1 Omg

2 Thank you sir! May I have another!?!?!

3 Worst thing? In the middle of all this we have another "gang"- The Gang of Six.  That is certain to obscure the debate and help kick this can even further down the road. The Senate Democrats already said this morning they are waiting for their plan.

4 I've heard a few Republicans explain this but most of them are on the House Budget Committee. A freshman budgeteer had a particularly good chart on it.

5 Look at that graph long and hard. Look again. If you're in the prime of your career in a larger city, you're reasonably successful in it and your wife works as well, you are dead center in the bullseye. You have a target on your back if you make between 100k and 200k per year. You have been warned. They mean to make slaves out of you, literally.

6

This post appears to contain math.

And is therefore inadmissable in the national discourse.

 

7

I've been listening to Rush for the past hour and a quarter and had to turn it off because there's only so long I can stand having to listen to the poor man try to explain to the idiots in the audience about why RAISING TAXES isn't a way to INCREASE REVENUE, and RAISING TAXES ON THE RICH doesn't mean JACK SHIT.

How have people not figured this out yet?  How many times do people like Rush and Paul Ryan and y'all at this blog have to hammer it into people's heads? 

*headdesk!*

8 Obama's Plan= Socialism. Paid for by that new "imaginary" math.

Ryan's Plan= Grows government almost as much as Obama's plan but at least uses real math.

Time to stop arguing who's dick is bigger or who's turd is shinier.

9 We can't tax our deficits away on the backs of the rich?  Who knew.  As for the VAT, Bill O'Reilly was touting that bullshit last week on his show as a temporary tax just to get the deficit down.  That's some real lookin' out for the folks, right there.

10 This has always been the ultimate policy of the progressives communists since the income tax was first instituted.

When the income tax was first put in place it was a small percentage levied against the "rich".  it did not take long to make its way to the lower classes. It was the same with the AMT scam. It was only going to be hitting the "rich". Now it is hitting the upper middle class and will soon hit the all.

The ultimate aim of Obama and his communist minions is a 100% tax rate and for them to own or control all industry and commerce. That is pure communism. That is where we are headed.

The only question there is now is if we will make it that far before the final collapse or if we get the collapse first and then a communist leader for life takes over.

Pure communism can not be implemented without a pure dictatorship so we will have to see. 

11 Look, I gave the middle finger numerous times on the campaign trail and got thunderous applause from my lackeys. Why's it different now?

12 Wow. The Greek two year bond has passed 20% yield. I hope it is double-ply and squeezably soft. Perhaps the same will be said of our bonds someday.

13 Oh and don't depend on the Republicans to get us out of this scam. The gang of 6 is already talking "compromise" on taxes in the Senate.

14 I know a young man that makes less than $15K/yr, and his withholding went up in 2010 and again in 2011. When I asked the IRS about it, they said it was to "reflect the current tax expectations". On less than $15K/yr?!?!? And yes, he owed more tax this year than last year and is being told it will be higher next year...

15 You mean, when the rich get taxed, they stop earning and hiring? And when corporations are taxed at a higher level, they pass on the cost to me?

16 As for the VAT, Bill O'Reilly was touting that bullshit last week on his show as a temporary tax just to get the deficit down.  That's some real lookin' out for the folks, right there.

Posted by: huerfano at April 18, 2011 01:19 PM (6zFxS)

Sure, just like tolls on roads and bridges were just a temporary thing to help fund their construction. 

How's those bridge and tunnel tolls working out for you, New Yorkers?

17 *sigh*

As anyone who has survived life under Communism will tell you the only way to survive is to hide resources and demonstrate need.

This is what it has come to in America.

Thanks a lot MBM and 52%ers.

18 As for the VAT, Bill O'Reilly was touting that bullshit last week on his show I hear he sells Factor-branded kneepads at his Cafe Press store. They have built-in compasses to point you towards DC.

19 Something subtle: I treat myself to those donut gems and chocolate milk every now and then at 7/11. I've noticed the price going from 1.19 to now 1.69 in the last six months.

Further, packaging of all foods is getting smaller but cost is remaining the same, if not going up 10-20 cents.

Good times.

20 You see what happens, Larry?!? You see what happens?!? You see what happens when you find a stranger in the alps?!? You see what what happens when you elect a bunch of innumerate liberal ideologues to the highest offices in the land, Larry?!? You see what happens?!? Catch the DOOM! train, children. Just get on board that long black train.

21 the only way to survive is to hide resources and demonstrate need. That is not mere snark or wry sarcasm. It had better become our day-to-day strategy. If you don't do this you will be eaten alive.

22 You see this? S&P casts a negative pall over the U.S. debt, possibly a prelude to ratings downgrade. The White House and the Treasury Dept cry and make excuses. “We believe S&P’s negative outlook underestimates the ability of America’s leaders to come together to address the difficult fiscal challenges facing the nation,” said Mary Miller, assistant secretary for financial markets at the Treasury Department. And White House Council of Economic Advisers Chairman Austan Goolsbee said, “I don’t think that the S&P’s political judgment is right.” Political judgment???

23

 Mr. Obama is turning as he did last week to limiting tax deductions and other "loopholes," such as for mortgage interest payments. We support doing away with these distortions too, and so does Mr. Ryan, but in return for lower tax rates.

It's a law in economics.

Subsidize what you want more of, tax what you want less of.

Obama and the Demorats claim to want more home ownership but they're going to punish us for owning. 

 

24

OT, but for anyone who's in the mood to do a little teeth gnashing that's not related to our country's fiscal DOOOOOM (it's nice to have diverse hobbies after all), I would like to direct your attention to WikiLeaks.  As Professor Jacobson says, "WikiLeaks Gives Bashir al-Assad a Gift."

WikiLeaks just released classified U.S. diplomatic cables indicating that since the second term of George Bush and continuing at least into part of the Obama term, the U.S. has provided funding to opposition groups in Syria...

...Why release these cables at this moment, when Bashar al-Assad is trying to suppress protests by blaiming foreign conspirators?

Why would WikiLeaks care about a few more dead Syrian protesters?  It's not like they're important. 

25 The VAT as a temporary tax?  Right.  All taxes and fees end up being permanent.  That Bill O'Rielly is a frelling genius.

