April 12, 2012
— Ace Punks. Hey, guess The Q got that one right and CNN got it wrong.
Among the "facts" it claims is that:
Zimmerman continued following Martin, though there is no evidence of that.
Zimmerman began the confrontation, though there is no evidence of that.
It is Trayvon Martin heard crying out for help in one 911 call, because Trayvon's mom says it's him. (Ignoring the witness who says it was Zimmerman, and also ignoring the strangeness of the guy on top crying out for help while the guy on the bottom stays heroically silent.)
The prosecution will need to prove these things, and I don't think they can.
The witness they'll be relying on, I assume, is Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the phone with her shortly before the confrontation -- but previously statements by her reported by the press didn't seem to concern any of the central points (like who began the confrontation). Oh: Maybe not. This is all hearsay, of course. Not sure if there's an exception to cover this. None occurs to me, off the top of my head.
I'd like to see if her statements have, um, evolved into a state that is more helpful to the prosecution.
Full document here. It's very thin. No evidence, of course, and barely even any assertions.
I Have A Big Relevant Question: We know about the fatal gunshot to Trayvon.
Did he have any signs of being punched on his face or body?
If he didn't -- then that does suggest that either he threw the first punch or was so dominant in the struggle that George Zimmerman could not lay a lick on him.
Zimmerman has at least two injuries -- nose and back of head -- so we know he at least got hit.
Did Trayvon?
Posted by: Ace at
02:05 PM
| Comments (466)
Post contains 326 words, total size 2 kb.
Posted by: John P. Squibob at April 12, 2012 02:07 PM (kqqGm)
I know they don't need to prove their case in the charging document, but don't they at least need to back up their assertions with some proven (or at least provable) facts?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:08 PM (8y9MW)
Isn't there some rule that allows hearsay testimony if it's from someone
who thought they were uttering (or were uttering) their dying words?
Florida law says this:
Hearsay exceptions.--The following are not excluded under s. 90.802, provided that the declarant is unavailable as a witness:***(b) Statement under belief of impending death.--In a civil or criminal trial, a statement made by a declarant
while reasonably believing that his or her death was imminent,
concerning the physical cause or instrumentalities of what the declarant believed to be impending death or the circumstances surrounding impending death." (Fla. Stat. Ann. § 90.804)
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 02:08 PM (QKKT0)
Posted by: The Fix Is In at April 12, 2012 02:08 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at April 12, 2012 02:09 PM (BvTwT)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:10 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: Mr Pink at April 12, 2012 02:10 PM (6GU3o)
Posted by: ryukyu at April 12, 2012 02:10 PM (MOHSR)
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 02:10 PM (QKKT0)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:10 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: Let 10 000 Flowers Bloom ... at April 12, 2012 02:11 PM (nrrR6)
Posted by: The Fix Is In at April 12, 2012 02:11 PM (m3R4Y)
After, of course, an appropriate interlude of post-state verdict rioting/wealth redistribution/score settling.
Posted by: John P. Squibob at April 12, 2012 02:12 PM (kqqGm)
Posted by: Red Mosquito at April 12, 2012 02:12 PM (jo0fs)
That will probably be one of the major pretrial battles to be decided by the judge. I don't think the answer is as clearly defined as you frame it.
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 02:13 PM (QKKT0)
It reads like a bad "dramatic document" from Law and Order or something.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:13 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 02:13 PM (pVvkk)
Get your marshmallows, 'cuz Florida is gonna burn!
BTW, did the prosecutor yesterday have her makeup gun set to "whore"?
Posted by: Oscar Meyer at April 12, 2012 02:14 PM (g8rV1)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 02:14 PM (pVvkk)
Posted by: Mandy P., lurker and stay-at-home mom at April 12, 2012 02:14 PM (qFpRI)
Posted by: Californian teacher at April 12, 2012 02:15 PM (WQxVv)
The professional politicians think they are managing the problem of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin by charging GZ. This way the streets will be quiet.
They forget or do not care about what will happen when GZ is declred innocent. This will not end well.
Their will be problems, especially if the trial occurs this Summer.
Posted by: rd at April 12, 2012 02:16 PM (9sUlj)
Nope. Still doesn't make sense to me.
Also filed under: "Secret too big to keep." Someone would know and go blabbing.
I don't think the answer is as clearly defined as you frame it.
It does say you have to believe you're in imminent danger of death (or something like that). If a fight hasn't even started yet, that's a bit far-fetched.
Especially for a 6-foot-whatever football player who is only (what?) 200 yards from his front door.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:16 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Mr Pink at April 12, 2012 02:16 PM (6GU3o)
Posted by: sydney jane at April 12, 2012 02:16 PM (3a4vw)
Posted by: The Fix Is In at April 12, 2012 02:17 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: Mandy P., lurker and stay-at-home mom at April 12, 2012 02:17 PM (qFpRI)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:17 PM (i6RpT)
Posted by: LASue at April 12, 2012 02:17 PM (I1icO)
Depends on how soon after he got hit that he would have died. Signs of damage such as bruising might not have had time to show up.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:18 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Hank Johnson, sensing a looming catastrophe at April 12, 2012 02:18 PM (V40IZ)
Posted by: where are my ping pong balls at April 12, 2012 02:18 PM (YxaXw)
Posted by: toby928© at April 12, 2012 02:18 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: Cast Iron at April 12, 2012 02:18 PM (EL+OC)
Posted by: mpfs at April 12, 2012 02:19 PM (iYbLN)
Posted by: the pink cracker formerly known as the hobbit Donna at April 12, 2012 02:19 PM (ZHge+)
I think the prosecution might be throwing the game.
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 12, 2012 02:19 PM (l1S+k)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:19 PM (i6RpT)
A mapping of chronological events could clear up any "eyewitness" embellishments.
Posted by: Fritz at April 12, 2012 02:19 PM (KWdVT)
If there is a new release of Air Jordans the day the verdict comes down I can guarantee a riot...just for the sneakers.
Posted by: mpfs at April 12, 2012 02:20 PM (iYbLN)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:20 PM (nj1bB)
This just seems so weird to me. It completely defies any rational explanation I can come up with (well, beyond pure political ambition), and the irrational explanations don't work for me either.
I feel like Ace trying to figure out Fast and Furious.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:21 PM (8y9MW)
Oh and after chopping a jalapeno pepper for fresh pico de gallo, it is advised that one washes their hands THOROUGHLY with soap before taking a leak.
A simple rinse will not do.
Posted by: ErikW at April 12, 2012 02:21 PM (sZbb4)
The market-ticker guy lives in Florida and indicates the state has quirky rules for 2nd degree murder. Which some of y'all lawyerly types might want to look at. Maybe. (He goes by Genesis in comments). I meant to get this in yesterday but didn't think you'd see it.
Posted by: Methos at April 12, 2012 02:21 PM (6LvlL)
Posted by: mpfs at April 12, 2012 02:21 PM (iYbLN)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:21 PM (nj1bB)
It seems very likely the forensics dont support the prosecution's so called case.
The witness accounts certainly dont.
And Rick Scott, for appointing this crass SP, in an act of appeasement, you are politically finished. Dont even bother running for re-election.
Posted by: njinfl at April 12, 2012 02:22 PM (SKSDk)
Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 12, 2012 02:22 PM (i0App)
No matter what happens, George Zimmerman is boned. He will be broke from defending himself against the criminal case and against the civil cases. And probably a federal civil rights case too.
Posted by: rd at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (9sUlj)
Posted by: Killjoy at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: Mandy P., lurker and stay-at-home mom at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (qFpRI)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (i6RpT)
Zimmerman began the confrontation, though there is no evidence of that."
Agreed.
Zimmerman (Z) followed Martin (M). 911 dispatcher suggest he not.
Z acknowledges suggestion and continues on cut-through to obtain most current dwelling number for police.
Z loses sight of M.
Z acquires address and turns, walks directly back to SUV.
M appears at cut-through sidewalk intersection to confront Z.
Confrontation escalates.
M strikes Z, Z falls back on grass/cement.
M continues assault - bashes Z's head to grass/cement.
Z screams for help.
Help not forthcoming, Z fires gun once in self-defense.
That scenario seems entirely reasonable based on the non-MFM evidence we know.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (eHIJJ)
The fix is in.
Right... Wasn't it over 6 weeks ago?
Posted by: the pink cracker formerly known as the hobbit Donna at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (ZHge+)
Only sort of. The bruising already has to have begun (as I understand it), and the timeline hear may be too tight for that. With no blood flowing, there's no blood to clot...
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:23 PM (8y9MW)
I am disturbed that there was no Grand Jury though. Short-cutting the process is never good. I am also keenly aware that, sadly, jury make-up may stand in the way of a fair trial.
Finally, I'm suspicious that this is a bit of political theater that will allowed to drag on until November to encourage a particular group to get out and vote. A Hispanic backlash vote would be sweet revenge, though.
Posted by: Lokki at April 12, 2012 02:24 PM (a5F9g)
Like, "GET... YOUR.. KNEE... OFF... MY... CHEST!... Gaaahh"
Posted by: JarvisW at April 12, 2012 02:24 PM (8yPsP)
Posted by: USA at April 12, 2012 02:24 PM (6Cjut)
Alan Dershowitz was on TV and ripped the charging papers submitted by the state attorney apart. He said it was a political document and that any good judge would throw it out.
He thinks it might be that she overcharged to try and get a plea deal because he sees no way it gets by preliminary hearing.
