Ace of Spades HQ

June 25, 2012

Game of Thrones Mystery Solution
— Ace

I just got done reading Game of Thrones (the full series, or at least the five books printed so far).

I was complaining to a friend about them -- "one thousand pages of pure repetitive tedium, just to set up a rip-roaring final eight hundred pages!" -- and he asked me who I thought Jon Snow's mother was.

Well, the thing is, I didn't bother to care, because all I was reading for was Vengeance Against the Lannisters.

But it struck me that that was a good question (duh), and I have read previously that the author stated the end of the series all swung on the events of 16 years past, the rebellion, Lyanna, and so forth.

So, I looked up "jon snow mother speculation" and found the answer. It's a great answer, actually, so good that there's no way it could possibly be wrong. I'm adding a little bit of my own speculation, which I think is also likely true.

I'm putting this in White Font (scroll over to read) because, well, spoilers.

GEEK ALERT for everyone. There's no sense reading this unless you've read this books, and if you've read the books, don't read it unless you don't care about spoilers. First of all, I didn't think of the main solution: that's right here.

First theory. Explains everything. Why does the author keep noting that Jon Snow has a "Stark look"? To make sure we don't question whether Ned is his father.

But ah... he could have a Stark look from his mother, Lyanna. Making him the bastard son of Rhaegon and Lyanna, and hence an heir to the Targaryen throne.

Now, the books were always very vague about how exactly Rheagon "stole" Lyanna away. What if he didn't steal her? What if she just loved him? And then, at the end of Robert's Rebellion, she gives birth. The heir is spirited away to the Tower of Joy, where three kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne, protect him (and Lyanna).

The books keep referring to that fight -- and never say what the fight was about.

The books keep referring to a promise Lyanna made Eddard vow to keep -- but never say what that promise was.

The promise was simply to make sure her son, by Rhaegon, was hidden away, and unharmed.

This explains why Ned had a very out-of-character affair. He didn't. It explains why he won't talk about Jon Snow's mother.

Lyanna died in a "bed of blood." Was she stabbed? They never say. Maybe she had just given difficult birth. Because who there would kill her? Her kingsguard was there to protect her; Ned and his allies wanted her alive.

The books also established that Ned would do anything to protect the children of his enemies from harm (he warns Cersie to get out of King's Landing, with her children, even though that warning exposes himself and his family to great risk).

Oh, and why are the Reed children suddenly so important in the story? Why is Howland Reed such a good friend to Ned Stark, so devoted to him? Because only Howland Reed knows Ned's secret. Only Ned and Howland survived the fight with the Kingsguard, and only Howland knows the promise Lyanna made Ned swear.

Now, at first, I didn't love this, because the books already had a swapped-baby-type story: Aegon Targaryen. Aegon Targaryen is supposedly Raeghon's and Ellia's son, rescued by Varys, by swapping him for a commoner's child.

It doesn't seem to me that a book can have two Targaryen changelings in it. One Targaryen changeling too many. It's silly.

So Ageon must be a fake, a pretender.

I think this makes sense. Varys' story about him is a lie. Varys previously worked to keep the Lannisters on the throne-- he told Ned to give up his story about incest and false kings, not because he loves the Lannisters, but simply to keep the peace.

If Varys had always known of this child and always wanted to put him on the throne (which he at least implies he did), then he would told Ned to keep on pushing the "incest, false king" line. Which isn't what he did.

The whole story sounds like a recent idea, not one that's been in Varys' mind for 16 years.

Now, if Varys is lying, why lie? Kevan Lannister was about to die, and Maester Pycelle was already dead; why tell a lie to two dead men?

Well, those weren't the only people in the room. His spies/accomplices-- a gaggle of children -- were all present. He was telling them the lie, too. Likely, he wants it to spread. Aegon is coming; why not put out the word?

So where did they get this pretender from?

From books one and two. A boy was featured there, apparently for no reason, and then entirely disappeared from the series. That boy is Edric Dayne, nephew of the legendary Arthur Dayne. He has the Targaryen coloring (silver hair, purple eyes) just like this "Aegon." He was last seen riding with the Lightning Lord, but then split off from him for reasons that haven't been made clear yet. I think Arya ran into him.

I propose someone found him, discovered his Targaryen looks, and hatched a plan to put a pretender on the throne.

Some of what Varys says about "Aegon" applies to Edric-- as Edric was riding as an outlaw, looking out for the common man (and children!) who suffer in war, he would, as Varys says of "Aegon," know what it means to struggle. While it's not true that he was always raised to be a prince, he is the son of a legendary (and honorable) knight, and squire to a Lord who seems concerned with the travails of the common man. The sort of person Varys might decide would make for a good king.

If Edric isn't Aegon, then why was he even in the books? I guess you could say that of 4000 other minor characters, but I think this is the solution here: Aegon is a pretender, to throw us off the scent of the real Lost Targaryen, Jon "Snow." (I don't know what his correct bastard name should be.)

I might be straining here, but the books keep mentioning the three-headed dragon. Maybe that's Aegon, Dany, and Jon. Three heads of the dragon Rheagon (though one is a false head).

Obviously this requires Jon Snow to survive his current difficulties, but I think that'll prove to be the case.

This then means the actual final conflict is not between Stark and Lannister (both houses already decimated), but between two Targaryen's, Jon Snow, bastard son of Rheagan, and Danyres, sister of Rheagan.

Which makes for a less than ideal war -- hero vs. heroine-- but then, the books seem to want to avoid the Good Guy vs. Bad Guy notion of war.

One More Thing: It was promised that if you stiff the Iron Bank of Braavos, suddenly you'll have pretenders vying for your crown.

Pretty sure Varys is from Braavos, or spent time there.

Well, the Lannisters stiffed the bank, and suddenly there's someone claiming to be Aegon Targaryen, fronted for by Varys. Who needs a patron, given that he had to flee his last one.

I think that's pretty strong evidence. Why would Martin drop this Promise To The Reader -- stiffing the bank = pretender -- and not follow through?

Posted by: Ace at 05:37 PM | Comments (176)
Post contains 1249 words, total size 7 kb.

Honestly,

all of the main protagoniste are pretty horrible people. The only truely admirable person is Tyrion Lannister. And even he is pathetically flawed.

Posted by: Jack at June 25, 2012 06:14 PM (wUFaM)

2 It's a movie review about Ovaltine!

Posted by: fluffy Parker at June 25, 2012 06:15 PM (z9HTb)

I'm still getting that site meter notification.

I don't like that.

Posted by: Jack at June 25, 2012 06:17 PM (wUFaM)

4 I unfollowed Pajiba today after a bullshit and vile post about the right-wingers seizing GoT to further our cause.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at June 25, 2012 06:18 PM (piMMO)

5 Well, Ace, who are you that I must bow so low?

Posted by: andycanuck at June 25, 2012 06:18 PM (nrW1y)

6 Wait, wait! So, which one's the SCoaMF?

Posted by: cthulhu at June 25, 2012 06:18 PM (kaalw)

Now I was thinking that Jon Snow was Robert's bastard instead of Eddard's - none of the theories at the link matched mine.

Oh, well - I TRIED to slog through the 5th book, but could only get about halfway through it before I said "enough". I've read all of Vince Flynn's and Brad Thor's books since then, and I just can't get worked up enough to try to finish GOT#5.....

Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at June 25, 2012 06:18 PM (0xqzf)

8 I tried to get into Game of Thrones. I read the first two books. But after the Wheel of Time mega epic, I can't get involved into anymore fantasy series where the author needs to come down with a terminal illness in order to finish the series.

Posted by: Dave C at June 25, 2012 06:18 PM (pLnp0)

9 Oh, fuck no!

I will read this in spite of not giving a rat's ass about "Game of Thrones."

Don't tell me what to do!

Okay, actually, I didn't read it, because I really don't care.

What's "Game of Thrones?"

