November 01, 2011

"Wide Receiver" Wasn't Gunwalking Like Fast and Furious Is Gunwalking
— Ace

Sheryl Aktinson, one of the only major media reporters even covering Fast and Furious, alleged that "Wide Receiver," a Bush era program, was a "gunwalking" program in the same sense that Fast and Furious was.

But was it?

Confederate Yankee, Bob Owens, notes that Wide Receiver actually involved surveillance -- or at least attempted surveillance. It's just that the surveillance failed.

In Operation Wide Receiver, Tucson agents allowed the sales of more than 500 firearms to known straw purchasers. Like Gunrunner/Fast and Furious, the operation apparently backfired.

Some firearms in Wide Receiver were equipped with RFID tracking devices. In Wide Receiver, it seems the illegal purchasers seemed more than slightly knowledgeable of the ATF and how to take their aerial and electronic tracking procedures down.

Knowing the time aloft numbers for virtually all planes used in government surveillance, the buyers had a simple method of getting their purchases across the border undetected. They simply drove four-hour loops around the area.

As surveillance planes were forced to return to base for refueling, the smugglers simply turned and sprinted their cargo across the border.

The RFID tags also turned out to be problematic.

Rather than making large enough holes for the tags to be laid out inside weapons, agents force-fit them into the rifles.

That cramming caused the antennae to be folded, reducing the effective range of the tags. And an already short battery life (36-48 hours maximum) meant that should purchasers allow the firearms to sit, the tracking devices eliminated themselves.

In addition, Wide Receiver was conducted in cooperation with the Mexican authorities -- not kept secret from them, as a rogue American agency conducted a murderous covert operation in a neighboring sovereign country.

Now, Wide Receiver failed. It all seems like a pretty dumb operation in hindsight. But you can see how it could have been predicted to work -- if the surveillance works, you've nabbed your bad guys.

In Fast and Furious, there was no surveillance.

So what was the goal?

In Wide Receiver, the guns "walked" without surveillance due to technical failure of the RFID devices and the gun-runners outwitting the ATF.

Someone in the administration please tell me a story wherein Fast and Furious was also a botch, a failure -- rather than having proceeded as planned.

I don't want to think that -- that seems a little farfetched -- but unless the administration can explain how their plan to let 2000+ guns "walk" into Mexico (without a head's up for Mexican law enforcement) accidentally became a failure, rather than proceeded according to plan, there are going to be serious suspicions about our government's actual motive.

Posted by: Ace at 12:31 PM | Comments (180)
Post contains 459 words, total size 3 kb.

1 In other news, my ass hurts  -297.05 (-2.48%)

Posted by: DJIA at November 01, 2011 12:32 PM (GTbGH)

2 Here, let me feel your pain.

Posted by: Bill Clinton at November 01, 2011 12:34 PM (ieDPL)

3 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.
Watergate did not have a body count.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 12:36 PM (8y9MW)

4 SEE....It's Bushes fault.........

Posted by: Hey You! at November 01, 2011 12:36 PM (XGLac)

5

So to summarize. the Bush admin tried something that wasn't very effective and ended it.

The SCOAMF admin took a bad idea, then doubled down and put the foot to the floor.

 

You know, I am sensing a pattern here......

Posted by: Minnfidel at November 01, 2011 12:37 PM (6SstQ)

6 I still maintain that this whole thing was designed to fail to provide ammunition for gun control. No other explanation fits.

I want to see somebody go to jail.

Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 12:37 PM (YdQQY)

7 I forgot to mention.....Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure

Posted by: Hey You! at November 01, 2011 12:37 PM (XGLac)

8 How is this a story? No rocks with racial epithets here.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at November 01, 2011 12:38 PM (ieDPL)

9 I'm still waiting for the AoS Poetry Slam thread in remembrance of Street Poet, the OWS junkie who just died in Oklahoma City. One Percent throws stones Words like rocks. Hey, you got rocks? Man, I'll suck yo diiiiiick

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at November 01, 2011 12:38 PM (l9zgN)

10 I don't want to think that -- that seems a little farfetched

Ace, why does this still seem farfetched to you?  What other possible motive- explained by their actions- seems less far fetched?

Seriously- you "jumped" on Cain for nebulous allegations about sexual misconduct which may or may not have happened- and rumors of more, (keep reading, this isn't bashing you for that, I promise ), but here you have actual evidence that shows that the guns were allowed to walk with no surveillance.  There has only been one proposed end-game (and that by outside viewers, as the Administration is keeping mum on this one), and that seems backed up by the SCOAMF's own words- about doing things "under the radar" to enact gun control.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 12:39 PM (8y9MW)

11 If you don't like the Obama version, you're racist.

Posted by: © Sponge at November 01, 2011 12:39 PM (UK9cE)

12 >>>there are going to be serious suspicions about our government's actual motive. No there won't.

Posted by: Ministry of Truth at November 01, 2011 12:40 PM (tazG1)

13 So there I was, cooling my ass indoors in Nevada, and the next thing you know I've got some tattooed freak rubbing me down with oil above a Tijuana taco joint. True story!

Posted by: Bushmaster rifles at November 01, 2011 12:41 PM (LEcV+)

14 Well, the only thesis I can come up with was the Bush Admin might have been FKD up too. No quite as, but FKD up none the less.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at November 01, 2011 12:41 PM (ZDUD4)

15
"Cramming the antennae"

Posted by: Dr. Varno at November 01, 2011 12:42 PM (QMtmy)

16 One. It's Sharyl Attkisson.

Two. It's gun control. It's always been gun control.

Posted by: Ken at November 01, 2011 12:42 PM (7yb9x)

17 And so we've got the meme. F&F just like Wide Receiver, Bush started it, so that means no story. And that will be the party line from here on out.

Posted by: joncelli at November 01, 2011 12:43 PM (RD7QR)

18 >>>Ace, why does this still seem farfetched to you? What other possible motive- explained by their actions- seems less far fetched? Well, the part where a group of people decides to handmaiden a bunch of murders in order to blame it on a political movement they don't like and take away Americans' rights. Look, if you don't have a teensy-tiny little problem with that... well, I don't know what to say. You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

Posted by: ace at November 01, 2011 12:43 PM (nj1bB)

19 Hey.. the Obama administration shows it's much smarter than the Bush admin.

Since they knew the RFID chips would fail and the Mexicans could outsmart the ATF recon aircraft, they just didn't bother!

C'mon.. give some credit where credit is due!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 01, 2011 12:44 PM (f9c2L)

20 Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at November 01, 2011 04:41 PM (ZDUD4)

Actually, based on what I've seen about WR, I don't have a problem with its intent.  It looks like the operation did not work as intended, but I can at least see that it was intended to do something good.

On the other hand, F&F cannot have ever been intended to do something good (at least, not by any Conservative's definition), because if it were, they would have operated differently.  At the very least they would have clued in the Mexican government.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 12:45 PM (8y9MW)

21 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: Alte Schule at November 01, 2011 12:45 PM (MLJu8)

22 17 And so we've got the meme. F&F just like Wide Receiver, Bush started it, so that means no story. And that will be the party line from here on out.

 No that means the ism's will start reporting a bit on the story now saying it was started by Bush. That's probably the only thing we will hear. I have my suspicions that Issa has an "ace" up his sleeve and is waiting to spring the trap.

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at November 01, 2011 12:45 PM (5Wl/f)

23 I really don't know why Obama is keeping this alive for so long. If Holder is still around into next year this will be a campaign discussion. His bunker mentality of continually sweeping this further and further beneath the carpet is giving it the legs it needs to make it into election season. If Issa has half a brain he is playing his schedule so if a major action by committee is possible it happens right after the Aug recess next year.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 12:46 PM (0q2P7)

24 Look, if you don't have a teensy-tiny little problem with that... well, I don't know what to say. You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies. Posted by: ace at November 01, 2011 04:43 PM (nj1bB) The only mitigating possibility that I can think of is that they had somebody on the inside of the organizations to which they sold the guns who were going to track them once they crossed the border, and they don't want to blow their sources. That would remove this from the realm of Colossal Mistake/Big Conspiracy.

Posted by: joncelli at November 01, 2011 12:47 PM (RD7QR)

25 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) I hear ya AG. Something about the road to hell and intent rings in my ears. Different motivations, identical outcomes.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at November 01, 2011 12:47 PM (ZDUD4)

26 Cheryl Atkinson is a whore and a Republican shill who will do anything for notoriety. All of her work is plagiarized, and she has links to the Tea Party and to the Nazi party.

Posted by: The MBM at November 01, 2011 12:48 PM (3vSLn)

27

Cool.  Poetry Slam!  Ok....... Here is what I got:

The boy stood on the burning deck,
His feet were full of blisters,
He had three fingers up his arse,
The rest were up his ..............


