July 01, 2012

July 1, 1898
— Dave in Texas

The Battle of San Juan Hill. One hundred and fourteen years ago today.

San Juan Hill.jpeg


The decisive battle of the Spanish-American War, but a costly one. And one that showed how armament technology can make the difference. The American forces carried inferior Krag-Jørgensen* .30 bolt action rifles, and outmoded artillery pieces that could not reach Spanish positions.

The Spaniards were armed with 7 mm Mauser M1893 rifles which were much more effective. And as a result, owning the heights with superior firepower, a Spanish force of less than a thousand men held off a US and Cuban assault of almost 20,000.

Theodore Roosevelt commanded the First United States Volunteer Cavalry, the "Rough Riders". Initially not part of the tactical battle plan, intended to be used as a diversionary force they instead found themselves in the middle of the battle, and realizing their fire could not knock the enemy from position, instead charged Kettle Hill, supported by three Gatling guns.

The Gatlings suppressed a Spanish counter-attack. And the American Army had a hero and a reason to ditch the Krag. The Springfield 1903 would be the American infantryman's rifle until WWII and the M-1 Garand.

The Marines were skeptical. They loved the Springfield that much.

* Using authentic slash through the letter O because a Møøse once bit my sister...

Posted by: Dave in Texas at 01:18 PM | Comments (276)
Post contains 226 words, total size 2 kb.

1 It's a good thing the Cubans are free now.

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at July 01, 2012 01:29 PM (QTHTd)

2 The White House is kinda up on a hill.

Posted by: Big Johansson at July 01, 2012 01:31 PM (aZcPb)

3 Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yer?

Well, other than the fact that it's filled with dirty Scandis.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:36 PM (6TB1Z)

4 Of which I am on.  Fear my Norse vengeance.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:36 PM (6TB1Z)

5 on = one

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:36 PM (6TB1Z)

6 The e was stolen by a moose.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:37 PM (6TB1Z)

7 Halloooooooo?

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:37 PM (6TB1Z)

8 The first .30-06 rifle I ever fired was a sporterized '03-A3.. Great shooter.

Posted by: Andy at July 01, 2012 01:40 PM (NSHE+)

9 Mind yøu, them møøse bites can be pretti nasti...

Posted by: Captain Whitebread at July 01, 2012 01:40 PM (A2LXE)

10 (We apologize for comment #9. Captain Whitebread has been sacked.)

Posted by: The Llama Brothers at July 01, 2012 01:41 PM (A2LXE)

11 How did you make the o with a slash through it?

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:41 PM (6TB1Z)

12 Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yer?

Well, other than the fact that it's filled with dirty Scandis Muslim radicals.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 05:36 PM (6TB1Z)

FIFY

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at July 01, 2012 01:42 PM (nEUpB)

13 The Krag-Jorgensen was to rifles as John Roberts is to Supreme Court Justices. Which is to say: A piece of shit.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 01:42 PM (IoNBC)

14 12 Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yer?

Well, other than the fact that it's filled with dirty Scandis Muslim radicals.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 05:36 PM (6TB1Z)

FIFY

Hahahahaha......

*sob*

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:45 PM (6TB1Z)

15 8 The first .30-06 rifle I ever fired was a sporterized '03-A3.. Great shooter. Yeah, they're awesome, aren't they. You've got to admire the German's technology in the Mauser. Even after all this time, there's not much that can compete with it.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 01:46 PM (IoNBC)

16 Also, I notice that there are lots of Village People-type moustaches, but that guy at Teddy's 0800 with the pointy toes is definitely a "modern" kind of soldier, IYKWIMAITYD.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 01:47 PM (6TB1Z)

17 Think Teddy Roosevelt bowed to many Foreign Leaders?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 01, 2012 01:50 PM (j1gX1)

18 Tiger self destructing again down the stretch

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 01, 2012 01:51 PM (j1gX1)

19 Germans'. What I mean to say is that the Springfield '03 was essentially a copy of Mauser technology. Even now, 120 years later, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better design. Fucking awesome.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 01:51 PM (IoNBC)

20 From a couplathreads back.  Maybe willow?

wd40 (already done isn't working)

Didn't see anyone mention, spray, tap with hammer, repeat.  Somehow vibes help penetrants do their stuff.  Added caution,  it ain't worth a busted knuckle, finger or worse.

Posted by: DaveA at July 01, 2012 01:51 PM (XG53A)

21 My parents honeymooned in Cuba. Hmmm. I think the 4th guy from the right in the back row may be my dad.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at July 01, 2012 01:52 PM (C8mVl)

22 Yet more proof of AmeriKKKa oppressing people of color! How dare you celebrate those evil Anglo-normative imperialist oppressors! SOCIAL JUSTICE requires that they be condemned for the H8ers that they are! Thankfully that dreamy Che Guevera singlehandedly defeated the evil AmeriKKKan imperialists! Now the Cuban people are free and have flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children dance and laugh and play with gumdrop smiles. No Justice! No Peace! No Justice! No Peace! No Justice! No Peace!

Posted by: Social Studies Graduate Student at July 01, 2012 01:55 PM (XYqoq)

23 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:01 PM (Xb3hu)

24 Sunday. Where Open Threads go to die. I shot my first 30.06 when I was eight. Was in my neighbors house in their loft. The gun cabinet was not locked and the rifle was loaded. I pulled it out to look at it and when it was pointing downward it went off. The bullet went through the floor. Through the second floor and out the wall of the first floor bathroom. It made progressively bigger holes on it's way. Yeah. You could say I have a healthy respect for firearms now.

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 02:03 PM (MG6Y6)

25 TR is my favorite president.

Posted by: goddessoftheclassroom at July 01, 2012 02:06 PM (I4UIl)

26 I did work for an old guy whose father was a Rough Rider. He had a nice glass display case with his father's uniform, decorations, saddle and rifle. Nice old man. He was a real Brujo. Taught me how to cook beans and tortillas properly and slaughter chickens as not to make them tough and hard to digest.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 02:08 PM (BAnPT)

27 Is it safe to come out yet?  The holy war over with?

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 02:09 PM (R5yLq)

28 Unlike today's "black rifles," the Springfield 1903 could reach out and touch someone. No surprise that the Marines, who always emphasized marksmanship, would be particularly enamored of it. A 700-yard range is not to be sniffed at.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 02:10 PM (IoNBC)

29 TR is my favorite president.


Uh, wow, just wow, or Gulp, or stunned silence. Not sure what to say.

Posted by: cm9000 at July 01, 2012 02:10 PM (lzvtR)

30 http://tinyurl.com/8823y9v

Second pic down.

Posted by: sTevo at July 01, 2012 02:10 PM (VMcEw)

31 30 Is it safe to come out yet? The holy war over with?

Wha happened?

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 02:12 PM (6TB1Z)

32 Unlike today's "black rifles," the Springfield 1903 could reach out and touch someone. No surprise that the Marines, who always emphasized marksmanship, would be particularly enamored of it. A 700-yard range is not to be sniffed at.

Sniff.. sniff.. oh, wait.. not to be.. nevermind

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 02:12 PM (R5yLq)

33
Fixed.  Move along, nothing to see here..

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 02:13 PM (R5yLq)

34 US 10th Cavalry (a regular Army "colored" unit known as the "Buffalo Soldiers") carried at least its share of the fighting, and reached the summit of Kettle Hill first.  One of it's officers, Lt. John Pershing, was waiting for Roosevelt at the top of the hill.  The 10th's contributions were later minimized due to racism and Roosevelt's relentless self-promotion in the press.

