1 >> John Weaver, Moron (And Not the Good Kind) FIFY

2 How does this help Rick Perry?

3 Huntsman lost me by slobbering over Obama as a leader in his resignation letter.

4 Republicans and strategy don't seem to be mixing well at all this campaign (except Romney).

5 There is no one to blame but Huntsman. He went full donk when he went to China as Obama's fluffer.

6 How does this help Rick Perry?

Guess everyone has given up on Perry now.

7 Huntsman never had me.  I question the sanity of anyone who would willingly go and work for the Indonesian Imbecile.

8 Is John Weaver to blame for Huntsman's flame-out?

Can you call it a "flame-out" when Huntsman never appeared as more than a blip on the radar? He didn't even make as strong a showing as the Four Non-Roms (Bachmann, Perry, Cain, Newt).

9 Huntsman never had me. I question the sanity of anyone who would willingly go and work for the Indonesian Imbecile. Posted by: Truck Monkey at January 16, 2012 12:13 PM (jucos) And also being an Isolationist.

10 So, is being a moron a good thing or a bad thing?  I'm confused.

11 >>>Can you call it a "flame-out" when Huntsman never appeared as more than a blip on the radar? It's not really a flame-out, you're right; the engine never started. But on paper -- conservative *governor* (I still care about that stuff) with foreign policy experience? That's kind of the holy grail. Someone who really wants to be a serious contender for the presidency would be a governor, then get himself elected senator and get on the foreign relations committee so he can check off both boxes, executive, and with fp experience. I think George Allen was trying that in 2006.

12 So, is being a moron a good thing or a bad thing? I'm confused. Posted by: OCBill at January 16, 2012 12:16 PM (YJvVE) In the outside a moron is a moron and often a democrat. Here a moron is a badge of honor

13

At least he dropped out. Perry staying in is pure sabotage at this point, and I don't have the slightest doubt he's doing it at the behest of Romney.

The depressing thing about the primary coming up is that it could be won if Gingrich dropped out and supported Santorum, but he's too full of himself to do that. So we'll get mittens after all.

14 Then the Republican Party faced a choice: Did Obama's election raise real questions about the party's future and identity, as Governor Huntsman told any reporter who would dial the 801 area code from Washington? Or was it, as figures like Haley Barbour argued, merely a moment that would pass? Then Huntsman contemplated an alternate future for Republican Party. They would be modernizers and reformers, less hostile to the role of an activist government that had been vindicated in Obama's election, and finally untethered from the fantasy of a pure Constitutionalist past worshipped by fringe figures like Rep. Ron Paul.

“It’s just a matter of enduring the early days of transformation – it’s never going to be pretty and it’s never going to be fun to watch it play out beyond a pure entertainment level,” Huntsman told us back then.

Unfortunately, Obama ruined the "party" for Huntsman by overplaying the "activist government" hand.

15 I think George Allen was trying that in 2006.

Posted by: ace at January 16, 2012 12:17 PM (nj1bB)

But he said macacca.  Unacceptable. 

16 If you're going to play Monday morning quarterback, it might as well be done on Monday morning.

17 This is all on Huntsman. Huntsman reminds me of the rich kid-who no one had the guts to tell them that-picking your nose-or dropping Mandarin at random-is uncool. Huntsman couldn't figure that out. Zero common sense.

18 I remember some pundit saying how hiring Jon Huntsman as an ambassador proved how smart Obama was, as iit would discredit Huntsman if he decided to run, since he would be a major challenge to Obama. Personally, since Romney has always been the heir apparent, it does not make any difference. I rarely watch Fox anymore because even they have become "official fact checkers and cheerleaders" for Romney. To save all the Romneybots the trouble, yes, some of us have not yet given up hope on Perry.

19 >>>. Perry staying in is pure sabotage at this point, Yes I have felt the same way about Santorum and Bachmann staying in when they were at 1%. I guess though that they're allowed to stay in at 1%, but my guy isn't.

20 Perry staying in is pure sabotage at this point,

Sabotage of what?

21 >>>Huntsman reminds me of the rich kid-who no one had the guts to tell them that-picking your nose-or dropping Mandarin at random-is uncool. What was that all about? Crazy. I think it's neat that someone can speak a foreign language, but I'm not so impressed by it that I want the idiot to keep talking up how he can do something that a billion and a half people can do much, much, much better. (A slate piece, I think, explained that he had the language skills of about a sophomore in college or something. Not fluent.)

22 But he said macacca. Unacceptable. ***** Especially when you are from the South, and/or have an accent. Yesterday's macacca= today's _____ rock. If the current occupant of the White House is historic.... Double the macacca effect.

23

Lol, it doesn't matter what song Palin sang, the libs would go nuts telling us it was  the worst moment in their life and no one accused Huntsman of murder!  That's what most of us like about her, she drives them insane.  They love to hate her.

As for Huntsman, no one cared and he was never a real consideration except by eggheads.

24 How does 1% sabotage anything?

25 The problem with Huntsman is that I'm pretty sure he ran based on his natural inclinations.  It's rather ironic given that they're both Mormons from big-name Mormon families, but Huntsman has always struck me as the bizarro-Romney: a guy whose record is only as "conservative" as it is because he was lucky enough to be the governor of the most Republican state in the nation.  But notice that once he got his second term, out came a sheaf of left-wing/moderate 'deviations.'

So it's one thing to blame John Weaver -- and yes, Weaver is a mini-SCOAMF all his own -- but I tend to believe that Weaver crafted a campaign strategy that fit his candidate's personal tendencies.  The press coverage of Huntsmans has occasionally discussed his weird personal obsession with "being cool" (ancient Mandarin Chinese proverb: "Man obsessed with being cool, rarely is.") and being an 'outsider.'  That's a vibe that fits well with the "sane wing of moderate Republicanism" schtick he was selling.  I think it's him, not his advisers.

26 some of us have not yet given up hope on Perry.

Well, I was wrong again...

Perry is my preference; I just don't think he'll be in the race when I will have a chance to vote for him in my primary.

27 I try not to have litmus issues but global warming is one for me. If you're not smart enough to know it's a scam or are in on making money (power) from it I can't consider you a serious candidate. So Huntsman was never my candidate.

28

Hon Junstman has been assimilated into my collective. All other candidates should drop out now. This primary is taking too long. Resistance is futile.

29 There's a group of people who in 2008 (when the Republican Party looked f'ked for the foreseeable future) jumped at the chance to get in good with the other side and get some street cred where they thought there bread would be buttered.  Those people are dead to me.

Even before John Weaver, that's not somebody who I could support much less elect to a leadership position.

30 Huntsman lacks the mental, philosophic, political, and "gut" horsepower to represent those he appealed to. He should realign his affiliation, start anew, and run as a dem. in some Utah State house race. He would be a refreshing change for that party and perhaps could make some contributions.

31 A slate piece, I think, explained that he had the language skills of about a sophomore in college or something. Not fluent. I've heard it takes about ten years(!?) to get fluent. Huntsman is understandable- some people that study Chinese told me-that. But- the one time they heard him-he was using the possessive -when he didn't need to-fwiw.

32 How does 1% sabotage anything?

Posted by: nickless at January 16, 2012 12:24 PM (MMC8r)

Where do I start man......

33 How could Huntsman pitch himself as the true conservative in this race? Leaving aside for the moment that There Can Be Only One, and he hails from Ronulus Prime, Huntsman obviously both does not see himself that way and had no desire to appeal to conservative voters. I think this was a vanity run* that was only ever of interest to the politifag class who spend their every waking moment dissecting the moves of candidates that the average voter will never realize had even thrown his hat in the ring. *Huntsman can never have really considered himself to be a serious contender. Outside of vanity, I think the real reason is to make himself seem useful to who he thinks the eventual nominee is, and secure a cushy sinecure for the next few years, like he did with Obama. Fucking leech. Time to burn this bloodsucker off America's ass with a lit cigar.

34 Jeef B. Have you seen the Beff J. posts? LOL! -wow that is some funny stuff...

35 OK, this makes sense. Because if there's one thing I thought I knew about Mormons and Utah, it's that they're good conservatives.  I mean, usually...Hatch and Reid notwithstanding.

36 But- the one time they heard him-he was using the possessive -when he didn't need to-fwiw.

The horror!  I don't care if he was a good orange speaker or not. He belonged in the Democrat primaries not the Republican.

37 Is there any reason we are wasting good content on what should be readily forgotten? Huntsman made the decision he didn't like the base, the base followed suit and decided we didn't like him. Also he failed to obtain establishment backing => he didn't appeal to the populace or the money => was doomed to be an also ran from the start.

38 Calling John Weaver a "Moron" is a discredit to all morons.

John Weaver is a cretin (krtn).

39

A question. Assuming Romney is electable and is, in fact, elected, how do we KNOW that he would nominate conservative justices to the Supreme Court?

That is one of the principal reasons we want a Republican as president, right?

We know he has John Sunnunu as a big backer. We know that Sunnunu recommended David Souter to Bush I. 

Is there anything, anything at all, in RomneyÂ’s record that would suggest he would appoint justices that would be more conservative than Souter?

40 ...dropping Mandarin at random-is uncool.

What was that all about? Crazy. I think it's neat that someone can speak a foreign language, but I'm not so impressed by it that I want the idiot to keep talking up how he can do something that a billion and a half people can do much, much, much better.


Do you suppose Weaver thinks that, in middle America, showing you can speak Chinese is the equivalent of saying you have a PhD in physics from MIT?

41

The depressing thing about the primary coming up is that it could be won if Gingrich dropped out and supported Santorum, but he's too full of himself to do that. So we'll get mittens after all.

Posted by: Chris at January 16, 2012 12:17 PM (XGZYX)

Can someone explain to me how Santorum is anything other than Huckabee with a northeastern accent?  I'd vote for Santorum before I'd vote for Ron Paul, but that is about it.

42 ...and Mormons are reflixively conservative, social and econ. But it's basic and not an emotional thing, so their style doesn't fly well with evangs.

Trying to talk myself into Mitt again..

43
Is John Weaver to blame for Huntsman's flame-out.

Point of Order.

Dont you ahve to be, at some point, actually "on fire" to flame out.

