1 How's your ass, ace?

2 I would say he is pretty conservative. Not perfect. And, about to have his ass shown to the crowd since he is now up.

3 It seems that he's a lot like President Bush when it comes to government: big social conservative, not so big on fiscal conservatism or small government ideas. While I like social conservatism and I think its the root source of fiscal conservatism, we need both, not one or the other. And right now if we have to have just one, it probably ought to be fiscal restraint.

4

great, just what we need.  Another Bush in the White House.  Let's run this monstrosity of a government efficiently and correctly.  That'll do a hell of a lot of good.

5 It doesn't really matter.  Obama is a big government monarchist so anything is better than him.

6

Premature posting?

I don't think its fair to call Santorum a big government conservative like Brooks is.  Santorum definitely wants a smaller government then what we have now.

But Santorum does want government to do things, including some things it isn't already doing, which isn't the ideal message right now.

The GOP is going to have to stop looking for perfect or even really good candidates, because there aren't any this cycle.

7 You have to vote for Santorum before you can find out what's in his campaign.

8 Sorry but in my mind they are all for big government. Except for Ron Paul.

Yes, I know. We're supposed to hate him.

9 It's over, Acey. It's over.

NOTHING IS OVER

10 Yeah, and it's ironic that Santorum was the favorite of the Tea Party in Iowa. Either the Tea Party is a joke, and is really just the (socially?) conservative wing of the party, and not some separate limited government faction, or Iowa is a strange place.

11 I like social conservatism and I think its the root source of fiscal conservatism, we need both, not one or the other. And right now if we have to have just one, it probably ought to be fiscal restraint.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at January 04

 

That's it.  Lack of social conservativism will destroy fiscal conservatism in the long run.

But since lack of fiscal conservatism is destroying us in the short run, that's where are focus should be.

12 I think not as bad as W was, no. Also being a state rep in Congress is so different from Chief Executive. I honestly believe he's smart enough to understand the differences between the two roles. The worst thing that can be said about him is that he's earnest, and probably too actively pro-life for most people nowadays. That's sad, for us, not for him.

13 Is Ace a big post writer?

Hey don't get mad at me for asking. His own movie reviews suggest that, while his political posts could lead a reader to accuse him of being

14 Over on Hot Air, Gingrich is so butthurt he won't congratulate Romney.  That is the type of reasoned debate this campaign has been missing.

15 >> I don't think its fair to call Santorum a big government conservative like Brooks is.  Santorum definitely wants a smaller government then what we have now

Yeah, my term for this is "slightly smaller big government."

"Big Government Conservative" is in the early lead for oxymoron of the year, though.

16 Well, I don't accept the label of "big government conservative" but let's play along for argument's sake. Santorum seeks to utilize to government to ONLY do the things that it is constitutionally mandated to do - defense of the realm, secure borders, law enforcement and to secure life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Essentially, these are the things that only the government can do. So if he wants to do these in a "big" way, bravo. When on considers the SCOAMF-Marxist definition of big government, I'll take Santorum any day.

17 Rush was describing his "big govt conservative" ideal as pro big government protect of borders, rule of law and freedom. Not big government in the liberals sense or big entitlement and dependency.

FWIW

18 Sorry but in my mind they are all for big government. Except for Ron Paul.

Yes, I know. We're supposed to hate him.

Posted by: Shermlock Shomes

 

Ron Paul has refused to criticize entitlements. Entitlements--small government necessities since 2011.

19
I think the more interesting angle today is Newt saying he is open to the idea of an alliance with Santorum to push back on the establishment's guy Romney.

20

I don't think its fair to call Santorum a big government conservative like Brooks is. Santorum definitely wants a smaller government then what we have now.

But Santorum does want government to do things, including some things it isn't already doing, which isn't the ideal message right now.

Yup. Santorum, I really don't think is even the best small gov guy in this race. But he is a hell of a lot better than Obama. Or Brooks or Romney. He definetly isn't what I wanted, but he is progress. He may want to do things with government I don't, but he does want to do less than we are now doing.

21 Rick worries about gays too much.  He couldn't win Pa. Bush was the ultimate big government republican.  Bush wasn't conservative.  The last conservative was Reagan.

22

Yeah, and it's ironic that Santorum was the favorite of the Tea Party in Iowa. Either the Tea Party is a joke, and is really just the (socially?) conservative wing of the party, and not some separate limited government faction, or Iowa is a strange place.

Or the Tea Party people didn't like their other options and went with who they considered to be the most viable (least vetted?) not-Romney.

23 8 Sorry but in my mind they are all for big government. Except for Ron Paul. Yes, I know. We're supposed to hate him. Posted by: Shermlock Shomes at January 04, 2012 01:47 PM (egK7/) If he's elected, will you call him out when he sets up a Dept. of Joo Affairs?

24 I've resigned myself to the fact that it really doesn't matter who we elect.

The government will grow, it will take more and more, and finally
the system will break. And hilarity and chaos will ensue.

But mostly chaos.

25 I'd say Perry is a bigger conservative than Santorum. Santorum is  getting his media anal treatment now, so he'll melt fast anyway. The guy has been considered a joke in PA for years or at least in my part. Hopefully Gingrich beautifully damages Gingrich and Perry is able to make the sale to not romneys in SC and head to florida with momentum.
If you want a general election about social issues than pick Santorum. He also got to where he was in Iowa by campaigning hard in every county for about 2 years. He doesnt have time to do that later

26 Until I read a piece about Santorum's voting record, I had forgotten just how anti-free market he was. Never met a spending bill he didn't like plus he voted against free trade. He's a Catholic Mike Huckabee.

27 "being considered a joke" by PA residents is probably a good thing. PA residents, myself included, are a bunch of idiots.

28 STOP LOOKING FOR THE PERFECT CANDIDATE ALREADY! Jeez, we're all acting like chicks here. He's not perfect, he doesn't tell me he loves me enough, I gotta bug him to mow the lawn YAK YAK YAK!

29 How exactly was Bush a big social conservative? And as for (lack of) fiscal restraint, the size of the federal government kept (slightly less) pace than the population and the economy. The federal government was proportionally smaller under Bush than Reagan. Not that I wouldn't axe whole departments like everyone else here, but I'd take four more years of W. right now.

30 I must admit I'm short on data on Santorum but a reelection loss can't be good on your resume.

31 Meanwhile, as we are attacking a decent, moral and intelligent guy, SCOAMF is recess appointing Cordray - and the Senate's not even in recess. This is sickening.

32 Rick worries about gays too much.

Backwards. Gays worry about Rick too much.

33 I can't wait to find out if South Carolinians hate Catholics or Mormons more! Should be illuminating.

34 . He's a Catholic Mike Huckabee.

exactly

35 Holy shit, is McCain going to die right onstage?

36 Rush was describing his "big govt conservative" ideal as pro big government protect of borders, rule of law and freedom. Not big government in the liberals sense or big entitlement and dependency.

FWIW

Posted by: Texas T

 

Santorum is an amnesty man.  FWIW.  Or at least he's made noises like that in the past.  He also opposes E-verify.

So it appears that reducing illegal immigration is one area where Santorum is happy to be small government.

37 Of the 3 remaining candidates on planet Earth (Perry's on death row and Nor Luap is an alien lizard), Romney may be the least likely to use government to foster social policy.

Scary thought.

38
I for one am pretty surprised how shitty Hunstman is doing. I mean the guy does have a decent record as governor and he is well spoken.

I don't expect Hunstman to do well, but shit, 1% in Iowa?

39 Yeeaaaah! I'm going to endorse Santorum he's my fraternal- Gardisal Twin111!1 (It's just that no one took him seriously....)

40 I agree, soothsayer, he's really not 1 percent bad. But Iowa is kind of a strange system. I guess we'll see what he can do in NH

41

Hopefully Gingrich beautifully damages Gingrich

No hope needed, that's a cast-iron certainty.

42 Santorum is not going to win, but his showing in Iowa is evidence of how flawed on nominating process is. Iowa Republicans are simply a non-representative sample of Republicans at large.

43
Gingrich imploded last night and into today.

The end began last week when Newt couldn't keep his mouth shut about negative ads. Nobody likes a whiny bitch.

Noot is done.

44

STOP LOOKING FOR THE PERFECT CANDIDATE ALREADY!

I don't recall you screaming at us when we were vetting all the other candidates.  But now that it's Santorum being vetted, that's different, LEAVE SANTORUM ALONE.

45 This internal sniping is pointless.  God has already told Pat Robertson who the next president will be.  I'm thinkin' Tim Tebow.

P.S.  God and I seem to be on the same page as regards the state of the union:

"Your country will be torn apart by internal stress. A house divided cannot stand. Your president holds a radical view of the direction of your country which is at odds with the majority. Expect chaos and paralysis. Your president holds a view which is at the odds with the majority — it’s a radical view of the future of this country, and so that‘s why we’re having this division."

46 Santorum endorsed Arlen Specter in 2004.  He could have stayed neutral or endorsed a conservative challenger, but no.

That's all I need to know.  I'm not saying Santorum wouldn't be better that Obama, of course, but his conduct in 2004 speaks volumes -- and prevents me from having any enthusiasm for him.

47

Santorum scares the hell out of me.

If he becomes president, you can kiss ass fucking goodbye.  And IÂ’m not talking that homo stuff, but good, wholesome anal with catholic girls. 

ThereÂ’s a fine line between social conservatism and full-on Nazi totalitarianism.

48 Do we really have to take Saintorum seriously? Does he really stand a chance outside Iowa? Right now it seems that he is even less a contender than Mike Huckabee was at this point. At least Huckabee won the state be a sizeable margin and not only because he was the last non-Romney contender who wasnt analprobed yet.

49

34 . He's a Catholic Mike Huckabee.

Ha!  that's great.  Maybe not quite that liberal but not nearly as charming and likable either.

50 I'll vote for Mitt before I vote for an assclown who is on record as saying he's against personal autonomy.

If Santorum gets the nomination, I really will sit out the election.  And considering that Obama is the worst president in my lifetime, that would take a truly horrendous candidate.  That candidate is Santorum.

51

I don't recall you screaming at us when we were vetting all the other candidates. But now that it's Santorum being vetted, that's different, LEAVE SANTORUM ALONE.

You won't have anyone left.

Better ask Hillary if she will run against Obama as a Republican maybe.

Obama will crush that empty suit Romney like a tin can.

52 * Oh, I forgot: Saintorum didnt win. He lost by 8 votes or something.

53 He's a Catholic Mike Huckabee. ******* ...which means Santorum scares most Catholics. Hell at this rate the Republican primary might as well be a Bible quote off.

54 I don't want another Bush.  But another Bush is far better than another Obama.

55 Outside of a tweet which might have been auto-posted, has there been any indication that Perry has not left the race?

56 Honestly, I might vote for Rick Santorum just to watch Dan Savage set himself aflame.

57 Do we really have to take Saintorum seriously? Does he really stand a chance outside Iowa? Right now it seems that he is even less a contender than Mike Huckabee was at this point. At least Huckabee won the state be a sizeable margin and not only because he was the last non-Romney contender who wasnt analprobed yet. Posted by: Elize Nayden, Newtist at January 04, 2012 01:58 PM (q3zGg) We'll know next Tuesday. My hunch is he will not hold up in NH.

58 The end began last week when Newt couldn't keep his mouth shut about negative ads. Nobody likes a whiny bitch.

Noot is done.

Posted by: soothsayer at January 04, 2012 01:56 PM (sqkOB)

But he can take down Mittens with him

59 soothsayer at January 04, 2012 01:54 PM (sqkOB)

While Huntsman looks like a good gov. on paper, the Utards that I know f'n hate him. I'm not sure why but I don't think it's cause he's jack Mormon, The loathing is petty equal among Mormons and non-Mormons.

60

Santorum scares the hell out of me.

If he becomes president, you can kiss ass fucking goodbye.  And IÂ’m not talking that homo stuff, but good, wholesome anal with catholic girls.

Posted by: jwest at January 04, 2012 01:57 PM (8moZm)

I love this place so much.

61 This is all based on really shallow perceptions but I don't see The Sweatervest^TM going head-to-head with Obama. I think he's going to repel the dumbass women we unfortunately have to cater to consider.

That aside, I'm not voting for a Big Gov Catholic. I'd really like to be a fly on the wall during his Sunday morning mass. They don't (usually) use words like "social justice'. At least not on Sunday masses. The Jesuits save that for college campuses. But it's all embedded in their sermons whether they use the buzzwords or not.

There is no way in hell I would vote for a practicing Catholic unless he specifically denounced the Marxism running rampant in the organization of his Church. And how likely is that? Nope, this former Catholic would rather vote for the Mormon.

62 Second look at Cthulhu?

63

Santorum is the only person who understands that the social problems are also causing a lot of the economic problems. Having Big Govenment^tm in that area I do not mind at all.

 

 

   

64 I look forward to reading the "Game Change" of this election. The high drama does not disappoint.

65 I use to be a huge Santorum fan-seriously. I even defended the Dead Baby Letter-but jeez why couldn't he have kept that private? And after the loss in PA for his re-election he just has a bitter air about him-and he is ... he's too busy trying to prove he's Pro-Life at every turn.

