1 Its a nice start.

2 Spread the word of Cain!

3
general disarray

4 Newt Gingrich and John McCain should both be buried under a huge pile of whale shit at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

5 support it or go even farther w/ it and gtfo

6 Well thanks to Gingrich, we know what they shouldn't say

7

Posted by: YRM (Go Bolts!) at May 17, 2011 01:06 PM (UzBwz)

or gtfo*

8 Look at my hair!

9 I'll be further explaining my remarks this weekend on Ryan's plan, and Speaker Pelosi has graciously agreed to join me.  We'll be using her couch.

10 The right has Palin and Cindy Crawford

The left has Helen Thomas and Joy Behar.

Profit!!!!

11 texasjew what the hell do you have against whale shit?

12

Can someone post a 1 paragraph summary? I only have a half hour for lunch.

 

13 First, you say "the situation as it is cannot continue."  Then you say "while it isn't perfect, Ryan's is the only plan currently available.  If the Democrats ever get around to presenting a plan with actual numbers, I'll compare the merits of the two plans." 

14

Arnold Schwarzenegger is racist!

Just look at his name. Shwarz is Austrian for black...and we all know what the rest sounds like.

15 Does Arnold's kid speak Austrian?

16 what the hell do you have against whale shit?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 17, 2011 01:08 PM (eOXTH)

Yeah, bro! WTF?

17 Since its increasingly clear that Ryan is the only person who even comprehends his plan, he could, you know, run for President or something.  Might give him a nice stage to explain shit from.  Its pretty clear he's going to be a proxy for every Republican in 2012, might as well own it.

18 I think you attack something unpopular, like the NEA, and say that the Democrats are going to throw grandma out on the street so that pervert artists can continue to get paid.

"I want to save Medicare, but the Democrats want to give money to fatcat union bosses."

I think the notion that Medicare is broke is no longer one that people think is a lie.

19 Most of them talk about how it's a great plan without embracing the entitlement reform elements, esp. regarding Medicare. After seeing the reactions to Newt's comments, they'll likely continue to do that.

20 Senior voters are colossally stupid, but even they'll be able to figure out that the Ryan "plan" is only about cutting taxes for rich people.

I don't know, knuckleheads. The Kill All Grannies strategy could work. Go for it!

21
Usually the Republicans wait until they wrap up the nomination before they turn on their own.

But not Newt. That's why he's so special -- he's two steps ahead of everyone else.

22 "I want to save Medicare, but the Democrats want to give money to fatcat union bosses."

Stuff like this. If Obama gets away with his fucking moats and alligators, throw that shit right back in that asswipe's face.

23 Behold the powah of the Sperminator!11!1!1!

24 ace,  I think you are not understanding.  Maybe because you are not out here in the Heartland where people are watching the economy proceed with its slo-mo collapse,  or maybe you just don't understand how fed up people are.

I will be on medicare in 2 1/2 years.  Right now I have NO insurance,  thanks to the Obamacare 2014 mandate that everyone must be accepted.  Guess what; insurance companies make business decisions,  such as not taking anyone with high blood pressure because they know they are going to have to take everyone in 3 years.  So I assume Medicare under Obama is going to get the same treatment and so I want this stuff FIXED.

I do not want a bunch of tap dancing or punting with a twist or whatever you call it.

Part of the problem with politics in America today is this type of constant plotting and gaming the process,  in order to get in office without revealing what you plan to do.  I hate it.

I will not vote for a candidate in the primary who cannot speak straighforwardly,  and that pretty much reduces my choices right now to Herman Cain,  unless Palin,  Allen West, or Bolton declare.

So my reaction to your essay is STOP IT.  Stop with the suggestions on how to avoid taking a stand.  Stop with the gaming, the speculation about how to fool granny (that would be me) or anything else that isn't plain talk.  Just stop!

25
/note to self

Moonbats very nervous about Paul Ryan and his budget reform plan.

26 How about we debate on what is ACTUALLY IN THE RYAN PLAN.

You know, instead of buying into the bullshit DEMOCRAT SPIN that the plan is bad for seniors (assuming we define seniors as people actually AT OR NEAR retirement age.)

The Ryan plan does not alter benefits for anyone eligible for Medicare prior to January 1, 2021.

That is the big problem.  With Gingrinch, with you, and with anyone else playing this bullshit game - you are conceding a truth that IS NOT THE TRUTH.

27 I am a highly paid political consultant. Here is what I recommend.

"You must first pass the Ryan Plan to find out what's in it."

28

 As mark Levin so succintly told the Dickhead, we do have a national dialogue; it's called an election.

 

My apologies to whale shit.

29 One slight problem with your plan, there, Drew.  It requires a Republican nominee to have the guts to stick to principle AND the wisdom to avoid unforced errors.

I don't remember a Republican in my lifetime who has had both- though I admit I only barely remember Reagan...

30
You always know when the moonbats are nervous about the election.

They troll the blogs and offer our candidates advice on how to win.

31 Sperminator

hohohoho

32 Senior voters are colossally stupid, but even they'll be able to figure out that the Ryan "plan" is only about cutting taxes for rich people.

Leftards like ergie (who have never paid a dime in income taxes themselves, given their socioeconomic position) obssess over whether "rich people" (which they've read all about) will continue to subsidize their pathetic existences.

33 ACE, the problem with a defined plan is everyone can find something they don't like. Running for President means setting goals not defending a plan. One of the strategic assets we have is we don't have to defend a plan. Sparky has to defend his plan or plans. Get it? So how well does Sparky's plans poll? Do you really want to get into a beauty contest between defined plans? As I recall the only plan Sparky ran on was not to raise taxes and end the war. I don't recall him ever running on socialized medicine or high speed trains or taking out NASA. Just sayin.

