1 SO, the "Truth or Dare" game is off for the sleep-over?

2 I asked this before, but if the Dem Senators have left the state, do we have to let them back in? Couldn't we declare their actions illegal, and then say we have a compelling reason to block them from entering the state? Please?

I would do just about anything to get rid of Sen. Erpenbach. Well, maybe not anything moron-style, but anything else.

3 Should be able to nab one or two of them with a "Free Hookers and Blow at the Statehouse" sting.

4

I wonder if the police will physically drag them into the chambers and how that might play out on tv.

So far, PR wise, i think this is hurting the public unions

5 OLLY OLLY OXEN FREE!

6 Free blow? Where?

7 It's only getting started.  This weekend, the Unions are really going to ratchet things up.  There will be blood.

8 In before eggamoobymuffin cries in his wheatgrass juice again.

9 23 Skidoo!

10 Who would have thought that Madison, Wisconsin would be the center of the Great Socialist Worker's Revolt. I always thought it would be Trenton, NJ!

11 Meh. Maybe. But Reagan didn't play soft for the middle. I don't know what constitutes a "bomb" as in "bomb throwing"? The left throws bombs non-stop and we just think they're nuts and the idiots believe what they say. Their entire world fits on a bumper sticker. I guarentee you that 99% of the people out there think the governor of Wisconsin is cutting their wages and benefits instead of asking them to pay for a portion of their benefits and allowing people to decide whether they want the union or not.

12 I'm in Rockford, maybe I'll drive up and bust some skulls with Breitbart.

13 MadTOwn= 25 sq. mi surrounded by reality. It's just the one of the armpits of the state. Milwaukee being the other.

14 I think when you have a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit you can be a forceful fiscal conservative.

15 Fuck the Poor! Teachers!

16 Seems Herman Cain will be in Madison as well.

17 I hope local tea parties are ratcheting up plans for counter protests. And more importantly, I hope they are bringing camcorders, cameras, and explaining to all tea party member that they are not to fight back if attacked in any circumstances. Just take the beating and make sure you get it on film

18 I don't know Ace.. I think it's about not being stealthy principled, but being straightforward and stalwart. Calling the leftists and media on their bullsh*t,... that's what Christie has done and is effective and he doesn't care what they say. That is the key. Be principled; stay on message; give no quarter and speak directly to the people. The games must stop.

19 Bipartisanship is nice, but it cannot be a substitute for action, not having it cannot prevent us from going forward.  - Nancy Pelosi

Let the GOP take this quote to heart.

20

Rush on Wisconsin teacher's salaries and compensation is:  "If they were really low and making so little, the media would be plastering that information all over the place.  In fact, they are way out of line with what everyone else makes, that's why it's not being revealed.  Per Fox89,500K avg. salary and benefits, average non-public American worker makes 61,000 in salary and benefits/year."

21 I could quote Sun Tzu, but a better parallel is Marlon Brando's Godfather character.  Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.   iow, don't let them know what you really think until it's time to lower the boom, and then do it with a soft voice, a calm demeanor and an air of regret that they forced you into such a course of action.  This will terrify and dispirit your enemies and their allies, and they will become your allies.  I think we have a number of up and comers who understand this. 

22 School's Out

23 Ann Althouse pulling in 158K a year as a professor at madison, so take her comments on the situation with a metric ton of salt.

24 Oops, meant to say that teachers in WN average pay and benefits are $89,500K while the average non-public sector employee makes $61,000 in total compensation.

25 16 Seems Herman Cain will be in Madison as well.

Really?  He's been on Fox quite a bit lately.  I really, really like him.

26 >>> don't know Ace.. I think it's about not being stealthy principled, but being straightforward and stalwart. yeah that's what Kos said about Obama, and he was wrong, Obama was obviously a leftist ideologue, he just wasn't sharing that with the American Public. I really thinking you are overvaluing being "straightforward" in politics.

27 I asked this before, but if the Dem Senators have left the state, do we have to let them back in?

If only we had that fence on the southern border...

The rally in Madison tomorrow to support Walker has confirmed Andrew Breitbart and Herman Cain as speakers. There will be buses from Milwaukee, Rhinelander, Eau Claire, Green Bay/Appleton (details still TBA; follow WI_Majority on Twitter or the event on Facebook).


_{I've never been to a rally in WI, I hope there's beer vendors.}

28 Bahrain Army opens fire on protesters.

29 Ace I don't disagree with the sentiment here but there's a flip side to it. The lack of passion. I think you are right  we don't want a firebreathing candidate but why does it seem like it's that or milquetoast.  Christie is hot now because he is passionate about something. Walker too.  Yeah, calm about it but they know where they want to be and are trying to get there. A candidate needs an issue to unseat an incumbent and they need to be passionate about that issue at the least.  Obama doesn't win in 2004 with Hope and Change.

30 Dems are outraged that some Rep reps are sleeping in their offices because it allows them to work longer hours and save money. Reps are pissed that Dems won't even show up to work. I'd say that about sums up the differences in the two parties today.

31

You hit the nail on the head about the importance of moderate in appearance, but unyielding in principle. Reagan had it in spades-- while he could be a fiery speaker, over time he worked the affable, amiable guy-who-was-just-there-to-do-his-duty schtick much more often. 

It was one of Obama's strongest cards in 2008-- though he had his willing tools in the press to push the illusion of non-partisan (ha!) amiability-- to reach the mass of swing voters who like to vote for the personality (or appearance thereof). 

We really need a new Reagan, someone trustworthy on principles and issues yet affable and amiable to keep from frightening the swing voters.  The appearance of moderation-- what you called "moderate in temperament"-- wins the Presidency. 

32 20

Rush on Wisconsin teacher's salaries and compensation is:  "If they were really low and making so little, the media would be plastering that information all over the place.  In fact, they are way out of line with what everyone else makes, that's why it's not being revealed.  Per Fox89,500K avg. salary and benefits, average non-public American worker makes 61,000 in salary and benefits/year."

Posted by: runningrn at February 18, 2011 01:10 PM (ihSHD)

It's $56,000 in Madison, WI. But that's becuase of the high concentration of Gov't workers. Nearby Fitchburg, WI is $50,000

33 Posted by: HeatherRadish stands with Scott Walker at February 18, 2011 01:13 PM (nAOMZ)

Heather, check out the WI short bus at Moonbattery.  It's full of win.  (I haz no linky skilz.)

34

I could quote Sun Tzu, but a better parallel is Marlon Brando's Godfather character.  Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. 

This is the most overused and retarded quote of the past 30 years.  I fucking hate hearing it at this point. 

Kill your enemies. Insincerity is unbecoming.

At least, according to my mom.

35 Aces,
  Your basic point is right. That 's why Reagan was an icon. He embodied and embraced all 3 legs of the conservative stool, but communicate them in a way that "flatter" people. I am impressed with Walker and like his style. On the other hand, I don't like the people on our side to use this as an excuse to attack your own base as a means to "reach out".  I can be excited by people like Walker. Middle of the pack candidate like Tpaw doesn't excite me. He stayed low to avoid the direct fire in the last 2 years. Other people went on the front line to prepare the battlefield and soften the hostile fires for him. Then he can't even handle a hostile interview accusing his side of inciting violence (ie ceding the term of the debate).  People like Walker didn't have the visibility in the last 2 years to join the fight for our nation. Other people did that. Now he got the opportunity to do that and I am really impressed with him so far.

36 This is one segment of the government (the hired employees) demanding that the other segment of government (the elected side) maintain the theft from the wallet of the people to line their own.  The people are the ultimate victims here, and the unions are using the threat of violence and unrest to try to force it to happen.

THEY are the oppressive regime.  WE are the victims.

37 Short Bus.

38 Who would have thought that Madison, Wisconsin would be the center of the Great Socialist Worker's Revolt.

Anyone who's ever been there...

39 37 Short Bus.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 18, 2011 01:16 PM (SJ6/3)

Thanks!

40 As much as I am a fan of Jim DeMint and wish for more clones of him in the Senate, I do agree with ace that DeMint would be dead in the water with a run on the Presidency.. There, I said it.

41 As a conservative, I want Walker to fire all the teachers who called out without being sick.  Reagan got away with it.  Those teachers are putting undue burden on working parents with their selfish posturing, fire them!!

42

I agree, Obama won because he was a blank slate, yet he could wink and nod to left wingers as they knew where he really stood.

I wouldn't mind that for us in 2012

43 37 Short Bus.


Every time I see that I laugh.

44 Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 18, 2011 01:13 PM (SJ6/3)

Eccch, Excitable Andi warning.

45

Ann Althouse pulling in 158K a year as a professor at madison, so take her comments on the situation with a metric ton of salt.

...and bring some Feminine Moisturizer.

46 Just wait 30 days when they will become residents of Illinois, ineligible to hold office in Wisconsin.

47 34

I could quote Sun Tzu, but a better parallel is Marlon Brando's Godfather character.  Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. 

This is the most overused and retarded quote of the past 30 years.  I fucking hate hearing it at this point. 

Kill your enemies. Insincerity is unbecoming. At least, according to my mom.

Posted by: garrett at February 18, 2011 01:15 PM (sHj00)

“The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters.”

Yet another overused quote but more appropriate.

48 Is that the Andy Sullivan you guys are always on about?

49 Nice...Sekrit Juice Hash!

50

Walker/Christie 2012.

End the era of corruption!  Obama and Pelosi - a thing of the past.

 

51

I agree, Obama won because he was a blank slate, yet he could wink and nod to left wingers as they knew where he really stood.

I wouldn't mind that for us in 2012

The problem for us is that we don't have the media machine on our side. We usually ended up with people like Souter, McCain, Graham etc... We usually ended up wiping our nose to vote for a Rep candidate. For me, looks like it is the same for 2012 unless sth changes.

52 49 Mine to.

53 The Brews

54 Checkmate.

Wisconsin Class I FELONY

946.12(1)

(1) Intentionally fails or refuses to perform a known mandatory, nondiscretionary, ministerial duty of the officer's or employee's office or employment within the time or in the manner required by law;

55 Cain joining Breitbart in Madison.
http://tinyurl.com/4eje53t

56 You can extradite for a felony, you know.

57 "So many times a Republican politician, like Boehner or McConnell will say, "Of course I want to work with the President and hear him out and figure out where we can move forward with shared principle" and people will yell about it, like this is a big sell-out, and what they should say is "I hope he fails." Or whatever."

Yeah, Ace, except you can't really tell when these asshole RINOs really mean they will work with the Marxists.  They've made these comments in the past and they've really meant them.

So just how can we tell when the pricks are lying:  Now ro history?

Huuuuuuuuuuuu?

58
946.12 Misconduct in public office. Any public officer or public employee who does any of the following is guilty of a Class I felony:

59 I'm going to try to make it to Madison- anyone else?

60

I think there are a lot of unemployed teachers around the nation that would take these jobs in a heartbeat.  Striking in Wisconsin is illegal.  How cool would it be if all those who abandoned their classrooms got the boot?  They are failing to perform the job they were hired to do.  Wouldn't that qualify as grounds for termination? 

We had a recent incident here in Seattle where a young cop shot and killed a deaf, Native American woodcarver who was carrying a pen-knife.  He was told to drop the knife, but when he didn't comply, 4 seconds later, the cop pumped 5 bullets into his chest.  (The woodcarver also had a blood alohol of  0.18.)  The cop resigned yesterday (this incident occurred about 3 weeks ago).  It's looking like the review board is going to find him at fault.  Liberal idiot I run with was bemoaning that this cop got the option of "stepping down and retaining his certification.  What's it gonna take to be able to get rid of bad cops" he bemoaned, "How come he hasn't been fired already?"

I said, "Unions.  They protect people who shouldn't be kept in place."  I mentioned numerous incidents where nurses were caught stealing drugs at work, using those drugs, being alcoholics, etc., and how the hospital I work at had to send them all to rehab.  We couldn't fire them.  I also mentioned the 60 Minutes piece (hardly a right wing entity) on the "Rubber Rooms" for teachers in NYC. 