Posted by: Larry at July 01, 2012 02:13 PM (m+4Co)

35 President Obama this month participated in 33 fundraisers, a rate of just over one a day and more than eight times the number of fundraising events George W. Bush did in June 2004, the year of Bush’s reelection campaign. The Obama fundraising tally — courtesy of the most trusted White House statistician, CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller — suggests a president furiously grasping for cash as his campaign fails to meet its fundraising targets and suddenly finds itself outraised by Mitt Romney. Bush did only four fundraisers in June 2004 and by the end of the month had attended 82 since the start of his campaign in 2003, less than half the 172 Obama has done since he filed for reelection in April 2011.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:16 PM (Xb3hu)

36 There was a homely girl, Helen something, that worked for the local newspaper. Kept asking if 'the Roosevelt guy is Jewish'

Posted by: Spanish-American War vet at July 01, 2012 02:17 PM (z9HTb)

37 That picture is cropped to feature just Roosevelt and the 1st Volunteer Cavalry ("Rough Riders").  The original has the 3rd Cavalry on the left, and the colored troopers of the 10th Cavalry on the right.

Posted by: Larry at July 01, 2012 02:17 PM (m+4Co)

38 WALLACE: “This is a tax increase on the middle class of $27 billion over the next ten years.” LEW: “No, what this is is this is a law that says if you can afford insurance and you choose not to buy it and you choose to have your health costs be a burden to others, you’ll pay a penalty so that you’ll pay our fair share. That’s what this law says. “For the 99% of people who buy insurance or who get it through the tax cuts that are in this Act, they’re not going to be affected. You keep your insurance, you don’t pay any kind of penalty.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:18 PM (Xb3hu)

39 The Obama fundraising tally — courtesy of the most trusted White House statistician, CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller — suggests a president furiously grasping for cash as his campaign fails to meet its fundraising targets and suddenly finds itself outraised by Mitt Romney.

O will be giving quickies in back of the "Pep Boys" if things don't improve for him.  Well, assuming he isn't already.

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 02:19 PM (6TB1Z)

40 9th and 10th Cav were there. Wish you had mentioned them.

Posted by: Joe Bethancourt at July 01, 2012 02:20 PM (/uhAy)

41 Justice Roberts used a 7 mm Mauser M1893 rifle on The Constitution while conservatives shot back with crappy .30 caliber Krag-Jørgensen rifles.

Posted by: Overly Fixated at July 01, 2012 02:21 PM (7+pP9)

42 Posted by: Larry at July 01, 2012 06:17 PM (m+4Co) Do you know of a link to the uncropped picture? I'd love to see a picture with the 10th included.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 02:23 PM (IoNBC)

43 My grandfather was a Spanish military cadet stationed Puerto Rico during the Spanish American War.  He told me that overall he was happy the American won -- they gave him the option of becoming a US Citizen which gave him a glorious excuse to get out of the Spanish military.  He detested military life and eventually ended up a college professor.

Posted by: rabidfox at July 01, 2012 02:23 PM (MM6S7)

44 Manhunt the movie with Lee Marvyn and Charles Bronson,
And a desirable Angie Dickinson I will add ,
 featured a Kraig rifle in the hands of Lee Marvyn. Never understood how a former combat man had that prop in his hands being a former decorated combat Marine. I would have thought Marvyn would have suggested at least an Eddystone for that flick.

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 02:24 PM (4SwJN)

45 "President Obama this month participated in 33 fundraisers, a rate of just over one a day and more than eight times the number of fundraising events George W. Bush did in June 2004, the year of BushÂ’s reelection campaign."


The President needs to appeal to the people for small donations as Mitt Romney bundlers are hiding a cloak of anonymity while raising millions in special-interest dollars.

Posted by: MSMDNC at July 01, 2012 02:26 PM (lzvtR)

46 But on May 21, 2012, NASCAR may have choked off that five-year plan before it could get any traction. On that day, NASCAR inked a deal with the Obama EPA. Under the terms of the three-year pact, NASCAR will “stimulate participation in EPA programs” and “foster greater environmental awareness among NASCAR fans.” The EPA will identify the environmental “programs and messages that are best suited for promoting environmental stewardship and sustainable behavior.” NASCAR is charged with “encouraging greater environmental awareness and sustainable behavior by their fans.” In other words, NASCAR is now an official EPA apparatchik charged with shoving the agency’s Orwellian propaganda down the throats of its fans in an attempt to change their behavior. NASCAR has essentially agreed to become a corporate crony of the EPA’s job and wealth shredding machine. For a sport that has always prized independence, raw power, and American traditions (invocations and military flyovers start each race), this may be too much for its core fans to swallow. Yet the move follows a recent and steady progression. For the last couple of years, NASCAR has been drifting leftward, synching with the turns its drivers routinely make as they lap oval racetracks. On Earth Day 2012, NASCAR released its “sustainability white paper” that includes on-track “successes” such as a 25-acre solar farm to power Pocono Raceway. In 2010, the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) announced an agreement to sponsor Jeff Gordon’s No. 24 Chevrolet to promote its foundation. This is the same AARP that fights entitlement reform while it lobbies for greater federal largess. This is the same AARP that annually siphons tens of millions of dollars in federal grants as a registered nonprofit charity. This is the same AARP that vigorously pushed for congressional passage of the much-reviled Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). It was then granted a sweetheart waiver from the law’s mandates that regulate the Medigap policies AARP sells. Then there’s NASCAR’s embrace of ethanol. Partnering with American Ethanol, NASCAR has launched a PR campaign touting the benefits of E15 fuels — that is, gasoline blended with 15 percent ethanol fermented from corn. There are promotions at the tracks and commercials run during races promoting the fuel. Cars in NASCAR races have been fueled by E15 since the 2011 Daytona 500. NASCAR claims “renewable” ethanol is environmentally friendly, generates “green” jobs, reduces dependence on foreign oil, and improves engine performance and horsepower. NASCAR fans, the racing body says, are 40 percent more likely than non-fans to support using ethanol to bolster energy independence.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:27 PM (Xb3hu)

47 Good thing John Roberts wasn't in charge of that group. All the pressure from the enemy guns would have made him switch sides and find in favor of the Spanish claim on Cuba.

Posted by: ray at July 01, 2012 02:28 PM (wl2vr)

48 @ 13 you got a strong punch.
Nice..

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 02:30 PM (4SwJN)

49 Good thing John Roberts wasn't in charge of that group. All the pressure from the enemy guns would have made him switch sides and find in favor of the Spanish claim on Cuba.

Only if the Spanish claim on Cuba was a tax.

Posted by: Not Drinking Nearly Enough at July 01, 2012 02:31 PM (HtUdo)

50 For a sport that has always prized independence, raw power, and American traditions (invocations and military flyovers start each race), this may be too much for its core fans to swallow.

The Obamanites are utterly tone-deaf when it comes to politics.  They got lucky with a one-in-a-million confluence of circumstances in 2008, and now they think they're Zen masters of politics. 

Part of the art of manipulating people is to hide the fact that you're trying to manipulate them.  Lefties have no sense of proportionality and decorum, so they always overreach.  At that point, either they start putting people up against the wall or it's "adios lefties".

Posted by: pep at July 01, 2012 02:32 PM (6TB1Z)

51 "Rough Riders" is a movie about this.  Although it follows TRs people, it covers the Buffalo Soldiers very well.  A well done movie overall with some  pretense to historical accuracy.

