1 Unholey water wont work!

2 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

3 Mr. President, when should I expect your call?

4 Also- this is a perfect (and on-topic) opportunity to shill for my blog- especially my current series of posts.

Ace, I expect you're a conservative because you- like everyone else- knows that some things are "Right" and others are "Wrong" in some objective, non-debatable manner.  Liberals act contrary to that premise.  In general.

5 Holy water beats unholy water. Do they not know that fact?

6

I'm apathetic when it comes to religion, but I find the rabid atheists to be extremely annoying.

 

7 Holy water beats unholy water. Do they not know that fact?

Besides, the Church had already one-upped their 'unholy water' with the combination of Holy Water and an actual benediction.  Take that, sukkas!

8 In my experience, the majority of the most anti-religious people have no personal experience of religion. Yet, they claim authority from their ignorance; guised as being "uncontaminated by dogma." As an empiricist, I embrace Christianity for the simple reason that it works very well for people who embrace it.

9 If you hate someone or something, you might as well be loving it because you are thinking about it just the same.

10 Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us.
Above us only sky.

11 Hey, John, if there is no heaven, why do we need to "imagine" that there is no heaven?

12 There are no Atheists in a foxhole

13 Posted by: John Lennon at March 19, 2012 12:47 PM


You wrote some good songs. That dreck is not among them.

14 From past experience, I'd tend to say that "atheist" is usually a short-hand way of saying "attention-seeking anti-Christian douchebag".

There are true atheists and then there are the people who, by and large, claim that mantle.

15

"What it seems like is a lot of teenager-ish acting up, a lot of anger over hurts in the formative years, a seething need to get payback against faceless oppressors."

 

This here ^

The Left has lots of Daddy issues. America is "Daddy."

 

 

16 I've been thinking about Tom Wolfe's "Radical Chic" concept and I think that's really what underlies all these liberalish "identities" - Militant Atheists, Feminists, Racialists, etc Radical Chic It's just - you might be ugly, dim and boring, but The Cause! and you are magically now Intelligent and Kewl.

17 It's just - you might be ugly, dim and boring, but The Cause! and you are magically now Intelligent and Kewl.

And they treat it like carte blanche to be assholes to everyone, as believing that your actions further The Cause means that you aren't supposed to be held accountable.

18

 

12 There are no Atheists in a foxhole -------------------- or during Finals

19 "'atheist' is usually a short-hand way of saying 'attention-seeking anti-Christian douchebag.' There are true atheists and then there are the people who, by and large, claim that mantle." There needs to be a separate word for the atheist a-holes to distinguish them from the casual atheists. I usually call them 'Theophobes.'

20 It's just - you might be ugly, dim and boring, but The Cause! and you are magically now Intelligent and Kewl.

***

As cool as a bottle laid by in a mountain stream.

21 Too many militant atheists seem to me to be nothing more than people who resented their parents making them get up for church on Sundays and continue to lash out.

Of course, residual teenage pathos might explain quite a bit of the modern world and politics....

22 Shouldn't that be a-holy water, given they're a-theists? Or are they saying they're unholy and not really atheistic after all? Silly evangelical atheists.

23 >>>Ace, I expect you're a conservative because you- like everyone else- knows that some things are "Right" and others are "Wrong" in some objective, non-debatable manner. Liberals act contrary to that premise. Yannow, I don't really think so. I've never been one for this "Moral Clarity" thing. Honestly, I see the world as morally ambiguous. Here's my thing, which you may label as extraordinary cynical or whatever. When we're talking about America vs., say, Islam, just to create a completely fanciful hypothetical -- although I think there is in fact a lot of Moral Clarity there, I think it's kind of besides the point. Let's suppose the world is just as morally gray as liberal say. In that case, why should I not simply take my own kinsman's side in the dispute? If "both sides are wrong," why should I not prefer my own side? I don't know if I've expressed that right. I suppose I'm trying to say that in some things, I don't really know that "morality" enters into it, as a primary matter. It may enter into it on the back end -- to retroactively justify a course we've already decided to take. If a bear attacks me, I'm going to try to kill the bear (assuming I have a gun). We can talk about how this is a "moral" position; I don't really understand why you'd even have to discuss such a thing.

24

Great post, ace.  You are one of the few atheists that I don't immediately want to smash into a lifeless bitch-puddle.

 

Like Christopher Hitchens and Matt Damon.

25 Polk County is a bit of an embarrassment to Florida. And that's saying a lot.

26 >>>Too many militant atheists seem to me to be nothing more than people who resented their parents making them get up for church on Sundays and continue to lash out. I really think this is 90% of political leaning, your relationship with your parents and your relationship with your classmates in middle school.

27 You aren't making the distinction between "atheists," who don't believe there's any God or gods, and "Atheists" such as these clowns, who actually DO believe in God, but hate Him. You're in the former group - as was I for many years. During that time I regarded religion as a superstition, but thought that if it moderated the worst of human behavior for most adherents, and helped the troubled make it through the day, it was, on balance, a beneficial practice. These clowns, however, have a very pronounced hate. If there were no God, thry'd invent Him on their own, just for the same of indulging themselves.

28 True atheists wouldn't do crap like this.  As an atheist myself, it does not concern me what religious people do in their churches or even praying before eating a meal in public.  I don't care.  I can go to a church and attend a wedding, sitting through a half-sermon in the process and it wouldn't phase me.  Why?  Because I already KNOW that stuff doesn't work on me, so I don't need to be a dick-ish asshole about it.  I'm comfortable in my atheist skin and don't feel the burning need to be vengeful about it like these assholes are.

29 How exactly did they determine that it was UN-holy water?

30

"For those liberals and atheists who are sure that *atheism* causes such social ills as racism, hatred of America's enemies, and conservatism -- well, I'm atheist. Religion had nothing to do with it."

 

I think you meant "religion" there, Ace.

31

>>You know who really killed JFK?

>>Religion.

Was a codified belief system, certainly.

32 Who would have heard of Dawkins if he didn't make a name for himself as  Atheist Moses?

33

The telling difference between the two acts is thier root cause. For the first act, the church group's intent was to pray to protect the town from criminal elements.  The atheists' action on the other hand, was basically a rejection of this act aimed directly at those who placed the blessing in the first place. The Atheist's actions serve no purpose than to piss off the people who placed the blessing. That qualifies by my reckoning as a "dick move."

34

Ace, God can work through people whether they believe him to be or not.  Just sayin'.

35 Waiting to see the to-do list of their Saudi chapter. 

If there's a religion devotion that is malignant, is would be Islam, seems to me.  Until they are as active against a false, destructive, and dangerous religion, anything they do about one that doesn't retaliate with beheadings really doesn't count in my book.

36 They're actually doing Alinskyism here.

And Alinsky doesn't always work.  In fact, more often than not, Alinsyism backfires, especially if it's obvious that meanspiritedness is behind the mockery.

37

I tell liberals all the time:

 

I can defend every conservative stance I take without ever having to refer to the bible or religion.

38 Right, Ace, you're an "atheist" in the same way that Andrew Sullivan is a "conservative."   And like Clarence Thomas is "black."  You conceal your Jesus-love and general godbaggery so that real atheists can be fooled into thinking bigotry and logic can co-exist. But they can't.  Ultimately, your conservative principles are rooted in the authoritarian, religious principle that people need to be controlled by a powerful force outside themselves.   Like Rutherford B. Hayes, you reject real science and true progress to protect the interests of the entrenched ruling class.

39 For those liberals and atheists who are sure that atheism causes such social ills as racism, hatred of America's enemies, and conservatism -- well, I'm atheist. Religion had nothing to do with it.

I'm not reading this right...is that first "atheism" supposed to be "religion"?

40 If a bear attacks me, I'm going to try to kill the bear (assuming I have a gun). ------------------------------ Why would a bear try to kill YOU? They know fratricide is wrong.

41 Good analysis.  I am one of those people who has been on both sides of these arguments.  Past experience as being both rabidly liberal has made me much more comfortable identifying my conservatism as being the right place.  Likewise, I have been both rabidly pro and anti-religion in my life.  The only thing I can say to athiests is that I suspect you haven't finished thinking this stuff through.  I don't fault you for that, but I do pray you find your peace someday.  I mean that sincerely. 

42 True atheists wouldn't do crap like this.Posted by: EC

Don't you mean no true Scottish atheists?

43

29True atheists wouldn't do crap like this. As an atheist myself, it does not concern me what religious people do in their churches or even praying before eating a meal in public. I don't care. I can go to a church and attend a wedding, sitting through a half-sermon in the process and it wouldn't phase me. Why? Because I already KNOW that stuff doesn't work on me, so I don't need to be a dick-ish asshole about it. I'm comfortable in my atheist skin and don't feel the burning need to be vengeful about it like these assholes are.

----------

Yes, that. As an agnostic, what the church does is of no more concern than watching a rain dance.

44 <<How exactly did they determine that it was UN-holy water?>>

They Unblessed it with 7Up the uncola.

45 Looks like a Shurflo pump, which reminds me I need to get mine fixed.

The Atheist Left: christianty bad, other religions (esp. islam) noble and peaceful defenders against western hegemony.
Saw this attitude way too fucking much in my agnostic/atheist readings.
One of the reasons I turned to the right.

46 Why would a bear try to kill YOU? They know fratricide is wrong she wasn't trying to kill him, he just misinterpreted her advances

47 Don't you mean no true Scottish atheists?

Huh?

48

Think of the arrogance of insignificant people, on and insignificant little planet way out on the spiral arm of a minor galaxy thinking they know the secrets of the universe so well they can proclaim there is no higher power.

 

The furthest  a truly open mind could go from religion is agnosticism.

49 Dog parks=butt sex=atheism

50 You didn't need to make a long post about this subject.

Simple: They are assholes.

There are assholes everywhere whether they are religious or not.  These assholes just had to have the last word. We all know people like that, don't we?  (curious)

51 Suppose we got a vat of Christian water and tried to wash the Islam off a highway.

52 "Here lies an athiest. All dressed up and no place to go"

- epitaph on a tombstone in Thurmont, MD

53

Don't the people who washed this highway with "unholy water" have to believe in God in order to try to counteract him?  This doesn't strike me as aetheism, it's strikes  me more as satanist.

54 29, 46, exactly, and I keep talking with other people who express this precise point. I cannot find atheists I actually know who think this hard about religion at all. I mean, we're actually Living the Dream -- that is, living the atheist dream of not having to worry ourselves too much about religion. These Church of Atheism guys are plainly consumed by religion. So how did they benefit from this exchange?

55

"In that case, why should I not simply take my own kinsman's side in the dispute? If "both sides are wrong," why should I not prefer my own side?"

 

See: The Cold War & The Left.

 

 They were on wrong side of the most significant global struggle of the 20th century - the "wrong side" including taking no side.

56 >>There needs to be a separate word for the atheist a-holes to distinguish them from the casual atheists. I usually call them 'Theophobes.'

Then there's the Evangelical Atheists. It's not enough to not believe themselves, they have to actively disparage others from believing. Or even hearing about it.

57 Yeah, get back to me when you spray the local mosque on a Friday around noon.

58 Militant Atheists like these folks sure have a lot of hatred and animosity towards an entity that they claim doesn't exist.

Ironically, God still loves *them*.

59 My belief in God and his commandments is all that stands between all of you and either a mass grave or a lifetime of toil at EoJ Industrial Battery Factory #6. You'd think they'd be thanking Him.

60 One up on you: IÂ’m atheist, agnostic, Deist, or Catholic depending on the day of the week. The other three days IÂ’m an anarcho-syndilauperist.

61 There are non-believers, and anti-believers.

62 60 Yeah, get back to me when you spray the local mosque on a Friday around noon.

Posted by: mama winger at March 19, 2012 12:58 PM (P6QsQ)

+1000

63 Militant insert-cause-here isn't generally intellectually curious. For example, rabid environmentalists don't know the first thing about global warming, yet they believe. It's a sad irony that the rabid atheist has only faith to support the claim that there is no god. For someone to be perfectly honest about the situation there isn't proof either way.

64 22 Shouldn't that be a-holy water, given they're a-theists? Or are they saying they're unholy and not really atheistic after all? Silly evangelical atheists.

Posted by: J. Random Dudes phone at March 19, 2012 12:51 PM (kMkiH)

 

 

Should just have used plain old water, at lukewarm temperature.

65 It always amuses me how certain groups of athiests (such as these in this article) take religious acts that have absolutely nothing to do with them as such personal affronts. The highway was not blessed in order to condemn those who don't believe, yet the retribution by this group was a direct condemnation of other's beliefs. Hypocrisy at it's finest. You'd think those so enlightened and freed of the bonds of religion would be able to laugh off things like highway blessings instead of acting like petulant children.

66 >>> You didn't need to make a long post about this subject. >>>Simple: They are assholes. Yeah I did and your brief statement isn't as effective. Honestly, if you want to really hurt someone, you hit them where it hurts, right? These guys think they're rational. I'm telling them they're not. Just saying they're assholes doesn't really hurt them. They'd just say "Oh of course you'd think that.' But attack someone's cherished self-flattery? Their core vanity? That hurts. This is like with Bill Maher. I never call him hateful. He knows he's hateful and he's comfortable with that. I call him unfunny and untalented. Because he is. But I call him that because that can hurt him whereas "hateful" doesn't.

67 Nice essay, Ace.  

Nitpick - looks like you have a typo in this paragraph: 

For those liberals and atheists who are sure that atheism causes such social ills as racism, hatred of America's enemies, and conservatism -- well, I'm atheist. Religion had nothing to do with it.

68 One up on you: IÂ’m atheist, agnostic, Deist, or Catholic depending on the day of the week. yeah me three, but add Swedenborgian and Buddhist. If we split Deist and Theist, I can be something different each of the seven days!

69 So how do athiest leftists work their way around their love for Islam and muslims?

Simple; lefties do not consider Islam to be a religion, they consider it to be a culture, and all cultures must be respected equally

70 There are no atheists in Dolphin's huddles.

71 "50 Don't you mean no true Scottish atheists? Huh?" It's a reference to this, a favorite of internet atheists: "No true Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule."

72 >The other three days IÂ’m an anarcho-syndilauperist.

Cause girls, they wanna have fuh-un.

73 So how did they benefit from this exchange?

Posted by: ace at March 19, 2012 12:57 PM (nj1bB)

Attention whores.

74

No 50:

 

He is referring to the "no true scotsman" logical fallacy, where the argument goes:

 

Person 1:  Group X did "something bad"

Person 2:  Thats not possible, because someone from group X would NEVER be able to do that.

 

 

75 The thing about faith is you don't get the proof until after you choose to believe. Christianity is sort of like what Pelosi said about ObamaCare; you have to embrace it before you find out what's in it.