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at June 25, 2012 06:19 PM (nEUpB)

10 Lots of boobehs in the tv version. But not for Jon Snow!

Posted by: beancounter at June 25, 2012 06:20 PM (p18em)

11 Actually, I haven't seen any of the TV series but a friend liked it alot (and medieval stuff doesn't usually appeal to him) so I intend looking for it one of these days.

Posted by: andycanuck at June 25, 2012 06:20 PM (nrW1y)

12 Don't know because I am only on book 3, but so far the only characters I ever had any sympathy for are Tyrion and Khal Drogo, because they never pretend to be all noble. Unfortunately Martin had to kill off Drogo, for whatever reason. Seems he like to kill off the likable characters

Posted by: Ma Bell at June 25, 2012 06:23 PM (uVuwp)

13 Hard to buy the secret Targayen whelp approach. Stark's wife clearly didn't like Snow and I don't think Martin is clever enough to use that ploy. The only way that works is if ole Eddard thought he sired the bastard and was duped, providing the requisite wifey intuition cover. Martin doesn't have the stones to go that far in, imo. He's too shallow a plotster.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 06:23 PM (a4CUi)

14 >>>Oh, well - I TRIED to slog through the 5th book, but could only get about halfway through it before I said "enough". ooh, you were so close to finishing. How could you not just finish?! I powered through them the last two weeks. POWERED.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 06:24 PM (aw5Tx)

15 >>>Hard to buy the secret... gotta disagree. When there's a mystery, and an author keeps referring to the same apparently irrelevant information over and over again, you can be damn sure it's not irrelevant. It's the clues to the solution of the mystery. That first theory is right. And you assume ned told the secret. I don't. He made a promise and he kept it. from everyone.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 06:25 PM (aw5Tx)

16 >>>>>I powered through them the last two weeks. POWERED That bad then?

Posted by: Dave C at June 25, 2012 06:27 PM (pLnp0)

17 gotta disagree. Fair enough. We'll find out if George ever finishes the damn books.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 06:27 PM (a4CUi)

18 Yeah the last two were a chore to read. Let's hope for the last two being more inspired. But yeah, this *spoiler* makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't the two dragons simply get married? Wouldn't be the first inter-targaryan marriage.

Posted by: HoboJerky, profit of DOOM! at June 25, 2012 06:29 PM (ePYQF)

19 >>>That bad then? they're good. the trouble is, there is 600 pages of good stuff JAM-PACKED into 1500 pages of text. Per volume. For long patches, starting in book 3, I was just in skim mode.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 06:29 PM (aw5Tx)

I've slogged through the first 3 books...been a hard go, so I dropped it for a while...might finish it eventually.

It's kinda well done but depressing, he kills off everyone you care about.

I've seen all the shows...they're well done. I liked the attack ads at motherjones.com..."Daenerys Targaryen, Wrong for Dragons, Wrong for the Realm!"

Interesting theory about John Snow, ace...hadn't considered that....the 3rd book went off on a tangent, hopefully the 4th is more on target.

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 06:31 PM (lJSgG)

Don't think Jon and Dany will ever fight for the throne tho.

They will however ride the dragons and incinerate the Others, thereby saving the realm.

Just a guess

Posted by: dearmistertumnus at June 25, 2012 06:31 PM (sB13t)

22 I dunno, I really liked the first 3 books. Had no trouble reading them. Book 4, especially with the Dorne storyline? zzzzZZZZzzzzzz

Posted by: HoboJerky, profit of DOOM! at June 25, 2012 06:32 PM (ePYQF)

23 Check out the prequel short stories as well (the Dunk and Egg stories).

Posted by: Throat Wobbler Mangrove at June 25, 2012 06:35 PM (l57Cl)

24 Her ass is too scaly; she's not hot enough; and she has pointy elbows.

Posted by: a dragon at June 25, 2012 06:35 PM (nrW1y)

25 >>> hopefully the 4th is more on target. nope. worst.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 06:36 PM (aw5Tx)

26 Not that many main characters have really been killed off since book 3. Oh, btw, bold prediction: Bran becomes an antagonist to Westeros.

Posted by: HoboJerky, profit of DOOM! at June 25, 2012 06:36 PM (ePYQF)

27 Neat. When you ctrl-F search a word, like 'dragon', it highlights it in the white text too.

Yeah, I'm easily amused.

Posted by: andycanuck at June 25, 2012 06:38 PM (nrW1y)

>>>nope. worst.

...that sux...what about the new one with the dragon on the cover?

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 06:38 PM (lJSgG)

nope. worst.
Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 10:36 PM (aw5Tx)

Yep. Been dog-eared about halfway through for months

Posted by: dearmistertumnus at June 25, 2012 06:38 PM (sB13t)

30 And you assume ned told the secret. I don't. He made a promise and he kept it. from everyone. Edited post. lol. My premise isn't that he told. I believe he kept the secret. My premise is that if he knew Snow wasn't his, the wife would intuitively know as well, even if he didn't say it. Catelyn was nobody's fool (when she wasn't a zombie), so I have a hard time believing she missed that one so far. Admittedly, I could be way off in my judgment of Martin's depth of plot skills. I simply haven't seen it as of yet.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 06:41 PM (a4CUi)

And dragons or nekkid or not, I could care less about the Dany character at this point. And I just know that she's going to be one of the main characters that not only survives, but probably will rule.

-----

...at least she's okay to look at on the tv show...the dragons are pretty cool too, the way she fried that sorcerer at the end of season 2.

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 06:41 PM (lJSgG)

32 Did someone say "dog ears"?

Posted by: president o'bumbles at June 25, 2012 06:42 PM (nrW1y)

"Joffrey Baratheon, what a bastard!"

"Where's the birth certificate!"

Â“Daenerys Targaryen, Wrong for Dragons, Wrong for the Realm!Â”

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 06:48 PM (lJSgG)

34 I feel like I'm the only person in the world that likes feast for crows, I'm digging dance with dragons too.

Posted by: dr. shatterhand at June 25, 2012 06:49 PM (kcKbE)

35 37 You're not the lone ranger. I like the Hound and am universally excoriated for it.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 06:52 PM (a4CUi)

36 George R. R. Martin is making it up as he goes.   And Aegon Targaryens name WAS Aegon. As for Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, Rhaegar, is actually quite apparent by two things that could be found in the first book.

First, the title of the series. "The Song of Ice and Fire." (later cemented during Daenary's visit to the visit to the worlocks castle, leading to her seeing her brother playing an instrument over a child. "He is the one will come," or something like that, then he sang a song of ice and fire to the child.   If it was the Dorne girl, Daeny would have more easily identified the look of dorn in "frog" when he visited from that vision. Instead she had to wait for Barristan to point it out.

Second, the last first person thought from Ned was about how he failed lyanna.   If that was about Robert, than he was days late, but as the only holder of the secret, it was clearly something else. Only open secret that couldn't be clarified about lyanna that was still around went back to Snow.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 06:52 PM (YKOnu)

37 A Dance with Dragons was a disappointment, but that is because George took his own sweet ass time releasing it, and if you make it to the end, the epilogue is friggen phenomenal.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 06:53 PM (YKOnu)

38 Jon might be a Targaryan. If he survives the mutiny he could marry Dany. IF! Martin has no love of any hero. I adore the books and hope Martin gets the next one out sooner rather than later. I'm desperate to know if Arya's training is being conducted by Jaqen H'Gar directly or otherwise. I also want to know what's up with Bran. I am such a geek.

Posted by: Alisa at June 25, 2012 06:56 PM (5VRhq)

You didn't stop after Book III?

have lost respect for you Ace...we tried to warn you. You just didn't listen.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 07:00 PM (gplzV)

40 I've never heard anyone describe the books as repetitive or a slog, certainly not compared to LoTR or Wheel of Time

Posted by: Jose at June 25, 2012 07:01 PM (srIqv)

41 "39 George R. R. Martin is making it up as he goes."

He has always compared it to a road trip where he knows all the major destinations ahead of time, but has to fill in the journey. So he's only partially making it up as he goes.

