1 Tax plan...what about his Text plan?

2 Is that a B minus or a SOLID B minus?

3 Over to you, Mittens.

4 Last night when kudlow was discussing this and really, it's pretty good, I had the feeling that BO is always an early adopter of things and I remember that every time mccain had a great idea during the campaign, BO adopted the idea too so that, in the end, they look almost the same except one was young and one was old.  I cringed a little, thinking "wow the republicans are putting this out there and BO will implement it".  I mean, it's not like the dems have put anything out, right?

5 Flat Tax > Progressive Tax

6 Repealing the Death Tax: C, because the writer is against outright repeal, as Pawlenty proposes, and on that score I think I might be on the same page as him.

Which him--the writer or t-paw?

I don't think wealth redistribution after death is a legitimate government function.  It is even worse than redistribution during life! 
Of course, I really won't care since I will be dead.

7 Wow, an actual detailed plan to help our country.  This must be what a serious presidential candidate looks like.

8
Taxes are just one of the three prongs to prosperity.

1. Taxes
2. de-regulation of business-killing regs
3. a goddamm energy policy that makes sense

9 Over to you, Mittens.

"uhuh uhhhhhh, Alligators in Moats! Uhhh ummmm, Headwinds and bumps in the Roads! And uh uh uh uh, yaow, ah ah ah ah ah ah, Granny off a cliff!

Enjoy yer uh um, slurpees while we're pushin' and pullin', bitter clingers."

10 Tim Pawlenty will take us from our byzantine and oppressive tax code to a slightly less byzantine and oppressive one.

Not that that's a bad thing, but we're pretty much arguing degree.

11 4 Last night when kudlow was discussing this and really, it's pretty good, I had the feeling that BO is always an early adopter of things and I remember that every time mccain had a great idea during the campaign, BO adopted the idea too so that, in the end, they look almost the same except one was young and one was old.  I cringed a little, thinking "wow the republicans are putting this out there and BO will implement it".  I mean, it's not like the dems have put anything out, right?

Posted by: curious at June 08, 2011 11:36 AM (k1rwm)

I guess that could work in 2008 when neither candidate was currently POTUS, but a sitting President can't just adopt his opponent's ideas.  He'd actually have to implement them.  And we know the idea of flat taxes and cutting corporate tax rates makes Obama nauseous.

12 This must be what a serious presidential candidate looks like.

Posted by: robviously at June 08, 2011 11:37 AM (Xq2WY)

Nothing to see here--move along. 

Did you see how Ryan and the repubs want to kill grannie?  Now that is a plan!

13 Sounds similar to the plan floated by the House Rs, with some exceptions.

14 Taxes are just one of the three prongs to prosperity.

1. Taxes
2. de-regulation of business-killing regs
3. a goddamm energy policy that makes sense

You forgot one- Rule of, and Consistent application of, Law.

15 Ya have to give T-Paw credit for being proactive and putting his neck on the block. That seems more than anyone else is doing, especially JEF.

16
It's not just taxes that are killing the incentive for business.

Obama is killing business with a)  his cockamamie social engineering, and b) uncertainty.

And Geithner is a friggin clown. That boy genius, with brain of German Shepherd, must resign.

17 Eh, the government is gracious enough to let you borrow money during your lifetime. It just makes sense that you'd cede it back to them after you die.

18

The only real criticism I have read, is that this plan may actually increase the taxes paid by most Americans that pay taxes, because the lowered rate is not equal with the loss of deductions.  And that problem is most true of the middle of the middle class incomes.  So the liberal attack will be that Pawlenty wants to raise taxes on the middle class.  Which needs to be shot down as quickly as possible, before it become the talking point.

I do not understand it well enough to know for myself.

But hopefully, someone smarter than me is doing the math and finding out a way to fix the problem or to prove that it doesn't exist.

I don't know who I support for President, Romney and Pawlenty are top on my list.  So I hope this plan has legs and provides a rally point for the election.

19 He is in fact pushing regulation reform/reduction too. I don't know about energy.

20 9 Over to you, Mittens.

"uhuh uhhhhhh, Alligators in Moats! Uhhh ummmm, Headwinds and bumps in the Roads! And uh uh uh uh, yaow, ah ah ah ah ah ah, Granny off a cliff!

Enjoy yer uh um, slurpees while we're pushin' and pullin', bitter clingers."

Posted by: Stutters the Clown, stepping into his clown car at June 08, 2011 11:39 AM (XyjRQ)

"They talk about me like a dog!"

Seriously, when is the last time Obama proposed anything to actually help our economy?  None of his speeches really propose anything ever. 

21 Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 08, 2011 11:39 AM (OWjjx)

Yes, the phrase "adding insult to injury" comes to mind.

22 People below $50k should not get off the hook.  Damnit, that's who vote for liberals.  They must put skin in the game; at the very least tax them at 5%.

23 Are you grading the tax plan on a scale? Because when compared to Obama's plans I would Tom's  A++++!!!!+!+!+

24 >>>I do not understand it well enough to know for myself. Me neither. I imagine we'll see a passel of analyses within ten days.

25

9

Mittens = Mitt.

At least in my book.

26 As long as I can still use my wife's chemo tax credits to pay for snorting cocaine off a strippers ass I am for this plan.

27 Well Ace, studies have consistently shown that tax revenue always stabilizes to about 18.2% of GDP. It will go up or down for a short period based on tax law changes but the major thing that drives it is GDP.  Since GDP is dependent on how good the economy is then the only real way to grow revenue is to grow the economy.

Reagan proved this way back years ago so it is not just theory.

But I have no real confidence in getting any kind of major tax overhaul done in the next 4 or 5 years. Even if we take all branches of the government back.

28
You forgot one- Rule of, and Consistent application of, Law.

This is the whole problem in a nutsack, really. We wouldn't need all these ridiculous regs and special laws for protected classes of people if we laws that were already on the books were enforced.

Plus we need to start hanging these shysters who keep finding loopholes.

29 None of his speeches really propose anything ever. 

Posted by: robviously at June 08, 2011 11:42 AM (Xq2WY)

But my intentions are goood, and that trumps action!

30

Repealing the Death Tax: C, because the writer is against outright repeal, as Pawlenty proposes, and on that score I think I might be on the same page as him

 

How could you be against repealing the Death Tax?

31 Hey Sooth I screw you.

32 >>>People below $50k should not get off the hook. I kind of think this too, but right now they're not paying anything, so what, we raise taxes on the poorest Americans? I really think Bush should have avoided the step of completely immunizing so many from any taxes at all. Furthermore, there is an interesting debate here, that I think Ponuru is having (with who I don't know). The idea is that more downscale conservatives need something too. The party cannot pitch relentllessy to the upper middle class. The more blue-collar/rural poor conservative is a backbone of the party. So while I might agree with you in strict theory, what do we do, impose tax HIKES on a critical segment of the party?

33 Cleaning out the warren of tax loopholes... just the thought makes me giddy.. no I'm not kidding.  That would create a much healthier business/government/tax payer relationship.  A healthier dynamic makes momentum work for you in seen and unseen ways for years to come until the 15-30 years it takes for the next set of busy-bodies re-infest the structure.

I think a 20% corporate tax rate with a 5% discount for companies that keep on some side of a line about domestic employment meant to discourage outsourcing.

34 Use the force, T-Paw, use the force.

35
Here's a radical proposal for fundamental change:

Let's go back to first principles.

36 5 Flat Tax > Progressive Tax

Posted by: toby928� at June 08, 2011 11:37 AM (GTbGH)

Try having that discussion with a brain dead "progressive"

They say, if you make more money, you should pay more in taxes.  Alright genius, if you make $100K and pay 10% in taxes, how much money do you pay $10K.

If you make $200K and pay 10% in taxes how much money do you pay-$20K.

Is $20K more or less than $10K?  So if you make more money, do you pay more in taxes? 

37 With Paul Ryan on one side and Pawlenty on the other, the left is going to pop like a zit.  RINOs and Obamanomics will be hardest hit. 

38 Privatize the post office? Dude. T-Paw just said he wanted to sell the post office and Amtrack.

39 OHHH, YEA..... Wait a minute! What's this shit? Lower taxes? Letting people keep their own money? This is crap.

40 I really hate the estate tax. Had Zero had his way, my Dad's property would have been taxed, and I could not have come up with the money with 2 kids in college, without going into deep debt. I might have lost the property. And I really have a hard time with the thought that the state has rights to property over descendants. Screw the estate tax, and the wealth redistrubutors who like it.

41 I'm for zero estate tax.  We had to sell the family business when my father passed away to make sure my mom would be taken care of because if she passed away the government would have eaten every penny.  Essentially my sister never would have been able to hang onto the family business (4th generation.) We would have had to sell it to pay the tax.

The federal government is never satisfied in their thirst for our hard earned dollars, they even tax the dead.  That is just WRONG.

42 My version of tax reform would be to totally eliminate ALL existing federal taxes we currently have.

Enact a permanent flat tax of 15% on all income from all sources regardless of how much earned and permanently limit spending to the amount derived from that 15%.

I would make an exception for that spending limit on a declared war, but then spending must be reduced by 5% the following years until the debt was paid off.

43 Pawlenty certainly has seemed impressive as of late.  Of course, every GOP candidate since the beginning of history has said they were going to reform the tax code...

44 The estimates I've seen from the GAO (follow link) are that something like it takes 20% of taxes to pay for paying for taxes. That’s a crazy number, but looking at the number of people my own employer has on payroll for little more than tax compliance I can believe it. But that level of bureaucracy really stifles innovative startups—they have to become experts not just in whatever they’re innovating, but in navigating the tax bureaucracy (among all the other bureaucracies). I think the number one tax reform needs to be making it dead simple, obvious, and unobstructive. I’d even be willing to pay more in taxes if it was just a simple calculation that didn’t take a night at the computer or an afternoon at the tax consultant’s. The difficulty is that it will kill a major make-work industry that has grown up around navigating the bureaucracy.

45 -Paw just said he wanted to sell the post office and Amtrack.

Sheriff Joe is going to be pissed.

46 I don't understand any of this. What's a corporate tax? And what the heck is a Pawlenty? LOL.

*pops gum....twirls hair*

Hey, did you see that Kardashian girl's ring???

47 Zero out capital gains, very nice.

48
btw, again Obama said high gas prices are hurting household budgets.

Yeah, a-hole, but high fuel prices are also contracting the economy in every single sector.

49 The estate tax is nearly criminal, but it isn't worth the grief we'd face shelving it.

50 40 Privatize the post office?

Dude.

T-Paw just said he wanted to sell the post office and Amtrack. Posted by: ace at June 08, 2011 11:46 AM (nj1b

The room is spinning.  I can actually feel myself starting to really like one of our potential candidates....

51 And Geithner is a friggin clown. That boy genius, with brain of German Shepherd, must resign.

Posted by: Soothsayer at June 08, 2011 11:41 AM (G/zuv)

Please don't insult us!  We're much smarter than him.

52 It's my understanding that the death tax is of no real economic benefit.

(1) It's so high that it doesn't take in any revenue.
(2) Because it's so high, people go through extraordinary machinations to avoid it, hurting real economic growth.

53 Why tax the first $50,000 at 10% and why tax individuals more than businesses? That means that small business owners are paying higher taxes than corporations. 

54 I wish someone would address all the gardeners and cleaning ladies being paid by foks with cash.  Cash isn't reported at all.  And what about all those teachers and the guys/gals who give lessons in all kinds of things, that's cash, that isn't reported.  So there is a whole group of folks doing quite well who don't pay any tax and no one ever mentions them.

55 Is the T-Paw a man of regulation reform or the kind of guy who will shove at least half of the CFR into a shredder?  He looks kinda scrawny I doubt he could dead lift that much weight.

56 34, "The party cannot pitch relentlessly to the upper middle class. The more blue-collar/rural poor conservative is a backbone of the party. "

In political theory I agree with you Ace. But I think it's how you sell it to the under-50 crowd.  Sooner than later most people in this country are realize we're in really really deep shit.

So marketing core:  "All right folks, everyone's got to pull some weight to turn this country around.  Rich,  Poor.  All Americans.  No more class warfare; we're better than that."

Put a date deadline on the 5% until we correct the damned ship.  I know it sounds pretty damned stupid, but patriotism can be a strong incentive.

57 Cain on CNN.  Says gun control should be a state's decision.

Groan.  Scratch another one...

58

The estate tax is nearly criminal, but it isn't worth the grief we'd face shelving it.

 

But we should take a stand on social issues? 

Fuck that.

59 Groan.  Scratch another one...
Yep, he's done.

60 I agree w the three prong approach to getting America back on her feet: Sound energy policy. (Drill now + nucs) Tax policy that supports constitutional programs Cut/Add Regulations to keep industry productive but honest. That would go a long way to fixing the jam we are in.