76 On one side you have the douche-tastic group of "Christians" the Westborough Baptist Church, oth the other side you have the duche-tastic group of "Atheists" these loons. Can't we just toss both groups in a sack, let them kill each other and shoot what ever crawls out alive?

77 60

mama winger,

Truer words have never been spoken. 

The atheists know the Christians and the Jews would never physically attack them for a stupid stunt like this but pull this shit on a Muslim at a mosque?  Dead man walking. I imagine they would find G-d pretty fast.

78 So my atheist sister and  her rabidly atheist recently ex-husband are as of today grandparents to a baby born to radical atheist pissed off san francisco libtards. The mother, an israeli atheist, gives the baby a hebrew biblical name. My sister, stupidity-induced atheist says the name isn't "jewish". I just sent her the hebrew bible passage. Then I laughed.

79 >>>It always amuses me how certain groups of athiests (such as these in this article) take religious acts that have absolutely nothing to do with them as such personal affronts. I don't understand why they just can't see this as a "nice sentiment." Even if you don't believe in the power of prayer, can't prayer just be viewed as a nice sentiment? And what's wrong with that? If someone prays for me (someday!), I'll say "Thanks, that's a nice thing." Whether I believe the prayer has any capacity to do anything as a primary matter is besides the point. As a *secondary* matter, it did something -- it made me feel nice.

80

From the sidebar:

 

Inspectors Struggle To Find Missing Missiles In Libya.
They can only account for 5,000 of 20,000 MANPADS so far. [CDR M]       MANPADS????

81 I've got Islam all over me!! Atheists, help me!!! Help me!!!

82 Did they also say, "no backsies!" while spraying the unholy water, just in case someone came back and tried to bless the highway again?

83 Because plain water is unlike rain? Was it a covered highway?

84 69

Point take Ace.

85 Cause girls, they wanna have fuh-un. I thought it was the hat full of stars.

86 take = taken

87

I'm not willing to concede even moral equivalency with these jerks.  If they are going to go on about the Crusades, etc, I'm coming back with the actual facts.  The most brain dead cliche is the old "more have been killed in the name of religion..."

To which the reply is:

Waht religion was behind the Holocost, the Cultural Revolution, The Gulag Archipelago, The Killing Fields?  Oh, yeah, they were atheists.  Get back to me when you can come up with something to match those numbers.

 

88 In that case, why should I not simply take my own kinsman's side in the dispute? If "both sides are wrong," why should I not prefer my own side?

Well, that's true.  But it's true the other way, too.  So if "both sides are wrong" on (say) the divide between Socialism and Capitalism, what good is it to cry that Obama (for instance) is a Socialist?  Just because we don't like it?  For those who are trying to decide between Obama and the Republicans, "because it's what I like" isn't a very convincing argument- especially when "what we like" is liable to cause them much more inconvenience (or they believe that it will, even if it wouldn't) than what Obama proposes.

Also- just because you have to go through, later, and sort through why something was (or was not) moral doesn't mean you didn't know in the first place.  We know the Right from Wrong so well that we often know if something is moral or immoral on a gut level, long before our brain catches up.

In your example of a bear trying to eat you- of course you're not thinking, right then, about the morality (either way) of defending yourself.  But neither do you think about he morality (either way) of not robbing a bank (for instance) until your attention is called to it.  Just because it's not front of mind doesn't mean it isn't a foundational principle.

But, then, you may be one of the people who agrees I should be able to brain you with a rock, just because I want to.

89 Hey Ace, the Jews get all riled up when the Mormons convert their souls posthumously. So are you going to post about how "evangelical" his religion is too?

90 Inspectors Struggle To Find Missing Missiles In Libya.They can only account for 5,000 of 20,000 MANPADS so far. [CDR M]



MANPADS???? Posted by: Truman North

Truman,

You get a free box of MANPADS! with every purchase of a pair of Mantyhose.

91 Whats the saying.. 'If I am wrong about God.. no harm done.. if you are wrong.. big problem".

92 94 Mandaids.

93 "I don't understand why they just can't see this as a nice sentiment. "

Exactly. What mean-spirited jerks are offended at a desire for safety, and even *gasp* less drug abuse? One would think that these are things we can all easily agree on.

You have work to be very obtuse to actually suggest that the blessing is meant to make people feel unwelcomed.

Logic pretzel.

94 "You aren't making the distinction between "atheists," who don't believe there's any God or gods, and "Atheists" such as these clowns, who actually DO believe in God, but hate Him."

I hear this a lot, and I've never liked hearing it.

This is like saying that the first Christians who would tear down idols of Diana, deep down, believed in Diana; that the iconoclasts, deep down, believed that portraits of Saint Mary would defeat the Saracen in battle; that some pastor who burns the Qur'an is secretly a Muslim.

These capital-A Atheists don't believe in God; they believe that Christians exist, though, and they like to provoke them. As to why the Atheists hate Christians, I suspect that childhood experiences account for a lot. (It needn't be daddy issues as such.)

95 The one thing I fucking notice about evangelical atheist is they never seem to wanna insult Islam. Why the fuck is that?

96 93 Hey Ace, the Jews get all riled up when the Mormons convert their souls posthumously. So are you going to post about how "evangelical" his religion is too?

Posted by: Tom in Telluride at March 19, 2012 01:04 PM (GeR9N)

 

That was covered a long time ago. Try to keep up. I'm sure it's hard for you.

97 One up on you: IÂ’m atheist, agnostic, Deist, or Catholic depending on the day of the week.

The other three days IÂ’m an anarcho-syndilauperist.

***

I was a sadistic, equus-bestiality necrophiliac but then I realized that I was just beating a dead horse.

98

Two quotes apply here

"When man ceases to struggle he does not become a philosopher, he becomes a brute" Malthus

 

"When man no longer believes in God, he does not believe in nothing, he believes in anything"

99 Words.  Lots of them.

100

"Just saying they're assholes doesn't really hurt them. They'd just say "Oh of course you'd think that.'  But attack someone's cherished self-flattery? Their core vanity? That hurts."

 

That's why I don't bother accusing reporters or media outlets of "being biased." I call them "unprofessional." Target their professional integrity. Failing to check your work for bias is indeed unprofessional, and the the label stings more.  

101 Modern American Atheism is perma-teens rebelling (endlessly) against perceived authority.

102 24
Great post, ace. You are one of the few atheists that I don't immediately want to smash into a lifeless bitch-puddle.

Like Christopher Hitchens and Matt Damon.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 19, 2012 12:51 PM (eJkKU)

E of J why are you better than me at writing what I am thinking??

103

Be honest. The plan was always the lifetime of toil, followed by the mass grave.<<<

 

Would everyone on the Protected Rolls please raise your hand?

 

Put your hand down, Brother Cavil.

104 haha....that'll keep them busy!!!

105 If a bear attacks me, I'm going to try to kill the bear (assuming I have a gun). We can talk about how this is a "moral" position; I don't really understand why you'd even have to discuss such a thing.


Morality comes into it because we interact and make judgements on what to do.  

Say I'm a 3rd party watching you getting attacked by a bear - should I watch you fight, help you, or help the bear?   

If it's just you and the bear, then it's just survival of the fittest.  Stronger being lives, loser gets eaten.    Once you add a 2nd human into the mix, we deal with the question of the value of a human's life, and what duty a human has to another human (if any). 

When you look at the system of law, that's what it is - 3rd party making judgement on the actions of two parties.   We do it all the time; it's our normal, and that's the question morality is concerned with. 

106 Most atheist evangelism, if you choose to call it that, takes the form of a joke. By aping the rituals of the religious (Blessing a highway with holy water? Burying magical bricks? REALLY?) atheists draw attention to how inherently ridiculous those rituals and dogma are. Evangelism of any kind is in poor taste, but on the whole I prefer atheists who use mockery to those who proselytize angrily.

107 Those kind of intolerant, hate-filled fools are so irrational, they should be carefully watched. They are not only dangers to themselves, but to us. oh you know my father-in-law then!

108 I'm starting to get your point Ace. Maybe if you expound further?

109 The one thing I fucking notice about evangelical atheist is they never seem to wanna insult Islam.

Why the fuck is that?

Posted by: Mr Pink at March 19, 2012 01:06 PM (FtdJQ)

 

The last atheist who tried that got smacked down by the judge who was hearing the assault case of the Muslim who attacked him.

110 >>>When man no longer believes in God, he does not believe in nothing, he believes in anything" That's a great quote and it's true of some people, certainly. There are a lot of people who do this -- they reject organized western religion then get into some kind of farcical hodgepodge of yoga's mystical aspects and pyramid power and so forth. But a lot of people don't believe in anything that isn't firmly evidenced. You can't say, for example, that Penn Gillette believes a lot of hokey things.

111 dagny, it wasn't covered in the context of the atheists washing away the holy water. The Mormons are trying to wash away the stain of Judaism. Try to make a principled distinction between the two situations.

112 The funny part is that God exists whether these pinheads believe in Him or not. He really doesn't care too much,although the mocking can certainly get one into trouble, and He would probably prefer that His creation all ends up in heaven.


But, free will is a great gift which is abused regularly by the recipients, and He really isn't about to reign that in. If He did, wouldn't be much of a God, and He is, so folks continue to march lockstep into hell by their own choosing.

113 Lemme get this straight---they can use water to wash away something that they don't believe even exists, an act which any reasonable person would see as wasteful. But every time I turn around there's some little "green" pamphlet or TV spot telling my kids that if mommy takes a long shower or dad lets the water run while brushing his teeth, we're all committing some horrible offense against the planet. Riiiight.

114 The Force IS a religion.

115 Say I'm a 3rd party watching you getting attacked by a bear - should I watch you fight, help you, or help the bear?
---
Record video and upload to You Tube. No other intervention is appropriate.

116

63 -

 

My Cindi spells her name with a C...   SPLITTER!!!

117

Heh, its ALL holy water bitches.

118 Traci Lords works in Mysterious ways.

119 ConservativeMonster, conceded. I overstated. I'm actually not sure what I was saying in that comment. I have an idea of what I mean but I didn't express it well, because I haven't really figured out the full idea. You're right, I dismissed Moral thinking a lot more than was correct or even more than I intended. I sorta-halfway know what I meant, but I'm obviously not quite there yet.

120 Heh heh. Obviously those comments on atheism (113) are mine, and not Rick Santorum's.

121 But what motivates the Church of Atheism is this stupid, emotional, brain-dead impulse towards reductivism. You know what causes war? Religion. You know what causes hate? Religion.

They never think: You know what also causes war and hate?  Money, tradition, food, water, insults, marriage, race, customs, etc. etc. etc.

122 Their hatred for religion tells me that they actually believe in it, this is their way of lashing out against it in anger.


An example, I don't believe in Buddhism, and I have NEVER felt the need to disparage the religion or  mock those who do. 

If it's all "fairy tales", why do you care so much?

123 Coming from someone who worships C3PO this post seems a bit weird. I mean, princess Leia I get, but the golden Santorum? I think not.

124 Has anyone ever done a credible statistical study of how atheists fare in an islamist sharia controlled society?

It might be a shortcut recruiting tool to steal votes from the Leftist muzzie cuddlers, since no matter how distasteful the godless might find Christian bible thumpers, it's pretty damn near impossible to taste anything after a scimitar haircut.

125 I'm just glad that aetheists are in the minority in this world (and that's  not counting the fucking muzzies).

126 You know what causes hate? Religion.

Actually, hate is usually caused by pricks.

127 Many atheists seem to believe that the 1st amendment makes atheism the state religion.

128 >>>You can't say, for example, that Penn Gillette believes a lot of hokey things. Nuh-huh. He believes that Moxie CrimeFighter is a good name for a little girl. I'd call that pretty hokey.

129 MANPADS????

Posted by: Truman North at March 19, 2012 01:02 PM (I2LwF)

 

 

Putting the "men" in "menstruation"?  I imagine sensitive hipster types wearing these to better understand their girlfriends' periods. 

130

Iconoclasts are destroyers of Christian art. I don't think they carried portraits of Saint Mary into battle with the Saracens.

Perhaps you meant that Catholics carried icons of the Holy Virgin Mary before them into battle with the Saracen? Or even the Greek or Russian Orthodox? Because icons were uncommon in western christianity. Because we are not gnostics we really see no problem with having a painting of Mary or our grandmother because she was a real person. Same goes for Jesus and his buddies. They aren't worshipped but are adored as memorials. Like the flag.

131 All zealots are annoying.

Including atheist zealots.

132

You know who really killed JFK?

Religion.

 

Ancient Aliens. Duh.

 

Even if you don't believe in the power of prayer, can't prayer just be viewed as a nice sentiment? And what's wrong with that?

If someone prays for me (someday!), I'll say "Thanks, that's a nice thing."

You, the cob-loggers, the Horde in general and a few specific people are in my prayers every day.  Mainly it's in the thank you for the hive of scum and villany but also for health and safety and peace.  I figure it cannot possibly hurt to pray for all y'all.

 

133 well... Moxie is not a bad name at all, and the middle name can just be "C."

134 Posted by: Jordan at March 19, 2012 01:12 PM (RSG1I)

Hi Jordan. Is the Texas Legislature still in session?

135 It's because everything has to be kick ass and extreme.

You can't just sit back and believe what you believe.  You've got to take it to the next level and go EXTREME!!!!!

Everybody just sucks.

136 123: I did not expect that comment.

137 " Anything "green," anything anti-capitalist, anything that fills his spiritual void - and it never works. " - Posted by: my two cents at March 19, 2012 01:09 PM (HOOye) ---------------------- I have often suspected that what burns inside these Theophobes is that, deep down, they know they're missing out on something deep and important. Their hostility is born of resentment against those who have it.

138 An example, I don't believe in Buddhism, and I have NEVER felt the need to disparage the religion or mock those who do. -- ++ -- The Eightfold Path is dark, dank and no at all pleasant.

139 I'm telling you, most of the militant atheists are gay. If they aren't overtly they are latently and are pissed about that. Who do they blame?

140

Whoa, Ace! Calm down, my brother!

 

Clearly you are very upset about this, and you're not making a whole lot of sense. You seem to be demonizing atheists in general, and then say you are one, but are different? That doesn't even seem consistent.

 

To make sense of this, first let me point out that having a club or society of atheistist, is kind of like having one for people who don't have cats. What does one do? Sit around talking about how glad you are you don't ever have to change a litter box?

 

That being said, let me contradict myself. Atheists are demonized within religious faiths as being inherently immoral, since the religious authorities lack the intellect and imagination to realize that ethics can be derived in any manner but supernaturally. So the only real cause for atheists to have associations is for protection from those guys. I suppose a certain amount of lashing out is understandable, but this instance is just juvenile.

 

What's really going on here is that about 60% of atheists are liberals, and this certainly reeks of liberal behavior. The fact that the term Humanist was used confirms it. I might have joined those guys myself, but their socialist leanings repulsed me.

