1 Irrational behavior cannot be explained rationally.  If anyone on the atheist Left can be thought of as rational to begin with...

2 And First.

3 The "inconvenient truth" of leftism is how easily most of them would toss aside their pacifist and democratic ideals if they were allowed to slaughter (or imprison) their opponents of the right.

4 The universe is a closed system, every effect is related logically and inevitably to a cause, and with a sufficient amount of knowledge and enough computing power, the future of anything can be predicted.

Oh Gawd, why didn't Asimov strangle The Foundation Trilogy in its crib?

5
Verum Serum says the man was not a fundamentalist Christian; hardly a Christian, at all.

More agnostic than fundamentalist, that's for sure.

6 meh. No sense getting excited.

7

The universe is a closed system, every effect is related logically and inevitably to a cause, and with a sufficient amount of knowledge and enough computing power, the future of anything can be predicted

Nope. Thoroughly and decisively discredited.

8 I notice the less they want to make the actual perpetrator suffer the more they want to find someone else to make suffer in his stead, typically whoever it's politically useful to make suffer.

9 I'm still a little confused as to why he killed a bunch of kids if he was anti-Islamic? Why not blow up a Mosque?

10 Never let a crisis go to waste...now where have I heard that?

11 An extremist to be sure, but we should not too quickly rule out Brevik's claims of being part of a network. What Europe has done with the accommodation of Islam is extreme and there is the possibility that Brevik's actions may pave the way for more. After all, the first guy to do it is a psychological nutcase but when it goes on over and over, it becomes warfare... something all to well known and no longer terribly shocking. I imagine this guy sees himself as a kind of sacrifice in order to get something going. The real question is if there is fuel for something to get going. I dont think anyone knows that since the extreme right (for lack of other term for it) has been driven very far underground for so very long. This guy managed to plan this attack for two years with not a suspicion. That either means that Norway is oblivious to nutcases or those of his political persuasion have become very adept at hiding their activities.

Of course, only time will tell.

12 9 I'm still a little confused as to why he killed a bunch of kids if he was anti-Islamic? Why not blow up a Mosque?
Posted by: mpurinTexas supports Rick Perry, bitch at July 26, 2011 02:39 PM (ignDe)

Perhaps he viewed the Norwegian Labor Party as aiders and abettors of those seeking to advance Islamic aims and goals in Norway?

13 3 The "inconvenient truth" of leftism is how easily most of them would toss aside their pacifist and democratic ideals if they were allowed to slaughter (or imprison) their opponents of the right.

Posted by: Johnny at July 26, 2011 02:35 PM (iT/Iy)

Nah.  They'd just stand by and watch.  Imprison, yes.  For we are all criminals in their eyes.  (Hi, Janet!)

14 _{I'm still a little confused as to why he killed a bunch of kids if he was anti-Islamic? Why not blow up a Mosque?}

Because he's a milk-skin skandi pussy.

He knows that the mosque basement is full of racks of AK's and all the men know how to shoot wildly in his direction.

Sick fucks like him like crowds of unarmed victims. It spoils the fun when the victims shoot back.

15 Perhaps he viewed the Norwegian Labor Party as aiders and abettors of those seeking to advance Islamic aims and goals in Norway?


Ok, fine. But shooting a bunch of kids, even if they are associated with the Labour Party?

That's lefty logic there, not righty.

16 Pretty hard to live out a fantasy from The Matrix when some security guard pops a new asshole in your forehead with his .38 revolver.

17

The island held a labor party youth camp.  These folks would have been likely going into politics as labor party officials, into journalism to help the labor party, into education to indoctrinate students to labor party ways, and so forth.  Norway doesn't have many people and the top officials of the labor party just lost a whole bunch of their kids.  This was a very focused strike against what ABB figures is the problem; marxism, uncontrolled immigration, and a number of other things.

He killed labor's seed corn. If he'd attacked what he thought was the problem(s), the labor government would certainly have made the losses good immediately.  So he went to the source, as he saw it.

18 I find it so hilarious, that when we have a lone madman, the left is quick to point out *rhetoric!!!!!* in motivating evil intent.

But when we have Islamist violence, both organized, and planed, harmful rhetoric is suddenly just words, and though widespread, it is only a few fringe individuals.

19
Verum Serum says the man was not a fundamentalist Christian; hardly a Christian, at all.

More agnostic than fundamentalist, that's for sure.

Posted by: soothsayer at July 26, 2011 02:37 PM (sqkOB)

Gateway Pundit also has a good run down on his lack of Christianity.

20 Topical:

A new blog where sarcasm is absolutely not permitted.

Of course IÂ’m beingÂ… whatÂ’s the wordÂ… oh yeah, sarcastic.

21 Is it true that he was well-connected (via family) himself? I wonder if he'd been to that island previously

22 9I'm still a little confused as to why he killed a bunch of kids if he was anti-Islamic? Why not blow up a Mosque?

Posted by: mpurinTexas supports Rick Perry, bitch at July 26, 2011 02:39 PM (ignDe)

If he blew up a Mosque, that accomplishes nothing. Muslims die, more come in, Norway feels collective guilt, the European decline continues.

The kids he killed were the kids of the ruling elite. It was a political camp for their children. The elite in Europe never suffer the same indignities for their reckless policies as the rest of the population. Their kids probably aren't the ones beaten up or raped. This was the first time any of the elites in Europe have actually personally suffered for the suicidal course they've set for their countries.

Again, this was a tragedy. But choosing decline is never easy and the actual decline to the bottom isn't a bumpfree roller coaster ride. There will be more incidents like this in the future. I was more surprised that Amy Winehouse died this last weekend.

23
I concur with Mr Siftington.

Brevik chose the path of least resistance. The youths were easy targets who would not fight back. They were simply a vehicle for his ultimate notoriety. They, as targets, were insignificant to his objectives.

24 What kind of drugs are they saying he took before the shootings?

25 The left just doesn't get that Islam is an organized effort to conquer, subjugate or kill the rest of the world.

26 I just don't get it. The anti-jihad movement is anti-jihad because of the violence inherent in Islam. It makes no sense for someone planning mass violence to try to align himself with a movement that is specifically against violence.

I just can't understand his motivation here.

27 What kind of drugs are they saying he took before the shootings? ------- Conservative drugs.

28 I'm convinced we still don't know the full story.

29 9 I'm still a little confused as to why he killed a bunch of kids if he was anti-Islamic? Why not blow up a Mosque? Posted by: mpurinTexas supports Rick Perry, bitch at July 26, 2011 02:39 PM (ignDe) One guess is that he thought he'd escape and have the world pin this on muzzies, which even the muzzies and al-Jazzera (sp) thought happened shortly after this massacre occurred. Quick note: people have wondered about the slow response time by the police and asked why a helicopter wasn't sent in to get police there quickly. Well, there was a helicopter was available to bring police to the island. Problem was, the entire crew was on vacation. True story, according to today's NY Daily News. Just another WTF moment for humans on planet Earth....

30 26. I am not getting it either. I keep thinking it over - there must be a bunch of missing pieces to this puzzle. I keep thinking he had personal knowledge of the island and the camp - maybe some kind of grudge for something that had happened there?

31 There's a couple of theories about it. 1. is he shot them because they were the children of the ruling class. Killing them leads to fewer progressives to rule in the future. Idiotic strategy. 2. He shot them as kind of a drive by shooting to get them to back off so his crew could deal with the islamics. The man grew up in gang country and learned the street rules about killing and turf. It's like saying leave us alone or we'll butcher your children. He's a fruit cake who should have been put down like a mad dog the day he was born.