 

61 @34
I didn't say to be insincere.  Lying is insincere.  Not telling people what you think until it is to your advantage is something else entirely.  Eisenhower understood that.  He let others lead the charge and remained inscrutable until it was to late for his opposition to do anything about it.  Everyone can't do this, of course, but the big bosses can use it to good effect.  Don't hand advantages to your opponents.

Remind me not to cross your Mom.

62 10 Who would have thought that Madison, Wisconsin would be the center of the Great Socialist Worker's Revolt. I always thought it would be Trenton, NJ!

Posted by: The Robot Devil at February 18, 2011 01:07 PM (LdYLm)

I think its all in the timing.  If Christie would have been elected last november and pulled the stuff he did when he first came in it would be the case.  But now he's already pulled his stuff out and most people like it.  But now its presidential election time and you need to get your base on board and ready to do stuff and that's what's happening here.  This is part of the re-elect Obama campaign.

63

What is completely outrageous and beyond the pale is that Obama's political committee is getting involved in this mess in Madison Wisconsin.  Organizing For America (an Obama organization) is driving people to Madison to participate in this riot.

Again, it is made perfectly clear that Obama is an agent of destruction, he WANTS chaos, he thinks it is a good thing to throw gasoline on an already smoldering fire. 

 

64

The unions are running around working their butts raw with a 6 foot dildo in front of God and all creation and they're too damn stoopid to understand that. The workforce is overwhelmingly non union and most of the non union people are not appreciative of the unions. They are performing a self gang rape and I'm loving it. Pump on teachers!

65 Right on, ace.

A couple of week's ago, I was coaching a young employee I've been mentoring on how to navigate the political minefield in the owrkplace.

I told him that any time he needed to counter some back-stabber who was trying to fuck him over, his approach should always be calm and sober.

You make the other guy look bad by letting him get emotional. You? You are the professional who is just presenting the facts and trying to do right by the company.

It' s never about you, it's about the company.

You don't say,"Hey! This lazy fuckface is making my life impossible because he's such an incompetent jerkoff!"

It doesn't matter if it's true. You don't say it.

You make it about the company. You say, "Our product is suffering because of these issues. I'm very concerned about X,Y, Z." Then you present your proof. You let the management make the connection between the problems and the lazy jerk-off creating them."

It's fun rip some idiot coworker to your workplace buddies. Hey, they're on your team (just like how in politics, the partisans on the right are on your team).

But the people making the decisions? They don't want to hear all that mean-spirited personal stuff. They want everyone to work together as a team.

Divisive people don't make it far in the workplace, even if they're good at what they do. The same goes for national politics.

Do I like it? No. Do I want to punch the "let's all work together and get something done with all this incivility" types right in the throat? Of course I do. Things get uncivil for a reason--usually it's because some worthless retard is trying to foist the consequences of his own failings of on you.

But it is what it is.

66 Heck all the troopers need to do is wait until after Memorial Day and then pick the dems up in the annual norther mass migration of fibs to Lake Geneva.

67

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 18, 2011 01:16 PM (SJ6/3)

 

So, how many clowns do fit in a short bus?

68 I love that short bus.

I'm going to try to be on a real bus to Madison tomorrow 'cause I can't deal with their anti-car setup downtown.

69 The pluperfect summary of what it takes to win, nationally, by our genius, Ace.

" . . . or whatever the fuck I'm supposed to say to please the ninnies . . . "

Independent voters.  The middle.  The center.  All summed up perfectly as "ninnies."

70

I said, "Unions.  They protect people who shouldn't be kept in place."  I mentioned numerous incidents where nurses were caught stealing drugs at work, using those drugs, being alcoholics, etc., and how the hospital I work at had to send them all to rehab.  We couldn't fire them.  I also mentioned the 60 Minutes piece (hardly a right wing entity) on the "Rubber Rooms" for teachers in NYC. 

 

Posted by: runningrn at February 18, 2011 01:23 PM (ihSHD) 

I'm dying to know what your lib runner pal's response was!

71 17  I'm out of cheeks to turn and they have bitten off one too many fingers and beaten one too many Black Men in wheelchairs.  Beat the living fuck out of the union thugs.

72 Dr. Spank, You can be forceful like Christie or Walker (or Kasich, soon, I guess) but still throw in the silly-shit "I am looking foward to hearing the good ideas of the Democrats" and the absurd "I want to unite all people of good faith" horseshit. I'm just saying, you might think this is dumb, but this dumb shit sells to the dummies. I think the Tea Party benefited from this. Because the Tea Party was expressly anti-GOP establishment and pro-"common sense" and ideas and stuff.

73 68 I love that short bus.

I'm going to try to be on a real bus to Madison tomorrow 'cause I can't deal with their anti-car setup downtown.

Posted by: HeatherRadish stands with Scott Walker at February 18, 2011 01:25 PM (nAOMZ)

Heather, that short bus pic would make an excellent t-shirt for a Tea Party rally.  It would piss off all the "right" people.

74 HeatherRadish: There is ALWAYS beer in Madison. There are at least four bars right on the Capitol Square and a good 16 of them down State Street, so not to worry. You can be sure that they will be open for business, just like Gov. Walker says.

75

Die By the Sword

76

So say these Unions get their way, and the budget cuts aren't made.  What's going to happen when a bunch of their "valued" members end up losing their jobs?  Rioting?  Murder?  Mayhem?  Chaos?

If I was a working class parent in WI, I would be pissed.  This is what, day 3 of kids having no school?  I'm sure there are thousands of parents out there scrambling to find daycare for their children. 

Like Rush said, the Dems always use kids as human shields.

77 And I do not for the life of me get the people who say "Just use the message they've already explicitly rejected for 15 years; it'll work this time."

Except that there hasn't been a "message"—in the sense of political-philosophical principle—election in those fifteen years. Rand Paul's is the only arguable exception, and he had to run—and won—against both parties. On principle.

Here's why you find yourself never convincing anyone with your line on "purity" and shit (aside from the fact that you change the line every time you run it): When "purity"/"message"/any semblance of same comes from someone you don't like, you say their appeal to principle is partisan/simpleminded/exclusionary/etc., but when mere partisanship comes from an unprincipled pol you do like, like Christie or Ryan, you approvingly call it principled/intelligent/appealing/etc.

You dissemble about dissembling. That's one too many.

Only those who already share your judgment of whose behavior is principled/partisan/etc. are going take what you're saying in the way you want it taken. Because they're already there—in a purely partisan sense—and don't have to actually follow what you're saying. Which is unfollowable in any other way. Like a Party platform.

78 74 HeatherRadish: There is ALWAYS beer in Madison. There are at least four bars right on the Capitol Square and a good 16 of them down State Street, so not to worry. You can be sure that they will be open for business, just like Gov. Walker says.  

Oh, goody!  Get Heather likkered up and turn her loose!  Promise you'll post the vid on YouTube. 

79 Like I said. Teacher's unions are all about the kids like the UAW is all about the cars.

80

MMMMMM.....Red meat.

81 Ace: They're probably all using state issued credit and gas cards. They should be canceled.

82 Oh, goody!  Get Heather likkered up and turn her loose!  Promise you'll post the vid on YouTube. 

Posted by: Jane D'oh at February 18, 2011 01:30 PM (UOM4

Can't go myself--my four year old son comes first and I"m not dragging him out among the heathens, but I will send hubby and he does have the video. I'm sure he will get some shots of Heather as she scales the Capitol building or something....

83

Posted by: SLAYER! at February 18, 2011 01:29 PM (sHj00)

Mmmmmm Slayer.

Quiet joo? (sHj00)

 

84

I'm dying to know what your lib runner pal's response was!

 

Jane, he was sputtering, then speechless.  It was bee-yoo-ti-ful!  He and I have gotten into it numerous times (I really don't like him much, but for some reason, my husband really does!)  It was so awesome, because he knew I'm right, and he even said "Oh, yeah, I saw that 60 Minutes segment."  It was great.  He had nothing!  Never bring a butterknife to a gunfight.  Liberals do it all the time.  When they can't win, they change the subject. 

 

85 76

So say these Unions get their way, and the budget cuts aren't made.  What's going to happen when a bunch of their "valued" members end up losing their jobs?  Rioting?  Murder?  Mayhem?  Chaos?

If I was a working class parent in WI, I would be pissed.  This is what, day 3 of kids having no school?  I'm sure there are thousands of parents out there scrambling to find daycare for their children. 

Like Rush said, the Dems always use kids as human shields.

Posted by: runningrn at February 18, 2011 01:29 PM (ihSHD)

And if you boil them just right, they make a delicious stew!

86 I love the fleeing chicken graphic on the short bus. That should be on signs and T-shirts everywhere with the label "Wisconsin Democratic Party mascot" or some such.

87 82  Lol

88 Teachers Unions are all about the kids like Barky is all about Winning the Future: WTF?

89 >>> We usually ended up with people like Souter, McCain, Graham etc.. yeah but here's a good example: Mitch Daniels and his "social issues truce." Now, as far as I know, Mitch Daniels has been a pro-lifer all his life and he's governed that way too. So when he says 'I want a social truce," I look at that, really, as likely a lie deployed to win the independents, and I know to a near moral certainty he will appoint strong judicial restraint conservative judges. But I do not believe enough people are hip to the virtue of, again to be frank about it, political bullshit. So I don't think it will work. I don't think the right people will understand what his game really is. Also, Daniels really is anti- anti-immigration (that is, he's a squish), and that's not a pose, that's what he is. So I don't like him on that. But the social issues truce thing is silly, as you can't have a truce, and he's a smart guy, ergo I think he knows that, so I have to ask why is he saying it? It's a terrific bid for positioning for the general, but I just do not believe enough people will be comortable with his wink-wink sort of posturing here.

90 >>>Ace: They're probably all using state issued credit and gas cards. They should be canceled. Right, cell phones too I bet I bet.

91 Never bring a butterknife to a gunfight.  Liberals do it all the time.  When they can't win, they change the subject. 

Posted by: runningrn at February 18, 2011 01:33 PM (ihSHD)

Or never bring a frontal lobe dessicated by years of disuse.

92

Radish, be sure to bring your camera, Purell and lots of Fabreeze when you go to that counter-protest.  The stench of the Hippy Libtards will be overwhelming. 

You'll also need a long, hot shower when you get home.  Be safe, and be careful!  I wouldn't put anything past those Union Thugs.

93 It's just odd that people don't recognize that you can't run around going full-on TRUTH 24-7 in politics.

Geez, guys. You can't even to this in your own lives. Do you go 24-7 TRUTH with your spouse? Your friends? Your employees? Your boss?

You know what we call people who do that? Friendless, single and unemployed.

I like to think of myself as a pretty truth-y guy and even have a few rants here about how we don't have the balls to acknowledge the elephant in the room on a slew of  touchy social, racial and cultural issues.

But, damn, you do have to be pragmatic. Life requires that you finesse the truth every now and then. It's the only way to get what you want without spending every minute of every day at war with someone else.

Back to the workplace thing--you know why you never TELL your manager what should be done? Because it's an attack on his stupid, fragile little manager ego. That's why.

So you lead him right up to the conclusion that you wanted him to come to and allow him to believe he got there all by himself, like the smart, dynamic leader he believes himself to be.

And now he gets to be a problem solver instead of a guy taking orders from his subordinate.

It's no different in politics. You have to play to the stupid, fragile little egos of the "moderates" and "independents" who have decided that being unprincipled,  low-information voters makes them nuanced, outside-the-box thinkers.

94 He had nothing!  Never bring a butterknife to a gunfight.  Liberals do it all the time.  When they can't win, they change the subject. 

 

Posted by: runningrn at February 18, 2011 01:33 PM (ihSHD)

Love it. 

95

Walker is a man of resolve.  definitely.  it shows in that tidbit  in your post.

makes me  wonder how many times he really wanted to say 'get you dead asses back, NOW, you puss.

