1 Just gave my kid(home educated) a big list of long sentences to diagram. Bwahahaha.

2 Imagine what potty training was like with her daughters.

"SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT RIGHT THE FUCK NOW!!!!"

3

If Brooks says

Chua would do better to see the classroom as a cognitive break from the truly arduous tests of childhood. ...

These and a million other skills are imparted by the informal maturity process and are not developed if formal learning monopolizes a childÂ’s time.

then how would homeschooling keep children from learning social skills?

Most of those skills take place out of the classroom, so homeschooling doesn't keep kids from learning social skills.

And yes, I know everyone knows one homeschooler who doesn't have her kids in social activities enough.

4 The only thing I'd have to add to this would be for Western parents, especially the younger ones from recent years to molly-coddle their kids into thinking they are exceptional when they are not.  When I was growing up, there were ribbons down to third place, but no further.  Now, it seems like every kid gets a gold medal for simply showing up to school and scribbling together what looks like an art project with crayon.  There are truly remarkable children with talents, and then there are future AoSHQ Moron commenters.  Growing up with a false sense of achievement is wrong and will do more harm than parents realize.

5 but it is nowhere near as cognitively demanding as a sleepover with 14-year-old girls. Hello!

6 But the bigger problem I have with David Brooks' answer is that he is clearly addressing one tiny segment of the population -- the well-off, well-connected urban rich. It is true that for this class (and this class only) social skills are of paramount importance; the real skill of this class (as it was with the artistocrats of Europe, whom they emulate) are networking and glib affability and ready affirmation of class mores, beliefs, and tastes. This is the higher managerial class, or, as it is frequently derided, the Ruling Class.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the difference between Left and everyone else, in three sentences.  Well put!

7 With double post you get egg roll.

And your dong tea is ready, Mr Brooks.

8

BTW, Chua has said that the WSJ cherry-picked the harshest bits from her book.

...after a few days of her book selling like crazy because of the article...

9 The "home schooled kids aren't well socialized" line is the biggest pile of bullshit. Home-schooled kids by and large are more adept at seeing through the crap of teenage "social dynamics," and just refuse to be sucked into it. That's what explains why, when they're plopped into those situations, they don't behave like the other kids. They're not ill-adjusted... just the opposite.

10 Well, I disagree with the premise that not everyone is special. Everyone IS special, but that doesn't mean anything more than they are unique. Special kids can still be fuck-ups and losers and lay-abouts and bums.

Not pushing kids will create adults who can't push themselves.

11 But if we expected more of our protected minorities, they might succeed and not need us anymore. Oh, wrong topic? Are you sure?...

12 @#2, Sadly there is some truth to this *cry*

13 There are truly remarkable children with talents, and then there are future wannabe AoSHQ Moron commenters.

FIFY.

14 I have a Chinese mother. That story actually does remind me of my childhood...

15 As a former, and soon to be again, homeschool mom, I wish anti-homeschool types would look back at their mantra of "CHOICE" and realize that education should be a choice for each family. Why is it they want all the choices in the world about killing a child, but don't want choices for how it's raised or educated? Is that as ass-backward to everyone else as it is to me? Public school works for some, not for others . (Definitely not for us, although we have been really blessed with good teachers at our present school-it's the administration and the crappy kids that make me furious.) Private school is great, if you have the money. Homeschool is hard, but the results are almost always better than what the child can achieve in school. As for socialization, just look at the high school that has 90 pregnant teens. That's some socialization I would prefer my kids not have.

16 Mrs. AllenG and I hope to be able to home-school our kids (at least through Jr. High).  Tough love doesn't have to be quite that tough, but she's largely right- people (and kids are people, though it seems many parents don't treat them as such) are mostly inherently lazy, and would rather just throw up their hands and say "I can't do it" than keep trying.  At some point, if you -as a parent- don't find some way to motivate them (and pain- including not getting to see their friends- is about the best motivator out there), that "I can't do it" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

17

my father made it perfectly clear to me when I was 7, I had done something stupid and made him mad, he said to me "I'll get rid of you and make another one just like you"

that's when I realized I wasn't "special", to a liberal that is a horror story but to regular folks that was just part of growing up.

18 Everything I needed to know, I learned in Teleprompter school.

19 I love it here. Where else can you cheer on "an erection lasting longer than four hours" for agreeing with you?

20 there is alot of ground between liberal yuppies spoiling rotten their pampered kids and what the chinese do.

21

There is a lot of good to be said for parents putting more pressure on students to perform well, and instilling a greater sense of discipline when it comes to studying.  That said, the insanity that is East Asian educational culture is not something that I believe is healthy, and certainly not worth the price of a 10% increase in test scores (the difference between the US and Hong Kong on a lot of the standardized tests).  While the socialization arguement is often overstated, I think a better arguement can be made that the beauricratic and conformist society that encourage the "Chinese Mother" are also the opposite of the American experience, and contrary to the spirit that allowed for our prosperity.

22 As much as I agree that "stressing academic success *is* good for children", and that kids should keep their grades up and get a modicum of assigned chores done, beyond that, Amy Chua's idea of regimenting her kids' whole lives is sickening. Somebody check Sophia's and Louisa's wrists for "cutting". I predict at least one suicide attempt in 5 years...

23 This is the wrong argument to have. The greatest impediment to an American child's learning is the public school system.

The system that punishes achievement and rewards complacency.

24 So, where exactly did the rigorous rules apply or more to the point, fail to apply to the people working in the Chinese take outs on every corner in America. The piano and violin lessons didn't take or what? Just about every one of them are Chinese, I don't see violins and pianos, I don't see marvels of cultural society.I just see a Chinese guy or gal cooking my food and living 10 people at a clip in two bedroom apartments.I actually saw one of these guys washing in an apartment pool at 1 in the morning. Not to say that American mothers are perfect and all of that but I sure don't hold the Chinese as exemplar examples of child rearing, not to mention they rear one child per family over there, don't they. One kid per family should be a cinch, you would think.

25

You're educating children the Wong way!

26


German fathers make great chinese mothers.

jus saying.

27 I have a LOT to say on the "homeschoolers" issue. I'm 29 years old and I was homeschooled for over 5 years during 4th-8th grade. My parents decided to send me back to school in 8th grade (my birthday is in August, they wanted me to be one of the older kids rather than youngest). On my very first day of school, the very first subject we covered was one of my favorites, Mythology. With every question the teacher asked I enthusiastically raised my hand. What I didn't seem to notice or care about was that none of the other students were raising their hands. I was a bit shocked, "am I the only one who knows any of this stuff?" I thought to myself. It was at that point, after getting many glares and eye-rolls from my classmates that the kid sitting next to me leaned over and whispered "What are you doing??". I said "I'm answering the questions". He said "you're not supposed to do that". My mind was blown. I couldn't comprehend what he was saying. How could this kid suggest that we not answer questions that the teacher is asking? This was the most memorable encounter I had in learning "social norms" that I had missed out on all through homeschool. There were all sorts of "rules" (most of them stupid and ridiculous) that us kids were apparently supposed to follow. It took me all of 2 months to get caught up on things. However, due to my homeschooling experience I learned how to teach myself from textbooks (an invaluable lesson that paid off in college), how to read at a much higher level and faster rate than my classmates, and also the ability to be able to make friends quickly and actually hold conversations with adults at a very young age. All skills you had to learn as a homeschooler because you didn't get the opportunity to make friends with kids your own age very often, and frequently I was having to explain to adults why it was I wasn't in school. Homeschooling =/= isolation. There are plenty of sports activities available, other kids in the neighborhood to play with, and also lots of homeschooler-programs designed to get kids interacting with each other. My siblings and I participated in a once-a-week gym class for homeschool kids that we all loved. Besides, I've met many more kids who were enrolled in school their entire lives that are much more reserved and socially inept than any homeschool kid I've met.

28 Somebody check Sophia's and Louisa's wrists for "cutting". I predict at least one suicide attempt in 5 years...

I predict a trip out to Van Nuys and a scorching career in Asian pr0n.

29 By limiting sleepovers and the time spent with other kids she's doing them a favor. Kids who spend too much time with their friends develop peer dependence which delays the process of internalizing values. They just follow the values of whatever peer group they happen to be in. That's why so many seemingly mature kids go off the rails when they leave home.

30

Do they take into account all of the babies Chinese parents drowned to get a son...

or just the survivors?

31 Amy Chua needs to get her mind right.

If she's indicative of "Chinese mothers," we will one day be facing an army of fucked up, angry former kids. It is possible that Little Chua doesn't want to be a pianist, a physicist or anything but a normal, well-adjusted child playing with toys. It happens, you know.

If a child loves -- or learns, through less brutal means than Amy Chua employed here -- to make music, or paint pictures, or do any "creative" thing, he or she will do exactly that. Otherwise, they may do it well, but without the "soul" that distinguishes great from capable.

Projecting your desires on the kidlings is a sure way to breed a race of psychotics.