Posted by: robtr at April 12, 2012 02:24 PM (MtwBb)
Posted by: LASue at April 12, 2012 02:24 PM (I1icO)
Posted by: Palerider at April 12, 2012 02:24 PM (dkExz)
Posted by: S-Cargo at April 12, 2012 02:25 PM (xP8Aq)
You mean a broken nose might heal in 7 weeks? The devil, you say!
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:25 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Mandy P., lurker and stay-at-home mom at April 12, 2012 02:25 PM (qFpRI)
Posted by: LASue at April 12, 2012 06:24 PM (I1icO)
Especially 6 weeks later.
Posted by: Tami at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (X6akg)
"AllenG, if CSI is telling me the truth, and it always has so far, you can see bruises that haven't blossomed by using black light or other means."
There is also a magic "enhance" feature on police computers that can take the four pixels comprising the license plate of a car in the background of a photo from a red-light camera, and make them magically increase their resolution to the point that you can clearly make out the plate's characters, too.
Posted by: reason at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (V40IZ)
Posted by: O J Shabazz at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (ndlFj)
Well this is Florida so never underestimate the power combination of incompetence and personal ambition.
Posted by: Mætenloch at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (/3HNy)
Posted by: mpfs at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (iYbLN)
Couple of weeks ago, the 'legal experts' were saying that since there were no charges/no arrest....on the night it happened....that the scene wouldn't have been processed like it would have been if Zimmerman had been arrested.
They said that the lack of hard evidence either way, would help Zimmerman's defense if he were ever arrested.
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (+5U+B)
Way back when, our platoon was doing some chem warfare training. Basically, they threw tear gas canisters at us and we had to don our masks. One poor bastard found out that "all clear" to remove the mask was not clear enough to take a leak.
Posted by: fluffy at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (z9HTb)
Posted by: Y-not at April 12, 2012 02:26 PM (5H6zj)
What. A. Whore. Hannity is no better.
Posted by: pep at April 12, 2012 02:27 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: tasker at April 12, 2012 02:27 PM (r2PLg)
Posted by: John Cooper at April 12, 2012 02:27 PM (jDV3r)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:27 PM (nj1bB)
Is there a cite for that? 'cause I'm pretty sure if someone is choking you and you shot them dead it's copacetic, since it happened to my wife's uncle.
Posted by: toby928© at April 12, 2012 02:27 PM (GTbGH)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (BB0/w)
Posted by: Who Knows at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (W+Itt)
I wonder how many of the witnesses will be intimidated? They do not have to change their stpry, just say I do not remember.
After all, the locals, state and feds did nothing when GZ was threatened and had wanted posters issued. Why should any witnesses think they will be protected?
Posted by: rd at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (9sUlj)
Posted by: Y-not at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (5H6zj)
Ummm... that's completely wrong. Like 100%.
Well, okay, maybe not 100%. A "fistfight" wherein both participants are actually fighting (say- a bar fight, or a couple of kids "out in the parking lot"), might not rise to the correct level.
When someone jumps me, I don't have to see a weapon, I just get to shoot. If it turns out he wasn't armed, that's too bad for him.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (8y9MW)
Still wondering why the person about to commit murder 2 called 911 just before doing so.
Anyone answer that yet?
Posted by: AndrewsDad at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (C2//T)
Posted by: rd at April 12, 2012 06:16 PM (9sUlj)
Trial can't occur later than October, unless GZ waives his right to a speedy trial, which in Florida means no more than 175 days after arrest.
Posted by: Jon at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (QBSkP)
Anyone else remember that?
Posted by: tasker at April 12, 2012 06:27 PM (r2PLg)
No, the dispatcher was male.
On one of the 911 calls from neighbors, the dispatcher was female.
Posted by: Tami at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (X6akg)
I haven't read anyone bring this up but shouldn't we have a record of where Zimmerman was while he was on the phone with 911? Don't our phones automatically go into GPS mode when we dial 911? His precise movements and the timing of them while he was on the phone ... This "should" be stone cold fact, right?
Posted by: canoedad at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (L76Lq)
The question is whether they can find a jury that will convict.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 02:28 PM (nEUpB)
Thank you for your concern. I believe folks are discussing Florida law, not US law, whatever that is.
Posted by: fluffy at April 12, 2012 02:29 PM (z9HTb)
Posted by: tsrblke at April 12, 2012 02:29 PM (SYrwI)
Posted by: runninrebel at April 12, 2012 06:28 PM (N/1Dm)
Please elaborate.
Posted by: Robert at April 12, 2012 02:30 PM (F79HU)
You will be hearing about him as a martyr regardless. Think Mumia.
Posted by: pep at April 12, 2012 02:30 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:30 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: tasker at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (r2PLg)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (i6RpT)
Posted by: THE FIX IS IN at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: Avi at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (J3gb4)
"Ummm it's a month and a half later? WTF were they expecting?"
He should've opted to wear the obviously-fake cervical collar.
Posted by: reason at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (V40IZ)
Blood.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (8y9MW)
Way back when, our platoon was doing some chem warfare training. Basically, they threw tear gas canisters at us and we had to don our masks. One poor bastard found out that "all clear" to remove the mask was not clear enough to take a leak.
Posted by: fluffy at April 12, 2012 06:26 PM (z9HTb)
I'm a civvy so I obviously have no experience with tear gas, but yeah.
It burns.
Posted by: ErikW at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (sZbb4)
Posted by: Fritz at April 12, 2012 02:31 PM (KWdVT)
Zimmerman has at least two injuries -- nose and back of head -- so we know he at least got hit.
Did Trayvon?
Relevant, isn't it?Not so much, no.
If the prosecution can convince the jury that Zimmerman was a willing participant in the fight, it doesn't much matter who was getting beat up the worst.
You can't pick a fight then shoot your opponent if he's winning- even if you have reason to believe your life is in danger.
I'm not suggesting that's what happened, but I suspect that's what the prosecution is going to try and prove. Under that scenario, the Stand Your Ground law offers no protection.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 02:32 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 12, 2012 02:32 PM (i0App)
Ummmm, Ann Romney. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Posted by: pep at April 12, 2012 02:32 PM (6TB1Z)
Me too, but my girlfriend at the time learned a much more powerful lesson.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 02:32 PM (nEUpB)
Posted by: ace at April 12, 2012 02:32 PM (nj1bB)
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 02:33 PM (OhYCU)
Posted by: THE FIX IS IN at April 12, 2012 02:33 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 02:33 PM (BB0/w)
---
Same here. They know they'll probably lose at trial, and that it'll bring on the riots and race wars. I still don't know how that helps the Dems, but given the extent to which they gin it up they must see some benefit.
There would probably be riots either way. Zimmerman not charged? Riots. Zimmerman charged and acquitted? Riots. Zimmerman charged and found guilty? Riots. People riot when sports teams lose and when they win. If people want to riot, or gin up riots, the specifics don't matter.
Posted by: Mayday at April 12, 2012 02:33 PM (orrLR)
Posted by: garrett at April 12, 2012 02:33 PM (akP5G)
Posted by: pep at April 12, 2012 06:27 PM (6TB1Z)
Your first mistake was viewing or listening to FNC. Your second mistake was posting it here.
Posted by: Cast Iron at April 12, 2012 02:33 PM (EL+OC)
As for deathbed confession bullshit, there is NONE. There is a statement by his GF that is hearsay because she was not there.
Her statement may be admitted in court provided she gives it personally in court and subject to cross examination. Hearsay evidence is admissible in most States, but it doesn't carry a lot of weight and the defense should remind the jury of that.
Posted by: Vic at April 12, 2012 02:34 PM (YdQQY)
Posted by: tasker at April 12, 2012 02:34 PM (r2PLg)
Posted by: S-Cargo at April 12, 2012 02:34 PM (xP8Aq)
As I have previously mentioned, the AP said that there could be a pre-trial hearing by a judge. If the judge thinks that there is a preponderance of evidence that Zimmerman acted in self defense, he can dismiss the charges.
Of course, then Spike Lee will be tweeting the judge's home address within an hour.
Posted by: GnuBreed at April 12, 2012 02:34 PM (cHZB7)
Florida should be quite the madhouse in the 10 months or so:
GOP National Convention and Occutards throwing rocks and feces at passing conventioneers + New Black Panther inspired riots if Zimmerman is acquitted + the practically inevitable Hanging Chad 2: the Barack Years if Obama loses re-election by the margin of Florida.
Caliente!!
Posted by: MikeD at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (p8QOg)
Posted by: Avi at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (J3gb4)
Posted by: Red Mosquito at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (jo0fs)
Posted by: Sly and The Family Stone at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (GsBJY)
Posted by: ThomasD at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (eDrvo)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (i6RpT)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (BB0/w)
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 02:35 PM (Bughn)
Posted by: THE FIX IS IN at April 12, 2012 02:36 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: lowandslow at April 12, 2012 02:36 PM (5EhJq)
Posted by: tasker at April 12, 2012 02:36 PM (r2PLg)
Posted by: S-Cargo at April 12, 2012 06:25 PM (xP8Aq)
----Color me dubious. No one is entitled to a free punch, much less several.
Totally unrelated to that, has anybody noticed whether the string of robberies that had Zimmerman on edge has continued?
Posted by: Methos at April 12, 2012 02:36 PM (6LvlL)
I checked Lexis to see if I could find a similar fact pattern where the dying declaration exception was applied. I didn't find any case where the victim made admissible statements prior to being seriously injured. However, it is an unusual set of circumstances (if these facts are to be believed) for someone being pursued by his eventual killer to make a phone call and describe the events before the shooting starts.
Under these purported facts, if this testimony is allowed it would be a very controversial ruling by the trial judge.