The fact of the matter is, the truly rich have ways to avoid paying taxes.  The middle class, as represented in that bulge in the graph, does not.  The only way to get the massive revenue they would need is to tax that bulge.  Of course, at some point people will work less and drop their bracket down if possible, or quit working entirely and take the handouts they used to be paying for, but they might be able to get some more money for a year or two.

26 This was Barry DeepPockets' plan all along. 

Make the deficit a crisis by wild overspending, and make the solution taxing the other party's supporters while you fill the pockets of your supporters.

They want power more than solvency, because insolvency gives them more power when they have to move to the revolutionary phase.

27 Posted by: George Orwell at April 18, 2011 01:26 PM (AZGON)

Yup. Like it or not, we all work for 20th Century Motor Corp. now.

28 Will the, uh, higher taxes help this rash I've got going in my loins? If not, then I'm gonna need someone to apply something quickly before I get sickly.

29 Why would WikiLeaks care about a few more dead Syrian protesters? It's not like they're important. Dead Syrian protestors don't give snotty American and European liberals the same frisson that praise from murderous dictators gives them. It's nothing personal.

30 It's totally against the knucklehead way, because knuckleheads would rather fill the pockets of finance capitalists with trillions of dollarsand then turn around and fuck over working men and women and their families, but why not make corporations pay what they're supposed to pay?

I know, I know, rhetorical question. Much better to fuck-over the middle class. I know.

31 I will be happy to raise the debt ceiling in return for a balanced budget amendment.

Why are you folks playing hard to get?  I know your previous Republican boyfriends lied to you and promised to cut spending, but I'm different.

32 10 This has always been the ultimate policy of the progressives communists since the income tax was first instituted.

When the income tax was first put in place it was a small percentage levied against the "rich".  it did not take long to make its way to the lower classes. It was the same with the AMT scam. It was only going to be hitting the "rich". Now it is hitting the upper middle class and will soon hit the all.

The ultimate aim of Obama and his communist minions is a 100% tax rate and for them to own or control all industry and commerce. That is pure communism. That is where we are headed.

The only question there is now is if we will make it that far before the final collapse or if we get the collapse first and then a communist leader for life takes over.

Pure communism can not be implemented without a pure dictatorship so we will have to see.


The above pretty much covers it all.

33 only a fucking idiot would argue with an eggmcmuffin he wants you to dance; don't dance for the troll

34 the only way to survive is to hide resources and demonstrate need. To put it another way, there was a time when we thought of government as the one legal bully whose only job was to enforce contracts and stop theft and mayhem. Now, government has become the biggest single thief and benefactor of criminals and sponges. Unless you are a thief or a sponge, government is now there largely to rob and shackle you.

35

That was Obama's not-so-secret plan to fund his behemoth state. As did Pelosi's floating of the idea of a national sales tax or VAT.

I'd be amendable to a national sales tax if that was the sole form of taxation the feds utilized, alas, this isn't what Pelousi had in mind.

Oh, and to hell with Bill O'Reily for proposing such a nonsensical solution.  Those "temporary" taxes have one hell of a propensity for persisting over a long time.

36 @ Jesse

I know someone who could help with that, but I think you two probably need to make amends before it goes futha.

37 "At some point, I do think you've made enough money" - some fucking retard elevated about 600 levels past his plane of competence.

Eyeballing that graph, it looks like the "made enough money" point is just over $50K, if Barky's going to find a way to pay for all the Dreams of his Marxist Father.

38 erg does not read the graph.

erg just wants his diaper changed.

Waaa!  says erg.  Waa!

39 Austan Goolsbee needs to be brought before a House committee and questioned about his role in the White House.

40

Why would WikiLeaks care about a few more dead Syrian protesters?  It's not like they're important. 

If it hurts American national security interests, WikiLeaks is sure to leak that.

btw, didn't they say they were going to release Russian and Chinese national secretes soon?  Or are they going to puss-out on that? 

41 Look at the graph and cry, eggamoobymuffin. The plutocrats can't bail you out. Not even the ones who want to, but have been painfully unaware, all these years, that the IRS takes donations.

42 I keep saying it: in order for their tax-dreams to come to pass, Democrats are going to have to define "rich" down so far that the piss-smelling bum at the bus station is going to be considered "rich" because he has an honest-to-God belt to hold up his pants rather than the hank of clothesline the rest of us are using.

43 Dead Syrian protestors don't give snotty American and European liberals the same frisson that praise from murderous dictators gives them. It's nothing personal.
Posted by: Monty at April 18, 2011 01:29 PM

Is a frisson like a leg tingle?  Cause, I got that going on.

44 The fact of the matter is, the truly rich have ways to avoid paying taxes.  The middle class, as represented in that bulge in the graph, does not.  .

Posted by: cranky-d at April 18, 2011 01:27 PM (PHeqe)

Umm... not quite.

Everyone in your "bulge" qualifies for several deductions, but most are "automatic".
Then you have things like mortgage interest deductions, child tax credits, etc.

This is how people on welfare get $6,000+ tax return checks every year like clockwork. In other words- they get more back as a "tax return" than they pay in taxes & it's why Rent-A-Center and similar businesses go through the roof at tax time.

45 If it hurts American national security interests, WikiLeaks is sure to leak that.

Yup. The albino freedom fighter should just rename it to FuckingAmericaOverLeaks.

46 And then we all bend over and take it.  BOHICA!!!!!!!  It's not just for breakfast anymore!!!!

47 I forgot about that -- the tax and cap system was sold as a some kind of "Green" policy, but in fact what it really was was a direct tax on the middle class

This is the crux o' the biscuit: I think Obama and his Congress peeps thought that cap and trade was a shoo-in due to all the climate fear-mongering absorbed by US citizens over the years and that the big-time social programs like Obama-care could be passed first, and then pass cap and trade to pay for it all. Kinda like ordering a Bentley and planning to pay for it with your bonus check, and getting laid off instead. Typical. Without cap and trade they have to raid the dough somewhere else, and that somewhere else is YOU.

48 >>Perhaps the same will be said of our bonds someday. Sooner than the government is saying. When S&P signals a downgrade is on the way if shit doesn't get taken seriously double plus quick and PIMCO, the world's largest bond trader shorts the bond market, we are closer to a tipping point than Guam. On the plus side, gold continues it's relentless march upwards.

49 erg: While I've got you here, tell your mom that she left her underwear at my house. Again. Tell her just to go commando next time and save the trouble.

50 “I don’t think that the S&P’s political judgment is right.”