66 Second look at Cthulhu?

Word.  Why settle for the lesser Evil?

67 I love Rush, but I am going to be pissed off beyond belief (not that he will care) if he does not endorse whoever the heck wins this wonderful GOP slot after the last primary. Unless, of course, it is Pon Raul, Rainman's choice. Then I vote for the brokered convention and will show up with spurs to help  change that one. I can swing by Tampa for that party.

I like Santorum but something about him weirds me out. Can't put my finger on it. Would I vote for him vs Jug Eared Face Mole? No question, Irene.

I would vote for ABO 2012. Drink copiously and adopt this slogan.

68 60 comments in and the link in the post is broken?

I'm beginning to think this guy Breitbart is on to something.

69 Romney may be the least likely to use government to foster social policy.

RomneyCare is social policy.

70 Santorum is a flash in the pan.  His "surge" was pumped by the MFM and fortuitously timed.  No staying power.  Thus, it really is pasty white, doughboy, baggage laden, DC insider and whoring Newt vs. the 'dummy' but accomplished executive Perry for the conservative vote. Unfortunately, 50% of the voters are below average intelligence and 100% are subject to the 24/7 MFM drumbeat.  Oh well, what will be, will be.

71 If Santorum gets the nomination, I really will sit out the election.  And considering that Obama is the worst president in my lifetime, that would take a truly horrendous candidate.  That candidate is Santorum.

Posted by: Caiwyn

Oh, come on.  CAN we stop with the threats to sit out the election that counts already?  Every time someone does that, they discredit themselves, the candidates they support, and the opposition to the candidates they oppose.

You won't have anyone left.

Posted by: Entropy,

Of course you will.  It's mathematically certain.  Its just that whoever is left will be someone who is vetted, with known flaws.

Bush didn't get adequately vetted in 2000, Obama didn't get adequately vetted in 2008.  Results are evident.

72 Romney may be the least likely to use government to foster social policy. RomneyCare is social policy. ---------- And we have a winner!!!

73 10 Yeah, and it's ironic that Santorum was the favorite of the Tea Party in Iowa. Either the Tea Party is a joke, and is really just the (socially?) conservative wing of the party, and not some separate limited government faction, or Iowa is a strange place. The Tea Party started out as a limited government, Gadsden flag kind of thing. But then it quickly became a refuge for "compassionate" conservatives who -- after their hero GWBush shat the presidency -- were embarrassed to call themselves Republican, so they latched onto a new brand for themselves.

74 Santorum drives me nuts. For all Mitten's faults, he's still worlds better than santorum and his curious obsession with Teh Gaez.

75

Are we all fucking idiots falling for this shit!?! 

They are trying to convince you that Rick Santorum is a big government republican so that Mitt Romney can get elected.

Who the hell is a bigger government republican than Mitt Romney.

Dumbshits, all of us, if we listen to them.

76 We'll know next Tuesday. My hunch is he will not hold up in NH.

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 04, 2012 01:59 PM (i6RpT)

Yeah, but NH these days is nothing but the early primary road stop for liberal Republicans. The question for conservatives after Iowa is usually: How is he doing in SC?

77 Yeah, yeah, yeah, who cares? How about that illegal recess appointment? Come on you're one of the most influential blogs. Bang the drum get that scoamf

78 Outside of a tweet which might have been auto-posted, has there been any indication that Perry has not left the race?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6v6y9x3

79 Benedict has made some moves towards restraining the Social Gospel a bit. Outside of dogma, there's always room for pushback.

80 This is why I wrote Why I am not a Conservative.

Authority from the right is just as oppressive as authority from the left.

http://tinyurl.com/76pjqhk

81 Gene Simmons says the next president is going to be Rick Perry and he's never wrong.

82 Jeez, we're all acting like chicks here. He's not perfect, he doesn't tell me he loves me enough, I gotta bug him to mow the lawn YAK YAK YAK!

That's not true.  I always mow the lawn myself, bright and early, in my sweater, every Saturday right before church.

Unlike some candidates I could mention.

83 To whoever up thread wondered about Perry and his tweet, he also just did an interview confirming his intentions

84 59 While Huntsman looks like a good gov. on paper, the Utards that I know f'n hate him. I'm not sure why but I don't think it's cause he's jack Mormon, The loathing is petty equal among Mormons and non-Mormons.

Posted by: Xander Crews

 

Huntsman was pretty liberal  in office . . . for Utah.  He sold out the conservatives on immigration and from what I heard he stabbed the school vouchers people in the back in a major way. 

I hear the same thing as you from conservative Utahns that I know.

85 >>>Rush was describing his "big govt conservative" ideal as pro big government protect of borders, rule of law and freedom. Not big government in the liberals sense or big entitlement and dependency.

With all due respect, you can't trust a damn thing Rush says about any of the candidates at this point.  His only concern is boosting a "not-Romney" and today that's Santorum.  So today Santorum is a "true conservative," just like he argued with a straight face that Newt Gingrich, despite all his liberal heresies, was also a "small government true conservative." 

Rush is entertaining, but you're a fool if you trust him to tell you the truth about any candidate.  I remember him announcing for four hours straight that Jon Huntsman was "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice" on the day he announced his candidacy, only to sheepishly correct it (Huntsman is in fact hardcore pro-life) with a brief statement the next day.

86

soothsayer, I keep hearing how Huntsman is actually more conservative than his arrogant, douchy demeanor would suggest, but I really don't care. Anyone that condescending of the American people has no chance of winning an election, no matter how "electable" they look on paper.

The way he handled the Iowa caucus is a great case in point: McCain also avoided campaigning in Iowa but he used his ethonal opposition as a cover story for doing so, he didn't flat out call Iowans ignorant corn picking hicks. Hell, would YOU vote for Huntsman after that, if you were from Iowa? No wonder Romney clobbers him, he may be even more of a RINO but at least he isn't an insulting twit.

87

Santorum is worse than Romney.  I think Ace has him pegged fairly well.  He's of the "compassionate" conservative big-government, let's-ram-our-religion-down-everybody-else's-throat mold.

Romney may be hard-core moderate, but at least he's not a big-government zealot. 

88 Outside of a tweet which might have been auto-posted, has there been any indication that Perry has not left the race? ---- Yep.

89 I want 2012 to be mostly economics. You wont get that with santorum. He is a flash in the pan. I pray Perry does well Saturday to get a second look.

90

They are trying to convince you that Rick Santorum is a big government republican so that Mitt Romney can get elected.

Posted by: dogu at January 04, 2012 02:03 PM (gUGI6)

They? Who is "they". The Bilderbergers? Obamas "cynics"?

91 Rush was commenting on this during my lunch drive around.  He said he's for government solutions where required, but not big government like liberals want (socialism).  He's for security and protection and the enforcement of law, but not the nanny state definition of big government.

92 43
Gingrich imploded last night and into today.

The end began last week when Newt couldn't keep his mouth shut about negative ads. Nobody likes a whiny bitch.

I like how he thinks he's really going to hammer on Romney now when in reality all he's doing is making the opposition's attacks ads against him. Nobody likes a bitter old man and Newt has supplied his opposition enough of that kind of footage for a years worth of ads. I don't think his campaign has anyone that can reign him in.

93 61

"There is no way in hell I would vote for a practicing Catholic unless he specifically denounced the Marxism running rampant in the organization of his Church."

What the hell are you talking about.  No institution on earth outside of the US military did more to destroy the Soviet Empire than the Catholic Church.  Not to mention that most of the founding fathers of conservatism were Catholic.

I'm not even a Santorum supporter, but please quit this nonsense

94 We'll know next Tuesday. My hunch is he will not hold up in NH.

NH has a poor record of picking the ultimate winner.  Its a RINO state and does not reflect the political profile of the rest of this country's republicans.

95 Still voting for Perry.

96 RomneyCare is social policy.

Posted by: countrydoc

Sure.  Don't be fooled, though.  Romney defends it loudly, but he could care less.  His only real principle is getting to the top of the heap.  He has no programs of his own to push.

97

Whoever wins the nomination is going to be labeled a "TEA Party extremist" by the democrat vilification collective.

98 Outside of a tweet which might have been auto-posted, has there been any indication that Perry has not left the race?

There was an interview with the Austin American-Statesman. It sounds like he's in through South Carolina, at least.

99 Well if it's Romney or Santorum... Santorum. What's Romney's crowning achievement? RomneyCare. And Romney's committed to being right about that on some level like Rep.Hank Johnson is still arguing his Guam-Is-Tilting-Theory.

100 They are all Big Government conservatives.

101 Posted by: lowandslow at January 04, 2012 02:05 PM (GZitp) ---- If this is the tactic Newt will use, he's done. That leaves: Mitt Santorum Paul Perry Huntsman Out of these, who's the most viable?

102

>>>Are we all fucking idiots falling for this shit!?! 

>>>They are trying to convince you that Rick Santorum is a big government republican so that Mitt Romney can get elected.

Unless you were literally in a zombie trance for the entirety of the Bush era, you would know that Santorum is the quintessential example of a Big Government Republican.  He was proud of it.  Shit, the man was literally defending pork-barrel spending as "a Congressional prerogative" last week.

He was a big booster of No Child Left Behind, Medicare Part D, earmarks, Arlen Specter, and social morality legislation.  He wants the government to pick winners and losers in the economy in order to favor the manufacturing sector so missed by his Pennsylvanian constituency.

I don't mean this as a slander.  It's just what his record is: he was the prototype "Compassionate Conservative," a guy who believed that a big government was acceptable and even desirable so long as that government was used to achieve socially conservative ends.  There are still a lot of those folks in the GOP, by the way -- many of them evangelicals.

103

Seriously, Tea Party, just stop pretending you're libertarians.

You're really, really not.  I know, you like the small government / fiscal responsibility planks of libertarian philosophy, but that's pretty much it.

When it comes to social politics, you want the government involved to tell people how to conduct their lives just as much as any liberal does.  The only difference is the specific behaviors you want the government to meddle in.

104 Well, at least Bauchmann has dropped out.  Some good came from Iowa.

105 75

Are we all fucking idiots falling for this shit!?! 

They are trying to convince you that Rick Santorum is a big government republican so that Mitt Romney can get elected.

Who the hell is a bigger government republican than Mitt Romney.

Dumbshits, all of us, if we listen to them.

Posted by: dogu

They are trying to convince you of this because they read his book and looked at his record.

The dumbshits are the ones who think that because we already know Romney is bad, we should pass up vetting Santorum.

106 #93: I'm pretty sure Comment #61 was satire, although it is admittedly tough to tell sometime on the internet.

107 but please quit this nonsense

I don't consider securing the border nonsense. Nonsense would be defined as the Church's incessant need to feed, clothe, and home every third world'r.

And you followed OWS right? Did you see who was in lockstep with the dirtbags? The priests.

108 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

109

I'll bet I'm the only person here who actually bought Santorum's book, and read it.  All of it, not just the Cliff Notes version on some blog that doesn't like him.  It's written in purple prose, but the ideas are very interesting and not really able to be captured in a slogan or even a sentence. 

Just for some history, he wrote the book largely as a response to Hillary Clinton's book "It Takes a Village."  His title very deliberately was "It Takes A Family."  He doesn't want "the village" raising our children or running our lives, he wants "the family" to remain the unit that is the basic building block of our society.  His book makes a very convincing case for this.  We cannot have a strong economy, strong values, or maintain America as the beacon of freedom around the world unless we stop undermining the family, both with our laws and with our culture. 

I don't think he would be a very good President but not because he is a "big government conservative," whatever the hell that is. 

110

I submit that Santorum cannot win. All this jibber jabber amounts to farts in the wind.

111 @100 Romney/Ryan wins it.

Or: Romney/Rubio (be still my heart) Then! Rubio/whoevah 2016?

112

When it comes to social politics, you want the government involved to tell people how to conduct their lives just as much as any liberal does.  The only difference is the specific behaviors you want the government to meddle in.

Posted by: Vyceroy

I don't know who you think you're talking to but it's not any TEA party follower.

113 Out of these, who's the most viable?

My take is that they're ranked:

Mitt
Luap Nor
Perry/Santorum (tie)
Huntsman

Perry can move up with a good showing in SC, and Santorum can move up with a good couple of weeks of fund-raising.

114 He's a Catholic Mike Huckabee.

Posted by: Spike at January 04, 2012 01:52 PM (g/arr)

This... Except at least Huckabck had executive experience, where as Santorum none.

I think Santorum will shrink when exposed to light. Newt I think is done. Looks like Perry is close to dead too. I fear we're stuck with Mittens, ugh. Of course in MN our primary is later so it's almost a foregone conclusion by then.

115 That aside, I'm not voting for a Big Gov Catholic...There is no way in hell I would vote for a practicing Catholic
Posted by: laceyunderalls at January 04, 2012 02:00 PM (Angta)

Religious bigotry is an ugly thing.  Tell me, how do you feel about the Jews?