44 The horror! I don't care if he was a good orange speaker or not. Well actually they were defending him-because the talk is that you can't understand his Chinese... in China-forget about peasants of the Republican electorate getting it...that's beside the point. gad.

45 Is there anything, anything at all, in RomneyÂ’s record that would suggest he would appoint justices that would be more conservative than Souter? Posted by: OCBill at January 16, 2012 12:30 PM (YJvVE) The hope is they will be better than obama's appointments. Yeah I know, but that's the best I can do

46 "At least he dropped out. Perry staying in is pure sabotage at this point, and I don't have the slightest doubt he's doing it at the behest of Romney."

Dude, I doubt that very, very much.

We are in the very, very early stages of this primary, and he's letting a damn red state have a say before he just drops out.  He's saying Iowa and New Hampshire do not get to rule out every conservative or sane candidate.  Why in the hell should we let them?

And he's good friends with Newt, and has been for decades, and probably can't stand Romney.  Nor does Romney have anything he can offer Rick Perry.  Perry is already has a much better job than any cabinet position, and he's already a good fund raiser.

Now, those for whom Romney CAN offer something often do wind up being strangely helpful to him.  That's basically a dictionary definition of how politics works, sadly.

But the main reason Romney is benefiting is that the others have failed.  Romney won't seem like the architect of the brilliant strategy if we're stupid enough to nominate him.

47

Right off the bat, I can think of one candidate who has been getting dumber advice than what Weaver was spooning up.

48

So what happens if Romney adds Weaver to his staff?

How does this guy keep getting work?

49 Go Romney!

50 38  Huntsman made the decision he didn't like the base,

Ace is saying it was just product positioning.   I totally get that and that is how they roll..

51 I don't know why you idiots didn't support me. Even though I hold you all in contempt, and told you so, still I got no support. Weird.

52 .and Mormons are reflixively conservative, social and econ ****Ya but what's the Mormon politicians's track record? How many of those our on the national stage -or have been? Harry Reid, Romney of Massach-odonia....

53

...independents like seeing someone who, like themselves, is "independent minded," which is a nice way of saying "indecisive" and "irresolute."

Pfft. Give me an independent, contrarian intelectual mind to battle ideology and dogma every time.

 

54 While I was initially supportive of Governor Romney's candidacy, it's become increasingly clear that the GOP has become a party that panders only to extremists and science deniers.

That is why today, I'm glad to announce that I will accept President Obama's invitation to join him as his Vice Presidential running mate, and together, we will restore sanity, respect for science, and bipartisan moderation to the USA, qualities which are so sorely lacking from today's GOP.

55 How many of those *are* on the national stage-

56 Trying to talk myself into Mitt again..

Posted by: jeanne! with two N's and an E at January 16, 2012 12:31 PM (GdalM)

My plan on Nov. 6 is to get really, really drunk, stumble into my voting precinct, try and stick the card in the slot without knocking the machine over, vote straight R (assuming I'm not seeing double) and then stumble right back out.

See? Painless!

57
I don't know why you idiots didn't support me. Even though I hold you all in contempt, and told you so

meh.....that only works for silver tongued SCOAMF's with a compliant press.

58

>>"At least he dropped out. Perry staying in is pure sabotage at this point, and I don't have the slightest doubt he's doing it at the behest of Romney."

No, he's doing it because only 2 primaries have passed and the South would be the only place he could make a last stand. That and he has a decent amount of campaign cash left.

My guess is that if he comes in the top three, he'll stick around to Florida.

If Perry doesn't come in the top three, then he'll drop out before florida.

He and Romney don't get along. He's not in it to help Romney, he's in it to see if he can pull off a come from behind victory.

We still have 48 states to vote, let Perry, Santorum and Ginrich duke it out of the next two before they decide between themselves who has the best chance to be the not-romney for the long haul

59 >>>Pfft. Give me an independent, contrarian intelectual mind to battle ideology and dogma every time. I kind of agree, however, most self-identifying independents are not really like that. Mostly they just don't make decisions, and they vote for candidates who promise to fuzz up problems so that no big decisions seem necessary. They tend to not be very concerned about politics.

60

Is there anything, anything at all, in RomneyÂ’s record that would suggest he would appoint justices that would be more conservative than Souter?

Posted by: OCBill at January 16, 2012 12:30 PM (YJvVE)

We already KNOW what type of justice JEF will put forth so I am cool with Willard.  The repukes in congress don't have the balls to stand in JEF's way.

61 At least I can spell my candidate's name correctly : Jon.

62 It's Not Huntsman: Via Hot Air, a BuzzFeed article makes it pretty clear that Huntsman was betting big on an ObamaFuture.

That was obvious the day Mike Huntsman took the job as Barky's lap-dog in China ... so that he could speak Chinese, as he was born to do.

63 Dont you ahve to be, at some point, actually "on fire" to flame out.

You can flameout from too much fuel, too little fuel, too little air, water, ice....it's basically any non-mechanical failure in a turbine engine.

64

Pfft. Give me an independent, contrarian intelectual mind to battle ideology and dogma every time. Posted by: dblwmy

May need to work on that polishing one's own apple in private.

65

I'm going OT.

My takeway from the MLK day parade: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream...

to own a motorcycle.

and a Corvette.

66

less hostile to the role of an activist government that had been vindicated in Obama's election

Ah yes, Democrats get mandates and Republicans steal elections.

Oh, and here I thought Obama was a "moderate liberal" not some big government ninny.

I guess they can't keep the story lies straight

67 It's pretty much par for the course that very average politicians and their political consultant pilot fish fall by the wayside by trying to find their sweet spot with faulty polling and fingers in the air dripping saliva.

Real leaders don't.
Huntsman clearly isn't a leader and unfortunately he wasn't beaten by one.

68 I'm having such a difficult time understanding this election. Mitt looks to be winning , but i still have no idea why He is presumed to be ready to lead the charge against progressive ideas.

69

the role of an activist government that had been vindicated in Obama's election

I guess that is why the Republicans had a historic year in 2010.

And Scott Brown won and so did Christie and Bob McDonnell.

70 48 - Oh, I know... Sarah Palin, right? Cuz she was too stupid to get in the race at all!! What do I win?

71
Hey Ace.....   How a post examining MLK's conservative orientation.  The KOS Kids traffic alone should bust the traffic meter.  Head's asploding would be a side benefit.

72 less hostile to the role of an activist government that had been vindicated in Obama's election

Actually, for anyone who was paying attention, the election of Barky was a victory for the idea of American national suicide.  Mike Huntsman, of course, jumped on this bandwagon ... because he's just so damn smart and conservativish.

73 I believe that deviations like that can help a candidate in a general election, because independents like seeing someone who, like themselves, is "independent minded," which is a nice way of saying "indecisive" and "irresolute." Oh, bullshit Ace. I consider myself independent. I don't toe any party line, especially either of the major stupid parties running this country into ruin. I have very firm values, though. I am a fiscal hawk; I believe strongly in individual rights and freedoms, and a very limited government; I am (mostly) socially liberal, as I believe it is absolutely none of the government's (or anyone else's, for that matter) business what is going on in my bedroom; I support the right to bear arms; I am anti-abortion, but reluctantly (as my brother-in-law puts it) pro-choice, as I think the answer to reducing abortion is education, not coercion; I believe in a strong national defense, but am very wary of inserting our noses into every foreign conflict going on; and yes, we need to be taking the fight to the Islamists big time. That makes me squishy or "indecisive"? What a load of crap, Ace. Really. I can think for myself, thankyouverymuch. And a lot of us independents are just like that. We don't go into the voting booth, having already had our minds made up for us to vote straight R or D. And no, I didn't vote for Obama. Far from it. But I sure as hell wasn't thrilled with the choices I had in '08. Too many people like you, apparently, decided that the Stupid Party had to nominate a cranky old fool who should've retired years ago. So enough of the "irresolute" bullshit. Just because we don't like the piss-poor choices you idiots in the major parties foist on us doesn't make us irresolute. It makes us mad. And shitting on us and calling us squishes isn't the way to bring us into the fold. It's damn sure a good way to get us to break off from the Republican party and form a real Tea Party. Which, of course, would just about guarantee a hammer lock on national politics by the illiberal Left for at least a generation. And you could kiss the country goodbye on that note. But, you'd have purged the Republican party of all of the squishes and RINOs, so you'd have that going for you! Asshole.

74 to battle ideology and dogma every time.

I agree with teh dogma part. Dogma is used to create drones, of pure intolerant supporters.

Not having an ideology though. That is a sure sign, not of an intellectual, but of the intellectually incurious; To never have considered mankind's existence on this earth long enough to form an opinion about it. Such a level of shallow thinking should be an immediate disqualifier for leadership.

75 40 - Allegedly, Romney has Bork on his team, and I guess that's supposed to be proof he'll only nominate good judges and not bad ones. I heard that here though, so it may or may not be true.

76

To save all the Romneybots the trouble, yes, some of us have not yet given up hope on Perry.

If they replay the Huckabee forum, catch it. Perry looked and sounded great. Actually, Santorum was quite surprising as well.

BTW, one of the "undecided" voters who asked a question of the candidates last night was a cofirmed Paul supporter. Based upon the crowd reaction to that revelation, so was half the audience.

77 They wake up a little only when the sky is about to fall.

And more often than not they believe the Dems/MFM opinion of weather or not the sky is falling.

78 I'm having such a difficult time understanding this election. Mitt looks to be winning , but i still have no idea why He is presumed to be ready to lead the charge against progressive ideas. ****** Mitt Romney-Making the Impossible- Possible: ObamaCare, Obama II!

79

73 48 -

Oh, I know... Sarah Palin, right? Cuz she was too stupid to get in the race at all!!

What do I win?

Posted by: BurtTC at January 16, 2012 12:43 PM (Gc/Qi)

 

No.  Actually the answer is Rick Perry, but thank you for playing.

80 The testimonial to Mittens from the fella who founded Staples was quite impressive.

81 I really don't understand why Perry is not picking up a little support.  His comment on the Marines is enough to put him in the Oval Office as far as I'm concerned.  He showed more stones in making that comment then all the rest of the candidates and GOP leadership have between them.

