** die ** from chicken pox. They still do. Just not as often. - What's odd is the probability game. IF your kid in unvaccinated and gets chicken pox - they have a 1 in 1,000 chance of a bad complication and a 1 in 10,000 of dying. IF your kid IS vaccinated - there's a 1 in 100,000 chance of a bad complication and 1 in 1,000,000 of dying. so, which is the riskier proposition? -

79 Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

80 "Small government" isn't the same as "no government". There are some legitimate powers of government and it seems preventing communicable diseases from running wild would be one of them.

However, as I was trying to argue. Not every communicable disease is communicable enough to warrant mandatory vaccination.

81 Is there a video of the speech Radtke gave?  Let us decide how drunk she was.

82 The government does not have in this case sufficient argument that your decision to remain unvaccinated places the public at undue risk. And therefore they should not have the right to mandate that you be vaccinated.


Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at August 25, 2011 01:29 PM (
.........

Well, states can, and do, act differently than the feds as far as mandates go.. let's not forget  that.

If the citizens of a state decide that is something they want, and they give an opt-out to anyone not liking it, I have no problem.

83 Carter Wrenn vs. Erickson's paymasters.  By the time this matter is over, entire continents will be laid to waste, figuratively speaking, of course.

Ace,  read up on Wrenn.

84 OT but I am taking an online required course on the Federal Anti-Kickback law as it relates to health care.  Great googily moogily no frickin' wonder this shit is so expensive.  Each statement ends with the line "These practices must comply fully with federal requirements and can't benefit private organizations unless they benefit federal healthcare programs." 

And who the hell decides these "federal requirements" and how much paperwork is required in each g-d instance.  We're doomed if we don't change this shit..

85 "Small government" isn't the same as "no government". There are some legitimate powers of government and it seems preventing communicable diseases from running wild would be one of them.

However, as I was trying to argue. Not every communicable disease is communicable enough to warrant mandatory vaccination.

For instance, how many kids do you know who get vaccinated for rabies when they go to school?

86 IF your kid in unvaccinated and gets chicken pox - they have a 1 in 1,000 chance of a bad complication and a 1 in 10,000 of dying.

IF your kid IS vaccinated - there's a 1 in 100,000 chance of a bad complication and 1 in 1,000,000 of dying.

so, which is the riskier proposition?

- Posted by: BumperStickerist

Nobody told me I'd have to understand math to read this blog.

87 Hold on.  Malkin is against vaccines regardless of their relationship with Governement?

88 I watched this developing with a WTF, dog watching TV impression of the whole thing. 

Plenty of stupid shit being tossed out of the cages.

89 Inside baseball.

Some people think they are more important than they are, I am shocked to find this out.

Meh.

90 what's the Dan Riehl equivalent of a Very Important Statement and Action Alert? Ace - En Fuego re: Chris Bowers. -

91 >>>The government generally should not have the power to inject what it sees fit into your body good for you or not It doesn't. But if you want to send your kids to a government school they can't be friggin' smallpox vectors. Homeschool them, if you like. If you're really frigging hot on exposing your kids to a series of diseases which -- this is not some liberal "theory," this is fucking fact -- KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND LEFT MILLIONS OF OTHERS OTHERS BRAIN DAMAGED OR PARALYZED. So like if you're super hot to "Let God Be Your Innoculator" or whatever it is you think will protect your kid from diseases which used to kill 100,000s of thousands of people every decade, then homeschool. There are ALWAYS opt-outs. There was a simple objection slip needed to get out of Perry's anti-cervical-cancer vaccine, for example. But the anti-vaccine brigade does not want to do "opt-outs" because it makes them look "weird;" for the good reason they are. But they don't want to look weird, so they want to normalize and standardize and routinize their deadly-disease-courting lifestyle choices. No thanks. I'll give you an opt-out, but I'm not going to fucking unleash smallpox back on the planet just to avoid your feeling "weird" about not vaccinating your kids against diseases which vaccines have mostly, but not completely, eradicated from the planet earth. By the way, the nonsense that started this, a scientist claiming that vaccines caused problems, writing in the British leftist medical journal The Lancet? Yeah, he was exposed as a fraud who invented all his data and the Lancet has retracted and condemned its own article. So, this is now entirely faith based.

92

If we're having a blogwar, then I call the trident!

93 Thank Gaia Red State and Radtke and Riehl haven't got anything else more important to discuss. Like a certain stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

94 Ace - on fire sorry - link didn't take the first time. -

95 But, instead, they are throwing their shit at each other over something stupid and totally inconsequential.

Posted by: progressoverpeace at August 25, 2011 01:23 PM (F5tJy)

A-fucking-men on that.  You'd think that El JEFe declaring they're no longer deporting illegal cocksuckers who've run astray of the law would be a big fucking deal to these shitheads.  Instead Rove is aiming all his fucking nerf shells at Palin and Perry as usual.

What?  A backdoor amnesty?  No wonder that fat turd isn't raising the fucking roof.

96 89 Hold on.  Malkin is against vaccines regardless of their relationship with Government?

Is it that autism caused by vaccines preserved with mercury crap?

97

1 in 10,000 of dying.

Is that the first chance, second chance 9,999th chance?

I'll go with the vaccination.

98 If we're having a blogwar, then I call the trident! Thunderblog! Three nerds enter, one nerd leaves.

99 Well, states can, and do, act differently than the feds as far as mandates go.. let's not forget  that.

If the citizens of a state decide that is something they want, and they give an opt-out to anyone not liking it, I have no problem.

First off, just because a State has the power to do something, doesn't mean that doing it is *right* thing to do QED Romneycare mandates.

If a State wanted to, as a matter of public health, encourage vaccination by offering it at reduced cost, I would probably be OK. Telling folks they have to get it is an overstep in this case.

100 Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 01:29 PM (Xm1aB)

I agree with most of what you said.  And that's all I'm going to say about it.

101 Wut? Next week on Guiding Light...

102 Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at August 25, 2011 01:33 PM (0q2P7)

Agreed. HPV isn't the same as Polio or Whooping Cough.

103 I for one support no vaccinations, and the anti-vac side of things. So what if some diseases spread like wildfire and people need education? No government is best. Go Malkin!

104 Sigh. Everyone would benefit from growing a thicker skin. Gonna be a long 14 months.

105

46--so, unlike Gov Perry, who now admits his Gardasil edict was wrong, you believe the state should  mandate that young girls be vaccinated against STDs? So, "small government conservatives" like you are ok with that? hmmmmm

 I'm guessing you don't have kids, which is probably a good thing.

106 Two Malkin statements to contrast:

"Look, I’m no anti-vaccine absolutist. Both my children have received multiple injections of Prevnar, DTaP, and Hib. My beef is with the physicians who are unwilling to discuss the risks of vaccines, the pro-vaccination groups that provide incorrect information about the duration of protection, and the physicians who refuse to care for children who are not “fully” vaccinated. I also have a beef with the policymakers who pass laws barring children from school if they have not received the Hep B vaccine."
Aug 4 2004

"I canÂ’t speak to the risk/benefit tradeoff in Brazil, but if you live in the U.S., the risk of experiencing serious side effects from MMR exceeds the risk of a serious adverse health outcome from mumps, measles, or rubella."

Aug 28, 2004

107 It is ironic that the reason people even feel comfortable not having their kids vaccinated against diseases which used to kill thousands of children (or leave them paralyzed) is that.... um, the vaccines have wiped the diseases out, 99.9% of the way, so they don't typically see other peoples children in wheelchairs or brain damaged from smallpox.

108 O/T

I am in SC at beach, waiting for a hurricane that did not show up, obviously a democrat. 

My Perry bumper sticker is a hit.  Have given away 10.

Order them up.  http://tinyurl.com/3h8mtq4

109

Is that the first chance, second chance 9,999th chance?

I'll go with the vaccination.

This is kind of like a helmet law argument. Most sane folks who ride motorcycles know helmets save lives, and, that riding without one is ludicrously unsafe. But, having that decision taken away, is not proper function of government.

110 Maybe we can finally settle the longbow vs. crossbow debate.

Home Alone Scream:
http://tinyurl.com/3kzwx9h

111
Hello again, loyal subjects and peons,

Just want to touch base with my peeps. Still your beloved leader; still fighting the rats and pigs.

-Best wishes,
Uncle Mo

112 Is there a vaccination to prevent stupidity? I see a few candidates. posting here. You know who you are, the people against any vaccine that could prevent an STD.
Neo Puritans.
Let me think about this for a second, what's proven more effective, prayer or vaccination? Or maybe God just loves your child SO MUCH that He wanted him in heaven NOW.
Like I said before, that makes two of us who don't care about your children.

113
However, as I was trying to argue. Not every communicable disease is communicable enough to warrant mandatory vaccination.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at August 25, 2011 01:33 PM (0q2P7)

It wasn't mandatory.  There was an opt-out.

114 Any time there is a hint of something going on in the conservative circles you can bet your ass Ben Smith and Politico (the NYT of the internet) will be glad to exploit it.

We should all be boycotting Politico anyway.

115

I think Dan Riehl is crazy. I stopped reading his blog because of the Palin issue. I've made it clear I life her but am not voting for her just so my cards are on the table.

But Dan will accept nothing but total submission to and support of Sarah Palin.

He's like the detective who thinks the lover committed the murder and then only pays attention to or looks for evidence that confirms his theory and ignores evidence that discredits it.

Well Dan Riehl does the same thing with Palin. Any observation, regardless of how objective is total BS in his opinion or ever a consipiracy of another candidate.

And all candidates who are not Sarah Palin are not "true conservative" who have tons of flaws. On that last point, all candidates have flaws, except for one in Dan's mind.

I also seem to remember Dan being pretty dickish to all conservative bloggers not on the COD train. And regardless of whether or not you were on board with Castle or COD, it didn't need to go scorched earth as Dan did.

my two cents.

116 re: Helmet laws - I'd address that problem through insurance. If you don't wear a helmet or seat-belt, and get in an accident, you get one-tenth of the benefits. Same with life insurance - die as a result, your heirs get a lot less money. -

117 Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

118 based on Taylork's post, I have to retract my statements against Malkin -- she is not an anti-vax absolutist. She is against the MMR vaccines but presumably not the other common ones. I got that wrong. Sorry.

119

This is kind of like a helmet law argument. Most sane folks who ride motorcycles know helmets save lives, and, that riding without one is ludicrously unsafe. But, having that decision taken away, is not proper function of government.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at August 25, 2011 01:40 PM (0q2P7)

Again there is an opt-out according to ace...

120 However, as I was trying to argue. Not every communicable disease is communicable enough to warrant mandatory vaccination.

There's emerging evidence that it can be spread through blood transfusions.

And since Texas doesn't mandate any vaccine, that's a moot point.

121 This is kind of like a helmet law argument. Most sane folks who ride motorcycles know helmets save lives, and, that riding without one is ludicrously unsafe. But, having that decision taken away, is not proper function of government.

Two words to say to anyone about wearing a helmet: Gary Busey

122 Radkte is starting to sound a lot like O'Donnell.

Just sayin

123 Update on "the poll". Poll is over 4200 votes now and Perry has > 3100 votes.

124 "leaving her integrity and intellect at the door" in her anti-vaccine activism -- and I gotta tell you, I do not get the anti-vaccine stuff and never ever will

Let me pile on with some others.  MM is not "anti-vaccine", she is pro-liberty.

Vaccine mandate = Obamacare individual mandate.

125 like*  not life

126 Posted by: glowing blue meat at August 25, 2011 01:39 PM (K/USr)

Where did I say that?

I would agree that HPV isn't something that needs to be vaccinated against.

Do you think kids should be requried to get vaccinated against Polio, Whooping Cough and Diphtheri?

127 that said I don't get this strange idea that it's better to be exposed to the risk of cervical cancer via HPV (which like 40% of women contract at some point) rather than get a harmless jab in the arm.

128 Oh good.. your kids get to share lunch tables with the no vaccines kids.. thanks for volunteering!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at August 25, 2011 01:26 PM (f9c2L)

It's rare that I agree with you on anything, but you are bang spot on this time.  Vaccination is the reason a significant number of us are alive and not using crutches.  You can argue about which diseases are serious enough for inclusion or exclusion, which is valid in the Perry instance, but for serious shit like polio and smallpox, it's the only way to eradicate them as part of a valid and responsible public health policy.