34 The Ryan plan does not alter benefits for anyone eligible for Medicare prior to January 1, 2021.

eggamoobymuffin, illiterate and innumerate Marxist (but aren't they all), hardest-hit.

35 Instead of overturning Obamacare, how bout just issueing everyone waivers?

36

Giving endless entitlements to the middle class was the nail in the coffin for our economy and the young people in this nation.

37 Newt Gingrich and John McCain should both be buried under a huge pile of whale shit at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.
There goes the neighborhood!

38 The GOP has no reason to exist if it doesn't support reforming entitlements like Medicare.

Give America a chance, guys.  Give them a legitimate choice.  I'm not saying we must nominate a pure conservative.  Just make sure that conservative offers a real choice, instead of waffling.

Our nominee MUST carry a mandate to the oval office on this issue.  It is serious enough that we must actually ask the voters to make a decision.  We can play politics somewhat, but the bottom line is that we need to make this reform happen, and the people have to be on board.

It's simple: real solutions vs politicians who lie and play games with the budget.

What is Obama going to say to that?  Once he's called out like that, he's done.  You can take his hemming and hawing and put it up against the numbers.

Real solutions vs lies and games.  Ryan's plan is a great way for America to get back on track.  We WANT to return to the budgets and debt levels and prosperity of the past, and Obama wants to kick the can down the road.

The post is right, this is politically dangerous.  But think about what makes it dangerous: the lack of support.  If that's the case, we probably cannot cheat our way into entitlement reform either.  Congress simply will not go along without a clear message.

39 So my reaction to your essay is STOP IT.  Stop with the suggestions on how to avoid taking a stand.  Stop with the gaming, the speculation about how to fool granny (that would be me) or anything else that isn't plain talk.  Just stop!
Posted by: Miss Marple at May 17, 2011 01:14 PM

Nicely put, Miss Marple.  The truth would be refreshing.

40 Posted by: Cicero at May 17, 2011 01:17 PM (QKKT0)

I really love to ask the question "What makes one rich" of such people.  Take a look at the uber-rich, and you'll see they don't care what the level of income tax is because they don't, technically, receive an income.

On the other hand, those "evil rich" who make $250,000 as a married couple probably have 2 - 4 kids, a mortgage, a second mortgage (to finance the business they started that's bringing in that money), and a variety of other things that means the income they actually make isn't nearly as high as raw numbers would suggest.

41 >>For better or worse, the Ryan plan is the official plan of the only part of the GOP to actually have electoral success.<<

There's a big message there.  You know.  That part about "...to actually have electoral success.".

42

They troll the blogs and offer our candidates advice on how to win.

They only get nervous when the average Joe on the street begins to see through the bullshit.  At any other time they still hold him in contempt like they always do.

Liberals, loving humanity and hating people - since 1789!

43 "Fealty" not "fidelity".

44 The major four points in Ryan's Chicago speech yesterday are also items that major candidates can accept without having to commit to Budget's prescription for Medicare. Though I will say this-- anyone who criticizes the plan instead of being non-committal should be forced to offer their own solution.

45 I have been repeatedly chastised on the Monty doom threads because some of the Morons perceive me as being a "I want mine baby-boomer" old fart and opposed to SS reform.

I am not really, what I am opposed to is the same kind of 'fix" that has been done twice already and the caricaturization of SS as a bankrupt welfare system for the elderly that robs from the youth.

I also didn't like the Ryan plan when it first came out because I thought it was not enough now and too much kicking the can down the road. I see now why he did that. I expected opposition in the squishy Senate but the House squish leadership is killing it as well.

All tat being said, if Ryan came out and annouced today he would immediately jump to the top of my short list for candidates.

46

I want to see someone with the balls to produce the following commercial:

A little girl at a lemonade stand is counting her money.  She runs inside a nice house where Granny and her friends are sitting around talking.  "Grandma, look at the money I earned!" The girl says excitedly, holding up a few dollars.

"Oh dear, that's wonderful."  Granny replies with a big smile, and then she snatches all but one dollar away and puts it in her purse.  "Go on, go back outside." She tells the now dejected girl, shooing her away before turning back to the laughter of her friends.

Fade to black with the words "The entitlement system is stealing from our children's future."

 

47 Don Schwanzanshagger, may your first illegitimate child be a mexican  masculine child

48 We are likely to hold the house. We are very likely to win the senate. I think the nod and wink approach but with a frank discussion of the state entitlements are now in would be the best strategy. I am more inclined to believe cain or pawlenty on that than romney. A campaign that warns of the doom but that there are solutions that are less painful than that doom (which is absolutely true- ryans plan means there will be less spent on seniors. The doom scenario means nothing gets spent on them). Something that reflects the reality most of us- who have been forced to cut back, cut up our credit cards, and even sell off someof our stuff in order to endure and ensure a future for ourselves. Obama is playing blindly with money that doesn't even exist. Call him out on the charade. Details can be left for the gop govt of 2013 to hammer out.

49 the Ryan "plan" is only about cutting taxes for rich people.

I don't know, knuckleheads. The Kill All Grannies strategy could work. Go for it!

Posted by: Lucifer, John Ashcroft's personal savior

 

When we hid our luxury assets we did that for the noblest of reasons. Please say that we're different. After all, we talk about raising taxes on the rich (and we both are). Shouldn't that be enough to fool idiots likeyou them? Please say you'll always be our useful idiot.. Otherwise, we'll have to make a trip to the graveyard and build another.

50

Posted by: Lucifer, John Ashcroft's personal savior at May 17, 2011 01:13 PM (BHSVg)

Listen carefully, this is very critical for you. Recently you haven't slept well and you forgot something that was simple and mundane. At the time you said to yourself, "Shit, I must be losing it".