 

 

Posted by: Osama bin Truck Monkey, TEArrorist Son of a Bitch at November 01, 2011 12:48 PM (jucos)

28 1 In other news, my ass hurts  -297.05 (-2.48%)

Do you know what it's like to be f*** up the a** when you don't want it?

Posted by: My retirement fund at November 01, 2011 12:48 PM (VZ10+)

29 Posted by: Osama bin Truck Monkey, Sisters?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at November 01, 2011 12:49 PM (ZDUD4)

30 In Fast and Furious, there was no surveillance.

It was funding.  Sheesh, we were trying to save Uncle Sam a few bucks.

You're welcome.

Posted by: The BATF at November 01, 2011 12:50 PM (QKKT0)

31 Thanks for the mention, Ace. As far as it goes, everything I've read thus far suggests that Operation Fast and Furious--which is one of ten gun-walking plots in five cities--was created with the express intend of transferring firearms from dealers to criminals in Mexico and the U.S. The overwhelming majority of weapons sold read from a "Who's who" list of firearms that President Obama, AG Holder, SS Clinton,  and other top Democrats have long wanted to ban, despite the complete impracticality of some of the weapons for cartel use.

It is not exaggeration to say that we're looking at a possible RICO prosecution, accessory to murder charges (in two countries), felony violations of the Arms Export Control Act, perjury, obstruction of justice, and dozens or hundreds of other counts.

SCOAMF has refused to appoint an independent counsel because all available evidence indicates that the plot hatched at the highest levels of the Obama government.

If I am reading the tea leaves correctly, there is a decent chance that enough evidence exists to force an impeachment trial of the President in 2012, and felony criminal charges for many involved, including Holder, Napolitano, and other top officials.

Posted by: Bob Owens at November 01, 2011 12:50 PM (gAi9Z)

32 You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

I have to disagree ace. This ceased to look like a "conspiracy" long ago. The evidence shows that they cooked up this scheme and actually put it into play. At that point it is no longer a conspiracy and becomes an active and illegal plot.

And there is no other possible motive for why they ran this the way they did.

Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 12:50 PM (YdQQY)

33 You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

Not really.  I was a skeptic at first, too.  The problem is that there are indications that this is a gun-control operation (as in: wanting to assert more), and no evidence that this had any benign motive.

Now, I don't think they 'wanted' Americans murdered- I'm not sure they thought that far ahead.  But I am beginning to believe that they thought, "Hey, we want fewer guns, but those wingnuts won't let us restrict them anymore.  I've got an idea, let's show that guns are getting across into Mexico and exacerbating the Cartel problem there.  Wait, they aren't actually doing that?  Well, let's let them do that, then."

Find me another rational explanation.  Well, suggest one.  What could they have hoped to accomplish with this tactic (letting guns walk without surveillance and without Mexican cooperation)?  If you can't think of one, maybe the one you can think of- no matter how distasteful or 'far-fetched' is the right one.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 12:50 PM (8y9MW)

34

Which candidate for President will protect our Southern borders, while respecting the 2nd Amendment?

Not Romney. He still sux.

Posted by: Live Free Or Die at November 01, 2011 12:51 PM (W30Tb)

35 I still enjoyed the hell out of Hillary throwing those asshats under the bus. Doing International shit without the state dept. blessing is called a felony. Unless they got the blessing some where else. Who I wonder? Who?

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at November 01, 2011 12:52 PM (ZDUD4)

36 LOL, I see Confederate Yankee beat me in there.

Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 12:52 PM (YdQQY)

37 Look, if you don't have a teensy-tiny little problem with that... well, I don't know what to say. You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

Add me to the list, then.  You can only have so many data points before the trend becomes bloody obvious.  And I've never been one to go any further than blaming gross incompetence, either...but at this point, either these idiots are so stupid they need an army of handlers to dress themselves in the morning, or they're doing this crap on purpose.  The former couldn't have gotten this far.

We aren't quite to Holmes' maxim just yet, but the 'probably just incompetence' conclusion is ringing increasingly hollow.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at November 01, 2011 12:53 PM (GBXon)

38 I'm not a big conspiracy nut, except for the "moon landing", but I can't see any other valid purpose for this operation. The whole thing doesn't make sense.

Posted by: Dr Spank at November 01, 2011 12:53 PM (L8TIZ)

39 The only mitigating possibility that I can think of is that they had somebody on the inside of the organizations to which they sold the guns who were going to track them once they crossed the border, and they don't want to blow their sources.

But why wouldn't they at least have briefed Congress in that case?  Even off the record?

I mean, I guess I can sort of see that if I squint real hard, but that seems no less far-fetched, based on present evidence, than the "Big Conspiracy."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 12:53 PM (8y9MW)

40 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 12:54 PM (fyOgS)

41 You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

It's either that or terminal levels of stupidity. Srsly: If they thought this was a good idea, how do they remember to breath? I hate big conspiracy too, but, if this problem (drug cartels, illegal smuggling) got assigned at the High School level, and a students answer was F&F, I'd append a third F to the title. 

That's what you are expecting me to accept to dismiss the Big C. That the administration couldn't be as competent as the *average* high school student.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 12:54 PM (0q2P7)

42 First of all, as Ken pointed out, it's Sharryl Atkisson. Sheryl Atkinson, according to LinkedIn, is an Engagement Manager at PlumChoice in Boston. 11 If you don't like the Obama version, you're racist. Posted by: © Sponge at November 01, 2011 04:39 PM (UK9cE) Secondly, *what* was the "Obama version" of the motive behind allowing the guns to be delivered to Narco-terrorists unserveiled without even letting the Mexican government know?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 12:54 PM (bxiXv)

43 Look, it's not like there are entire socio-economic philosophies or even religions that have been historically hell-bent on dismantling, disrupting, or even destroying Western civilization or American ideals. 

That's just crazy talk.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at November 01, 2011 12:54 PM (8JpQH)

44 But why wouldn't they at least have briefed Congress in that case? Even off the record? I mean, I guess I can sort of see that if I squint real hard, but that seems no less far-fetched, based on present evidence, than the "Big Conspiracy." Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 04:53 PM (8y9MW) Yeah, and it rests on the assumption that they had enough sources to track all the guns, which seems pretty unlikely, given the nature of the cartels. I'm just throwing stuff out there.

Posted by: joncelli at November 01, 2011 12:57 PM (RD7QR)

45 If a republican even mentions the 'I' word they will be run out of town on the racist rails.  No way in hell Mocha Jesus or Stedman has ANY scandal touch them in ANY way.  Now, that being said, there will be some underlings that will have a tough year in 2012.  They will be pardoned in Jan 2013 before Barry get's on the helicopter to catch the plane to Indonesia.

Posted by: Osama bin Truck Monkey, TEArrorist Son of a Bitch at November 01, 2011 12:57 PM (jucos)

46 It doesn't matter if the story is true or not.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at November 01, 2011 12:57 PM (ieDPL)

Posted by: Erin Holdsworth at November 01, 2011 12:58 PM (Y+DPZ)

48 I almost forgot to mention that as of today, I'm "Confederate Yankee" no more. While the site will still exist as an archive, I've now blogging at bob-owens.com.

Posted by: Bob Owens at November 01, 2011 12:58 PM (gAi9Z)

49 without even letting the Mexican government know?

Cause Mexican law enforcement is corrupt. They might have told the Cartels that the ATF was supplying the guns. Geeze what are you thinking if they would have known that they would have tripled the order.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 12:58 PM (0q2P7)

50 nope, brain dead libs have their defense...and it is airtight...bush did it too. therefore, it's all good and nothing is bad.

Posted by: joeindc44 at November 01, 2011 01:00 PM (QxSug)

51 47 O/T - I'm pretty sure some morons have reported that this happened to them; Upon waking Saturday, the woman reported to police the envelope containing the cash missing and her buttocks sore. She told police she did not remember what happened. Posted by: Erin Holdsworth at November 01, 2011 04:58 PM (Y+DPZ) I hate it when that happens.

Posted by: Joy Behar at November 01, 2011 01:00 PM (RD7QR)

52 had enough sources to track all the guns

Because some embedded NOC source, systematically checking SNs wouldn't be fishy and draw suspicion.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:01 PM (0q2P7)

53 Posted by: joncelli at November 01, 2011 04:57 PM (RD7QR)

I'm trying to remain objective, because (like Ace) I really don't like the idea that this is some gov't run conspiracy.  On the other hand, I can't find any evidence that suggest otherwise.

Add to the evidence we do that that a) Obama himself mentioned getting more gun control "under the radar," and b) Dianne Feinstein (I think) saying today that the "problem" was a lack of gun control- that it's too easy to buy guns.  I start to get a unified message from this that "Guns: BAD!"