129 "I canÂ’t speak to the risk/benefit tradeoff in Brazil, but if you live in the U.S., the risk of experiencing serious side effects from MMR exceeds the risk of a serious adverse health outcome from mumps, measles, or rubella."

My pediatrician told us not to vaccinate for mumps.

130 @128 Really? I didn't hear about the opt-out from Obamacare.

131 67 What's the email address to send Ace an article link?

Posted by: MrObvious at August 25, 2011 01:30 PM (qwhLZ)

Last time I sent him an email it was aceofspadeshq at gmail dot com.

132 I also seem to remember Dan being pretty dickish to all conservative bloggers not on the COD train. Uh oh. You mentioned COD. That makes longbows vs. crossbows look like a discussion about the weather.

133 I care deeply about this issue and especially its tiny nuances and particulars.

134 I didn't hear about the opt-out from Obamacare.

Nebraska got a pass... plus a ton of unions... and McDonalds...

135 1 in 10,000 of dying.

We had something like 34,000 road fatalities in 2010 - the lowest in decades, I believe.  That means, thumbnailing it, everyone who rides in cars has a 1 in 9,000 chance of dying - every single year - just for getting into a car and being driven around.

I'm not anti-vaccine, though I am against it being forced in cases where it is not a real public health issue but a "for the children" issue, but the way these odds get thrown around is fairly sloppy.

136 >>>Let me pile on with some others. MM is not "anti-vaccine", she is pro-liberty. People have the liberty to do all sorts of bad things to their kids. That does not mean it should be normal, routine, or encouraged to do so. Vaccines are generally opt-outable. The anti-vac people don't even want to have to go through the trifle of having to sign a release. tough shit. Sign the release and stop whining.

137 Posted by: Ben at August 25, 2011 01:42 PM (wuv1c)

I got that kind of impression too.  Riehl's one of those fire-and-brimstone men of righteousness, which pretty much is 90% of Hot Air posters these days.

138 that said I don't get this strange idea that it's better to be exposed to the risk of cervical cancer via HPV (which like 40% of women contract at some point) rather than get a harmless jab in the arm.

She thinks that she has super human parenting skills, wherein her kids will never do anything stupid.

139 There's emerging evidence that it can be spread through blood transfusions.

There's plenty of evidence how flu is spread.  Hey, let's mandate flu shots.

140 122 Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at August 25, 2011 01:42 PM (pV6cO)

In the end, that's all there is.

141 Oh, goodie!  A cyber-Cat Fight!

142 MM is also wrong about the statistics. the risk of experiencing serious side effects from MMR exceeds the risk of a serious adverse health outcome from mumps, measles, or rubella." Getting the Mumps, Measles or Rubella is, in itself is a serious "side effect" that is not included in the reporting. With vaccination - getting a fever is considered a serious side effect. so the "serious side effects" are not done apples-to-apples. . vaccinations ain't perfect, but they sure as hell work. /

143 @139 So, you're saying all I have to do is sign a slip of paper to get out of Obamacare like Perry's vaccine program allowed Texas parents to do?

144 Sign the release and stop whining.

In order to attend schools you have to have the vaccinations done

145 How is it that every time this Perry-Vaccine issue comes up, someone here repeats this provably false "mandate" talking point?

There was an opt-out.  Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

146

>>>Do you think kids should be requried to get vaccinated against Polio, Whooping Cough and Diphtheri?

Do they still give Polio Vaccines? I thought those have been phased out.

147 Hanging out at the TEmple of Zuul,  CNN, doesn't make very confident of Ericson's judgement, is there actually any footage of this event, or do we have to take his word for it, as with much of Politico.

148 There was definitely an opt-out with Gardasil. A parent only had to sign a form stating he or she had a philosophical, moral, religious, or medical objection to the innocculation. That's it. Sign a form.

149 Sign the release and stop whining.

(full disclosure: my kids get vaccinated).  Let me say this to that though, pay for my kids vaccinations and stop whining.

150

>>>How is it that every time this Perry-Vaccine issue comes up, someone here repeats this provably false "mandate" talking point?

Johnny, don't worry about it. It's always the same people who do, or "new posters".

Also, awesome work on the SCFOAMF posters!

151 >>>In order to attend schools you have to have the vaccinations done Not for Gardasil, which prompted this latest anti-vax stuff.

152
This thread reminds me of that scene in Requiem For A Dream the story about that 64yo guy in KY who went in to the hospital for a circumcision and left without a penis.

153 I'd like to have George Allen in VA just to stab that asswipe Webb in the eye. So that means supporting an establishment candidate. Sometimes, establishment candidates are the best choice. Often, evaluating candidates based on their ability is a better thing to do than evaluating them based on whether or not they're "establishment" candidates.

154 So, you're saying all I have to do is sign a slip of paper to get out of Obamacare like Perry's vaccine program allowed Texas parents to do? When I wave the magic executive order pen I can eliminate Obamacare, if you will elect me. It's just so simple. But don't try to evade your responsibility as a paying citizen if you live in Massachusetts.

155 Quit dry-humping your strawman, MiketheMoose. It wasn't mandatory. And if the issue is just that you think, like Malkin and Jenny McCarthy that vaccines are bad in general, then the problem is that you're willfully ignorant. Kids in Britian have DIED because of that fraudulent study and that stupid McCarthy bitch. From diseases that NOBODY dies from anymore.

156 "I canÂ’t speak to the risk/benefit tradeoff in Brazil, but if you live in the U.S., the risk of experiencing serious side effects from MMR exceeds the risk of a serious adverse health outcome from mumps, measles, or rubella."

Aug 28, 2004

Posted by: taylork at August 25, 2011 01:39 PM (5wsU9)

And she would know, how, exactly? And she's written tons of articles blasting libs being anti-science. Come on, MM.

157 @154 Oh geeeese, if you want a driver's license to go out and operate tons of steel on public highways, you have to pay some fees. Why should it be any different when talking about vaccines that protect the public?

158 Let's stay out of this blog war.  I hate blog wars.  I don't know most of the players and even when I'm familiar with them, I rarely feel like I "know" them well enough to take a side. 

Arguing about content is one thing, but when it starts turning personal - based on behind the scenes interactions and settling old "scores" - it gets out of hand really quickly.


Oh, and MM has been way off-base re Perry. 

159 Wait a minute. Did somebody say that kids are now vaccinated for chicken pox? Or did they mean smallpox?

Because back in my fin de Boomer day getting chicken pox was a rite of passage, and mothers commonly exposed their kids to it on purpose in order to see they got it early, because everybody knew it was only serious if you got it as an adult, and once you had it you were thereafter immune. Moreover, it was no worse than a case of poison oak.

So I'd have to say that if they're vaccinating for chicken pox, perhaps they are overdoing it a little.

160 There's plenty of evidence how flu is spread.  Hey, let's mandate flu shots.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 01:46 PM (4nfy2)

They've REALLY wanted to mandate flu shots (with the annual scare stories about how bird/pig/frog/... flu was going to take out 1.4 billion).  The problem is that the only part of ShrillaryCare that ever got implemented was the "For The Children" vaccine takeover by the feral government, after which the vaccine industry collapsed and the feral government has never had the vaccines available in a timely fashion to be able to force people to take it.

161

I've been a fan of MM for a long time, but her anti-Vax writing has been frustrating me for just as long.

I get the irritation with the government telling you what you should or should not do about your health.  If I was threatened by Uncle Sam against eating ice cream or forced to have elective surgery, I'd be just as rankled.  But we accept a public health measure like vaccination because it stops diseases that are spread by others; your choice to ignore your health can directly impact those around you.  Plus, since vaccination is about as unintrusive a medical procedure as you could hope. 

The problem is that so much of the anti-vax movement is built on awful cases:  Bad science, appeals to authority or emotion, bad math, ignoring basic functions of human nature.  I could go on.  But conservatives tend to get on board with this because of the libertarian "keep the government out of my immune system" angle, and I think that is a huge mistake. 

162 @158 I thought Webb wasn't running.

163 I'm not gonna jump on the bash Michelle bandwagon even though I thought her vaccine column was overwrought and near hysterical.

She's been in the trenches fighting for our side for a long time and she gets a little leeway with me even though I disagree with her on this "issue."

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 01:29 PM (Xm1aB)

I agree...and it's not like persons here haven't been way off in left field on occasion...*cough*TARP*cough*.

Part of the problem with forced immunization these days is government lobbying...you just don't know if the government has taken a payoff from Big Pharma to enact this legislation so they can make big bucks...only later to find that it has side effects nobody knew about. 

You can't trust the government....they are bent and corrupt and they are not acting in your interests, they are acting in their own interests.

164

Perry didn't get in trouble for mandating vaccinations against small pox or measles. These diseases are highly contagious and rip through small children like wild fire. Obviously not so for genital warts and cervical cancer--which is what Perry's Gardasil mandate was allegedly aimed at.

Perry's Gardasil disaster was either misguided nannystatism, or it was a favor for Merck, a major corporate backer. Neither explanation is attractive to this small government conservative.

I guess the blogger's enthusiasm for small government will return when the subject changes back to regulation of marijuana.

165 How many of you Morons remember the old iron lung? How many have actually seen one?

They used to be quite common in the 50s. I remember visiting a relative of mine who virtually lived in one.

So why were they common in the 50s?

Polio.

So why do you not see them now?

Guess

166 156 >>>In order to attend schools you have to have the vaccinations done


Not for Gardasil, which prompted this latest anti-vax stuff.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 01:49 PM (nj1bB)

Yea, your right. sorry

167

>>>Kids in Britian have DIED because of that fraudulent study and that stupid McCarthy bitch. From diseases that NOBODY dies from anymore

 

She was good in BASEketball

168 The anti-vaccine folks are nuts.  Period.

Dan Riehl is a joke who "punches up" at more popular figures to get attention.  There's no reason to read his blog at all anymore, unless you harbor some misconception about conservatives necessarily having integrity.

169

I diverge from MM on the vaccine thing.  The opt out is all I would have needed as a parent, but my wife and I did decide to get that vaccine for our teen daughter.  Although it was a decision we made carefully, the prevention of certain types of common cancer seemed like it was worth it.  Perry making it mandatory allowed for the government and insurance companies to pay for it, making it accessible to more Texans than if it were merely reccomended. 

The worst part of the mandate in my mind is Perry's ties to Merck and whether there was some campaign contributions made in exchange for the executive order.  Perry beholden to powerful business interests is a concern, but you don't get elected without the sway of powerful business interests.   

 

170
the man, who is illeterate btw, sued the doctor

he lost the lawsuit -- the doctor saved the man's rotten penis as evidence that it was best to remove it

171 There was an opt-out. Jesus Tapdancing Christ. I always pictured Jesus as more of a waltz or foxtrot kind of guy. Now, Buddha? He made Gene Kelly look like Abe Vigoda.

172 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 01:49 PM (lbo6/)

I think this makes about ten slapdown posts.  These moron pileups sure are brutal.

I wonder how the hell Malkin got so worked up about Gardasil if there wasn't a mandate in the first place.  Don't really want to read her site.  Writing is too one-note for my tastes.

173
the moral of the story: wash your penis

or it will rot

and have to be removed

174

that said I don't get this strange idea that it's better to be exposed to the risk of cervical cancer via HPV (which like 40% of women contract at some point) rather than get a harmless jab in the arm.

Well, it depends.  I fall into a group for which the vaccination is contraindicated due to the risk of serious side effects.  Thus, I won't get it for myself.  The risks outweigh the benefits.  Also it's important to point out that the vaccine does not guard against all types of HPV and doesn't prevent all types of cervical cancer.  Please note that I'm not saying it's pointless or that the costs always outweigh the benefits, it simply drives me nuts to read/hear people talking like this is some kind of magic bullet.  It's not. 

175 How is it that every time this Perry-Vaccine issue comes up, someone here repeats this provably false "mandate" talking point?

How come many people don't understand this is about vaccines?  Its about over-zealous ever expanding govt.

But let me take your mandate point for a second.  3 shots @$120 per shot, forced to be covered by insurance.  Do you see a mandate yet?  guess who pays higher insurance premiums?  Everybody.  Its a payment mandate whether you see it or not.

PS - Rick Perry now agrees with me.

176 the moral of the story: wash your penis After all, it's not like it isn't fun.

177

By the way, getting vaccinated isn't an issue with merely individual implications. 