He got stuck severely trying to get the story from point A to B and it took 5 years for him to figure it out and finish the latest book.

Posted by: Jose at June 25, 2012 07:05 PM (srIqv)

42 Jon's burned hand is a problem. Danaerys cannot be burned, right? Her brother could, but he was unworthy. Even if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, how could he ever become a dragonrider? I enjoy the books, chapter by chapter, but I sure do wish GRRM would wrap it up already. It's almost as if he has decided that real history doesn't reach a conclusion so his imaginary history won't either.

Posted by: John Wemmick at June 25, 2012 07:06 PM (4r/8O)

43 the repetitive parts are the endless On The Road chapters (Arya, Brienne, Tyrion) where you know nothing of consequence will happen and guess what? It doesn't. It shares this fault with LotR. Splitting equal page counts between things that are not equal in eventfulness. Like when LotR diverges between Frodo/Sam and the rest of them. The rest of them are always meeting new people and getting into battles and going new places. The Frodo/Sam stuff is largely Desert of Ash, now Swamp of Dread, now Forrest of Sadness, now Fields of Bitter Tears. Low on food, Sam and Gollum fight, the ring grows weary around Frodo's neck. Repeat. It's not that there is nothing interesting in the Frodo/Sam parts. just not a great deal. it's just repetitive. Martin does this too. Yes, everyoen loves Arya. But I don't want to follow Arya for ten chapters when she's just walking down the road, getting kidnapped by one guy and then another. And look, another escape. Didn't see that coming (oh yes I did). When Tyrion is on the boat... my god, is it boring. Same crap as Arya on the road. This would be a great place for him to just say "She traveled for months..." then cut to the important bit (and don't just keep making up false perils for her). There's a lot of good stuff in the books, eventful stuff, stuff that changes the status quo. But a lot of the chapters are just Status Quo Continues chapters. And yet they take 30 pages to say "Status Quo Continues."

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:07 PM (aw5Tx)

44 here is GRRM doing an interview at Google, he's really interesting to listen to

http://youtu.be/QTTW8M_etko#t=5m10s

Posted by: Jose at June 25, 2012 07:08 PM (srIqv)

45 I actually exchanged emails with Martin back in 03 when I was in Iraq. He seemed to be an ok guy. To be honest the whole who is John snows baby daddy never really intrigued me. He won't leave the wall so who cares? Unless his "death" in DoD leaves him free of his vows his character is stuck in limbo of fighting the others. My guess is the promise Ned gave to his sister was to claim him as his son and never reveal the truth and that ace is right. But until the story arc moves, which it really hasn't in the past two books, it's kinda a mute point. While a great read in my estimation, sorry I think the series is one of the best I've ever read, the last book did not going anywhere.

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 07:10 PM (jmwiV)

46 Unfortunately, Martin seems to be a hard leftist. He probably got his contract stipulated to page count.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 07:10 PM (a4CUi)

47 the Red Wedding and the Viper/Mountain fight are as intense as reading gets

Posted by: Jose at June 25, 2012 07:10 PM (srIqv)

48 I'm not going to read the spoiler, I'm just about done with book #4. That being said... Wasn't this spelled out very clearly in book 3? Jon's mother is the sister of the Morning Star, right? He was a member of Mad King Arey's Kingsguard, and Ned killed him with 6 men after the War for the Trident, this was after the "False Spring" where Ned fathered the bastard during a famous tourney.

Posted by: Max Power at June 25, 2012 07:11 PM (+wxCD)

49 Btw feast for crows was good. Dude killing his dad ....mountain saying fuck you yeah I raped the bitch? Epic

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 07:11 PM (jmwiV)

Want to be happy in your fantasy reading?

Read more Gene Wolfe and less George Martin.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 07:11 PM (gplzV)

51 Reading more is good advice. Reading less isn't.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 07:13 PM (a4CUi)

52 >>> He won't leave the wall so who cares? Unless his "death" in DoD leaves him free of his vows his character is stuck in limbo of fighting the others. Well assuming he survives (which I assume), he has to leave the wall. What's he going to do? Stay there? >>> Jon's mother is the sister of the Morning Star, right? He was a member of Mad King Arey's Kingsguard, no. There are multiple stories *suggested* about his mother, and Lady Ashara Dayne is one of them. But other books say she had a *daughter*, not a son. The baby died, she killed herself. That's just one theory, which he's heard himself, but which his father wouldn't confirm. And no one's confirmed it. Some contradict it. Given that this is a mystery that persists throughout the books, he wouldn't just give it away early. (And I'm pretty sure this possibility was mentioned in Book One.)

Posted by: aace at June 25, 2012 07:14 PM (aw5Tx)

53 Another problem for George. The Show is progressing at approximately 1 season per book. that means he is producing tv shows at a 3-1 ratio, which is being kind, so he has to get his ass at the desk and start writing, unless he wants to convince the producers to stretch book 4 out to 5 seasons, cuz god knows it felt like 5 years reading that shitheap.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:15 PM (YKOnu)

54 >>>the Red Wedding and the Viper/Mountain fight are as intense as reading gets the red wedding was horrific. A high point, by being such a low point. I was chugging along optimistically, assuming things would work out, and then realized he wouldn't be spending this much time setting the scene if things were going to work out. And then, even knowing bad stuff was coming, it was worse than I expected.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:17 PM (aw5Tx)

55 57 Another problem for George. The Show is progressing at approximately 1 season per book. that means he is producing tv shows at a 3-1 ratio, which is being kind, so he has to get his ass at the desk and start writing, unless he wants to convince the producers to stretch book 4 out to 5 seasons, cuz god knows it felt like 5 years reading that shitheap.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 11:15 PM (YKOnu)

They took over a year off for the Sopranos. They could do the same here.

Posted by: buzzion at June 25, 2012 07:18 PM (GULKT)

56 his original plan was to end book three and start the next book five years later, giving the children (and other... things) time to advance into adulthood, when they could plausibly affect things. He should have stuck with that plan. Books 4 and 5 were essentially 3200 pages of padding.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:19 PM (aw5Tx)

57 I am reading Gene Wolfe now. Yes, I agree, the man is a wordsmith on par with Clark Ashton Smith, and MUCH better than Jack Vance.

(Still not as good as Dunsany, but nobody is.)

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at June 25, 2012 07:19 PM (QTHTd)

58 Robert mentioned lady dorne, the sister of the sword of the morning, ned ignored it, but does say her name which insinuated without admitting.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:19 PM (YKOnu)

59 Can not stand those books. I'm rooting for the Others (or whatever the scary Big Bad is on the north side of the giant wall) to kill every single person in the books. Slowly. There can be no good vs good fight, because there are only evil stupid people and slightly less evil stupid people.

Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at June 25, 2012 07:20 PM (jqHOY)

60 Yeah. The books are at risk of turning into a screenplay, with airing deadlines and fatass Martin, who never met a marketing gig he didn't like (Wild Cards, or perhaps figurines, anyone?) doesn't seem likely to pass up the cash. It's a shame, but I think this will happen and the ending will be crap.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 07:20 PM (a4CUi)

61 >>>Btw feast for crows was good. Dude killing his dad ....mountain saying fuck you yeah I raped the bitch? that was book 3, a storm of swords. Not a lot happens in book 4. The most interesting character in book 4 is Jaime. Martin seems to change his personality completely in order to make him palateable as a protagonist you spend lots of chapters with. I guess I found that interesting. not sure I super-believe it.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:20 PM (aw5Tx)

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at June 25, 2012 11:19 PM (QTHTd)

Just finished up book III of the Book of the New Sun tonight...already thinking about revisiting the Book of the Long Sun.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 07:21 PM (gplzV)

63 It's not so much that everyone is evil but that a feudal/tribal society makes it difficult to be virtuous and survive

The institutions of civil society don't exist to allow men to be good.