I mean, it's one thing never to assume malice where ignorance will suffice, but mere ignorance no longer suffices, here.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:01 PM (8y9MW)

54 49 True enough.If you can't trust their LE community,you DON'T do the operation.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:01 PM (fyOgS)

55 Well, the part where a group of people decides to handmaiden a bunch of murders in order to blame it on a political movement they don't like and take away Americans' rights.

Look, if you don't have a teensy-tiny little problem with that... well, I don't know what to say. You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

Posted by: ace at November 01, 2011 04:43 PM (nj1bB)

Well Ace, the following are facts:

-There's a group of people involved (BATF, Justice, CIA, etc)

-They made decisions (This operation was planned and approved)

-There are murders (Border agents)

-There is a political movement they don't like (2nd amendment advocates)

-They (O admin) have used Mexican violence to smear this political movement (though their facts were at the time disproven)

-They want to take away the rights (2nd amendment)

The only thing in question is what motivated the people. Like you, I can't read minds, but the only explanations are wildly incompetant and sinister. I don't see one more likely than the other.

Posted by: Randy M at November 01, 2011 01:01 PM (vI8R6)

56

Pish.  Gunwalker, scrumwalker....Herman Cain fondled some chicks' tittays!  Look!

Posted by: Jaws at November 01, 2011 01:01 PM (4I3Uo)

57 F&F just like Wide Receiver, Bush started it, so that means no story.

Right up until Holder gets extradited to Mexico.

Posted by: toby928© at November 01, 2011 01:02 PM (GTbGH)

58 Cause Mexican law enforcement is corrupt.

While that's true, I don't know that it would have led to any real problems with the operation.  Calderon really doesn't like the fact that the Cartels are standing up to him, directly.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:02 PM (8y9MW)

59 53 Yep,the fact that the administration includes a bunch of Marxists and "revolutionaries" also makes it more likely.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:02 PM (fyOgS)

60 Eh, sorry for the crappy formating.

Posted by: Randy M at November 01, 2011 01:02 PM (vI8R6)

61 Because some embedded NOC source, systematically checking SNs wouldn't be fishy and draw suspicion. Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 05:01 PM (0q2P7) I hear you. I didn't say it was a GOOD explanation, just the only one that occurred to me.

Posted by: joncelli at November 01, 2011 01:02 PM (RD7QR)

62 I'm trying to remain objective, because (like Ace) I really don't like the idea that this is some gov't run conspiracy.

Like's got nothin' to do with it.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at November 01, 2011 01:03 PM (GBXon)

63 O/T - I'm pretty sure some morons have reported that this happened to them;

Upon waking Saturday, the woman reported to police the envelope containing the cash missing and her buttocks sore. She told police she did not remember what happened.

Posted by: Erin Holdsworth
.........
No.. you're way off.  Usually, it's a Sunday!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at November 01, 2011 01:03 PM (f9c2L)

64 Well, the part where a group of people decides to handmaiden a bunch of murders in order to blame it on a political movement they don't like and take away Americans' rights.

Look, if you don't have a teensy-tiny little problem with that... well, I don't know what to say. You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies.

Posted by: ace at November 01, 2011 04:43 PM (nj1bB)

Well, Hillary was pumping big time for that meme of 90% of cartel guns being legally purchased in the U.S. She didn't have any numbers at the time and needed some. Obama also made a comment to the Sarah Brady bunch to the effect  he was working on some gun control efforts under the radar.  Offers a bit of context. 

Posted by: long toss at November 01, 2011 01:03 PM (sVqjS)

65 Like's got nothin' to do with it.

Yeah, I know.  And my cynicism is definitely winning, here.  It just freaks me out (Orwellian Nightmare for real, here) to think our Gov't would do this on purpose to limit my freedoms.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:05 PM (8y9MW)

66 I don't know if the morons have scene this clip but it made me laugh.  I needed that today.

Stephen Colbert as Che down at OWS.  I like the chick's name, Ketchup.

Via The Blaze

http://tinyurl.com/6c9sryc

Posted by: mpfs at November 01, 2011 01:05 PM (iYbLN)

67 Secondly, *what* was the "Obama version" of the motive behind allowing the guns to be delivered to Narco-terrorists unserveiled without even letting the Mexican government know?

Easily explained by the corruption of the Mexican government or fears that they wouldn't cooperate.  It's not exactly an unreasonable suspicion that the cartels would've gotten tipped off had they notified the Mexican authorities.

I still maintain that this operation was nothing more than a incompetently overseen clusterfuck by an incompetent clusterfuck of an administration.

They likely told themselves that "Hey, they nabbed a whole bunch of guys using similar tactics before, let's do it again, only bigger."  They probably assumed that by letting the guns walk to the cartels, they could not only nail the traffickers on this side of the border, but could build an expansive case against the cartels in the process.

It was stupid, but they had a precedent, and bureaucrats aren't known for innovative thinking.

After observing the incompetence of the Obama administration for the last 3 years, it puzzles me that people would assume that a grand conspiracy was responsible for the fuckup.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 01:05 PM (SY2Kh)

68 Secondly, *what* was the "Obama version" of the motive behind allowing the guns to be delivered to Narco-terrorists unserveiled without even letting the Mexican government know?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 04:54 PM (bxiXv)



The Obama version of Bush's "Wide Receiver."  I thought that was pretty easy to determine.

It was a failed operation and abandoned.  Like someone said earlier, Obama doubled down on it and ramped it up.

Posted by: © Sponge at November 01, 2011 01:05 PM (UK9cE)

69 While that's true, I don't know that it would have led to any real problems with the operation.

Well there would've had to have been a way for the operation to work before Mexican law enforcement corruption could be a problem but that is all irrelevant. That is the excuse the admin will use.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:07 PM (0q2P7)

70 scene = seen

Posted by: mpfs at November 01, 2011 01:09 PM (iYbLN)

71 It was a failed operation and abandoned.  Like someone said earlier, Obama doubled down on it and ramped it up.


And modified it so that it had no chance of success.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:09 PM (0q2P7)

72 With more information the motives might become clearer.I am not a conspiracy guy,never have been.I don't trust this administration at all,however.Like I said,it is filled with problematic individuals from the top down.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:10 PM (fyOgS)

73 I mean, it's one thing never to assume malice where ignorance will suffice, but mere ignorance no longer suffices, here. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 05:01 PM (8y9MW) The alternative is to believe that college-educated career bureaucrats engaged in a multi-year criminal conspiracy, with foreknowledge that it would result in innocent deaths (see "omelet" comments), and punished agents who tried to counteract or reveal the plot... all because they were "not very bright." "I slipped and stuck my 2000 guns into Mexico." Look, *that* much incompetence is no better than "conspiracy," and it's actually still a criminal conspiracy, just a dumber one. The "pitting the Sinoloas against the Zetas" hypothesis isn't any better, especially since Hillary's state department was arming the Zetas. I have asked form the beginning for a plausible alternative explanation that wasn't as bad or worse than the "push for more gun control" hypothesis, which by the way IS WHAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY DOING, see Holder, Schumer, Feinstein, Clinton, et al. Seriously, if what is actually happening is implausible, too freakin' bad, it's happening anyway.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 01:10 PM (bxiXv)

74 Look for all MSM mentions of Operation F&F to refer to it as a "Bush era gunwalking program" with no mention of the distinctions in how it was handled under Bush vs under Obama (no attempted surveillance, no knowledge or consent from Mexican govt., thousands of guns to Mexican druglords, no coherent rationale explaining the thinking behind the operation)

Posted by: Mook at November 01, 2011 01:13 PM (ue7R1)

75 After observing the incompetence of the Obama administration for the last 3 years, it puzzles me that people would assume that a grand conspiracy was responsible for the fuckup.

It's just a lot easier to believe they wanted to push their agenda with the program and forgot to come up with a legitimate law enforcement motive, rather than believe they had no intention of pushing their agenda with the program and then botched the law enforcement motive so badly that even with an army of experts attempting to spin they can't explain what they were thinking.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:13 PM (0q2P7)

77 It was a failed operation and abandoned. Like someone said earlier, Obama doubled down on it and ramped it up. Posted by: © Sponge at November 01, 2011 05:05 PM (UK9cE) Except that they didn't try it and fail, they KNEW IT WOULD NOT "WORK" IN ADVANCE, if the goal was actually to reduce trafficking! Seriously, do we need to go step-by-step through all the agent testimony *again*?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 01:14 PM (bxiXv)

78 Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:05 PM (SY2Kh)

I dunno HP.  How much "incompetence" has the O-Admin really shown?  Granted that their foreign policy is a shambles, let's look at some other facts:

1) Obama (mostly his advisers, but still) disarmed and emasculated what was thought to be the greatest Political Machine on the Democrat side for nearly a generation.
2) Porkulus worked for it's actual goal (Pay-off to political donors and constituent groups)
3) He pushed through a wildly unpopular health-care reform bill (getting several Democrats to commit political suicide in the process).