32 27. Oh my GOD you are right about that! (my husband is German and he LOVED the article VERY MUCH) meanwhile I'm Italian so I baby baby baby them

33 German fathers make great chinese mothers.

There is a transvestite/fetish joke in there somewhere...

34 Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.

The Chinese have practiced infanticide throughout history, culminating with tens of millions sex ratio difference between boys and girls. So I guess the opposite of "care" in the Chinese language is kill.

35 It's not that I have any use for those subjects per se at this point (or at any other point in my life, really), but the sort of hard-thinking tough logic problems they presented me started my brain looking at other stuff similarly.
FNORD, man, fnord!!!

36 This topic happens to be in my wheel-house. A couple of observations: 1) Irony and sarcasm are lousy parenting and/or teaching techniques. They are ineffective. Don't use them. 2) You're the parent 100% of the time. The percent of time you spend being your kid's friend is variable. Parent first, friend after. 3) If you're reading a book on parenting paradigms used by Chinese mothers, and you're not Chinese - and you don't have a track record of successful New Years Resolutions being completed you're going to screw your kid up more than you can imagine. . For all the yammering about raising kids when they're pre-adolescent, take a look at just how seriously screwed up Chinese adolescents are. Raising kids is the ultimate "outcome based" education. If your kid is a self-sufficient member of society equipped with the skills for life-long learning and some measure of controlling any psycopathic or sociopathic impulses, you done good. ,

37 Homeschooling...it's like anything else, great if done right, trouble otherwise.  I've seen very, very smart and well-socialized homeschoolers.  I've also seen 'em whose head has been so filled with BS by their folks it's amazing they can function (even marginally) in polite society.  So yeah, case-by-case.

38 I can speak for the downside of homeschooling -- I was struggling in first grade, so my mom pulled me out and kept me (and my younger sisters) home until I was in eighth grade, when she had to go to work. Problem: I was struggling because of my crapsack home environment, and it didn't get any better once I was immersed in it 24/7. At 14, I was "punished" with public school because I couldn't teach myself algebra at home -- but my social and coping skills had been so repressed/stunted that middle and high school were pretty much hell until my senior year. My sisters did better, partly because I was the family chew toy and they weren't, partly because they reentered the system at a younger age and had longer to adjust before things really got serious for them. (How well they "adjusted" is another rant.)

So yeah. Homeschooling's great when it's done right. Otherwise ...

39
1 Just gave my kid(home educated) a big list of long sentences to diagram. Bwahahaha.

Wow, that's savage. Beastly, even. I think you're related to Attila the Nun, who gave me long sentences to diagram.

Oh, and the number of times I've had to diagram a sentance since: 0.

40

I predict a trip out to Van Nuys and a scorching career in Asian pr0n.

While a lot of half/half white/asian kids are striking (think Kristiara Barrington if you remember her), others are not.

41 Incidentally, how much of a whipped pussy POS is her husband?  Apparently he doesn't have any say in how the kids are raised.

42

Drider,

THat's the difference btw the poor Chinese and the modestly well-off (or getting there).  The Chinese poor are just as dumb as our tailer trash.  It's their middle class that exemplifies the hard work=success ethos that made our country great in teh first place, back when America was mostly European.

Now Europeans are lazy, self-indulgent, and unfocused.  And their American descendants are more so.

David Brooks' inability to navigate a room full of 14 year old girls notwithstanding, social skills are not "lost" or missing in kinds who are focused on intellectual tasks, provided the social aspects are attended to in turn.  Homeschooling has lots LOTS of group activities to get kids to interact with each other.  Homeschoolers are just frankly more mature, and socialized by adults, so they act more like adults.  Sure there are the weirdos, but those are the kids of weirdos, by and large.

Best thing you can do for your kids is sacrifice an income (if possible) and teach them yourself

43 chinese jokes | chinese games | chinese songs | chinese poems | chinese funny

44 Practicing a piece of music for four hours requires focused attention, but it is nowhere near as cognitively demanding as a sleepover with 14-year-old girls. Managing status rivalries, negotiating group dynamics, understanding social norms, navigating the distinction between self and group — these and other social tests impose cognitive demands that blow away any intense tutoring session or a class at Yale.

Why is it not difficult to imagine Brooks being in his element at a sleepover?

45 That's . . . why the New York Times exists in the first place, after all -- to reassure and flatter and cocoon its Ruling Class readership.

Witness the television ads in the NYC area for the Times weekend deal - paraphrasing a bit: "The Times reporters are the best in the business, and no one can dispute that."

46 22-it's been over twenty years, but when I taught in a Hong Kong university, the majority of my students had serious problems with critical thinking skills. If something required rote memorization, they were amazing. But writing papers, applying the rote material to situational questions, these were things they did very poorly. ( I particularly enjoyed one student's paper on the Swiss Navy, and their exploits in the Iran/Iraq war. I still haven't found any info on that, or how they came up with it. Perhaps creative writing is preferential to expositional writing.) That said, we need more rote requirements, so that students have a basis of knowledge from which to make solid, logical judgments. But I think that both rote knowledge and critical thinking skills are lacking in the NEA approved curriculum.

47 My kid never would have thrown a tantrum like that in the first place.
This Chua mom sucks ass.
Hard.

48

When her daughter is older and reminiscing about her childhood, she's gonna remember the time her fingers bled trying to learn Brahms instead of that fun sleepover before the boy band concert. 

49 Sorry, If we need to resort to moronic generalizations, I'll take artistic, Orthodox Jewish parents.  Discipline may get you discipline, but what about soft and fuzzy?  Both are needed.  It's unclear to me that Chinese culture gets you both.  Call me back when the Chinese start inventing new stuff....

50 Bingo!  Though, the sexual reference of "pancakes" was thoroughly unnecessary.
Tell me about it!

51 As my Upper West Side relatives tell it, they are just buying a peer group.

52

I'm so grateful that my parents didn't exult over every little accomplishment when I was a child.  I didn't even know getting an A was all that special until I was in fourth or fifth grade and the other kids were talking about it.  It was just how things were supposed to be for my family.  Why celebrate the status quo? 

I was damn lucky to have parents who didn't buy me video games but who took me to the library and the book store, and a father who watched history programs instead of sports, and a mother who let my sister and I watch Shakespeare on School of the Air and didn't act like it was above our comprehension level.  Now my sister's working on a PhD and I'm a semi-regular commenter at AoSHQ.  I'd say we've both gone pretty far in the world.

53

Practicing a piece of music for four hours requires focused attention, but it is nowhere near as cognitively demanding as a sleepover with 14-year-old girls.  -- David Brooks

This gets my vote for the creepiest sentence, ever.

While Brooks is a weenie liberal "BoBo" dumbass, having had to chaperone such parties, I can't deny what Brooks is stating. Then again, having to *drive* such screaming girls around is trying too.

54  44 Incidentally, how much of a whipped pussy POS is her husband?  Apparently he doesn't have any say in how the kids are raised. Posted by: Alex



_{Shhh...  She might hear you.}

55

What's the suicide rate for Chinese teenagers?

Yeah one of the highest of any country.

56 We're the highest and the driest.

57 Practicing a piece of music for four hours requires focused attention, but it is nowhere near as cognitively demanding as a sleepover with 14-year-old girls.

Good Lord,that is some weapons grade stupid there.

But the 10 ton elephant on the couch that is inferred in this story, but not mentioned outright is that the "Chinese mother" is at home actively raising the children and not at work and farming the kid out to day care.

We used to do that when I was a kid in the 50s.

58 Homeschooling...it's like anything else, great if done right, trouble otherwise.  I've seen very, very smart and well-socialized homeschoolers.  I've also seen 'em whose head has been so filled with BS by their folks it's amazing they can function (even marginally) in polite society.  So yeah, case-by-case.

Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at January 18, 2011 12:24 PM (GBXon)

You're right. I've seen both sides of the aisle on homeschooling.  I knew an expat family when I lives overseas (in Asia...ha) who home schooled their 7 or 8 kids.  The oldest was scoring off the charts when it came time for college entrance test and the friendlies kids you'd ever meet.

The other family I know is my brother-in-law's.  Eight kids all dumber than the next because the mother is box of rocks stupid.

59

1 Just gave my kid(home educated) a big list of long sentences to diagram. Bwahahaha.

What a coincidence!  I just taught some 12 year old girls how to put in thair diaphragms!

60 44 Incidentally, how much of a whipped pussy POS is her husband?  Apparently he doesn't have any say in how the kids are raised.

Or he is in tact agreement with Amy's parenting methods, for the maintenance of family honor and such. 

I asked the Chinese lab tech other day if she raised her daughter in the same manner as Amy did.  The lab tech wasn't that extreme in her parenting methods - she let her daughter quit piano lessons in 9th grade, .  Still, this woman kept her daughter's main focus on her school work was there and it shows.  Currently, this woman's daughter is going to school in Boston and is near the top of her class.

