1 Unthinkable corruption executed with criminal incompetence. Doesn't that pretty much sum up this Administration? Why yes, yes it does.

2 Jug Eared Piece of Shit.

3 They are either pure evil or else evil through pure incompetence.  Those are the end points on the scale to judge them

4

A lot of people are having a hard time embracing the theory that Operation Fast & Furious was nothing more than a backdoor attack on the second amendment. I understand why. It seems like too large a conspiracy to be believable and it's hard to wrap your head around that level of corruption and evil.

I don't have any problem embracing that at all. Anyone who does not believe that this Administration is hell bent on destroying the Constitution and moving us towards a Communist state is goddamned fool.

5 I thought it was obvious that Obama combines criminal intent with incompetence.   What other Combo explains his behavior, day in and day out?

6 They are either pure evil or else evil through pure incompetence.  Those are the end points on the scale to judge them

Posted by: buzzion at October 08, 2011 04:48 PM (GULKT)

Pure evil. They would wish us to think that they are incompetent.

7 1: You beat me to it. Great two sentence summation of the administration John E.

8 the end points on the scale to judge them

Posted by: buzzion at October 08, 2011 04:48 PM (GULKT)

with Respect, sire, they're two sides of the came coin rather than 'end points'

9 "Same coin"  -- tumor is kicking in again

10 intent and incompetance.  isn't that Jay Leno's favorite thing to make fun of; stupid criminals?

11 John E.
You can also find a lot of information on this at Sipsey Street Irregulars (link in my name) as they broke the story, and at Ann Barnhardts blog (barnhardt.biz). 

Your posts and graphics are outstanding.

12 You wingnut teabaggrz love your guns but are trashing Obama for selling gunz!!!

Riiiiiiggghhhttt

13 The corn in my poop is organically grown!

14 Too many instances of this kind of shit for it to be pure incompetence. There is an old saying about accidents and coincidences. 2 times may be a coincidence, three times is enemy action.

Here we have literally 100s.

15 Obama was raised to revere Heroes of Communism who massacred millions and starved millions to death to advance the cause. He was raised at the knee of several absentee males who were steeped in hatred of the Western World and America in particular.

A few dead Mexicans and a few of what he grew up knowing as "pigs" getting killed on the border is small change for him to pay for disarming America. Communist revolution won't do too well if we all still have our scary black rifles.

Obama and Soros can take our money, destroy our jobs, foreclose on our homes, and incite our stupider neighbors to try and take our stuff.
But they cannot make us slaves until they take our guns and the ammo.

People like Obama, Reid and Pelosi are living for the day they can throw the last civilian gun in the smelter.

16 Look we all knew the minute these commie shitbags got into office with all 3 branches they were gonna go hog wild. I shudder to think of the shit they're working on that we DON'T know about.

17 People like Obama, Reid and Pelosi are living for the day they can throw the last civilian gun in the smelter. They won't live that long.

18 The other thing that gets me is how they do this shit knowing full well that they will get away with it. They force the gun dealers to take them to court. And even then they have a history of disobeying court orders anyway when they lose.

19 They won't live that long.

They already had 52% convinced they are the answer. Stupidity like that gives me cold chills.

Let us hope that the number is back down in the 40's.

20

Obama and his ilk are Evil with a capial E. Are they incompetent? Hell no, they don't operate in a vaccuum. Things will eventually leak out either by accident or by someone who says "Hmmm."

DO NOT make the mistake of assigning incompetence to this movement.

Yes, they seem ridiculous but they are also very dangerous.

21 I don't find it hard to believe at all.  I think in order to impose the type of tyranny they dream about, they have to disarm us.  I just don't think it's going to work out the way they plan.

22 And yeah, my grammar in general sucks.

23 Evil or Incompetence.

Hmmm.

Seems to me a psycho clown with a hatchet and floppy red shoes is just as dangerous as your run of the mill psycho with a hatchet.

At this point I don't care. I just want them fired and jailed.

24 >>Unthinkable corruption executed with criminal incompetence. Doesn't that pretty much sum up this Administration?

That's the recipe, but without a double scoop of insufferable fucking arrogance we don't quite get the historic essence of this witches brew.

25 I know I am preaching to the choir here, but doesn't Holder's recent statement an a minimum reflect he is incompentent?  That he didn't know what was going on and he can't hire someone trustworth that could tell him there is a massive problem.

Of course we know he is lying, but just the statement he gave is enough to fire him.

26

I think the whole country is ready for these people to be GONE.

I wish we didn't have to wait until January, 2013 for that to happen; the lame duck period between 11/12 and 01/13 is going to be a long, hard slog for this country.....

27 I don't find it hard to believe at all.  I think in order to impose the type of tyranny they dream about, they have to disarm us.  I just don't think it's going to work out the way they plan.

Posted by: Laura Castellano at October 08, 2011 05:02 PM (fuw6p)

 

I totally agree. I'm convinced that they won't win but the lengths they will go to are what makes them dangerous.

I'm surprised they haven't armed Mara Salvatruca with AK's in urban areas yet.

28 That's pretty much it. Highly unlikely for it to have been anything else.

And our would-be Prairie Firing would-be masters don't have the least idea how many guns are actually out there.

In any case, the game is over for the gun-grabbers. They just don't know it yet. A body can run off an AR lower on a 3D printer now...

...well, come to think on it maybe someone does know it. It might explain the prloposal/trial balloon/whatever to classify the .50BMG upper as a firearm (do I have that right?). If it is, it would be only the first.

29 I know I am preaching to the choir here, but doesn't Holder's recent statement an a minimum reflect he is incompentent?  That he didn't know what was going on and he can't hire someone trustworth that could tell him there is a massive problem.

Of course we know he is lying, but just the statement he gave is enough to fire him.

Liberals think the most holy sacrament a person can perform is to go on Oprah and admit to being a degenerate, lying, cheating, addicted, vile scumbag.

Holder admitting he is a fucking simpleton on TV gives liberals an orgasm.

They'll run his simple racist ass for president some day if he isn't in the federal pen.

30 In a way, this reminds me of Rathergate.  I remember looking at the "typed" memo and thinking "There's no way that someone is that fucking stupid."  Turns out Rather was.

Sadly, I hope there was some Grand Goal in mind because otherwise this whole thing is just utter fucking stupidity. 

31 Wasn't Brady shot with a 5- or 6-shot .22 revolver???

32 ErikW @28, we don't know what has come out of "Gangwalker" (the possible Indiana/Chicago front) yet....

33 JEF SCOAMF combines the worst traits of both Carter and Nixon.

34 the lame duck period between 11/12 and 01/13 is going to be a long, hard slog for this country.....

Especially with pussies like Graham, Boehner, McCain and McConnell giving handjobs across the aisle and playing golf with the SCoaMF.

35 Yes, they seem ridiculous but they are also very dangerous. Yeah, so are we.

36 The people involved in this are all lawyers who have passed the bar. Sorry you don't get to play the 'stupid' card if you are a lawyer operating in your field of proven competence.

Doubtless somebody will come out with a story of a stupid lawyer. The reason you have heard that story is that it is a "Man bites dog" story; something that is so rare it becomes a story which warrants a telling.

If you are a lawyer trying to get away with something - you might be corrupt, you might be evil, but you aren't stupid; you aren't trying to do 'A' and accidentally doing 'B'. Of course because of everyone swallowing whole the "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity" half truth - it never hurts to pretend to be stupid; it means you have a reasonable chance of getting away with behavior that ought to get you hung.
 
The ATF policy changed from the Bush administration to the Obama administration. Agency Policy is set by the President of the US and nobody else.

Obama is in this up to the top of his head.

There simply is no other possibility.

37 They'll run his simple racist ass for president some day if he isn't in the federal pen.

Posted by: sifty at October 08, 2011 05:07 PM (4CSeG)

Holder would look nice in an orange jumper and shackles.

38 Transparency -- good for you, good for me.

39 Holder would look nice in an orange jumper and shackles.

He'll spend the majority of his sentence with his jumpsuit around his ankles being pimped out for Lucky Strikes.

And I will LOL.

40 Oh "the press" lament again. They are cocksuckers who are helping these asssholes. They are deliberately not covering stories that would hurt Obama. They are doing it on purpose. They are staffed with Susan Rosegen type hairy cunts who view their job as advancing leftist shitstain ideas, not journalism.

41 32 Wasn't Brady shot with a 5- or 6-shot .22 revolver???

Posted by: RB at October 08, 2011 05:08 PM (UkrTY)

can't get that outlawed without first getting the bigger guns.

42 The people involved in this are all lawyers who have passed the bar. Sorry you don't get to play the 'stupid' card if you are a lawyer operating in your field of proven competence.

Paging Amish, paging Amish, Amish to the white vitriol phone, please.

43 Lawyers are just used car salesmen who are better at memorization.

Known too many lawyers who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight.

44 Here's what Holder has to look forward to: Mexico Prison Conditions.

The short version is that the Mexicans don't treat their crooks to a spa in Acapulco. I mean, not exactly.

45 27: Thats what I used to think and worry about ---now I think they are reading the polls and they don't intend to limit the earth scorching to just 2.5 months. They will try to scare the country into swinging back to the commiecrats and implement as much as they can get away with in hopes that it can't all be undone even if they lose that gambit.

46 That Piven bitch should be careful what she asks for.

47 Actually we should jail Holder here. Mexico's prisons are crooked. It looks to me like any Yanqui lefty with a few million dollars to spare could spring the guy

48

the lame duck period between 11/12 and 01/13 is going to be a long, hard slog for this country.....

Assuming the idiot GOP can get a candidate up to win.

49 But look how they are getting away with it. And Solyndra. And so much else. The press ignores it, the people shrug. Same old, same old. Only it isn't. So  the nation gets used to a whole new level of corruption and evil that we never could have imagined possible in the past. Which makes it easier for them to step up their game.

The press is breathtakingly corrupt & complicit in this. As bad as I thought they were, I never thought they'd sink this low.

50 Lawyers are just used car salesmen who are better at memorization.

Hey, at least used car salesmen are selling an actual good. 

51 Hinkly used a cheap Rohm RG-14 and so-called "devastator exploding bullets".

52 @37 I don't think being a lawyer means you're smart.  You're just good at memorizing shit.  Didn't the Moron in Chief here at AOSHQ study law?