61 11

I don't think wealth redistribution after death is a legitimate government function.  It is even worse than redistribution during life! 
Of course, I really won't care since I will be dead.

Especially if you consider the fact that the wealth accumulated during your life has once already been taxed. And in most cases taxed (state) and taxed (entitlement taxes like social security, medicare) and taxed (local) and taxed (real estate taxes - if that applies) and taxed (capital gain - if that applies) and taxed................

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life and Killer of Polar Bears at June 08, 2011 11:39 AM (OWjjx)

I think that is lost in the discussion alot. The idea behind the tax code is supposed to be you are taxed on every dollar on;y once (hence the idea of basis) The death tax defies this logic.

The death tax is also hugely regressive. Rich people seldom if ever pay it. Most hire people like myself to find ways around it increaing transaction costs and misallocating capital that could be used elsewhere. Who is hurt by the tax the most are landowners (like farmers or ranchers) and small family business owners that have a high "book" value to be taxed on but not a lot of liquid assets. This causes a death in one of these families to either end a sucessful business to meet tax burdens, or sell off assets that would otherwise be used to pay for them.

Not to mention the screwed up incentives this causes. If I can't leave something for my heirs, might as well blow it all on hookers and cocaine while I'm alive and give uncle sam the finger.  

62 53 It's my understanding that the death tax is of no real economic benefit.

(1) It's so high that it doesn't take in any revenue.
(2) Because it's so high, people go through extraordinary machinations to avoid it, hurting real economic growth.
Posted by: AmishDude

Amish,
You are absolutely right.  I've lived the nightmare, twice. Once in the Carter 70's and in the Clinton 90's.  It punishes hard work and small family business. I would burn the business to the ground rather than give the government one fucking penny.

63 And those long-distance dialers! Something needs to be done about them!

64 Paulenty's plan will lead to disaster. No sir we should all rally behind President Obama and his plan. Like he said, Bush handed him a mess larger then he knew and will take longer to repair. We must rally behind our leader and make this work !!!!!!

65 Of course, I really won't care since I will be dead.

Hrothgar, are you any relation to Congressman Anthony "Turgid" Weiner.  "Cause I saw him in an interview with Megyn Kelly over the Fox News regarding the Death Tax, and that was his entire argument, repeated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

Unfortunately. his snotty tone of voice when he said it can't be duplicated here in writing.  You really have to listen to it to enjoy be concerned be revolted by it.

66 AmishDude-- if that is the case, I'd be supportive. I had heard that claimed, that the death tax consumes more revenues than it brings in, and I believe that must mean "when you factor in all the lost income opportunities and costs of estate-tax-minimization efforts caused by the tax." I haven't researched the point, though, and cannot say I agree with this claim, on my own authority and using my own reason. For those questioning why I don't support repeal -- frankly, understand, I am not an expert on everything. In fact, I strain to imagine a single thing upon which I have an expertise. Weiner's dick, unfortunately. And then not much past that. So in many cases I am expressing what could be termed the proper modesty and caution that should attend ignorance. I'm not committed to many positions of a technical nature beyond my expertise, because I know so very little. So I just offer, tentatively, my first-blush gut reaction.

67
And that fool Bernanke says the hiring will increase when/if people start spending more.

wow, that is profound, Ben.
To paraphrase Zell Miller: What are they gonna use for money, Monopoly money?

no jobs = no income = no spending

Here's a crazy idea, Ben, Tim, and Barack, let's figure out why the private sector isn't hiring.

68 Gah.  Starting to feel like this is one big square-dance.  Back to T-Paw, at least until he manages to say something monumentally deal-breaking.

It seems they always do.

69 You forgot one- Rule of, and Consistent application of, Law.

This is the whole problem in a nutsack, really. We wouldn't need all these ridiculous regs and special laws for protected classes of people if we laws that were already on the books were enforced.
Plus we need to start hanging these shysters who keep finding loopholes.
Posted by: Soothsayer at June 08, 2011 11:44 AM (G/zuv)

It isn't that easy--we have to get rid of all the existing special interest laws and regulations that are already embedded in every aspect of our lives first. 
Every law and regulation should have a sunset provision.  Every law and regulation should be traceable to either the US Constitution or the appropriate State Constitution.
Every law and regulation should apply to all legislators and bureaucrats at every level.
Think it was George Will (I know, I know) that posed the question "   Name one thing that is not subject to the Commerce clause."   as one that should be asked of all SC nominees.  Of course the gentlepersons in the RINO party gave all the Obama nominees a pass.

70 And Geithner is a friggin clown. That boy genius, with brain of German Shepherd, must resign.
Posted by: Soothsayer


Grrrrrr .  Growl.  Snarl.  You might want to rethink that statement.

71

But we should take a stand on social issues? 

I hear ya', but I really am not a social issues guy. Econ geek, rather.

72 59 Cain on CNN.  Says gun control should be a state's decision.

Groan.  Scratch another one...

Posted by: AoSHQ's *second* worst commenter, DarkLord© at June 08, 2011 11:51 AM (GBXon)

No candidate is going to be perfect.  They're all going to have at least one position that we think is stupid.  We don't have to immediately write each one off -- 17 months before the election -- based on one statement.

73 Next time you're in DC, take a stroll past the IRS building. Keep strolling. The IRS fortress goes on for blocks. Think those thousands of bitter paper pushers are going down this easy? Fat chance.

74
and please Stop Printing Money!

75 I am liking T-Paw more and more. Putting it out there; not afraid to show us how he will lead; making pretty specific policy declarations. This will stand in stark contrast to Teh One's re-election strategy which is to run "not as an incumbent".

Seriously, how the hell do you run "not as an incumbent" when you are the incumbent? I hope some of the 52% will realize they are being played for fools. I am willing to bet at least 3% of them voted for purely "historic" reasons. Hopefully they will now vote for purely penitential reasons this time around.

76 Geitner saved us from the great deprssion #2. I stand by him and presadent obama and we should do are duties as citizens and support them.

77 This reminds me of the time I told John Kerry a story I had never told anyone before, about how when my wife went to get bone marrow transplants I was transplanting my bone into the maid.

78 We don't have to immediately write each one off -- 17 months before the election -- based on one statement.

It's not even the statement itself--I could accept the premise that he misspoke.  It's that he's starting to make Palin look absolutely disciplined by comparison.  And that, I think, would be fatal.

79 So tell me why the death tax is any different than any other grave robber.

80

The obvious problem with reforming the tax code is there are too many vested interests against it.

Think about the accountants, lawyers, and every asshole interest group (I'm looking at you realtors) who have a loophole somewhere in there they use to entrench thier business.

81

9

Mittens = Mitt.

At least in my book.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at June 08, 2011 11:43 AM (SCcgT)

Understood, just never like to pass up a chance to bash the JEF- apologies for ignoring your cogent point- that is, time for Captain Cornbrero to respond to a real economic plan. 

Seems my loathing of the baritone bastard is running a bit high today.

82 ace- I don't think you need to be conversant with the ins and outs of the revenue generation versus cost of the Estate Tax to know that it fails the very basic philosophy of what belongs to the individual versus what belongs to the individual. For me, it has always been at the core of big government versus the individual.

83 This is only good news for us,  even if TPaw doesn't win this should help drag Romney back to the right on some economic stuff.  I still think that club for growth review on Romney was right on.

84 I kind of think this too, but right now they're not paying anything, so what, we raise taxes on the poorest Americans?

They are not only not paying they are getting a end of year bonus from the rest of us. If his plan cuts the tax breaks so they don't pay but also they don't get paid it will be a giant leap in the right direction

85

Not to mention the screwed up incentives this causes. If I can't leave something for my heirs, might as well blow it all on hookers and cocaine while I'm alive and give uncle sam the finger.  

Posted by: Jollyroger at June 08, 2011 11:52 AM (NCw5u) 

I shall have to seriously consider that option!

Since the dealers and hookers run on a cash basis, uncle will get nada from my estate!

86 Who the hell would buy Amtrak?  It loses money everywhere except the DC to Boston run. 

All this doesn't matter anyway.  The earth is full and we are all going to die anyway (according to Tom Friedman).

87 OT: The DOE sends a SWAT team to break down the door of someone who defaulted on their student loans.  WTF?!  Ben posted a link in the sidebar.  Turns out the deadbeat no longer lived there, but they apprehended the spouse and his children while they searched the house.  Where's the rest of the media on this (and the SWAT team murder of an Iraq vet in AZ)?

88 That's DOE as in the Department of EDUCATION, btw.

89

So tell me why the death tax is any different than any other grave robber.

 

There is no difference it is state sponsored theft. 

90 how does pawlenty feel about republicans hinting they'd go for a brief period of default?

91 40 Privatize the post office? Dude. T-Paw just said he wanted to sell the post office and Amtrack. Posted by: ace at June 08, 2011 11:46 AM (nj1bB) Whoa. Be still, my beating heart. If he could actually reform the tax code, dump Amtrak and the USPS, and slash regulation he'd do a lot of good. Let's see if these proposals disappear or not. We've been teased before...

92 So tell me why the death tax is any different than any other grave robber.

Posted by: maddogg at June 08, 2011 11:58 AM (OlN4e)

Conventional grave robbers have principles!

93 59 Cain on CNN.  Says gun control should be a state's decision.

On the bright side, if this actually came to pass it would provide a handy way to determine who came with the Constitutionalists when the USA dropped their U.

Remember- when life gives you lemons, throw them at someone you hate make lemonade.

94 Ace,
Until you have lived the nightmare that is the Estate Death Tax you have no idea the pain it causes families.  Small business like ours the question was "Where do we get the money to pay the taxes?"  It's all wrapped up in the business.  Do we sell and therefore cheat our children out of the opportunity to carry on the family tradition? After my Aunt died in the late 70's the IRS plainly told my dad "we don't care if you have to sell the business, we want OUR money now."  Then it was a replay in the 90's when my dad died. Yup, I'm fucking bitter.

95

Posted by: JackStraw at June 08, 2011 11:59 AM (TMB3S)

 

This makes three times I agree, wholeheartedly, with JackStraw.

96 I applaud T-Paw for putting detailed plans out for criticism.  There is a shitload of money on K Street that isn't going to like this...

97 Had high hopes for Cain to be picked for VP but an epic 2nd amendment fail puts him down a the very crowded bottom of the barrel with Giuliani, Huck, Mitt, and Newt.

98 So tell me why the death tax is any different than any other grave robber.

Grave robbing- another shovel ready project brought to you by the ARRA.

You're welcome, peasants.

99 So tell me why the death tax is any different than any other grave robber.


There is no difference.  Ace poked at a real sore spot with me on this topic.
They are ghouls waiting for the last turn of dirt so they can mug you on the way out of the cemetery.

100 You folks trashing Cain's statement need to remember back to the original debates we had back when the Washington DC gun case was being held.

Whether or not the second amendment applies to the State and local authorities depends on whether or not you hold with "incorporation". When the Constitution was first written those amendments only applied to the federal government. That is how some States have had onerous gun control laws for a long time. Since then using the 14th amendment the Supreme Court started applying selected ones to the States.

The problem was the second and part of the 5th were never applied.  My argument back during that case was we need to apply them all or apply none. If we are going to have incorporation then the 2nd should be incorporated (as well as all of the 5th).

Well the DC case finally got around to incorporating the 2nd. So according to the current SCOTUS the second applies to the States, but previous more liberal courts it didn't.

101 I'm skeptical, because there are far too many run-on sentences and inconsistent comma usage in this post.

102 T-Paw just said he wanted to sell the post office and Amtrack the little engine that couldn't.
Posted by: ace at June 08, 2011 11:46 AM (nj1bB)

FTFY.

103 10%:  Good enough for God, damn plenty good enough for government.

104 I suspect T-Paw's mouth is writing checks his ass can't cash. He knows it, but is doing what is necessary to get some name recognition. He may not mean any of it. If not, that will start to show, then it will work against him.

105 Keep in mind some of these master-politicians know damned-good-and-well that most of these pronouncements will never get passed on Planet D.C.  So they're somewhat less judicious in throwing out red-meat marvelous policy for people like us.

106

Ace, what is it with you and the death tax?

I simply don't understand it.

Did you go to school with some trust fund babies that you hated or something?

 

107 I'm in an anti-deficit frame of mind more than a pro-growth one

They aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

But aside the supply-side fight for a moment, if you think cutting taxing means less revenue, you just cut more spending to "pay" for them (again, put that aside).

Pawlenty seems to be arguing for an "all of the above" strategy...less spending, lower taxes, more growth.

It's also good politics. It's hard for people to see how less government spending puts money in their pockets. Growing the economy, jobs and wages is an easy sell.

Overly optimistic? Maybe but I like the direction. A lot.

108 If you can't figure out how to avoid the estate tax, you deserve your fate. Are most people too cheap to spend the $1,500 bucks?