116 Why does Santorum, a conservative, believe that getting government out of our lives means a person must “go it alone,” anyway? Maybe it means that person can go to his local church or his family or his community or his local bar to seek help — or maybe he can figure things out himself.

Santorum is yet another Christian who easily succumbs to what has been referred to around here as "Christian socialism", the knee-jerk temptation to use government overreach to solve the problems of society.  This isn't just limited to Catholicism, as a fair number of Protestants and practitioners of other Christian denominations also fall into this flawed line of thinking. 

Individuals and private groups should be doing the Lord's work, not a faceless, secular government office.

117 My take is that they're ranked: Mitt Luap Nor Perry/Santorum (tie) Huntsman --- Is this your viability ranking, because...wtf?

118 Whoever wins the nomination is going to be labeled a "TEA Party extremist" by the democrat vilification collective.

Generic Republican is a radical, paleoconseervative Tea Partier who wants to destroy jobs, starve children, and turn off the electric lights.

No wait, that's us.

119 Iowa?  Seriously?  DFW has a bigger population.  And now we're on to New Hampshire - another state that is, at best purple, and voted for the SCOMAF in 2008.  Quite frankly, unless she was out of cash, even Bachmann should have stayed in.  I am sick to death of the blue states, MSM and suppurating, abcessed democrats and "indies" (code word for hipster dumbasses) picking the republican candidate. Every damn one of them should be fighting.

120 Out of these, who's the most viable?

Posted by: Joffen at January 04, 2012 02:07 PM (zLeKL)

Dont you want to see Mittens attacked? Newts pac has a lot of money. I hope he releases good ads just to fuck romney.

121 He's a Catholic Mike Huckabee. (this)

... without Huckabee's charisma.

I think we Repubs lose to the SCoaMF if we nominate Santorum.  He is more of a scold that Obama, and appears less presidential than Obama!  He also seems determined to pick winners and losers among our business enterprises.  If you think Mittens' attacks on Obamacare will be toothless because of Romneycare, how about Santorum's attacks on Solyndra given his "help the manufacturers" tax plan?

I predict, and hope, that Santorum's Iowa finish is a flash in the pan and he follows Bachman out the door sooner rather than later.

122 I did a "Living with the Nightmare - President Romney. " back in November. I argued that as bad as the prospect of Romney is - it might be acceptable as Romney seemed malleable. The tea party might be able to pressure him to do enough to the right things. I wonder about Santorum. He seems more... dedicated. When he supported Specter over Toomey it was over the objections of his base. He stuck his neck over ... friendship maybe? But the point is he stood up to pressure. And, from my point of view, THAT'S A BAD THING. If he could stand up to has base over Specter what happens when the house wants to cut the budget he thinks we need to spend money to subsidize manufacturing? I wonder about Santorum. As bad as Romney is, he's the devil I know. I don't know Santorum that well. But at least there's time to look at him as the primary season is just starting.

123 I'm gonna be a Huntsmaniac. It's his turn for a not-Romney bounce and I want to get in on the ground floor this time

124 And you followed OWS right? Did you see who was in lockstep with the dirtbags? The priests.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at January 04, 2012 02:09 PM (Angta)

 

To be fair...there were rape tents and children present.

125 Tell me, how do you feel about the Jews?

Pretty much the same as Catholics but a lot less Latin.

126 Seriously, Tea Party, just stop pretending you're libertarians.

I don't think they've ever pretended to be. It just sounded like it because the current President is as Statist as I've seen in my lifetime.

When you compare to Obama, everyone here is a libertarian.

127 If Romney loses in South Carolina he ll have a really hard time winning- Florida. The first closed primary.

128 Dont you want to see Mittens attacked? Newts pac has a lot of money. I hope he releases good ads just to fuck romney. --- Yes, that will be awesome.

129 Out of these, who's the most viable?

Perry's and Santorum. But Perry can't attract voters and Santorum has no money or organization. If Romney does well in SC and FL I don't see anyway you stop him.

130 There is no way in hell I would vote for a practicing Catholic unless he specifically denounced the Marxism running rampant in the organization of his Church.

Lacey, my husband is a devout Catholic (well, maybe not too devout since I didn't convert and we weren't married by a priest!) and he is constantly appalled by all the Marxists/socialist stuff.

I agree it would be nice if Santorum would address that, although I am firmly ABO and will vote for whoever gets the nomination. But I definitely understand your concerns.

131

"Barack Obama and Elizabeth Warren have been hitting this same note an awful lot."

Seriously? This is not a thoughtful statement Ace. I come here for thoughftul analysis. Even if I disagree with you on occasion I appreciate a well reasoned argument.

Fail.

 

132 My problem with Santorum is his need to have government impose itself in areas of personal choice.  I'm anti-abortion, but I don't think it should be illegal. I don't think gays should "marry" - they should have their own institution, but I don't think government needs to be involved in sorting that out.  If in the end, gays want to marry well, I've been pissed about other things in my life and none of them have killed me.  I think traditional values are important and necessary for the health of our society, but imposing them on people through government isn't the answer.  IMHIO

133 But he can take down Mittens with him Posted by: Flapjackmaka at January 04, 2012 02:00 PM (FKQng) Yeah and that might be a good thing. But then who will be left standing?

134 I don't think Santorum is as fake as Stab-in-the-Back Huckabee was.

135 If Romney does well in SC and FL I don't see anyway you stop him. ---- I agree, if Mitt does well in SC he's our guy.

136

So what the arguement seems to boil down to, is WHO will get to tell us what to do... who will use Government power... not if the Government SHOULD be able to tell us what to do...

And Santorum will soon be crucified by the Press (and yes, used that term on purpose)... Iowa essentaily voted for an unknown, vice for the other already flawed candidates... but he won't stay unknown for long..

And yes, he is a Statist... and does not lean to the Libertarian side... which will KILL him in the West...

137 sock off.

138 62 Second look at Cthulhu?

Posted by: That's RACIST! at January 04, 2012 02:00 PM (V0QP1)

At this point he might be the lesser evil.

139 Santorum may not be the most conservative candidate but he is definitely better than Paul and Obama.

140 Santorum is yet another Christian who easily succumbs to what has been referred to around here as "Christian socialism", the knee-jerk temptation to use government overreach to solve the problems of society.  This isn't just limited to Catholicism, as a fair number of Protestants and practitioners of other Christian denominations also fall into this flawed line of thinking. 

Individuals and private groups should be doing the Lord's work, not a faceless, secular government office.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at January 04, 2012 02:11 PM (9hSKh)

 

Read his freaking book, that's exactly what he says in it. 

141 I think Santorum will shrink when exposed to light. Newt I think is done. Looks like Perry is close to dead too. I fear we're stuck with Mittens.

Santorum is the incredible shrinking candidate but if Perry can get the Santorum, Bachmann, and Newt vote, he could take it.

142 >>>I don't know who you think you're talking to but it's not any TEA party follower.

I believe he's addressing the mounting perception that Rick Santorum was the "Tea Party" choice in IA and (if Rush is to be believed, which he's not) is now the guy all true conservatives and Tea Partiers are supposed to rally behind.

If that's the case, then it's a fair point.  Because Santorum is very nearly a theocon.  The man actually explicitly rails against the idea of "personal autonomy" and "individualism" (no joke, he's attacked it in those words several times) as a terrible thing, and claims that the role of government is to form a more morally perfect citizenship, ideally under a religiously-guided stewardship.

Again, to be fair, this used to be a very popular (even majority) view in the GOP, and in large parts of America as a whole.  But it's devastatingly out-of-step with the American mood right now, and arguably pretty objectionable on its own merits.

143

What I learned from the conservative blogosphere:

--Gingrich is big government even though he led a massive revolution against big government while Romney trashed Reagan and Bush.

--Santorum is big government even though he has publicly advocated steep spending cuts and tax cuts and has been a strident critic of Obamacare and Hillarycare and in fact consistently opposed the mandate. 

--Oceania has always been at war with East Asia.

144 Donated $50 to Perry. Fight the fight in SC

145 As a Christian, I completely understand the desire of Christians to enshrine (for lack of a better word) our social values in law.  And there is a lot to be said about the fact that Western Civilization exists as it does largely due to Christian influence.

But, Christians: We weren't the first to realize murder was bad.  Nor lying, theft, or any number of other things.  These are societal issues- in as much as someone who murders and is allowed to get away with it undermines the peoples' faith in society.  Two dudes banging each other isn't.

This is the problem with Big Government Conservatism: it isn't conservative.  It proposes less liberty, and more government intervention in pursuit of its own goals.  Liberty means sometimes people are going to do things you don't like.

146 Santorum is yet another Christian who easily succumbs to what has been referred to around here as "Christian socialism", the knee-jerk temptation to use government overreach to solve the problems of society.  This isn't just limited to Catholicism, as a fair number of Protestants and practitioners of other Christian denominations also fall into this flawed line of thinking. 

Individuals and private groups should be doing the Lord's work, not a faceless, secular government office.

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at January 04, 2012 02:11 PM (9hSKh)

You nailed it, Santorum is a Crusader. IMO he will use to power of the government and with that the military to further his religious social and economic views, conservatism be damned.

147 Is this your viability ranking, because...wtf?

Yep. Mitt's got the money, organization, and some momentum. You can say the same thing (sadly) about Luap Nor.

Santorum's got momentum, but no money. Perry's got money, but no momentum. I dither about which is more important, so I gave them a tie.

Huntsman's viability depends on NH. If he wins there, he goes up, but given the way he tanked in Iowa, I have grave doubts.

148 He's nothing but a soccon who wants to impose *his* morality and rules on everyone else.  He's Huckaby without the bass guitar.  Oh well, googling "santorum" will be a lot of fun. You know what?  I'll take the big government w/o someone's religion driving it.

149 Rush is entertaining, but you're a fool if you trust him to tell you the truth about any candidate.

Friends, there is ONE thing you CAN trust me to tell the truth about, and it's that ICED TEA ought to be made with REAL SUGAR.  And that's why you can drink TWO IF BY TEA™ in full confidence that Kathryn and I have brewed it with SUGAR and not HIGH-FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP!  (That's "brain-eating death sweetener" for those of you in Rio Linda.)  The race for the Republican nomination may be fractured and embittered, but if ONE THING can unite this party (around a Country-Class Conservative who isn't Mitt Romney, that is; I've golfed with Mitt and he's a great guy but he's not a conservative), it's the delicious taste of TWO IF BY TEA™ in Original, Raspberry, and new DIET PEACH!  So call to order a 12-bottle case of TWO IF BY TEA™ today; the shipping is free and let's face it, that's about the only thing that still WILL be free if Obama gets a second term and our national identity is EL KAPUTO!  (A little Spanish lingo, there.)  And speaking of IDENTITY, that reminds me of this story I have in the Stack of Stuff about the latest case of IDENTITY THEFT....

150 McCain endorses Romney.  As Billy Crystal said in The Princess Bride, "Why don't you give me a paper cut and pour lemon juice on it," except Wesley isn't coming back on this one.  Stay home please, Senator.

151 You can say all you want about Santorum- he didn't accomplish RomneyCare the blueprint for sinking the US economy.

152

Dont you want to see Mittens attacked? Newts pac has a lot of money. I hope he releases good ads just to fuck romney.

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at January 04, 2012 02:12 PM (FKQng)

And Mitt's PAC's have four times as much money, while Newt is talking about attacking Romney, Romney's already doing it. When Newt starts, Romney will just throw it back harder. Only difference is, Mitt ain't out there supplying ammunition like Newt is.

153 Uhh. . . did someone here say they wouldn't vote for a practicing Catholic? Really? hate to tell you, Christie and Rubio are practicing

154

Why do I get the sense that some here believe that Santorum actually has a shot at the Presidency? IF he gets the nod, then Obama wins.....which brings up another question.

Why is the right......some of the powers that be....giving Santorum an even handed shot at coverage and praising him for the showing in Iowa? He should be completely ignored......Candidate Santorum is the quickest way to an Obama second term besides Rue Paul.  

This is so crazy! Either force Romney to pick a Conservative running mate, or everybody runs with Noot, but for Christ Sake....stop the madness....and get the rest of the field out of the way ASAP.

This aint American Idol!

155 146Donated $50 to Perry. Fight the fight in SC

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at January 04, 2012 02:16 PM (FKQng)

Good on ya!

156 he wrote the book largely as a response to Hillary Clinton's book "It Takes a Village." His title very deliberately was "It Takes A Family." He doesn't want "the village" raising our children Santorum does not want the Village People to be able to adopt children.

157 108

You know NOTHING about the internal politics of the Catholic Church in the United States.  There was no Catholic "blessing" of the OWS movement.  Besides not wanting to tie itself to a political movement, there's no way the Church hierarchy would embrace a movement that is consisted of people who are hostile to crucial Church teachings.