Political judgment???

Posted by: bizzarro universe soothsayer at April 18, 2011 01:26 PM (rYLNX)

Yup, you heard it right.  Economics, physics, mathematics, ethics- they all mean nothing to this crowd.  The only thing that matters is political ideology, and because this administration has (by their assertion) the correct political ideology anyone who disagrees with them is FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG.

On the bright side this is the same kind of head-in-the-sand bullshit that did in the Nazis and the Soviets.

On the not-so-bright side it took years of conflict and much bloodshed to do it.

51 And then what? Well, obviously, by then solar energy panels, Chevy Volts, and 10 dollar lightbulbs will save enough energy to be efficiently transported by high speed trains to the magical shores saved by the messiah's causing of the ocean's rise for the money trees planted there through governmental investment to start blooming. Don'tcha know anything?

52 One big factor not mentioned:

Those of us who came of age in the '70s remember how the inflation rate kicked millions of American taxpayers into the top income brackets.  Stagflation was a pension and retirement account killer when the inflation rate hit 13%.

Add to that the Social Security tax penalties that come into play when a retiree's  income "rises" .

The Visigoths were pikers.

53 Doesn't that sound like a threat? "S&P's political judgment is not right." That sounds like a warning not to fuck with the White House and its policies.

54 42 I keep saying it: in order for their tax-dreams to come to pass, Democrats are going to have to define "rich" down so far that the piss-smelling bum at the bus station is going to be considered "rich" because he has an honest-to-God belt to hold up his pants rather than the hank of clothesline the rest of us are using.

Posted by: Monty at April 18, 2011 01:34 PM (4Pleu)

I remembered that analogy of yours the other day, Monty, and broke it out to try and explain to some particularly clueless folks why "taxing the rich" is a stupid idea.  I don't know if I got through to them completely, but I think I saw the wheels start to turn in at least ONE of their sad, sorry, mushy heads. 

55 Note this well from Mish's blog all the way back in Sept 27, 2007; the ratings agencies have the privileges of a government-mandated oligopoly: The rating agencies were originally research firms. They were paid by those looking to buy bonds or make loans to a company. If a rating company did poorly it lost business. If it did poorly too often it went out of business. Lo and behold the SEC came along in 1975 and ruined a perfectly viable business construct by mandating that debt be rated by a Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organization (NRSRO). It originally named seven such rating companies but the number fluctuated between 5 and 7 over the years. Establishment of the NRSRO did three things (all bad): 1) It made it extremely difficult to become "nationally recognized" as a rating agency when all debt had to be rated by someone who was already nationally recognized. 2) In effect it created a nice monopoly for those in the designated group. 3) It turned upside down the model of who had to pay. Previously debt buyers would go to the ratings companies to know what they were buying. The new model was issuers of debt had to pay to get it rated or they couldn't sell it. Of course this led to shopping around to see who would give the debt the highest rating. Just wait and see if S&P doesn't get back in line to make Uncle Sugar happy, and soon.

56 Uhm, I don't want to sound "unpatriotic" or anything but I'd just a soon die as pay a VAT tax!

I'm sorry, but I'm just not open to Nancy Pelosi and her ilk, getting a geyser of new fucking cash, to waste and pour down rat-holes, from poor people trying to pay for eggs at the grocery store!

That, is fucking immoral!

57

Liberals are scrambling right now. The only way they can get voted into office is to promise their non producing base that they can get all of this government for nothing. There is always someone else that is going to pay their way.

That scam is over and the rich have taken a play out of the left's playbook and gone on strike.

58 erg: While I've got you here, tell your mom that she left her underwear at my house. Again. Tell her just to go commando next time and save the trouble.

Great slam, Monty, but I have to state that anything something like erg came out of is not a place I want to go into. That spazz-box is haunted!

59 why is everyone such a fucking idiot about the mortgage interest deduction? it levels the playing field between homeowners and investors in real estate. it's not unfair. or is the idea to take it away from business as well? really? interest paid won't be a legitimate business expense?

60 But look at all those ripe trillions ready for the plucking in the $50,000 to $200,0000 range. Delicious.

True.  But Obama can probably get away with taxing the shit out of the next group ($200-500K) easier and without anywhere near as much pushback, because (1) there aren't as many people in that bracket; (2) people who are in the bracket are generally working their asses off and don't have time to be mobilizin' and politicizin'; and (3) no one else in any of the other brackets feels sorry for them, because they either (a) wrongly believe the 2-500s  folks are living on easy street (a common sentiment from those in lower brackets; for the record, we ain't), or (b) see us as working-rich white trash not worthy of the proper trappings of wealth (a common sentiment from above).  So, ineffective though it may be, we morons inhabiting that unfortunate class can tell by inspection that an ass-rapin' is a-gonna' come.  And soon.

61 the piss-smelling bum at the bus station is going to be considered "rich" because he has an honest-to-God belt to hold up his pants He can afford pants? Plutocrat!!!

62 btw, the WSJ-blog mentions in that piece from which I lifted that quote that the "Republicans have so far been silent on the S&P's report." Well, of course. How can they criticize the US debt when they've already agreed to more spending and a higher debt limit?

63 How come all those wonderfully enlightened Pols we elected in "10", gave a nod to the Fair tax. Since "10" I havn't heard shit about it.

64 How much are the people earning more then $200K per year now paying in income taxes?  I'll bet it's a huge sum.

65 It took Europe 40-60 years to all but collapse under their failed socialist experiment because they were being propped up by guess who after the war, the fact that all of their product infrastructure was rebuilt and new and there were some fairly strong right of center vestiges existing in their political and business establishment.  It will take America a few years at best, to achieve the same spectacular results if the country goes socialist and capitalism is sucessfully repressed for primarily opposite reasons.  IMO

66

If it hurts American national security interests, WikiLeaks is sure to leak that.

btw, didn't they say they were going to release Russian and Chinese national secretes soon?  Or are they going to puss-out on that? 

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at April 18, 2011 01:33 PM (9hSKh)

I'm pretty sure Assmunch and his crew probably got a lot of "friendly" phonecalls, letters, and visits from higher-ups in the Russian and Chinese governments that persuaded them to re-think their position. 

"Zat is very nize throat you have zere.  Would be pity if somezing were to happen to eet.  And by somezing I mean cut."