61 The best way to learn critical thinking is by having your arguments dissected. That's why you shouldn't automatically get an A for writing a paper that parrots your professor's opinions. Make a strong argument or get a lousy grade. Do this over and over again, and you'll eventually learn how to make a strong argument.

62 Lest people think that China doesn't have a sense of humor. If you put the symbol for "woman" next to the symbol for "woman" and make one symbol consisting of two "woman" symbols, you get the word for gossip. If you group three "woman" symbols to make one symbol, you get the word for "trouble" .

63 The problem is that the current educational system seems to have only two points: mass production education (classrooms of forty kids, schools of 2000, crappy teachers, pregnancy and violence) or individual homeschooling.  You can try to get away with sending your kids to a private school, if you can afford it.

64 What I find interesting is she threatened to bring the doll house to the Salvation Army, but didn't and the kid called her on it. She then goes on to threaten no lunch, no dinner, no play dates, no parties...but no follow through on the threats? This Chinese mom is in my mind no different than the liberal yuppies. My three kids rarely need a threat, you know why? They've seen what happens when one is made.

65 "What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences"

The core truth distilled into two sentences. 

66 Oh, and the number of times I've had to diagram a sentance since: 0.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at January 18, 2011 12:25 PM

I'm a writer -- and, by some metrics, a "good" writer (my editors love my text because they don't have to correct it, and readers seem to dig my stuff) -- and I couldn't diagram a sentence if you held a Portable Man-Caused Disaster Device to my head.

My grandmother taught me to read and write when I was three, and I loved reading. Still do. No one punished me or laid guilt on me if I decided to go out and play with the other kids in between reading sessions.

What I learned about the language came from well-educated authors and teachers who, thank God, didn't waste much time on worthless shit like diagramming sentences.

67 While a lot of half/half white/asian kids are striking (think Kristiara Barrington if you remember her), others are not.

Others like....Olivia Munn and Maggie Q?

68 As a child, my parents told me: There was no Santa Claus The Tooth Fairy Didn't Exist The Easter Bunny wouldn't be stopping by the World is arbitrary and capricious .... as a child, I was disabused. .

69 What I find interesting is she threatened to bring the doll house to the Salvation Army, but didn't and the kid called her on it. She then goes on to threaten no lunch, no dinner, no play dates, no parties...but no follow through on the threats? This Chinese mom is in my mind no different than the liberal yuppies. My three kids rarely need a threat, you know why? They've seen what happens when one is made. I noticed the same thing. I've got a great story from when I was 10 and my parents made me sit at the table for 3 days without food until I ate my Green Beans (I had refused to eat them when I was told). Needless to say, I choked down anything they put on the table after that without much debate because I knew what would happen if I tried to pull another stunt like that.

70 No wire hangars, ever.

71 when I was 10 and my parents made me sit at the table for 3 days without food

Ummm...what?

72 #66  The problem with modern education is that modern parents think they can outsource the core of education to a school.

73 65: ...and if you put four together, you get a XXX rating!

74 this is causing a firestorm....I mean everyone is talking about it.  Saw her interviewed and she was talking about going to a dinner party and saying how she punished one of her kids, I got the impression she said it matter of factly like everyone punishes that way.  Apparently, one of the female attendees got very upset and got up from the table and the hostess had everything she could do to keep the dinner party going.  And the chinese mom didn't understand what she had said or done.

Among my friends most don't have children and they are basing their discussion of this on "what my mother did".   It's funny the uber successful ones had moms that were balanced in their approach.   I've heard a lot of "how come she wasn't arrested and her kids given to child protective services cause that is definitely child abuse" and that inevitably leads to a discussion of cultural norms and our country's laws. 

75 My only rule as a parent was that my parental will was an unalterable force, like gravity, so I made few rules, but enforced them without exception.

76 David! Stop hogging all the s'mores!

77 76 #66  The problem with modern education is that modern parents think they can outsource the core of education to a school.

All great change in America begins at the dinner table

78 76:  I would disagree; the problem with modern education is that modern educators fail to understand what the core of education is.

79 The Chinese have a long history of having been at the intellectual forefront.

Recently?  As the pathetic rejoinder goes, lots was invented in the Arab/Muslim world.  But not for centuries.

80

I believe it is a balancing act in education, but there is no doubt this country has strayed far from the correct path.  There's nothing particularly magical about the  so-called 'Chinese approach'--it is found throughout Asia and used to be part of the educational process in this country.

Rote learning and regimentation can be taken too far, but it definitely has its place.

To get a feel of how things have changed for the worse, pick up a typical high school textbook from the '60's or early 70's.  That material is now typically covered in upper level college courses.

The touchy-feely approach of four decades of liberal-dominated education has produced a generation of ignorant morons that vote Democrat. 

Pretty much exactly what they intended, in other words.

81 China is the nation in which girls are often aborted selectively since you can only have 1 kid. Sorry but it is the absolute LAST country I am going to look to on how to raise my kids. Convienently, David Brooks reminds us the opposite end of this spectrum- the yuppie morons whose kids I went to college with, by buying their way in. A lot of their kids were selfish, talentless idiots. Our art program was a joke in 2003 as a turnstyle for the kids of rich parents to basically skate through and get a worthless degree. We got a professor who actually started challenging us, and most of the yuppie morons switched majors into sociology etc. They had probably never faced a challenge to their greatness in their entire life. I fucking hate the attitude of "you are just as good as" That is how a Schnabel will one day sell for more than a Picasso. Total lack of talent but coddling from birth, and then coddling from the art gallery circuit. Never a black mark to be seen.

82 @ 75 I was a really picky eater when I was a kid. So when my parents had had enough, they made me sit at the table until I finished the green beans that were on my plate that night. Every morning I'd get up and sit at the table with the plate of beans in front of me. I was allowed to drink water and use the bathroom, but that was about it. And yes, I had several (what I thought were) clever attempts at trying to get rid of the food, but got busted every time. I think on day 2 they just made me sit in my room until I was ready to eat, but I just slept most of the day.

83 Can I say this is old now or should I wait for the double post?

Actually glad to see this discussed here at the HQ.  When Savage covered it I had to listen to him give Trump a tongue bath.

84

3) If you're reading a book on parenting paradigms used by Chinese mothers, and you're not Chinese - and you don't have a track record of successful New Years Resolutions being completed you're going to screw your kid up more than you can imagine.

Yep, that was my first thought when she talked about telling her kid she was "garbage". How many people are capable of doing that AND helping to build up a kid's self-esteem?

85 The Chinese have a long history of having been at the intellectual forefront.

Well, the coolies did build the Transcontinental Railroad, and carve the Grand Canyon.

86 "What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences"

The core truth distilled into two sentences. 
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 18, 2011 12:32 PM

I call BS on this, Purp.

When learning is made fun -- and I know this from experience -- you can be happy before you're "good at" whatever you're learning.

I know a lot of people who have spent their lives learning music and have never gotten "good" at it. Listening to them play their chosen instruments sets your teeth on edge. But they love it. Even those who know they don't have what it takes can please themselves by simply performing.

Do we have to make them miserable by insisting they must be "good?"

BTW -- have you ever listened to some of these Asian instrumental prodigies? Yeah, a lot of them can crank out the notes like nobody's business. But, aside from absurd body English and agonized facial expressions, some deliver performances that are cold as ice, and less than satisfying.

87

I believe the children are our future.

88 Chua's tactics strike me as a little extreme but I'd guess that Western parents can usefully move quite a bit towards her way of thinking.

I think that Western parenting mores used to be closer to that model  - notably back when Western children actually learned things of value.

Children are little barbarians, and a parents job is to instill civilization in them along with the ability to learn for themselves.

Interestingly the ruling Bobos do still work on the latter for their children, while actively trying to sabotage middle/lower class people from doing the same.

However, part of the rise of liberalism is the retreat from civilizing children. If you can have anything you want by throwing a big enough tantrum, why would you ever work hard for things yourself? Just scream that you will hold your breath until mommy, or mommy government, gives you the toy you want and who gives a crap if it is taken from someone else?

89

@Vic, it's not that she says she punishes her girls...the incident that made another woman cry was when Chua said she called her daughter a piece of garbage.  And, dude, that's just wrong, to me.

I punish my kids, but I don't insult them.  I do tell them that if I thought they were stupid or bad or whatever might come close to calling them "garbage" I wouldn't bother with punishing them.

90 The touchy-feely approach of four decades of liberal-dominated education has produced a generation of ignorant morons that vote Democrat. Pretty much exactly what they intended, in other words. Posted by: phineas gage at January 18, 2011 12:40 PM (MeFp BINGO. I guarantee you 8 out of 10 college students could not point out their state capitol on a map at this point.

91 Heathens. None of this pathetic mewling will do a thing to turn out functional adults. A good sound beating will do wonders - I can assure you, as will ritual shaving.