141 WTF is "unholy" water?

142 91 I'm not willing to concede even moral equivalency with these jerks. If they are going to go on about the Crusades, etc, I'm coming back with the actual facts. The most brain dead cliche is the old "more have been killed in the name of religion..."

My libtard sister gave me that stupid fucking line once and I said "Sis, there have been more people killed in the name of Government (commuinst, nazi, etc) than religion.  She shut up.

143 >>Because icons were uncommon in western christianity.

And statuary is unheard of in Eastern Christendom, but there's little effective difference.  Traditional icons are making a come back in the RC church, though.

144 I'm starting to get your point Ace. Maybe if you expound further?

Don't encourage him.

145

They doth protesteth too mucheth or some kind of shiteth.

 

146 The Eightfold Path is dark, dank and no at all pleasant.

Posted by: Richard Gere's Gerbil at March 19, 2012 01:15 PM (DoEQ2)

 

 

 

You think you've got problems?

147 Hmmm... What does the Koran say about Atheists?

148

Nuh-huh. He believes that Moxie CrimeFighter is a good name for a little girl. I'd call that pretty hokey.

 

Moxie is a kickass girl's name. Crimefighter not so much. 

 

Annnd now I have Short Skirt Long Jacket stuck in my head - she's changing her name for Kitty to Karen . . . . .

149

According to the Bible, true religion is taking care of widows and orphans.  Why do the atheists hate widows and orphans?

150

Lesseee. Religion offers the possiblility of everlasting life. Atheism offers.....well......nothing.

No brainer.

151 When's the last time you heard of a militant atheist railing against Bah'Hai's, Hindus, Sikhs, Shintoists, Buddhists or Odinists?

The evangelical atheist-activists really only engage in activism against Christians and Jews.  They are very selective in which God they do not believe.

152 >>What does the Koran say about Atheists?

They wipe with their right hand.

153 118 dagny, it wasn't covered in the context of the atheists washing away the holy water. The Mormons are trying to wash away the stain of Judaism. Try to make a principled distinction between the two situations.

Posted by: Tom in Telluride at March 19, 2012 01:10 PM (GeR9N)

 

Fucking spare me. The mormons are trying to give them everlasting life not "wash away the stain of judiasm". That's ridiculous. Also we have covered here, ad infinidum, the mormons and the jewish baptism. It's old. Try to keep up.

154
They never think: You know what also causes war and hate? Money, tradition, food, water, insults, marriage, race, customs, etc. etc. etc.

Posted by: Bang Out Of Order at March 19, 2012 01:12 PM (1H47k)


There is a common element to all of humanity's problems:   Humans.   

But no, the REAL cause of our troubles is money/religion/America/traditions/the West/etc.  

155 If it's all "fairy tales", why do you care so much?

Perhaps deep inside lives the niggling doubt that the believers are right, and the unbeliever will find out too late he should have surrendered himself to that higher power.

156 You'll never find an atheist insulting a moslum like that.

So brave, these atheists, attacking only the targets they know won't ever defend themselves.

They tilt at windmill dragons but are too chikenshit to even face a windmill. They tilt at pinwheels safely behind the fence in the neighbors yard.

157 We also have to consider all of the people who have a strong belief in God but have no  connection to any particular religious congregation.

158 realize that ethics can be derived in any manner but supernaturally

How?

159 Maybe the SCOAMF should lay off the "bitter clingers" bit if he wants to raise more campaign cash;

Obama fundraising a flop?

http://tinyurl.com/86e64ln

160 WTF is "unholy" water?Posted by: Vic

It's the first spell for all Evil Clerics. That and +1 staff will get you half-way through In Search of the Unknown.

161 Christianity is sort of like what Pelosi said about ObamaCare; you have to embrace it before you find out what's in it.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at March 19, 2012 01:01 PM (gPDxp)

Not exactly. One is expected to act like a Christian, building up the Body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God, here on earth, prior to getting to the prize. IOW, make something good of yourself and do something nice for your fellow man. Like, maybe blessing a stretch of highway to see if that won't improve everyone's life a little bit.

162 Annnd now I have Short Skirt Long Jacket stuck in my head - she's changing her name for Kitty to Karen . . . . .

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD 2012 at March 19, 2012 01:18 PM (VtjlW)

 

 

She's trading her MG for a white Chrysler LeBaron.

163 These people are atheists the same way that the Westboro Baptists are devout Christians.

164 let me point out that having a club or society of atheiststs, is kind of like having one for people who don't have cats. What does one do? Sit around talking about how glad you are you don't ever have to change a litter box?




I lol'd.

165 >>They are very selective in which God they do not believe.

To paraphrase Orwell, poorly, it's not so much that they don't believe in Him, it's that they have something very particular against Him.

166 "Atheists are demonized within religious faiths as being inherentlyimmoral" -------------------- In my entire adult life, I have gone to churches in seven states, in a variety of denominations, sat through hundreds of sermons and testimonies... and never once heard Atheists demonized. Nor for that matter, have I heard any authority or ministers demonize gays or advocate violence against non-believers. You guys need to get over yourselves, Christians aren't nearly as obsessed with atheists are you guys are obsessed with us.

167 Yeah, when I come across an Atheist activist who has nothing to say on Islam, I dismiss him as a poltroon.

At least Bart Ehrman is honest about admitting, hey! I'm a coward! http://tinyurl.com/692m95q

I don't blame him, much; Muslims know who he is.

("Poltroon" is an excellent word, btw. I learnt it from Flashman.)

168 152 >>Because icons were uncommon in western christianity.

And statuary is unheard of in Eastern Christendom, but there's little effective difference. Traditional icons are making a come back in the RC church, though.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at March 19, 2012 01:17 PM (zlvkY)

 

OK. That's great. Icons are beautiful. They are memorials and help people to pray and remember. They aren't "graven images" was my point and that "iconoclasts" are destroyers not whatever he meant. Some anti-catholic "image worshipper" crap I imagine.

169

@117

I like Penn, I've watched "Bullshit" but I do not know all of his beliefs.  Remember too, one man's evidence supported facts is another man's hookey ideas.  AGW Remember?

170 I've never heard atheists mentioned in Church or religious affiliated school other as being "defined" as people who do not believe in any god.

171 Boys, I'm an atheist, and more, an anti-theist, and I don't particularly care for this kind of stunt. And you may quit it with lines like this: "They are very selective in which God they do not believe." Really? Sam Harris: "The refrain all religions have their extremists is bullshit." Richard Dawkins "Islam is unquestionably the greatest evil today". Do I even need to mention the Hitch?

172 150 WTF is "unholy" water?

Posted by: Vic at March 19, 2012 01:16 PM (YdQQY)

I'm assuming it came out of their toilets prior to flushing the poo. Seems a bit fetishistic to me. Not to mention yukky.

173 Muslims view athiests as Lenin viewed capitalists;

"They will sell us the rope with which we will hang them with"

174 >>Some anti-catholic "image worshipper" crap I imagine.

Nothing gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling like a Baptist or a Pentecostal walking into our Orthodox parish. 

175 Unholy water: Nancy Pelosi's shower run-off?

176 I thought Ewoks worshipped C3PO?

177 I'm actually quite amused to see so-called aetheists embracing Judeo-Christian values.

178 So what's the next logical evolutionary step up from atheism?  Splitting atoms with your mind?

179 I have never known any avowed atheists that were not dicks about it, so this stunt is not at all surprising.

180 One is expected to act like a Christian, building up the Body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God, here on earth, prior to getting to the prize.

Not to get into a deep religious argument, but this is almost exactly wrong*.


*- Unless you're simply stating that there's an expected standard of behavior for Christians over and above the basic moral behavior expected of everyone.  Which would be true, but incomplete.

181 115I'm starting to get your point Ace. Maybe if you expound further?

Posted by: ms. docweasel at March 19, 2012 01:10 PM (beBtw<<<<

 

I'll field this one, if I may.

 

No one is interested in your shitty blog. Let me break it down for you, dickmeat:  you are LESS interesting, intelligent or relevant than the pimply, sickly, asthma inhaler-sucking fuckwits who like to call themselves "Anonymous."

 

Ooooo! We'll ALL call ourselves docweasel! Fucking A/V Club homos.

 

Charles Fucking Johnson's gay-ass fence pictures - people have actually SEEN those posts. I'd recommend you kill yourself, but no one would notice.  One of you assholes would have to come HERE to tell us about it. That's your rung on the relevance ladder, fuckwit.

 

Is that detailed enough for you?

182 Too long, didn't read, but should I see this movie or not?

183 Wouldn't "unholy water" be just, you know, water?

184 My experience has been that many atheists are not so much atheist but anti-theist. Its just a vehicle for condescension. I am an atheist myself, and could not care less what your religious beliefs are. Have at them, and enjoy. I was prepared at one time to have fantastic battles with my catholic wife over the upbringing of our kids, but I got over it. Ultimately, I thought, what difference does it make if they are baptized? It did no harm to them, to my knowledge, and it made her happy. I know it meant nothing and conferred nothing on them, so what's the harm? I have my beliefs, and she has hers. Much happier marriage that way.

185 183 Yummy

186

Hey, after we get rid of all the nasty Christianists then maybe we can rid ourselves of the scourge that are the Shriners. Evil bastards they are...the lot of them.

 

187 Not all atheists have a see no evil attitude towards Islam

Pat Cadell is a British atheist and his Youtube lectures have focused mainly on Islamic radicalism

188 >>>Atheists are demonized within religious faiths as being inherentlyimmoral Yeah, atheists are more pitied than demonized. Even the former isn't exactly the best attitude, but it's pretty understandable. We think there's a hell. We'd like atheists (who are mostly good people who don't put on wasteful a-hole-y displays like this) to not go there. If we really demonized atheists we probably wouldn't spend so much time and effort and social capital (we *get* that we're irritating! Sorry!) trying to convince them to convert. We wouldn't care if they went to hell if we demonized them. Hell is where demons go.

189 When's the last time you heard of a militant atheist railing against Bah'Hai's, Hindus, Sikhs, Shintoists, Buddhists or Odinists?
------------------------------


Yeah, when WAS the last time a group of "activist atheists" protested at a Winter Solstice ceremony at Stonehenge?

Activist Atheists are just like all liberal activists, they are screaming assholes.  And remember what they said about assholes yesterday.  They are the reason no system of government ever works. Assholes always figure out a way to screw it up.

190 Stuff like unduly calling attention to oneself, of causing social friction (again, often to call attention to oneself), spouting off sanctimoniously but hypocritically (again, usually to call attention to oneself, here, particularly to one's strongly implied moral and intellectual superiority).

Because they're blind to it, they're free to think themselves Awesome. 

191 this is a very long post

192 Pat Cadell is a British atheist and his Youtube lectures have focused mainly on Islamic radicalism


Posted by: kbdabear at March 19, 2012 01:25 PM

Correction; Pat CONDELL

193 193 That's how we started out too. I didn't care so why not let him be happy?

194 also, we got Peyton Manning

195 Nothing gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling like a Baptist or a Pentecostal walking into our Orthodox parish.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at March 19, 2012 01:23 PM (zlvkY)

All the beauty and their heads nearly explode, I imagine.

196

Quote from the clown deamon in Spawn: "How come God hogs up all the good followers, and we're left with the retards?"

These people sorta confirm that question.

197 Wah wah wah, lookit me!  I made a doo doo!

198 if nothing is true, everything is false

199 Not to get into a deep religious argument, but this is almost exactly wrong*.


*- Unless you're simply stating that there's an expected standard of behavior for Christians over and above the basic moral behavior expected of everyone. Which would be true, but incomplete.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 19, 2012 01:24 PM (8y9MW)

No need for an argument. Just read James. Pretty much sums it up. Faith without works is dead. IOW, if you have faith, you  will show it.

200 208 if nothing is true, everything is false

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 19, 2012 01:26 PM (Dll6b)

 

That's true.

201 >>Hey athiests -- try this when the Serbian Orthodox bless a river for Theophany.

KABOOM.

202 But mostly the militant atheists, theists, and so on just can't stand to leave other people alone. Militancy is the desire to control and alter people and circumstances.

203

The Categorical Imperative will serve you well.

204

10Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us.
Above us only sky.

 

Posted by: John Lennon at March 19, 2012 12:47 PM (Hx5uv)

 

 

Maybe it's true that there is no hell below us, above us only sky, but Mark David Chapman is at the same altitude.

205 yeah I grew up with bad public examples of liberalism, and bad private examples of liberalism and atheism...I mean my family was so enlightened, and we were miserable.  That was some sorry shit going on in my life.  Meanwhile, the religious, married neighbor kids seemed to do fine.   But we were Better, you know.    The smart kid keeps his own counsel.

206 Rush is playing tape of Biden;  Joe, amazingly, sounds intoxicated

207 Ace, I never went full atheist, but was agnostic for a while before rediscovering my Lutheran religion. As an engineer, everything had to be logical and practical and religion could not easily be fit into either of those two categories. However, I think deep, too deep sometimes, and I eventually formulated a series of questions that could not be answered: The obvious, how did anything come from nothing. Big bang sure, but where did that tiny ball of mass come from that has accelerated into our universe, ever since? Less obvious, but along the lines of evolution. Why do we Love? Laugh? Cry? Question? These are unnecessary emotions and actions that should have been weeded out of our genetic code long ago. They serve no purpose in evolution, yet there they are. Why do good people sometimes die young and why do monsters sometimes live long lives? This is the ship that I still have a hard time righting. If we are to be judged by our actions on earth, then how can a small child be taken without a chance to go through the trials and tribulations of life? Or a mass murderer live to a ripe age on death row? The latter is easy, they have signed their pact with the devil, and they know the hell that awaits them, thus they keep appealing their sentence as long as they can, even though they know they are guilty. But the former? I dont know. A baby that is aborted in the third trimester never even had a chance to be kissed on their forehead by their loving parents. I understand they will be embraced in Gods love, but I cannot make sense of them not getting their chance at life. Anyway, good post, I do not know what is right, but everybody has a spiritual side to fill with God or gaia or Buddha or whatever, so there has to be something out there.

208 Does Strictly Dickly count as a religion?

209 I want atheists to turn their emotional tantrums on Islam. What say you atheists? Not the logical kind like Ace, the rest of you.

210 Water is essential to life. Its molecule take the form of a Trinity. Ponder that.

211 I'll believe a lot of these atheists don't have mommy issues when they attack Islam just as religiously.

212 So, why did the bless the highway to begin with (not that I have a problem with it)?

213 As Shatner said, "Get a life."


Life is just a clump of cells with no reason or purpose. It's as pointless to get one clump as it is another.

214 196 Not all atheists have a see no evil attitude towards Islam Pat Cadell is a British atheist and his Youtube lectures have focused mainly on Islamic radicalism That's true. Americans?