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 02:36 PM (QKKT0)
"When someone jumps me, I don't have to see a weapon, I just get to shoot. If it turns out he wasn't armed, that's too bad for him."
Your assailant, like Tray Von, was armed with a loaded sidewalk.
I fail to see any difference between a rock that he picks up and brings to your head vs. a rock that is stationary while he brings your head to it.
The media continuing to make sure that they point out Tray Von was "unarmed" is intentionally misleading.
Posted by: reason at April 12, 2012 02:36 PM (V40IZ)
Posted by: Neil Kinnock at April 12, 2012 02:37 PM (c3mby)
But don't the charges actually have to be accepted? I mean- it seems messed up to me (not that that means anything) that you could be hit with a completely spurious charge that doesn't even make past prelim, and then still get hit with a civil suit.
Our law isn't that effed up, is it?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:37 PM (8y9MW)
He is a real estate broker for Century 21 affiliated with USAA. People were pissed.
Posted by: mpfs at April 12, 2012 02:37 PM (iYbLN)
-----------------------
All phones are always in the "GPS" mode so to speak (triangulation from the cell towers). They do that whether you are making a call or not. The only way to turn it off is kill or remove the battery.
Posted by: Vic at April 12, 2012 02:37 PM (YdQQY)
Completely false. First of all, "the U.S." doesn't interpret anything- self defense laws vary by state. Second, most such state laws make no distinction about whether a weapon is involved or not.
If a 90 pound female finds herself being attacked by a 250 pound MMA champion, you can bet your ass that her fear of "death or great bodily harm" is reasonable.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 02:37 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: tasker at April 12, 2012 02:37 PM (r2PLg)
Hey, can I be a witness in the case? I have some hearsay that might be useful.
You know Trayvon called me right before he got shot and said "Hello, I know this a wrong number but there is a burly looking white-hispanic individual who is menacing me...wait, I do believe he wants my Skittles!"
"Oh, the humanity, take them you beast, but please spare my life as I have hopes of winning the Nobel Reese's Peace Prize this year, just as the President who, if he had a son, would provide me a doppleganger who would be beside me saving kittens from alligators, that is if the President's son weren't oppressed by the Man denying his right to have existence."
Posted by: Tear the Proof Off the Sucker at April 12, 2012 02:38 PM (y6YwR)
Somehow, a gangstah wannabe with tats and a gold grill, along with all the badass posing tells his girlfriend that one short guy following him is scaring him and he just wants to run home
RIGHT
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 02:38 PM (Y+DPZ)
If so, our legal system is far inferior to what I had thought. If not, the prosecution is cretinous.
Maybe some of you on this "smart, legal blog" can help.
Posted by: Army of Fact-Checkers at April 12, 2012 02:38 PM (miAG4)
Posted by: Avi at April 12, 2012 02:38 PM (J3gb4)
Posted by: National Pink Panther Party at April 12, 2012 02:39 PM (WQxVv)
Posted by: LASue at April 12, 2012 02:39 PM (I1icO)
he needs a Spanish speaking lawyer.
War on Hispanics
Rubio should hire the attorney
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 02:39 PM (OhYCU)
Is the fact that property owners actually owns the roads and sidewalks in the subdivision relevant? None less than their very own front and back yards that Martin was in?
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 02:39 PM (7MFxV)
Wrong, if you attempt to retreat or otherwise end the fight, and your opponent chooses to continue, and you believe you are at risk for death or great bodily harm then you most certainly can use deadly force.
Posted by: ThomasD at April 12, 2012 02:39 PM (eDrvo)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 02:40 PM (oZfic)
Anyone answer that yet?
According to some random idiot on Twitter, Zimmerman intended to kill Treyvon from the beginning and called 911 as an alibi.
I did say "idiot", right?
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 02:40 PM (SY2Kh)
Not true. You can sue someone for wrongful death civilly regardless of whether there was a criminal prosecution. The nice thing for the plainitff is that the burden of proof is much lower - a "preponderance of the evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt."
That's how the Goldmans could win against OJ in civil court after OJ had been acquitted criminally. The two results weren't inconsistent. The Goldmans just had a lower standard of proof to hit than the prosecutors did.
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 02:40 PM (QKKT0)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 06:18 PM (8y9MW)
----------------------------------------
But soft tissue damage would still show up under microscopic examination. The first thing I would do as a defense lawyer is have T disinterred and re-examined by an independent, or, at least, a consulting forensic pathologist.
Posted by: Soona at April 12, 2012 02:41 PM (Jdmxh)
But didn't the mom say something today which made people think she thought this was an accident? That must mean they got all the ballistics reports back.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 02:41 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: Ellen at April 12, 2012 02:41 PM (4xScK)
Posted by: Army of Fact-Checkers at April 12, 2012 02:41 PM (8Kv96)
It can. It's not like he was getting any deader, and the blood-work can take quite a while to come back. In that respect, CSI, Bones, or any other "procedural drama" does not depict anything near the truth.
The crime of Aggravated Assault is defined as:
Which has nothing to do with a self-defense claim- idiot. If somebody jumps me (Zimmerman's claim) then I get to defend myself. I don't have to wait to see if he's "just" going to assault me, or if he's actually trying to kill me.
If Zimmerman is lying about the events, then assault still doesn't enter into it, and we're looking at something between manslaughter and murder, again.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:42 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Concerned Texan at April 12, 2012 02:42 PM (mvx9g)
Avi,
Hopefully GZ will get multiple teams of lawyers if he can afford it:
1. Criminal Defense
2. Civil Suit Defense
3. Slander suits against NBC, CNN, etc.
Some one else said it on another thread. Have a 6'2" 170 pound defense attorney sit next to George Zimmerman during the trial.
Posted by: rd at April 12, 2012 02:42 PM (9sUlj)
My wife is certain of Zimmerman's guilt. When a local news at 11 promo came on during her show last night stating that Zimmerman had been charged, she let out a "gooooood" with a syrupy timber that would have given Emperor Palpatine the vapors.
I'm not sure why she's so certain. Other than she thinks the media totally ignore crimes against nonwhites, and so therefore the fact that this one is Big News is a Good Thing.
Posted by: Truman North at April 12, 2012 02:42 PM (I2LwF)
Posted by: Ellen at April 12, 2012 06:41 PM (4xScK)
This happened Feb. 26th....it's April 12th.
Posted by: Tami at April 12, 2012 02:43 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 02:43 PM (OhYCU)
Posted by: Ellen at April 12, 2012 06:41 PM (4xScK)
I have broken my nose / had my nose broken three times.
Bruising never lasted more than 3-4 days for me.
Posted by: garrett at April 12, 2012 02:43 PM (akP5G)
So, no, a weapon is not required....
Posted by: ThomasD at April 12, 2012 02:44 PM (eDrvo)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 02:44 PM (BB0/w)
Posted by: Al Franken, Legal Scholar Extraordinaire at April 12, 2012 02:44 PM (bjosw)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 06:40 PM (oZfic)
They probably just thought he was going out to bring more stolen stuff home, like that women's jewelry they caught him with at school.
He was a good boy.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (Bughn)
Posted by: Avi at April 12, 2012 06:38 PM (J3gb4)
---No. I'll leave that to TMZ or whomever. If it was someone else, I'm wondering if s/he took the opportunity to head for cover (since ace is talking about stuff he learned from CSI). Or the deterrent effect of the shooting.
Posted by: Methos at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (6LvlL)
Posted by: redc1c4 at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (8MasJ)
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (OhYCU)
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (Ec6wH)
Posted by: ThomasD at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (eDrvo)
Looks like they got a whole lot of nothing on Zimmerman and are trying to scare him into a plea deal to appease the savages.
It just might work. The guy is probably scared out of his mind. If he does time, it'll be in solitary. Otherwise, he'll be killed by the black inmates.
Posted by: Warden at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (HzhBE)
A wrongful death lawsuit doesn't require that the defendant has been charged criminally. Ask an obstetrician.
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (QKKT0)
Did I see that, or was that made up??
Cause if thats the case, her testimony would end the case right there!
Posted by: JarvisW at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (8yPsP)
You mean the one from several years ago? 'Cause there's not a "recent" mug-shot out yet, that I've seen.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:45 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Al Franken, Legal Scholar Extraordinaire at April 12, 2012 02:46 PM (bjosw)
I seriously doubt that Trayvon was silent on the subject of what he wanted to do to Zimmerman.
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 02:46 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: Ellen at April 12, 2012 02:46 PM (4xScK)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 02:46 PM (0tRzD)
The mug shots that are floating around are from a previous arrest, not the incident at hand.
Posted by: Xander Crews at April 12, 2012 02:46 PM (cfnVv)
Just give me a fucking mailing address for this guy's legal defense fund.
He needs a really good criminal lawyer right now and pronto.
This all sounds like horseshit.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 02:46 PM (Bughn)
I have broken my nose three times (once at the hands of a sparring partner who weighed 100 lbs. soaking wet), and only once did I get the classic black eyes etc.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 02:47 PM (nEUpB)
"Hum, tweeting a Judges Address? That just might land your ass in jail?"
*looks up*
...did you just hear something?
*shrugs and goes back to playing Angry Birds*
Posted by: The Department of Just-Us at April 12, 2012 02:47 PM (sPO/s)
Posted by: cowboyup at April 12, 2012 02:47 PM (F9eng)
Also, I hope the other 2 Hilary Rosen's remember this on election day.
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 02:48 PM (OhYCU)
I think Zimmerman's defense should rush to get a statement from the girlfriend before the prosecution has a chance to thoroughly coach her.