There is a small group of abnormal cells in your right frontal lobe. These will be found to be a primary brain tumor. I am feeling that it is probably Oligodindroglioma, possibly Grade 3. Get an MRI. Don't delay.

51 To paraphrase someone else, you don't go into an election with the entitlement reform plan you wish you have, you go in with the one you have. And right now, Paul Ryan is the only credible plan out there--including the President Gutsy Call and Congressional Democrats. Which makes Newt spitting on Ryan's plan all the more offensive. Apparently Newt still thinks it's 1995 and that the Republican rank-and-file, eventually still belong to him. This week's events should put an end to that mindset.

52 Posted by: Alex at May 17, 2011 01:22 PM (J2ejK)

You realize the result of that commercial would be to elect Democrats, right?

You know why...the kid doesn't vote, the old lady does. Calling one of the largest voting blocs a bunch of "kid hating thieves" is not exactly how you win elections.

53 OT: Beaver is big

54 Is it safe yet to say that we're all fucked?

55 Embrace the plan? Punt? Attack it?

I am mostly in agreement. That the requirement of absolute fidelity to the Ryan plan is not a prerequisite for nomination (or my primary vote) but, we need to realize that we are not in substantially better shape than we were in 2010, that while further damage has been stalled by Republican control of the House, our fiscal straits are still very dire, and, we need to place a clear hard choice to the American people. If hope truly exists to save this Republic, then then the people of the US need to be willing to make difficult choices when one side still wishes to sell a game of kick the can and tax the rich kids. So a little wiggle room for plausible deniable with substantially unpopular parts of the plan? yes. But not for one second, should they act as it is time to "discuss what we should do", what we *have* to do is obvious and clear, the only discussion that should be left is the details on how we do it.

Medicare costs *have* to be both reduced and contained for the long run.

SS costs *have* to be reduced and contained.

Government *has* to be reduced in size, scope, and intrusion.

Any candidate who proffers any walk-back of the Ryan plan while not simultaneously beating this drum relentlessly and loudly is not putting the clear choice to the American people and allowing them to make the hard decision.

Because if pols from both sides say lets play kick the can. The American people will believe they can get away with doing so again; and they will vote to do so.

So my short on this is "OK sure you can walk back a little bit on method, BUT, make sure the objective and goals aren't walked back an inch" and if the American people accept the tough choice we have a real chance at recovery, and if they reject it, than at least we can get the crash over with earlier.

56 Is it safe yet to say that we're all fucked?

Lets at least see who we nominate.

57 Posted by: Cherry π at May 17, 2011 01:26 PM (+sBB4)

Hopefully not too big or it isn't much fun.

58

At the time you said to yourself, "Shit, I must be losing it".

Well, given the general quality of the arguments presented here I think he knows a correction of your verb tense is in order.

       "At the time you said to yourself, "Shit, I must be losing lost it".

There, FIFY

59 I love it when the idiot posters on this Moron blog out themselves as non-idiots.  Even Dave in Texas fucks up and does it every once in a while.

Now, how to handle Ryan's plan.  Simple:  Ryan's plan is for big government liberal pussies.

60 "You realize the result of that commercial would be to elect Democrats, right?

You know why...the kid doesn't vote, the old lady does. Calling one of the largest voting blocs a bunch of "kid hating thieves" is not exactly how you win elections.

Posted by: DrewM. at May 17, 2011 01:25 PM (sPao2)"

Even Ryan panders to the old folks a bit with his 'we won't touch your entitlements over our mistakes, just 55 and unders'.

Can't we have a mandate on entitlement reform along with information that we don't propose screwing with current old ladies?

I think the candidate who wins by avoiding this huge issue will be unable to reform entitlements anyway.  He'll need congress to back him up, after all.

We need a debate on this, up front.  Yeah, it's dangerous because we might lose the debate, but otherwise, America doesn't get a choice between DOOM and doing the right thing.

61

Posted by: zombie Luca Brassi at May 17, 2011 01:23 PM (le5qc)

I gotta say Ahnold's statement about it was extremely classy, he's man up more then Edwards; not making excuses for him just saying...

62 "So my reaction to your essay is STOP IT.  Stop with the suggestions on how to avoid taking a stand.  Stop with the gaming, the speculation about how to fool granny (that would be me) or anything else that isn't plain talk.  Just stop!
Posted by: Miss Marple at May 17, 2011 01:14 PM"

Miss Marple for President 2012!!

63

If we can't nominate someone who will endorse this plan then I prefer a gridlocked Obama. I will not vote for a Republican who squishes around while this country is destroyed economically.

Think about what's happened  to spending every time one party owned the presidency + Congress.

Yeah, Supreme Court appointments, blah blah. Not a persuasive argument to me... (cough) _{^{David Souter}} (cough)

64
The right answer is Hey maybe the Ryan plan isn't the best option, but it is a plan and something has to be done.

But I can do math, so...

65

Well, I'm a babyboomer and I think that anybody in my generation who is getting a SS check and/or Medicare subsidy should get just half a vote unless they are actively employed.

Few have paid more than a tiny fraction of the benefits that they are/will be getting. Believe me, I've been employed since I was 17, and have paid a lot into SS, far more than the average, and I still will be milking out a lot more than I put in if or when I retire.

They are living off the earnings of the actively employed population. Most of whom are trying to raise families under increasingly difficult conditions.

That would solve this shit right away.

66 If the question is to have you attack a Republican plan, tell the interviewer to fuck off.  Obama has absurd deficits, his policies are destroying business and health care and caused a depression, and his waffling overseas is pathetic. Lets talk about that, not what's wrong with point 5 of some unimplemented plan.