32 My post from this morning and their latest call of him being "far right".

More BS on Norway killer and "far right"

Norway killer Anders Behring Breivik had extensive links to English Defence League

A quick search on this “far right” extremist organization reveals that it is an anti-Islamic Sharia law spread in the UK. It was formed from members of the Soccer hooligan culture in the U.K.  You are familiar with these street punks who use soccer as an excuse to riot after winning and riot after losing, mostly they just like to riot.

For the life of me I can not understand how anyone would call these people “right wing” which is normally associated with socialist vs capitalist policies of government.  These people have only one thing as their target and it is the spread of Arab culture in the U.K. and the PC crowdÂ’s allowing English law to be subverted. Personally I see nothing wrong with that they are right. (maybe thatÂ’s why they are “right-wing”).  The problem with these people is that they like to riot and break the law. That really has nothing to do with right-left politics.

33 The left strains to find a parallel in this to Islamist massacres. They'd like to do so, as it's always been a wonderful two-fer for them: Such a parallel permits them to ignore the fact that Islamism really is different, and continue parroting their multi-culti bromides; and, even more importantly, it gins up the necessary hate against their political rivals on the (non-murderous, non-crazed) right.

They continue grasping at that nonexistent thread that will validate their thesis.

34 I read this earlier, it's a great article.

Of course, Islamists have killed 450 and injured 700 in over 100 attacks so far this month. This. Month.

35

But even so the right will be charged with a crime committed by a sociopath.

The day after the attacks, the NY Times ran an article on the tone from the mainstream European right, with helpful photos of Merkel and David Cameron, and references to France's Sarkozy. Gonna be fun.

36 His lawyer says he is crazy. Note that they are not trying to go with an insanity defense either. I don't know if they have one there. In any case he is saying don't try to interpret his words because he doesn't think like normal people.

In other words he is not "right" or "left", he is nut.

37 OT since this is a smart military blog...

John Kerry's Swift Boat partner had his Silver Star revoked

" A Navy spokesman cited "subsequently determined facts and evidence surrounding both the incident for which the award was made and the processing of the award itself." John Kerry has to be hoping this doesn't become a trend."

38 What kind of drugs are they saying he took before the shootings?

-------

Conservative drugs.

-------

Cigarettes, Alcohol, Salt, Trans Fat, non-diet soda, and crushed filaments from 100W incandescent light bulbs.

39 A big difference between Calvinists and modern liberals is that the Calvinists thought the nature of man was basically bad, and the liberals think that man is basically good, unless you are conservative of course. This is why they threw God under the bus. He kept insisting that man was a sinner and needed a Savior.

40
is it the same Swift Boater who campaigned for Kerry in 2004?

41

Ace:

 

YouÂ’ve made a couple of statements that IÂ’d like to discuss a bit.  I am of the impression that the Norwegian Government was at least partly complicit in this massacre.  Bear with me. 

 

You said:

 

<i>There have always been vicious murderers, since the dawn of time. 10,000 years ago, before there was a name for them, there were undoubtedly serial killers.</i>

 

Yes, but the major difference between now and then is that back then, the killerÂ’s victims would have been similarly armed and capable of defending themselves, making the killerÂ’s trade infinitely more difficult to ply.  

 

<i>no government (which is ultimately the expression of the people's mores and beliefs) enabled him and set him out to butcher innocents;</i>

 

And this is where I disagree.  From Wikipedia:

 

<i>The owner must always have a good reason to bring the weapon to a public place. Such reasons include transportation to a range or hunting area, transportation for repairs, or for maintenance and hobby activities.

During transportation, the weapon must be empty and concealed, but not worn on the body, and under the constant supervision of the owner. This applies equally to replicas, air guns and decommissioned firearms</i>

Essentially, Norway functionally disallows its citizens from being similarly armed as the people who would do them harm, as we have been able to be throughout history until recently.  A criminal bent on mass murder is not going to pay such a ukase any heed except to know that it means that his law-abiding victims will be defenseless.  The only thing Norwegian citizens may depend on to give them any security at all is the timely arrival of the police.  Given the inexcusable amount of time it took the Norwegian police to respond to this – as much as 90 minutes by what IÂ’ve read – the Norwegian government has purposely, willfully, and neglectfully left itÂ’s people defenseless against the baser acts of human nature.  

90 minutes.  Will anyone on this blog stand before me and claim that any such action could possibly have gone on for 90 minutes anywhere in America without someone else showing up with a gun to at least try to put a stop to the massacre?  The Norwegian Government carries blame for this.  Their “enlightened” views on gun ownership and control are what allowed this to become such a tragedy.  They have taken good and evil, which have been throughout history similarly matched in armament, and crippled good to leave it at the mercy of whatever evil chooses to arrive. Brevik did it, but they enabled him.  They should be ashamed of themselves.  

42 I saw elsewhere that Brevik considered partnering with jihadists to advance his cause. He's just a nutjob.
 
Clancy wrote in Debt Of Honor (slight paraphrase here) -- America is an incredibly violent culture, the most violent on Earth, but with an adoration of Justice at the same time.
 
I think he shorts the Islamist violence creed here, but there is a lot of truth present. Witness all the calls here at AoS to "take off and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." I may have even suggested this approach once or twice myself. The problem with 'nuke it' is the massive loss of innocent life; ultimately, support for that approach would be weak due to the lack of Justice involved.
 
I think this Justice requirement sets us apart.

43 Also, when teens were calling from the island to report the massacre, they were told by emergency operators to get off the line because police were busy responding to calls about the explosion. After all that's happened in the world, especially over the last 10 years, Norway has shown that it's not prepared to deal with sh**. They have been exposed, and they will probably be someone else's target. Soon.

44 Goober - this is what I strain to understand. And this was mostly college-aged and teenagers. Not like three year olds. I don't GET IT. All I can say is, nanny state or not, this wouldn't fly on a little southern Italian vacation island! That dude would have been taken down . . . by the WOMEN

45 Quick note: people have wondered about the slow response time by the police and asked why a helicopter wasn't sent in to get police there quickly. Well, there was a helicopter was available to bring police to the island. Problem was, the entire crew was on vacation. True story, according to today's NY Daily News. Just another WTF moment for humans on planet Earth....

Posted by: Joejm65 at July 26, 2011 02:51 PM (ylLbS)

Similar experience.  The whole store had the flu when I needed a new suit.

46 is it the same Swift Boater who campaigned for Kerry in 2004?
Posted by: soothsayer

Yup, same guy that introduced Kerry at the convention.

47 by the way I'm loving that Kerry pal story. What a piece of shite that guy was. A freaking pedobear with a fake Silver Star. Lovely people.

48
Goober, don't you have that little formatting bar above your comment window?

49 Because he's a milk-skin skandi pussy.

Posted by: sifty at July 26, 2011 02:42 PM (ECjvn)

+ 1000

50 From The Belmont Club:

The Wall Street Journal writes that the recent terror attack in Norway is turning politics into a game of ‘who knew Breivik?’.

Media reports have suggested Mr. Breivik had links to the British far right and claimed to have been in touch with the English Defence League.

But the EDL denied in a statement late Sunday it had any “official contact” with the 32-year-old.

The prime ministerÂ’s spokesman said any possible links to the EDL was something that should be investigated by the Metropolitan Police and other authorities.

There are likely to be two consequences to BreivikÂ’s attack. The first is legal. Some political associations are now going to become clearly derogatory. Dealing with the English Defence League (EDL) for example, is likely to be seen as damning as dealing with say, the Muslim Brotherhood and as likely to put you on a watch list, at least a secret one.