82

 

I believe in the free market. Except for healthcare. Healthcare is just too important. The government should come in a control that, for the good of the people, of course.

83 makes it pretty clear that Huntsman was betting big on an ObamaFuture.

I'd have a hard time voting for a complete retard as prez.  I'm just saying...

84 >>Allegedly, Romney has Bork on his team, and I guess that's supposed to be proof he'll only nominate good judges and not bad ones. I heard that here though, so it may or may not be true. It's true. Bork, Mary Ann Glendon and Richard Wiley lead his legal advisory team.

85 76- Dude, do you have a shorter version of this rant? I'll read Ace's long posts, but comments from people I don't know... nah. You seem to be mad though, so who knows, maybe you have something useful to say, but I'll never know unless you can be more...concise.

86 BTW, one of the "undecided" voters who asked a question of the candidates last night was a cofirmed Paul supporter. Based upon the crowd reaction to that revelation, so was half the audience. ***** Just wait till Ron Paul passes the torch to Rand Paul-if you think it's "problematic" now...

87 >>>Hey Ace.....   How a post examining MLK's conservative orientation.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a very strong case.  MLK was a civil rights hero and that can't be taken away from him, but let's not kid ourselves: in terms of economic issues he was extremely liberal, and in fact quasi-Marxist.  I don't mean that as a slander of the old "ZOMG HE'S A COMMUNIST" variety, just an accurate reflection of where he was in terms of his policies and political sympathies at the end of his life.

Doesn't make him any less admirable, though.

88 How many days to pitchers and catchers?

89 Unless we want to be consigned to minority-party status for a long time, we need to recognize these tectonic shifts happening under our feet.”

This is my problem with Romney too. If the Republicans are merely going to be Dem Lite, there is no point in voting for them.

Yes Romney or Huntsman will more slowly push us to the left but in the end their ascension guarantees that we will continue the progress.

We need conservatives that will actually try and role back the state.

90 I kind of agree, however, most self-identifying independents are not really like that. Mostly they just don't make decisions, and they vote for candidates who promise to fuzz up problems so that no big decisions seem necessary.

They tend to not be very concerned about politics.

Posted by: ace at January 16, 2012 12:37 PM (nj1bB)

Nah, a good portion of independents either vote democrat or republican consistantly. They just don't want to be labled as one or the other. I find it hard if not impossible to say I am a republican after all the money they spent in the Bush admin but I always vote that way.

91 Bork, Mary Ann Glendon and Richard Wiley lead his legal advisory team. ***** That's not performance-it's promise... And, what's Mitt Romney's track record on that?

92 82 - I know, genius. You're a one-trick pony. However, given your love for the Sarah, I would think you'd be madder at her than you are at Perry. Perry at least ran. Your girl chickened out.

93

Then Huntsman contemplated an alternate future for Republican Party. They would be modernizers and reformers, less hostile to the role of an activist government that had been vindicated in Obama's election, and finally untethered from the fantasy of a pure Constitutionalist past worshipped by fringe figures like Rep. Ron Paul.

But racism.

Do you read the news?

Do you like the constitution?

Did you read that Ron Paul supports the constitution faithfully in ways other candidates from both parties actually laugh and scoff about?

Well you're a racist and racism and you need to shut your racist piehole.

94

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 16, 2012 12:41 PM (kllqc)

heh - damn, i hat wen teh werds get two long

95 Why would a big goverment, uber liberal, DIABLO squish endorse the Grand Free Market Capitalist Romney? But enough about Jeff B - let's talk about Huntsman.

96 U.K. says 'time is running out' for Middle East peace Earlier, deputy U.K. PM condemned Israeli settlements as 'act of deliberate vandalism' that damages peace process; remarks made during Abbas' visit to Europe. But for the palestinians to put up their final positions as the starting point and making it a "Take it or go Home" issue is just fine and dandy with the British?

97
Just wait till Ron Paul passes the torch to Rand Paul-if you think it's "problematic" now...

Posted by: tasker at January 16, 2012 12:48 PM (r2PLg)

I think there is a lot of reason to believe that Rand will do for Paulism what Buckley did for conservativism.

Rand Paul is one of the conservatives willing to fight. Let's just hope Ron's personal ambitions don't doom him.

98
I don't think you need to run down someone's reputation in order to run for the office of president.
-Jon Huntsman, Jr.

99 We need conservatives that will actually try and role back the state.

Posted by: 18-1 at January 16, 2012 12:49 PM (7BU4a)

Would you let me know when F&F, Solyndra fraud, and Obama's campaign funding is exposed and people go to jail for a very long time. Thanks.

100 Rand Paul is one of the conservatives willing to fight. Let's just hope Ron's personal ambitions don't doom him. Posted by: 18-1 at January 16, 2012 12:51 PM (7BU4a) I'm afraid that when pus comes to shove Rand does not fall far from the paul tree and is also an isolationist and he had NEVER distance himself from many of his father's views

101 Huntsman is blaming someone else for his flame out??? He was unknown outside of Utah and when examined his actual record as governor it was more liberal than conservative. He isn't as liberal as Romney but he was far from being a conservative.

As for MLK and his tendencies to socialism and communism yes. What you don't often hear from the press is that in his later years he did not march or campaign for civil rights. His last marches were in support of the anti-war radicals and socialist unions.

102 U.K. says 'time is running out' for Middle East peace

Meh, same shit's been going on for at least 50 two thousand years.  Sometimes it comes to shooting, sometimes it don't.

103

Nah, a good portion of independents either vote democrat or republican consistantly. They just don't want to be labled as one or the other. I find it hard if not impossible to say I am a republican after all the money they spent in the Bush admin but I always vote that way.

Exactly. I think a large faction of independants hold that both parties are horrible and corrupt.

Republicans want to ban certain things, throw a certain type of person in jail for having the wrong hobbies, and spend all our money on a certain group of cronies and certain well-lobbied business interests.

The democrats want to do the same thing, just change the names.

104

I'm afraid that when pus comes to shove Rand does not fall far from the paul tree and is also an isolationist and he had NEVER distance himself from many of his father's views

He is an interventionist. He does not share all his father's views. Whereas Ron says to mind our own business and leave Israel to fend for herself. Rand says stop telling them how and when they can defend themselves.

There's a distinction...and a difference.

And, I've commented about it a couple of times over the past couple of weeks but, again, Rand was the one who stopped Rubio in his tracks when his actions would have pitted us in a pissing contest with Putin and Co. over the admission of Georgia to NATO.

105 I think a large faction of independants hold that both parties are horrible and corrupt.

That would be true of a lot of party members too...at least the honest ones.

106

As for MLK and his tendencies to socialism and communism yes. What you don't often hear from the press is that in his later years he did not march or campaign for civil rights. His last marches were in support of the anti-war radicals and socialist unions.

He was also a theocrat who wanted an expressly religious and 'moral' government and talked about Jesus more than Rick Santorum.  

107 But for the palestinians to put up their final positions as the starting point and making it a "Take it or go Home" issue is just fine and dandy with the British?

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 12:51 PM (i6RpT)

The British are just replaying what they did in '48.  They have never really gotten over the fact that Israel survived in '48.  They were rooting for the arabs.  They armed the arabs (and let them have all the important strategic positions) and did their best to make sure the Jews were unarmed and on poor fighting ground.  The brits were devastated by the Israeli win.  The same goes for pretty much the rest of Europe.

108 And yes, basically a commie. And a pacifist.

109 >>And, what's Mitt Romney's track record on that? Somewhat irrelevant. MA has a group called the Governors Council. Its a pretty unique group that dates back to pre-Revolutionary days. There are 8 members which are elected by the constituents in 8 regions of the state. They therefore reflect the citizens of MA which are overwhelmingly Democrat. One of the most important tasks of this group is to approve any judicial appointment in the state. They are like the US Senate in that regard accept that they are all Democrats and will only appoint judges of the same mindset.

110 This hasn't been so much a primary as a prisoner's dilemma for the Not-Mitt candidates.

111 Nah, a good portion of independents either vote democrat or republican consistantly.

There are two distinct groups of independents, one as you note aren't happy with their parties for various reasons but will almost usually vote for them. I am more or less in this boat now. Of course presuming Romney is the nominee I'll be voting against the top two Republicans on my 2012 ballot.

But the other group is a collection of low information voters who don't bother to do the research to actually see what belief system really fits them though they'd generally be classified as moderately economically liberal and moderately socially conservative.

And this second group is often the deciding factor in presidential elections.

Overall this presents the fallacy of the notion of running to the middle in the general election. The votes mostly up for grabs don't care about politics. The way you reach them is charisma and simple memes.

This is why the electorate that gave us Reagan could give us Clinton, or Bush 43 and Obama.

112 87 - I don't know who those other two people are, but I'm not a legal scholar, nor do I play one on tv. I don't know what Mitt says if asked about judicial appointments though, does he actually espouse a philosophy? I mean, we know the list of Mitt supporters is long, and just having the "right" judicial people in your corner at this point doesn't guarantee what you will DO with those folks in your corner.

113 *Huntsman can never have really considered himself to be a serious contender. Outside of vanity, I think the real reason is to make himself seem useful to who he thinks the eventual nominee is, and secure a cushy sinecure for the next few years, like he did with Obama.

Fucking leech. Time to burn this bloodsucker off America's ass with a lit cigar. Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 16, 2012 12:27 PM (PLHIl)

I don't think so- I'm pretty sure he really was in it to win.  He had a decent record, a bit of foreign policy cred, and money.  Just a lousy campaign.

I imagine that he looked back at McCain's 2008 primary win and that of Obama. He probably thought he could fill the place of McCain in soaking up the moderate vote while the other candidates tried to out-conservative each other.

114 Rand Paul is one of the conservatives willing to fight. Let's just hope Ron's personal ambitions don't doom him. Rand Paul might well be Ron Paul's beard... Still a lot of Ron Paul up in there... Ron Paul with a *blush* more of acceptability.