Posted by: Jose at June 25, 2012 07:23 PM (srIqv)

Book of the Short Sun,

not new sun...jeez.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 07:24 PM (gplzV)

65 "Yeah. The books are at risk of turning into a screenplay, with airing deadlines and fatass Martin, who never met a marketing gig he didn't like (Wild Cards, or perhaps figurines, anyone?) doesn't seem likely to pass up the cash."

Yeahp, he only EDITED Wild Cards but managed to drive that series of short stories, which I really enjoyed, down into the ground to the point that I had to use any announcement of a new book as kindling for my grill.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:24 PM (YKOnu)

66 Jaime hasn't gone from villain to rogue, he's gone from villain to hero. For two books (even a bit more), he's pretty much behaved with highest honor. Almost seems to go out of his way to do the right thing. Jaime?! Just doesn't seem all that plausible. Martin never really explained what brought on this complete moral transformation.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:24 PM (aw5Tx)

67 >>>There can be no good vs good fight, because there are only evil stupid people and slightly less evil stupid people. Pixy said this too. What about the starks? What's wrong with them? Which of the starks don't you like?

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:25 PM (aw5Tx)

68 I should save this thread for posterity. Then, when Martin stuns everyone with the final ending, I can come back and say "Martin's biggest surprise? Well that would be what just happened in your mouth." PS - Daenerys alone is worth watching the show.

Posted by: Bcochran1981 at June 25, 2012 07:26 PM (GEICT)

Martin never really explained what brought on this complete moral transformation.

Brienne.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 07:27 PM (gplzV)

70 you don't get Jaime's perspective until the 3rd book, all you get is how others perceive him

I would say rotting in a cell and getting his hand chopped off was part of his transformation.

Posted by: Jose at June 25, 2012 07:27 PM (srIqv)

71 70 Jaime hasn't gone from villain to rogue, he's gone from villain to hero. For two books (even a bit more), he's pretty much behaved with highest honor. Almost seems to go out of his way to do the right thing.

Jaime?!

Just doesn't seem all that plausible. Martin never really explained what brought on this complete moral transformation.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 11:24 PM (aw5Tx)

Perhaps the same thing that caused him to slay the Mad King?

Posted by: buzzion at June 25, 2012 07:27 PM (GULKT)

72 Also I liked Jaime's conversion. He always knew that most everything he has done was vile, but there was always a latent humanity to him. His problem always being his resentment of his father and his fathers ambitions when jaime only had two, maybe three if you include his protectiveness of his little brother.

Now, with the changes in the recent books, he is looking for a new focus, and seems finaly able to find his honor.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:27 PM (YKOnu)

Holy shit, Ace. Good job, whether you're right or wrong. You deserve an attaboy just for so closely reading this ponderously-long series that you can credibly theorize stuff like this.

I love long convoluted series as much as the next closeted geek (I just got done re-reading the previous books of Erickson's Malazan series before I started the final) but even Martin admits this series got away from him. It may be GoT blasphemy, but this story would have been better with 1/2 the plotlines.

Good, crunchy dark realism, but waaaaay to long and gratuitously twisty. Kudos to Martin for being willing to kill his main characters with surprising regularity, but I'm deducting points for those who keep coming back.

SPOILER ALERT FOR ERICKSON READERS - Erickson's even worse on that score - does anyone actually die in these books or does every mangled, flash-fried, dragon-eaten or soul-stolen protagonist end up wandering his universe as an Ascendant, undead, ghost or something similar ?

Garret @ 54: I loved Wolfe's Severian books. Some of his writing lives up to the hype as verging on literary rather than genre fiction. Some of it's a little artsy for my tastes but I'd call him one of my top 10 scififantasy writers. So's Martin, though.

The bar's just not that high sadly, given that so many RPG-inspired hacks and romance-novel-refugee feminists seem to churn out most of the product nowadays (yes, Erickson's RPG-inspired too, but he overcomes that - mostly. The main deficiency in his books is RPG born - the overblown "Monster Manual" cast of races, creatures and other oddities).

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at June 25, 2012 07:27 PM (yK8YH)

Which of the starks don't you like?

Hodor!

Posted by: Hodor at June 25, 2012 07:28 PM (gplzV)

75 interesting theory. Is the old maester, the previously thought-to-be last of the Targaryans alive? Aemon or whatever his name is? I know he set sail with Sam and the baby, but last I heard he was not expected to survive the voyage. Anyhoo, I think IF Jon is a Targaryan, which I'm not quite buying, he would follow the old dude's lead and refuse to rule. He's a brother of the Night's watch now (assuming he survives, which heck, he might not).

Posted by: BurtTC at June 25, 2012 07:29 PM (2pG7H)

76 @73. Brienne and the loss of his hand.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 07:29 PM (cujSl)

77 Other than cercei jaime's greatest crimes were done out of noble motivations.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:29 PM (YKOnu)

78 >>> you don't get Jaime's perspective until the 3rd book, all you get is how others perceive him I know how Bran perceived him, huh? That's not a perception thing. That was pretty damn evil.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:30 PM (aw5Tx)

79 Agreed. Pushing a kid out of a window is pretty fargin' high on the evil-o-meter. I still believe that profound hardship can cause a man to reevaluate himself.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 07:33 PM (cujSl)

80 Yet the tale of how he wished to stop the mad king brutalizing the queen, how if it weren't for . . whichever of the kings guard it was being present preventing him from killing arys in the throne room to protect brandon and the father.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:34 PM (YKOnu)

81 just saying that in jaime's case he didn't really evolve. One day he just started behaving like a hero.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:34 PM (aw5Tx)

82 I find Varys, Littlefinger and Lothario good, though unusual protagonists.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:35 PM (YKOnu)

---Brienne and the loss of his hand.---

They are one and the same.

Brienne is the embodiement of Jaime Lannister sans hand and status - yet she achieves true honor. [In action if not result.]

...and Hodor!

Posted by: Hodor at June 25, 2012 07:36 PM (gplzV)

84 I don't really care taht he killed Aerys. As everyone says, they didn't call him the Mad King for nothing. Everyone wanted Aerys dead at that point. that's hardly the problem. the problem is bran.

Posted by: ace at June 25, 2012 07:36 PM (aw5Tx)

85 Funny thing is I was most annoyed with Danaeris getting bogged down with all those other wars instead of just pursuing her destiny. I kept thinking, "women. Sheesh."

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 07:36 PM (cujSl)

86 Wow, a thousand-word post in white font. Think I'll read it? Not.

Posted by: Arms Merchant at June 25, 2012 07:36 PM (+XVQe)

87 sockoff

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 07:37 PM (gplzV)

88 Yllario that is.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:37 PM (YKOnu)

89 @85, ace. Sloppy writing perhaps? As one who aspires to be the next Great American Author, I know how easy it is to miss something that a reader sees instantly. Just speculating.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 07:38 PM (cujSl)

90 Daeny is acting like an irrational slutty girl. Dragons or no, she's acting like a friggen Idiot.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:38 PM (YKOnu)

91 Experiencing what happened with King's Dark Tower series turn into absolute crap, after beginning with absolute brilliance, under market pressures leads me to be very pessimistic about how this will turn out. And being an epic whore of immense proportions, this will be an amazing disappointment that I have zero control over and no rationale as to why. Pass the scotch.

Posted by: IdowhatIwant at June 25, 2012 07:39 PM (a4CUi)

92 @94. I phrased it more delicately, but yeah.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 07:40 PM (cujSl)

93 I think Jaime was always a conflicted character torn between two goals, one of a sin that he himself couldn't forgive himself for and another of a nobility he strived for despite his fathers ambition.

It was the loss of his hand, and brienne that cemented the path he would follow, all initiated by an unexpected kindness for cat.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:40 PM (YKOnu)

94 Pushing a kid out of a window is pretty fargin' high on the evil-o-meter.
Meh.

Posted by: zombie richard iii at June 25, 2012 07:41 PM (nrW1y)

79 Burt: I'd say the Night's Watch won't exist by the end of this series (or will be so different it won't be recognizable). No one seems to keep their oaths anyway (Jon, Sam, Dareon, etc).