Posted by: rabidfox at July 01, 2012 02:32 PM (MM6S7)

52 Iraqi women face court-ordered virginity tests that often show they were virgins until marriage but shame them nonetheless, doctors at an institute that carries out the tests and a lawyer told AFP. Remaining a virgin until marriage can be an issue of life or death for women in the Middle East, where those who are seen as having dishonored the family by having premarital sex are sometimes killed by male relatives. An average of several virginity tests are performed per day at the Medical Legal Institute (MLI) in Baghdad, in a small windowless room with blue-tiled walls and a black table with leg stirrups at one end.... “Most of the cases we received after the first day of marriage,” said Dr. Munjid al-Rezali, the director of the MLI. “The husband claim that she is not a virgin, and then the family brings her here, through the courts, this all come through the courts, and we examine her,” Rezali said, speaking in English. “It’s not uncommon, we are seeing a lot,” he added.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:33 PM (Xb3hu)

53 Krags weren't bad weapons it's just that the Mauser was better.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:38 PM (Xb3hu)

54

Surprise Virginity Test in the Morning?

 

Posted by: Ronco Replaceable Hymen at July 01, 2012 02:39 PM (oEC+c)

55 Embarassing Balance Beam Incident?

Posted by: Ronco Replaceable Hymen at July 01, 2012 02:39 PM (oEC+c)

56 Brother mistake you for his favorite goat?

Posted by: Ronco Replaceable Hymen at July 01, 2012 02:40 PM (oEC+c)

57 Worry No More!

Posted by: Ronco Replaceable Hymen at July 01, 2012 02:40 PM (oEC+c)

58 Free boob squeeze and anal probe with every court-ordered virginity test all this month.

Posted by: The Baghdad Medical Legal Insititute at July 01, 2012 02:42 PM (6j180)

59 An NBC meteorologist said Friday the record heat wave sweeping part of the country is the result of global warming. Doug Kammerer, chief meteorologist for WRC-TV in Washington, D.C., gave his explanation of the extreme temperatures during a news weather update. (Related: A ‘Ring of Fire’: Just What Were the Deadly Thunderstorms That Tore Through the Eastern U.S.?) “I was on the radio today talking with some of the folks from WMZQ and they said, ‘Doug is this global warming and what’s going on?’ If we did not have global warming, we wouldn’t see this,” Kammerer said. “I really believe that, I really think that this is because — maybe we would have seen 101, maybe we would have seen 102, but not 104.” He continued, “We have set all-time records all across the entire portion of the country. St. Louis hit 108 yesterday, Nashville, Tennessee hit 109 degrees during the day today. That is extreme heat and these are all-time records that have come up here.”

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:43 PM (Xb3hu)

60 It's not the "First United States Volunteer Cavalry."  It was the "First United States Irregular Cavalry."

It's important because it's an easy to find example of the use of the term 'irregular cavalry' to mean 'untrained' as opposed to 'regular troops' as troops who have trained together ie, 'an Army regular.'

This is the derivation of the term 'well-regulated militia.'


Posted by: luagha at July 01, 2012 02:43 PM (+lNDQ)

61 I get more angry at John Roberts every day.Fuck you,John Roberts,you worthless sack of shit.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:44 PM (Xb3hu)

62 "Every man holds his property subject to the general right of the community to regulate its use to whatever degree the public welfare may require it."

     --Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 01, 2012 02:44 PM (BN3s8)

63 Good thing John Roberts wasn't in charge of that group. All the pressure
from the enemy guns would have made him switch sides and find in favor
of the Spanish claim on Cuba.

Only if the Spanish claim on Cuba was a tax.
Posted by: Not Drinking Nearly Enough at July 01, 2012 06:31 PM

Trust me, it can be.

Posted by: Chief Justice Roberts at July 01, 2012 02:46 PM (bAGA/)

64 "The vast individual and corporate fortunes, the vast combinations of capital which have marked the development of our industrial system, create new conditions, and necessitate a change from the old attitude of the state and the nation toward property... More and more it is evident that the State -- and if necessary the nation -- has got to possess the right of supervision and control as regards the great corporations which are its creatures."

--Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 01, 2012 02:47 PM (BN3s8)

65


 >>--Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said.

 

To be fair, we were licking toads earlier  that night.

Posted by: Zombie Teddy R. at July 01, 2012 02:47 PM (oEC+c)

66 >>because a Møøse once bit my sister...

Wasn't me.

Posted by: Mr. Moose at July 01, 2012 02:47 PM (/kI1Q)

67 But not really welfare-welfare.

Posted by: sTevo at July 01, 2012 02:47 PM (VMcEw)

68


>>>--Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said.

 

 

Like you never said that trying to get a piece of ass?

C'mon.

Posted by: Zombie Teddy R. at July 01, 2012 02:48 PM (oEC+c)

69 I rather think I have a newfound respect for this Roberts fellow.

Posted by: Vidkun Quisling at July 01, 2012 02:48 PM (6j180)

70 68 "Every man holds his property subject to the general right of the community to regulate its use to whatever degree the public welfare may require it." --Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said. Posted by: OregonMuse at July 01, 2012 06:44 PM Did he really say that? If so, Kelo, goddammit!

Posted by: Ruth Bader Ginsburg at July 01, 2012 02:49 PM (IoNBC)

71 "As a matter of personal conviction, and without pretending to discuss the details or formulate the system, I feel that we shall ultimately have to consider the adoption of some such scheme as that of a progressive tax on all fortunes, beyond a certain amount, either given in life or devised or bequeathed upon death to any individual – a tax so framed as to put it out of the power of the owner of one of these enormous fortunes to hand on more than a certain amount to any one individual; the tax of course, to be imposed by the national and not the state government. Such taxation should, of course, be aimed merely at the inheritance or transmission in their entirety of those fortunes swollen beyond all healthy limits."

--Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said.

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 01, 2012 02:49 PM (BN3s8)

72 The @RomneyBus (#beepbeep) was loaded with 25K bottles of water in Columbus, OH for storm relief.

What has the SCOMAT campaign done?

Posted by: Retread at July 01, 2012 02:50 PM (I2fq9)

73 70 That was at a time when there were individuals who were far wealthier than the US government.Imagine that,the US government was tiny,tax recepits were tiny.The negative was we lacked the military muscle we should have had with an economy of that size.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:50 PM (Xb3hu)

74 No way it was 1898.  I was there.

Posted by: Joe "Shoot 'em Up" Biden at July 01, 2012 02:51 PM (9qNZ9)

75 BTW. In regards to my 30.06 post above, I have a question. Maybe the Horde can school me. When I was busted after shooting up my neighbors house I didn't get punished. At the Inquisition with the entire family present, the father did not turn his focus on me. He wanted to know why a rifle was in the cabinet with rounds in it. Apparently he kept them elsewhere. His son took some serious heat that day. But at what I will always consider "Riding's trial of shame" he unloaded the weapon and put the rounds on the table. Here's the question. The bullet part of the rounds were black. Why paint something like that?

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 02:51 PM (MG6Y6)

76 >>“We have set all-time records..."

I'm calling bullshit on "all-time".  Records of measurements taken with any precision have only been kept since the late 19th century--maybe later than that, in some counties.

Posted by: HeatherRadish™ at July 01, 2012 02:52 PM (/kI1Q)

77 Actually, the Krag Jorgenson wasn't a bad rifle, although outclassed by the Mauser.   Its magazine had to be fed one round at a time, as opposed to the stripper clip system of the Mauser which allowed you to charge the magazine with 5 rounds at a time.  Thus, the Krag's rate of fire suffered in comparison.  The Krag's smokeless powder .30-40 cartridge had a lower muzzle velocity and was not quite as accurate as the 7X57 millimeter Mauser cartridge.  However, the Krag was far superior to what most U.S. troops, including Black Jack Pershing's 10th Cavalry, were armed with: the M1873 Trapdoor Springfield single shot carbine, which fired a blackpowder cartridge.  As a matter of fact, Roosevelt had pulled politcal strings to ensure his 1st Volunteer Cavalry got Krags.  If you've ever shot a Krag, you'll know that it's got one of the smoothest bolt actions ever designed.