53 51 Lawyers are just used car salesmen who are better at memorization.

Hey, at least used car salesmen are selling an actual good. 

Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 05:19 PM (Gk3SS)

Aren't you a lawyer or do you just work with them?

54 Hey, at least used car salesmen are selling an actual good.

True. Although even lawyers look good when they get me out of the drunk tank a day early.

55

We're being told we have to choose between two competing theories: "criminal incompetence" and "unthinkable corruption".

 

You're ignoring the third option:  Aryan support groups and right-wing militias will do anything to bring down Our. Young. President.

56 Of course OdipO new about it, that's why he is keeping Holder in place, that is why they just shuffled people in the ATF around so the full truth doesn't come out.  Everything they do is political.  Everything.

57 You guys are anti-lawyerite. Next you'll be saying they should have their own schools.

58 Known too many lawyers who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight.

Yup, lawyers are the biggest assholes walking amongst us.

Afternoon, morons.

59 53: bad example, our law school graduate, moron in chief, actually comes up with smart analysis quite often.

60 Aren't you a lawyer or do you just work with them?

I have a JD and I work with lawyers.  My opinions of my profession, let me show you them.

61 The press is breathtakingly corrupt & complicit in this. As bad as I thought they were, I never thought they'd sink this low.

Posted by: jeannebodine at October 08, 2011 05:18 PM (nvlAW)

They have swirled the shitter. The good news is, people like you, me and everyone else here knows what's really going on and it's not limited to Ace's place.

Sadly, I know people who can't believe that the media would actually lie to them so they believe all that they hear.

Fools.

62 Known too many lawyers who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight.

Or is that what they wanted you to think?


There are a lot of used car salesmen who act really stupid - there is a sizable percentage of people who figure they can outsmart those 'stupid' people.

We have a well known Furniture store owner here in Houston who has made a substantial fortune by acting like any average person could easily outsmart him.

Is it possible that you may be underestimating people who want to be underestimated?

63 61 Aren't you a lawyer or do you just work with them?

I have a JD and I work with lawyers.  My opinions of my profession, let me show you them.

Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 05:27 PM (Gk3SS)

Hehe, yeah I know you don't have a high opinion of it.  Jews and lawyers:  Two groups you can probably find plenty of the self-hating variety.

64 Also Soros et al and Holder and Barry themselves know that we will NOT hang a black man for treason in the country. (I don't know if we would hang anyone rather than just remove from office, but certainly these evil bastids know they have the race card in the hole)

65 Some of it isn't even the lawyers' fault. For too long they were all told they were precious natural resources and the source of all wisdom. Some of them just started to believe it a bit more than others.

People like Holder more so than most.

Hurray! you passed the bar! Now change a flat tire, ya idiot.

66 "Unthinkable corruption executed with criminal incompetence"

You ought to add 'malicious scheming' to the choices.

67 A "Downfall" parody for Operation Fast and Furious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YtBxoQEkZ0

68 Or is that what they wanted you to think?


There are a lot of used car salesmen who act really stupid - there is a sizable percentage of people who figure they can outsmart those 'stupid' people.

We have a well known Furniture store owner here in Houston who has made a substantial fortune by acting like any average person could easily outsmart him.

Is it possible that you may be underestimating people who want to be underestimated?

Heh. I think I'll just side with Mr. Occam on this one.

69

Unthinkable corruption executed with criminal incompetence. Doesn't that pretty much sum up this Administration?

No, actually.

There's also bad policy, very bad policy. An unthinkably corrupt administration could incompetently execute ostensibly good policy. This administration, however, has pushed very bad legislation, pursued very bad foreign policy and advanced a very bad ideology.

In other words, its bad even before they have a chance to engage in corruption or screw things up.

70 Paging Amish, paging Amish, Amish to the white vitriol phone, please.

Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 05:13 PM (Gk3SS)

When I started to read that post, I was sure it was Amish's.  Does his brother post here too?

71 Also Soros et al and Holder and Barry themselves know that we will NOT hang a black man for treason in the country.

Shit, Charlie Rangel was caught red handed cheating on his fucking taxes and he got nothing.

72 http://tinyurl.com/69wya8l

73 Time to break out that old Talleyrand chestnut so that the regime does not get away with the incompetence defense: "It was worse than a crime. It was a blunder." Oh, and by the way, I have seen lesser culpability in the death of others tried as criminally negligent homicide. I'm waiting for some righteously indignant prosecutors to start racking up a few of these bastards.

74

There are a lot of used car salesmen who act really stupid - there is a sizable percentage of people who figure they can outsmart those 'stupid' people.

We have a well known Furniture store owner here in Houston who has made a substantial fortune by acting like any average person could easily outsmart him.

Is it possible that you may be underestimating people who want to be underestimated?

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 05:28 PM (ylhEn)

The problem with this is that it would require the lawyers to be willing to be viewed as dimwitted and could be easily taken by the average person.  Can't see a lawyer being willing to do that.

75 The press ignores it, the people shrug. Same old, same old.

They are getting away with it because when you try to talk to a liberal about this stuff, they actually believe that this went on during the Bush administration.

Yeah, the administration that had every single member of the press and the Democrat party up their ass on a daily basis, looking for anything to make him look bad was sooooo scary smart they were able to get away with stuff just like Fast & Furious right under their noses.

And that's why it's okay for the Dems to do it now.

76 Posted by: Tami-Cardinals fan at October 08, 2011 05:32 PM (X6akg)

I would like to go on record as being on Team Squirrel. 

77 I would like to go on record as being on Team Squirrel. 

Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 05:37 PM (Gk3SS)

They got the nuts.

78 74: Yes Sifty, because we couldn't expect him to understand the tax code (its too complicated for most white people and any black person) --even though he chaired a committee on the tax code -but of course he was qualified to chair that committee.

79 Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at October 08, 2011 05:30 PM (DHM4d)

Very funny!  Thanks

80 Heh. I think I'll just side with Mr. Occam on this one.

Pray tell, what is the mathematical basis for Occam's razor? There is one, or did you not know that?

81 They are getting away with it because when you try to talk to a liberal about this stuff, they actually believe that this went on during the Bush administration.

The other day I had someone tell me, in all seriousness, that Obama was stuck fighting the war in Libya that Bush started.  I quite literally could not think of any way to respond to that that did not start with "I'm sorry are you fucking brain dead?"

82

15,

sifty, you're scratching where i itch.  2A is the end all be all of America.  once that goes, we're really screwed.

83 Pray tell, what is the mathematical basis for Occam's razor? There is one, or did you not know that?

Are you trying to be a dick or a lawyer? I get the two confused.

Because I'm just a simple country bumpkin.

84 eh - I do have a hard time ascribing to F&F an intent to undermine the second amendment, for a few reasons:

1. It is so ham-fisted.  Look, people in general are going to care a lot less about dead Mexicans than they are about dead Americans.  If they really wanted to gin up outrage over gun violence, why not do gun running to gangs in downtown LA or Detroit?

2. It quite honestly sounds too much like something that might come from a Tom Clancy novel.

3. It too conveniently agrees with our prejudices about the left.  We know that they want eventually to take away our guns, yes.  But like this?  Not saying they aren't capable of it, it just sounds more like how we would imagine them doing it, rather than how they actually might do it.

4. Finally it is disturbingly similar to 9/11 Trutherism in the sense that you have to accept some amazingly vile assumptions about government in order to contemplate its validity.  I am just not yet ready to go there.

Okay let the flaming begin.

85 My initial reaction to fast and furious was scoamf's comment to mrs. Brady

86 >>Shit, Charlie Rangel was caught red handed cheating on his fucking taxes and he got nothing.
Posted by: sifty at October 08, 2011 05:33 PM (4CSeG)

Actually he was punished with a Capitol Building ceremony which honored him with the unveiling of his portrait a couple of weeks ago.

.......after being unveiled as a longtime tax law-writing tax cheat.

87 why not do gun running to gangs in downtown LA or Detroit?

Isn't that pretty much what was going on Indiana and possibly Florida, I think? 

Okay let the flaming begin.

I doubt anyone would flame you for that because from what I've seen most of us are trying to come up with reasons why that's not what happened, not what did. 

88 It seems to me that this whole thing could have been a way to further the cartel wars within Mexico, weakening both sides w/ the added benefit of being a useful means to strengthen gun control & push for further restrictions back in the US.

It's the programs in Texas & Florida, leading to the Mexico & Central America, that will show whether the focus was cartel/social-politico or merely a plausibly covert way to gin-up blood soaked statistics to re-enforce gun control.

Whether merely incompetence or not, these programs & the subsequent deaths are related directly to a specific political goal. This administration has shown that everything it does is viewed whole-cloth from the political view. Their response shows that they never expected the media to follow-up on it.

Interestingly enough, much like the John Edward's story, the MSM will be forced to cover the story & have used the "Bush did it too" story to cover their tracks or lessen the blow to their chosen one.

Personally, if we're going to employ conspiracy theory type thoughts, a more reasonable explanation would be that Mexico's government threaten by the opposing cartel used their oil exports to the US as a means to entice the Obama Administration to use back-door arms sales to Calderon favored cartels. This leaves Mexico the ability to outwardly complain about US interference without seeming to be involved & anger opposing cartels further.

Why else hasn't Mexico raised any Fast and Furious outrage at the UN yet, except to use the resulting violence as a means to justify their support for further UN based gun control. Or as a reason to demand a re-newal in the AWB.

89 alexthechick well maybe but I am a RINO squish after all so, who knows

90 Andrew McCarthy at National Review has a nice article reviewing POS Holder's sordid past.....it seems the man has a passion for lying like a dirtbag.
 
Malkin also had him featured prominently in her Culture of Corruption.

91 Obama was stuck fighting the war in Libya that Bush started.

There it is.  The intelligence of the average leftard.

They don't actually think.  They leave that stuff to people like Ed Schulz and Al "resist me much" Sharpton.

They've been told that that is the real news and they are smart for watching it.  And if they don't discuss it, then it's just a lie being told by Fox News.

92 I can see them giving Rangel the "benefit of the doubt" on the taxes. But not on the two rent control apartments he was using for offices. That was an outright knowing violation with no excuse.