The second follows from the first. There is probably going to be heightened surveillance and monitoring of such groups. They have been de-legitimized by BreivikÂ’s actions and are much more likely to be treated indistinguishably, as threats, from al-Qaeda in the future. In fact they may rated as more dangerous since BreivikÂ’s horrid competence suggests that they can shoot straighter than al-Qaeda.

51 Now WH is threatening to veto Boehner's bill if passed.

52 I think part of the reason the kids on the island had no clue how to respond was because they haven't grown up in the post-Columbine culture of America.  Although the official game plan is to lock the doors and hide while a gunman haunts the halls, most American teenagers have some sort of game plan of what they would do if one of their classmates started shooting. In fact, there was a school here in Texas that was specifically training students to rush the gunman, but public outcry quickly squashed that idea.

Anyway, those kids in Norway had probably never even thought of being gunned down. It's just outside of their cultural experience. Add in the complete incompetence of the police and the fact that they were geographically isolated, and you have a recipe for disaster.

53 51 Excellent.

54 Was he sniping? If he wasn't hidden and sniping, NO IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE that they just got slaughtered! wtf?!?! Geographically isolated? it was ONE GUY. A high school you are locked inside, rooms, halls, etc. I can see how that is hard. Out in the great outdoors? I'm sorry, I'm just . . . I just don't get it. That one kid (ten years old?) stood up to him after he slaughtered his family. And was let go. So one LITTLE kid stood up to him?

55 @54 He was dressed as a cop and used that to lure his victims out. That and I bet most of them had been trained to be passive in such instances.

56 In fact they may rated as more dangerous since BreivikÂ’s horrid competence suggests that they can shoot straighter than al-Qaeda.

Somebody mentioned that it took this one guy three hours to kill 76 people in Norway, while it took 10 guys two days to kill 166 in Mumbai.

57 I know the left likes to use the term progressive and claim that they want progress while claiming that conservatives are backward knuckle draggers. What the left really wants is control with a new aristocracy of right thinking people with the rest of us being serfs. Its also funny to think that humanity only progresses forward, I think the people of the dark ages following the fall of Rome would like to have a word with them.

58 He was definitely a good shot. I guess no one on the island had like, cell phones or anything where they could communicate with others on the island to WATCH OUT FOR THE FAKE KILLER COP or anything.

59

Any creature that believes he is a member of the Knights Templar does not have a link to sanity, let alone a political movement. 

Clancy wrote in Debt Of Honor (slight paraphrase here) -- America is an incredibly violent culture, the most violent on Earth, but with an adoration of Justice at the same time.

You know, I don't believe the part about America being the most violent is true.  Sure, we do like us some guns and our military will mess you up with drones from half a world away but we don't go around stoning rape victims.

 

60 Brevik had to work hard to hide his true intentions, because the govt of Norway and 99.9% of his fellow citizens would have turned on him and imprisoned him if they had any idea of what he was going to do. Compare that to Bill Ayers where non-trivial parts of the the left-wing establishment and leadership class in America actively worked to hide and protect Ayers -- even after he had committed his crimes. Or the Earth Liberation Front. We know these people are hiding in America today. Most likely in and around American universities. They've committed dozens of terrorist acts. There must be a fair # of people now who personally know these bastards, but won't turn them in. And ELF primarily draws from the leftist ruling class in America.

61 No, ace. He was a principled devotee of right-wing ideology. Why don't you embrace him? Why? Because you're a fucking pussy, that's why.

62 51 Now WH is threatening to veto Boehner's bill if passed.   Of course, was anybody expecting any different?  While Obama didn't mention an explict veto threat during his 15 minute campaign speech last night, his actions make it quite clear that it's his way or the highway.

63 59

Its not that we are an more violent then anyone else, its that the media plays up every instance of violence. For the left it just helps create a sense of moral superiority and cement the idea that America is an evil place that needs changed.

64

BREAKING

White House threatens to veto Boehner deal.

 

I think Obama wants default at this point

65 Now WH is threatening to veto Boehner's bill if passed.

Bring it on. Just bring it right the fuck on.

66 Every time a knucklehead puts into practice ace's lovely theories, ace runs away. It's always "he's a lunatic." Pussy.

67 White House threatens to veto Boehner deal.

No ultimatums, right, Barky!

68 Reading some of his manifesto he states that he is a Darwinist. About the furthest you can get from Christianity.

69
eggmcmuffin has spoken

so shall it be

70 Ace's theories demand the murder of Norwegian kids?

Do tell us where you came across that, eggamoobymuffin, you galactically-stupid lying sack of shit.

71 But even so the right will be charged with a crime committed by a sociopath.

Sociopaths are good at anticipating the results of their plots to put people to use. QED, this guy isn't a sociopath. In fact, judging by his declared intent, I'm not sure he's any kind of mentally off, except that he might be the internet-cut-and-paste version of a graphomaniac.

Look— It's a fundamental (and usually deeply repressed) axiom of any politics that a whole lot of people (opposition, resistance, soldiers of the current unjust order, enemies of the just order of the future, roadblocks in the path of History, etc.) have to be murdered to make the world work how it should. DIY political killing is publicly frowned upon, because it speaks too clearly, but it's not really out-of-bounds.

I'm not talking morally here; this is fact-of-life shit. Our own damn President was mentored and ushered into public life by a not-insane political murderer. Our society, or at least our polity, venerates those guys—enshrines them (in professorships, e.g.). And all those Che shirts mean what they say: "I admire this establishment-approved killer." We just don't talk about it.

This dude's plan was sane, as sane as any political-revolutionary plan. But his plan was shitty. The ironically Marxist "and then the European right will react to the oppressive ruling-class-lefty crackdown I inspire by rising up and..." part of his story can't happen. He mis-launched his revolution because he's insufficiently paranoid to grasp the scope and power of what his side is up against.

It's funny. In a way.

72

"But even so the right will be charged with a crime committed by a sociopath"

Of course it will.  The political Left, which is the ruling power in Western civilzation, has decreed the Right to be evil incarnate.  It's all according to plan.

 

73 _{Posted by: eric rudolph at July 26, 2011 03:15 PM (senk/)}

Don't be all bitter because your show was cancelled Cenk. I'm sure you'll be back suckin dick under the freeway overpass in  no time.

74

I think Obama wants default at this point

Posted by: Ben at July 26, 2011 03:13 PM (wuv1c)

Except that he's admitted (per Fox- link in the main page sidebar) to the banks that there won't be a default.

I really don't get this administration.  If they were rational, I'd say this is actually a tactic (based on what I've heard on the Boehner plan) to get it passed in the House (and then counting on behind-the-scenes assurances to get it passed in the Senate) so he can get his virtually blank check.  But even that doesn't make much rational sense either.

I know they're not rational, but it's truly bizarre to be presided over by an administration chock-full of people who seriously do not view the same reality the rest of us see.

75 We aren't the most violent on earth, not even close. In fact we are one of the lowest in the world. Our homicide rate is 5/100k people. The avg for regions of the world. Southern Africa 37.3 Central America 29.3 South America 25.9 West and central Africa 21.6 Africa (whole) 20 Carribbean 18.1 East Europe 15.7 North Africa 7.6 World 7.6 Europe 5.4 We are lower than all of Africa. In the Americas only Canada and Chile have lower rates. Most of the Americas and Africa have rates 5-6x our murder rate. We are much more violent than Western Europe and Japan.