109 >>This makes three times I agree, wholeheartedly, with JackStraw. If I could actually make sense here while trying to work we might agree more. I meant to say what belongs to the individual versus what belongs to the state.

110 right now I guess I'm in an anti-deficit frame of mind more than a pro-growth one. The rub. Selling tax increases to anyone will likely fail, especially to those whom Bush foolishly let leave the tax rolls altogether. The bigger problem is related to obsessions with revenue neutrality. We've lately noticed something... the freaking gubmint is spending way, way, way too much. You know what would be nice? Revenue negativity, the gubmint taking in less because it should be spending less... except that it doesn't work that way. Gubmint needs to take less in taxes and spend less altogether. Gubmint has been spending more than it steals from our pockets for decades and decades. It continues, at an accelerated pace, under the enlightened despotism of President Affirmative Action, Harbinger of A New Fiscal Responsibility and Healer of Partisan Wounds. Our society and its expectations of gubmint is like a very large, very overfed, very stupid cat who has crawled out to the end of a dead limb on a decrepit, dying tree. First, he has to want to climb down. Second, if he's lucky he can inch back or drop to a limb below, but that is tricky and the limb might break anyway. In a society so dependent on transfer payments from gubmint that is administrated by people who are chosen on the basis of how generous they promise to be with other people's money, how can you hoodwink voters to vote for less goodies, much less paying more in taxes? No demotard runs on raising taxes yet they always do it. The tax policy is a big deal in 2012, no doubt. However the much higher, more perilous limb on the fiscal tree is our fresh multi-trillion dollar deficit, courtesy B. Hussein Obama. (Not to omit things like Bush's Medicare Part D, another huge liability.) No tax policy in Alice's Wonderland can cure that. It may be the only politically realisitc way that cat is getting down from the tree is Monty's way... a leap of DOOM.

111 Well, since Romney's going full retard on me, I think T-paw is doing nice by me. Look, the reason IMHO that the USPS is going bankrupt is probably because, like every other federal government job, it's an entitlement program. I bet the true costs are insane midlevel management expenses, pensions and I also bet there's a long-island-level of disability fraud. Any privatization of the USPS would probably involve a massive firing of useless deadwood and cancelling of pensions.

112 I'm in an anti-deficit frame of mind more than a pro-growth one

They aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

No they are not. You need one before you can get the other. A bit of the ole which came first, the marsupial or the egg argument.

113

10%:  Good enough for God, damn plenty good enough for government.

 

We only take 8%.  Join us.

114 My core issue with the Death Tax is the level of crap paperwork it brings into the whole arena for the very low rewards.

The "Gift Tax" exists pretty much entirely to prevent people from avoiding the Death Tax by just giving the money away.

So... eliminate some of the supporting structure and paperwork requirements -> the Death Tax would sit there as a complete dead letter.

115 At least 70% of this country will never hear the DOE SWAT story. Yet, some have hopes that a politician can coherently explain the idea of a flat tax, all the while the media will report on it in a fair and accurate fashion?

Riiiiiiiight. 

116

Also, I'm under the impression we can't privatize the post office as it's in Article one section 8 of the constitution, right?

Won't that mean we need an amendment to privatize the post office?

Wouldn't that require a 2/3 majority in the house and senate?

Is that possible? Everytime I go into the post office and deal with the people down there, I assume it is a jobs program for the democrats core constituency. Why would democrats do that to a large block of their voters?

117 I had managed to block out the fact that Ace is squishy on the death tax.

I've said some version of this before, but:  the money's already been taxed once.  More importantly, you can reach an impressive-sounding, million dollar or more value figure on a farm or a small business, the kind of thing a free country would let you pass on to your heirs, and the death tax is steep enough people end up selling them off to pay the tax.  I don't think the big city elite, on a successful corporate or legal career track understand how unjust and maddening that is - they just know they don't mind paying it, so why should anyone else, even though they've got their own kids set on the same path as them and it actually takes less of a real bite.

I'm okay in principle with a death tax on the super-wealthy, but oddly enough those are the ones who find ways to shelter their money in foundations and leave the bulk of it untouched, even while preaching that the "rich" should have their taxes raised.  There doesn't seem to be any reliable way to set the floor high enough without having it demagogued down by politicians pandering to voters who think one million dollars is a lot of money, when for a farm or business it may just be a successful single proprietorship.  But, if we could get a deal where we taxed everybody at 10% including foundation bequests by the really big fortunes I might be okay with that.

118
I love Human Cain. But he and all the other candidates have to know better than to get in these silly Q&A's with the MBM.

When they ask you about guns, you answer with a remark about the economy.

When they ask about religion, you answer with a solution to Obama's high gas prices.

When they ask you about Sarah Palin, Paul Revere, your friggin iPod, you answer with a comment on unemployment.

119 Keep talking T-Paw.  You're making me horny.

120 96 Ace,
Until you have lived the nightmare that is the Estate Death Tax you have no idea the pain it causes families.  Small business like ours the question was "Where do we get the money to pay the taxes?"  It's all wrapped up in the business.  Do we sell and therefore cheat our children out of the opportunity to carry on the family tradition? After my Aunt died in the late 70's the IRS plainly told my dad "we don't care if you have to sell the business, we want OUR money now."  Then it was a replay in the 90's when my dad died. Yup, I'm fucking bitter.

Posted by: mpfs at June 08, 2011 12:02 PM (iYbLN)

My great grandpa was a rancher who had a lot of land with a high book value, but it was also the basis of the family business. When he died in the 60s (at the top of the estate tax rates) my grandpa had to sell off land and what was described as thousands of head of cattle during a drought (when prices are at thier lowest). It took decades for him to recover.

121

If you're deficit conscious, Ace, then take heart with the fact that we really have two (three?) plans now that will that would have an immediate effect on that very thing.

First, and foremost, is repealing Obamacare.  Then re-align that with Ryan's plan to overhaul Medicare and a large chunk of the deficit goes away.

Second, tax cuts, especially corporate tax cuts (I prefer tax cuts for everyone, though) will actually increase revenue as has been proven time and time again.  The government needs to get out of the way of the free market.  It's the free market that gives, not only this nation, but the world it's prosperity.

And finally, a coherent "green-less" energy policy.  Drill, baby, drill. 

122 Posted by: Soothsayer at June 08, 2011 12:07 PM (G/zuv)

and that's how you beat Capone.

123 75 Next time you're in DC, take a stroll past the IRS building.

Keep strolling.

The IRS fortress goes on for blocks.

Think those thousands of bitter paper pushers are going down this easy?

Fat chance.

Posted by: Pecos Bill at June 08, 2011 11:54 AM (j84s0)

After this hike wander over to the Department of Agriculture leviathan.  It was the largest office building in the world until the Pentagon was finished.  They moved the laboratories to Beltsville so now it is all offices.  What the fuck do they do in this monstrosity??

124 Just watched Pawlenty on the Kudlow videos,  I am comfortable with him.  He was a much better speaker on this stuff then I expected.


I look forward to this future headline after his plan passes.

"Economy grows,  accountants and lawyers specializing in tax loopholes hardest hit. "

125 Pawlenty is really taking some big swings recently.  Telling Iowa to take its ethanol subsidies and pound sand, and now this -- an actual *plan*, complete with details 'n stuff, as opposed to "elect me...and then a miracle happens and prosperity for all."

I like it.  It's exactly what he has to in order to gain traction, and he's doing it right.

126 111 If you can't figure out how to avoid the estate tax, you deserve your fate. Are most people too cheap to spend the $1,500 bucks?

I hope you're kidding.  The people who can afford to "avoid" the estate tax shell out a hell of a lot more than 1,500 bucks for lawyers and such.

The death tax is morally repugnant, end of story. 

127

Ace, what is it with you and the death tax?

heh, better not ask him about the gas tax holiday, then

128 And finally, a coherent "green-less" energy policy.  Drill, baby, drill.

I'd add "Frackin' frack, now. You frackers."

129
It's the Chicago Way!

130 The IRS fortress goes on for blocks.

This is how the Republicans should frame a tax overhaul. Just show visuals and #s of employees in ads/commercials. Otherwise, explaining a tax rewrite becomes akin to Dr. Henry Lee explaining DNA strands to the OJ jurors

*Bueller...Bueller....blank stare*

131 Has any candidate suggested nuking Iran? Just curious.

132

Here's what the 1040 EZ Form should look like:

1. How much did you make?  _______________

2. Multiply line 1 by .10         _______________

3. Pay amount from line 2

133 It's the Chicago Way!

I muffed it though, it's GET Capone.

But seriously, you are so right on how to deal with the MFM.

134 > 119 Also, I'm under the impression we can't privatize the post office as it's in Article one section 8 of the constitution, right? Posted by: Ben It would be easy, even trivial, for Obama to do this as he would just ignore the consitution and nobody would call him on it. A Pres. Pawlenty would have to deal with constitutional issues to sell off the PO. Also, did you catch this from his speech (the one on Monday) "Markets Work. Barack Obama's Central Planning Doesn't" Oh be still my beating heart!

135 I don't know Ace's problem with the Death Tax but playing Devil's Advocate....the politics of it aren't great.

Yes, you can facts (small business people get hit hardest by it) and fairness (taxes were already paid on it, not gov't job to redistribute wealth etc) but it's simply an easy issue for Dems to hit when you're trying to do other things.

Class Warfare sucks but you have to decide how many fronts you are going to fight on sometimes.

That said, I want it eliminated too.

136 Kratos, that's the cost to form an inter-vivos trust. that's all it takes...

137 >> Who the hell would buy Amtrak?  It loses money everywhere except the DC to Boston run. 

I would buy it (for the right price) and shut down everything except the DC to Boston run.

138 joeindc44@114: Look, the reason IMHO that the USPS is going bankrupt is probably because, like every other federal government job, it's an entitlement program. According to USPS defenders, the reason that it runs a deficit is that the federal government requires it to pay into a government safety net plan. The billions of dollars that the government “loans” the USPS are (according to this story) paid back to the federal government to cover a fund for retirement/health care benefits that (according to the story) aren’t needed and so the fund is just used to balance against the debt. I don’t understand that last part (about the fund not being needed). But the one thing I do likely understand is that, if true, this means that the federal government is double-counting this money. They’re loaning it to the USPS; that loan is an asset; the fact that it’s never going to be paid back is ignored. This means that the loan is revenue neutral. But then the USPS gives it back to the government fund. Which gets counted against the debt. Free money! I hear this story and I get the opposite feeling I’m supposed to. Rather than feeling sorry for the USPS I want to kill it now before that fake money gets even bigger.

139 Rush is about to lose a listener...I can't take his championing of Palin any longer.

140

DaveR,

It gets taxed more than once. Especially depending on how you make the 250K.

Let's say you're an S-Corp, then not only are you paying federal income tax, state income tax, Local Earned Income Tax, Social Security Tax, Medicare Tax, and Local Services Tax(varies depending where you business is). And those are just the taxes out of your paycheck.

If you're the owner of the business, you also pay the capital stock tax as well as the countless state fees for permits depending on what you're selling. Or if you actually produce goods, chemicals, etc, then you have to pay tens of thousands of dollars to comply with government rules and regulations.

So after paying all those taxes and fees, you then are taxed everytime you buy something(sales tax) and even if you buy it in a state with no sales tax, chances are the state you live in has a "Use Tax" which requires you to pay the state you live in the sales tax you should have paid on those items, even though they weren't produced in the state.

You have to pay property taxes which continue to increase.  You have to pay all sorts of fees to own a car. The list goes on.

So in the end you're taxed continually on the money you earn.

Then the government says at the end of your life, if you were successfull, they get a 55% cut of what you were able to save or invest.

 

141 The attitude from Washington, D.C.
If it moves, tax it.
If it breathes, tax it.
If it's dead, tax it.
If it's still dead, tax it again.
Oh wait, just for fun....lets tax it again.  Bwhahahaha!

Fuckers.

142 I'd like to second what DrewM. said about Pawlenty's strategy: T-Paw would be stupid politically -- as in, suicidal and loserish -- if he tried to run an economic campaign on deficit-cutting alone.  He NEEDS to frame it primarily in terms of "pro-growth" and "jobs" if he wants to win the nomination or beat Obama.

Here's a fact: America cares right now about the deficit and the budget, which gives conservatives an opening that we, to the best of my knowledge, haven't had politically in our lifetimes.  But do you know WHY America cares?  Because the economy is so goddamn shitty.  Because people are out of jobs, with no hope seemingly in sight.  If the economy were roaring, and everyone was employed, do you really think the voters would *really* care about the deficit, regardless of its true looming threat?  Of course not -- it's an abstraction to them.  They care NOW because they're looking around, trying to find something to blame for these horrible economic doldrums we're in (and the prophecies of worse to come), and that's the most obvious 'bad actor' in the room.