As much as I like the catharsis involved in saying "Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure," it's not really true- he has more or less met his actual goals for this term.  He's only incompetent if you assume he wanted what we think is best for the country- and not what his ideology thinks is best for the country.

Not saying you're wrong: it could be just a botched op- but the level of stupid required not to see the problems with not actually tracking the guns on a gun walking operation of this scale is monumental.  It's a level of stupid that eclipses even the OWS idiots.

I find that level of pure, concentrated, distilled stupidity to be no more likely than malfeasance.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:14 PM (8y9MW)

79 53...Add to the evidence we do that that a) Obama himself mentioned getting more gun control "under the radar," and b) Dianne Feinstein (I think) saying today that the "problem" was a lack of gun control- that it's too easy to buy guns.  I start to get a unified message from this that "Guns: BAD!"

I mean, it's one thing never to assume malice where ignorance will suffice, but mere ignorance no longer suffices, here.

June 30- "Today, Democrats are sponsoring a forum focused on stopping the weapons flow through gun law 'improvements.'"

July 13- "Internal ATF emails seem to suggest that ATF agents were counseled to highlight a link between criminals and certain semi-automatic weapons in order to bolster a case for rule like the one the DOJ announced yesterday [Monday]."

July 15- Amid Fast and Furious probe, Democrats push new gun control bill

October 15- AG: Gun control would have stopped Fast and Furious

Posted by: Miss'80s at November 01, 2011 01:15 PM (d6QMz)

80 Posted by: Miss'80s at November 01, 2011 05:15 PM (d6QMz)

Thanks.  My google-fu is not what it should be.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:16 PM (8y9MW)

81 I almost forgot to mention that as of today, I'm "Confederate Yankee" no more.

Yeah, I visited your site a lot.

Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 01:18 PM (YdQQY)

82

October 15- AG: Gun control would have stopped Fast and Furious


Holder then went on to say that the reason the ATF was unable to prevent the weapons from being sold to the cartels was a lack of gun control and registration.

“ATF witnesses testified before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform that the agencyÂ’s ability to stem the flow of guns from the United States into Mexico is severely impaired by a lack of effective law enforcement tools.”  Holder said, “For example, a number of witnesses indicated that current penalties for illegal straw purchases are inadequate to deter such activity or to include cooperation with law enforcement authorities after a violation is detected. Likewise, the lack of reporting requirements for multiple long gun purchases in a short period of time hindered law enforcement efforts to combat gun trafficking.”

Posted by: Miss'80s at November 01, 2011 01:18 PM (d6QMz)

83 We are definately going to have a full blown constitutional crisis before this guy leaves office,if he is reelected.......

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:18 PM (fyOgS)

84 so either A. the ATF and DOJ was trying to juice gun crimes to pursue an anti gun agenda. or B. the CIA was involved since Mexico is really nothing more than a failed state controlled by narco-gangs and they're trying to strengthen the weaker cartels to keep them fighting among themselves. or C. Obama is a SCOAMF and that shit rolls down hill.

Posted by: bannor at November 01, 2011 01:18 PM (RZqFI)

85 It was a failed operation and abandoned.  Like someone said earlier, Obama doubled down on it and ramped it up.

There is absolutely no evidence of the Obama Administration "doubling down and ramping it up" evah... 

Posted by: Stimulus Package #2 at November 01, 2011 01:19 PM (n1JN0)

86

"Wide Receiver" probably wasn't as big - nor as much of a miserable failure as "F&F" ... but neither are acceptable in my opinion.

 

And both are the product of the bastards in the BATF.  That agency must be disbanded!

Posted by: HondaV65 at November 01, 2011 01:20 PM (8X9tr)

87 86 It was doubled down and ramped up from Wide Receiver,that was the point.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:20 PM (fyOgS)

88 Fire the entire justice department and start over

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 01, 2011 01:21 PM (i6RpT)

89 87 BATF/ATF has long been known as one of the worst LE agencies in the country.Worst run,worst manned.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:21 PM (fyOgS)

90 B. the CIA was involved since Mexico is really nothing more than a failed state controlled by narco-gangs and they're trying to strengthen the weaker cartels to keep them fighting among themselves.

This goes back to what I said earlier, though:  Wouldn't Congress have been briefed- even off the record- about this?  In which case it wouldn't be quite so high on Mr. Issa's priority list?

Remember- with any "legitimate" reason, you also have to factor in the fact that Congress apparently knew nothing about it, and that the Administration STILL has not briefed them on whatever "legitimate" aim existed. 

Even with Enhanced Interrogation and Rendition, Congress was kept informed.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:22 PM (8y9MW)

91 After observing the incompetence of the Obama administration for the last 3 years, it puzzles me that people would assume that a grand conspiracy was responsible for the fuckup. Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:05 PM (SY2Kh) After observing the mendacity, viciousness, and corruption of the Obama Administration for the last 3 years, it boggles the mind that people are still saying "there must be an innocent explanation for this." Look, we *know* they knew the consequences and proceeded anyway. We *know* that they are carrying out the plan of trying to use the consequences of their actions to push for more gun control. Do I *know* what their motive is? No, I'm no mind reader. I only know what has been revealed of what they said and did, and I think *based on that evidence* that sheer stupidity is far from the most likely explanation. We still have a long way to go to find out for sure, but seriously, I'm boggled at the insistence on an innocent explanation. I get "we don't know yet," it's the *insistence* that it's mere incompetence that is puzzling.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 01:22 PM (bxiXv)

92 Sheryl Aktinson, one of the only major media reporters even covering Fast and Furious, alleged that "Wide Receiver," a Bush era program, was a "gunwalking" program in the same sense that Fast and Furious was.

A piss-poor attempt to appear evenhanded.


Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at November 01, 2011 01:22 PM (1rHeD)

93

Posted by: bannor at November 01, 2011 05:18 PM (RZqFI)

Does it have to be either/or answers?  Can't it be a combination of 1 or 2 or all 3? 

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at November 01, 2011 01:23 PM (UR5vq)

94 Yeah.  Conspiracy is unthinkable in this case.

Kinda like the crazy idea that you could get 20 foreign dudes into the country, legally and illegally, have 'em learn to fly (but not land) aircraft without drawing attention to themselves, then after a few years hijack planes and crash 'em into selected targets in highly populated areas, including some of (theoretically) the most controlled airspace in the country.

Yeah.  Crazy idea, I know.  Silly of me, don't know where I came up with that...

Effing Blofeld wannabes.

Posted by: DarkLord© for Prez! at November 01, 2011 01:23 PM (GBXon)

95 Begone pesky facts! Begone!

Posted by: MFM at November 01, 2011 01:23 PM (8zisB)

96 I dunno HP.  How much "incompetence" has the O-Admin really shown?  Granted that their foreign policy is a shambles, let's look at some other facts:

Do you really think that they'd have coughed up a cool half billion had they known in advance that Solyndra would fold?  Or overpromised on the "stimulus"?

He's an elected official.  As much as he wants to pay off supporters and donors, nobody knowingly does it to the degree that they're going to get caught and jeopardize his re-election chances.  Especially a narcissist like Obama, who'd throw anyone and anybody under the bus should they prove politically inconvenient.

As to foreign policy, his successes were either the result of coasting along with Bush's plans, or easy, no-brainer decisions such as whether or not to go after Osama.  When it comes to actual decision making, we have the fiasco in Poland with respect to missile defense, the embarrassing Honduras policy, etc.

Similarly, we have F&F- rather than come up with a well formulated plan and attention to execution, they lazily tried to take a page out of Bush's old playbook.  Where they tried to be bigger and better is exactly where they failed.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 01:24 PM (SY2Kh)

97 88 86 It was doubled down and ramped up from Wide Receiver,that was the point.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 05:20 PM (fyOgS)

Didn't realize I needed to add a "sarc" tag there.  Sorry for the confusion, Steevy...

Posted by: Brock O'Bama at November 01, 2011 01:25 PM (n1JN0)

98 Well, the part where a group of people decides to handmaiden a bunch of murders in order to blame it on a political movement they don't like and take away Americans' rights.

Just leave off the "in order to..." half of that, and you have what objectively happened, without any speculation re: what you call "goals," which, really, you equate with big-c "Conspiracies," because...I don't know. It's a thing people do.

What it seems like is that you believe groups of people have "goals" that exceed in some I guess metaphysical way the things they actually do (why would you believe that? it's just not so), but groups of people don't have shared, bad "goals," because those are Conspiracies™, and there aren't any of those, because...there aren't.