Whether or not one gets vaccinated has implications on the ability for the ailment in question to spread throughout the society at large.

178 That's it. Sign a form.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 01:48 PM (nj1bB)

Why? What the hell is there need of a form to opt-out for?  Who is being protected by this form?  The kids?  The government can't be sued, so what is this form about?

And what do the reasons someone opts out of the vaccination have to do with anything?  Why are any of them even mentioned?

I don't get any of this.

179 Posted by: glowing blue meat at August 25, 2011 01:51 PM (K/USr)

Good grief, some people just don't get the message.

180 Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 01:45 PM (nj1bB)

IMO, there was more than a dash of self righteous indignation cast toward Perry from MM.  To put it mildly, she thought he should pay with his head.  Hell, even in hindsight I could see why Perry might have made the decision he did.  It's a damned devastating disease.  He said he made a mistake.  I'll give him half a mistake, at best.

181 I WANT THEM BOTH TO LOSE.

Seriously, I don't know who is more loathsomely stupid and self-promoting, Dan Riehl or the group of wannabe-players over at RedState.

Blow 'em both up, sez I.

182 Rick Perry's "apology" for his executive order mandating the vaccination of all sixth grade schoolgirls was a big surprise to the Texas state legislators that over-ruled the over-reaching Governor.  Rick Perry all but accused them of being cancer-loving ghouls up to the moment Rick  wandered into NH earlier this month.

  I thought Mitt was the master of the flip-flop, but compared to Rick Perry, he's a piker. Just this week, Rick was telling a critic to "read his book", while Rick's campaign manager was telling reporters to ignore the book's Social Security message that SSI was "unconstitutional".

The reason Rick Perry likes to hold up both of his arms is because he needs all ten fingers to figure out which way the political wind is blowing.

183 my dad contracted polio when he was a teenager - got back the use of his legs thanks to that hot-towel treatment developed by, I think, a nun. He's fine - his legs are about three inches shorter than you'd expect for a man his height. As a 4th grader I caught the chickenpox just before Christmas break - the neighbors arranged a sleepover so their kids could have chickenpox too during the vacation rather than in January. ... this was not too long ago. . and I had a classmate die due to complications of Rubella. suburban Philly - not out in the sticks. Buyer's remorse - it also occurs in the anti-vaccination ideology. -

184 Quit dry-humping your strawman, MiketheMoose.

It wasn't mandatory.

To get the exemption form, parents must first submit a written form to State Health Department in Austin which forces the disclosure of the childÂ’s full name, birthdate, and mailing address. The Health Department takes those written requests and creates yet another form on which they print the childÂ’s same personal information that the parent had to send to health department, and the Health Department sometimes takes weeks to mail out these forms. The Health Department only sends the forms by U.S. mail, and once the parent receives the forms, they must be notarized within 90 days of submitting them and then repeatedly resubmitted every 2 years

Sorry EOJ, if that's your excuse of an "Opt Out" you don't understand liberty very well.

185 But let me take your mandate point for a second.  3 shots @$120 per shot, forced to be covered by insurance.  Do you see a mandate yet?  guess who pays higher insurance premiums?  Everybody.  Its a payment mandate whether you see it or not.

PS - Rick Perry now agrees with me.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 01:53 PM (4nfy2)

That's a hell of an oblique way to justify your continued ravaging of this dead horse.

186 I knew you'd all come crawling back to me.

You are crawling back, right?

187 This isn't just a circular firing squad, it's a spiral. One shot from the outside clips dozens at a time.

188

I gotta tell you, I do not get the anti-vaccine stuff and never ever will

It's not anti-vaccine.  It's anti-FORCED VACCINATION, Ace.  The HPV vaccine is still very new, and potential long-term adverse effects unknown, so folks reasonably balked at being required to vaccinate their daughters.  Anytime people start talking about treatments that are tied to the reproductive system, particularly the female reproductive system, average folks get skittish and immediately think of armless thalidomide babies.  It's not an unreasonable fear when you consider that there have been many instances of medications being withdrawn from the market for unforeseen effects, thalidomide being one of them.   

Give the HPV vaccine a few more years of mainstream use with few if any birth defects or damaging effects to women's reproductive health and the pushback will be greatly reduced.  Voluntary vaccinations will go up, and eventually mandatory HPV vaccinations (ala TB, polio, etc) will be accepted.

189 Sign the release and stop whining.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 01:45 PM (nj1bB)

My son's pediatrician had a sign in his office that said if a parent refuses the recommended vaccination schedule for children, then he would refuse to have that child as a patient.

I didn't have a problem with it, being pro-vaccination, but I thought it was interesting.

190 Do they still give Polio Vaccines? I thought those have been phased out.
Posted by: Ben at August 25, 2011 01:47 PM (wuv1c)

It's still on the recommended list.

I think Small Pox shots were phased out.

191 Yeah, the only thing unsettling about this discussion is I find myself in the Charles Johnson camp. I hate that.

192 I hope it doesn't devolve into rapper like warfare.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at August 25, 2011 01:17 PM (GKQDR)

*snort*

193 That's a hell of an oblique way to justify your continued ravaging of this dead horse.

I am trying to revive that dead horse, I named him Liberty.  Lets hope he is not dead yet.

194 Everyone just post their dicks on the internet and let's move on.

195 @193 It wasn't mandatory, so those with the concerns you touch on could opt-out.

196 >>>I think Small Pox shots were phased out.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of, thanks!

197 Everyone just post their dicks on the internet and let's move on. All this time I thought we were enemies!

198 OT: Latest Gallup just released has it 41-50.  Libya bump?

199

I liked Michelle until her recent anti-Perry bash and vaccine hoo-ha. I have noticed a tone in her for the past year or so of "my way or the highway." I don't care if she does not like Perry, as I don't vote based on her opinion, but she is going too far as a purist. She has become rabid on Hannity (which I never watch but caught her last night). She is basing her support on perfection (aka Bachman) and "their record." She will possibly encourage all to stay home, which will be the wrong thing to do.

What conservative bloggers need to know with their little wars is this: they will be giving liberal Democrats exactly what they desire, an impolosion and division of the GOP. The libs are sure not "winning the future" with Obama these days, so they hope for a divided party.

No candidate is perfect. I will vote for whoever is left standing after the GOP Convention. I do hope, right now, this person is Rick Perry.

200 Yeah, the only thing unsettling about this discussion is I find myself in the Charles Johnson camp. I hate that. Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 01:58 PM (Xm1aB) since you're there, could you maybe punch Kilgore Trout in his face, just a little? . I condemn myself for the violent - if metaphorical - scene above. .

201 I am trying to revive that dead horse, I named him Liberty.  Lets hope he is not dead yet.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 01:59 PM (4nfy2)

Oh yeah?  I'm for America and apple pie.  And the children.  Take that.

202 This isn't just a circular firing squad, it's a spiral. One shot from the outside clips dozens at a time.

What was that movie where Angelina Jolie did the curved shot that got about 10 people including herself.  That was one hell of a bullet.  But yeah, this post feels like that.

203 I don't even argue the HPV vaccine thing anymore.It's useless.Perry has many,many positives,everyone has negatives(even if you don't consider this particular thing a negative).

204 Of for Gawd's sake. They all need a time out and to stand in a corner for and hour.

Some may be required to wear a dunce cap.

205
It's not anti-vaccine.  It's anti-FORCED VACCINATION, Ace.  The HPV vaccine is still very new, and potential long-term adverse effects unknown, so folks reasonably balked at being required to vaccinate their daughters. .....

The CDC recommends the vaccination for both girls and boys.

And it was never mandatory. Which part of "opt out" don't people understand?

206 I was just reading about the HMS Jersey. Look that up if you didn't know (I didn't). Google "Jersey prison ship." It was a British prison ship during the revolutionary war, mostly for captured privateers. They so overcrowded the ship, and let the prisoners lie in filth and choke underdecks from stifling heat and lack of air-flow, that 11 to 13,500 Patriot soldiers and seamen died on that ship (and its three satellite "hospital" ships) in just five or so years. 11 to 13,500. It's amazing this isn't mentioned more. Double the whole casualty count for actual Patriot battle deaths. Anyway, they had to self-innoculate against smallpox. The British didn't bother doing it, and the ships were filled with every disease imaginable. So they'd just wait for a guy's smallpox to go into the dying/drying out phase, take a needle, stick in in the pus, and jab themselves with it. They would contract smallpox but in a mild, controlled way, and be rid of it and innoculated in two weeks.

207 Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at August 25, 2011 01:56 PM (0q2P7)

You send them a paper, they send you a paper, you get it notarized.  Oh the humanity. 

This wasn't a good idea in the first place but it is neither a "mandate" nor something that should have got MM in a tizzy.

208 >>>It's not anti-vaccine. It's anti-FORCED VACCINATION, Ace. "FORCED" has now been redefined to mean "I feel a small amount of social pressure and am COERCED into signing a one-paragraph release/opt-out form. No PATRIOT should be forced to sign a release form."

209 Polio(IPV) vaccines are still given.  If you don't get one you are foolish.

210 I don't know Radtke from Adam's housecat. Allen was my Senator, and he wasn't perfect, and he got screwed by the Washington Post, but not sure that I would want to see him back in office. I would, with no other information, just as soon have a Tea Party candidate. But looks like someone is intent on recreating the Christine O'Donnell thing all over again. And remember - that started on the Right, not the Left. Once someone tars her with unelectability she will be unelectable.

211 Funny how Mr. Small Government "glowing blue meat" won't say if he supports requiring Polio vaccination but wants to talk about decriminalizing pot.

Good to know your priorities dude.

212 It wasn't mandatory, so those with the concerns you touch on could opt-out.

Argghh. My last post on this.  Your insurance premiums are mandatory if you have insurance.

Yoshi, I agree, lets have some pie.

213 If we're having a blog war, can I be in charge of the trebuchets?

^Please?

214

Radtke can't raise any money.  While she has a TEA party platform for domestic issues (& that is a good thing), it is very, very narrow.  I don't know what foreign policy platform she has.

She has no prayer of winning the primary next year.  George F. Allen could die & Jamie would still not win the primary.

215 I had no idea that Michelle Malkin was actually anti-vax in general.  Wow.  That's the last time I ever afford her even the slightest amount of respect.  As far as I'm concerned she's no better than a pile of dogshit now, just like all the other anti-vax freaks.

I mean, if she's simply not a fan of Perry's particular HPV vaccine thing, that would one (overwrought, but okayish) thing.  But if she's actually in the Jenny McCarthy bandwagon?  Fuck her, forever.  She's an enemy of the human race -- and the amazing thing is, that's literally true!

216 @217 I glad it's your last post because you are confused.

217

>>>>Which part of "opt out" don't people understand?

I'm guessing the words "opt-out" .

218 It wasn't mandatory, so those with the concerns you touch on could opt-out.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:00 PM (Xm1aB)

Yes, but it would have been smarter and less politically divisive to have an opt-IN for the outset, until fears had had an opportunity to settle.  A family could have then opted-in to having their daughter vaccinated at cost to the state.  It would have been much cleaner, and the paperwork would have been a heckuva lot less.

And while cervical cancer is a terrible, devastating condition, it isn't at the same contagion level as something like TB.  When you have many children together in one building, it only makes sense to require vaccinations against things like TB, mumps, whooping cough, etc.  HPV?  Not so much.  It should be a judgment call for parents, without any state intervention.

 

219 We're baaaaaaack.

220 @220 You're wrong, ace already corrected this erroneous suggestion.

221 Is the Radtke video available online?  I have a highly trained ear for female intoxication.

222 How about all these blogmasters who fancy themselves kingmakers go fuck themselves?

I am a little tired of all the mindless, self-promoting tripe and hyperbolic prognostication.

Redstate supported Radtke without really knowing who she was. They play footsie with leakers like folks at the RSG during the debt debate. They want to see themselves as "influential" when they really don't "influence" a large cross section of the electorate that is fairly conservative, but staunchly independent.

Inject some freakin sanity and realism into your thoughts. Nobody really likes the establishment Republicans except a few has-been's and wannabes. But the guys at RS make themselves look like idiots with this crap and in the end loss credibility.

223 If we're having a blog war, can I be in charge of the trebuchets? I like the part where you get to pour hot oil down the castle crenellations. You can have beef fondue with the oil for a quick mid-battle snack.