But if we try to run a campaign on saying "forget about growth, job-creation is of secondary importance, what we really need to worry about is cutting government spending" we'll get hammered.  We need to focus on that when/if we get into office, and we need to include it as part of our package, but the average American voter is much more interested in the simple bottom line of "will I get a paycheck or not?" 

Therefore, Pawlenty's plan is not only politically smart, it's the ONLY politically smart for him (or any GOP candidate) to run: pro-growth and deficit-reduction at the same time.

143 @199 "Also, I'm under the impression we can't privatize the post office as it's in Article one section 8 of the constitution, right?"

The Congress shall have Power To ... To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

When's the last time you saw a post road?

That is: Just because they -have- the power to establish it, doesn't mean they -shall-. And it doesn't mean "No one else shall do anything like this either!" Otherwise, death to UPS/FedEx, etc.

If we insist: "No, we still need one!" Then we establish -one- (ok, -two- to match the plural). Anyone who wants their -official- USPS mail can pick it up willcall at Yellowstone. Normal people can get theirs from the mailbox delivered by UPS or whoever wins the local delivery contract.

144 113:  Every time I look at the way the sheer scale of the modern American welfare state, I keep trying to look over how you would extricate yourself, what would be required and what the inevitable consequences would be, realistically.

I never like what I find.  And my confidence in managing the outcome is...minimal.

Zombie Apocalypse.  It's not just for movies anymore.

145 Okay, I have had the criticism before that Pawlenty only represented a "competent and not scary" candidate. But I am liking the cut of his jib. Bring on the scary!

146 Q. What's the difference between government and prostitutes?

A. Prostitutes quit fucking you after you're dead.

147 Also, I'm under the impression we can't privatize the post office as it's in Article one section 8 of the constitution, right?

Why? Just because the Congress has the constitutional power to do something doesn't mean it must do that thing.

Presidents have the power to pardon but no president must pardon people.

148 140 >> Who the hell would buy Amtrak?  It loses money everywhere except the DC to Boston run. 

I would buy it (for the right price) and shut down everything except the DC to Boston run.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at June 08, 2011 12:15 PM (WvXvd)

There will be a large portion of the 19,000 workers with fat benefit plans and pensions that may not like your solution.  Just sayin'.

149 If we have the opportunity to reform and rewrite the tax code, then you better damned well make sure EVERYONE has skin in the game.

This bullshit with a third of the fucking country paying ZERO taxes has got to stop.

150
I would not be surprised to find out Tim and Rick have an alliance.

Very intriguing ticket, Pawlenty/Perry.

151 It's the Chicago Way!

Posted by: Soothsayer at June 08, 2011 12:11 PM (G/zuv)

I see that Rahm Emanuel has promised that he'll find the Chicago thugs.  I wonder if he has checked in the mirror.

152 96
After my Aunt died in the late 70's the IRS plainly told my dad "we don't care if you have to sell the business, we want OUR money now." Then it was a replay in the 90's when my dad died. Yup, I'm fucking bitter.

Posted by: mpfs at June 08, 2011 12:02 PM (iYbLN)

But, but, the financial expert at MarketWatch said that the death tax "only affects a relatively few descendentsÂ’ assets" and that Bill Gates's family won't be hurting when he croaks.  So, like, quit yer bitchin'!

153 I'm against the punitive death taxes. Of course, my family is at a stage where we have to start considering these things. (It's not all gloom- I'm about to attend my grandmother's 100th birthday ) The death tax destroys families. Not from all the in-fighting you see on TV, rather it forces the kids to sell the family home and the family business. The tangible things that connected them all and connected them to a town. Sure, some people do all the trust lawyer stuff, but how many? The default tax is "Fuck you, surviving family, we win!", you go your separate ways, and isolate yourselves. A bearable tax on transfer of ownership, ok, I can see that. I'm all for flat taxes. But to come after a family's assets like they're criminals...

154 For those questioning why I don't support repeal -- frankly, understand, I am not an expert on everything. In fact, I strain to imagine a single thing upon which I have an expertise. Let's make this real simple, then. IT'S NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY. It has been earned and taxed, either through income taxes or capital gains taxes. What gives anyone the right to take over half the shit you've busted your ass for your entire life, so you can leave a legacy to your kids? So you can give them a better life than you had? Now, somebody bring up the "Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are for the estate tax!" Defense so I can beat it to death with my penis.

155 131 ... battlestar fan?

156 Also, I'm under the impression we can't privatize the post office as it's in Article one section 8 of the constitution, right?

If they scaled it back to a system that did not include home delivery you would essentially end the USPS.

157 "Rush is about to lose a listener...I can't take his championing of Palin any longer."

Garrett, I'm listening.  He states emphatically that he's not endorsing her.  He's merely explaining how she's playing the Dems, RINO's and MFM like a fiddle and getting the expected reaction from them, thus demonstrating that she is not stupid but smart.

BTW, I'm leaning toward T-paw.

158 29 Well Ace, studies have consistently shown that tax revenue always stabilizes to about 18.2% of GDP. It will go up or down for a short period based on tax law changes but the major thing that drives it is GDP.  Since GDP is dependent on how good the economy is then the only real way to grow revenue is to grow the economy.

Reagan proved this way back years ago so it is not just theory.

Posted by: Vic at June 08, 2011 11:44 AM (M9Ie6) Reading that was like drinking a smoooooooth espresso in a warm sun. I think you are my fave, Vic!

159 T-Paw would be stupid politically -- as in, suicidal and loserish -- if he tried to run an economic campaign on deficit-cutting alone. He NEEDS to frame it primarily in terms of "pro-growth" and "jobs" if he wants to win the nomination or beat Obama. This is certain. You can't sell a campaign on deficit-cutting alone. Sadly, as with many things in life, the most urgent matters are sidelined in favor of easier tasks. Nevertheless, no one is getting control of the WH and the Senate by selling green eyeshades.

160 This bullshit with a third of the fucking country paying ZERO taxes has got to stop.
Posted by: Unclefacts Luxury-Yacht

You forgot to add that they get a check and pay zero taxes.  But wait... my family was rich because we had a small business so we deserved to be punished for employing people, being good citizens, etc.  Yeah, I get it now.

161 About the USPS and it's constitutionality.  Doesn't the constitution say that the government needs to assure the nation's postal needs, but not necessarily own it?

162
Chicago thugs = anybody who opposes the Daley/Emmanuel Political Machine

163

Also, I'm under the impression we can't privatize the post office as it's in Article one section 8 of the constitution, right?

Why? Just because the Congress has the constitutional power to do something doesn't mean it must do that thing.

Presidents have the power to pardon but no president must pardon people.

If you say so, that's why I asked it. I didn't state it as fact.

I just know they have the power in the constitution, i didn't realize they didn't have to utilize that power.

 

164 2. Multiply line 1 by .10 _______________ 3. Pay amount from line 2 Posted by: Marmo at June 08, 2011 12:13 PM (InrkQ) Exactly. I think the amount has to be around .18 to dampen the economy enough, but imagine restricting Congress to simply voting on that number and being held accountable for the effects.

165
Now, somebody bring up the "Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are for the estate tax!" Defense so I can beat it to death with my penis.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 08, 2011 12:19 PM (lbo6/)

Warren Buffet is for the death tax because he makes a shitload of money buying the companies from survivors who have to pay the fucking tax. 

Oh and fuck him sideways with a pineapple.  He put his money into a trust so the Gubmint leaches won't get it when he takes his dirtnap

166 Every time I look at the way the sheer scale of the modern American welfare state, I keep trying to look over how you would extricate yourself... I never like what I find. And my confidence in managing the outcome is...minimal. Sic transit gloria mundi.

167 What gives anyone the right to take over half the shit you've busted your ass for your entire life, so you can leave a legacy to your kids? So you can give them a better life than you had?

Exaclty....you bust your ass for your kids....but your kids get buttkis and the ghetto libs get your ass bustin rewards.

168

Now, somebody bring up the "Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are for the estate tax!" Defense so I can beat it to death with my penis.

I got 50 bucks on the penis in the second round

169 Who the hell would buy Amtrak? It loses money everywhere except the DC to Boston run. Joe Biden. Using your money.

170 Now, somebody bring up the "Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are for the estate tax!" Defense so I can beat it to death with my penis. Posted by: Empire of Jeff

I love you Jeff. You are my hero.

171 Now, somebody bring up the "Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are for the estate tax!" Defense so I can beat it to death with my penis. Do you have my Twitter address?

172 Posted by: Al at June 08, 2011 12:17 PM (MzQOZ)

There are lots of ways to make the Post Office efficient.

1. Ban all business other than 1st class mail.
2. Use UPS, FedEx, and anyone else to move the mail from post office to post office. Then just use the post office to deliver the last few steps.
3. Decertify the postal worker's union.
4. Pass a law matching the postal worker's wages to similar private industry jobs, with the requisite productivity standards.

173 You may refer to me as "Your Thugginess" ...

174 I want some one to propose selling part of the 84.5% of Nevada that the Feds own.  Or some of the 69.1% of Alaska, or the freakin 45.3% of freakin California.

175 Next time you're in DC, take a stroll past the IRS building.

Keep strolling.

The IRS fortress goes on for blocks.

Think those thousands of bitter paper pushers are going down this easy?

Fat chance.

Posted by: Pecos Bill at June 08, 2011 11:54 AM (j84s0)

And when you get to the main entrance look up and see the inscription that is chiseled into the stone above it: "TAXES MUST BE PAID"

Yeah, they're not going anywhere without a fight...

176 I'm with you on having greater concern for the deficit, Ace. There is too much of an element of faith and too many broad assumptions that lowering the taxes yields an equal or greater gain in revenue. We MUST pay for what we spend. I am skeptical of bringing capital gains tax to 0% for things like stocks. It doesn't make a lot of sense to exempt a source of income from taxation that by and large is enjoyed only by the wealthy.

177 Posted by: Ben at June 08, 2011 12:22 PM (wuv1c)

sorry, I didn't mean it to come off harshly.

Imma gonna blame the allergy attack I'm under and the meds I'm on.

178 I'm actually skeptical
Posted by: Ace at 11:32 AM

That you Allah, Ed???

179 As for Palin, she is an irresponsible, egotistical woman who gives no thought as to how she could be endangering others through her actions. The article mentions the media caravan, but doesn't talk about the chaos created, as in Philadelphia, when the reporters don't know where she's going to show up and run madly about trying to find her. If someone gets hurt, guess who's going to deny she's responsible for any of it and cast aspersions on anyone who tries to say she is--just as she did when Kathy Gifford was shot. Such behavior would not be entirely surprising from an immature, aspiring Hollywood star; it is disturbing from someone who makes any pretense of aspiring to a responsible position.

180 Sic transit gloria mundi.

Great.  So the Europe we're turning into is Roman Europa, just before it came apart.

It could be worse.  We could be the Byzantines...

181

Multiply line 1 by .10 _______________

3. Pay amount from line 2

On this subject. Is there anyone who fills out the 1040 by hand anymore.

I can't even really figure it out, so i've switched over to online tax software.

I've been thinking about buying rental property, and if i do I may have to get a CPA because it gets even more complicated.

I really do wish the tax system was simple and not ever changing system of loopholes and complex equations.

Considering , thanks to our schools, the average american can barely do basic math, it's probably a good idea to have the tax system be as mathematically easy as possible.

182 If we have the opportunity to reform and rewrite the tax code, then you better damned well make sure EVERYONE has skin in the game.

This bullshit with a third of the fucking country paying ZERO taxes has got to stop.

Posted by: Unclefacts Luxury-Yacht at June 08, 2011 12:19 PM (6IReR)

 

Absolutely agree.  And while we're at it, repeal the fed tax withholding law.  Everyone should write that check every April.  It's the only way to make people aware of what the government is taking from them.

 

183 >>So in the end you're taxed continually on the money you earn. That little statement is at the core, or should be, of any tax reform discussion. Taxes were intended to give the government the necessary funds to perform it's Constitutional duties. Not to transfer wealth from productive to non-productive, not to pick winners in the market, not to create out of whole cloth brand new duties that a majority of the people don't even want. Yet that is exactly what Washington has been doing for years. In 1940, the population of the US was approximately 130 million and federal tax receipts in 2005 dollars were about $81 billion. In 2010 the numbers were 308 million and $2 trillion and we all know the enormous deficit we incurred last year. Our government has gone from providing the core duties they were charged with performing (and not doing them very well) to studying the mating habits of obscure lizards in a remote part of the Arizona desert and finding new and creative ways to tell us we need to cough up more and more every year for this lunacy. We are taxed enough. Stop fucking spending.

184

sorry, I didn't mean it to come off harshly.

Imma gonna blame the allergy attack I'm under and the meds I'm on.

My response wasn't meant to be harsh either, but pixy's damn italics wouldn't come off so i had to make my statement bold so people could discern it from what i copied and pasted from your response.