Posted by: GnuBreed at April 12, 2012 02:48 PM (cHZB7)
Depends on state law, but then you're in a very grey area either way in terms of proving self defense. If you claim that you cried "uncle" then fired because your opponent didn't immediately desist... well, good luck with the jury on that one.
In Zimmerman's case he can credibly claim that he couldn't retreat, but with very little in the way of evidence or witnesses (there was one witness who didn't see the shooting), it's not exactly a bulletproof defense.
Bottom line- NEVER put yourself in a situation likely to lead to physical confrontation if you're carrying.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 02:48 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 02:48 PM (0tRzD)
Posted by: Racefan at April 12, 2012 02:49 PM (YS0qL)
quote:
Hearsay is the legal term for testimony in a court proceeding where the witness does not have direct knowledge of the fact asserted, but knows it only from being told by someone.
In general the witness will make a statement such as, "Sally told me Tom was in town," as opposed to "I saw Tom in town," which is direct evidence. Hearsay is not allowed as evidence in the United States, unless one of about thirty exceptions applies to the particular statement being made.
-------------
30 execeptions makes it admisable in a lot of states. For example the Judge allowed it in the Drew Peterson case.
Posted by: Vic at April 12, 2012 02:50 PM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Concerned Texan at April 12, 2012 06:42 PM (mvx9g)
Duly noted. I'm a fan of the pico and will try a serrano next time. 
Posted by: ErikW at April 12, 2012 02:50 PM (sZbb4)
Posted by: National Association for the Advancement of Pink People at April 12, 2012 02:50 PM (BVkEs)
Posted by: BlueFalcon in Boston would be forever alone without AoS at April 12, 2012 02:50 PM (KCvsd)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 02:50 PM (niW49)
The "Dying Declaration" thing is limited to when you're actually dying<<<
I know it doesn't apply in this case, but what about declarations made while you're nutting? Inadmissible?
I think they should be inadmissible.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 12, 2012 02:50 PM (JDIKC)
Never mind, I just remembered the OJ trial and how effing stupid people can be. This time, they will ignore the defense and not the prosecution.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 12, 2012 02:51 PM (7utQ2)
Who brought up the Castle Doctrine? Did I miss a post?
Self-Defense is applicable anywhere- someone attacks me, I get to kill them.
FL's "Stand your ground" means you don't have to try to run away first.
The Castle Doctrine says (more-or-less) that you don't even have to wait to see if someone is going to attack you- if you "feel" threatened, you get to kill someone attempting to enter your property.
but with very little in the way of evidence or witnesses (there was one witness who didn't see the shooting), it's not exactly a bulletproof defense.
Doesn't have to be. Just has to be "Reasonable Doubt," which I think he certainly has.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:51 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Max Power at April 12, 2012 02:51 PM (q177U)
GPS can get close but I seriously doubt a retail, OTC phone has anywhere near the coordinate system to track within a few tens of feet. It's probably more like using a finer tuned Mapquest or Google maps, but close is no cigar. It's just not going to be accurate enough for that kind of forensic review. Timestamping, however, could be very good. Possibly within (milli)seconds if the times are syncing properly with a validated server.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 12, 2012 02:51 PM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 02:52 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: Bill D. Cat at April 12, 2012 02:52 PM (npr0X)
202 Don't you have to be on your own property, at least, for castle to apply?
Zimmerman lived there, I believe. .....Trayvon did not...but was a guest there.
But then, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that Trayvon had any real reason to be hanging around in the rain, in the dark.
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 02:52 PM (+5U+B)
Posted by: GnuBreed at April 12, 2012 06:48 PM
Any interviews with her by investigators would have to be transcribed, and I don't see that she's given a sworn affadavit. Even if neither has occurred, she can't be allowed as a witness until the defense counsel has had a chance to interview her
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (Y+DPZ)
"Some of our viewers are complaining, they get frustrated, even angered, when they see the first family jetting around, different vacations and so forth, sometimes maybe they think under color of state business and that you're out of touch, that you don't really know what they're experiencing right now.”
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (OhYCU)
I think they should be inadmissible.
Did you think 'Nutting' was imminent? You did?
Your Honor, I move to strike.
Posted by: garrett at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (akP5G)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (pVvkk)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (i6RpT)
Sorry Dude. You must have a rough time with her.
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (CMM9V)
I'm sure some hotshot Florida defense attorneys would love to get in on this case.
Talk about a career maker!
That indictment sounds like shit.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (Bughn)
-------------------------------
That is almost exactly what happened at the Peterson trial.
Posted by: Vic at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (YdQQY)
Ever been scared?
Half-assed training flies out the window. Only really good, long-term stuff with lots of repetition will actually be of any use when the shit hits the fan.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (nEUpB)
in FL, you do not need to try to escape an attacker before using deadly force, regardless of where you are. If you believe your life is in danger or are facing grievous bodily harm, you can shoot the bastard
Posted by: SantaRosaStan at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (Dll6b)
Not saying any or every black person would hurt or kill him, but I'd imagine there are enough around that would to make it dangerous for him.
Posted by: Mayday at April 12, 2012 02:53 PM (orrLR)
I've seen it posted that Florida law is different; no charge, no civil damages possible.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at April 12, 2012 02:54 PM (VMcoS)
Posted by: Ellen at April 12, 2012 02:54 PM (4xScK)
If so, and Martin didn't live inside, how did he get inside?
If he lived inside, why didn't he know the neighborhood watch fellow?
Posted by: Methos at April 12, 2012 02:54 PM (6LvlL)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 02:54 PM (BB0/w)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 06:52 PM (oZfic)
He shot the child in the back while eating the poor lad's Skittles.
Posted by: Al Sharpton, NAN Grand Wizard at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (BVkEs)
Posted by: deadrody at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (eOvu0)
[cough, cough] That white, Hispanic cracker shot me![cough, cough]
Posted by: zombie trayvon martin at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (HFim5)
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (Bughn)
It might be admissible in part and for some uses, as either an excited utterance or statement of then existing emotional state, but its not a slam dunk.
Posted by: Vermin at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (2csLb)
215 They WANT to lose the case.
The question is why? Why would you want to lose a heated racially toxic case in an election year.? Why would the prosecution over reach...on purpose?
To stall for time, until after the election? .....Which is not a bad idea, really. ....It took two years for the Anthony case to get to trial.
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (+5U+B)
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (VMcoS)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 02:55 PM (i6RpT)
Ever been scared?
Half-assed training flies out the window. Only really good, long-term stuff with lots of repetition will actually be of any use when the shit hits the fan.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 06:53 PM (nEUpB)
Yeah... this.. unless its automatic shit happens how it happens...Probably the only smart thing Mike Tyson has ever said is " everyone has a plan, until they get hit "
Posted by: The Jackhole at April 12, 2012 02:56 PM (nTgAI)
Actually, I read somewhere that just that has happened. Indeed, that Trayvon has been seen on video from the 7-11 in question. Honestly, except for the emotional "he just wanted some skittles and iced tea!" I'm not sure what the point of that bit of The Narrative is.
For a guy who was heading up the neighborhood watch, Zimmerman made some really simple, dumb errors.
I'm not so sure he did. Things I've read indicate everything he did was okay. He was never, from what I can tell, "chasing" Martin, but moving to a position where he could direct police so they could find him.
There is some question of if he approached Martin on a detour back to his truck, and if so (he probably did) why, but with that single exception, nothing he did was "likely to lead to violence."
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:56 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: SantaRosaStan at April 12, 2012 02:56 PM (Dll6b)
Why do they want to lose?
Look what the dominant patriarchy did to us! We have to continue to fight against the White Male dominated country so that we people of color and vagina and handicap can fuck with contraception provided by the man!
Vote Obama, so YOUR son isn't the next Trayvon.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 02:56 PM (nEUpB)
Posted by: Truman North at April 12, 2012 06:42 PM
Does she think the Trayvon Martin that was shot that night looks just like the angel faced choir boy in the pictures the MBM shows us?
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 02:56 PM (Y+DPZ)
anyone have links to the most recent photos of Trayvon?
My father asked me to send him those as he thought the kid was like 12 from the photos in the news.
Posted by: garrett at April 12, 2012 02:56 PM (akP5G)
I suspect good arguments can be made for the "excited utterance," or "spontaneous statement," or "then-existing mental, emotional, or physical condition" exceptions, subject to establishing that Martin, indeed, made the call to his g/f.
Posted by: Jazz at April 12, 2012 02:57 PM (NzrVU)
Posted by: robtr at April 12, 2012 02:57 PM (MtwBb)
Posted by: garrett at April 12, 2012 02:57 PM (akP5G)
The question is why? Why would you want to lose a heated racially toxic case in an election year.? Why would the prosecution over reach...on purpose?
Posted by: Max Power at April 12, 2012 06:51 PM (q177U)
---Maybe the prosecutor has just misread the situation because she's been surrounded by a screaming torch-wielding mob.
Posted by: Methos at April 12, 2012 02:57 PM (6LvlL)
239 The jury will see the gold teeth and tats and the gang shit and all the stuff the MSM are hiding.
Let's hope so. .....If it is deliberately kept out of the jury's consideration, then it would be a travesty.
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 02:57 PM (+5U+B)
249 My wife is certain of Zimmerman's guilt. When a
local news at 11 promo came on during her show last night stating that
Zimmerman had been charged, she let out a "gooooood" with a syrupy
timber that would havegiven Emperor Palpatine the vapors.
Posted by: Truman North at April 12, 2012 06:42 PM
Jesus.