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at July 01, 2012 02:53 PM (zQHcQ)

78
   Hell with all that, I'm now officially looking for a Garand to keep the M-14 company.  Awfully pricey, but I don't give a shit.   I still miss that weapon.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 01, 2012 02:54 PM (SAMxH)

79 That was at a time when there were individuals who were far wealthier than the US government. And this is supposed to be a problem? Why?

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 02:55 PM (IoNBC)

80 82 Of course,the guy is an asshole.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:56 PM (Xb3hu)

81

 braaaiiiiinns

 

aaaaasssssss!

Posted by: Zombie Teddy Roosevelt at July 01, 2012 02:57 PM (oEC+c)

82 86 Only in what I said if you read the rest.The US for it's economic power was very weak militarily.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:58 PM (Xb3hu)

83 Here's the question. The bullet part of the rounds were black. Why paint something like that?

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 06:51 PM (MG6Y6)

 

------------------->>>

IIRC, black tip indicated steel-core armor piercing.  Red tip indicated tracers.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at July 01, 2012 02:58 PM (M0NzJ)

84 Posted by: irongrampa at July 01, 2012 06:54 PM (SAMxH) I think the M14 is the best combat rifle ever made. I love the Garand too, because it's cute as hell. I can't afford either one.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 02:58 PM (IoNBC)

85 @41 The Wikipedia article on the Rough Riders has the uncropped photo. Thanks for mentioning this, I was unaware that there was a "colored" unit in the RR.

Posted by: jbarntt at July 01, 2012 02:59 PM (UNFot)

86 85 There is some program where veterans can get an M-1 free or at minimal cost.I could swear I reead about in in my American Rifleman magazine once.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 02:59 PM (Xb3hu)

87 @ 81 they were armor piercing civilian,

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 02:59 PM (4SwJN)

88 83 Didn't it have a fold out gate you laid the cartridges on?Still slower than charger loading but not too bad.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:01 PM (Xb3hu)

89 There is some program where veterans can get an M-1 free or at minimal cost. Not free but a good price for the service grade. http://www.odcmp.com/sales.htm

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 03:01 PM (QupBk)

90 Oh, it pierces armor.

Posted by: Dick Chenney at July 01, 2012 03:01 PM (oEC+c)

91 @ 90 Blue tip get everybody

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 03:02 PM (4SwJN)

92 Hell, I would've armed the Spanish with assault weapons.

Posted by: Eric "The Red" Holder, Jr at July 01, 2012 03:03 PM (BVkEs)

93 @  91

    Took Basic with the Garand, shot expert with it, carried it until USAEUR, where we were issued the M-14.  Fell in love with that weapon, I carried it until late 67.
  
     I did a "born on" check of my Garand (still remember the serial#) it was built in July of 1941. Makes me wonder if it ever saw combat.

 

Posted by: irongrampa at July 01, 2012 03:03 PM (SAMxH)

94 How did you make the ø with a slash through it?
Force it through with Nut Eaze or Nut Buster.

Posted by: andycanuck at July 01, 2012 03:04 PM (nrW1y)

95 101 M-1 carbines are cute though.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:05 PM (Xb3hu)

96

There is some program where veterans can get an M-1 free or at minimal cost.

 

WIth the new stolen valor ruling that means you can have one too, citizen of the world. 

You are palnning on taking it to Mexico, right? 

Posted by: Eric Holder at July 01, 2012 03:05 PM (oEC+c)

97 @100  Yep we agree on that the new M1A, Is a king Of  modern technology, the new Army is thinking of reissue.

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 03:07 PM (4SwJN)

98 The Krag wasn't a bad rifle; it's just that the action couldn't handle high pressures so the 30-40 was outclassed by the 7mm.  That's why we basically stole the Mauser action and developed the .30 caliber.  The initial .30-03 (not that is NOT a typo) had a round-tipped bullet.  The late .30-06 had a pointed bullet patterned after the Mauser spitzer bullet loaded at higher pressures than the earlier .30-03.  That's why you can't safely fire .30-06 cartridges in the earliest Springfield rifles because they were designed for the .30-03 cartridge.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at July 01, 2012 03:08 PM (M0NzJ)

99 I've never quite heard a Garand described that way. My first thought as well. The M1 is excellent for beating someone to death if you run out of magazines.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 03:08 PM (QupBk)

100 Here's the question. The bullet part of the rounds were black. Why paint something like that?


Agreed with the other commenters. It was armor piercing. Steel Core.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:09 PM (BAnPT)

101

@83:  Yes, the Krag had a side-loading box magazine.  You would load each of the 5 rounds individually into the magazine.

And anyone wondering why M1 Garands and M1 Carbines are getting so expensive ought to write their Congress Critter and ask why Hillary's State Department is blocking the re-importation of thousands of these great old guns from South Korea.  We gave them to the ROKs during the late "Police Action" and now they are surplus -- and the Koreans want to make them available (for a price) on the American civilian market.  The State Deparment is understandably in a hissy fit.

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at July 01, 2012 03:10 PM (zQHcQ)

102 @ 106 did I mention Happiness to a Wolverine is crushed Buckeye nuts?
Heh Heh

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 03:11 PM (4SwJN)

103 Teddy jumped on the Progressive bandwagon for sure. Despite the fact that the dangers and perversity of Progressivism were well recognized even back then, I still cut the lefties of a century ago some slack. It is one thing to embrace statism in 1900 and an entirely other thing to embrace it in 2000, when its actual practice has been observed from Detroit to Pyongyang. In any case, regardless of holding many foolish political opinions, TR was an extraordinary individual.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at July 01, 2012 03:11 PM (C8mVl)

104 @ 103 you live in California and Channel Audy Murphy

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 03:13 PM (4SwJN)

105 @  109
 
      Hissy fits at the thought of all those weapons in the hands of civilians, I suspect. 
 
     Especially the ones who know how to use them.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 01, 2012 03:13 PM (SAMxH)

106
IIRC, black tip indicated steel-core armor piercing. Red tip indicated tracers.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at July 01, 2012 06:58 PM (M0NzJ)

Tracers have orange tips. Back in those days I have no clue about the black. It could have been anything from some sort of marking to a lubricant. Back then there were endless attempts to reduce bore fouling.

Posted by: Admits he knows little more than squat at July 01, 2012 03:14 PM (7+pP9)

107 I have a Garand. Best battle rifle ever built. It can be fired reliably from any position. The M-14 is great but I always found the magazine to be in the way at times.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:14 PM (BAnPT)

108 I've never quite heard a Garand described that way. I didn't mean that to sound like I'm throwing off on Garands. I just think they're cute compared to their brothers.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 03:14 PM (IoNBC)

109 116 They're art work

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:16 PM (BAnPT)

110

Did you ever just feel like grabbing a politition and slapping the stupid out of them.

Cannibal menu:

American.............$50 per serving

Frenchman...........$150 per serving

Politician..............$750 per serving

Customer: Why is a plate of politician so expensive?

Kamunga:  Did you ever try to clean one?

