December 09, 2012

Guns and Hunting Thread (12-9-2012)
— andy

Costas

The big gun news last week surrounded Bob Costas' idiotic remarks on Sunday Night Football. Here are links to the HQ's related posts:

As far as I know, he hasn't opened his pie hole any more on this, but if he does, we'll be all over it.

Cooper's Commentaries

Thanks to moron 'kpayne' for this link to an archive of Cooper's Commentaries. Jeff Cooper was a huge figure in the "gun culture" that limousine liberal Bob Costas abhors. He was a retired Marine Lt. Col., inventor of the modern handgun combat technique, an NRA board member and editor-at-large for Guns & Ammo, where summaries of his commentaries appeared in a column called Cooper's Corner.

A taste, from November 2000:

I find it wearisome to hear people describe the attack on the USS Cole as one of "terrorism." We are free to use whatever words we wish to describe whatever we wish, but the attack on the Cole was not a piece of terrorism, it was an act of war. Terrorism may be described as homicidal coercion - an attempt to change national or political behavior by threat of force. The men who attacked the Cole were not attempting to coerce the United States, they were attempting simply to kill Americans - for theological, rather than political, reasons. It may be true that no recognized nation has declared war upon the United States, but Islam has officially described us as The Great Satan, and thus made us military adversaries in a Jihad or Holy War.

It is childish to discuss any attempt to discover who is responsible for this act of war. If there were such a man it would be the Sultan of Islam. Osama bin Laden does not hold that title at present, but clearly he would like to.

Common sense that we continue to ignore at our peril. If you haven't read Cooper's Commentaries, they're worth adding to your list. The historical references might be a little dated, but the themes are timeless.

Gun of the Week

Identify this rifle (answer appears at the end of the thread):

Marksmanship Award


Gun of the Week - Answer

That, of course, is the StG 44 in 7.92x33 Kurz. Developed by the Germans in WWII, the StG 44 was the world's first assault rifle (the real definition of the word, not the sloppy media definition applied to every Evil Black Rifle) and directly influences military firearms design to this day.

The inspiration for this week's selection comes from Connecticut where, unbelievably, someone attempted to hand over an StG 44 in one of those feel-good gun buyback programs. Fortunately the Hartford police officers running the program recognized it for what it was and returned it to the owner so they can sell it for something approaching its estimated $30,000 market value.

Note to self: Set up a gun buyback program.

Poll

Pupster from the Splitters sends this question.

I thought a topic for the gun thread might be M1A/M14 vs M16/M4 for a zombie apocalypse rifle. I am struggling with this choice. Main concerns are ease of maintenance and availability and price.

What say you, horde, on this eternal debate?


Tips

If there are topics you're interested in seeing in the gun thread, please send them to AoSHQGunThread at gmail. You can also send them to me on Twitter at @AndyM1911.

Piss off a liberal. Join: The National Rifle Association * Gun Owners of America * The National Shooting Sports Foundation * Your state's second amendment org.

Posted by: andy at 06:50 AM | Comments (161)
Post contains 688 words, total size 6 kb.

1

Deer season opened back up in Indiana yesterday. Closes first week of january. This state is eat up with deer.

Posted by: Cicero Kid. at December 09, 2012 06:55 AM (hq+RW)

2 I'm going to try to do these on Saturdays, but an unanticipated home construction project got a little out of hand yesterday.

Posted by: Andy at December 09, 2012 06:56 AM (OZPoa)

3 I'm thinking about a .44 mag Ruger semi-auto carbine for deer. Any one ever fire one? I think production ran from '63 to '06.

Posted by: Cicero Kid. at December 09, 2012 06:59 AM (hq+RW)

4 Went to a new gun store yesterday. It was loaded up with nothing but high quality black rifles and evil pistols that would make Bob Costas clutch his pearls and weep openly. It was a wonderland.

Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 07:00 AM (s/PhC)

5 Definitely a 12ga. You can do both shot and slug. Kill zombies and hunt for food with same gun.

Posted by: exsanguine at December 09, 2012 07:00 AM (O/2PH)

6 If you're in thick woods, that Ruger .44 mag carbine is a great choice.

Posted by: Andy at December 09, 2012 07:00 AM (OZPoa)

7 Peter King calls Costas critics "small minded gun nuts" http://goo.gl/0YOHd

Posted by: Jose/ningrim at December 09, 2012 07:00 AM (srIqv)

8 There is one organization that teaches gun safety, and the proper care and handling of firearms. That organization is the NRA. So, naturally, that's why I called them the "KKK".

Posted by: Jason Whitlock, Fucktard Emertius at December 09, 2012 07:00 AM (KZi9D)

9 Peter King is a moron and has always been a moron. Why does he have a job?

Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 07:02 AM (s/PhC)

10 I take that back, Peter King is an idiot, NOT a moron. He doesn't deserve that title.

Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 07:04 AM (s/PhC)

11 9 Peter King is a moron and has always been a moron. Why does he have a job? Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 11:02 AM (s/PhC) Beat me to it.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 07:05 AM (UlMbP)

12 The BATF is probably gonna be kicking that woman's door down over an NFA violation.  There's probably no paperwork on that 44.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 09, 2012 07:06 AM (2RJQo)

13 Deer season opened back up in Indiana yesterday. Closes first week of january. This state is eat up with deer.

Posted by: Cicero Kid. at December 09, 2012 10:55 AM (hq+RW)

I live in Northern NJ, in the 'burbs, and we have so many deer I could feed my family on just the deer that wander through my yard. And the numbers killed on the roads is unbelievable.

But hunting is evil.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 07:07 AM (GsoHv)

14 "What say you, horde, on this eternal debate?"

I say split the difference and buy an Armalite AR-10.

Posted by: mrp at December 09, 2012 07:07 AM (HjPtV)

15 If you want an STG44 but you don't want to come off of $30k, you can get a replica in .22. Check it out: http://tinyurl.com/aau9ec8

Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 07:07 AM (s/PhC)

16 The book thread just disappeared.  I guess the Mayans were right.

Posted by: countrydoc at December 09, 2012 07:09 AM (LpeHY)

17 Kind of ironic that sports casters are calling opinions not their own "small minded". Those guys ain't curing cancer for a day job.

Posted by: Salute at December 09, 2012 07:09 AM (wsPYX)

18 >"What say you, horde, on this eternal debate?"

The correct answer is: both

You can never have too many guns.

Posted by: DanInMN at December 09, 2012 07:10 AM (khf9A)

19 I voted 12 gauge. Not because I have an informed opinion, but because I had to vote to see results.

Posted by: fluffy at December 09, 2012 07:11 AM (z9HTb)

20 M4 for zombies. I can carry more ammo, it's lighter, 5.56 would do a number on a cranium and I am already proficient with it. Also, I already own 7 of them and I have a Surefire 556k suppressor for mine. The AR10 is too heavy and offers nothing that I need for zombies that I can't get with an M4. The 12 gauge is way too slow to reload, has limited ammo capacity and carrying spare ammo is problematic.

Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 07:11 AM (s/PhC)

21

 I think the primary advantage to shotgun is the multiple choice wrt types of shells, plus, it only takes about an hour -and a couple dozen shells- to offer a novice enough basic training to hit the broad side of a barn. (read: Cheaper than firing hundreds of rounds through a rifle to achieve a similar level of marksmanship.)

 As well, in most urban environments, and in many rural environments, a shotgun has all the range you need for most of your hunting or firefight scenarios.

 The other thing: A shotgun 'speaks with authority.' Always has. Always will.

 Yes, in any kind of conflict, you'll want a couple of marksmen to play 'overwatch' with a decent rifle...but a shotgun will work for most environments.

 Think about it this way: shotguns are generally cheaper than a good rifle. If you want to arm and train a company of minutemen in the present day and age, for either urban operations or rural 'shit and git' ops, you can arm 100 men/women w/shotguns or a few thousand dollars ...and have them trained in basic tactics and movements in a couple of weeks. In a few months, you'll have a small guerilla force that can't be lightly dismissed.

'Wolverines.'

Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at December 09, 2012 07:11 AM (WwR1j)

22 Posted by: fluffy at December 09, 2012 11:11 AM (z9HTb)

We needed a "Bacon" choice.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 07:12 AM (GsoHv)

23 10 I take that back, Peter King is an idiot, NOT a moron. He doesn't deserve that title. Posted by: Witchfinder at December 09, 2012 11:04 AM (s/PhC) Reading is fundamental. I missed it, to.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 07:12 AM (UlMbP)

24 I choose the shotgun in the poll but, I gota change that to the Lee-Enfield rifle. Dead on acurate, and simple to use. Morning to all morons.

Posted by: Picric at December 09, 2012 07:14 AM (jPA1h)

25 It's easy to call people 'gun nuts'. All you need is a self-righteous smugness and sneering condescension. And that works fine, right up to the part where someone breaks into your house at 3am to rob you so they can score some crack, and all you have to protect yourself and your family is your well-thought out anti-gun bias and a cellphone.

Posted by: Jones in CO at December 09, 2012 07:15 AM (8sCoq)

26 We needed a "Bacon" choice.


To draw the zombies in?

Posted by: fluffy at December 09, 2012 07:15 AM (z9HTb)

27 Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 11:12 AM (UlMbP)

We should amend the AOSHQ style guide.

Moron is us -- moron is them.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 07:16 AM (GsoHv)

28 Shotgun for close range. Any rifle in .223 or above for longer range.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 07:17 AM (doBIb)

29 Watched the movie'Downfall' the other day. That's the movie all the Hitler parodies originate from. Anyway, near the end of the movie, I noticed on of the German soldiers holding what looked like a STG 44, though it was hard to tell and partially blocked by the actors. later in the movie, they show several soldiers holding them and using them during the last defense of Berlin from the Soviets. It was pretty neat seeing me in a movie like that since they are so rare and only entered service right at the end of the war. It's a pretty good movie btw if you haven't seen it. It runs over 2.5 hours though. It's on Netflix.

Posted by: Catmman! at December 09, 2012 07:17 AM (C8XlI)

30 I started Niven / Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer". Hot Fudge Sundae comin' right up!

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 09, 2012 07:18 AM (QTHTd)

31 Jeff Cooper also started the Gunsite School in Arizona IIRC. That is a fantastic place to get your faith restored. You feel way under dressed if you aren't strolling around with something on your hip.

Posted by: Salute at December 09, 2012 07:18 AM (wsPYX)

32 To draw the zombies in?

Posted by: fluffy at December 09, 2012 11:15 AM (z9HTb)

It works pretty well on me too.

 

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 07:18 AM (GsoHv)

33 M4 is the military platform for an AR-15...is that right?

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 09, 2012 07:18 AM (85EaA)

34 Oh, not the book thread. I guess I'd better wait this out in the barrel

Posted by: boulder hobo at December 09, 2012 07:19 AM (QTHTd)

35 Have been kitting up myself extensively the past few months.  In trips to the local shops, it has been amazing how many new buyers there are.  And of those buyers?  3 out of 5 I've observed have been- women.  Buying their first pistols.  Not once in the last 5 trips to the shops have I not seen at least 3 purchasers therein getting 'briefed' on the points of Glock, S&W, Ruger, or Springfield.  Many are looking at LCP's and Glocks.  So far, the counter persons have been pretty thorough and fairly un-biased.  I keep telling them- spend a couple hours in the range first, THEN see what fits for her.

Ammo here in FL is getting more and more scarce.  You can get the low-qual stuff, but anything of decent reliability is tough.  And I think the shop people are played out- some are getting downright surely.  Not sure what you want?  NEXT!

I've been trying to locate 2 pistols with zero luck- 6" New Blackhawk by Ruger in the 9/357/38 convertible, and a Ruger 22/45 threaded.  Nearly impossible.  I might settle for a Vaquero, but even that is scarce.

I purchased two NcStar scabbards, one for my 870 tactical and the other for my 10/22 sport.   I had to go thru 3 vendors; NcStar is so backed up on orders no one can keep up.  2 orders were placed and accepted, both of those got canceled when the vendor couldn't fill the orders they got.

Yeah, it's busy out there

Posted by: Mr Wolf, Esq at December 09, 2012 07:19 AM (UIAT6)

36 Don't forget it will be on Tuesdae.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 09, 2012 07:20 AM (Sz+px)

37 Palmetto State Armory is still fucking with me after I cancelled my order. They still haven't refunded my money after a week. Wtf? Some people have been waiting 7 weeks for their order to be processed. Not shipped, but processed. No response on the phones and only a form response on email. Extremely poor customer service. Will not buy from them again.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 07:21 AM (doBIb)

38 Typical Liberal debate tactic: When the subject you actually want to criticize is : "Black Male Domestic Violence" or "The Continuing Infantilization of Black Males", or "Coddling Our Athletes in a Bubble" or "BabyMama Relationships"... but you can't possibly bring THAT up and not get fired... just keep zooming out until you get to "America's Gun Culture" and then fire away, so to speak. Cowards. No wonder they fear firearms.

Posted by: ChampionCapua at December 09, 2012 07:21 AM (KZi9D)

39 I can tell who the competent one is between Bamster and Michelle. Barry and Eric Holder have brought unprecedented success to the gun business, Michelle put Twinkie out of business. Draw your own conclusions.

Posted by: Salute at December 09, 2012 07:24 AM (wsPYX)

40 I always thought the original designation was MP-44, for "machine pistol". Hitler forbade development of the assault rifle, so the designers hid it from him by calling it a machine pistol.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 09, 2012 07:27 AM (tOkJB)

41

Don't forget it will be on Tuesdae.

========

What, the Hot Fudge Sundae?

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 09, 2012 07:28 AM (85EaA)

42 M4 is the military platform for an AR-15...is that right?

CAR-15, the shortened version

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 09, 2012 07:28 AM (2RJQo)

43 There are several weapons that are outstanding. Weapon choice for me depends on two things. The first is the mission and the enviroment. The second and most important to me would be your enemy. I will give a hypothetical. A certain leader decides he is not stepping down and calls in a certain azure colered helmet for defense. I would want to know what they are carrying. Ammo would be be scarce and when you take down a patrol or column, you would want to be able to collect ammo and it should be useful.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:29 AM (3Y7RV)

44 So if I'm gonna start arming up, what pistol would you guys recommend?

Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 07:29 AM (dKV5k)

45

The Sturmgewehr  44 is one of my favorite "Gee I wish I had an extra mill laying around to buy any and all the shit I wanted" guns.