67 But Wait..There's More! (over at the DC)

White House officials have unveiled a taxpayers’ “Federal Tax Receipt” website to goose publicity for a week of presidential speeches on the deficit, but the online receipt hides the president’s deficit spending and conceals the growing national debt.

68 How much are the people earning more then $200K per year now paying in income taxes?  I'll bet it's a huge sum.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 18, 2011 01:43 PM (n+0/v)

Less than their fair share.  I think they've all reached the point where they've made enough.  We'll just confiscate any future earnings.  And past earnings too, hello IRA.

69 62 btw, the WSJ-blog mentions in that piece from which I lifted that quote that the "Republicans have so far been silent on the S&P's report."...

They missed this then. Now I think he has purely political reasons for getting out in front of Boehner on this, but he did in fact respond.


The politics of S&PÂ’s U.S. debt warning

70 Well, obviously, by then solar energy panels, Chevy Volts, and 10 dollar lightbulbs will save enough energy to be efficiently transported by high speed trains to the magical shores saved by the messiah's causing of the ocean's rise for the money trees planted there through governmental investment to start blooming.

Don'tcha know anything?

Posted by: Shecky at April 18, 2011 01:37 PM (ZV5Qb)

Tsk, tsk.  You forgot to mention the Skittle-shitting unicorns!

71 Democrats are going to have to define "rich" down so far that the piss-smelling bum at the bus station is going to be considered "rich" because he has an honest-to-God belt to hold up his pants rather than the hank of clothesline the rest of us are using.

Luxury.

72 Unless you are a thief or a sponge, government is now there largely to rob and shackle you.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 18, 2011 01:31 PM (AZGON)

Yup. Even in small ways.

While I was watching Atlas Shrugged on Fri., someone plowed into my car in the parking lot did $1500 worth of damage to my left front fender. They fled, but fortunately some decent person got the tag # and left a note on my windshield.

Called the cops who, after waiting for 2 hours, came out a begrudgingly did a report, which they advised me would be available in 8-10 days, at the cost of $4 from the sheriff's dept. They said that the traffic department, sometime after that, would send a letter to the owner of the vehicle, advising them that they had been in an accident. Quoting the cop, "maybe you'll hear something in a month or two", despite the fact that he had the name & address of the owner and full vehicle details on the $3500 tough book in his car.

In other words, the cops are refusing to do anything and don't give a shit. My choice are to pay $1500, put it through my insurance and pay $500 less and have them hike my policy rate, or try to file a small claims suit on my own (plus cough up court costs, etc.). Of course, I will also have to go to DMV & beg and pay more to get the vehicle owner's info, so I know who to sue. The cop said that they "might give it to me, since it was involved in an accident" (yup, the same info on the laptop in the cop's car).

There is no law anymore. The police department is just another jobs program for overpaid government union workers.

73

Only a relentless -- almost robotic -- repetition of this basic fact by anyone appearing on television will make this happen

Amen, brother....but the problem is that the only ones who are willing are the ones that will be demonized and marginalized by the left and the MFM..(but I repeat myself)

....and then the squishes on are side will be shamed into thinking  how they agreed with this in the first place...and will be equally vocal critic

74 He can afford pants? Plutocrat!!!
Uh. Pluto didn't have pants; Goofy did.

75

deWon is notorious for saying that people like him shouldn't be getting the breaks they are, and should pay more taxes.  I want just one person to ask him how much extra he gives back to the government.   Is he willing to give up all the exemptions he takes, and just give back 75% of his gross?   Hell, is he willing to write a check for 50% of his gross?

Just one fucking half-ass honest person to ask the questions that need to be asked.   To. his. face.

76 60

The real truth underneath it all is that it's just a grab for more money to buy their voters off with.  They'll go for the less-productive cohort, sod the deficit, because they don't care about the deficit to begin with-- they want the money to spend.

77
Democrats are going to have to define "rich" down so far that the piss-smelling bum at the bus station is going to be considered "rich" because he has an honest-to-God belt to hold up his pants rather than the hank of clothesline the rest of us are using.

Ever see my seat belt?

78 >>btw, the WSJ-blog mentions in that piece from which I lifted that quote that the "Republicans have so far been silent on the S&P's report." Well apparently neither the WSJ nor you has read Drudge. Cantor came out swinging on this hours ago.

79 Luxury.

Posted by: Four Yorkshiremen at April 18, 2011 01:46 PM (MMC8r)

Monty Python thread WINNER.

80 *READ THIS BELOW* Yeah, I'm a prick with the ellipses, but this is what Cantor is saying. Cantor: " Washington has blindly increased the debt limit while doing little to stop spending money that it doesn’t have, [...] which is why House Republicans will only move forward on the President’s request to increase the debt limit if it is accompanied by serious reforms that immediately reduce federal spending and end the culture of debt in Washington.”

81 hahaha @ Cantor coming out swinging!

82 In other words, the cops are refusing to do anything and don't give a shit. The Dude shares your pain.

83 "I will only suck your dick for money if you promise not to cum in my mouth or in my hair, Mr. Obama."

84 Obama must get spending and the deficit under control! Which is why we're raising the debt limit! yeah, Cantor is really laying down the gauntlet, there.

85 @72 Posted by: Damiano at April 18, 2011 01:47 PM (3nrx7) Sad to hear. There are basically two rules in life. 1: Cops and City Hall are bad news, whether you are a thief or you play straight. 2: Never put your genitals into something you aren't sure they will come out of.

86 Unless you are a thief or a sponge, government is now there largely to rob and shackle you.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 18, 2011 01:31 PM (AZGON)

HEY!!!  You leave me out of this!!!!

87 >>Which is why we're raising the debt limit! Do you actually know what the debt limit is?

88 Posted by: Damiano at April 18, 2011 01:34 PM (3nrx7)

The issue is not that those means do not exist, rather that most middle-income earners (and even, into the upper reaches, those I call "the working affluent") don't know about some of the options available to them.  They buy a copy of TurboTax or H&R Block's current software (used to be Tax Cut, but I think it has a new name now), and let it do the deductions for them.  However, to make those "audit guarantees" worth anything, the software is designed to take the most conservative position it can without just ignoring all deductions.

Even the ones who have their taxes done go to some Accountant-in-a-Box, and they'll do the same thing.  Most people can't (or, at least, choose not to) afford an actual CPA to do their year-round accounting and make sure they get their actual maximum deductions.