76 68 Reading some of his manifesto he states that he is a Darwinist. About the furthest you can get from Christianity. Posted by: Bosk at July 26, 2011 03:15 PM (n2K+4) Maybe. This guy heavily cribbed the Unabomber Manifesto. I'm waiting for a more complete analysis of the two to see what this guy actually wrote and what he plagiarized.

77

90 minutes.  Will anyone on this blog stand before me and claim that any such action could possibly have gone on for 90 minutes anywhere in America without someone else showing up with a gun to at least try to put a stop to the massacre?  

Every time I see that my mind just freezes.  I can't imagine any camp of American teens, no matter how wussified, who could not have come up with some way to stop this in 19 minutes, let alone 90.  Sure, maybe there weren't guns at the camp but there had to be rocks.  Tree limbs.  Fire extinguishes.  A truck.  Something, anything, that could be used.  Hell, group rush him and take the guns from him.  Anything.

 

78 you galactically-stupid lying sack of shit.

Naaa.  Mentally Retarded Sponge-fungus.

79 Remember ergie telling us how Jared Loughner was a card-carrying Reagan devotee ordained by Sarah Palin?

80 I think Obama wants default at this point Posted by: Ben at July 26, 2011 03:13 PM (wuv1c) His leftist advisors want default. I don't think Barky even knows what default means. He'll listen to the radicals because...it's about bringing down the MAN, or something...

81 The WH priorities have now shifted. Fixing blame for the historic credit rating downgrade now trumps raising the debt ceiling. WH assumes the ceiling will eventually get raised. Fixing blame on Republicans for the downgrade is now the higher priority.

82 Posted by: nickless at July 26, 2011 03:21 PM (MMC8r)

I try to repress every memory of ergie posting anything.

83 erg must be sittin' in brown skivvies what with his Saviour threatening to take away the gummint teat from his mouth.

84 C'mon, eggamoobymuffin, fucking Internet tough guy. You ran your mouth like the fucking asshole you are, now ante up. Show us where Ace advocated the murder of Norwegian kids.

Make us weep for our sins, you fucking superhero. Do it.

85

Wait, wut?  Didn't you just post something in the sidebar contradicting that? 

Yeah, well I can't figure out why he is stating out loud that he would veto every single plan that may make it through congress.

I'm beginning to think he doesn't want to default and he's telling everyone we won't default, but at the same time he is not accepting any plans.

I can't make sense of it.

86 Any large group of American teens would have kicked this loony's ass.

An American Chess Club would have stuck a bishop in his eye and put a queen up his squeaker.

87 East Asia seems to have quite low homicide rates, although it's hard to get good data on China. Also South Asia has surprisingly low official homicide rates. I don't believe those #s though since every Indian I've known talks casually about how common hit and run deaths are. If you run somebody down in the US as a hit and run does that count in our figures? Pakistan claims to have a homicide rate just slightly above the American one. If they don't count Sharia murders that might explain it.

88 @82, yeah that might be it. I'm lost at this point. Normally in negotiations one side isn't a petulant child.  So I'm not sure where it goes from here.

89 Fixing blame on Republicans for the downgrade is now the higher priority.

Even assuming that, does he give the American people that little credit?  If he's on the record as prepared to veto every plan that has passed, how is this Republicans' fault?  Can the MFM even spin that?

Yes, I know a lot of people still believe them without question, but that just seems to out-there for me to credit.

90

@15: "Ok, fine. But shooting a bunch of kids, even if they are associated with the Labour Party?

That's lefty logic there, not righty."

The Allies had no problem killing the Hitlerjugend during WWII, and they were just a "bunch of kids" compelled by law to be associated with the Nazi party.  Granted, the circumstances are different, but if your goal is the destruction of an enemy ideology, it makes sense in both cases.

91

I'm beginning to think he doesn't want to default and he's telling everyone we won't default, but at the same time he is not accepting any plans.

I can't make sense of it.

He's not trying for default-- he's trying to drive our credit rating into the dirt.  It's the way to ensure a Cloward-Piven collapse, by raising the cost of servicing his massive debt of the last three years.

92

Clancy wrote in Debt Of Honor (slight paraphrase here) -- America is an incredibly violent culture, the most violent on Earth, but with an adoration of Justice at the same time.

I heard the late, great Tony Snow mention something very similar on his radio show one day that went something like this, "Our military is where incredible intelligence is coupled with incredible violence."

And I seem to recall one of the Founders (IIRC) saying something to the effect that that the presence of guns tends to make everyone exceedingly polite to each other.

93 88 The Japanese also lie.Any unsolved murder in Japan is declared something else,suicide,accident etc.

94 and put a queen up his squeaker.

Rook.  Or a Knight.  The queen is too comfortably shaped for that.

95 He was dressed as a cop and used that to lure his victims out.

He did that so many times that the kids in the water initially refused to be rescued. They swam away from civilians and cops in boats, screaming hysterically.

The reason he was able to kill so many is the island is very small; there was nowhere to hide; he had 90 minutes to do it; and his victims were totally unprepared for what he was doing to them. Several approached him to try and talk him out of his murdering and were immediately shot.

Speaking as a victim of an attempted murder with a gun, I can tell you that when you're unarmed and someone is hunting you, your mind completely falls into chaos. No matter what you think you'd do in that situation, believe me that you'll utterly panic because you're completely powerless.

Also, there's something about murder that's different from everything else. I've been in car accidents and a few airplane near misses, but someone trying to murder you with a gun is so horrifying and awful that you literally can't process it rationally. You become an terrified animal.

96 Brevik had a Scary Black Rifle.
Right-wingers like Scary Black Rifles.

= Brevic was a Right-winger.

Solution: Make Global Scary Black Rifle Ban Treaty

For great justice!

97 Even assuming that, does he give the American people that little credit?  If he's on the record as prepared to veto every plan that has passed, how is this Republicans' fault?  Can the MFM even spin that?

I'm guessing they'll go with the usual spin that the R's plan wasn't bi-partisan or just wasn't good and repeat it till it becomes accepted knowledge, SOP.

98

@26: "I just don't get it. The anti-jihad movement is anti-jihad because of the violence inherent in Islam. It makes no sense for someone planning mass violence to try to align himself with a movement that is specifically against violence.

I just can't understand his motivation here."

If someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back. 

99 This whole debt charade is all about fixing blame for the crappy economy in 2012. The Obama-Traitor knows the economy will still suck. So he purposefully created a crisis so he can blame Repubs in 2012. That's it. It's no more complicated than that. It's like you know your marriage is doomed cause you just blew the mortgage on Lotto tickets and got SuperAIDS from a toothless Guatemalan hooker, so you pick a fight with your wife in the hopes that she flips out in public and everybody thinks she's a psychotic bitch and you're an innocent victim and should keep the house and car.

100 An American Chess Club would have stuck a bishop in his eye and put a queen up his squeaker.

eric rudolph says he would like the number for the American Chess Club.

101 _{Rook.  Or a Knight.  The queen is too comfortably shaped for that.}

I was just sticking to what works for me.

102 Every time I see that my mind just freezes.  I can't imagine any camp of American teens, no matter how wussified, who could not have come up with some way to stop this in 19 minutes, let alone 90.  Sure, maybe there weren't guns at the camp but there had to be rocks.  Tree limbs.  Fire extinguishes.  A truck.  Something, anything, that could be used.  Hell, group rush him and take the guns from him.  Anything. Yep. I made this point the day of the massacre. It makes no sense. American culture is 'let's roll', while Norway's seems to be 'roll over'. I got hammered for making this point because, at the time, these were all just a bunch of kids who were in shock and couldn't possibly organize to defend themselves, though many had no problems sending text messages while their peers were getting blasted. The fact that the shooter had to reload at some point carried no weight. I guess there's America, and everyone else. For now.