Simply the coolest original idea coming out of the otherwise wholly evil Nazis (the snazzy uniforms a close second).  And no, I don't think the M-1 carbine was a real assault rifle.

And for an actual zombie situation, a 5.56 would be fine, since ammo capacity is premium and close range headshots are the order of the day.  For a real post-collapse situation, the M1A wins hands down for stopping power and distance.


Posted by: imp at December 09, 2012 07:30 AM (tcHgj)

46 44 So if I'm gonna start arming up, what pistol would you guys recommend? Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:29 AM (dKV5k) Kimber 1911.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:30 AM (3Y7RV)

47 37 Did you pay with a credit card? Contact the credit card provider and file against the charge and their 10% "restocking fee". Taking orders and charging for them immediately then taking an unacceptable amount of time to fill them and charging 10% for not filling them is fraud.

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at December 09, 2012 07:31 AM (BAnPT)

48 USS Diversity, exactly

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 09, 2012 07:31 AM (Sz+px)

49

I would want to know what they are carrying. Ammo would be be scarce and when you take down a patrol or column, you would want to be able to collect ammo and it should be useful.

 

9mm was  a standard a few years back, IIRC.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 09, 2012 07:31 AM (yiIja)

50 MG-42 would be nice.  Just almost impossible to keep the thing fed with ammo.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 09, 2012 07:32 AM (Sz+px)

51

44 So if I'm gonna start arming up, what pistol would you guys recommend?
Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:29 AM (dKV5k)

 

You can probably get a squirt gun past the MAAs.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 09, 2012 07:32 AM (85EaA)

52 #47, I'm calling my CC bank on Monday to reverse the charges.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 07:32 AM (doBIb)

53 So if I'm gonna start arming up, what pistol would you guys recommend?

Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:29 AM (dKV5k)

Longbow.

 

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 07:33 AM (GsoHv)

54 NFL player kills girlfriend, self with gun Bob Costas decries handguns, gun culture during a following NFL broadcast - - - - - - - - NFL player kills teammate in alcohol-induced car crash. Bob Costas decries alcohol, alcohol culture during a following NFL broadcast I might have made that second part up. Sorry.

Posted by: crisis du jour at December 09, 2012 07:33 AM (DFGPG)

55 My favorite rifle is a FN FAL

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:34 AM (3Y7RV)

56 CDR M, for vampires a Super Soaker filled with Holy Water.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 09, 2012 07:34 AM (Sz+px)

57 For deer my favorite is a Marlin 336 lever action in .35 Remington. My woods are brushy, with long shots a rarity and a neck shot with that heavy bullet puts them right down. I have a selection of deer guns to choose from, but usually end up with old reliable.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 09, 2012 07:34 AM (V6zkh)

58 CDR M. This is a Ginger-Maryann Question. But there is a reason that the 1911 in .45 ACP hasn't changed much in a century. Browning got a lot of things right with that gun. Others will tell you 9mm for equally good reasons. I decided why settle? Ginger and Maryann for me!

Posted by: Salute at December 09, 2012 07:35 AM (wsPYX)

59 So if I'm gonna start arming up, what pistol would you guys recommend? Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:29 AM (dKV5k) Longbow. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 11:33 AM (GsoHv) Yup. http://scoamf.us/longbow

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 09, 2012 07:35 AM (Rhie+)

60 Starting handgun? I would second OSP's Kimber 1911 (I have 3), or if you want all the goodness of .45 but more mag capacity, I would recommend the FN P45.

Posted by: AZ Hi Desert at December 09, 2012 07:35 AM (+nAra)

61 Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 09, 2012 11:34 AM (V6zkh)

I am completely ignorant of lever guns, but I have read about some peoples' safety concerns.

Any comments?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 07:36 AM (GsoHv)

62 M1911, The gun that was created to kill Muslims.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 07:36 AM (doBIb)

63
Kimbers are WAY overpriced. If you want a 1911 style .45 buy a Taurus.
If you want maximum capacity get a Springfield XD. If it's a first pistol buy a Rossi 461 revolver in .357. It will load any .38 ammo and still have magnum capability.

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at December 09, 2012 07:37 AM (BAnPT)

64 If you read the Amazon reviews for Lucifer's Hammer, you find out how the book is sooooo racist. But it remains in the top three of my favorite EOW books.

Posted by: USS Diversity at December 09, 2012 07:37 AM (85EaA)

65 Para Ordnance also makes 1911's with larger capacities.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 07:38 AM (doBIb)

66 I guess I missed the part where we were deciding its purpose...

I loved the M16... A2 version, of course.  It was tight, reliable, accurate as heck at long ranges.

I read recently how the Army very reluctantly adopted the AR15, and then mucked it up by arbitrarily changing things that made the M16 tremendously unreliable.  Got many people killed in Vietnam, it did. 

I honestly don't know the history of the A2, or how it came to be adopted by the military.  When I was in basic, guys complained about the 3 round burst, but that's because we didn't know squat. 

Posted by: BurtTC at December 09, 2012 07:38 AM (BeSEI)

67 Amirite? From Wiki: MP 43, MP 44, StG 44 Grenadiers operating in the area of Aachen, Germany in 1944 As work moved forward to incorporate this new firing system, development temporarily came to halt when Hitler suspended all new rifle programs due to administrative infighting within the Third Reich, ordered that more, newer submachine guns were to be built and strongly disagreed with the use of the new ammunition. To keep the MKb 42(H) alive, the Waffen Amt (Armament Office) re-designated it into the Maschinenpistole 43 (MP 43) and making a few improvements, billed as an upgrade to existing submachine guns. This deception was eventually discovered by Adolf Hitler who again had the program halted. In March 1943, he permitted it to recommence for evaluation purposes only. Running for six months until September 1943, the evaluation produced positive results and Hitler allowed the MP 43 program to continue and in order to make mass production possible. The first MP 43s were distributed to the Waffen-SS, and then in October 1943, some were especially issued to the 93rd Infantry Division on the Eastern Front. Production and distribution continued to different troops until April 1944, where Hitler ordered it re-designated MP 44 with adding minor updates after taking some interest in the weapon tests. In July 1944, at a meeting of the various army heads about the Eastern Front, when Hitler asked what they needed, a general exclaimed, "More of these new rifles!". This caused some confusion (Hitler's response is reputed to have been "What new rifle?"), but once Hitler was given a chance to see and test-fire the MP 44, he was impressed and gave it the title Sturmgewehr. Seeing the possibility of a propaganda gain, the rifle was again renamed as the StG 44, to highlight the new class of weapon it represented, translated "Storm (Assault) rifle, model 1944", thereby introducing the term.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 09, 2012 07:39 AM (tOkJB)

68 Kimbers are WAY overpriced. If you want a 1911 style .45 buy a Taurus. Yeah, a little. But hey, whats your life worth?