"The Rich" do have CPAs, and "the poor" have so many deductions handed to them on a silver platter that they don't even have to look very hard.

89 Raise my taxes or Bobo dies!!!!!!!

90 Even Senator Paul is saying that he'll raise the debt limit under certain conditions. The argument is more clean bill vs. concessions, and Cantor has now once again outflanked Boehner on his right. He has purely political motives for doing so, but he's still positioned himself to the right of the Speaker.

91 Lol @ George Orwell & Monty

Even more funny- I got a call this morning from the FOP, asking for donations.

Regrettably, I didn't pick up the phone and only saw it on caller ID later.

92 Obama's latest signing statement shows he will not keep his word. There is no 'negotiating' with this Palestinian-esque conniver in the White House.

93 The two simplest ways to tax the people are: (1) The Fair Tax Everybody is taxed a percentage of what they buy and they take care of themselves. (2) 100% tax The government takes all of your money and they take care of you. Pick the one you want.

94 Nos. 64 & 68 -

How much are the people earning more then $200K per year now paying in income taxes?  I'll bet it's a huge sum.

I paid $156K on ~ $485K AGI (or around 32.2% real-time) last year ('09), and $169K on $585K this year (or 28.9%; I got a better CPA, who switched me to quarterly accounting, which made a big difference because of the way I'm paid out).

Pretty much everything useful but the mortgage interest deduction phases out entirely above a certain level (which is how you slide from the "highest" marginal bracket of 36% into the somehow-still-higher "effective 39.6%" bracket).

The big problem here is that the government fails to distinguish between people making $500K and those making $500M.  It's true you're in the top 1% either way, but the costs and standards of living couldn't be more different.

If they take much more or phase out the mortgage deduction I might just go postal.  And yes, it's tax day, so perhaps I'm a little hypersensitive about it right now.

95 Do you think Cantor and the rest of these (insert pejorative here) ever actually listen to themselves speak? To they take a minute and think about what is coming out of their faces. How completly moronic it is? How two faced and dishonest the statements once examined are?

96 yeah...um...flat tax.  But I repeat myself over and over again.

97 In other words, the cops are refusing to do anything and don't give a shit. My choice are to pay $1500, put it through my insurance and pay $500 less and have them hike my policy rate, or try to file a small claims suit on my own (plus cough up court costs, etc.).

Posted by: Damiano at April 18, 2011 01:47 PM (3nrx7)

Some insurance companies will not raise your rate if  the damage is under a certain amount.   For mine, it's $1800.   Then, if you can do that the insurance company will go after the other driver to recoup their money.   All you have to do is pay the deductable, get your car fixed, and you're good to go.

If you don't want to call them to find out, just go online and do the reasearch into what your particular insurance company allows.   It may be in your policy though.

98 typical JackStraw -- goin Godwin you should change your name to GraspinStraw with the way you've been trying to explain to dummies like me here at AoS all the nuance in this budget battle.

99 Flat, fair, whatever, Shut down the IRS.

100 G. Gorgon Liddy says, buy gold!

Gold rallies toward record highs near $1,500 an ounce - Reuters http://reut.rs/f15Oyl

101 Cantor: "...which is why House Republicans will only move forward on the President’s request to increase the debt limit if it is accompanied by serious reforms that immediately reduce federal spending and end the culture of debt in Washington.” In my small business class at college, the accountant running the thing said there were two statements you should never believe. "The check's in the mail," and "The Mercedes is paid for." Let's add "Serious reforms that reduce federal spending." It's always Lucy and the football with these guys in Congress.

102 Is he willing to give up all the exemptions he takes, and just give back 75% of his gross?   Hell, is he willing to write a check for 50% of his gross?

Just one fucking half-ass honest person to ask the questions that need to be asked.   To. his. face.

Posted by: Steph at April 18, 2011 01:48 PM (AkdC5)

I think that's brilliant.....

JEF:  Next question.....

Soon to be EX Human press person:  Mr. President.  You recently said in a speech that you Warren Buffet didn't need any tax breaks.  Since you're comparing yourself to a billionaire, what tax breaks are you currently taking advantage of and would you be willing to write a check for 50 to 75% of your annual income to your current Federal Government?

JEF:  Uh.....um, well, you see, for me to accurately answer that question, I would........I would now like to bring in Bill Clinton to field some questions as I hear Michelle moo'ing for me in the other room.  Have a good day.

103

You fucked, you trusted us.........

104 CUTTING FUNDING FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD WILL KILL OLD PEOPLE AND ORPHANS!

_{oh, shit, wait a minute...oh, well, just go with it....}

105 103, LOL

106 How come all those wonderfully enlightened Pols we elected in "10", gave a nod to the Fair tax. Since "10" I havn't heard shit about it.

I love the Fair Tax plan. I hate the grass roots bastards who fell for Huckaphoney's appeal to them. The Fair Taxers were just waiting for someone to come along and champion their issue, and their ground game was the only reason that poltroon won Iowa.

What I wish people would understand is that there is absolutely NO WAY that the political class will ever give up the power of the purse. Human beings never give up that amount of power without bloodshed. Once you understand that it's easy to see how the Fair Tax will never happen.

107

@8: "Obama's Plan= Socialism. Paid for by that new "imaginary" math.

Ryan's Plan= Grows government almost as much as Obama's plan but at least uses real math.

Time to stop arguing who's dick is bigger or who's turd is shinier."

Yup.  Basically, Dems = SOCIALISM NOW! GOP = Better-managed Socialism soon!

108 95 Do you think Cantor and the rest of these (insert pejorative here) ever actually listen to themselves speak? To they take a minute and think about what is coming out of their faces. How completly moronic it is? How two faced and dishonest the statements once examined are?

He's saying it for political reasons, but that wasn't the point. It was said that the Republicans were silent on the issue, and I'm assuming WSJ must have published the piece prior to the issuing of there. 

109

Should be "you fucked up..........

Stoopid fingers.

110 let's cut the shit, Mr Cantor Serious reforms to you are spending cuts in 2018 and beyond. Here in Reality Universe, 'serious reforms' means cutting all non-essential and wasteful spending now such as NPR, the EPA, and Planned Nonparenthood. oh, and that friggin Edward Kennedy Center.

111 In other words, the cops are refusing to do anything and don't give a shit. My choice are to pay $1500, put it through my insurance and pay $500 less and have them hike my policy rate, or try to file a small claims suit on my own (plus cough up court costs, etc.).