92 I lurk mostly, but we homeschooled our 2 sons from 3rd grade through HS graduation.  Oldest is a sophmore, youngest is a freshman at TAMU.  My husband is oil and gas and we have been all over the world.  I realize we're maybe not a typical homeschool family, but our boys are very social and much more "mature" than many boys their age.  Plus, we have a very good relationship with our sons.  The angsst of the teen years with all the peer pressure and crap - while not smooth, was a lot less stressful than a lot of our friends with kids in school - from private to public to the American schools in the Middle East.

93

Do you believe that critical thinking can really be directly taught?

I don't think critical thinking can be taught.  I think it has to be learned, as you say.  Teachers/educators, whatever the hell they're called these days, can introduce concepts and questions that start their students thinking in critical ways, but actual critical thinking is something that's learned over time through experience.  I like your correlation between algebra and logic puzzles and critical thinking, Ace.  For me, it was literature; puzzling out what words meant by examining their context, and placing works in their historical periods for greater understanding.  I mean, it's one thing to read, "To be or not to be, that is the question," and another thing entirely to read it and ask yourself, "What the heck is he talking about?"  

I think that's one of the reasons the recent furor about Huckleberry Finn being censored to remove the N-word and the term "injun" really angered me.  There is no reason to remove those words if they're placed in context and children are taught to understand WHY they're there, and made to think about how language and race relations have changed in the century and more since its publication.  But no.  Better to just take away the sensational aspects and turn it into a book about a boy, a slave, and a river. 

Whatever.  I'm grateful to God that I'm out of public education, and that I got out when I did. They still had some SENSE when I was there.

94
48 Witness the television ads in the NYC area for the Times weekend deal - paraphrasing a bit: "The Times reporters are the best in the business, and no one can dispute that."
Posted by: Z as in Jersey at January 18, 2011 12:27 PM (sXUiz)

That line is a perfect howler for me. But it is unquestionably true for true believers of the NYT and they will never, ever look at evidence to the contrary.

95 Remember that episode of Punky Brewster where Punky gets invited to a very wealthy kid's birthday party?  All the kid wanted to do was catch frogs with Punky, but his parents & personal assistant wouldn't let him. The kid ends up freaking out, firing his assistant and has a frog race on the ballroom floor. He's probably now an S & M Dungeon Slave or in prison for raping mannequins.   

96 The truth is, people (and especially kids) live up to their expectations. If you never demand more out of a kid, they'll never give you more. You have to have high expectations and demand much, and the kids will work up to that. Sure, every once in a while you're going to have some tough love incidents like this author describes above, but I think it's unfair to say that was a frequent occurrence in how she raised her kids. It's probably that it was one of the more extreme examples, and one of the most memorable.

97
Recently?  As the pathetic rejoinder goes, lots was invented in the Arab/Muslim world.  But not for centuries.

Posted by: ParisParamus at January 18, 2011 12:38 PM (Q16sd)

Well, but it is actually *true* that the Chinese were once a fount of science and technology.

The Arabs merely conquered the Greeks and Indians and took credit for what they stole.

98

My orientation into critical thinking was tearing apart advertisements throughout my entire youth. I still do it. My latest peeve is the one that says, "We throw away 1.7 billion toilet paper tubes in America every day. That enough to fill the Empire State Building twice."

Really? Because that averages out to every person in America going through about 5 rolls of toilet paper a day. I don't want to get into my personal bathroom habits, but 5 rolls of toilet paper a day seems like a lot to me. I know, people use toilet paper to blow their noses and wipe their dry-erase boards, but it still seems high.

Anyway, I still do this because (1) there are so many exercises available and (2) so many things that aren't advertisements really are.

99 The Last Psychiatrist wrote about this last week Â… http://tinyurl.com/4s9mgkt

100 The heart of the difference, to me, is that (however over-harsh they may be) Tough-love type mothers (and fathers) still treat their children as small people, instead of as pets.

Example:  If my dog doesn't lie down when told, he's not in trouble (I may speak more harshly to get him to sit, but he's not in trouble).  If my son doesn't do what he's told when he's told to do it, he's in trouble.  There's even a (semi-conscious) pseudo-formula I use to decide how much trouble: how dangerous is what he's doing, how many times (previously) have I told him not to do it, how well or badly behaved has he been recently (last few hours) etc.

The kids I see who misbehave the most are the ones whose parents are constantly saying "no no" or making empty threats ("Do that again and I'll spank you." [Kid does it again] "This is your last warning, do that again and I'll spank you." [Kid does it again] "This is your... (etc. etc.)) instead of actually forcing their children to obey.

Coddling your kids and preventing them failing isn't really helping them.  I'm just not sure that threatening to give your kid's stuff away because they can't (won't) learn a piece of music is helping them either.

101 I'm unclear as to why the solution to society's ills is to treat our children stricter than we ourselves were treated.  I had playdates and sleepovers and can't play any musical instruments.  I'm not exactly living in a poorhouse nowadays.

As for the assertion that Chinese mothers are superior,lets point out that if a Chinese mother has a girl in China, odds are very good it will be abandoned or killed in favor of a son, thanks to China's one-child policy.

Such wonderful parents.

102 Children are little barbarians, and a parents job is to instill civilization in them along with the ability to learn for themselves.

This +1.  At my house, we eat the main meal of the day together.  Have to prompt  the 4 kids (A11 - 19) at every step to get the table set.  Final reminder is, "we are not barbarians, put out napkins and use them!"  Seems to crack them up.  Ex-wife lets them free range graze/forage for food at her home until she brings home a meal in a drive-thru window bag.

103 No, Whitney! It takes a village to raise a pusher child.

104 One other thing, everyone seems to be focusing on the harshness that the mother treats the kid who's trying to learn/play a difficult musical piece. Yet, we never find out how it ends? Can you imagine the kind of ego-boost and life-lesson that's going to give the kid when they finally learn how to play that piece? Here's something that she wanted to give up on, that she spent sweat and tears working for, never giving up on it (due to her harsh mother), and then finally is able to play it. How does the alternative method of dealing with that situation (i.e. - realizing they are "different" than their sibling who could play it at the same age), provide that same kind of lesson/self-worth?

105 Mr. Rogers hardest hit.

106 What do I want with Chinese kids?

107 My parents never made me do chores. I only had to take turns setting & clearing the dinner table and I thought that was torture. But, I used to do lots of chores for my mom without being asked, because it became fun when I decided to do it on my own.  I actually still like cleaning to this day.

108

As for the assertion that Chinese mothers are superior,lets point out that if a Chinese mother has a girl in China, odds are very good it will be abandoned or killed in favor of a son, thanks to China's one-child policy.

For the record, let us remember that Mrs. Chua (maiden name) is 2nd generation Chinese American, married to a Jewish American, living in NYC. She probably runs with the BoBo crowd, even though she definitely does not parent like them.

109 "Do you believe that critical thinking can really be directly taught? I sort of don't."

I'll take Umbrage for $400, Ace.  I had a Psych course in college, "Research Methods of Cognitive Psychology".  The professor taught us about design of experiments, in a way that to this day informs my critical thinking - what are the variables, what can be controlled, what can't, what IS being controlled, what are the limits, what are the assumptions, etc.  While it wasn't direct, in terms of being called, "Critical Thinking", it's as close as I can think it could be so taught directly.

More to topic, I'm married to a Chinese wife, who is nothing of the described Chinese mother.  Everything with her 7 year old daughter is a negotiation, and you know who wins every single one of those negotiations?  Yes, the seven year old.  I'm developing my own sense of chinese motherhood, or what I'd call simply good ole' fashioned hold-you-to-real-standards American parenthood, to care for our own 2 year old daughter.

110 If you never demand more out of a kid, they'll never give you more. You have to have high expectations and demand much, and the kids will work up to that.

Posted by: ConservativeintheCity at January 18, 2011 12:45 PM (JourR)

I agree with you completely.  My ex-wife however, would call you mean and abusive.

111 For the record, let us remember that Mrs. Chua (maiden name) is 2nd generation Chinese American, married to a Jewish American, living in NYC. She probably runs with the BoBo crowd, even though she definitely does not parent like them.

That is very true.

But she didn't say Chinese American moms married to Jewish men were the best though.  She said Chinese moms were.  At which point it's fair to make her answer for the barbaric practice that Chinese moms in the aggregate do.

112

My next door neighbors have five kids all homeschooled. The youngest is 15.

The oldest -a boy-is now in med school...the next..a girl is now going for her PhD in physics at MIT..the next -a boy started law school...the fourth is playing minor league baseball..and the youngest at 15 will graduate this year and start college in the fall..

Today the youngest, along with a group of about 20 other homeschooled kids, is skiing...

Over the weekend she had a mixed party with about 30 kids there..

I think most people don't understand homeschooling because they pay too much attention to the media

113 @117 I've already had this conversation with my wife, and I've already told her I'm completely fine being the "bad cop" and our children hating me for most of their childhood (until about 17 or 18 when it all starts to click).