 

96 Until one of these teachers employs the self immolation tactic, I'll remain un-impressed with their commitment to the cause.

97 You can never find a daisy cutter when you need one.

98 96 Until one of these teachers employs the self immolation tactic, I'll remain un-impressed with their commitment to the cause.

Posted by: Daffy Duck Classic at February 18, 2011 01:35 PM (sHj00)

Sorry, this is Duck Season no self immolation allowed!

99 I can't wait to hear what Herman Cain has to say at the rally with Breitbart. 

100 that short bus pic would make an excellent t-shirt for a Tea Party rally.  It would piss off all the "right" people.

That totally would.  I should make a sign.

101

Like Rush said, the Dems always use kids as human shields.

I think he stole that from iknotheleft.

102 Oh, and Radish, make sure you're all up to date on your Tetanus shots and Hepatits Vacines before tomorrow!

103 >>>When "purity"/"message"/any semblance of same comes from someone you don't like, you say their appeal to principle is partisan/simpleminded/exclusionary/etc., but when mere partisanship comes from an unprincipled pol you do like, like Christie or Ryan, you approvingly call it principled/intelligent/appealing/etc. What an idiot. The other day I said Christie was lying about his reasons for not joining the ObamaCare suit. I said it was a clever lie, but a lie the same, and I didn't say it was principled. How can a lie be principled? Whatever dude. You're an extremist, frankly, on EVERYTHING, and yet you think you know what appeals to people so far from your way of thinking it's not funny. You deride me as a squish. Fine, I'm a squish. Who is closer then to a real squish (an independent) and can better guess at what will appeal to them? You, the extremist waiting for the world to end so you can bugger off to the woods, or me, the squish?

104

Sort of on-topic: Those of you getting the vapors about Jim Demint more than likely have nothing to worry about. I was told over a year ago by someone who knows him that he's not going to run. Granted, things can always change but I don't think he's interested.

105 OT: I'd just like to say that the Appropriations Committee is full of crooks. How are we supposed to further cut spending when the chairman and all subcommittee heads stand against a spending amendment?

In good news, 3 ObamaCare defunding bills will be voted upon later today. Steve King is discussing his amendment now.

106 Heather Radish posted the video of the communist revolutionary in full keffiyah garb (Islamists and Communists, hand in hand)  marching down to help give the "workers" support- to answer the cries for solutions.
Communism. Islamism.  Many there were grabbing up her tabloid propaganda.

Get the children away from these people as fast as you can.

107 The hobos are gathering.

108

Geez, guys. You can't even to this in your own lives. Do you go 24-7 TRUTH with your spouse? Your friends? Your employees? Your boss?

Why, yes. Yes I do. Thats why I'm known as "that asshole who is too damn skilled to run off" around the work place. I gotta be me

109

"A leader's supposed to say stuff like "of course I want to work with the other side" even if he's frankly lying"

More likely, he's not lying, he just knows damn well that the left will NEVER work with him.  Conservatives have tried for decades to truly find common ground, and have oftentimes gone way over the lefty line to show how willing they are to find common ground, at the expense of what's right for our Country.  Reality is, the left thinks common ground is wayyyyy over on their side, kind of like how Fox News is seen as right wing.

110 "9.10(1)(a)
(a) The qualified electors of the state, of any county, city, village, or town, of any congressional, legislative, judicial, town sanitary, or school district, or of any prosecutorial unit may petition for the recall of any incumbent elective official by filing a petition with the same official or agency with whom nomination papers or declarations of candidacy for the office are filed demanding the recall of the officeholder."

111

I  love the fleeing chicken graphic on the short bus. That should be on signs and T-shirts everywhere with the label "Wisconsin Democratic Party mascot" or some such.

That was me. I thought all of them were chasing me, but they passed me and kept going toward the state line.

Whew.

112

Who is closer then to a real squish (an independent) and can better guess at what will appeal to them?

I used to get squishy. 

113 I can smell the stench of the protesters from here, and I'm in Waunakee across the lake. If you are going, take Lysol spray, and don't get bitten by one of the rabid idiots.

114 I'm sure he will get some shots of Heather as she scales the Capitol building or something....

*lol*

I'm meek and law-abiding.  I'll be listening respectfully to Cain and Breitbart, carrying a little "Dear Gov Walker, I'll be happy to pay a small fraction of my own health insurance costs if you hire me" sign.

115 Someone was floating this idea earlier - any idea what is exactly required for the governor to declare a seat vacant and in need of replacement election? (I'm sure he could probably appoint someone, but elections would both work better and be hard to court challenge.)

116

You know, this whole thing is going to be really interesting.  Even some of my lefty Democrat friends are anti-union.  One of them sends her kids to private school because of them and another one who used to be a consultant for Deloitte and Touche saw how destructive they were when she traveled the country to assess various big business manufacturing processes.

Ooh, Rush bringing up a good point:  The same media that made fun of GWB and Dick Cheney for "flying around the country" and "hunkering down in a bunker" hiding from the terror threat on 9/11 are lauding the "bravery" of the WI state Senate Democrats for "taking a stand" and leaving the state. 

117 Warden, Conservatives used to note a big difference between them and conservatives is that conservatives had a better and more realistic understanding of what human nature really was, whereas liberals tended to posit weird virtues and strange impulses to people, and their idea of "people" was almost nothing like real people. For example, liberals never think there's a moral hazard to high welfare payments because they posit that no human anywhere would ever game the system and decide that it's better to just take a check while not seeking work. Conservatives, of course, said that's insane, of course people will do that. Anyway, that's why I find this weird. I (and you) propose some cynical sorts of wisdom about how people really are and such (like I always say indpendents are ill-informed wishy-washes who want a candidate who relieves them from the obligation they have long since dodged -- making a *choice*), but people who call themselves strong conservatives rush in to say that's not wrong, everyone can and will respond to rational argumentation and etc. I just don't get it. The people we need to convince are less informed than partisans of either stripe (polls show this all the time) because they don't care as much. So already they're bored by politics. We know they tend to vote on bullshit stuff like temprament and charisma; hence Prez-o-dunce Barack Obama. We know they avoid making political choices; hence them rewarding any candidate who gives the a "best of both worlds " formulation, even if it's nonsense -- like Clinton's determination to keep abortion safe, legal, and RARE. (Well, two out of three ain't bad!) So these are the facts. This is what we're dealing with. I say this, though, and we have a big game of shoot the messenger, like it's my fault that people kind of suck.

118 Why, yes. Yes I do. Thats why I'm known as "that asshole who is too damn skilled to run off" around the work place. I gotta be me

You know what? Congratulations. I mean that sincerely.

But know that you're the exception to the rule. It's the rare individual who is considered irreplaceable.

And in politics, everyone is replaceable.

119 >>It's just odd that people don't recognize that you can't run around going full-on TRUTH 24-7 in politics. It goes beyond this. My personal hobbyhorse is that many people often dismiss candidates because of where they come from or how they acted while in those areas. It's easy to be a hard core conservative when you live in a hard core conservative area and have a hard core conservative political establishment. Not so much when you live in an area dominated by liberals. I find Christie's actions much more admirable because he has to fight for every inch because of the environment he operates in than say Daniels. That's not to say Daniels isn't doing good things but its a hell of a lot easier for him to get very conservative things done that for Christie to even get things we would considerate moderate. And when candidates go to the national level the environment is almost always split or often against conservatives.

120 96 Until one of these teachers employs the self immolation tactic, I'll remain un-impressed with their commitment to the cause.

Posted by: Daffy Duck Classic at February 18, 2011 01:35 PM (sHj00)

Nuthin like a goodly amount of gun powder.

 

121 High Speed Protests

122 ^{I'm meek and law-abiding...}

^{Posted by: HeatherRadish stands with Scott Walker at February 18, 2011 01:42 PM (nAOMZ)}

C'mon Heather, your a moronette. I think the moron nation should be loud and proud supporting Gov. Walker. Yes?

123 I can smell the stench of the protesters from here, and I'm in Waunakee across the lake.

I used to stop at the quilt shop there, back before I ran out of room to store fabric.

Oh, and Radish, make sure you're all up to date on your Tetanus shots and Hepatits Vacines before tomorrow!

And pinning my name and address to my underpants, so they can ID my body (was told to write my SS# on my arm in Sharpie, but I don't want anyone to steal it).

124 *you're*

125

What an idiot. The other day I said Christie was lying about his reasons for not joining the ObamaCare suit. I said it was a clever lie, but a lie the same, and I didn't say it was principled. How can a lie be principled?

Whatever dude. You're an extremist, frankly, on EVERYTHING, and yet you think you know what appeals to people so far from your way of thinking it's not funny.

You deride me as a squish. Fine, I'm a squish. Who is closer then to a real squish (an independent) and can better guess at what will appeal to them? You, the extremist waiting for the world to end so you can bugger off to the woods, or me, the squish?

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2011 01:38 PM (nj1bB)

Hey uh ace,  perhaps you should try and take a bit of your own advice on how you like politicians to act.  I know you get sick of being bashed as a RINO/squish/McCain lover etc. everytime you give your criticism.  But this going on continuously gets tiring.

126 >>>ny idea what is exactly required for the governor to declare a seat vacant and in need of replacement election? (I'm sure he could probably appoint someone, but elections would both work better and be hard to court challenge.) based on the west virginia example (where the governor had a lot of leeway as to when to declare byrd's seat vacant, even though he was dead) I'm going to guess this is a vague part of the law in Wisconsin. I'm going to guess it's a know it when you see it sort of thing and will depend on the Supreme Court giving the blessing. So I' think you couldn't even begin to think about declaring seats vacant until a fair amount of time had passed, like a month. Then? Maybe. These are all guesses.

127 Heather: The MIL works there now. And it's within walking distance. I should probably own about half the store now with my stash.

128

Ace, I agree with your points.  I was only saying clarity is the common strength.  Now, Obama was stealthy mainly in the way his press coverage ommitted whatever they could to make him look mainstream.  His campaign had plenty of leftist markers all over it, but the MSM shaped him and carried him to the election. 

You can't ignore the media machine that, once in his pocket, did everything they could to minimize his errors and maximize his made-up image.  Too, they went into full tear-down mode on Hillary and then the GOP.

There is a distinction between running for office and governing once in place.

Ideally, trainglulate, immulate Reagan, stay above the frey.  But they crucified Reagan at the time and there was A LOT of read meat conservative issues that were left for dead because Reagan was on the defense ( from the RINO's, the press, and the dems ) his entire Presidency.

129 >>>Hey uh ace, perhaps you should try and take a bit of your own advice on how you like politicians to act. I know you get sick of being bashed as a RINO/squish/McCain lover etc. everytime you give your criticism. But this going on continuously gets tiring. You're tired of me pouncing on oblig.?

130 Or are you taking my pouncing on oblig to be a pouncing on you? Oblig. is aptly named. He is obligatory. Everything he says is predictable. Everyone sucks but him, and there's no point in fighting, because the world is ending. That's not an attack on you.

131

Barack's gotta love a riotous mob of Union Thugs-

That is what Community Organizing is all about!

 

132 like it's my fault that people kind of suck.

Hahaha!

I  had a female employee who hated my guts. I didn't care that much, but it's always better to have a drama-free workplace.

I found out through the grapevine that she thought I was rude and uncaring.

So you know what I did? I made sure I asked her about her personal life and listened to her babble about a bunch of stupid shit I didn't care about  for a minute or two before getting down to the business at hand.

Worked like a charm. She thought I cared about her personal life, so she became a fan. I got better work out of her.

I supposed i could have instead dug in and told her, "You're here to work, you fucking imbecile! I don't have time for your stupid personal shit. You're on the goddamned clock now let's get to it!"

But that wouldn't have been as effective. So I went for the small lie--pretending I gave a shit about her stupid life--because it cost me very little.