67 So my reaction to your essay is STOP IT.  Stop with the suggestions on how to avoid taking a stand.  Stop with the gaming, the speculation about how to fool granny (that would be me) or anything else that isn't plain talk.  Just stop!

Posted by: Miss Marple at May 17, 2011 01:14 PM (Fo83G)

I concur wholeheartedly with this post.  Well said, ma'am.

You know why...the kid doesn't vote, the old lady does. Calling one of the largest voting blocs a bunch of "kid hating thieves" is not exactly how you win elections.

Posted by: DrewM. at May 17, 2011 01:25 PM (sPao2)

But it is the truth, sir, and if we do not face it, we are done for as a country.

68 You may say that this is bait and switch and look at the trouble it got Obama in 2 years later. [...] What got Obama and the Democrats in trouble in 09-10 was they lied about what the actual legislation would do (“It will bend the cost curve down”, “If you like your plan you can keep it”, “We aren’t cutting Medicare”, “We’re reducing the deficit” etc, not to mention the midnight votes and the rest of the process)" Gotta disagree with that. Sure the Obama Democrats took a beating at the polls last year. But so what? They don't care. They got rid of the Blue Dogs which they despised anyway, while laying the foundation for their monstrous, ruinous and disastrous government takeover of healthcare plan. And President Obama may very well see a second term for all the trouble.

69 Posted by: Oldcat at May 17, 2011 01:31 PM (z1N6a)

But we enjoy eviscerating our own; they don't fight back as much as the Dems, and they don't say mean things to us in the media. It's easier.

70

66 If the question is to have you attack a Republican plan, tell the interviewer to fuck off.  Obama has absurd deficits, his policies are destroying business and health care and caused a depression, and his waffling overseas is pathetic. Lets talk about that, not what's wrong with point 5 of some unimplemented plan.

 

BINGO - Let teh WON defend plans. Let us set goals and kick the little shit unmercilessly until he bleeds from his ginormus jug ears.

71

My feeble attempt at a serious answer:

I don't believe that anyone would object to a constructive critique of Ryan's plan, especially if alternatives were presented.  Newtered screwed up not only by demagoguing the plan, but by adding the shit that a lot of people are sick of from the ruling class and that is the political equivocation.  IMO, people are looking for straight answers now, not more political hackery, disembling and obfuscation for which Newtered has risen to poster boy.

72
Yeah, Supreme Court appointments, blah blah. Not a persuasive argument to me... (cough) _{^{David Souter}} (cough)

He's worse than Sotomayor?

And how grid locked do you think this presidency actually is? it spends money it doesn't have, appoints extra-legal czars, refuses to defend or enforce laws on the books, acts to strike down state laws they find odious, and unilaterally involves us in foreign wars kinetic military actions.

73 So all of those Monty "Doom" posts are just fairy tales?  Do we have an impending debt crisis, or not?

Punting isn't an option.  As far as handing Obama and his confederates a club, well, making accusations out of whole cloth is what they do in every election.

74 I don't like everything about Ryan's plan, but punting it is a bad idea. It's gotten enough play that people who don't pay attention (and swing elections)think they know what it is and like the general concept. It get's broader support from folks on the right, who will get a candidate through the primary. I'd say a good candidate should use Ryan's plan as a springboard through the primaries and basis from which to sell their own plan in the general. That said, this strategy means that we don't deal with any of our economic problems until 2013 (which is likely the case, no matter what, give the worthless scum we have in the WH, Senate, and House currently). All the more reason that I despise our current field of candidates, since non of them appears capable of providing the hard core leadership needed to truly do what must be done by 2013. We maxed out the credit card yesterday and Turbo Tax Timmeh is raiding pensions to keep the lights on. We've already had our rating lowered. Whomever we elect will need to tell the American public that the gravy train is over and get everyone on board with vast, painful cuts to stuff that is considered untouchable. None of the current crop is up to this challenge and I am not supporting anyone who feeds me any morer bullshit about the state of things. If we're going down, I say let the current socialist drive us off the cliff, since barring a good candidate, that's where we'r going no matter what. Let it be an object lesson to the imbeciles who support Democrats.

75

After seeing Paul Ryan royally tick off The Won at his little confab at the WH over healthcare last year, well, Ryan was the only brain in the room. Anyone who can get the evil-death-ray vibe from Barky's dilated pupils is ok with me. It shows Ryan is a threat, for more than the Dims (see Newt's reaction). Ryan owns this stuff. He should flog it all the way to the WH.

http://tinyurl.com/ybw4b5d
If link does not work, just search youtube for Paul Ryan health care summit.

As far as I can recall, Rush Limbaugh approves Ryan's message. I still hope Ryan runs for prez.

 

76

Embrace the plan? Punt? Attack it?

A: Question everything.

 

"Do we think that we can continue as we have? Do we seriously think that simply raising taxes will magically solve all of our ills? Remember that the ones saying this are the same ones who say that Obmacare cuts costs, while handing out waivers. And blocking tort reform. And preventing insurance companies from selling across state lines. They lied when they said that you could keep your doctor. We knew that really when they accused that doctor of sawing off legs and ripping out tonsils for money. The status quo will not work. Will we settle once more for some magic remedy from a group that fails to even draw up a budget for 2011 and then ignores their own deficit commission? No. The debt clock was a real concern in 2006. It is even more so now in 2012. Ask any resident of Portugal. Ireland, Spain or Greece. Ask residents of the Gulf coast, whose livelihoods were taken from them by force.
for them, and to avoid the agony that Europe is experiencing now.....

We need to question everything.

 And the Republican party have solutions that it is willing to present for the approval of the American people. We will not take salaries and fail to produce a budget. We will not take pay increase when American wages are stagnating. We will not add to Federal lands while American homeowners are underwater. We will not hide and lie and scheme and pass bills in the dark of night.

