1 I give a shit.

2 human rubbish

3 this is what happens when pubbies govern as conservatives; the base gets fired up and a lot of squishes come over.

4

And if I may loosely quote Evan Sayet, "'Academic' is a well known term for being useless, as in, "It's all academic, let's get some real work done."

5 It's the Wellstone memorial all over again. Keep it up, dumb asses!

6 this is what happens when pubbies govern as conservatives; the base gets fired up and a lot of squishes come over. Posted by: Uncle Jed

Well, at least in the fiscal matters.

7 10,000 union thugs with lead pipes and ax handles vs One Honey Badger who doesn't give a shit = Honey Badger only slightly inconvenienced

8 Are all the women in Wisconsin named Heather?

9 We have said it before. Any time you go down where the unions are demonstrating you need to take a crowd of knuckledraggers or a baseball bat.

They only understand one thing and that is force. So best thing, take a honey badger 'cause he don't give a shit,

10 "I saw the reality for myself, and we have both decided to stay actively involved. We will not trust or rely on any media to deliver primary information or facts. It really is true: there is biased reporting and organized, liberal oppression and hostility for all other viewpoints. I'm just little nobody wife, mom, and teacher in small town Wisconsin, and I experienced it." No one would have heard these words in 1995. Except a honey badger, but he wouldn't give a shit.

11 The unions are their own worse enemy here.  More people will see their self-serving and disgusting behavior and despise them for it. 

Unfortunate that this woman's husband couldn't whip the ass of the thug who pushed his wife. 

12 The left will figure out a way to "compromise" with regard to PEU's...they will  even sound rational for a few seconds as some publically agree we can no longer afford the PEU's platinum benefits and retirement plans. 

Then they will transition seamlessly and straight-faced to arguing these types of situations make programs like Obamacare even more necessary and "right".

The R leadership better be ready with the retort, because this will happen...it's who the left is.

13

If some asshat had shoved my wife like that there'd be mayhem alright. If I controlled my temper at least he wouldn't get gutted.

While I agree that in general the Marxists and the MBM want violence from conservatives so they can do a "see I told ya so" moment on TV, NO ONE SHOVES MY WIFE WITHOUT A TRIP TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM DIRECTLY AFTERWARDS.

I'd really like to field flying squads to these things armed with cattle prods and kbars. There's be a 100 foot wide open area with stunned bodies all over the landscape along with some cracked heads and broken extremeties. I am SO over and done with putting up with these jerks. Just like the damn towelheads, if you bend over they'll shove it in you. It's time to return the favor, in spades (pardon the pun).

14 why are politics so vicious among academics?

Because the evil-human catastrophic global warming research money is going to run out?

Oh.  You were talking about K-12...

Because the evil-human catastrophic global warming poster money is going to run out.  And because the state wants to stop paying for abortion counseling for 10 year olds and condoms to be forced on 2nd graders.

But, there's still the safe-school czar and fisting lessons for kindergartners (fisting is age-appropriate for kindergartners, since they make fists all the time).

But, as Gov. Walker tries to stop the teachers' union from stealing money straight out of every teacher's check, whether the teacher wants to contribute or not (like taxing ...) then the teachers' union is going to have to start mugging people on the streets to make up for the lost cash.  These riots in Madison are practice for beating the crap out of innocent people and then whining about it.

15

The sad part is that my dad who is a vet firefighter of 26 years has become a libtard overnight because he believes what he reads in the Columbus Dispatch about House Bill 5.

He's convinced Wall Street Republicans are out to steal his pension and I don't even bother arguing anymore because he's a stubborn SOB.

I owe another libtard an ass-beating because of this.

16 Wow.  I'm glad there was no violence but I was half-expecting it given the general thuggish nature of unions.

17 The union agitators probably were not teachers. Most likely they were union thugs imported for that very purpose.

18 AoSHQ mascot ought to be the Honey Badger.

19

In that situation, if they so much as touched me, I'd go down on the ground and scream my head off.

20 Ahhh, the labor unions--If they can't convince you with their lies, they'll simply shove you around until you agree.  Democracy and civility!

21 The union agitators probably were not teachers. Most likely they were union thugs imported for that very purpose.

Posted by: Vic at February 20, 2011 07:58 PM (M9Ie6)

The teachers were cheering the union thugs on from behind, though, and threatening to sic their animals on anyone who looked at them funny.

At least they haven't bitten any fingers off ... so far.  When they get hungry, though ...

22

He's convinced Wall Street Republicans are out to steal his pension and I don't even bother arguing anymore because he's a stubborn SOB.

What "Wall Street Republicans"?  There are no "Wall Street Republicans".

Amazing what people believe.  It's bigotry, really.

23 The Jig is Up!

Breitbart behind it all.

24 Amazing what people believe.  It's bigotry, really.

I'd go more with an inability to do fifth grade math, but maybe it's just me.

25 Union Thug:  If you won't bow to the power of our persuasion, then you'll crumble under the persuasion of our power.

Scumbag teacher hiding behind: Yeah!  Perswasion of are powers.  The children needs my smarts to learn them good.

26 That would be tough, you know they were trying to get some beatings going down so their asscomplices in the mfm would have some ammo to work with.  Still how sweet would it be to have a straight up rumble on the steps of the capitol building just like chuck from St. Paul was saying.

27

I'd go more with an inability to do fifth grade math, but maybe it's just me.

Union organizers depend on this inability, to convince people to join.  (There have been several attempts to 'organize' my workplace over the last decade...)

28 Move along MF'er nothing to see here.

Got that?

Oh, by the way one of our dumb fuck womyn got her tits rubbed in Egypt and had a organism.  Front page news!!

29 A union boss was headed to a rally in Madison when he heard a whisper from behind a dumpster. "One Honey Badger is tougher than 10 union goons" The union boss immediately sent 10 goons around the dumpster to take care of business. There was a great clamor and the sounds of hand to hand fighting, and then.....silence. The voice chimes in again. "One Honey Badger is tougher than 100 union goons" Furious, the union boss sent 100 goons around the dumpster and again the sounds of hand to hand fighting and men screaming in pain. And again, silence. "One Honey Badger is tougher than 1000 union goons.......you scab" The enraged union boss calls in favors from other union locals to bring in a thousand goons to assault the dumpster. A huge battle commences, with blood and guts everywhere. Eventually, one greviously wounded union goon comes crawling back from behind the dumpster and with his dying words tells the union boss "Don't send any more men, it's a trap. There's actually TWO of them."

30

There are a fair number of useful idiots who believe that somehow this is a case of fat cat Republicans out to steal money from the working man and reward their big business cronies.  The foolishness is strong in many. (don't get me wrong: I don't trust Republicans either, but these idiots still believe that Democrats are "for" them...spit).

and I know of some people who have received threats...the unions are being very serious about this; it could end very badly indeed  (my biggest fear is that someone will get killed...I hope the Tea Party people are not taking their kids to these events anymore; I wish those school kids were completely out of the picture and it angers me that they were ever bussed into this).

31 Oh man...if someone pushed my wife like that, there'd be a dead union thug on the ground, bleeding out from his eye sockets.

32 Ok, what's the deal with the "honey badger" stuff?

33

What "Wall Street Republicans"?  There are no "Wall Street Republicans".

Amazing what people believe.  It's bigotry, really.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 20, 2011 08:01 PM (BvBKY)

It's the fucking IAFF that sends in sympathetic Lt's or Captains to brainwash them.

Goddamn fucking Communist union assholes.

34 33 Ok, what's the deal with the "honey badger" stuff?

Posted by: unknown jane at February 20, 2011 08:10 PM (5/yRG)

Previous Thread

oh and

Honey Badger Dont Give A Shit

35 @ EC: if it bleeds, we can kill it.

36 It was awful.  He smelled just like the camel I rode at the pyramids and I told him to stop over and over again, then to make it all worse, he wanted my cell phone number.  I was so afraid I gave it to him.

Why hasn't he called?  Did he write it down wrong.

God, I love the smell of camel dung in the morning.

37 36 @ EC: if it bleeds, we can kill it.

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 08:11 PM (3duwi)

I aint got time to bleed

38 Contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor is a crime governed by state laws, which vary by state. Generally, the crime consists of someone knowingly persuading, inducing, enticing or encouraging such a child or youth to engage in actions that would constitute a violation of federal or state law or a municipal or local ordinance. Local laws should be consulted for applicability in your area.

39 36 @ EC: if it bleeds, we can kill it.
Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 08:11 PM (3duwi)

You got that fuckin' right!  I'm am sick and tired of these union jagoffs assaulting people in broad daylight, thinking they can keep pushing people they don't know around.  I want to beat these fuckwits down.

Sorry for the rage, but I can't take much more reading about these sisterfuckers.

40
Shameless & Unaccountable


When we can figure out a way to shame the Left and make them accountable for their behavior, then we can grind them into the dust.

41

Can the Wisconson governor declare the missing dems AWOL or derelict in their duty and appoint replacements?

42 If you like your Honey Badger you can keep it
If not you're gettin him anyway
Honey Badger don't give a shit

43

That account was hard to read. I wonder if we can have something like this in Colorado?

Currently our new governor Hickenlooper has been pretty quiet. That seems to be his M.O.; when there were racial murders in Denver last year (link on my name), Hick stayed quiet then too. I bring this up not to bring up race (not that much of a factor in Colorado, which ain't Louisiana, or western Houston); but to bring up that Hick is a go-along-to-get-along sorta guy, even in the face of evil; even in the face of an evil which he could do something about. Public employees are a good deal harder to deal with than are a few random Denver gangstas.

Someone else brought up here that our unions have got themselves a cushy deal of their own (which I didn't know): PERA, the Public Employee Retirement Association. A little websearching (Bing: I know, I know) pulled up that SEIU is very interested in getting into the PERA board. I think that Coloradan working families - I mean, the families that actually work for a living - could stand to get interested too.

Hickenlooper sure as fuck isn't going to fight for us. But I'm guessing he won't fight against us either. He's a pussy, too busy making nice and shopping around his "bottom up" shpiel.

44

What "Wall Street Republicans"?  There are no "Wall Street Republicans".

Amazing what people believe.  It's bigotry, really.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 20, 2011 08:01 PM (BvBKY)

You can thank the ex-governor of Ohio, Twitch Strickland, for making that an all-purpose buzzword within the state.  Of course it's ludicrous but the dense cocksucker ran ads with that against Kasich round the clock and, like everything else no matter how inane, if you hear it enough times it will stick with you.  Btw, Twitch was up in Madison helping out his union buds since he no longer has any fucking responsibility other than to live in whatever glorified crossroads north of Athens is unfortunate enough to have him as the village idiot.

45 In that situation, if they so much as touched me, I'd go down on the ground and scream my head off.

I think in this situation I'd recommend rolling on the ground shitting and vomiting.

Cops at a union rally want to murder teacrackaz, not help them, so you have to make them take you away—but not away to beat you to death.

No one punches a shit-and-barf-covered guy twice. Not if he's well-covered.

46

When the going gets tough

The Honey Badgers don't give a shit.

47 IllTemperedCur at February 20, 2011 08:08 PM (9Lm5R) Heh! Nice to that one updated. I heard in 20+ years ago in the context of Arab military vs. Israeli. Cordially...

48 42

Can the Wisconson governor declare the missing dems AWOL or derelict in their duty and appoint replacements?

Posted by: Ohio Dan at February 20, 2011 08:15 PM (EH4cc)

I think Kemp was doing some ranting about this earlier, Ive seen so many things, I dont know what the real options are.  Except ram everything non budget related thru while there gone...can they work on redistricting too?

49 Posted by: Rick at February 20, 2011 08:17 PM (j3pEj) I first heard it in the Special Forces/Taliban context. The old jokes are the best jokes.

50

There are two Wisconsins:

The Democrats are in the Badger State.

The Republicans are in the Honey Badger State.

51

There are two Wisconsins:

I concur.

52 Are all the women in Wisconsin named Heather?

Posted by: Tami at February 20, 2011 07:53 PM (VuLos)

Nope. I'm Tami.

53 If one defended oneself, or a loved one at one these "union portests"  it would be blasted 24/7 that some "tea bagger" had become violent.  With carefully edited videos, and enraged SEIU members, in tears,  threatening endless lawsuits against the evil perpertratar, the police departent, the state, the govenor, and of course George Bush. 

54 35 Ah, that thread wasn't loading on my screen at first.  You know, they are kinda cute: like a cross between a badger, a skunk, and an otter (maybe some mongoose).

55 Honey Badger > Wisconsin Badger

Just sayin

56 I'd go more with an inability to do fifth grade math, but maybe it's just me.  Posted by: Circa

Not an inability per se but willful ignorance.

If you were to ask most Lefties about a hypothetical situation of personal finances, most would be able to answer, "Yes, you can not spend more than you earn without serious consequences to follow."

There's a mechanism that Lefties engage in the discussion any larger context issue, a +100 'Cloak of Resistance to Reason,' if you will.

So any discussion about government expenditures outside of Law n' order and the military, the Leftie will necessarily regurgitate some invidious comparison (tu quoque) or spurious argument.

Leftism is fundamentally a secular religion; it's a faith that no reason need intrude or suffer.

57 What's the status on the doctors who have been handing out "get out of school/work free" cards? Is the state licensing board going to step in a do its duty to review their behavior, the violation of ethical conduct? Is the state AG going to investigate for fraud? At a minimum, disciplinary action is warranted. Some licenses surely need to be suspended.

58

Well that experience has led to these two independent voters, who have been fiscally conservative but socially divided on many issues, to a new understanding of how politics, unions, and the media work.

Congratulations for finally seeing some of the light. I'd be interested to know if they know that their "social issues" are framed by the same groups for the same reasons. It's all one for the same purpose.

59 kinda disappointed I didn't see a single, "i'm going to teabag every single union member' sign....

60 I am even more of a mind that Gov Walker needs to get this bill passed and then fire 12,000 teachers, on top of it.  The unions have decided to push back extra hard on this, and the dem lawmakers have decided to act like 2 year olds, and the teachers have made apparent what despicable pieces of shit they are.  THey should feel the consequences of their actions.

Meanwhile, inTrade has the dem Senators in Washington running away to hide in Venezuela trading at 83!

61 Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Honey Badger don't give a fuck

62 The National libtard marxist movement has proclaimed to these foolish people that this is the hill to die on. Little do they know that the elites will walk on their bodies to the next hill.

63 54 Plus it's what they are expecting.

64 kinda disappointed I didn't see a single, "i'm going to teabag every single union member' sign.... Posted by: hoittytoitty

Honey badger not only has more class, he does not care to proffer a segment of human excrement.

65

Can the Wisconson governor declare the missing dems AWOL or derelict in their duty and appoint replacements?

Posted by: Ohio Dan at February 20, 2011 08:15 PM (EH4cc)

Didn't the Gov send the Highway Patrol after one of those assholes?

Laws are being toyed with and someone needs to step up. This is a fucking joke.

 

66

Take union thuggery add some demorat buggery and you got yourself one angry Honey Badger.  Honey Badger doesn't give a shat.

67 Our Tax Dollars at Work, oh wait,they aren't working, they playing hookey. I wonder if any high school students have figured out that if they lie, cheat, or skip school these teachers have given up any right to criticize them. The more smart ass of the students would be in a good position to taunt them with this.

68

When we can figure out a way to shame the Left

That's just it. Can't be done.

69 Gov. Walker just needs to stay firm and let the budget repair bill situation stand as is and start passing non-budgetary legislation which does not require the full quorum while the Dems are AWOL.

The Dems are digging themselves deeper and deeper into a political grave with each passing moment.

70

The WI state senate president said they will start working on non-revenue bills on Tuesday.  Non-revenue bills only require a simple-majority quorum.

71

When we can figure out a way to shame the Left

They sincerely and truly believe that the ends justify the means. Think of  the great murderers of the 20th century--same thing. There is nothing to awful to do to ensure their socialist utopia. The fact that they CANNOT grasp is that if you destroy the producers of the wealth that there is no more wealth--for anybody.

72 Gov. Walker just needs to stay firm and let the budget repair bill situation stand as is and start passing non-budgetary legislation which does not require the full quorum while the Dems are AWOL.

They could have a lot of fun with this, I bet. No point in letting a perfectly good crisis go to waste.

73 Off, filthy sock.

74
Fire them all.
When the teachers loose this battle How do you think they will feel about giving their best to educate the taxpayer's children?
The class rooms will be tainted with the discontent of the entire education system leaving them to take it out on the students by way of unpredictable and shoddy work. The students are on the loosing end of this battle. And not to mention the new round of leftist brainwashing they will no doubt endure. 

75 Some lefty POS puts a hand on my wife and one of us is going out feet first. I know, sounds tough on a blog but I really could see it happening.

76 Can't we appoint honey badger in place of these Dem douchebags? Cause you know, honey badger don't give a shit.

77 Union = = threat of violence.

78

I'd love to see Leinenkugles (Wisconsin microbrew) come up with a Honey Badger Lager.

Kind of like Old Rasputin Imperial Russian Stout but with a touch of honey.

79 @ Dagny. so what GOOD does it do anyone if they can't figure it out???

All I see conservatives doing is being reactionary to liberals. It took 3 days for a tea party rally to form.

They're permitted free race card passes, free godwin's law waivers, they get away with just about anything.

Is there an Alinsky analogue to promoting conservative principles? We can't afford to be reactionary as we are.

80 77 Can't we appoint honey badger in place of these Dem douchebags? Cause you know, honey badger don't give a shit.

Posted by: tcn at February 20, 2011 08:37 PM (DjPot)

Only if it was a Republican honey badger, would YOU want to vote against one of those?

81 All around the world we are seeing the Reagan Strategy play out. Obama does not understand what is happening because he is ignorant and a socialist. He cannot comment or respond because the situation is too fluid. Plus he doesn't understand the concept of Freedom and Capitalism. Oh by the way I heard that Princess Michelle and her Little  Rats are on vacation in Vail. Gee, I thought the Messiah (Her Pathetic Excuse for a Man -- Husband) said we all need to cut back on vacations? Again our Manchild in Chief has a double standard...Enjoy it while you can Obama for Wisconsin is only the beginning ....The era of Reagan is not over, but the nightmare of "The One" is !!!!!

82

Nope. I'm Tami.

Posted by: tcn at February 20, 2011 08:21 PM (DjPot)

Ha! 

Great names in Wisconsin.

83 Walker has said that this still just a first step, that much more needs to be done to get the budget balanced. I think he made a mistake in not taking the police & firefighter unions too. I've already read too many descriptions of the cops not lifting a damn finger.
 
Still, Walker is doing more than any other elected leader right now.

84

Gov. Walker just needs to stay firm...

Not a problem!

85 The uglier this gets (on the union side), the more I am convinced Wisconsin goes red in 2012 unless we seriously fuck up (don't put that past our party). As I have said before- if we win Wisconsin in 2012 we absolutely win the election. We have never won WI without also carrying virtually all of the "purple states" that are far more conservative since the Southern Realignment, so even if Obama can rally illegal alien voting in the southwest, he loses terribly.

86

To hell with the husband, I wish the wife would have taken this guys balls and tied them in a knot.

Either the cops are complicit or scared. I'm betting on scared.

87

Best defense: have lots of disk aspace, and trake lots of video.