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:39 AM (3Y7RV)

69 27 Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 11:12 AM (UlMbP) We should amend the AOSHQ style guide. Moron is us -- moron is them. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 09, 2012 11:16 AM (GsoHv) There ya go.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 07:40 AM (UlMbP)

70 9mm ammo is ubiquitous world wide.  It will be getting manufactured somewhere on the planet before/during/after the collapse.

Posted by: @PurpAv at December 09, 2012 07:40 AM (2RJQo)

71 54 -

I was thinking the same thing when I read that this morning. 


Posted by: BurtTC at December 09, 2012 07:41 AM (BeSEI)

72 Got to get ready to go to game.  Gun Show yesterday in CLT?  700 people in line a 9:30 to get in. I when home.


Obama, the best gun salesman evah!

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at December 09, 2012 07:41 AM (wR+pz)

73 62 M1911, The gun that was created to kill Muslims. Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 11:36 AM (doBIb) Nah -- that was the Puckle Gun. It even fired square bullets to be used on muslims.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 09, 2012 07:42 AM (tOkJB)

74 Remember, get your online orders in before the new Internet taxes kick in.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 07:42 AM (doBIb)

75 Name that gun: Kraut MP-44

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 09, 2012 07:42 AM (XkWWK)

76 I like the FAL but having had to use one I am not a fan. They are too long by half.
My favorite rifle ever is the M1 Garand. For cost effectiveness the Mini-14 is amazingly accurate and easy to maintain. I like the 6.8 spc

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at December 09, 2012 07:43 AM (BAnPT)

77 I wish O'Reilly had asked a followup  to his question about whether Costas would rather be armed or not during the Colorado theater killing (Costas said he would rather not):

"OK. Suppose you're in Afghanistan and you come under attack by Taliban fighters in an area that supposedly was pacified.  Would you want to be armed, or not?"

Or:   "Suppose you're in Florida and you come under attack by a guy repeatedly punching you in the face and slamming your head onto the pavement.  Would you want to be armed, or not?"

Posted by: Jim Sonweed at December 09, 2012 07:45 AM (riIMi)

78 Baby Desert Eagle II, 9mm, Steel, Full Size, 15 round BE9915R “Baby” Desert Eagle® II, 9mm, Full Size, Steel Frame MSRP: $630.00 Black with rail, 4.52” barrel, 15 round

Posted by: ChampionCapua at December 09, 2012 07:46 AM (KZi9D)

79 I like the FAL but having had to use one I am not a fan. They are too long by half. My favorite rifle ever is the M1 Garand. For cost effectiveness the Mini-14 is amazingly accurate and easy to maintain. I like the 6.8 spc Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at December 09, 2012 11:43 AM (BAnPT) You have a point, however the 17.2 inch barrel is an improvement over the 21 inch.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:46 AM (3Y7RV)

80 My Dad is giving me his old Army 1911 so I'm good there. I'm looking at 9mm ones now. After I get that pistol, I'll be looking at a shotgun and a rifle.

Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 07:46 AM (dKV5k)

81 3 I'm thinking about a .44 mag Ruger semi-auto carbine for deer. Any one everfire one? I think production ran from '63 to '06. Posted by: Cicero Kid. at December 09, 2012 10:59 AM (hq+RW) I owned one...heavy sob....iif your shote are>75 yds. or so, it's ok.

Posted by: BignJames at December 09, 2012 07:46 AM (Sg0G/)

82 Only two things I can think of that would affect the safety of a well maintained lever action. Don't use Spitzer bulllets (pointy ones) in a tubular magazine and exercise care while decocking the half cock safety. Muzzle in a safe grounded direction. They are simple, rugged and a joy to carry otherwise, and excellent brush guns.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 09, 2012 07:46 AM (V6zkh)

83 What about a Sig P226 Mk 25?

Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 07:47 AM (dKV5k)

84

One would, in a hypothetical situation,  also take the  weapons   as well as the ammo.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at December 09, 2012 07:47 AM (yiIja)

85 Desert Eagle 1911 C Model DE1911C .45 ACP “C” Pistol, 4.33-Inch Barrel, Black MSRP: $853.00

Posted by: ChampionCapua at December 09, 2012 07:47 AM (KZi9D)

86 My Dad is giving me his old Army 1911 so I'm good there. I'm looking at 9mm ones now. After I get that pistol, I'll be looking at a shotgun and a rifle. Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:46 AM (dKV5k) My favorite 9mm is a S&W 39-2.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:47 AM (3Y7RV)

87 I bought the wife a SIG .380, black. She hates it cause the slide is too hard to pull back. It's had about 50 rounds through it. I'd sell it if anyone is interested.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:49 AM (3Y7RV)

88 Shoot a 12 gauge 200 rounds, offhand. Shoot an M1A (or a .308 Garand) 200 rounds, offhand. Then shoot an AR, 200 rounds, offhand. AKs are pretty nifty too, might want to include those. Besides, if an AK ever breaks, parts and ammo are everywhere - like ARs.



Posted by: Oh ammo tree, oh ammo tree! at December 09, 2012 07:49 AM (86/8G)

89 What about a Sig P226 Mk 25? Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:47 AM (dKV5k) I'm the biggest SIG fan on the planet.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet, Wonders what Dagny thinks at December 09, 2012 07:49 AM (3Y7RV)

90 I read recently how the Army very reluctantly adopted the AR15, and then mucked it up by arbitrarily changing things that made the M16 tremendously unreliable. Got many people killed in Vietnam, it did. The initial fielding of the M-16 was to Special Forces types who had a great many years experience and USAF Security. Cleaning your weapon is like breathing to SF types, you just do it. They liked it. Here a quote on the initial fielding errors made with the 16. During immediately following years, a number of negative reports apears from Vietnam. M16A1 rifles, issued to US troops in the Vietnam, severely jammed in combat, resulting in numerous casualties. There were some causes for malfunction. First of all, during the introduction of the new rifle and its ammunition into the service, US Army replaced originally specified Dupont IMR powder with standard ball powder, used in 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. The ball powder produced much more fouling, that quickly jammed the actions of the M16 unless the gun was cleared well and often. It also had different pressure curve, resulting in increased stress on operating parts of the gun. This pitifully combined with the fact that the initial M16 rifles were promoted by the Colt as "low maintenance", so, for the sake of economy, no cleaning supplies were procured for new M16 rifles, and no weapon care training was conducted fro the troops. As a result, soldiers did not knew how to clean their rifles, and had no provisions for cleaning, and things soon turned bad. Another cost-saving measure on the part of the Army was to give up with cromium plation of the barrel bore and bolt group, which made these parts much more sensitive to corrosion and rust that originally designed. After several dramatic reports in US press and Congressional investigation of the troubles, several actions were taken to remedy the problems. The 5.56mm ammunition was now loaded using different powders that produce much less residue in the gun action. The barrel, chamber and bolt of the rifles were chrome-lined to improve corrosion resistance. Cleaning kits were procured and issued to troops, and a special training programs were developed and conducted ever since. Earliest cleaning kits could be carried separate from rifle only, but since circa 1970 all M16A1 rifles were manufactured with the containment cavity in the buttstock, that held the cleaning kit. At the same time (circa 1970) the new 30 rounds magazines were introduced into service instead of the original 20 rounds ones, to equal Soviet and Chinese AK-47 assault rifles, which had 30-rounds magazines from the very beginning.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 07:50 AM (UlMbP)

91 For a .38 spl you can't beat the S&W Combat Masterpiece. Accurate, dependable, can handle hot reloads and doubles as a club.