93 OT: Air and Space Museum closed after guards mace protesters

After museum guards maced a group of protesters attempting to enter the building with signs, the SmithsonianÂ’s Air and Space Museum has been closed for the day.

ABC7Â’s Sunlen Miller reports that the protesters are part of the October2011 group, not the Occupy DC protesters.

http://tinyurl.com/3jy97zu

Anyone ever heard of that group?

94 The problem with this is that it would require the lawyers to be willing to be viewed as dimwitted and could be easily taken by the average person.  Can't see a lawyer being willing to do that.

Is  it possible that they only wish to seem dimwitted to other lawyers? I knew one who was totally accommodating and gave the other side all the delays they wanted - until they had used up their statutory limit; and then...

95 87: Oh its so sweet that you lack the cynicism to believe the truth in this case. Sweet but naive.

96 Anyone ever heard of that group?

they're just more hippies.
from their website:

" We will encourage a culture of resistance—using music, art, theater and direct nonviolent action—to take control of our country and our lives."

yeah yeah

97 Fast and Furious sounds just like the sort of plan a bunch of shirtless man-children college pricks would think up over a game of beer pong.

That is why I believe it was a half-assed plan to help ban scary black rifles.

FDR managed to pull off a whole lot of secret war shit prior to the official start of WWII. And he managed to give away half of Europe to be enslaved to the Soviets on the advice of commies in his staff.

Kennedy had his Bay of Pigs clusterfuck.

Just because Oliver Stone is a delusional crackhead doesn't mean that there can be nothing secret and utterly stupid going on in the government.

98 chemjeff: I'll take up your flaming challenge on this one:
4. Finally it is disturbingly similar to 9/11 Trutherism in the sense that you have to accept some amazingly vile assumptions about government in order to contemplate its validity.  I am just not yet ready to go there.

Trutherism required you (at the least) to accept that our government brought down three of the WTC towers, whether or not there were civilians in them. F&F requires you to accept that our government delivered thousands of guns to Mexican criminals, whether or not the criminals would kill civilians.

Trutherism fails at the most basic level. In F&F, we already know that our government committed a gross violation of Mexican sovereignty, and that our government knew that Mexicans would be murdered as a result (shit, some of the agents saw it coming, and warned it).

No-one ever had to ask "who in the government knew that there'd be civilians in the towers" or "why did the government authorise 9/11" - because 9/11 Troof was a known hoax.

But F&F is already at the stage where we need to know why Holder and his peons didn't put an end to this fiasco. For one thing, Holder hasn't yet delivered a straight answer to when he'd even heard of it.

99 END OBAMA'S ILLEGAL WAR ON MEXICO NOW!!!

100 Everyone knows the air and space museum is a tool of the capitalist running dog oppressors.

101 " We will encourage a culture of resistance—using music, art, theater and direct nonviolent action—to take control of our country and our lives."

yeah yeah

Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 05:55 PM (czcue)

Does they say anything about hating air & space?

102

Actually he was punished with a Capitol Building ceremony which honored him with the unveiling of his portrait a couple of weeks ago.

Posted by: ontherocks at October 08, 2011 05:45 PM (HBqDo)

I have no words.

Actually I do. I hope he gets cancer.

103

Tired of:

(1) "crisis" after "crisis" where the only cure is to have working Americans hand over even more money to left-leaning organizations or people

(2) no one having the guts to start prosecuting.  If there were prosecutions pending, the press would have little choice but to start doing its job, even if only to make excuses.  Where are the prosecutors? 

104 Does they?  Do they.....

105 102: Thanks that made me laugh.

106 Fair enough, chemjeff, but:

1. It also tallies with the oft-repeated "90% of traced guns in Mexico come from the U.S." nonsense (they're down to around 70 now, which is still too high)...aaaand, something may still boil up out of the Gangwalker stories. Might not, sure, but I don't think that's the way to bet.

2. Everything else they've done has pretty much come from an Ayn Rand novel, so you pays your money and you takes your choice.

3. Nothing else they've tried has worked. Nobody's buying the old blood dance, but otherwise those folks have no idea what people not in their circle think, believe, or how they will react. Maybe someone looked at

4. Remember who launched the President's political career from his living room? Prairie Fire. Remember his wife? “First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim’s stomach! Wild!” Vile? They're just getting warmed up. One needn't make vile assumptions about the state (other than to note that it attracts a type who enjoy minding other people's business), just about the people who happen to be in said government at the time.

107 I am all for taking all air away from those protesters.

108 Are you trying to be a dick or a lawyer? I get the two confused.

Because I'm just a simple country bumpkin.

Not trying to be either just trying to establish how much you understand about what you are saying. Not being condescending or mean. Just trying to learn.

109 Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 05:44 PM

I do not believe there are any depths to which Obama and his fellow travelers will not descend to achieve their aims of fundamentally changing the country and I am dead certain that it will not be change for the better.

110 Not being condescending or mean. Just trying to learn.

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 05:58 PM (ylhEn)

Whatever.

111

we must stop this herman cain nonsense. obama will make him look like a fool.

the cringe factor will go off the chart

112 Ron Paul wins the Values Voters summit straw poll. Why do we bother with these stupid straw polls?  They bus Paul supporters in by the hundreds.  Can't we just stipulate that Ron Paul wins them all and be done with them?

113 Oops -- forgot to finish the third point, sorry. Someone might have thought images from Mexico on TV a la the Ethiopian famine of the 1980s might tug enough heartstrings to get Congress to Do Something!!! Also note that while they probably have people who can count, plenty of 'em apparently sincerely believe along with Michael Moore that the "silent majority" is progressive, and just waiting for the right leadership (remind anyone of a campaign slogan?).

114 After museum guards maced a group of protesters attempting to enter the building with signs, the SmithsonianÂ’s Air and Space Museum has been closed for the day

When I was there recently, one of the docents said that they have protesters there every year, and every year they try to damage the Enola Gay.  These may be members of that coven group. 

115 Trutherism required you (at the least) to accept that our government brought down three of the WTC towers, whether or not there were civilians in them.


That's not how I see it - Trutherism requires you to believe that Bush intended to murder thousands of Americans so that he would have justification to start a war and create a police state.  His case for said dastardly actions would have been a lot lower had no Americans died.

But F&F is already at the stage where we need to know why Holder and his peons didn't put an end to this fiasco.

Well I absolutely agree that it's a total fiasco, I'm just not yet willing to believe it was a deliberate plan to undermine 2A rights.

116 115

we must stop this herman cain nonsense. obama will make him look like a fool.

the cringe factor will go off the chart

Posted by: rik at October 08, 2011 06:00 PM (ih+6i)

 

Herman Cain will spank JEF mercilessly; highlighting all of JEF's abject and avoidable failures (i.e., just about every bill proposed and policy decision made) will cause JEF to become severely medicated ... probably to the extentthat JEF can no longer make public appearances, only private ones to a vry small and Very loyal group of insiders.

117 seriously, rik?

118

Posted by: pep at October 08, 2011 06:03 PM (6TB1Z)

no, this stupid October2011 group is another one of those anarcho-idjit anti-war anti-"the man" groups.

119 Herman Cain could have a lobotomy and still make more sense than the SCOAMF.

rik FAIL

120 Operation Fast and Furious?  Never heard of it!

121 I am a RINO squish

Come over to the dark side.  The water's fine.  We eat the babies at 8.

122 no, this stupid October2011 group is another one of those anarcho-idjit anti-war anti-"the man" groups.

Punch them.
 They'll cry.

123

Why do we bother with these stupid straw polls? 

 

To part fools from their money.

124 I am all for taking all air away from those protesters.

I believe we're failing to see the upside to these protests. We have so many of those folks in one place at the same time that it would be a fine time to set up a fence and demand that they all undergo a delousing (for public health) and skills training (here's a mop and here's dirty floor) and be educated (no...a real education) so that they will leave there with a better understanding of what makes the world go 'round.

It would be a quarantine.

We can quarantine those who spread disease, right?

125

This timeline really shows how it all got started back in 2009: http://tinyurl.com/4xzsaah

Had we responsible media this would have been the lead story for the past week.

126 Fast and Furious, yeah, I slept with that guy right after I broke up with Anthony Weiner.

127

Okay let the flaming begin.
Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 05:44 PM (czcue)

Then there's

5. Even the stupidest idiot in the Obama Administration had to know they couldn't have kept this a secret forever. Even the lesser idiots must have known this wouldn't remain "under the radar" for long.

6. Weren't vinyards and distilleries still legally operating during Prohibition? This is too similar to that: A societal ill is caused by the producer of an undesirable product, so the product is taken away from the citizens, but the producers can continue to make and export the product. It doesn't make any sense.

My money's on stupid over sinister this time.

 

128 >>I'm just not yet willing to believe it was a deliberate plan to undermine 2A rights.
Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 06:04 PM (czcue)

Be careful of the alligators (and undercover Israeli sharks) in that river you're bathing in. 

129 I am all for taking all air away from those protesters

Why?  They are their movement's own worst enemies.  Round the clock coverage, I say.

130 Fast and Furious.  That describes how I emailed pics of my junk to every female that I ever met.

131 I'm just not yet willing to believe it was a deliberate plan to undermine 2A rights.

Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 06:04 PM (czcue)

Okay. What do you believe it to be?

Do you believe Holder?

C'mon, dude.

132

>>we must stop this herman cain nonsense. obama will make him look like a fool.

the cringe factor will go off the chart

Posted by: rik at October 08, 2011 06:00 PM (ih+6i)

Yeah, you go get started on that and report back to us.

133 The Fast an Furious discussion is just distracting from how awesome a President I was as compared to the jug-eared half-wit that is in there now.

134 Uh hello.... Scoamf said that Mexico had more to fear from the USA with crimes being committed by guns from our side of the bOrder.....and that illegal immigratiOn was minimal compared to that. And Please remember that dodson's boss told him not to stake out the house the guns went to after purchase and not to tail the transfer of those weapons when they were removed from said house....and it was naPalitano who said Dodson was a bad agent because he purchased the guns even thOugh his boss ordered him to.....the president holder and naPalitano are to blame for two agent deaths and hundreds of Mexican citizen deaths

135 At one point, there must have been an ATF brainstorming session, and somebody said, "Hey, everyone just throw out your ideas to..I don't know.. um.. stop the gun problem..um..at the border or something."