Granted, a thug may try to take your camera, so ideal defesne is to have a camera that uploads to your Youtube account quickly: The thugs can't take it away from Cyberspace.

88 so even if Obama can rally illegal alien voting in the southwest, he loses terribly.

Posted by: CAC at February 20, 2011 08:41 PM (lV4Fs)

Hi! We'll be there too!

89

I'd love to see Leinenkugles (Wisconsin microbrew) come up with a Honey Badger Lager. Posted by: AmishDude

Leinenkugels

Hmm, a mead sounds interesting. Stouts really don't need anything extra. They're pretty stout by themselves.

90

Unions  = Scut Farkus, slushball thrower

Taxpayers = Ralphie Parker, slushball recipient

91 Princess Michelle and her Little  Rats

Not cool. At all. Leave the little girls the fuck out of it.

92

76 And then you get the crap beaten out of you (because in a fight, numbers count), and they get nastier with your wife, and then you and your wife will be branded violent reich winging teabaggers with your pictures posted all over the MFM.  That's how it would go down.

Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor....sometimes it really is better to do the unexpected thing.

93 91

Unions  = Scut Farkus, slushball thrower

Taxpayers = Ralphie Parker, slushball recipient

Posted by: Count de Monet at February 20, 2011 08:43 PM (XBM1t)

O = ralphies brother  (he laid there like a slug it was his only defense)

94

Hmm, a mead sounds interesting. Stouts really don't need anything extra. They're pretty stout by themselves.

Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 20, 2011 08:43 PM (S59+B)

Yeah, but I think the Honey Badger Stout needs something to go with the theme.

But hey, I don't give a shit.

95 BTW, it's Moochelle, not Michelle.  WTF?

96 If the WI Gop starts passing legislation without the Dems present the Dems will have nobody to blame but themselves since it was they who chose to go AWOL.

If the Dems come back the budget repair bill gets passed immediately to the dismay of the Dem's masters.

The longer the Dems stay AWOL the more pissed off the Taxpayers get.

The sooner the Dems come back the more pissed off their masters get.

The Dems cannot win, that's why the teacher's union tried to offer concessions, like islamists calling for a truce when their ass is being kicked.

97 Actually, i have a good idea of how to shame liberals.


Video tape them on their worst behavior.

Buy some tv advert time

show a clip of it and at the end ask: "do you really identify with vulgarity"?

i think you can tinker with the last line to make it more ominous.

98 Trouble is what these folks and others are looking and hoping for.
Chaos in the streets all over the U.S. would be their dream come true, don't fall in the trap.

The world seems like its about to take a dump, prepare yourselves the best you can.

99 80 @ Dagny. so what GOOD does it do anyone if they can't figure it out???

All I see conservatives doing is being reactionary to liberals. It took 3 days for a tea party rally to form.

They're permitted free race card passes, free godwin's law waivers, they get away with just about anything.

Is there an Alinsky analogue to promoting conservative principles? We can't afford to be reactionary as we are.

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 08:40 PM (3duwi)

That's weird but the unions are REACTING to the bill put out by conservatives. The Teaparty or support Walker rally didn't occur until Saturday because that's WHEN THEY HAD OFF WORK-THEY CAME ON THE WEEKEND BECAUSE THEY HAVE JOBS.

The Walker supporters didn't need to come at all. The bill will be passed as long as walker stands firm.

100 Arizona liberated itself from union management many years ago.  We are also fond or our right to bear arms.  Your experience is valuable testimony to the wisdom of the originators of the Constitution of this country.  They fled opression and control to come to the colonies.  NEVER forget why the 2nd Amendment exists.

101

We don't need no educators

We don't need no fist control

...all in all, you're just another thug who's AWOL....

102

But hey, I don't give a shit.  Posted by: AmishDude

Mead is made of honey.

103 95

Hmm, a mead sounds interesting. Stouts really don't need anything extra. They're pretty stout by themselves.

Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 20, 2011 08:43 PM (S59+B)

Yeah, but I think the Honey Badger Stout needs something to go with the theme.

But hey, I don't give a shit.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 20, 2011 08:45 PM (BvBKY)

im thinkin something unfiltered, maybe a hefeweizen?

Filtered?

Honey badger dont give a shit!

104 Must Read: Russia, China, Radical Islam and the Latin American Threat to US Survival

105 i think you can tinker with the last line to make it more ominous. Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 08:46 PM (3duwi) "Do you want this teaching your children?"

106 Leave the little girls the fuck out of it.

Posted by: MissTammy at February 20, 2011 08:43 PM (BebB7)

Agreed.

107

And you mean being reactive not being reactionary.

Reactionary means wanting to return to a previous state or being to the far right. You can't be "reactionary to" liberals.

108

98 Dear, it still wouldn't work.  There are plenty of video examples.

Although actual liberals might be shamed and realize for once and for all that they have been duped (so there's that); Leftists however are narcissists and beyond shame.

Remember: these people are not liberal...they are leftists.

109 I've seen a variation of that Honey Badger video.  It's a video of Moochelle battling a lobster.  Not a pretty sight.  Poor lobster didn't have a chance.  Moochelle doesn't give a shit.

110 Mead is made of honey.

Posted by: goldbricker esq at February 20, 2011 08:47 PM (S59+B)

If I gave a shit, I'd say that mead was just too weak for Honey Badger.

111 The Unions feel free to do this because Wisconsin has no right to carry a concealed weapon.  It's amazing how polite people can become when a H&K P30 is shoved up their nose.

112 Is there an Alinsky analogue to promoting conservative principles? We can't afford to be reactionary as we are.

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 08:40 PM (3duwi)

The problem is that conservatives want to protect their lives, and liberals don't have lives, they just want something else (that happens to be impossible).

So they never stop, they never give up, and they never stop screwing everyone and everything around them trying to get to their goals.

I went over that in detail in the COlumbia Students thread and I don't feel like going over it again.

But if I was a liberal I would, because I'd have nothing else more important to do than pushing my agenda.

That's why they keep winning, not because their ideas ever work, but because they never stop, they never shut up, and everyone else is too busy trying to keep their lives going to stop them.

113 Governor, can you say PATCO?

114
Just met and spoke with Teh Evul Karl Rove tonight.  And D'oh sent a pic of the three of us on Facebook.  D'oh Boy replied, "Who's the dude in the pic called Turd Blossum?" 

His speaking event was awesome.  He made us laugh and cry (himself included).

He took loads of time talking to people during his book signing (he stood up at the podium the whole time).  When it was our turn, he reached out to me, gave me a hug, and started writing in our book.  I told him our Marine kid's name is the same as the Marine's he spoke about and teared up over.  He stopped writing, looked me in the eye, and said, "You tell your boy he is my hero."  Then he wrote something in the book I didn't see until later.

We told him D'oh is the cousin of ______________ who worked with him in the Bush WH.  He laughed and grabbed my husband.  A guy got a pic of us together.  As we walked away, he said, "You be sure to tell your boy how grateful we all are for his service."  I said, "Thank you for your service.  And I love W."

115

Haven't made it over to Teh FB for a long spell--I got pretty sick of retard "friends" constantly stuck on full-on retard and am not a fan of Zuck--but am tempted to go and check to see how my liberal teaching "professionals" are spinning the week's news.   

116 Tracy Morgan vid--absolutely unfunny. Honey Badger video--more amusing than SNL but more interesting than funny.

117 That sounds awesome Jane. Good job, mom.

118

The sad part is that my dad who is a vet firefighter of 26 years has become a libtard overnight because he believes what he reads in the Columbus Dispatch about House Bill 5.

Posted by: ErikW at February 20, 2011 07:58 PM (wnu+j)

I know of at least 10 people that have canceled their subscriptions to either The Columbus Dispatch or one of their 'local papers' just because of their coverage of this bill.

Every time Coleman has been up for re-election I told them not to read the paper, but instead to open their freaking eyes.  He has destroyed Columbus, but they never listened.  They thought he was great because the Dispatch and 10tv told them he was great.

Finally, they are beginning to see they have been idiots for believing The Dispatch and the local news only reported the truth.

119 "98 Actually, i have a good idea of how to shame liberals." Oh honey, I know how to shame liberal teachers. Ever substitute teach. I did for a bit years ago. You would not believe that chatter in the teachers' lounge. In many schools there are a small group of teachers who make a practice of NOT going into the teachers' lounge because it is such a snake pit. You wouldn't believe how they talk about students and parents. And those working class union members have no idea how despised they are by the teachers. How to embarrass them? Secretly video tape some of the teachers' lounge talk and put it on youtube. Those students who are protesting to support the teachers, it would curl their hair to know what a lot of those teachers actually think about them.

120

If I gave a shit, I'd say that mead was just too weak for Honey Badger. Posted by: AmishDude

Mead starts at 10% APV. Stout? Stout? Guinness is 4.2%.

121 First thing Tuesday morning, push through a bill in the WI Senate firing all the teachers who don't show up for work Wednesday.

That ain't no budget bill.

122 @ Dagny

Get your mind out of the gutter.

Excusing people because 'they had to work" is kinda bullshit imo.

Is our movement a WEEKEND ONLY party? are you fucking kidding?? Well if that's the case, we can close up shop and turn the lights off.

of COURSE the Walker supporters needed to come out. Because anywhere else you look, all you saw was union thugs chanting and marching around downtown Madison. For three days!

ooooOOOOoooooh this bill was passed (and it WILL be passed whether the bill's supporters showed up ANYWAY). That's not the point.

The point is, we're losing the PR battles. We're losing the image battles.

Here's your blank-out response: "waaah waahh waaah liberal media waaah waaah"

So i'll preemptively respond to it: if our entire movement is going to be centered on 1) bitching about liberal media, 2) always REACTING to what the liberals do and 3) and complaining about how "if a liberal did this, then imagine how THAT would look!" .....then again.....lock the doors and turn off the lights.

123 120 That's why I always made it a policy to make fun of the teachers.

124 Wonder if she'll quit the union now???  Or can she??

125

One thing I learned from anti-insurgency literature is the age-old lesson that you try to foment discord within the ranks of the movement.  You buy off one guy, spread rumors about another guy, while making the innocent suffer the most.  Hence, it may be advantageous to go ahead with the plan to lay off a substantial number of teachers while pushing for increased funding for parental vouchers to send kids to private schools.  Or you build a plan to close the offending schools (with high rates of teacher absences) and bus the remaining students to overcrowded schools where the union teachers can manage crowd control for 60 students.   

 

126 105 Must Read: Russia, China, Radical Islam and the Latin American Threat to US Survival

Posted by: momma at February 20, 2011 08:48 PM (penCf

Makes sense to me.  Good read.  Get the wrong guy in office, and poof.  There goes America.  I love teetering on the brink of a cliff. Wheeeee!

127 118 That sounds awesome Jane. Good job, mom.

Posted by: dagny at February 20, 2011 08:54 PM (XW2az)

Thanks.  He also took questions for over 1/2 hour.  I've come away with a respect I didn't really have before.  He's an amazing, open, honest speaker.

One of the things he said during the question/answer period was: Ted Kennedy started the whole "Bush lied over WMDs shit" and then John Effin' Kerry and John Edwards picked it up, along with Jane Harmon.  He approached W about nipping that shit in the bud, and W said NO.  He said that will forever be his greatest disappointment in himself.  He could have pushed W a little more and shut down that crap. 

128

Mead starts at 10% APV. Stout? Stout? Guinness is 4.2%.

Meh, a vodka gimlet is 20%.

And I'm talking Imperial stout.  That stuff is 9-10% and you savor each and every drop.

129 Wonder if she'll quit the union now???  Or can she??

Don't know about Wisconsin, but in California, you have the right to not be in the union, but you are still required to pay the Union dues if you want a public school job.  They get your money by law no matter what.

130

Wonder if she'll quit the union now???  Or can she??

WI isn't a right-to-work state.  She could quit, but would still have to pay.  Might as well stay in and be able to vote @ the meetings.

131

O = ralphies brother  (he laid there like a slug it was his only defense)

Posted by: Gushka at February 20, 2011 08:44 PM (93zw2)

In actions, yes it fits.  For attitude and personality, O is more like Grover Dill, the toady.

132

123 Yeah, as far as protesting goes? It is a weekend only party?

You grasp that most protesters on the left are PAID to go to these rallys? The rest are students and other waste cases supported by their parents? No conservative is going to show up on a weekday to protest and they shouldn't.

The fact that these tools are marching around Madison is pissing off more people than it's impressing esp parents who are having to find sitters or stay home.

No one looks fondly on protesters except protesters. No one. I live right outside DC and protesters are despised and reviled. They don't win the PR war, they lose it WHEN they disrupt the schedules of others. People don't really mind saturday protesters.

So if you think that we need to protest 7 days a week then we need to create a subclass of professional protesters. Since that goes against everything that a conservative believes in, then I doubt that's going to happen.

133 We told him D'oh is the cousin of ______________ who worked with him in the Bush WH. He laughed and grabbed my husband. A guy got a pic of us together. As we walked away, he said, "You be sure to tell your boy how grateful we all are for his service." I said, "Thank you for your service. And I love W."

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 20, 2011 08:53 PM (UOM4

Honey Badger remains stony-still, but sheds a single tear.

134

Finally, they are beginning to see they have been idiots for believing The Dispatch and the local news only reported the truth.

Posted by: momma at February 20, 2011 08:55 PM (penCf)

Mom knows better but it's frustrating as hell with Dad.

He's bitter and cynical so he eats up the bad news from the lying cocksuckers at the Dispatch.

135

It's a crying shame that no one had a video cam to document the goons in action. Instapundit recommends them highly at all such gatherings.

But, lacking that, telling everyone to flop on the ground like Bill Laimbeer and screaming at the top of their lungs while other scream for cops sounds like a viable alternative.

Combining the two with a quick posting to YouTube would be the coup-de-gras. A great deal of mileage could be obtained by merely showing the communist unions in their natural habitat.

Of course, the best thing to have would be a personal Honey Badger, for all of the aforementioned reasons.

136

 Might as well stay in and be able to vote @ the meetings.

Forgot to add:  as long as she's required to pay, might as well keep up membership to avoid being harassed.  Yes, they eat their own.

137

128 Jane, I'm glad to hear he shed's a tear over our marines. At least I have company.

;>

138 The Guardian in UK is outing our man Davis as a CIA operative. I'm not linking that dhimmi rag, but here is a fun excerpt:
 
Last week President Barack Obama described Davis as "our diplomat" and dispatched his chief diplomatic troubleshooter, Senator John Kerry, to Islamabad. Kerry returned home empty-handed.

I wonder if Kerry threw his medals at them.

139 107 Leave the little girls the fuck out of it. Posted by: MissTammy at February 20, 2011 08:43 PM (BebB7) Agreed. The children should be off-limits. Their parents' school choice (a concept oddly enough unavailable to most of their fellow DC residents) however is another matter. Are the teachers at Sidwell Friends unionized?

140

So i'll preemptively respond to it: if our entire movement is going to be centered on 1) bitching about liberal media, 2) always REACTING to what the liberals do and 3) and complaining about how "if a liberal did this, then imagine how THAT would look!" .....then again.....lock the doors and turn off the lights.

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 08:56 PM (3duwi)

If you plan begins with "If only people would," you have already failed.

You need to come up with a plan that starts with "because people do" if you want to succeed.

If your plan depends on conservatives not taking care of their jobs and families, you will fail.

You need to find a way where they can do what's needed without abandoning their responsibilities. Just bitching at them because they won't walk out on their jobs and families accomplishes less than nothing.

We know the left has no sense of responsibility except to "win."

141 140 Don't think any private school teachers are unionized. Never heard of their being such a thing.

142 @ Nerdygirl

It's MR. Honey BADGER. Thank-you.

Re: your idea. I'm open to it. I definitely think it's a start.

@ BondVillain:

If they never stop, never give up, then neither should we. Making excuses is pretty much...er..inexcusable at this late in the game.

Which is funny, because, if conservatives want to protect their lives and rights and future, one would *think* there would be a more energized opposition to the left. If it is WE who have so much to lose....then why are we doing what we're doing? To me, it does not equate. It's disproportionate.

I'll look for your comments in the Columbia student thread (do you have a specific post #?)

They keep winning because they're just working harder than we are.

Otherwise, what you're saying is that this battle is impossible win - and I don't accept that. Not one bit.

I'm quite certain that the band playing in the ballroom on the titanic prided themselves on playing the right notes and rhythms until they went under. Is that really what we're going to do?

Glenn @ Instapundit has been using this whole "doesn't fit the narrative" meme, and I think if they've got a narrative, so should we. And if they say something that doesn't fit it, we should all scream and holler like obama had used the secret word in pee-wee's playhouse.

My FAVORITE picture of all the pictures I've seen at the walker support rally was a guy holding up a "Member of the Taxpayers Union" sign. I hope you've seen it. If you frame this battle as the taxpayers against the union...

143 142 140 Don't think any private school teachers are unionized. Never heard of their being such a thing.

Posted by: dagny at February 20, 2011 09:09 PM (XW2az) 

Lol.  That would do away why most people would even put their kids in private schools.  We paid big bucks (and took no vacations) to protect our kid from gubmint schools.

144 Anybody pushes me and I'm gonna blow up their fkn school

145

Check out the cartoon, so true!

 

^{http://preview.tinyurl.com/67cqte6}

146 hoittytoitty: "The point is, we're losing the PR battles. We're losing the image battles."

On this one, I don't think the Tea Party is at all. This falls under the "if the enemy is committing suicide, don't get in their way."

Those "optics" the Progressives and the MFM so love and are currently displaying are devastating. The unionized teachers are bailing out on students. They appear distant and greedy to everyone who isn't union-associated. The government is obligated to balance its budget and this is a clear, obvious, and justifiable avenue of economizing. They are responding to the electorate and it is understood to be so. The nasty side of the union protests disgusts most. That won't endear them to the constituency. The Democrats have fled and are being paid not to do their job while abdicating the duties of their office. I could go on and on here.

I love "in-your-face" conservatism, but the Tea Party contingency really just needs to have a presence and, in very controlled, respectful manner, point across the way and say, "Look at all the shenanigans they're pulling and what they stand for."

Tea Party has pimp hand. No need to release the Honey Badger.

147 142 140 Don't think any private school teachers are unionized. Never heard of their being such a thing. Posted by: dagny at February 20, 2011 09:09 PM (XW2az) But of course- "incompetent union teachers for thee, but not for me". How very Patrician. And they say the man has no social graces....

148 slightly O/T, the Purple Express or some crap is going to be in Austin for a 'candlelight vigil and march' or some crap. 645 pm on Lavaca tomorrow. Got the 411 off of Malkin's site. Anybody else going? If nothing else, it is a rich hobo area...

149 Lick me.

150

Guys, I just want to point out that they have lost.  They won't admit defeat, so it's sometimes hard to tell.  The union is telling the teachers to go back to work and the state senate GOP leader has announced they're moving on to non-budget items.

One thing about Leftists, their rage has to be focused.  If they get mad at some other piece of legislation, they lose momentum.

151 Dick Cheney recently upgraded to Honey Badger condoms. All the ladies love it.

152

No one looks fondly on protesters except protesters. No one. I live right outside DC and protesters are despised and reviled. They don't win the PR war, they lose it WHEN they disrupt the schedules of others. People don't really mind saturday protesters.