I'd rather hang out at Penis Park.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 02:57 PM (Bughn)
where my younger daughter lives, the code is #1234. Everyone knows that
Posted by: SantaRosaStan at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (Dll6b)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (oZfic)
Has this fact come out?
Posted by: John at April 12, 2012 06:56 PM (k5Bku)
I'd say it was in the front, otherwise the LSM would be telling us how he was shot in the back by a coward, etc..
Posted by: JarvisW at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (8yPsP)
A woman was married to a very physically abusive husband including multiple hospital visits. When she eventually had enough and left him, running off to a relative's house, the husband tracked her down and nearly beat her to death, puncturing her lung.
Some time after her recovery, she served him dinner. He says something along the lines of "I'm sick and tired of eating the same crap you serve day after day. I'm going to eat this shitty meal, then I'm going to kill you."
She walked away, retrieved her husband's gun, walked up behind him while he was eating, and shot him in the back of the head, killing him.
Verdict? Not guilty- self defense. She had tried to retreat previously, but that only bought her a vicious beating. Having nearly been beaten to death in the past, she had legitimate reason to fear death or great bodily harm after he threatened to kill her. She obviously didn't ask to be beaten.
There was a photo of her being led away after the shooting, smiling and holding up a finger in response to the neighbor lady asking her how many times she shot the SOB.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (SY2Kh)
I had one that never really showed, either. I was even able to pull a party trick where I popped the cartilage off and slide it around for a few years.
Eventually, I stopped screwing with it long enough that it healed.
Compare this with a co-worker of mine who broke his nose twenty years ago, and you can still tell.
Posted by: Meiczyslaw at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (bjRNS)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: Ellen at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (4xScK)
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at April 12, 2012 02:58 PM (VMcoS)
Posted by: real joe at April 12, 2012 02:59 PM (w7Lv+)
Well first off "Gated" might be a bit of a generous term. There probably are gates, but I doubt if they're ever closed and locked.
Second, he didn't live there. He lived (I seem to recall) in Miami with his mom. He was visiting his dad at his dad's fiance's house.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:59 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 03:00 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: The Political Hat at April 12, 2012 03:00 PM (XvHmy)
This wasn't training going out the window under duress. This has every appearance of a wannabe cop who totally f*cked up an otherwise normal suspicious person call.
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 03:00 PM (niW49)
I think Trayvon killed Nicole and Ron. It's a good thing Zimmerman got to him before OJ did.
The real tragedy is that the Homeowners' Associations of America are going to be burning up the printing press in their monthly newsletters advising their inmates, er, residents of the need to withdraw from potential confrontations.
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at April 12, 2012 03:00 PM (Ec6wH)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 03:00 PM (i6RpT)
Posted by: Mayday at April 12, 2012 06:53 PM
The MBM used the 7 year old mug shot so much that most of them think he looks like a fat Latino.
I know a lot of guys in Los Angeles who could be mistaken for the mug shot George Zimmerman
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 03:01 PM (Y+DPZ)
Posted by: Truck Monkey at April 12, 2012 03:01 PM (jucos)
Posted by: The Jackhole at April 12, 2012 06:56 PM (nTgAI)
There is a book called On Killing, that is a good read on the physiological and psychological effects of that kind of amped stress. It is way worse than buck fever.
Posted by: Hydrocarbon Liberation Front at April 12, 2012 03:01 PM (NVu2l)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 12, 2012 03:02 PM (JDIKC)
I'm pretty sure that did come out- front.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 06:58 PM (SY2Kh)
Brings a tear to my eye, that does.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 03:03 PM (8y9MW)
The question is why? Why would you want to lose a heated racially toxic case in an election year.? Why would the prosecution over reach...on purpose?
A loss will make the Black vote turn out strongly.... at least in Florida which is a battleground state. Every vote matters (except for military votes). Obama's concern is that voter apathy will cause supporters to stay home. Republicans are motivated to vote this time.... Dem's not so much. It's kind of interesting to see the various groups getting their boxes checked off. The 'woman's rights' group stays angry so they were riled early. They'll turn out in Nov. Blacks will need another motivator, so an October verdict is perfect. Blocking the pipeline for enviro's.... he needs to do something for the anti-war group though. Wonder what and when. An early September withdrawal from Afghanistan?
Posted by: Lokki at April 12, 2012 03:03 PM (a5F9g)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 03:03 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: BlueFalcon in Boston would be forever alone without AoS at April 12, 2012 03:03 PM (KCvsd)
A good defense attorney will tear an asshole out of this angelic Trayvon crap.
He probably has been a mini-gagbanging wannabe and has been disciplined a dozen times.
He was suspended again when this happened. A bad little fucker.
This sort of shocking pathopsychology is the norm for those kids and their idiot parents saw nothing amiss with their suspended son disappearing for a couple of days.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 03:04 PM (Bughn)
Posted by: ReadyorNot at April 12, 2012 03:04 PM (KlQV1)
Good Question for the officers on the scene.....
"Why did you not arrest George Zimmerman on the night that this happened?"
I should think that their testimony would help Zimmerman's defense. ....I also think that SP would have had to have already gotten their stories.
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 03:04 PM (+5U+B)
Hahahahaaaa!
Truman married my first wife! Chump-ass rookie mistake, dude! Shoulda run a HoFax on her first - they'd have put you in touch with me.
It's keepsies! No givebacks!
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 12, 2012 03:04 PM (JDIKC)
Posted by: Sloe Joe at April 12, 2012 03:04 PM (KWdVT)
Total bullshit.
Neighborhood Watch status doesn't automatically negate the 2nd Amendment. He can carry because it's still America!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 12, 2012 03:04 PM (nEUpB)
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at April 12, 2012 03:05 PM (Ec6wH)
I sit corrected.
Though I notice they're still running w/ 12 yr-old Trayvon, not 17 yr-old, tattooed, gold-grilled Trayvon.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 03:05 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 03:05 PM (CMM9V)
Leave her alone. She's exhausted and her fingers are really stiff.
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 03:06 PM (QKKT0)
Posted by: nevergiveup at April 12, 2012 06:55 PM (i6RpT)
---Wasn't he 17? If he's living with his father at the father's girlfriends, unless he moved in very recently, why didn't he know or wasn't he known by the watch (I can't see a watch being terribly effective if they don't know who is supposed to be there.)?
Posted by: Methos at April 12, 2012 03:06 PM (6LvlL)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 12, 2012 07:02 PM (JDIKC)
I'm not giving you my twitter handle. I was an early adopter, it's my name.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:06 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: Captain Kirk at April 12, 2012 03:06 PM (HzhBE)
Posted by: real joe at April 12, 2012 06:59 PM (w7Lv+)
The defense attorneys will see it at discovery. And if it's crap, it'll be leaked pronto.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (Bughn)
Haven't people learned by now that EVERYTHING that Al Sharpton touches is tainted goods?
And once a wildfire gets going, it's hard to beat it back - you may think that you have it under control, but once it is raging, it has a mind of its own.
Black lynch mobs - they're on TV, and people still claim they aren't happening.....
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (0xqzf)
I don't. The link I saw had links to other sites which I did not verify, so take it with the appropriate salt. But, again, I don't see why the truth (or not) of that claim matters one wit.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (8y9MW)
i suspect it was the girlfriend who told martin he'd better stop running turn around and go beat the crap out of that white man or he wasn't getting any poontang in the foreseeable future
Posted by: kj at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (zdvxY)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (CMM9V)
I did this every day in school for about a year.
Strangely enough, this guy sucker punched me in the nose, then jumped on top of me. I had no gun, so I launched him into outer space with both legs into the nuts. His wounds were not very visible, but he was in more more pain than I was (although I was bleeding about three T-shirts-full)
Posted by: cherry at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (OhYCU)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:07 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:06 PM (oZfic)
TunaCrotchStreetwalker?
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 03:08 PM (GULKT)
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 06:55 PM (+5U+B)
------------------------------------------
That's my take. He's in jail now. Wait until the news vans, NBPP, SEIU and the other leftist miscreants move on to the next racial crisis (and we know there will be). Then quietly drop the charges, you know, like around Nov. 4th.
Posted by: Soona at April 12, 2012 03:08 PM (Jdmxh)
Posted by: Curiously stupid at April 12, 2012 03:08 PM (HzhBE)
He wasn't "living there," he was visiting. If I understand correctly, he was "laying low" until he could get back into school back in Miami.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 03:09 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 03:09 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:06 PM (oZfic)
TunaCrotchStreetwalker?
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 07:08 PM (GULKT)
Hey cranky pants how are you?
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:09 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: Truck Monkey at April 12, 2012 03:09 PM (jucos)
Call your own police department and ask them.
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 03:09 PM (niW49)
I'm not giving you my twitter handle. I was an early adopter, it's my name<<<
Of course it is.
Unlike you, I have no interest in outing anyone. I just want to see the Tweets. Email it to me and i promise i won't share with anyone. Even if it turns out you're not telling the truth.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 12, 2012 03:10 PM (JDIKC)
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at April 12, 2012 07:05 PM (Ec6wH)
Of course. This is a Murder indictment. Everything is open.
Besides, the fucker's dead and Zimmerman's main defense is that Trayvon was a punk.
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 03:10 PM (Bughn)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 07:09 PM (CMM9V)
twitter has been around a lot longer than you all think. Do a little research.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:10 PM (oZfic)
Why do you completely change your name every day?
That's something that only trolls do.
Posted by: Mætenloch at April 12, 2012 03:10 PM (/3HNy)
Posted by: SantaRosaStan at April 12, 2012 03:11 PM (Dll6b)
Zimmerman wasn't out on watch. He was just out.