133 S L A Y E R!! That was kewl. Needed that bit of wakey wakey heh.

134 I'd imagine that next year, Catholic schools in Wisconsin will see hundreds, if not thousands, of new enrollments.

135 >>>Conservatives have tried for decades to truly find common ground, and have oftentimes gone way over the lefty line to show how willing they are to find common ground, at the expense of what's right for our Country. Reality is, the left thinks common ground is wayyyyy over on their side, kind of like how Fox News is seen as right wing. I know, but it don't cost you nothin' to say it. Like, for example: I really want a lot of liberal readers because I look forward to having a civil exchange of ideas with all people of good faith. I can say bullshit like that. *No cost.* It's a freebie, baby.

136 because the world is ending.

Of course the world is ending. But, when?

137

BTW, remember all the crying over the fact that Bush's "election people" were the one protesting in Florida in 2000?

And how there's no noise being made about Obama's actual election people organizing and leading these protests and the media response.

Democrats and the media. BIRM.

138 >>> I was only saying clarity is the common strength. Clarity is *often* a strength. To get elected, sometimes it's very useful to be vaguer, so more people think you're saying what they believe. Like Clinton's safe, legal, and rare formulation. Sounded good. Let people who weren't pro-life but were very uncomfortable with abortion think he was going to make tangible changes to make abortion rarer. Didn't happen. Was pure bullshit. Pure, brilliant bullshit.

139 ^{I'd imagine that next year, Catholic schools in Wisconsin will see hundreds, if not thousands, of new enrollments.}

^{Posted by: The Q at February 18, 2011 01:51 PM (AXHCj)}

My son's Catholic school is certainly open. The problem is that the bus service is provided by the public school system, and that shuts down when the public schools are not in session. That is only supposed to happen for snow days and the like, but this crap is causing all sorts of headaches for parents who aren't even involved with the public schools.

And yes, I expect good teachers will jump ranks, too. It can only help the Catholic school system in the end.

140 But that wouldn't have been as effective. So I went for the small lie--pretending I gave a shit about her stupid life--because it cost me very little.

Posted by: Warden at February 18, 2011 01:50 PM (V6HDd)

Seriously, that has got to work better than turning the TV volume up while your wife is telling you what a terrible day she had........

141

You're tired of me pouncing on oblig.?
Posted by: ace at February 18, 2011 01:47 PM (nj1bB)

130 Or are you taking my pouncing on oblig to be a pouncing on you?

Oblig. is aptly named. He is obligatory. Everything he says is predictable. Everyone sucks but him, and there's no point in fighting, because the world is ending.

That's not an attack on you.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2011 01:48 PM (nj1bB)

Niether really.  I don't consider it attack on me because I'm tired of both sides.  I'm sick of the Purge all the RINOs!  I'm sick of the Purge the social cons!  But you are saying that you like a candidate taking a more "diplomatic" approach if you will, and you're not doing that.  And this always degenerates from the point you and oblig. have started.  Its not always you and its not always him, but this stuff just keeps popping up and going down the same road.  You feel attacked and so attack back and it will go on and on, and then someone will mention the P name, either negatively or positively, and then eventually we get to the person who has decided that they are the Martyr for their anti-fandom of her.

So if you're going to be of the mind that oblig. or whoever else is going to be unflinching in their way of doing things, shouldn't you be the one to try and act the way you prefer to see politicians act?  More like Walker, and less of a firebrand like Rush.

142 I find Christie's actions much more admirable because he has to fight for every inch because of the environment he operates in than say Daniels.

I agree 100%.

I know people are worried about his gun control stance, amnesty and Cap and Trade, but I'm willing to give him room to nuance his way out of it if he takes a run at the presidency or VP slot.

Because the ONLY issue that matters RIGHT NOW is getting our fiscal house in order. And that means razing the public employee unions and salting the earth behind us when we're finished.

He's one of the people most likely to do that. He's also AWESOME at being a hard ass on this issue without coming off as the bad guy, so I'm on board.

143 Like Clinton's safe, legal, and rare formulation. Sounded good.

My favorite was his slogan on AA:  mend it, don't end it.  Can anyone tell me one thing he mended?  Yet he got away with it, and progress on this was stopped dead.

144

You can be forceful like Christie or Walker (or Kasich, soon, I guess) but still throw in the silly-shit "I am looking foward to hearing the good ideas of the Democrats" and the absurd "I want to unite all people of good faith" horseshit.

Posted by: ace

 

Kasich I know a lot about.  When he was in Congress, he used to walk in the 4th of July parade in Westerville with a '67 Chevy carrying his banner (symbol of thrify). He also called himself a "cheap hawk",in that he wanted to control DoD spending, too.  He said last fall that "The parties are just vehicles, the problems have to be solved by the center, by consensus from the right and left."

Again, sounds good, but I don't know if he really believes that or not, or whether it is just so much boilerplate.  He was in Congress for 20 years, chairman of the Budget Committee after  the '94 election.  He knows where the bodies are buried.  My ultra-lib sister hates him (she is a state employee). 

145 It is going to get out of hand. The Liberals were this close to implementing their agenda and they won't take a defeat on the eve of victory well. I expect them to enact a Scorched Earth Policy.

146 of course I want to work with the other side
And in those rare instances when the actually have a good idea steal the credit for it.

147 Obama's formal Bill Ayers connection with the Annenberg Foundation began with their plot to direct the Chicago Public Education System agenda, then to mandate from the state level before overwhelming the entire national educational system. When Obama ran for Senate, Stephen Diamond, UCSantaClara Law Professor (specializing in Labor) researched and published extensively, documenting everything about Obama's Chicago work exploits and political intrigues.

There's no way in hell that Obama's going to roll over teachers with his betrayal bus now. They are his biggest fans with the most pervasive hold on the nation's population. Obama could not politically survive without his teacher unions to brainwash the public at school.

148 And in those rare instances when the actually have a good idea steal the credit for it.

Obama is very good at this.  I'll give him credit for that.

149 CR update: Health care and ObamaCare defunding amendments upcoming. The House has 18hrs of debate and 103 amendments left to discuss.

_{/No, I'm not going to watch it all.}

150 >>>So if you're going to be of the mind that oblig. or whoever else is going to be unflinching in their way of doing things, shouldn't you be the one to try and act the way you prefer to see politicians act? More like Walker, and less of a firebrand like Rush. You're saying shouldn't I be more diplomatic? Well I guess it's hard to argue with that. It's hard though. Plus oblig. like always in on my ass. I'm tired of him. You know Buzzion, honestly, I feel in my heart like I am doing God's work in trying to find a candidate who can beat Obama and I think, I hate to say this but I think this, a lot of people are working for Barack Obama's reelection and do not realize that they are, because they have decided that somehow There Should Be No Politics In Politics and they are basically demanding either that candidates say things that will prevent their election or that we nominate someone who can't be elected. I don't want Obama reelected. And it will be of very small comfort to me on the day after his reelection to tell people "I told you so."

151 I Fought the Law

152 "But at the end of the day it's the guy who doesn't sound partisan, but is unflinching on principle, who actually gets things done. This is the genius of Christie's act"

Yeah -- unflinching on the principle that guns R bad, m'kay, and granting citizenship to 20M illegals is a great idea with no adverse financial, legal, or political consequences at all. Sure he seems to be doing the Lord's Work on NJ spending, but I'm thinking Christie is almost the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're praising, ace.  He sounds extremely partisan -- his YouTube fights with the teacher's union are legendary -- but, on apparently everything except spending, his principles are those of a squishy RINO. "Thinks like Rush Limbaugh"?  No, I don't think so...

153 What happens when the cops find one of the Dem Senators? Do they have authority to take them into custody against their will?  How awesome would it be to see them brought into the Senate chamber in cuffs?

154 Posted by: snort! at February 18, 2011 02:04 PM (K/USr)

I think the State Senate can compel the police forces to do just that.

155 Great post Ace.

156

You know Buzzion, honestly, I feel in my heart like I am doing God's work in trying to find a candidate who can beat Obama and I think, I hate to say this but I think this, a lot of people are working for Barack Obama's reelection and do not realize that they are

You realize that they feel the exact same way you know.

157 I don't know what to say to that, except that voters need to be flattered some. There is 12% or so of voters who lean right but do not identify as conservatives, because they want to think of themselves as independent, and also because, probably, they think the conservatives are wrong on some issues. I don't know how you pick up that 12% with a candidate who says to them "You're wrong, conservatism is right on everything." I think they'll flee that message because I know they've already been fleeing it all their lives: If they believed that, they'd just self-identify as conservative and always vote to the right. That is, they'd be part of the base already. Since they're not part of the base, they don't like that message. And I do not for the life of me get the people who say "Just use the message they've already explicitly rejected for 15 years; it'll work this time." Thank you, Ace. As a 12-percenter, I feel you have adequately expressed why we aren't too fond of DeMint or the true-con wing's *endless* purity tests / purges. Although I'd disagree with you that DeMint is "right on the issues.". Fiscal issues, maybe. Not social issues.

158 It's good cop-bad cop. Obama plays this game very well. His marxist background convinced the hard-left that he is one of them, so he doesn't have to talk like them. He appropriates right-wing verbiage to cover his socialist policies. He sold a socialist takeover of the 12% of the economy as bringing "competition" to the health insurance market -- that's an especially impressive lie.

Obama gives the dog whistles to the hard left, but he leaves it to DailyKos cockroaches to scream, "Fuck you, you white teabagger scum!"

But you need bombthrowers. You need people like DailyKos and the union nazis and the eco-jihadis out there screaming and hurling invective and applying pressure. It lets Imam Obama look reasonable and middle of the road compared to the DailyKos fucktards.

Obviously Obama is just as much of a soulless, leftist traitor as Kos, but he does  a very good job papering over his anit-American marxism with a pleasing veneer of moderation.

159 BTW everything I said applies to everyone. I'm not saying, for example, that Sarah Palin can't do this. She does do it a bit, when she brands her politiics "common sense conservatism." I like the common sense part. I wouldn't stress the "conservatism" thing as much because everyone knows that. I'd push the "common sense" part a lot more. There is a great usefulness in claiming your positions are not ideological at all but common sense. The liberals and liberal media do this all the time. They claim they're not being biased because this is just truth and science or something. That it's only conservatives who are "ideological." I really want our candidates to learn this lesson and just start claiming they're not ideological. It's just common sense to cut spending and bust public employee unions.

160 As for Saturday's counter-dem., I'd like to see a gathering outside the Motel 6 in Illinoise where the Dems are hiding. Bring in the San Diego Chicken and mock them mercilessly.

161

I'm part of the 12% and am really disgusted with being called "unprincipled" by both the sanctimonious left and even more sanctimonious right.  I'm inclined to vote Republican (did in 200 and will in the future if the Party keeps aggressively pushing fiscal responsibility.

But conservatives act like people who don't check all their boxes on the social issues are morally bankrupt.  Can I say this is not exactly the best approach for sweet talkin' voters over to your side?

 

162

We are looking for Ronald Reagan. A politician who can look you in the eye, smile warmly and tell you that you are full of shit with a humorous quote or quip, then make you like him in spite of yourself. There ain't that many...

163 >>Because the ONLY issue that matters RIGHT NOW is getting our fiscal house in order. And that means razing the public employee unions and salting the earth behind us when we're finished. Yep. We are in full blown financial meltdown right now and while other issues are important the are an order of magnitude less important than getting our financial shit together and putting us on a sustainable path.

164 ace I hear what you are saying.  However, I think we are at a stage in the country when we must have politicians that will actually reverse the things Obama achieved.

It's not enough just to gain control and do nothing.

This is the debate that needs to happen. 

If we had elected just "electable" candidates in Wis, nothing would be happening there.

Convince us otherwise, but don't call us "extremists".

165 >>>You realize that they feel the exact same way you know. I know. All I can ask is, "Was Kos right or wrong when he said Obama wasn't a good lefty candidate because he 'talked too much like a republican'?" Kookoo. Kos was wrong. I saw what Obama was doing and said "That fucker's going to win and he's going to be the most leftist president in history." And so too are wrong are the people who think Kos wasn't wrong, he was just advocating that sort of ideological rigidity with respect to the wrong ideology, that this will work like gangbusters with the conservative message.

