September 07, 2011

VDH looks at aftershocks of 9/11 [ArthurK]
— Open Blogger

Victor Davis Hanson has a column looking at the big things that happened (or didn't happen) after 9/11. It's great, read the whole thing, yadda yadda but there's two sections I want to point out.

3. The taboo enemy dead. After Vietnam, who would wish to count enemy dead? To a 21st-century public, such terrible arithmetic might seem macabre, intrinsically politicized, or simply irrelevant in war. The age-old idea that killing die-hard enemies wins wars and ensures the peace is for some antithetical to the spirit of counterinsurgency doctrine, at least superficially so. Few would ever channel William Tecumseh Sherman’s frightening remarks that to win the Civil War the Union army would have to kill or humiliate several thousands of the Southern "cavalier" class, whose livelihoods depended on slavery, whose zeal had started the war, and whose boasts of martial superiority had galvanized the Confederate belief that its fighters were far better than the Northerners and could trump inferior resources.

Tens of thousands of hard-core jihadists from as far away as Algeria, Chechnya, Egypt, the Gulf monarchies, Libya, Syria, and Yemen obeyed the calls for jihad issued by the likes of Osama bin Laden, Dr. Zawahiri, and Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi. They flocked to al-Qaeda’s "main theater" of jihad in Iraq - and in Baghdad and throughout Anbar Province were killed in droves by the U.S. military and its Iraqi allies. Only off the record will military officers confess that the eventual American success in Iraq was due in some part to doing away with murderous jihadists and impressing the local population with our martial superiority. And even off the record, few will suggest that the absence of such killers from the world’s pool of hard-core terrorists may well have made life safer at home. We are in a new age when we "beat" or "subdue" the enemy but do not admit that we do that often through killing him. The Iraq War has become a story about troop levels, hearts and minds, and training the Iraqis, but not much about a shooting war in which thousands of jihadists lost.

Note the boldfaced sections in the 2nd paragraph. LeMay's quote comes to mind - "If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."

And what about our Darth Vader, Cheney?

5. The Cheney monster. By 2011 a gaunt and ill former vice president Cheney was the constant butt of late-night comedians and derided almost weekly by smug columnists. But how and why that metamorphosis had come about was never explored. It was as if Cheney was now and always had been Darth Vader, a man who liked to shoot his hunting pals and who sat in retirement with ill-gotten Halliburton riches. Few reminded us that for nearly 30 years Dick Cheney was a centrist fixer, praised by liberals as fair-minded, bipartisan, and sober and judicious in his rhetoric. ...

The charges against Cheney seem to rest on the waterboarding of three confessed terrorists who had had a hand in the planning of 9/11 - and on Cheney’s unabashed defense that such harsh interrogation saved lives and that he would most certainly do it again if we were in similar dire circumstances. ...

Somehow bloggers and op-ed writers have established by their selective outrage a narrative that it was immoral of Cheney to approve the waterboarding of three confessed terrorists like KSM, but quite moral of Obama to expand fivefold the Predator targeted-assassination program that served as judge, jury, and executioner of suspected terrorists - and of any living thing in their vicinity when the Hellfire missiles obliterated their compounds. It is apparently the nature of a therapeutic culture to demonize one of the architects of the present anti-terrorism policy of renditions, tribunals, Guantanamo, etc. only to apotheosize one of its chief critics - while quietly assuming that Cheney so convinced Obama of the utility of these protocols that the latter adopted nearly all of what he inherited.

(Published by ace.)

Posted by: Open Blogger at 10:26 AM | Comments (50)
Post contains 666 words, total size 4 kb.

1 The only good jihadi is a dead jihadi. -- William Tecumseh Sherman

Posted by: David, infamous sockpuppet at September 07, 2011 10:30 AM (UtoLw)

2 Obama is busy making tens of thousands more jihadis in Libya.

Posted by: WalrusRex at September 07, 2011 10:31 AM (Hx5uv)

3 Only 30 million jihadis left. Ooops.

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 07, 2011 10:33 AM (OhYCU)

4 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Also, I think the idea that killing them makes more jihadis fails the smell test. 