That's true in this country.  Protests can work if their goal is intimidation, say of a company.  But they actually lose PR, especially if they're disruptive, angry or greedy.

And let us not forget that this is not a surprise.  This is what Walker ran on. 

153 @ BondVillain

I agree. "if only people would" is failing.

I DO need to come up with a plan that starts with "because people do". You're absolutely right. And I've been working on some ideas over the past week (when a lot of this stuff in wisconsin lubricated my gears of inspiration).

If only other people would be thinking about this stuff lol

The left also has jobs and families they need to take care of, too. If we're going to simply say, "well, i'm too busy looking after my kids and work hours to really put some umph into making this a better country" we're going to lose, just the same.

I completely agree that there needs to be a healthy balance. I'm not asking them to walk out on their jobs, but to suggest that no conservative person had the day or the afternoon or the evening off is hard to digest. really.

If the left has no sense of responsibility but to 'win'.....then .....so should we? or do you disagree?

I think there are solutions and resources that have yet to be tapped or thought up. This isn't 1995 anymore.....

I was once on a forum called protestwarrior that had put together some decent ideas almost a decade ago....I wonder if anyone else here was with that group?

154

If they get mad at some other piece of legislation, they lose momentum.

Which is why no one displays any bright, shiny objects at their protests.

155 Watch what happens when the WI GOP brings up the picture ID to vote legislation that Dem WI Gov. Doyle repeatedly vetoed the last few years.

156 You rang?

157 Dick Cheney, Pat Cadell, and Honey Badger walk into a bar...

158 #154  I was once on a forum called protestwarrior that had put together some decent ideas almost a decade ago....I wonder if anyone else here was with that group?

I was on ProtestWarrior for a little bit in the early '00s.  I remember some git named "Socialist" who used to troll the threads and post nonsense.  Oh, and a gun-lover whose sn escapes me at the moment with a Koopa Kid avatar.

Haven't been back there in a while.

159 Watch what happens when the WI GOP brings up the picture ID to vote legislation that Dem WI Gov. Doyle repeatedly vetoed the last few years.

Exactly.  WI GOP, you have a 100% majority in the state Senate.  USE IT.

160

One thing about Leftists, their rage has to be focused.  If they get mad at some other piece of legislation, they lose momentum.

Posted by: AmishDude at February 20, 2011 09:16 PM (BvBKY)

In general, the Leftists seem to be able to sustain focused rage long enough to win the MBM battle, but the unions get tired of actually having to actually do anything for long periods of time, so if they don't get their way promptly  tend to wander off.  The MBM doesn't seem to be doing very well with their agenda just now, so this is a good time to let them proceed along their chosen path.

If Walker hangs in there, keeps looking eminently reasonable, and continues to speak articulately sans teleprompter assistance, we might have a win on our hands.  The MBM will try to spin this no matter what, so get ready for the next wave of BS.

161 I wanna buy some death sticks.

162 >>Guys, I just want to point out that they have lost. They lost last November. Sooner or later the runaways will have to come home and this will pass. All of this is just street theater and it's not helping their cause.

163

Honey Badger remains stony-still, but sheds a single tear.

Posted by: Merovign, Bond Villain at February 20, 2011 09:05 PM (bxiXv)

LOL! And Jane, that really is awesome. Hope D'oh Boy knows how many people are eternally grateful to him.

Are the teachers at Sidwell Friends unionized?

If they're Quakers, depending on what branch they are, they're fairly radical , so a union might not be necessary. Big on social justice...nice people, delightful people, but there is some very deeply held radical thought in some of the branches.

Exactly.  WI GOP, you have a 100% majority in the state Senate.  USE IT.

They need to act on these things like Honey Badger on cobra.

164 I tried ProtestWarrior, it never really jelled but their few hits were pretty damn funny.

165 Of course, the best thing to have would be a personal Honey Badger, for all of the aforementioned reasons. I've decided to name my 1911 "Honey Badger", even though it doesn't do as much damage as a real live Honey Badger.

166

Union representation is the private sector is approx 7%. 

Union representation in the private sector MEDIA is very close to 100%.  Even management types who are no longer represented, got their first jobs in the business as union represented newbies. 

The media is one of the last bastions of unionism in the private sector.  Unions have destroyed most of the businesses that they represented:  steel-making, auto-making, manufacturing in general really, those jobs all got shipped offshore.

 

167 The Teaparty or support Walker rally didn't occur until Saturday because that's WHEN THEY HAD OFF WORK-THEY CAME ON THE WEEKEND BECAUSE THEY HAVE JOBS.

And a lot of the anti-Walker shit is from Madison's students and hippies and druggies.  This is what they do for fun on warm days.  (Read comment 2 and comment 20 on this thread). Anything Walker could have proposed to fix the budget--layoffs, cuts in gov't services, closing worthless social departments, anything except chase off more businesses with more taxes--was going to get the same reaction.  Half of the smelly folks shuffling around the Capitol Square don't care about "workers rights"[sic], they just want to chant some shit with their friends and go home feeling smug about stickin' it to the man.

It was hard to get out of the rally, I'll confirm that part of her story.  And you can hear the disruptions on the YouTube video of Hermain Cain.    Unlike Fritzworth's daughter's friend, I was expecting assholes, so I walked back to my bus using the same tactics I used when I worked in a shitty neighborhood in Milwaukee--head up, minimal eye contact, walk purposefully, ignore shouts.  The shouts were troll-level, "Stop watching Faux News!", "You're a pawn of the rich!" blah blah blah. 

And I think that's the thing--I was expecting assholes because instead of having a house and a family, I have time to hang out on the internet and absorb actual primary news sources, instead of catching ten minutes of carefully selected and edited MFM propaganda here and there.  The majority of normal people don't.

168 All of this is just street theater and it's not helping their cause.

Sure as hell helping ours, though. I hope they keep it up.

169 I live in Madison, Wisconsin and have been at the Capitol square multiple times, including on Saturday. Not a single incidence of violence was reported, and absolutely no one was arrested. The Tea Party element was allowed to have its rally and was not assaulted, and police presence was considerable. The majority of union-members I witnessed were teachers, sewer workers, electrical workers, off-duty policemen and firefighters (who are exempted from this bill's provisions). They are not thugs, no matter how much you may dislike them. I would suggest that anyone who enters a crowd of 70,000 people is at risk of being shoved, and one should not take it personally.

170 why are politics so vicious among academics?

Because academia attracts scum.

171 If they never stop, never give up, then neither should we. Making excuses is pretty much...er..inexcusable at this late in the game.

Which is funny, because, if conservatives want to protect their lives and rights and future, one would *think* there would be a more energized opposition to the left. If it is WE who have so much to lose....then why are we doing what we're doing? To me, it does not equate. It's disproportionate.

It's not an excuse, I'm just pointing out why things are the way they are. Conservatives, by their very nature, are not going to put 100% into politics because the very reason they're interested in politics at all is to protect something that isn't politics.

We're not going to abandon our other interests, our families, and our principles like so many liberals do. You put someone in office who will lie, cheat, and steal like they do, he's not going to become like them, he's going to be one of them out of the gate.

You have to find a better solution because "becoming them" loses the whole battle.

I'll look for your comments in the Columbia student thread (do you have a specific post #?)

246, 252, and 283

They keep winning because they're just working harder than we are.

Otherwise, what you're saying is that this battle is impossible win - and I don't accept that. Not one bit.

I didn't say it's impossible to win, I'm saying it's impossible to win by just "trying harder," partly because the bold liar who holds the microphone has a built-in advantage: you have to outnumber or out-shout him, and we let them take over the vast majority of the microphones because of the other reason:

We have other things to do, they don't. You are never going to get as many Conservatives to *live* in the cesspool of politics as liberals do. You have to change the context in some way or you won't be able to overcome their "home field advantage."

Now, if you could overcome the MBM majority, or the academic monopoly, somehow, or if you could just get the public riled up enough about dishonesty (you'd have to fix the MBM first) to stop cold the CONSTANT lies of the left, that might do it. If you could reduce the power of the state to the point where it wasn't the deciding factor in every dispute (oh boy what a world we live in), that might do it as well.

But just demanding what you *know* you're not going to get will not get you anywhere.

I'm quite certain that the band playing in the ballroom on the titanic prided themselves on playing the right notes and rhythms until they went under. Is that really what we're going to do?

So, no offense, but what are you doing? Do you think you're really going to get people who have lives and families and interests and hobbies to just drop all of that, for years or forever, to compete toe-to-toe by sheer brute effort with the "religious fanatics" of the far left, who will in fact throw everything, including your life, to achieve their goal because they think Secular Salvation is waiting for them, and they never get discouraged because they *started* as a failure and are incapable of admitting it?

Glenn @ Instapundit has been using this whole "doesn't fit the narrative" meme, and I think if they've got a narrative, so should we. And if they say something that doesn't fit it, we should all scream and holler like obama had used the secret word in pee-wee's playhouse.

Okay, let me know when you've got the MBM on board with this plan. A lot of people still get their news from them, and that's why the Narrative is a reality.
 
My FAVORITE picture of all the pictures I've seen at the walker support rally was a guy holding up a "Member of the Taxpayers Union" sign. I hope you've seen it. If you frame this battle as the taxpayers against the union...

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 09:10 PM (3duwi)

There is a Taxpayer's Union. Pretty small group, fragmented, not much real influence, can't bribe anyone, don't have enough resources to do much but issue reports on spending and taxation.

One of our problems is we fragment 23 ways from Sunday, everyone has their own interests. I guess one of the reasons the left is (relatively speaking) unified is they subconsciously know they're *all* full of shit, so it hardly matters which faction has the most power as long as they're moving in the right direction.

I'm not trivializing the problem, it's huge and we have to solve it. But solving a problem requires actually *solving* it, which means working with the tools you have.

And millions of conservatives with ACORN budgets and unlimited free time and free press from the MBM and free allies in academia are just not something we have.

172 He stopped writing, looked me in the eye, and said, "You tell your boy he is my hero."

Fucking awesome.

173 The Tea Party element was allowed to have its rally and was not assaulted

Bullshit. 

174 @ Anonymous Drivel

If we had no Tea Party....then what? What if the Tea Party didn't exist right here and now....where would we be?

Perhaps the solution is to dream up a new independent-but-conservative faction too? I dig the Tea Party, I go to meetings, you know the drill...

The enemy isn't committing suicide, not if what BondVillain says is true - they're only goal is total annihilation of opposition. And, imo, we should take on the same ideal.

How the hell does our civilization survive some of the most gruesome and violent left-wing wars and assaults on humanity.....to only see it sinking back that way at full force. How is it that collectivist notions run rampant among all different economic classes....despite the clear history of what it has caused? I think we turned off the spigot that was fighting such hellish fires.

Devastating? Maybe to people like us. But not to people who see a bunch of angry teachers (they're saints! don'tchaknow!) and the discussion is centered around 'taking their rights away'. The discussion isn't on 'balancing the budget'. That's not what people here. You and I....we know what's actually at stake here.

Imagine, for a moment, if there was no exclusion for police officers and fire fighters and state troopers!

So strange....that the people on the left who love their government so much...are willing to have it go insolvent.....

I don't see the protests 'disgusting most'. at all. it disgusts me. it disgusts people on conservative forums. but 'most? nah. After the election of Obama, I don't have much trust that this 'disgusts' people. I think the only reason people are really ticked off is because the Democrats have fled the state. That's probably one thing that will hurt them the most here.

I love the in-your-face conservatism.....mostly because it's 1) rare, and 2) when you do see it it's actually AMAZING. Breitbart got the ball rolling. But he can't be the sole proprietor on such endeavors.

Being "present" in the manner in which Obama had often voted as a senator is not good enough. We all need to vote, and vote YES for The United States. You can sit back and "point out the shennanigans they're trying to pull" but that doesn't convey our ideas. I agree the Tea Party should remain respectful and controlled....despite the fact that it really has no other options, I think it's the right tone for their group. (how do you contrast that with your comment that the Tea Party has the pimp hand??) (if you want to see a real pimp hand, watch Niall Ferguson slap Mika silly on the Morning Joe show on MSNBC the other day)

Honestly, I love the imagery of a conservative honey badger roll out campaign.

Pro-Active. Not Reactive.

Conservative Honey Badger doesn't give a shit. 

175 I'm sure the most those saintly Unionoids did was stick daisies in the gunbarrels of those mongoloid Tea Partiers.

176 "Unions have destroyed most of the businesses that they represented: steel-making, auto-making, manufacturing in general really, those jobs all got shipped offshore." Actually, these jobs got shipped off because we have something called the EPA, which prevents corporations from destroying our beautiful country, and poorer countries like Mexico and India don't.

177 I don't see the protests 'disgusting most'. at all. it disgusts me. it disgusts people on conservative forums. but 'most? nah. After the election of Obama, I don't have much trust that this 'disgusts' people.

They never see the disgusting stuff.  Milwaukee paper photo gallery hasn't shown a single violent, vulgar, or offensive sign, even though pictures of them are all over the internet.

178 I mean, when did unions ever get violent?

179

I'm going to take a really wild guess that Randall / zrqN0, by sneering at the Tea Party as an "element" - read, fringe - was in attendence for the SEIU "element".

Randall, welcome to AoSHQ! You're not one of this site's regular trolls. What brought you by? One of the local unions noticed?

180 This is a no-lose situation for Walker and the WI GOP, and a no-win situation for the Dems and the unions. That is why the Dems and the unions are going into hysterics.

181

I see also that Randall doesn't give shit one about the jobs lost when the "corporations" got hit by the EPA.

Solidarity to the worker!

182 Either the cops are complicit or scared. I'm betting on scared.

I'd say complicit.  And I think this matter will escalate to the point where the Wisconsin National Guard is called up and deployed.  Consider the federal response if that happens.

The American Spectator recently posted an article describing the events and aftermath during Calvin Coolidge's problem with the Boston police union in 1920.  LINK

Excerpt:

Governor Calvin Coolidge was furious. The police were fired by the Commissioner of Police, and Coolidge backed him up, calling out the National Guard. The Governor refused to re-instate the union policemen. Said Coolidge: "There is no right to strike against the public safety by anybody, any time, anywhere."

183 So, tell us, Randall, why do you need a gang of thugs to get yourself a raise?

184 "The discussion isn't on 'balancing the budget'" The reason Wisconsin has a budget deficit is just as much due to corporate tax reduction as anything else. We were projected to have a budget surplus before this occurred. The Unions have already offered to pay more for health care and pensions so long as collective bargaining rights are retained, but this is not acceptable, because its not about balancing the budget. Its about destroying the only major institution in this country, however imperfect, that represents the rights of people who work for a living against the rights of incorporated wealth. We DO need a balance.

185 >>Actually, these jobs got shipped off because we have something called the EPA, which prevents corporations from destroying our beautiful country, and poorer countries like Mexico and India don't. Ah, no. Those jobs got sent overseas because labor costs have become so out of control that our products aren't competitive. Yea, the EPA is a pain in the ass but it is a minor nit compared to ridiculous union contracts that brought the auto industry, steel industry and others to their knees. Oh and the honey badger don't give a shit.

186 The Unions have already offered to pay more for health care and pensions so long as collective bargaining rights are retained

So they can just get it back when they get enough union-owned Democrats back into the gummint via vote fraud.

187

Our new troll "Randall" has so conveniently named himself after the U of Wisconsin's football stadium, Camp Randall.

Making excuses for thugs who assault unarmed women walking through a crowd is pathetic.  Girlie Man!!

188 I agree. "if only people would" is failing.

I DO need to come up with a plan that starts with "because people do". You're absolutely right. And I've been working on some ideas over the past week (when a lot of this stuff in wisconsin lubricated my gears of inspiration).

If only other people would be thinking about this stuff lol

We are. I've spent hundreds of hours discussing ideas about what to do that might actually work with others. A few of them have been done, some worked in a small way, some failed. I've made a few converts and failed to convince many because they're committed to a destructive path and don't care what the facts are.

I've been involved in petitions, recalls, lawsuits, clubs, and casual conversations. We're not all just sitting on our asses out here. You're not the only one that gives a damn.

The left also has jobs and families they need to take care of, too. If we're going to simply say, "well, i'm too busy looking after my kids and work hours to really put some umph into making this a better country" we're going to lose, just the same.

I completely agree that there needs to be a healthy balance. I'm not asking them to walk out on their jobs, but to suggest that no conservative person had the day or the afternoon or the evening off is hard to digest. really.

You have to convince them to do so. Like I said about 9 times, most conservative people have a lot of other things to do with their time, whether it's their family or their job or business or whatever. You have a Hell of a lot more small business owners in our camp, and I don't know many of them that have "time off" very often. There are also a ton of people who aren't committed and we have a hard time reaching and retaining them because they're surrounded by things like MBM coverage and its dishonest message.

They have welfare populations to organize, union members with protected jobs who can run around whenever they want and not get fired, doctors to fraudulently sign their sick notes, etc. We don't have that.

A lot of us are not doing so well job- and money-wise these days. We're scrambling to take care of ourselves and our families by working harder, innovating, finding new business opportunities, doing interviews, etc.

This whole financial mess, the bankrupting of state governments, the protesting and lobbying for expansion of the state - THAT IS THEIR JOB! That's how they make a living and improve the quality of their lives.

Automatic advantage. You need to work smarter, not harder, to overcome that. You can't out-protest them and I know *I* haven't been able to convince many people that it's big enough to be their whole life like the left, because honestly it *isn't* their whole life. The people I have convinced can see far enough ahead to see that it *will* be their whole life if they don't do something about it.

If the left has no sense of responsibility but to 'win'.....then .....so should we? or do you disagree?

Of course I disagree. Are you saying we abandon our honesty, our principles, to "win?" What have we won? It's not about having the "right people" in charge, if it was, leftist governments wouldn't be such a constant disaster.

It's about a system that *works* based on *reality* - the right ideas. If the system is well designed it matters *less* (but obviously it does matter) if the "wrong" people are in charge because the damage they can do is limited.

Our big problem is that damage is cumulative, and the left has been doing that damage for a long time, and undoing it is a problem.

I think there are solutions and resources that have yet to be tapped or thought up. This isn't 1995 anymore.....

I was once on a forum called protestwarrior that had put together some decent ideas almost a decade ago....I wonder if anyone else here was with that group?

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 09:19 PM (3duwi)

It turned out to be sort of a one-trick pony, it got minimal coverage (You *have* to get past the gatekeepers!) and while I think they're still out there they didn't accomplish much. One of those things we tried that didn't work.

189 I guess the 'rights of the workers' is the reason the Mob always gets involved.

190 "So, tell us, Randall, why do you need a gang of thugs to get yourself a raise?" I don't have a band of thugs, I didn't get a raise, I don't work for a Union. I believe that people who work for a living deserve dignity and a chance at upward mobility. Unions are by no means perfect, and it should be a wake up call to them that they need to reform or they face extinction. But even the private sector has benefitted from organized labor, and we should not need to be wage-slaves to have access to health care and a comfortable life. Yes, many of the people at this protest are ridiculous, Madison is a kind of ridiculous place. But it is also the home of organized labor, and nobody should be surprised that normal working people do not want to see fifty years of labor history erased in a week with almost no public debate. That is not freedom. Union people pick up your trash, allow you to sh*t in a flushing toilet, educate your children AND the children who do not have money or parents who care. If you don't want to do these jobs, you are free to work in the private sector, where your health benefits and wages are decided by corporate boards not by you and your fellow workers. If your benefits and wages are unacceptable, it may be because your employer is not particularly concerned with your well being.