So when you keep asking, ever unsatisfied, what the "goal" here was, you're not asking what the goal here was (which is objectively known, because they actually accomplished something), but how the participants in this objective murder-handmaidening rationalized their murder-handmaidening as something that isn't (or that metaphysically/morally/whateverly exceeds) murder-handmaidening.

Who gives a fuck what they say? They're murderers. And they did what they did, a known thing, because they wanted to, and they could.

There doesn't have to be anything more to it. There almost never is.

Posted by: oblig. at November 01, 2011 01:26 PM (cePv8)

99 Someone with an ounce of linear questioning capability on the investigation committee has to get to the question, "At any level, Mr. Holder, was the intention of Fast & Furious to subvert the 2nd amendment?" 

A line of questioning must end there and he must be made to go on the record.  Because, there is a memo somewhere that will confirm that's exactly what they wanted to do and he needs to be on the record denying such intent when the memo comes out.

Posted by: The Hammer at November 01, 2011 01:28 PM (7WMGf)

100 OT/ but it looks like one of Cains "accusers" is all lawered   up and wants to talk.Wants to be released from her "confidentiality "agreement.I'm sure she has been offered the big bucks for her story.

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at November 01, 2011 01:28 PM (5Wl/f)

101

Assume the best case scenario. Breuer and/or Holder are tried and convicted for what we all suspect are crimes they have committed related to F&F.

January 19, 2013. You all know they get pardoned in exchange for having not ratted out Obama's likely knowledge and involvement in this.

Which raises the scariest reality. Can you all even begin to imagine the lsit of people Obama is going to pardon in his last day's in office? Would anyone on that list shock you?

Posted by: Kansas Gman at November 01, 2011 01:28 PM (u4a/I)

102 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 05:22 PM (8y9MW) most transparent administration ever! I'm thinking the DOJ is probably packed to the gills with anti-gun true believers and all methods can be excused when your goal is so pure. I like the CIA angle just because that's an Iran-Contra level of fucking up and seeing Obama take that fall out in the ass would be popcorn worthy.

Posted by: bannor at November 01, 2011 01:30 PM (RZqFI)

103 I don't want to think that -- that seems a little farfetched

Not me. They had a solution (more gun control) in search of a problem.  This was their stupid attempt at it.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 01, 2011 01:31 PM (JYheX)

104 103 I'm thinking the DOJ is probably packed to the gills with anti-gun true believers and all It is,easily confirmable.PJM did a running series about DOJ hires.

Posted by: steevy at November 01, 2011 01:32 PM (fyOgS)

105 Does it have to be either/or answers?  Can't it be a combination of 1 or 2 or all 3?

If you accept any part of A you have to accept that the administration was an accomplice to murder in order to forward a political agenda.

If you accept any part of B you have to accept that the administration violated international law and the sovereignty of the Mexican government in what could be construed as an act of war by a neighbor.

If you accept any part of C you have to accept these people are far more incompetent than previously imagined dangerously, and impeachably stupid. So stupid you wouldn't trust them alone with a hammer because they might kill themselves accidentally. So stupid they aspire to tell time on the cool clocks with the hands that go in a circle. So stupid they one day dream of figuring out why eggs break when you drop them.

So only putting them in one category is actually best for them. It portrays them in the best light.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:33 PM (0q2P7)

106 but it looks like one of Cains "accusers" is all lawered up and wants to talk.Wants to be released from her "confidentiality "agreement.I'm sure she has been offered the big bucks for her story. Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at November 01, 2011 05:28 PM (5Wl/f) For Cain's sake, when she comes forward and she will, I hope her story is substantially the same as Cain's. Her slant can be different, but if her facts are wildly different and she can prove that then Cain is in deep doodoo

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 01, 2011 01:33 PM (i6RpT)

107

LetÂ’s remember that thereÂ’s malice here either way, it just may or may not be murderous. The admin has tried to use the Mexican gangs using American bought guns line, even knowing about Gun walker.

So either they set the program up to weaken 2nd amendment rights, or they had this badly designed and failed program and used the predictable results of it without revealing it (and even after it was revealed) to weaken 2nd amendment rights.

 

The ‘conspiracy’ explanation Ace understandably wants to avoid isn’t so far fetched when you look at all we already have established.

(But I do want to say I think all of AceÂ’s posts on the topic are very good and he doesnÂ’t need to assert the full possibility officially to do his part in moving the story.)

Posted by: Randy M at November 01, 2011 01:33 PM (vI8R6)

108 Kinda like Solyndra. Bush administration said it sucks, so Barry the smart says 'We are smarter' and proceeded forward. Solyndra to push the green theme, F&F to push the 'America is supplying guns to Mexico' data points to enact stricter gun laws.

Posted by: Schwalbe : The © at November 01, 2011 01:35 PM (UU0OF)

109 Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:24 PM (SY2Kh)

I guess all I can say is that I come to different conclusions.  Not on the foreign policy part, though.  I already admitted his foreign policy is a shambles.

But I look at Solyndra and think "He/his donors pocketed some nice change from that."  I look at Porkulus and think, "Man the unions made out like bandits."

As for "over promising" on the Stimulus- he did two things there which were actually quite adroit:  first, he made sure he always said, "My advisers say," so that his advisers were readily available as bus-fodder if necessary.  Second, he made sure (not that it was that hard) that the Media would cover for him.

Things change drastically when you know you will not be held accountable for your actions- which is a reasonable assumption for Barack Obama (who is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure {yep, still like saying it}) to make.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:35 PM (8y9MW)

110 The "conspiracy theory" of the anti-gun motive for F&F is based on: 1. Statements of Clinton, Obama and others before the revelation (i.e. repeated lies about traffic to Mexico, Obama's "under the radar" quote). 2. The internally controversial decision to allow guns to be delivered unmonitored, the shutting down of internal dissent on the subject, and the punishment of agents who spoke up or spoke out. 3. The calling-off of surveillance on the weapons over objections. 4. The foreknowledge that the guns would be used to kill innocent third parties (the "break a few eggs" comment reported by whistleblower) 5. The documents revealed so far on using the consequences of the project to push for more regulation (see Miss80'sbaby's link above) 6. The continued push by the Democrats for more gun control based on the consequences of this project, even after the cover was blown I totally get the "case not proven" argument, but not the "can't possibly be" argument. This is a strong case, this isn't some "the towers must have been brought down by orbital lasers because fire can't melt steel" bullshit.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 01:35 PM (bxiXv)

111 but if her facts are wildly different and she can prove that then Cain is in deep doodoo

I was completely unaware that factual proof was ever required for accusations against Republicans. 

Posted by: alexthechick at November 01, 2011 01:35 PM (Gk3SS)

112 I can't imagine why one would have any hesitation believing that Gun Walker,s only failure is that we found out about it. Continuing to give the benefit of the doubt where there is no reason to have doubts is naive.

Posted by: Adobe Walls at November 01, 2011 01:38 PM (mLThi)

113 I was completely unaware that factual proof was ever required for accusations against Republicans. Posted by: alexthechick at November 01, 2011 05:35 PM (Gk3SS) they are not and they are often absent. However if she has the goods, and that's a big IF, then that's a horse of a different color

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 01, 2011 01:38 PM (i6RpT)

114 then that's a horse of a different color

Raaaaacist!  Denounce yourself!

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:39 PM (8y9MW)

115 O/T - I'm pretty sure some morons have reported that this happened to them; Upon waking Saturday, the woman reported to police the envelope containing the cash missing and her buttocks sore. She told police she did not remember what happened. Posted by: Erin Holdsworth I don't know about that, but I did wake up in a bath tub full of ice and my kidneys missing...

Posted by: bergerbilder at November 01, 2011 01:39 PM (S1Ttj)

116 Ace: "...there are going to be serious suspicions about our government's actual motive."

No, the suspicions have been valid and strengthening for many months now. What we are missing are recriminations and prosecutions.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at November 01, 2011 01:42 PM (gEvYK)

117 with this gang in power, I always first go to the alinsky principles, as to why they would do something.  Its always to create the problem so you can implement your pre-conceived solution.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 01, 2011 01:43 PM (JYheX)

118 OT: the ongoing saga of Time magazine, which has wormed its way into my house thanks to the NoVa Dept. of Ed., who insisted that my child receive a news magazine or newspaper for her govt. class.  My wife subscribed to what she thought was a stalwart, bland periodical. 

The cover this week is a picture of Hillary looking about 30 years younger than her actual age, with the caption: Hillary Clinton and the Rise of Smart Power. 

Nope, no agenda there, why do you ask?  These people parody themselves.

OTOH, I think this is the rats jumping into the lifeboat, given that their Messiah has feet of clay and is about to meet his political maker. (metaphor mixing alert!)