115 Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a very strong case.  MLK was a civil rights hero and that can't be taken away from him, but let's not kid ourselves: in terms of economic issues he was extremely liberal, and in fact quasi-Marxist.  I don't mean that as a slander of the old "ZOMG HE'S A COMMUNIST" variety, just an accurate reflection of where he was in terms of his policies and political sympathies at the end of his life.

Thats the perception.

Reality is he was a registered republican, pro-life, pro faith and more than once spoke out about the oppression of communism.  Alveda King this morning on FOX  said her uncle would be considered a social conservative today.

Food for thought.....

116

I know, genius. You're a one-trick pony. However, given your love for the Sarah, I would think you'd be madder at her than you are at Perry. Perry at least ran. Your girl chickened out.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 16, 2012 12:49 PM (Gc/Qi)

 

ItÂ’s just seems cruel having to keep reminding you what a fucking idiot Perry is, but you do have a point.  Rick did run while Palin didnÂ’t. 

You missed the bone I was throwing to you and other Perry supporters.  I was allowing for the possibility that his incredibly poor performance might be the fault of handlers who (as farfetched as this may sound) are dumber than he is. 

So much for trying to be nice.

117 Whereas Ron says to mind our own business and leave Israel to fend for herself. Rand says stop telling them how and when they can defend themselves. There's a distinction...and a difference. Actually that is NOT true. Ron Paul couches his views of Israel the same way: That we should stop telling Israel how and when to defend themselves.

118 And, what's Mitt Romney's track record on that? ******* Jack by "that" -I meant-what is Mitt Romney's track record on keeping *promises*-his word? I can see why you would want to misconstrue that. (Don't make me go to the-videotape!!)

119

This is ridiculus. I will be the nominee. It has already been decided.

These early primary states are the only ones that matter. Let's get this over with, before the big Red States get to vote. Paying off primary officials to keep the not-Romney candidates off the balot is expensive. Virginia cost me a small fortune!

120 How do you say "Ruhtard" in Mandarin? You know in case I ever visit Bejing and Meggie Mac has joined the local whorehouse.

121

You missed the bone I was throwing to you and other Perry supporters.  I was allowing for the possibility that his incredibly poor performance might be the fault of handlers who (as farfetched as this may sound) are dumber than he is. 

First, Perry is not a fucking idiot.

Second, Ialso think he has been over-handled. They've done to him what Palin's handlers did to her.

122
  It would be great if one of the candidates had Sarah's ability to screw with the media. To date, only Perry has shown any capability, with his slap-down of Mike Allen from Politico.

  Perhaps that isn't germane to the election, but the entertainment value would be huge.

123 It would be great if one of the candidates had Sarah's ability to screw with the media. To date, only Perry has shown any capability, with his slap-down of Mike Allen from Politico. Perhaps that isn't germane to the election, but the entertainment value would be huge. Posted by: irongrampa at January 16, 2012 01:01 PM (SAMxH) Actually Newt was screwing with the media before he went off half cocked after Romney

124 >>U.K. says 'time is running out' for Middle East peace

They've gone from "the sun never sets on the British Empire" to world class advisers on time running out.
No irony there.

125 tasker: You've obviously missed it but he has cancer and asked people tol ay off him at the moment.

126 Posted by: jwest at January 16, 2012 12:58 PM (FdndL)

You need a new schtick.  Your current one is played.

127 and he had NEVER distance himself from many of his father's views

Yeah not wanting to drive a wedge between him and his dad. Let's not actually look at what he does, let's just assume he just like his dad.

I'll give you a hint. My dad is very much in the Ron Paul camp, I disagree with him on his views on the rest of the world and our guilt all the time. No I ain't going to outright publicly rebuke him. There are hundreds of thousands of folks around to publicly run down his opinion, it doesn't have to be me.

I get the sense Rand is much the same way. And rigidly insisting on holding him accountable for his fathers opinions really isn't something I would think conservatives would do.

128 With Huntsman out Obama is still vulnerable from his Left. It also means all the "Reagan Democrats" have no where to go but the GOP and Mittens. ......oops,....I just realized Huntsman had been running as a Republican all along. No problem: All he has to do now is go on MSNBC and say he lost because the rednecks are racist---proved because he speaks Mandarin--and he's back in the Obama administration.

129 Let the flame out wars begin!

130 Huntsman pissed me off when he talked down to me saying I didn't believe in science just because I don't buy the climate farce. F-U Huntsman, go read that 'science' of faked data, deleted data, and peer dissmissals for not agreeing that is all found in the Climategate 1.0 and 2.0 emails you putz.

131 Also, it wasn't that you served Obama, which is fine, it was your knob-slobbing love letter you wrote to the bastard that is the problem, Putz

132 basically a commie. And a pacifist.

There is no such thing in the real world.  When the rubber meets the road and forced to choose, anyone claiming to be such will fill mass graves to get what they want just like all the other commies.  If unwilling to fill the graves, then they'll become a resident of one along with all the other anti-revolutionary malcontents.

133 tasker: You've obviously missed it but he has cancer and asked people tol ay off him at the moment. **** Mittens?

134 I get the sense Rand is much the same way. And rigidly insisting on holding him accountable for his fathers opinions really isn't something I would think conservatives would do.

Except that Rand publicly and enthusiastically endorsed Ron.

It's one thing to say "I support my father", but a different matter entirely to go on TV and extol the virtues of Ron Paul for president.

135 And rigidly insisting on holding him accountable for his fathers opinions really isn't something I would think conservatives would do. Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at January 16, 2012 01:03 PM (0q2P7) I hear where yu coming from but it is a dangerous game for Rand to play when his some of his fathers views, and published writings ( in his own papers whether he authored them or not ) border on antisemitism.

136 ...dropping Mandarin at random-is uncool.
What was that all about? Crazy

Maybe he thought he was on Firefly.

137 105 - At some point, it's always possible Europe will decide to solve the middle east mess Euro-style. By Euro-style I mean Hitler, Napoleon, Bismarck, Pete the Great, King (later Saint) Louis... you know, those guys who don't screw around when it comes to pacifying those who bug them. I know lots of folks don't care for the U.S. being the policemen of the world, but when we do it, you measure the dead in the thousands, and generally the conquered are better off than when we started. With our Euro buddies though, millions die, and then the conquered get their resources taken. We'll see if it comes to that.

138 19 >>>. Perry staying in is pure sabotage at this point,

Yes I have felt the same way about Santorum and Bachmann staying in when they were at 1%. I guess though that they're allowed to stay in at 1%, but my guy isn't.

Posted by: ace at January 16, 2012 12:21 PM (nj1bB)

How about the thinking that if he stays in it'll force Romney to pick him as VP? Holy shit, anyone who thinks that is deep down in the depths of stupidity. (AKA evangelical "leaders.")

2008 GOP VP Nominee Mike Huckabee says, "Hi."

139
I'm afraid that when pus comes to shove Rand does not fall far from the paul tree and is also an isolationist and he had NEVER distance himself from many of his father's views

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 12:53 PM (i6RpT)

We have a fundamental problem in that we are somewhat over extended on internal relations, for example why are we paying 25% of the UN's budget, and what do we get out of NATO?, but our foreign policy isn't that effective now and would be less so with a dramatic isolationist shift not matched with a sea change in how we handle foreign policy. 

Steyn has an interesting article on this in NRO recently.

Basically, I think conservatives need to go back to the drawing board and put forward a foreign policy that leave us less tied, but with a very consistent message that we will destroy you if you attack us. 

I honestly don't know if Rand would be willing to embrace this sort of change, but it is one we need to make.

140 >>Perhaps that isn't germane to the election, but the entertainment value would be huge.
Posted by: irongrampa at January 16, 2012 01:01 PM (SAMxH)

That's how Newt got his momentum (something he seems to have forgotten with his Mitt snit) and that media smack is really his only redeeming quality.

141 139 I get the sense Rand is much the same way. And rigidly insisting on holding him accountable for his fathers opinions really isn't something I would think conservatives would do. Except that Rand publicly and enthusiastically endorsed Ron. It's one thing to say "I support my father", but a different matter entirely to go on TV and extol the virtues of Ron Paul for president. Kinda like Mel Gibson does when he gets drunk.

142 Ron Paul with a *blush* more of acceptability.

Posted by: tasker at January 16, 2012 12:58 PM (r2PLg)

I've heard Rand talk about seriously downsizing government, and generally in a more serious fashion then his father.

Other then that, how do they overlap?

143 >>I don't know who those other two people are, but I'm not a legal scholar, nor do I play one on tv. Mary Ann Glendon is a strict constitutionalist and one of the most notable pro-life activists in the country. She is a professor at Harvard and was the Ambassador to the Holy See under Bush. Notably, she turned down an honorary degree from Notre Dame a couple years ago when Notre Dame announced that Barack Obama would be their commencement speaker. She's that pro-life. Richard Wiley is a communications lawyer who is extremely well regarded by the industry but I don't know too much about him. tasker- I've seen just about all the anti-Romney videos. Here's one I bet you haven't seen by Mary Ann Glendon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YpTwfBHbEb4

144

Only the smallish cohort of socially liberal pro-life (???) Republicans who read Vogue are permitted to buy this product.

Thats actually a friend of mine, but even she couldnt stand Huntsman.

145 I don't think it's a question of smart or dumb.  And, frankly, I'm kind of irritated that we've adopted the same insulting schtick Obama's camp has been using for four years. 

It's a question of being out of touch.  Huntsman doesn't really know America or Americans very well.  He's had a pretty cocooned existence, even by politicians' standards.  He's from an outlier, homogeneous state; worked jobs that he got via family connections; and he's spent a fair amount of time out of the country. 

146 Also, it wasn't that you served Obama, which is fine, it was your knob-slobbing love letter you wrote to the bastard that is the problem, Putz

Posted by: Schwalbe: The Me-262© at January 16, 2012 01:05 PM (UU0OF)

It was that he served as Barky's Shar-Pei.  That was a clear signal as to what he thought and how little he understood about what was going on in America.  He has finally said all this, out loud, which was before only expressed in his enthusiastic acceptance of the role as Barky's Beijing Butt-Boy. 

That love letter was particularly pathetic, though.  Originally, he was going to write it in Chinese and seal it with a lipstick kiss.  The Chinese got tossed, but the lipstick made it.