191 The Unions have already offered to pay more for health care and pensions so long as collective bargaining rights are retained

Tell me again why I should pay for any one else's health care and pension? I already pay your salary, at what, 3 times more than the average non-unionized private-sector worker? Why aren't you offering to pay for all your own health care and pension?

192

The Mob gravitates to easy money it can take by force.  With private sector unions just about played out, public sector unions are the only prey available to The Mob thugs.

Those nice little old lady teachers are just the window dressing for the goons in purple standing behind them.

193 "Ah, no. Those jobs got sent overseas because labor costs have become so out of control that our products aren't competitive. Yea, the EPA is a pain in the ass but it is a minor nit compared to ridiculous union contracts that brought the auto industry, steel industry and others to their knees. " Our products are not competitive because there are places without environmental protections and unions where they can be made for much cheaper and without regulation. If you want America to be India or Mexico, by all means, disband the Unions and the EPA.

194 @BondVillain

It's not an excuse, I'm just pointing out why things are the way they are. Conservatives, by their very nature, are not going to put 100% into politics because the very reason they're interested in politics at all is to protect something that isn't politics.

Then I guess it comes down to valuation and priorities.

We're not going to abandon our other interests, our families, and our principles like so many liberals do. You put someone in office who will lie, cheat, and steal like they do, he's not going to become like them, he's going to be one of them out of the gate.

I saw quite a few pics with families and people with strollers. Hell, if one really thinks about it, get the whole family involved in this.

You have to find a better solution because "becoming them" loses the whole battle.

I"m not saying we should become them....but that we should match them. And bring the fight to their doors before they bring it to ours. Again, always being on the defensive end doesn't (and hasn't) helped.

I didn't say it's impossible to win, I'm saying it's impossible to win by just "trying harder," partly because the bold liar who holds the microphone has a built-in advantage: you have to outnumber or out-shout him, and we let them take over the vast majority of the microphones because of the other reason:

Well, since we ARE right....why should the truth have a quaint voice?


We have other things to do, they don't. You are never going to get as many Conservatives to *live* in the cesspool of politics as liberals do. You have to change the context in some way or you won't be able to overcome their "home field advantage."

I disagree. Other things to do? Sure. Just like anyone else. Perhaps you're right about not getting as many conservatives to *live* in the 'cesspool' of politics....but we aren't even taking a vacation there. I completely agree on changing the context and the proper narrative. It's a necessity.


Now, if you could overcome the MBM majority, or the academic monopoly, somehow, or if you could just get the public riled up enough about dishonesty (you'd have to fix the MBM first) to stop cold the CONSTANT lies of the left, that might do it. If you could reduce the power of the state to the point where it wasn't the deciding factor in every dispute (oh boy what a world we live in), that might do it as well.

You can't get the people riled up about dishonesty. It'll never work. Maybe in small communities and local elections. Unless they're caught with a hand down a child's pants, it's just not gonna happen.

Academic Monopoly? You can't really overcome that. But you can insulate students from the cloying effect of sweet stupidity being taught on campuses.

I must revisit the Alinsky book, but I do recall that one of the pointers was that you can lie your face off ...because the message that gets out there first almost always wins because it stays in peoples minds. people STILL think palin is responsible for the tuscon shootings. even normal people i know....insane. I know.

We seriously need to reverse engineer alinsky's commentary. no joke.



[So, no offense, but what are you doing? Do you think you're really going to get people who have lives and families and interests and hobbies to just drop all of that, for years or forever, to compete toe-to-toe by sheer brute effort with the "religious fanatics" of the far left, who will in fact throw everything, including your life, to achieve their goal because they think Secular Salvation is waiting for them, and they never get discouraged because they *started* as a failure and are incapable of admitting it?

I've spent time at the TEA party meetings. Volunteer. Been doing a lot of writing on how to change this narrative....aggregating ideas....i dig Ryan's Roadmap for the economy. Why not a new one for conservative discourse?

If we can't inspire people to be passionate about their country and the future of their country......well...actually maybe that's where we should start? It's not like the direction of this country has gone unnoticed by anyone.

195 "The Unions have already offered to pay more for health care and pensions so long as collective bargaining rights are retained, but this is not acceptable"

At issue is legislation put forth by the Republican Wisconsin Governor and Legislators. Negotiations over that legislation are between the Republican Wisconsin Governor and Legislators and the Democrat Wisconsin Legislators, not with outside the legislative process special interest union leaders. Unfortunately for the unions, The Democrat Wisconsin Legislators have gone AWOL depriving the unions of representation within the Wisconsin Legislature.

196 ^{The reason Wisconsin has a budget deficit is just as much due to corporate tax reduction as anything else. We were projected to have a budget surplus before this occurred. The Unions have already offered to pay more for health care and pensions so long as collective bargaining rights are retained, but this is not acceptable, because its not about balancing the budget. Its about destroying the only major institution in this country, however imperfect, that represents the rights of people who work for a living against the rights of incorporated wealth. We DO need a balance.}

^{Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 09:48 PM (zrqN0)}

Hey guys! Check out the new astroturf in Randall's mom's back yard!

Hey, jackwagon, $200 M is missing from patient compensation funds, stolen by your hero Diamond Jim Doyle (D-ouche). I highly doubt that is going to be replaced by revoking corporate tax reductions, which, by the way, are not back where they were when WI HAD a surplus, because when corporations make money, they pay taxes and hire people and more business comes and on and on.

But then, you learned economics from a public school teacher, didn't you?

197 hoittytoitty@175,

You addressed the meta argument and I agree with it. I'm pointing out that in this particular case - the WI teacher union sickout - that the Tea Party need do much less than normal. The visuals speak for themselves. The Tea Party's presence is enough to bring attention to the alternate POV, a POV that resonates with infinitely more people.

I would never argue that the Tea Party can settle down now and coast. It's an imperative to empower it and grow it in order to preserve the nation. Frankly, I don't think it, the nation, can be saved; however, it doesn't mean that you don't fight for it whenever and however you can. The thing is that this is a battle that will take, literally, generations if we've not already gone beyond the socialist tipping point already. The reality is that societies are built to fail and there may not be a damned thing we can do about it. The gene pool will get its cyclic purging and something else will form... and we won't be part of it.

Sorry 'bout the gloom and doom but it's inevitable. However, right here, right now, in the battle for WI, the Tea Party is winning and will score. Let's be as smart as possible, understanding the limits to which we are restrained, and move outwardly from that epicenter. Build outwardly from the window of real reform and begin appealing not just for economic remedies but also for labor/union ones and academic liberation. The hidden kernel to come from this won't be labor reform (as economics have guaranteed that path) but the change in the way academia should be viewed. That's the slow-boiling narrative that needs cultivation and the real power of socialist/Marxist thought.

On that, bring out Honey Badger and his dad.

198 "Tell me again why I should pay for any one else's health care and pension? I already pay your salary, at what, 3 times more than the average non-unionized private-sector worker? Why aren't you offering to pay for all your own health care and pension? " You don't pay my salary, I am not in a Union. If Union salaries and benefits are so much better than yours, you should be asking yourself why your private-sector employer does not see fit to keep you healthy and pay you a comfortable wage. Oh yeah, and a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash. So if you want to pee inside and not live in filth, maybe some Unions are not a bad idea.

199 Yea, the EPA is a pain in the ass but it is a minor nit compared to ridiculous union contracts that brought the auto industry, steel industry and others to their knees.

Just don't let that be an excuse to avoid cutting the shit out of the EPA.

If you don't want to do these jobs, you are free to work in the private sector

You should go drop that bon mot on your illegally striking "educator" friends.

200 We defeated the Germans (twice) and the Japanese without the EPA.  We put a man on the moon - without the EPA.  We beat the Mexicans and the Spanish without the EPA.  We somehow survived nearly 200 years without the EPA.

201 Randall, did not Walker tell the entire state of WI that he planned to do just this if he was elected?   Wy, yes, I believe he did, and he was lected with a farily decent majority.   Your lame excuse that this came as some kind of surprise is bullshit of the highest smell.

202

Oh yeah, and a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash

Um, that's a loser argument.  Democrats and Republicans have told me for decades now that THOSE jobs are for illegal aliens.

203 ^{Oh yeah, and a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash. So if you want to pee inside and not live in filth, maybe some Unions are not a bad idea.}

^{Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:03 PM (zrqN0)}

Wait, isn't that the excuse given for having illegals stay in the country? I'm confused on the Commie talking points. Are you saying that union workers are like illegals?

204 Our products are not competitive because there are places without environmental protections and unions where they can be made for much cheaper and without regulation

Yes, that's exactly what we mean. So what's your gripe, you just agreed that unions are the problem.

by all means, disband the Unions and the EPA.

 BUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

205 Don't we keep a honey badger around here for folks like Randall?

206  Oh yeah, and a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash. So if you want to pee inside and not live in filth, maybe some Unions are not a bad idea.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:03 PM (zrqN0)

Bull fucking shit.   In every right to work state those jobs get done just like they do in union shitholes.

You really are a dumb shit.

207 Speaking of "corporate tax reduction", there's about a mile of road in Madison leading up to the Capitol that's nothing but one empty light industrial building after another.  But Doyle driving business out of the state (and Obama shafting business all over) couldn't possibly affect the amount of tax revenue collected from business, right?

208 You don't pay my salary, I am not in a Union. If Union salaries and benefits are so much better than yours, you should be asking yourself why your private-sector employer does not see fit to keep you healthy and pay you a comfortable wage.

Ah, the sophistry.

If you don't earn enough, you're not linked in with the proper band of thugs.

'Randall' is a union lawyer.

209 Randall, you seem to have a pee, toilet, and sewer fixation.  You should take some time off from work and re-adjust.  My suggestion is to visit one of those nice doctors filling out fake excuse notes, hand it to your boss,  and then do some yoga stretching in the Wisconsin Capital building.

210 "When corporations make money, they pay taxes and hire people and more business comes and on and on." Two thirds of Wisconsin corporations pay no taxes. I know because I am incorporated in Wisconsin. Even the Wisconsin Chamber of Commerce, which represents the private sector, agrees that this is not necessary or productive.

211 We somehow survived nearly 200 years without the EPA.

And we were apparently India and Mexico before 1970.

212 Oh, Christ, here we go. Drink some more Kool-Aid, Sparky.

If Union salaries and benefits are so much better than yours

Dream on, buddy. I have 100% medical and dental, and I make 10% more than community, all without having to waste money on union dues every month.

a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash

The trash in my hometown is picked up regularly by NON-UNION workers. There are hundreds and thousands of cities all over the freaking country that can manage to have trash service without unionizing. Ditto sewer work.

213 you should be asking yourself why your private-sector employer does not see fit to keep you healthy

Free low-deductible health insurance != health.

214 I'm trying to remember where I've seen Randall's hash tag... I Googled it and didn't get a hit, but I know I've seen it. Just another of our regular trolls trying on a different disguise.

215 There are hundreds and thousands of cities all over the freaking country that can manage to have trash service without unionizing. Ditto sewer work.

Posted by: MissTammy at February 20, 2011 10:11 PM (BebB7)

Yeah, and they don't piss off and not go to work when they are needed most like in *cough* NY *cough*.

216 Two thirds of Wisconsin corporations pay no taxes.

Does it even pentrate your pea brain that this is probably why these two thirds are IN Wisconsin to begin with?

217 "Randall, you seem to have a pee, toilet, and sewer fixation. You should take some time off from work and re-adjust." Yes, I enjoy peeing inside. That's what I just love about this country.

218 "Does it even pentrate your pea brain that this is probably why these two thirds are IN Wisconsin to begin with? " Yeah, they all just showed up the last year.

219 >>Our products are not competitive because there are places without environmental protections and unions where they can be made for much cheaper and without regulation. If you want America to be India or Mexico, by all means, disband the Unions and the EPA. OK, then riddle me this. How is it that foreign auto makers including Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, etc. have opened auto plants here in the states? I'll save you the time. They've opened them is states where EPA still has jurisdiction but they aren't unionized. Quit while your behind.

220 I don't have a band of thugs, I didn't get a raise, I don't work for a Union. I believe that people who work for a living deserve dignity and a chance at upward mobility.

The Public Sector is receiving higher wages and better benefits at lower costs (and completely unsustainable pension plans that no one else gets) AT THE EXPENSE OF the taxpayers, who are broke. We can't afford it anymore.

So the answer is no, you cannot have any more of our money, in fact you can have less, and you had better damned well be grateful or you won't get any at all.

How do you like them apples?

Unions are by no means perfect, and it should be a wake up call to them that they need to reform or they face extinction.

I think I'll just go with option 2, because option 1 has been refused over and over and over again. They're out of second chances.

But even the private sector has benefitted from organized labor, and we should not need to be wage-slaves to have access to health care and a comfortable life.

Public servants have insanely liberal protection LAWS as well as unions who cooperate with politicians, bribe them, and receive protection in addition to those laws. We can't afford the money, and we can't afford the corruption. It has to stop.

Yes, many of the people at this protest are ridiculous, Madison is a kind of ridiculous place. But it is also the home of organized labor, and nobody should be surprised that normal working people do not want to see fifty years of labor history erased in a week with almost no public debate. That is not freedom.

It sure as Hell isn't freedom to have a bunch of self-entitled, shirking, greedy, so-called "public servants" trying to protect their Champagne and Caviar while the rest of us are scrabbling to pay the damned rent. The Public Sector union members are first-class citizens and the rest of us second-class, we don't have the special legal protections, high pay and obscenely cheap benefits they do.

This is unacceptable. This is not freedom.

Union people pick up your trash, allow you to sh*t in a flushing toilet, educate your children AND the children who do not have money or parents who care.

Oh, don't even get me started on calling what these people do "education." And my dumpster is always full and my water stops at random, so don't ask me for sympathy on that basis either. And I know how much these people bank, it's a Hell of a lot more than I do.

If you don't want to do these jobs, you are free to work in the private sector, where your health benefits and wages are decided by corporate boards not by you and your fellow workers.

I decide where I work, if I'm not happy with conditions I can negotiate for more or go somewhere else. I don't get to bribe politicians or get automatic raises and Cadillac benefits at the taxpayer's expense.

Also, as far as people "not wanting to do those jobs," most public sector positions have an application list a mile long. Because the pay is obscenely good, they get more vacation and sick time, better benefits, and defined-benefit pensions no one else does.

If your benefits and wages are unacceptable, it may be because your employer is not particularly concerned with your well being.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 09:57 PM (zrqN0)

In the private sector, people are paid what it costs o replace them. If you want more, make it harder to replace you by doing better.

Of course, in the public sector, people are paid as much as they can get away with, which is why either public sector unions or civil service protections need to go.

In short, you're wrong about everything, and either your side is going to lose or it won't matter because we're going to go bankrupt and you're going to lose it all anyway.

221 You don't pay my salary, I am not in a Union. If Union salaries and benefits are so much better than yours, you should be asking yourself why your private-sector employer does not see fit to keep you healthy and pay you a comfortable wage.

Jeeze, it almost makes me wish I lived in country where if I thought my employers weren't treating me fairly or paying me enough I could fucking quit and go get another fucking job!!!


Oh Wait!!!

222 "I'm trying to remember where I've seen Randall's hash tag... I Googled it and didn't get a hit, but I know I've seen it. Just another of our regular trolls trying on a different disguise." Keep looking, I'm just a dude in Wisconsin.

223 you should be asking yourself why your private-sector employer does not see fit to keep you healthy and pay you a comfortable wage.

No, you should be asking your self why the fuck you think it is ANY employer's job to keep their employees healthy. If I don't like the wage I am being paid, I am free to find another job. My employer owes me nothing. I'm not some lazy, free loading shit who thinks anyone owes me anything.

224 Yes, I enjoy peeing inside.

Peeing inside is bad for Gaia. It wastes a lot of water, and is completely unnecessary. If you really cared about the environment, you'd do that shit outside, and not use paper to wipe with.

Do you use paper to wipe with, Randall? Your Masters will be very disappointed to hear that, if it's true.

225 "No, you should be asking your self why the fuck you think it is ANY employer's job to keep their employees healthy. If I don't like the wage I am being paid, I am free to find another job. My employer owes me nothing. I'm not some lazy, free loading shit who thinks anyone owes me anything." Because their employees are the reason they are able to make money in the first place. It makes sense to invest in your workforce. However, if you don't care about anyone except yourself then I have nothing but sympathy for you.

226

"a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash"

Randall,

Then why can't they pick up their own trash from the protests!

Oh, and Honey Badger don't like that shit.

227 Do you use paper to wipe with, Randall? Your Masters will be very disappointed to hear that, if it's true.

Or at least go Sheryl Crow.  One square to rule them all.

228 Because their employees are the reason they are able to make money in the first place. It makes sense to invest in your workforce. However, if you don't care about anyone except yourself then I have nothing but sympathy for you.

Ooo, more of that sophistry.

'You should care' licenses the mob to demand it.

The troll equates two different things.

And then the flip, judgmental QED from the false premise.

That's why he's a lawyer.

229

Randall,

the point it is no longer sustainble , no matter how much  we like our childs teacher , every state ,  our country itself is broke, we have educators either not understanding that (which itself is rather  bizzare)

bennies, wages, living the high dreams  etc. are not viable any longer, millions are unemployed and can no longer pay taxes, where is the sympathy for those? or those that took substantial cuts in their lifestyles wages and other perks in life are to keep funding state? where they get to chose their payscale , ? and take it from us? and we have no say? we are called names because we say we can no longer handle the burden of their lifestule?

see yes Doyle lost the funds. shame on him. many of our pensions were hit hard during the crisis .

they state already have  things in place already for workers protection, cut out the middle guy, save us some money,   (although that part is only my own thought not walkers)

230 I"m not saying we should become them....but that we should match them. And bring the fight to their doors before they bring it to ours. Again, always being on the defensive end doesn't (and hasn't) helped.

We're on the defensive because they're trying to steal from us. We don't want to steal from them, we just want to stop them from doing whatever theyw ant to us.

We are, by nature, defensive.

Well, since we ARE right....why should the truth have a quaint voice?

It doesn't have a quaint voice, the lie just has a megaphone.

You can't get the people riled up about dishonesty. It'll never work. Maybe in small communities and local elections. Unless they're caught with a hand down a child's pants, it's just not gonna happen.

Then we've already lost.

Academic Monopoly? You can't really overcome that. But you can insulate students from the cloying effect of sweet stupidity being taught on campuses.

Then we've already lost, demographic destiny. Even if they don't convince everyone, they set the "background noise" that sets the context.

I must revisit the Alinsky book, but I do recall that one of the pointers was that you can lie your face off ...because the message that gets out there first almost always wins because it stays in peoples minds. people STILL think palin is responsible for the tuscon shootings. even normal people i know....insane. I know.

We seriously need to reverse engineer alinsky's commentary. no joke.

Posted by: hoittytoitty at February 20, 2011 10:00 PM (3duwi)

Alinsky's model is based on dishonesty. You want to take that road? Think it goes to a different place?

And do you think your lies can outrun the MBM and academia? No. Communication is everything, and trust is everything, if you want a stable system.