Here's a link to the exchange between Paul Ryan (who I'm sure is a socialist because he goes to mass every Sunday) and Archbishop of New York Tim Dolan, discussing Ryan's budget plans.  Its not an endorsement because that's not the role of the Church to do so, but its clear that Ryan's approach is within the confines of a Catholic approach to public policy.
http://budget.house.gov/fy2012budget/dolandialogue.htm

158 10 Yeah, and it's ironic that Santorum was the favorite of the Tea Party in Iowa. Either the Tea Party is a joke, and is really just the (socially?) conservative wing of the party, and not some separate limited government faction, or Iowa is a strange place.

Posted by: Spike at January 04, 2012 01:47 PM (g/arr)

It started out as something akin to a libertarian movement.  Opposition to Obamacare, opposition to higher taxes.

Around the time of the 2010 election, or rather shortly thereafter, is when the tide turned, and the social conservatives basically took over the movement.  That was when you had assholes like Jim DeMint start in with the "true conservative" horseshit.

The way I see it, the "Tea Party" is really just a buzzword these days for "hard-right conservative".  There's nothing really libertarian about it anymore.

159 Yeah I don't think Rick S is going anywhere. I'm just saying he's not that horrendous, really. He did lose big here in PA but he really screwed up and local Rs here were ticked at him. I still don't understand why he endorsed FREAKING Specter.

160 ^{I'll be fascinated to see who considers Santorum to be a big government Conservative compared to Romney(care), and Newt. Maybe there's a local mandate out there to take a government mandate? (now I'm just being silly)}

161 Actually Santorum has a longer record than Romney... Romney accomplished RomneyCare in pretty short order...just like Obama!

162

"he didn't accomplish RomneyCare the blueprint for sinking the US economy."

This is a Red Herring! Romney is due fair play on the facts and history of the development of the Health Care system in Mass.

163 I will say that I haven't seen any damning quotes from the book yet.  Attacking 'personal autonomy' just means that Santorum doesn't agree that morals are just subjective.

164 Well, as for me, if Perry is not destined to be our nominee than I would have no problem supporting Santorum enthusiastically.

Yeah, no one asked, I know. I just thought I'd put in my two cents before the full vivisection of the latest Not-Romney begins in earnest.

165 Believing that "we are not alone" is not the same as believing in big government solutions. This line of attack is not going to work against Santorum the way it did against Huckabee because, in this case, the argument is invalid.

166 When Newt starts, Romney will just throw it back harder. Only difference is, Mitt ain't out there supplying ammunition like Newt is.

Posted by: lowandslow at January 04, 2012 02:18 PM (GZitp)

That still hurts romney though any way you dice it. People get a taste of Romney. Romney is out there supplying ammo. "mandates are conservative" hello? I'm guessing you support Mitt based on hotair comments and here but attack ads hurt. Gingrich is simply dragging mitt with him. And I;m sure Saintorum and Perry would like to help. Perry doesnt like mitt either.

167 I want to like Santorum (and I like his sweater vests), but I just don't trust him to stay on message.  I fear that when he should be talking about fiscal issues, he'll get sidetracked by social issues.

168 ...because Romney had his priorities- RomneyCare(s)!

169 This campaign was like a sped up version of Newt's earlier move to political heights. Out of relative obscurity to the cover of all the magazines, a surge to the top of the heap, and then a snarling, undignified exit.

170 Well, as for me, if Perry is not destined to be our nominee than I would have no problem supporting Santorum enthusiastically. Works for me, as well. I'll take Perry over Santorum, and both over the rest of the field. And if Newt really decides to go on this kamikaze mission against Romney, then it could wind up being a Perry-Santorum race. And damn that sounds good to me.

171 134 My problem with Santorum is his need to have government impose itself in areas of personal choice.  I'm anti-abortion, but I don't think it should be illegal. I don't think gays should "marry" - they should have their own institution, but I don't think government needs to be involved in sorting that out.  If in the end, gays want to marry well, I've been pissed about other things in my life and none of them have killed me.  I think traditional values are important and necessary for the health of our society, but imposing them on people through government isn't the answer.  IMHIO

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at January 04, 2012 02:14 PM (jx2j9)

In his book, Santorum shows pretty convincingly that "tolerance" for such anti-family behavior and refusal to enforce traditional values has put us on a slippery slope to social and economic ruin. 

I'm not saying I agree with all of this, but people really need to understand what the guy actually believes and not a caricature of him. 

172 He did lose big here in PA but he really screwed up and local Rs here were ticked at him. I still don't understand why he endorsed FREAKING Specter.

I think President Bush had a bit of a hand in guiding Santorum's endorsement. 

I wouldn't mind voting for Santorum, even with my reservations with him, but I have little hope that he could win in the general election.  Just my stupid opinion. 

173 >>>How's your ass, ace? ominous

174 I guarantee you the Paul Ryan crowd in the House (you know, the guys who will actually be making the laws) prefer Romney to Santorum. This isn't 1980. We control the f'n House now, and not only that, there is a real entitlement reform movement there. Those guys don't have a problem with Romney, and that's what really matters. It's imperative that we beat Obama, and get this entitlement reform thing moving, and Iowa Republicans seem to want to fight culture wars or something.

175 There is a reason that not many Presidents come out of the ranks of the Senate or Congress. They have a record to run on and a record that can picked apart. All to often, for better or worse, Senators and Congressmen have to make compromises when they vote or attachments are inserted to "must pass' bills. Of course not of this applied to obama who hardly attended andy congressional sessions, sponsored any bills, or even voted.

176 But, Christians: We weren't the first to realize murder was bad. Nor lying, theft, or any number of other things. These are societal issues- in as much as someone who murders and is allowed to get away with it undermines the peoples' faith in society. Two dudes banging each other isn't. Also, these aren't supposed to be federal issues. It's one thing for someone to insist on morality policing at the state level. It is quite another to insist on giving the feds the ability to enforce a national morality, as Santorum (and Huckabee before him) wants. What happens when Barney Frank becomes president after Santorum, and uses his newfound power - and nationalist judges appointed by Santorum - to enact perverse moral legislation? Santorum is against all forms of sodomy, except for when he does it to the Tenth Amendment.,/b>

177 whoops

178 174 I wouldn't mind voting for Santorum, even with my reservations with him, but I have little hope that he could win in the general election.

Same here.

179

"Santorum is against all forms of sodomy, except for when he does it to the Tenth Amendment"

Comedy Gold!

180 You know NOTHING about the internal politics of the Catholic Church in the United States.

Nope, I know nothing at all. Just raised it in all my life.

You mad that someone's discussing the Marxism, bro? Seems that way.

181 I cannot vote for Santorum.  He represents virtually every single negative talking point against Republicans.

182 It doesn't really matter. Obama is a big government monarchist so anything is better than him.

Exactly. Better Santorum than Obama. Better just about anyone than Obama.

183

So, ignoring Ron Paul (rasict nutjob conspiracy theorist) and Huntsman (to the left of Obama on some issues), I think I'd vote for any of the others over Romney.  And I think a lot of other Republicans are in this boat too.

Now that it's down to three not-Romney's, I think people will start taking a closer look at them.  What will they see?

Santorum - social con warmongerer with big government leanings
Gingrich - sooo much baggage, not sure where he actually stands on some issues.
Perry - very fiscally conservative, also socially conservative, 10 year governor with track record of jobs.

Why the fuck isn't Perry getting more traction from the not-Romney voters?

184

I'm not saying I agree with all of this, but people really need to understand what the guy actually believes and not a caricature of him. 

Posted by: rockmom

Why can't we do both?

This Jew is going to go to the nearest Big-5 sporting goods polling place and vote pump-action shotgun on election day.

185

If Mitt Romney is the candidate, I'm going to sit out this election.

/not really, I just wanted to see if that level of stupidity actually hurt.

186 I like that. "ominous" btw am wasting time I should be working thinking about my own prolife views, and how shocked many people would be to know I had them. I don't talk about it much IRL. BUT if I were involved in politics, I know it would come out right quick. I'd definitely seem totally "extreme" probably. I don't think I am. But it's very easy to get painted that way, when you very simply believe that abortion is feticide. Camille Paglia thinks the same thing; she is just happily pro-feticide. At least that's honest.

187 I cannot vote for Santorum.  He represents virtually every single negative talking point against Republicans.

Posted by: chemjeff at January 04, 2012 02:27 PM (s7mIC)

I don't remember his health care plan as Governor being the model for Obamacare.

188 According to Santorum, it's sodomy if, even in the missionary position (the only allowed by God), the woman feels any pleasure.

189

"Rush was commenting on this during my lunch drive around. He said he's for government solutions where required, but not big government like liberals want (socialism). He's for security and protection and the enforcement of law, but not the nanny state definition of big government."

And that's the definition of a progressive.

190 >>>I think President Bush had a bit of a hand in guiding Santorum's endorsement.

Nah, Santorum and Specter always had a good (even friendly) relationship, and Santorum in particular owed his ass to Specter.  It was Specter's money, support, and campaign team that got him elected in his upset victory over the incumbent Democrat Harris Wofford back in 1994.  There was no way Santorum wasn't going to endorse Arlen in that race...the only question was when the endorsement could be best timed to drop.

191

Why the fuck isn't Perry getting more traction from the not-Romney voters?

Posted by: OSUsux at January 04, 2012 02:27 PM (DFXmi)

Because he stepped on his dick every time he got up on stage?

192 Santorum said: "This whole idea of personal autonomy, well I donÂ’t think most conservatives hold that point of view. Some do. They have this idea that people should be left alone, be able to do whatever they want to do, government should keep our taxes down and keep our regulations low, that we shouldnÂ’t get involved in the bedroom, we shouldnÂ’t get involved in cultural issues. You know, people should do whatever they want. Well, that is not how traditional conservatives view the world and I think most conservatives understand that individuals canÂ’t go it alone. That there is no such society that I am aware of, where weÂ’ve had radical individualism and that it succeeds as a culture." Santorum is not just against personal autonomy. He explicitly rejects the notion that the feds should stay out of your bedroom.

193

>>>"Rush was commenting on this during my lunch drive around. He said he's for government solutions where required, but not big government like liberals want (socialism). He's for security and protection and the enforcement of law, but not the nanny state definition of big government."

>>>And that's the definition of a progressive.

Yeah, no shit, right?  And yet there Rush is, backing and filling, spinning like the biggest fucking cynic on the planet, just so Rick Santorum of all people can now be fit into the Procrustean bed of "Tea Party small gov't conservatism" that all not-Romneys are supposed to adhere to.

194 I want to like Santorum (and I like his sweater vests), but I just don't trust him to stay on message.  I fear that when he should be talking about fiscal issues, he'll get sidetracked by social issues.

Posted by: LIGuy at January 04, 2012 02:23 PM (c/M8t)

When in Iowa do as the Iowans do. Iowa's done.

195 190 According to Santorum, it's sodomy if, even in the missionary position (the only allowed by God), the woman feels any pleasure.

Posted by: SFGoth at January 04, 2012 02:29 PM (dZ756)

You think that's how he ended up with 6 kids?

196 So we're against the Kwazy Kwistians, now?

Boy, take one nap and suddenly everything's different.

197 I think Santorum would lose based on his speaking voice alone.  He comes across as whiney most of the time and the tempo of his delivery sets my teeth on edge.   Superficial, I know, but these things count.

198 The fundamental tenant of the Church is life.

Yet 54% of Catholics voted for the most on-the-record pro-choice candidate we've ever seen. A candidate that several times wouldn't even vote to protect children born of botched abortions. The same candidate that said he wouldn't want his own children punished with a baby.

Yet over half of Catholics tossed him their vote -- what is going on there?

199 Religion and Politics are a bad mix, and it even doesn't work all that well in Israel either.

200 "Rush was commenting on this during my lunch drive around. He said he's for government solutions where required, but not big government like liberals want (socialism). He's for security and protection and the enforcement of law, but not the nanny state definition of big government." And that's the definition of a progressive. Uhh, no, it's not. Not even close. But thanks for playing. There are many wonderful parting gifts.

201

Because he stepped on his dick every time he got up on stage?

You say that like it's easy to do.

202 Everyone read #194, and then read it a second time. 

That's Rick Santorum, in his own words.  And it's not just an aberration: he's been making this argument for nearly two decades.  It's bred into him, a core part of his religious worldview. If that doesn't curdle your fucking blood, I don't know what will.  But I do know that you probably aren't much of a Tea Partier if that's the case.

Seriously, that right there ought to deep-six Rick.

203 Posted by: Jeff B. at January 04, 2012 02:29 PM (hIWe1)

x100. basically if you fault Sanotrum over Specter endorsement you are faulting a guy for being loyal and true to his word. Not my idea a reason to vote against a guy.

204 Santorum, sigh. Anybody but Obama. I will happily vote Santorum if he gets the nomination, but, he really is just the most unpleasant man. I wonder if he will last past the next 2 or 3 debates. During the first hundred or so debates no one (except political nerds) really paid attention to just how annoying he was. Now that people are focused on him, it's possible they will be turned off by him. Now, the Newt meltdown has the potential to be really really entertaining.

205 197 190 According to Santorum, it's sodomy if, even in the missionary position (the only allowed by God), the woman feels any pleasure.