 

America has a choice.

77 Posted by: Lucifer, John Ashcroft's personal savior at May 17, 2011 01:13 PM (BHSVg)

Some people may wonder why erg gets jumped on with such vigor by the regulars in the comments. John Ashcroft resigned as Attorney General in 2005, for chrissakes; six years ago. And he's still a scare totem for ergie. Typical stale, ossified lefty rodomontade that just wastes precious energy resources by appearing on the computer monitor. If erg does turn out to have a brain tumor, I wouldn't advise removing it; it could be the only thing holding his ears apart.

78

Yeah, Supreme Court appointments, blah blah. Not a persuasive argument to me... (cough) _{^{David Souter}} (cough)

if Dubya had not won in 04 the Chief Justice would be a lib, the balance of the court would be left and they would be set to keep Obamacare running, that's how important the Presidency can be w/ Supreme Court nominations

79

Posted by: ChristyBlinky at May 17, 2011 01:36 PM (FnRYN)

Ryan would fire me up about the primary for the 1st time

80 the solution is to tell the truth and call Odumbass a liar.

81
But not Newt. That's why he's so special -- he's two steps ahead of everyone else.

Nah, he's filling in the niche that John McCain usually fills: say nice things about the Democrats, and kick your own party in the nuts.

And call yourself a maverick. I don't know if Newtie has done that last thing yet.

82 Even Ryan panders to the old folks a bit with his 'we won't touch your entitlements over our mistakes, just 55 and unders'.

I don't call that pandering to the "old". A lot of people have their retirement plan calculated based on the current law. To change it after they have already set it up would be disaster for some.

For example when I retired my "cash balance" retirement account included a payout option called the SS option. It pays an increased monthly allotment which then decreases at age 65 to what your SS payment will be. So in effect your retirement check remains constant (note that amortization schedule is based on death at age 83).

Also, my company subsidized health insurance switches to medicare at 65.  To change that "after the fact" is not only not fair, it is shitty.

By going back a few years it allows the others to plan for it in advance.

83

The young people of this nation are being groomed as a slave class.

But they'll haul ass rather than pay the huge interest with high taxes on this debt down the road.

It happened to Europe in the late 1960s-early 1980's, when Thatcherism took hold and they actually turned their economies around.

84 You are not punting if you are attacking the other team. You can't attack the other team if you are defending a hypothetical plan. Lets keep are metaphors clean here. Ryan has a plan. Ryan has to defend it. This early in the cycle the midgets always try to gain name recognition proposing something that makes them big. So okay, Ryan has a plan and is getting name recognition. Does this move make him inevitable? Doubt it. It makes him defensive at all times when dealing with the press. Not a winning tactic. As Rommel said - Attack - Attack - Attack. Make your enemy respond. Cause confusion in his ranks not in your own. Our ranks are solidly behind anyone who will attack. Ryan's answer to our frustration is a power point presntation. This election will be a slugfest - time to butch up.

85

The rino's are beyond infinitely stupid to have let Ryan's plan sneak out of the covers before 2013.  Did they not have enough issues to run on?  How about $1T in new debt, $4+ gasoline, 20%+ true unemployment, rising inflation, US apology tours, racializing America and a 3rd war that is far more senseless than the last two.  I guess that wasn't a rich enough target environment for them...so they opened up the 3rd rail ; you know, the rail that 3rd graders can demagogue in their sleep.  I just can't get over the profound profound stupidity of it.  In a way, I don't blame Newt for trying to distance himself from it but his bull-in-a-chinashop approach demonstrates a tin ear nearly as stupid as the rino's who let pandora out of the box before Republicans owned all 3 branches with 60% majorities...which is the way it was looking 6 months ago.

But now we're stuck with it.

They should just say that it's a subject that has to be dealt with.  The dimwit option of doing nothing is the most dangerous and radical approach and will lead to inevitable catastrophe.  The two elements of Ryan's plan that have to be maintained are that there be no changes for current and soon-to-be seniors, and the costs of medicare for those who follow them have to be capped.  Unlimited benefits for a limited cost is insanity of the highest order and it has to be changed for the country's survival.  Ryan's plan is a useful stake in the ground.

86 Posted by: Olliander at May 17, 2011 01:32 PM (6uiF7)

Whether or not the trouble was worth it is a serious question.

What would be worth it to the GOP to have that kind of control and yet trade it off for a piece of legislation or two?

I'd toss it away for the Ryan plan and eliminating a department or two.

87 Few have paid more than a tiny fraction of the benefits that they are/will be getting. Believe me, I've been employed since I was 17, and have paid a lot into SS, far more than the average, and I still will be milking out a lot more than I put in if or when I retire.

I did that same calculation a few weeks ago for the Monty DOOM thread and found that I would have to live to be 135 years old to get back everything I and my employers put in.

88 You are not punting if you are attacking the other team. You can't attack the other team if you are defending a hypothetical plan.

Yeah, right.  Look at Newt .... he made that play and got nailed for a safety.

89

The young people of this nation are being groomed as a slave class.

But they'll haul ass rather than pay the huge interest with high taxes on this debt down the road.

It happened to Europe in the late 1960s-early 1980's, when Thatcherism took hold and they actually turned their economies around.

Posted by: TexasJew at May 17, 2011 01:41 PM (L8Let)

Slave classes have to work, not play video games.

90

I personally don't thiunk Ryan went far enough.

Entitlements are going to have to get axed, retirement ages raised, and the Medicare drug benenfit that W idiotically pushed will have to be seriously means tested.

91

America has a choice.

Posted by: Blue Hen at May 17, 2011 01:37 PM (Gzv/o)

Blue Hen for President!