Posted by: Damiano at April 18, 2011 01:47 PM (3nrx7)

Get it fixed with your insurance. They cannot raise your rates if it's not your fault. With a witness statement and police report they will go after the other guy for the costs and try to get your deductible back for you.

112 Kinda off topic, but wow;

REUTERS - Violent protests erupted across Nigeria's largely Muslim north on Monday as youths angered at President Goodluck Jonathan's election victory torched churches and homes and set up burning barricades.

Just curious how many churches have to burn down before NATO moves in on this like Libya. Is there some type of magical number or does this not qualify as protecting civilians?

113

Should be "you fucked up..........

Stoopid fingers.

Posted by: A likeness of Natalie Portmans Ass and Obamas campaign promises at April 18, 2011 02:03 PM (v9geQ)

I liked the first way better since we're all property of China now anyway......

114 109, I thought you were using a Chinese accent, it worked for me.

115 113, Jinx!

116 Yeah, I know it's positively un-American, but anyone who doesn't have skin in the game--who doesn't pay any income tax--shouldn't get to vote.  Wasn't it Jefferson who said that the country would be doomed as soon as the people discovered they could vote themselves free goodies?   Well, doom is here.

117 oh, and that friggin Edward Kennedy Center.

Posted by: bizzarro universe soothsayer at April 18, 2011 02:04 PM (rYLNX)

You forgot the NEA.  Give the schools back to the states and see where the people move their kids to........ 

118

>>>Just curious how many churches have to burn down before NATO moves in on this like Libya. Is there some type of magical number or does this not qualify as protecting civilians?

Forget it Jake Marcus, it's Chinatown they're Christians.

119 Jinx!

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at April 18, 2011 02:07 PM (cDRYC)

Darn...I'm always slow at that game. 

120 94. One of our agents will be calling you shortly

121 Say “Goodbye” to the Dollar

122 Now that those two ideas have failed politically, Mr. Obama is turning as he did last week to limiting tax deductions and other "loopholes," such as for mortgage interest payments

Why is it that unless it is some enviro-commie thing, any deduction is a "loophole"? Oil companies including the expense in drilling oil wells is called a loophole.

Liberal assholes always distort the language to the point that all they do is spout lies.

123 Catch the DOOM! train, children. Just get on board that long black train.

Posted by: Monty at April 18, 2011 01:25 PM (4Pleu)

This isn't some sort of coded euphemism for Obama's dong is it?

124 What I wish people would understand is that there is absolutely NO WAY that the political class will ever give up the power of the purse.

Oh no.  We understand that, but we retain our right to express our bitch and be logical.

The good news is that reality will intervene and they will collect worthless dollars someday.

125 Excellent: Bill Whittle on eating the rich
Or direct youtube link


great video showing 100% wealth confiscation from athletes, businesses, rich people, etc, and how it would barely pay for a year of spending.... AND THEN WHAT?

126 And to all you people who are still pushing the so-called "fir tax" you need to research it and learn. It is not a "fair tax" and it is extremely bad for the average citizen.\

The only fair tax would be a flat tax on all sources of income, but we have never had that and never will.

127 bizzarro universe soothsayer at April 18, 2011 01:58 PM (rYLNX) Bart, you were an annoying twerp before you changed your name. Things haven't changed. Here's a tip. The debt ceiling will be raised. It has to be. The only thing in doubt is how much can the Republicans get in exchange. Whether you like it or not what politicians in leadership positions say matters. The US dollar is the reserve currency in the world. Fluctuations in the status of the dollar have huge ramifications around the world and that reserve status has benefited the US immeasurably since the end of WWII. If the debt ceiling isn't raised the US goes into default putting an end to the phrase full faith and credit of the US and the end of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency. The result of this would make the financial crisis of '08 look like a party. The IMF has already floated a proposal to replace the dollar and the BRIC countries are making similar noises. The stakes in this game couldn't be higher. Which is why even people like the US Chamber of Commerce are lobbying Congress to find a way to come to a resolution that allows the debt ceiling to be raised. You keep acting like the Republicans who are fighting to get debt and spending under control don't understand what is going on because they don't just wave a wand and make it so. Too bad. They do actually have to negotiate with Dems whether you like it or not.

128 Assuming there are spending cuts ...
do government managers know how to operate on a shrinking budgets ?
They have never had to .. what makes anybody think they can.  Their MO is to make life miserable till you give them more money.  That is a prescription for getting fired in the new paradigm.

129 90 Even Senator Paul is saying that he'll raise the debt limit under certain conditions. The argument is more clean bill vs. concessions, and Cantor has now once again outflanked Boehner on his right. He has purely political motives for doing so, but he's still positioned himself to the right of the Speaker.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at April 18, 2011 01:55 PM (uVLrI)

I think Rand Paul's "certain condition" was a constitutional amendment for balanced budgets that would end deficit spending. 

130

Some insurance companies will not raise your rate if  the damage is under a certain amount.   For mine, it's $1800.   Then, if you can do that the insurance company will go after the other driver to recoup their money.   All you have to do is pay the deductable, get your car fixed, and you're good to go.

If you don't want to call them to find out, just go online and do the reasearch into what your particular insurance company allows.   It may be in your policy though.

Posted by: Steph at April 18, 2011 01:58 PM (AkdC5)

 

That's great if the other person has insurance.  If they don't, then you're fucked.  You're just lucky there wasn't any personal injuries.  I spent $17000 of my own money for medical care after an accident caused by a person without liability, and, yes, I had medical insurance.  (Many med. insurance companies don't cover anaesthesiologist costs, where most of my money was spent.)   

131 I'm not sure how a budget resolution that rolls-back discretionary to '06 levels, reforms entitlements, ends corporate welfare, repeals and defunds ObamaCare, and reforms the tax code somehow equals growing government. Does it cut far enough or fast enough? No, but it still decreases the size of government.

132 129 90 I think Rand Paul's "certain condition" was a constitutional amendment for balanced budgets that would end deficit spending.

Yes, the unlikelihood of which means he probably won't vote for an increase. But the fact remains that he put the option out on the table.

133

Posted by: Steph at April 18, 2011 01:58 PM (AkdC5)

Thanks.

The catch more me is that I have a $1000 deductible. So the best the insurance co. will do it save me $500 and recoup $1500 for themselves. Rate hike or not, I lose. I don't blame the insurance company, but I intentionally structured my policy for the lowest rates and taking care of myself. It's cheaper, no matter what happens, and their rates suck because of government intervention.