Posted by: pep at November 01, 2011 01:45 PM (6TB1Z)

119 I heard they were actually trying to plan an ice cream social for a school visit but a bug fell into the printer and changed the word for ice cream into "send thousands of automatic kill machines to mexican drug lords."

Posted by: Max Power at November 01, 2011 01:45 PM (q177U)

120 Do you really think that they'd have coughed up a cool half billion had they known in advance that Solyndra would fold?  Or overpromised on the "stimulus"?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:24 PM (SY2Kh)


Yes.

Posted by: KG at November 01, 2011 01:46 PM (LD21B)

121 It's always important to remember Hilly and other officials touting the '90% of Mexican Drug Gang weapons come from the US' meme.  That's the link to policy.

Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2011 01:46 PM (MMC8r)

122 Can you all even begin to imagine the lsit of people Obama is going to pardon in his last day's in office? Would anyone on that list shock you?

He'll start with Zeituni, and proceed to Michael Jackson's doctor.

Posted by: pep at November 01, 2011 01:47 PM (6TB1Z)

123

October 15- AG: Gun control would have stopped Fast and Furious


Holder then went on to say that the reason the ATF was unable to prevent the weapons from being sold to the cartels was a lack of gun control and registration.

Wow. Really, he is telling us the reason this was done, isn't he? Because the real reason teh ATF was unable to prevent a lot of the weapons from being sold was "They asked if they should and we said do it", wasn't it?

Posted by: Randy M at November 01, 2011 01:47 PM (vI8R6)

124 After observing the mendacity, viciousness, and corruption of the Obama Administration for the last 3 years, it boggles the mind that people are still saying "there must be an innocent explanation for this."

Nobody is suggesting an "innocent" explanation.  It's indisputable that they let thousands of guns "walk"- with no effort to track them- into the hands of violent criminal gangs.  Nothing "innocent" about that.

However, they did- in a short sighted, poorly administered way- have precedent for doing so.  Sure, they were reckless in their willingness to tolerate some 'collateral damage', and incompetent in failing to track the guns, but in the context of trying to break the Mexican cartels, one could be convinced the sacrifice to be worth it.

To believe the anti-gun conspiracy angle, we'd have to believe that:

1.  They never considered that they'd be found out, despite involvement with many different ATF officers, private gun store owners, and a paper trail back to Justice.

2.  They believed that gun violence in Mexico by violent cartels would sway American public opinion towards stricter domestic gun control laws, opposition to which is at a near all time high.

Neither of those assumptions sound plausible to me.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 01:47 PM (SY2Kh)

125 The last time I looked at a Time magazine was in the dentist's office. It noted that it has gotten a lot thinner and a lot more expensive. I couldn't make it past the first article on the inside.

I wanted to puke. I suspect that if it wasn't for dentists and doctor's offices they would have been out of buisness long ago.

Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 01:48 PM (YdQQY)

126 but it looks like one of Cains "accusers" is all ...

For Cain's sake, when she comes forward and she will, I hope her story is substantially the same as Cain's. Her slant can be different, but if her facts are wildly different...

Cain hasn't given us any specifics, including what all the accusations were. Only that there were accusations, he thought he did nothing wrong, it was settled out of court, and one example of a complaint.

We know there are other complaints. Or at least I assume so. But if they (she) doesn't have anything worse than something mildly suggestive, than it is probably a wash. Cain will compare it to Judge Thomas and Anita Hill and likely win the public debate in the press.

If something was overtly sexual, or, damnably sexist (sammich grade), it would hurt him greatly.


Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:48 PM (0q2P7)

127 but in the context of trying to break the Mexican cartels, one could be convinced the sacrifice to be worth it.

To believe the anti-gun conspiracy angle, we'd have to believe that:

1.  They never considered that they'd be found out, despite involvement with many different ATF officers, private gun store owners, and a paper trail back to Justice.

2.  They believed that gun violence in Mexico by violent cartels would sway American public opinion towards stricter domestic gun control laws, opposition to which is at a near all time high.

Neither of those assumptions sound plausible to me.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:47 PM (SY2Kh)


How exactly would F&F have broken the drug cartels? You think that is any more plausible then the two situations you listed?

Posted by: KG at November 01, 2011 01:49 PM (LD21B)

128 George Bush, nice man, a patriotic American and probably a good neighbor.
He was also a big government GOP type that had his excesses and made his share of mistakes, some at very inopportune times.

Obama, full blown radical Leftist, whose only mistake has been to think that a majority of Americans want him to succeed in taking the country down to the 3rd world level of defenselessness and degradation that is his ultimate goal.

Screw his lying emeffing marxist ass.       

Posted by: ontherocks at November 01, 2011 01:49 PM (HBqDo)

129 lol Bob Beckel just used the word "shat" on the 5

Posted by: Truman North at November 01, 2011 01:50 PM (I2LwF)

130 The last time I looked at a Time magazine was in the dentist's office. It noted that it has gotten a lot thinner and a lot more expensive. I couldn't make it past the first article on the inside. I wanted to puke. I suspect that if it wasn't for dentists and doctor's offices they would have been out of buisness long ago. Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 05:48 PM (YdQQY) A) I throw the copy they sent to my office in the garbage B) The marked price doens't matter, no one actually pays for it

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 01, 2011 01:50 PM (i6RpT)

131 Except that they didn't try it and fail, they KNEW IT WOULD NOT "WORK" IN ADVANCE, if the goal was actually to reduce trafficking!

Seriously, do we need to go step-by-step through all the agent testimony *again*?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 05:14 PM (bxiXv)



I guess I'm confused on where you think I don't get what happened.  Obama took a failed operation from the Bush administration, modified it and ramped it up in the hopes that it would give them the ability to take away weapons from American citizens.

What's not to get?

Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure and hates the America that we all grew up in and wants to form it in his daddy's image of what it should be.

Posted by: © Sponge at November 01, 2011 01:50 PM (UK9cE)

132

Lets see Ace.  If I ask you to:

1.  Turn around.

2.  Pull your pants down.

3.  Bend over.

4.  Close your eyes.

5.  As I move behind you.

6.  And you hear my pants being unbuckled.

7.  And feel my hands grabbing your hips.

What do you think happens next?  I sell you a magazine subscription? 

If so, uh...you want to hang out some time?

Posted by: Singyn at November 01, 2011 01:51 PM (NBj0d)

133 I suspect that if it wasn't for dentists and doctor's offices they would have been out of buisness long ago.

I suppose that after reading Time, a root canal seems less painful.

Posted by: pep at November 01, 2011 01:51 PM (6TB1Z)

134 The marked price doens't matter, no one actually pays for it

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 01, 2011 05:50 PM (i6RpT)

They send you magazines free?

Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 01:52 PM (YdQQY)

135 Posted by: KG at November 01, 2011 05:49 PM (LD21B)

Second.

I mean, really, let's say the guns were recovered.  At most, you get (because of how this was handled) some low level mules.  The cartels themselves are in Mexico (remember, the Mexican government wasn't aware of the operation, and isn't the most forthcoming with cooperation even when we bend over backwards for them), and therefore probably out of our reach, and the gun stores have evidence that they didn't want to do it, but were instructed to sell the guns by the ATF.

You can't claim on the one hand that they're rational (one could be convinced the sacrifice to be worth it) and on the other that they are irrational (in the context of trying to break the Mexican cartels).

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 01:54 PM (8y9MW)

136 They send you magazines free? Posted by: Vic at November 01, 2011 05:52 PM (YdQQY) Od course. You don't think I would pay for that crap do ya? And I do throw it right away. And also any other Magazine I get ( all for free I might add) that has any liberal bend to it

Posted by: nevergiveup at November 01, 2011 01:55 PM (i6RpT)

137 1.  They never considered that they'd be found out, despite involvement with many different ATF officers, private gun store owners, and a paper trail back to Justice.

2.  They believed that gun violence in Mexico by violent cartels would sway American public opinion towards stricter domestic gun control laws, opposition to which is at a near all time high.

Neither of those assumptions sound plausible to me.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:47 PM (SY2Kh)

Let's look at what is happening:

1. Is this story having an effect on the administration? If Obama and Holder manage to escape unscathed, I think they'd say it was worth it--look at throwing tools like Stupak and Nelson under the bus in the Obamacare debate.

2. They are trying to use this to sawy American public opinon towards stricter domestic gun control laws; obviously they think it has a chance to succeed.

Posted by: Randy M at November 01, 2011 01:55 PM (vI8R6)

138 MEMO

FROM: O
TO: H
CLEARANCE: Y.E.O.
re: F&F

I like your plan, particularly since Bush did it with during his Admin, and failed, LOL. Seriously, tho, that failure seems entirely too haphazard and, well, frankly, they just left too much to chance.