It might work (maybe) if they were killing more of us than we were of them AND they weren't busy killing their own.  However, eventually the true fanatics will all be dead, and the ones left will be more practical.  They'll see, straightaway, the problem in "dying for the cause."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at September 07, 2011 10:34 AM (8y9MW)

5
Scoamf, scoamf, scoamf your scoamf
Gently down the scoamf
Scoamfily, scoamfily, scoamfily, scoamfily
Obama is a SCOAMF

Posted by: If Well Known Songs Had Better Lyrics at September 07, 2011 10:34 AM (HsSRM)

6 Fox edited the video. LeMay actually said, "If you vote out enough of them, the sons of bitches stop fighting."

Posted by: Jim the Troll from Last Night at September 07, 2011 10:34 AM (PLvLS)

7 Uh-oh.

Waiting for the Gotham Princess to arrive and tell us only New Yorkers can discuss 9/11 in 3....2.....1......

Posted by: Jane D'oh at September 07, 2011 10:35 AM (UOM48)

8

In a promo yesterday, Wolf Blitzer announced that they were next going to take a look at the machine that was helping to keep Dick Cheney alive.

That made me laugh.

May Darth Cheney live a very long time.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at September 07, 2011 10:35 AM (GKQDR)

9 Long hair, short hair, what's the difference once the heads blowed off ?
-- Farmer Max Yasgur

Posted by: Barack Obama at September 07, 2011 10:36 AM (e8kgV)

10

I never made it out into Anbar, not my sector, but the only foreign fighters who could fight worth a shit from what I ever heard were the Chechens.

The Saudis were scary fucks from a money/ideology standpoint, but they couldn't handle a weapon other than a suicide belt or a car bomb. Unfortunately too many did. Fucking Saudis.

Posted by: SGT Dan at September 07, 2011 10:37 AM (jCQ+I)

11 Dick Cheney is a machine.  Kept alive by blood of media souls, or something.

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 07, 2011 10:37 AM (OhYCU)

12 Leftism is a severe mental disorder.

Posted by: Tsar Nicholas II at September 07, 2011 10:40 AM (f8XyF)

13

The first paragraph you cite reminds of of when Deepak Chopra's kid was doing the rounds on TV because he wrote an article saying we needed a Marshall Plan for the Middle East.

He neglected to acknowledge why the original Marshall plan was even necessary in post war europe.

Specifically because the Axis powers were totally destroyed by the Allied powers. They had to rebuild because the allies burned everything to the ground during the war. Entire cities and most industrial production.

These people only look at the post war actions and gleen lessons from it. They neglect to look at what happened during America's victorious wars.

Posted by: Ben at September 07, 2011 10:40 AM (wuv1c)

14 If you repeat a punchline 100 times, you're a hack.

If you repeat a punchline 10000 times, you're a propagandist comedic genius!

Posted by: Anony at September 07, 2011 10:41 AM (7ahtU)

15 Dick Cheney keeps a night light on in his room.  Not because he's afraid of the dark.  The dark is afraid of Dick Cheney.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at September 07, 2011 10:42 AM (kqqGm)

16 i love cheney....i wish bush had listened to him more...i wish he was in good enough health to run now.........

Posted by: phoenixgirl on other work computer at September 07, 2011 10:44 AM (IpiZb)

17 Dick Cheney had "The Talk" with his dad when he was 10 years old. His Dad learned a lot.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at September 07, 2011 10:45 AM (ZDUD4)

18 Dick Cheney keeps a night light on in his room.  Not because he's afraid of the dark.  The dark is afraid of Dick Cheney.

I thought the night light keeps Dick Cheney in the room. To protect it from the dark.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at September 07, 2011 10:47 AM (HsSRM)

19 I look forward to visiting the Cheney War Cock Museum

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 07, 2011 10:48 AM (OhYCU)

20 GENEVA — The U.S. has tumbled further down a global ranking of the world's most competitive economies, landing at fifth place because of its huge deficits and declining public faith in government, a global economic group said Wednesday. The announcement by the World Economic Forum was the latest bad news for the Obama administration, which has been struggling to boost the sinking U.S. economy and lower an unemployment rate of more than 9 percent.

Posted by: Barack Obama at September 07, 2011 10:48 AM (e8kgV)

21 Chris Wallace Shows Cheney the sign on the Today Show.

Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace displayed to former Vice President Dick Cheney how NBC’s Today show on Tuesday had ended Matt Lauer’s interview with him by pulling back to highlight an Amnesty International protest sign (“TORTURE IS A CRIME: INVESTIGATE CHENEY”) in the crowd on the street.

Wallace wondered: “What do you make of that? I mean, I somehow doubt that if Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama were speaking, they would have taken the shot and then suddenly a person with a sign would have been putting their picture up. I mean, simply, do you think there is a liberal bias in the mainstream media?”