Fifty throw out bad ideas later, McKlusky throws out, "Hey, why don't we give Mexican drug cartels a few thousand guns? Then they could shoot up all over the place using the guns and.....never mind."

ATF Bigshot: "Hold on, you've got something there! Pointless and dangerous, but we need some action."

136 This is a cool short film (9 min.) about the first Blue Angels team 1946-49 and the planes they flew, Grumman Bearcats....and the current Blue Angels and their F-18's.

http://tinyurl.com/3tjdzlg

137 How can a person tell when something is real and when it has no relationship to reality?

There is a simple way: things which are real have attachments to other parts of reality and cause 'ripple' effects because of those attachments. Things which are not real have no attachments to reality and thus cause no ripples.


An example: let us take two theories about the 9/11 attacks. 1. The truther theory, and 2. The Al Qaeda caused the attacks theory.

The Truther theory - that the government staged the fall of the buildings in New York by pre planting explosives - would require certain ripples: one of them being that government personnel were able to plant enough strategic charges at key points to make the Twin Towers look like they fell from the top down - without anyone noticing anybody doing anything to the buildings. Second, the Truther theory requires that the government conspirators know before hand which floors the air liners were going to hit. The truther theory requires a lot more ripples - none of which exist.

The Al-Qaeda theory requires a different set of ripples - all of which do exist.

The conclusion is that the Al-Qaeda theory is the more correct theory and the most likely cause of the events.

The 'Holder and Obama are behind Fast and Furious' theory requires certain ripples - all of which exist; the DOJ is trying to stonewall the investigation - Holder and Obama are being evasive. The ATF policy was changed when the new administration took over. Those are all reality attachments.

The 'it was all stupidity' theory requires other attachments and ripples. Nobody would be trying to cover anything up if this was all the result of dumb-assery.
Some underling somewhere would be saying "I screwed this all up - the administration wanted 'A' and I gave them 'B'". etc. None of those ripples exist.

138 Why?  They are their movement's own worst enemies.  Round the clock coverage, I say.

No, I mean literally taking away their air.

139 Well, mainly it seems as if it was a plan to track associations between different criminal elements in Mexico via the transfer of guns.  So if a gun was sold to Jose but then ended up at a crime scene where Manuel pulled off the hit, then we know that there is some connection between Jose and Manuel.  It was amazingly stupid, though, precisely because people were going to get killed as a result, and nobody stopped even to think about border agents possibly getting killed.  It sounds more like an idea that sounds "brilliant" to a bureaucrat in DC but is stunningly stupid to everyone who has sense.

140 139, Ace is too busy pounding strangely-taller-than-average, husky-voiced Thai hookers to get really balls-deep into this story right now.

But I agree with chemjeff on this much: the 2A stuff is a bit out-there right now. Not Truther-level crazy (I had to correct him there), but out-there enough that it puts Ace into one of his Moods. You remember those Moods.

So I guess my recommendation is to keep spreading the word about what we do know; and what we do know is enough to get Holder impeached and several episodes of Who Gets To Spend The Night In A Saltillo Prison amongst his staff.

141 Paging Ace of Spades..... Paging Ace of Spades..... Ace, ace, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace? Where are you? Since you are a poll guy and believe in quote/unquote objective facts like poll numbers, I thought I'd drop you some of Perry's dismal poll numbers from your friend Allahpundit: http://tinyurl.com/3m3cjk8 I don't understand. You seemed so eager to discuss Palin's poll numbers but you are now so coy about Perry's? Why?

142 It was amazingly stupid, though, precisely because people were going to get killed as a result, and nobody stopped even to think about border agents possibly getting killed.  It sounds more like an idea that sounds "brilliant" to a bureaucrat in DC but is stunningly stupid to everyone who has sense.

Yeah, except that they didn't actually track the guns.  That's where the tinhatty stuff begins.  The idea to sell the guns and then track them is stupid but at least has some type of plausible connection to an investigation.  In this case, the guns were sold and then not tracked.  If the guns weren't being tracked, then what the hell was the point? 

143 What if Holder and SCOAMF hired the Tucson shooter to shoot Gabby Giffords? Hey, I'm just asking questions.

144 Where's this "incompetence" I keep hearing about?

PLAN: Deliver guns to Mexican killers, so they can kill people with them. RESULT: Guns delivered, people dead.

And someone ratted. But no one cares.

So, job well done. Maybe not finished, but done—like if you hire a paint crew, and they do the job well and on time, but they leave behind a broken ladder and you have to take it to the dump yourself before the local home-and-garden magazine photographer shows up.

BFD.

145 I don't understand. You seemed so eager to discuss Palin's poll numbers but you are now so coy about Perry's? Why?

Because ace is on vacation?  Thus all the posts that say "guest blogger"? 

But hey, don't let facts and reality get in the way of being a prick. 

146 >>I don't understand. You seemed so eager to discuss Palin's poll numbers but you are now so coy about Perry's? Why?
Posted by: Daniel at October 08, 2011 06:23 PM (vZ8fl)

Dude, wrong blog, wrong point, wrong week.

147

Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 06:21 PM (czcue)

But how do you track a weapon once it gets in a criminals hand? You can't. It disappears.

148 But how do you track a weapon once it gets in a criminals hand? You can't. It disappears. Posted by: ErikW at October 08, 2011 06:26 PM (qcUQT) You put a collar and a radio transmitter around the guy's neck. Then Marlon Perkins and Jock follow him in the Range Rover whilst mixing martinis.

149
I don't understand. You seemed so eager to discuss Palin's poll numbers but you are now so coy about Perry's? Why?

Posted by: Daniel at October 08, 2011 06:23 PM (vZ8fl)

A)

He's on vacation

B)

Perry's numbers suck.

 

Palin was a clunker out of the gate. Perry managed to crash into a wall after a short sprint.

150 The 'it was all stupidity' theory requires other attachments and ripples. Nobody would be trying to cover anything up if this was all the result of dumb-assery.
Some underling somewhere would be saying "I screwed this all up - the administration wanted 'A' and I gave them 'B'". etc. None of those ripples exist.

Either that; or there's be some entertaining mutual recriminations to watch: "I did this, but my boss told me to" and "I'm his boss, and I told him to do X and the dickhead did Y, and by the way he's fired". And then their boss would "accept new opportunities" elsewhere and that department would be reorg'ed.

But the stonewalling stinks of something more intentional. Or maybe it's two guys in a tiger suit.

151 Now, the Sleaze Party members are crapping on cop cars. These are Obama's people.

http://tinyurl.com/64kv5h4

152 Yeah, except that they didn't actually track the guns.  That's where the tinhatty stuff begins.  The idea to sell the guns and then track them is stupid but at least has some type of plausible connection to an investigation.  In this case, the guns were sold and then not tracked.  If the guns weren't being tracked, then what the hell was the point? 
Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 06:24 PM

Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals.

153

But how do you track a weapon once it gets in a criminals hand? You can't. It disappears.

 

Don't you be worryin' your head, there, boy. 

Miss Cleo 'll be trackin' dem wepons for ya', child.

154 >>If the guns weren't being tracked, then what the hell was the point? 
Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 06:24 PM (Gk3SS)

The guns weren't being tracked for the same reason a mob boss doesn't verbally and explicitly order the hit - plausible deniability.

This wasn't about law enforcement, it was a criminal conspiracy from the get go. Everything known to date points to this.

155 In this case, the guns were sold and then not tracked.  If the guns weren't being tracked, then what the hell was the point? 

Posted by: alexthechick at October 08, 2011 06:24 PM (Gk3SS)

This.  And this is what will sink them.  They didn't even fake a method of tracking them.

156 Tami,

I have seen one of the airworthy Bearcats in person. I live in Fl near Leeward's Air Ranch (yes, the guy that crashed his plane in the race). Years ago I delivered a marble bathtub to one of the houses out there (well, hanger with a house attached) and sitting in the front yard was the beefiest toughest looking prop plane I ever saw. I spoke with the owner and he said it was one of the last Bearcats to come off the production line. He had owned it since the mid sixties. Beautiful plane.

157

One of the best posts I've read on the subject.

Only a bunch of inexperienced fools would suggest such a silly plan. Only extreme authority could push it through midst the inevitable chorus of objection.

But only a strong dogmatic agenda would inspire such stupidity.

158 I checked up Daniel / vZ8fl on Google. This is all he talks about.

Well, that, and "yes, BTH; but what sort of sammich do you want?"

159 Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals.

Posted by: huerfano at October 08, 2011 06:32 PM (fecOD)

And the point of that would be?

160

The 'it was all stupidity' theory requires other attachments and ripples. Nobody would be trying to cover anything up if this was all the result of dumb-assery.
Some underling somewhere would be saying "I screwed this all up - the administration wanted 'A' and I gave them 'B'". etc. None of those ripples exist.

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 06:20 PM (ylhEn)

Because no one has ever tried to cover up that something has failed due to their incompetence...

161

I've posted, a few times over the last few months, that I think that what became F&F started out as an idiotic plan by a couple of stridently political (and stoned) Prog operatives (staffers/consultants/other) in the WH who were able to sell their idea to a higher-up, who then took some sort of action ......

At a couple of junctures, the plan morphed a bit to set the MFIC's agenda. The whole time "highest secrecy" , "need-to-know" and opsec procedures were followed, so that eventually no one knew the entire plan.

At each stage, a few of the good guys were brought in to do certain simple, mundane things, probably legal, maybe gray-area. The operation acquired a life of its own, as too many people were involved and no one person could shut it down.

Here we are today.

Hopefully, some of the low-level ATF/FBI/DoJ/other personnel who are involved but not responsible for initiating these operations will step forward and testify publicly ... while they still can.

162

They didn't even fake a method of tracking them.

 

It was enough already, and I just wanted to get some sleep.

 

163 I spoke with the owner and he said it was one of the last Bearcats to come off the production line. He had owned it since the mid sixties. Beautiful plane.

Posted by: Mr. Book at October 08, 2011 06:33 PM (qe1yY)

I know zero about planes but that was a great video of the old and the new and the formation they flew together.