There's a light-bulb over my head: What if we removed ANY chance? Of success, I mean? I have two alternatives in mind: Scenario 1) Say I were to visit Mexico City on Air Force One (cargo capacity: 105 tons), take in a few rounds while the locals take care of baggage claim, then fly back to DC? You like? Okay, here's Scenario 2) Have your undercover boys sell the cartels a bunch of untraceable weapons. Me, I favor Scenario 1, but you know me and golf. Either way, buddy, green light. Don't do anything I wouldn't do, and if you do, name it after me!

Posted by: jwpaine at November 01, 2011 01:56 PM (FUozQ)

139 Hollowpoint: "2.  They believed that gun violence in Mexico by violent cartels would sway American public opinion towards stricter domestic gun control laws, opposition to which is at a near all time high."

Actually, that could indicate an incentive to do exactly what they did (aka The Conspiracy). If you see gun control moving ever further away from your grasp, you have do do something drastic and immediate to stop/reverse that trend. Obama et al. are ideologues. Perhaps the most liberating and empowering right in America is gun ownership and its intended defense against tyranny. A Statist would bristle at seeing such a prize as gun control escape their grasp.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at November 01, 2011 01:56 PM (gEvYK)

140 I think the big thing here is that the Wide Receiver operation was in COOPERATION with the Mexican government while the Stuttering Custerfuck of a Miserable Operation was done under the table with 20 times the guns involved and no method or intent of tracking whatsoever.

Nope......no conspiracy here.

Posted by: © Sponge at November 01, 2011 01:57 PM (UK9cE)

141 Neither of those assumptions sound plausible to me.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:47 PM (SY2Kh)

No not to assume a. I think the intent was to re-establish WR as a political agenda operation, rather than as law enforcement as its principal objective, and they just forgot to make the program at least theoretically workable, just assuming the law enforcement motive, if the program failed, would be accepted without question.

That is a lot less of a stretch than assuming they intended it for law enforcement purposes and just couldn't see it wouldn't work.

So they overlooked the little tracking part of the plan that made it make sense. Oh well that's not what it was for anyway. What it was for was to re-create the WR failure of walking guns into Mexico, not the WR success of actually nabbing folks.

As far as B that point is QED that they believed that based on the statements they have made before and after FF.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 01:58 PM (0q2P7)

142 31 If I am reading the tea leaves correctly, there is a decent chance that enough evidence exists to force an impeachment trial of the President in 2012, and felony criminal charges for many involved, including Holder, Napolitano, and other top officials.



Hey, it looks like you read my letter to Santa. That's everything I want for Christmas.

Posted by: Leo Ladenson at November 01, 2011 01:59 PM (mAm+G)

143 Neither of those assumptions sound plausible to me.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:47 PM (SY2Kh)

HP - I get what your saying here, and I tend to gravitate towards incompetence as well.  But, what if the Administration really doesn't care about being discovered?  After all, this is an Administration that knowingly violated campaign contribution laws with credit card donations, knowingly dropped a voter intimidation case.  I'm starting to get the impression that they think its perfectly acceptable to violate any and all laws that are deemed inconvenient.

Posted by: Brock O'Bama at November 01, 2011 01:59 PM (n1JN0)

144

102 Which raises the scariest reality. Can you all even begin to imagine the lsit of people Obama is going to pardon in his last day's in office? Would anyone on that list shock you?

Wamma bet Mumia the cop killer is on that list.

Posted by: Schwalbe : The © at November 01, 2011 02:02 PM (UU0OF)

145 laws don't apply to the ruling class.

Posted by: bannor at November 01, 2011 02:02 PM (RZqFI)

146 Nope, the point is to create a problem and chaos in the alinskey thinking.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at November 01, 2011 02:03 PM (JYheX)

147 OT: Scarlett Johansson should be a Moron.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 02:04 PM (8y9MW)

148 If something was overtly sexual, or, damnably sexist (sammich grade), it would hurt him greatly.


Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at November 01, 2011 05:48 PM (0q2P7)

It would... but I would think that information would already have been delivered.  Since the campaign had 10 days to address the issue (even as poorly as they did), I'd think the Left would have had longer to dredge up what they could, and it would have been made public already.  But we'll see...

Posted by: Brock O'Bama at November 01, 2011 02:04 PM (n1JN0)

149 How exactly would F&F have broken the drug cartels? You think that is any more plausible then the two situations you listed?

Their apparent intention was to link the guns sold by illegal straw purchases (facilitated by the ATF) to guns found at cartel crime scenes or arrests.  In doing so, they thought they could build a case not only against the stateside traffickers, but the cartels (the 'big fish') as well.

They knew in advance where the guns were headed, so didn't think it necessary to track them.  Instead they'd use the guns recovered from the cartels as proof that they were the recipients and traffickers of the weapons.

I didn't say it was a good plan, but to a Washington bureaucrat I can see how they could've convinced themselves that it was worthwhile.

If the purpose of the operation was simply to increase the number of American guns used in cartel violence, why the big operation and involvement of so many ATF officers and private gun store owners, one of whom would surely talk?  We don't believe that the US government is capable of secretly delivering a couple thousand guns to Mexican cartels without the paper trail and witnesses?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 02:05 PM (SY2Kh)

150 We don't believe that the US government is capable of secretly delivering a couple thousand guns to Mexican cartels without the paper trail and witnesses?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 06:05 PM (SY2Kh)

What would be the point of delivering the guns secretly? To their thinking, it would seem more "realistic" to allow the mules to buy the guns and smuggle it out.

Also, about the "someone would surely talk" thing. How many laws has the Obama admin already violated with impunity so far? Quite a lot, I don't think they would've cared overly much as long as the operation suits their goals.

Posted by: KG at November 01, 2011 02:11 PM (LD21B)

151 We don't believe that the US government is capable of secretly delivering a couple thousand guns to Mexican cartels without the paper trail and witnesses?

Actually, I don't.  I don't think you'd find an agent willing to do that.  Even if you did, there are just as many people involved- if in a logistics instead of operations sense- with that scenario.  Also, that would hurt the story that "gun control would have prevented this," that they're pushing now.

You and Ace are proof that many/most people want to believe their government has- if not benign, at least reasonable- intentions.  So getting ATF Agents to shepherd the purchases wouldn't actually be as hard as finding someone to deliver those guns- knowing they'd be used directly against civilians.

Further: we do have whistle-blowers who are, more or less, alleging what we're saying- the Gov't wanted back-door gun-control.  Their verifiable claims have been borne out, and no one has come up with anything that would impugn their character- so I tend to believe the (as yet) unverifiable claims as well.  Someone who has been proven trustworthy can be granted trust, after all.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at November 01, 2011 02:14 PM (8y9MW)

152 HP - I get what your saying here, and I tend to gravitate towards incompetence as well.  But, what if the Administration really doesn't care about being discovered?

Because if their intent was to use the violence committed with the smuggled guns as justification for agitating for stricter domestic gun control laws, they couldn't have it known that the US government was providing those same weapons.

Sure, they still could (and are) try to make that argument, but it's been rendered so hypocritical and weak that those arguments will hold zero sway with the public.  What are they going to say?  We need stricter civilian gun laws to prevent the ATF from smuggling more guns into Mexico?

It would be like citing a heroin epidemic in Detroit as evidence we need stricter drug laws immediately after it was revealed that the US government airdropped a thousand kilos of heroin into the city.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 02:23 PM (SY2Kh)

153 1.  They never considered that they'd be found out, despite involvement with many different ATF officers, private gun store owners, and a paper trail back to Justice.

Exactly. If the intent was to weaken the R2KBA, logically you would have to prove a domestic origin for the guns. But by providing the origin with written immunity, the intent makes no sense. It could never work.

On the other hand, if the intent was to weaken the BATF, you'd have a workable conspiracy going...

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at November 01, 2011 02:26 PM (+lsX1)

154 AllenG (#10 above) has absolutely nailed it!  The feds DIDN'T WANT TO TRACK THE GUNS!!  In fact, they must have hoped that none of the guns would be tracked - aside from being identified as having come from the U.S.  This was a most nefarious plan but carried out stupidly, like most government plans.  Too many people were involved to be able to contain it.

Such a plan could only have emanated from the highest officials within the various agencies involved.  And that includes the office of the President, until PROVEN otherwise.

Posted by: Charles at November 01, 2011 02:36 PM (y85Ph)

155 I'm starting to get the impression that they think its perfectly acceptable to violate any and all laws that are deemed inconvenient.

We have a winner...

Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at November 01, 2011 02:45 PM (PMGbu)

156 A few things puzzle me about the small arms going to Mexico including those from F&F. Perhaps some can shed some light/comment on these, or not.