Posted by: SFGoth at January 04, 2012 02:29 PM (dZ756)

You think that's how he ended up with 6 kids?

Posted by: rockmom

I didn't know that a woman can't get pregnant if she doesn't enjoy the sex.

206

Yeah, let's just hand everything over to a brazen liar and fraud like Romney or a complete and total fool like Perry and hope for the best. Not people who actually understand policy making and lead decent lives.

For people opposing government involvement in social issues: do you comprehend just how sick of a society we have become? If not, we just aren't living in the same universe. I don't want to live in an America where pop culture is debased and dumbed down, where the family does not exist, where the unborn are murdered at will, drug use is rampant, homosexual ideology is preached in our media and schools, unpatriotic traitorous fucktards like Ron Paul can even be considered as serious candidates, and the great traditions, beliefs, and practices of Christianity wither away.

And the idea that supporting manufacturing in general is exactly the same as Solyndra is so incomprehensibly stupid I'm not sure how to react. We have a manufacturing problem in general in this country. Solyndra was "green energy" bullshit for that specific company.

207 Yet over half of Catholics tossed him their vote -- what is going on there? Most Catholics that treat their faith seriously - go to Church weekly, etc - voted against Obama. Unfortunately we make up a minority within our Communion, and those Catholics in Name Only are just as liberal as the secularists.

208 Posted by: laceyunderalls at January 04, 2012 02:31 PM (Angta)

The people in polls self identify.

209 http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=325324#c17003350 SFGoth, do you mean that seriously or is it a joke? if it's serious do you have anything on that? I can't tell anymore.

210 I cannot vote for Santorum.  He represents virtually every single negative talking point against Republicans.

Posted by: chemjeff

Oh, come on people.  Vowing never, ever to vote for a decent guy like Santorum against Obama makes you sound like a tard.

He's not exactly my cup of tea either, but if you don't prefer him to Obama you have no business calling yourself a conservative or a Republican.

Sack up.

 

211 The Feds are welcome to come into my bedroom if they'll promise to clean it.

212

"Why the fuck isn't Perry getting more traction from the not-Romney voters?"

These reasons have been beat to death, but Perry supporters do not seem to believe them.

Three Main Reasons:

1.) He is from Texas, and the rest of the country isn't going down that path anytime soon. Too many bad memories of the Bush Administraiton.

2.) He is not a good public speaker. Sure he can be folksy, but we are talking about the possible leader of the Free World here, and absolutuely everyone knows that this guy could go "Joe Biden."

3.) Stating that your past economic results are relevent without actually having a plan that you can articulate is a problem. Most of the country views him as a border governor that thinks one thing, but says another, whether it's true or not doesn't matter......it is the perception in the north....you know the people that Texans like to look down their nose at?   

 

213 182,

No, I think its ridiculous that you act as if it still the 1970s and liberal Catholicism is still ascendent.  Its not.  Do you actually listen and talk to the younger priests and laity?  They're overwhelmingly conservative, even mostly on economic issues.  Even in 2008, McCain still won the white Catholic vote, and that doesn't even separate out differences in adherence that would suggest church goers are even more Republican.  In 2010, the national House vote for white Catholics was 59-39 GOP.  Your head is stuck in another era.

214 Can't wait till this blows over in a few weeks and Santorum is forgotten.

215 197 190 According to Santorum, it's sodomy if, even in the missionary position (the only allowed by God), the woman feels any pleasure.

Posted by: SFGoth at January 04, 2012 02:29 PM (dZ756)

You think that's how he ended up with 6 kids?

Posted by: rockmom

Ignore the troll, rockmom.

216 During the first hundred or so debates no one (except political nerds) really paid attention to just how annoying he was. Now that people are focused on him, it's possible they will be turned off by him.

No this is exactly what I was talking about before. He's a whiny little bitch. Him and Bachmann were both throwing little tempter tantrums if they didn't finish their point on time and would ask for more time.

He's very off-putting. I think the VagVote will sit it out with him on the ticket. Luckily I don't think we have to worry about much. 

217 Can't wait till this blows over in a few weeks and Santorum is forgotten.

Romer '12!

218 EU reaches preliminary agreement to ban Iran oil By REUTERS 01/04/2012 17:58 Diplomats say principle of oil embargo has been agreed, but date for its implementation has not yet been set. I promise to stop hating liberals, and I'll get back to ya on the date that will start

219 >>>For people opposing government involvement in social issues: do you comprehend just how sick of a society we have become? If not, we just aren't living in the same universe. I don't want to live in an America where pop culture is debased and dumbed down, where the family does not exist, where the unborn are murdered at will, drug use is rampant, homosexual ideology is preached in our media and schools, unpatriotic traitorous fucktards like Ron Paul can even be considered as serious candidates, and the great traditions, beliefs, and practices of Christianity wither away. But I don't think I want to live in your preferred America, either. I think you have ideas about how force can be used to shape pop culture to your tastes. What a dreadful idea. I don't mind Santorum's manufacturing play. I think it's smart politically and I think it's actually a good policy idea.

220 >>>For people opposing government involvement in social issues: do you comprehend just how sick of a society we have become? If not, we just aren't living in the same universe. I don't want to live in an America where pop culture is debased and dumbed down, where the family does not exist, where the unborn are murdered at will, drug use is rampant, homosexual ideology is preached in our media and schools, unpatriotic traitorous fucktards like Ron Paul can even be considered as serious candidates, and the great traditions, beliefs, and practices of Christianity wither away.

I'm not thrilled about living in that America, no.

You know what I'd be even less thrilled about living in, though?  An America where THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT dictated morality to me, based on one particular religion (and whose interpretation of that religion, btw?) no less.

Here's the ugly truth: a society's culture moves along its own paths, and there is usually little if anything the government can do to affect it.  You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, you can't unring a bell, etc.  You have a problem with American culture and values?  Take it up with the people of America.  The government ain't gonna solve your problems, and the thought that it somehow can is (quite literally) the beginnings of fascism.

221 We may not have to worry about the candidate anyhow. His Majesty of Zero may just sign an executive order declaring the elections redudnant. Then all the "I won't vote for so and so if he/she is the candidate will have nothing to complain about.

222 Here's the ugly truth: a society's culture moves along its own paths, and there is usually little if anything the government can do to affect it. You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, you can't unring a bell, etc. You have a problem with American culture and values? Take it up with the people of America. The government ain't gonna solve your problems, and the thought that it somehow can is (quite literally) the beginnings of fascism. Posted by: Jeff B. at January 04, 2012 02:40 PM (hIWe1) Yeah that's true and well said

223 211 http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=325324#c17003350

SFGoth, do you mean that seriously or is it a joke?

if it's serious do you have anything on that?

I can't tell anymore. Posted by: ace

I'm kind of hoping it's a joke, but I'm kind of hoping it's not.  Maybe I'll research it.

224 @212  chemjeff doesn't call himself a conservative or republican....Mitt Romney supporters can't claim either.

225 I'm not comfortable with Santorum's naked declaration that he would use the government to pick winners and losers in the marketplace in terms of favoring manufacturing and disfavoring businesses that can't otherwise relocate, but I agree with Ace: it isn't bad politics.  It's the same impulse that drives Romney's China rhetoric (which plays extremely well with both the GOP base and moderates and even center-left types), you might have noticed.

By the way, I'd vote for Santorum if he got the nomination.  Wouldn't be a tough call.  I just think he'd be a terrible fit for the job, and also he'd have his ass handed to him by Obama.

226 Rick Santorum 2012! George W Bush Without the Warm Personality!

No thanks...a big, huge no thanks. I don't dislike him like I do some of the others, but another big government, "compassionate" conservative is exactly the last thing we need right now, especially since Santorum doesn't sound the least bit compassionate even when he's spouting about government programs to help anyone and everyone.

227 200, 209

Paul is right.  You have to factor out adherence, which is the biggest determinant of voting behavior.  Also, race is a major difference.  The difference between white and Latino Catholics is substantial.  The dirty secret is that Hispanics aren't as socially conservative as they are labeled.

228 I'm not at all offended that hard questions are being asked about Santorum. I attend Mass regularly and respect the Church's traditional teachings -- so I know that many of my fellow parishioners are alarmed that the former Senator would force his children to play with a dead fetus. While grieving is certainly a private, personal matter, but certain lines should not be crossed. This issue might well also drive away independents and moderates who are pro-choice but whose votes are still necessary in a general election.

229 This sounds to me like a whole lotta Iowa moonshine, and they're all pullin' from the same damn jug, Sonny.

230
another big government, "compassionate" conservative is exactly the last thing we need right now,

Well, though, is it the best choice we're getting?

231

You know what I'd be even less thrilled about living in, though?  An America where THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT dictated morality to me, based on one particular religion (and whose interpretation of that religion, btw?) no less.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Morality is being dictated to you by the media and public schools who tell people they should do whatever the fuck they want and expect no consequences when it inevitably backfires.

A functional society requires some sort of cohesion which only social conservatism can provide. The hyper-individualism, a product of the 1960s New Left, is killing us.

232 Face it: If you're pro-sodomy, you're pro-Obama.


Santorum 2012

233 Your head is stuck in another era.

No. I'm just surrounded by college priests that love them some social justice. They welcomed Obama and Kal Penn (snort) on the campus in 2008...twice I do believe.

These are the same ones that are leading the marches against deportations. We have those a lot here.

But yeah, I'm stuck in another era. I should be talking about the Soviet Empire. Because that's relevant to the 2012 election.

234 I'm kind of hoping it's a joke, but I'm kind of hoping it's not.  Maybe I'll research it.

So it's just BS...?

235

"Hispanics aren't as socially conservative as they are labeled."

BINGO!

The other dirty little secret is that Hispanics are far more willing the fundementally change the U.S. in favor of a more Socialist system, especially those not born and raised in the U.S. 

Living in the South West has really shown me that even Hispanics born and rasied in the U.S. have a loyalty to Mexico that often outweighs their loyalty to the U.S., which potentially could become very dangerous the more power this voting block gets.

236 And I'm not a Santorum supporter.  I think he is a flawed vessel for what he advocates and he has his fair share of deviations from conservative orthodoxy that haven't been publicized (think steel tariffs).  But I'm sick of people on a conservative website acting as if practicing my faith makes me a recruit for the Taliban.

237

For people opposing government involvement in social issues: do you comprehend just how sick of a society we have become? If not, we just aren't living in the same universe. I don't want to live in an America where pop culture is debased and dumbed down, where the family does not exist, where the unborn are murdered at will, drug use is rampant, homosexual ideology is preached in our media and schools, unpatriotic traitorous fucktards like Ron Paul can even be considered as serious candidates, and the great traditions, beliefs, and practices of Christianity wither away.

Posted by: Chris at January 04, 2012 02:34 PM (XGZYX)

You're right, you and I apparently aren't living in the same universe.

Thankfully.

238 Fuck off Midwest Catholic.

239 235

Depending on which university, you could be totally right.  I wouldn't doubt that personal experience.  Its just that the broader picture is considerably different.

240 Obligatory Geek Reference: Landru 2012 "You will be absorbed. Your individuality will merge into the unity of the good, and in your submergence into the common being of the Body, you will find contentment and fulfillment. You will experience the absolute good. " Obviously a parody of Santorum's anti-individualist stance, but come on, the original is a pretty damned creepy Elizabeth Warren-style screed.

241

@238

The issue isn't practicing your faith or what you believe. Don't take this topic so personal. The issue really is, that the Catholic church in America has morphed a little bit, to being so submissive and even helping to the Socialist movement, that many are being put off by it, and they just want to ensure that the Catholic Leadership in general is not a team member of the left, who people on the right beleive is actually their enemy. 

242 Wake up and smell the coffee. Morality is being dictated to you by the media and public schools who tell people they should do whatever the fuck they want and expect no consequences when it inevitably backfires. The media is not the state. It does not have the power of the gun or jail. Public schools are not the feds. If I don't like my school district, I can move neighborhoods or states. Santorum's problem is that he wants to NATIONALIZE morality. How the heck do you think you can get a common morality from rural Utah to the meat packing district of San Francisco - unless you grant absurd unfettered discretionary powers to the federal executive branch? And then what happens when the people who gain power in DC aren't the strong Catholics like Santorum, but rather a bunch of tree worshiping hippies (or worse)? They will have all sorts of powers to fuck with you, thanks to the judicial nominations and policies that will be put in place by Santorum.

243 But I'm sick of people on a conservative website acting as if practicing my faith makes me a recruit for the Taliban.

Jeez Louise, hyperbole much?

244 But I'm sick of people on a conservative website acting as if practicing my faith makes me a recruit for the Taliban. Yeah, the tension brewing with the rise of Santorum is starting to get a bit ugly. The funny thing is that I find myself in the minority on Santorum depending on what forum I'm on. On Catholic blogs I'm the one trying to - not exactly quell - but slightly damper the enthusiasm for Santorum (not that support for him is unanimous even on Catholic blogs), while on blogs such as Red State and here I'm running into the "big government conservative" attack.