RE: Aemon, the answer's in Crows in the 700's, since I'm not sure where you're at in reading.

81 Douglas - I'd say Bran's an exception. Martin does seem to take Jaime's redemption a bit far, almost as if he changed his own mind about protagonist/antagonist rather than setting us up deliberately from the jump. I like seeing villains evolve into shades of grey and it fits the shifting perspective style used here pretty well. The character seems to know he's considered a villain and is suffering from his own misdeeds in party, so I don't find it too grating.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at June 25, 2012 07:43 PM (yK8YH)

Pushing a kid out of a window is pretty fargin' high on the evil-o-meter.

Depends on the kid.

Posted by: Shirley Partridge at June 25, 2012 07:43 PM (gplzV)

97 I've been Brienne and I've been Jaimie at different points in my life, so his turn doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. I'm digging all the Gene Wolfe love, once you put away your wubby and your milk bottle, it's time to crack open "Shadow of the Torturer." If you think Tolkein is grown up fantasy then maybe it's time to grow up for real.

Posted by: Max Power at June 25, 2012 07:45 PM (+wxCD)

98 So ace since you're done with GoT does that mean your about to start America You Sexy Bitch? Tonestaple has started it and I think she may be contemplating climbing a clocktower.

Posted by: buzzion at June 25, 2012 07:46 PM (GULKT)

99 Jaime was acting as he thought cercei wanted, and he was always a fool for her, and it is a brutal world in which they live. It's a small acknowledgement of his evil prior to his act, but he's also the son of a man who supposedly ordered the brutalization of dorne and the murder of a still nursing child.

It's not like he had a lot of strong moral examples, and everytime he sought it on his own, he was halted. . . in the name of morality.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:47 PM (YKOnu)

100

89: Agree - Cersei and Brienne are the only kinda-compelling female characters - the rest seem like props and window dressing. Sansa's a "dialogue horse" for Petyr now (after being one at Winterfell and King's Landing before).

I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck he's doing with Arya (one of the superfluous plotlines, IMO - she gives the Grrl Power set someone to root for, but she's been disconnected from the main plot for like five books).

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at June 25, 2012 07:47 PM (yK8YH)

101 Wolfe, great writing, story overall senseless, in the urth series.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:48 PM (YKOnu)

102 There is a theory that the "Knight of the Laughing Tree" was really Lyanna and that is when Rhaegar fell in love with her. For those of you who don't remember there was a tournament in which Rhaegar unexpectedly crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty. On the journey north the Reed siblings were telling Bran a story about that tournament and kept asking him "are you sure your father never told you this?" and generally made it appear to be a Stark story. Anyway at this tournament a few squires were tormenting Howland Reed until Lyanna came around and forced them to stop. That evening she offered to help find Howland armor and a horse so that he could fight in the tournament and get his revenge. He said no, on account of having no skill on a horse and not wanting to embarrass his House. Out of nowhere a knight "short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor" showed up at the tournament and ended up defeating the knights of the squires in the process. The Knight of the Laughing Tree then disappears and Aerys, being overcome with rage, sends Rhaegar out to search for the Knight. Rhaegar is only able to find the Knights shield, which had been discarded in a tree. There really are only 2 people it could've been, Howland himself or Lyanna. Lyanna is remarked as being half-horse and comments are made about how winning tournaments is more about horsemanship than strength or skill with a lance. The other point that marks it as being Lyanna is Jojen asking Bran multiple times if he is sure his father has never told him the story and corrects Meeren when she says it might have been a Crannongman. "'Or not,' Jojen's face was dappled with green snadows. 'prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure.'" The idea is that Rhaegar discovered Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and fell in love with her then telling his father that he was only able to find the knights shield. Thus precipitating his running off with Lyanna.

Posted by: Colonel Pooteh at June 25, 2012 07:50 PM (t2cnv)

103 Didn't the Targaryans inbreed? $10 says Jon Snow and Daenarys knock boots.

Posted by: Moshe Al-Shabazz at June 25, 2012 07:51 PM (W6k2E)

104 Think the stories of the starks is contained in the names of their wolves. I don't think Jon is dead, so exactly how "ghost" works, unless he represents a life that was assumed dead in the Targaryens, or some BS manipulation of the end of ADwD.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:52 PM (YKOnu)

105 the 3rd book went off on a tangent, hopefully the 4th is more on target. Clash of Kings is one of the best books I have ever read not sure where you think it went off on a tangent. Feast for Crows was a snooze fest and took a lot foe me to get through. While A Dance with Dragons, the 5th, is a much better book than Feast although you really start to hate Dany in it.

Posted by: Colonel Pooteh at June 25, 2012 07:53 PM (t2cnv)

106 don't think any of the stories of the multiple marriages of targaryents, consisted of two husbands, and "The dragon has 3 heads."

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:55 PM (YKOnu)

107 Douglas, I take umbrage at the term senseless. Urth is a great circle of life, death and rebirth time travel mystery...with the Citadel of the Autarch being the penultimate prestige moment of the series.

Posted by: Max Power at June 25, 2012 07:56 PM (+wxCD)

108 One of the things that hasn't been mentioned on Jaime's motives for killing the mad king; I was under the impression that the last straw for Jaime wasn't burning people alive in the throne room but that the mad king was going to torch the whole city and everyone in it with that wildfire stuff.

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 07:57 PM (lJSgG)

109

101 Max - I always found Tolkein fairy-tailish - one of the reasons I tend to gravitate toward "adult fantasy" for which Martin's a mature example (most books in the genre seem to just be porn and gore).

The Torturer series stands out for me by being totally different in a lot of ways - it straddles scifi and fantasy, relies on characterization and plot rather than tech/magic, and has some fairly profound writing at times. It's a lot more fun to read than most the classic literature we got force-fed in school, while still being very literary and grown-up.

I can't get into the Soldier in the Mist books nearly as much (on my second try at it after putting it down midway through the first book). Wolfe's style is so "unique," for lack of a better word, that it's hard for me to read him on a subject I've studied for history rather than letting him run wild in a world of his own imagination.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at June 25, 2012 07:58 PM (yK8YH)

110 I meant more that there was no awareness on the part of the protagonist other than a near pathological fear of death and vengeance. The timeline was flimsy and a little offputting, though easily followable.

DEFINATELY brilliantly written, and not at all offensive, but a lot of, "And this guy is the protagonist why? cuz he has THAT sword?"

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 07:58 PM (YKOnu)

111 Not getting enough Bran?

Posted by: Wilford Brimley at June 25, 2012 07:58 PM (nrW1y)

112 grats. i think you have figured out *part* of the meaning of the title to the series: A Song of Ice and Fire.

Posted by: A.G. at June 25, 2012 07:59 PM (rHTdD)

113 I agree with this theory.

It will fit nicely at the conclusion of the series when Jon marries Daenerys to become king and queen and restore proper Targaryen rule to Westeros. Targaryens marry each other.

Posted by: AlphaBase1 at June 25, 2012 07:59 PM (O1e87)

114 112 One of the things that hasn't been mentioned on Jaime's motives for killing the mad king;

That was Brandon and Lord Stark. Neds older brother, and father.

Ned refused armsmen to Arys, it wasn't until the taking of lyanna that the north and StormsEnd and the Aery allied against the mad king.

That was the act I mentioned about jaime saying he could have ended the rebellion right then or something while recounting the history of the rebellion to Cat.

"Kingslayer, you say that like I feel as though it is a sin." Then he recounts the story of how lord stark and his heir were called to court and sadistically murdered.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:01 PM (YKOnu)

115 101/105 - I can see both of your points. The Long Sun books are much less approachable than the New Sun books and I've put them aside (as with Soldier) on more than one occasion. I intend to get through them because I remember having the same trouble with New Sun when it was first published - back when I was in my teens - then loving them after re-reading them later.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at June 25, 2012 08:02 PM (yK8YH)

116 Yeah got the books confused and here I am having read them twice. Fml His idea to slog off 5 years an continue should have been done. Could have had a mad prologue and left out the stupid fake dragon kid. Also Victorian is a horrible character not worth reading. Reek was funny though

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 08:03 PM (jmwiV)

117

It will fit nicely at the conclusion of the series when Jon marries Daenerys to become king and queen and restore proper Targaryen rule to Westeros. Targaryens marry each other.