224 I spend all my time making people drunk and stupid when they give speeches just to undermine them.

It's just my thing.

Oh, and I eat children.

225 Posted by: Guy Fawkes at August 25, 2011 02:04 PM (4nfy2)

I'll drink to that.

226 @223 I don't disagree with what you say. I was simply pointing out, yet again, as have many other morons, that this was not "mandatory."

227 Creepy neeeeeeeeeeeew thread

228 Pfft. When blog authors fight it's a war! When we do it's every damn day. Speaking of vaccines and polio, everyone has heard of Jonas Salk but how many have heard of John Enders who one the Nobel Prize in 1954 for ground breaking work he did in cultivating the polio virus in a lab which made Salk's work possible. I'd advise those of you who don't like embryonic stem cell research not to look into his work. You won't be happy. Now this ought to bring on a real blog fight.

229

So Jaime Radtke leaks a confidential email...........and thinks the stink from that shit is not going to splash back and get all over her?

She can kiss her chances of ever being trusted for anything in the Senate, if she even had a chance to get that far.

What's she going to do now, say that her account was 'hacked'? This sort of thing never ends well. 

230 I glad it's your last post because you are confused.

Of?

231 If we're having a blog war, can I be in charge of the trebuchets?


Tree buckets? What do we need with tree buckets?


(Old D&D joke from my misspent youth.)

232 And it was never mandatory. Which part of "opt out" don't people understand?

Posted by: mpurinTexas, Evil Conservanatrix, supports Rick Perry, bitch at August 25, 2011 02:02 PM (ignDe)

Being forced to walk two miles uphill, both ways, in order to opt-out.  It is really coercion being called an opt-out.

I shouldn't have to sign anything to opt-out of something that "isn't mandatory".  People should have to sign things to request services that aren't mandatory.  But, government generally runs on the assumption of the "shitty parent" - i.e. parents are assumed guilty of being shitty parents until they prove themselves innocent.  This is how most invasive social programs are sold to America.  The "shitty parent" notion that Nanny Government has to replace.

233 The CDC recommends the vaccination for both girls and boys.

And it was never mandatory. Which part of "opt out" don't people understand?

Posted by: mpurinTexas, Evil Conservanatrix, supports Rick Perry, bitch at August 25, 2011 02:02 PM (ignDe)

The CDC recommends.  The Texax legislation REQUIRED it for girls.  There's a difference.

Look, I'm not anti-Perry.  I like him a lot.  But I think too many people are willing to just sweep this particular issue under the rug, and I'm not.  It wouldn't keep me from voting for him, but he doesn't get a hand-wave and a pass from me. 

234

Idle time, idle minds.

235 I yearn for smallpox

236 Wait, reading further down the thread it seems like I was wrong -- Malkin isn't an anti-vax absolutist.  Okay, she's no longer a pile of dog crap then.

Still...I do not trust her.

237 Sorry EOJ, if that's your excuse of an "Opt Out" you don't understand liberty very well. Thanks for conceding that it wasn't mandatory. I understand liberty just fine and you didn't seem to have a problem with me spending most of my twenties defending it, asshole. So your complaint is that, while IT'S NOT MANDATORY, you don't like the bureaucracy. Zip-a-dee-fucking-doo-dah. Join the fucking club, Captain Freedom.

238 Yeah, the only thing unsettling about this discussion is I find myself in the Charles Johnson camp. ------------------------------------------------------------ Charles Johnson has a camp? I knew it would come to this. Who is his congressman? Maybe we could get him to fly down to Johnsontown for a fact finding mission. I am sure Chuck would be open to a visit.

239 4,000 deaths/year from cervical cancer.
40,000 deaths/year from the flu.

Mandate the flu vaccine.

What, you have a problem with that?

240 It wouldn't keep me from voting for him, but he doesn't get a hand-wave and a pass from me. 

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at August 25, 2011 02:09 PM (4df7R)

Hear, hear.

241 @235 You insist, if I am reading you correctly, that this vaccine was mandatory. It explicitly was not. In other words, any parent who did not want to have their child receive the vaccine was provided a method for opting their child out. If you want to talk about he financial effects of the program, then fine, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the vaccination was never mandatory.

242 I occasionally checked out Red State and then one day they banned "birthers" from the site (this was well before the SCOAMFOTUS released his birth certificate). I wasn't/amn't a birther myself, and it's Red State's blog to do with as they please, but it struck me as a tad Charles Johnsonesque for my tastes. Also they called them "birfers" which was just a bridge too fey.

243 I was simply pointing out, yet again, as have many other morons, that this was not "mandatory."

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:07 PM (Xm1aB)

And I get that, Dave.  But if something isn't mandatory, it shouldn't require an "opt out."  It should be "voluntary" from the outset.  That's the fine line myself and other 'rons and 'ettes are not happy crossing. 

244 You're wrong, ace already corrected this erroneous suggestion.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:06 PM (Xm1aB)

Corrected what?

245 The Rick Perry-Gardisal fiasco could have been avoided if Perry had simply sent a bill to the Texas legislature that required HPV vaccination for admission to the sixth grade.   Instead, he went straight to the Executive Order route and fought the legislature every step of the way.   A man that committed to executive authority is not someone I'd trust to repeal ObamaCare.

246 No Dave you are not reading me correctly.  If everyone is forced to pay higher premiums because of some govt legislation, there is no opt out.  Its not about the vaccine.  Same reason premiums are going up with the new "free birth control" issued by HHS.

247 @249 That MM was anti-all-vaccinations.

248 That MM was anti-all-vaccinations.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:14 PM (Xm1aB)

Did you read those quotes from her in 2004? She strikes me as being a lot closer to Jenny McCarthy than not.

249 Resist we much!!!

250 @251 Just answer a simple question--could a parent prevent their child from receiving the vaccine under Perry's program?

251 since you're there, could you maybe punch Kilgore Trout in his face, just a little? Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 25, 2011 02:00 PM (h6mPj) Not sure of the reason, but KT has began spewing on the Austin Statesman comments beginning early this month... maybe he's decided to try to reach a larger audience than the 25 lgf faithful.

252 @253 No, I just read what was posted in this thread where she talked about her kids getting the normal school vaccinations.

253

Well my daughter just entered the 6th grade down here and she took the shot and she is still alive and kicking.

So that's that, as far as I am concerned.

254 A real opt out is not, put your kids on file with the department of health. It's signing a risk awareness and moving on when you enroll.This put your kids on file with the department of health is BS.

255

You know what?  I'll come out and say I think the HPV vaccine ought to be mandatory.  People freak out about new vaccines as if it was developed by some guy in a garage, and the FDA tells him, "Great!  Slap a label on that puppy and we'll start shipping to Walgreen's tomorrow."  There's a lot of safety and efficacy testing that goes into these things, and it's particularly significant for diseases like HPV where you can't just look at the outcome of "Did they get the disease or not?" afterwards. 

The typical time between a company first approaching the FDA with a new vaccine and the time it is approved for public use is generally about 10 years.  That includes three phases of clinical trials in which the safety and efficacy is examined under ridiculously rigorous scrutiny.  If a drug is to go public, that data has to be published, too, so anyone can comb through it and pick out inconsistencies, poor methodology, or shoddy reasoning for themselves. 

I'm not saying the system never fails.  But these days, if it does fail, it's typically because of things that you couldn't possibly factor in while trying to responsibly bring a product to market. 

And, in the end, I think the benefits of vaccination against HPV far outweigh the risks, or at least the consequences of infection.

256 Just answer a simple question--could a parent prevent their child from receiving the vaccine under Perry's program?

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:15 PM (Xm1aB)

Yes.

Could a parent opt out of paying for other people vaccinating their own children?

No.  Not if they pay health insurance premiums.

That's the point GF is making. 

257 256 ...stupid sock and lame formatting! /off

258

____ /\ _`\ \ \ \/\ \ _ __ __ ___ ___ __ \ \ \ \ \/\`'__\/'__`\ /' __` __`\ /'__`\ \ \ \_\ \ \ \//\ \L\.\_/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \L\.\_ \ \____/\ \_\\ \__/.\_\ \_\ \_\ \_\ \__/.\_\ \/___/ \/_/ \/__/\/_/\/_/\/_/\/_/\/__/\/_/ _____ /\ __`\ \ \ \/\ \ __ __ __ __ ___ ____ \ \ \ \ \/\ \/\ \ /'__`\ /'__`\/' _ `\ /',__\ \ \ \\'\\ \ \_\ \/\ __//\ __//\ \/\ \/\__, `\ \ \___\_\ \____/\ \____\ \____\ \_\ \_\/\____/ \/__//_/\/___/ \/____/\/____/\/_/\/_/\/___/

259 Look, I share the concerns about the vaccine issue. It should not have been mandatory, and in fact it was NOT. I agree an opt-in would have been better than an opt-out. And guess what? Rick Perry, in retrospect, has admitted it was a mistake.

260

Meh..this morning i read a bit of this nonsense in Ericsom's daily e-mail blast.

Almost fell asleep on the bowl. Good the thing the the bell rang for the coffee truck.

 

 

261 What do I have to do to get your attention? Start talking out of my cervix!?!? In China, because of the one child policy cervixes are the least of their problems! China builds better cervixes let me tell you. their cervixes are resistant to everything. I couldn't charm a Chinese cervix, and you know if I couldn't do it...

262 @261 I understood the "point" he was making. Yet he continued suggesting the vaccination was itself mandatory when it clearly wasn't. I guess some folks just like to obfuscate, and badly.

263 >>>Being forced to walk two miles uphill, both ways, in order to opt-out. It is really coercion being called an opt-out. You poor put upon broad-shouldered Patriots really can whine about shit sometimes. "I had to sign a standard bureaucratic release! It's like 1984!" This is your attempt to force your own paranoid, Ron Paul conception of not "limited government" but government with virtually no functions whatsoever on the rest of us, who are not in fact anarchists or minarchists but simply limited government supporters. You don't want to have to sign an opt-out, because then... YOU DON'T WIN in imposing your view of minarchism on your fellow citizens. Hey, sorry guys, I like meat inspectors. I also like having the CDC around. I know the CDC tracking outbreaks of infections diseases "isn't in the Constituiton" or whatever, but I like to have a body monitoring pandemics. I like vaccines. I don't like diseases. In your Mad Max conception of "proper government," only the strong would survive the ravages of diseases which until very recently killed millions; but I'm not on board, and not only am I not on board, but if I ever suspect you are even close to getting your strange crank-conception of government into force, I jump to the other side and I fight you tooth and nail and I make you an enemy. Your more florid positions do not have widespread support. Stop trying to foist them on an unwilling public. I let a lot of this stuff go, but that's condescending. So I'll draw a line in the sand. I do not believe your in your paranoia-fueld conception of government and actively oppose it. Maybe it's best to put cards on the table and just go on record that you shouldn't mistake silence for acquiesence.

264 Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:19 PM (Xm1aB)

This is pretty much where I'm at right now.  This whole debate is just another case of fighting the last war, anyway.

Though I am interested if this reveals an artful flipping on the part of Perry's or not. 

265 So ace, you're a diseasist.

266

A man that committed to executive authority is not someone I'd trust to repeal ObamaCare.

That makes exactly zero sense.  In addition, he ADMITS THAT HE SCREWED UP.  Let's take this opportunity to compare and contrast that admission with someone who blames Japanese earthquakes--and here is the key part--retroactively for his own economic policies.

On the entire vaccine question:  Malkin and the rest of the nitwits out there conveniently ignore the no polio/no smallpox/no measles/no tyophoid luxury that we enjoy.  Thnigs weren't always like that and I don't want my kids growing up in a world like that. 

267 And guess what? Rick Perry, in retrospect, has admitted it was a mistake.

Posted by: Dave at August 25, 2011 02:19 PM (Xm1aB)

Yes, but it would be easy to see his admission of fault as a matter of political expediency.  I'm not saying that's what it is, only that that's how it could be perceived.

This is an issue that's more multi-layered than many people think.  That's why it can be so divisive among people who otherwise agree on just about everything.  But the important thing for everyone to remember is that we can't dismiss each other's concerns anymore than we should dismiss each other's affirmations.  That's why I understand the people who say this wasn't mandatory because it had an opt-out feature, but also why I expect them to respect that I don't consider that "voluntary" in any way, shape or form.  It's different perspectives of the same issue, both valid. 