245 Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. Don't Vote for Santorum!

246 Posted by: Zombie C.S. Lewis at January 04, 2012 02:59 PM Yeah, I'm sure the candidate that the author the Screwtape Letters would fear is Rick Santorum.

247 How the heck do you think you can get a common morality from rural Utah to the meat packing district of San Francisco

What meat-packing di, oh, right.
I don't think outside the box, even though I live over the hill from the meat-packing district.  ;->

248 247

Did you say 'trannies?'

249 Well, though, is it the best choice we're getting?

Posted by: nickless at January 04, 2012 02:46 PM (MMC8r)

I really, really hate saying this but...I think even Mutt would be better on the  overwhelming, oxygen-sucking, big government, statist stuff than Santorum would be. It's not that I think Romney would really cut the size and reach of gov't (unless forced to by Congress or circumstance), but I think the growth would at least slow some with him. Santorum sounds a lot like a guy who wants to put a gov't bureaucrat in every nook and cranny where there isn't one already (what few places are left).

250 Wow ... and I thought I was a bitter ex-Catholic.

251 >>>And I'm not a Santorum supporter. I think he is a flawed vessel for what he advocates and he has his fair share of deviations from conservative orthodoxy that haven't been publicized (think steel tariffs). But I'm sick of people on a conservative website acting as if practicing my faith makes me a recruit for the Taliban. I'm tired of this schtick. You come in here and advocate for what you want (which is state intervention in favor of your moral/relgiious preferences), and I tell you that I, as a person, do NOT want that, and you whine about being religiously persecuted. Apparently I'm just supposed to roll over for you, despite the fact you advocate a politics I don't like. Because... I don't know why. I think people decide that they are Objectively Right (and even God Said So) and ergo expect a certain level of deference to their privileged position in the hierarchy. The "True Conservative" caucus does something similar. It's the "expecting deference" and "not countenancing any backtalk" crap that pisses me off. You're not the boss of me, bro.

252 lincolntf @240: Get up on the wrong side of the bed today? Sorry, most Catholics aren't keen on necrophilia. They'll sit out the election rather than vote for that kind of a heretic, just like they will if Mormon Romney is the nominee.

253 Its just that the broader picture is considerably different.

I'm sorry but you're just wrong on this.

Re immigrations the church is so far off the reservation, a lot of west coast libs would be deemed conservative in the Church's eyes. Immigration is the one area in which the Republicans would really capitalize. If you listen to the Church, you'd think they're in bed with La Raza.

254

Living in the South West has really shown me that even Hispanics born and rasied in the U.S. have a loyalty to Mexico that often outweighs their loyalty to the U.S., which potentially could become very dangerous the more power this voting block gets.

Posted by: Stewie at January 04, 2012 02:51 PM (JMsOK)

Maybe you could suggest they move to Mexico, the narko state. They won't need to worry about who is running the place. The drug lords are running the place, while their "government" cowers. They can feel loyal when the AK-47 is pressed against the back of their or their kid's heads. After all, that AK-47 may be there courtesy of the Obama Administration.

255 246,

I've seen your name on other sites before.  I think we're in the same boat.  I'm conservative on everything.  I get that AoS is a more loose, fun atmosphere with hobos and Steel Panther links and what not.  And I like that fun zany stuff.  But I really don't think its conservatism anymore when you start chopping essential elements off.

256 Sorry, most Catholics aren't keen on necrophilia. Dude, seriously. fuck off. I

257 255,

I don't disagree with you.  The one issue on which the Church is actually out to sea on is immigration.  There is little recognition of the importance of national sovereignty.

258 and to be honest with you I don't think society has "become" as sick as some think. It has become sicker. But I believe that 90% of the rise in "sickness" is actually just attributable to your *awareness* of the sickness. With the media, and the Decline of Shame, people don't hide things they once did. Yes, it has become more sexually licentious. But a big chunk of the Sickness Quotient is just due to people seeing The Other Half for the first time.

259 Down with The Good, my immortal enemy! The Good must be destroyed!

260 Zunmo, are you saying they are And just a hint, they aren't persuaded by profanity.

261 I've seen your name on other sites before. I'm everywhere. Well, the reason I stick around this blog is because, despite my differences with some members of the community, generally this blog represents where I'm at politically more than any other secular blog. I guess I'm at odds with the general sentiment about Santorum being a big gov guy.

262 Don't talk to me about what "Catholics" will do, you pusillanimous puke. I am a Catholic. Go to hell.

263 I don't WANT all of our culture and entertainment to be "family friendly." I don't know if committed Christians want that, but sometimes, they talk like that -- that EVERYTHING we watch or read must be acceptable for all members of the family, from 3 to 103! I don't want that. YOU shouldn't want that either. Adults are not children and they have different tastes. Or at least they ought to.

264 Not sure Santorum will get the womens vote with his zero abortion, even in cases of rape, incest and maternal demise during labor. Pretty stern stuff. New Hampshire and S.C. will reveal if he has a chance as a national candidate. I doubt it.

265

Oh, come on.  CAN we stop with the threats to sit out the election that counts already?  Every time someone does that, they discredit themselves, the candidates they support, and the opposition to the candidates they oppose.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at January 04, 2012 02:02 PM (epBek)

Sorry, but this is no empty threat.  I will not vote if Santorum gets the nomination.  Period.  He is that toxic.

I would swallow my pride and vote for any of the other Republican candidates, even Mitt, hell, even Ron Paul, if that was the choice.  But Santorum?  Not a chance.  The man has stated explicitly that he stands against everything I stand for.  Sorry, but you don't get my vote by declaring yourself to be opposed to personal autonomy.

I don't care how good you are on foreign policy, I expect conservatives to work to get government out of my life.  Santorum has made it clear he's not interested in doing that.  That's how he lost his Senate seat by an 18 point margin in 2006.

266 Zunmo, are you saying they are And just a hint, they aren't persuaded by profanity. No, I'm saying that your representation of what Santorum did is disgusting. As for profanity - well when you completely disrespect a family that has gone through a profound loss and the manner in which they go through, that completely disgusts me.

267 Anyone who thinks we are at the dawn of an Apocalypse of Immorality just needs to open a history book to about... any random page.

268 Lincolntf, yes, I'm sure you're Catholic. That's why you use four-letter words when addressing a fellow believer. Do you volunteer at Planned Parenthood too?

269 270

I'm not a Catholic.  And you're a fucking prick, dickcheese.

270 Yes, and we're all sure that the guy who mocks families for the method in which they mourn the loss of their children (I notice, btw, that you used fetus before) really has his pulse on the feelings of real Catholics.

271

Posted by: ace at January 04, 2012 03:10 PM (nj1bB)

But Ace, before pron infiltrated our culture in the 1950's, America was an idyllic land, untainted by carnal sins and socialism...*Ken sarc*

I agree.  Some social conservatives want to take American society to a quasi-1950's era that never existed except in their own minds.  It wasn't Pleasantville (btw, that movie sucked). 

272 nickless, I will pray for you anyway. And for Zummo and Linclon.

273 Who was it that once cracked that Santorum was Latin for asshole?

274 >>>Wake up and smell the coffee. Morality is being dictated to you by the media and public schools who tell people they should do whatever the fuck they want and expect no consequences when it inevitably backfires. Oh God. This claim? Instead of getting the government out of the morality-promoting business, you just suggest it push your brand. >>A functional society requires some sort of cohesion which only social conservatism can provide. The hyper-individualism, a product of the 1960s New Left, is killing us. Fuck that crap. It doesn't need any "cohesion." People do not know strangers. I need no "cohesion" with a stranger. I need a series of laws to protect my body and property and enforcement of same, and the rule of contract, and so on. I do not need to know that all these strangers I only interact with on an economic level are "good people."

275 nickless, I will pray for you anyway. And for Zummo and Linclon.


Blow me.

And don't forget to mention accusing a family of necrophilia at your next confession, weasel.

276 I see Midwest Catholic has taken the sanctimonious route. For those that wonder, he's the type of Catholic that represents the unfortunate majority within the community. I'm guessing he takes the Church's positions on social issues about as seriously as most CINOs.

277 Yeah, I'm Catholic and I swear. I'm a real outlier.

278 God gave people Free Will to choose god or evil, but the government is meant to take that away?

279 Well I apologize if I got this nastiness ball rolling with my comment about not voting for a Catholic.

That said, where is Santorum's support? I'm not sure I've seen anyone on this blog that supports him (or even really likes the guy). On Twitter, I've only seen Brad Thor publicly support him (he campaigned for him in IA). I haven't even seen the 'well I guess I should look into him a bit more' from Twitter. I think everyone is of the belief he was a one-hit-wonder last night and is about to flame out.

280 Oh God. This claim? Instead of getting the government out of the morality-promoting business, you just suggest it push your brand. The entirety of the criminal law, and much of the civil law, is devoted to the morality-promoting business. One of the prime functions of government is to promote the brand. As are all of your arguments, including your argument regarding the proper role of government in promoting morality.

281 I am not a catholic, and I can see where Midwest Catholic would be comfortable sitting at a board of inquisition.

282 I agree. Some social conservatives want to take American society to a quasi-1950's era that never existed except in their own minds. It wasn't Pleasantville (btw, that movie sucked). Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at January 04, 2012 03:16 PM (9hSKh) It's more than that though. There are a lot of people, social conservative or not, who believe there was once a time where civil politics reigned, where the good guys always beat the bad guys, businesses weren't greedy, wars were nonexistent or quick and painless, and everything in general was great for America. There is a lot of people who want to go back to that time and not have to think about debt, the constitution, decline, etc. It's not just about social engineering, there are a lot of people who want to vote someone in that will change enough to allow them to tune out of the process.

283 Again, there's a difference between decrying hyper individualism and necessarily suggesting that the state needs to intervene in all our affairs. Admittedly Santorum is a little bit more nationalistic in his approach than I like, and that's why I continue to prefer Perry over him. But we need to be careful to differentiate between general comments about the culture and calls for specific policies.

284 269 Anyone who thinks we are at the dawn of an Apocalypse of Immorality just needs to open a history book to about... any random page. Posted by: ace

///

"In the Beginning...."

285 >>>The entirety of the criminal law, and much of the civil law, is devoted to the morality-promoting business. One of the prime functions of government is to promote the brand. As are all of your arguments, including your argument regarding the proper role of government in promoting morality. Bullshit. You take a law against murder and you try to claim "Oh that's just the same as an anti-sodomy law." Um, no it isn't. And the law against murder isn't about morality. It's about not wanting to be murdered.

286 There is a lot of people who want to go back to that time and not have to think about debt, the constitution, decline, etc. It's not just about social engineering, there are a lot of people who want to vote someone in that will change enough to allow them to tune out of the process. I've never read a bigger pile of pure bunk in my life. The people that I encounter that support Santorum couldn't be any more opposite than your caricature if they tried.

287 Short answer: No. Long answer: Well, Santorum isn't a libertarian conservative. He's not an isolationist or a doctrinaire free-trader, and he doesn't stake a to-each-his-own stance on hot-button social issues. This Mike Huckabee comparison is absurd, though. Mike Huckabee signed more tax hikes in his decade as Arkansas governor than Bill Clinton did in twelve years. Huckabee fought for and signed a statewide workplace smoking ban. Huckabee's signature legislative initiative in Arkansas was a bill that banned snack and soda machines in public schools for the good of the children. Despite his stint as a Baptist preacher, Mike Huckabee was never some theocrat, enforcing Conservative Christian morality on the unwilling citizens of Arkansas. He didn't have to be, really; Arkansas is already an overwhelmingly socially conservative state. Huckabee wore the robe of Conservative Christianity because, outside of Little Rock and Conway, that's what sells in Arkansas. He's a pure opportunist, a corrupt, back-stabbing, political creature. Huckabee is a fat asshole who had stomach-reduction surgery then pretended that he shed all that weight through diet and exercise in order to make public health his signature issue in preparation for a national run. Santorum may be a moral scold who favors the manufacturing sector, but he's not Mike Huckabee. Just because both men oppose abortion and gay marriage (along with the majority of the Republican party) and are closely associated with a Christian denomination does not mean that they are somehow equivalent.

288 285 Again, there's a difference between decrying hyper individualism and necessarily suggesting that the state needs to intervene in all our affairs. Admittedly Santorum is a little bit more nationalistic in his approach than I like, and that's why I continue to prefer Perry over him. But we need to be careful to differentiate between general comments about the culture and calls for specific policies.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at January 04, 2012 03:24 PM (IGkEP)

Some people can take a single comment and derive War And Peace from it. We are all guilty of that from time to time, under the right circumstances.

289 @85 With all due respect, you can't trust a damn thing Rush says

290

A functional society requires some sort of cohesion which only social conservatism can provide. The hyper-individualism, a product of the 1960s New Left, is killing us.

Posted by: Chris

 

You are absolutely right.  The 'freer' our morals have got, the weaker our families, the bigger and less functional our government.

But.