----------

Ya, maybe GRRM will buy the solution from ace and wrap it up in time for the tv show, cuz the rate he's going, the actress that plays Arya is going to be an old lady before they finish. She got noticeably older between season 1 and 2.

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:03 PM (lJSgG)

118 Also, Jamie was able to become evolve and the man he is once he was removed from Cersei and Tywin Lannister.

He's not a 'hero', but he's not a bad guy either.

Posted by: AlphaBase1 at June 25, 2012 08:06 PM (O1e87)

119

>>"Kingslayer, you say that like I feel as though it is a sin." Then he recounts the story of how lord stark and his heir were called to court and sadistically murdered.

----------

Forgot about that...parts are blurry in my memory...I think the new words were causing a memory dump of the old words cuz I was out of ram...

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:07 PM (lJSgG)

120 Ace is years behind the curve. Look for "Westeros, a song of Ice and Fire Forum." westeros<dot>com

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:07 PM (YKOnu)

121 Look the reason I like these books is because the modern fantasy book has become stale as shit. Omg Drizzt killed 500000 orcs with his flashing scimitars of doom! Omg Rand al Thoe discovered a new epic power never seen before since the bad guys who never die used it 10,000 years ago...but somehow didn't use against him until book 12. I like how the characters die, it's different, and you don't know who is getting offed. I'm sick of reading shit where good guy x, let's call him some stupid cliche shit like Ranger, is tall good looking and bangs elf whores, battling evil repugnant guys called orcs where the one plot twist is his one Wierd friend who acts Wierd betrays him in book 2. It's stupid and done move on tolkein is dead

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 08:08 PM (jmwiV)

122 Wolfe's New Sun was a series I struggled with, but then I was a teenager when I first read Shadow of the Torturer. While a lot of it flew over my head, so much of the imagery haunted me in a Lovecraft-ian way that I returned again and again in succeeding years, and now I consider it to be one of the best fantasy series written.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 08:11 PM (cujSl)

123 Yeah, I, like probably many others, started reading the books cuz they saw season 1 of the tv show and wanted to know what happens next...then the long *slog* began. I wound up in the hospital with a blood clot in my lung probably from lack of moving around trying to slog through these damn books

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:11 PM (lJSgG)

124 Page 82 of a game of thrones.

I was reading the first book and getting bored with it. I give every book a 1/3 read just in case I'm missing something. Well, 1/3 or 100 pages depending on size of book.

Page 82 game of thrones hardback, and I literally sat up straight and said to myself, "Shit! this guy is trying to do something."

and I will read the rest of the series, assuming the old bastard ever gets around to writing the rest of them.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:13 PM (YKOnu)

125 @125. I agree. Song of Ice and Fire is purely riproaring reading. I tore through the series in pretty short order. Of course I also got so pissed off with some of the hero deaths that I flung the book across the room once or twice. Visceral entertainment.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at June 25, 2012 08:13 PM (cujSl)

126 nothin' wrong with bangin' Elf whores.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 08:13 PM (gplzV)

127 SocietyIs2Blame...yeah Long Sun I started maybe two times and put aside. When I finally had a lazy stretch of time to finally read them, wow. Incredibly moving, deeply personal and kind of hard to describe. Really his best work, but maybe not as exciting as the Urth series. It's interesting to note that it is written first person, unusual for Gene Wolfe.

Posted by: Max Power at June 25, 2012 08:13 PM (+wxCD)

128 I only read TLotR all the way through because I was in the Brigg. everytime I tried before I would get bored by the sencon song and long ass tale of smoking pipes that I stopped because I wasn't trapped in one place with a reading list of 3 books every other day.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:15 PM (YKOnu)

129 Here's the problem and solution to this GRRM issue:

The only thing that inspires greatness is the need for safety and stability. This why as comedians get older they become less funny.

GRRM in 1996 was doing OK, but was not rich or super successful, so he was knocking out awesome 1,000 page books every other year.

Then he got rich and successful, and the books dropped in quality and started coming out 5 years apart. I really think he was practically forced to write book 5.

Solution is for GRRM to turn the writing over to a young and eager author, give him/her the outline of how you see the story going, and maintain as executive editor with veto power.

And make the series go for 10 books or more. Because The Song of Ice and Fire makes life better.

Posted by: AlphaBase1 at June 25, 2012 08:16 PM (O1e87)

130 Also, the Long Sun series spans four books and maybe takes place over about a week or two..a very strange way to pace a series of novels. Definitely well worth it in a heart wrenching kind of way.

Posted by: Max Power at June 25, 2012 08:17 PM (+wxCD)

131 131 SocietyIs2Blame...yeah Long Sun I started maybe two times and put aside. When I finally had a lazy stretch of time to finally read them, wow. Incredibly moving, deeply personal and kind of hard to describe. Really his best work, but maybe not as exciting as the Urth series. It's interesting to note that it is written first person, unusual for Gene Wolfe.

True, but while it's written in the first person, each book has maybe ONE reaction of passion. The protagonist is so passionless. I was VERY reminded of "The Stranger."

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:18 PM (YKOnu)

132 I've read Lord of the Rings a few times...it's just a cool place to visit. Song of Fire and Ice is much thicker with detail.

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:18 PM (lJSgG)

133 and less pipe smoking and campfire singing CanaDave.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:20 PM (YKOnu)

134

>>>Solution is for GRRM to turn the writing over to a young and eager author, give him/her the outline of how you see the story going, and maintain as executive editor with veto power.

-----

Ya, Clive Cussler did that...the books he 'franchised' out kinda suck.

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:21 PM (lJSgG)

135 Longbottom Leaf rocks there, Douglas...too bad I had to quit smoking cuz of my blood clot

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:22 PM (lJSgG)

136 @65 Ace... I,too, find Jaime interesting. I was hoping he might find some peace with Brienne but who knows. I fear Jaime is fated to kill his sister, Cersei.

Posted by: Petunia at June 25, 2012 08:23 PM (zw1MU)

137 Also if you think Martin sold out then wtf do you think of RA Salvatore, Raymond Feist, and David Endings? Not only did they sell out but they are helping George Lucas write Star Wars 8 where a storm trooper visits a Turkish bathhouse and gets gang raped by the extras in Raiders of the Lost Arc.

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 08:24 PM (jmwiV)

138 The best part so far is when Joffrey gets poisoned...that was like 'f*ck, yeah!'

Posted by: CanaDave at June 25, 2012 08:25 PM (lJSgG)

139 Feist had 6 good books, I GUESS you could include the first of the shitty ones when pug moves away from the empire and the west, but it was clearly the beginning of the end.

Nover got into Feist, and Eddings Ellenium and mallorean were good, couldn't get into the other ones.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:27 PM (YKOnu)

140 I can't wait to see Tyrion and Dany in action. That will be an interesting meeting of the minds.

Posted by: Petunia at June 25, 2012 08:29 PM (zw1MU)

141 >>> Ya, Clive Cussler did that...the books he 'franchised' out kinda suck.
----
GRRM written books 4 and 5 of TSoIaF - while still good - haven't come close to the high mark (peak?) of book 3. There may be no win here.

Posted by: AlphaBase1 at June 25, 2012 08:29 PM (O1e87)

142 144 I can't wait to see Tyrion and Dany in action. That will be an interesting meeting of the minds.

Pretty sure that was meant as the singluar. "Mind."

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:30 PM (YKOnu)

143 Btw raymond Feist sucks dick. I keep waiting for one of the bad guys to come from the weird alien world 65, pull out a "scouter" and shout "omg Pug's power level is 9000!"