166

Die By the Sword

Posted by: SLAYER! at February 18, 2011 01:29



Fucking killer. One of the bands I played in used to do this song. Throwing slayer out to a rowdy crowd was like fresh meat in a lions den. lol

167 Damn, Ace, when you're good...... you're GOOD

that's why I come here--that and the frisson of sparkling commentary

Walks like Limbaugh but talks like the uber-moderate so many folks love & admire

Chris Christie, only slimmer and Better

168 145 I agree.  As The Reckoning, proceeds, I expect the Dems to burn the cities.  I will not be surprised to see the unions resort to physically harming opponents and their family members.  It will get more ugly with time.

169 And so too are wrong are the people who think Kos wasn't wrong, he was just advocating that sort of ideological rigidity with respect to the wrong ideology, that this will work like gangbusters with the conservative message. ------------- Kos is very left wing, but he's also very savvy in terms of winning. He plays the part of the left wing fire brand perfectly, and by comparison validated Obama as a 'moderate'.

170 Libyan soldiers open fire on protesters. Several eastern cities are under the control of protesters.

171 Actually, I think we may be able to breathe easier anyway.

I thing Obama has jumped the shark with this Wis mess.  This is the beginning of his political demise.

172 I don't want Obama reelected. And it will be of very small comfort to me on the day after his reelection to tell people "I told you so."

Ok. You and Warden have convinced me. I have been resisting this message.  Politics is the art of persuasion and nuance.  I get that.  It is also part of the reason people hate politics and politicians, they have to lie to advance the agenda.  I hate liars. I want a flame thrower, a truth teller. Scorched earth.

However. This country will not survive 4 more years of Obama. It will not.
I am open to whoever can convince me they will do this one thing.
 Fix the financial situation before we go the way of Rome.
 I personally think it is too late- entirely because of the nature of politics.

173 thing, think, whatever.

174 Dude(s), first we elect a Republican prez and a R majority in the Senate next year

then we 'roll back' what Hussein has done

without the power to Roll--with Reid and Hussein and the media and all the Usual Suspects in unison against any roll back--it ain't Time yet

soon, my weary brothers.  Soon

( if that strategy don't work.........

 I CAN SEE HARPER'S FERRY FROM MY HOUSE  !!!!!11111!!!!  )

175 It's NEVER TOO LATE. This is America fer crissakes.

176 Amendment to strike Planned Parenthood funding passed easily.

177 176 Underage hookers hardest hit.

178 If the Governor issued an executive order for all to be in legislative attendance, then whoever  comes upon an AWOL Legislator could make a citizen's arrest.  Offer a $5.00 reward/bounty. Either deliver the Democrat to the nearest State Highway Patrol, Republican Sheriff or directly to their Capitol building for a quorum and vote.  Would the regional state gun laws accommodate someone carrying?

179

176

ah, time to crack a beer.  thanks for the good news

180 >>> ace I hear what you are saying. However, I think we are at a stage in the country when we must have politicians that will actually reverse the things Obama achieved. It's not enough just to gain control and do nothing. ... I agree with that. I hope you know that. >>If we had elected just "electable" candidates in Wis, nothing would be happening there. ... but those candidates were electable, Cherry. Do you not get that? By "electable" you always assume we mean "moderate." No, that's not true at all. We mean the most conservative candidates possible and in Wisconsin Walker was possible. You guys continue claiming that this is a single-dimensional thing -- who's got the most conservative message? There are at least THREE key dimensions -- message, suitability for voting population, and CANDIDATE QUALITY. That is, someone with a background like Joe Miller can push harder than a Christine O"Donnell because Joe Miller can always fall back on biography. Which O'Donnell can't. And yeah, I know Miller lost. But on paper he was a great candidate and I have no problem with him pushing hard for super-red conservatism. (You see, though, how that can backfire -- No, Alaskans were not eager to give up their subsidies and pork and unemployment benefits. That's the reality. Wishing that reality away doesn't change it.) I supported Walker and never said a bad word about him. (I didn't say much good about him, either, because I didn't cover him much (there were a lot of races!), but when I did mention him I didn't undermine him. I'm sorry, but what you're not picking up on here is that some people seem sober, calm, reasonable, and intelligent, like Walker, and they can therefore push a message harder, and some people frankly seem like they're cranks or idiots or weirdos, like Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell. And I think it is just crazy to keep on saying "We only care what the message is" when you know -- you HAVE to know -- that is NOT the only thing people vote on. And yeah I canvassed for Sharron Angle. So I did some work for her. Was she a good candidate? No. In a Republican Tsunami she lost to a deeply unpopular hack idiot like Reid. So you tell me if she was a good candidate, or if we should have gone with a "squish" like Sue Lowden or Danny Tarkanian. This idea people have that strategic thinking is somehow "dirty" or "inauthentic" is going to result in heartbreak and disaster.

181 By the way, Jane Norton would have almost certainly won in Colorado but we "voted with our hearts" or something and got the goofball loser Ken Buck. At some point people have to stop with this "vote with your hearts" thing. Yeah, you've got a heart. You've also got brains. Why does the heart get to make the thinking decisions?

182 Mayan Desk Calendars, Mayan Roman Calendars, Mayan Wall Calendars, Mayan Magnetic Calendars, Mayan Pocket Calendars, Mayan Ovulation Calendars, Mayan Hebrew Calendars, Mayan School Lunch Calendars, Mayan Far Side Calendars, Mayan Lunar Calendars, Mayan Swinsuit Calendars, Mayan Solar Calendars,Mayan Gregorian Calendars, Mayan Chinese Calendars, Mayan Hindu Calendars, Mayan Egyptian Calendars, Mayan Assyrian Calendars, Yes, we are Serious! We have all of these and more, more, more. Mayan Calendars for Sale! Mayan Jenkins Calendars, Mayan Penteconted Calendars, Mayan Runic Calendars, Mayan Rumi Calendars, Mayan Remi Spencer in that RED DRESS Calendars, Good God, did you see that Red Eye?  She was on last night, too...Mayan Holocene Calendars, Mayan Invariable Calendars, Mayan Ancient Macedonian aka Mayan Gypsy Calendars!

183

if any of you are listening to Rush

dem senator says he did his job, by not voting on legislation...that they didnt' have time to reveiw/read         omg    healthcare, anyone??

184 The tripe has no links?

185 179

176 I'm waiting for the O-Care defunding amendments right now, but I was definitely glad to see that. The House debated it for 3hrs last night and few Dems expressed concern for the recent recorded actions of Planned Parenthood. It was disgusting.

186 Wait, that's sock spam.

187
It's just a question of balance.  A few squishes are good.  Too many... and the soup is ruined.

188 Won't ever forgive Angle for running a chitty chitty campaign

Won't ever forgive the R primary voters of Nevada for nominating her over State Senator Sue and Tarkanian's kid

( either of whom would have beat Reid like a big loud drum )

she and they have caused me to be forced to listen to that whiny old lying POS granny-boy scum-sucking politTurd

189

165 "Was Kos right or wrong when he said Obama wasn't a good lefty candidate because he 'talked too much like a republican'?"

Kookoo. Kos was wrong. I saw what Obama was doing and said "That fucker's going to win and he's going to be the most leftist president in history."

To be fair, Kos and a lot of the moonbats actually think Obama's a Republican who's going to shatter their liberal dreams.

I don't think Kos was posturing or playing a part when he said that.

190 Well thought out, Ace. I know I have been on your case as wussing out lately, but you are exactly correct here. And would everyone please stop bellowing that the GOP house has caved, before they actually do. I know we been burned in the past, but give Boehner and company a chance, before stringing them up, ok?

191 186 Wait, that's sock spam.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 18, 2011 02:21 PM (SJ6/3)

What the hell, it makes a more interesting read than anything erg ever posts.

192 Being a pessimist, if Walker and the WI legislature manage to rollback collective bargaining I'll go out, buy a hat, and eat it. While predicting the events that will take place is impossible, it's almost equally impossible to imagine public unions getting a comeuppance. Has collective bargaining been rolled back anywhere in the last twenty years? Note this precludes Reagan and PATCO. I want to believe, but it's so hard to see how the union can lose. Anyone want to bet that if WI eliminates public union collective bargaining, Barry will direct Holder to obtain an injunction against WI and sue the hell out of the state, somehow? I'm certain our "constitutional scholar" in the WH believes that such an elimination of collective bargaining is "unconstitutional" and violates the Wagner Act and the Taft-Hartley Act.

193

"But anything national or statewide? It just doesn't work."

Works fine for the Dems - their firebreathers get re-elected again and again, and no one ever calls for them to tone it down.

I would agree that not every GOP'er can be an aggressive bastard, but having a few national/statewide ones wouldn't hurt.  Hell, look to Winston Chuchill - he wasn't adverse to getting nasty.  Yes, sometimes it hurt him, but if often helped, too.

194 1st ObamaCare defunding amendment up now. It bars Health & Labor Depts implementation funding.

Passed.

195 but give Boehner and company a chance, before stringing them up, ok?

Can we just keep the rope loose?

196 "Kookoo. Kos was wrong"

The difference is, leftist politicians who fly a moderate flag of convenience ARE really leftists. They do not "go native" and become moderate.  Occasionally they will ACT moderate...but they always keep the goal in view. Move Left.

"Right leaning" politicians who act/speak as moderates (e.g. using the left's vocabulary) AREN'T.  They either ARE stealth lefties or ARE actually squishy middle of the roaders. They believe the crap they spew.  They do NOT keep the (presumably right-side) goal in view.  Or, if they started with their heart on the right, continued exposure to D.C. makes them go native, AT HEART.

The left makes tactical feints to the center, as part of maneuver towards their left wing goal. The right ACTUALLY moves to the center.

Hence, our country races to the left when the D's are in control, and ambles to the left when the R's are in charge.

That's why conservatives are PISSED when they hear this crap from politicians: it's not tactical; it's not deceptive -- it's WHO THEY ARE. It's never just a feint.

197 MarKos is mentally ill; so are most of his Frequent Readers of his diseased blog.  They go there to vent--essentially the same as those inmates who throw their feces on the walls of their cells

Unfortunately, in politics, it sometimes happens that the lunatics get the keys to the asylum.  Kos and other loonies got a Leninist self-absorbed dipshit elected POTUS

Hard times ahead, brothers.  Hard times.......

198 Anti Nascar bill DIAF.

199 King Amendment not allowing any funding whatsoever passed. 

200

193 their firebreathers get re-elected again

Which national firebreathers were successes?

Presidency: Clinton, Obama, & Carter portrayed themselves as moderates

Senate: Teddy Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, & Schumer are probably the three biggest firebrands in recent memory. What states do they represent?

Ace is right - at the national level, in a contest involving states that aren't hyperpartisan in one way, firebreathing doesn't work.

 

201 Good piece, Ace.

A lot of what you've said is why I get so pissed off at the purity folks.  Take Boehner, for instance.  I am quite sure he is prepared to shut down the government.  But, he just can't say it.  And when the time comes, he has to keep saying he's willing to work with the other side, and even make it look like it was totally the Dems fault for shutting down the government.

This in-your-face shit might sound good for the rabble (who seem to believe they are a much bigger percentage than they really are), but winning with a smile and finesse gets those independents/centrists/whatever to come along for the ride.  It is the only way we are ever going to win the presidency back (at least without a charismatic actor like Reagan - and notice I said "actor" - he knew say one thing and do another.).

202 Is anyone out there disgusted that the House refused to touch Biden's Amtrak? he House of Representatatives Thursday approved cuts of various sizes for various government programs, but rejected a proposal to cut $446.9 million in Amtrak funding for the current fiscal year 2011.

203 Hence, our country races to the left when the D's are in control, and ambles to the left when the R's are in charge.

Well said.  That's why we want change - a real conservative that can speak "moderate".