Posted by: Ed Anger at December 09, 2012 07:51 AM (tOkJB)

92 I honestly don't know the history of the A2, or how it came to be adopted by the military. When I was in basic, guys complained about the 3 round burst, but that's because we didn't know squat. Posted by: BurtTC at December 09, 2012 11:38 AM (BeSEI) During my Army service in the late 80s, we started with the A1s and transitioned to the A2s. There's a definite difference between them. A1s are feather-light, extremely reliable even with blanks and simple. The A2s are heavier, more accurate, and they recoil like a piston, straight back. But they were hellaciously unreliable with blanks when we were doing MILES training in the woods, so essentially you were training with a bolt action rifle. Run the gun wet or dry, they still had problems with blanks (hey, peacetime Army). As I recall, the Army Marksmanship Unit had a lot of influence on the A2, but they were trying to get the A2 set up for marksmanship competitions rather than combat, hence the more complex rear sight (which NO ONE either understood or used), and the longer stock (which was extremely unsuitable for use with body armor). The heavier barrel and improved A2 flash hider were welcome additions however.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 09, 2012 07:51 AM (Rhie+)

93 37 Palmetto State Armory is still fucking with me after I cancelled my order.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 11:21 AM (doBIb)

I don't know why they haven't learned from their past mistakes regarding acceptance of far more orders than can be processed in a reasonable amount of time.  I lucked out a couple of years ago when I ordered a PSA 14.7" midlength rifle during a sale and received it promptly.  Then again, the midlengths get no love; everyone wants the stupid looking 16" carbines.  I really, really dig the rifle, BTW.

But, yeah, the way PSA is treating you is absolute bullshit and I wouldn't blame you for never patronizing them again.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke's solid gold diaphragm at December 09, 2012 07:54 AM (9SwFX)

94 IIRC, while the Army was the executive agent on the M16A2, the Marines also had a ton of input into it. The improved sights and heavier barrel were very much features the Marines insisted on.

I carried both the A1 and the A2 (and for a brief time at OSUT, the A0!) and like most, vastly prefer the A2.

But the FN manufactured A2s of the early 90s were awful. We had a ton of malfunctions with them. Never had any problems with Colt guns, except problems directly related to the magazines.

Posted by: xbradtc at December 09, 2012 07:57 AM (O0L6N)

95 For zombies, I have always thought .22 was the right caliber. All that extra power is wasted on a rotting zombie, after all, when it is a head shot that is needed. Cheap ammo and you can easily carry 1,000 rounds. Effective to 50-70 yards. Of course, for a human apocalypse I would definitely go with a .308/7.62 semi-auto carbine. Good for both people and large game.

Posted by: iconoclast at December 09, 2012 07:58 AM (4Hk6T)

96 Now I get to pick rifle and shotguns with your money as well? Ginger and Maryann are making room in bed for all three (or 6?) of Charlie's angels! Within North America you can't go wrong with 7mm remington magnum. Widely available ammunition with punch enough for everything you can shoot here at the cost of only a little more recoil. You can even minimize that difference with lower weight bullets and loads depending on what you are shooting. Tikka rifles are mid priced Finnish made, extremely accurate reliable guns. If you are buying a gun for hunting a very good choice. If for recreational use/home defense this crowd will tell you .223 AR 15.

Posted by: Salute at December 09, 2012 08:00 AM (wsPYX)

97 I currently have a Kahr PM9. Nice, small CC gun. More on the way, including the Baby Desert Eagle 9mm.

Posted by: ChampionCapua at December 09, 2012 08:00 AM (KZi9D)

98 63
Kimbers are WAY overpriced. If you want a 1911 style .45 buy a Taurus.
If you want maximum capacity get a Springfield XD.

Posted by: Dept. of Accuracy Dept. at December 09, 2012 11:37 AM (BAnPT)


I've read and have been told first-hand too many stories of Taurus semi-autos malfunctioning and requiring service.  I'd rather not be in the position of my life depending upon one.  Their revolvers, on the other hand, are a different story.

Posted by: Sandra Fluke's solid gold diaphragm at December 09, 2012 08:02 AM (9SwFX)

99 CDR, I'd luuuuuuurrrrrve me a WW2 Remington Rand 1911, but if your Pop's got a Singer 1911.......ohhhhhh buddy. Serious bucks, even if its trashed, as Singer made less than 1k of them.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 09, 2012 08:05 AM (Rhie+)

100 When I was in ROTC during a field training excercise at Ft Bragg, someone got an XM177.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 08:05 AM (doBIb)

101 I've read and have been told first-hand too many stories of Taurus semi-autos malfunctioning and requiring service. I'd rather not be in the position of my life depending upon one. Their revolvers, on the other hand, are a different story. Posted by: Sandra Fluke's solid gold diaphragm at December 09, 2012 12:02 PM (9SwFX) I've never owned one, but a few buddies have. Primarily, due to cost. They said the same thing. Not big fans.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at December 09, 2012 08:06 AM (UlMbP)

102 The last 3 Kimber's I've fired seemed to have one common problem- under-sprung uppers. While they were smooth as butter in action, each shot sent a 'shock' or ping thru my hand and wrist, like the action was slamming metal-on-metal. I was not impressed with that feel. Imagine a hammer on an anvil- it was akin to that. Plus, they are expensive. For me, the Rock Island Arms 1911 can't be beat for the price, if you want a combat 1911. Yeah, its as basic as it gets, but it's a true war hammer. And it can easily be upgraded for cheap. Another good thing: Like getting a Colt M4, the RIA 1911 uses the exact machining of the military versions; parts can be interchanged without issue. I doubt you're going to be able to interchange a Taurus upper with a Sig lower in 1911. With the RIA, you are supposed to be able to take a Mil-Spec 1911 part and drop it in. Same with my Colt 5.56- I like keeping 'options' open.