If all you want is to "beat democrats" and you don't care about the consequences or what philosophy you actually live under, then sure, you can follow their "rules." But I don't think you'll like the outcome.

231 "Do you use paper to wipe with, Randall? Your Masters will be very disappointed to hear that, if it's true." Yup. I also toss my cigarettes into the gutter, and I don't always separate my trash and recycling. I am free as an American to do this, and I believe other Americans deserve the freedom to collectively bargain. Just as I believe you guys have the right to private sector jobs without representation.

232 Just as I believe you guys have the right to private sector jobs without representation.

Until the mob comes and tells us we joins or dey breaks our legs.

233 Randall: "Two thirds of Wisconsin corporations pay no taxes. I know because I am incorporated in Wisconsin."

So what? You have to have net income to pay tax. If you have that many businesses not being profitable, then maybe other business expenses - say labor costs - are too high. I guess I'm missing your point. Are you saying corporations don't need to be profitable to be successful and that the greater virtue is just existing to pay higher salaries (union included) because profits ultimately don't matter? That a corporation that grows by running in place WRT not contributing income tax or franchise tax to the state is better? Worse? What? I'm not following.

234 >>Just as I believe you guys have the right to private sector jobs without representation. So do you support the Democrats shutting down the government in WI?

235 Because their employees are the reason they are able to make money in the first place.

Honey, you truly seem like a nice enough guy, and I don't like fussing with folks. But honestly, we see things differently.

My take on it is that I make money in the first place because I get a paycheck from this company. That's enough incentive for me, and they pay me well and give me great benefits, without me being in a union that does nothing but agitate and foment distrust, unrest, and encourage feelings of entitlement.

I think this is the main difference between Leftists Socialist like yourself. You have this attitude that everyone owes you something, or that someone should ve taking care of you. And I hope that didn't sound snotty, I didn't mean it to.

I just can't understand the whole mindset.

236 NOTE:  Troll does not address right-to-work states what still gots the indoor privvies.

237 "and we have no say? we are called names because we say we can no longer handle the burden of their lifestule?" You do have a say, and so do Wisconsin's working class. I am not calling anyone names. The Unions in this state have agreed to everything except for the removal of collective bargaining rights, which have no economic impact. Teachers have already returned $100,000,000 of future raises to help the budget gap. And Doyle did not "lose" funds, he transferred them from where I agree they belonged to a general fund that was not specifically reserved for costs attendant to malpractice litigation. The State is currently being sued over this, and I do not disagree that this is not acceptable. If taxpayers are told there money is going somewhere, it should go there.

238 Just as I believe you guys have the right to private sector jobs without representation.

Well that's mighty big of you.

239 Yup. I also toss my cigarettes into the gutter, and I don't always separate my trash and recycling.

You know, you need to hang around here. I believe there is hope for you yet!

240

What? Randall Flagg shows up to say, The Tea Party element was allowed to have its rally and was not assaulted.

Are you fucking kidding me? Allowed? ALLOWED?Who the hell are you to ALLOW the "tea party element" to have their rally? The unions are the ones who should be arrested for fraud the minute they present fake doctor's notes. Allowed my ass.

241 >>The Unions in this state have agreed to everything except for the removal of collective bargaining rights, which have no economic impact. So they have agreed to give up economic benefits they got from collective bargaining but collective bargaining has no economic impact. You might want to rethink that one. I'm off to bed, gotta get up tomorrow and oppress some more workers while I sit back and eat peeled grapes.

242 "Honey, you truly seem like a nice enough guy, and I don't like fussing with folks. But honestly, we see things differently. My take on it is that I make money in the first place because I get a paycheck from this company. That's enough incentive for me, and they pay me well and give me great benefits, without me being in a union that does nothing but agitate and foment distrust, unrest, and encourage feelings of entitlement. I think this is the main difference between Leftists Socialist like yourself. You have this attitude that everyone owes you something, or that someone should ve taking care of you. And I hope that didn't sound snotty, I didn't mean it to. I just can't understand the whole mindset." I appreciate that this is respectful, and I see where you are coming from. Not that it matters to any of you, but I am far from a Leftist Socialist, I just happen to believe that this country has benefitted from Unions. I agree that they have been seriously corrupted and I understand that pensions and benefits eat up huge amounts of state budgets. But the right to collectively bargain for the right to dignity and a living wage are for me inherently American virtues. I have worked every day since I graduated high school, never belonged to a Union, never went on unemployment, and always paid my taxes. I do not feel entitled to anything, and I have seen people abuse social programs and believe it is highly unfair. But I also believe that as Americans and Christians, we should look out for each other. It is not only the strong that survive. The weak survive too, usually in large numbers. And they are usually angry and violent and not big fans of the rich. I do not want to see this happen in my country.

243 You don't pay my salary, I am not in a Union. If Union salaries and benefits are so much better than yours, you should be asking yourself why your private-sector employer does not see fit to keep you healthy and pay you a comfortable wage. Oh yeah, and a lot of these people do jobs that most Americans wouldn't touch, like working in a sewer or picking up trash. So if you want to pee inside and not live in filth, maybe some Unions are not a bad idea.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:03 PM (zrqN0)

Yeah, companies that make 3% profit should double their employees' salary and provide free health care.

And go out of business and lay off all their employees.

You are really dumber than a bag of wet hair, aren't you?

Do you know where all this money comes from? Here's a hint, it's not "the money fairy." It's also not "The Money Tree," unless you want to pay really high interest.

Where did you learn about economics, the Vladimir Lenin Memorial School for Upping the Proletariat? It doesn't work, dude, I've known a lot of business owners, and with a couple of jerk exceptions they all cared a great deal for their employees (well, most of them, everyone has a problem child).

You just can't double your expenses without increasing your revenue, unless you're in the public sector and can bribe a politician to run up huge debts or raise taxes for you.

It will stop. Either we will stop it or the whole thing will collapse because of the greed and ignorance of everyone with their lips sewn to the public tit.

Do you seriously think, for real, that nobody in the REAL 19% unemployed will pick up trash for $40k + std bennies instead of $80k, and you can't find anyone to teach school for $50k instead of $90k?

The Unions' JOB is to restrict employment in a sector to keep wages artificially high. Distorting the market ALWAYS has consequences, you can only ignore them for so long.

244 The two points in the legislation which the public-sector unions will not negotiate:

1)  Mandatory annual union re-certification by a majority vote of ALL of the union's members, not just a majority of  the members that bothered to vote.

2) No more automatic deduction of union dues from each member's government paycheck.  For Wisconsin teachers, that's $700 to $1,000 a year. 

(h/t John Fund  WSJ LINK   "What's at Stake in Wisconsin")

245 Nobody is losing collective bargaining in Wisconsin. People just aren't getting the bargain they want.

246 "So they have agreed to give up economic benefits they got from collective bargaining but collective bargaining has no economic impact. " Let me rephrase. Eliminating collective bargaining will do nothing to help balance the budget. The real reason Walker wants to get rid of it is because he knows he can't pass his new budget, which cuts 25% of funding to education.

247 Randall: "Teachers have already returned $100,000,000 of future raises to help the budget gap."

That's Obama Math. Set a currently unsustainable level and then cap that while acting like a sacrifice was made by not meeting some future, made-up number. Return future raises? Are you kidding me? That's not a return. And it's not nearly good enough for the "shared sacrifice" the Progressives so demand.

The union still wants guaranteed raises without taxpaying voter approval, i.e. the ones who actually must pay the bill.

248 "The two points in the legislation which the public-sector unions will not negotiate: 1) Mandatory annual union re-certification by a majority vote of ALL of the union's members, not just a majority of the members that bothered to vote. 2) No more automatic deduction of union dues from each member's government paycheck. For Wisconsin teachers, that's $700 to $1,000 a year." They will also lose their ability to bargain on anything except wages, which will be tied to the CPI, so basically nothing. While we can disagree about how Unions operate, these provisions do nothing to balance the budget.

249 The Unions in this state have agreed to everything except for the removal of collective bargaining rights, which have no economic impact.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:33 PM (zrqN0)

So if they have no economic impact, then you don't have a problem removing the Unions' authority to negotiate (with the state) salaries and benefits, but only working conditions. And "dignity."

Because there's no economic impact means that those negotiations don't affect the budget.

Or, alternatively, you're just making things up.

250  naybe we should build our own union,  leaving  out all the corruption, buying politicians, graft, threatenng behavior ,and  pay to play deals

251 Oh, also, pet peeve of mine.

Who pays the Corporate Income Tax?

Think carefully before you answer.

252 "These aren't the droids you're looking for."

I don't give a shit.

253 "Do you seriously think, for real, that...you can't find anyone to teach school for $50k instead of $90k?" Already did. Average school teacher salary in Madison is $51k.

254 "naybe we should build our own union, leaving out all the corruption, buying politicians, graft, threatenng behavior ,and pay to play deals" I completely agree.

255

Randall,

You hadn't pulled out the Christian card before, however to be authentic you need to add concerned. Christians are more than capable of taking care of themselves and others without the government involved.

The unions you espouse are taking us down the indoor and outdoor toilet.

 

256 Merovign, Bond Villain: "Who pays the Corporate Income Tax?"

You can bet it won't be me. I just won't give a shit.

257 They will also lose their ability to bargain on anything except wages, which will be tied to the CPI, so basically nothing. While we can disagree about how Unions operate, these provisions do nothing to balance the budget.

Public-sector employees are free to seek employment elsewhere if they don't like their employers' wage and benefit packages.

258 "Distorting the market ALWAYS has consequences, you can only ignore them for so long." Oh man, you are so right. In fact, without marketplace distortion, we wouldn't have a nationwide state budget crisis.

259 "Public-sector employees are free to seek employment elsewhere if they don't like their employers' wage and benefit packages." It seems to me that they do.

260 1)  Mandatory annual union re-certification by a majority vote of ALL of the union's members, not just a majority of  the members that bothered to vote.

Well gee...I can't imagine why that would have them worried.  The unions are so beloved and wonderful...this is a gimmie....

261 It seems to me that they do.

Only if the riots and bribery don't work.

262 But the right to collectively bargain for the right to dignity and a living wage are for me inherently American virtues.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:39 PM (zrqN0)

But that's not what actually happens. What actually happens is people are forced to pay for political lobbying they don't want, forced into unemployment if they won't pay for that and representation which as often or not serves to harm employment in general by raising prices, restricting employment in a sector, disincentivising productivity in favor of seniority, and in my experience doing as much harm to employees with strikes and corrupt negotiations as good.

Add to that the corruption of NLRB and labor laws giving unions a hand up, even excusing violence in the case of MANY conflicts (and demanding employees who vandalized company property and threatened or injured company personnel not be punished), and you have the reason why the private sector unions are dying.

As far as the public sector, unions + civil service law has led to a "labor market" without the "market" part. Management's hands are completely tied, the negotiators on the government side are as often as not sympathetic to or even members of a union, and the taxpayers are treated as an unlimited source of money.

Unsustainable doesn't even begin to cover it, but corrupt and evil are a good start.

263 Public-sector employees are free to seek employment elsewhere if they don't like their employers' wage and benefit packages.

Yeah, but the people that replace them aren't free from the union.  Funny how that works.

264 Hey let's RAISE all the corporate income taxes! Let's see what that does to the unemployment rate.

265 "Christians are more than capable of taking care of themselves and others without the government involved." I'm sure that's true, but the main argument against Unions seems to be "I got mine, if you aren't so lucky then forget you." I simply disagree with that.

266

another thing, the unions call for a strike, public unions against the popultions, shutting down schools. police service, sanitation, , I mean really, the CAN quit their job if they feel stifled or unfairly treated, move onto something more lucrative. but they coerce the population instead, why is this justifible at all, the leaders from state to state that have mismanaged funds, to the unions themselves that have mismanaged the Peoples funds. butthe tax payer through no fault of their own has to Make certain these BETTERS do not suffer at all, the rest of us must, for the greater good and all.

to much power,  and they've proved unworthy.

267 Oh man, you are so right. In fact, without marketplace distortion, we wouldn't have a nationwide state budget crisis.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:52 PM (zrqN0)

That's the first thing you've said that makes real solid sense, the problem is that you've got your polarity reversed.

So, who pays corporate income tax?

268 I'm sure that's true, but the main argument against Unions seems to be "I got mine, if you aren't so lucky then forget you." I simply disagree with that.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:56 PM (zrqN0)

No it isn't. We've been laying a dozen arguments down here, and that isn't one of them. You're making things up again, because your made-up version of reality makes you feel better than the real reality.

Yeah, Liberal.

269

How does dignity and a living wage translate into free benefits far above and beyond the usual private sector benefits? How is it just to force people who pay at least some of their own insurance and retirement to pay for a better package for these teachers and University of Wisconsin staff?

It's not just, it's not "Christian" and it shouldn't be legal unless a state is FLUSH with money and can give away those kind of perks.

270

Nobody is losing collective bargaining in Wisconsin. People just aren't getting the bargain they want.

^THIS

Public-sector employees are free to seek employment elsewhere if they don't like their employers' wage and benefit packages.

and ^THIS

I think the union (corporate, not the actual employees) are mostly scared of being voted out at the end of a year.

271 "But that's not what actually happens. What actually happens is people are forced to pay for political lobbying they don't want, forced into unemployment if they won't pay for that and representation which as often or not serves to harm employment in general by raising prices, restricting employment in a sector, disincentivising productivity in favor of seniority, and in my experience doing as much harm to employees with strikes and corrupt negotiations as good." I actually agree. As someone who believes Unions have done a great deal of good, it particularly saddens me to know that they have become so corrupt. It makes it difficult to defend the things I believe are true and good about labor organization. But I do believe that workers should have the right to organize. I don't believe they have the right to live fat off the taxpayer dollar (and would contend that most don't) or use compulsory dues to manipulate politicians. But any large organization with money is prone to this, and many right-wing organizations are guilty of the same thing. I am against corruption, not Unions, or, for that matter, conservatives.

272 Randall: "I'm sure that's true, but the main argument against Unions seems to be 'I got mine, if you aren't so lucky then forget you.'"

What? I do declare that's what the unions are saying to taxpayers.

273 This shit does not happen in TX, because the law is set up to allow deadly force to be used to defend yourself or others. And also so that no one can sue you for doing so.

274 That's why the union bosses HATE the idea of losing the automatic dues deduction from members paychecks.  Not only would they face possible revolt from the membership during each annual re-certification vote, members would also have a financial vote by deciding whether or not to pay their dues.  That is, da money vote referendum on the Union leadership's conduct.

275 "How does dignity and a living wage translate into free benefits far above and beyond the usual private sector benefits? How is it just to force people who pay at least some of their own insurance and retirement to pay for a better package for these teachers and University of Wisconsin staff? It's not just, it's not "Christian" and it shouldn't be legal unless a state is FLUSH with money and can give away those kind of perks." You might find that these Union people agree with you, they are willing to double their contributions to pension and health-care, so long as their right to bargain collectively is not eradicated.

276 and I believe other Americans deserve the freedom to collectively bargain. Just as I believe you guys have the right to private sector jobs without representation.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:28 PM (zrqN0)

Where's the freedom for the employee that doesn't want to be in a union, but has no choice if they take a job with a company that is union controlled?

Unions aren't about fucking freedom.  They are about control.   Control of the minion's money to influence government and politicians, and to line the union boss's pockets. 

Don't give me that shit about freedom.  That's nothing but a leftist meme to gain control.

277 "I'm horny."

I'm thinking about it.

278

I'm sure that's true, but the main argument against Unions seems to be "I got mine, if you aren't so lucky then forget you." I simply disagree with that.

Try again.

 

It's "I don't have mine in this shitty economy and I don't think you should be robbing me of what little I do have to provide you with a better life than I can afford myself."

 You've spent too much time absorbing the left's propaganda that everyone is rich besides the unions and other protected groups.

279 This isn't about the union members at all, (as usual) it's about the Union getting its share of the members' paycheck$, and keeping that cash flow rolling in with as little resistance as possible.

280 277Where's the freedom for the employee that doesn't want to be in a union, but has no choice if they take a job with a company that is union controlled?

Can't wait for an answer on this one....

281 Oh, and Randall, unions have always been corrupt.   Always.   From the beginning of their beginning.

282 This isn't about the union members at all, (as usual) it's about the Union getting its share of the members' paycheck$, and keeping that cash flow rolling in with as little resistance as possible.

Union members are simply the individual units that get the money that gets creamed off to the union and the politicians it seeks to buy.  The real beneficiaries to all this are politicians and union leadership.  The union proles only get buttered enough for the lamprey eelite (see what I did there?) to feed on.

283 Can't wait for an answer on this one....

Posted by: Portnoy at February 20, 2011 11:07 PM (azgo2)

Not holding my breath.

284 Portnoy: "Can't wait for an answer on this one..."

Wait. I know. You're free not to work for that unionized company. Freedom is in the eye of the beholder.

285 So, who pays corporate income tax? In Wisconsin: "Foreign corporations which are not subject to the franchise tax and which own property in Wisconsin or whose business in Wisconsin is exclusively in foreign or interstate commerce. The tax rate is 7.9%. Income from obligations of the United States government and its instrumentalities isn't included in income under the income tax law."

286 281--CWA vs. Beck   (They still have to pay) 

287

The bill allows them to collectively bargain for wages.

Double their contributions to pension and health care? What is the going rate now? What would doubling it consist of ? How long would they agree to that and not simply strike again, or call in sick, or use whatever other intimidation and thuggery they enjoy tomorrow?

SEIU has taken to storming people's private residences. Is that next?

The goal is to overwhelm the system so that it can no longer function and provoke a crisis. They are well on their way to doing so.

288 Can't wait for an answer on this one....

I'm still waiting for the admission that folks in right-to-work states don't have to crap in a shoebox.

289 "Where's the freedom for the employee that doesn't want to be in a union, but has no choice if they take a job with a company that is union controlled?" Seems like your hypothetical employee chose to join an industry that had unionized.

290 "Double their contributions to pension and health care? What is the going rate now? What would doubling it consist of ? How long would they agree to that and not simply strike again, or call in sick, or use whatever other intimidation and thuggery they enjoy tomorrow? SEIU has taken to storming people's private residences. Is that next?" Read Walkers bill, because that's what doubling it would consist of. They are agreeing to his terms. Would love to see relevant evidence of SEIU storming private residences in Wisconsin. No strikes have occurred to date, and the teachers have chosen to use all four "political action" days allowed by law to protest. On Tuesday, if the teachers do not return, it will be considered a strike and Scott Walker will file an injunction.

291 Dagny, the unions, according to Randy here, allow you and I to take a dump indoors so they have no problem allowing people to protest.

292 No strikes have occurred to date, and the teachers have chosen to use all four "political action" days allowed by law to protest.

So why the need for doctor's notes?

293

Union members are simply the individual units that get the money that gets creamed off to the union and the politicians it seeks to buy. 

Yes.  My point is actually that in WI, the real issue is not being discussed--the union leadership is not liking the possibility that they face potential decertification once a year, coupled with employees actually having to send in checks (vs. payroll deduction) for their dues.  They'll have to 'part with the money in person' and that'll make them think, and then they'll get to vote in private without having to (horrors, maybe get seen doing it...) gather signatures for a decert. election.....