147 You cannot attack me, without attacking Capitalism. My opperatives are standing by to play the victim card on my behalf.

148 Except that Rand publicly and enthusiastically endorsed Ron.

Oh come on. How can you not publicly endorse your own father in that situation, even if he is a crank?

149 At some point, it's always possible Europe will decide to solve the middle east mess Euro-style.

If their oil/gas supply is seriously threatened, all bets are off. 

150 Bollocks! You would think running as a Democrat in Republican primaries would be a lock. Maybe my brilliance was too nuanced...

151

There have been some really sucky campaigns this cycle.

 

Huntsman -- nuff said.

Perry -- lack of preparation for the debates and clumsy, bizarre 'I put the crazy into socon' desperation moves in Iowa, plus saying me-too to Occupy Newt.

Pawlenty -- dropping out for practically no reason

Bachmann -- shrill, easily disprovable attacks on Perry made in a moment of panic; apparent belief that acting as a Romney surrogate would benefit her in some way

Gingrich -- bad, self-preoccupied whining about the vicious Romney and Paul attacks; Occupy Bain stuff, when he could have made a much more calibrated and effective attack on some of this stuff (hitting up the government tax credits and subsidies, e.g.); decision to go negative at all instead of just defending himself and maintaining the above the fray attitude that boomed him in the first place

Santorum -- going to NH instead of straight to SC; doubling down on the hard socon stuff instead of downplaying it and reaching out to the broader conservative electorate.

Romney -- his decision to not moderate his support for Romneycare was a major mistake--he could have easily backed off full-throated support for it without going all the way and renouncing the thing; his decision to not really outreach to conservatives is also a big mistake

Not the A-team folks.  The GOP doesn't have one.

152 Obama 2012 - I Promise Mitt Won't Fire You

153 How can you not publicly endorse your own father in that situation, even if he is a crank?

I'd develop a sudden brain lesion that prevented me from speaking or writing.  It would get better after the election.

154 With our Euro buddies though, millions die, and then the conquered get their resources taken.

Whoa whoa whoa there it is America that is the Imperialists Not the Europeans.

155 With our Euro buddies though, millions die, and then the conquered get their resources taken.

We'll see if it comes to that.

Posted by: BurtTC at January 16, 2012 01:07 PM (Gc/Qi)

That was in the good old pre-muz Europe, when the spoils went to the victors. 

This time it will be the caliphate that takes all the resources, but doesn't have a clue how to use them in a post 6th century world.

156 I can't believe Ace thinks Huntsman has a good conservative record. The reason he got less than 1% vote (except in open primary race where leftist democrats can stuff the box) is because of his absolutely shocking stance on global warming issues like cap and trade. That's a kind of blasphemy that would detonate the US economy. Who cares about his ambassadorship to china against that?

157 Maybe he thought he was on Firefly.


I always think that nowadays. . .

Juhguh JEE HUA jun kuhPAH

158

Not the A-team folks.  The GOP doesn't have one.

If you had asked me in 2010 who the Republicans would not nominate it would be the guy who gave us the first iteration of Obromneycare, and yet, as usual the Republican party insists on snatching defeat, whether they nominally win the election or not, from the jaws of victory.

159 Jack- OK-I'll take a look at it but I'm more worried about Romney's business sense leading him to champion Romney Care to this day...

160 Basically, I think conservatives need to go back to the drawing board and put forward a foreign policy that leave us less tied, but with a very consistent message that we will destroy you if you attack us. I honestly don't know if Rand would be willing to embrace this sort of change, but it is one we need to make. Posted by: 18-1 at January 16, 2012 01:08 PM (7BU4a) We always need to be reaccessing our foreign policy and the strategy and tactics we use to accomplish that. But weakening our Military only limits our options and strengthens our enemies. In the 21st Century we can not be Isolationists. And why do we have to be the World's Policemen? Well if you believe in American Exceptionalism, then that is one of the responsibilities also.

161 162 Maybe he thought he was on Firefly. I always think that nowadays. . . Juhguh JEE HUA jun kuhPAH Posted by: MikeTheMoose Camellia Sinensis Operative at January 16, I thought we were all on Firefly.

162 Also on Rand vs Ron - if you endorse your father doesn't it give you more leverage to pressure him to not run third party?

I'd endorsed you dad and did what I could, now the primaries are over and I need you to help me - don't go third party.

Of course if Romney is the nominee who cares.

163 Not the A-team folks.

Even Dick Cheney with his flaky ticker would be a big upgrade...I hear Dan Quayle is tanned rested and ready.

164 Ahhh, you no like #6, "Mandarin Chicken"?  Very bland, not sure of true colors.

Call me crazy, but he sit in warmer which was never on. 


Soon you can eliminate #5....very Dim sum.  Have three ingredients, innards (but no heart), vulture...and forget last ingredient. 

Then on to #4.  Buddha's Imperial Feast.  Consist of 1000 ideas for recipe, none ever completely finished.   Always plenty of beef...about something.

#3 cook long time in crockpot.  That how you pronounce it?  Stews by itself for whole time,.... wants to get rid of all the juice in the world.  Is that how you pronounce that?  Kung paol shrimp, plenty of nuts. 

#2 Start off with hot and sour.  Plenty of pork.  Some say too much pork.  Often thought of as junior dish to #4.  At least that's what #4 says.

#1  Made with limp noodles and weak tea.  Very rich dish, served in very plastic shell.  Half hour after digesting, hungry for different candidate.  Look good, smell funny.  May be last dish standing.  Tok's the tok, but doesn't seem to wok the wok.

165 Jack Watched the video-two questions; 1) What about Newt's charge that RomneyCare used taxpayer money to subsidize abortion? 2) Sure Romney's doors -as governor would be open to them-Massachusetts had a track record of voting for Republican governors-why should that be their biggest selling point?

166 If their oil/gas supply is seriously threatened, all bets are off. 
Posted by: Purple Avenger

I think we underestimate just how zealously pacifistic the Northern EU countries really are. Pacifism has replaced religion in much of the EU. I wouldn't be surprised to read that a significant percent of its residence would be willing to accept a lower standard of living in exchange for 'peace.'

Further, one of the biggest threat to Germany's energy supply is Germany itself in declaring nuke plants obsolete.

Countries have chosen decline before, and we'll seen a few more before this century is out.

167

If you had asked me in 2010 who the Republicans would not nominate it would be the guy who gave us the first iteration of Obromneycare, and yet, as usual the Republican party insists on snatching defeat, whether they nominally win the election or not, from the jaws of victory.

Posted by: 18-1

 

Look at the alternatives.  You can't beat somebody with nobody.

At some point you have to stop your breathless Romney hate and actually  make the case for somebody else.  And those somebody else's all suck too.

168 Oh come on. How can you not publicly endorse your own father in that situation, even if he is a crank?

Easy:  I support my father, however I will not be formally endorsing any candidate.

Alternatively:  I'll quietly endorse my father if you ask, but I'm not going to do so publicly.

Instead, he volunteered to do TV interviews talking about how awesome a Ron Paul presidency would be.

So with that, fuck Rand Paul and his nutcase dad.  I've no use for either of them and hope Rand gets his ass primaried.

169 Can we just nominate Christina Hendricks to be prez. Don't care what her politics are and since we're DOOMED already at least I could look forward to when the prez is on TV.

170 @ Hollowpoint You give an equally likely motivation for Huntsman's candidacy, and it does not change my mind about what should be done with him.

171 148 - Sounds great... so why don't we cut out the middleman and nominate Mary Ann Glendon instead of Mittens? I'm kidding... I think.

172

Posted by: Pf cha-ching's at January 16, 2012 01:18 PM (tpCAr)

 

Thread winner.

173 #169 LMAO!!!

174 And why do we have to be the World's Policemen? Well if you believe in American Exceptionalism, then that is one of the responsibilities also.

I think that's the problem though. American exceptionalism or not our role should not be "policeman" which ties us to Euro style incompetence - and note we've seen this played out again and again over the last few decades. Ironically the most effective we've been in recent years is when Clinton attacked the Serbs and waged "an illegal war" that brought them to their knees (not that I thought there was much point in what we did).

So, for example, what should our response have been when Syria and Iran openly started funding and supporting terrorists in Iraq? The world policeman role says you try and apprehend those responsible and punish them in a court of law while protesting through various international organizations. My argument was to respond with bombers over a border target and back channels of more to come unless they knock it off.

175 Well if you believe in American Exceptionalism, then that is one of the responsibilities also.

Meaning we have to spend 10 years bringing democracy (or trying to) to Iraq and Afghanistan in order to be exceptional? That seems to have gotten us a lot of expense, a not insignificant casualty list, and two regimes that don't seem to care for us much. Exceptional Success. Can we afford more exceptional successes like these?

We intervened in Somalia for awhile. Exceptional results there, too. Libya is looking A-Ok now. An independent Kosovo - more success (KLA all the way)!

176 tasker- You really need to understand the environment in MA. It's impossible to make an honest judgement on what Romney did without that. In 2000, MA became one of the first states to put Single Payer to the voters as a ballot issue. MA is inundated with doctors and hospitals and pretty much ground zero to the AMA who has been pushing for a single payer plan as loud as anyone. This was their initiative. Despite being outspent by business by about $5 million to $100K the initiative lost 52 -48. Rather than take this as a defeat the liberals were overjoyed and polls showed that there was still a majority support for this this plan. Again, remember this is MA. Romney was elected in 2002 and this was one of the huge issues on the table. The libs wanted single payer and were putting a huge effort into getting one. Saying he would do nothing was not an option, 85% of our legislature was Democrat. They had the votes and the people behind them. Believe it or not, the health care plan Romney got the libs to go for instead was a huge compromise on their part and business leaders in the state were thrilled. They knew that doing nothing meant single payer was a done deal. This was a victory for Romney and even though conservative principles have changed in the last few years when this was implemented it was hailed by conservatives including people like Jim DeMint and Newt Gingrich as a solid conservative solution to a STATE problem. If you really want to know what started this nightmare go read up on the Emergency Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) which was signed by non-other than Ronald Reagan.

177
dropping Mandarin at random-is uncool.