164 The latest polls are worthless news polls.

165

@chemjeff

What I think you are missing is that:

1. There is no simple legitimate way to get a lot of guns into gang hands (who already have them).

2. Even morons can figure out the exposure if the plan came to light. If hundreds of Americans were suddenly killed, even the MSM could not provide cover.

166

It was enough already, and I just wanted to get some sleep.

 

Posted by: Elaine Benes at October 08, 2011 06:35 PM (LXcX9)

I Lol'd!

167 If Fast and Furious were the result of dumb-assery, the government would have long ago found the dumb ass responsible. DOJ didn't look for him because they knew he didn't exist - and it never occurred to them to look for something that they knew didn't exist. By the way DOJ too late to start looking.

168

And the point of that would be?

Posted by: Tami-Cardinals fan at October 08, 2011 06:34 PM

Since interdiction was not the point and tracking the guns when they got across the border was not the point, I can only assume, and yeah I know about assuming, the purpose was to place the blame for the deaths of Mexicans on the evil American gun dealers and evil American assault weapons that went across the border courtesy of the evil American Second Amendment.

169 I can see it being a case of this being an incredibly poorly handled job by the administration with an inention to track the guns,  (of course they failed to do that spectacularly) and at the same time some of the liberal stains involved in the implementation viewing a potential benefit of attacking the second amendment through this process as even better than whatever the actual purpose was supposed to be.

170 This is a cool short film (9 min.) about the first Blue Angels team 1946-49 and the planes they flew, Grumman Bearcats....and the current Blue Angels and their F-18's.

http://tinyurl.com/3tjdzlg
Posted by: Tami-Cardinals fan
---
Great movie, Tami. Thanks.

171 Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals.

That's what I am thinking.

172

Posted by: huerfano at October 08, 2011 06:42 PM (fecOD)

 

MFM has / had already tried this in the 08 election cycle.  No doubt they would be willing to do it again.

173 Posted by: Tami-Cardinals fan at October 08, 2011 06:35 PM (X6akg) I have mixed feelings about these planes being flown. Yes, it's an indescribable thrill to see them roaring over your head. But if one of them crashes, especially if it is a last-of-its-kind, that would be a tragic, irreplaceable loss, to say nothing of the loss of the pilot and anyone on the ground. The F8F Bearcat is a gorgeous ship to behold, nonetheless.

174 By the way, for people who don't believe in conspiracies: 9/11 was the result of a huge conspiracy involving hundreds or thousands of people world wide. So, sorry, big conspiracies do - in fact - exist; nor is it paranoia to correctly believe that to be true.

175 Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals.

That's what I am thinking.

Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 06:47 PM (czcue)

How is the US ATF going to track a gun at a Mexican crime scene?  Especially since the Mexican gov't. wasn't told about the program.

176
You put a collar and a radio transmitter around the guy's neck. Then Marlon Perkins and Jock follow him in the Range Rover whilst mixing martinis.

Marlon "Bombay for Breakfast" Perkins: Jim Fowler will now reach in  the crocodile's mouth to retrieve a sample of his diet.

Jim: Do what now?

Marlon: Reach in the crocodile's mouth and get a sample.

Jim: Of what?

Marlon: His diet.

Jim: Um. No.

Marlon: Go on Jim.

Jim: Fuck you Marlon.

Marlon: Jim, we still have those pictures.

Jim: I hate you Marlon.

Marlon: I know Jim. And your wife hates cheaters, so reach in the crocodile's mouth or I stop by the post office on my way home tonight.

177 9/11 was the result of a huge conspiracy involving hundreds or thousands of people world wide.

Well, using your definition, 9/11 was a "conspiracy" in the same sense that any military operation is a "conspiracy".

178

We shouldn't forget the "blame Bush" aspect of this.

Gunwalker was started back in 2005 under Bush, iirc. ....It worked because it envolved the help of Mexican officials at the border, to assist in the capture of the gunrunners that had been tracked on this side from the point of sale.

Fast & Furious was morphed from Gunwalker, in 2009. ....The 'tracking' component of the operation was omitted. On purpose. ....Which destroys the argument that it was "all a big screwup". ....The volume was turned up, on the number of guns flowing southward....which further suggests that someone wanted to be able to point to a large volume of guns flowing to Mexico.

They figured that since they had succeeded in blaming Bush for everything else...that they would be able to do that again, if what they had done ever came to light.

If the border agent had not gotten killed......we could very will be seeing them pointing to the number of guns flowing into Mexico as a reason for new gun control laws, right now.

179 Unfortunately, Occam favors the "conspiracy" here.

Because if you wanted to take the MBM's story that 90% of the Mexican drug gang's guns are coming from Mexico and make it true, what would you do differently?

Besides, it's easier to believe in a conspiracy when people on the inside blow the whistle on it. Mostly because the one thing that is always working against conspiracy theories is the fact that the more people involved the harder to keep mouths shut.

180 Well, using your definition, 9/11 was a "conspiracy" in the same sense that any military operation is a "conspiracy".

Home run, chemjeff.

181 Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals.

That's what I am thinking.

Posted by: chemjeff at October 08, 2011 06:47 PM (czcue)

In Mexico?

You guys are killing me.

182 @chemjeff - yeah, there's that too.  Plus 9/11 was planned by a small group of people who maintained OpSec.  That's why most civilian government conspiracies fail, they don't do "need to know" well, or they ask people to do things that are both out of place and stupid.

Which is why, just like his handling of the economy, we are forced to ask that if SCOAMF wanted to use Mexico as a foil against 2A rights, what would he do differently?

And we come back with "Not a damned thing."

183 It looks like the only way these jerks are going to stay out of jail is to stay in power past 2012. I'm sure thery're pretty motivated to use any method possible. They have no moral compass and they think we deserve to be screwed.

184 I can see it being a case of this being an incredibly poorly handled job by the administration with an inention to track the guns,  (of course they failed to do that spectacularly) and at the same time some of the liberal stains involved in the implementation viewing a potential benefit of attacking the second amendment through this process as even better than whatever the actual purpose was supposed to be.

Ok, what would be the reality ripples and attachment points for your theory to be true? Can you find any of those ripples? Show them to us and I'll accept your theory.

The problem you face is that your theory is a form of the "it was all dumb-assery" theory, and the reality ripples for that one - that the government would have long ago identified the responsible dumb ass - among other things - simply don't exist.

185 "A lot of people are having a hard time embracing the theory that Operation Fast & Furious was nothing more than a backdoor attack on the second amendment."

Not me! I also believe this protest is a precursor to marshall law and the end of elections!

186 Posted by: sifty at October 08, 2011 06:50 PM (4CSeG) Yeah! That was a scream!

187 @190 -

No, the protests are just standard fare for the unemployable maggot-infested, dope-smoking, sandal-wearing gimme-gimme hippies.

We know this because the only people outraged by the Beatdown on the Brooklyn Bridge are other hippies.

188

How is the US ATF going to track a gun at a Mexican crime scene?  Especially since the Mexican gov't. wasn't told about the program.

Posted by: Tami-Cardinals fan at October 08, 2011 06:49 PM

The Mexicans turn many of the guns over to the ATF to be tracked as noted in the Sipsey Street Irregular post Scott J linked above.  All the guns allowed into Mexico via F&F would be traceable to US gun dealers. 

This timeline really shows how it all got started back in 2009: http://tinyurl.com/4xzsaah

Had we responsible media this would have been the lead story for the past week.

Posted by: Scott J at October 08, 2011 06:07 PM

What I don't understand, is why the ATF and DoJ thought gun dealers would remain silent once the guns were traced back to them.

189 152 But how do you track a weapon once it gets in a criminals hand? You can't. It disappears.
______

You put a GPS tracker thingie on it, then go to your computer and look for the little red dot.

190 Nothing gets tracked once it hits Mexico. The most organized thing in Mexico are the cartels, and they have to constantly keep killing each other to keep any kind of order.
The corruption is terrible at every level from street pickpocket to El Presidente.

Those guns were a means to do two things:
1. Stir the pot up and see who was going to kill who hoping that the right ones would die.
2 Reinforce the desire of the American public to ban scary black rifles.

Once those guns left the store all the DoJ had to do is sit back and watch who killed who and jot it down in a little notepad.

191 I have mixed feelings about these planes being flown. Yes, it's an indescribable thrill to see them roaring over your head. But if one of them crashes, especially if it is a last-of-its-kind, that would be a tragic, irreplaceable loss, to say nothing of the loss of the pilot and anyone on the ground.

A ship in the harbor is safe from the storm...but that's not what ships are for.

192

The problem you face is that your theory is a form of the "it was all dumb-assery" theory, and the reality ripples for that one - that the government would have long ago identified the responsible dumb ass - among other things - simply don't exist.

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 06:58 PM (ylhEn)

How can you have it in your mind that no one would ever ever ever ever try to cover up their incompetence?  Especially when you want to be seen as capable and in control.  People will try to cover up that they were stupid.  Identifying the responsible dumbass does not allow them to continue pretending that they are capable.

193 I can see it being a case of this being an incredibly poorly handled job by the administration with an inention to track the guns,  (of course they failed to do that spectacularly) and at the same time some of the liberal stains involved in the implementation viewing a potential benefit of attacking the second amendment through this process as even better than whatever the actual purpose was supposed to be.


If the intent were to track weapons the DOJ would have long ago produced the supporting documentation to that effect. "We meant to do this but..." Where is that documentation? Sorry, your theory has no attachment to reality - it can't be true.

194 Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals. Except that leaves ATF and anyone involved else complicit in all crimes committed. Stings don't let people just go away. They follow they bad guys and pick them up before as they are about to commit crimes. That ATF guy was specifically told NOT to track.

195 Ace keeps coming back to the Big Question:

What Was The Goal?

They keep using the phrase "botched surveillance operation".

There was no surveillance. There are no little tracking devices or cameras and mics on those guns. They can't have a psychic interview the guns and see where they have been.

When the government is willing to use the words "botched joke" "botched surveillance" or botched anything about itself, you know something is fucking rotten.

This is a government that is still trying to tell us AmTrak and Porkulus are great success stories.

Wen the word botched gets thrown around it is a huge red flag.

196 with an inention to track the guns, (of course they failed to do that spectacularly) Uh yeah, except the guys on the ground in Arizona where specifically told to NOT TRACK THE GUNS. So it looks like this is the new meme to explain this away.