215 Here's a Pat Condell rant that is on point:  http://tinyurl.com/7vmwbwb

216

216 Always said that Ole Joe was just too big of a moron to know that he is a moron.

 

217 Zen Koan of the Day:

We know the sound of two hands clapping; what is the sound of one hand being shoved up Andrew Sullivan's ass??????

218 >>Water is essential to life. Its molecule take the form of a Trinity.

Don't forget tritium, which was of course essential to the Trinity test.  Again I say, KABOOM.

219
You ever take a look at the driver of the car with that Darwin fish thing on it?

Notice how they all look alike?

They all have that perpetual "I'm smarter than you" look on their face.
Along with the "I'm tolerant, so fuck you" look.

As well as the "Me angry? I'm not angry. Fuck you" look.

It's a combination of all three looks, really.

220 >>Water is essential to life. Its molecule take the form of a Trinity. Actually it's more like Mickey Mouse ears.

221 I'll believe a lot of these atheists don't have mommy issues when they attack Islam just as religiously.

Posted by: Dr Spank at March 19, 2012 01:30 PM (lVGED)

We aren't nutcases with Mommy issues.  We have Daddy issues.  At first, atheism was called "My Father, the Prick" theory.

222 So what is it, exactly, that Christianity or Judaism has done to these idiots? What is it that they feel they must lash out at? Honestly, has one single Christian ever stolen their hard-earned money? Raped their wives? Brought them to grief in any way?


I understand aggrieved Christians who have, truly, been mistreated by their chosen religion, but these asshats?

They never have anything to say except how superior they are, but what, exactly, are their personal axes?


One never knows.

223 dagny: There were several incidents when Byzantine Greeks paraded icons along a parapet during a siege, and then the besiegers gave up. This happened in 626 when the Avars came, and in 860 against the Rus. I had the idea the Greeks did it against the Arabs as well; but, there's (famously) not so much documentation about the 600s from Byzantine sources.

In the 700s, the Greeks were officially anti-icon, so they didn't do this then.

I was (convolutedly) talking about those 700s iconoclasts. I was saying that the iconoclastic Greek would not have waved around a portrait of Mary for any reason, and would have scorned those Greeks who did do it. The iconoclast, I suggested, did not secretly believe that icons were holy. Atheists are a subset of iconoclasts; they oppose icons for a different reason than Leo III opposed them.

224

It’s evident we need a new name for those of us who now answer “agnostic” to questions about religion instead of atheist, because that tag is too well associated with douchebags.

 

Somehow, this new term will need to incorporate the feeling that no, we donÂ’t believe in the bible or any other religious dogma, but then again we donÂ’t really care about what other people believe, as long as they are not trying to impose something on us.

 

The floor is open for suggestions.

225 I shouted out
Who killed the Kennedys
When after all
It was you and me

and Religion.

226 I just never understood atheism. Believing there is no God is as much an act of faith as believing in God.

I understand "I don't think there is a God"; that's agnosticism, because it expresses doubt, not certainty. "I don't think there is a God" and " I don't know if there is a God" are both statements of agnosticism.

But "There is no God" is simply the inverse of "There is a God." Atheists have come full circle and are now as faithful as the religious.

Deeply silly.

227 I am a conservative/libertarian atheist. And no, not a squish or a RINO or a Ron Paul voter. I have voted Republican and still will vote for evangelical politicians who have religious opinions I find degrees from annoying to distasteful. When listening to Santorum the other day make the point that our rights come from God and not from man-made law, my wife was shocked when I said "he's right, you know." I agree with that statement -- leaving God, let us say, as the unknowable, unfathonable depth of all creation -- the point is that our rights fall to us because we're human and alive, not because a government conceded them. The reason I hate socialism as much as I do has a lot to do with my college years where I was studying the Chinese Cultural Revolution and it's effect on real people. That and constantly comparing it to the trustafarian Marxists who absent-mindedly seemed to mouth the same slogans. I resent the thing about atheists not standing up Muslims. I bite my tongue constantly to not sound like a bigot in my opinions of that religion. The people who want to be pranky and haters have their own issues. My wife sings in choirs. And I spent Christmas in a Lutheran Church singing carols with her. I have no resentment towards something I don't believe in, literally. There is plenty of Earthly corruption in Christian churches to criticize endlessly, and I do, because it is in my backyard. I do not spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about the genocidal backwardness of Islam because it's not something I come across in my day-to-day life, thank God. (If you'll pardon the expression.)

228 Posted by: soothsayer at March 19, 2012 01:32 PM (G/zuv) HA! So very true!

229 WTF is "unholy" water?

Think: light beer.

230 I suspect that they're not atheists as much as they're joiner assholes. You see these people whenever any movement has become popular, global warming, anti-drunk-driving, anti-smoking etc. ad nauseum. It's no fun being in the cool kid's club unless you tell everyone you're a member and especially that they're not.

231 I actually think a lot of people adopt militant atheist mindsets because they're Democrats.  Hating the religious hillbillies of the RightWing is just what they think they're supposed to do.

You see it with a lot of our trolls.

232
But those Darwin fish and nasty scolding bumper stickers fascinate.

I'm old to have gathered enough evidence to know such people who go through the trouble of displaying such things on their cars are not "good" or reasonable people.

They are, yes all of them, angry and full of rage and hate. And I can prove it.

Take for instance the Darwin fish thing. The only reason why someone would put that on their car is to single out Christians to insult them. The Darwin fish is the equivalent to "the finger."

Now tell me, what would you think of a person driving down the road with his or her arm out the window with a raised middle finger to the general public?

You'd think they were in need of serious help, ya?

QED

233 Stalin flew the icon of the Vladimir Mother of God around Moscow in a bomber when the Germans were on the outskirts.

He was an atheist, too.

234 I saw a photo of Andi on his way into the latest WH shindig holding hands with his "husband" Andi's fat. Wan't he at one time mr. workout king? Now he's got a huge pot belly. Wait....you don't think he's pregnant, do you??!!!11!!!!!

235 This 'debate' reminds me of Ernst Nolte's ""The Three Faces of Fascism"

Ernie argues that fascism, at its rotten core, is based on what he calls "resistance to transcendence".  Fascists cannot accept that there is a God, or any omnipotent power for good--in man or anywhere.

So they turn to an all-devouring ideology which makes a God out of a twisted combo of government power and crank theories on race/culture/ethnicity

236

220Water is essential to life. Its molecule take the form of a Trinity.

Ponder that.

 

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at March 19, 2012 01:30 PM (gPDxp)

 

Huh? Hydrogen sulfide is a triatomic molecule too, you know, as is carbon dioxide, which is also essential to life.

 

Greg, I generally like your comments, but you're doing yourself no credit with this one. This is on a par with "God" being "dog spelled backwards."

237
I have missingworditis again. I hate that.

Brain working too fast.

238 I'd like more people talking about that one religion that gets it's followers fired up enough to kill (a lot) when their holy book is treated in a way they don't like.

239

Ace,

These "Atheists" (who are more appropriately secularists) aren't so much angry at religion as they are the public display or religion.  It's one of those stupid contradicitions in (typically liberal) thought that having to watch (or be aware) of your expression of beliefs somehow infridges on me.

This is the prefect example. Blessing a highway doesn't even come close to infindging on the atheist (certainly less so than say...occupying a public park.) but this shouldn't be allowed because the poor atheist doesn't want any religion brought outside of the private (i.e. personal) sphere into the bigger world.  You know, it may cause people to leave his camp I guess.

Strangly in such a way secularism becomes the defacto "religion" of the US (especially as we careen towards European style secularism where it will become illegal to so much as wear a cross in public.)

Eugene Volokh did a good post on Secularism and the Law: http://tinyurl.com/7bqelnc I reccomend it, it's a great read (even if Law-Wonkish.)

240 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

241 "Andi's fat. Wan't he at one time mr. workout king? Now he's got a huge pot belly" -------------- Who knew milky loads could be so fattening?

242 Beer is essential to life as well, and it is composed of malt, hops, and yeast.

243

"In my entire adult life, I have gone to churches in seven states, in a variety of denominations, sat through hundreds of sermons and testimonies... and never once heard Atheists demonized."

 

You lead a sheltered life. At a minimum, it is explicitly taught by the Catholic church. My own kid attended religous ed with them, and that most definitely came up. My grandfather is said to have been an atheist, and his children were clearly in denial. When I tried to get at where he stood via his daughter, who knew him best, I hinted at whether this might be the case. She didn't offer any evidence of religious activity of any kind on his part (aside from providing transportation to church for the rest of the family), but nonetheless declared that he couldn't have been, because "he was a good person".

 

Anecdotal evidence aside, polls tells us that more people were antagonistic towards atheists after 9/11 than towards Muslims, who had just had members of their faith commit horrific acts of terror.

 

244

Life is just a clump of cells with no reason or purpose.

 

Entropy generation?

245 >> I'd like more people talking about that one religion that gets it's followers fired up enough to kill (a lot) when their holy book is treated in a way they don't like.

Admittedly, that got a bit out of hand.

246

 

 

Do Atheists have a sort of 'Atheist Manifesto' that they believe in? .....Because the militant, control-freak type of atheists seem to rely heavily on laws to protect them....

 

Or is it against their anti-theism to have any sort of theology with respect to what is 'right' or what is 'wrong'? .....Because if they do have a system of beliefs, then isn't that just another theology? Albeit one based on....nothingness.

 

Most laws are based on a religious system of what is right or wrong. .....If you remove that altogether, then where does the moral high ground come from?    

247 Like EoJ, Atheists should realize that my religion is the only thing that keeps me from killing them all and taking their women. Except for the weekends. >>You know who really killed JFK? >>Religion. >>You know who really killed Hitch? >>Atheism.

248 I have apostrophywordtits. And they're not flattering.

249 There are non-believers, and anti-believers.

I think this is a nice distillation.

And a good read, Ace.  I, like many here am not an active believer and I'm plenty happy to live my life and have them live ours.  There needs to be no conflict in that, except for people on both sides who can't leave well enough alone and need to attack each other.

250 >>Atheists should realize that my religion is the only thing that keeps me from killing them all and taking their women.

For me, it's lack of ambition.

251 229 You ever take a look at the driver of the car with that Darwin fish thing on it?

Notice how they all look alike?

They all have that perpetual "I'm smarter than you" look on their face.
Along with the "I'm tolerant, so fuck you" look.

As well as the "Me angry? I'm not angry. Fuck you" look.

It's a combination of all three looks, really.
---

Those are the douches I wish I had one of those Islam Sharks to slap behind the Darwin Fish. Same thing with those clowns with the "COEXIST" stickers.

252

Heh, *have them live theirs.

Kind of a big difference.

253 The best COEXIST sticker is the one where the C has a bomb strapped around itself and the other letters are scrunched over to the right. Can't put that on my car in Boulder tho'

254 In the Brothers Karamozov Doestoyevski writes, If God is dead all is allowed.

Dawkins (militant atheist ass hole) says that Science proves that God is dead.

Therefore: All is Allowed

I believe this is the syllogism that empowers the left to ever new heights of cruelty and why I defend religion (which does include many ass holes, like me!).

255 I have no problems with the Darwin fish. If people want to slap a Christian fish on their cars, then people have the right to put a Darwin fish on theirs. Personally, I don't consider evolution is in conflict with belief in God.

256 253 Anecdotal evidence aside, polls tells us that more people were antagonistic towards atheists after 9/11 than towards Muslims, who had just had members of their faith commit horrific acts of terror.

I suspect this is because of the behavior expressed in this post. If somebody is an atheist and doesn't believe in God or god, but doesn't act link an asshole (like the grandpa in your anecdote) then nobody really cares.

If, however, the Atheist does act like an asshole, and in fact actively act out against somebody else's beliefs, well you know what, they are inviting antagonism.

257 @SantaRosaStan I think that's entirely false. Any reading of the history fascism has plenty of examples of its nature of psudo-religion. Whether it was a belief in a transcendance of race, the masses, or even devolved notions of traditional religions. The nazis were explicitly compared by some as trying to combine Viking religion with Islamic structures. I think they are examples of what GK Chesteron warned about believing in nothing and falling for anything. It's not enough to say "I don't actually believe in a virgin birth." Being an atheist isn't enough to throw off all the cultural assumptions you are raised with. For good or ill. I have Godwinned it. I denounce myself.

258 Have you ever noticed that the biggest douchebags in the world are the people who insists that they "don't need God to be good." ... cough... Bill Maher... cough...

259 At a minimum, (hatred toward non-believers) is explicitly taught by the Catholic church. ------- I have attended Roman Catholic services, and never heard anything of the kind. Nor have I heard anything from the Lutheran, LDS, Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregational, Anglican, or non-denominational services I have attended.

260

Word Ace.  I was conservative well before I was religious.  I was raised in a chaotic home.  I realized that blaming others or feeling sorry for myself or waiting for other people to "save" me only kept me where I was.  I also realized my salvation lay in learning to take care of myself, be responsible, plan and make good decisions.  That made me conservative.  My siblings who want to blame other people, waiting to be rescued have foundered.  My childhood made me conservative.  I didn't become religious until my 40s.

261

As far as people being killed in the name of religion, that's often overblown, but it certainly has happened plenty of times. Burning witches. The Inquisition. Maybe throw in the Crusades, sort of. The really big conflicts seem to have more to do with lust for power, though.

 

On the atheism side, you can point to the countless millions of deaths caused by the atheist govt of the Soviet Union, for example, but I'd say that was more about totalitarianism than about atheism. I can't really think of any instances of a religious person being killed for being such, without a totalitarian state being involved. In those cases, the State, or "Society", becomes the de facto God.

262 My sister is an Agnostic or as close to an Atheist as you can get and still be an Agnostic. Yet whenever she comes to visit at Christmas she always attends Christmas service where I am the pastor and enjoys the Christmas carols. and service. She says they people are very nice but can't believe what they do; She has contributed to the food pantry at the church, and when I asked her send positive thoughts when I had an interview before I began at the church she did so. After all, she doesn't pray She knows my faith but I don't browbeat her about it at all. I just say sometimes what a blessing it has been to me. She would never behave in such a ridiculous manner as the people who used the "unholy" water and thinks Richard Dawkins is way over the top. She lives in England and unlike many liberal Atheists here she knows what a problem militant Muslims are. I am grateful she is not a militant non believer and has never told me what a fool I am for believing in God. Thanks for your post, Ace.

263
Anecdotal evidence aside, polls tells us that more people were antagonistic towards atheists after 9/11 than towards Muslims, who had just had members of their faith commit horrific acts of terror.


Are we supposed to forget all of the 20th century slaughter by atheist communists just because Muslims are trying to get their own 21st century slaughter going?    