Cheney, who seemed to have not seen the video before, chuckled as he repeated the sign’s line, “investigate Cheney.” Out on a media tour to promote his memoirs, Cheney demurred on a chance to condemn NBC News, replying to Wallace’s liberal bias suspicion: “Oh, I think there probably is. But I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about it.”

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at September 07, 2011 10:48 AM (PcoXF)

22  i love cheney....i wish bush had listened to him more...i wish he was in good enough health to run now.........

Posted by: phoenixgirl on other work computer at September 07, 2011 02:44 PM (IpiZb)

 

His health isn't the reason he's not running.  It's just that they'd have to do major rennovations to the oval office to make room for Cheney's giant barbed warcock.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 07, 2011 10:49 AM (Ge9MK)

23 Yet here at home, the Obama Administration adopts the enemy's tactics by whooping it up with Big Labor Jihadists to crush the barbarians at the gate.

Savvy.

Posted by: Fritz at September 07, 2011 10:49 AM (YhI7X)

24 How did this whole ignore enemy casualties thing get started in the military? Was it pressure from civilian "leaders"? It's a really dumb, and frankly, dangerous mindset.

Posted by: KG at September 07, 2011 10:49 AM (LD21B)

25

"The only good jihadi is a dead jihadi. -- William Tecumseh Sherman"

IIRC that was General Phil Sheridan.

About the bold-faced phrases in the second block quote, it's not a contradiction; remember, the leftists are the party of nuance (dang, no sarcasm emoticon).

Posted by: Windy Wilson at September 07, 2011 10:50 AM (QHQDL)

26 @26: I suspect it's related to enabling the media to spin various tactical victories in Vietnam as terrible losses (e.g. the Tet Offensive).

Posted by: Ian S. at September 07, 2011 10:51 AM (tqwMN)

27 How did this whole ignore enemy casualties thing get started in the military?

I think they just measure it in trailer truck loads now.  Some settling may occur.

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 07, 2011 10:51 AM (OhYCU)

28 > 18 Anyone got a link for that, BTW? Posted by: Beefy Meatball A link for the VDH column? It's in the first line.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 07, 2011 10:52 AM (5Z/+/)

29

>>>How did this whole ignore enemy casualties thing get started in the military? Was it pressure from civilian "leaders"? It's a really dumb, and frankly, dangerous mindset.

 

I don't know, but i remember after the Highway of Death it seemed like the military became extremely sensetive about offering death counts.

To this day there is no accurate number to how many retreating Iraqi soldiers were killed.  Tens of thousands most likely.

Posted by: Ben at September 07, 2011 10:53 AM (wuv1c)

30 18 Anyone got a link for that, BTW?

Posted by: Beefy Meatball


A link for the VDH column? It's in the first line.


Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 07, 2011 02:52 PM (5Z/+/)


I think he meant a link to Beck's pig bombs audio that he mentioned in #16.

Posted by: Tami at September 07, 2011 10:53 AM (X6akg)

31 Also, I think the idea that killing them makes more jihadis fails the smell test.

You don't know the half of it...

Posted by: Achmed, the Zombie Jihadi at September 07, 2011 10:56 AM (GBXon)

32 it was immoral of Cheney to approve the waterboarding of three confessed terrorists like KSM, but quite moral of Obama to expand fivefold the Predator targeted-assassination program that served as judge, jury, and executioner of suspected terrorists


What a double standard? The DEUCE you SAY!

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at September 07, 2011 10:56 AM (0q2P7)

33

The reason body counts aren't a good indicator of a war's progress, is that during Vietnam, commanders, who's only purpose was to get their tickets punched for promotion would exagerate body counts.  After any type of engagement they would go to extremes to increase the body count.

A leg would be counted as a body.  An arm would be counted as another body, the head, etc, etc.  Even though all those parts could be just the remains of one enemy soldier.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 07, 2011 11:01 AM (Ge9MK)

34 You don't have to kill them all, just visibly castrate the leaders and avid followers. We did this in Iraq and work circulated and then no more volunteer hadjis. War is for adults, thats why America isn't up to it anymore. We have child's view of the world and it shows every time I look at Sparky. Skittles and rainbows baby.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at September 07, 2011 11:01 AM (0M3AQ)

35 Cheney's heart pump will never stop out of sheer terror of what he'd do to it if it ever f'n goofed.

Posted by: dblwmy at September 07, 2011 11:02 AM (BvTwT)

36 You don't have to kill them all, just visibly castrate the leaders and avid followers.

They tried that with Palinistas, but it didn't work.