103 If the children were black, this guy would never have been able to pull this off! An island full of black folks would have beaten this guy silly!

104 When are the Republicans going to come up with a plan?

105 True or not, it was on teh Internets:

http://cofcc.org/2011/07/news-roundup-4/

106 Much of that part of the world has Assanged itself out of all hope for self-defense. They are Eloi. They even look like Eloi.

107 "Was he sniping? If he wasn't hidden and sniping, NO IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE that they just got slaughtered!"

As mentioned previously, Breivik was wearing a police uniform.  Previous reports indicate that some of the early victims thought it was a test, possibly to show how life in Gaza is. Apparently, later victims tried to talk to Breivik, and found out how effective negotiation is when confronted by violence.

Is there any information on Breivik's past, specifically (ex)girlfriends, girl friends, female family members, etc., being victims of muslims? I suspect that there's something really ugly and very motivational, just waiting to be discovered ...

108 and got SuperAIDS from a toothless Guatemalan hooker

Is SuperAIDS what's turned erg's brain to mush? Or is the act of marinating in the toxic irrationality of Marxism for years that does that?

109 I'm guessing they'll go with the usual spin that the R's plan wasn't bi-partisan or just wasn't good and repeat it till it becomes accepted knowledge, SOP.

I guess so, I just don't see that working this time.

If someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back. 

Precisely.

Isn't that kind of the "elephant in the room" here: We all despise what he did (and, if he were in Texas, I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers to put in the needle and push the button), but don't we share his worries about the Islamisation of Europe?

Murder of innocents = very, very, bad (I shouldn't even have to say that, but somebody is going to try to take this the wrong way, I'm sure).

Killing people you believe want you dead = self defense (or at least self preservation).

110

The Allies had no problem killing the Hitlerjugend during WWII, and they were just a "bunch of kids" compelled by law to be associated with the Nazi party.  Granted, the circumstances are different, but if your goal is the destruction of an enemy ideology, it makes sense in both cases.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches

This isn't an apt comparison. First, your example were youths who were nevertheless in organized units, were armed, and frequently launched offensive missions. Second, numerous accounts spoke of their ferocity. Third, many of those same accounts ntoed that the Allied troops were distrubed yf ighting them, though they understood that to be killed by one would leave them just as dead as being killed by a 35 year old.

111 The Clinton administration used the OKC bombing as a pretense to wipe put the legal militia groups in the US even though McVeigh had only tenuous ties, if any, to the militias from what i remember.

112 Posted by: Gerbil Malodor at July 26, 2011 03:31 PM (iiSiW)

from the link: The suspect is a radical moderate

Exactly how can one be radically moderate?  Wouldn't that be like someone being a militant agnostic? "I don't know, and you don't either!"

113

Murder of innocents = very, very, bad (I shouldn't even have to say that, but somebody is going to try to take this the wrong way, I'm sure).

Killing people you believe want you dead and say so repeatedy, so much so it's even a part of their so-called "religion" = self defense (or at least self preservation).

FIFY

114

It makes no sense for someone planning mass violence to try to align himself with a movement that is specifically against violence.  I just can't understand his motivation here.

Posted by: Lauren at July 26, 2011 02:50 PM (4ep/7)

 

One quibble - anti-Islamic movement isn't just about non-violence.  It's a rejection of a depraved/evil way of life.  I see no inherent flaw in the idea that Islam must be met with violence.  That is, in fact, the only effective way to deal with it at all, unless you plan to lay down for it. 

If European governments decided enough was enough and chose to wage war against the muz and all muz sympathizers, whether at home or abroad, I would applaud that action, no matter what extent it went to, because Islam itself is a plague.  Any war against it is an inherently just war, irrespective of tactics employed.  Any western person who stands with the muz is a cultural enemy and deserves the same fate.  However, it is not one' man's place to say that he will wage the war on his own.  Thus, this man's action was not just, even if those he killed were traitors and the children of traitors.

 

115 Posted by: BackwardsBoy at July 26, 2011 03:35 PM (d0Tfm)

I figured I didn't have to add that part, here.

116

Erg weeps because he himself lacks the balls to go full Loughner.

He's not a Red, a Radical,or even a Progressive.  He's a poseur and a phony.

117

I watched the video Brevik posted and read a few pages of his writing. His english is very good for a second language. Also the fact that his planned worked so well just shows he was methodical and fairly intellegent.

God knows most people couldn't plan something like that. Even down to the details he maximized his ability to kill. Wearing the police uniform and then telling hiding kids to come out and then shooting them.  He clearly put a ton of thought into his crime.

I'm feel like I should be surprised that an intellegent person could do such a thing, but I'm not anymore.

Look at the Unabomber, he was a math genius but he still murdered innocent people.

In our war with Radical Islam, I've come to expect the people who commit the actual acts of terrorism to be retards(which they usually are). It's normally the  people who plan them who have a brain and then some stupid schmuck is the idiot who carries it out.

I think this, like the Tim McVeigh attack, just go to show how dangerous one fairly intellegent and committed man can be.

Let's just hope there aren't many more of them.

118 Also, there's something about murder that's different from everything else. I've been in car accidents and a few airplane near misses, but someone trying to murder you with a gun is so horrifying and awful that you literally can't process it rationally. You become an terrified animal.

Posted by: Llarry at July 26, 2011 03:26 PM (uQA8F)

 

I think you should edit your comment to first person.  There is the initial WTF, but 90 minutes is a long time.  Most people that I know, anyway, would have tried something other than running or swimming after seeing the results of each.  Americans are, whether they want to admit it or not, aggressive people.  Yeah, even a 14 year old would have come up with a plan to at least slow this shitwad down. 

119

a couple of points

Norway is a very law abiding place, the fact that he had a cop uniform on would be confusing.

Even in the states, fake cops pull off some huge capers

120 I'm not all that comfortable discussing what the kids did or didn't do right on that island that day.

No one can even comprehend what they were going through. And no one really knows what they would do in that situation unless they were actually faced with such a horrible situation. They're teenagers - they're still kids. I think we should give that part a rest.

121

@75: "We are much more violent than Western Europe and Japan."

So long as a narrow definition of violence/murder is applied.

The simple fact is that very few people on the planet kill like Western Europeans do.  Japan punches well above its weight, too - though until relatively recently they only killed their own.

122

Posted by: Llarry at July 26, 2011 03:26 PM (uQA8F)

I didn't mean to come across like I was blaming the victims, because I'm not.  Hell, I have no idea how I'd react to that situation, other than freaking the fuck out and dying of a heart attack before I could get shot.  I do think there is a huge cultural difference here.  There is no way in hell that a group of American teenagers would attempt to go up and try to talk him out of it all peaceful like after it was clear he was a murdering psycho.  I cannot see that happening.

Also my money would be on the Chess Club in such a situation.  Those little fuckers know how to plan.

 

123 This guy is so stupid, that in his alleged war with Islam, he killed his own people.

124

AllenG, I know, that was for the benefit of those who would take it the wrong way.

They are legion, sadly.

Which ties in with this: I see no inherent flaw in the idea that Islam must be met with violence.  That is, in fact, the only effective way to deal with it at all, unless you plan to lay down for it. 