No lie.  And it's about as effective a marketing ploy as Jimmy Carter's pitching himself as a nuclear engineer who said nook-you-ler.

178 Huntsman was/is what we thought he was.

179

Posted by: Pf cha-ching's at January 16, 2012 01:18 PM (tpCAr)

 

I LOL'ed. 

It's good to have one less distraction in this contest.  I assume Romney will prevail, but I sure hope the others who hang on will have some impact in terms of driving him rightward. 

 

180 At some point you have to stop your breathless Romney hate and actually  make the case for somebody else.  And those somebody else's all suck too.

Outside of Huntsman, the "suck" of the other candidates is nothing compared to Romney.

Perry and Santorum have a pretty solid record to run on that they would reverse the current course of DC. Newt is much more checkered, but he was the leader of the group of House Republicans that reformed welfare (with Santorum) and shut down the government over budget fights with Clinton.

Romney? The best we can hope for is the status quo and a consolidate of Obama's changes.

ABR gives us a chance. With Romney, a win is a loss.

181

... "which is a nice way of saying "indecisive" and "irresolute." ... HOG WASH! Let's relate that to food, just for the drill. You are saying, in a not nice way, that a menu is NOT better than a buffet. We should all just shut up and eat what is offered or go home hungry. Go ahead, eat the damn buffet, if you wish! I'll take the menu every time. If there isn't something on the menu that I want, I won't buy. Not because of "indecisive" or "irresolute" tendencies, but just the opposite. Go ahead and have the buffet, take only what is offered by your "betters", and be led around by your "betters" if you wish. Or, start thinking for yourself and learn to select from the menu, or NOT select, because you have that power to choose for yourself without the noise of your "betters" echoing in your ears. Made me say "ouch" when I read that!

182 Was Huntsman even a genuine candidate? I always thought he was an Axelturfer sent in to split the Romney vote and make the road that much longer and harder for him. Didn't quite work out that way, though. Even his "endorsement" of Romney before the SC primary seems calculated to undermine Mitt.

183

I hope you all will watch me in the debate tonight on Fox News. I will be brilliant. My hair will be perfect. There will be no questions about my record. But everyone else's record is fair game.

I will be declared the winner of the debate. Debates are the only thing that matter. That is why I have been preparing for them for years and years.

184 Huntsman, the weenie is strong with that one.

185 Meaning we have to spend 10 years bringing democracy (or trying to) to Iraq and Afghanistan in order to be exceptional? That seems to have gotten us a lot of expense, a not insignificant casualty list, and two regimes that don't seem to care for us much. Exceptional Success. Can we afford more exceptional successes like these? We intervened in Somalia for awhile. Exceptional results there, too. Libya is looking A-Ok now. An independent Kosovo - more success (KLA all the way)! Posted by: RioBravo at January 16, 2012 01:24 PM (eEfYn) Again it would be nice if you read the thread and things I have posted before. I said very clearly that we have to always reacess our strategy and tactics. Being the world's policemen does not mean you have build democracies and do the things we have done in Iraq and Afganistan, but it does mean that if you threaten America and threaten our vital interests and friends there will be consequences.

186 So basically, it's Eric Cartman's strategy for "marketing" Funland.

187 But weakening our Military only limits our options and strengthens our enemies. In the 21st Century we can not be Isolationists. And why do we have to be the World's Policemen? Well if you believe in American Exceptionalism, then that is one of the responsibilities also.

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:16 PM (i6RpT)

 

The first part I agree with.  Disarmament is not a good thing, though I think men of good faith can debate how much force we need to maintain in the field.  Part of why we maintain such expensive forces is our desire, I believe an unwise desire, to wage wars that have low casualties among our enemies.  It would be better to simply exterminate our enemies, smashing them into ruin, than to try to reform and fix them.  So long as we maintain enough smashing power, I think we're in good shape.

The second part I don't think is wise.  How do we judge what policing to do?  There's plenty of bad, bad stuff going on that we take no part in.  Some I think we should, if it can be done at a reasonable cost, the rest I think would be a waste of time.  It's not America's job to make the world a place of peace and harmony for all.  It's our job to protect our interests and our friends.  Nothing more.

188 Jack In 2000, MA became one of the first states to put Single Payer to the voters as a ballot issue. Ok I didn't know this. If you really want to know what started this nightmare go read up on the Emergency Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) which was signed by non-other than Ronald Reagan. Hmm.. Are we basically conceding defeat on ObamaCare? It's interesting that you mention DeMint-the liberals have tape of him-endorsing Romney and saying that RomneyCare would be good to bring to the rest of the nation. Also RomneyCare isn't funded in a vacuum-it has a federal subsidy-so even if it's a "state -issue" it is costing the nation. I get the argument that-supposedly it is federal taxes that Massachusetts pays getting sent back to their state-but that's just money that's just playing a book keeping game. Those funds could have contributed to the costs of say a national benefit-like- defense.

189 but it does mean that if you threaten America and threaten our vital interests and friends there will be consequences.

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:29 PM (i6RpT)

So how do we get there? The left and the Republican mainstream have pushed America's traditional foreign policy off the table. Now we've got an political constrained vision that runs from "bow and appease" to "try and work within the diktats of international bodies that mean us harm."

190 It's our job to protect our interests and our friends. Nothing more. Posted by: Reactionary at January 16, 2012 01:31 PM (xUM1Q) And that's what being the world's policemen really means. It is also in our interests to able to step in and stop a "Real" genocide if one seems to be occuring, however, I stress a real genocide.

191 182 - If you add Romney's record with his current rhetoric, it's hard to conclude anything other than that Romney is committed to whatever version of socialized medicine he find MOST palatable. Which is fine, if that's what you believe. But it's not the same as trying to sell yourself in a national election, to a party that is overwhelmingly against ANY form of socialized medicine. What we get from Romney though, is obfuscations that seem to be designed to fool us into believing something that is not true. And it will most likely work. Republicans will buy into the notion that Romney will "repeal" Obamacare. It's hard for some of us to believe what will replace/refine it though, will be any better. As you suggest, people like Reagan thought they could fine-tune the edges of a socialized medical delivery system. As with all government monsters though, they start small and get bigger over time.

192 "88 76- Dude, do you have a shorter version of this rant? I'll read Ace's long posts, but comments from people I don't know... nah. You seem to be mad though, so who knows, maybe you have something useful to say, but I'll never know unless you can be more...concise. Posted by: BurtTC at January 16, 2012 12:48 PM (Gc/Qi)" Jeebus. Really? You can't spare two minutes to read something someone else writes? Are you that emotionally and intellectually stunted in real life, or is this only for your online persona?

193 So how do we get there? The left and the Republican mainstream have pushed America's traditional foreign policy off the table. Now we've got an political constrained vision that runs from "bow and appease" to "try and work within the diktats of international bodies that mean us harm." Posted by: 18-1 at January 16, 2012 01:33 PM (7BU4a) We get there by stop being pussies and if county x threatens our interests, they just might find their oil industry destroyed or their industrial base destroyed. Shit like that

194 Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:29 PM (i6RpT)

I did read the thread. Thank you very much.

195 Was Huntsman even a genuine candidate? I always thought he was an Axelturfer sent in to split the Romney vote and make the road that much longer and harder for him. Didn't quite work out that way, though.

Yeah, he was a genuine candidate.  Just a bad one who for some reason thought that running as a moderate means you should actively alienate the base.

Granted it was in a relatively conservative state (I say relatively given that Harry Reid is still their Senator), but his record as governor wasn't half bad.

He's rich, had a governorship, then a cushy ambassador job China, and probably could've spend the rest of his life in politics had he wanted to.  He doesn't fit the "nothing to lose and everything to gain" profile of a vanity candidate like Cain or Bachmann who even with a loss stand to profit from book sales, paid speeches, TV gigs, etc.

196 Ace said "retard." I'm telling.

197 We get there by stop being pussies and if county x threatens our interests, they just might find their oil industry destroyed or their industrial base destroyed. Shit like that

Can't argue with that. Not very 'policemany' though!

198 It would be better to simply exterminate our enemies, smashing them into ruin, than to try to reform and fix them.

I was thinking the other day of the insanity of our ground rules in Iraq.

If you take up arms supporting the terrorists, you get the immediate support of a well funded interstate organization that exists through most of the Muslim world. If you get killed in action you'll get 72 virgins, probably a pay off from your family, and maybe even a pay off from the Americans (yes, we do it)!!! If you get captured you'll get 3 squares a day in internationally monitoring incarceration for a few months or a year. And when not specifically carrying arms you are inviolate.

So what if you oppose the Jihadis? Well, you'll get whatever the government is paying. If captured you'll be tortured to death. You are constantly a target. As is your family. And if the jihadis come to power? Your choices are flee or die.

199 Can't argue with that. Not very 'policemany' though! Posted by: RioBravo at January 16, 2012 01:39 PM (eEfYn) Then lets not get bogged down with terminology. We probably mostly agree. And 50 years ago the Police used to take delinquents behind the police station and things seemed to work out better in those days?

200
We get there by stop being pussies and if county x threatens our interests, they just might find their oil industry destroyed or their industrial base destroyed. Shit like that

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:37 PM (i6RpT)

Well, I think that is the end goal. How do we move from what we have now to that?

201 Your enemies hearts don't mind if they're dead...

202 Well, I think that is the end goal. How do we move from what we have now to that?

Find a new 'ruling class'.

203 The very idea of a police force implies that the citizenry, victims, criminals, and police all sort of agree that there is a "common" code that defines both acceptable and unacceptable behavior and that it will be enforced.

This is almost never the case in an international conflict (which might be why the founders embraced the concept of a Declaration of War and did not work out the nuances of a "kinetic military" or "police" action.  The best we could rationally do is subdue those nations that are inimical to the interests of the US, leave enough infrastructure behind that they can crawl out of the rubble and try again without our help, and know that we will repeat the lesson until they stop getting failing grades.

204 Can't argue with that. Not very 'policemany' though! Posted by: RioBravo at January 16, 2012 01:39 PM (eEfYn) Stop this PC crap and elect Lt Col West as President. That would be a good start. And tell the UN to fuck off.