197 Perhaps the tracking was to begin once the guns were picked up at crime scenes or confiscated from criminals.

So they wanted to track the guns on the way from the crime scene to the evidence lock-up?
They were willing to let people be murdered to find out how a gun got from Juan the Corpse's house to the police station?

198

If the intent were to track weapons the DOJ would have long ago produced the supporting documentation to that effect. "We meant to do this but..." Where is that documentation? Sorry, your theory has no attachment to reality - it can't be true.

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 07:06 PM (ylhEn)

Not if they were incompetent.  And if they did not want to admit their incompetence they would not present documentation that said "this was our plan but we royally fucked up"

And I think its somewhere between pure incompetence and pure evil.  As I said, those are the endpoints on the scale to judge them.

199 Except that leaves ATF and anyone involved else complicit in all crimes committed. Stings don't let people just go away. They follow they bad guys and pick them up before as they are about to commit crimes. That ATF guy was specifically told NOT to track. Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at October 08, 2011 07:08 PM

Yes, he was.  Dodson demanded the letter from his supervisor so that he would not be the fall guy regarding those pistols.  And the ATF and the DoJ are complicit in all the crimes committed with the guns they allowed into Mexico, however high up that goes.

200 The ATF and the FBI were, on a large scale  and with no apparent controls,  doing the exact opposite of what their job is supposed to be.

That is not just incompetent. And if you want to give the benefit of the doubt to a corrupt group that thrive and prosper on those and endless other purloined benefits, that you are truly a useful idiot.

201

And I think its somewhere between pure incompetence and pure evil.  As I said, those are the endpoints on the scale to judge them.

Posted by: buzzion at October 08, 2011 07:14 PM (GULKT)

Make up your mind, buzzion.

202

If the intent were to track weapons the DOJ would have long ago produced the supporting documentation to that effect. "We meant to do this but... Someone else is doing it" Where is that documentation? Sorry, your theory has no attachment to reality - it can't be true.

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 07:06 PM (ylhEn)

If the original operation morphed a few times, and was subdivided (intentionally or not), then potentially no one has supporting documentation because, as everyone's higher-ups likely told them (possibly because they were told), someone else was doing the tracking.

203

Uh yeah, except the guys on the ground in Arizona where specifically told to NOT TRACK THE GUNS.

So it looks like this is the new meme to explain this away.

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at October 08, 2011 07:12 PM (0IQvs)

Well I did say they failed spectacularly at it.  To me personally the intention behind the operation isn't that important.  Because no matter the intention the end result is still "The US government helped drug cartels in Mexico get guns that they used to kill people."  And whether that happened because they wanted it to or because they sucked so bad at their jobs heads need to roll for it.

204 The velcro cowboys in the FBI and ATF are not above shooting and burning American citizens alive in their homes.

A few dead Mexicans is not something they are likely to lose much sleep over.

205 that then you are truly a useful idiot.

206

What I don't understand, is why the ATF and DoJ thought gun dealers would remain silent once the guns were traced back to them.

They were sold it as going after the straw buyers.

Plus any gun dealer can have their license yanked by the ATF and be put out of business.

There are also dealers who aren't really pro 2A. They figure they can survive on law enforcement contract sales if civillian ownership goes down.

Dig deeper into Mike's site and find the audio recording between the FFL and the ATF agent. The FFL was coming up with ideas to cover it up.

207 There are also dealers who aren't really pro 2A. They figure they can survive on law enforcement contract sales if civillian ownership goes down.

True. There is one gun store here in Burbank that everyone calls The Asshole Gun Store.

They treat anyone without a badge like crackhead criminals. So much so that the gun store down the street has a sign on their wall outside saying "The Gun Store Without The Attitude".

208

Unfortunately it is far to easy to believe that FF was an attempt to backdoor stricter gun control laws.  It doesn't even take much of a stretch of the imgination.

Nor is it much of stretch of the imagination to figure out what life would be like once the country has been disarmed and only the criminals have guns. (Saying criminals and government would be redundant).

209 How can you have it in your mind that no one would ever ever ever ever try to cover up their incompetence?  Especially when you want to be seen as capable and in control.  People will try to cover up that they were stupid.  Identifying the responsible dumbass does not allow them to continue pretending that they are capable.

Of course people would try to cover up being dumb asses, that is what dumb asses do. Once again the ties to reality and the ripples that spread out from them are different than what we are seeing.

Let us suppose that Holder is the dumb ass for a second - that Obama meant for something else to happen. We would not see the DOJ trying to claim that they knew nothing, and then claim that Issa was briefed on something that they claim they didn't know about. If Obama knew he meant something good to happen he would have long ago thrown a guilty Holder under the bus to cover his own ass - wouldn't you? Obama has thrown people under the bus for a lot less. Instead he is depending on Holder to cover his ass for him - he knows Holder is not the dumb ass. That means the dumb ass would have to be somebody lower than Holder; why wouldn't Holder have long ago crucified him? Loyalty to subordinates - from these back stabbers?


Imagine for a second that Bush had instructed DOJ to do the Gunrunner he did instruct them to create - but instead they gave him Fast and Furious with a Federal agent and hundreds of Mexicans killed. He would have been all over them to find out what Dumb Ass fucked that up - he fired DOJ attorneys for a lot less.

The 'some dumb ass fucked up' theory doesn't attach to reality either. Sorry.

210

Imagine for a second that Bush had instructed DOJ to do the Gunrunner he did instruct them to create - but instead they gave him Fast and Furious with a Federal agent and hundreds of Mexicans killed. He would have been all over them to find out what Dumb Ass fucked that up - he fired DOJ attorneys for a lot less.

Um, do you realize you have just attempted to claim that a Democrat administration would fire guys for engaging in borderline criminal or full on criminal activities because that's what a Republican administration would do?

211 @buzzion -

Well, we have precedent to go on.  King Putt has had people dismissed merely for making him look bad.

And this makes him look VERY bad indeed.

But instead of dismissals, we see people inside ATF getting promoted and transferred out of public view.

That's what you do when you're trying to hide malfeasance, not trying to cover for stupidity.

212 216 @buzzion -

Well, we have precedent to go on.  King Putt has had people dismissed merely for making him look bad.

And this makes him look VERY bad indeed.

But instead of dismissals, we see people inside ATF getting promoted and transferred out of public view.

That's what you do when you're trying to hide malfeasance, not trying to cover for stupidity.

Posted by: brian at October 08, 2011 07:41 PM (y05cf

Its also possible that that its not done making him look bad.  Its possible that there is something we do not yet know, and only if that ever is found out will Obama disown whoever he needs to.  You are right that he dismisses people for  making him look bad,  but look at Jeremiah Wright.  He was making Obama look bad and he attempted to defend him through all the bullshit, and only after Wright made that "Obama is just being a politician" line did Obama finally disown him.

Also consider that public awareness on this is pretty low thanks to the MBM and they might be looking to avoid drawing more attention to it by firing people for it.

213 Another problem for the "dumbass theory": There were 'tards working in the Federal Government under Bush, as well. This government is large, and Bush helped make it larger; and large organisations have inertia. The Katrina response, for instance, was clumsy. Now, the pro-Bush crowd can excuse this that New Orleans' government was a joke and that Louisiana's government was inept at the time; so the Feds were unprepared for just how much of the burden they'd have to carry. But that sorta goes to my point as well, that at all stages, the governments involved were incompetent.

So, if incompetence were enough to explain this scandal, how come the scandal didn't erupt under Bush? Bush had "gunwalker" as well. Presumably the same people there then were more or less the same now; organisations have inertia. The change of government can't have been so drastic that, in 2009, magically every agent who was working this beat imbibed great Kool-Aid jugs of stupid. And as it happens, they didn't, because we have the examples of John Dodson, Olindo “Lee” Casa, and Peter Forcelli.

If there were idiots on staff, these were new idiots, installed by their new boss. Now: why?

214 Make up your mind, buzzion.

I'm of the belief they are both.

215 The problem that the administration faces in Fast and Furious is that they didn't preselect a fall guy to take the blame for it; because they never expected to need one.


If Brian Terry hadn't died none of us would even know that any of this even existed. The government officials never expected for anyone in the public to know anything about Fast and Furious. The Mexicans getting shot would have known - but they were dead, and the ATF agents - until Terry died - were going along with the program.

It is too late for the administration to anoint a fall guy; things have spun out of control. All they can do is depend on gullible dumb asses out side of government to refuse to believe the truth; that the President of the United States and the Attorney General are guilty of felony murder.

I don't want to be the government's gullible dumb ass - who by the way, would be an accessory after the fact in felony murder - since I would be helping guilty people get away with their crime. I have no desire for the SCOAMF and the AG to get away with what they did and I have no doubt they did it - no other theory fits all the facts.


 

216 If there were idiots on staff, these were new idiots, installed by their new boss. Now: why?
Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at October 08, 2011 07:55 PM

Good point, Boulder Toilet Hobo. 

^{Who'd have ever thought I would type those words?  My mother would be so...perplexed.}

217

An Observation -

I don't suspect they thought 200 Fast & Furious guns would be implicated in Mexican murders nor the Attorney General of Mexico going off assumed script, nor calls from law enforcement officials inside the United States leveling accessory to murder charges against the administration.

218 Its also possible that that its not done making him look bad.  Its possible that there is something we do not yet know, and only if that ever is found out will Obama disown whoever he needs to.

Oh yes - 'the we don't know enough theory'. Really? We know hundreds of people are dead as a result of Fast and Furious - we know somebody caused that to happen. What else would we need to know? What color underwear he was wearing the day he did it? What he said to his wife before he did it? Come up with something reasonable that we would need to know. Seriously anything reasonable. You don't get to hide behind vagaries. It has been quite a while since Brian Terry died and this all became public - what else would we need to know that would prevent the guilty person being nailed?

Let me simply restate that in simple English for you. If you really believe that crock, I have a bridge in New York I would love to sell to you.

219 The collective corruption inside the Obama administration is neatly imprinted on e-mails and a growing number of folks who will be whistleblowing as the corruption moves beyond the pale.

220

The salient point in all of this is that over 2,000 guns were walked into Mexico unabridged and those guns have been linked to hundreds of murders inside Mexico under the Obama administration whose own Attoreny General is on record referencing the gun walking program, yet, testified to the contrary under oath before congress.