1. Every book I have read about the cartels in the last ten years (about a dozen from general and academic publishing houses) cite the fact that the Mexican cartels employ straw purchases form gun dealers in the U.S. Why?  They are purchasing fully-automatic weapons from Central America and China, hand grenades made in Korea, and RPG launchers form somewhere. Why are they paying gang-member Pablo's brother to buy a few handguns in the U.S.?

2. Many of the small arms smuggled to Mexico are going to individuals to provide some sense of security from the cartels and other criminal gangs. I do not see that as a bad thing. Is it?

3. Of the the tens of thousands of small arms in Mexico, samples from F&F happen to be used to kill U.S. government agents?  Does that seem to be surpassing the odds a bit?  Others turn up the the sight of other killings to be documented. They throw these out like used tissues at crime scenes?

Posted by: RioBravo at November 01, 2011 02:49 PM (tPXxg)

157

Sorry if this is off topic or been repeated here before, but. I am beginning to think Obama is a Stuttering Clusterfuck Of A Miserable Failure.

Posted by: Minnfidel at November 01, 2011 02:52 PM (6SstQ)

158 Neither of those assumptions sound plausible to me. Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 01, 2011 05:47 PM (SY2Kh) 1) Strawman, no one ever claimed they never considered they'd be caught. That's why they tried to hide it and cover it up, and why they continue to try to cover it up and distract the reporters and the public. 2) It may not seem plausible to you, BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. As I said, if the facts seem implausible to you, that does not change whether they are facts. Hell, leftist behavior seems implausible all the time, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. I mean, look at the OWS list of demands, for crying out loud. If plausibility determined behavior you'd never see a trust-fund marxist wearing a Che t-shirt, it's practically a cliche.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 02:54 PM (bxiXv)

159 I am suffering with agonizingly slow mi-fi AND the page reload problem, but I've GOT to say this:

SHARYL ATKISSON HAS BEEN VERY CONSISTENT IN GETTING IT WRONG ON OPERATION WIDE RECEIVER.

Good work on everything else, but she is NOT connecting the dots or doing her homework on Wide Receiver.

And now, to post this and wait ten minutes. Bah.

Posted by: arhooley at November 01, 2011 02:55 PM (ncXob)

160

158

Rio Bravo

Good questions.  One would think that the cartels would want fully automatic weapons. Heavy shit with a rapid rate of fire. They can get those from anywhere, so like you say. Why are they having gang bangers buy semi auto stuff here? And the odds of one of those weapons killing one of our people is an interesting angle too. Hmmm

Posted by: Minnfidel at November 01, 2011 02:55 PM (6SstQ)

161 Why are they paying gang-member Pablo's brother to buy a few handguns in the U.S.? read up on F&F - the FBI paid for a lot of these. It was free or cheap to the cartels. Also, some of the higher-end or better quality weapons are not available (or as available) from international suppliers, but that's a small percentage. 2. Many of the small arms smuggled to Mexico are going to individuals to provide some sense of security from the cartels and other criminal gangs. I do not see that as a bad thing. Is it? Not many, especially since they were being bought directly by the cartels. Others turn up the the sight of other killings to be documented. They throw these out like used tissues at crime scenes? Posted by: RioBravo at November 01, 2011 06:49 PM (tPXxg) Pretty much, especially since a lot of "grunts" in gang wars get killed or desert. The real price people paid for a lot of these AKs and SKSs was closer to $50-100, that's a throw-away item.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 03:04 PM (bxiXv)

162 ...but she is NOT connecting the dots or doing her homework on Wide Receiver.

Like I said, she's just trying to look evenhanded.

The other possibility is that Obie's thugs have been making threats and CBS personnel are running scared.

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at November 01, 2011 03:08 PM (1rHeD)

163
So to summarize. the Bush admin tried something that wasn't very effective and ended it.

The Bush admin had nothing to do with Wide Receiver. Neither his White House nor his DOJ were in on it.

Posted by: arhooley at November 01, 2011 03:10 PM (ncXob)

164 FYI, Senate Judicary (full of gun grabbers) is going to have hearings on F&F on 11/8. An attempt to steal thunder from Issa's next hearing on 12/8.

Posted by: Scott J at November 01, 2011 03:16 PM (Ip8Ph)

165
...but she is NOT connecting the dots or doing her homework on Wide Receiver.

Like I said, she's just trying to look evenhanded.
-------------------

Yeah, prolly. I'm in such hell with this slow mi-fi I can't read everything. But trying to appear even-handed is not the same thing as reporting the facts.

Posted by: arhooley at November 01, 2011 03:18 PM (ncXob)

166 163 Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of Candy Corn at November 01, 2011 07:04 PM

Thank you.

My questions were about the US to Mexico smuggling in general, not F&F.  The straw buyers are paying full retail/discounted retail for their weapons and there is necessary mark-up on top of that. They are not getting smuggled weapons for $50- 100 apiece from straw purchases.

There have been a few cases where weapons were imported to the US illegally (most recently some Romanian copies of, I believe, the AK-47 in full-auto config) and subsequently intercepted being smuggled to Mexico.

However, the researchers believe most smuggled weapons are from straw purchases of 2-4 weapons at a time. Then consolidated in smuggled shipments of 30 weapons or so at a time.

Posted by: RioBravo at November 01, 2011 03:34 PM (tPXxg)

167 90 The ATF is held in low esteem by most other law enforcement. Pretty much all the cops I know refer to the ATF as "F Troop".

Posted by: Braineaterbob at November 01, 2011 03:38 PM (ja5BY)

168 Maybe F&F was part of the Obama stimulus. Keeping gun dealers employed. The ones they are otherwise putting out of business due to all the regulations imposed which by the way keeps bureaucrats employed.

Posted by: RioBravo at November 01, 2011 03:38 PM (tPXxg)

169 So to summarize. the Bush admin tried something that wasn't very effective and ended it.

Too bad they didn't do that with the nation-building ops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Posted by: RioBravo at November 01, 2011 03:41 PM (tPXxg)

170 About 10 years ago there was ANOTHER case of ATF gun walking involving sales of guns to motorcyle gang members ... it too was a flop except that the gangs got the guns.

Posted by: torabora at November 01, 2011 03:58 PM (2jMZp)

171

126, 1. They never considered that they'd be found out, despite involvement with many different ATF officers, private gun store owners, and a paper trail back to Justice.

They got away with Waco, Ruby Ridge and a whole host of misconduct before and after. Why would their belief be any different now?

Posted by: Scott J at November 01, 2011 04:00 PM (Ip8Ph)

172 The straw buyers are paying full retail/discounted retail for their weapons and there is necessary mark-up on top of that. That's what will not stop kicking my ass about this. The eastern bloc flooded the world with full rock-and-roll, select-fire weapons that go for less than a quarter of what the neutered versions cost here. On top of that, they can take delivery in Mexico and not have to risk crossing the US-Mexico border. I'm starting to wonder whether these weapons were going to average-Jose Mexican citizens to defend themselves. If so, then they would be in the victims' hands when they show up at crime scenes.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at November 01, 2011 04:01 PM (p7SSh)

173

  "You seem pre-inclined to believe in Big Conspiracies."

Demonstrated policy is not a conspiracy, it's policy.  Oh, and don't forget about the whistleblower retaliations. 


 

Posted by: Chris at November 01, 2011 04:36 PM (ULA0k)

174 Wow this is soo helpful I have been trying to figure this out on my own for a long time now. Hopefully making this change will help encourage discussion on my blog.

Posted by: The Outcasts ePub at November 01, 2011 05:18 PM (0WlqN)

175 Yep! I was agreed, I'll keep in touch to your blog.

Posted by: Out of Oz epub at November 01, 2011 05:37 PM (9nYll)

176 Its Pleasure to understand your blog.The above articles is pretty extraordinary, and I really enjoyed reading your blog and points that you expressed. I really like to appear back over a typical basis,post a lot more within the topic.Thanks for sharingÂ…keep writing!!!

Posted by: The Compound Effect ePub at November 01, 2011 06:00 PM (Na3ov)

177

not to mention that 'Wide Receiver' was never intended to ALLOW guns to cross the border...just a wee 'lil difference there

Posted by: Tyler at November 01, 2011 08:13 PM (b4fz/)

178
AllenG @ 66:
It just freaks me out (Orwellian Nightmare for real, here) to think our Gov't would do this on purpose to limit my freedoms.

Obama & Co. really do hate us.
They make that clearer and clearer every single day.

Posted by: Better dead than burqa'ed at November 01, 2011 09:14 PM (F0o5k)

179 Ace is suffering from "normalcy bias."

Posted by: Better dead than burqa'ed at November 01, 2011 09:25 PM (F0o5k)

180 I was very happy to search out this web-site.I needed to thanks to your time for this excellent read!! I definitely enjoying each little little bit of it and I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you weblog post.

Posted by: Lost December ePub at November 01, 2011 09:43 PM (w427R)

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