*shrug* YMMV

268 Yeah, I'm beginning to think the paulbots are the ones with their panties in a wad about this "issue." It's stupid.

269
In the end, we concluded that some of the vaccines were more worth the risks than others. At my son’s two-month checkup, the pediatrician expected him to receive a triple-combination shot called “Pediarix” (consisting of Hep B, inactivated polio, and DTaP, which covers diphtheria, tetanus and acellular pertussis), as well as HiB (for certain bacterial infections) and Prevnar (for meningitis and blood infections). I reiterated my refusal of Hep B, accepted DTaP and HiB, and asked to put off polio and Prevnar. In response, I received a threat: Get all the vaccines or get out of our practice.

“Informed consent”? Ha. This was uninformed coercion.

WeÂ’re leaving for another practice, a little bitter but wiser. The strong-arm tactics of the medical establishment mustnÂ’t intimidate parents from challenging the universal vaccine orthodoxy. When it comes to protecting our childrenÂ’s health, skepticism is the best medicine.


Beware of vaccine bullies
Michelle Malkin
February 04, 2004



"Timmy. look what Mommy got you for your birthday. Meningitis!"

270 @268:  People get the government that they deserve.

271 Equine encephalitis is fun.

272 I've been thinking some of the radical libertarians need to ponder Chesterton's Fence, themselves. For they blithely, and thoughtlessly, demand we start taking down fences against diseases without ever considering what circumstances had prompted the building of the fence in the first place. Open a history book, guys. Read about pandemics. Read about the Spanish Flu killing a million people in, what, 1913? Not EVERYTHING a government does is a conspiracy to take away your liberty.

273 I understand the argument against government-mandated vaccinations, but I have no patience for people who argue against the vaccines themselves. Their arguments are emotional and not supported by science.  Michelle Malkin complained when Glenn Reynolds wrote, "we should make clear that parents who, with no genuine medical reason, forego vaccinating their kids are bad parents, and bad citizens."  Sorry, Michelle, he is 100% correct.

I think parents should have the right to choose which vaccines their children receive, but if they choose to opt out without a genuine medical reason then they need to find a private school that will take them or they need to home school them.  Getting vaccines significantly increases individual immunity but doesn't guarantee it, so having large clusters of opt-outs puts immunized kids at risk, too.  Plus, if a non-immunized kid gets pertussis or polio or measles they can pass it along to younger siblings of their friends who haven't completed the schedule.  Most of the deaths from pertussis (whooping cough) today are in infants who are too young to be immunized and the only way to protect them is herd immunity.  (Adults should get their DTP shots updated anyway for the tetanus, btw.) 

Also, I have no problem with Michelle Malkin's pediatrician telling her to take a hike if she refused or delayed her kid's immunizations.  The doctor has the right to treat whomever he wants, and why should he put his other patients at risk because she chooses to do something that he believes is medically risky?

274 I just can't fathom what the problem is with the paying for Gardasil vs. paying for VariVax (chicken pox vaccine) or MMR or aaaaalllll the other vaccines and medicines that insurance covers. Yes, your insurance goes up. Yes, Medicaid covers it. I'm very sorry that your have to pay a little more to protect young women from dying of a preventable form of cancer. It's fine to say that an opt-in for the vaccine itself would've better, it's fine to worry about goverment spending and insurance rates going up, but freaking out about Gardasil as if they are the major face of that is crazy.

275 Anybody have a link handy to that chart on how much the federal government has grown since Obama?...how much government can you afford is the real question.

276 Open a history book, guys. Read about pandemics. Read about the Spanish Flu killing a million people in, what, 1913?

Not EVERYTHING a government does is a conspiracy to take away your liberty.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:26 PM (nj1bB)

1918/19

Killed over 20 million.

Just after WWI

Lost a couple of great-aunts.

Read "Pale Horse, Pale Rider" by Katherine Anne Porter

277 What Perry "admitted" was a mistake was not going through the legislature. That is exactly what I said in the eval.

278 --This is your attempt to force your own paranoid, Ron Paul conception of not "limited government" but government with virtually no functions whatsoever on the rest of us, who are not in fact anarchists or minarchists but simply limited government supporters.

Huh?

279 I hate it when 1% of the population gets 50% of the attention.

280 @ 268 Fucking righteous.

281 Well, I wholeheartedly agree with Malkin taking her responsibility as a parent as seriously as she does. It seems she did her research and used her discretion in choosing which vaccinations would be allowed. I like that. However, if her children are not vaccinated against the terrible diseases which in centuries past wiped out whole populations, then I think the government can take steps to protect the public at large up to and including quarantine.

282 Libertarians stole my business model!

283

I always enjoy hot bold-on-blog action.

284 Why does Glenn Reynold's look like an East German version of John Boy on The Waltons and oooooh, could he button his shirt up a little?

285 " jab in the arm"

Brit Alert!  

286 Not EVERYTHING a government does is a conspiracy to take away your liberty.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:26 PM (nj1bB)

Ace, no offense, but no one here is saying, "TB?  I'm not vaccinating my kid against TB!  Conspiracy!"  Or 'Polio?  I'm not vaccinating my kid against polio!  Conspiracy!"   We're talking about something completely different, that's new and not time-tested.  I'm not a "Paulbot" conspiracy nut because I balk at having bureaucrats and politicians tell me they know what's best for my child and that, if i argue with them, I have to put my child on file in a government office.  What on earth for?  So that when unvaccinated boys start contracting HPV they can point at my daughter as the one who gave it to them?  It doesn't make sense.  It's not a conspiracy, it's just mindless bureaucratic nonsense that interferes with a parent's right to decide what's best for their child.

287 Fucking righteous.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 02:30 PM (lbo6/)

Are you serious?  ace's response had NOTHING to do with my post.  Nothing whatsover.  And he thinks I'm a Paulite .... LOL.

288 Michelle Malkin...that hot, sexy little vixen can be an histrionic drama queen sometimes.

...but gosh damn, would I love to get it in

289 Also, I have no problem with Michelle Malkin's pediatrician telling her to take a hike if she refused or delayed her kid's immunizations.  The doctor has the right to treat whomever he wants, and why should he put his other patients at risk because she chooses to do something that he believes is medically risky?

Posted by: anti-vaxers are worse than truthers at August 25, 2011 02:27 PM (Te3kW)

No shit.  Hospitals (and occasion, doctor's offices, when that certain family who lives in a pig sty comes around) are some of the most dangerous places with respect to infectious diseases.  A bunch of unvaccinated kids is a threat to both themselves and others around them. 

I'd hate to be a pediatrician with a reputation for taking the unvaccinators.  That could go south real fast, not only in terms of sickness/death but also in terms of malpractice suits.

290 If some fucking parent doesn't want to vaccinate his kid and he winds up getting something that turns into the guy down on the corner who sells pencils out of a cup, then I don't want to subsidize him.

291 No, officer. I'm not showing you my I'd or proof of insurance, you fucking Nazi pig! *BLAMBLAMBLAM!* Freeeeeeeddoooooommmm!!!

292 @293 Unfortunately, in my experience with hot, sexy, little vixens (which is admittedly limited), most are histrionic drama queens.

293 295 If some fucking parent doesn't want to vaccinate his kid and he winds up getting something that turns into the guy down on the corner who sells pencils out of a cup, then I don't want to subsidize him.

Posted by: TexasJew at August 25, 2011 02:35 PM (+cOEs)

This is completely random, but... what on earth would turn a guy into a person who sells pencils from a cup on a street corner?  I'm serious; I honestly don't know.  I would assume schizophrenia, but since that's not a vaccinatable disease (is that even a word?), what is it?

294 Posted by: TexasJew at August 25, 2011 02:16 PM (+cOEs)

You're in the oil business, right? Is sweet crude something I would want to put on my waffle in the morning?

295 What is Malkin's take on my kid's Golden Retriever getting mandatory rabies shots?

296 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2011 02:36 PM (2tTzd)

rofl

297 Thanks for the facts, Texas Jew. 20 million. But let's let people who think vaccines are a government conspiracy decide proper policy on these matters. >>>We're talking about something completely different, that's new and not time-tested. I'm not a "Paulbot" conspiracy nut because I balk at having bureaucrats and politicians tell me they know what's best for my child and that, if i argue with them, I have to put my child on file in a government office. What on earth for? Um, to note that you received their information and rejected it. Yes, you are acting like a PaulBot. Your child will be "on file" in a government office. Jesus Christ, the paranoia. What do you think happens? A great round-up of the children who have not been inocculated? Again, apparently you think signing a one-paragraph release is too onerous an erosion of your liberty so you'd rather just have people exposed to diseasne needlessly rather than sign it.

298 Are you serious?  ace's response had NOTHING to do with my post.  Nothing whatsover.  Yes, Mr. McEnroe. I am serious. And I was responding to the post itself, not as a response to anything. It aint all about you, baby! C'mere. Bring that shit in and let's hug it out, bitch.

299 299 Posted by: TexasJew at August 25, 2011 02:16 PM (+cOEs)

You're in the oil business, right? Is sweet crude something I would want to put on my waffle in the morning?

Posted by: beedubya at August 25, 2011 02:37 PM (AnTyA)

Sure.

It really sticks to your ribs.

300

It seems she did her research and used her discretion in choosing which vaccinations would be allowed.

No, she did not.  She climbed on the autism hysteria bandwagon--which had much in common with the global warming hysteria bandwagon--and never climbed down even when the whole thing has beeen discredited.

Not vaccinating your kid again POLIO is criminal neglect in my eyes.

301 >>>This is completely random, but... what on earth would turn a guy into a person who sells pencils from a cup on a street corner? I'm serious; I honestly don't know. Many of the diseases we're talking about left people blind, paralyzed, palsied, or brain damaged. Many people did not just "get better." Some did. Some died, some lived, and some carried the aftereffects of the disease for the rest of their lives.

302 >>>Are you serious?  ace's response had NOTHING to do with my post.  Nothing whatsover.  And he thinks I'm a Paulite .... LOL.

It had everything to do with your post, and the fact that you don't realize that -- or don't realize how you COME OFF LIKE a Paulbot even if you claim not to be one -- is precisely what the problem is.  You just stand there holding your dick like you always do, and blame the person who tries to talk sense to you.  It's your 'thing,' I guess.

303 This is what you call indulgence. We're sitting in a world where people do NOT constantly see people in wheelchairs for life due to polio contracted as children, and because we don't see that, we start indulgently denigrating the threat. Well, again, the reason you don't see this anymore is because of the vaccine. In the brave new world some "patriots" want, shit man, we'll have all this back and more. Because some people don't want to sign a form.

304

I have to put my child on file in a government office.

Like a birth certificate, for example?

Consistency, progress.  Embrace it.

305 @305 Well, I didn't read carefully enough it seems. If, in fact, she refuse the polio vaccine, I would say she didn't exercise her parental discretion wisely.

306 ...and because some people don't read history, or maybe read it and then dismiss it as "government propaganda."

307

This is completely random, but... what on earth would turn a guy into a person who sells pencils from a cup on a street corner?  I'm serious; I honestly don't know.  I would assume schizophrenia, but since that's not a vaccinatable disease (is that even a word?), what is it?

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at August 25, 2011 02:37 PM (4df7R)

Polio, several types of encephalitis, meningitis, all of which are fully preventable by vaccine.

308 Yes, you are acting like a PaulBot.

Your child will be "on file" in a government office. Jesus Christ, the paranoia. What do you think happens? A great round-up of the children who have not been inocculated?

Again, apparently you think signing a one-paragraph release is too onerous an erosion of your liberty so you'd rather just have people exposed to diseasne needlessly rather than sign it.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:39 PM (nj1bB)

*sigh*  Ace, I'm not a Paulbot.  I've laid out my arguments in what I think is a fairly calm and rational manner.  If you disagree, fine.  But please don't just accuse me of being a nutjob conspiracy theorist for not seeing the value in signing a release for something that isn't "mandatory," okay? 

And what disease exposure are you talking about?  The last I heard, HPV couldn't be contracted from someone coughing on someone else.  Or sneezing on someone else.  Or drinking from the same fountain.  Am I wrong on this?  If I am, I invite someone to point me in the right direction.  But we're not talking about the measels, or smallpox, or goddamn ebola.  Can we at least agree on that?

309 No, she did not.  She climbed on the autism hysteria bandwagon--which had much in common with the global warming hysteria bandwagon--and never climbed down even when the whole thing has beeen discredited.