I honestly didn't realize that government had the option on the post office, I thought it was a mandatory duty.

 

Hope you feel better.

185 177 I want some one to propose selling part of the 84.5% of Nevada that the Feds own.  Or some of the 69.1% of Alaska, or the freakin 45.3% of freakin California.

Posted by: toby928™ at June 08, 2011 12:25 PM (GTbGH)

Good idea....but, of course, land values suck right now so the revenue raised would be awful low.

186 just as she did when Kathy Gifford was shot.

I have an alibi.

187 #182

Okay Lisa time for your meds.  That's a good girl.  Time for your nap.

188 189

LOL

189 As I stated higher up:

If you can kill the Gift Tax - which generally makes precisely zero revenue (because everyone, everyone either manages to avoid it with shenanigans or ends up actually paying the tax after death - that is, they pay the death tax instead), you gut the death tax of any sense.

"We're dropping a tax that makes no revenue and requires onerous bookkeeping. But we're going to keep taxing those rascally evil rich folk to death once they're dead. (Psst, hand over the reins to the farking family business moron.)"

190 137 Kratos, that's the cost to form an inter-vivos trust. that's all it takes...

I doubt forming this inter-vivos trust is all it takes to avoid the death-tax man, given the heart-wrenching stories from mpfs and others.  And do you think the gov't would forfeit millions of dollars of (ill-gained) revenue by allowing it to be circumvented by a measly 1.5k? 

And if this was the case, that just makes the death tax more irrelevant. 

149 Q. What's the difference between government and prostitutes?

A. Prostitutes quit fucking you after you're dead.

Funny, I use that same joke about lawyers, .  (Ironically, I heard it from the movie The Rainmaker, which was adapted from the John Grisham novel of the same name).

/I'm kidding, atc, lu, and all the other lawyers who are here!  Please don't erase my name from existance. 

191 Hey, there's a mock David Frum thread up.

192 Posted by: Ben at June 08, 2011 12:28 PM (wuv1c)

Beating up on Pixy and his magical mystery web machine is something we can all agree on!

Thanks.

193 I'm with you on having greater concern for the deficit, Ace. There is too much of an element of faith and too many broad assumptions that lowering the taxes yields an equal or greater gain in revenue. We MUST pay for what we spend. I am skeptical of bringing capital gains tax to 0% for things like stocks. It doesn't make a lot of sense to exempt a source of income from taxation that by and large is enjoyed only by the wealthy.

Posted by: Crispian at June 08, 2011 12:25 PM (ULTcD)

 

Is that you, Barak?

194

you can kill the Gift Tax - which generally makes precisely zero revenue (because everyone, everyone either manages to avoid it with shenanigans or ends up actually paying the tax after death - that is, they pay the death tax instead), you gut the death tax of any sense

I forgot, what are the details on the gift tax?

Can't you give someone like 12,000 a month and not be hit by the tax, or is it 12,000 a year?

 

Here is the concept everyone needs to understand.

The money is almost never entirely yours.

You pay payroll taxes on it, but you can't spend it or give it away without being taxed on it.

 

195

Funny, I use that same joke about lawyers, .  (Ironically, I heard it from the movie The Rainmaker, which was adapted from the John Grisham novel of the same name).

/I'm kidding, atc, lu, and all the other lawyers who are here!  Please don't erase my name from existance. 

(Muttering) See if I set you up that inter vivos trust....

 

196 People below $50k should not get off the hook. Damnit, that's who vote for liberals. They must put skin in the game; at the very least tax them at 5%.

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at June 08, 2011 11:42 AM (MPtFW)

+10

197 I honestly didn't realize that government had the option on the post office, I thought it was a mandatory duty.

Hell, if they can treat immigration control and border security as optional...

198 I've got zero problem jettisoning Amtrak, but IIRC the post office is actually supported by the US constitution, and you can make a reasonably good constitutional argument for keeping it.

As to the rest of T.Paws tax reform, sign me up.

Any iteration of what he's proposing will be FAR better than our current system.

199 182 As for Palin, she is an irresponsible, egotistical woman who gives no thought as to how she could be endangering others through her actions. The article mentions the media caravan, but doesn't talk about the chaos created, as in Philadelphia, when the reporters don't know where she's going to show up and run madly about trying to find her. If someone gets hurt, guess who's going to deny she's responsible for any of it and cast aspersions on anyone who tries to say she is--just as she did when Kathy Gifford was shot. Such behavior would not be entirely surprising from an immature, aspiring Hollywood star; it is disturbing from someone who makes any pretense of aspiring to a responsible position.

Posted by: Lisa Pelletier at June 08, 2011 12:26 PM (ixv5/)

You are kidding....right? If some idiot reporter hurts themselves falling over her dick to get to Palin....that is NOT on Palin or any other person the paparazzzzzzzi or press is after. Talk about her blaming others...you blaming her is really stupid.

200

Every law and regulation should have a sunset provision.  Every law and regulation should be traceable to either the US Constitution or the appropriate State Constitution.

Cut. Jib. Newsletter.

I wonder why none of the candidates are floating the simplest and best solution of them all: the flat tax.

This must be coupled with some sort of hard cap on spending. As we've seen, nothing seems capable of stopping the tax-and-spend progressives in Washington. They either cannot, or will not, recognize what our problems are with the outrageous amount of debt that Queen Nancy and Dingy Harry shoved up our asses, with Obama gleefully signing our national death certificate.

I'l love to stand outside the Capital building with a bullhorn and shout "Start cutting spending, right fucking now and don't give me any bullshit about it!"

Anybody got any bail money?

201 What misses the mark is the usual Beltway handwringing over revenue neutrality. Will tax cuts cause growth? Will tax increases reduce revenue? Such discussions are like arguing over whether a new refrigerator lasting years will be cheaper than repairing the old one that may last only two more, when your household already spends twice what it earns. Not an entirely irrelevant discussion, but it doesn't address matters of earning a bigger paycheck or cutting expenses. No possible growth scenario can eliminate a government and a electorate addicted to spending their kids' future paychecks. That said, this is a mighty good cup of DOOM I'm drinking right now. Heady and bold, with a frisson of insolvency.

202 Hey, there's a mock David Frum thread up.

As in mocking Frum, a mock thread, or a mock David Frum?

203

I wonder why none of the candidates are floating the simplest and best solution of them all: the flat tax.

it would NEVER fly.

I like it in principle, but you're never going to be able to convince those 50% of american not paying anything that all of the sudden they need to pay 15% of their yearly income to the government.

People won't vote for it.

I think T-Paw's two tier strategy is a compromise of that fact.

I'd be happy with a

Tier 1 - 25%

Tier 2 - 10%

Tier 3 - 2%    (everyone should pay something)

204 Warren Buffet is for the death tax because he makes a shitload of money buying the companies from survivors who have to pay the fucking tax. Oh and fuck him sideways with a pineapple.  He put his money into a trust so the Gubmint leaches won't get it when he takes his dirtnap  That is exactly correct, Hedgehog, although you spoil my fun. Once Jeff summons me, I may not be returned to his underwear until I have drawn blood. You will sacrifice one of your trolls to me. More fuckery: The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, where Buffet and the other asshole are sheltering their wealth, can earn income tax free. And can name whoever they designate as directors, who in addition to a healthy earned income, can direct the investing and spending of the trust however they see fit.

205 SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE: T-Paw's speech is going over *shockingly* well at Hot Air. 

206 Caught a perfect example in the video I would like to rant about.

His "Sell of the post office" was stupid speak.  Get 100% of postal workers in "my kids will starve and we will be homeless - Save our jobs!1!1!!" mode against you for something that has 0% of happening.

Typical conservative political stupidity.  Its one thing to pick fights on principle you have no chance of winning but Rickey Retarded to pick fights you would definitely lose that will organize and motivate your enemies, when you have no real intention of actually fighting.

Today every email address of (according to wiki) 596,000 postal employees will be flooded with a link quoting him saying.. "sell off the post office."  Any known conservative coworkers will get hundreds and wont be able to get a word wise about anything in the lunchroom or water-cooler.  

Smarten the hell up conservatives your the only team we've got maybe stop scoring points for the other team?

207 If you can't figure out how to avoid the estate tax, you deserve your fate. Are most people too cheap to spend the $1,500 bucks?

I know, right? Rich people are so stupid! Probably because they have been coddled by their butlers and sassy black maids all their lives. Idiots.

208 @197 I forgot, what are the details on the gift tax?

The rules change year-by-year, but the general form is: Any individual can give some set amount of money (around $12k) tax free to any other individual per year. But the money still counts towards limits in the Death Tax.

That is: Married couple giving money to two kids. Mom gives Amy $12k and Sally $12k every year, Dad does the same. But there's some (changing) threshold of 'lifetime giving'.

209 Sarah you had your 15 minutes of hate-filled fame. You and the rest of your family and friends are quickly becoming a punch line for everyone else in this country with half a brain in their head. Have fun failing in the polls. You can't hide behind your fat little kids forever. Everyone knows that the tea party's starting to lose its flavor... O-B-A-M-A

210

(Muttering) See if I set you up that inter vivos trust....

My fortune (hopefully) is in a place where moth and rust cannot touch it.  More importantly, it is in a place where not even the long-arm of the IRS and the SWAT teams of the DoE can steal it away from me. 

211 I like it in principle, but you're never going to be able to convince those 50% of american not paying anything that all of the sudden they need to pay 15% of their yearly income to the government.

Make it 15% of income above the "poverty line".  You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.  Even God only wants his 10% from the "increase", not the base level.

The trick is to make it somehow painful to the government to raise the poverty line.

212 Today every email address of (according to wiki) 596,000 postal employees will be flooded with a link quoting him saying.. "sell off the post office."  Any known conservative coworkers will get hundreds and wont be able to get a word wise about anything in the lunchroom or water-cooler.  

Smarten the hell up conservatives your the only team we've got maybe stop scoring points for the other team?

So real conservatives should wet their pants every time a public sector union makes noise?

213 I am still not on the Pawlenty band wagon. I have not got one ioda of trust in him actually being who he states he wants to be as president. He strikes me as the Hope and Change guy we deal with now who has provided nuttin new under the sun except record debt and raging unemployment while pretending to be president.

214

I am not totally against the death tax with the following stipulations.

1. Firts $10 Million tax exempt

2. $10 Million to $1 Billion 35%

3. $1 Billion and above 40%

4. 10 year interest free government loan on any tax owed.

5. All receipts from the death tax go to pay down the debt with an equal deduction to the debt ceiling.

The way I see it the dead guy made his money while we were running up this disasterous debt and it's time to pay it back instead of making the middle class kids pay it. It has to be paid.

Plus most trust funders that I have seen turn out to be snobbish liberal pricks anyways.

The 10 year interest free loan gives any real family business time to arrange to pay it off.

Flame away!

215

I am a fair tax supporter

but would settle unhappily for a flat tax zero loopholes.

I despise the concept of tax credits that give someone more money than they paid in

death tax is just a way to keep people from accumulating wealth(except for those that already have it)

216 212 Sarah you had your 15 minutes of hate-filled fame. You and the rest of your family and friends are quickly becoming a punch line for everyone else in this country with half a brain in their head. Have fun failing in the polls. You can't hide behind your fat little kids forever. Everyone knows that the tea party's starting to lose its flavor... O-B-A-M-A

Posted by: Lisa Pelletier at June 08, 2011 12:39 PM (ixv5/)

 

can I punch you with my weeenie?

217 About Palin,  if you want to understand why her fans are fed up with being mocked and dismissed.  Read John Hawkins peace in pajamas media from july 09

http://tinyurl.com/3lcmgfl

218 Posted by: Lisa Pelletier at June 08, 2011 12:39 PM (ixv5/)

You couldn't get my name right and they're the stupid ones?  Grow some self-awareness, you moron.

219 Everyone knows that the tea party's starting to lose its flavor...

Nothing for you to worry about then.

220 Posted by: Jeff B. at June 08, 2011 12:37 PM (hIWe1)

And here as well.

I'm not on the bandwagon yet but if  it turns out Christie and Ryan aren't lying to me (and I don't really think they are)...I've got my seat reserved.

I'm actually looking forward to Monday night's "debate" to see how he and Mitt deal with each other.

221 I'm actually looking forward to Monday night's "debate" to see how he and Mitt deal with each other.

Posted by: DrewM. at June 08, 2011 12:44 PM (plesI)

And wouldn't it be nice to actually have a debate instead of directed  talking points with intermitant timer bell?

222

People won't vote for it.

A valid point, but I don't recall voting for our current tax structure.