"Muslims are a threat" does not mean atheism must now be considered harmless or even a good thing (by X group; you're free to disagree).  

264 Why do good people sometimes die young and why do monsters sometimes live long lives? This is the ship that I still have a hard time righting. If we are to be judged by our actions on earth, then how can a small child be taken without a chance to go through the trials and tribulations of life? Or a mass murderer live to a ripe age on death row? The latter is easy, they have signed their pact with the devil, and they know the hell that awaits them, thus they keep appealing their sentence as long as they can, even though they know they are guilty. But the former? I dont know. A baby that is aborted in the third trimester never even had a chance to be kissed on their forehead by their loving parents. I understand they will be embraced in Gods love, but I cannot make sense of them not getting their chance at life.

Because we're not in a national park or animal sanctuary. If you're protected from bad things happening, you're not living. Part of life is the bad things that happen. It's an either/or proposition.  Free will entails that we be permitted to experience everything, good and bad. This is why I don't believe God intervenes to save some people from an airliner crash while allowing others to die. I don't believe in miraculous intervention.

If you believe that we're judged by our life here on earth, the logical answer is that we have more than one life. You can't judge a baby who dies at 18 months. I've had enough experiences in my life to indicate that we likely have more than one go-round here. That goes against the teachings of Christianity, but I don't belong to any organized religion. I'm a lapsed Catholic; I still have churchy twinges, but I haven't been to Mass in decades.

My only unsolicited advice to you is to continue to have faith that all will be well. There is a plan, and it's humane. Don't worry about the babies and children, because I believe they'll get another chance.

265 Yeah, I don't find the Darwin fish particularly offensive, either, or at least no more than the Christian fish. The original point of the Christian fish was so that Christians could find each other when they needed help/refuge. If the smug atheists want to find each other---you know, like if they've been forced to look at a bank teller's cross necklace that morning and need to just, like, feel *heard* by someone who is also superior to these mouth-breathing Jesus freaks---they need some little symbol of their own.

266 @ConservativeMonster You are, of course, conflating atheists with Communists as though one equals the other. 'tis not always so.

267 "I have no problems with the Darwin fish. If people want to slap a Christian fish on their cars, then people have the right to put a Darwin fish on theirs. Personally, I don't consider evolution is in conflict with belief in God."

The Darwin Fish does assert evolution as (1) in conflict with belief in Christianity and (2) superior.

I don't like the Darwin Fish even as an atheist symbol because "Darwinism" is just not the next evolutionary step past Christianity. The Darwin Fish is parody Fail.

The Spaghetti Monster stickers are better. Still douchey, but better.

268

These childish twits are doing nothing more than indulging their ill-conceived intellectual vanity with these stunts. They are not deep thinkers; they have never even thought of the possibility of looking for the Hand of God in the things around us, like the kindness of strangers, the beauty of a mountain range, or the birth of a child. They don't bother to try and contemplate that MAYBE there is something beyond this life, or that there are things much bigger than us that require a little bit of faith to believe in. No, they fancy themselves too smart for that and consider themselves much more enlightened than those that do believe. Yet most of them have unquestionable faith in disproven hokey like man made global warming, and will brook no argument for the other side.

 

In other words, there self absorbed shitheads.

269 Making your atheism a religion is just further proof that man is inherently religious, even if that religion boasts in being non-religious. Why go for an un-organized fake religion? When so many original thousands of years old religions are available. You have everything from "hate-filled Islam," to "nothing-bothers-me buddhism," to "I am trying to love all these assholes," Christianity, to "I am too unimaginative to believe in something unseen, so I believe in the biggest thing I can see, either my dick or the government, liberalism."

270 Life is just a clump of cells with no reason or purpose.

Entropy generation?

Posted by: Jay Guevara at March 19, 2012 01:41 PM (8g3RA)

That would be a good way of putting it.  We are coming out with a new video, "Why all the entropy hate?"

271

Loose change:

"For those liberals and atheists who are sure that atheism causes such social ills as racism, hatred of America's enemies, and conservatism"

 

Should that be "For those liberals and atheists who are sure that *religion* causes such social ills as racism, hatred of America's enemies, and conservatism" ??

272 God is NOT dead, He is not even sick!

273 "As far as people being killed in the name of religion, that's often overblown, but it certainly has happened plenty of times. Burning witches" ------ I helped my son research a paper on the Salem Witch trials when he was in high school. I came to the conclusion that religion had very little to do with it, and politics and female rivalry had quite a lot. Imagine the cool girls in middle school, except instead of ostracizing the less popular girls, they could get the principal to burn them alive. And instead of posting nasty rumors about them on Facebook, they accused them of being witches. It was mostly like that.

274

Have you ever noticed that the biggest douchebags in the world are the people who insists that they "don't need God to be good."

... cough... Bill Maher... cough...

Dunno why any any atheists are concerned with "good" or "evil".  It's all just biochemistry after all.

275 I agree with the others above. I have never heard any hatred of Atheists at any church I have been involved with and that is after almost 30 years of church attendance and pastoring in both Protestant and RC churches. I think I have mentioned militant Atheists, but only briefly to say I don't appreciate being insulted by them on religious chat boards.

276

21 Too many militant atheists seem to me to be nothing more than people who resented their parents making them get up for church on Sundays and continue to lash out.

..........

I think you can apply that principle to any group of militants in general (that they resent their parents and take it out on the rest of us).  I think you will also find that the militants also lack the fortitude to confront their parents and ultimately resolve their issues, and find it much easier to lash out at the rest of us instead.

277 Sublime.  Beautifully written, flows from one point to the next -- the Man is back!

(I may have to post this in my cube for future yuks -- this one has a long shelf life.)

But hey, Ace, I'm sure once these un-holy A's were done Un-blessing the road with their Un-holy water, they went back to their Un-church place to Un-wind and maybe sing a couple of Un-Hymns!  ("99 bottles of bear on the wall...")

278 78 Christianity is sort of like what Pelosi said about ObamaCare; you have to embrace it before you find out what's in it. True, except Christianity had better sales(persons). Additionally anything a liberal sells to you, is for their benefit and you pay with your life and freedom. Anything Christ sells to you cost Him His life and it is for your benefit and freedom, other than that it is exactly the same. But I know what you were trying to say.

279 So some Atheists band together to talk about how enlightened they are and proselytize to the masses they consider not quite as smart as they are. In comments in blogs and on TV shows they will suddenly and inappropriately condescend to describe someone as a "backwards neanderthal" for their personal view of reality. And this is different from an obnoxious televangelist how? I have a number of friends who are Agnostics/atheists. It's funny but they don't know the first thing about what I believe and yet they assume everything. Really they have absolutely no concept of religion other than what they see on tv or what their Liberal friends laugh about---which itself is not based on fact at all. They rejected religion when they were young because they were too young to understand it and now they either are not intellectually honest enough to look into it or they suborn their belief system to what their social circle tells them is OK. It is no one's business but my own who I pray to and how.

280 Catholics don't spend any time worrying about Atheists no matter how much the Atheists attack them.  I'm sure the same is true of other religions.

This drives the Atheists crazy.

281 Religion didn't make me intolerant, it made me stop at least once a week, if not more, and think.  Like meditating.  It gave me some quiet in the week to reflect, some small measure of peace.  I never heard anyone at any pulpit, Catholic, Luthern or Jewish preach any thing remotely like intolerance, quite the opposite.   I find less religious people far more concerned about my families observant life.  Friends and family expressing concern that it takes up too much time, interfers with the kids sports, too much of a commitment, they could never do it, etc.  We have never  asked them to live as we do.  We don't comment or judge their lives but they feel free to express their opinions about ours.  Like when a liberal finds out you are a conservative and says "Oh I thought you were intelligent" and act like they are joking.  A reciprocal comment would never be tolerated.  I think atheists like the ones in the story are like people who find out you are in the military and say "Oh I could nver do that, I couldn't just follow orders" as though military memberss are robots.  I think these type of atheists are the ones doing the judging, of themselves. 

282 What a bunch of closed minded assholes.

283 I helped my son research a paper on the Salem Witch trials when he was in high school. I came to the conclusion that religion had very little to do with it, and politics and female rivalry had quite a lot.

Imagine the cool girls in middle school, except instead of ostracizing the less popular girls, they could get the principal to burn them alive. And instead of posting nasty rumors about them on Facebook, they accused them of being witches. It was mostly like that.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at March 19, 2012 01:59 PM (gPDxp)

Also, the moment that the girls started accusing important people like the Governor's wife, suddenly they were unconvincing.

284 Ace is a homo.

285

"Most laws are based on a religious system of what is right or wrong. .....If you remove that altogether, then where does the moral high ground come from?"

 

You seem pretty open-minded, and you have touched on exactly the line of thinking used by many religious people in demonizing atheists.

 

The answer is that atheists are not monolithic, and that a sense of right and wrong is a matter of ethics - an academic subject, which is a subset of philosophy. Some atheists are nihilists (which is denies that there's such a thing as "good" or "bad"), some just make it up as they go along, in a common sense kind of way, and on the other extreme one group in particular has a very formalized "code", as you put it - that being the Objectivists (followers of the philosophy of Ayn Rand). This latter group comes with no lack of irony, for while atheism is equated with anti-American communism by many, the Objectivists have, speaking loosely, free market capitalism as their "religion", and the US Constitution is revered by them.

286

Re: Catholic Church. I'm a Catholic married to a professed agnostic in a Catholic marriage performed at a Catholic church, so yeah, not so much with the hatred of atheists/agnostics anymore.

Admitttedly the church ran with this some time ago (I want to say it was basically gone by Vatican I or II but one of those confirmed it's demise) but it went out of vogue and was replaced by the (admittedly poorly named) "Anonymous Christian Theory" which relies more on how you lived than anything else.

Just so people are caught up, we don't believe in Limbo anymore.

287 'The Left has lots of Daddy issues. America is "Daddy."'



A few times I took some of Amynda Marcotte's screeds and did a find and replace for "Patriarchy," "GOP," "Fundies," etc. with "Dad."  Very illuminating.

Sometimes I get it a bit bungled up in my mind though, and remember it as "the GOP won't let Amynda go to the mall with her friends and give her money to buy the new Sonic Youth Album and it is, like, so unfair."

288 "Most laws are based on a religious system of what is right or wrong. .....If you remove that altogether, then where does the moral high ground come from?" I think most laws come from what will practically hold a society together. Religion is part of the culture that accepts or rejects that social contract.

289 The asshole strident atheist Left, conveniently forgets that slavery was rectified in this country by the preaching of Christians, and the writings of Christians, and ultimately by the blood of Christians...maybe they should read Lincoln's second Inaugural Address. Additionally slavery was ended in England 5 decades before our civil war by the actions of the devout Christian and politician William Wilberforce, who shamed England into abolishing the slave trade in 1807. If America had listened to Charles Finney and his powerful message south of the Mason-Dixon line, America would NOT have had a civil war to end slavery, no telling how that would have changed world history...America coming into world dominance long before the conditions were created for WWI. So never place your bets on what prayer is not doing. Look instead to what happens when men do not pray, and do not take to heart the message of the gospel, or go ahead and do the dark ages all over again.

290 "Just so people are caught up, we don't believe in Limbo anymore."



Actually, I think we're not required to believe in Limbo anymore.  We are free to believe it, or disbelieve it. 

291 I have never had an opportunity to ask people with Darwin fish on their cars what that meant. Obviously it means they believe in evolution. However, many religious people believed God worked through evolution. So are the Darwin fish people trying to stick in in the eye of religious people or what? I guess it depends on the particular person driving the car.

292 .....which is why we won't "win" in Afghanistan but will only introduce more people to the 21st century and train them to impose a more modern order on themselves.

293 I'm amazed at what jackasses we've got in the story here.

Seriously, I have had Wiccan friends in the past.  I don't buy it, but I don't try to convert them.  Let them believe what they want, doesn't hurt me any.

When they decide to give me a blessed talisman, or "purify" my home or whatever crap ritual of the week they're doing, I let them get on with it, then ignore it.

I don't decide I need to undo their ritual with some self-made freak-shit anti-ritual of my own.  They're ok people, I just think they're wrong.  That doesn't mean they're bad.

And because I think they're wrong and what they do doesn't actually change anything; I don't need to oppose it.  What the hell good could that possibly do?

Either I'm wrong (which I don't buy) and their rituals help... or I'm right and they do nothing.  Since this "unblessing" is designed to head toward "do nothing" why deny help freely offered?

Oh, and as for myself?  Lapsed Heretic? Born-again agnostic? Wait, those are jokes I heard; just agnostic then.

 I used to be Methodist, but the Judeo-Christian religion had too many logical holes for me to keep faith.  I think there is quite possibly something; but damned if I know what it is.

294 Terrific post, Ace.  You win one (1) long-contact hug from this actual girl!

295 Atheists don't believe in silly things like a God or gods and the transcendent soul or psyche.

They believe in scientifically proven, logical things, like the fact that the Universe exploded itself into existence out of  nothing. 

296 I guess it depends on the particular person driving the car. Posted by: FenelonSpok My brother does it because he thinks religious people don't believe in evolution.

297 Ace, I expect you're a conservative because you- like everyone else- knows that some things are "Right" and others are "Wrong" in some objective, non-debatable manner. Liberals act contrary to that premise. In general.

Nah, I just think it all boils down to one thing: If you believe that Utopia is possible, or at least that human moral progress is inevitable, then you must be a liberal and evidence to the contrary must be ignored.  If you believe that human nature is immutable and we're just going to go through the same crap again, just with iPads, then you must be a conservative and you'll be skeptical of new schemes.

298 "Just so people are caught up, we don't believe in Limbo anymore."

That's why we've scheduled our next extraplanar invasion for Italy. Bloody Papists, what do they know

299 You know what those atheists do? Use birth control.

300 Moral atheism is illogical. Anything that an atheist does that is not fully in their self interest is illogical. And I don't consider the 'butterfly effect' to be a valid reason of potential self interest. That said I am grateful that there are many moral atheists.

301 It's pretty funny how atheists like to claim that they believe in free will (which violates the Second Law).  The fact is that your standard atheist CANNOT believe in free will, but they are generally too stupid to understand this.   This goes along with the other parts of religion that atheists cling to (such as the Golden Rule that they try to use to form the basis of their entire "ethics", thereby distorting and perverting the original intent along with making the huge mistake of trying to apply empathetic standards to people who don't feel or react to situations in anything like an individualistic Westerner would).  This is the sort of atheist retardation that gives the whole crew a bad name ... and these are the earnest ones.

302

I trust the folk in here who have lived under the notion that there isn't a substantial amount of anti-atheist sentiment are having their eyes opened by some of the commentary here. This stuff is actually pretty subtle, and tame, compared to a lot of what I have seen elsewhere, but #292, for example, is pretty much purely anti-atheist sentiment.