The people who are pointing out that you can't just decree a change in morality are right also.  You have to be able to cajole people, persuade people, and make messy baby-steps compromises that won't always be very principled or coherent.  That's just what living a democracy is about.

Santorum's problem is that he is too consistent and too visionary really.  He can be helpful, very helpful, as part of the team, but probably not as the standard-bearer.

291 and to be honest with you I don't think society has "become" as sick as some think.

It has become sicker. But I believe that 90% of the rise in "sickness" is actually just attributable to your *awareness* of the sickness.

With the media, and the Decline of Shame, people don't hide things they once did.

Yes, it has become more sexually licentious. But a big chunk of the Sickness Quotient is just due to people seeing The Other Half for the first time.

Posted by: ace at January 04, 2012 03:06 PM (nj1bB)

This.

292 Well I apologize if I got this nastiness ball rolling with my comment about not voting for a Catholic.

De nada.

293 Some people can take a single comment and derive War And Peace from it. We are all guilty of that from time to time, under the right circumstances. I think the problem is that we live in a society where everything is politicized, therefore every comment is deemed a political statement suggesting a policy preference. In the era of big government, it's almost inconceivable that anyone could be promoting a certain point of view without necessarily advocating that his position be enshrined in legislation.

294 I dunno.  If I'm going to give a real look at a legislator, I think I'd rather go with Gingrich. 

295 Off, sock!

296 274 nickless, I will pray for you anyway. And for Zummo and Linclon. Posted by: Midwest Catholic at January 04, 2012 03:18 PM (Ugx1D) Sorry, the Piety high-horse ran off when you were busy lying and hurling vulgar and false accusations at others. Tends to happen, Joe.

297

Santorum's problem is that he wants to NATIONALIZE morality.

Evidence, please.

298 Bullshit. You take a law against murder and you try to claim "Oh that's just the same as an anti-sodomy law." Um, no it isn't. And the law against murder isn't about morality. It's about not wanting to be murdered. You have it precisely backwards. Those who argue that sodomy shouldn't be criminalized are really saying it isn't immoral -- and would counter than murder should be criminalized because it is the ultimate act of immorality.

299 I've never read a bigger pile of pure bunk in my life. The people that I encounter that support Santorum couldn't be any more opposite than your caricature if they tried. Posted by: Paul Zummo at January 04, 2012 03:27 PM (IGkEP) I'm not talking about Santorum's supporters, I'm talking about voters in general. Do you really think people would be against having a King if they knew he would fix all of the problems we have right now?

300 There is no way in hell I would vote for a practicing Catholic unless he specifically denounced the Marxism running rampant in the organization of his Church. And how likely is that? Nope, this former Catholic would rather vote for the Mormon.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at January 04, 2012 02:00 PM (Angta)

---

Wow. 

301 Midwest Catholic What's your position on the death penalty?

302 Santorum might not be worse than Obama in one term, but he's worse long term in my opinion. I don't need anyone claiming to argue for my side being for limited personal autonomy. No thank you. We got in this worrying about debate performance. Look at what we're pushing now. This guy is the absolute worst of the bunch.

303

I'm tired of this schtick. You come in here and advocate for what you want (which is state intervention in favor of your moral/relgiious preferences), and I tell you that I, as a person, do NOT want that, and you whine about being religiously persecuted.

You're just talking in circles here.  Chris P.'s entire point is that traditional morality isn't just some kind of subjective personal preference.

If you've looked at his actual argument, he's been saying that a strong religious/moral base is necessary to the function of a free society.  He hasn't advocated any particular set of laws.

And y'all have responded by accusing him of wanting to impose his religion on you . . .  like the Taliban.

304 I'm not talking about Santorum's supporters, I'm talking about voters in general. Do you really think people would be against having a King if they knew he would fix all of the problems we have right now? Admittedly I was a bit hasty in responding to you, and upon a closer reading of your original comment I don't think you're that far off base. My apologies.

305 Get up on the wrong side of the bed today? Sorry, most Catholics aren't keen on necrophilia. They'll sit out the election rather than vote for that kind of a heretic, just like they will if Mormon Romney is the nominee.

Posted by: Midwest Catholic

 

Welcome, concerned conservative Christian.

306 Santorum is talking about "solidarity"--which, as you recall, was a major factor in taking down the Commies in Eastern Europe. "Solidarity", properly understood, is NOT Socialism.

307 There is no way in hell I would vote for a practicing Catholic unless he specifically denounced the Marxism running rampant in the organization of his Church. And how likely is that? Nope, this former Catholic would rather vote for the Mormon. Posted by: laceyunderalls at January 04, 2012 02:00 PM (Angta) There are a lot of Bishops and priests who are conservatives and are against Obamacare on social AND economic grounds, but their job is to be a minister first and being that outspoken on economic issues would be to the detriment of their vocation.

308 Sorry, but this is no empty threat.  I will not vote if Santorum gets the nomination.  Period.  He is that toxic.

Posted by: Caiwyn

If it were any empty threat, it would be slightly less retarded.

Yeah, four more years of Obama will be awesome for the cause of small government.  Did you hear Small Government is planning to endorse Obama any day now?  True story.

309 Admittedly I was a bit hasty in responding to you, and upon a closer reading of your original comment I don't think you're that far off base. My apologies. Posted by: Paul Zummo at January 04, 2012 03:35 PM (IGkEP) No offense taken.

310 And I’m not talking that homo stuff, but good, wholesome anal with catholic girls.  Posted by: jwest at January 04, 2012 01:57 PM (8moZm) Posted by: Y-not, dirty (sanchez?) papist at January 04, 2012 03:32 PM (5H6zj) I find the juxtaposition of the above two comments... Disturbing.

311 >>>If you've looked at his actual argument, he's been saying that a strong religious/moral base is necessary to the function of a free society. He hasn't advocated any particular set of laws. I'm pretty certain I know the laws he'd be interested in. It's not hard to guess. I was in an argument on Twitter with a lefty who wanted to be my Life Coach and pass laws to encourage people to live in the cities (and discourage them from having cars and living in suburbs). But I have a lot of rightwingers signing up to be my Life Coach too. I don't know any of you people. Not really. Why would I assume you are so wise to make for a good Life Coach? There is so little modesty in this area, which is surprising, as Pride is called out specifically as a major sin. But you can't make an omlet without breaking a few seven deadly sins.

312 Admittedly I was a bit hasty in responding to you, and upon a closer reading of your original comment I don't think you're that far off base. My apologies. You are forgiven.

313 269 Anyone who thinks we are at the dawn of an Apocalypse of Immorality just needs to open a history book to about... any random page.

Posted by: ace

 

I see what you're saying, Ace, but stuff like Gay Marriage IS historicall unprecedented.  Abortion rates post-Roe are historically high for America and illegitimacy rates are also at an all time Anglo-American high.  Access to pornography and the pornization of mainstream culture is not, but it is higher than it has been in the past century or so.

Honestly, you and Chris P. probably aren't as far apart as you think when you get down to specifics.  He probably doesn't want government cameras in your bathroom to monitor your masturbation frequency and you probably don't really oppose reasonable steps that help parents raise kids morally without having to retreat from society.  You've been pretty bitchy queen about this stuff lately, but a lot of that I attribute to the disappointments of the primary process.

314

You are absolutely right.  The 'freer' our morals have got, the weaker our families, the bigger and less functional our government.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream

Really?  So if we live in a socially-rigid and very narrow society that looks like a satire of the 1950s, we'll go back to small government?  You must be referring to a time before the 1930's because we got pretty big government back then, and that was long before gays, anywhere, had the right to destroy your marriage by having one of their own.

Ace is right (that this may be more a matter of awareness than quantity), although he fails to note one of the basic principles of the scientific method -- you have to control all variable except one, or you cannot determine what is acting upon what and how.

If morals begot small government, explain the USSR?  Abortion, prostitution, and homosexuality were illegal.  You couldn't rent porn. You were required to show up for work on time on pain of criminal sanction.  It had strong borders -- very few people were trying to get into the USSR.  Funny, but my reading of Orwell and Rand (yes, I've read both) is that they're criticism of communism involved the loss of individuality, not that the trains didn't run on time.

315 What this thread represents is one of the fault-lines in the conservative movement. There are those that are, if not not exactly acolytes of Ayn Rand, at least sympathetic to her. On the other you've those who are revolted by her philosophy. What the Randians don't get about us anti-Randians is that we're not necessarily suggesting that government intrude in all social affairs. It's just that the type of individualism promoted by the likes of Rand actually leads to more government intrusion in our affairs, because when we become nothing more than atomized individuals, a lot of the social networks that bind us together as local communities rip apart, opening up space for government to intervene in order to take the place of those networks.

316 No Religious test for Office is a key founding principle (except for those damned mackerel-snappers).

317 I'm kind of with Mark Steyn when he suggests that culture trumps economics, and a limited government philosophy is doomed unless the culture is based on a strong family.  For that reason I'd probably go Santorum over Romney assuming I have the choice by the time my primary rolls around.

318

"With all due respect, you can't trust a damn thing Rush says about any of the candidates at this point. "

 

that's true, like a lot of conservs it's only about getting "them" out and getting "us" in, no thought whatsoever about how both parties are screwing us all over so badly, no concept of anything but "R"s vs "D"s

a pox on both Houses! Vote them all out.

 

319 Posted by: Midwest Catholic at January 04, 2012 03:42 PM (bN5ZU) Dude, really, just go fuck off. Although, I commend you because I think you've managed to annoy both the secularists and the more religious among us. So kudos.

320 But I have a lot of rightwingers signing up to be my Life Coach too.

I don't know any of you people. Not really. Why would I assume you are so wise to make for a good Life Coach?

There is so little modesty in this area, which is surprising, as Pride is called out specifically as a major sin.

But you can't make an omlet without breaking a few seven deadly sins.

Posted by: ace at January 04, 2012 03:42 PM (nj1bB)

I shall gift to you my Standard Helpful Advise (worth every penny, too)

DON'T FUCK UP

Yer welcome!

321 Zummo, that just proves that your brand of Catholicism IS secularism. As is your foul language.

322 Really? So if we live in a socially-rigid and very narrow society that looks like a satire of the 1950s, we'll go back to small government? You must be referring to a time before the 1930's because we got pretty big government back then, and that was long before gays, anywhere, had the right to destroy your marriage by having one of their own. Ace is right (that this may be more a matter of awareness than quantity), although he fails to note one of the basic principles of the scientific method -- you have to control all variable except one, or you cannot determine what is acting upon what and how. If morals begot small government, explain the USSR? Abortion, prostitution, and homosexuality were illegal. You couldn't rent porn. You were required to show up for work on time on pain of criminal sanction. It had strong borders -- very few people were trying to get into the USSR. Funny, but my reading of Orwell and Rand (yes, I've read both) is that they're criticism of communism involved the loss of individuality, not that the trains didn't run on time. Posted by: SFGoth at January 04, 2012 03:44 PM (dZ756) That's why some posters have used the term HYPER individualism.

323 Zummo, that just proves that your brand of Catholicism IS secularism. Whatever, moron. Just remember that you have to sign your next check to Planned Parenthood or else they can't deposit it.

324 I was in an argument on Twitter with a lefty
Posted by: ace

Just get to the g-damn punchline, will ya Ace???

325 My problem with Santorum to date has been that he just doesn't come across as Presidential. However, he certainly gave one hell of a heartfelt, conservative speech last night. His kiss with his wife was the most authentic show of affection from a politician for a loved one I ever saw; that scored points with me... You could just see those 2 really are true "partners" thru life. You know, I'll wait to make a final decision on this guy until the MSM and Romney do the inevitable Ace-sitting-on-the-throne black smear job (that's a fecal reference) on Santorum, and have a chance to see how well he weathers it. I still wish he'd control his facial expressions better, so he didn't always look on the verge of tears, though.

326 I'm pretty certain I know the laws he'd be interested in. It's not hard to guess.

Posted by: ace

Uh, yes it is.  You know that old thing about assumptions?  Still applies if you're a drunk moron who Blogs While Bitchy.

Chris P. probably is against gay marriage and abortion.  Maybe supports DADT.  Thinks local governments should be able to have prayers and limit porn on a local basis.  Cry me a river.  Maybe you oppose that, and there are good arguments against it for sure, but if that makes you panic and start quarrelling with your commenters, its not your brain you're thinking with. 

Honestly your whole 'hands off my body' schtick is getting tantrum-like.  I mean, ewwww.

327 I don't know any of you people. Not really. Why would I assume you are so wise to make for a good Life Coach? *BURP!* Why NOT??

328 Whatever, moron. Just remember that you have to sign your next check to Planned Parenthood or else they can't deposit it. When I'm protesting outside the clinic, I'll remember to pray that your sister changes her mind before she walks in.

329 Of course, deer-in-headlights Perry is extremely presidential. I mean, what we really need is a POTUS who can't take that 3AM call without being overwhelmed, baffled and forgetting your own name and curving into a crying ball of absent-mindness for hours.

330

316, SFGoth,

your main logical failure is the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

Functioning private morality (including but very much not limited to enough sexual morality to promote family) is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a free society, IMHO.