204 Several eastern cities are under the control of protesters.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at February 18, 2011 02:13 PM (SJ6/3)

Okay, if you are controlling a city you are no longer a protester. You are either a rebel or a revolutionary and you shouldn't be surprised your life is on the line.

205 Churchill accepted the Labour programmes after he became PM again in 1951. 

He was not a hard core Rightist in domestic matters, but a Cold Warrior and strongly anti-Hitler back when that was unusual

206
Ok. You and Warden have convinced me.


Well, there you go guys. The arguments can be tiresome, but they also serve a purpose.

I mean, mostly i just come here to sockpuppet and make thoughtlessly snarky comments, but occasionally I try to influence other people.

For every commenter, there are dozens of lurkers. They're reading and weighing the arguments. And people sometimes do reverse their positions.

I know I've changed my mind on things based on other people's arguments--ace and JackStraw to name two, but there have been others who have influenced me as well.

207

@19: "Bipartisanship is nice, but it cannot be a substitute for action, not having it cannot prevent us from going forward.  - Nancy Pelosi

Let the GOP take this quote to heart."

Are you kidding? We LOVE that quote - so much so that we built our entire world around it.  It gets a little muddled after the first three words, but man, that opening is beautiful.  "Bipartisanship is nice" might, might - mind you, only be trumped by "In the beginning" as the greatest three-word phrase ever.  The greatest two-word phrase? "I surrender," or, in plural, "We surrender."

208 >>>Being a pessimist, if Walker and the WI legislature manage to rollback collective bargaining I'll go out, buy a hat, and eat it. Can anyone tell me your thoughts on simply lying here? There is an easy way out here. Walker and the Republicans can just say they've caved and withdraw the bill and then when the Democrats come back they reintroduce the bill and pass it. Will that fly? I sort of think it's pretty dangerous... but... it will work. Not sure of how that would shake out politically though.

209 Actually just two senators would have to claim they will vote with the Democrats until it's negotiated, and then they can say "Psyche, we lied.' That would protect walker and the others to some extent, though most would assume (probably correctly) that they were in on it. As you can tell I'm kind of cynical and I don't mind a few lies here and there. I don't mind lying to liberals.

210 Posted by: ace at February 18, 2011 02:31 PM (nj1bB)

Isn't it like Congress in that bills have to be scheduled? The Dims see the schedule and just head for the bus again.

211 King Amendment barring paying salaries of those involved in implementing ObamaCare passed.

Emerson Amendment barring IRS from using funds for the individual mandate passed.

212 Ace: I don't think at this point the R's can outright lie. Bad juju. I think we need to come out of this smelling like a rose, not a skunk. Otherwise the next four years will be a nightmare.

213 >>>. I am quite sure he is prepared to shut down the government. But, he just can't say it. Oh, I'm not sure at all. I worry he will buckle. But, I see what you're saying -- whether he would or would not there is a danger in appearing eager to do so. That's a good negotiating position, but if you do shut it down, you have to make sure blame falls on the other party.

214 >>>Ace: I don't think at this point the R's can outright lie. Bad juju. probably not.

215

202

"Get out the rope!"

- half of AosHQ

216 Well, the Demotards in WI have to come back eventually. Perhaps the way things are set up, the bills to be introduced have to be announced to legislators beforehand, so then they could just leave again. If I had to make a baseless guess, I imagine the Dems will agree to return and the unions will agree to take a very modest cut in return for withdrawing the bill. Walker may bite on that, if the MBM makes matters ugly enough. And we're back to square one.

217 With so many amendments, is this thing still passable?

218 >>>Isn't it like Congress in that bills have to be scheduled? The Dims see the schedule and just head for the bus again. once they're there you can prevent them from leaving. Cops are empowered to pick them up if they're derelict in duty.

219 Actually just two senators would have to claim they will vote with the Democrats until it's negotiated, and then they can say "Psyche, we lied.' That would protect walker and the others to some extent, though most would assume (probably correctly) that they were in on it. Let's hope they are that clever.

220 Also, at this point, outside of the clowns protesting downtown, most folks wish the teachers would just shut up and teach. Gov Walker is right when he says the protesters are outnumbered by regular folks who would like to send their kids to school to learn the basics and leave the political crap to politicians.

221 once they're there you can prevent them from leaving. Cops are empowered to pick them up if they're derelict in duty. If Walker can pull that off, I'm buying a fifty gallon drum of caramel-butterscotch pudding. Purely a precautionary measure, you understand.

222 once they're there you can prevent them from leaving. Cops are empowered to pick them up if they're derelict in duty.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2011 02:36 PM (nj1bB)

Yes but they aren't derelict in their duty till the bill comes up in session. They aren't in session when the schedule comes out.

223 The problem I have with your basic premise is that perception of one person gets inflicted on all.  In other words, a liberal calls Rush Limbaugh a bomb thrower and you pick up the label as if it's true.  And it becomes true forever more.  It happened just the other day with Rush.  He had a liberal caller who called him a racist.  Mediate's headline was "Rush explodes at liberal caller".  The Right Scoop posts the same clip and headlines it "Rush blasts liberal caller".

Rush didn't "explode" or "blast" anyone.   He never raised his voice.  He showed more patience than I would have.  I've been listening to Rush now for over a year and I'm amazed at how even tempered he is.  He is not ANYTHING like I expected him to be.

But you call him a bomb thrower.  That's what wrong with conservatives.  You'd rather spend countless hours dissecting every fart from Dave Weigel and David Frum but you have no problem advancing every rotten thing a liberal has ever said about Rush or Mark Levin.  Now HE's a bomb thrower and I love him for it!  I bet you cringe over Sean Hannity, too, don't you.  Of course you do.  You're well trained.

224 202 Is anyone out there disgusted that the House refused to touch Biden's Amtrak? [...]

It is disgusting. I also have a feeling that effort was led by the Appropriators-- who were still whining about further cuts today, BTW-- and by those who have AMTRAK in their districts. However, the Rs have held together strongly on a majority of other amendments save 5 (somewhere near), so I'm not ready to toss them out on their ears just yet.

225 So, either the Gov shuts down or Obamacare is defunded.

226 American Thinker reports: The National Education Association Gross receipts: $337 Million (88% Dues) Political Contributions and Lobbying $50.4 Million (99% to Democrats) Contributions, gifts and grants $89.0 Million (100% Liberal Organization) American Federation of Teachers Gross receipts $225 Million (90% Dues) Political Contributions and Lobbying $18.8 Million (99% to Democrats) Contributions, gifts and grants $3.6 Million (100% Liberal Organizations) Total political contributions and Lobbying: $ 69.2 Million Contribution to Liberal causes $92.6 Million Source: www.teachersunionsexposed.com/unions.cfm Total money numbers culled from filings with US Dept. of Labor.

227 Being a pessimist, if Walker and the WI legislature manage to rollback collective bargaining I'll go out, buy a hat, and eat it.

The bill only prevents "home health care workers" and "family child care workers" from collectively bargaining with the state.  

I think that's a reaction to the drive in Michigan to force babysitters to join SEIU.

But you know the left, never let the facts get in the way of a good hate.

228 >>> In other words, a liberal calls Rush Limbaugh a bomb thrower and you pick up the label as if it's true. And it becomes true forever more. My goodness, are you really claiming he is not a bomb thrower? What am I? Am I a bomb thrower? Am I foul-mouthed? Am I frequently unfair, partisan, cutting, etc.? Limbaugh is a bomb-thrower. Come on! "Accepting the premises of liberals" is not the same as accepting reality or accepting the common definitions of terms. "Bomb-thrower" is not a wholly negative term -- bomb-throwers have their usefulness. But yes, he's a bomb-thrower. He is deliberately provocative and polarizing.

229

Can't they just call one of the dems' cell phones and trace them?

Call google.  They know where everyone is ... even before they go there.

230 Rush is da man,

231 Someone isn't a bomb thrower if the object of the talk is an incendiary device, to start with - as is the case with dems.  Rush lays out the truth.  It just feels like bombs, because of the nature of the people he's talking about.

232 >>>HE's a bomb thrower and I love him for it! Can he win an office, dude? This is bizarre. if you don't know the word "solipsistic" look it up. Yes, you love him. FWIW -- I kind of dig him myself. That is not the same as saying his tactics would be useful in getting elected. This is fanboyism. Or this is treating politics like it's a spectator sport where a Jet fan proves he's a fan by just always extolling the virtues of the Jets. I really like Ann Coulter. Now, would I suggest Ann Coulter run for statewide office? No, I wouldn't. And she knows that. She knows she couldn't win, despite being qualified and astute and right on the issues.

233 @227 Well, there you go. I'm less enthusiastic about the bill now, I hoped it was more wide ranging. At least it has this: Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum. Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Yep, the "Collective Bargaining is Dead" howl is a flat out lie. Period.

234 proteinwisdom coined a phrase, teaCHbaggers

235

"Bomb-thrower" is not a wholly negative term -- bomb-throwers have their usefulness.

I agree, however, Bomb Wearers are more effective. 

Have you seen any of the Madrassa Baseball Teams qualify at the Little League World Series?   Neither have I.  

My people throw like girls. It's sad, but true.

Best to just strap the explosives to them and be done with it.

236 The Blackburn and Jordan Amendment opposed by the Appropriations Committee just failed. They had a good idea to further cut spending and Appropriations had all their subcommittee heads speak against it-- which was cowardice-- but Jordan made the mistake of letting the OMB decide the cuts. That was an unnecessary fumble that played into Appropriations' hands.

237

Ace, Rush is only a provocatuer ( bomb thrower ) in the sense that he ashews politically correct speech and has had the NERVE to question the MSM and their framing of any given storyline.

You can't control the way wacko lefties react, and they react so wildly because they cannot stand to have the meme questioned and their control of the storyline exposed. 

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.  I'll argue or disguss with a leftard if they can keep it on facts instead of feelings and emotion... and of course, you can count the number able to do that on one hand.  They are passionate and emotional and you can't talk to them ... at least in my family.

 

238 I'm happy to have "independents" on board, but I refuse to "shut up about 'social issues'." 

If you're for killing babies, expect to be called out for it.  Don't like that?  Go to hell.

239 I thinking of joining the Dims at the Clocktower Resort. To Illinois morons: Hold a meetup here and even Ace might show up.

240 >>This is fanboyism. Or this is treating politics like it's a spectator sport where a Jet fan proves he's a fan by just always extolling the virtues of the Jets. What did I do to you? The Jets are bestest team in the whole wide world!!!!

241 Honestly, the proposals in Walker's budget with respect to teachers' unions appear so reasonable and anodyne, it buggers the mind. Buggers, I said. They're still left with leverage no taxpaying private worker ever has. Cheesehuffing bugfuckers.

242 The Tilted Kilt Girls.

243 #233 Uh, there's a LOT more in it than just that:
It most definitely *is* about killing the unions.

I posted this on another thread, but there are these gems:
12% of health insurance premiums, and 5.8% of salary into pension.
For this, Walker has stated:
A) No layoffs
B) No furloughs
C) No union dues unless you want to be in the union
D) No automatic deduction of union dues for anyone...you must write out the check once per month if you want to pay them.
E) Oh, and the union has to hold a vote to re-certify every year.
F) The unions cannot collectively bargain for anything other than salary increases, and those are capped at CPI unless a statewide referendum is held.

244 claiming they're not ideological.
 It's just common sense to cut spending and
Common sense
bust public employee unions.
ideological

I'd actually like to hear ways we could get unions to be non-corrupt and responsive to market forces.

245 ruh roh.  Did I break the italics?

246 ace I hear what you are saying.  However, I think we are at a stage in the country when we must have politicians that will actually reverse the things Obama achieved.

It's not enough just to gain control and do nothing.

This is the debate that needs to happen. 

If we had elected just "electable" candidates in Wis, nothing would be happening there.

Convince us otherwise, but don't call us "extremists".
Posted by: Cherry π

I agree with that. Given where we are and what has happened, we can't keep going downstream singing, "don't rock the boat".