Why did the chicken run for President?

92

Slave classes have to work, not play video games.

Posted by: Oldcat at May 17, 2011 01:45 PM (z1N6a)

They do work. Far more, I can tell you, than the Boomers did at their age.

93

The truth would be refreshing.

Truth, like honesty, is hardly ever heard (sorry, Mr. B. Joel).

I keep hoping in my heart of hearts that things won't get as bad as I think they'll have to get in order for the country to wake up. I fear a sudden collapse, when (not if) it happens, will be what it takes.

Closed gas stations, a closed sign on the front door of the workplace you left yesterday afternoon, empty grocery shelves, all that and worse is coming if we don't start demanding truth, honesty, and direct accountability from those we send to Washington to act on our behalf.

The shit we find ourselves in today is of our own making, so to speak. The idiot 52%'ers are the ones who got us into this mess by voting with their eyes and mind's closed to reality. If this trend continues, we aren't long for this world as a nation of free people. We'll be consigned to the ash heap of history.

We'll all be saying, "We had a great run for a few hundred years."

And, "I miss the good old days."

/rant

94 If the R candidates want to focus on Obama and not the House budget plan, then they should be calling-out Obama's scheme to ration by way of IPAB. It doesn't take long to explain and seniors need to understand what Obama has planned for them.

95

How about we debate on what is ACTUALLY IN THE RYAN PLAN.

And keep comparing those ideas to the Democrat's plan, which is:

crickets.

96 Either lots of socks on board today or lots of trolls working for Obummer.

97

88 You are not punting if you are attacking the other team. You can't attack the other team if you are defending a hypothetical plan.

Yeah, right.  Look at Newt .... he made that play and got nailed for a safety.

No - NEWT attacked Ryan's plan. Newt did not attack the enemy. That's why you are pissed. Attack Obama, Pelosi and Reid. Attack their plans or lack thereof. Attack their results. Most importantly attack their structural strengths (i.e., progressive taxation, gerrimandered congressional districts, rediculous science). If you are going to war, destroy the enemy's ability to wage war. Personalize it and destroy it.

98

"Yeah, Supreme Court appointments, blah blah. Not a persuasive argument to me... (cough) _{^{David Souter}} (cough)"

Kennedy will not retire until Obama is out of office.  He refuses to let his seat go filled by a radical liberal and make the SCOTUS become an activist court.

99 John Ashcroft resigned as Attorney General in 2005, for chrissakes; six years ago. And he's still a scare totem for ergie.

They hate.  Hate hate hate.  Throw out names and they will react with spittle-flecked vitriol.

Limbaugh, Rove, Palin, etc.

Name your favorite Republican and watch them froth at the mouth.

They always resort to ad hominem hatred.

100 If this got covered already, my apologies, but...

Why is everyone trying to avoid marketing shared sacrifice?

Seriously.  Loads of us are already having to, out of necessity.  Why not try to convince folks to join the club under a realistic plan, giving up some of what you would have now in order to preserve something for tomorrow?

Why is everyone so afraid of that idea?

101 95 And keep comparing those ideas to the Democrat's plan, which is:

crickets.

This is the Democratic plan for Medicare. 15 selected bureaucrats will be given power to ration care, first just for Medicare, then for ObamaCare.

102

They are living off the earnings of the actively employed population. Most of whom are trying to raise families under increasingly difficult conditions.

I don't mean to dismiss your argument, TJ, but imagine for a moment that the money you started paying in at age 17 (along with me) accrued interest the same way that you pay interest on your mortgage.

I think SS would be solvent as hell, with plenty of money to meet the needs of its "customers." The fact that it wasn't, and was raided to solve the problem of overspending by progressive idiots in Washington, is the real problem.

Math is hard enough for us Morons. For progressives, they can't understand it at all, so they just look at it like a postmodern painting, without even trying to understand it or comprehend it. It's just pretty.

It's too far above their limited intellectual capacity to even consider.

103 The young people of this nation are being groomed as a slave class.

I couldn't help but think of that while our JEF was at that high school commencement speech yesterday.  All the graduates screaming and cheering wildly for this prick.....totally unaware of what he has done to them.  So completely unaware.

104 This has been my contention since shortly after Ryan revealed his plan.

First of - it was dumb to do so when it had no chance of even being considered.  It was really bad politics.  We will have to await winning the Presidency and the Senate to make any bold moves.

Instead of proposing a complete revamp of Medicare, what should have been done was talk about needing bold changes while being vague about the details.  All it did was piss off a large portion of voters.

However, I will disagree with your last paragraph, Drew.  Candidates should feel free to disagree with the plan.  The Dems are going to hang Ryan's Medicare plan like a stone around the necks of anyone running for office.    We had Obamacare to hang on the Dems.  We have lost the advantage because of Ryan's plan.

If it was a good plan, I would not be saying that.  But it is not a very good plan.  I would go so far as to say it is unworkable.  It does not reduce by one cent how much health care costs in this country.  It simply moves Medicare recipients from the government as an insurer to a private insurer.  Insurance may become cheaper, but care will continue to rise.  And the elderly will get less care for the same dollars.

In the process, insurance companies will skim hundreds of billions of dollars off the top.  This makes sense how?

It might well reduce the long-term budget deficit.. but at a cost of Republicans never winning another election for 10-20 years. That is how bad the backlash will be if this ever gets implemented, IMHO.

Medicare needs to be scaled back to a safety net.  Basic healthcare and hospitalization for the elderly.  Basic prescription coverage for generics and possibly negotiated drugs.  Bump up the premiums if needed.  Defintely cut services and benefits. 

105 No - NEWT attacked Ryan's plan. Newt did not attack the enemy. That's why you are pissed. Attack Obama, Pelosi and Reid. Attack their plans or lack thereof. Attack their results.