294

"Foreign corporations which are not subject to the franchise tax and which own property in Wisconsin or whose business in Wisconsin is exclusively in foreign or interstate commerce. The tax rate is 7.9%. Income from obligations of the United States government and its instrumentalities isn't included in income under the income tax law."

Why are you talking about foreign corporations?

They asked you who paid corporate income tax? Not who paid foreign corporation taxes. Even so, who pays the taxes? Do you think taxes decrease the profit of the corporations?

 

295 Meanwhile, because 14 Democratic  state senators are out of state and on the lam, the state government of Wisconsin is unable to pass a budget.  Why are they on the run?  Is this what Randall means by collective "bargaining"?

296 Seems like your hypothetical employee chose to join an industry that had unionized.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:11 PM (zrqN0)

See, that's always the answer, but it's bullshit.   A teacher may actually want to be a teacher and give a shit more about her/his students that they do about being in a union.   But, in WI, do they have a choice if they want to work in a public school?   What if they're working in a company that a union bullies their way into?   Does that employee have a choice to opt out, or will their union dues be stolen from them without giving them a choice?

Freedom.   Do you know what that means?

297 I actually agree. As someone who believes Unions have done a great deal of good, it particularly saddens me to know that they have become so corrupt. It makes it difficult to defend the things I believe are true and good about labor organization.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:01 PM (zrqN0)

Remember that huge screed I wrote about how leftists will push the same ideals forever, no matter what the real-world consequences are? Because the *IDEAD* matters to them and the *consequences* are just grubby details for other people to deal with.

We can't afford the consequences of your bad ideas anymore.

298 Enjoying the "bat the troll" game. At least this one seems semi-coherent and hasn't invoked a comic-book character in his arguments. Yet.

299 Randall, you don't really know what's in the bill, do you?

300 The unions have been trying to get into the coal mines out in Wyoming for 30 years now...so far...no sale. I mean, they have the right (GOD GIVEN AMEN!!) to organize but so far have been told to go fuck them selves.  Imagine that. 

301 BTW--I live in a right-to-work state and I don't have to crap in a shoebox.  Furthermore, the garbage gets picked up regularly and the streets are plowed when necessary.

302 In a nutshell the unions should not be allowed a stranglehold on a public service where they are demanding benefits above the usual and typical standard of the citizens of that state. Period. Codify it.

303

i really don't care to snag my teeth about unions with exception of public unions.

where the users of state items usually demanded by law, also have to support the union and actually help them pay for cronies and misdeeds-corruption and buying politicians and their stifling ideas  with my dollar.

304 Hell, which state was it where the boyscouts were prevented from picking up trash because the unions had a fit?

305

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:09 PM (zrqN0)

I *knew* you would get the answer COMPLETELY wrong. I had *zero* doubt of that. You didn't even understand the question.

I *knew* you'd get it wrong because you live (mentally) on the left/libertarian "fear the corporation" axis of the political spectrum, and certain things are simply outside your comprehension as a result.

From the other things you've said you might even be in the "communitarian" pocket, which is a bit of a weird place.

Oh, what the hell. Honey Badger don't care.

Here's a hint - you named who *collects* the tax, not who *pays* it.

306 "I'm still waiting for the admission that folks in right-to-work states don't have to crap in a shoebox." Actually, some of them probably do. 7 of the 10 poorest states in the nation are right to work states (MS, AR, AL, OK, TN, SC, LA). 9 out of the 10 richest states are forced-Union states (MD, NJ, CT, AK, HI, MA, NH, CA, DE.)

307 Posted by: Steph at February 20, 2011 11:16 PM (AkdC5)

I think in Minnesota, a teacher can choose not to join the union but the are still required to cough up 80% of the dues.  There's some freedom for ya.

308 "I *knew* you would get the answer COMPLETELY wrong. I had *zero* doubt of that. You didn't even understand the question." I'm sure that whatever your answer is, its very clever. Please, do share.

309 It's absolutely imperative that the unions not be allowed to suspend secret ballots nor require union dues nor have those dues deducted from pay. How in the hell did that ever happen in the first place? Pure evil.

310 Randall, you left out California and Michigan.

311

I was there yesterday. It was as described. My husband and I had to walk through the union crowds to enter and leave the TEA party-Support Walker area. It was pure intimidation. I am union and I support Walker. I can't believe anyone would choose the other side.

Union goons intimidating and shouting down free speech.

Union thug unplugging the speakers to the TEA party event- against free speech. As Andrew Breitbart said, the worse thing we did was be filmed cleaning up after ourselves.

Walker and the Senate Republicans need to vote the dems in contempt and vote. In the mean time they should be voting in all non-fiscal legislation they can, e.g. voter ID, and stupid but important legislation like allowing us to use regular light bulbs and phosphate based dish soap. I like my house bright and clean.

Just start voting and ignore them. The teachers union has asked the teachers to stop abandoning their children and return to work. They know they are losing the PR war. 

312

@Dagney, #125 - I'm unable to quit the union, and they take 2-3% of my income forcibly for their PAC.  That is the main reason for the union reaction, since this bill will make union dues voluntary and require a yearly election to renew union certification.   Us teachers will be able to off-set paying an increased share for our benefits by declining to donate our income to the unions.

And in response to the honorable men who can't fathom restraining themselves if their wives were pushed (or my favorite, a lefty POS put his hands on his wife), I thought I'd share that my husband is over 6'3, 300 lbs, and nicknamed "One Punch" in the Navy since he never had to hit someone twice.  It was an extreme show of restraint to make it through the mob and not succumb to their provocation.  I wish I'd had the wherewithall to think like CAC, and practiced some good Scout knot-tying.  Next time.

I feel very naive, even ignorant, reading these comments and this blog.  But I will quickly wise up.

And your daughter, Heather, is a wonderful friend with fabulous political links =)

313 Randall: "Actually, some of them probably do. 7 of the 10 poorest states in the nation are right to work states..."

Some of the "poorest" people have stereos, 60" television, and cable. Meaningless statistic.

314 Oh, wait, there's California - one of the "richest" states.  So, how's their state budget thing working out?

315 Are you subtracting debt from income for richest and poorest states? How's California doing again? How odd to be bankrupt and one of the "richest"? Of course let's not include any demographic, geologic, population or natural resource factors into how "poor" or "rich" a state is, let's assume it's unions that make it rich.

316 BTW: In Wisconsin, my nursing union allows me to "opt out" and pay dues but not be in the union. BUT, they take away my malpractice insurance. How nice. If I have a problem they won't help, I won't be insured and they still get to siphon off my dues for the dem party. What a racket!

317 313 That was Portnoy at 125

318 "I was there yesterday. It was as described. My husband and I had to walk through the union crowds to enter and leave the TEA party-Support Walker area. It was pure intimidation. I am union and I support Walker. I can't believe anyone would choose the other side." You had to walk through Union crowds because a huge majority of the 70,000 people there were pro-Union. I don't think it should surprise anyone that when a group of people who were bussed in from out of state to disagree with people who had already been there for three days are picked on a little. A lot of you here on this board are just as unwelcoming, and I totally expected that. The fact is that Walker supporters held their rally, walked around calling teachers and cops and firefighters cowards and thugs, and nothing happened to them, other than some dumbass UW student thought he could get on the news by unplugging a speaker. I have seen very little actual intimidation from EITHER side when I have been down there. When someone comes by on a camel and hits you in the face with a stick covered in barbed-wire, then you can complain about intimidation. I say the same thing to lefties here who try to make a bullshit comparison to Egypt. This is a peaceful public protest, and I think it shows that we are becoming more like Sunnis and Shiites here that people on both sides are so rabidly ready to cast each other as the enemy.

319 313 It was me with the knot tying!

320 9 out of the 10 richest states are forced-Union states (MD, NJ, CT, AK, HI, MA, NH, CA, DE.)

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:22 PM (zrqN0)

Yeah, those states are really rich.   What's happening in NJ?   Is it a rich state or asshole deep in debt?   6th most debt ridden.

How about CA?   Rich?   Asshole deep in debt?   What's Brown thinking about doing there with unions?

NH?   7th most debt ridden state.

DE.  5th

CT. 4th

AK  2nd

MA  1st

Want to try, again?

 

321 What the unions don't like is a collective bargaining arrangement where the employer has just as much right to say yes or no as the unions do. They prefer to be able to dictate rather than negotiate, through the threat of striking without being replaced.

The tables are being turned in Wisconsin, through the electoral process, and the unions don't like it. The employers, ie, the voters electing a GOP Governor and Legislature who campaigned on this issue, have decided to take away that threat of striking without being replaced.

If the budget repair bill passes as is in Wisconsin the unions will still be free to request whatever they want, they just won't have the threat of being able to strike without being replaced. They'll have to earn what they want by becoming irreplaceable on their own merits within the employment marketplace.

322

 ..7 of the 10 poorest states...

...were not made poor by right-to-work statutes.

323 309 "I *knew* you would get the answer COMPLETELY wrong. I had *zero* doubt of that. You didn't even understand the question."

I'm sure that whatever your answer is, its very clever. Please, do share.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:24 PM (zrqN0)

Why? You wouldn't understand it anyway.

I'll bet everyone else here knows the answer to "who pays corporate income tax?"

I'm giggling over the fact that you need someone to tell you, you really can't puzzle it out. I even gave you a hint. Heck, it wasn't a hint, it was a brick.

Dude, you are great, you know, I haven't actually laughed out loud today until now?

324

I don't think it should surprise anyone that when a group of people who were bussed in from out of state to disagree with people who had already been there for three days are picked on a little

We all know unions were being BUSED in. Unless you mean kissing?

325 Posted by: WIse cracker at February 20, 2011 11:26 PM (MYHqA)

Again, funny how that works.  You don't have a right to not collectively bargain.

326 "Are you subtracting debt from income for richest and poorest states? How's California doing again? How odd to be bankrupt and one of the "richest"? Of course let's not include any demographic, geologic, population or natural resource factors into how "poor" or "rich" a state is, let's assume it's unions that make it rich." Pardon me, I should have been clearer. Those are the states with the highest and lowest personal income. And CA is broke because it continued to borrow against the future believing that growth would be endless, which it turned out not to be when the American financial system nearly destroyed the economy by doing roughly the same thing.

327

322-- They prefer to be able to dictate rather than negotiate, through the threat of striking without being replaced.

Ding! Ding!  *handing you the 64K and a cigar*

328 Randall, how many of those 'for' the unions protesting in WI actually live in WI?  We're not so stupid we don't know that thousands were bussed in.  Heck, we've got pics of the buses.

329 "We all know unions were being BUSED in. Unless you mean kissing?" Yeah, bussed in from their homes in Wisconsin. Not Kansas. And the Union people aren't being paid $50 a day to be there.

330 I don't think it should surprise anyone that when a group of people who were bussed in from out of state to disagree with people who had already been there for three days are picked on a little.

Oh, here I'm gonna call hypocrite on you, with your Obama/DNC backing and Unions bussing-in "troops" out marching to keep more of the taxpayers hard-earned money versus you accusing ANYONE else of staging an event.

A lot of you here on this board are just as unwelcoming, and I totally expected that.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:32 PM (zrqN0)

Dude, we practically rolled out the red carpet for you, stop whining, it's pathetic.

Just because you're wrong about everything is no reason to get petulant.

331 The fact is that Walker supporters held their rally, walked around calling teachers and cops and firefighters cowards and thugs, and nothing happened to them, other than some dumbass UW student thought he could get on the news by unplugging a speaker.

Randall, you're losing it.  Take my advice and get that fake doctor excuse.  Take a few days off.

332 Not that it matters to any of you, but I am far from a Leftist Socialist, I just happen to believe that this country has benefitted from Unions.

I'll meet you halfway, and say that I think there was a case to be made for unions in the WV coal mines in the early 20th century.

I agree that they have been seriously corrupted and I understand that pensions and benefits eat up huge amounts of state budgets.

God bless ya, sweet pea, you're almost there.

But the right to collectively bargain

Got no argument about the right to bargain, though right is not the word I'd choose

 for the right to dignity and a living wage are for me inherently American virtues.

Here's the rub for me.......dignity is earned. And you don't get it from your boss.

My parents and grandparents are the most humble, dignified people you'd ever want to meet, despite the lack of both electricity and indoor plumbing most of their lives (and peeing inside was something I did only at school til I was 10)  Are you saying you can only be dignified if you have a union job???

Do you have ANY idea of what would happen if everyone in America was making 20 dollars an hour, or whatever amount you consider to be a living wage??  How much money would a newspaper subscription cost of the paper boy was making 20 dollars an hour?? If Wal-Mart had to start paying everyone that much? Or the part time clerk at the McDonald's??

And if you're paying the french fry guy 20 bucks an hour, don't you think the more skilled laborers might think they need a huge raise, so they make just a tad more than the crew at McDonald's, or the bagger at Wal-Mart? Let alone because they won't be able to afford buying anything at either place, given that the prices just sky-rocketed.

333

Pardon me, I should have been clearer. Those are the states with the highest and lowest personal income.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:38 PM (zrqN0)

And those with the highest income are union controlled and asshole deep in debt.   FU.  The states that are right to work are not going to bail them out. 

334 How much union dues-money was paid out to those bussed-in protesters this weekend?  Suppose they were there just for the fun of it?

335

We all know unions were being BUSED in. Unless you mean kissing?

Posted by: dagny at February 20, 2011 11:35 PM (XW2az)

Damn, bad spelling is contagious. People on the internet spell so badly it makes me question my own spelling.

336 "Randall, how many of those 'for' the unions protesting in WI actually live in WI? We're not so stupid we don't know that thousands were bussed in. Heck, we've got pics of the buses." Show me. I live one block from the Masonic lodge where the Union members first started meeting. Remember, I live here. Yes, I am sure a lot of looky-loos came down to wave their clever liberal signs and get on TV, but they all showed up when the cameras did, just like the Walker supporters. For at least four days beforehand the protests were people from Wisconsin coming to engage in the Wisconsin tradition of supporting organized labor.

337

Randall , as for the name calling I wouldn't know. But you were hanging out with bused in union goons.  it's not exactly like we don't know what seiu and freinds have been up to the last 3 years .

as for teachers, police, firemen, i'm glad they are there, although Their first job is to the public  That Pays them ..and whom they represent as a state worker. (not the union)

the union and the demands for more when we cannot give more is the issue here.

338

NH?   7th most debt ridden state.

DE.  5th

CT. 4th

AK  2nd

MA  1st

And CA is broke because it continued to borrow against the future believing that growth would be endless, which it turned out not to be when the American financial system nearly destroyed the economy by doing roughly the same thing.

Duh.

But the unions should be able to continue to push the state governments into the hole? Can you not connect that the financing of debt in order to pay entitlements union or otherwise has to stop or there will be NO entitlements? You can't raise taxes any higher, it isn't there.

 

339 Yeah, bussed in from their homes in Wisconsin. Not Kansas. And the Union people aren't being paid $50 a day to be there.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:39 PM (zrqN0)

No, I think a fraudulent sick day goes for more than $50 for those folks.

340 Yeah, bussed in from their homes in Wisconsin. Not Kansas. And the Union people aren't being paid $50 a day to be there.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:39 PM (zrqN0)

You went there?   You really went there?   Do you think we all have been living under a rock for the last week?   

341 Sorry, I missed the part about the protestors not being paid $50/day to be there--so, I'm guessing they were drawing their normal hourly wages?

342 And CA is broke because it continued to borrow against the future believing that growth would be endless, which it turned out not to be when the American financial system nearly destroyed the economy by doing roughly the same thing.

And it certainly can't have anything to do with funding state employee payrolls and pension funds, can it?   Why, Governor Walker would be derelict in his duty if he were to follow California's brilliant public worker employment policies, wouldn't he?

343 "How much union dues-money was paid out to those bussed-in protesters this weekend? Suppose they were there just for the fun of it?" No, they are there because they believe strongly in their cause. I respect those who support Walker that actually stayed around when all the Tea Partiers left, because they obviously care and believe in what they are saying. Those people stuck around. The Tea Party did not. I understand that none of you agree with these people, but most of them are real people who simply feel passionately about organized labor. Many of them are not particularly eloquent, which in this country is certainly OK. But at least admit that they are doing what they are doing because the feel passionately about what their Governor is trying to do, and argue with that.

344 And CA is broke because it continued to borrow against the future believing that growth would be endless, which it turned out not to be when the American financial system nearly destroyed the economy by doing roughly the same thing.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:38 PM (zrqN0)

And why did they do that?

...

You still don't get the corporate tax thing?

345 Randall: "And the Union people aren't being paid $50 a day to be there."

I dunno. Could be more. Is that the daily salary for walking away from their jobs?

346 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0DuqAi6gFQ

347 Waiting for Randall to address the 'wrongness' of annual secret-ballot recertification?

348 Posted by: Steph at February 20, 2011 11:33 PM (AkdC5)

Thanks for looking that up, I was gonna check that but I'm lazy.

Maybe I should join a union.

349 Public sector unions should be outlawed, or eventually, well...you know

Boned.

350 "And it certainly can't have anything to do with funding state employee payrolls and pension funds, can it? Why, Governor Walker would be derelict in his duty if he were to follow California's brilliant public worker employment policies, wouldn't he?" California is screwed for a million different reasons, and you can point to whichever one is convenient to your argument and say "that's THE reason." I don't live in California, and don't plan on living there, so I don't feel the need to defend it. Sorry.

351

Randall, you actually got something right.   They feel more passionately about the union than they do their students.   That is what they have shown this week.  It's not about the students.   It's about thier own damn selves.

Oh, and some of your doctors in that state are real pieces of work, too.  Nothing like a little fraud when it comes to keeping that union going.

352 bahaha

353
And CA is broke because it continued to borrow against the future believing that growth would be endless, which it turned out not to be when the American financial system nearly destroyed the economy by doing roughly the same thing.

I suppose being the largest welfare state in the union, having the one of the largest amount of illegal alien populations in the country, being in the top three of largest amount of unfunded public sector pension debt has nothing to do with CA's problems?

Not to mention being populated by complete idiots who thought their 900 sq ft house in an average-at-best neighborhood was really going to stay valued at 750,000? Or the that regulations have shut down manufacturing jobs, oil production, and hundreds of square miles of what was once the most productive farm land in the world???

354 Were the students that were ripped out of the classroom to go march in solidarity with the teachers also paid $50? You know those students that didn't even know why they were protesting??

Because you know, ripping students out of school is ultimately....

Say it with me, Gang!

FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!1!11!

355

All the unions that came to Ed Shultz's little crazy-thon on the mall were bused in and were paid. Why would it be any different there when there was an actual threat?

Oh yeah, passion.

Snort

356 Randall was edumicated by those lovely union teachers, weren't he?   You know, the ones that can't spell negotiation?

357 Randall, you actually got something right.   They feel more passionately about the union than they do their students.   That is what they have shown this week.  It's not about the students.   It's about thier own damn selves

This.

The MFM has been having a lot of fun with the new 'school bullies are EVERYWHERE' meme. When in fact, the biggest school bully is the NEA and other local unions. It has been for years. You know it. I know it. They know it. And at the end of the day, the just don't care.

358

Oh, and some of your doctors in that state are real pieces of work, too. 

Turns out that the bill includes University of Wisconsin faculty (and med center/school). Surprise surprise surprise.

That may be what we have here. For a troll.