The so-called "electability" factor is completely unpredictable, mere hype spewed by the candidate owned by globalists, wittingly or not. McCain was "the most electable" '08 potus candidate.

Also, the "extremist" label is misused purposely and too frequently. as with the DHS Napolitano early memo targeting veterans, conservatives as radicals to be eschewed by officials and by the general public.

When activism became apparent from conservative quarters via the Tea Party movement, "extremism" became a smear tactic performed by everyone so proud to have read Alinsky's rules for radicals and practicing the tactics out for themselves, inappropriately targeting good competition in order to contain the political platform within the same ol' same old. Let me specify "centrist" purists who extinguish critical historical points by smearing the messenger as radical, extremist, or radical extremist.

247

Which national firebreathers were successes?

Presidency: Clinton, Obama, & Carter portrayed themselves as moderates

Ace is right - at the national level, in a contest involving states that aren't hyperpartisan in one way, firebreathing doesn't work.

 Posted by: The Q

 

This is ridiculous. The three national examples all claimed to be moderates, and WERE GIVEN COVER BY THE MFM. You left that little detail out. All three showed their colors before, during and after their campaigns.

 

Try this for a premise: It is far more difficult for a Conservative to be a fire- breather and be successful than for a Leftist to be one.

 

That premise can withstand a falsibility test. the first cannot.

248 It's pretty easy to paint the Dems as the party wanting the government shutdown when they physically run away to shut down the Legislative branch of a state government.

249

Right, cell phones too I bet I bet.

Don't cancel the cell phones. Use them to track down the little bastards.

250 @243 Seen all of those, and still it leaves the unions in much better shape than any non-union taxpayer. Besides, does anyone think the teachers will not roundly vote to re-certify their union every year? Of course they will. Still, it's good to force them to do it in return for the incredible power of collective bargaining, despite its restriction to salary. And that CPI cap is perfectly reasonable. Private workers get no automatic, legally-enforced salary increases. Every change you mention is pure awesomeness, and if the unions are for real, they can make their services valuable enough to convince teachers to pay their dues. However, this is far from actually eliminating unions' monopoly-like privileges. But I like it.

251 A leader's supposed to say stuff like "of course I want to work with the other side" even if he's frankly lying"

OK, I'll start. Even down this far.

Of course I want to work with the other side, even if;

1- He's a lying, socialist, liberal sockpuppet, constitutional scofflaw, Marlboro puffing, spendthrift, anti-democracy thug who takes it up the squeakhole from every penny ante dictator in the world.

252 I'd actually like to hear ways we could get unions to be non-corrupt and responsive to market forces.

Posted by: Dave at February 18, 2011 02:57 PM (FbRAx)

By not allowing closed shops (or anything of the like, as Walker is stopping them from stealing money from every employee's paycheck as if the union were the government taxing them at will).  Without this sort of coercion and force allowed to the unions, they become nothing more than a bunch of people tying their jobs together and bargaining together.

Of course, by the same notion, management must also be allowed to decide if it wants to bargain with collectives of workers, or not.

Of course, if you do these things, then unions disappear.  Unions have no reason for existence other than force and extortion (of both the business and employees).

253 t's pretty easy to paint the Dems as the party wanting the government shutdown when they physically run away to shut down the Legislative branch of a state government. Excellent point.

254 But conservatives act like people who don't check all their boxes on the social issues are morally bankrupt.  Can I say this is not exactly the best approach for sweet talkin' voters over to your side? Exactly. I'm a social moderate, and an independent (primarily because I'm a social moderate), but I always considered myself a conservative type of indie. And this past election, I SHOULD have felt more at home with conservatives than ever before, considering social issues were pushed to the back burner and fiscal conservatism to the forefront. Around the time of the O'Donnell primary victory, however, the "true conservatives" emerged, and suddenly, anyone who wasn't a fiscal con AS WELL AS a so con, or someone who challenged the wisdom of nominating certain conservative candidates due to questions of electability, was nothing more than an "Establishment" "RINO candyass" piece of shit who was no better than a Democrat. And the Jim DeMint's of the world have helped push that.

255

Which national firebreathers were successes?

Reagan.

256 Unions have no reason for existence other than force and extortion (of both the business and employees). Mish over at globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot makes this point frequently.

257 Orwell,

You *really* think people will write checks to the union every month?  I doubt it.  The non-negotiating on anything but salary, and then only to a small cap, removes any real incentive people have for keeping the unions around...

I'd be willing to bet that they'd be gone in a few years.

258 On the topic of this thread, whichever moron noted yesterday that except for budget items, a simple majority makes a quorum in the Senate, was a genius. 

Now is the time for the Wisconsin Republicans to pass all the non budget stuff  that the Democrats hate, even the stuff that barely gets a majority of the Republicans.

The Dems will come a running.

259 I don't think at this point the R's can outright lie.

As if they haven't been all along?

Look who is gullible. Ex.: GWBush/Paulson ultimatum that unless Congress passed TARP immediately, martial law would result. Then again, if you believe that, who's extremist?

260 >>>I want to believe, but it's so hard to see how the union can lose. Anyone want to bet that if WI eliminates public union collective bargaining, Barry will direct Holder to obtain an injunction against WI and sue the hell out of the state, somehow? I'm certain our "constitutional scholar" in the WH believes that such an elimination of collective bargaining is "unconstitutional" and violates the Wagner Act and the Taft-Hartley Act.

This constitutional scholar right here (who has lived in Madison over the past several years, no less) will be happy to tell you that you're wrong.  The collective bargaining agreement was passed via state legislation around 50 years ago, and it can easily be undone by legislation now.  Moreover it's not a Federal issue in any way.  We might have to worry about the WI state Supreme Court, but that's got a reliable conservative majority right now.  And even if it didn't, it's hard-to-impossible to imagine the legal pretext for a suit.

261 You *really* think people will write checks to the union every month? I doubt it. The non-negotiating on anything but salary, and then only to a small cap, removes any real incentive people have for keeping the unions around... I'd be willing to bet that they'd be gone in a few years. Depends on what the unions deliver and they will be desperate to keep teacher loyalty, but I hope you are right. If you are, this budget will be a brilliant coup.

262 The bottom line is that you have to pick your battles. You can be a bomb thrower if the issue is right. You also don't have to lie regard to your position on delicate issues. People can tell when you are being disigenuous and that will lose more votes than it will gain. I know it will lose my vote. You can explain away any position based on principal and still garner the respect of people who disagree with you.

263 The collective bargaining agreement was passed via state legislation around 50 years ago, and it can easily be undone by legislation now. Moreover it's not a Federal issue in any way. Excellent. I was wondering about this. Let's hope Barry doesn't do another end run around clear law.

264 By the way, why doesn't something like the Wagner Act supersede state law?

265 Ex.: GWBush/Paulson ultimatum that unless Congress passed TARP immediately, martial law would result. Then again, if you believe that, who's extremist?

Posted by: maverick muse at February 18, 2011 03:09 PM (H+LJc)

You can bet your ass they believed that was a possibility.  It was.

The problem was that the solution (to move private liabilities onto the public books) was worse and just kicked the can down the road - along with moving a mainly economic problem (though there were some very serious monetary issues) into a real monetary problem.

Congress had responsibility to take care of the monetary issues, only, but it acted on the economic issues, while they were at it.  But, you are kidding yourself if you don't think the credit crisis was very, very serious.  As to waht would have resulted from it, that is not known, but it would not have been a ride in the park. And it won't be when we hit the eyewall coming at us - especially after the big mistakes I outlined above.

266

247 The three national examples all claimed to be moderates, and WERE GIVEN COVER BY THE MFM. You left that little detail out. All three showed their colors before, during and after their campaigns.

If you're saying that those three showed some far left positions before being elected, that's true, but it's also true of Bush 43. Bush 43 was talking about a hypothetical war with Iraq back in 1999.

That does not contradict the point - that those four presidents (and Reagan) presented themselves as moderates, at the very least in tone.

Howard Dean, Jesse Jackson, Pat Buchanan, Bob Dole (in 198 - they were firebreathers. They were bombthrowers. They were people who did not pretend to be moderate.

Carter, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama all claimed to be moderates, and they won. Reagan may have showed his cards a little clearer, but he was not even close to the firebreathers mentioned above.

267
Boehner or McConnell will say, "Of course I want to work with the President and hear him out and figure out where we can move forward with shared principle"

Huh. And how many times did Tip O'Neill declare Reagan's budget DOA? Why is it that the President Present gets to say I won and Boehner doesn't?

268 You *really* think people will write checks to the union every month? I doubt it.

I'd be surprised if the unions didn't create an "independent" organization that automatically withdraws membership dues, like a gym or health club to which members are automatically enrolled as a union perk.

269 I'm sorry, but what you're not picking up on here is that some people seem sober, calm, reasonable, and intelligent, like Walker, and they can therefore push a message harder, and some people frankly seem like they're cranks or idiots or weirdos, like Sharron Angle and Christine O'Donnell. And I think it is just crazy to keep on saying "We only care what the message is" when you know -- you HAVE to know -- that is NOT the only thing people vote on. Not to open up a can of worms......but this is what makes things immensely frustrating dealing with Palin fans. Some of them get furiously angry whenever you broach the subject of electability. I get that they think she is electable. I understand that some of them think she is the only one who can beat Obama. What is immensely tasking is trying to get them to even remotely consider that hey, maybe the last 3,836 polls on the subject aren't all biased, maybe she DOES have some problems with Indie voters. Because as you said, ace, if one is a squish, shouldn't that make one more in tune with what other squishes think? Well, as an indie, I can tell you that indie voters are not overly obsessed with "the message". Systematically trying to eliminate from consideration anyone in the GOP field with moderate appeal is the absolute wrong way to go. As Ace said, you need a candidate who can believably say moderate / centrist things, and be satisfied in knowing in your little conservative hearts that he won't actual be a squish.

270 Great article Ace!  I enjoyed reading it.

271 >>>By the way, why doesn't something like the Wagner Act supersede state law? I would guess because states are sovereign and the federal government's power over them is limited. There is probably an explicit exception in the act to reflect this.

272 By the way, my girlfriend (yes, the one that some people around seem to enjoy calling a crypto-liberal slut for not being a fan of Sarah Palin) is in B-school in Madison right now, and she's going down for the counter-rally tomorrow to support Scott Walker.  She says that a ton of people in the B-school, at least, are rolling their eyes endlessly at the protestors, especially the high school students who make it evidently clear that they don't even understand why they're 'protesting.'

Ace, FWIW I've spoken to some people who work on the GOP State Sen side of the legislature -- and the good news is that according to my friends (one of whom is a chief-of-staff) these protests have had the absolute opposite effect intended.  In fact, there was real danger in not getting the plan through EARLY ON, because (admittedly) this is some really bold radical stuff from Walker.  But the school shutdowns, the endless death threats (you wouldn't believe some of the stuff their FAMILIES are getting), the busing in of out-of-state protesters, and finally the comical flight of the Senate Dems have stiffened their resolution immensely.  Before this all went down smart money would have bet on a few defections from the GOP side in the Senate (2 in particular, making it a razor-thin 17-16 victory).  Now?  Now I'm pretty sure they're all going to be on board.

Also, my chief-of-staff friend tells me that the internal polling is absolutely toxic for the unions right now.  And you have to understand that WI is a pretty heavily unionized state.

I'm very confident this is all going to go down as a major victory for us.  I predict Walker may allow the Dems to attach some meaningless amendment to the bill to let them save a bit of face (remember what Ace said about 'moderate in tone?" Wisconsin ain't a red state yet), but it's all going through.

273 Posted by: Vyceroy at February 18, 2011 03:15 PM (tXSkq)

Hey Vyceroy, are you the same poster as "Vyce" from HotAir?  If so, way to go on fighting the good fight over there.  My god, I read those comments and I sometimes want to smash my laptop.