114

ConservativeintheCity,

She mentions that her daughter finally was able to play the piece of music and was thrilled.  The problem isn't that she pushes her daughter to keep practicing, it's that she treats her children like shit, her husband as well, and appears to allow them no room for error or for a life.  Note that she doesn't allow any instrument but piano or violin.  I was expected to put in an hour of trumpet practice a night when I was in the band, but I chose to be in the band and play trumpet, so I had no one to blame but myself. 

115

I've always believed that a parent's main responsibility was to watch their child and note what they were naturally interested in, then nurture that inquisitiveness. Curiosity will take care of the rest.

That's not how I was raised, not by a long shot. But I still tried to do that, while the Daughter of Satan (the ex-) stood in my way at every opportunity.

116

Most parents drag out the "but, they're not learning socialization" retort as a shield. For many reasons, but mainly because "socialization" is not easily measured.

Grades, musicianship, etc. can be measured. And Asians seem to be kicking ass, based on their proportional representation. Same with home-schoolers and spelling bees. Don't grade them on their ability to spell, grade them on their...socialization, which is vague enough to avoid grading, which is the point.

I do not parent as Chua does. I could give a host of reasons, of varying importance. Part of the reason, honestly, is that I am not willing to put in the time.

117 ...and meat helmets in the spring.

118

Another thing that irritates me is when an ad cites a number but preceds it with up to and follows it with or more. "Save up to fifty dollars or more!" "Earn up to four thousand dollars a month or more!"

All they're doing is manipulating people with meaningless claims designed to have effect because it uses a certain number. "Earn up to $4,000 or more" is exactly the same as "earn up to $5,000 or more" and "earn up to $3,000 or more" -- but the $5k figure seems too high to be credible and the $3k figure is too low to be interesting.

I'm always on the lookout for tricks like this. I'm glad I'm not alone.

119

She mentions that her daughter finally was able to play the piece of music and was thrilled.  The problem isn't that she pushes her daughter to keep practicing, it's that she treats her children like shit, her husband as well, and appears to allow them no room for error or for a life. 

That was what bothered me as well. Perhaps Amy Chua was embellishing it for good book sales, but the tone just sickened me.

Note that she doesn't allow any instrument but piano or violin.  I was expected to put in an hour of trumpet practice a night when I was in the band, but I chose to be in the band and play trumpet, so I had no one to blame but myself. 

Exactly. Suppose her daughter wanted to be in the marching band, or play guitar/bass/drums in a garage band with friends who also played. Even if she kept her grades up, didn't do drugs, and stayed out of trouble, Amy Chua would no doubt have a shit-fit. I shudder to think what will become of her daughters.

 

120

I shudder to think what will become of her daughters.

Mexican Midget Gangbang: 6!

121 Considering socializing with the heathens and little barbarians in public school these days will most likely get your children hooked on drugs, pregnant, riddled with STDs, in jail, or dead, I'll take the "lack of socialization" that comes from homeschooling any day.

122 @125 I love the "unemployed Astoria mom makes xxx money from home."

Oddly enough, that very same mom is also unemployed in whatever town I happen to be in when I am online, so she really gets around.

I also like the "scam exposed" one for acai berries using a head shot of that hot French television newsreader.  I am quite sure they are not paying her royalties.

123

OT, the local hate-filled vitriolic talk radio station that carries Rush said on the break that the Texas inauguration is today, Rick Perry sworn in, and then speculation on future national aspirations for Perry and Lt Gov. Dewhurst.

Dewhurst may seek KBH's Senate seat in 2012.  Perry mentioned as possible VP candidate, but not pursuing the top spot.

Imagine an Alaska/Texas ticket and what could be made of that.

124 there are cognitive/developmental limitations involved with higher order functions. You can't simply ** demand ** that a child perform a task that involves cognitive functioning any more than you can reasonably demand that a child grow taller NOW. There's a time when kids are "ready" for algebra because they have the capacity to work with abstractions - the trick is to get the kid at that point by the time they're ready for it. You can't just brow-beat them into capability. .

125

Has anyone noticed the older kids in stores with pacifiers in their wittle mouths? I mean, ages 4 and 5 years old and talking around the paci--they are poster children for their generation (one son who had a binkie knew his crib was the only place for it). This is parenting today for some: give in and/or stick the little darlin' in front of a DVR--a smallish DVR player for restaurants and plane trips, and a DVR in the minivan. The DVR generation. The Chinese mom may go overboard as a drill sgt, but she is better than those raised with no rules at all.

I can only remember one son's tantrum in public: a spread-eagle screaming fit face-plant in a grocery store as a two-year-old. My hands were full and his four year old brother and I left him there, after telling him "no" to some candy and then telling him to come on. We walked around the corner of the grocery aisle. The second he noticed we were gone (and waiting for him 10 feet away) the screeching stopped and he never did it again. We took long car trips and plane rides with both boys and never had a problem. I don't know if I threatened to call Santa at times, but I never had to beat them to get them to behave. Taking away TV or computer seemed to work well for them, as well as time out. One was smart enough to put himself into time out before I even knew something was wrong (we always went easy on that kid, as he is pretty funny).  I have a feeling that "Super Nanny" show is not an outlier today.

My sons managed to be conservative college grads (with jobs! They are not still on our insurance or living at home like the Democrats!) called me "the strictest Mom on the block" when the elder hit 7th grade. My response? I thanked him. Hell nearly froze over on the day he thanked me for "having boundaries" as he now teaches high school and sees the results of the opposite to strict.

126 Fuck Chinese mothers. Wow, her kid can play someone else's composition. Who's teaching her how to create her own music? Who's teaching Chinese kids how to innovate instead of reverse-engineer and stamp out cheap copies? That's why you're not driving Chinese cars or waiting for the latest Chinese processor to hit the market. And fuck this lady, anyway. Just what America needs - another future psycho who was given mental and verbal beatings until she winds up in a clock tower with a rifle. AmyChua is more concerned with how her daughter's accomplishments reflect on HER than if the kid is miserable or not. There's enough conflict that naturally develops without establishing that as the basis of your relationship.

127 or, to put this in child development terms: By the time you figure out a seven year old, they're eight. .

128 Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences.

Man, reading this just breaks my heart.

My wife worked with a 54yr old man whose father overrode all of his preferences and forced him into the family business.

The problem was that his father's strengths weren't his strengths--they were his weaknesses. So he was stuck in a job he wasn't cut out for with his dad for a boss. He fucked up constantly and his old man was forever displaying disappointment in him.

The guy tried hard, but his heart wasn't in it. He wasn't cut out for business; he was more the artistic type--singing in choirs, participating in theater groups, hand doing photography.

I'm convinced he could have made a living doing one of these things if his dad had allowed it. He truly had acting talent and could do some of the funniest impersonations you'd ever seen.

But he was stuck in an office doing work he hated, trapped forever under his father's thumb.

I never want to do that to my kid. I believe my role is to guide him and help him use his God-given talents and strengths to his best advantage. It isn't my job to run his life for him.

Does that mean I'm soft on him? No. He's only four and I'm already all over him for giving up on things as soon as he gets frustrated. I always make him go back for another try when he wants to quit. But I don't call him names or insult him over it. I just don't allow quitting at the first sign of resistance to be an option.

But hell, he's four. Some days his attention span isn't very long, so I've learned to pick my spots. Some days I push. Other days I let him self-direct his activities (so long as it isn't him sitting in front of the TV all day) and do his own thing. I try to mix structure with free time because I believe that kids naturally learn through play.

I try to never forget that kids are complicated, just like adults are. Their emotions, fears, concerns and wants should be respected even as you set behavioral boundaries.

I'm firm. I spank when needed and generally don't put up with a lot of bullshit. But just pushing, pushing, pushing on your kids doesn't make for happy, well-adjusted individuals in my opinion.

129 This woman and her little bitch husband remind me of that bumper sticker for parents of hipsters: MY SON HAS AN ASIAN GIRLFRIEND, BUT SOMETIMES HE SUCKS COCK IRONICALLY

130

"Daughter of Satan"

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at January 18, 2011 01:03 PM (b6qrg)

Heh!  Fits perfectly.  Gonna use that without attribution.

131 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 18, 2011 01:15 PM (xmuv/)

Well said.

For all the talk about how much American parents suck, we've done pretty well compared to the rest of the world.  For the past thirty years my generation heard how we were going to be sucking Japanese cock because of how well they were scoring on tests.  Didn't materialize that way.

132 Interesting, there was a report not to long ago that Chinese boys are some of the most spoiled rotten kids on the planet. Apparently, do to the mandatory birth rates, they're all only children and the parents over indulge them.

And yeah, while giving kids an overdeveloped sense of accomplishment isn't good, I think setting them up to fail is worse. I'm not going to force my son to perfect a complex piece of music just so I can feel better about my parenting skills. That's ridiculous.