And Obama, Pelosi, and Reid will simply reply to a GOP nominee who is "all attack - no plan" with "we have a plan, where's yours?"  and the issue is nullified.  One thing about the electorate, they mistrust the "all hat - no cattle" guy.

Gingrich's sin was to ferociously attack the Ryan Plan (which was endorsed for the most part by the GOP House majority) without offering a comprehensive debt-reduction  plan of his own.

106 Posted by: DrewM. at May 17, 2011 01:42 PM (sPao2) "I'd toss it away for the Ryan plan and eliminating a department or two" Fair point. Agreed.

107 What needs to happen is to make insurance and medical care affordable like it was back in the 50s and early 60s before the damn government got involved with it.

One get the lawyers out of the medical field.

Make insurance sellable across State lines and allow any policy designs to be sold (reasonable).

Eliminate laws that reduce the availability of medical care and require excessive education.

Do all of that and healthcare costs would decrease by 75%.

But none of it is going to happen.

108

I'm late to this post, but let me tell you that this is EXACTLY the same shit that was thrown at Jack Kemp's across-the-board tax cut proppsal in 1979.  It took a pretty Herculean effort for Kemp and his followers like Jude Wanniski and Arthur Laffer to convince Ronald Reagan to endorse the tax cut plan.  And even after Reagan did endorse it, George H.W. Bush made headlines, and headway, calling it "voodoo economics."  It was not a plan that was universally accepted by Republican leaders or the rank and file.  It was even ridiculed in many circles of leading economic and political thinkers.  But Reagan embraced it anyway, and ran on it, and won a mandate for it.

I get so damn angry reading the "advice" of people who I know are very smart, saying that Paul Ryan's budget plan is political poison. 

IT IS NOT.

It is, in fact, A PLAN to save America from a ruinous avalanche of debt and government interference in our economy. 

And right now, nobody else has A Plan.  Obama doesn't have A Plan.  Newt doesn't have A Plan.

Any Plan beats No Plan.

109 One thing about the electorate, they mistrust the "all hat - no cattle" guy.
Posted by: mrp at May 17, 2011 02:07 PM (HjPtV)

And that's why McCain with his detailed employer-tax rebate plan beat Obama's happy talk. Wait, no. That's not right.

How many people do you think would read a detailed, 100 page policy proposal? The number in miniscule. Most people won't even bother reading a single webpage worth of bullet points, so who exactly is going to be impressed? You're just giving the other guys ammo.

BTW- we'll all love to pimp the Ryan plan here, right? How many people have read the whole bill? I'd venture to say most of us (and I include myself here) know just the broadest of outlines. That's enough for now and for a presidential campaign.

110 Posted by: rockmom at May 17, 2011 02:19 PM (Y01Pi)

I thought of the Reagan/Wannisk/Laffer (I think Kemp was a follower of theirs) but the difference is Regan bought it and adopted it (Much like Palin seems to have with Ryan).

But what if a candidate wants to reform entitlements just not in the way Ryan does? Why should they support a plan they don't agree with?

111 It's all about the pork...

112

105 No - NEWT attacked Ryan's plan. Newt did not attack the enemy. That's why you are pissed. Attack Obama, Pelosi and Reid. Attack their plans or lack thereof. Attack their results.

And Obama, Pelosi, and Reid will simply reply to a GOP nominee who is "all attack - no plan" with "we have a plan, where's yours?"  and the issue is nullified.  One thing about the electorate, they mistrust the "all hat - no cattle" guy.

Gingrich's sin was to ferociously attack the Ryan Plan (which was endorsed for the most part by the GOP House majority) without offering a comprehensive debt-reduction  plan of his own.

Do not agree. First, the pubbies aren't beholden to Newt as in the old days. Newt didn't get them elected - a moron plan named OBAMACARE did. So, yes America is ready to right the boat, but no, they don't want a wonkish debate about spending curves. They want action. Set goals - don't debate footnotes - you will lose your audience.

113 Which is why Gingrich's "forget this radical plan crap and let's have a conversation" nonsense is a major fail. I remember Hillary '08 was big on "having conversations". How'd that turn out?

114 Is Paul Ryan running?  Because I think his plan is shit.

He's not running?  Well he does have a great plan.

(Did I mention what a whore I am?)

115

No shit, it is way too late to just "have a conversation."  The freaking wolf is at the door and we need a gun to shoot it, not a conversation about what type of approach might be most effective in keeping it away from the door.

DrewM - anyone who doesn't like Ryan's plan has a responsibility to come up with his own plan.  NOW.  Not next summer, not after he gets elected.  NOW.  The entire Republican majority in the House put their asses on the line to vote for that budget, and it is unconscionable for anyone seeking the Republican nomination for President to simply take pot-shots at it without releasing his own plan for comparison.

I happen to like Ryan's plan, but I'm willing to look at others.  But I won't vote for any candidate for President next year that has no plan.

116 The entire Republican majority in the House put their asses on the line to vote for that budget, and it is unconscionable for anyone seeking the Republican nomination for President to simply take pot-shots at it without releasing his own plan for comparison.
Posted by: rockmom at May 17, 2011 02:56 PM (Y01Pi)

Clearly I agree they shouldn't take potshots at it but because the House GOP ran off in this direction doesn't obligate candidates for President to follow them.

I think detailed plans are overrated. Hell, Ryan had his plan in draft form before the election but there were no final unveiling, no  promise it would get a vote, let alone pass before hand.

If you go too far out on a limb before an election, you might find yourself crashing to the ground.

117 It's too late for cutesy crap, sorry.

The same old vague political double-talk just won't make it anymore.  That's exactly the sort of positioning that allowed Republicans to stop talking the talk and walking the walk, and start talking around the talk and walking around the problems when we had the majority before.  That was then, and this is now.