Posted by: Ohio Dan at July 01, 2012 03:16 PM (JKNDp)

111 @ 115 Apparently you never were taught to fire a Mauser  or Springfield from the hip

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 03:17 PM (4SwJN)

112 The CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) is not and never has been limited to veterans, but I think you may be required to belong to some kind of shooting club that holds competitions to be eligible for their Garand purchase program. I'm pretty sure they also have some other weapons besides the Garand available for purchase, but no M-14s, unfortunately.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 03:18 PM (iYwUw)

113 CMP in the early years OK now not so much

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 03:20 PM (4SwJN)

114 Pretty sure Mauser sued Springfield over their bolt design. Because they stole it. I shot a Garand in a DCM shoot at 300 yards with reduced targets. It was a humbling experience. But I made the cut!

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 03:22 PM (vWZa0)

115 If I had the money to buy an "assault rifle," I'd buy a Ruger Mini 14. Right now. Just sayin.'

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 03:22 PM (IoNBC)

116 119 I grew up on a gun range and customization shop my Dad owned. I've been shooting since I was four. That's where I learned to be a machinist too.
So I have indeed, learned to fire a Mauser from the hip with extreme discretion. I shot Skeet from the hip too. I took a buck at 400+ yards with a K98 that had peep sights when I was twelve.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:24 PM (BAnPT)

117

The CMP also has M-1 Carbines and 1917 Enfields available.

 

Go to odcmp. com (without the space) for more info if you're interested.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 03:26 PM (iYwUw)

118 The M1 Principles of Operation 1943 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJJeBXZeVZU As intricate as a watch.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 03:26 PM (QupBk)

119
I worked with an Air Force EOD team Cleaning up Eaker AFB. The techs found lots of stuff they didn't recognize. One thing they never figured out were .50 cal rounds with a gray tip above a black nose band.

They used a Leatherman to cut the tips off of some and found a gray powder in them. The powder wouldn't ignite with a match so they chalked it up to WTF?

I'm 99% sure it was supposed to make a flash when it hit a hard target.

Posted by: Archaeolical Consultant at July 01, 2012 03:26 PM (7+pP9)

120 Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at July 01, 2012 06:58 PM (M0NzJ I thought only military or police had stuff like that. I could have killed somebody that day. Sometimes "Lessoned Learned" rides you for life. Not in a don't touch a hot stove kind of way. But feeling guilty for what could have happened kind of way that is always there.

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 03:28 PM (MG6Y6)

121 42 WALLACE: “This is a tax increase on the middle class of $27 billion over the next ten years.”

---------

The best bit was right up front. The first words out of Lew's mouth were, essentially, "it's time for y'all to STFU about health care."

Posted by: Anachronda at July 01, 2012 03:28 PM (1c58W)

122 Tracers have orange tips. Back in those days I have no clue about the black. It could have been anything from some sort of marking to a lubricant. Back then there were endless attempts to reduce bore fouling. The .30--06 M1 series tracers had a red tip. When the M2 series was first developed it used a white tip for tracer, then later it was switched to a red tip. The black tip ammo is armor piercing, it's the M2 Series.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 03:29 PM (R5yLq)

123 I too covet the M14. I have been told by my buddy who was in the nam pre M16 that the 14 is damn near unpossible to control in full auto. But still......

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 03:30 PM (vWZa0)

124
I took a buck at 400+ yards with a K98 that had peep sights when I was twelve.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 07:24 PM (BAnPT)

Old joke:

Why did the Japanese lose WWII?

They had slanty eyes and peep sights.

Posted by: I Denounce Myself at July 01, 2012 03:30 PM (7+pP9)

125 Those .50 cal rounds were API (Armor Piercing Incindiary). The white powder was a magnesium compound intended to ignite fuel, etc. A match probably wouldn't be hot enough to ignite it, but the energy converted to heat when the round impacted something hard would.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 03:31 PM (iYwUw)

126

Greetings from the Arizona Stronghold of my Apache Brothers.

 

A well known Arizona cowboy, judge, politician and all around bon vivant, Bucky O'neill lost his life at Kettle Hill that day.

 

A bronze of Bucky, placed in 1907, on the Courthouse Plaza of Prescott, AZ still stands today.

 

The VFW Post #541 in Prescott is named in his honor.

Posted by: solitary knight at July 01, 2012 03:31 PM (8o68/)

127 Those .50 cal rounds were API (Armor Piercing Incendiary When you care enough to send the very best. Excuse me, welling up a bit here.. lol

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 03:33 PM (R5yLq)

128 @  131

   Your buddy spoke truth.  Muzzle climb on auto is awesome. They don't make a very good AA weapon.

  On a bipod, they perform ok, but the cyclic rate runs you out of ammo in a hurry.  Best to stay semi-auto.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 01, 2012 03:37 PM (SAMxH)

129 Mauser was paid liscensing fees by the US Government,it wasn't "stolen".

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:37 PM (Xb3hu)

130 Yes, you need to belong to a civilian shooting club.  I think veterans don't need to belong to a club.  Best check the CMP website: odcmp.com

M14s are not available through CMP because they have full auto capability.  Clinton administration was destroying them in the 90s until Congress stopped them.

I own an M1903-A3 and a Springfield M1A, civilian semi-auto only version of M14.  I guess for completeness' sake I should get a Garand.

Posted by: butch at July 01, 2012 03:38 PM (nK2Sx)

131 #64  The 1936 heat wave was the worst in recorded history for North America.  It lasted from June until September.  Over 5,000 people died.  Temperatures records were set which have yet to be broken, including 128 in Rapid City, South Dakota.

My dad often talked about this,  because he was a lifeguard in Indiana at the time.  The pool he worked at trucked in ice from ice houses and floated blocks in the pool because otherwise the water was too hot for people to swim in comfortably.

So I am not believing the global warming stuff about this heat wave.  It is caused by weather, something our current pseudo-scientists do not seem to understand.

Posted by: Miss Marple at July 01, 2012 03:38 PM (GoIUi)

132 They have better rounds than API for the Ma Deuce now.HE/I.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:39 PM (Xb3hu)

133 They blew up the shark in Jaws with an M-1Garand. I rest my case

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:39 PM (BAnPT)

134 I'd like to see a Moose in the wild.

Posted by: DaveA at July 01, 2012 03:39 PM (864A5)

135
The .30--06 M1 series tracers had a red tip. When the M2 series was first developed it used a white tip for tracer, then later it was switched to a red tip.

The black tip ammo is armor piercing, it's the M2 Series.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 07:29 PM (R5yLq)

I bow to your knowledge. All I know is that for a fleeting moment we had a belt of M-60 tracers in the 1960s and they had orange tips. My oldest brother found some way to "liberate" them from the Army and ASAP as my Army father saw them they disappeared.

Posted by: Army Brat at July 01, 2012 03:40 PM (7+pP9)

136 141 Yeah,they blew up an scuba tank,which doesn't happen.Peter Benchley told Speilsberg it was a stupid ending but Speilsberg told him the audience would love it.He was right Benchley was wrong.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:41 PM (Xb3hu)

137 Oregon Muse said in detail what I was going to say in brief: Teddy R may have been a "don't F*** with me, I'm an American" but he was also our first "Progressive" president.

Posted by: mallfly at July 01, 2012 03:42 PM (NI3M5)

138 and a note to 22 "Social Studies Graduate Student": everyone knows you're just a rightie being silly. I've been called very bad names for saying that kind of stuff. Learn to do it correctly if you want to piss people off here. Say things like "Chief Justice Roberts clearly presented the case to uphold the ACA and should be thanked" and sign your name as Greg, and watch the fireworks.

Posted by: mallfly at July 01, 2012 03:46 PM (NI3M5)

139 144 Which proves that it was the 165 grain ball ammo.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:47 PM (BAnPT)

140 @54
The <STRIKE>Obamanites </STRIKE> Romneybots are utterly tone-deaf when it comes to politics.