Instead, I've taught my son something more important: critical thinking (see next post) For example, he wants to build a model of the solar system. He quizzed me about the solar systems and then, on his next trip to the school library, checked out a book on the subject so he could research it. He is currently preparing a list of the items he will need to build his model.  He will be 6 in April. His classmates are still picking their noses and eating paste. Just saying.

133

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 18, 2011 01:15 PM (xmuv/)

What he said. This is what I was trying to say, when I kept talking about old episodes of  Punky Brewster and boy bands.

134

"Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up."

 We quit all the time. Hasn't negatively impacted us.

135 Finally, someone who gets it!

136 What do I want with Chinese kids?
Posted by: nickless at January 18, 2011 12:53 PM

Probably a side of rice, egg rolls and soy sauce.

Think of them as veal....

137 Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay.

Not nearly enough you heartless bitch.

Boy howdy do I remember that day when I announced that I was done with piano (It was in the middle of an "exercise" designed to frustrate me on a physical coordination level.)

Piano is a percussion instrument, after all.

Why the hell do we have "Piano Books" that don't include a lick of music BTW?

So weird.

My Mom was adamantly against it and insisted that I keep working for the remainder of my scheduled (and paid for) classes, recitals and lessons.

She never fucking manhandled me though.

I served my time, resentfully and won some trophies.

BFD.

I later came to enjoy playing music (poorly) on a piano and other instruments.

I even sing sometimes!

But the piano has always been and always will be a psychic lodestone for me.

I've sought and received some amazing tutelage on some basic technique from members of the CSO and the Santa Fe Opera.

Expert consensus seems to be that I am terrible and clunky with my rhythms and dynamics, except when I'm not.

138

For all the talk about how much American parents suck, we've done pretty well compared to the rest of the world.  For the past thirty years my generation heard how we were going to be sucking Japanese cock because of how well they were scoring on tests.  Didn't materialize that way.

That is because of the American environment of enterprise and creativity. For all their smarts, innovation is damn near not allowed in Asia. But don't worry, the Commeicrats are working to snuff that out too. :-(

139

Meh, Chinese Tiger Moms have nothing on Italian-American former DI Dads/Grandpas.

Unknown Jane's rules for raising yer kids: expose them to as much knowledge as possible (from algebra to Shakespeare to Bach to gardening); give them actual work to do so they learn responsibility, give them opportunities to learn to master themselves, and don't speak down to them unless they warrant it (and then explain to them why they warrant it).

Oh, and when in doubt, hurting their feelings (or their butts) is a parental duty; use it in all seriousness, but don't be afraid to do it -- your job is to be parent, not "friend".

140 Warden, You are a horrible parent. The joy children get in accomplishment pales beside the relief they will feel when you are ready to beat them and burn their toys for their failures. Fear will keep your children in line. Fear of this belt. Your sad devotion to that ancient method of parenting hasn't helped him master calculus, or given you the foresight to demand he sail around the world solo at age nine.

141 Has anyone posted this yet?

142

Someone brought up a good point elsewhere: have these girls ever actually failed anything?  Drama and sports and the like aren't necessarily important for socialization skills, but simply because you can lose a soccer match even if you are the best player on the team.  You can audition for a part and not get it, even if you recited Shakespear flawlessly.  I wonder if Ms. Chua isn't doing her children a disservice by controlling their every movement and activity, because while they may excel in certain areas, at some level they are 'playing it safe'. 

143 @42 It's winter. Let me have my fun.

144

You are a horrible parent. The joy children get in accomplishment pales beside the relief they will feel when you are ready to beat them and burn their toys for their failures.

Fear will keep your children in line. Fear of this belt.

Your sad devotion to that ancient method of parenting hasn't helped him master calculus, or given you the foresight to demand he sail around the world solo at age nine.

(cuts off Empire of Jeff's airway)

I find your lack of faith disturbing....

145 The only field(s) in which the USA is light years ahead of the Chinese is our military and our military-industrial complex . But now, as with the Clinton Administration, the Obama Administration wants to virtually turn the aerospace industry and its subsidiaries over to the Chinese, too, downsizing and shutting out Boeing Aircraft and Airbus to do so, if they get their way.  The Democrats can not be trusted to protect this country. They are that irrational and that dangerous.

146 Having posted that, I tend to think we could use a couple slightly-watered down Amy Chuas and fewer parents whose mantra is "self-esteem uber alles".

147 Enough of this bickering! Chua! Release him!

148 I'll bet birthdays are a blast at that house.  "Fun" is, apparently, a dirty word.  What's the sense in having all the crap a successful career can buy you if you don't know how to enjoy it?

149
The business of not letting the kid go to the toilet until she mastered a musical piece strikes me as being a little over the top.

And as other people have pointed out, while being able to work hard and stick to a task is extremely important in life, even a bigger part is being able to make sound, informed decisions - and stick by them. By making every decision for her daughters, Chua is denying them a key skill that they'll need in adult life.

150

Piano is a percussion instrument, after all.

Got that right...

151 Fascinating. I'm decidedly torn on Chu's philosophy.

On one hand, I'm always suspicious of people that are this certain they are right about something - and everyone else is wrong.

On the other hand ... I think maybe there's a kernel of truth to what she's saying.

Either way, I'm sending the link to my wife. My first child is arriving in a few months, and I'm already terrified of the 436 ways I can screw the kid up.

This gives me some new ammunition for self-doubt. I'll bet if my parents had made me master the violin, I'd have better self-esteem about being a Dad.

152 Here's a random thought: Is China ever gonna produce a Jimi Hendrix?

I'm guessing no.

As shitty as our education system is, America still produces a hell of a lot of innovative products.

I'm guessing our rebelliousness has something to do with it.

153

My first child is arriving in a few months, and I'm already terrified of the 436 ways I can screw the kid up.

You will screw up.  Accept that fact.  But remember that kids have a (mostly) short memory for your screw ups and love can cover an immense amount of screw-ups.  All parents make stupid mistakes but most kids turn okay or even awesome, in spite of it.

The best thing I ever did for myself as a parent, was to ignore everybody else's advice.

154 Educators DO know that, Ace.  It's our supposed betters -- the education-theory hucksters and their willing dupes in administration at all levels -- who don't.  But they're the boss, so we have to do what they say.

I learned reading and writing phonetically -- "I'll wield my shield in the field till you yield," that sort of thing -- but God forbid any teacher should try to teach that way today.  We WANT to.  We're not allowed.

155

This gives me some new ammunition for self-doubt. I'll bet if my parents had made me master the violin, I'd have better self-esteem about being a Dad.

If you have a little bit of time and money, then what's stopping you from learning at least the basics?  Forcing your kids to practice for hours on end on something is a lot less effective than if they see that Mom or Dad is willing to learn something new, and work at it, IMHO.

156 Posted by: PB

Congratulations.

Kids are God's greatest blessing. Don't worry. You'll do fine.

157 You will screw up.  Accept that fact.

Amen.

Just admit it when you do, forgive yourself and vow to do better.

158 Chua's tactics strike me as a little extreme.

Heh...

If the words "You can't make me." ever escaped my lips while addressing an ordered task from my parents, I would have worried about living to see the next Christmas, not how many presents I received. My parents usual model was, "If you want to quit fine, but you will do task x first. " Where x is some task that had stubbornly rebuffed me.

1. I knew they could and would make me, and didn't even consider the Lulu approach.
2. I actually did accomplish task x, eventually, *every*single*time*.
3. Task x was never the reason I gave up a hobby or interest. If I ultimately gave something up, it was for much better reasons than personal failure.

Lessons learned about "perseverance" as my step father would put it rank on the short list of the most valuable in my life. _{*flashback* "You see boy, you can do it" *teary eyes*}

159 There's a difference between being a strict parent and treating your kids like trash. Chua is hugging that line.

160 Newsflash:  since few of us speak any Chinese language, and the media is tighly regulated in China, what are the odds that we are only told good things about China?  Also the author is a New Yorker?  SHAM!

161

Late to the party, or evisceration of American parents, whichever. Does this crazy woman who is frankly bordering on what in other cases we’d term as child abuse (tell me, if you re-cast her as a tea party member, would the press still be lapping up her methods?) really have something in her way of parenting? I’d say a big resounding no. She’s creating great “worker bees” who can do tasks flawlessly but have no ability to think in ways that lead to innovation.

 

I work with kids being raised by this type of parent when I volunteer in the classroom. Yes, great they can spit out their math facts, but they are absolutely lost when they have to create something. Oh, they can reproduce a famous artistÂ’s work, no problem, but ask them to think up something themselves and they flounder.

 

Balance, really, in all things. Push kids, but let them have fun too. ItÂ’s in fun that creativity is sparked and from that creativity comes great things, great inventions.

162 Posted by: Alex at January 18, 2011 01:54 PM

^^ This ^^

If Amy can't get off her butt and join in -- ever heard of duets? -- then she's just another whiner who expects her kids to do something she couldn't be bothered to do.