Not vaccinating your kid again POLIO is criminal neglect in my eyes.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 25, 2011 02:40 PM (B+qrE)

Yeah.  DIY learning can be helpful when it's easily verifiable, like studying a foreign language, but in this case the only way you know you're wrong is when your kid's right leg starts atrophying like a centenarian's wang. 

You see this a lot in homeschoolers.  "I read on some random third party website run by a conservative Christian man that refined sugar is as poisonous as arsenic."  I've been homeschooled, and I'm also Christian, but damn.  Sometimes you just gotta shake your head.

310 FFIW:  I said it was a mandate to people of Texas, not mandatory to parents.

Obfuscation? Deny that it would increase premiums.

311 Again, apparently you think signing a one-paragraph release is too onerous an erosion of your liberty so you'd rather just have people exposed to diseasne needlessly rather than sign it.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:39 PM (nj1bB)

Aside from your incredible strawman arguments, this paragraph is just nutty.  What does signing or not signing an opt-out have to do with other people being needlessly exposed.  If you are only talking about disease, then the opt-out is irrelevant.  You are only concerned with vaccinated and unvaccinated.  Whether someone signs an opt-out doesn't change the state of their unvaccinated child and the exposure to others (who, if they're vaccinated, have nothing to worry about).  I just don't get what you think you're driving at. 

Mass vaccinations were done to eradicate diseases .  Do you think HPV will be eradicated by Texas vaccinations (to all but those who sign up for the opt-out)?  Otherwise, just get your vaccination and feel safe that you are now protected.  You are confusing many different vaccination issues and you are misrepresenting the arguments of those of us who find the opt-out requirements coercive and/or offensive.  And stop making pretend that HPV is like Polio or Measles.  Please.

312 Oh, and this makes you a konspiracy nut liar: "or it was a favor for Merck, a major corporate backer."
Because major, in this case, is a whole whopping $1500 or so.  Yeah, that is all they gave to Perry.

Look! Over there! It's a Koch brother! Get him!

313 Number 2 pencil?! Fuck your fascist Scantron bullshit! You'll take this motherfucking Crayon when I'm dead, pigs!

314

Many of the diseases we're talking about left people blind, paralyzed, palsied, or brain damaged.

Many people did not just "get better." Some did. Some died, some lived, and some carried the aftereffects of the disease for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:40 PM

Thank you.  As someone who had Mumps, Measles, and Whooping cough I am appalled at this whole anti-vac thing. Trust me you do not want your kids to have any of these, especially Whooping Cough. I was out of school for 5 weeks(maybe longer, it's been awhile) and would have had to repeat if my parents hadn't been able to afford a tutor. It was the worst thing I have ever experienced and that's saying alot. In our very small grade school three people, one a cousin, died from it. And then there's polio. I do remember the Iron Lung and kids with massive leg braces. I know quite a few in my small town died from it but can't give you the figures. So personally, I think anyone who doesn't want to have their children receive the basic vaccines is not just sadistic but dangerous, JMO.

315

Polio, several types of encephalitis, meningitis, all of which are fully preventable by vaccine.

Posted by: TexasJew at August 25, 2011 02:44 PM (+cOEs)

Agreed.

I think people are assuming I'm anti-vaccine, which couldn't be further from the truth. 

316 I admit I don't know what diptheria (sp?) is, but I know it's bad. I recently checked out of my local library a book that archived obituaries in southern Missouri from 1890 to 1899. Great source of history. I couldn't believe how many infant deaths due to diptheria were recorded. Just unbelievable.

317 I don't read Malkin for the same reason I don't read Riehl - they're both shrill at the drop of a hat about anything, no matter how minor. Everything is 4-alarm, this-goes-to-11 outrage. Plus I do get tired of the implication that if you don't agree with Dan Riehl completely on each and every issue, then you must be a far left sympathizer. On Jamie Radtke....I'd think that people had learned their lessons about supporting people who are complete unknowns just because....hey, she's TEA PARTY!!!! Unimpressive resume, no record to stand on. No thanks.

318 >>>Mass vaccinations were done to eradicate diseases . Do you think HPV will be eradicated by Texas vaccinations (to all but those who sign up for the opt-out)? Yes it would be vaccinated if it were standard to get this vaccinated, just the same as people seem to think Polio and smallpox were fictitious, nowadays. Yes, diseases that are widely vaccinated against tend to be wiped out. Even if one person catches it if he is surrounded by vaccinated persons, the disease cannot transmit and spread. This is the point of vaccines. They wipe out diseases. There is a long list of diseases some people apparently giggle at as no big deal which are only gone now due to disease. If you want your kid to have that risk, fine. I'll let you put your children in peril -- I will respect your right to be destructive towards your children. But if I'm to craft a general policy for most parents, I'd suggest the HPV vaccine with the opt-out for people who want to gamble a little bit with cervical cancer.

319 then I think the government can take steps to protect the public at large up to and including quarantine.

To the camps, Conservatism is a disease!

320
It seems she did her research and used her discretion in choosing which vaccinations would be allowed.
Posted by: Dave



Not really.  Malkin does that Sullivanesque thing where she hat-tips any anti-vaccine story that comes up in her newsfeeds. She's seems pretty much an absolutist. Any personal concessions to medical reality seem to be some vestige of her innate maternal instincts.

Heck, she's even against flu shots for the elderly, which is pretty fringy.

321

Michelle Malkin once sent me an autographed copy of her book, Unhinged: Exposing Liberals Gone Wild, after I helped her out with problems posting a picture on her website.

Dan Riehl is kind enough to follow me on Twitter, and I read RedState. While I think that the whole Gardasil thing has been blown out of proportion, I find it hard to take sides in all of this.

In the words of the wise sage, Rodney King, "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"

322 321 I admit I don't know what diptheria (sp?) is, but I know it's bad.

I recently checked out of my local library a book that archived obituaries in southern Missouri from 1890 to 1899. Great source of history.

I couldn't believe how many infant deaths due to diptheria were recorded. Just unbelievable.


Diphtheria (Mayo Clinic)

"Diphtheria (dif-THEER-e-uh) is a serious bacterial infection usually affecting the mucous membranes of your nose and throat. Diphtheria typically causes a sore throat, fever, swollen glands and weakness. But the hallmark sign is a sheet of thick, gray material covering the back of your throat. This material can block your windpipe so that you have to struggle for breath.

Today, diphtheria is extremely rare in the United States and other developed countries thanks to widespread vaccination against the disease.

Medications are available to treat diphtheria. However, in advanced stages, diphtheria can cause damage to your heart, kidneys and nervous system. Even with treatment, diphtheria can be deadly — as many as 10 percent of people who get diphtheria die of it."

323 This is the point of vaccines. They wipe out disease.

Incorrect. You seem to confuse "defend an individual against" (the purpose of a single vaccination) and "wipe out" (the purpose of FORCING mass vaccinations).

324

And stop making pretend that HPV is like Polio or Measles.  Please.

Yeah, it's groovy.

First rule of holes, progress.  Embrace it.

325 We looked at some of this stuff recently with our doctor when considering the vaccination of the daughter. Gardasil is marketed as preventing cervical cancer, but there is no way currently to prove that claim. The Gardasil trial was over a few years and cervical cancer normally takes decades to develop. The trial only looked at preventing a certain type of infectious lesion CIN2, and not the specific HPV strains that are believed to cause cervical cancer. In other words the studies did not genotype the infections for HPV subtype. They used CIN2 as the proxy for cancer when not all CIN2 leads in that direction. Indeed some CIN2 infections reverse normally within a couple years. Plus CIN2 infection is one of the least reproducible diagnoses. So there are definitely some problems with the studies used. The incidence of CC has decreased in the U.S. with the rise of use of Pap smearing. Gardasil only protects against a couple of the HPV strains although the two are thought to cause a majority, but not all, the CC. Lastly, the likelihood of serious adverse effect and death from CC is 2.4/100,000 and the risk of serious complications is 3.34 per 100,000 doses of Gardasil. Thus you have to pick your way through all the literature and reach a decision. I think this is why some are hesitant about Gardasil. It is not an easy decision to make for your child or for yourself for that matter. That neither the pediatrician nor family doctor pushed it said a lot to us.

As for chicken pox that someone brought up, if you have suffered it, it is kept in check by your virus fighting apparatus. When adults age, their immune systems usually get a bit weaker and the virus can reappear as painful shingles. That's one of the reasons for vaccinating against it. There's an adult vaccine for shingles but it's fairly expensive and doesn't necessarily prevent reoccurence but lessens effects.

326

This is apropos of nothing, but I watched a BBC documentary on youtube last night about the California music scene in the late 60's-early 70's and it seems that both Joanie Mitchell and Neal Young were coincidentally both hospitalized as very young children during the same pre-vaccine Polio epidemic up in Canada.

They both luckily survived their bouts with polio, but most of the other little kids never walked again.

 

327 As for chicken pox that someone brought up, if you have suffered it, it is kept in check by your virus fighting apparatus. When adults age, their immune systems usually get a bit weaker and the virus can reappear as painful shingles. That's one of the reasons for vaccinating against it. There's an adult vaccine for shingles but it's fairly expensive and doesn't necessarily prevent reoccurence but lessens effects.

Posted by: laddy at August 25, 2011 02:51 PM (49mGu)

My poor father had shingles a couple of years ago.  Not fun.  Not fun AT ALL.  I often wonder why it's called "shingles," but then I'm not sure if i want to know.

328 >>>Incorrect. You seem to confuse "defend an individual against" (the purpose of a single vaccination) and "wipe out" (the purpose of FORCING mass vaccinations). No, Paulian, you're wrong. Smallpox and polio are so contained now in the US that smallpox vaccines aren't even recommended anymore (thanks to commenters for noting this). A disease only lives if it is able to spread. If one guy gets it, that's horrible, but if he cannot spread it to anyone, the disease then died. That is the situation the US is in, and most of the developed world is in, due to vaccines. One guy may get the disease, but he can't communicate it to other people. And a disease which is no longer active -- due to everyone being immunized against it -- is more or less dead. Again you seem to think this mostly communicable-disease-free world we live in "just happened." It didn't. Doctors created cures which saved millions of people and wise, patriotic statesmen of an early age pushed vaccination against these horrors. But you want to undo that so you don't have to sign opt-out forms.

329

They both luckily survived their bouts with polio, but most of the other little kids never walked again.

 

Posted by: TexasJew at August 25, 2011 02:52 PM (+cOEs)

Polio is devastating.  Everyone should be familiar with some of its effects, c/o FDR.  But that would assume that anyone learns anything in public school, which I think we all can agree is a dodgy theory at best.

330 "The last I heard, HPV couldn't be contracted from someone coughing on someone else.  Or sneezing on someone else.  Or drinking from the same fountain.  Am I wrong on this?  " Yes and no. There are several different types of HPV and at least one is passed by general physical contact, although I don't know of any type of HPV that is airborne. One type of HPV is one cause of warts on your hands and body and is explicit transmitted via touch. But it's not the same type of HPV that's linked to cervical cancer. and I'm pretty sure that Gardasil was only useful against the type spread via sexual contact.

331 308This is what you call indulgence.

We're sitting in a world where people do NOT constantly see people in wheelchairs for life due to polio contracted as children, and because we don't see that, we start indulgently denigrating the threat.

Well, again, the reason you don't see this anymore is because of the vaccine.

In the brave new world some "patriots" want, shit man, we'll have all this back and more.

Because some people don't want to sign a form.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:43 PM (nj1bB)

 

 

when you've had a lot of it for a while, you get used to it and don't realize how precious and valuable it is, freedom is worth some discomfort & insecurity.

it's not about the forms, it's about what the government has a right to know about you and what it doesn't.

right now the government thinks it has the right to know everything about you and they are being sold on the idea that CorpWorld needs that same right.

so where is my right to keep my personal info to myself?

why do they have the legal right to keep & sell my info without my knowledge or permission?

the whole idea of it runs contrary to the Constitution.

 

the internet changes nothing, just because it's easier to gather and store people's personal info doesn't mean it must be allowed, it should not.

it needs to stop.

 

332 Combine both Dan Riel and Erick Ericsons's volatility, remove their professions, toss in a lot more cuss words , and an unwillingness to backdown over a stupid subject, like say "Longbows" and you have Wickedpinto.