205 Jeebus. Really? You can't spare two minutes to read something someone else writes?

Don't worry- I'll sum up your comment for you:

"I'm mad at Ace for dissing Independents because I like to pretend I'm an Independent even though my views are Republican and I vote Republican.  Because I'm disappointed with the Republican Party I'll just call myself an Independent rather than admit I'm a Republican, then fake indignation if Independents are insulted."

That about cover it?

206 I have to hit the trail but... Mitt Romney is being touted as a business wizard a numbers guy- he didn't even do that well in regards to RomneyCare. Mitt Romney's projections were wrong-RomneyCare is already $150 million over budget-(according to CATO) if it continues on that trajectory it is slated to cost Massachusetts something like $2 billion over the next eight years.

207 196 - GWB gets a bad rap these days, but does anybody remember the Axis of Evil? It was oversimplified, sure, but the point was, we start with a concept that is easy to understand. America and its allies are threatened by an axis (one that really does exist). We fight that axis where and how we find it. The other stuff? Yeah sorry, you all have your U.N. for that. Genocide? Bad stuff, but unless/until it looks like it's coming for us, we'll let the U.N. take the lead. Regimes changing? Again, how does it effect us? Libya? Screw 'em. Egypt? Sorry about all those pyramids and all that, but except for making sure the oil gets through, we don't have a dog in the fight. Iran developing nukes? You betcha! We got that, world. Just sit back and watch the show. Simple... sort of. And knowing what we now know from Iraq/Afghanistan, no nation-building. Period.

208 Stop this PC crap and elect Lt Col West as President. That would be a good start. And tell the UN to fuck off.

Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:43 PM (i6RpT)

This.

209 198 - Thanks for the reply. I'm more confident now that I made the right decision to not waste my time on you. Bye now.

210 Speaking of obnoxious, isn't there some guy named "Newt" still in this thing?

Listening to El Rushbo's rant today, and now starting to believe that just maybe he actually does want Prrsident Skeezicks to win.  Consider:  his army of ditto-heads will remain ever so much more cohesive with such a fat target, and forgetting the moolah, his ego needs to be fed like Jabba the Hutt.

And since he did mention Barry Goldwater as a True Conservative, let's not forget General Goldwater told the evangelicals to pound sand, and heresy of heresies was pro-choice.

This country is right of center but not "super-conservative."  At least not by today's Inquisitional standards.


"I don't give a faack who gays marry."  - Inspector Harry Callahan

211 Yeah, he was a genuine candidate.  Just a bad one who for some reason thought that running as a moderate means you should actively alienate the base.

Granted it was in a relatively conservative state (I say relatively given that Harry Reid is still their Senator), but his record as governor wasn't half bad.

Just pickin' a nit here, but isn't Harry Reid from Nevada, and Huntsman from Utah?

212 217 - All those brown states out west look the same.

213 Posted by: Doofus at January 16, 2012 01:52 PM (4WhSY)
Think they meant Sen Orren Hatch (RINO-UT)

214 Basically, I think conservatives need to go back to the drawing board and put forward a foreign policy that leave us less tied, but with a very consistent message that we will destroy you if you attack us.

Because our current major enemy is totally rational, deterrable and we should cede the initiative to them.  I mean it's not like they're goat-fucking crazies who suicide-bomb flea-markets and would do the same here if they weren't consumed with climbing back to the top of the Afghani dung-heap/poppy biz.

215 "Don't worry- I'll sum up your comment for you: "I'm mad at Ace for dissing Independents because I like to pretend I'm an Independent even though my views are Republican and I vote Republican. Because I'm disappointed with the Republican Party I'll just call myself an Independent rather than admit I'm a Republican, then fake indignation if Independents are insulted." That about cover it? Posted by: Hollowpoint at January 16, 2012 01:44 PM (SY2Kh)" Sure thing, champ. You keep fooling yourself into believing that. I'm a small-L libertarian, but have been registered as a Dem here in MD since moving here in '95, so that I actually have a bit of a voice in the primaries. Can't vote cross-party here. And this state is so Blue it's oxygen-deprived. So voting in the D primaries at least gives me some sort of faux satisfaction that I have a voice. I'm re-registering for the first time as a Republican, just so that I can pretend I have a say in the primary vote when it rolls through. After that? Doesn't matter. Unless a genuine third-party comes to being, we're fucked. And Burt. Go right ahead and keep your blinders on. I'm not going to change my style just because you've got your panties in a twist over my comment being ZOMYGODTOOLONGISHFORMYTROLLYLITTLEBRAIN!!!!111!! When you graduate from 8th grade, give me a shout. I may try to use smaller words, but only if I'm feeling particularly bored. Moron-nation is out in full force today. And not the good kind.

216 tasker- >>It's interesting that you mention DeMint-the liberals have tape of him-endorsing Romney and saying that RomneyCare would be good to bring to the rest of the nation. >>Also RomneyCare isn't funded in a vacuum-it has a federal subsidy-so even if it's a "state -issue" it is costing the nation. Not really. What Romney got was a one time grant from the Bush administration to try to find a solution to the health care problem that is causing huge strains on every state budget. States apply for these types of grants all the time and they are awarded for a wide variety of things. As to the abortion issue, its a bit of a red herring. Its been state law in MA since 1981 that any health care plan that receives any type of state subsidy would have to offer "prenatal" service to all women in the state. This has used to let poor women get abortion services since then as there have always been some sort of state subsidy. Every state offers subsidies in some form or another and liberal ones like MA use them for cover to do whatever the want. This predated Romney by about 2 decades. I have no idea if there is a better solution than the one Romney came up with. I hope so. But Obamacare is not what Romney came up with. First and foremost what Romney did was a state plan and was only designed to be a state plan. Different states have different challenges and should be allowed to do their own thing as the Constitution outlined.

217 Ron Paul couches his views of Israel the same way: That we should stop telling Israel how and when to defend themselves. Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:00 PM (i6RpT) Really? I could have sworn he said Israel made Gaza into a concentration camp and that assassination of Iranian scientists is an act of terror (as opposed to 9.11 which was a well deserved payment for meddling in foreign affairs). Stupid non-rEVOLutionist me.

218 "213 196 - GWB gets a bad rap these days, but does anybody remember the Axis of Evil? It was oversimplified, sure, but the point was, we start with a concept that is easy to understand. America and its allies are threatened by an axis (one that really does exist). We fight that axis where and how we find it. The other stuff? Yeah sorry, you all have your U.N. for that. Genocide? Bad stuff, but unless/until it looks like it's coming for us, we'll let the U.N. take the lead. Regimes changing? Again, how does it effect us? Libya? Screw 'em. Egypt? Sorry about all those pyramids and all that, but except for making sure the oil gets through, we don't have a dog in the fight. Iran developing nukes? You betcha! We got that, world. Just sit back and watch the show. Simple... sort of. And knowing what we now know from Iraq/Afghanistan, no nation-building. Period. Posted by: BurtTC at January 16, 2012 01:46 PM (Gc/Qi)" Okay. I take it back. Mostly. This is pretty much spot-on. You're not nearly as brain-dead as I thought. Sorry I took the cheap shot at you.

219

"It's difficult to like someone who clearly doesn't like you."

This! 

220
Because our current major enemy is totally rational, deterrable and we should cede the initiative to them.

Who said anything about ceding the initiative?

The great part of dropping the world policeman role is that we make the rules to best advance our interests and the UN, the Hague, and Brussels can build their own militaries if they don't like it.

221 Huntsman was a boutique vanity candidate, evidenced by his desire to pick and choose contests to participate in.  That's not a strategy for success over the long haul, just ask Rudy G.

Huntsman was NEVER going to be the GOP nominee, and was in the race to raise his personal profile for future runs--just as Cain and Bachmann did.

Reagan '76, McCain 2000, Romney '08.  Being a previous presidential contender is very important in the GOP for some reason.

222 On the subject of Romney, I think this past nine months have been a preparation by anti-conservatives for his being the Republican candidate. Too much seems to have been set in stone- OWS, pushing a class war, softball questions from media, highlighting other candidates mistakes while minimizing their strengths, luaPnites being promoted as the face of the GOP if Romney not chosen, the numbers games by the media on BLS unemployment numbers, ignoring the real costs of daily living [energy and food]. The GOP has been working behind the scenes to promote Romney as the guy to spend your money on [see Mosbacher comments]. I don't believe the other R candidates are staying in to be spoilers- I think they really see a danger in Romney or Obama as President.

223 Burt- >>If you add Romney's record with his current rhetoric, it's hard to conclude anything other than that Romney is committed to whatever version of socialized medicine he find MOST palatable. Which is fine, if that's what you believe. But it's not the same as trying to sell yourself in a national election, to a party that is overwhelmingly against ANY form of socialized medicine. Dirty little secret, you've been paying into socialized medicine for years and you will continue to no matter who is elected. In fact, there are multiple socialized medicine plans in the US. The most obvious are Medicaid and Medicare. Who do you think pays for those? You do. And you will continue to. But as I said, since Reagan signed EMTALA in 86, we have had socialized medicine for all. That act made it federal law that state could not turn away anyone from any hospital or healthcare facility which received any type of federal funding. What the feds didn't do was provide any money, unfunded mandate. All those women who come across the border to have their babies in Texas or California hospitals, who do you think pays for them? Anytime someone shows up at a hospital to be treated for the flu who do you think pays for them? The simple answer is we all do. We pay with our taxes and healthcare costs for those who don't or won't pay are continuing to take a larger part of every state budget. You might not like it but its true and that genie is not going back in the bottle. Take a look at any state budget. It's not just pensions for state workers that are blowing huge holes in them. Its healthcare costs to pay for those who can't or won't pay. All we are arguing about is how to pay for the costs; either come up with a plan like Romney's which says those who can pay must pay, come up with some other type of plan, or pay higher taxes. Any politician who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

224 Meanwhile, on MLK day, Holder beats the Jim Crow drum, speaking at a ceremony in Blackistan, decrying the SC voter ID thing. Bet they wish they had an MLK day every month during election years.

225

Ace

I think you need to tone down the trope that all "moderates" or "independents" are political morons. This is making the same mistake that liberals make when they dismiss conservatives as either stupid or evil.