223 I'm actually skeptical, because right now I guess I'm in an anti-deficit frame of mind more than a pro-growth one. I realize the objection to that is "pro-growth is anti-deficit," and I buy into that to some extent, but I am worried about the revenue side of things too. I imagine T-Paw's plan is more of a reform than a cut As am I. Skeptical that is. I know candidates don't exactly have the CBO at their disposal, but really, you've got to have some kind of data to back yourself up. I am as firmly in the "lower taxes = economic growth" camp as anyone, but I just don't buy that the general public is in the mood for anything that even smells like increasing the deficit. So quantify how much additional revenue we gain by closing loopholes. Quantify the additional revenue to be gained by repatriating off-shore revenue. Quantify the amount of increased revenues as a result of economic growth and show that these proposals are deficit neutral. And if the numbers that work are 12% and 26%, don't be afraid of non-round numbers. It might actually give your argument some credibility. Maybe picking non-obvious numbers might suggest you didn't just make them up out of thin air.

224 Palin people tone it down a bit your nerves are understandably raw but not everything is about you.  Anti-Palinites, we need them the palin peeps.  They are our allies they vote for our people all the time and usually without a peep.  The left is the enemy stop getting your jollies smacking around the red headed step child that everyone in the class bullies it only makes you look like a herd of jackasses.

225 I'd be happy with a Tier 1 - 25% Tier 2 - 10% Tier 3 - 2% (everyone should pay something) Sadly, that tier 3 wouldn't sell either.

226 Posted by: giftogab at June 08, 2011 12:45 PM (SPVfc)

It would also be nice if clowns like Ron Paul and Gary Johnson weren't going to be there.

I could also do without Cain and Santorum but it is what it is.

227 The other counter-argument to Obama simply adopting his opponents ideas is the obvious question: "Uh, Mr. President, you've had 3+ years to do that, why are you only suggesting it now and didn't do it 2 years ago ?" It works when you are trying to get ELECTED, not so much when you are trying to get RE-elected

228 I'm actually skeptical, because right now I guess I'm in an anti-deficit frame of mind more than a pro-growth one. I realize the objection to that is "pro-growth is anti-deficit," and I buy into that to some extent Around 600B of the current annual deficit is due to the economic slump and how our tax code is structured (tax collection plummets much more than the economy).

229 I could also do without Cain and Santorum but it is what it is.

Posted by: DrewM. at June 08, 2011 12:50 PM (plesI)

I would like to hear more from Cain and Santorum....Paul is a waste of time, but even the lesser candidates may offer somthing that gets rolled in to the bigger picture eventually. We do need some ideas and some perspective that isn't just what we have heard over and over. We should have started this process as a party the day after we lost to Honeyberry.

230 24 People below $50k should not get off the hook.  Damnit, that's who vote for liberals.  They must put skin in the game; at the very least tax them at 5%.

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at June 08, 2011 11:42 AM (MPtFW)

This.

231

What many miss is that we no longer talk about the MORALITY of how we tax...

I believe the MORAL arguement could be pitched to the American people, and they would respond...

ie... is it right that those who do not support the State, get the benefits of the State? is it 'right' that some pay more taxes than others, because of personal choices?  Is it 'right' that those who use MORE Government resources (child deduction) pay LESS in taxes?

Which is why I'm in favor of a National Sales Tax to replace both business AND personal income tax... with no deductions.

On the business side? Our EXORTS would skyrocket, as our exports would not have any tax burden (jobs folks)... IMPORTS would be taxed at the same rate at things built here... and the whole industry of buisness Tax folks and IRS would go away.

Personal side? Those who bought more, would pay more... and all would be taxed at the same rate... making it a MORAL tax where eacy citizen pulled their weight.

AND, it would get the Government out of trying to dictate our actions through the Tax code.... leaving us MORE Free.

And as almost everyplace in the Union already has Sales Tax (infrastructure in place), it would be very easy and Cheap (in comparison to the IRS) to implement.

232 The way I see it the dead guy made his money while we were running up this disasterous debt and it's time to pay it back instead of making the middle class kids pay it. Pay it back to who? You? You didn't loan him any fucking money. Banks did. Investors did. They got PAID BACK via interest and/or equity stakes. Pay back the government for their sooper awsum regulatory "protection?". They got PAID BACK via taxes. IT'S NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY. Take all that wealth-envy energy and direct it towards accumulating some wealth. Then you'd change your fucking tune.

233 "Uh, Mr. President, you've had 3+ years to do that, why are you only suggesting it now and didn't do it 2 years ago  before your opposition thunk it up for you?

FIFY

234

Posted by: Empire of Jeff's Penis at June 08, 2011 12:54 PM (lbo6/)

I like the little ditty that goes like this:

Parent: "Hey, I am proud of you for working hard to get that A. But Johhny down the street is so sad because he is going to get an F. So lets work together hear so its fair for everyone and we will just give you and him both C's.

Kid: "Are you effing crazy? I am the one who spent time in the library, wrote the homework, studied, missed having fun so I could get that A. I am not giving it away to that dumb kid who partied, skipped class and made trouble! That is NOT fair for me to do the work and him to get the benefit!"

Teach kids this from day one and redistribution comes into focus for them.

235 IT'S NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY.

Take all that wealth-envy energy and direct it towards accumulating some wealth. Then you'd change your fucking tune.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff's Penis at June 08, 2011 12:54 PM (lbo6/)

You're wrong on a couple of levels, Whether intended or not the government loaned/gave us all $14 Trillion so far. We did nothing until recently to either stop running up the debt or start paying it. We just let it ride, all through the Bush years and before.

There is no plan now to pay it off. At most all of the plans including Pawlenty's just try to stop it from growing.

If you don't like it tell us all your plan on how you would pay it off.

Oh and by the way, I have been working my entire life to create and accumulate wealth. Thanks for the gratuitous cheap shot though.

236 IT'S NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY.

That should be a bumper sticker.

237 Posted by: mpfs at June 08, 2011 12:02 PM (iYbLN)

funny a relative made an error on the tax form, apparently a common error.  They found the error and then went back as far as they could to keep  finding the error.  He owed more than he could pay in a lump sum.  they refused to do a "payment plan" and threatened to "take the house" but they politely suggested "why don't you refinance your house and give the money to us".  So that's what he did.  He had no mortgage and he basically now has a mortgage bu the IRS was paid.  The bank literally held the check for them, he never even saw the money.

238

The way I see it the dead guy made his money while we were running up this disasterous debt and it's time to pay it back instead of making the middle class kids pay it. It has to be paid.

Plus most trust funders that I have seen turn out to be snobbish liberal pricks anyways.

The middle class kids are more responsible for the debt than the rich kids, since the dead rich guy paid vastly more in taxes during his life than the dead middle class guy. My money isn't yours to share fuckface. You, a typical leech, simply assume that people that have more than you owe you something. Because of fairness and social justice and it wasn't your fault and that goddamn Tad Witherspoon fucked your girlfriend when she went away to college.

How about this for a plan. Get off your fat ass and start pulling your weight. Stop showing up at funerals with your greasy hand out. You could double the estate tax and it wouldn't make a goddamn bit of difference - the government is running a $125 billion/month deficit. Robbing people a second time around is not going to fix that gaping hole.

239 Ron Paul actually came in ahead of T-Paw on that PPP poll I posted this morning. Cain in ahead of both.

240 Barney is America's Osama Bin Laden.

241

Kid: "Are you effing crazy? I am the one who spent time in the library, wrote the homework, studied, missed having fun so I could get that A. I am not giving it away to that dumb kid who partied, skipped class and made trouble! That is NOT fair for me to do the work and him to get the benefit!"

Teach kids this from day one and redistribution comes into focus for them.

Posted by: giftogab at June 08, 2011 01:00 PM (SPVfc)

Nice try but tell me again what the kid getting a check for $1 Billion from his dad's death did to earn that again. I missed that in your explanation. Did he make sure he kept his porsche clean or what. I would like to know what he did other than being a lucky sperm. I know handing him a check for $600,000 million instead of $1 Billion is going to be a great hard ship for him and if he somehow helped create the weatlh why didn't he pay taxes on it already and why isn't it his wealth instead of his dads?

242 Several of the sibs of my friends have gotten jobs paying between $25 and $55 grand a year.  They literally cannot live.   The government takes like 7 grand off the top before they electronically deposit your check.  You can barely live in a studio with a couple of other people so you can walk to your job.  It's horrible and they all thought they would get refunds and, they didn't.  One had to give 6 bucks extra to NYS.  So parents are buying apartments or else the kid has to live at home.  You hear this and then they say "but I'm so thankful I got a job" and recently the student loans have kicked in and that is like another tax the interest is bordering on criminal.

243 Whether intended or not the government loaned/gave us all $14 Trillion so far. Dead Fucking Wrong. The government can't "give" us or "loan" us money because it has no money. All bonds are is an obligation against future tax receipts. ALL MONEY COMES FROM THE TAXPAYER. We did nothing until recently to either stop running up the debt or start paying it. We just let it ride, all through the Bush years and before. Who the fuck is "we?" I was not a party to the contract between the govt and GM to take my money and give it to them. Or to Lehman Brothers. But they obligated me to repay those "loans" of MY money, anyway. And I'm so glad of your ambition and civic pride. Send the treasury a check if you're not doing your part. They will cash that motherfucker in a heartbeat. Keep your hands off MY stack.

244

Posted by: gene berman at June 08, 2011 01:10 PM (4ekwG)

Wow. Well said. I especially like the profit/loss as economic signals of utility argument, which even liberals should be able to grasp. Possibly with the help of a comic book, or something.

245

How about this for a plan. Get off your fat ass and start pulling your weight. Stop showing up at funerals with your greasy hand out. You could double the estate tax and it wouldn't make a goddamn bit of difference - the government is running a $125 billion/month deficit. Robbing people a second time around is not going to fix that gaping hole.

Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at June 08, 2011 01:07 PM (+lsX1)

Ok fuckface I am ready to hear your plan. I know your are a fucking internet genius. Let's hear how you are going to fix it?

That's the problem with internet geniuses, they have a bunch of outrage and no fucking plan, 0.

The debt isn't going away through the magic of the interwebs, the younger you are the more you are going to owe. Just tell me what you would do and where you would cut.

246 Who the fuck is "we?"

I was not a party to the contract between the govt and GM to take my money and give it to them. Or to Lehman Brothers. But they obligated me to repay those "loans" of MY money, anyway.

And I'm so glad of your ambition and civic pride. Send the treasury a check if you're not doing your part. They will cash that motherfucker in a heartbeat.

Keep your hands off MY stack.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff's Penis at June 08, 2011 01:13 PM (lbo6/)

Really? did you vote for Bush? Because he did both of those things. That's the way it works here, you vote for a guy and trust him to make those decisions for you.

As I remember though Lehman Brothers did not get a bailout and went out of business but why let facts get in the way of rightous outrage.

247

As I remember though Lehman Brothers did not get a bailout and went out of business but why let facts get in the way of rightous outrage.

Posted by: robtr at June 08, 2011 01:18 PM (MtwBb)

Lehman brothers 'assets' were bought off, at pennies to the dollar, by other banks... they did not really go aways so much as changed names on the door...

The real losers were the Lehman stock holders... as they did not really liquidate the company assets to make the whole... just like I got really burned in the United Airlines debacle a few years back... note, they still fly, I lost everything I had invested in their stock...

248 Outrage? That's pretty fucking rich, coming from you after the pissy, envious screed about the rich kid not "earning" his inheritance. That's the point, jeenyus: His dad earned it. It's HIS money to do with as he sees fit. If he wants to give it to his kid, how is that any of your fucking business. You know what, I don't want you spending your money on hamburgers, movies, basketball games or cigarettes. Because I don't like those things and I don't like you. And because I don't like you, I think 55% of your money should be taken from you. Right now. That's your argument: I want to punish the people I am jealous of. I don't have the ability to earn that kind of jack, and I'm the awesomest dude what ever writ a comment on the internet. So if I can't earn that kind of money, and THEY can, then THEY must be bad, undeserving people. Fuck. OFF.

249 Ok fuckface I am ready to hear your plan. I know your are a fucking internet genius. Let's hear how you are going to fix it?

Hey dickweed, your "plan" doesn't come anywhere close to ending the deficit, let alone paying off the debt. My plan, since you asked, is to gather all of what you think are good ideas and then do the complete opposite. Even people as stupid as you can serve a purpose.

250

At this point, the current progressive tax code is so broken any modification or 'reforms' will only make things worse. Part of the problem has to do with complexity of the tax code and the number of loop-holes that exist.

 

Implement a Fair-Tax and exempt the first $25K for single-income and $50K for Joint. Eliminate Corporate taxes because the VAT that's included in the Fair Tax will pick up the slack there but keep it really small to not crush big-ticket stuff.

 

251 252 I'm glad you put Lehman Bros situation so succinctly.
I would write a book to explain who and when but I have a real job.
We're still being looted and so many things Bush was lionized for at the time are turning out to be Trojan Horses.