Posted by: Mr. Wolf, non-Esq at December 09, 2012 08:11 AM (Irzn6)

103 What about a Sig P226 Mk 25?
Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 11:47 AM (dKV5k)

Great gun.  Check out the 229s also.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at December 09, 2012 08:13 AM (0Db2g)

104 I own both, a full length flat- topped AR-15 with a 1.5-4x scope, and a standard M1a with a 3-9x scope and cheek riser. The M1a will reliably put down anything at almost any conceivable range with one shot. The same cannot be said for the AR-15, and definitely not a shotgun. Hell, I would consider taking a 30-30 lever gun over the AR, for post apoc reliability. If I knew I was limited to close range, I'd take the Saiga 20 gauge auto loader. It's well laid out in the book Blackhawk Down how ineffective the M16 was at stopping the drugged out Somalis, the closest thing to a "zombie" attack. SFC Shughart was much more effective with his scoped M14. The military is currently reissuing M14s as fast as they can as EBRs due to the longer ranges encountered in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Captain Atom at December 09, 2012 08:14 AM (06G7S)

105 ITC, I'll have to ask my Dad what 1911 he has. I know he's taken very good cared of it.

Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 08:17 AM (dKV5k)

106 CDR M Whatever you buy make sure you leave room in the budget for lots of ammo to gain and maintain proficiency. A handgun range day can easily burn a couple hundred rounds. Rifles and shotguns beat you up a little more so you won't shoot as many rounds but still need plenty of ammo for each. Shotgun of choice is very mission dependent. If for target and bird hunting a classic over under or side by side is a fun. Lots of very good semi autos as well. If for home defense the collective brain trust here thinks Mossberg or Remington pump with a short barrel. My son the gun nut (he is nuts about guns and shooting, not the Peter King iteration) is spending my money the way I am spending yours. He says Bennelli M4. Just cause it's cool. So is a flamethrower

Posted by: Salute at December 09, 2012 08:19 AM (wsPYX)

107
  I will stay with my 1911 and my M-14.  Both are well tested, simple as a rock and just as tough.

  The '14 will eat the Russian steel case ammo with no problem, groups are slightly looser, but well within requirements. Even cleaning is simplified with the use of some carb cleaner in the spray can.  For lube, I've found spray silicon to be superior to oil, since it's dry, thus attracting little or no dirt.

Posted by: irongrampa at December 09, 2012 08:21 AM (SAMxH)

108 Looking at home defense for the shotgun and heard the same thing inre the Mossberg or Remington. It's gonna be fun hitting the range to test everything. Haven't been on the range in 5 years.

Posted by: CDR M at December 09, 2012 08:22 AM (dKV5k)

109 Let me speak for a majority of ge self-respecting, non-Tactical Tommy side of the evil gun culture: ENOUGH WITH THE F**KING ZOMBIES ALREADY it started out as an all-inclusive way to prepare for SHTF scenarios....but now it's just stupid. Hornady selling zombie max ammo (when all it is is a Vmax bullet dyed green for 2 DOLLARS A BOX MORE) along with every other company making shitty zombie-themed guns....God, just stop already. And Andy, you should pick a real stinker of a "Name the Gun" next week--like a Frommer Stop or Browning Old Model. Just for kicks.

Posted by: Greatbeefalo at December 09, 2012 08:23 AM (H/irV)

110 Agree with MRP. AR-10, carbine length, collapsible stock. 7.62 NATO reach out and touch someone. Or someone dead. BRAINS!

Posted by: Fox2! at December 09, 2012 08:24 AM (1Qpmy)

111 But zombies describe the FSA to a T.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 08:25 AM (doBIb)

112 CDR M.  If you go for the Renington 870, you might want to get 870 Police internals, maybe a Timney trigger.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at December 09, 2012 08:26 AM (0Db2g)

113 I haven't bought a pistol in years. I already have 4. All in 45acp.
I never diversify.

Posted by: navybrat at December 09, 2012 08:27 AM (Ty7ja)

114 12 Guage? I hope you have some good loot that i can pilfer.

Posted by: RWC at December 09, 2012 08:27 AM (sqp6o)

115 Timney trigger on an 870? What, for Camp Perry? The only thing that might go wrong on the new 870 is a majority of the fire control group is made of plastic (the housing, at least). The trigger is still dead simple.

Posted by: Greatbeefalo at December 09, 2012 08:28 AM (ev+11)

116 You can buy two Taurus PT1911s for the price of one Kimber, at least here where i live. Academy Sports sells them for $586. Two guns for the price of one. The PT1911 has been out for six years now, the bugs that came with the first gen guns are gone. It is a reliable guns and a whole lot of gun for the price. Snobbishness aside, if you have the money, get what you want. Kimber is a great gun! But if you're budget conscious, you can't beat Taurus.

Posted by: Catmman! at December 09, 2012 08:29 AM (C8XlI)

117 Anybody have anything to say about SKS?

Posted by: alo89 at December 09, 2012 08:31 AM (IacRz)

118 MIM vs. forged, plus plastic as you say.  Just comparing a Police 870 with an Express, you can see the differences, also in the way the parts are finished.  Much rougher on the Express.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at December 09, 2012 08:32 AM (0Db2g)

119 111 But zombies describe the FSA to a T. Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 12:25 PM (doBIb) And they're not slow moving Romero zombies. http://tinyurl.com/a2nxecx

Posted by: RWC at December 09, 2012 08:33 AM (sqp6o)

120 Right on, skook. If anything you could always pick up an old Wingmaster FCG and swap it out. The 870 is a great weapon, assuming you like the ergonomics. The only major failing I've ever seen is double feeds, but the revised shell lifters fixed that fairly well.

Posted by: Greatbeefalo at December 09, 2012 08:38 AM (H/irV)

121 If I remember the Express 870 right, it has an 'extension' on the back of the forepiece. That is why most people leave the Express on the shelf; that 'extension' on the back kicks into the trigger housing, and can cover the lock release. If your finger happens to be over that lock release when you rack it, you'll pinch your finger/hand pretty hard. More than one person has regretted the Express for that reason. Maybe Rem can fix this......

Posted by: Mr. Wolf, non-Esq at December 09, 2012 08:38 AM (Irzn6)

122 http://tinyurl.com/a2nxecx Wow. I thought that was the trailer for World War Z!

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 08:39 AM (doBIb)

123 exsanguine:  If the zombies are hobo-zombies, you really are killing Zs and hunting for food at the same time.

Just make sure the zombies are kinda fresh.

Posted by: Kristophr at December 09, 2012 08:41 AM (wYVte)

124

I went to the Sig Sauer academy for a couple of classes to learn to shoot.  I was a good experience.  Bought a P229 on the way out.

Highly recommend it to someone who wants to learn to shoot and get comfortable with it.  I knew nothing. Took handgun 101 and 102.  Shot suprisingly well with the 229 - E2 grip for smaller hands.  It has a fairly light recoil in 9mm because the gun is not overly light. The weight absorbs the snap of recoil.

I never shot before, and was outshooting people with a more experience and holding my own against people who had shot for 20 years.  they are on the internet, easy to schedule class.

Posted by: simpleton at December 09, 2012 08:42 AM (za3QZ)

125 OT On Hot Air, TimmyG says they'll just pretend not to collect taxes from the middle class if rates go up.

Posted by: EC at December 09, 2012 08:42 AM (doBIb)

126 I propose naming any bullet larger than a copper bb a "school-penetrating bullet".

Posted by: Costas at December 09, 2012 08:44 AM (2t6Gz)

127 Well, the only reason I got an Express is because I'm a lefty and the only lefty model Remington makes is the Express.  So I went to Chinamart and got one for $275 or so.  Then I decided it might be a good gun to take for fishing / camping in Alaska.  So a Wilson mag extension, Police internals, synthetic stock.  Then I sent the thing off to Robar to be NP3'd.  You can see where this is going.  Oh yeah, and a Surefire forend.