In addition, the Obama adminsitration has at every turn, attempted to circumvent information requested by congress under subpoena.

One doesn't need to have a theory to qualify the facts as presented, for the facts alone denote prima facie evidence against the Obama administration.

221 I don't suspect they thought 200 Fast & Furious guns would be implicated in Mexican murders nor the Attorney General of Mexico going off assumed script, nor calls from law enforcement officials inside the United States leveling accessory to murder charges against the administration.

Well in my opinion they expected to be able to point to US guns involved in the murder of Mexicans - that was the whole point of the exercise. They didn't expect anyone outside of government agencies to know about Fast and Furious and how the guns got there.

In my opinion the Mexican AG is off of script because she smells US Government official blood in the water.

I agree that because they didn't expect anyone to know about Fast and Furious - that they never expected to hear anyone talking about murder charges.

222

An Observation -

I agree. Well put.

223 One doesn't need to have a theory to qualify the facts as presented, for the facts alone denote prima facie evidence against the Obama administration.

Yes they do.

224

Let's try this scenario for a moment.

 It's mid-November 2008, and the Preznit-Elect, counting the favors he must repay, notes that subverting the 2nd Amendment makes many of the people he owes very happy. He tells Holder to think up something.

Holder, being not particularly smart, asks his underlings for advice.

Now we have a "???" step.

A group of the more politically strident activist types suggests that having many more LBRs, "Little Black Rifles", "assault rifles" "out there" might bump the desired violence, the gun murder rate, up enough so that outrage sweeps the nations, etc., etc.

Now we have another "???" step.

A group of the more politically strident activist types is aware of a program under GWB that might be mimiced; the predecessor to Gunrunner. Make a few changes and instant happiness. A change is to let "certain people", inelegible to buy guns, buy guns, with the expectation that these guns will appear in crimes in the US.

The problem is that there are already plenty of LBRs incirculation, but no joy yet, and getting local dealers to work in such a deal would at the very least leave a lot of loose ends. But this idea hits the streets anyway, in the Chicago area, and elsewhere ... Hope for Change.

Yet another "???" step. But this time, a new activist or two are included.

There's violence in Mexico, bad violence, drug cartel violence. Gun shops all along the border report attempted buys and rejections, One of the new idiots is stoned and sees a plan ... only no one else is told ... let these border buys happen, and see if things happen correctly.

Side thread:

In at least one case, a supervisor tells a field agent to cease monitoring ... the agent persists ... the supervisor tells him again ... how many times did this sort of situation happen, and who gave the supervisor his orders?  Perhaps yet another command from the DoJ/WH from yet another source? Who? The supervisor knows, or his boss knows, or his boss ...

Are there any other agents with similar experiences?

I recall seeing a graphic here on Ace within the last few weeks, showing the paths of many of the walked guns. The graphic showed primarily/only the ones from Arizona, mostly phoenix, IIRC. Is the problem of supervisor interference specific only to the AZ/Phoenix area? This could localize the source of a big part of the operation.

Back to the main thread:

A problem appears: the "desired violence" is happening ... in Mexico.

SoS Hillary! makes an interesting remark, something to the effect of 90% of the guns in Mexico are from the US. This turns out to be not true, but it takes some research. Would Hillary! out-and-out lie, or would she use numbers given to her, implicitly by someone who knew ... perhaps someone who had high-level knowledge of F&F, and knew about the number of weapons that had walked by the time Hill made her claim. Holder or one of his deputies, with Holder's knowledge, could be the source, and this would be quite legitimate.

But Hill was wrong ... why? A political gamble, or bad data, or someone betting on the come?

A big problem happens: Agent Brian Terry is killed, in the US, and a couple of the weapons are at the scene of the crime.

At this point, everything starts coming apart.

We start finding out that the target of one government agency is the informant of another agency, only no one is communicating the information. Apparently, no one told the US consulate in Mexico City. Apparently, the Mexican Government was never told ...

For these reasons, I see F&F/Gunrunner as one idea that should have been flushed, only to grow, morph and split, and I suspect that either no one knows the full extent, or the splits were allowed and someone really is in charge ... but who?

Enquiring minds want to know.

225 After H2Ogate we were led to believe that investigative journalism saved the nation from a corrupt and potentially tyrannical President.

And the fifth columnists in the fourth estate have never failed to remind us that they have our back.

_{so any minute now.......}

226

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 08:33 PM (ylhEn)

< Theories are not required to obtain convictions with the evidence so far in place.

227

Oh yes - 'the we don't know enough theory'. Really? We know hundreds of people are dead as a result of Fast and Furious - we know somebody caused that to happen. What else would we need to know? What color underwear he was wearing the day he did it? What he said to his wife before he did it? Come up with something reasonable that we would need to know. Seriously anything reasonable. You don't get to hide behind vagaries. It has been quite a while since Brian Terry died and this all became public - what else would we need to know that would prevent the guilty person being nailed?

Let me simply restate that in simple English for you. If you really believe that crock, I have a bridge in New York I would love to sell to you.

Posted by: An Observation at October 08, 2011 08:24 PM (ylhEn)

Did I say "we don't know enough" dumbass?  No, I said its possible that we don't know everything yet, and only once that comes out will Obama dismiss whoever.  To fire someone for this would draw even more attention to it which is the exact opposite of what they have been trying to do. 

And as for what else we might need to know?  Ask Darryl Issa

By the way I am very interested in hearing your explanation that how if Bush had found out that his nominee for Treasury Secretary had cheated on his taxes that Bush would have withdrawn his nomination and so Obama would do the exact same thing.

228 Took me time to read all the comments, but I really enjoyed the article. It proved to be Very helpful to me and I am sure to all the commenters here! ItÂ’s always nice when you can not only be informed, but also entertained!

229 I hope you never stop!  This is one of the best blogs Ive ever read.  Youve got some mad skill here, man.  I just hope that you dont lose your style because youre definitely one of the coolest bloggers out there.  Please keep it up because the internet needs someone like you spreading the word.

230 Ace is giving Zero waaaaaaayyyyyyy too much benefit of the doubt on this.  I have no doubt at all that an Alinsky apostle is willing to let scores of mexicans and even Americans die to enact draconian gun control.  He must be stopped, incompetent or not.

231 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

232 "We're being told we have to choose between two competing theories: "criminal incompetence" and "unthinkable corruption". I have a serious question - Why can't it be both?"

Welcome to the party, pal!

When I encounter two 'seemingly' opposing views/opinions/perspectives/ideas, I stop. I hold both ideas up as clearly stated as possible. THEN, I construct a reality where both are correct and exist at the same time. You would be amazed at the number of times that thought process solves very big problems.

I prefer to describe this 'administration' as weapons grade stupid.

233 Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! However, how could we communicate?

234 Steevy I so agree with you.

235 It was always about destroying the 2nd Amendment. Get rid of that one and the rest of the Constitution is toast. And the regime knows it. Kirsten Powers not so much. Threepers do, however.

236 There are so much to learn from your post here, Uma, well done.

237  It's mid-November 2008, and the Preznit-Elect, counting the favors he must repay, notes that subverting the 2nd Amendment makes many of the people he owes very happy. He tells Holder to think up something.

OK I can stop your whole chain of reasoning right here. The ATF policy had to be changed from the Bush era policy. A flunky at DOJ (including Holder) can't change the policy of a federal agency. Only the President can do that - he is the only one with the authority. Or didn't you know that? The President sets the policy, the agencies execute the President's policy. Who's policy do you think they are executing - mine, yours, some GS - 9 clerk?

No  flunky at DOJ or ATF is responsible for this mess.

This came straight from the top.

238  No, I said its possible that we don't know everything yet, and only once that comes out will Obama dismiss whoever. 

Would you care to place a bet on that being correct?

It is simply not possible for there to be some substantial bit of information missing that would have allowed some hypothetical person at the GS level to have altered the Policy of the ATF.

Let us assume for example that this is all a CIA plot to arm one faction against another in Mexico.

That can't allow some unknown GS rating to change ATF policy can it? Particularly since only the President has the authority to alter the policy of a federal agency. Do you believe that some GS level government employee was impersonating the president and thus stealing his authority? Why would a CIA plot keep somebody from identifying the culprit? Why would DOJ be stonewalling if it was a CIA plot?

The DOJ's problem is they know who the culprits are: Obama and Holder. Why else would they be stonewalling if not to protect those two?



 

239

OK I can stop your whole chain of reasoning right here. The ATF policy had to be changed from the Bush era policy. A flunky at DOJ (including Holder) can't change the policy of a federal agency. Only the President can do that - he is the only one with the authority. ...

... but do you really think JEF has the education experience wisdom knowledge intelligence something? I think, based on his work performance for the past 30 years or so, he had to have someone give him a plan ...

... Or didn't you know that? The President sets the policy, the agencies execute the President's policy. Who's policy do you think they are executing - mine, yours, some GS - 9 clerk?

1. See previous response

2. Do you really think that any President comes up with all or even most policy? 

--> Holder, being not particularly smart, asks his underlings for advice.

My guess is that he proposed a small plan to JEF ... that grew ... and neither he nor JEF nor Jarrett, nor anyone else, saw reason to bother with controlling it.

240 When the policy of NASA was changed to "outreach to Muslims" from "manned space exploration" that came directly from President Obama - the Director of NASA lacks the authority to change the policy of the agency he directs.

The same is true of the ATF - nobody at the ATF or DOJ has the authority to alter the policy of the ATF - that can only come from the president.

241

I assumed that my abbreviated posts would be sufficiently clear to all.

However, "My guess is that he proposed a small plan to JEF" was intended to imply that JEF then approved this plan and Holder had his people run with it.

Much like "It's mid-November 2008, and the Preznit-Elect, counting the favors he must repay, notes that subverting the 2nd Amendment makes many of the people he owes very happy. He tells Holder to think up something." I assumed that all readers would assume that whatever Holder came up with, JEF approved it, so I didn't need to type that conclusion.

242 My guess is that he proposed a small plan to JEF ... that grew ... and neither he nor JEF nor Jarrett, nor anyone else, saw reason to bother with controlling it.