FTFY

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:47 PM (zsgo8)

141 141 They blew up the shark in Jaws with an M-1Garand. I rest my case Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 07:39 PM (BAnPT) Ha! That's why I come here. But what did Roy's character say before he took the last shot at DWS again?

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 03:48 PM (MG6Y6)

142 And then there’s Japan: Mao Sugiyama, 22, had his penis and testicles surgically removed and frozen in March. A month later the “asexual” illustrator defrosted his tackle and cooked it up in public – serving the delicacy to customers at £160 (20,000 yen) a time. Police in Tokyo were not involved in the incident at the time because it was not thought any crime had been committed.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:48 PM (Xb3hu)

143 The only thing unusual about this heat wave is that it is a few weeks early.  Usually the " OMG, just hook me up to an IV of ice water" weather hits the week after Independence Day.  Agree about the summer of 1936.  The ten highest record temps in St. Louis were all from 1934, 1936, and 1954, except for Jun. 28, 2012.  They were also all recorded in July and August. 

Posted by: Ruby at July 01, 2012 03:49 PM (QAUe4)

144 148 Surprise surprise. The Blog is broken.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:49 PM (BAnPT)

145 maybe Obamacare includes a preview button...

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:49 PM (zsgo8)

146 You need to use the [  ] brackets not the <  > ones

Posted by: buzzion at July 01, 2012 03:50 PM (GULKT)

147
But what did Roy's character say before he took the last shot at DWS again?

Didn't he say "Fire you son of a b...!"

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:51 PM (BAnPT)

148 Now is the time we juxtapose, Small Dead Animals-style: New York Times Asks: Should Air-Conditioning ‘Be Rationed Away?’ – Headline, Newsbusters, June 25, 2012. “In full view of bemused tourists and other passers-by, workers yesterday performed what looked like a comedy routine: They hoisted a standard room air conditioner to a side window of one of [Mayor Bloomberg’s] SUVs parked in the City Hall lot to see if it would fit.” – The New York Post, June 27th: “Mayor rigs wacky A/C to keep his SUV chilled,” found via Doug Powers of Michelle Malkin.com.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:52 PM (Xb3hu)

149 okay . epic fail and snark reboot.

The Obamanites Romneybots are utterly tone-deaf when it comes to politics.

FTFY


Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:52 PM (zsgo8)

150 Smile you son of a bitch!

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 03:53 PM (Xb3hu)

151 screw it.


Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:53 PM (zsgo8)

152 like this with an s

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:53 PM (BAnPT)

153

And I think its just for strikethrough  S for strikethrough not Strike.

Posted by: buzzion at July 01, 2012 03:53 PM (GULKT)

154 158 I guess he did! Ha

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:54 PM (BAnPT)

155 screw it. Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 07:53 PM (zsgo

Hah! True conservative™ fucks it up.

Way to show, us!

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at July 01, 2012 03:55 PM (famk3)

156 Hard for me to remember what he said because we only got the film on AM radio back then.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:55 PM (BAnPT)

157   test

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:56 PM (zsgo8)

158 i  b  u  s

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 03:58 PM (BAnPT)

159 yay me.

thanks , buzz

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:58 PM (zsgo8)

160 and Beto

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 03:58 PM (zsgo8)

161 and a note to 22 "Social Studies Graduate Student": everyone knows you're just a rightie being silly. I've been called very bad names for saying that kind of stuff. Learn to do it correctly if you want to piss people off here. Say things like "Chief Justice Roberts clearly presented the case to uphold the ACA and should be thanked" and sign your name as Greg, and watch the fireworks. Posted by: mallfly at July 01, 2012 07:46 PM (NI3M5) I prefer obvious parody. It helps point out how the left really thinks. The sad thing is, that there are plenty of idiots that do think like that. Most other lefties believe it too, but have more "sophisticated" ways of putting it.

Posted by: Sockmaster for "Social Studies Graduate Student" at July 01, 2012 03:59 PM (XYqoq)

162

Roy's character took a shot at "Dancing With the Stars"?

 

I did not know that.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 03:59 PM (iYwUw)

163 139 Temperatures records were set which have yet to be broken, including 128 in Rapid City, South Dakota.

------

Perhaps. But you can't trust those raw, ungridded, unadjusted temperatures. It's only with the advent of modern computer technology, coupled with the awesome power of the science of statistics, that we can discover what the temperature *actually* was.

Posted by: Anachronda at July 01, 2012 04:00 PM (1c58W)

164 weft cut loop .

yes . I failed at HTML.

your lefty Mormon Bush II automaton fails at conservatism .

so enjoy...

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:01 PM (zsgo8)

165
170
He was making the analogy of the Shark with Debbie Wassermann Schultz B.B.C S.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 04:01 PM (BAnPT)

166 164 Hard for me to remember what he said because we only got the film on AM radio back then. Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 07:55 PM (BAnPT) Steevy nailed it. Thanks for the info. And BTW Obama is a Stuttering Clusterf•ck of a Miseable Failure. Or Tyrannt. If your name begins with an A.

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 04:02 PM (MG6Y6)

167 yes . I failed
Posted by: reality check

You can stop right there, spaz.

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at July 01, 2012 04:03 PM (famk3)

168 oh and WCL?


Romneycare.

suckit. suck it deep.

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:03 PM (zsgo8)

169 spaz?

Will RomneyBAMACare pay for my condition?

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:04 PM (zsgo8)

170 Will RomneyBAMACare pay for my condition?Posted by: reality check

The treatment for your condition is to grow the fuck up, child.

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at July 01, 2012 04:06 PM (famk3)

171

Re: The Japanese "artist" that cooked up his own junk, which others paid money to eat, I think we maybe dropped one too many atomic bombs on those people.

 

Or not enough, I'm not sure which.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 04:07 PM (iYwUw)

172 You call me a spaz , then tell me to grow the fuck up.


huh. 

Not quite a weft cut.


Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:09 PM (zsgo8)

173 Appropos of nothing, I like the pragmatist guy. If you're going to deny reality, do it straight up. Nomitbama!

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 04:12 PM (QupBk)

174 HOLY SHITE  BATMAN i WENT TO THE POOL FOR A DIP AND RETURNED TO FIND THE SUBJECT MATTER TURNED PINK?

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 04:12 PM (4SwJN)

175 CJ Roberts and I agree on one thing.....


HEALTHCARE!


Donate today!





Posted by: Willard "My Turn" Romney at July 01, 2012 04:13 PM (zsgo8)

176 Every post, no matter how noble a subject, descends into hell after 150 minutes.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 04:14 PM (BAnPT)

177  ! 184 Thanks for the 2 minute warning

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 04:15 PM (4SwJN)

178 It always does, Clemenza, it always does.  It seems folks in here just want to fight today.  Pissed off I guess, so it's , "Hm, who can I hammer on this thread?"

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:15 PM (7g1yh)

179 I bow to your knowledge. All I know is that for a fleeting moment we had a belt of M-60 tracers in the 1960s and they had orange tips. Slightly different ammunition. Most likely what you were firing was the M62 7.62x51mm NATO. It has an orange tip.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 04:17 PM (R5yLq)

180 What the heck? I am old in my ways. What y'all got there is a young'in.

Posted by: Riding Back From The Desert On A Sock Named Liberty Bringing Hell With Him at July 01, 2012 04:17 PM (MG6Y6)

181
There once was a post from Nantucket
Of hero's feats but I said fuck it
I hammered a tard
And hammered him hard
And touche' I told him to suck it

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 04:20 PM (BAnPT)

182 not denying reality....just hating it.

descending into hell with my doorbell ringing off the hook with Mitt standing there in a goofy bike helmet and a nametag

O is there with a bike helmet but it's in his picture on the trillion dollar bill 

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:20 PM (zsgo8)

183 The M-98 was so good that the U.S., after having been roughed-up by the Mauser equipped Spanish in Cuba when our Krag-Jorgensen service rifles were found wanting due to the inability of our troops to rapidly reload them (due to not having a stripper clip feed system), decided to build their own “98” style service rifle. Our resulting 1903 Springfield was so similar that Mauser sued the U.S. government over patent infringements and the U.S. ended up paying a royalty to Mauser for each rifle produced until our entry into the war in April 1917. Not to pick nits.