359 "Waiting for Randall to address the 'wrongness' of annual secret-ballot recertification?" Thanks for waiting! Sure, it seems suspicious that Unions have secret-ballot recertification. Anything "secret" is suspicious. The reason these certification votes are secret is to protect Union workers from pressure, both from Unions and from employers, into voting a certain way. Put another way, its very similar to the secret-ballot system by which we choose all of our elected officials.

360

Randall was edumicated by those lovely union teachers, weren't he?   You know, the ones that can't spell negotiation?

Well, he can't spell "bussed" (bused). But that is a common error.

361 "children,  these people don't understand what i go through everyday for nine months a year! i know some of them don't have much, but you know how much MY job means to you, come help me fight them, here , hold this sign (walker is hitler) good now look passionate about my job. thanks , that willbe an A."

362 most of them are real people who simply feel passionately about organized labor.

I don't think you'll get an argument there.

What we are saying is that organized labor is bad for business, breeds the kind of belief system that makes decent people somehow come to think it's okay to screw everyone else as long as they get theirs, festers huge entitlement mentalities, and suppresses critical thinking skills, as well as the ability to do basic math.

363

Eh, gotta work in the a.m.

'Night all.

364 Posted by: dagny at February 20, 2011 11:53 PM (XW2az)

Some where in an earlier post some one said 'Union Lawyer'...I'm going with that. What ever it is...there's a financial stake it it.

365

Turns out that the bill includes University of Wisconsin faculty (and med center/school). Surprise surprise surprise.

That may be what we have here. For a troll.

Posted by: dagny at February 20, 2011 11:53 PM (XW2az)

I just happened to send a little video evidence along with the names & pics of those teachers to the dean at UW.   And, to the head of the family practice where they practice.  Then, I sent the same to the medical board.

Probably won't do any good, but if that's the kind of professors/doctors that teach at UW what kind of doctors are they producing?   And who the hell wants to go to that family practice where the doctors have no problem committing fraud?

366 "All the unions that came to Ed Shultz's little crazy-thon on the mall were bused in and were paid. Why would it be any different there when there was an actual threat? Oh yeah, passion. Snort" You can say that, but I know you are wrong, because I was actually there. Ed Schultz is a grand-standing blowhard who came to score some points off of this, which makes me mad too. But you might as well stop trying to convince me that any significant number of these people are not legitimate protesters, because I know that's not true, and you are surmising.

367 But at least admit that they are doing what they are doing because the feel passionately about what their Governor is trying to do, and argue with that.

Meanwhile, 14 Democrat state senators are on the lam outside the Wisconsin state lines because the passionate people of Wisconsin elected Walker to the governorship and, at the same time, sent so many Republicans to the legislature that the GOP took control of both the state house and senate chambers.  Your side lost and you can't deal with it.

368 What ever it is...there's a financial stake it it.

Not sure I agree.....I choose to believe that Randall is one of us, and just doesn't know it yet. These things take time. He's a far better breed of visitor than we normally get here.

369 Put another way, its very similar to the secret-ballot system by which we choose all of our elected officials.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:54 PM (zrqN0)

So, why are they so frightened of having to do that once a year?

370

ok, one more...

some one said 'Union Lawyer'

I would've guessed someone a bit lower:  shop steward or someone with basic 'organizing' training, like a recruiter.  Full of the refined versions of their slogans.

371 But you might as well stop trying to convince me that any significant number of these people are not legitimate protesters, because I know that's not true, and you are surmising.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:57 PM (zrqN0)

Yep, all of them just happened to have the same red shirts, and professional signage.   Yep.  Did those teachers have them all waiting in a closet for just such a time?

372 Posted by: Steph at February 20, 2011 11:59 PM (AkdC5)

Rhetorical right???

373

You can say that, but I know you are wrong, because I was actually there. Ed Schultz is a grand-standing blowhard who came to score some points off of this, which makes me mad too. But you might as well stop trying to convince me that any significant number of these people are not legitimate protesters, because I know that's not true, and you are surmising.

Liar.

There were scads of local interviews of the attendees. They didn't even stay for the whole thing. I saw their pre-boxed union provided lunches littered all over the bridges and bike paths leading to the mall. It was a filthy disgusting mess. I watched them get off the buses and walk to the memorial in their matching shirts. I am not surmising and they were anything but legitimate. They are paid, they are tools of their unions and their bosses are only out to get what they can get by corruption, coersion, and the threat of violence.

374

Thanks for waiting! Sure, it seems suspicious that Unions have secret-ballot recertification. Anything "secret" is suspicious. The reason these certification votes are secret is to protect Union workers from pressure, both from Unions and from employers, into voting a certain way. Put another way, its very similar to the secret-ballot system by which we choose all of our elected officials.

No, the secret-ballot itself is not 'suspicious' to me (nice try in twisting that, though!)  Why does the union oppose the proposed annual secret balloting? 

375 Rhetorical right???

Posted by: Portnoy at February 21, 2011 12:01 AM (azgo2)

Maybe for you and me, but I bet Randall has a good explanation.

376 Well, Portnoy, maybe he doesn't.

377

Bus

Pre-made professional signage (left on the ground)

Boxed lunch (remains left on the ground, river, bridges, memorial etc)

Leaders with bull horns

Name tags (I guess if they got lost)

Predetermined places to congregate

Passion     Lol

378 Already did. Average school teacher salary in Madison is $51k.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 10:48 PM (zrqN0)

Bullshit. With bennies it's over $100K. That's the issue.

379 "What we are saying is that organized labor is bad for business, breeds the kind of belief system that makes decent people somehow come to think it's okay to screw everyone else as long as they get theirs, festers huge entitlement mentalities, and suppresses critical thinking skills, as well as the ability to do basic math." Ok, Unions are bad for business, but so are taxes and weekends and child labor laws and health benefits. I have no problem with private business, I own one and I work for one. But we can't pretend that business has a conscience. We have a conscience, and we must use it to put natural limits on business to insure against monopolies and massive income gaps. As far as breeding a selfish mindset, I couldn't possibly argue that this wasn't to a degree true. For every example I could possibly come up with saying that Unions cause workers to feel united and empowered and have the ability to give their children a better life, you could show me an example of Unions abusing their power. Both of us have a point. But I have heard defenders of the private sector and the free market argue that its all about "individual responsibility" and "why should my hard-earned dollars pay for sick/poor/lazy people." But you can't tell me that free-market economics doesn't encourage the exact same, "I got mine, screw you" mindset. A lot of people seem to believe that if you are poor it means you are lazy or stupid or immoral, and I do not believe that. I don't think you can support your last point, so I won't address it. Once again, I am against corruption, greed and a class-based society. I am not against Unions, and I am not against conservatives or corporations.

380 You can say that, but I know you are wrong, because I was actually there.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:57 PM (zrqN0)

You do know we had people from this site there and reporting back to us, didn't you?

Or is that another surprise?

Still no idea about the corporate income tax, huh?

381 Posted by: Stillwater at February 21, 2011 12:03 AM (0GpN4)

Better question yet...Why have the Democrats been trying to do away with the secret ballot altogether with that Card Check horse shit???

382

They actually want "card check" because it's EASIER to get people to sign a card (which the union bosses can see) than to vote in secret).

 

383 That was kind of my point.

384 because I know that's not true, and you are surmising.

Posted by: Randall at February 20, 2011 11:57 PM (zrqN0)

Uh, Randy, darlin'. These folks were bused in from out of town, and many of them congregated at the Alliant Energy Center. And gosh, I know this because, gee, I was there. K? Quit lying to make your points and maybe we will tolerate you a bit better.

385

Once again, I am against corruption, greed and a class-based society. I am not against Unions, and I am not against conservatives or corporations.

But you went to the Special Ed Shultz rally? He loves conservatives too, right? That's a long trip from Wisconsin for someone who doesn't hate conservatives.

386 Both of us have a point. But I have heard defenders of the private sector and the free market argue that its all about "individual responsibility" and "why should my hard-earned dollars pay for sick/poor/lazy people." But you can't tell me that free-market economics doesn't encourage the exact same, "I got mine, screw you" mindset. A lot of people seem to believe that if you are poor it means you are lazy or stupid or immoral, and I do not believe that.

So you support the legislation's requirement for the annual majority-vote re-certificatione that gives more power to the union's membership (and lessens the power of the union bosses), and the legislation's requirement that mandatory union dues deductions be eliminated?  Because more power and money to the people (membership) and less power for the bosses seems to be your constant trope.

387 Very much like Honey Badger, Reality don't give a shit.

Gov Walker holds all the cards. He can't lose, and he knows it.

No amount of hysterics by those opposed to him will change the reality of the situation, namely that the Dems are outnumbered in the WI Legislature by the duly elected GOP.

The longer those AWOL Dems put off their inevitable defeat on this issue by refusing to return to their paid constitutional duties and face that reality the more devastating that defeat will be.

388

But you can't tell me that free-market economics doesn't encourage the exact same, "I got mine, screw you" mindset.

Holy shit, how many times do we have to explain to you that it's the unions who are "I got mine, screw you" mindset. The people want some equity. Stop asking people to pay for benefits that they don't have themselves.

Stop with the evil rich meme too. That won't convince a single person here.

Just who do you think composes the free market? The little monopoly guy? Most of the things you site are codified into law. The unions are out now just for money and power.

389

Let me tell you a little sumpin, sumpin 'bout conservatives, sparky.   We actually give more to charity to help the poor than your lefty buddies.  We actually care more about that personal responsibility thing because it helps to build people up and get them away from that victim mentality that lefties label them with.

In short, conservatives actually care more about the individual.

390 So what's your opinion on the Running 14 state senate Democrats, Randall?

391 And look at all the public sector unions that received ObamaCare waivers.

392 I don't think you can support your last point, so I won't address it.

If you meant me and my last point about math, what I mean is, they can't figure out that the pensions and wages they have been used to are not sustainable any more. And the answer is always to raise taxes, and my argument is that we already pay their salaries, and have been paying their benefits for years, and that it is no longer feasible.

I am against corruption, greed and a class-based society

I think a certain amount of greed, corruption and class is an inherent part of being human, and I am happy to take the bad that comes with the overwhelmingly good of being free of a nanny-state government, that, however well-intentioned it is, eventually destroys individual freedom and crumbles under its own bloat.

393 Ok, Unions are bad for business, but so are taxes and weekends and child labor laws and health benefits. I have no problem with private business, I own one and I work for one. But we can't pretend that business has a conscience. We have a conscience, and we must use it to put natural limits on business to insure against monopolies and massive income gaps.

Posted by: Randall at February 21, 2011 12:07 AM (zrqN0)

Businesses don't have a conscience but governments and unions do.

History is looking at you like you just walked into the room with two heads and a pet monkey with three heads.

394 I was there all day Saturday on both sides of the Capitol.  I would love to know which rally you actually attended, because the rally described here bears absolutely no resemblance to the peaceful assemblage I witnessed. 

In addition, the Madison Police, who are exempt from the measures of this "budget repair bill" would (in this official statement: http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/view.cfm?news_id=2512) disagree with the contention that "I saw middle class, working class people who looked liked my sister, my mother, my son or daughter, my neighbors... being taunted and intimidated by a mob hoping to provoke mayhem or violence."

Or are the police also part of this insidious conspiracy?

395 "No, the secret-ballot itself is not 'suspicious' to me (nice try in twisting that, though!) Why does the union oppose the proposed annual secret balloting? " Obviously, because it weakens the power of Unions. Seriously the answer to that one is so obvious I can only imagine you are asking so that you can attack my response. As I said though, I am not a Union fanatic, or a Union lawyer, or a troll, or whatever you are fantasizing about. I don't agree with everything the Unions do, and I can't pretend to know everything they do. I have recognized that they can be corrupt, and should take this opportunity to improve themselves. I do not believe that they should be eradicated, and I do not believe that anything that's bad for business is inherently bad. War, for example, is great for business. A lot of this bill's provisions deserve serious debate. But the issue is that this debate has not been allowed to occur, Walker has invited outrage by publicly threatening to sic the National Guard on peaceful protesters, and I find it difficult to believe that this isn't intended in large part to weaken organized labor in the place where it was basically born. He's doing this because the Right eats that macho mandate shit up, and I am sure its been a lot of fun to ridicule my fellow citizens for standing up in what they believe. Trying to make someone angry so that they say something ridiculous is the oldest lawyer trick in the book, and I appreciate those on this board who have tried to have a respectful debate, and I encourage you to continue because I am listening and it is enlightening. We who disagree with you are not all crazy socialist maniacs, and its clear some of you are at least polite. I appreciate that. "Be excellent to each other, and party on dude." I'm out.

396 Nobody on either side of this argument, including the cops, can possibly have been everywhere at once, so there is nothing short of video that can prove any of these accusations.

What I have seen on video proves that doctors on the unions' side were passing out notes, that some young man vandalized the speakers at the Tea Party event, that thousands of teachers who should have been at work were protesting instead, and that 14 Democratic legislators are cowards in great dereliction of their duty.

Randall, goodnight. Thanks for keeping it decent. I hold out great hopes on your coming over to the dark side....

397

Randall, you say you live in WI, and know what is actually going on there.   Well, maybe you should become better informed, and quit listening to the lies.   Walker did not threaten to call  out the National Guard on the protesters.  He spoke to the National Guard about the possibility that they may be needed to guard prisoners if the guards walked out in protest about the bill.

It's kind of a shame that someone halfway across the US knows more about what's going on in your state than you do.

398 Teaparties aint reacting. Its the Socialist teachers reacting to someone the Tea party elected

399 Oh, he knew.  He's a professional.

400 "Businesses don't have a conscience but governments and unions do. History is looking at you like you just walked into the room with two heads and a pet monkey with three heads." One last thing, I couldn't help myself: Unions, for all their ills, were INVENTED to protect the rights of people who work for a living against incorporated wealth. Money has not conscience. The point of a Union is to insure that people who do not individually have the means to demand justice in the workplace have a means to do so. They are not perfect, but they are necessary. I do not believe that corporations, out of the goodness of their hearts, would ever provide fair conditions for their workers. If you want to claim that modern private industry is capable of this, I would argue that Union victories like the weekend, the paid holiday, and the eight hour day, are the reason. They would not have done that on their own. People get extremely rich because all they want in the world is to be extremely rich. Its not hard to get very wealthy if you don't give a shit about anything else. History has shown this to be true, if you bother to take a look at all of it. And my pet monkey has four heads, and is a proud member of Local Deformed Circus Animals 410.

401

Dumbass Romans rather thinks sports. Ok the Barbarians are gonna eat your fanatic asses

 

402 Like I typed, he's a pro.

403 "A lot of this bill's provisions deserve serious debate. But the issue is that this debate has not been allowed to occur, Walker has invited outrage by publicly threatening to sic the National Guard on peaceful protesters, and I find it difficult to believe that this isn't intended in large part to weaken organized labor in the place where it was basically born. He's doing this because the Right eats that macho mandate shit up, and I am sure its been a lot of fun to ridicule my fellow citizens for standing up in what they believe." Posted by: Randall at February 21, 2011 12:28 AM (zrqN0)

Bullshit.

The debate over legislation belongs between the legislators, not between the Governor and the mob, and the Dem legislators fled the debate leaving the mob to take stage.

404 Nice history lesson, but it's not the 1890's any more.

405 I do not believe that corporations, out of the goodness of their hearts, would ever provide fair conditions for their workers. If you want to claim that modern private industry is capable of this, I would argue that Union victories like the weekend, the paid holiday, and the eight hour day, are the reason.

And the Soviet Union was a worker's paradise.

406

Christ hated organized labor. Read the parable of the laborer. Be grateful you can get a job. If the man has to pay more than your worth he goes broke. Then who is gonna pay that wage. Unions didnt secure the rights to better wages. Good laws did.

 

 

407 Randall Politifact said the claim that Walker was threatening to send out the guard was a lie.

408 A lot of this bill's provisions deserve serious debate. But the issue is that this debate has not been allowed to occur,

What the Hell have we been doing for the last week, cooking asparagus?

Oh, and who shut down the political discussion in Wisconsin by walking out on their jobs again?

Walker has invited outrage by publicly threatening to sic the National Guard on peaceful protesters, and I find it difficult to believe that this isn't intended in large part to weaken organized labor in the place where it was basically born.

Maybe because they have too much political influence, far more than any other group including taxpayers, given the fact that we can't stop them from constantly taking more and more and more from us without changing the law. And they use that power to enrich themselves at our expense, which, you know, makes us kind of mad.

He's doing this because the Right eats that macho mandate shit up, and I am sure its been a lot of fun to ridicule my fellow citizens for standing up in what they believe.

Ah, more hypocritical insults form "Mr. Polite." Yeah, the Left never mandates anything, or ridicules people. Yeah, you've got nothing against conservatives, all right.

Trying to make someone angry so that they say something ridiculous is the oldest lawyer trick in the book,

We didn't have to do anything to get you to say something ridiculous.

and I appreciate those on this board who have tried to have a respectful debate, and I encourage you to continue because I am listening and it is enlightening.

Oh, how I wish that were true.

We who disagree with you are not all crazy socialist maniacs, and its clear some of you are at least polite. I appreciate that.

Politesse has its place, but unfortunately the philosophical conflict we find ourselves in is approaching existential, so, you know, we have to do things you might not like. Sucks.

By the way, I don't think you're a maniac, but you've got some epic blinders on and I'm just not sure, despite all the words exchanged, you're really prepared to be part of a conversation. The whole assertions-contrary-to-fact thing is tiresome, as well as the staggering half-knowledge of economics and law, which requires constant correction, which is not even examined not to mention accepted.

Oh, and polite people don't imbue their opponents with motives falsely and then whine about people being impolite. Nothing is more aggravating that passive-aggressive victim-mongering.

You essentially opened your message here by calling the others here who had reported their experiences liars, which is a pretty piss-poor start for someone who claims to value politeness. You know, that old hypocrisy thing.

"Be excellent to each other, and party on dude."

We now understand you much better.

I'm out.

That's been clear for some time.

Posted by: Randall at February 21, 2011 12:28 AM (zrqN0)

Honey Badger waves.

409 "Randall, you say you live in WI, and know what is actually going on there. Well, maybe you should become better informed, and quit listening to the lies. Walker did not threaten to call out the National Guard on the protesters. He spoke to the National Guard about the possibility that they may be needed to guard prisoners if the guards walked out in protest about the bill. It's kind of a shame that someone halfway across the US knows more about what's going on in your state than you do." Actually he asked the National Guard to be on call in case of "labor unrest." Several newspapers that supported Walker have come out against his TACTICS, not the content of his bill but his method of passing it, as has the Madison Chamber of Commerce. In fact, if he wasn't such a dick about it, he probably could have had it passed VERY easily. I am sure you think you know more than me because I disagree with you, and you of course are always right. But we both know that everyone is looking at the same bullshit, biased coverage, just from different sides. I know what I see, and I know my opinions. You know what you read on Drudge.

410

Get selfemployed. Stop being anyones stooge. When you give your name to someone then you give away your right to think freely. What you see is the result. When the BIG BOSS demands you have to put your honor out to be trampled.Always some brainless pig who hates Honey Badgers

 

 

411

Randall, while the unions may have been thought necessary a long time ago, their time has come and is soon to be gone.  There are enough state and federal regulations, now, that workers have all the protection they need from unfair practices by employers.