Posted by: knowin thangs at April 12, 2012 03:12 PM (cePv8)
Posted by: Curiously stupid at April 12, 2012 03:12 PM (HzhBE)
Why do you completely change your name every day?
That's something that only trolls do.
Posted by: Mætenloch at April 12, 2012 07:10 PM (/3HNy)
You guys do it all day, several names, so why do you object that I started doing it?
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:12 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 03:12 PM (Bughn)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 03:12 PM (8y9MW)
Posted by: THE FIX IS IN at April 12, 2012 03:12 PM (m3R4Y)
You're being obtuse. I didn't say you can't. But every neighborhood watch in America will tell you don't.
By the Power of NeighborhoodWatchSkull!
Posted by: Prince Adam at April 12, 2012 03:13 PM (akP5G)
Self-Defense is applicable anywhere- someone attacks me, I get to kill them.
-------
Slightly more nuanced than that. General "unlawful force" (the term used in the Florida statute) only allows me to use force in defending myself, but not deadly force.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 03:13 PM (3lAjR)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 03:13 PM (BB0/w)
Posted by: Truck Monkey at April 12, 2012 03:13 PM (jucos)
Posted by: Jazz at April 12, 2012 03:14 PM (NzrVU)
If I were the defense attorney I'd love to put Chad Martin on the stand.
I'd love some clarification on the timeline of the events that evening. In addition, it's odd that Chad didn't seem to mind that Trayvon disappeared with his Skittles, or seem overly concerned about the sirens in the neighborhood, or even bother to inform his father that Trayvon hadn't return home that evening.
Posted by: Ernie McCracken - NO LIMIT MORON at April 12, 2012 03:14 PM (ZETiK)
You keep making this completely false assertion. Do you really not understand the difference between a sock for humor, versus your deranged psycho name-changing? Are you really that fucking stupid?
Posted by: Waterhouse at April 12, 2012 03:14 PM (jougt)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 03:14 PM (BB0/w)
Posted by: THE FIX IS IN at April 12, 2012 03:15 PM (m3R4Y)
Posted by: Truck Monkey at April 12, 2012 07:13 PM (jucos)
ok I'm going to try to be funny. I'm really going to try. But so often I end up laughing at something you guys said and then answer seriously. But I'll try, I'm very funny in real life, my friends always tell me I have a great sense of humor, just don't know why it doesn't translate here.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:15 PM (oZfic)
did you know that if you carve a penis out of a large potato and let it sit on the window sill for 24 hours, it will have the exact amount of "give" as a real penis?
Posted by: Curiously stupid at April 12, 2012 03:15 PM (HzhBE)
Posted by: Waterhouse at April 12, 2012 07:14 PM (jougt)
Ooooo...ooooh.....I know, I know! Call on me!!!!
Posted by: Tami at April 12, 2012 03:16 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:07 PM (oZfic)
Why do you completely change your name every day?
That's something that only trolls do.
Posted by: Mætenloch at April 12, 2012 07:10 PM (/3HNy)
You guys do it all day, several names, so why do you object that I started doing it?
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:12 PM (oZfic)
that you think you are doing the same thing others here do with their names just continues to demonstrate that you are the dumbest person on the planet you anti-semitic bigotted psychotic stalker.
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 03:16 PM (GULKT)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:16 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: LASue at April 12, 2012 03:17 PM (I1icO)
Posted by: TexasJew at April 12, 2012 03:17 PM (Bughn)
The Black Vote was, what, 97+% for Obama? Hard to do much better than that. Now, about the Hispanic vote, lot's of room for heavy defections since this is a race war that's being incited.
Huge mistake is right. Summon the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 12, 2012 03:17 PM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 07:16 PM (GULKT)
Not an anti semite. Not bigotted. Not a psychotic stalker. I'll grant you sometimes stupid. But most times very smart.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:17 PM (oZfic)
Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at April 12, 2012 03:18 PM (pVvkk)
Excuse me, but didn't they say we were going to shoot down that North Korean rocket?
You can't shoot a rocket out of mid-air!? That's Science Fiction.
Posted by: Democrats at April 12, 2012 03:18 PM (akP5G)
Well, she did vote for me. Will that give you a clue?
Posted by: Hair Plugs Joe at April 12, 2012 07:19 PM (hXJOG)
I did not vote for you, voted for Sarah Palin!
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:20 PM (oZfic)
Not an anti semite. Not bigotted. Not a psychotic stalker. I'll grant you sometimes stupid. But most times very smart.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:17 PM (oZfic)
Ron Paul loving - anti-semitic
Mormon bashing - bigotted
Any of your retarded ramblings - psychotic
Watching a moron meetup from across the bar - stalker.
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 03:20 PM (GULKT)
Posted by: MoeMoe at April 12, 2012 03:20 PM (cey9b)
Q - So Trayvon told you he was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn't know why."
A - Yeh
Q - Trayvon lives in North Miami. Have you ever gotten a call from him before when he was walking on the street by himself?
A - I don't remember if he did
Q - Did he ever call you while on the street in North Miami, Miami Gardens, or Miami proper when he said he was afraid at anytime?
A - No
Q - Even in an town known to be dangerous?
A - No, never said he was scared
Q - But he was scared this time, because ONE man who was 5-9 and 170 pounds was following him?
A - That's what he said
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 03:20 PM (Y+DPZ)
If Zimmerman is acquitted on the basis of self-defense under Florida law his liability shield is absolute.
Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at April 12, 2012 03:20 PM (DMZru)
Posted by: Curiously stupid at April 12, 2012 03:21 PM (HzhBE)
My God, it's full of delusion!
Posted by: Dave Bowman at April 12, 2012 03:21 PM (jougt)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:12 PM (oZfic)
Most people have a stable identity with occasional sockpuppeting. Whereas you change your name everyday and then use it consistently during the day.
Again something you only really see in trolls.
Posted by: Mætenloch at April 12, 2012 03:21 PM (/3HNy)
Got a cite?
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 03:21 PM (QKKT0)
Two small town families had a running feud for whatever the reason. One evening a guy from one family is drinking at the same VFW as two brothers from other family.
Words were exchanged, with one of the brothers saying something to the effect of "We have our guns, this ends tonight".
The other guy walked out to his truck, tucked his gun in his pants, and walked back in. He sat down and continued to drink his beer. The two brothers stood up and drew their guns, firing one shot that missed. The other guy shot them both, one injured and one dead while escaping injury himself.
Verdict: Guilty. He not only had a chance to retreat (he walked out to his truck), but furthermore was considered a willing participant because he came back inside with his gun after being threatened. That the brothers drew and fired first didn't matter.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 03:21 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Larsen E. Whipsnade at April 12, 2012 07:20 PM (DMZru)
I saw a news blurb the other day that they likely wouldn't seek a wrongful death suit against Zimmerman. They would probably go after the deeper pockets of the Homeowners Association.
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 03:22 PM (GULKT)
Posted by: Mætenloch at April 12, 2012 07:21 PM (/3HNy)
well thank you for the advice, I appreciate it, I'll stick with this name then.
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 03:22 PM (oZfic)
Oh, and Rev Al will try to serve up a riot.
Posted by: JEM at April 12, 2012 03:23 PM (o+SC1)
Verdict: Guilty. He not only had a chance to retreat (he walked out to his truck), but furthermore was considered a willing participant because he came back inside with his gun after being threatened. That the brothers drew and fired first didn't matter.
-------
What was the charge?
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 03:23 PM (3lAjR)
Apologies for repeating myself ;-)
Florida's hearsay exceptions:
http://tinyurl.com/FLhrsy
I suspect good arguments can be made for the "excited utterance," or "spontaneous statement," or "then-existing mental, emotional, or physical condition" exceptions, subject to establishing that Martin, indeed, made the call to his g/f, ,which I do not believe should be difficult.
Posted by: Jazz at April 12, 2012 03:24 PM (NzrVU)
Hypothetically true, but the media circus yesterday indicates to me more that this was for Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey's benefit.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 12, 2012 03:26 PM (eHIJJ)
Seriously, i am funny. Here is a joke. "Knock knock." And you say, "Who is there?" And then I say, "Mormon." And then you say, "Mormon who?" And then I say, "Mormon. More ... knock knock jokes ... 'mon." And I say it like I'm a Jamaican! Isn't that great! My cat LOVES that one! sometimes i even put on some Bob Marley afterward and dance with her!
Posted by: Curiously stupid at April 12, 2012 03:27 PM (HzhBE)
Zimmerman's defense is self-defense. Anything and everything about Trayvon that lends support to a Trayvon who is capable of attacking Zimmerman will come out.
Including things like autopsy blood tests for drugs, twitter posts, etc.
Posted by: farsighted at April 12, 2012 03:27 PM (DmWV5)
Posted by: Waterhouse at April 12, 2012 03:27 PM (jougt)
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 07:22 PM (GULKT)
--------------------------------------------
What? They don't want to go after the Zimmerman family riches? From what I hear of the "gated community" where this all went down, good luck with that too.
Posted by: Soona at April 12, 2012 03:28 PM (Jdmxh)
Posted by: Curiously stupid at April 12, 2012 03:28 PM (HzhBE)
Martin is being followed and supposedly he's scared.
Why does he stay on the phone with his girlfriend 250 miles away? Why doesn't he call 9-1-1? It's the emergency number in every town in America?
Why doesn't he at least call his brother for backup, if he's waiting at the condo for his Skittles?
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 03:29 PM (Y+DPZ)
Don't recall if it was murder or manslaughter. I want to say murder 2, but I'm not sure. He did get a lengthy prison sentence.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 03:29 PM (SY2Kh)
Did TM have injuries?