163 Lulu got slapped!

164 This gives me some new ammunition for self-doubt. I'll bet if my parents had made me master the violin, I'd have better self-esteem about being a Dad.

Those could be the two whiniest sentences ever written in English.  Worry about self-esteem later, your first priority should be to order a paternity test.  Estrogen levels that high put your ability to father a child in serious doubt.

165

165 My parents and grandparents (and instructors) worked the "you can't make me" out very well -- and I used them as a model for my own kids.

Me as a kid (or my own kids now):"I don't want to check the horses/dogs' water and food right now; I want to go play with my friends/read a book/whatever...(and you can't make me; do it yourself)"

Them (me now): "true, we can't force you -- but then the animals might go without, and that is irresponsible and even perhaps cruel; you wanted them around and like riding them/hunting with them; if you want those things then you have to take care of them as they could die without care -- then you will not only have lost those things but have to bear the burden of being responsible for their loss and the suffering it entailed." (and while this is not verbatim, it's pretty damn close)

You go out and feed/water the critters...usually with a deep sense of guilt over even considering not to do so. 

This can work for everything from picking up your toys to doing your homework once the groundwork is laid

166 Math sucks, wanna skip class and smoke weed?

167

One thing no one is commenting on is the inherent racism of the Chinese mom philosophy. She won't "let" her kids be "less than number one" at everything.

The assumption is that compared to all those weak Westerners, of course her kids should be the best. If they're not, they're not working hard enough. Never mind that some of those Western kids are working their butts off too. It's a foregone conclusion that the Chinese kid is superior so it's just a matter of working harder to be number one. But we're the racist ones, that's right, I forgot.

I know Chinese and Korean moms with exactly that attitude. One of my Korean mom friends got upset at her 3-year-old son's swim teacher because her son wasn't the best in the class. If he's not the best, clearly he needs a better teacher who will push him harder. 

168 "I'll play The Little White Donkey for you, Mother, but first, you will blow me"

169 The larger critique is accurate -- too many Americans follow parenting and general life-advice from well-connected, high income ruling class types (mostly liberal).

Having your kids make friends at school is great -- if it's a good school with kids from good families. If it's a bad school then you don't want your kids to make friends there. The "skill" of friend-making is a bad thing if your kid is making friends with future criminals, bums, drop-outs, and losers.

The same thing for casual sex and recreational drug use. These mistakes are much easier to overcome if your family has money and connections. Rehab is very expensive.

Family money and connections function as a huge safety net for a kid. Many more mistakes can be made and recovered from.

170 Posted by: bobbo at January 18, 2011 02:33 PM

It's an equal and opposite mistake to ascribe excess virtues to the generic Chinese Mom.

Cranking out maladjusted performers is a recipe for a future social meltdown. What's the kid going to do when the world doesn't want/need any more 10 year-old prodigies?

I prefer little rat-bastard kids who are learning and enjoying the process. Going all prison-guard on them doesn't help. Encouraging independent thinking and exposing the kid to all the good things in the world is the way to go.

171 I agree with EmilyM. that Chua is treating her kid like trash.  There is no opportunity for that child to develop and perfect her own interests.  Maybe she would excel in an arena that would serve her in the future, an arena that the mother never gave much thought to. i.e. If she was forced to sit in front of the piano all day she wouldn't have dedicated any hours to drawing and would miss out on being a master portrait artist.  Chua's daughter certainly isn't learning patience, mercy, or proper prioritizing.  She's just learning to be the puppet of a perfectionist.

On the homeschool/social skills thing.  My pet peeve is the "proof in the pudding" homeschooling parent who attributes their kids' maturity to learning at home.  That sets the bar high for some of us who have chosen to homeschool because our kids' social skills were very poor and not being helped by immersion in a public school (asperger's). Some kids are weird because they're homeschooled, some are homeschooled because they're weird and the social dynamics of the average public school would chew them up and spit them out.

172

If I ever have grandchildren, some advice I will give my sons: turn off the TV, limit viewing of the TV and other electronics, let them play and use their imaginations, read books daily before bed and naptime---yes, naps!, set limits, give them chores,and try to keep them sort of on a schedule. I sound Chinese, but it worked.

A friend of mine, a type-A perfectionist, who married into an Asian family, had a son the same age as my boys. She had him in computer classes, etc and a regimented schedule before he started kindergarten. The child had no free time just to be a boy and ride his bike, skin his knee and make forts. I don't know if his schedule and expectations had anything to do with it or not, but he killed himself a few years ago. Very sad.

173 176 Not really -- I worked at a juvenile rehab place; some of the most lost kids were from well to do families.  If the parent's attitude is that throwing money at a problem will somehow fix it, then it's doubtful anything will get fixed (often it just gets worse).  As for the "good" school, "bad" school thing: the "good" (by this I guess you mean wealthy) are merely more capable of covering problems within their student body, much like the parents of those kids.  The only safeguard for your kids is to cultivate an ability to think and judge right from wrong for themselves and act accordingly on those.

174

Having your kids make friends at school is great -- if it's a good school with kids from good families. If it's a bad school then you don't want your kids to make friends there. The "skill" of friend-making is a bad thing if your kid is making friends with future criminals, bums, drop-outs, and losers.

Umm, yes and no. I went to a good prep school and had peers who were future (white collar) criminals. The other day I checked out the old San Jose "Jerk-The-Knee News" hometown news and chuckled when one of them was busted for misappropriating investment funds and sentenced to prison and a fine.

175

I've only read a few dozen posts and my own reaction will really seem against the flow here but DAMN, that woman is harsh! I wouldn't trade my own ma (who didn't spare the rod but again, DAMN, she didn't force us to do things we were physically incapable of) in for anyone in the world, especially this woman. Uff.

OK, back to work.

mac :]

176 My friend (her parents are "Nationalist Chinese" -Don't call some of them Taiwanese, I learned the hard way- who immigrated here and became citizens) linked me this article a few days ago.  Her husband thinks it's a bit of a joke, but she sees the article as dead serious.  She doesn't have a lot of contact with her family because her mom was like this; which is kinda a shame because she really loves her dad and he's actually a really cool guy.

There were also a few Chinese families in the neighborhood growing up.  The one family's kids seem well adjusted, but the other's kids all burned out shortly after getting into college and went completely off the rails out of the direct constant influence of their parents.  The second family's kids were also good at solving linear problems, but couldn't dynamically think their way out of a paper bag if their lives depended upon it.

So I guess it all boils down to just HOW Chinese Mom the Chinese mom goes on the kid.

177 "Kids who spend too much time with their friends develop peer dependence which delays the process of internalizing values. They just follow the values of whatever peer group they happen to be in."

In other words, they become leftists.

178 Balance, really, in all things. Push kids, but let them have fun too. ItÂ’s in fun that creativity is sparked and from that creativity comes great things, great inventions.


I love the anecdotal 'I work with kids raised by this parenting method I disagree with and they are all screwed up' which applies causality that isn't there.

I think the far bigger problem with our youth is they give up too easily on difficult or long and arduous tasks, not that they aren't having enough fun.

Well first I think you fail to subdivide the event. It actually has two parts. 1 the child initially fails and wishes to give up. 2. The child becomes violently insubordinate. Responses to both situations is well within acceptable parenting.


Like I said in my family, it simply was not acceptable to quit due to failure. You say this is borderline abuse? The child wanted to quit a task. Accepting failure on difficult tasks makes failing anything hard the standard. The parent didn't want the child to quit in failure. The child was given the task to continue to attempt and the child responded by

1. Refusing
When that didn't work the child escalated to.
2. Violently protesting.
When that didn't work the child escalated to.
3. Destroying objects.

This is an attempt by the child to gain control, using a temper tantrum, to avoid doing something they don't want to do. Allowing children to control situations using tantrums sets tantrums as the acceptable standard. The response to the temper tantrum was more than measured and involved only loss of privileges and impounding and threatened loss of toys. Like I said in my family I would have gotten paddled at step 1, and personally I still think it's justified. 

So what we have here is a parent who would not allow a child to quit in failure. A child who protested and escalated to violence. A parent who used moderate discipline to correct the insubordination.

The child then complies; overcomes the difficulty, then gains both confidence in their own ability to overcome, and the enjoyment of having accomplished something difficult. You want to call ALL children raised using this method drones. Am I a drone?

For my own introspection, also anecdotal, I observe a number of things about who I was when I was young.
1. I was lazy
2. I became quickly discouraged if I didn't see immediate results from my efforts.

After I was forced to do some things against my own will and succeeded, my outlook changed. I become more interested in more things because I knew I could accomplish if I kept trying. And I was able to be more successful at the endeavors of my life.

179 she didn't force us to do things we were physically incapable of

You didn't read the full article. Shortly after Lulu complied, she did learn to play the piece correctly and goes on to perform it in a recital. That is a far cry from physically incapable.