It is true that many, probably most, of them class themselves as "moderates" or "independents" because they think so little about politics that they do not know where they are.

There is another segment, however, that think about politics a lot and find themselves uncomfortable with aspects of both parties. The Republican party today is a coalition of small government types, strong defense types, and social conservative types. These three positions can be made consistent, but they frequently are not in fact made consistent. You have people who are with us on one or two of those issues but not on all of them. Refusing to speak to them intelligently or respectfully, let alone insulting them, may lose a close election.

Of course, Huntsman was an idiot to insult, repeatedly, the majority of the party, but Republicans do not make up a majority of the voting public. Let's not make the same mistake about the general electorate that Huntsman made about the primary electorate. Some independents are politically engaged; let's engage them. As for the majority of them, we need their votes so let's be polite.     

226 Just pickin' a nit here, but isn't Harry Reid from Nevada, and Huntsman from Utah?

Errr... yes.  I got 'em confusd.  Shut up.

After all, Nevada is just Utah with more gambling, booze and hookers.

227 As I said before, I do expect Huntsman to be back as a major contender... probably the next "It's His Turn" guy... in the future. But he really has to shake off his damned smugness, and lose the Chinese crap.

228 Oh look another supercilious jackass finds out he's not as popular as he thinks he should be. Good riddance, Huntsman. Fucking disgusting man.

229

Hunstman doesn't have any name recognition w/ the masses of idiots who worship hollywood and know all the characters in the jersey shore show.

He didn't stand a chance, but yes, he just never seemed to like us.

230 "Of course, Huntsman was an idiot to insult, repeatedly, the majority of the party, but Republicans do not make up a majority of the voting public. Let's not make the same mistake about the general electorate that Huntsman made about the primary electorate. Some independents are politically engaged; let's engage them. As for the majority of them, we need their votes so let's be polite." Go away concern troll. Go with Huntsman, you two are made for each other. Conservatives make up 40% of the population, add it with conservative-leaning independents and self-described "moderates" who just don't want to identify themselves as conservative because their friends would look at them weird and you have a majority. No more pandering to leftists, a majority of the people are receptive to a conservative view, stop imagining that tacking to the center is the thing to always do.

231 because independents like seeing someone who, like themselves, is "independent minded," which is a nice way of saying "indecisive" and "irresolute."

I like the way you just throw that pearl in there in passing.

232 229 - Not so much a secret. We all know the government's role in our current health delivery systems. The question is, do we select a candidate who acknowledges this fact, and seeks a solution to reduce/minimize the government's role? Or do we select a candidate who is passionate about coming up with HIS government solution? Mitt Romney and Barack Obama are the latter. My response is "no thanks, someone else please."

233 Apologies for the length:

223 Ron Paul couches his views of Israel the same way: That we should stop telling Israel how and when to defend themselves.
Posted by: nevergiveup at January 16, 2012 01:00 PM (i6RpT)

Really? I could have sworn he said Israel made Gaza into a concentration camp and that assassination of Iranian scientists is an act of terror (as opposed to 9.11 which was a well deserved payment for meddling in foreign affairs).

Stupid non-rEVOLutionist me.

Posted by: Juicer at January 16, 2012 02:05 PM (jrCO7)

From a Ron Paul interview with the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz:

Q. The RJC characterized your views on Israel as “misguided and extreme”. Why do you think they view your views in that way?

Paul: I do not know, as I am the one candidate who would respect IsraelÂ’s sovereignty and not try to dictate to her about how she should deal with her neighbors. I supported IsraelÂ’s right to attack the Iraqi nuclear reactor in the 1980s, and I opposed President ObamaÂ’s attempt to dictate IsraelÂ’s borders this year.

Q. Do you think that the American debate on Israel is stifled?

Paul: There is no question that the problems of the Middle East have been intractable and may take new solutions and ideas. These ideas should all be openly discussed. I believe that my opinions have been distorted by those who want to continue AmericaÂ’s current role as world policeman, which we donÂ’t have the money or manpower to sustain.
My philosophy, like that of the Founding Fathers, is that we should use our resources to protect our nation. Our policies of intervention and manipulation in Iran and Iraq and other places have led to unintended consequences and have not made Israel safer. Many in the Jewish community share my opinion, and itÂ’s vital for both nations that we continue to have an open dialogue.

Q. In a 2007 clip that is on YouTube, you say, “Israel should be treated like everybody else”. Is that still your position, or do you believe that Israel and the United States have a “special relationship”?

Q. Well, we do have some unique arrangements. We trade intelligence in areas when it serves our mutual interest, for instance. But I believe we have gone too far, to IsraelÂ’s detriment. Instead of being her friend, we have dominated her foreign policy.

Q. In that same clip, you also say that the motivation of al-Qaida for the 9/11 attacks was American support for Israel. Do you still believe that?

Paul: I think most people in the Middle East and probably in Israel would agree that this was a major factor. That in itself does not make our policies right or wrong. Our policies need to be discussed on their own merits, but as a matter of course, yes, our support of Israel has made us enemies.
Other U.S. policies, such as our stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia and our support for repressive regimes in the region, also play a role in hostilities to the U.S. Those in the Arab world who object to the U.S.Â’ support for dictatorships and to our military presence there often see Israel as the agent of the U.S. Thus, not only do IsraelÂ’s relations with the U.S. cause some negative feelings toward America, but they further Arab hostility toward Israel, which is one reason why Israel would be better off without U.S. aid.

Q. In the Fox News presidential debate you expressed understanding and even sympathy for the Iran having nuclear weapons. But Israelis view an Iranian nuclear capability as an existential threat to their country. Do you disagree? Do you not believe Iranian leaders who say that Israel should be “wiped off the map”?

Paul: I am against the spread of nuclear weapons. But I do understand why other nations want them and why they donÂ’t accept the nuclear monopoly as it now stands. You cannot change an opinion you donÂ’t understand. I understand it and would try to change it.
However, thereÂ’s a key fact that it seems is being overlooked when my positions are discussed. I believe IÂ’m the only candidate who would allow Israel to take immediate action to defend herself without having to get our approval. Israel should be free to take whatever steps she deems necessary to protect her national security and sovereignty.

234 Screwed up the link, the link to the previous interview should be:

http://tinyurl.com/d4y4quq

235

It can't be possible that I'm the only person here to see the interview with the founder of Staples this morning. JackStraw, you would have enjoyed it.

This was a man who started a company for which nobody but Bain would lend him money. He said others laughed at him for suggesting folks could save money on things like paper clips. He said that not only did Bain invest, but they hung around to see it succeed when Romney sat on the board for 15 years. He said he was an incredible leader and the best boardmember with whom he had worked. As for the 100k jobs, he made sure to point out that the little company in which Bain invested now employees 95k people.

This was a man who could not have had a more glowing review of what it meant to work with Bain and Romney.

We NEED a businessman right now and we need someone with executive experience.

I still want Perry but, short of that, I will gladly take Romney.

236 Who said anything about ceding the initiative?

You did right here.
"we will destroy you if you attack us. "

Why should we wait for any of them?  This isn't a Western.  Shoot First.
They've proven they'll keep attacking us until they're destroyed.  The question now is 10s of thousands of hirabists, millions of jihadis or ?cide (not sure what the prefix would be for killing an entire religion, theocide would be its God right?)

The great part of dropping the world policeman role is that we make the rules to best

The rules & lawfare have been >70% fail in GWOT so far.  The strategy of killing them over there vs. over here still works.

We probably mostly agree here but World Policeman of Pax Americana is the family business we inherited from Pax Brittainica.  There's going to be one & nobody else even slightly qualifies yet.

237 #239 NOYB Paul would say the same about any of the Arab states also. Ask him if he would come to Israels aid if they are attacked by Egypt or Syria.

238 It's difficult to like someone who clearly doesn't like you.

See: John McCain, et al.

239 Guess who is the top internet retailer after Amazon?  According to this, it is Staples.  I guess that Bain investment was a good bet.  http://tinyurl.com/24yteb7

240 None of these guys like us very much--some just fake it better than others!

241
Why should we wait for any of them?  This isn't a Western.  Shoot First.

I think you mistook my statement. I see no need to wait for an attack or even, as was debated in the early 00s, wait for an "imminent" attack.

Of course, judgement needs to be maintained. So, for example, Iran's nuclear build up is a direct threat - they want to use their nukes to attack or pressure Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf States.

China's conventional build up, by contrast, is no short term threat and our role should be to denounce their internal political order, but leave them alone otherwise.

242 So with Perry and Santorum occupying the bottom, and Santorum more popular than Perry ... how soon till they drop? I'd venture, less than a month.

243 176 O/T

Hey Emperor, did you see that story those bigots at teh NY Times wrote about Mormons yesterday?

These bigots are breaking out everywhere, you need to write them.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual

I read it.  The article = unbigoted.  You = bigoted.

Nothing personal.

 

244 186 At some point you have to stop your breathless Romney hate and actually  make the case for somebody else.  And those somebody else's all suck too.

Outside of Huntsman, the "suck" of the other candidates is nothing compared to Romney. 

Posted by: 18-1

 

I'm afraid I can't agree.  Once you broaden the scope of your inquiry and look at political record, executive experience, campaign ability, personal character, and personal qualities, you realize that we have a pretty flawed group with not much to prefer between one or the other.  My suspicion is that people who think differently have often emotionally committed to one candidate or else have emotionally invested in hatred of one candidate.  Though, to be fair, I realize that people who are just as genuinely conservative as me can have different evaluations and rate the importance of factors differently than I do.  Which is a realization you haven't made, it seems.

245 201 Granted it was in a relatively conservative state (I say relatively given that Harry Reid is still their Senator), but his record as governor wasn't half bad.

Posted by: Hollowpoint

 

Harry Reid is Nevada's Senator.  Jon Huntsman was Utah's Governor.

Huntsman could have governed much more to the right than he did, but who cares now?

246 My question after reading that BuzzFeed article earlier in the day and having previously heard, as you say, that "John Huntsman actually had a good conservative record, in the main, in Utah"...is what is the truth?

247 Now he can just kill himself and get it over with.