Does not matter whether it was incompetence or evil on the part of the President - the buck stops there. It is felony murder whether it is depraved indifference or deliberate evil. When you commit a felony and somebody dies as a result you are guilty of felony murder - what you intended does not matter - end of discussion.


But ignoring all of that - let us look at the ripples that spread out from your scenario and compare them to reality.

According to you the President of the United States alters the policy of a federal agency dealing with firearms and explosives without the slightest concern that the alteration will have any consequences for him.

Let us assume that he considered this basically a fraternity prank.

Then people start dying as a result of his actions - there is no possibility he wouldn't know about that - he gets briefed on exactly that sort of thing every single morning - his advisers would be aware of what he had done - do you think they would have said nothing to him about it? If it was a 'prank' gone bad - he stops it immediately and alters policy back - hoping nobody learns what he did.

According to your scenario we have a President who is blissfully unaware that one of his policy decisions has the potential to bite him in the ass. Would you be that blissfully unaware? What makes you think he would be?

You see, your scenario can't attach to reality properly. That means it can't be real.

Here is what does fit with reality: Obama sees a chance to make a policy change at a federal agency that will kill many birds with one stone. 1. It will advance his gun control agenda. 2.It will create chaos in Mexico sending illegal aliens fleeing over the borders to punish the red states for not voting for him. 3. The long term aspect of having heavily armed  thugs with guns marauding into red states means he can push for his internal security force as large, as well trained and as well funded as the US military (his brown shirts). 4. It exactly fits his skill set as a community organizer and a Chicago thug politician.

If he succeeds the US is done for as a free country and he has achieved the change he wanted.

He reasonably expects to get away with all of this and he would have if Brian Terry had not been killed. He sees all of this as an acceptable risk if it can achieve its goals.

He didn't stop the policy until the shit hit the fan - that says deliberate and intentional action - not some minor plan that nobody was watching while it wandered out of control.

243 Life is movement. Only a lot of movement, the body's various functions in order to get the most play. Therefore, apart from our daily busy, do not forget to exercise movement, can only be good.
Cartier bracelet replica

244 Some of you are making me kinda nervous bending over so  far backwards making excuses for these thugs.  I feel you have not been doing your homework.  These dedicated crooks have stolen the march on you,  The Long march.  Like  I said, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and smells like a duck........

245

Unthinkable corruption executed with criminal incompetence.

I like this area very much.

246  It just goes to show how stupid they are. We knew they were venal, all one must do is look at the history of the "Chicago way" and the Rich pardon. This shows us what crooks they are.

 Their stupidity is proven by them expecting the ATF and the FBI, plus the DEA and other lae enforcement agencies to go along with this. Yes, a buch of Feds of all sorts should have their badges, guns and desks shoved up their asses. A lot more of those Feds are plain ol' cops. They got into law enforcement for the same reason guys like me did, they wanted to protect and defend their society. I stayed in my little rural county when I had the chance to go Federal. There was my home and my family, a rural lifestyle that I love and the fact that I had become an expert in a specific part of the job that enabled me to pretty much pick my hours.

 A lot of young LEOs go Federal for the money and the excitement. Not many of them would stand for this mess. It was only a matter of time before some of them squawked. Sure enough, some did. I suspect that Congressman Issa has plenty more of these guys on ice, waiting so that he can drip, drip, drip this out all during the political season.

247 Looks like I picked the wrong week to gp on vacation. I think the regulars know where I am on this.

248
ErikW@28:
I'm surprised they haven't armed Mara Salvatrucha with AK's in urban areas yet.

Wellll....
Actually, it appears that guns walked via "Operation Castaway" (which was run out of the Tampa, FL, office) went to Honduras, where some of them did indeed end up in the hands of MS-13.
Additionally, the Indiana operation now being called "Gangwalker" involved the ATF forcing gun dealers to sell to fuckwads who trafficked the guns to streetgangs in Chicago. (But of course!)
If you ask me? Obama's arming his "army."

249 Mr Pink @41:

A long time ago in another life I attended the national conference of the Society of Professional Journalists, the professional society for newspaper reporters. In one-on-one conversations and in small groups, I confronted some of these people about their liberal bias. I'll never forget one smug little bitch in particular. In her news reports she always referred to those who favor legal abortion by the label they they prefer for themselves, "pro-choice" (a positive, feel-good sounding term). But she never called those who oppose legal abortion by the label they prefer for themselves, "pro-life." She always called them "anti-abortion" or even "anti-choice." When I pointed out the discrepancy, and asked how she squared that with her duty as a journalist to be even-handed/fair/unbiased, she replied that, on the contrary, her duty was not to be even-handed, but to portray anti-abortion people in the very worst possible light, because they are EVIL and must be brought down.

250 "An Observation" @ 220:

You are spot-on.

It was deliberate (that's the evil part).
They thought they wouldn't get caught (that's the stupidity part).

They are accomplices to murder, conspirators, traitors and who knows what else. Try these bastards for treason and then hang 'em high.

251 An Observation@64:
We have a well known Furniture store owner here in Houston who has made a substantial fortune by acting like any average person could easily outsmart him.

Would that be the manic Gallery Furniture "will save! you! MONEEEEY!" guy?

Just curious -- cuz I lived in Houston for many years -- moved away 20 years ago, and will be so amazed if that same guy is still doing those hokey ads!!!

252

"My guess is that he proposed a small plan to JEF ... that grew ... and neither he nor JEF nor Jarrett, nor anyone else, saw reason to bother with controlling it."

Does not matter whether it was incompetence or evil on the part of the President - the buck stops there. It is felony murder whether it is depraved indifference or deliberate evil. When you commit a felony and somebody dies as a result you are guilty of felony murder - what you intended does not matter - end of discussion.

True, but not relevant to this thread, and possibly not relevant to the WH decision process. Did JEF commit a felony? We shall see what Darryl Issa and Friends have to say.

But ignoring all of that - let us look at the ripples that spread out from your scenario and compare them to reality.

According to you the President of the United States alters the policy of a federal agency dealing with firearms and explosives without the slightest concern that the alteration will have any consequences for him.

No, those are not my words. Try cut-and paste.

F&F seems clearly separate from and an exception to, whatever policy JEF specified for the DoJ, ATF, etc., unless you are making the argument that F&F WAS done according to JEF's new policy for those Federal agencies. This is possible, but I don't think so, since agents bucked the F&F orders.

Let us assume that he considered this basically a fraternity prank.

Then people start dying as a result of his actions - there is no possibility he wouldn't know about that - he gets briefed on exactly that sort of thing every single morning - his advisers would be aware of what he had done - do you think they would have said nothing to him about it? If it was a 'prank' gone bad - he stops it immediately and alters policy back - hoping nobody learns what he did.

According to your scenario we have a President who is blissfully unaware that one of his policy decisions has the potential to bite him in the ass. Would you be that blissfully unaware? What makes you think he would be?

You're assuming that there really is a Dr. Evil behind F&F. You might be correct, but that is yet unproven, hence my alternative scenario. You assume that "he considered this basically a fraternity prank" and post so. I don't, in this scenario. I speculate, as I posted, that things began to morph and split ...

To examine your interpretation of my posting:

 "Then people start dying as a result of his actions" - Whose actions? After a couple of splits and morphs, who really made what we suspect is an indirect action that led to deaths? JEF might be responsible, but looking at the decisions he and his immediate advisors, and even their underlings, made, no decision that could lead to deaths can be found. Again, whose actions?

 "there is no possibility he wouldn't know about that" - Hillary's claim about deaths due to US guns was shown to be bullshit ... JEF knew about deaths in Mexico, so did everyone else, but when was the link to F&F guns made? Then there are JEF's close advisors ... is there a possibility that one of them co-opted or convinced someone down in the DoJ/ATF to follow their secret orders, directly from the Preznit? This sounds like the Chicago Way ... and JEF would never know ... or would have strong plausible deniability ... and no link to a felony.

 "he gets briefed on exactly that sort of thing every single morning" - Ulsterman has a post or two on JEF's method of briefings, and his level of attention (while he's wtching his hugetastic Tv (or TVs). Is Ulsterman, an uncorroborated source (who seems to be calling upcoming events right) correct? I no longer dismiss his words out of hand.

Given JEF's past performance (lots of passes, no serious jobs, none ever) and current behavior, I expect JEF to not breif well (didn't Harry Reid confirm this).

 "his advisers would be aware of what he had done"  Who, Val Jarrett? Axelturf? The rest of his Chicago mob? Consider the reality that is Chicago ... one of these people may have motive for keeping his actions quiet ...

You see, your scenario can't attach to reality properly.

Postulating a rhetorical question or two, which is all that you did, is not proof. While I do not claim that my scenario IS THE correct answer, so far I've made a better case than you.

 That means it can't be real.

... only if you make enough of a case that it isn't real.

Here is what does fit with reality: Obama sees a chance to make a policy change at a federal agency that will kill many birds with one stone. 1. It will advance his gun control agenda. 2.It will create chaos in Mexico sending illegal aliens fleeing over the borders to punish the red states for not voting for him. 3. The long term aspect of having heavily armed  thugs with guns marauding into red states means he can push for his internal security force as large, as well trained and as well funded as the US military (his brown shirts). 4. It exactly fits his skill set as a community organizer and a Chicago thug politician.

Let's analyze this.

1. Agree.

2. Probably agree, but this is at least extremely close to an act of war. I doubt any of his immediate circle have enough collective testosterone to do this openly, but maybe. There would be a lot more pushback from the rank-and-file if this were open agency policy. But if F&F was sooper sekret, or maybe something sufficiently divided, or just got loose, then no.

3. If caught, this is an act of treason. See #2.

4. Maybe, but JEF was never the type to rouse people to open violence.

  Your ripples do not fit very well

If he succeeds the US is done for as a free country and he has achieved the change he wanted.

He reasonably expects to get away with all of this and he would have if Brian Terry had not been killed. He sees all of this as an acceptable risk if it can achieve its goals.

He didn't stop the policy until the shit hit the fan - that says deliberate and intentional action - not some minor plan that nobody was watching while it wandered out of control.

What this says is that once the truth became public, JEF ordered a halt to all plans that he knew about. This included anyone doing their own thing. And it gives JEF's cloest advisors a chance to call any operatives they co-opted and tell them to halt too.