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 08:31 PM (jmwiV)

144 also Branden Sandersen is doing a damn good job with the last three books of TWoT, but that's because RJ really did leave a detailed outline, that he constantly updated, and was writing paragraphs and plotlines books ahead of what was published.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:32 PM (YKOnu)

145 I just read Sandersons mist borne books and he did have a flair for making random events in books 1 and 2 mean something in the last one. Also one hell of a "guess whose the real hero" crap at the end.

Posted by: Mr Pink at June 25, 2012 08:38 PM (jmwiV)

146 He was chosen to fill in for RJ after RJ's death, because he would always send his books to RJ, saying that RJ was part of why he became an author, and how much he loved TWoT and so on. Before RJ died he met with Harriet, and before he could meet with RJ RJ died, Now, he is "co-author" with a dead guy who inspired him to become a writer.

Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 08:44 PM (YKOnu)

147 I have to disagree, there. Sanderson is awful. Reading the last two books has been torture. The only thing that keeps me going on the WoT slog is my deep rooted hatred of self.

Posted by: garrett at June 25, 2012 08:52 PM (KZz5l)

148 One quibble: His name was Rhaegar not Rhaegon.

That being out of the way, I've read read book 5 twice now and I don't think Aegon ("Young Griff") is Edric Dayne. Jon Connington believes he's really Aegon and, while I don't have chapter and verse ready to hand to cite, the clear impression I got from their time travelling the Rhoyne (and Connington's own internal dialogue later) is that Connington has been looking after him for a long, long time (IOW, not just since Edric dropped out of the story a short while ago as part of a newly-hatched plot with Varys to seat a pretender). Septa Lemore has been teaching him for years, as well.

No, I believe that the story Tyrion hears is true: Varys secreted Aegon out of King's Landing as a baby and gave him over to Connington's care and he's been raised to one day return and take back the Iron Throne for his House. Varys really does what he thinks is best for the realm, so the reason he gave Kevan for killing him is his real reason: Kevan was going to fix all the lovely chaos the astonishingly stupid Cersei had created and spoil his long-nurtured plan to put Aegon on the Iron Throne.

I initially disagreed with the idea that Lyanna & Rhaegar were Jon Snow's parents but I've come around to it. I now think there's a very good argument that Jon Snow is actually Azor Ahai. So, either he, Dany, and Aegon are indeed the 3-headed dragon (but all real, not 2 real and one fake) who will take Westeros back or (more likely to my mind, given that he's already passed on being Lord of Winterfell), Jon assumes the mantle of Azor Ahai and leaves Westeros to Aegon, Dany, or whoever and goes North to defeat the Others (GRRM has said we're going to see a lot of the North we haven't seen yet coming up soon). Dying would technically release him from his vow to the Night's Watch (the words of the vow are clear, even if they weren't intended for that situation) but he's not the type to shirk his duty on a technicality.

As for the Iron Bank, they're setting up what could prove to be a more interesting end game: They're throwing their support behind Stannis--the only personage they know of who's actually in Westeros with a solid competing claim to Tommen's. Because he will pay them. So the Bank will be backing Stannis against Aegon/Dany/Jon(?) when it all comes to it.

Posted by: Dodd at June 25, 2012 09:24 PM (7KDDM)

149 @152 good post. Great point about Jon dying releasing him from NW oath, although I don't think he really wants that (yet).

I love Stannis, btw. And as far as the Iron Bank goes, he's the best money bet currently going in Westeros. He may be a dick, but he acts the king better than anyone else so far.

Posted by: AlphaBase1 at June 25, 2012 09:34 PM (O1e87)

150 The best part so far is when Joffrey gets poisoned...that was like 'f*ck, yeah!' *** I agree I do think ACE is right about Jon, figured that one a year ago, but then he may change it up just to wig everyone out. Jon lives, he must Enough, it is time for the Dragons to come home to roost!

Posted by: gonzotx at June 25, 2012 09:37 PM (3izs/)

151 153 **** Robb was a great King till he let his heart betray him Where is Arya's wolf, I know about the rumors, in the forest leading a pack of regular wolfs, but lets get real, this is her protector of sorts, doesn't seem right. What about the youngest Stark, he just went off never to be talked of again. He may come back with the biggest role, who knows. I don't like the changes HBO made in the second season. Sucked big time.

Posted by: gonzotx at June 25, 2012 09:46 PM (3izs/)

152 This is probably correct, but one problem I have with it is that Jon Snow looks 100% Stark, with no Targaryen elements. After all the genetic discussion with other characters and plotlines, why is it that he would get ALL of his phenotype from his mother? And what does that say about his inheritance from his Targ bloodline? I say Tyrion will bed Dany when she returns to Meereen.

Posted by: JRR at June 26, 2012 03:11 AM (TK/Kt)

153 Anyone have any thoughts on a potential heir for Robb Stark? I've seen some theories floated that Jayne Westerling went into hiding because she was pregnant and was replaced with her sister.

this theory basically hinges on a differing description of her at two different points, one where she is introduced to Catelyn and describes as having good child bearing hips, and then later when Jaime meets up with her during one of his POV chapters describing her as having narrow hips.

Probably a red herring, but it seemed like a big clue that a lot of people on the various internets seized on.

I'm not done with DWD yet, so maybe it's resolved but I don't think so.

Posted by: dr. shatterhand at June 26, 2012 03:33 AM (OisKx)

154 also the Viper/Mountain fight I thought was sort of a rip off of the Princess Bride. It was still cool, but I was watching that scene from the movie the other day, and it hit me like a bolt of lightning that it was basically the same schtick.

on a side note, the sound track from The Princess Bride is horrendous, I have realized that the movie in all facets is way over rated.

Posted by: dr. shatterhand at June 26, 2012 03:49 AM (OisKx)

155 Welcome to the Jon Targaryen club.

Posted by: NJRob at June 26, 2012 03:58 AM (FVp26)

156 Posted by: Douglas at June 25, 2012 11:15 PM (YKOnu)

They took over a year off for the Sopranos. They could do the same here.

The producers said they will split the next book into 2 seasons because it is just too large to squeeze into a single season.

Posted by: exsanguine at June 26, 2012 04:20 AM (RccHN)

157 Figures a GoT discussion would break out when I went to bed early.

Most of the speculation about Aegon is that he is a fake, since Qaithe (the mysterious woman who appears to Dany and tells her of the people coming to her) prophecies "a mummer's dragon." Connington was told of Aegon's identity as a young boy, a few years after his supposed death, by Ilyrios of Pentos. Tyrion notes the statue in Pentos of Illyrios as a young man looks like "Young Griff." It is noted that Ilyrios' dead wife resembled the Targaryen look. The speculation is that she was a Blackfyre, a descendent of the Targaryen line that rebelled against the crown a hundred years earlier. The Golden Company, formed by Bittersteel, was created with the intention of putting a Blackfyre on the throne. Who is supporting Aegon in his attempt to take the throne? Golden Company. The theory is that Ilyrios is taking his own son, descended from the Blackfryes on his mother's side (Martin makes a point of saying how the male line was extinguished), and gave him to Connington under the pretense that he is the rightful king. Just do a search for Blackfyre Pretenders or Rebellion and there is a ton more.

I would recommend checking out the forums on Westeros.org, where you can literally waste hours reading things you never even noticed.

This is what makes the series so enjoyable. There are literally hundreds of elements woven throughout the book that aren't apparent until re-reading. For example, Tommen complains about an old, mean black cat picking on his kittens. Its description is the same as the cat Arya is chasing when she discovers the dragons skulls. If you read a bit further into it, it is the same cat mentioned by Ser Barristan in his recollections of Princess Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter). He remembers her little black kitten that was always be her side and whatever happened to it. It is such a minor thing, but really adds to the world building.

Posted by: Synnerman at June 26, 2012 06:03 AM (0Bdlg)

158 I think Jon is the Lyanna's son and that the new Aegon is real. We'll find out eventually--Howland Reed is still alive and he's the only one who will know for sure. Note the "bed of blood" references to Lyanna (which is used a euphemism for child birth in some other scenes) and the fact that the Kingsguard were at the Tower even though none of the Targaryen's were there. That only make sense if there was one, or one being born... Aegon I think is real because of Connington and a host of circumstantial evidence.