At some point, and I believe this will arrive very soon, again sadly, we're going to have to become as  more determined than those who want our subjugation or death. It will become who has the greater will to live, us or them. We've seen what they do, we hear what they say, and like the Terminator, they absolutely will not stop.

125

I watched the video Brevik posted and read a few pages of his writing. His english is very good for a second language. Also the fact that his planned worked so well just shows he was methodical and fairly intellegent.

God knows most people couldn't plan something like that. Even down to the details he maximized his ability to kill.

Posted by: Ben at July 26, 2011 03:37 PM (wuv1c)

 

This illustrates the key difference between rational Western man, and irrational/fatalistic Eastern man.  And is why we generally beat the crap out of them in war, without benefit of superior numbers.  We use brains - they use passion.  We believe in our own ability to decide the outcome of our efforts - they believe in random chance and fate/allah. 

126

Hot Air has a quick write up on the 1500+ page manafesto.

go check it out, there is some good info(nice and boiled down)

127 And assuming it is all his work on the Facebook page, Ben, he also posed for nice photos of himself to give the MFM something to show.

Brevik had to work hard to hide his true intentions, because the govt of Norway and 99.9% of his fellow citizens would have turned on him and imprisoned him if they had any idea of what he was going to do.
I've read that the cops had been following him for many months (six IIRC) over buying dangerous chemicals in Poland but decided he wasn't dangerous. So there's another screw-up by the Norwegian authorities.

We will also see if he was on body-building steroids so roid rage may have been at play too.

128 Every time I see that my mind just freezes.  I can't imagine any camp of American teens, no matter how wussified, who could not have come up with some way to stop this in 19 minutes, let alone 90.

Oh, please.  Stop with the Internet Rambo routine, all of you.

We're talking about a bunch of kids who suddenly found themselves being attacked by a heavily armed 32 year old adult.  It's pretty fucking easy to come up with a McGuyveresque plan to take him down, or to advocate a coordinated suicide charge against him from the safety of the Internet.

I doubt a bunch of American teenagers in the same scenario would've fared much better.

129 I'm a 14yo on an island. I hear gun shots.  Then more.  45 minutes later a cop shows up in my part of the big island. I feel relieved and go up to him.  I'm dead.

I don't see what's so hard to understand. 

130

Supposedly he planned this for years.

I think the reason he didn't hit a Mosque is it would have made islamos even bigger victems in certain quarters eyes

131

@96: "but someone trying to murder you with a gun is so horrifying and awful that you literally can't process it rationally. You become an terrified animal."

So, you'd be more rational and in control if he was stabbing, strangling, or bludgeoning you?

132 Oh, please.  Stop with the Internet Rambo routine, all of you.

We're talking about a bunch of kids who suddenly found themselves being attacked by a heavily armed 32 year old adult.  It's pretty fucking easy to come up with a McGuyveresque plan to take him down, or to advocate a coordinated suicide charge against him from the safety of the Internet.

I doubt a bunch of American teenagers in the same scenario would've fared much better.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at July 26, 2011 03:43 PM (SY2Kh)

Thanks.  Saved me from having to say it.

133 Completely OT, but we need to raise taxes to fund this? The National Institutes of Health (NIH) sent more than $90 million of U.S. taxpayers’ money overseas to China for various public health research projects, a new report shows. For example, in a $17 million study, a Chinese researcher from the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention investigated whether 420 prostitutes and 241 of their clients were willing to use “microbicides” (a class of medications that includes nonoxynol-9) during sexual activity in order to combat sexually transmitted diseases. Some of the prostitutes were only 14 years old. http://tinyurl.com/3b2jlhs

134 So, you'd be more rational and in control if he was stabbing, strangling, or bludgeoning you?

Yes, unless it was a derringer.

135

Exactly how can one be radically moderate?  Wouldn't that be like someone being a militant agnostic? "I don't know, and you don't either!"

Have you all signed up for Americans Elect already?  Join the Radical Center! 

136 Posted by: Hollowpoint

thanks, you articulated it much better than I did.

137

This guy is so stupid, that in his alleged war with Islam, he killed his own people.

Posted by: cherry ð at July 26, 2011 03:41 PM (OhYCU)

 

I get what you're saying - I thought that at first.  But upon reflection, I agree with those who have already stated that his likely objective was to attack the root enemy - the Leftists who were responsible for contaminating his country with muz.  If Labor were not there, the muz would not be there.  It's that simple.  Labor, collectively, is little better than a 5th column, undermining the nation from within.  Just like our leftists in the US.  They're a domestic enemy.  And the left has proven that it will cave in to violence or the threat thereof - that's part of why they let the muz live in such anti-leftist ways.

He was wrong to do what he did, but the strategy seems sound.

 

138 Posted by: Reactionary at July 26, 2011 03:35 PM (xUM1Q)

Take your murder fantasies back to Stormfront, douche.

139 Most people that I know, anyway, would have tried something other than running or swimming after seeing the results of each. Americans are, whether they want to admit it or not, aggressive people.  Yeah, even a 14 year old would have come up with a plan to at least slow this shitwad down.

Yeah, I know. That's what everyone says.

If it ever happens to you, you'll learn differently.

140

And assuming it is all his work on the Facebook page, Ben, he also posed for nice photos of himself to give the MFM something to show.

I was going to point that out. Am I the only one who thought to my self, "isn't it odd that this guy has so many studio quality photographs of himself well dressed?"

He clearly had thought this completely.

Also, cherry at 130, i agree with that assessment. If I'm a kid and there is a ton of shooting and a guy with a cop uniform calls me out to tell me everything is okay, I probably come out. Especially if I live in a society where police impersonation and mass murder are very very uncommon.

141

I doubt a bunch of American teenagers in the same scenario would've fared much better.

Agree.  My plan would be run like hell.  That's about it.

142

This guy is so stupid, that in his alleged war with Islam, he killed his own people.

meh, the muslims terrorists do it to.

Who have muslim terrorists killed more of, Westerners or Muslims they consider sympathizers?  The answer is obviously other muslims.

Same thing with this Brevik wack job.

 

 

143 Where were the adults during all this? Was there no supervision on the island? No adults to write emergency contingency plans (i.e. if someone is badly hurt how do we get them help)?

 Even if you didn't foresee this type of event a decent emergency plan should have given them a better response time than 90 minutes.

144 I'm not all that comfortable discussing what the kids did or didn't do right on that island that day.

No one can even comprehend what they were going through. And no one really knows what they would do in that situation unless they were actually faced with such a horrible situation. They're teenagers - they're still kids. I think we should give that part a rest.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 26, 2011 03:41 PM (pLTLS)

 

A large group of teenagers on an island with no adults?  Where were the adults?  Haven't really heard anything about that.

145

I have a question if anyone knows the answer please fill me in.

I was under the impression he arrived on the Island in a police vehicle or some sort of vehicle, how did that vehicle get on the island?  A ferry?

I mean he had to have a car right? How else would he sneak enough ammuntion and a gun onto the island?

Has that part of the story been sussed out?

146 he apparently ran out of ammo

147 Oh, please.  Stop with the Internet Rambo routine, all of you.

You did see the part where I admitted I, personally, would freak out and die and the part where I said that I'm not blaming the kids because I am not.  Just wanted to make that really really really clear. 

148 There were adults there. You're right tho, Lacey - we should stop doing this. I should stop. Mea culpa, for sure. I'm sorry. Again, I really think there is just not enough information here to analyze either the killer or the situation. We're missing like 700 pieces out of a 1000 piece puzzle.