274 But, you are kidding yourself if you don't think the credit crisis was very, very serious. -- Henry Harold Humphries - you can call me 'H'

No, I did not say that the credit crisis was not real. The TARP example proved that Republicans lie, since it was propagandized as a quick fix on our national economy. Getting any accounting for all our TARP tax funds lost to globalist banks will never happen. And threatening Americans with martial law if they don't fork out globalist bank bail-outs was my point in reflecting upon who is extremist and what is radical, specifically when Republicans are at the helm.

275 The physical checks idea is inspired. They should be kept in a box sitting atop the Sergeant-at-Arms' desk where they can be picked up.

276 Also, my chief-of-staff friend tells me that the internal polling is absolutely toxic for the unions right now. And you have to understand that WI is a pretty heavily unionized state. Oh. Oh. The pudding feels so soothingly cool. More pudding.

277 Some candidates can take a very conservative message and make it appealing to the center. Like Reagan. It really depends on how good a candidate someone is. Obama didn't really make people believe in leftism. He just made it sound appealing to independents. So did Clinton. My problem is usually not with a "strong conservative message" so much as it is with the candidate not having figured out a way to put it that makes it sound not "conservative" so much as common sense. I hear what Vyceroy is saying about Jim DeMint. My problem with Jim DeMint isn't with his principles so much as I don't see him crafting a message in such a way as to make his principles sound good to independents. he's sort of just laying down markers/threats with his own caucus, but not doing much to take the message out there to middle so that the middle will like it more (and his own caucus will be then more likely to go his way). Some candidates are defining themselves expressly as Right of Right, heroes of the conservative caucus of the conservative party, and that's fine, someone has to serve that role, but come on, do some of the harder work of persuasion/evangelization too. Not everything can be preaching to the choir. You have to recruit new members to the choir, too.

278 Interesting, Jeff. Jeff, can you send me this guy's email? I just want to run what you said by him, get him to confirm or comment, so I can put it up.

279 Why is it that the President Present gets to say I won and Boehner doesn't?

Because our side isn't nuts.

280 She says that a ton of people in the B-school, at least, are rolling their eyes endlessly at the protestors

B-schools are usually the bastions of good sense at big universities.  From what I hear, it was the B-school that blocked U Chicago from getting an HDr slapped onto him. 

281 Nothing's wrong with propaganda so long as it's based upon scientific fact and historically documented studies available for scrutiny.

But go the way of the lie, be the deceiver, and explain again why voters should think they can rely on your validity this time.

Ex: McCain. 

282 >>Interesting, Jeff. Jeff, can you send me this guy's email? I just want to run what you said by him, get him to confirm or comment, so I can put it up.

Don't have his e-mail on me.  I'll call him later tonight and see if I can convince him, though.  He's a pretty no-drama/no-press sort of guy, though, so I'm doubtful. 

283

Here's something not_steve_in_hb suggested: They're probably all set up for direct deposit payroll payments. The governor can (I'm thinking) stop direct deposit payments and start writing physical checks, which have to be picked up in person.

 

Cutting off their state-issued travel cards would surely get them back home as they are not about to foot the bill for their vacation from responsibility on their own dime. Further, unless they are on official state business, those cards are being misused.

284 Cutting off their state-issued travel cards would surely get them back home

+1

285 JeffB, have you been to the Tilted Kilt?

286 >>JeffB, have you been to the Tilted Kilt?

Nah, we usually skip the usual drinking spots, they're usually undergrad hellholes and besides money is always an issue.  We practically lived at Dottie's for a period of time, however.  Had a nasty effect on my waistline until I gave it up. 

We live right on Lake Mendota, about 3 minutes away from the Union, to give you a sense of our personal geography.  The Capitol is about a 10 minute walk down State Street from us.  (I say "us" but I'm not there right now, sadly...I'd give anything to be back in Mad City right now.  Just to troll the hippies if nothing else...all those cliches about "The People's Republic of Madison" are absolutely 100% accurate.)

287 Hey Vyceroy, are you the same poster as "Vyce" from HotAir?  If so, way to go on fighting the good fight over there.  My god, I read those comments and I sometimes want to smash my laptop. Posted by: Jeff B. at February 18, 2011 03:22 PM (NjYDy) Yes, that's me. And I'll tear down the fourth wall here a bit....I really am a social moderate, so when I argue a lot over there about, for example, gay rights, it comes from the heart. But, but....I suppose I do deliberately rile people up over there about Palin and a few others. I don't hate Palin. I disagree with her on issues, and I sadly do think she's unelectable, but I see value in her role in conservative politics and I have some admiration for the woman (although perhaps in different ways). But some of the people at HA are really crazy about her, and not in the good way, in the very disturbing, very creepy way that the Obama zombies used to act. And those are the sort of Palin fans who do not seem to want to listen to any reason, won't consider that maybe she has legit flaws which need to be overcome if she is to be taken seriously, who think all polls - ALL of them - which show her with high unfavorables or losing to Obama MUST be wrong and/or biased. I mean, there are people there who turned on Mike Pence - about as conservative a guy in Congress as you could want - over the mere RUMOR that "GOP insiders" wanted him to run to neutralize Palin's support in the primaries. I argue with them because, yeah, I think the "Not-Palin", whomever that winds up being, might have the best shot in 2012, but also because their hero worship of her is unsettling and is going to scare the shit out of moderates and indies if she makes it to the general.

288 >>Also, my chief-of-staff friend tells me that the internal polling is absolutely toxic for the unions right now.  And you have to understand that WI is a pretty heavily unionized state.

Just to walk this back a little bit, "absolutely toxic" is not the phrasing my guy used, that was me editorializing and honestly going to far in a fit of enthusiasm.  What he said, rather, is that we're definitely winning the PR war.

And as a note of caution, the situation is fluid, as always.  Things could change, and I don't want to be the guy sitting here holding the bag if it somehow all goes pear-shaped.  But as things stand?  This is backfiring.  Madison is not the state as a whole. 

289 No, I did not say that the credit crisis was not real. The TARP example proved that Republicans lie, since it was propagandized as a quick fix on our national economy.

Posted by: maverick muse at February 18, 2011 03:22 PM (H+LJc)

Don't forget, TARP was a product of the dem Congress.  The only real opposition to TARP was from the House GOP, and they were getting destroyed over their opposition.  They forced the first TARP to go down in flames, which at least allowed a few safeguards put into the second version, but that was still total shit, too.  But America was scared shitless -and for good reason - though the TARP solution was done totally incorrectly.  But the blame for that goes 50-50 between the dem Congress and Bush.

Most of us commenting on bomb-throwing right wing sites were saying that TARP was a scam and that it would never be used for what they claimed (since the $750 billion figure was just pulled out of Paulson's ass, obviously, and based on nothing).  We were correct.  TARP has been used to buy everything BUT toxic assets.

But, again, don't forget, it was the House GOP and conserevatives who pushed back hard against TARP.

290 Get ready. Ohio is next. Yesterday we had 600 Tea Partiers and 3K+ anti- SB5s. The TPs won on class and lost on tactics. Here, if you duck out on the legislature, the sergeant-at-arms can arrest you and charge any costs involved in bringing you in against your pay. I'm cool with the S-a-a doing some high living on that job. I was there and blogged on it, but you'll have to use a search engine because I don't tinyurl fuckyouverymuch Ace

291 Who is paying the tab for their out of state stay? Aren't there bribery and campaign finance laws in Wisconsin?

292

Winning elections also requires keeping your base in the game and not giving them a reasons to stay home.

My problem with politicians frequently called RINOs, Graham for example, is that they think its a winning strategy to grab the indies by calling your base "racists".

You don't win by pissing off or scaring off or repulsing those who might vote for you. I want to win.

My view is this: we shouldn't ask nor expect rightish politicians to throw the bombs even though its fun for us. Its us, the morons and general rabble that needs to get out there and roll out a few verbal grenades.

One on one, small group: I present my argument "reasonably."

In a larger group with one loud mouth leftie: I up it a notch. I know I won't change the lefty, but he's not the mind I am trying to change. Sometimes showing how a douche's argument is stoopid changes the mind of the quiet observing audience or at least makes them receptive to the more moderate pitch of a conservative politico.

293 OH my gosh Ace! I've been saying this for years. You are RIGHT on. This IS how Obama was elected. He SAYS the right thing, then goes on to govern far left. YES, we need to do the same. We have been too honest for too long. There are ways to SOUND, that give off a diplomatic and caring air. The left knew this about Obama. That's why they kept quite when he said all the moderate things he needed to say. This is politics, not church. We can't govern and fix the things that need to be fixed if we can't win. We win when we get that 12% you were talking about.

294 Unions have no reason for existence other than force and extortion (of both the business and employees).

Say hello to my little mine cave in.
Officer BallBreaker has the most arrests so we'll pay him the most even though the lawsuits are killing us.

There's lots of fields where safety, public interest, weakest link, pass/fail only metrics or just plain convenience make unions work.  Teaching isn't one but they got going when they weren't paid spit and now they're a double plus good PITA. 

I was referring to ways to make them adversarial but not hostile earlier.  The list in the WI bill looks like a bare minimum to be non-coercive.  Something that would've balanced the UAW out anytime in the past 40 years & saved GM.  Now it's their turd.  I probably won't buy another fresh one to polish.

295

@200: The media portrayed Obama as a moderate, he portrayed himself as a god.  Checking his record revealed that he was a firebreather, or at least a true believer (biggest Leftist in Senate at the time).  He gave plenty of statements (e.g. chat with Joe the Plumber) that also showed it.  Clinton and Carter were little-known governors.

Reagan was regarded as an uber-Reichwing extremist: voting for him was basically voting for war with Russia.  In no sense was he presented as a moderate.

For the Senate, there's also Dick Durbin, Bernie Sanders (an open Socialist, no less), Reid, etc.

Pelosi didn't run at a national level, but the Dems chose her, an obvious firebreather, for a national position. 

296 Really, nobody cares if it's sadness or anger, as long as it gets done. Liberals don't care whether the money's there or not. They were promised shit, and it's not like they work on Wall Street. Somebody else will pay for it, as long as there are wars. Seriously, they're like, "If we can afford war, then I deserve a million dollars a year in salary and benefits." They are fucking crazy. Walker is just standing up to them. He's doing a great job.

297 So when he says 'I want a social truce," I look at that, really, as likely a lie deployed to win the independents, and I know to a near moral certainty he will appoint strong judicial restraint conservative judges.

BULL FUCKING SHIT, ACE, AND YOU CAN'T HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT. WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO LOOKS LIKE DANIELS EVEN TRY FOR INDEPENDENT VOTERS? WHAT ABOUT OVERTURNING ONLY PARTS OF OBAMACARE AND TINKERING WITH IT? OR HOW ABOUT RATIONING CARE FOR THE ELDERLY?

298 Don't use Hot Air commentors as a guide to how a candidate's base of supporters thinks and acts. That place has locked out new user registration and only has, like, two dozen members at this point. I swear, it's the same few names yelling at each over and over.

299 "A leader's supposed to say stuff like "of course I want to work with the other side" even if he's frankly lying, ..." So we had W. for 8 years, the man who wouldn't publicly defend a conservative policy or articulate a conservative principle if his life depended on it. How'd that work out for ya?

300 Going to the rally at Madison manana?  Speak softly and carry a big stick. Seriously.  I was in San Sebastien, Spain a few years back and saw 50 or 60 people forming up out in front of the hotel, each carrying a 6 foot, inch-n-a-half diameter walking staff.  Only a few had signs on the sticks.  This is Basque country and these people  were obviously good at the march and rally game. 

301 Are you interested in Soccer? Right, you really like playing football. Plus, Soccer is just getting to be a worldwide popular sport nowadays. As fans of Soccer, you should get fully prepared at first. For example, you would better prepare a suitable pair of soccer cleats , a set of soccer jerseys or whatever. Otherwise, you will not enjoy an exciting football match. Anyway, it is necessary and essential to prepare for the football match in a good way.(yang)