 

As to official teachings, I can't imagine that the chapter on "atheists can't be good people" would make much of an impression on a schoolkid, who probably has never even heard of an atheist. I'm not saying that they make a big thing out of it, or say you should "hate" atheists (or anybody, really), but I have close relatives who were clearly trained within the church - decades and hundreds of miles apart - that an atheist can not be a moral (i.e., "good") person.

 

303 They believe in scientifically proven, logical things, like the fact that the Universe exploded itself into existence out of nothing.

Posted by: Alec Leamas at March 19, 2012 02:17 PM (mg08E)

Actually, that theory (the Big Bang) was the brainchild of Catholic Priest Georges Le'Maitre, who was the Vatican's Science advisor at the time.

304 Daybrother, As wonderful and intelligent as your brother may be in other ways he is wrong about that. Even within Christianity there is a range of attitudes about many things theologically speaking-evolution included.

305 This stuff is actually pretty subtle, and tame, compared to a lot of what I have seen elsewhere, but#292, for example,ispretty much purely anti-atheist sentiment. - Posted by: Optimizer at March 19, 2012 02:25 PM (As94z) -------------- The text of #292: "Catholics don't spend any time worrying about Atheists no matter how much the Atheists attack them. I'm sure the same is true of other religions." This is what Optimizer considers an attack on atheists.

306 "I have never had an opportunity to ask people with Darwin fish on their cars what that meant. Obviously it means they believe in evolution. However, many religious people believed God worked through evolution. So are the Darwin fish people trying to stick in in the eye of religious people or what? I guess it depends on the particular person driving the car."


Um, pretty much.  They've taken the religious symbolism and iconography of Christianity, most notably used by early Christians to identify one another in order to avoid persecution and have satirized and mocked it.  (ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthys) is an acronym for "Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior") (from Wikipedia).

Haha!  So funny. 

307 I was a convert to Catholicism; I never heard anything about Atheists being evil people in all my instruction. Not to say it wouldn't be said by someone, but thats my experience,

308 And let me say I would have been sensitive to that suggestion (that atheists are evil) since I came from a family that was not religious and never brought me to church or Sunday school

309 316 Posted by: FenelonSpoke Heis wonderful because he is my brother but he has the fish only because he is a pompous ass. He hates the church and he went to technical school. I have a degree in biology with several years of genetics and evolutionary biology in particular. I'm also a medical doctor and a believer. He often lectures me on biology and religion even though he has no clue about either.

310 "301The asshole strident atheist Left, conveniently forgets that slavery was rectified in this country by the preaching of Christians, and the writings of Christians..."  Whoo, boy. Here we go. The anti-atheist sentiment is just getting warmed up, and the thread begins to self-destruct. I appreciate that you at least included the "Left" in that, but I wonder whether you consider it redundant.  As to the slavery thing, practically everybody in the US - on both sides - were Christians, so let's not "pull an Obama", and give credit to Christianity for abolishing slavery. There's slavery all over the Bible, and nowhere does God or Jesus say "By the way, this slavery stuff is just WRONG!" Heck, if I'm not mistaken, somebody early on does something bad, gets on God's bad side, and God causes his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren to be enslaved for it (even though they didn't do anything wrong, themselves). Or am I not remembering that right? 

311 ) 278 @ConservativeMonster

You are, of course, conflating atheists with Communists as though one equals the other. 'tis not always so.

Posted by: Daniel Jeyn at March 19, 2012 01:56 PM (j7bWJ)

No, the problem I have with atheism here is that it is unable to "excommunicate" Communism from its ranks - because there's no core principle beyond, "I believe there is no God".  


Now, one atheist might believe in living and let live in a religious society; but another might desire to burn all traditions down in the vain hope that some utopia might spring up in the vacuum (ex: Communism).   

There is no way for the first atheist to say to the second atheist - "you're being a bad atheist, cut that out".    Atheism really has no "should" to it - "all things are permissible".   


I've noticed that the atheists who complain to me about the evil Crusades in the past and anti-Science-ism in the present are very very quiet about the evil committed by Communism.    They're blind to a very recent era of human history with some of the most horrific mass murder - but they'll complain that some school kids are taught that some people believe that God can and did create the universe 6k years ago.  


I make it a personal litmus test of mine to see if any "moral atheist" hates Communism from the depths of their heart - because if they don't, their "morality" is a sham.   They've taken on a superficial imitation of what's acceptable now - but they don't care a whit on making sure it would hold up in the past, or the future.   

312 Heis wonderful because he is my brother but he has the fish only because he is a pompous ass. .....sometimes.

313 I read the Bible better than you. You people  are too stupid to understand it.

314 Optimizer is going to Hell for sure.

315 I'm sorry about that. As I said, my Agnostic sister is cool about it. So I take it your brother wouldn't read the book by Francis Collins, the head of the Human Genome project who is also a Christian? My sister read it; It didn't convince but she read it. There are pompous asses on both sides on the religious, non religious spectrum which is why i don't go on religion forums anymore to hear Militant Atheists talk say "I don't believe in a Big Daddy sitting on a cloud. Sorry you do." without even asking what I DO believe, or tell me in effect, religion is responsible for most evils the world ever produced.

316

"This is what Optimizer considers an attack on atheists. "

 

First of all, you left part of it out. Secondly, I indicated that it was a mild swipe. To paraphrase the full context, he was really saying "Atheists are so full of themselves that they are annoyed that the religions don't give a crap about them", while pretending to say "Churches are innocent, and never say anything bad about atheists". It was rather disingenuous, as was your convenient editting.

317 This is terrible. Once atheists take on the trappings of religion, they've become poster children for hypocrisy (a title once held by Communists). As a confirmed atheist, I find their actions to be beyond comprehension.

318 he was really saying "Atheists are so full of themselves that they are annoyed that the religions don't give a crap about them", while pretending to say "Churches are innocent, and never say anything bad about atheists". - Posted by: Optimizer at March 19, 2012 02:43 PM (As94z) ------------ Wow. Being atheist makes you telepathic? You can actually read people's minds and determine just from a blog comment that they are actually thinking something other than what they are posting? Wow. Atheism is amazing.

319 The answer is that atheists are not monolithic, and that a sense of right and wrong is a matter of ethics - an academic subject, which is a subset of philosophy. Some atheists are nihilists (which is denies that there's such a thing as "good" or "bad"), some just make it up as they go along, in a common sense kind of way, and on the other extreme one group in particular has a very formalized "code", as you put it - that being the Objectivists (followers of the philosophy of Ayn Rand). This latter group comes with no lack of irony, for while atheism is equated with anti-Americancommunism by many, the Objectivists have, speaking loosely, free market capitalism as their "religion", and the US Constitution is revered by them.


Morality, the discernment of right and wrong, is far more than a mere academic subject.  It is intensely practical - it is about what we do in our day to day lives.  

My college ethics class was a 3 month period of navel-gazing and hand-wringing by college students.   The class was not graded on having a right ethic - only that you are able to talk about ethics. 


No group is monolithic (Catholic vs. Protestent; Sunni vs. Shiia), but atheism's by its nature permits everything.   The only "bad" atheist is the one who prays to God once in a while just in case.  

320 WTF? This is the third time in as many days I have read about some nuts in Floriduh...is there some fruitcake convention going on down here I didn't hear about? Hmmm...not likely.

321 Thanks FenelonSpoke. I love my brother and he is a bright guy...More successful in his personal life than I am certainly. I don't mean to knock him. I was actually going to buy that book for him but thought better of it. He believes that the mystic physicists of the last few centuries were brilliant but stupid or something. I usually avoid talking about religion altogether because I believe it is purely a personal perception and practice. I do visit "the Anchoress" daily though. Boy, that Ace guy; Why don't we talk about something less controversial like politics or longbows?

322 "You can actually read people's minds and determine just from a blog comment that they are actually thinking something other than what they are posting?"

No; it's just that Optimizer can recognise a cloud of smug when he reads one.

323 @ 332

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlyInFlorida

324

"Then there's the Evangelical Atheists. It's not enough to not believe themselves, they have to actively disparage others from believing. Or even hearing about it."

They care enough to take away hope even when hope is the only thing a person is hanging on to.

And an Evangelical Christian is the one so full of hate.

325

'No, the problem I have with atheism here is that it is unable to "excommunicate" Communism from its ranks - because there's no core principle beyond, "I believe there is no God".'

 

What you're missing is that - unlike an organized religion - there is no central "common cause" involved in atheism. As I put it earlier, "it'd be like having a club for people who don't have cats."

 

I'm sure there are lots of atheists with a lot of stupid ideas - some as pernicious as communism - but I don't see how I share any responsibility for that, or have any obligation to "police" them. They are not fellow members of any organization I belong to.

326 Posted by: Optimizer at March 19, 2012 02:57 PM (As94z)


In short, not your fault.   

Then why complain that people have anything against "atheism"?   You've declined any responsibility to protect the "brand", so to speak.  

Accept that the brand sucks or make it better.  But if you do the former, don't complain that people accurately observe that the brand does indeed suck.

327

"Morality, the discernment of right and wrong, is far more than a mere academic subject. It is intensely practical - it is about what we do in our day to day lives.

My college ethics class was a 3 month period of navel-gazing and hand-wringing by college students. The class was not graded on having a right ethic - only that you are able to talk about ethics."

 

Physics is "more than a mere academic subject" too. It makes your car go, when you hit the gas, and - what do you know - when you drop something, it falls! And yet Physics is taught. As an academic subject.

 

If you spent your ethics course naval-gazing, you were either a lousy student, it was a crappy course, or both. It was never my field, but that doesn't mean it has to be a joke.

 

Oh, and by analogy, I wouldn't think a history course on the Civil War should be graded on what side you were most sympathetic to.

328 Ace,
Good piece. I didn't read all the comments, and I'm sure they were forceful, persuasive and enlightening, but this is why I love your writing, completely.

329 If you spent your ethics course naval-gazing, you were either a lousy student, it was a crappy course, or both.

Most ethics courses are jokes.  I remember taking a course on Business Ethics where the professor was an editor of the shitty book he required us to buy (very expensive, crappy, 35 page paperback).  i complained to him that he had no ethics and his response was to return $1 to everyone in the class so that he wasn't "personally profiting" from the forced sale of his book.  LOL. 

The fact is that the non-science departments of most universities are nothing but jokes.  That's the danger of subjectivity in academia.

The few things I've heard "Medical Ethicists" discuss have been among the dumbest things I've heard and I have yet to hear one medical ethicist show that he actually has specialized training in ANYTHING.  Mostly, they just talk gibberish.

330

'Then why complain that people have anything against "atheism"? You've declined any responsibility to protect the "brand", so to speak.'

 

 

Wow. You are a REAL piece of work, aren't you?  People pull some sort of "guilt by association" crap on me, regarding people I'm not associated with, or tell others that I can't be a good person because I'm not relgious, and it's not OK for me to call them on it? You're a real jerk.

331 >> I remember taking a course on Business Ethics where the professor was an editor of the shitty book he required us to buy (very expensive, crappy, 35 page paperback).

I had an econ prof try that shit.  I borrowed somebody else's and copied it.  On said prof's copying machine.  During office hours.  While he watched.

He started to say something, and I muttered something about intellectual property not being worth the fucking paper it's written on.

So he made be do a paper on it.

Fucking religion.

332 You know, not wearing underwear is very liberating.

333 He started to say something, and I muttered something about intellectual property not being worth the fucking paper it's written on.

So he made be do a paper on it.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at March 19, 2012 03:22 PM (zlvkY)

LOL.  Some profs just love being the masters of their little domains, although that is a very interesting topic for a paper, anyway.  Not exactly econ, but interesting.

334 Physics is "more thana mere academicsubject" too. It makes your car go, when you hit the gas, and - what do you know - when you drop something, it falls! And yet Physics is taught. As an academic subject.


Physics at its core is about understanding our physical reality.   Morality at its core about knowing what we each ought to do.   There are academic courses going into depth on these subjects, but they are all more than "just" academic subjects.  (which has some implication of ivory tower knowledge with limited practical use).         

Everyone is a physicist at some level - if you drive a car, you don't have to know the equations to understand that you can't stop the car instantly.   (And hopefully the bad physicists don't get driver's licenses) 

Everyone is a moralist.    How do you treat your friends?  Your enemies?  Your coworkers?  You family?   Those are all moral issues, and your actions are your beliefs.  


If you spent your ethics course naval-gazing, you were either a lousy student, it was a crappy course, or both. It was never my field, but that doesn't mean it has to be a joke.

Oh, and by analogy, I wouldn't think a history course on the Civil Warshould be graded on what side you were most sympathetic to.

Why did you take my criticism of my college ethics classes and make a personal insult on my academic ability?   

The class was a required course for graduation, as part of the school's desire to graduate "ethical engineers".    Why is that even desirable if there's no "right" or "wrong" ethic?     You then go on to compare a question with a right and wrong answer to a subjective question about feelings.  

There may be no right or wrong answer to "which side of the Civil War do you feel sympathetic to?", but there is a right and wrong answer to the fact of - "Who won the Civil war?", and to the moral judgement of - "what outcomes of the Civil war were desirable?"  "Which should have been avoided?"  

335 >>Not exactly econ, but interesting.

Actually, the thrust of my paper was that cheap duplication technologies mean that IP is no longer a scarce resource.  Ergo, it has no market value.

This was back in the 80s, so I only got a B on it.  These days, the Chinese build their economy on that very concept.

Fucking Buddhism.

336

'I've noticed that the atheists who complain to me about the evil Crusades in the past and anti-Science-ism in the present are very very quiet about the evil committed by Communism.'

 

 

Well, take note of the fact that I brought up the evil of the Crusades, distain "anti-Science-ism" (within which I include AGW, BTW), and am constantly and vigorously attacking the evils of Communism.

 

In fact, while many on the Right have adopted a concilaitory "not evil, just wrong" stance regarding the Left, I disagree. These people are smart enough to recognize the devastion that universally accompanies communism. They choose to ignore it because they put their own elitism, envy, and/or kleptomania first. Therefore, I surmise that they are Leftists BECAUSE they are (in some respect, and to some extent) evil.

337 >>Well, take note of the fact that I brought up the evil of the Crusades

1204 beyotches.

338
Wow. You are a REAL piece of work, aren't you? People pull some sort of "guilt by association" crap on me, regarding people I'm not associated with, or tell others that I can't be a good person because I'm not relgious,and it's not OK for me to call them on it? You're a real jerk.

Posted by: Optimizer at March 19, 2012 03:20 PM (As94z)


You confuse observations about ideological foundations with a judgement on your personal moral standing.   


You said it yourself - there is nothing in atheism that can be used by you to judge a fellow atheist as "doing wrong by atheism".     Everything is permissible under atheism.   Thus, I oppose atheism as a philosophy (there are things in this world that are NOT permissible), and pay close attention to self-identified atheists on what they do.  