149

And I seem to recall one of the Founders (IIRC) saying something to the effect that that the presence of guns tends to make everyone exceedingly polite to each other.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at July 26, 2011 03:24 PM (d0Tfm)

I believe that was Robert Heinlein - "An armed society is a polite society."

150

he took a boat to the island, acting as a cop

 

also

the real cops overloaded their boat and semi swamped, that also delayed when they could get there

151

I have not seen a round count, but I think he had less than 300 rounds

not sure though

152  Haven't really heard anything about that.

I agree with you there. I find the 'political camp' immensely creepy. But it's not their fault they have shitty-hippy-dippy-sit-around-a-campfire-in-a- political-circle-jerk parents.

Most of these kids aren't even buried yet. It's just tacky to have the conversation.

153 He was wrong to do what he did, but the strategy seems sound.

???

1. You're a dick. This is like debating Hitlers final solution.

2. How many leftists would it take to make an actual dent in the number available to "undermine a nation from within"

How did his plan get to that number?

Since he had no viable plan that actually shifted politics OR demographics his direction, guess what...He was a deranged mad man who had vague hopes that the exposure that would come from him performing a heinous and terrible act would somehow promote sympathy to his overall cause.

3. You are helping him with that goal by merely suggesting that killing a bunch of kids on an island was strategically OK to achieve his goals. In effect green lighting domestic terrorism for the purpose of gaining an audience.

4. You are a dick QED

154 So, you'd be more rational and in control if he was stabbing, strangling, or bludgeoning you?

I have no idea. Never experienced those. But I've had someone chase me through a dark parking lot, trying to shoot me with a Tec-9 machine pistol while screaming obscenities, and even though I had all sorts of plans about what to do in that situation, I found myself running as fast as I could before I knew what was happening.

Something else: PTSD and flashbacks are real. In the past 13 years, I've had three flashbacks, triggered by meeting someone with the same voice, or the same body language, or the same smile as the gunman. In all three cases I suddenly found myself blindly running in the opposite. It's entirely involuntary.

155 Oh. And in the manifesto he makes clear that he's not a practicing Christian but an ethnic one (like being a secular Jew and not an observant Jew).

A related critical thought: Libertarians want to build skyscrapers; anarchists want to blow them up.

EDL party leader defends the party at the BBC.

Several more defences of conservative anti-jihadist blame here.

And lastly and leastly, Charles at LGF was quoted by the dick more often than any of the European anti-jihadists. (Follow the link embedded in the "Ooooops" twitter message.)

156 Yamamoto had no desire to invade the US proper; he knew that he would be facing individual armed soldiers hiding behind every blade of grass. Leaderless perhaps, but all imbued with the same personal mission of 'today you may not pass!.

157 In all three cases I suddenly found myself blindly running in the opposite. It's entirely involuntary.

Posted by: Llarry at July 26, 2011 03:57 PM (uQA8F)

 

that is pretty much how it works

The US military spends alot of time training to not do that and orrient to the fire

158 I disagree about the difference between Calvinists and Liberals. Liberals do NOT think that humans are good. Oh, they may sometimes say it, but they also call us a "cancer on the planet." We are bad, we are stupid, and we need liberals to tell us how to live properly.

They are Calvinists -- in fact it's startling how white liberals in America tend to be in the areas originally settled by Calvinists (with California as the big exception). They've given up God but they still believe we are inherently corrupt and sinful. Instead of Christ as the redeemer, they've substituted . . . themselves.

159 a crime committed by a sociopath.

That sick grin in that photo of him through the car window.   He's got no remorse.  No empathy.  It's like he has no concept of what he's done.  He the photogenic version of Loughner. 

160 A large group of teenagers on an island with no adults?  Where were the adults?  Haven't really heard anything about that.

There were some adult "guards" there but they were unarmed. I posted a link to a story that discussed one who was killed and was related to the Norwegian royals.

Also for all those who keep saying he was in "police uniform". The official report says he was not. He was in blue coveralls with some kind of patch, but it was not a police uniform.

161 The US military spends alot of time training to not do that and orrient to the fire

Hurrying to the sound of the guns is not a natural reaction.

162 Sifty, did you get on TV or did president pee pee pants preempt you too?

163

based on what I've read

I think... that he thinks.... he's a soldier defending his culture

More will shake out about this over time

164 You did see the part where I admitted I, personally, would freak out and die and the part where I said that I'm not blaming the kids because I am not.  Just wanted to make that really really really clear.

Yeah, my comment wasn't directed solely at you, but more than a couple of people in this thread have trotted out the "The kids should've stopped him like American kids probably would've" card.

165

also

the real cops overloaded their boat and semi swamped, that also delayed when they could get there

I also saw something today about how they couldn't get their police helicopter off the ground for some reason. I'm guessing there was quite a bit of turmoil after the bombing that occurred shortly before the shootings.

166 they could not use the 'copter initially because the normal flight crew was on vacation

167 So, if Breivik is really a terrorist - will the Norwegians now give him a state? I mean, they demand to give Pali terrorists a state. They adore Yasser Arafat (who murdered 2000 people, most of which of course were just lowly Jews). Why not give him a state? Why not give him hundreds of millions in "humanitarian" aid, and provide him with more weapons and explosives? I'm willing to be a mediator in the upcoming Peace talks between Norway and The State of Breivik.

168 Also for all those who keep saying he was in "police uniform". The official report says he was not. He was in blue coveralls with some kind of patch, but it was not a police uniform.

It wasn't a real police uniform, but apparently it was close enough that he was able to convince the ferry operators that he was a policeman, at least according to one account that I read.

169 Hurrying to the sound of the guns is not a natural reaction.

Saw an infantry guy do that for a couple of bangs outside a building we were in. duck and move towards.

170 They are Calvinists -- in fact it's startling how white liberals in America tend to be in the areas originally settled by Calvinists (with California as the big exception). They've given up God but they still believe we are inherently corrupt and sinful. Instead of Christ as the redeemer, they've substituted . . . themselves.

Posted by: Trimegistus at July 26, 2011 04:01 PM (OkQJh)

Truly.  Plus, when you get an inherently corrupt and sinful human being positioning himself or herself as a "savior" you typically get exploitation, oppression and mass murder, not redemption. 

171 And I seem to recall one of the Founders (IIRC) saying something to the effect that that the presence of guns weapons tends to make everyone exceedingly polite to each other.

- Japan, pre-1868

172 #156
N.B. scroll down about half the page to get to the "The killer links to LGF and Daniel Pipes" section.

And in a related item: a defence of Robert Spencer.

Quite often, Robert Spencer is quoted providing historical background on Islam and quotes from the Koran and the Hadith. So, it’s actually Fjordman quoting Spencer quoting the Koran. If the media insists that Fjordman is an extremist and Spencer is an extremist — then isn’t the Koran also extremist?

173 Who killed the kids on Utoeya? It was .... the Jews!

http://tinyurl.com/44nx4mc

P.S. The helicopter wasn't available because it was "on standby," no. It wasn't available ... because the crew was on VACATION.

174 The difference is that the far right, that condones mass murder, if it even exists, is so far underground and most likely so rare as to be practically non existent while Jihadism is pretty much institutionalized.

175 Okay, I have two opinions about this. First, I think Brevik himself is a monster beneath contempt. If he isn't provably insane he deserves death, and if he is mad he should spend the rest of his life sedated and restrained.

My second opinion is that Europe's liberal elites created him. They encouraged Muslim immigration and simple-minded "multiculturalism" and they demonized any opposition to those wrong-headed plans as neo-fascist extremism. So either you support seeing European civilization swamped and destroyed, or you're a neo-fascist. That makes neo-fascism awfully attractive.