When unions are doing more harm than good, and bankrupting states it's time for them to go unless on a voluntary basis only.

412

When all you`all are freezing and hungry, Please dont move south!

413 Several newspapers that supported Walker have come out against his TACTICS, not the content of his bill but his method of passing it, as has the Madison Chamber of Commerce.

Huh?  It's not "passing" because 14 Runnin' Dem state senators are hiding out in neighboring states while they collect taxpayer-funded paychecks.

414

Disagree all you want but damn it stop stealing MY money

 

415 "Walker has invited outrage by publicly threatening to sic the National Guard on peaceful protesters"

"Actually he asked the National Guard to be on call in case of "labor unrest."

Which is it, Randall?

416 You know what you read on Drudge.

Posted by: Randall at February 21, 2011 12:43 AM (zrqN0)

Sorry, I don't read Drudge.   And, Democratic legislatures in your own state said that Walker said he was going to do this the entire time he was campaigning, but they didn't want to believe it.  The voters in your state put him in office because he said he was going to do this.   Sorry, your dem buddies didn't believe him, but maybe they're just used to their own lying about everything.

And, you're still wrong about the National Guard.  He never said he was going to use them against the protesters.  It was for use if the guards walked out in protest.   That was the labor unrest he was talking about.

417

I`d just be a really pissed off Badger if the teachers in my school thought thier shyt was more important than my kids education. Want unions?Stop public education and contract it out to private companies and base contract payments on educational performance. Competition always makes for better results.

     Parents ought to go up there and beat the damn teachers and put them back to teaching. Guess you people dont give shit about your kids.HUH?

 

 

418 <em>Unions, for all their ills, were INVENTED to protect the rights of people who work for a living against incorporated wealth. </em>

TNT was invented for construction. Whole lotta dead bodies followed.

<em>Money has not conscience. </em>

Neither does tupperware. A *person* has a conscience, and *people* run companies, unions, and governments. Your assertion that one is morally better than the other is *highly* offensive, especially when your assertion is based on coercive power of law that the other lacks.

<em>The point of a Union is to insure that people who do not individually have the means to demand justice in the workplace have a means to do so. </em>

Public employees have civil service laws, we've been over this like five times. Also that Unions do not achieve what you purport they achieve but something distinctly different.

<em>They are not perfect, but they are necessary. </em>

They were one method to achieve a goal, I think they have turned out to be a bad method.

<em>I do not believe that corporations, out of the goodness of their hearts, would ever provide fair conditions for their workers. </em>

Because, unlike unions and governments, corporations are run by evil demons instead of humans. And therefore it's not in their interest to ensure that productive employees are retained, but rather that they are driven away through poor working conditions to be replaced by people with low self-esteem.

<em>If you want to claim that modern private industry is capable of this, I would argue that Union victories like the weekend, the paid holiday, and the eight hour day, are the reason. They would not have done that on their own. </em>

The funny thing is, I just let myself get sidetracked by this. My bad. You have no argument, because I'm not talking about banning unions, I'm talking about stopping PUBLIC SECTOR unions from ass-raping the public through outrageous influence , pensions, and benefits that no one else (you know, the people paying for all of this) can afford.

<em>People get extremely rich because all they want in the world is to be extremely rich. Its not hard to get very wealthy if you don't give a shit about anything else.</em>

It's also not hard to get very powerful if you don't give a shit about anything else, and Union leaders have become both powerful and rich by monopolizing public service. So powerful and rich that they can get away with enormous transfers of wealth from taxpayers to themselves.

It Will Stop, one way or the other.

<em>History has shown this to be true, if you bother to take a look at all of it. </em>

Seriously, you're killing me now. You can't even get the present straight. Don't stress yourself.

<em>And my pet monkey has four heads, and is a proud member of Local Deformed Circus Animals 410.

Posted by: Randall at February 21, 2011 12:34 AM (zrqN0)</em>

You never did figure out who pays corporate income tax, did you?

I find your claims of being a business owner suspicious, the answer should have been the first thing you thought of.

419 Crowds bused in? Check. Bankrolled and supported by a major political party? Check.  Predominantly white (which means racist by default)? Check.  Comparing opponents to Hitler, Nazis, Fascists and Taliban? Check.  Violent imagery and vitriolic signs? Check.  Promoting and committing fraud? Check.  Making a mockery of democracy while cloaking themselves in patriotism?  Check.  Actual violence and vandalism? Check.  Tea Party?   . . . Nope.

420 You know what you read on Drudge.

Posted by: Randall at February 21, 2011 12:43 AM (zrqN0)

I'll bet a day without telling other people what they *really* mean without consulting them must be like a day without sunshine.

I mean, you opened on that theme, and now you close on it.

Symmetry.

...

Honey Badgers are symmetrical, BTW. Not that they care.

421 WTF is up with the code today? Half my posts show the HTML instead of applying it.

422 A lot of people seem to believe that if you are poor it means you are lazy or stupid or immoral, and I do not believe that.

That almost sounds like you believe that all poor people are unhappy about being poor and that they need someone to stick-up for them.

I'd rather be a bit lazy and a tad stupid, sometimes a whole lot immoral plus be 100% happy with my have-not lot in life, than be bitter and envious and in need of someone to champion their cause for me.

423 Randall,
You discuss unions in a purely theoretical and historical context.  That they protect the working man and prevent child labor.  Here is my experience with a public sector union.  I actually was a member of one for a while.  It isn't a theoretical concept to them.  It isn't about child labor or paid holidays.  It really isn't all that much about working conditions, really, because even the union bosses know that there is very little left to negotiate on that front, regulations have pre-empted any legitimate concern requiring negotiation.  The negotiations that I witnessed were really all about two things: (1) money and (2) power.  That's really it.  Money - wages and benefits.  About 90% of all negotiations centered on pay scales and insurance benefits.  Power - the ability to extract information from management, the ability to extract dues money from unwilling nonmember objectors, and the ability to lobby the state legislature to put the "correct" people in charge of negotiations for management (this was a public sector union, after all).  So please quit it with your theoretical nonsense about unions.  That really is only relevant in textbooks anymore.  The practical, on-the-ground reality about public sector unions is that they exist mainly to extract money from the taxpayers and to accumulate more power unto themselves so as to make them untouchable.

424 Honey Bear, I am sorry you are so cynical that you can't accept that I am here in good faith. But we can play this game. "What the Hell have we been doing for the last week, cooking asparagus?" The bill was released on Monday to be voted on Thursday. Four days without a public hearing. The actual debate on the bill took place on ONE day and went until 3AM. "Oh, and who shut down the political discussion in Wisconsin by walking out on their jobs again?" It is exactly because of the lack of any formal debate about this bill that our state Senators left. Don't pretend that Scott Walker would have given them the time of day. "Maybe because they have too much political influence, far more than any other group including taxpayers, given the fact that we can't stop them from constantly taking more and more and more from us without changing the law. And they use that power to enrich themselves at our expense, which, you know, makes us kind of mad." That's just ridiculous. Conservative think-tanks and political action groups have WAY more political influence than Unions, and that's a demonstrable fact. You may not like Unions, but THESE are willing to negotiate on anything other than the right to exist. "Ah, more hypocritical insults form "Mr. Polite." Yeah, the Left never mandates anything, or ridicules people. Yeah, you've got nothing against conservatives, all right." Of course they do, but I am not THE LEFT. I have not insulted anyone. I do have nothing against conservatives. I just don't like assholes. "We didn't have to do anything to get you to say something ridiculous." Very clever. You must be proud of being so clever. "Oh, how I wish that were true." It is, stop flattering yourself that I am from some secret group that's trying to infiltrate you. Just genuinely curious what you have to say. "Politesse has its place, but unfortunately the philosophical conflict we find ourselves in is approaching existential, so, you know, we have to do things you might not like. Sucks." This is not a new philosophical conflict, its been existential from the get go. There are very fundamental differences in how people in this country perceive the world, one that I don't believe we can ever overcome, nor should we. But if you can't express yourself or do what you need to do without being a dick about it, that's a shame. "but you've got some epic blinders on and I'm just not sure, despite all the words exchanged, you're really prepared to be part of a conversation. The whole assertions-contrary-to-fact thing is tiresome, as well as the staggering half-knowledge of economics and law, which requires constant correction, which is not even examined not to mention accepted." Somebody say something about passive-aggressive insults? I assert what you disagree with, therefore I assert without fact. I would love to see a serious, fact-based argument that Unions have not improved the conditions for working people since they were implemented, and that incorporated wealth, left unchecked, does not exploit the powerless. Show me that. "Oh, and polite people don't imbue their opponents with motives falsely and then whine about people being impolite. Nothing is more aggravating that passive-aggressive victim-mongering." I read the motives of others as best I can, and so do you. Neither one of us can truly know what motivates the other, we can only make the best judgement based on what that person presents to us. You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. "You essentially opened your message here by calling the others here who had reported their experiences liars, which is a pretty piss-poor start for someone who claims to value politeness. You know, that old hypocrisy thing." Close. I didn't call her a liar. I merely said that as someone who has been at these protests for several days I did not see anything close to what this woman is describing. I also suggested that occasionally, in a crowd of 70,000 people, shoving occurs. You get shoved at football games and rock concerts, too. I am sorry she had a negative experience, but if you can't take the heat then stay at the Polar Plunge. "We now understand you much better." You understand nothing about me. You don't know me, you know only what I posted on the internet in a four hour span. You've been conditioned to believe certain things are true about anyone who disagrees with you, which is apparent in your arrogant confidence. You also apparently don't have a sense of humor, which is disappointing. "That's been clear for some time." Weak, dude. I'm sure you can do better than that. Enjoy each other kids, its been fun.

425 Enjoy each other kids, its been fun.

So long, loser.

426 It is exactly because of the lack of any formal debate about this bill that our state Senators left.

Oh that's BULL FUCKING SHIT and you know it.  The Dem Senators walked off the job because that was the only power they had to stop Walker from actually reforming the corrupt Democrat-Union complex.  Once the complex is destroyed, it destroys a major source of cash for Democrats.  It had nothing to do with timing over the bill's introduction. 

427 The class rooms will be tainted with the discontent of the entire education system leaving them to take it out on the students by way of unpredictable and shoddy work.

How will anyone know the difference? Isn't the graduation rate like 46% in Milwaukee?

428 That's just ridiculous. Conservative think-tanks and political action groups have WAY more political influence than Unions, and that's a demonstrable fact. You may not like Unions, but THESE are willing to negotiate on anything other than the right to exist.

Wow, you really do live on a different planet than I do.

What are the gas prices like there?

Of course they do, but I am not THE LEFT. I have not insulted anyone. I do have nothing against conservatives. I just don't like assholes.

You opened by calling posters here liars. That's an insult where I come from.

Also, for someone who's not on the left, you seem to hold every single mistaken perception of the "right" that the left does.

Very clever. You must be proud of being so clever.

You wouldn't know, you don't even know who pays corporate income tax.

It is, stop flattering yourself that I am from some secret group that's trying to infiltrate you. Just genuinely curious what you have to say.

You didn't understand that either? Sad. I meant you weren't listening because you just keep repeating the same assertions over and over. You're not really participating in a discussion, just making statements which vary slightly.

This is not a new philosophical conflict, its been existential from the get go. There are very fundamental differences in how people in this country perceive the world, one that I don't believe we can ever overcome, nor should we. But if you can't express yourself or do what you need to do without being a dick about it, that's a shame.

You started out by calling people here liars, don't dare call me a dick, you hypocrite.

Somebody say something about passive-aggressive insults? I assert what you disagree with, therefore I assert without fact. I would love to see a serious, fact-based argument that Unions have not improved the conditions for working people since they were implemented, and that incorporated wealth, left unchecked, does not exploit the powerless. Show me that.

We're talking about public sector unions abusing power. You keep trying to go elsewhere. And also, you opened here calling people here liars, you don't get to accuse others of being insulting after that.

I read the motives of others as best I can, and so do you. Neither one of us can truly know what motivates the other, we can only make the best judgement based on what that person presents to us. You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong.

When people tell you you're wrong about them, you keep insisting that you're right about what THEY believe, without evidence. And then you call them dicks. You're kind of a downer.

Close. I didn't call her a liar. I merely said that as someone who has been at these protests for several days I did not see anything close to what this woman is describing. I also suggested that occasionally, in a crowd of 70,000 people, shoving occurs. You get shoved at football games and rock concerts, too. I am sorry she had a negative experience, but if you can't take the heat then stay at the Polar Plunge.

You repeatedly stated that people here weren't there, which was wrong. You made positive assertions about no reports of violence or arrests, which is wrong. You mischaracterized Heather's friends' description of events, even in this statement, and then after denying that it happened you make excuses for it, along with another implied insult.

You really *think* you have class, but you don't. You don't need to use profanity to be a jerk, but it's more honest.

You understand nothing about me. You don't know me, you know only what I posted on the internet in a four hour span. You've been conditioned to believe certain things are true about anyone who disagrees with you, which is apparent in your arrogant confidence. You also apparently don't have a sense of humor, which is disappointing.

Wow, your true colors are finally showing. I knew if we played with you long enough they would. You apparently don't know how starkly self-referential that paragraph appears to be.

You continue to declare with absolute certainty what the world *is* and who everyone in it *is* without any direct knowledge, and you go so far as to accuse others of it as well.

The funny thing is, while this paragraph is nonsense, your prior assertion that people guess about each other is quite true. I only know of you what you've done here in the last few hours, and it's nice to see that the ugly undercurrent I was suspecting has risen to the surface.

I also think it's hilarious that someone who quotes a simplistic crappy escapist teenage angst comedy as a joke doesn't get it at all when someone jokes back on that reference, and then accuses the person who joked back of not having a sense of humor. Kind of sad, but humorous as well.

Weak, dude. I'm sure you can do better than that.

Honey Badger don't care.

429 So long, loser.

Posted by: mrp at February 21, 2011 01:32 AM (HjPtV)

Oh, please, That's, what, the third time he said goodbye? Do you really think he's gone?

Only the Shadow knows!

430

Randall, Randall, Randall...what don't you get about what happened in your state?   Your governor campaigned on doing just what he is doing.   He has, for the entirety of his political life, even in local governemnt, espoused those beliefs.

The Dems in your state were not really surprised about what he is doing.   They just don't want him to do it, so they are having hissy fits like petulant children.   The union bosses, being the thugs that they are, thought they could bully him into not doing it. 

Guess what?    To paraphrase the president...Walker won.

 

 

431 The attempt to blame Wisconsin's deficits on Walker's "corporate tax breaks" is dishonest.

First of all, there is a current year deficit when tax breaks aren't even in effect, so these future "costs" have no impact on the immediate crisis.

Second, most of the "cuts" are actually incentives to create jobs or to relocate companies to WI.  So no company gets a "cut" without adding to the economy - static analysis again misleads the gullible.

The rest of the cuts are the repeal of the personal income tax on Health Savings Account contributions, bringing WI in line with federal law and most other states in a sane health care reform.

A good rule of thumb is that leftists are ALWAYS lying.

432 A good rule of thumb is that leftists are ALWAYS lying.

Posted by: Adjoran at February 21, 2011 02:10 AM (VfmLu)

Come on, Adjoran, Randall is *not* a leftist. He said so.

He just, you know, believes about them and us what the left says. Unions good, corporations and the all-powerful right-wing think tanks (like Media Matters... oops, sorry) bad.

So, remember, *not* a leftist.

In name.

433 gotta post a test. sorry.

434 Fritz...
Your daughter experienced the same type of thing I did. Whether it was Gathering of Eagles in support of the troops in 2007, or my first tea party in February 2009, the feelings she describes when coming up against the bias in the media or the opponents of something includes some not so nice behaviors.

For the friends I have who are liberal, they have no clue that as "proud Liberals" these hateful people are the ones in the streets getting the recognition and the ones conducting peaceful rallies or free speech are the ones constantly getting the bad rap. They have no clue on issues and if they would believe my first hand accounts, should feel some shame. Sadly, I am vilified as well. Just another example of the head-in -the-sand mentality and that I, one so passionate about this country, the Republic, couldn't possibly be telling the truth.

My son and husband went to the second Tax day tea party in Chicago and were an arms length away from the CNN reporter Susan Roesgen who went apeshit on a Dad and his child and how he should be grateful that Obama gave TARP money to IL!  Our backs are against the wall. It's going to get bigger and bigger. Get ready.

435 Why fighting 'progressives' is a never ending task.

You are fighting against evil, and evil can't be beaten - it can only be beaten back.

Light prevails over darkness - if you choose to be the light you prevail - but darkness is always there because darkness is the absence of light. It is a constant fight to hold back darkness; we never get to rest on our laurels - the darkness is always there. That is the price that you have to pay if you choose to be good.

If you expect there to be some Victory Over Darkness day with parades and such you are sadly mistaken, and you are fighting in the wrong war. If you let your light fade you have joined the darkness.

What makes our task even more difficult is that in the modern world darkness masquerades as light, and light is cursed as darkness.

If you work for good and someone opposes you - they are not working for good. People will tell you that these are differences in opinion - mostly they lie. It takes experience; but you can tell the difference between differences in opinion and evil; however, you have to look to see them.

The shock is not how many people have sold their souls - and that is a huge number - but rather how cheaply they have sold them. At least Obama got to be president; the average person sells his soul for a bottle of whiskey.

436

Randall is typical of so many on the left.  His self esteem is dependent on his need to be "right"; or make that "correct".  He'll never be "right" because he can't think for himself.  If he hears something that does not jive with his preconceived  leftist notions he says "liar, not true!" To actually think might make his head explode.

And Mr. HoneyBadger don't care.

437 To keep the peace at these rallies, I think we should send in a Gurka armed with a honey badger.  There would be no shoving, no arms either.

438

1. Okay I'm Posting Knowing Not Many Will See This. But I just had to put my 2 cents in.

2. Randall is not a leftist, he's the definition of independent squishes. My gf's sister dates one and he looks down on anybody who doesn't buy the whole evil people bringing the poor down while they claim to be all about responsibility and american virtues; thus how Palin who is really not much different from a typical conservative Republican, who's disagreed w/ Jim Demint at times even has been seen as some right wing radical by these folks

3. I'm REALLY dissapointed how many of you drop the ball w/ this clown, you allowed your anger at his bs to overshadow the facts, stats, and history that makes conservatism win in every debate it's used in. Some of you did engage him and even destroyed pratically every argument he used and he's ignoring of who pays the tax was speaking volumes.

4. Randall is why I have decided to stop claiming American Exceptolism bs talk; sorry but the fact is a bunch of people who claim to be concerned and want to be more responsible also want their piece of the gumbit crack pie. They hang on to ideas and damn be consequences; he showed this in every post hypocritically claiming he was being painted as something we were raught to see him as whole he did the same. He basically started churning out fake numbers and weird stats that were taken down as soon as they were posted; and he ignored most that he was replied to. He only left room to keep talking about the great "idea" of the unions, not the consequences.

439 Great recap, I canÂ’t even believe you were able to write that.I got so much anxiety just watching that and I thought I was the only one who had unnatural rage/hate for Kelly, glad IÂ’m not the only one, as I was getting concerned. These women show that you can age without maturing.

440 Hello, really interesting. Hope i will become more to read like this.
Thanks
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