252 That's your argument: I want to punish the people I am jealous of. I don't have the ability to earn that kind of jack, and I'm the awesomest dude what ever writ a comment on the internet.

So if I can't earn that kind of money, and THEY can, then THEY must be bad, undeserving people.

Fuck. OFF.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff's Penis at June 08, 2011 01:27 PM (lbo6/)

Like I said, you don't have a fucking plan. You like most comedians are not serious. You somehow believe your interweb tough guy shit is going to fix it. You can't even get what little facts you know straight.

You are good at making rape jokes though so there's that.

Hey dickweed, your "plan" doesn't come anywhere close to ending the deficit, let alone paying off the debt. My plan, since you asked, is to gather all of what you think are good ideas and then do the complete opposite. Even people as stupid as you can serve a purpose.

Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at June 08, 2011 01:29 PM (+lsX1)

See above without the compliments for at least being a comedian.

253

Implement a Fair-Tax and exempt the first $25K for single-income and $50K for Joint. Eliminate Corporate taxes because the VAT that's included in the Fair Tax will pick up the slack there but keep it really small to not crush big-ticket stuff.

 

Close, but everyone - and I mean everyone - should pay some tax, and it should scale with overall tax rate. No one should get an entirely free ride. That's one factor that has gotten us to where we are now.

The alternative is to tie paying taxes (or serving in the military) with voting. No skin in the game, in cash or in kind? You stay home on election day.

As a practical matter, tieing taxes to voting would never fly politically, and so ... everyone must pay something.

254 robr,
"Nice try but tell me again what the kid getting a check for $1 Billion from his dad's death did to earn that again."

When you get to billionaires, you aren't collecting all that much in "Death Tax". They also aren't getting "Billion dollar checks" but that's more of an implementation detail.

There's a reason they're called "Trust Fund Babies". Writing the laws tightly enough to prevent this is quite difficult without making churches, community centers, and "legitimate" charitable concerns squeal.

Even the brute-force "Make a for-profit corp that owns all the family capital (houses, boats, cars, etc.) and pays the family top dollar as employees while writing a hell of a lot of utilities off as business expenses" moves the whole thing from "Death Tax Rates" to "Income Tax rates".

255 A valid point, but I don't recall voting for our current tax structure. Posted by: BackwardsBoy at June 08, 2011 12:46 PM (d0Tfm) Just as well. I'm guessing they could round up a fair number of the 0% net tax bracket (what was it, like 42% of the country?) to vote against change.

256

Jan Schakowsky has a tax plan to raise the rates on millionaires and billionaires for income to 48%.  This is essentially a plan to put the US ecnonomy back into a great depression.

 

These fuckers want to intentionally crush the circulation of money.  They want more Wagner Act bullshit.  they want more power with the NRLB.  They want to fucking turn the United States into shit.

Hell no.

257

Oh and by the way. The current death tax is 35% above $5 Million and scheduled to go to 45% above $5 Million at the end of next year. I guess we could just leave it that.

I am done arguing with the interweb smart guys without any plan. I feel like Paul Ryan arguing against the democrats on medicare.

It's a losing argument because you are arguing against nothing. So you guys figure it out.

I have a good accountant, I will just continue to pay as little as possible.

258

>> There will be a large portion of the 19,000 workers with fat benefit plans and pensions that may not like your solution.  Just sayin'.

 

fuck em

259 Oh, so now I have to produce a plan to cut spending to justify keeping my wealth? That's easy - if there were less people to consume services, there would be less need for spending. You and everyone who thinks like you die first. That's 50% savings right there. Oh, and LOVE the bitchy "Internet Tough Guy" remarks. Keep telling yourself you're better than me, Pointdexter. It'll justify your greed to confiscate that which doesn't belong to you. Hope you're enjoying the flaming you asked for, fuckbag.

260

Just as well. I'm guessing they could round up a fair number of the 0% net tax bracket (what was it, like 42% of the country?) to vote against change.

Maybe, but many of the 42% are cognitively challenged (or cognitively stomped, fucked, and left for dead), so the arcane details of tax policy are likely to blow right past them and stick in the wall, especially if suitably sugar-coated (say, with a one-time offsetting payment of $500, or some such).

261

I have a good accountant, I will just continue to pay as little as possible.

We have to do more than just carve out our own.  The tax system must change.  It must change from the centrally planned, concentrated power approach that is set up for right now.  The Democrats are doubling down on doom.  They want to contract the money supply even further.  They want the NRLB to control private investment.

This is FDR on steroids.  These fuckers have to go.

I've already converted my FDR diehard grandfather.  He thought FDR saved the world.  Never voted for Rs ever until 2010.  Now he knows FDR was better at walking than he was at centrally fucking the economy.

262 Do some math, Ace: the only anti-deficit plan is high growth. There is no other way to fund our lifestyles as we grow old and grey and become full-time consumers.

263 Soona, Barack does not believe we must pay for what we spend. Saying that the rich should not have a part of their income exempt from taxes is far from Barack's claim that they should pay most of their money to the government.

264 I saw this in real time.  You may want to watch this.

265

Posted by: robtr at June 08, 2011 01:10 PM (MtwBb)

 

Fuck. Off. You didn't put in on this.

266 Sub paragraph g: Any body who voted for Obama will remain at the present tax rate because paying higher taxes is patriotic.

267 Oh, and the only justification for the "death tax" (beyond punishing the wicked rich) is that it captures taxes on unrealized gains on the date of death; but to the extent that an estate is made up of already-realized gains, the estate tax is double taxation, and by demanding tax payments when no cash transaction has taken place, the estate tax causes huge cash flow problems for poorly planned estates.

Even life insurance proceeds are subject to estate tax if not owned by a trust properly set up by attorneys.

We could eliminate the estate tax and still make sure no inherited unrealized gain avoids taxation, by implementing a carryover-of-basis rule for income tax purposes (easy to implement with modern accounting tech).

The estate tax is ethically vile and full of traps for the unwary.

268 You can't pay off this debt OR even close the deficit with spending cuts alone.  Growth has to be a big part of it.

We can rave all we want about things we'd like to cut and should be cut, but a lot of that stuff wouldn't get cut even with a Republican President, House, and filibuster-proof Senate.  Just wouldn't happen. 

There is no "debt plan" without growth, PERIOD. 

269 Re: my earlier comments about the Post Office Rush just confirmed, there's rubber rooms with 1100 non-active employees in the USPS. The leftists are just farming voters and dues contributions. dirty spending secrets dot com

270 I like that, I am going to steal that and sell bumperstickers, "it's not your money, moocher." anyway, when will *they* give back? I think that these people on public assistance should get up every weekend and mow my lawn. Also, they should be forced to get out of line at the supermarket to use their government food stamps. I am, after all, paying for their food.

271 Actually, Vic, if you go back and read congressional testimony at the time, Congress knew damn well that the 14th would apply to the 2nd as they openly debated about the prospects of freed slaves now owning weapons. The entire bill of rights applies both to the federal government AND all the states.

272 1) Hauser's law. Tax rates are as much a brake on the economy as they are anything else, and so a relatively high tax rate doesn't gain much in the short term but costs a LOT in the long term.

Correspondingly, a relatively low tax rate (particularly on investment and business) loses little in the short run but gains much in the long run.

Consider regulations a tax and you quickly realize how we got into THIS FUCKING HOLE!

Only one way out of the hole, people, and it's not digging.

2) Estate taxes - pure redistribution. You may think it's not fair for rich people to pass on their wealth to their children, I don't think it's any of the government's fucking business. If you want to tax income, you tax income. If you want to tax wealth, you tax wealth. If you want to destroy family businesses, you tax estates.

3) Cain & 2nd Amendment. For people who don't "get" incorporation, one of the examples given in the debate, repeatedly, regarding its adoption (and of the Civil Rights Act of 1866) was the keeping and bearing of arms. It was obvious at the time that the 2nd was, in fact, incorporated.

That's why we keep having to go to court on these issues, over and over.

Unfortunately, when there are lawyers involved, nothing is ever settled, so basically they ignored anything they didn't want, and to this day law schools and textbooks ignore a substantial percentage of the intent of lawmakers, especially in the 19th century.

"Textualism" is one of the tools they use to rewrite the law whenever they Goddamn like, and unfortunately it's Scalia's greatest vice, IMHO. People don't usually notice it because his opinions are not that far from historical opinions, but it leads to a pretty shabby mode of thinking sometimes.

In short, lawyers will never stop lying and trying to screw you, get used to it. The behavior of lawyers with regard to the Bill of Rights makes this utterly clear. We have to fight every damned day, there is no rest, there is no victory but for today.

273 "Sarah you had your 15 minutes of hate-filled fame. You and the rest of your family and friends are quickly becoming a punch line for everyone else in this country with half a brain in their head. Have fun failing in the polls. You can't hide behind your fat little kids forever. Everyone knows that the tea party's starting to lose its flavor... O-B-A-M-A

Posted by: Lisa Pelletier at June 08, 2011 12:39 PM (ixv5/) "

 

Hahaha.  Hey Cunt, when you get done tongue-punching Barak's fart box, don't forget to send Sarah a small bill for the space she's renting in your head.  I'd say either charge by the % of the space pwned, or just use the biggest number you can count to.  If you use the actual square footage, the postage to send it will cost more as that's not exactly a large apartment you've got up there.  LOL. 

 

274 "

I have a good accountant, I will just continue to pay as little as possible.

Posted by: robtr at June 08, 2011 01:49 PM (MtwBb) "

 

 

You need an accountant to fill out your 1040EZ? 

You know - if you work out a deal to get your posts sponsored by Massengill, you might actually NEED an accountant.  You should contact them immediately.  This is one of those rare GOLDEN 'fits' in the marketing world.

275 The entire bill of rights applies both to the federal government AND all the states.

Actually the courts really didn't get into the incorporation buisness until much much later. Mostly in the 60s.

276 It was obvious at the time that the 2nd was, in fact, incorporated.

As I just posted it must not have been that obvious since the 2nd wasn't incorporated until recently.

277 And Scalia proved himself NOT to be a textualist when he upheld the government in the CA medical marijuana laws.

278 Oh, and LOVE the bitchy "Internet Tough Guy" remarks. Keep telling yourself you're better than me, Pointdexter. It'll justify your greed to confiscate that which doesn't belong to you.

Hope you're enjoying the flaming you asked for, fuckbag.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 08, 2011 01:52 PM (lbo6/)

heh, here is Empire of cocksuckings tax policy.

If I want to give you my money to work for me Empire is fine if you pay taxes on it.

If I want to give you my money to sit on you ass and do nothing you shouldn't pay tax on it.

Interesting concept, just like welfare. Punish the workers but give the ass sitters a free ride on taxes.

That's conservative in whose book again? It wasn't Reagans.

Reagan set the minimun estate tax in 1984 to 55% with a $2 Million exemption.

Maybe it was Bush?

WTF Bush was an estate taxer too??  yup anything over $1.5 Million was taxed at 48% under Bush.

By the time Bush left office the exemption was increased to $2 Million and the rate reduced to 45%

But you fucking geniuses go right ahead and knock my plan because collecting money for sitting on you ass is conservative.

I just can't find any conservative presidents that agree with you slackers.

Facts suck don't they?

Nope

 

279 Interesting concept, just like welfare. Punish the workers but give the ass sitters a free ride on taxes.

You are missing the whole point of EoJ's rant:  it is not your or the public's money.  It is a private citizen's property to do with as he pleases, including giving it to his heirs without the government stepping with both hands to take nearly half of it.

So what if a wealthy person dies with a billion dollar estate and wants to give it away to his inheritors?  It's his money.

What are you not getting?

280 You are missing the whole point of EoJ's rant:  it is not your or the public's money.  It is a private citizen's property to do with as he pleases, including giving it to his heirs without the government stepping with both hands to take nearly half of it.

So what if a wealthy person dies with a billion dollar estate and wants to give it away to his inheritors?  It's his money.

What are you not getting?

Posted by: EC at June 08, 2011 03:43 PM (GQ8sn)

It's my money if I want to hire you to cut my lawn or wash my car too. Why should you pay tax on that if you don't pay tax if I decide instead to just give you my money?

I don't understand how giving you my money to work=ok to tax. Giving you my money to do nothing=free ride on taxes.

It's my money either way isn't it?

281 It's my money if I want to hire you to cut my lawn or wash my car too. Why should you pay tax on that if you don't pay tax if I decide instead to just give you my money?

Am I your heir to your life assets or am I a stranger with no blood connection?

282 Am I your heir to your life assets or am I a stranger with no blood connection?

Posted by: EC at June 08, 2011 03:51 PM (GQ8sn)

I got news for you. The Estate tax isn't dependent on whether you are a stranger or not. You can leave your money to stranger, friends, relatives it doen't matter.