And more important, why hasn't the autopsy results come out? Was TM on drugs? It would also have Tattoo count and description, which may not be favorable to the "lil skittles eatin kid" the LSM so desperately want us to see?
Posted by: JarvisW at April 12, 2012 03:29 PM (8yPsP)
Posted by: The Gerbil at April 12, 2012 03:29 PM (sJKFk)
Don't recall if it was murder or manslaughter. I want to say murder 2, but I'm not sure. He did get a lengthy prison sentence.
-------
See that set of facts seem more in line with the Stand Your Ground law. Had the guy been in a stand your ground state, I'm guessing he gets acquitted.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 03:31 PM (3lAjR)
Posted by: I am the egg man, . . . at April 12, 2012 03:31 PM (ndp2I)
Insurance.
Posted by: Cicero at April 12, 2012 03:34 PM (QKKT0)
Posted by: cassie at April 12, 2012 07:22 PM (oZfic)
---Works for me!
Posted by: painful stool at April 12, 2012 03:35 PM (6LvlL)
At least you gotta tail to get you out of such a dark spot with a simple YANK...Zimmerman is screwed.
Posted by: MoeMoe at April 12, 2012 03:35 PM (cey9b)
Just got home and read the travesty Corey filed as her Probable Cause.
Holy carp, Batman. If that was what she used as her reasoning, I can see why she pawned the case off on one of her underlings and ran off surrounded by her steroid-laden praetorian guard. Also, why the poor underling got testy with the press that was there. The state has no case.
Zimmerman walks. As he should.
Posted by: AZ Hi Desert at April 12, 2012 03:35 PM (ial2b)
Posted by: Paul Morphy at April 12, 2012 03:36 PM (BB0/w)
So, no, a weapon is not required.... The Penis is the greatest weapon ever created!
Posted by: Catherine MacKinnon at April 12, 2012 03:37 PM (1o4B5)
Posted by: MoeMoe at April 12, 2012 03:37 PM (cey9b)
Maybe, but the fact that he returned with a gun knowing that there was a high probability of a fight made him a willing participant in the eyes of the jury. Not sure the SYG law would've protected him; I don't remember the specific provision that exempts those who initiate confrontation from being protected.
Also, nobody really "wins" a case like that, even if totally acquitted. Jail time, bail bond fees, potentially shelling out tens of thousands for a lawyer, notoriety, etc.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 12, 2012 03:37 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: MoeMoe at April 12, 2012 03:41 PM (cey9b)
Posted by: Fritz at April 12, 2012 03:43 PM (KWdVT)
Posted by: cowboyup at April 12, 2012 03:43 PM (F9eng)
Posted by: Soona at April 12, 2012 03:44 PM (Jdmxh)
Posted by: MoeMoe at April 12, 2012 03:47 PM (cey9b)
The Penis is the greatest weapon ever <strike>created </strike> erected!
FIFY
Posted by: Lokki at April 12, 2012 03:48 PM (a5F9g)
Posted by: Buffalobob at April 12, 2012 03:49 PM (qiFDD)
Z acknowledges suggestion and continues on cut-through to obtain most current dwelling number for police.
Z loses sight of M.
Z acquires address and turns, walks directly back to SUV.
He needs to leave the car for what reason again? Sounds like bs.
M appears at cut-through sidewalk intersection to confront Z.
Sounds likely, after trying to get away from Z, M attacks a much larger man.
Confrontation escalates.
M strikes Z, Z falls back on grass/cement.
I've done quite a bit of MMA and I don't see how M could have knocked Z over. That kind of difference in weight is extremely hard to overcome.
M continues assault - bashes Z's head to grass/cement.
Z screams for help.
Forensic analysis of the tape identifies that it's M's voice doing the screaming. It certainly does sound like a teenager to me.
Help not forthcoming, Z fires gun once in self-defense.
Posted by: kevinw at April 12, 2012 03:51 PM (afIq/)
Posted by: dripping venom at April 12, 2012 03:51 PM (zZJJp)
Posted by: dripping venom at April 12, 2012 03:55 PM (zZJJp)
Posted by: steevy at April 12, 2012 04:02 PM (7W3wI)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 12, 2012 04:03 PM (Af3Wg)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 12, 2012 04:03 PM (Af3Wg)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 12, 2012 04:03 PM (Af3Wg)
Confrontation escalates.M strikes Z, Z falls back on grass/cement.
I've done quite a bit of MMA and I don't see how M could have knocked Z over. That kind of difference in weight is extremely hard to overcome.
M continues assault - bashes Z's head to grass/cement.Z screams for help.
Forensic analysis of the tape identifies that it's M's voice doing the screaming. It certainly does sound like a teenager to me.
Help not forthcoming, Z fires gun once in self-defense.
Posted by: kevinw at April 12, 2012 07:51 PM
10 to 20 lbs weight difference and a 5 to 7 inch height advantage is hard to overcome? It wasn't GZ's 7 year old picture fighting TM's 5 year old picture. You must have never seen many bar fights in your lifetime.
If you've done a lot of MMA analysis, then don't quit your day job. I'm sure you impress friends on Facebook, but AoSHQ is a tougher crowd that includes detectives, lawyers, doctors, and people who are very skeptical of the media
What forensic analysis? So far the only "forensic analysis" is TM's father telling investigators it wasn't his son's voice, then saying it was after a meeting with Sharpton
Posted by: kbdabear at April 12, 2012 04:04 PM (Y+DPZ)
Posted by: Socratease at April 12, 2012 04:04 PM (vaIln)
>281 Where the the kid shot -- front or back?
I'm pretty sure that did come out- front.<
Yes, that appears to be right.
According to this article he was shot once in the chest at close range: http://tinyurl.com/6soceca
Posted by: John at April 12, 2012 04:05 PM (k5Bku)
Posted by: irongrampa at April 12, 2012 04:07 PM (SAMxH)
Posted by: someguy at April 12, 2012 04:10 PM (sEXZ/)
Wasn't Martin's legal residence in Miami - he was not 'living' in the subdivision - at best a house-guest of his dad's GF (assuming she lived there),and dad said Martin was with a cousin that night.... therefore Martin was engaged in a little criminal trespass.
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 04:13 PM (7MFxV)
I've done quite a bit of MMA and I don't see how M could have knocked Z over. That kind of difference in weight is extremely hard to overcome.
M continues assault - bashes Z's head to grass/cement.Z screams for help.
Forensic analysis of the tape identifies that it's M's voice doing the screaming. It certainly does sound like a teenager to me.
Help not forthcoming, Z fires gun once in self-defense.
Posted by: kevinw at April 12, 2012 07:51 PM (afIq/)
Kevin, Zimmerman is 5'9" 170 lbs. Martin 6'2" 160lbs. Where are you getting your info?
Posted by: Hedgehog at April 12, 2012 04:14 PM (3jGS1)
Posted by: Jypsea Rose~AoSHQ Graveyard Shift at April 12, 2012 04:16 PM (iKSAz)
Posted by: Hedgehog at April 12, 2012 08:14 PM (3jGS1)
He thinks the photos the MFM are using are obviously accurate depictions of how they looked when they got into it.
Posted by: buzzion at April 12, 2012 04:22 PM (GULKT)
To pinpoint an address. Z tracked then briefly seized the tracking to gather info. The unit number was on the side of the building, not on the rear. The cut-through sidewalk went right by the terminal building. The "common area" sidewalk intersected at a T in the rear with the cut-through sidewalk. It was a reasonable sequence.
kevinw: "Sounds likely, after trying to get away from Z, M attacks a much larger man."
M is not a much larger man. M had slight weight advantage, Z had slight height advantage.
kevinw: "I've done quite a bit of MMA and I don't see how M could have knocked Z over. That kind of difference in weight is extremely hard to overcome."
To reiterate, that significant weight advantage didn't exist. Plus, a sucker punch can unbalance you plenty easily. If you suspect that they were both setting up to have a fist-fight, you don't really get sucker-punched. If you're caught surprised while looking just to return to your vehicle, you're probably not quite primed to wrestle/box. Given the backstory of M's attitude, I gather he was pretty amped up for a confrontation. He was getting dissed by the man. Epinephrine rush edge goes to M, possibly, which is obviously speculation. The physical attributes, however, were still not incomparable.
kevinw: "Forensic analysis of the tape identifies that it's M's voice doing the screaming. It certainly does sound like a teenager to me."
To the former, no, it doesn't... or hasn't yet. I think even a member of M's family initially stated the screams didn't sound like those of the son. I've never heard either of them scream in panic, so I have no idea what a primal scream from either would be. I don't think you could even simulate Z's pattern, for example, without beating him unconscious to the point of desperation and fear of death again. It's a non-replicable test to the extent one would stand in court.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 12, 2012 04:26 PM (eHIJJ)
Man, 160 pounds seems skinny as hell for a 6'3 guy.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 04:27 PM (3lAjR)
Posted by: d_fitz at April 12, 2012 04:28 PM (+O9FO)
Posted by: S-Cargo at April 12, 2012 06:25 PM (xP8Aq)
---------------------->
Incorrect, you don't know what you're talking about. Use of a firearm is justified against an unarmed assailant IF you fear they are going inflict serious physical harm -- like beating your head into the pavement as Zimmerman alleges.
>
>I have serious reservations about the merits of the case as I've heard presented and I've been involved in the investigation of multiple homicides. Admittedly, I'm not privy to all the information that the local authorities have but a pretty good clue that the case against Zimmerman is weak as f*ck is that the Sanford prosecutor declined to prosecute Zimmerman and the state's special prosecutor skipped a grand jury.