Posted by: NYCcon at June 26, 2012 06:08 AM (jLXdE)

159 Oh, and Wolfe: the greatest living SF author. The New Sun/Long Sun/Short Sun/Urth set are technically science fiction not fantasy but it hardly matters. I agree that Long Sun is more approachable than the New Sun series, but they're both wonderful. Not easy reads by any means, though. Wolfe never comes out and tells you what's going on but you can piece it together. He once described Long Sun as being about a good man trapped in a bad religion.

Posted by: NYCcon at June 26, 2012 06:14 AM (jLXdE)

160 Love this thread.

If you go back and read the prologue of DWD after finishing the book, you see that Jon has probably warged into Ghost. Otherwise, the prologue makes no sense.

The Mummer's Dragon was one of the visions in the house of Undying that Dany sees in ACOK,

Posted by: Stormy70 at June 26, 2012 06:21 AM (gfTmA)

161 meh, the tv series is OK.

But too much fantasy/video game world schlock.

Don't want to invest time in the books.

Prefer something historical or history based fiction. Much more interesting and satisfying.

Though the naked dragon mother chick in the films is hot . . .

Posted by: Sphynx at June 26, 2012 06:45 AM (fEmj2)

162 One issue with the idea Varys wanted people to hear. The children with the daggers are clearly Varys' birds. In the first book, when Arya overhears Varys and Illiyrio talking, it's made clear that these kids have their tongues cut out (it's indicated that they learn a cipher and give reports to Varys that he then burns). Thus, the kids with the daggers will not be able to speak and tell people what they hear.

Posted by: Publius24 at June 26, 2012 07:19 AM (ML55S)

163 Then there's the story Cersei tells Cat about her "stillborn " first baby that gets taken away before she can ever see it, What if Jon is Robert's legit son? He has the same markings as Robert's bastard the blacksmith.

Posted by: Dag at June 26, 2012 07:30 AM (g53Ph)

164 Feast and to a lesser extent, Dance, were a slog to get through. It didn't help that both books don't share characters, so if your favorite character wasn't that particular book, you were out of luck. As Tyrion is my favorite character, I hate what they've done to him and how they've taken him out of playing the game.

Posted by: Matt at June 26, 2012 07:38 AM (c4srZ)

165 Darn it - now I've got to go re-read books 1-4.... still protesting the ridiculous Kindle Price for Book 5.

Posted by: 2nd Amendment Mother at June 26, 2012 07:45 AM (L4CWX)

166 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at June 26, 2012 08:17 AM (Xb3hu)

167 Given Martin's seeming penchant for incest, odds are the war between Jon Snow and Danaerys will be resolved by the two of them marrying and taking the throne together. Then they'll have crazy vicious inbred children who will start the whole mess over again by beheading someone else.

Posted by: Lee Reynolds at June 26, 2012 08:27 AM (rJMw2)

168 Dani and Jon will get married and unite the kingdom.

But Jon is Robert's bastard.

That way everybody can die happy when the wights come over the wall.

Posted by: mpurinTexas at June 26, 2012 09:14 AM (J4Pnx)

169 164 Love this thread.

If you go back and read the prologue of DWD after finishing the book, you see that Jon has probably warged into Ghost. Otherwise, the prologue makes no sense.

Problem, for Jon to be king he must have the blood of the dragon, and in the prologue the other WARG describes a complete loss of abilities. Only way Jon could be of the blood of the dragon after a warg transition would be to subjugate someone else with the blood of a dragon, and also a warg.

Posted by: Douglas at June 26, 2012 09:25 AM (YKOnu)

170 Jon is the elder dragon born of the heir of arys, Aegon is the younger, Dany is a cousin.   All three are of diverse bloodlines.

The analysis of the name of the series, is OBVIOUSLY about both the targaryens and the starks, which means that Jon will be the king, in my opinion, also, it's a play on the conflict with the Others, who can only be killed with "fire in steel, stone or as fire."

As for the starks, lets go through the first presaging of plot.

We have Jon, "Ghost." there is a lot of ambiguity to that, could just be that he was the one without a name or history, but Martin will find a way of killing Jon and then bringing him back.

Robb the next eldest, and first legitimate "Grey Wind." I had a problem with this, but I think it was deliberate.   Robb was the stark who would sweep the world in the greyness between "summer and winter," presaging that winter is comming, and with his fall, winter was there, which is depicted in the books.

Sansa had "lady" and then lost her, but she still dreams of lady, though she's dead. Without her wolf, she is still a lady, she will be the political tool that manipulates the actions of kingdomes to rebuild under the dragon, which Baelish is a part of the conspiracy of.

Arya had "Nymeria" which is an actual historical name of a woman warior, a rather brutal one, as well as being an in book historical queen who lead troops when her husband fell on the battle field, also known for violence.

Bran has "Summer" and old nurse nan, hodors great or great great grandmother, would call bran "a child of summer" since he had never faced a winter. This insinuates that not only is Bran the child of summer, but he will be the one who will usher in the new summer one the others are defeated, and winter is gone.

Ricken has "Shaggydog." Rickon lost all references to society and is a wild animal, sorta like being infected with Arys' madness due to poor guidance, ricken is a non-character other than to promote fillial conflict and motiviation.

It didn't register until Arya had her dreams on the ship, but the thing that JON! said when finding the Wolves, "The banner of house Stark is the Direwolf my lord, these were meant for them sir."

And the fact that Jon said it, means that Jon is still alive and central to the story.   Jon said it, and Bran was the first to adopt. If George had a plan, that was one of the most important moments in the books, even if it's just to give some hints as to how the rest of the series plays out.

Posted by: Douglas at June 26, 2012 09:41 AM (YKOnu)

171 here is a less poetic, but more succinct link.

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Direwolf

Posted by: Douglas at June 26, 2012 09:47 AM (YKOnu)

172 I read all of them at a fast pace. The last one pissed me off and I wanted to fling it out the window. I put the whole mess down in the bottom of my brain and months later (after reading perhaps 30 other books), I saw it at Hasting's and bought the damn thing. I read the first 4 pages and said to myself 'Hell, this looks real familiar'. What a maroon. But I look forward to this crap being brought to a close. Please.

Posted by: EROWMER at June 26, 2012 01:29 PM (sIm3i)

173

I beleive that Jon is the son of Rhaegon and Lyanna. He will not die from the attempt on his life and there is the issue unaddressed on how can you ride a dragon if you can't control them....

The only way is to control the dragon is as a skinchanger or the horn. The only one who can survive the horn would be the priest. Thus Jon, Bran and the priest will control the dragons....how the plot gets there I don't know.

Just my take on the matter....

Posted by: Budahmon at June 26, 2012 01:55 PM (vDh+T)

174 Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is pretty much been hinted at as true. The actor who plays Theon Greyjoy, Alfie Allen, was interviewed and basically said that it was a "Luke Skywalker" situation. The main passage that people point to is Lyanna pleading with Ned in a "bloody bed" in his fever dream in GOT and the fact that he was most upset about Jon after being arrested because he needed to tell Jon something.

Posted by: kg1982 at June 26, 2012 05:01 PM (b0RUk)

175 Read Hyperion - fuck Game of Thrones

Posted by: The Shrike at June 26, 2012 06:12 PM (Vui52)

176 @155 - Rickon is, supposedly, on Skagos the island of the cannibals. Lord Manderly sent Davos Seaworth to go get him.

@167 -- I have always taken Cersei's story of her 'stillborn' babe to be the story she tells because, in reality, it was Robert's child and she killed it.

Posted by: Dodd at June 27, 2012 07:46 PM (7KDDM)

Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.

177kb generated in CPU 0.1414, elapsed 0.2725 seconds.
64 queries taking 0.2418 seconds, 304 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.