I wouldn't carry insurance at all, were I not required to by law. I haven't been involved in any accident or had a ticket in more than 12 years. This accident costs less than my annual policy costs me. If I use the insurance, it still hikes my annual "costs of driving" outlay by $1000.

The only way that an insurance policy pays off is if you total a car that you owe money on... and pay extra to make sure that they cover the value you owe vs. book value.

134

@72: "There is no law anymore."

Oh, there's still plenty of law out there, just nothing that protects the average citizen.  Do anything that the gummint or elites don't much cotton to, and you can expect to experience all of it.

"The police department is just another jobs program for overpaid government union workers."

In a lot of cases, yes.  I do feel sorry for the honest ones out there, though.  The job has to be pretty soul-crushing.

135 126, I read the book, It makes sense to to me. Kill the IRS and repeal the sixteenth amendment. There is a few nuances that I don't neccessarily agree with. But Damn, the opening salvo is a damn good start.

136

It takes a breathtakingly pigheaded utopian attitude to rush forward on the Euro model just as the Euro model is contracting to collapsing depending on the nation.   It's been instructive having the US lag behind Europe in bad political ideas for decades now.  If you follow Europe you can predict the future of the hard Left here.

137 “We believe S&P’s negative outlook underestimates the ability of America’s leaders to come together to address the difficult fiscal challenges facing the nation,” said Mary Miller, assistant secretary for financial markets at the Treasury Department. This made me literally laugh out loud. The story would make much more sense if it were written like this: "Just because there is virtually no chance at all of our politicians coming together to address the difficult fiscal challenges facing the nation doesn't mean it's entirely impossible," quavered Mary Miller, assistant secretary for financial markets at the Treasury Department, who was on the verge of tears. "I mean, you can't mathematically rule it out. Plus, maybe the aliens will land and show us how to transform lead into gold, or show us who to generate cheap fusion power or something. Or -- hey! -- maybe this is all a dream! You can't prove it's not." Ms. Miller then broke down into hysterics and had to be led from the chamber by the Sergeant at Arms.

138

I'm in those nasty upper brackets and my tax bill is astronomical.

I work all the fucking time and spend most of my time out on the road in all sorts of shit.

I really don't give a shit about a bunch of lazy cocksuckers waiting for welfare checks aka EITC's.

 

139 Obama sucks cock.

140 ♫ Silver and Gold, silver and gold ♫

141 Please understand that when the left uses a word or phrase, the definition is rarely  consistent or concrete. When they talk about "the rich" as in "we need to tax the rich!", what they usually mean is, we need to confiscate all the earnings of the people who do not rely upon government assistance to meet their needs. If you work, earn a living, and pay your bills without any government (and by that I mean democratically sponsored) entitlement program, then by their definition you are rich. Look at that chart and know that they want to increase taxes for everyone whose income category has a blue line above it. Actually what they would really like to do is to collect everyone's entire paycheck, and then disburse income and services as they see fit.

142 126, I read the book, It makes sense to to me. Kill the IRS and repeal the sixteenth amendment. There is a few nuances that I don't neccessarily agree with. But Damn, the opening salvo is a damn good start.

Posted by: Oldsailor's poet at April 18, 2011 02:20 PM (cDRYC)

The book is almost worthless. You have to read the actual bill they tried to get passed and you have to read the study papers that support the book.

143 Well, I hope that everyone is settled in comfortably with "To each, according to need; from each according to ability".

The question of "if" this will be the case ended with the tax code. Rs and Ds are just haggling the amounts (and their difference of opinion is only .01%... for now).

144

Returns mailed for me and the kids.  It's a damn sad day 'cause I've finally given up preparing them manually and being able to follow my calcs on the schedules to see/understand how our income is taxed.

I was willing to be the last person in America who prepared his family's tax returns by hand, in pencil first, then ink for the filed returns.  Doing it Old School style gave me a deep, burning hatred of the tax code and Congress, borne of hands-on knowledge.

Now, using black box tax prep software that don't explain/teach a thing removes any sense of mastery out of the task.  It breeds indifference to all the crazy shit Congress has put in the tax code in the last 20 years.

The better the tax software gets, the crazier the shit Congress will write into the tax code.  After all, no one is painfully sweating out doing it themselves anymore.

/steps off soapbox

145 I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's going to take pitchforks, torches, and millions marching on Washington DC as a last gasp to make these idiots listen to us and change their ways.  The next step is going to be far more drastic, and I don't think any of us wants to go there.  This is it people.  The end of the road.  If we have any hope whatsoever of salvaging this country, we are going to have to do more than just light up pixels on a screen!

146 140, ASCAP wants to have a talk with you mother fucker.

147

The better the tax software gets, the crazier the shit Congress will write into the tax code.  After all, no one is painfully sweating out doing it themselves anymore.

/steps off soapbox

Posted by: Count de Monet at April 18, 2011 02:26 PM (XBM1t)

That's why Al-gore invented the internet.  He knew that the more technology expanded, the easier it would be for the Gov't to hide shit and allow him to make that much more money.

Brilliance, I tell you.....

148

127

If the debt ceiling isn't raised the US goes into default putting an end to the phrase full faith and credit of the US and the end of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.

The US goes into defaut when it fails to make interest payments on its debt.  The US government takes money in all the time.  Default only happens if the government does not react to a hard debt limit.

Which is a safe assumption given the arrogant morons we have in power and their legions of something-for-nothing voters. 

149 142, Cool, I'll bing it, see what I find. Any hints on where to find the actual bill broken down for non-legalese speakers?

150 The better the tax software gets, the crazier the shit Congress will write into the tax code.  After all, no one is painfully sweating out doing it themselves anymore.

Give up the software and hire a CPA.  That way, you can just ignore the whole process and hope that that the fairy-fucking-godmother causes some miracle to happen and it won't be as bad as you really already know it is.  That way, when the inevitable 60-day letter comes from the IRS saying that you owe still more, you can think to yourself, at least for a moment, "hey, maybe I won something!"

151 Remember folks.  47% of the US population is on the government tit one way or the other.  This is going to be a hard nut to crack.

152 151 The better the tax software gets, the crazier the shit Congress will write into the tax code.  After all, no one is painfully sweating out doing it themselves anymore.