Back then it was only a foreseeable crisis, far enough off to be safely ignored.  Now it isn't "impending," it is here at the door.  There is no time for talking around it.  The can has grown way too big to kick any further down the road.

If the electorate won't recognize there are no more easy answers, the country frankly deserves what it gets.  If Republicans won't talk straight like adults, I don't have time to waste on elections.  There are preparations to make for the collapse.  Good luck to all.

118

What GOP contenders can not and must not do is attack the plan.

They ought to attack Jay Cutler instead. It's a lot easier.

119 Clearly I agree they shouldn't take potshots at it but because the House GOP ran off in this direction doesn't obligate candidates for President to follow them.

Ran off ?  RAN OFF!?

Are you a conservative?  Does this blog stand for anything if the co-bloggers scurry for the hills after they (including Ace) spent the  entire 2010 election season demanding that the GOP candidates draw lines upon lines on the sand to cut spending and eliminate ObamaCare?

How many posts are in the archives extolling the Ryan Plan?

120 Here's a suggestion for the 2012 GOP hopefuls:

Shut the fuck up with criticism about Ryan's plan until you have something better of your own than "let's have a national conversation."

And now we are having a national conversation about what a self-serving prick Newt is. Likely not what he had in mind, though.

"I know, it sounds like an exercise in cowardice."

Nice, succinct way of summing up the GOP presidential nomination process.

121
Can someone post a 1 paragraph summary? I only have a half hour for lunch.
Posted by: Its Morning in the Pension Fund of America



 

"Kid, this ain't your night. We're going for the price on Wilson."

122 And that's why McCain with his detailed employer-tax rebate plan beat Obama's happy talk. Wait, no. That's not right

That's right, Drew.  Neither McCain nor Obama had a plan to do anything about public deficits.  And when the economy took a nosedive in September, 2008, the party in power took the hit.  Bush was a two-term lameduck, which left No-Plan John McCain holding the bag.

When neither side has a plausible solution for handling an immediate crisis, "happy talk" trumps "responsible party".

123 Posted by: mrp at May 17, 2011 03:54 PM (HjPtV)

Are you an idiot?

I support the Ryan plan. I'm glad the House passed it.

That however does not mean candidates who had no input on its content have to follow. I'd hope someone running for President would have their own plan. If they want to adopt this one, fine but it's not required.

124 Are you an idiot?

At the moment, not a single serious GOP contender has offered a deficit-reduction plan comparable to Ryan's.  You didn't even wait for an alternative plan to appear before you began advocating your peculiar "punt and twist" argument.   The House "ran off" in support of a comprehensive, and, yes, politically risky budget - but it is electorally more palatable than your  "Punt, Cut, and Run" approach.

And that "I support the Ryan Plan, but maybe you shouldn't"  meme  ... c'mon.

125 And that "I support the Ryan Plan, but maybe you shouldn't"  meme  ... c'mon.
Posted by: mrp at May 17, 2011 06:32 PM (HjPtV)

You know what the differnce between me and a candidate for the nomination is? I'm a guy on a blog talking to people agree more or less 95% of the time. When you're actually running for office you have to get votes from people who have very different interests.

So yeah, what works for a blogger or even a congressman in a relatively small district won't necessarily work for a national campaign. Political strategy isn't a one size fits all thing.

Why should candidates who may not agree with Ryan's approach be expected to embrace and defend it?

126 So yeah, what works for a blogger or even a congressman in a relatively small district won't necessarily work for a national campaign. Political strategy isn't a one size fits all thing.

All right, Drew - now we're in a clear field

Your point above is well-taken in theory.  But the salient fact is that the House did pass the Ryan FY '12 Budget Resolution (as you have stated concisely, above).  Direct attacks against the main points espoused by Ryan are fairly perceived as a direct criticism of the Republican House majority\s official position on the national budget. 

Every 2012 federal-level candidate will have to address his/her position in regards to '12 budget resolution, because the Dems will make them do so.
Running, punting, and twisting without a plausible alternative deficit-reduction plan in place won't work in this presidential election.

127 Every 2012 federal-level candidate will have to address his/her position in regards to '12 budget resolution, because the Dems will make them do so.
Posted by: mrp at May 17, 2011 07:09 PM (HjPtV)

I know, that's kind of the point of the post.

I think they can either-

A-Embrace it

Or

B-Praise it's intent while suggesting they have a different path to the same goal.

What they can't do is attack it like Newt did.

What's wrong with either option a or b?

128 A candidate will have to work with the voters in both the primary debates and the general.  A GOP contender  selecting (A) will have one set of arguments during the course of the primary season, assuming that primary voters are more  informed on intra-party issues, and another, more generalized approach for the general election season.   In the general, the presidential nominee will set the economic plan as part of the national platform.  Not a whole lot of wiggle-room for the folks farther down the ballot.

(B) Doesn't work.  Primaries are intensely competitive.  If  Romney is at the table with a half-dozen opponents, the "I generally support Ryan, but I'm considering some different paths" argument would be torn to pieces on national television.  Either he comes up with a deficit-reduction plan  before the first debate , or he'll have to come up with one while seated in the primary crucible.  And that would be painful to watch if one is a Romney fan.  I'm not a Romney fan.

Your earlier point about who reads a 100-page d-r plan is a good one.  The eventual nominee, in order to be successful, will have to be a superb narrator, someone who can distribute policy points in a romantic form easily absorbed by a distracted public.  Palin can do this;  Romney, to date, doesn't do narrative. 

129 The Ryan plan is only a start.  Anyone that gets my vote must say that.

130 So, basically, the campaign strategy is: Lie. Got it.