One final thought: since the response to Muslim atrocities is always calls for greater understanding of their culture and redress for whatever "root cause" drove them to it . . . does this mean Europe will now start to pay more attention to immigration control?

(To be utterly cynical: yes, I think it will. The big horrible secret of the 21st century is that if you murder enough people you get what you want.)

176 That's right, Trimegistus. The Labour Party created the BNP. 

177

177

islamic immigration + multikulturalism is the genisis of this.

Eventually some hot head will turn to violence

and here we are

178

@111: "This isn't an apt comparison. First, your example were youths who were nevertheless in organized units, were armed, and frequently launched offensive missions. Second, numerous accounts spoke of their ferocity. Third, many of those same accounts ntoed that the Allied troops were distrubed yf ighting them, though they understood that to be killed by one would leave them just as dead as being killed by a 35 year old."

That would be why my second sentence started out acknowledging that the circumstances were different.  As far as "organized units, were armed, and frequently launched offensive missions" goes, that was true for the 12th SS Hitlerjugend Division, but much less so for the regular HJ members.  They were basically about as organized and trained as a boy scout troop would be.  They were usually used as runners, ammo carriers, etc.   And while some Allied troops were not thrilled to be fighting against boys, others were pretty indifferent to the fact, and there were some fairly signifcant war crimes committed against them (and, in fairness to the Allies, by them, also.)

179

@129: "Oh, please.  Stop with the Internet Rambo routine, all of you.

We're talking about a bunch of kids who suddenly found themselves being attacked by a heavily armed 32 year old adult.  It's pretty fucking easy to come up with a McGuyveresque plan to take him down, or to advocate a coordinated suicide charge against him from the safety of the Internet.

I doubt a bunch of American teenagers in the same scenario would've fared much better."

Except there have been school shootings where kids of about that age did take down the shooter.

180 There's no way anyone can reasonably criticize the Norwegian kids. Most adults -- hell, most soldiers -- would have been terrified and disorganized in the same situation. We all like to think we'd be the exception, but it's simply untrue.

181 "Speaking as a victim of an attempted murder with a gun, I can tell you that when you're unarmed and someone is hunting you, your mind completely falls into chaos. No matter what you think you'd do in that situation, believe me that you'll utterly panic because you're completely powerless.

Also, there's something about murder that's different from everything else. I've been in car accidents and a few airplane near misses, but someone trying to murder you with a gun is so horrifying and awful that you literally can't process it rationally. You become an terrified animal."

I completely 100% believe it.

182 No one can even comprehend what they were going through. And no one really knows what they would do in that situation unless they were actually faced with such a horrible situation. They're teenagers - they're still kids. I think we should give that part a rest. Posted by: laceyunderalls at July 26, 2011 03:41 PM (pLTLS) No. Because learned helplessness is a comfort we can no longer afford. We have to stop teaching ourselves that someone else will do it, that panic is an acceptable reaction. Does that mean you should be ashamed? No, but assuming you survive, you need to work on emergency skills. Unthinking fear is counter-survival, and living in a heavily-socialized European country doesn't insulate you from that. These children should not be condemned, but the FACT of their deaths should remind us that security is an illusion, and that we need to train ourselves to deal with emergencies. Small packs of cavemen took down giant bears with wooden sticks, for Christ's sake.

183 Except there have been school shootings where kids of about that age did take down the shooter.

There have been a lot more in which they didn't and/or couldn't

184

@48 - Arhooley

Goober, don't you have that little formatting bar above your comment window?

 

IÂ’m much better with things that go boom when you click them then I am with things that make 1Â’s and 0Â’s.  Thanks for the heads up.  I will use it from now on.  I guess I just thought HTML would work as it does on most blogs.  Apparently not here.  Sorry.  

 

@78 – alexthechick

 

I can't imagine any camp of American teens, no matter how wussified, who could not have come up with some way to stop this in 19 minutes, let alone 90.  Sure, maybe there weren't guns at the camp but there had to be rocks.  Tree limbs.  Fire extinguishes.  A truck.  Something, anything, that could be used.  Hell, group rush him and take the guns from him.  Anything.

 

IÂ’m not advocating even some MacGyver-ish kludge put together by kids.  There were adults at that camp.  IÂ’ve never in my life seen a youth camp with no adults in it.  The only stories IÂ’ve heard from adults in this story were of hiding from the bad guy until the cops showed up, during which time scores of children – children IN THEIR CARE – were murdered.  On an island that is a youth camp, I admit that even in America there would be no guns on the island, but for ChristÂ’s sake, there WERE adults.  The guy had a rifle.  Not good for close-quarters stuff.  Use concealment to let him get in close and then grapple with him.  Find a knife.  Run his ass over with a truck.  Tell me there wasnÂ’t a single axe on the property.  Grab him by his belt buckle and take his rifle out of the equation.  Fight him.  Die trying.  Or else live the rest of your life knowing that you cowered in a staff bathroom while children IN YOUR CARE were slaughtered.  The choice is yours.  It is obvious to me what choice the adults on this island made.  He was just one man.  Even high capacity magazines have to be changed occasionally.  One guy with a gun doesnÂ’t stand a chance against even as few as 5 adults who bum rush him all at once.  

 

@96 – Llarry

 

I can tell you that when you're unarmed and someone is hunting you, your mind completely falls into chaos.

 

Speak for yourself.  IÂ’ve never functioned with more clarity and disregard for my own well-being than when my family was threatened.  I can guarantee what I would do in this situation:  Destroy the bastard or die trying.   If I were unarmed and it were a bunch of unrelated adults that were being shot at, I might hide because they are adults and should be able to take care of themselves.  With children under my care?  Either he dies, stops shooting, or I die.  No other option.

 

@129 – Hollowpoint

 

Oh, please.  Stop with the Internet Rambo routine, all of you.

We're talking about a bunch of kids who suddenly found themselves being attacked by a heavily armed 32 year old adult.  It's pretty fucking easy to come up with a McGuyveresque plan to take him down, or to advocate a coordinated suicide charge against him from the safety of the Internet.

I doubt a bunch of American teenagers in the same scenario would've fared much better.

 

Nor do I, but IÂ’m not talking about teenagers, am I? What about the adults on the island?  IÂ’m speaking from experience, and my experience is that, as an adult, I would die before I would let a man hurt children in my care.  IÂ’ve been there before.  This isnÂ’t internet Rambo-ism.  It is real as it gets.  I promise you that if 5 adults managed to get close quarters with this guy, it is game over for him.  There had to be at least 5 adults on the island, right?  And the only story I saw being told by an adult to date was of her and another adult hiding in a staff bathroom until the shooting stopped, allowing children in their care to be slaughtered to save their own necks.  I hope they can live with that. 

185 I see WRM is channelling Jacques Barzun today.

186 Sifty, did you get on TV or did president pee pee pants preempt you too?

I got bumped by the speech and two other stories. I about gay weddings and 1 about the Jackson Family Reunion Concert.

Fuckin joy.

187 I have been quite impressive with your posts, keep up the great work.

188 Anders Brevik is an exceptional case.  Unique.  And that's all the proof any sane person needs that there is no comparison between him and a Jihadi.  He was a loon, nothing more.  But we already knew Leftists weren't sane.

189

"But Brevik's manifesto was the document of one man..."

You don't have to read very far into it to find out that isn't true.

He's no warrior. Just another recreant sociopath.

190

If AB was on fire, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on him.