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 04:21 PM (vWZa0)

184 187 Agreed. 7.62 NATO Tracer is Orange. 5.56 is Red.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 04:22 PM (BAnPT)

185 LOL!  Bravo, Beto, Bravo!

How's the wife and family holding up?

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:22 PM (7g1yh)

186 Itallics fail

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 04:22 PM (vWZa0)

187 193 We're OK and thanks to ask. Very frustrated that we live so far away and air travel is major league flubbed up because of July 4

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 04:24 PM (BAnPT)

188 So when I monitored the cleanup of the Eaker AFB EOD range (for human remains), thousands of B-52 starter cartridges were unearthed. According to the EOD techs, each one was chock full of asbestos.

Is there a possible lawsuit over this if I develop some kind of legit pulmonary disease?

Posted by: USAF BRAC Cleanup Monitor at July 01, 2012 04:26 PM (7+pP9)

189 I can imagine, Beto.  It is so infuriating.  Happened when my x-morther in law passed away just before Thanksgiving. 

You are in my thoughts.

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:26 PM (7g1yh)

190

Everything Gives You Cancer

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7veyjty

Posted by: Joe Jackson at July 01, 2012 04:28 PM (8Slyg)

191 Supper bell, time to go for a while. Thanks pint.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 04:33 PM (BAnPT)

192

There once was a post about heroes

Hijacked by Mitt-worshipping zeroes

They go to the mat

Despite evidence that

Their robots' views match Barack Nero's

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:35 PM (zsgo8)

193 MY favorite weapon is a CAN gun, Iron  Grandpa knows what I mean

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 04:38 PM (4SwJN)

194 So...who would YOU have us vote for, reality check?  And why?

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:38 PM (7g1yh)

195 I'm hoping that by Monday everyone will have the hot rage and eeyorism out of their systems. There has been a distinct lack of teh funney since the premiere of Affordable Care II: The Backstabbening.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 04:39 PM (QupBk)

196 @ 204 you want funny. I will dive you funny just ask...

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 04:41 PM (4SwJN)

197 I agree toby928.  We all have work to do.

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:41 PM (7g1yh)

198 phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range

Posted by: Dr. Varno at July 01, 2012 04:41 PM (nOAVk)

199
>>Slightly different ammunition. Most likely what you were firing was the M62 7.62x51mm NATO. It has an orange tip.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 08:17 PM (R5yLq)

---------

>192 187 Agreed. 7.62 NATO Tracer is Orange. 5.56 is Red.

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 08:22 PM (BAnPT)

Now you two have me totally confuzilated. All I remember is that it was an M-60 band and every bullet had an orange tip. I kinda thought the tracers (every fourth round?) in a band might have been marked as a tracer. I never got to find out what was what because as soon as my dad saw them they vanished. Never got to even build a mousetrap rig to fire one.

Posted by: Army Brat at July 01, 2012 04:42 PM (7+pP9)

200 Bring on the funny, Clemenza, just make sure it's dayumed funny, ok?  LOL.

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:42 PM (7g1yh)

201 I'm trying to decide whether to watch a bootleg Prometheus XVID download, or Chronicle. Is Hunger Games out on video yet?

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 04:43 PM (QupBk)

202 @ 208 pool beers aside here it comes...

Posted by: Clemenza at July 01, 2012 04:44 PM (4SwJN)

203 Yayyyyyyyyyy!  The funny commences!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:45 PM (7g1yh)

204 The M-98 was so good that the U.S., after having been roughed-up by the Mauser equipped Spanish in Cuba when our Krag-Jorgensen service rifles were found wanting due to the inability of our troops to rapidly reload them (due to not having a stripper clip feed system), decided to build their own “98” style service rifle. Our resulting 1903 Springfield was so similar that Mauser sued the U.S. government over patent infringements and the U.S. ended up paying a royalty to Mauser for each rifle produced until our entry into the war in April 1917.
Not to pick nits.

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 08:21 PM (vWZa0)

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

 

Everyone just raves over the Mauser.  But,  come on, folks.  Unless  the rifle  design comes from Japan or France,  how can anyone fuck  up  a bolt-action rifle?

Posted by: Soona at July 01, 2012 04:46 PM (B2OTU)

205 Ah, I forgot bootleg Avengers. I'll watch that, so I don't have to keep avoiding spoilers. I dug a 300lb rock from deep out my garden today and I'm in the mood to veg out.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 04:46 PM (QupBk)

206 Army Brat,
If EVERY round had an orange tip, it was probably put together by hand. Normally, IIRC, every 5th round was a tracer. I just looked at a belt out in the garage (It followed me home, I swear!).

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 04:47 PM (626PS)

207 The story of the "US Rifle, .30 caliber, M1903", otherwise known as a Springfield M1903, began late in XIX century, when US troops, engaged in the Spanish - American war found their bolt-action, .30 caliber Krags and .45 caliber single-shot Springfield "trap-doors" far inferior to the bolt-action Mausers, used by Mexican troops. It was soon discovered that more powerful and fast-firing rifle is required. The Krag rifles were too weak for ammunition desired by US Army authorities, and lacked some vital features, such as clip-loading, so in 1900 the state-owned Springfield armory was set up to build a new rifle, based on the battle-proven Mauser design. Springfield entered into negotiations with Mauser company and finally acquired the rights for Mauser bolt action for amount of US $200 000. At the same time, new ammunition was designed for the new rifle.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 04:48 PM (Xb3hu)

208

A limerick flame war.

 

You're not gonna see that on just any blog.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 04:48 PM (iYwUw)

209 LOL , Chris P @214.  Of course it did.

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:48 PM (7g1yh)

210 215 I know he say's "Mexican troops" in error,the guy who runs the site is Russian and English is not his first language.

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 04:49 PM (Xb3hu)

211 who we vote for is no longer an option.

I'm just fed up with people Mitt-ing on my leg and telling me it's raining conservatism.

 I have watched  freedoms that I believed in and have fought for be sold for thirty silver pieces and a handjob by nominally American leaders . I'm pretty much worthless as a human being at this point.

Ignore me.
 

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:49 PM (zsgo8)

212 Now you two have me totally confuzilated. All I remember is that it was an M-60 band and every bullet had an orange tip. I kinda thought the tracers (every fourth round?) in a band might have been marked as a tracer. I never got to find out what was what because as soon as my dad saw them they vanished. Never got to even build a mousetrap rig to fire one. Ammo usually has it's own designations in Military parlance. You would think that ammo designed for an M-60 would be designated M60. But remember that 7.62 MM is used by more than just the M-60. It's that way with a lot of ammunition. So the 7.62 MM ammo that you were using for the M60 carries it's own designation, in this case the ammo is called M62. It has an orange tip and it is a tracer round.

Posted by: StuckOnStupid at July 01, 2012 04:50 PM (R5yLq)

213 pint,
I couldn't figure out how to get 'The Pig' home with it, but I would not be able to afford to feed it, anyway.

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 04:51 PM (626PS)

214 216 A limerick flame war.

You're not gonna see that on just any blog.