Posted by: Skookumchuk at December 09, 2012 08:45 AM (0Db2g)

128

I like my SA 1911A1 GI because it's just like the ones I carried back when the US military was serious about pistols.  No bells and whistles, but that's exactly what I want.

 

I also have a Glock 21, in .45 ACP, and it's solid, reliable, and boring, as are all Glocks.  But it's hard to gripe about having 13 rounds of .45.  Only possible issue is that it's a handful - if you have medium to small hands it's going to be a real challenge.  The single stack 1911's fit nearly anybody's hands very comfortably.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 09, 2012 08:48 AM (HoGA+)

129 Assuming this is THE zombie apocalypse, I'll take my Ruger 10/22 with the archangel kit I've installed.  I can carry 5,000 rounds and still have room for food in my pack.

Light and handy.  When all you need to do is scramble a few zombie brains...this is it.  Plus there is that attachment on the end for more "social" type of work!

http://tinyurl.com/bzfpy4j

Posted by: Tocquevillian at December 09, 2012 08:51 AM (iuY0Y)

130 It was also known as the Sturmgewehr 44.

As in storm rifle or assault rifle.  This was the first time ever that
a selective fire assault rifle appeared in an intermediate caliber.
The problem with bolt action or semiautomatic rifles with high
powered rifle rounds is that they kick like a mule.

In full auto, these calibers would be uncontrollable.  This is why we
went from the M14 to the M16.  Even the M60 (In .30 would be
impossible to shoot offhand without a complex recoil buffer.


Posted by: Leonard Jones at December 09, 2012 08:56 AM (HpPZI)

131

On the p229 sig, actually a lot of the sigs, you can get barrels and slides that you can change out to use on your gun, that will fire 22 or .40. or 9mm. You can practice with different calibers, and when the SHTF you can use one gun to shoot different ammo just by changing the config.   Its a lot cheaper to practice with 22 than 40 cal. 9 mm is pretty easy to find and not as snappy as 40.

The elite 229 comes with a short reset trigger. The follow up shot is super fast, and trigger squeeze like a sniper rifle.

again highly recommend sig sauer academy if you have never shot before and want to learn. This is not a paid endorsement. I just went there last month.

Posted by: simpleton at December 09, 2012 08:57 AM (za3QZ)

132 Those are wimp rifles. THIS is the one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16%22/50_caliber_Mark_7_gun

Posted by: George LeS at December 09, 2012 08:59 AM (C4s3i)

133

129, I put my Mini 14 in a spiffy ATI stock, with a folding, adjustable stock, rails all over, pistol grip, and a red dot sight.  After a while I asked myself "Why?  I already have a couple 'real' tactical rifles in 5.56."  So I put it back in the factory stock with a scope and like it much better.

 

So for zombies, Mad Max looters, or the metrosexual pansies fleeing the cites ahead of either, I have a Robinson XCR and an FNH FS2000, both with Aimpoint sights.  The Mini 14's just for fun shooting.  And it is a lot of fun.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 09, 2012 09:00 AM (HoGA+)

134 Bob Costas got what he wanted.  His name and what he said all over the internet.  If anyone forgot he existed before, they know better now.  There is a reason why these people make these asinine statements.  It gets their name before the public.  There is no such thing as bad publicity

Posted by: BarbaraS at December 09, 2012 09:03 AM (fPChK)

135 Based on the stated criteria, a simple .22 might be best. Simple, cheap, bullets are very plentiful, and if you're just going for headshots, more than sufficient firepower. Now, if we're looking at "fast" zombies, headshots are tough, so I'd go for a semi-auto 12 gauge with a recoil reducing stock. Plenty of power to shred bodies and knock things down, buckshot gives a bit of spreadfor margin of error if headshots are required. Most shotguns are reliable, easy to maintain, and ammo is again plentiful. In facr, because of trap and skeet, you can find shotgun ammo in a lot of placces that don't carry any other type of bullets, which is a bonus when scrounging.

Posted by: Grimaldi at December 09, 2012 09:07 AM (fPnlz)

136 So many threads here. Where do I start? 1. If anyone hears of someone turning in their Sturmgewehr, have them call me. I'll trade them half of my collection so they can feel even better about themselves. 2. M14 first, shotgun next. I want anything I hit to stay stopped. 3. The Sig P 226 is a beautiful weapon, but the 357 Sig ammunition is expensive. Pretty much any well made 1911 in .45ACP will give you great service. (Sorry Taurus) IMHO

Posted by: Yesiamapirate at December 09, 2012 09:10 AM (noUEa)

137 To an earlier question - which pistol (or any other weapon for that matter)? Go to a range...even here in CA (help me), the shooters are friendly and will talk your ear off about the pros and cons of just about everything. Try and then buy. Lots of ranges rent too. And when buying ammunition - buy in bulk...several calibers getting scarce out there. And here, .38/.357-Benelli 12 ga-Mini-14. And a question: the -14 has iron sights and I'm pretty good out to ~100m...but I'd like a scope mostly because the damned trifocals make focusing/aiming tough...figure I'd only have to focus on the scope face? Any ideas for a relatively inexpensive, not terribly long-range scope? Thanks from this CA moron.

Posted by: Whiskey_Joe at December 09, 2012 09:19 AM (RIm0W)

138 Hah, tied at 32% with shotgun moving up at 30%.

Scatterguns are ALWAYS intimidating. If you have a pump, they're even intimidating in the DARK.

*clack clack* "who goes there?"

is guaranteed to send dribbles of urine down any miscreants leg just before they hightail it.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger (aka Ol' 3 tooth) at December 09, 2012 09:22 AM (3E2th)

139

138, I have three shotguns, none of which are typical TEOTWAWKI weapons.  One is a Marlin lever action in .410, which I didn't need but coulodn't pass up, partly because it makes a good mate to my 1895G in .45/70.  The other two are Stoeger break action guns in 12 ga., one Coach Gun, the other a Cougar Outback.

 

My favorite is the Coach Gun because I can't pick it up without saying "All right, you primitive screwheads, listen up..."  That easily compensates for the lack of a pump action "clack-clack."

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 09, 2012 09:29 AM (HoGA+)

140 There's been a pattern developing here. After Irongrampa speaks, there really isn't any reason to go on arguing. Details, accessories, yeah sure, always room for comment. But basically, the argument is over.

Nice for the thread that he doesn't weigh in too early, or go on and on about every little thing. Gives the rest of us something to squabble over.

Here's to ya, gramps.

Posted by: comatus at December 09, 2012 09:30 AM (qaVK+)

141

One thing to which I object re: the Costas thing is his use of the word "artillery" as a shorthand perjorative encompassing many or all guns depending on which celbrity youre talking to.

Its lazy and dishonest. A good faith participant in the 2nd amendment debate (which I believe Costas is not), needs to know better than to pull high-school level crap like this and expect no one to notice or take exception.

Posted by: MikeD at December 09, 2012 09:38 AM (p8QOg)

142 >44 So if I'm gonna start arming up, what pistol would you guys recommend?

Since you have the .45 covered, there are a lot of 9mm options for you.

Springfield, Ruger, Glock and HK all make great guns so you can't go wrong.