Also a good deal of your facts about the USSR are off (place was practically abortion central, e.g.), but that's beside the point.

331 My problem with Santorum to date has been that he just doesn't come across as Presidential. Posted by: CoolCzech at January 04, 2012 03:52 PM (niZvt) True, his image makes him look like someone you'd have a round of golf with or a beer with, but he looks more like someone who be your local high school basketball coach, not a President. If I thought there was even a 1% chance he could win against Obama, I'd be voting for him in my state's primary, but I doubt it is a 1% chance.

332

I find it ironic that Perry went even more extreme SoCon in the Iowa run-ups.  Guess we'll have to vote for Dr. Paul or else Rick Santorum will be inserting government tripwires in our anuses!

I kid, I kid.

333 I have a feeling that the "Midwest" means Madison, Chicago or Detroit and that "Catholic" means Unitarian Universalist.

334 I think Paul and Midwest Catholic are going to have to challenge themselves to a duel... should the weapon of choice be Foils or plastic Star Wars lightsabers?

335 I find it ironic that Perry went even more extreme SoCon in the Iowa run-ups. Guess we'll have to vote for Dr. Paul or else Rick Santorum will be inserting government tripwires in our anuses! I guess it's all okay because he didn't really mean it.

336 should the weapon of choice be Foils or plastic Star Wars lightsabers? Plastic Star Wars lightsabers. Duh.

337 " Some social conservatives want to take American society to a quasi-1950's era that never existed except in their own minds." i hear this criticism often but usually from libs who seek to propogate their view of the '50s as a dark age. some imaginative ones use the same template when discussing the '80s. i can't expect millennial kids to be interested in my countering of what they learn in school: homelessness was rampant, aids was everywhere, USSR reformed only by the grace of Gorby's enlightenment, Iran/Contra brought down a president... nostalgia does plague memories, but evidence of regression can be found in comparison of previous times and now. Facts are stubborn things and all that.

338 332

316, SFGoth,

your main logical failure is the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

Functioning private morality (including but very much not limited to enough sexual morality to promote family) is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a free society, IMHO.

Also a good deal of your facts about the USSR are off (place was practically abortion central, e.g.), but that's beside the point.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream

///

Yeah?  And who gets to define "functioning private morality"?  Huh?  Oh, wait, I forgot -- God.  Not your god, or your God, or Your God, but "God", the one true deity that *everyone* of any worth knows exists and His Word is in the Bible, you know, the one written by God in English.  Oh, and we need Rick Santorum's morality to enable a *free* society? 

Sorry.  Not buying it.

339 i hear this criticism often but usually from libs who seek to propogate their view of the '50s as a dark age. some imaginative ones use the same template when discussing the '80s. i can't expect millennial kids to be interested in my countering of what they learn in school: homelessness was rampant, aids was everywhere, USSR reformed only by the grace of Gorby's enlightenment, Iran/Contra brought down a president... LOL, it IS hilarious the conception young folks can have of the not-so-distant past. One young guy on TV referred to the Seventies - the doped up, coked up, hyper-sexualized "If you want my body, come on sugar tell me so!" SEVENTIES - as an "innocent time." I still giggle anytime I remember that.

340 off, sock. Look, since a President Santorum would have zero chance of stoppimg anal sex, teen sex, unwed motherhood, or any other perversion some of us here are so apparently emtionally attached to... Why are we getting hysterical over a non-issue? What Santorum said amounds to a trite truism ("No man is an island!"). Holy Crap! Cats and Dogs Living Together! This man must be stopped at all costs!!

341

CoolCzech,

true, but people get hysterical around election time.  It's the perils of not blogging drunk.

342 I want 2012 to be mostly economics. You wont get that with santorum. He is a flash in the pan. I pray Perry does well Saturday to get a second look.

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at January 04, 2012 02:05 PM (FKQng)

Jesus, if you lived in Iowa you know which candidate was yakking up his faith, barking about the sanctity of marriage,  vowing to protect our "values." CONSTANTLY.

It was Perry.  In the mail, on the phone, on the TV.  Constantly.  In Iowa, he was everything you guys say you don't want.  Santorum was actually far better tying the themes of social conservatism to our economic situation, without being as explicitly pandering as Perry was.

Were any of you subject to the Perry campaign at all?  Russ?  WTF?

343 At least Santorum dodged this bullet... Whew. You never know what she might say.

344

Caustic,

no joke.  I'm not super excited about Santorum for the reasons I lay out upstream, but too many folks here are working off of a caricature that better describes their own candidate Perry to the extent it describes anyone at all.

345 I am not super excited about Santorum either, but I do see a known commodity I could trust more than Romney who hasn't failed the test, at least not yet.

346 What Santorum said amounds to a trite truism ("No man is an island!"). Holy Crap! Cats and Dogs Living Together! This man must be stopped at all costs!!

Yeah but there are quite a few people who are terrified of social conservatism, like they're going to outlaw fun or something.

347

Several comments upthread bash Santorum for his support of Arlen Specter, and ask why he would do that.  He stated his reasons in an interview on Beck's radio show yesterday.  This article explains it better than I can.

http://tinyurl.com/84dg4xb .  Link is to LA Times article.

348 Oh, with regard to the LA Times link.  Skip down to about paragraph 8.

349 a reelection loss can't be good on your resume.<<< I know, right?

350 a reelection loss can't be good on your resume.<<<

I know, right?

Posted by: Winston Churchill at January 04, 2012 05:45 PM (AYfPj)

That's why we quit Massachusetts and began running for President immediately!

351 349

Several comments upthread bash Santorum for his support of Arlen Specter, and ask why he would do that.  He stated his reasons in an interview on Beck's radio show yesterday.  This article explains it better than I can.

--------

Please research as you'll find Rick Santorum has changed his reason several times on why he supported Arlen Specter over Pat Toomey.  I don't believe what a candidate says while they're running for office.  I look at what they've said in the past.  None of them are logical as Mr. Toomey would have been a 100% conservative vote.  Specter had a 20 year record of party disloyalty.

Rick Santorum's latest excuse is that Arlen would support conservative choices for the Supreme Court.  Did he?  NO. Remember Bork? Remember him 2 days after the election Santorum helped him win saying President Bush better not bring any pro-life judges before the judiciary committee as he'd vote against?  Remember Specter saying any judges brought forth better believe in Roe vs. Wade?

What did WE end up with?

Specter turned Democrat. Specter voted for Obamacare.  What's in Obamacare?  The very same thing, Santorum claims he was protecting.

Regardless of Santorum's numerous "excuses", no one ever asks the next question, "But wasn't Arlen Specter running against a true conservative who would have definitely given you the vote?"  Santorum is banking on those outside of PA not knowing it was Toomey (and about Toomey's conservatism) and guaranteed conservative votes both socially and fiscally.

No. Rick Santorum supported and ran commercials for Arlen Specter even fighting against grassroots conservatives because he thought it would boost his own career and to cozy up to Bush, plain and simple.

352

There's a role for a big government. Some big things only a big government can do--secure a nation's borders, for example. Or provide a stable currency. Or establish a national energy policy. Or any number of responsibilities the current government has abrogated.

Instead, we have a government whose notion of a big idea is telling me what light bulbs I can and cannot buy.

353 353 349

Several comments upthread bash Santorum for his support of Arlen Specter, and ask why he would do that.  He stated his reasons in an interview on Beck's radio show yesterday.  This article explains it better than I can.

--------

addition to my post above at #353:

Tons of remarks & actions of Specter's, Santorum had to have known:

http://tinyurl.com/69khz

A preview:

The National Review exposed Specter as “The Worst Republican Senator” in a prominent September 1, 2003 cover story. According to National Review,”Specter “is not a team player…is an abortion rights absolutist, a dogged advocate of racial preferences, a bitter foe of tax reform, a firm friend of the International Criminal Court.”

And:

Specter announced a pro-abortion litmus test for the president’s judicial nominees. Specter claims that Roe v. Wade is “inviolate” and insists that “nobody can be confirmed today who does not agree with it.”

Santorum had to know: Arizona Right to life and the National Right to life were some of those "grassroots" trying to stop Arlen Specter and trying to get Toomey elected.

354

Posted by: Tricianc at January 04, 2012 05:56 PM (gqG91)

Okay.  I don't have a lot of time to spend personally doing research, but I'll  watch the vetting process closely if Santorum manages to stay afloat beyond the NH primary.  However,

Santorum says Specter DID fend off Dem efforts to prevent nomination of both Roberts and Alito to SCOTUS, and that without that support, neither would likely have gotten on.  He (Santorum) says he figures that having the influence of those two justices for approx. the next 30 years was a pretty good tradeoff.

We probably all agree there's no perfect candidate.  Considering that we're facing armegeddon no matter who's POTUS the next 4 yrs, I'm surprised ANYONE is willing to run for the office.  I doubt even the SCoAMF really wants the job/blame.  I'm looking for the candidate who's most likely to tell us the truth about the situation, help us prepare for the worst, convince us that our chances for survival are better if we stand together, and find a way to hold us together when the SHTF.

Anyone of these people would be better than the current Divider in Chief.

355

"There's a role for a big government. big things only a big government can do--secure a nation's borders, for example. Or provide a stable currency. Or establish a national energy policy. Or any number of responsibilities the current government has abrogated.

Instead, we have a government whose notion of a big idea is telling me what light bulbs I can and cannot buy."

No I'm sorry, but there is NO role for big government.

356 So...you saying Santorum is actually a pro abortion hustler or something? 

It is actually true that Specter did play a major role in getting Roberts and Alito their current roles on the Court.  I do not doubt it had to be a difficult decision backing Specter over Toomey.  He was pressured by Rove and the White House and ultimately took a ton of heat for supporting the President and backing Specter.  If Toomey loses in the general election the GOP doesn't control the Senate and those two nominations are in doubt.  But that's politics.  Sometimes you have to make difficult choices.

357 So if we live in a socially-rigid and very narrow society that looks like a satire of the 1950s, we'll go back to small government? <<< I can never understand why people are so f'n afraid of the 50s. You didn't even need a passport to go to Mexico then.

358

The dirt is starting to surface on Santorum.

The AccuWeather/US Weather Service brou-ha-ha is just the start.

Crew had  him as one of the most corrupt politicans of 2006, a pretty good vintage year for corruption. .

359 John Milton put it this way: "License they mean when they cry, Liberty! For who loves that, must first be wise and good. "Leaonard Read put it this way: "It is incorrect to think of liberty as synonymous with unrestrained action. Liberty does not and cannot include any action, regardless of sponsorship, which lessens the liberty of a single human being. To argue contrarily is to claim that liberty can be composed of liberty negations, patently absurd. Unrestraint carried to the point of impairing the liberty of others is the exercise of license, not liberty. To minimize the exercise of license is to maximize the area of liberty. Ideally, government would restrain license, not indulge in it; make it difficult, not easy; disgraceful, not popular. A government that does otherwise is licentious, not liberal." These men bracket who, perhaps, said it best, namely Laura Ingalls Wilder in ch. 8 of her Little Town on the Prairie: "The crowd was scattering away then, but Laura stood stock still. Suddenly she had a completely new thought. The Declaration and the song came together in her mind, and she thought: God is America's king.
She thought: Americans won't obey any king on earth. Americans are free. That means they have to obey their own consciences. No king bosses Pa; he has to boss himself. Why (she thought), when I am a little older, Pa and Ma will stop telling me what to do, and there isn't anyone else who has a right to give me orders. I will have to make myself be good.
Her whole mind seemed to be lighted up by that thought. This is what it means to be free. It means, you have to be good. "Our father's God, to Thee, author of liberty..." The laws of Nature and of Nature's God endow you with a right to life and liberty. Then you have to keep the laws of God, for God's law is the only thing that gives you a right to be free." Or, it's not legal, it's Divine.

360 Don't rip the Tea Partiers. They took a look at Bachman, she was injected with tardisil. Then we looked at Perry, and he looked like an idiot. Then we looked at Cain, and outside of economic matters, well he looked like an idiot. Then we took a look at Gingrich and figured out he know how to talk the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. Where were we supposed to go from there? Romney? Huntsman's middle finger? If Perry hadn't looked like a boob he would be in Tier 1 category giving Romney the fight of his life. After the carpet bombing by the media, yeah, the Tea Party wants to stand up for someone who looks and sounds intelligent.

361 This has to be one of the nastiest threads in a while. Some of you have acted shamefully.

When you starting spouting off things like "I won't vote for a practicing Catholic," you must ask yourself one thing: "Am I an extremist?"

Same goes for those acting like people who are concerned for the moral health of the culture want to start raiding your bedroom for porn and condoms.

That said, I do think Santorum is extreme in his social beliefs, and his less-than-sterling record as a fiscal conservative is off-putting, as well. He wouldn't stand a chance against Obama - the general election would instantly become about social issues. We need someone who can keep the election focused on the economy, where Obama is the most vulnerable.

I'll still vote for him if he's the nominee, though.

362 Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! However, how could we communicate?