You take my observation of this truth, a description of reality, as a personal insult.    I may be a jerk for sharing my opinions on atheism in polite company, but I daresay you have a more serious problem if you're insulted by truth.  

339

346

 

I don't know where you're trying to go with any of this, but as to your "academic ability" I have no knowledge and make no claims. I simply left open one possibility that you may have simply not taken the course seriously.

 

The odds of a given ethics course being lousy is probably extremely high. The odds of a student - one required to take such a course outside their chosen major, to get a degree - not taking such a course seriously (even on the odd chance that it's a good one) is probably not as high, but also pretty good.

340 You're going to hell, dude.

341 >>
The odds of a given ethics course being lousy is probably extremely high.

That's not going to help your grade, dude.

342 Well, take note of the fact that I brought up the evil of the Crusades, distain "anti-Science-ism" (within which I include AGW, BTW), and am constantly and vigorously attacking the evils of Communism.


That is to your credit.   The leftist atheists I have talked to have all failed the test.   To them, since it happened 20~30 years ago, Communism is no longer worth discussing.   (But the witch trials and Crusades will pop up as an example of religion's folly)   

343
I don't know where you're trying to go with any of this, but as to your "academic ability" I have no knowledge and make no claims. I simply left open one possibility that you may have simply not taken the course seriously.

The odds of a given ethics course being lousy is probably extremely high. The odds of a student - one required to take such a course outside their chosen major, to get a degree- not taking such a course seriously (evenon the odd chance thatit's a good one) is probably not as high, butalso pretty good.


I criticize the course because I took it deadly seriously.   Morality determines when it is permissible to use deadly force, and when to resist or submit - even to death.   

The class still had its value in its various discussions and introduction to different value systems to make moral judgements (utilitarian, etc etc) - but the class was worthless in that there was never a "right answer".   Yet we we do live in a world where moral questions have "right answers" - it is the basis of our laws.  

But hey, it's just ethics, an "academic subject".   Now that we've got that boring stuff out of the way, let's get out the campus vote for bread and circuses. 


You say you made no claims on my academic ability, but you're the one who brought up the scenario of "lousy student, bad class, or both".    What part of my observations seemed to show lousy work as a student?   Instead of bringing up an insulting and unproven scenario, why not ask me to clarify what I meant?  

344

#350

"You said it yourself - there is nothing in atheism that can be used by you to judge a fellow atheist as "doing wrong by atheism". Everything is permissible under atheism. Thus, I oppose atheism as a philosophy (there are things in this world that are NOT permissible), and pay close attention to self-identified atheists on what they do."

 

 

Very interesting. Let's first point out that you have changed the subject from what I was critical of your saying, but move on.

 

Indeed, the point that is lost to many is that there is no inherent philosophy attached to being an atheist, and therefore being an atheist implies neither that one is moral nor immoral. You seem to imply that atheism is inherently nihilistic in saying "Everything is permissible", but that's unclear. You say "I oppose atheism as a philosophy". Are you suggesting that atheism is a philosophy, which you oppose? At the same time, you seem to recognize that it is not, and that athiests must be judged as to their morality on an individual basis.

 

At any rate, you seem to abide by the the idea that being moral and beng religious are not one and the same. So there's that.

345 The odds of a given ethics course being lousy is
probably extremely high. The odds of a student - one required to take
such a course outside their chosen major, to get a degree- not taking
such a course seriously (evenon the odd chance thatit's a good one) is
probably not as high, butalso pretty good.


In my haste to reply, I missed this.  

Who majors in ethics?   What on earth makes you think that only the student who majors in ethics is qualified to take ethics seriously?   What makes you think that ethics is outside *any* student's chosen major?  


This is exactly what I was criticizing with your labeling of ethics as an "academic subject".  

346 Indeed, the point that is lost to many is that there is no inherent philosophy attached to being an atheist, and therefore being an atheist implies neither that one is moral nor immoral. You seem toimply that atheism is inherently nihilistic in saying "Everything is permissible", but that's unclear. You say "I oppose atheism as a philosophy". Are you suggesting that atheism is a philosophy, which you oppose? At the same time, you seem to recognize that it is not, and that athiests must be judged as to their morality on an individual basis.


Atheism is indeed a philosophy - it asserts "There is no God".    The resulting implication is that there is no higher being or authority that man answers to.  Thus, "all things are permissible" - because there is no Supreme Atheist or Supreme Atheist order you will piss off by doing X.  (though you do betray the meaning of the word if you believe in any gods as an atheist)  


If you say a group of humans has moral authority over an individual (majority rule), you have justified Communism.   If you say that each individuals chooses for himself, it does not answer the question of how we arbitrate between two competing and exclusive claims, without again appealing to majority rule.  

The very nature of atheism as a philosophy is that it flees the moral question of, "this is acceptable" and "this is unacceptable".   I judge that to be moral cowardice and "unacceptable".   On those grounds, I reject atheism.   


If you have thought about these things, and have found a good answer to those implications of atheism, congratulations on being the rare thoughtful atheist.   Please do share that answer, because I did not think atheism had that answer,  and would need to re-evaluate.  

347

#355

 

Not a whole lot to object to, there. I'm not sure how comfortable I would be in with a class where my grade depended on how my own determination of right vs. wrong lined up with my instructor's (unless, of course, I was going to a college with a well-defined values - specifically because they had those values). Often it comes down to values, many of which can be debated. It still doesn't mean you can't learn about what's relevant, and how to analyze a situation.

 

I DO object, however, to the idea that "right answers" to moral questions are "the basis of our laws". It would be a good thing, and the Constitution does pretty well in that regard, but that's just not reality as a general rule.

 

348 Not a whole lot to object to, there. I'm not sure how comfortable I would be in with a class where my grade depended on howmy own determination of right vs. wrong lined up with my instructor's (unless, of course, I was going to a college with a well-defined values - specifically because they had those values).Often it comes down to values, many of which can be debated. It still doesn't meanyou can't learn about what's relevant, and how to analyze a situation.

That's a good point, and perhaps why they avoided it.   But their avoiding the question is a choice and a statement of its own.  All choices have consequences.   In my school's case, their choice meant their ethics class is a joke, and does nothing to produce "ethical engineers".   Their plagiarism rules do far more for building ethics than that class.  



I DO object, however, to the idea that "right answers" to moral questions are "the basis of our laws". It would be a good thing, and the Constitution does pretty well in that regard, but that's just not reality as a general rule.

I stab you to death.   Does that fall under murder, manslaughter, or self-defense?  

I consider this a trivial counter-example that completely undermines your claim, and which you should have thought of before posting your response.   Think harder, these are important questions.  

349

#357

 

Oh, dear. You are getting yourself worked up. If you calm down and look at what you quoted me as saying - maybe a little more carefully - you should be able to see that your commentary is questioning me for saying a bunch of things that I didn't even say.

 

And you're still complaining about the "academic subject" term, even though you seem to be able to discuss it as an academic subject (that you took) just fine.

350

@313

And every other belief system has no inconsistencies?  Whether you believe it or not, atheists can and do make moral decisions while still being an atheist.

I don't think its an inconsistency, but even it was an inconsistency, so what? Atheists are not vulcans. Doing bad things feels wrong. I don't like it. I don't do things solely on the basis of whether or not there is a benefit to me (although I guess not feeling bad and not experiencing the dislike felt by doing something bad are benefits). Do you think that atheists must be emotionless automatons or surrender their beliefs?

I happen to believe that we wink out when we die. Its a terrible, troubling thought. I also believe it therefore makes sense to generally treat people with compassion and respect because this might be all there is. There is a fair amount of golden rule type decision making too but that does seem to result in things most people would consider moral behavior. Maybe calling it "moral" is the wrong word, but it often results in similar behavior, even if arrived at from a different avenue.

Every poll I've seen has atheists ranked slightly higher than criminals and many of the comments above are quite negative. I am not often in a situation where admitting to being an atheist would come up, but I learned long ago, that its better for me to hide it. And that seems wrong.

351

Meanwhile, 90 emo kids stoned to death in Iraq for bad haircuts by the Religion of Peace are unavailable for comment.

 

Of course the Church of Atheism can't be bothered to speak out against that, because it doesn't serve the purpose of undermining Western Civilization.

352

"I stab you to death. Does that fall under murder, manslaughter, or self-defense?"

 

You're not being clear what you're getting at. The situation you present has obvious ethical issues, but does present what the law dictates, much less defend that law as being moral. But it highlights a related issue, that morality is contextual. The answer to the question might be "none of the above" if I were an enemy combatant, or someone threatening your life somehow.

 

But you're ignoring that probably the bulk of all laws are pure cronyism, and fairly immoral as such. All I'm saying is, "That which is legal is by no means automatically moral, nor vice versa".

 

What I remember from my own engineering ethics course (a jillion years ago, so it wasn't pure green s**t) was a case study about some gadget that had failed, and caused a plane to crash. There were all kinds of complex issues were brought up (that I can't remember) that might not be obvious to a student that they even WERE ethical issues. I never considered it to be an especially valuable course, but it's probably a good idea to stir up some awareness about how ethical issues can crop up in places you might not expect.

353 If any atheist is honest enough to examine himself, he'll see it's true that he loves sin. All he need do is name what it is that occupies most of his life's devotions - because something will - and that thing will be something classed as sin thousands of years ago. No exceptions.

Some atheists are better than others at ignoring or suppressing whatever degree of knowledge they have about this. The less mature/more unstable/more bitter ones turn it outward in hostility against anyone or anything even claiming (truly or not) to represent Him. In the rest, it takes the form of a deep disquiet that, if they're honest, they'll admit is always there.

354
#357

Oh, dear. You are getting yourself worked up. If you calm down and look at what you quoted me as saying - maybe a little more carefully - you should be able to see that your commentary is questioning me for saying a bunch of things that I didn't even say.

And you're stillcomplainingabout the "academic subject" term,even though you seem to be able to discuss it as an academic subject (that you took) just fine.

Posted by: Optimizer at March 19, 2012 04:30 PM (As94z)


No, I'm criticizing the mental classifications you have of "ethics" as shown by the way you talk about it.  

"Ethics" isn't outside my major- it's a part of it, in fact it's part of every student's curriculum, whether they recognize it or not.    I'll go further and say it's the duty of every human being to study and apply ethics.   From each human's very birth, we are indebted to our parents and society (and God, if he does in fact exist, regardless if we believe in him or not), and we gain corresponding duties.

I'm using "morality" and "ethics" interchangeably here, because they are both about human "oughts".   I ought to do this, you ought to do that.   


Would you label our current discussion "academic"?    We're certainly not in an official school setting, though a discussion blog can be considered a place of learning. 


Am not particularly upset, BTW.  I just tend to be verbose on topics I'm passionate about.   I'm also a big stickler for correct labels.  In computer programming, labeling things wrong tends to result in incorrect usage and Bad Things Happening.  

355 Question to agnostics from Dennis Prager  (not in an accusatory mode but in his normal "clarification" mode)

If you're 50/50 on  if there is a God,  why does it seem that most agnostics devote approximately 0% of their time to trying to resolve the nagging question one way or the other?  Isn't it a huge issue just to leave uncommitted?  

Replying that it wouldn't change your life if you decided either way is probably  disingenuous.  If you really knew/decided there was going to be a day of reckoning,  it's unlikely that you'd truly be unmoved. 

 

356

"363Meanwhile, 90 emo kids stoned to death in Iraq for bad haircuts by the Religion of Peace are unavailable for comment.

Of course the Church of Atheism can't be bothered to speak out against that, because it doesn't serve the purpose of undermining Western Civilization."

 

Well, I'm an atheist, and as such I can tell you there is no such thing as the "Church of Atheism". I don't really see why I would be called upon to condemn religious fanatics stoning people to death, but I certainly have no problem doing so. If anything, it shows - assuming that such an act is consistent with Islam - that religion and morality are not as closely coupled as most people like to think. Religions can certainly call for, and support, immoral things.

 

You apparently have me confused with a liberal. By the way, the most religious demographic in the country is also the most liberal. So "stick that in your pipe and smoke it". Man, people like you are tiresome.

357 "If any atheist is honest enough to examine himself, he'll see it's true that he loves sin."

I guess Optimizer has been completely refuted, then. There's no anti-atheist sentiment among Christians. Nah. Christians are just against evil. Atheists are liars for not accepting their place as sin-ridden, no - as lovers of sin.

'Right now, I'm going to have to go with Wrath' -- Malcolm Reynolds

358 I think some atheists may be misinterpreting the theory of Total Depravity that exists in the church as an attack solely against them.  It's not that we think atheists are inherently wicked, it's that we believe everyone is, including ourselves, and from birth.  Someone who is saved is just that, saved.  A wicked person who was yanked out of a burning building and now is alive vs. someone who is just as wicked who is still trapped in the building, as it were.  The Christianity that exists as a culture in America has and frequently does twist this and some really bad theology permeates the debate as a result.  I have a lot of respect for Penn Jillette because it seems like he at least gets religion given some of his comments.  If believers truly believe in salvation and heaven/hell, the whole lot, it would be hateful not to evangelize someone you cared about.  I think the mistrust in general for atheists might stem from the feeling that the lack of belief is counter to what people seem to know in our core being as existing.  There is a subset of people claiming the mantle of religion who are hateful bigots.  And there is a subset of people claiming the mantle of Atheism whose core philosophy seems to be "You can't tell me what to do, Daddy!"

359 Really annoying evangelicals from any ideology are really annoying. It doesn't matter who they are: Baptists, atheists, Muslims, Communists, Econuts, whoever. They take their ideology and turn it into a club to hammer everyone they disagree with and try to make everyone just like them. Its pathetic and it makes everyone else who shares that ideology look worse by comparison.
There is a bright side of this though: it helps put Christians in perspective. Criticize the individual and their methods, if you have a problem with that, not the ideology. If you like Jesus and spirituality and the idea of Christianity, then don't attack it when you see some Christian acting stupid. Attack that person.

360 I guess Optimizer has been completely refuted, then. There's no anti-atheist sentiment among Christians. Nah. Christians are just against evil. Atheists are liars for not accepting their place as sin-ridden, no - as lovers of sin.

'Right now, I'm going to have to go with Wrath' -- Malcolm Reynolds

* * *

If you were to choose one thing above all else in your life that gives you meaning, fulfillment and joy, what would it be?

361

#367

"Replying that it wouldn't change your life if you decided either way is probably disingenuous. If you really knew/decided there was going to be a day of reckoning, it's unlikely that you'd truly be unmoved."