333 But you want to undo that so you don't have to sign opt-out forms.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:57 PM (nj1bB)

I'm sorry, ace, but I don't know where in POP's posts you're getting that idea.  Possibly I missed a comment?  There's a difference between disliking this one particular vaccination requirement and wanting to do away with vaccinations, period. 

334 Yes and no. There are several different types of HPV and at least one is passed by general physical contact, although I don't know of any type of HPV that is airborne. One type of HPV is one cause of warts on your hands and body and is explicit transmitted via touch. But it's not the same type of HPV that's linked to cervical cancer. and I'm pretty sure that Gardasil was only useful against the type spread via sexual contact.

Posted by: Mandy P., Teahadi from Hobbitton at August 25, 2011 02:58 PM (qFpRI)

Thank you, Mandy! 

335 Radke's in trouble if she has to spend her time debating Erickson.

336 But you want to undo that so you don't have to sign opt-out forms.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 02:57 PM (nj1bB)

You know, ace, you are one of the more disingenuous debaters around.  Show me ANYWHERE I wrote anything that would lead you to write that idiotic piece of tripe above.  SHOW ME.  Show me where I wanted to undo any of that. Otherwise, stop trying to put words into my mouth. 

Maybe when I told you not to try and conflate HPV with Polio and Measles you took that as meaning - somehow, some way - that I thought they were all the same ... Sheesh.

337 >>>the whole idea of it runs contrary to the Constitution. Actually by the Constitution, which incorporated British law and colonial practice, the state has the power to quarrantine the sick against their will to prevent them from spreading disease.

338 And Ace, I know you read Insty.  It's called "Herd Immunity."

339 >>>Maybe when I told you not to try and conflate HPV with Polio and Measles you took that as meaning - somehow, some way - that I thought they were all the same ... Sheesh. HPV is a major cause of cervical cancer, which is deadly. in what way are they not similar? Some deadly diseases are more deadly than others/

340 My poor father had shingles a couple of years ago.  Not fun.  Not fun AT ALL.  I often wonder why it's called "shingles," but then I'm not sure if i want to know.

I actually know the answer to that. The rash and blisters form along the nerve endings which is why there is pain involved. Thus the rashes and blisters appear in bands especially on the torso. Shingles is derived from the Latin word "cingulum" which means girdle/belt.

341 I had shingles in high school and it was painful.  I don't wish it on anyone.  As for all of the vaccine brouhaha , when you live in a border state, especially close to the border, be smart people...get vaccinated.  You have no idea what's crossing in from our southern border, it's frightening.  In San Diego County if you don't get a Tdap vaccine you don't get into public school, it's that simple.  The Southbay Public Health Center has people lined up everyday for the immunization clinics.  They come from TJ to be vaccinated, even the poor Mexicans know their children need the vaccines.  We turn no one away. 

342 Gardisil wasn't mandated for ALL girls, it was required for all girls attending Texas Public Schools.

That IS! in the constitution.  The state offers to provied an education in a safe environment and has certain requirements.  You have to pay your book fee's, You have to have your required school supplies, and yes, you also have to have your vaccines.   With the dropping of the age at which people become sexually active matching the crap people were experiencing more than a hundred years ago, protecting young women from a potentially fatal illness and not unlikely one that would make them barren before they realistically consider childbirth is not outside of the realistic requirements of. . .. .

THE CONTRACT which is in the constitution, between the state and the citizen.

343 Actually by the Constitution, which incorporated British law and colonial practice, the state has the power to quarrantine the sick against their will to prevent them from spreading disease. Posted by: ace

I can think of one disease: TB.

344 This is cargo cult ignorance the liberals exhibit with respect to the economy. Given American prosperity, they think "that just happened." They are historically ignorant so do not realize that decades and decades of expanding prosperity is actually an odd state of affairs, and they do not care to inquire as to what CAUSED this felicitous situation to occur. They just want to get their radical hands in there and change things to their liking. Same thing here, but with radical paranoid libertarians, who do not seem to wonder for one second "Gee why aren't 20 million people dying in the US and Europe in two years of a single disease anymore?" or "Gee, why is there like no more polio-caused paralysis anymore?" and just want to get their "reforming" hands in there to change shit. THERE IS A REASON THAT PEOPLE WISER THAN YOU -- INCLUDING IN THE LIBERTARIAN GOLDEN AGE OF THE 1920s AND THE STILL-QUITE-AMERICAN 50s and 60s -- BEGAN INNOCULATING WIDELY AGAINST MURDEROUS DISEASES. This shit didn't "just happen." Smallpox didn't just "go away." HUMAN SKILL AND HUMAN WISDOM SLAUGHTERED IT, AS IF IN A WAR.

345 Actually by the Constitution, which incorporated British law and colonial practice, the state has the power to quarrantine the sick against their will to prevent them from spreading disease.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 03:05 PM (nj1bB)

And the federal Constitution allows for martial law ... but that doesn't mean that the federal government is allowed to do anything up to martial law any time they want nor to gather all of the information they want on anyone short of that.

Again, you are equating the need to quarantine someone who has an immediately deadly, infectious disease with vaccinating everyone for something that doesn't even affect half the population, to start.  Good logic, there.

346 Hey Ace. Didn't you interview Radtke a few weeks ago ? Would you share your thoughts and impressions with the MoronNation? Back to lurking.....

347 This shit didn't "just happen." Smallpox didn't just "go away." HUMAN SKILL AND HUMAN WISDOM SLAUGHTERED IT, AS IF IN A WAR.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 03:11 PM (nj1bB)

You're arguing with yourself, ace.

348 If he is, it's because he's talking sense.  I've this same argument a number of times in the last month, cuz I bashed malking for her op-ed after one of her kids was born and the title was "don't always listen to the vaccination nazi's."   She called them NAZI'S!   The actual content of the article was slightly less inflamatory, but still quite insulting to new parents, who don't know as much as michelle.

349 Okay all you anti-vaccine nutters how about life before these vaccines?
Diptheria,Pertussis,Typhoid, Polio, Hep A, Hep B, Measles, Mumps.
Rubella, Varicella, Meningitis, Pneumonia,Influenza.
Rotavirus, Tetanus,Haemophilus Influenza b, Zoster (Shingles).

Wanna go back to the good old days?  Want your children unprotected?  Good luck.  I'm passionate about this because I work with the Vaccines For Children (VFC) Program.

350 >>>You're arguing with yourself, ace. I know and you don't sweat HPV because only like 40% of women contract it and thus only 40% have needlessly high risks of cervical cancer. They knew what they were getting into.

351 The thinking is apparently "Okay we can innoculate against the diseases we already destroyed, but damnit, we will not wipe out any further diseases! It's unconstitutional!"

352 and the rule is, if you don't want your kid to get MMR?  They can't attend a public school.   Hell, you can't even attend most daycare centers.   Don't want your kid to get the polio vac?  Fine, you can't attend a public school, hell, you can't even attend most daycare centers.

Public Functions still require a state of reciprocity, and one of those things, in every school I ever attended was vaccinations!  Why Gardasil?  Fine ask that question after you take your kid out of school, and when you are done ruminating, stop bitching about the fact that you are engaging in a social contract consisting of thousands of people, succeptable to the illness that your bad judgment has exposed them to.

353 @ 356,  and sterility ace.

354 >>> Didn't you interview Radtke a few weeks ago ? Would you share your thoughts and impressions with the MoronNation? Back to lurking..... Yeah but it wasn't news-y, alas. I had intended to do a post but it wouldn't have been newsy. My idea was to do a podcast with her, an interview, because an interview is itself news, right? Ironically I was to do that with Redstate's Howe Brothers-- and that might still happen.

355 You know another disease that apparently ran rampant in the late 19th century, at least in Missouri, was something called la grippe or le grip. It is spelled differently in the obits I have read. Anyone know what the hell la grippe is. It was a big killer, not only of infants but adults as well.

356 Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 03:23 PM (nj1bB)

So, are you for forced flu vaccinations?  That's 36,000 lives you can save every year, not your piddly little 4,000 from cervical cancer.

357 It is mandatory in public schools progressoverpeace.

358 My mom and dad have the circular scar on the right bicep from their polio vaccines when they were kids.  Fuck those pricks who gave mom and dad a scar in exchange for basically eradicating a disease.

359 Grippe was an old name for influenza.

360 Can anyone explain why "The Constitution" (in quotes, because I dont know if we're talking about the document I know) would permit vaccinations against smallpox, polio, and the flu, but apparently contains some clause within it specifying that HPV cannot be immunized against?

361 349 Actually by the Constitution, which incorporated British law and colonial practice, the state has the power to quarrantine the sick against their will to prevent them from spreading disease. Posted by: ace

I can think of one disease: TB.


That happened to my granddad's uncle. Got TB Over There and was placed in a TB sanatorium back here.

Cholera is another one.

362 364

I've got the scar on my left upper arm and am happy to have it.  My husband contracted chicken pox at 40.  It was not funny, it was dangerous.

363 @365 Thanks.

364 It is mandatory in public schools progressoverpeace.

Posted by: Douglas at August 25, 2011 03:28 PM (YKOnu)

Some.  Remember, it was health care workers who went apeshit when they tried to force THEM to take the flu vaccine for the last bird-flu fake scare or swine flu ("that doesn't come from pigs, so we call it H1N1").

365 >>>So, are you for forced flu vaccinations? That's 36,000 lives you can save every year, not your piddly little 4,000 from cervical cancer. With opt-outs? In schools, where so many kids spread disease to each other? Sure, why not? "Piddly little 4,000 deaths per year from cervical cancer." I'll fucking let that statement stand on its own.

366 Can anyone explain why "The Constitution" (in quotes, because I dont know if we're talking about the document I know) would permit vaccinations against smallpox, polio, and the flu, but apparently contains some clause within it specifying that HPV cannot be immunized against?

Posted by: ace

Ace, I believe that is the 28th Amendment.  It's call the Jenny McCarthy Amendment.

367 Diseases are apparently protected persons under the Constitution. IT'S ABOUT FREEDOM! (TM) I see a lot of people whose understanding of life and history is 1, very limited, and 2, entirely theoretical, and 3, flows from things they think and not from things they read.

368 You know, part of the problem with this very issue is that the government has governed so badly for so long it has bred an innate distrust among many, many Americans toward any exercise of government power most especially as it relates to invasive medical procedures. On the other hand, there are many, many fucking crazy people who live in this country.

369

have never understood Ericksons appeal ...  a small town city councilman acts like he's got the political experience of a 4 term Senator and we're supposed to ignore the fact that he's always complaining about the GOP ...

small town, small mind and nasty at that ...  RedState is a collection of second rate nobodies in the real world ... Do they have any top flight lawyers, businessmen, authors or anybody that has done anything besides write blog posts ?

370 On the other hand, there are many, many fucking crazy people who live in this country. Posted by: Dave

I blame Oprah.  No, I am not kidding.  The Oprahfication of America has destroyed common sense. When you give idiots a national platform what do you think will happen?

371 "Piddly little 4,000 deaths per year from cervical cancer."

I'll fucking let that statement stand on its own.

Posted by: ace at August 25, 2011 03:32 PM (nj1bB)

Sure you will, but it was not presented on its own.  It was placed in comparison to the annual 36,000 deaths by flu (which certainly makes the number piddling by comparison) which is actually highly infectious from casual contact, unlike HPV.  But those details mean nothing to you.  You're all about saving the children, I know.

372

So, are you for forced flu vaccinations?

Anyone who does not take a flu vaccination when available is also an idiot.  What is your next stupid point?

373 If the HPV vaccine saves one life it's worth the risk.  Especially if that one life is your child's.

374

Asking for appologies is weak makes you a pussy.

 

fixed it myself.

375 that he's always complaining about the GOP ... which is why CNN loves him-hell even I could figure that out.

376 @376 This. Don't get me started on Oprah. Please, just don't.

377 ical flu vaccine scenario we see every effin year.  I'm not getting the vaccine, it will give me the ful: bullshit.  It's a dead virus.  So you get the flu, bad.  You infect someone else who hasn't had their flu shot yet.  They have an autoimmune disease and contract the flu from you.  Guess what happens to them?

Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller.

If you don't get the vaccine and get sick, STAY THE FUCK HOME.

378 ful = flu 

Sorry, I'm pissed.

379 Don't get me started on Longbows.

380 Riehl and Erickson both like picking fights.   Sometimes they have useful stuff, but in general, I don't like the dick waving that they both take part in.