>
>The entire key to the prosecution is going to hinge on establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started a physical confrontation, and then, loosing the fight, shot Martin.
Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at April 12, 2012 04:29 PM (M0NzJ)
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 08:27 PM (3lAjR)
When I was a Sophmore in HS I was 6'2" and weighed 165 lbs. Almost the same size as Martin. When I weighed in for freshman football camp in college I was 6'4" 220.
Posted by: Hedgehog at April 12, 2012 04:29 PM (3jGS1)
Dershowitz article in sidebar: "'if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.'"
Thanks, rdbrewer.
Posted by: wheatie at April 12, 2012 04:32 PM (+5U+B)
"Relevant, isn't it?"
There's only one relevant fact - Zimmerman's one count of cracka-ass crackadom. The prosecutor need only play Minor Threat's "Guilty of Being [Kinda] White".
Posted by: Mob Justice at April 12, 2012 04:32 PM (FsqHK)
Posted by: Rob in Katy at April 12, 2012 04:40 PM (PiTBB)
Posted by: ScarHAL at April 12, 2012 04:40 PM (Z/VaX)
You got a lot of 'facts' wrong. Martin was about 6'3" and 170-ish pounds and an athlete. Zimmerman was not the 200+ pound guy he was 7 years ago but had slimmed down to about 170 as well, and was only 5'9".
Posted by: Holger at April 12, 2012 04:47 PM (zaVyn)
160 for 6'2" is very very thin. The guy should have been going for burgers not skittles. Why no appetite I wonder?
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 04:49 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: dagny at April 12, 2012 04:51 PM (CMM9V)
Posted by: toby928© at April 12, 2012 05:00 PM (GTbGH)
This prosecutor seems to assume that lynching the "white" man will be politically popular. Boy does she have another thing coming. Enjoy boogying down with Al Sharpton and Mike Tyson Ms. Corey. You have chosen your side.
Posted by: Alec Rawls at April 12, 2012 05:05 PM (kTTUz)
Posted by: Jean at April 12, 2012 05:05 PM (TjgR9)
AZ Hi;
Last night you posted that Trayvon had tweeted something about Zimmerman in January. Do you have a source for that?
Posted by: Jerome at April 12, 2012 05:10 PM (eQa5p)
Posted by: Jean at April 12, 2012 05:17 PM (t5Klv)
No one believes a word you say.
Posted by: mama winger at April 12, 2012 05:34 PM (P6QsQ)
La Florida es muy importante este Novembre, no?
Posted by: Great Reagan's Ghost at April 12, 2012 05:42 PM (v6QH3)
If someone were beating my head against the sidewalk I would assume they were trying to kill me----there is no other assumption and if I could I would shoot. Seems very clear. Doesn't matter what happened before.
---------
It does matter what happened before. The prosecution's whole case will be about what happened before.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 05:53 PM (3lAjR)
Posted by: Doug in Cali at April 12, 2012 05:53 PM (1y0LF)
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 05:53 PM (7MFxV)
I'm late to the party and haven't all the comments, so sorry if I reiterate something already said. But the girlfriend's statements about what Trayvon was telling her, while hearsay, will be admitted under the "present sense impression" exception.
You cannot testify to what someone told you about something that already happened. That's classic hearsay. But you can testify about what someone told you about what was happening right at that moment.
This rule is codified in the Federal Rules of Evidence at 803(1). I'm certain Florida law has a similar exception. It would not qualify as a dying declaration unless Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun and was going to shoot. But the prosecutor should be able to get it in nonetheless.
============
You didn't get the memo. You're not allowed to describe the law around here that might be beneficial to prosecution's case. It makes you ignorant.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 06:09 PM (3lAjR)
Posted by: S-Cargo at April 12, 2012 06:25 PM (xP8Aq)
Disparity of force is absolutely relevant in self defense shootings, as long as you can articulate that you were in fear for your life. A "fistfight" is an entirely different scenario than an assault with fists.
Posted by: elliot at April 12, 2012 06:12 PM (vY/HY)
Posted by: Jim in Texas at April 12, 2012 06:20 PM (XDNJV)
"You didn't get the memo. You're not allowed to describe the law around here that might be beneficial to prosecution's case. It makes you ignorant."
Rich,
Don't get hissy.
What's your take on the idea (actually, the assertion in the charging document) that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin? Or, for that matter, about the general tone of rank half-assitude about the charging document. Is this just something they tossed together because they had a deadline to meet? If this is actually a statement of what they intend to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, they had better hope that the jury is very easily swayed.
Posted by: Jerome at April 12, 2012 06:24 PM (eQa5p)
The affidavit also claims the dispatcher told Zimmerman an officer was on the way and to wait.
There's nothing in the 911 call to suggest the dispatcher ever instructed Zimmerman to wait for officers.
Isn't that a bit of perjury?
--------
Eh, you're allowed a little leeway to frame the argument. The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" after Zimmerman had told them he was going to follow. Not a huge stretch to say that they were asking him to wait.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 06:25 PM (3lAjR)
451, I'm guessing you've got it. They tossed it together because they felt compelled to do so. Dershowitz is right in that the affidavit is pretty damn weak.
I mean, they can argue Zimmerman saying "fucking punks" goes towards profiling. It's a hard argument. It's a stretch. But I'm guessing they do it.
Posted by: Rich at April 12, 2012 06:27 PM (3lAjR)
Posted by: Doug in Cali at April 12, 2012 06:31 PM (1y0LF)
Posted by: AZ_Hi_Desert at April 12, 2012 06:40 PM (BQfRt)
Posted by: Doug in Cali at April 12, 2012 06:41 PM (1y0LF)
What, "profiling" is a new no-no? I'm not getting this profiling accusation. It sounds like something a not-very-bright person would say. "He profiled me!" I gather the idea is that Zimmerman somehow failed to respect the pieties in his assessment of Martin. Like, Zimmerman thought-crimed Martin, by supposing he might be up to no good, because Martin is a member of a protected class.
"Fucking punks" are now a protected class?
Wish I'd known that when I was one.
Posted by: Jerome at April 12, 2012 06:42 PM (eQa5p)
Posted by: Dumb Bettor at April 12, 2012 06:47 PM (svwGR)
I would be inclined to fry the prosecutors for malicious prosecution .. let me restate that - based upon what has been released to the general public, the prosecution is creatively interpreting events and recorded statements in a manner which changes the plain meaning of what in reality occurred, all in an effort to frame Zimmerman.
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 07:03 PM (7MFxV)
Kermit @459
The question is whether this document is relevant. It reads like a dog-ate-my-homework attempt to meet a deadline. There are timelines posted on the web that contradict key assertions in this document. It's like whoever wrote it didn't know anything he hadn't seen on (MSM) TV.
Posted by: Jerome at April 12, 2012 07:07 PM (eQa5p)
If it had been me?
Bill drill, baby. Bill drill.
Posted by: wyatt at April 12, 2012 07:07 PM (y0VOX)
Martin was on private property after dark - trespassing/prowling - even if he was honestly trying to get out of the rain, it is still a petty criminal offense (sign on the gate says "no Trespassing" - therefore, criminal trespass).
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 07:08 PM (7MFxV)
If it had been me?
Bill drill, baby. Bill drill.
Posted by: wyatt
Crappy gun or jammed up between two bodies (just as was likely with M on Z as witness described) and failure to cycle completely.
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 07:10 PM (7MFxV)
Jerome at April 12, 2012 11:07 PM (eQa5p)
AGREE on your points, but it would seem that this doc is kinda sorta critical - it is required to kick off the whole prosecution. Whether it is legally regarded as the foundation document that it is in reality or not legally irrelevant after its initial filing.. I don't know.
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 12, 2012 07:14 PM (7MFxV)
Posted by: Sphynx at April 12, 2012 07:20 PM (M0c4a)
Posted by: Doug in Cali at April 12, 2012 07:40 PM (1y0LF)
Obviously, there's something that needs hiding.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 12, 2012 08:13 PM (vxj6x)
Posted by: taobao agent at April 13, 2012 12:20 AM (xA9XB)
Posted by: Andrew Sullivan at April 13, 2012 05:20 AM (TLSOV)
Posted by: DavidD at April 13, 2012 06:01 AM (Snn4W)
Posted by: S-Cargo at April 13, 2012 08:23 AM (sftcY)
Florida forcible felonies are:
776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
Would sitting on somebodies chest and bouncing their head of a concrete sidewalk constitute of "forcible felony"?
Posted by: Kermit T. Frog at April 13, 2012 02:19 PM (7MFxV)
This is false. Anyone who listens to the call between Zimmerman and the dispatcher, can tell that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle *before* being asked if he was following the "suspecious person". You can hear in his breathing and voice that he is at least walking briskly, and you can hear wind noise to tell that he's outdoors.
Then when he was asked if he was following, he said he was, and was told "We don't need to you do that". Zimmerman replied, "OK" and his breathing begins to slow. Then ensues a dialog about where the police are to meet Zimmerman. By the end of that his breathing is back to what it had been when he was still in his vehicle, but you can still hear occasional wind noise, indicating he's still outside.
So, the dispatcher never actually told him to stop, he adivised "we don't need you to do that" and it appears that Zimmerman stopped trying to follow at that point. He had already lost sight of Martin by then.
What is the penalty for lying in such a charge document?
Posted by: El Gato Gordo at April 15, 2012 11:15 AM (MvWJi)
Posted by: Bob at April 16, 2012 12:09 PM (UOM48)
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Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at April 12, 2012 02:07 PM (8y9MW)