 

Your comment is pretty insulting. It pre-supposes that one can only choose to lead a moral life because they live in fear of some supernatural being causing them endless misery if they fail to comply with their demands, which implies (again) that one has adopt a religion to be "a good person". You also presuppose that agnostics buy into the notion that expressed faith is a requirement for salvation. To think that the prevalence of anti-atheist sentiment was questioned earlier on in here...

362 And agnostics aren't 50-50 on God. They might be 80-20, but they haven't seen enough evidence or reason to go that extra 20%. If faith is (as the Bible teaches) a gift, then that's not surprising. Agnostic are far more honest and reasonable to me than atheists.
Reason, common sense, and science all prove that some kind of creator must exist. Agnostics just don't have enough to turn that into faith. Atheists pretend there's nothing there at all, when deep down they really know there is.

363 Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us.
Above us only sky.

To John Lennon...........you also wrote...........

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world

So than I guess you're cool with the idea of me freely distributing and sharing your songs to all the people of the world.

Oh.....you don't want me to share that possession of yours.....hmmmm...I'm confused now?

364 364
"I stab you to death. Does that fall under murder, manslaughter, or self-defense?"

You're not being clear what you're getting at. The situation you present has obvious ethical issues, but does present what the law dictates, much less defend that law asbeing moral.But it highlights a related issue, that morality is contextual. Theanswer to the question might be "none of the above" if I were an enemy combatant, or someonethreatening your life somehow.


Is there a correct answer to the question?   Yes.   You are even interested in collecting more information on the exact circumstances so that the correct judgement is made.  

If there was no right answer, the circumstances wouldn't matter.   All the answers would be equal, and it wouldn't matter if the legal system sent me to the electric chair or let me walk free, after having stabbed you to death.   


It should be obvious that the previous scenario is absurd.   There is a single correct judgement that our legal system tries to reach through fallible human juries and judges.   Our legal system cares about getting the correct answer.   We have many rules in place to aid the process -  what exactly is a crime, what level of punishment to mete out for a crime, what constitutes a reasonable threshold of evidence to judge one way or another.  


But you're ignoring that probably the bulk of all laws are pure cronyism, andfairly immoral as such.All I'm saying is, "That which is legal isby no meansautomatically moral, nor vice versa".

What I remember from my own engineering ethics course (a jillion years ago, so it wasn't pure green s**t) was a case study about some gadget that had failed, and caused a plane to crash. There were all kinds of complexissues were brought up (that I can't remember)that might not be obvious to a student that they even WERE ethical issues. I never considered it to be an especially valuable course, but it's probably a good idea to stir up some awareness about how ethical issues can crop up in places you might not expect.

I'm not talking about implementations, I'm talking about the ideas driving the implementation.   Similarly, I'm not talking about individual atheists and their morality, I'm talking about the ideas underlying atheism and the ideas' impact on morality


That which is made illegal is in fact supposed to be immoral - how else to justify using DEADLY force to enforce those laws?  (Police have the power to jail you and to shoot you if you resist)  If they were not meant to have some level of correlation, why repeal any law for being "bad"?     Laws are imperfect, but the goal they serve is to enforce a level of (lowest common denominator) morality.   


Anyways, fun discussion, but I've got to get going.   Catch you on the ONT or some other thread.  

365

"365If any atheist is honest enough to examine himself, he'll see it's true that he loves sin. ..."

 

LOL.

 

No, I did not write this as a sock puppet, BTW.

366

Optimizer, you may be the exception to the rule, since I don't know you, but every atheist I have ever known and those I have heard (Hitchens, Penn Jillette, etc.) seem not to just not believe in a god, but be actively angry against the one that Jews and Christians worship.

 

I don't believe in the Egyptian gods, or the Greek gods, or the Norse gods, or the gods the Aztecs sacrificed people to. I don't believe in the Buddha or in the Hindu or Shinto gods. I don't believe in Allah, the moon god the Muslims worship. Because I don't believe in them, I'm not butthurt or offended by others who do. Those gods don't exist, but it's not my problem if people believe in them.

 

The Church of Atheism, however, spends 99% of its time spewing absolute hatred toward the 1 billion or so people on the planet who believe in the Judeo-Christian God and/or in Jesus. They never seem to get too worked up about the other 5 billion people on the planet with imaginary friends. Jews and Christians are a minority in the world, yet they are targets of atheists. If you don't believe in God, why do you care so damn much? I don't get bent out of shape that Wednesday is named after Odin or Thursday is named after Thor--they could just as easily be named after characters from Firefly, for as real as the Norse gods are. Your anger is not disbelief, it's malice against God for some perceived fault.

367 "And agnostics aren't 50-50 on God. They might be 80-20, but they haven't seen enough evidence or reason to go that extra 20%."

Well than the question about why agnostics usually devote 0% of their time to faith is even more pertinent if they are 80% believers.

368 LOL.

* * *

Test it, then.

What one thing in your life - and there is something - gives it meaning and joy above all else you might choose?

369

#376

".. There is a single correct judgement that our legal system tries to reach through fallible human juries and judges. Our legal system cares about getting the correct answer. ..."

 

You're rejecting nihilism, and I agree with that, but I hope you are not conflating that with atheism (which is not the same thing, but the two are not mutually exclusive).

 

As to what our legal system cares about, I wish you were right, but - c'mon! Eric Holder is our attorney general, for cryin' out loud!!

370 @373

"Your comment is pretty insulting."

Oh don't be like most emotional liberals that get "insulted" and "offended" about a disagreement.   True conservatives do not get "offended" they just state that they disagree and then debate.

Hey, I'm not Prager.  I'm sure he put it a ton better than how I recapped it. 

Go to Prager University - it will be the best 5 minutes you can spend this week

371 A great 4 minute audioDennis Prager on Why Atheists & Agnostics Should Take Their Children to a Church

Youtube link

372 Jimbo,

http://tinyurl.com/84camfb

373 From prager video about agnostic taking children to church..............

"One of the motto's of our country is "In God we trust"  and so son even though I struggle with the issue of God our founders though that belief in God was essential to being an American."

374 >>>Reason, common sense, and science all prove that some kind of creator must exist

I must have missed that day in every science or philosophy class I ever took. Huh.

375

@378

 

You bring up some interesting points, but let me first point out that most times you hear about an atheist doing anything it's probably because they're the atheists that are being - as it's called - "militant". Probably, most atheists don't even like to admit to it, because somebody is likely to give them a hard time about it, in one way or other, and descriminate against them. I certainly don't advertise it.

 

Also, you might want to check out the works of S. E. Cupp.

 

Something you bring to mind was how much the flap that is the subject article of this thread reminds me of something that happened a few weeks ago. Supposedly, some Jewish folks were getting themselves worked up over Mormons baptizing their deceased relatives. The Jewish people obviously don't believe that the Mormon action has any effect, whatsoever, and yet they're upset about it? Really, I kind of suspected that it was just something CNN put out to make Mormons look weird, when Mitt became the obvious front-runner.

 

People are religious due to a complex mixture of psychological reasons, and I'm sure everyone is different. (The pointlessness of debate lies in that fact.) There's often a strong tribalistic ("us" vs. "them") element, and I do fault people for that (it also motivates them to attack each other, BTW). But I think the "biggie" is fear of death. You can't really fault someone for being so afraid of death that they buy into a story about how you don't REALLY die (if you do exactly as I tell you...) - although the problem there comes in where the only "proof" they have of being right is that others agree with them (an Emporer's New Clothes kind of situation), and so not being on board seems like a threat to their eternal life, and they get nasty. I'm pretty sure the kid in the Emporer story was probably beat up, although the story stops short of that.  

 

If atheists seem to tolerate Muslims more, then those are liberals who are looking for "victims" (they just gotta have VICTIMS), and like to give a pass to anybody who is anti-America.  There is, after all, the matter of a certain genocidal pediphile to be considered there.

376 Try again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNedUB1lPk

377

'383A great 4 minute audioDennis Prager on Why Atheists Agnostics Should Take Their Children to a Church'

 

Oh, wow.

 

And no, that one's not me doing a sock puppet, either.

378 Pardon my dumbness, what exactly does sock puppet mean around here?

379 Ace, you are a one point Calvinist.  Which is more than a lot of religious folk. 

380

385From prager video about agnostic taking children to church..............

"One of the motto's of our country is "In God we trust" and so son even though I struggle with the issue of God our founders though that belief in God was essential to being an American."

 

Now, you do know that this motto was adopted in the 20th Century, while the Founders lived in the 18th Century, right? Somehow, I doubt this fool gets any better in the rest of his spiel. You really ought to re-evaluate the where you choose to get your information.

381 390

Using someone's name and/or personality to make a funny point or mock them/it. See post 294 in this thread.

382

Ace, Ace, Ace,

These assholes aren't assholes because they're atheists.  They are assholes because they are assholes who happen to be atheist.  If they were Christians, they'd be assholes who'd be ridiculing atheists.  If they were liberals, they'd be ripping conservative bumper stickers off cars and calling Republicans Nazis and racists.  If they were conservatives, they'd be driving us crazy with claims that Obama was Muslim born in Kenya.  If they were your boss, they'd be driving you crazy with impossible deadlines and sudden switches of priority.  If they were your employee, they'd be sleeping in the warehouse and complaining to their union if you caught them.

The one true religion of assholes is Assholery.  All of their other beliefs come second.

I'm an atheist.  Like most atheists, I think religion in moderation is good for other people.  One atheist friend of mine was the principal of a Catholic grade school.  We're everywhere.  What most normal atheists hate is not religion but assholes, particularly atheist assholes who want to cause trouble over religion.  Give them the wood shampoo, I say!

383

'390Pardon my dumbness, what exactly does sock puppet mean around here?'

 

I never engage in the practice (which is often done here for fun, not deceitful purposes, but I never do it that way either), but if I have used the term right, it means that you post where you identify yourself as someone who you are not. In this case, I'm saying that I'm not posting under a false identity to say things to prove the point I've made under my usual identity (and I'm kind of joking about it).

384 "Using someone's name and/or personality to make a funny point or mock them/it. See post 294 in this thread."

thanks, that's what I thought. Just doesn't make sense to me for someone to say, "This is me not using a sock." Ah well...mysteries.

385 So if Alain de Botton - an atheist - says society needs religions as a positive force, what are these positives that, apparently, are lacking in atheism?

More to the point, why are these positives something that organized atheism apparently cannot provide, if we're to accept the proposition that atheism is more enlightened, thus more positive, than any religion can be?

386

"Even if you don't believe in the power of prayer, can't prayer just be viewed as a nice sentiment? And what's wrong with that?"

These are the sort of people who'd hear little children's voices singing in a restaurant, then charge over when Mom says "Now, make a wish and blow out the candles!" to scream in a bewildered 4-year old's face 'Wishes aren't real!! There's no such thing as magic!!'  How about they try minding their own business for a few minutes and see how that works out?  Idiots.

387 Waht religion was behind the Holocost, Catholicism.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

The others are derived from the pernicious Church of the Almighty State. As Joe Wilson famously said, "You lie!"

388 The one thing I fucking notice about evangelical atheist is they never seem to wanna insult Islam. Why the fuck is that? Hello! Pay attention to all the oxen we're goring, here.

389 I want to thank enviromentalism for making religion better.  Its' given smug, sanctomonius hypocrites a place to seek power over peoples lives without giving christianity a bad name.  Yes I am thinking of Al Gore when I write this.

390
Re:  In God we trust

Optimizer barfed his liberal professor's indoctrination...........
"Now, you do know that this motto was adopted in the 20th Century"

Has been on coinage since the mid-1800's.  Suck on that.

`The guiding principle and prayer of this Nation has been, is now, and ever shall be `In God We Trust.': Now, therefore, be it ..........JFK.......My how the Democratic party has deteriorated.

Also chiseled into the rostrum of House of Rep and entrance to Senate.

391 Nice post, Ace.

Alternate headline:

Militant Atheists Confirm Suspicions They Are Total Dicks.

392 "I must have missed that day in every science or philosophy class I ever took. Huh."
Its not hard to find the cosmological argument anywhere. The conclusion is inescapable: there has to be some kind of theistic creator; nothing else fits the facts.
However, I'm not surprised you didn't get any of that in college.

393 Optimizer - 373
Your comment is pretty insulting. It pre-supposes that one can only choose to lead a moral life because they live in fear of some supernatural being causing them endless misery if they fail to comply with their demands, which implies (again) that one has adopt a religion to be "a good person".

Re-read comment #367 again; it doesn't say that.

#367, paraphrased: If A, then B. A = if you really knew there would be a day of reckoning. B = it's unlikely you'd be unmoved (i.e., you'd live a better life). Note that "if not A" was NEVER addressed.

Your comment, paraphrased: "You're saying that if and only if A, then B." In other words, you assert that comment #367 stated both "If A, then B" and also "if not A, then not B." Which it never did.

As for why some (not all) atheists (who should really call themselves "anti-theists" if they're being honest) hate religion, I think the "you can't tell me what to do, Daddy" comment earlier hit the nail on the head. Religion puts demands on you: if there really is a God who created everything and has the right to tell you what to do (like "no having sex before marriage"), it's kind of inconvenient. So for these anti-theists, the mere fact that religion exists at all, and that someone, somewhere is judging them for what they like to do on Friday nights, is a real burr under their saddle. An honest atheist would say, "Meh. I don't believe in that religion, so what do I care about its value system? I'm going to live whatI think is a good life, since I'm the ultimate judge of my own actions." These anti-theists, on the other hand, definitely fall into the "doth protest too much" category.

394 Gah. I double-checked and thought I had closed all my italics... Oh well.

395 The first paragraph of my comment is a quote; the rest is my own words. (The italics were supposed to make that clear, but I messed up a close-italics tag.)

396 "Meh. I don't believe in that religion, so what do I care about its value system?"
Ideally yes, but as a culture we've moved past that. Instead of live and let live, now we're being ordered to shut up and not make people feel guilty or question what they do. Consider the Fluke nonsense. She was questioned as to her moral fibre and activities, and the left went absolutely berserk.
We've gone beyond bad being good and good being bad. We're to the point where if you even point out something wrong you're considered the real bad guy.

397 257 Like EoJ, Atheists should realize that my religion is the only thing that keeps me from killing them all and taking their women.
Except for the weekends.

The reason you don't kill this atheist and take his woman is because I shoot a .308 better than you do. And she'll shoot you as well.

That, and I am not a hobo.

You do not need religion to be civilized, and civilized people do not tolerate uncivilized or dishonorable behavior. Being an asshole is something anyone can accomplish, whether they are religious or atheist.

398 Lurker who works in IT:

EVERY group has its Toffler-grade true believers, people who will kill you is you disagree with them, and they have the power to do so.

This includes atheist groups.

The nutters are always there, beneath the surface. Some religions ( like Islam ) put them in charge, and murder ensues.

399 Masterful, Ace.

400 That was very well stated, Mr. Ace.