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 07, 2011 11:04 AM (OhYCU)

37 Body counts, like material counts are an age old metric of success in war. If the army you are fighting is loosing men and major material assets (i.e., tanks) then what you are doing is working. Body counts in Vietnam were a reasonable metric given that VC had no material assets of any meaningful measure. If we had secured and held positions instead of humping through the hills on search and destroy missions we would probably have won. Wrong tactics, not wrong metrics. Just sayin.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at September 07, 2011 11:06 AM (0M3AQ)

38 You don't have to kill them all, just visibly castrate the leaders and avid followers.

They tried that with Palinistas, but it didn't work.

Posted by: cherry pi, terrorist hostage taking SOB at September 07, 2011 03:04 PM (OhYCU)

 

That was Jesse Jackson's plan for the SCOAMF, until he found out the SCOAMF didn't have any balls.

Posted by: Soona - Tearorrist at September 07, 2011 11:07 AM (Ge9MK)

39 2 Obama is busy making tens of thousands more jihadis in Libya.

Posted by: WalrusRex at September 07, 2011 02:31 PM (Hx5uv)

So THAT'S where all the "jobs created or saved" are that the SCOAMFOTUS keeps talking about.  Heck, they're even shovel ready!  You need a shovel to scrape their suicided jihadi carcasses off the sidewalk when they prematurely blow themselves up.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at September 07, 2011 11:11 AM (4df7R)

40 > 40 ... Body counts in Vietnam were a reasonable metric given that VC had no material assets of any meaningful measure. If we had secured and held positions instead of humping through the hills on search and destroy missions we would probably have won. ... Posted by: Sub-Tard Creighton Abrams strategy did work - and we did "win". But then the 1975 Congress voted to not supply ammo to the South when they were under attack and the North pulled victory from defeat.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at September 07, 2011 11:12 AM (5Z/+/)

41 I love the fact that Cheney is now part cyborg, kept alive by machines. JUST LIKE DARTH VADER.

Posted by: tsj017 at September 07, 2011 11:33 AM (4YUWF)

42 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at September 07, 2011 11:34 AM (fyOgS)

43 Cheney: "Barack . . . I am your father." Barack: "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

Posted by: tsj017 at September 07, 2011 11:35 AM (4YUWF)

44 If we had secured and held positions instead of humping through the hills on search and destroy missions we would probably have won. Wrong tactics, not wrong metrics. Just sayin.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at September 07, 2011 03:06 PM (0M3AQ)

But, we were winning militarily, that wasn't the problem. The problem was the Democrats back home, like always.

Posted by: KG at September 07, 2011 11:48 AM (LD21B)

45
In 2013, President Perry orders the still under construction USS John F. Kennedy (CVN-79) renamed the USS Dick Cheney.

The ship's seal, designed by the commissioning crew, depicts a jihadi cowering under Cheney's massive barbed warcock.   The caption on the seal is "Go fuck yourself" (in honor of the directive Cheney once gave to Sen. Patrick Leahy.)

A sailor can dream...

Posted by: J.P. Jones at September 07, 2011 12:04 PM (Xv7f/)

46 Every insication points to Iraq being the flypaper for these Jihadi scum.  The military should be proud about the fact that they took on and destroyed a determined terrorist enemy.  They also should be pointing these facts out so the military members who fought there and especially the loved ones of the fallen know their sacrifices were not meaningless.

Posted by: howcome at September 07, 2011 12:31 PM (KgDYO)

47

The problem with the body count issue is not merely that it became a matter for ticket-punchers.  You could still do the same thing with the same results, but the actual disadvantage was that making it public gave the lefties the opportunity to call our military a bunch of murderous fanatics bent on killing large numbers of the enemy.  That this was a bad thing was implied and a few, mostly the better educated, bought the whole idea.

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at September 07, 2011 01:41 PM (wxHHM)

48 I love what you guys are frequently up too. Such clever work and reporting! Keep up the terrific works guys IÂ’ve added you guys to my blogroll.

Posted by: Talent Is Overrated AudioBook at September 07, 2011 04:28 PM (HJAc6)

Posted by: christine at September 07, 2011 08:01 PM (k0JNn)

50

Test. Test. Test

Test. Test. Test. .......Testy test test test.

Wow, the toolbar is finally working for me. Yay!

I got toolses.

Posted by: ConservativeMenAreJustHotter at September 09, 2011 12:54 PM (vKRHm)

Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.
96kb generated in CPU 0.0254, elapsed 0.2035 seconds.
64 queries taking 0.1871 seconds, 178 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.