180 I don't think you can ignore the children's personalities, either.  A number of commenters have said that Tiger Moms keep their children from being creative artist-types.

Not everyone would be a great artist, actor, photographer, if only Mom or Dad had eased off a little.  Some people just aren't creative.

I homeschool/homeschooled my three sons.  Oldest is brilliant in math. Calculus as an 8th grader brilliant in math.  He can solve any puzzle, see any pattern, but he can not make up a puzzle or a pattern of his own.  That's just him, and no amount of tough, or permissive, or perfect parenting would have made him less mathematical or more creative.

Some kids need  drill sergeants, and some kids need kumbaya-singers, and pretending that all kids respond identically to identical parenting styles is stupid.

181 I want the mother of my children to be South Korean. Korean women rule (aside from Margaret Cho...)

182 Chua doesn't live in NYC, but in New Haven, CT, where she and her husband Jed Rubenfeld are both professors at Yale Law School.

183

A number of commenters have said that Tiger Moms keep their children from being creative artist-types.

It isn't so much that, as it is that the children get no praise and support whatsoever. I am really surprised they aren't drinking the Drano and cutting their wrists yet. Or maybe they are....

184 The daughter writes a response to the criticism of her mom....

http://tinyurl.com/4vn36sy

185 There is no opportunity for that child to develop and perfect her own interests.

That particular item is not explained. Whether Lulu decided she wanted to learn piano initially or Chua decided she would. But I think the lesson is more appropriate either way.

Again I don't think you bothered to click through. The point of this example was. Most rewarding interests are not enjoyable until you get good at them. Getting good at them takes effort. Children are adverse at expending effort when they do not immediately see results. Without a parent to make them soldier on; This leads them to try and quit rewarding endeavor after rewarding endeavor when initial efforts don't pan out.

The serial quitters of western society; Whose parents never forced them to stick with something they started and see it through. Who go through life looking for immediate rewards for minimal effort. Who never develop any interest beyond gossip, gadgets, an simple entertainment.

186

I become more interested in more things because I knew I could accomplish if I kept trying.

I think this is key--the parent showing you that you could accomplish the task. As opposed to just berating the child until s/he is reduced to tears. I fear that Amy Chua is more of the latter than the former.

187 I think this is key--the parent showing you that you could accomplish the task. As opposed to just berating the child until s/he is reduced to tears. I fear that Amy Chua is more of the latter than the former.

Well Lulu does go on to perform the piece in a recital, and receives many accolades. Ultimately success was had and possible, where failure would have been accepted, detrimentally so in my opinion, by many here. Somtimes the path to success, the path to true rewards, is extremely unpleasant and contains real hardships. Also a lesson not lost here.

188 I think the key phrase is "when I was trying my best you didn't throw it back in my face".  I'm not in favor of forcing kids to play an instrument they don't want or anything of that sort -- but I am in favor of pushing them to do their best and attempting excellence in many things.

189 Nobody can tell you how to be a parent, especially if they're too busy arguing about how there are only two choices, spoiling or pounding into compliance.

It's all bullshit. You've got a quadrillion freaking neurons adjusting to every little assumption, thought, experience, sight, smell, sound and sensation, and you're expected to react the same as everyone else? Parents and children learn each other, sometimes well, sometimes not well.

You need to learn the child as much as teach them, because you can't teach them without learning how they react to their teaching. Some kids react well to discipline, some don't. Some overcome that, some don't. If you don't adapt to them, they end up neurotic or bitter or running away.

The "you have to do it my way" crowd pisses me off, at least in this area of life.

190 but I am in favor of pushing them to do their best and attempting excellence in many things.
It is unclear if the initial decision to pursue the piano is Lulu or Amy.
Part of the point here, is that to get the absolute best effort from a child, you will have to, at least on occasion, have to push them beyond where they want to quit.

191

Ah, Mike the Moose(c) sets me straight about the physical incapabilities of the child. Many thanks. Still, harsh training methods. My own mom learned quickly on that I get bored of things very quickly, whether I'm good at them or not (still do - only three things have kept my interest for longer than a year: Jesus, Mr. macbrooks and writing), and I shudder to think of how my life would've been like under this "perfect" mother.

mac :]

192 This skill set is not taught hair extensions suppliers formally, but it is imparted through arduous experiences. These are human hair manufacturersexactly the kinds of difficult experiences Chua hair manufacturers shelters her children from by making them rush home to hit the homework table.

193 193 There is no opportunity for that child to develop and perfect her own interests.

Sorry long, but since you asked

I can only speak from personal experience here, but I had a desire to draw from the time I could pick up a pencil and I drew on any kind of paper I could get a hand on my mom would take me to art galleries etc, but I never took a class.  When I got some babysitting money at 13 was the first time I bought an actual sketchbook.  I also did the same with guitar, purchased on my own with babysitting money.  I am accomplished in both of these areas, because I had the inner desire and curiosity.  I can't help but think it's inborn.

Fast forward to my children.  I have no interest in bugs or birds or dragons, but my daughter developed an obsessive interest early.  By the time she was three she could name every bird or bug (or flower) she came in contact with.  Now she draws dragons.  I'm so sick of dragons I could scream, but I can't deny her talent.  The drawings are beautiful and dynamic...she even creates stories for them and has taught herself computer animation in order to watch them move in three dimensions.  My son bores me to tears talking about electronics and light sabers, and is scoring post high school in science on his achievement tests.  I think he's doing pretty well for being 11.  She's 13. 

I think children should have the door open to be the people they were created to be, that we need to dispense with the elitism of pushing the arts over other accomplishments, and they need to know early that who they are does not come from a metaphorical bull whip wielded by an overbearing mother who has a competitive desire to prove her worth by living vicariously through her kids.  That mother doesn't even have to be interested in what her kids are as long as she encourages them to never give up on what they love.

194 Sorry long, but since you asked
can only speak from personal experience here,

Well it looks like a sort of single case type experience. Some children are motivated to zealously pursue interests. Others are not. Many in my various stretches of family fall or fell into category 2. Some will naturally achieve in many areas, some will achieve modestly in only a few, some will fail to achieve in all. I think that how you simply stay out of the way of a born overachiever, which is what you are describing, is a much different task than motivating a mediocre or under achiever to become what they could be. In some personal cases, some true dreads of my youthful years, to include writing, have become not only strengths, but rewarding enjoyable activities thanks to some "overbearing" parents. Parents that did not wait for me to magically blossom, and wouldn't let my own malaise (Jimmeh!) of youth to negatively impact who I could be in adult life. I owe much of my happiness today to those overbearing parents, who proved unequivocally, that I really could do anything I set my mind to, anything I was willing to expend the effort to do, not just that which came easy. The bottom line of MY personal experience is.
1. I was a no account loser who couldn't care less about school or anything else other than video games, TV, and playing around with friends.
2. My parents used various forms of coercion to correct my attitude. Including coming down on me like a brick delivery for new cathedral construction.
3. I eventually developed real interests, real talents, got decent grades, went on to graduate from the USNA served as a Naval Officer, and later became an engineer in private employment.

Thanks to step 2 I have.
1. An engaging job that pays good money.
2. Talents and life skills that are rewarding as they are useful.
3. More hobbies, including that dreaded writing, than I have time.

I look at others who never did get that "overbearing" intervention, some of my childhood friends, and I reflect on how full my life is today, and how empty it could have been; That 10 or so years of "overbearing" parents is just a drop in the bucket to how much fun, and how many of life's rewards I am able to reap today. I say THANK GOD! for my "overbearing" parents.

195 It isn't so much that, as it is that the children get no praise and support whatsoever. I am really surprised they aren't drinking the Drano and cutting their wrists yet. Or maybe they are....

This thread is dead and no one's going to read this, but I'm going to say this anyway. My mother's methods of raising us was similar to Chua's and as I said above, my mother is Chinese. I can't remember her ever praising or supporting anything I ever did since I was maybe 5 or 6 years old. Yet, despite that, I'm not suicidal or a cutter. I like to think I'm pretty well adjusted. Mostly.

196 Rush had a great discussion about this on his show last week, Friday: ChiCom Mom Story Sparks Debate -- Do the Chinese know how to raise successful children?

197 MiketheMoose

I think your opinions are sound.  I just think parents should find something that interests their kid, something that they gravitate towards and help them there.

198

How can Professor Tiger-Mom teach Yale Law, and be Super-Helicopter Mom at the same time? I'm guessing that she got tenure, then went on permanent paid sabbatical. Helicopter Parenting her daughters on Yale's dime, then writing a book about it to make even more money. America! What a country!

Now if she could teach her daughters to drive competently, that would be an achievement for Chinese Tiger Mom.

Little Known Fact: Rocky Balboa Defeated Clubber Lang because he recovered the Eye Of The Tiger Mom that he had once lost.

199 Achieving personal growth is essential for your own sense of happiness.

200 Thank you for your sharing.

201 Hi, good post, and awesome weblog you have here!
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