283 Vic, I think we're both saying the 2nd was incorporated by the 14th as was clear from congressional testimony at the time. Whether or not the courts or anyone else for that matter enforced it or not is another issue.

284

I do think I have found you guys that are against the Estate Tax someone to vote for in 2012. He seems to think just like you.

Barack Obama, He signed the lowest Estate Tax in at least the last 30 years. Much lower than Reagan and quite a bit lower than Bush.

Unlike Bush or Reagan Obama signed an estate tax bill that is only 35% and that is with a whopping $ 5 Million exemption.

You guys need to get your Obama 2012 bumper stickers on your cars.

285

Vote Obama 2012, it's for the lucky sperms!

and it's apparently the conservative thing to do.

Do you fuckers always beclown yourselves this bad?

286 "and quite a bit lower than Bush."

This is actually false.

The much reviled Bush Tax Cuts phased in a -zero- Estate Tax.

Obama's reenactment of the Bush Tax Cuts wasn't ... complete.

287 Frankly, anyone who thinks it's "fair" to take the dead guy's money from his chosen heirs is not a conservative, and had better never claim to be.

288

Beclown ourselves?  We're not the one consistently missing the point.  That would be you.  Your baggie is out of vinegar and you're left to harping on the same old sorry and false dichotomy:  That somehow it matters how Preznit A, B, C or D decided to rape the dead.  It doesn't.  We don't have to agree with any of them, much less the ones that have (R)'s next to their name.  (Confusing to people like you, I know...)  It is wrong no matter who does it.  So get your fucking manicured hands out of my wallet Sally, or blame your own avarice and greed when you pull back a stump.  Pretty simple concept for most sentinent creatures.  But then, you aren't exactly sentinent are you?  Pre-programmed robots don't qualify for that distinction.  That said, we'll be sure and log your opinion just so we have it if we ever get curious about what those who have no prayer of ever having to worry about paying an estate tax might think about the issue. 

P.S.  - how's my ass taste now?  Thanks for the shine job.  You do have at least one talent. 

289 >>>People below $50k should not get off the hook.

I kind of think this too, but right now they're not paying anything, so what, we raise taxes on the poorest Americans?

This is false. Assume a single male, no kids or other dependents, $29350 in income. The standard deduction is $9350, making his taxable income $20K. The tax on 20K is $2585.00. That's on top of the payroll taxes and state income taxes.

And, of course, the payroll taxes get pumped straight into the general fund. For younger people, chances are they will get screwed out of SS and Medicare, so those payroll taxes are really just disguised income taxes.

This meme that people under 50K don't pay taxes is just fantasy.

290 This is actually false.

The much reviled Bush Tax Cuts phased in a -zero- Estate Tax.

Obama's reenactment of the Bush Tax Cuts wasn't ... complete.

Posted by: Al at June 08, 2011 04:21 PM (MzQOZ)

For one year dumbass. Then it expired and the rate automatically went up to 55%. Can you fucksticks even use bing or google.

P.S.  - how's my ass taste now?  Thanks for the shine job.  You do have at least one talent. 

Posted by: Abiss at June 08, 2011 05:18 PM (vhJZ7)

Jesus what a dumb insulting fuck. Obama is your guy. You just said so. Do you have anything of value to contribute? Any facts? Who is your candidate with a 0% estate tax?

Barack Obama is the closest to your perfect president. He's all about giving free money to people who don't work for it and taxing the shit out of the ones that do.

That's your plan right?

I have paid more in taxes some years than I am sure you have ever made. I ran my own company and employed 175 people. I have worked as VP of construction for some of the biggest Apartment builders in this fucking country so fuck you and you jr. high insults.

Enjoy your inheritance you worthless fuck. I am sure inheriting money is the only thing you know how to do.

 

 

 

291

Raping the dead? What a dumb fucking idiot. Let me take you from your fantasy world and take you into the free world.

Here's a news flash. The dead don't pay taxes, whoever they give their money too might pay some but with a huge exemption. When you die bury your money with you, guess what? No tax.

Tell me something, when your alive and you want a new house and you give someone $1 million in profit to build you a new house. They get taxed right? How is that fair, you already paid tax on that money right? Why should the guy working his ass off pay tax on that money again?

In your world when you die though you can give some worthless prick like yourself $100 Million and no tax right?

Welfare is grand isn't it?

292

Here is the New 0 Estate taxer T Paw's record on estate taxes. These figures are after George Bush's Estate tax already nailed you. He sure was different like when he had to actually sign bills and stuff than he is now wasn't he?

Maybe he's lying now, maybe not. I don't think we will get a chance to find out though.

High Federal Tax Rate

High Minnesota Tax Rate

Low Minnesota Tax Rate

2002

50%

37%

11%

2003

49%

37%

11%

2004

48%

39%

10%

2005

47%

39%

12%

2006

46%

41%

10%

2007

45%

41%

10%

2008

45%

41%

10%

2009

45%

41%

9%

2010

35%

 41%  9% 2011 and later

35%
41%

N/A

Large estate percentages go higher

293

"Jesus what a dumb insulting fuck. Obama is your guy. You just said so. Do you have anything of value to contribute? Any facts? Who is your candidate with a 0% estate tax? "

 

Poor robtr, no one here said any such thing.  If you wish to argue with yourself, you needn't employ a public forum to do so. 

 

"Barack Obama is the closest to your perfect president. He's all about giving free money to people who don't work for it and taxing the shit out of the ones that do.  That's your plan right?"

 

Conversing with others actually requires that you address the things they ACTUALLY say - not the things you WISH they'd said.  But then, you won't win many of those arguments, will you?  (Hell, I'm pretty sure you're losing to 'yourself' if I'm tracking your internal conversation right.) 

 

"I have paid more in taxes some years than I am sure you have ever made. I ran my own company and employed 175 people. I have worked as VP of construction for some of the biggest Apartment builders in this fucking country so fuck you and you jr. high insults.  Enjoy your inheritance you worthless fuck. I am sure inheriting money is the only thing you know how to do."

 

Uh huh.  I'm sure.  No matter.  I admire your obviously rich fantasy life.  I'm sure it provided hours of relief those many hours spent cleaning toilets in the break room and messy spills on aisle 6.   Complete with conversations that never happened, with people you never knew, jobs you never had, and women you never had sex with - why, its ALMOST as good as the real thing as far as you know.  You keep trying though cowboy - who knows?  We live in world where the inept, talentless and stupid become amazingly successful everyday.  Hell, you may even master the art of conversing with others - real people I mean - some day.  I can tell you're close.  If you can do that, you can do anything, and that dream job might be right around the corner.  Dream big Forrest, dream big!

 

294 meh the formatting didin't work out. Anyway the Minnisota Estate Tax under Pawlenty was 41% after you paid the 45% under Bush.

295

@296

You've got yourself on the ropes robtr.  One of you is very inconsistent however, and the other needs to learn how use "fucking bing."  Get him tiger.

296   I can tell you're close.  If you can do that, you can do anything, and that dream job might be right around the corner.  Dream big Forrest, dream big!

 

Posted by: Abiss at June 08, 2011 06:38 PM (vhJZ7)

Look, I understand you want to get free money from daddy and mommy so you can continue to insult people you don't know on the internet. That's your only contribution to society.

heh, I really hope it works out for you I really do because someone as dumb as you will either get daddy to support him or end up on welfare. Provided your daddy was able to do something with his life other than have some blood sucking spawn. I assume with how you turned out he probably inherited what ever he's been living off of as well.

I would rather he keep you in cheetos though than make the rest of us do it.

So more power to you. I hope your are successful. I am not betting on you though.

 

297 @299 - Yah?  Was it the knock punch you were hoping for?  You haven't responded to it yet.  Fingers crossed!

298

@301

Nicely played.  That out to finish him for good.  I doubt you'll be hearing from HIM anymore! 

299

Nicely played.  That out to finish him for good.  I doubt you'll be hearing from HIM anymore! 

Posted by: Abiss at June 08, 2011 06:59 PM (vhJZ7)

Seems like it did. Unless I am supposed to make some sense out your latest drivel.

300 I'm not sure how you could to be honest.  You still haven't tipped to the fact that you're arguing with yourself.  Shhhhh...though...lets not tell you.  Its fun watching you go round and round with yourself. 

301  I'm not sure how you could to be honest.  You still haven't tipped to the fact that you're arguing with yourself.  Shhhhh...though...lets not tell you.  Its fun watching you go round and round with yourself. 

Posted by: Abiss at June 08, 2011 07:04 PM (vhJZ7)

Let me try one more time for the retarded among us. I would rather see a tax break for people who work for their money instead of the ones who don't.

Do you understand that? I know it may affect your lifestyle but that's just where I stand.

302

I DO understand that.  Where we differ is that don't pro forma accept the premise that the Washington bureaucrat has any claim to MY money at all.  For any reason.  Which is YOUR underlying premise.  I've WORKED for my money.  I will do - whether they like it or not - what I wish to do with it. 

I agree however.  One of us, is certainly retarded.  You'll know them when they begin arguing with themselves again.  Pull up a chair and watch with me - its fascinating. 

303

I DO understand that.  Where we differ is that don't pro forma accept the premise that the Washington bureaucrat has any claim to MY money at all.  For any reason.  Which is YOUR underlying premise.  I've WORKED for my money.  I will do - whether they like it or not - what I wish to do with it. 

I agree however.  One of us, is certainly retarded.  You'll know them when they begin arguing with themselves again.  Pull up a chair and watch with me - its fascinating. 

Posted by: Abiss at June 08, 2011 07:12 PM (vhJZ7)

I see. you are for 0 taxes right? No national defense, no boarder control, no government at all?

RON PAUL! he's your guy. Fuck why didn't you tell me you're a paultard, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Good luck with that, the no government at all party. You wan't a road, go build the fucker yourself if you need to get someplace that bad.

304

Pssst.  There he goes again.  Notice - I didn't say ANY of what he just stated in his response.  But he goes off all indignant and stupid as though I had.  Weird no?  Fun to watch though.  You can tell he's American too.  Not only does he NOT get it, he thinks he's righteously correct about what he - self-evidently - isn't understanding.  It takes all kinds I guess.  Can you believe he tried to pass off that he was some big successful VP?!?!  As if...  haha... Couldn't find his ass with a map, compass and both hands. 

 

305

Pssst.  There he goes again.  Notice - I didn't say ANY of what he just stated in his response.  But he goes off all indignant and stupid as though I had.

Really? You want to explain this then? I believe you just said it.

 Where we differ is that don't pro forma accept the premise that the Washington bureaucrat has any claim to MY money at all.  For any reason.  Which is YOUR underlying premise.  I've WORKED for my money.  I will do - whether they like it or not - what I wish to do with it. 

How exactly again is the government you want going to be funded then if not from YOUR money.

Oh I get it. From someone elses money right? Or should they just print it?

Let us in on your grand plan.

306 Let you in on it?  Why?  You're doing a bang up job without me!  This has been fun robtr.  But at the end of the day, without the strawman argument and a good ad hominem attack you're holding your tiny little dick and not much else.  Here's an idea.  Instead of telling people what they're saying, practice responding to what they've actually said.  It makes conversation SO MUCH more pleasurable for the other party.  As a secondary bonus it makes you far less of a bore.  I fear that until you master this skill, you will be left with nothing but your pathetic little fantasy life wherein you make yourself feel 'smaht' by arguing with your own poorly constructed arguments.  In the meantime, feel free to go fuck yourself.  Kthnxbuhbye.

307 Let you in on it?  Why?  You're doing a bang up job without me!  This has been fun robtr.  But at the end of the day, without the strawman argument and a good ad hominem attack you're holding your tiny little dick and not much else.  Here's an idea.  Instead of telling people what they're saying, practice responding to what they've actually said.  It makes conversation SO MUCH more pleasurable for the other party.  As a secondary bonus it makes you far less of a bore.  I fear that until you master this skill, you will be left with nothing but your pathetic little fantasy life wherein you make yourself feel 'smaht' by arguing with your own poorly constructed arguments.  In the meantime, feel free to go fuck yourself.  Kthnxbuhbye.

Posted by: Abiss at June 08, 2011 07:35 PM (vhJZ7)

That's your answer? go fuck yourself? You could have at least repeated what the rest of the Paultards say.

Shut up is why!!!!!! RON PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a fucking loser.

308 robtr, you got a little time on your hands?

309 You guys realize this whole income tax thing is a sick joke right? www.truthattack.org www.losthorizons.com The 16th Amendment created no new power of taxation - google that phrase Fran

310 Wow, robr. Meds dude.

I didn't need to Bing it, I knew that. I also recall some convenient RINOs being the ones that refused to vote for the way out of the -last- recession unless there was a sunset clause in there. In 2011.

Which didn't trigger. Because the replacement was already in place.

0% - to - 35% is not the same as 0% to 55% to 35%.

But if you want me to blame Snowe and Collins. Again. I certainly will.