I looked at all of them and ended up going with the new Walther PPQ 9mm.  Its basically a striker fired double stack like a Glock, but it has a really sweet trigger stock.  I've been shooting it for about 6 months now without cleaning it.  That's probably 2000 rounds (non-corrosive ammo of course.)  It has yet to fail to go "bang" when I pull the trigger.  I normally clean my guns every time, but I wanted to verify that it was as reliable as a Glock. So far, it is.

Anyway, you can't go wrong with any of the major manufacturers.  Just shoot a bunch of them at a rental range and see what fits your hand the best.  You'll notice that some pistols will aim more naturally for you than others based on the size and shape of your hand.

Posted by: DanInMN at December 09, 2012 09:42 AM (khf9A)

143 Anybody have anything to say about SKS?

Posted by: alo89 at December 09, 2012 12:31 PM (IacRz)


-----------------------------


Got a Yugo. It's a peach. Actual wood and blued steel, looks and feels like a by-God rifle, prefer it to the AK. The ten-round integral mag loads plenty fast with strippers, and unlike the AK, the safety is in a sensible place and the bolt holds open after the last shot.


I put a Williams peep on it, and with the insert removed, it leaves a ghost ring that lines up almost exactly with the front hood.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at December 09, 2012 09:46 AM (celt+)

144 .223 is a nice round, .308 is a canon

Posted by: Shirley at December 09, 2012 09:48 AM (akH9S)

145 My latest me-want is a S&W Model 586 .357 from their Classics line. Then I'll replace the adjustable sight with a Cylinder & Slide fixed.

Or I could get phenomenally lucky and find an old 581 in a gun shop. Either way.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at December 09, 2012 09:50 AM (celt+)

146 CDR-M, if you've already got an automatic covered with Dad's .45 1911, why not a .357 wheelgun? Ruger's GP100 is robust and sensibly priced, and you can shoot +P .38s.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at December 09, 2012 09:52 AM (celt+)

147 I used to go to machine gun shoots in PA. I fired a lot of cool stuff there. My frigging christmas list would be stooooopid long.

Posted by: Berserker at December 09, 2012 09:57 AM (FMbng)

148 I love my Kimber Ultra CDP II in .45 http://tinyurl.com/bbekocy

Posted by: Dave in Texas at December 09, 2012 10:00 AM (pUqSw)

149

One of Stephen Hunter's earlier books (we need a book thread on him and the Swagger Clan) was "The Master Sniper"  -- starring the StG44 with an early infrared night scope.  Great read!

As for the SHTF debate, I'm partial to my SOCOM 16 with a scout scope on the rail.  Only thing is, it's definitely a day time rifle -- the muzzle brake is great for reducing recoil, but it's like a flash/bang grenade going off:  tremendous flash and noise like a 105 howitzer.

For retro goodness, my Model 1897 Winchester trench gun with heat shield and lug for the M1917 bayonet.  And no, it's not for sale!!

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at December 09, 2012 10:06 AM (Pjq2D)

150 I was mentioned on the Internet! Am famous! Seriously, reading Cooper in the late 90s and on through to the end was like a masters program in weapons theory and practice. Second only to range time in personal improvement.

Posted by: kpayne (was nx99) at December 09, 2012 10:21 AM (ZzUyd)

151 No flamethrower option?

Posted by: Jean at December 09, 2012 10:21 AM (bZKG0)

152

Rem 870, M1 Garand, Colt 1911 .45.

 

The dream team!

Posted by: knob at December 09, 2012 10:24 AM (H1bc7)

153 @43. I suspect that in the situation you described, you would end up taking the enemy weapons along with the ammo.  What you start out the conflict with would have to be enough to get you to the point where you've stockpiled enough of your looted weapons and ammo to replace what you started with.

Posted by: Wendel Fertig at December 09, 2012 10:36 AM (blkVM)

154 @90.  My dad was in Vietnam in 66 in an Intel unit.  He was attached to the 101st, and went over with an M-14.  He spent a lot of time out at Special Forces camps (they would borrow their Nung mercenaries and Montagnard troops for field operations).  This is where he first saw the M-16 up close (it was actually a Colt Commando/CAR-15).  The SF guys had to write home and ask for cleaning kits to be sent to them, since the Army believed that they did not need to be cleaned.

My dad ended up getting one of the CAR-15s, and always carried an M-3 Grease Gun as a back up weapon due to concerns about it.

Posted by: Wendel Fertig at December 09, 2012 10:46 AM (blkVM)

155

Link in nic for an xkcd  "What-if" about the possibility of making a jetpack out of machine guns. I know the thread's probably dead, but figured it was too topical to pass up.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, still a Hobbit at December 09, 2012 11:21 AM (wbeNt)

156 Other....give me the AK I hated the 16. It was a pile of poop in my day. Jamaholic. Now the AK - treat it like a wife beater treats a woman and she still loves you. The AK round kills not wounds.

Posted by: ALL_IS_LOST at December 09, 2012 01:26 PM (T/L2Z)

157 82 Don't use Spitzer bulllets (pointy ones) in a tubular magazine Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 09, 2012 11:46 AM (V6zkh) LEVERevolution! http://tinyurl.com/akm8esn (Hornady.com)

Posted by: Too late for finals at December 09, 2012 01:48 PM (BgIBZ)

158 Definitely go to a range and try out a variety of pistols.  My wife started with a .380 SIG went through a variety of 9 mm and fell in love with a 1911 .45.  My daughter tried a bunch but once she fired a SIG 228 she said that was it, the gun just fit.  Sadly, they don't make 228s any more so I'll have to find a used one for sale.

If you are not really into guns but just want a good one that will work, look for a police trade in .38 revolver.  A model 10 with fixed sights will be just fine and you can find some of them with really phenomenally smooth double action triggers.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at December 09, 2012 02:13 PM (dGtaD)

159 Best post I read today: "Remember, if it's worth shooting once -- it's worth shooting twice."  You know, just to be sure.

Posted by: Capt. Backfire at December 09, 2012 05:11 PM (mkb9H)

160 Remington 870 is a good , simple reliable tool. I have killed 5 snakes with it. My wife laughs and says " when you need to read something, you get out your glasses and take a long time, but when a snake comes, you grab that Remington shotgun and sever its head quickly. How can a guy that can't see be so good at killing those snakes?" My reply...."Practice!" @117 and 143, SKS..I love em! I have 10! Simple to field strip, very affordable surplus ammo in crate quantity that also feeds the AK's. Yugo's are cool. I have 2 M66/A1-s and an M59. Anybody buy any blanks and try out that grenade launcher yet? I'm thinking about it (purchasing blanks and a practice dud grenade). Anybody snag some of those Sino-banian SKS currently on the market ? I have 2. Stocks are really rough, but the bore looks brand new. They must have been for carrying around in Albania and not for shooting.

Posted by: Judge_Roy_bean at December 09, 2012 05:48 PM (Q32WF)

161 lol, as if someone is going to register on twitter just to tell andy their preference of gun..... wow, whats next, change the comments to facebook comments like powerline or something?

Posted by: vikingsfan at December 11, 2012 07:03 PM (nicPi)

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