381 No 361
Anyone know what the hell la grippe is.

It's what the French call influenza.

382 "Hi, I need to enroll my child for school." "Great! Just fill out this form." "Name and address? WHERE THE FUCK ARE WE, RUSSIA?! THAT'S NONE OF YOUR GOD-DAMNED BUSINESS! I'M NOT PUTTING MY CHILD'S NAME IN YOUR FUCKING OPPRESSIVE RECORDS DATABASE, COMRADE!"

383 I've heard Radke speak and she makes Sharon Angle sound like Margaret  Thatcher. She has no chance in the general election. I'm no Allen fan but come on people, we need to pick up these seats to take the Senate.

384 You may not like EE but Macon, GA is not a "small town".

385 Macon, Georgia. Spent 2 weeks there once. Great town. Allman Brothers. Mercer. And I had my first omelette covered in chili at a Waffle House there. Awesome.

386 Yeah, I used to go there to shop a lot when I was young. It used to be a lot bigger than it is now but it has been "shrinking" lately. Augusta has taken over as the second largest city in GA now.

387 So the Texas legislature is less fit than Rick Perry to decide vaccination policy? Just like Obama gets to decide immigration policy because he is such a whiz? Is that what you mean?

388 Look, Erick is or was a city council member in Macon, GA, right? Big whoop. He had an idea, turned it into Red State and sold it. Personally I've never thought much of the RedState "community." These guys at RedState pile on Perry for one reason and one reason only, they're southern Christian conservatives who are ideologically and theologically opposed to having a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, as the normative presidential candidate. Instead they'd rather put their time and support behind a guy like Perry .Does anyone actually know that the office of governor of Texas is one of, if not THE weakest titled office of governor in the nation---the major of political power in Texas is vested in the Lt. Gov? Perry is going to attract all of the usual suspects on the right and lead us not into temptation, but into abject failure versus the Obama machine. Independents will not be comfortable with a guy like Perry, regardless of whatever narrative his political masters come up with. As it regards Dan Riehl, a more coprophagic blogger there never was. You can literally feel how badly and desperately he wants to be on the inside of the Palin campaign. He has literally climbed so far into the Palin colon he should qualify as the official proctologist of the Palin campaign. Riehl is a petulant clinger to people like Mark Levin and others who have done what, exactly, for modern conservatism? A pox on all of their houses. Perhaps the latest blog brawl will make all the weak-links of online conservatism finally implode.

389

What's wrong with being against vaccines? They're a tool used by the Fed to control us!

390 Jesus, I get a job, stop reading a blog or two due to time limitations and MISS all the action.

391

Look, Erick is or was a city council member in Macon, GA, right? Big whoop. He had an idea, turned it into Red State and sold it. Personally I've never thought much of the RedState "community." These guys at RedState pile on Perry for one reason and one reason only, they're southern Christian conservatives who are ideologically and theologically opposed to having a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, as the normative presidential candidate.
Instead they'd rather put their time and support behind a guy like Perry .Does anyone actually know that the office of governor of Texas is one of, if not THE weakest titled office of governor in the nation---the major of political power in Texas is vested in the Lt. Gov? Perry is going to attract all of the usual suspects on the right and lead us not into temptation, but into abject failure versus the Obama machine. Independents will not be comfortable with a guy like Perry, regardless of whatever narrative his political masters come up with.
As it regards Dan Riehl, a more coprophagic blogger there never was. You can literally feel how badly and desperately he wants to be on the inside of the Palin campaign. He has literally climbed so far into the Palin colon he should qualify as the official proctologist of the Palin campaign. Riehl is a petulant clinger to people like Mark Levin and others who have done what, exactly, for modern conservatism?
A pox on all of their houses. Perhaps the latest blog brawl will make all the weak-links of online conservatism finally implode.

--------------

This whole, entire post could have been shortened into, "I LIKE MITT ROMNEY AND DISLIKE THOSE WHO DON'T."

And, might I ask, what has Mitt Romney done for modern conservatism?

392

>>And, might I ask, what has Mitt Romney done for modern conservatism?

What *hasn't* he done?

393 Re: 397. Thanks for the petulance, Rich. Schooled at the feet of the master no doubt. What hasn't Romney done for modern conservatism. Correct me if I'm wrong but did not his PAC during the last election funnel thousands of dollars to deserving candidates throughout the nation, helping many of them bridge the gap? I know a lot of bloggers who would like to take credit for some of the victories out there, but money talks, and when it comes to money and organization, no one beats Romney on the ground at the moment. The only thing that beats Romney, I'm afraid, are the bigots out there who will never vote for him because of their religious objections.

394

Re: 397. Thanks for the petulance, Rich. Schooled at the feet of the master no doubt.

What hasn't Romney done for modern conservatism. Correct me if I'm wrong but did not his PAC during the last election funnel thousands of dollars to deserving candidates throughout the nation, helping many of them bridge the gap? I know a lot of bloggers who would like to take credit for some of the victories out there, but money talks, and when it comes to money and organization, no one beats Romney on the ground at the moment. The only thing that beats Romney, I'm afraid, are the bigots out there who will never vote for him because of their religious objections.

---------

Really? That's your test of helping modern conservatism? Raising money? I mean, that's nice and all, but if that's all you have then Karl Rove should be just the number 1 guy.

And speaking of petulance, blaming the fact that people just don't like Romney on religious bigotry is the cheap and easy way out. It's like the libs who cry racist when we denounce Obama. You just can't handle the fact that the reason so many of us don't like Romney isn't because we are bigots..it's because we don't like his stance on conservative issues. Rough to come to grips with, I know.

395 Waiting to see the most important question to get answered.....are longbows better than shortbows?

396 This web site is my breathing in, really fantastic pattern and perfect subject matter.

397 Folk like Michelle arenÂ’t ant-vaccine, we are anti-schedule.  We refuse to blindly follow the CDC vaccine schedule for children.  We also refuse to blindly follow the recommendations of pediatricians that generate a significant amount of their revenue stream from administering vaccines.  The vaccine schedule has exploded since we were kids.  Take a look at this:

CDC vaccine schedule in 1983
(child age in months when given):

DTP (2) – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
Polio (2)
DTP (4) – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
Polio (4)
DTP (6) – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
MMR (15) – measles, mumps, and rubella
DTP (1 – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
Polio (1
DTP (4 – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
Polio (4

Total number of shots: 10
Total number of vaccine doses: 22
Maximum number of doses given together:
4 doses (4 times)
 http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/images/schedule1983s.jpg

 
CDC vaccine schedule in 2010:
(child age in months when given):

Influenza (prenatal)
Hep B (birth)
Hep B (1)
DTaP (2)– diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
HiB (2)
Polio (2)
Pneumococcal (2)
Rotavirus (2)
DTaP (4)– diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
HiB (4)
Polio (4)
Pneumococcal (4)
Rotavirus (4)
Hep B (6)
DTaP (6)– diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
HiB (6)
Polio (6)
Pneumococcal (6)
Influenza (6)
Rotavirus (6)
HiB (12)
MMR (12) – measles, mumps, and rubella
Varicella (12) – chicken pox
Pneumococcal (12)
Hep A (12)
DTaP (15) – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
Hep A (1
Influenza (1
Influenza (30)
Influenza (42)
MMR (4 – measles, mumps, and rubella
DTaP (4 – diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis
Varicella (4 – chicken pox
Polio (4
Influenza (54)
Influenza (66)

Total number of shots: 36
Total number of vaccine doses: 49
Maximum number of doses given together:
9 doses – 1 time
8 doses – 1 time
7 doses – 4 times
6 doses – 1 time
 
CDC schedule link:
http://tinyurl.com/4bbyp2m

 
So after tripling the number of shots, are kids healthier today than they were in 1983?  Consider these facts regarding childrenÂ’s health in the US in 2010:

- Autism: 1 in 100 kids
- ADHD: 1 in 16 kids
- Asthma: 1 in 10 kids
- Development Delays: 1 in 6 kids
- Three million children on psychotropic medication
- Dramatically increased rates of severe autoimmune conditions in children such as anaphalactic shock (e.g. peanut allergies), Crohn's disease, and type 1 diabetes
- Teachers and school nurses armed with Epipens
- Mandatory school peanut-free zones


Those in the medical establishment tell us these children have always been here, we just never noticed them before.  Have you seen a child with full-blown autism?  They are hard to miss considering they canÂ’t speak, canÂ’t use a toilet, and are prone to outburst and public melt downs.  Yet we somehow never noticed these kids when we were growing up?

If they do acknowledge the increase in these conditions, they say they have absolutely no idea what is causing it, but they know it just canÂ’t be caused by the tripling of the vaccine schedule.  Perhaps it isnÂ’t, but how can they say what isnÂ’t causing it when they have no idea what is causing it?  In the meantime, they add more vaccines to the schedule, a schedule that adds up to $20 billion in annual sales for the vaccine manufactures.

 My sons have been vaccinated, but selectively.  We choose which vaccines they receive using a schedule much closer to the 1983 schedule.  We space out shots and donÂ’t administer them simultaneously.  This is our right as parents, and those that say we are irresponsible or bad citizens can kiss my ass.

 Parents – please do your own research before blindly following the recommendations of a pediatrician *selling* vaccines.  You have the right to decide what is injected into your children

398 Give me a break, Rich. Can you name a single conservative issue where Romney is weak compared to the other normative candidates. I say normative because you can't compare Romney's long standing positions to those of freaks like Ron Paul, and to a lesser degree Rick Perry, who until a few weeks ago was cutting ribbons at county fairs.

399

Give me a break, Rich. Can you name a single conservative issue where Romney is weak compared to the other normative candidates. I say normative because you can't compare Romney's long standing positions to those of freaks like Ron Paul, and to a lesser degree Rick Perry, who until a few weeks ago was cutting ribbons at county fairs.

===========

I continue to run into this same problem over and over again with Romney guys. It's as if they have just erased from memory that great, black mark..RomneyCare. On the issue of health care and entitlements for that matter, who ISNT he weak compared to?

400 When the government mandates a vaccine they give it their stamp of approval.  Most parents will not go do their own research.  Gardasil was never tested in children, only in adults, and the tests were inconclusive.  That vaccine was way too new, the benefit was too poorly documented, and the threat was too small.  There is a real cost/benefit question, and it was in no way clear that Gardasil had a net benefit even for sexually active women.  For non-sexually active individuals, it wasn't warranted at all.  Don't compare this to MMR and take a holier-than-thou stance.

Also, I question the "opt out" thing.  I had long-term consequences from the MMR shot, which is fine.  When I applied to graduate school, my surgeon put a note in my my medical records saying that I could not have the shot again.  No one had any problem with it, but when I went to enroll in classes at the start of the first semester, my file was flagged.  I had one day to sort everything out, or spend a year waiting to enroll again.  It was a nightmare.  If there is ever any element of time pressure, the ability to "opt out" becomes meaningless.  I was almost ready to have the shot that day, and damn the consequences.  The oh-so-benign process descibed by Mike the Moose sounds like something that could go wrong very easily and cause parents to give up under time pressure.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at August 25, 2011 01:56 PM (0q2P7)
To get the exemption form, parents must first submit a written form to State Health Department in Austin which forces the disclosure of the childÂ’s full name, birthdate, and mailing address. The Health Department takes those written requests and creates yet another form on which they print the childÂ’s same personal information that the parent had to send to health department, and the Health Department sometimes takes weeks to mail out these forms. The Health Department only sends the forms by U.S. mail, and once the parent receives the forms, they must be notarized within 90 days of submitting them and then repeatedly resubmitted every 2 years

401 OBAMA ISSUES WARNING:

"FORE!!!"

402

Well Ace tell you what, I'm from the government and we want to test this anti STD vaccine on you.  Now we promise you that it is wonderful but you can't sue us for an side effects, nor possible drawbacks, but there are none or so few as to be irresponsible to consider, especially in light of the possible benefits (in my view).

So take your mandatory vaccine.

Remember its irresponsible to question our vaccines to blacks it infected with STDin the 30s, or Guatemalans, or exposing tens of thousands of draftees to nuclear radiation, or the CIA releasing various biological agents in subways and urban areas in the fifties.

Just Obey.  And do as Ace says.  I can't imagine any reservations you might have about the goodwill of the government or their concern about your personal welfare.