Give up the software and hire a CPA.  That way, you can just ignore the whole process and hope that that the fairy-fucking-godmother causes some miracle to happen and it won't be as bad as you really already know it is.  That way, when the inevitable 60-day letter comes from the IRS saying that you owe still more, you can think to yourself, at least for a moment, "hey, maybe I won something!"

Posted by: Me no likey at April 18, 2011 02:30 PM (8/DeP)

The situation is more more ironic than typical.  I am a freakin' CPA, but not in the tax prep field.  Pride is at stake here.

153

Posted by: Havedash at April 18, 2011 02:27 PM (sFD5n)

I'd agree with you, but I think that the time when a revolution would have been effective is long past.  The vast majority of people don't know and and cannot even remotely conceive of surviving without government... even many who despise government.

- More than 1/6 of Americans depend on government welfare programs to survive. In other news today, handouts exceed taxes for the first time since 1936.

- There are a vast amount of private industries that exist only because of government regulation (ex. many accountants, attorneys, various compliance firms).

- Public sector jobs make up, IIRC, more than half of American jobs.

- Under Obama ALL student loans are attached to the federal government, as opposed to most of them previously.  

I am more in the "Go Galt" camp. Let the parasites starve and eat themselves. Anything we do to intervene or correct the system only enables it to survive longer.

Let it all burn and throw as much gasoline on the fire as possible. When it burns out, we'll still know how to make things work and we can start over unimpeded.

154 They said the Planned Parenthood issue was political too. WTF? They don't think something can just be money first and foremost, and politics, unlike them, is of secondary concern if at all? I don't really care about the politics of PP or NPR, I consider them to be 'luxuries' that this house can no longer afford, like cutting back on movies or restaurants. F the 'politics'

155 Why can't we just make those evil corporations pay like we do the unions?

Like take away their benefits, or will they pass it on to the taxpayers and shit?

Derp?

156 #133 you have uninsured motorist coverage with a lower 'deductible' than your collision deductible. Your situation has gone on for decades so it's not some new sign of the times.

157

Late to the party here, so this will probably be ignored.

I re-charted the graph with my own approximates.  It says there is 5.62Trillion in taxable income.  Total.

Is that even enough?  I mean 100% of $5.62Trillion.  Everyone's taxable income...  Do we have to start talking about all REVENUE (meanin, no deductions whatsoever) to fix this crap???

Here's the data I approximated from the graph:

0 0.001 1-5k 0.005 5-10k 0.007 10-15K 0.015 15-20K 0.040 20-25K 0.060 25-30K 0.100 30-40K 0.250 40-50K 0.290 50-75K 0.750 75-100K 0.680 100-200K 1.350 200-500K 0.790 500K-1M 0.340 1-1.5M 0.150 1.5-2M 0.090 2-5M 0.220 5-10M 0.130 10M+ 0.350     Total 5.618

158

And that would imply everyone taking loans to cover their deductions.

159 142, Cool, I'll bing it, see what I find. Any hints on where to find the actual bill broken down for non-legalese speakers?

Posted by: Burl Ives drug addled heirs at April 18, 2011 02:30 PM (cDRYC)

That bill is pretty straightforward but it does require you to be familiar with those working papers. You can find links to the working papers at the Fair Tax site. 

I read the book and the best part of the book is the Q&A part at the back. 99% of the book itself did nothing but describe what is wrong with the current tax code. That was a waste of space for most people.

I read the working papers and I did a bunch of sample tax calculations using the current (at that time) tax code vs what the average person would pay using the fair tax. For almost everyone who actually pays taxes it is a huge tax increase all the way up to about $500,000/yr.

For people who are already retired it is a HUGE ripoff because you get zero benefit from elimination of the withholding tax while paying maximum on the double tax of your savings when you spend it.

As you are reading the bill look for the things that are exempted from the tax while looking at things that are NOT exempted.

Also note that all those "poor" who have no skin in the game will still have no skin in the game because the government will still send them their monthly dole to offset what they pay in sales tax.

160

Just one fucking half-ass honest person to ask the questions that need to be asked.   To. his. face.

Yeah, remember before he ran for president, his only charitable donation was to his racist Church of Wright, and even then it was about 2%.

161

BTW, today a Zerohedge we find the Fed has been secretly hedging the market for 30-year Treasuries, i.e., selling puts at inflation rates of 4 & 5%.

Obvious to all, they were the numero purchaser of 10-year and shorter maturity notes but gave the appearance of leaving the long term market alone.

This left the public to believe the 'bond vigilanties' were copacetic with 30-year notes paying 4.7%.  Oh you silly plebes.

Yes, you get to pay the banks once inflation, since Feb 2010 running a mere 2.7% breaches the dikes.  Sucks to be you.

162

@145: "This is it people.  The end of the road."

Nah, that's long passed.  We're even beyond the "Here be monsters!" fringe of the map.

"If we have any hope whatsoever of salvaging this country, we are going to have to do more than just light up pixels on a screen!"

We don't, and no one will.  Enjoy the present misery - the future will be terrible.

163 The point you silly conservatives miss is that Obama only wants to raise the top tax rate back to 39.6 from 35% on income over $250,000.  Assume a 5% increase in the tax rate and that economic agents do not modify their behavior astax rates rise, and do the math:

   0.05 times $1.89 trillion =    $94 billion/year in extra tax revenues.

Obviously this will close the deficit......................................even a $1.6 trillion deficit.

Obama is a magician!

164

@162: "Yeah, remember before he ran for president, his only charitable donation was to his racist Church of Wright, and even then it was about 2%."

Look, playa, I donated a valuable bust of Churchill to the British, I donated our military to al-Qaida in Libya, I donated our economy to the Glorious Socialist Utopia...what have *you* given that's valuable? 

165 If I made $100,000 a year, I could pay 50% in taxes and still live in extreme comfort.  At the moment I only make $36,000 and have been able to SAVE $10,000 a year for the past two years to put towards a new car the first year and a down payment on a house the second year.  I don't have children.  I'm sure they eat up quite a bit of income, but $200 a week?  The point is moot anyway, because I don't believe for a second that any plan involves a federal tax rate of 50% for anyone that makes $100,000.

166

" I only make $36,000 and have been able to SAVE $10,000 a year for the past two years to put towards a new car the first year and a down payment on a house the second year."

We might just live in rural NE. 

167

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