Posted by: gebrauchshund at July 01, 2012 08:48 PM (iYwUw)



We need Arianne here.  She would give 'em a good go 'round countering with her Berma Shave dittys!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:51 PM (7g1yh)

215
I apologize for douchiness. This website staves off the insanity for me.

Best antidepressant there is. Morons rawk!

Posted by: reality check at July 01, 2012 04:52 PM (zsgo8)

216 "Pig" only had one leg did it?  lol.

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:53 PM (7g1yh)

217 Thanks to all for your tracer info.

My dad said when he flew night missions the VC tracers looked like green golf balls trying to get him.

Posted by: Army Brat at July 01, 2012 04:57 PM (7+pP9)

218 I once heard a young woman druid, Tell her priest it was rather too fluid, When he looked her askance, And she noticed his glance, Said "The pudding you fool, don't be stupid."

Posted by: Dr. Varno at July 01, 2012 04:57 PM (nOAVk)

219 Army Brat @ 207: The M60 was chambered in NATO 7.62x51.

Posted by: butch at July 01, 2012 04:57 PM (nK2Sx)

220 Douchiness happens to everyone once in awhile, reality check.  Just try to keep in control, and try not to be the douch around the morons when they are only hoping for the best too.  Except for the trolls and the mobys, we are all pretty much in the same frigging boat, ya know?

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:58 PM (7g1yh)

221 LOL! Dr. Varno @226

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 04:59 PM (7g1yh)

222 He also said he could read a letter from home from the illumination of the gunfire when he was on a ship off of Okinawa.

Posted by: Army Brat at July 01, 2012 05:00 PM (7+pP9)

223 I was visiting my friend Bobby, Bobby Roper, he's got a fahmm up near Bangor, and I see that his pig had a wooden leg and I says Bobby, why does your pig have a wooden leg? Bobby, he says to me That pig, let me tell you about that pig, that's a helluva damn fine pig ...

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 05:01 PM (QupBk)

224 lol, toby.  You caught that!  Good on ya!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:03 PM (7g1yh)

225 Bobby says, Last winter, the house caught fire and me and the missus were certain to burnt alive, but the pig, he saw that, he jumped out of his stall, ran to the house, climbed on the wood pile and knocked his head against the bedroom window and raised such a racket that we woke up and escaped. That's a helluva damn fine pig. I wait a second and then have to ask, Bobby, but why does you pig have a wooden leg? Bobby says, That pig, let me tell you about that pig, that's a helluva damn fine pig ...

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 05:04 PM (QupBk)

226 ...sold for thirty silver pieces and a handjob...

The silver was fake, its really aluminum, and that hand job will be performed by Helen Thomas.

enjoy.


Posted by: Purp (@PurpAv) at July 01, 2012 05:06 PM (7f1iu)

227 Bobby says, Last spring, I was plowing the hill 40 and the John Deere turned over and pinned me to the ground. I thought I was a goner for sure, but that pig, that pig, he say that, he jumped out of his pen, ran to me, rooted around and got my leg loose from under the tractor, saved my life he dig, helluva damn fine pig. I wait a second and then have to ask, Bobby, but why does you pig have a wooden leg? And Bobby says, That pig, he's a helluva damn fine pig, so we can't eat him all at once you know.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 05:07 PM (QupBk)

228 Makes me giggle every time, toby.

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:08 PM (7g1yh)

229 I damn deleted my bootleg of Avengers. Dammit. I don't remember doing that. Oh well, Chronicle it is then.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 05:09 PM (QupBk)

230 Makes me giggle every time, toby. I always laugh. I think there's about 4 that pig stories that Bobby tells but I can't remember anything but those two.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 05:10 PM (QupBk)

231 Yes, as I remember, there is one more, and that's why I asked, " It was a one legged pig, right?"

long joke but funny.  And thank you for bring the funny.

I thought Clemenza was gearing up for it, but you brought home the bacon!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:12 PM (7g1yh)

232 I hung out with a New Englander about 30 years ago and he had a bunch of jokes about Bobby, Bobby Roper and his fahmm up near Bangor.

Posted by: toby928© at July 01, 2012 05:14 PM (QupBk)

233 "The New Nationalism puts the national need before sectional or personal advantage. It is impatient of the utter confusion that results from local legislatures attempting to treat national issues as local issues. It is still more impatient of the impotence which springs from overdivision of governmental powers, the impotence which makes it possible for local selfishness or for legal cunning, hired by wealthy special interests, to bring national activities to a deadlock."

--Stuff Teddy Roosevelt Actually Said

Posted by: OregonMuse at July 01, 2012 05:15 PM (BN3s8)

234 Sure, pint, we're talking about the M-60 and you Ham it up...

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 05:15 PM (626PS)

235 he Krag-Jorgensen was to rifles as John Roberts is to Supreme Court Justices.

Which is to say: A piece of shit.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 05:42 PM (IoNBC)

That's not a piece of shit.


This == http://tinyurl.com/5e5ce3 (wiki) is a piece of shit.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and all that at July 01, 2012 05:16 PM (CP+yl)

236 There is several of the long jokes out there.  One about a purple polka dotted ping pong table, and that is especially funny about a man getting a vasectomy and keeps having kids, and can't figure out why. 

My dad used to tell them in his best Svedish accent!  He was a hoot!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:16 PM (7g1yh)

237 No surprise that the Marines, who always emphasized marksmanship, would be particularly enamored of it. A 700-yard range is not to be sniffed at.

Posted by: Scobface at July 01, 2012 06:10 PM (IoNBC)


yeah until a million fucking chinese came running over the hill. Then, then they said hmmm time for some spray and pray.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and all that at July 01, 2012 05:17 PM (CP+yl)

238 That's my favorite pig joke toby.

A Guy dressed like  Pirate walks into a bar
The bartender asks him if he's a Pirate,
"Aye. I be a Pirate." he says
So the Bartender asks him why he has a peg leg
"Lost it in a cannon fight on the Spanish Main." he says
So the Bartender asks him why he has a hook on his right arm
"Lost it in a cannon fight on the Spanish Main." he says
So the Bartender says "I guess you wear an eye-patch from the same fight."
"No. A Seagull shit in me eye." he says
"Seagull shit can put your eye out !?!" he exclaims
" Argh, no. You see...I'd only 'ad me 'ook for a week..."

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 05:18 PM (BAnPT)

239 242 Sure, pint, we're talking about the M-60 and you Ham it up...

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 09:15 PM (626PS)



*hangs head in shame and giggles my ass off*
you punner you!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:19 PM (7g1yh)

240 Spacing is everything:

http://tinyurl.com/7qmacop


Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 05:19 PM (626PS)

241 LOL! @Beto

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:22 PM (7g1yh)

242 Keep us Gawja morons in your prayers.  Heavy wind, hail and rain heading here.  A couple of minutes ago, a huge gust hit us and knocked over an old vase full of weights on the screened porch, shattering it.  It's been out there for eleven years.

Now lightning, higher winds are hitting.

Ugh.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 01, 2012 05:22 PM (UOM48)

243 Spacing?  I wonder if Pixy knows about that?

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:23 PM (7g1yh)

244 Sorry, wrong thread.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 01, 2012 05:23 PM (UOM48)

245 Godspeed Jane

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 05:24 PM (BAnPT)

246 Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 01, 2012 09:22 PM (UOM4

Jane, you got it gal!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:24 PM (7g1yh)

247 Pixy has no freakin' clue about spacing, nor ampersands.
And, always remember, "Tracers work both ways!"

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 05:24 PM (626PS)

248 The Carolinas and GA are gettin' the shit tonight!
This does not look like fun!
http://tinyurl.com/7mjal78

Link goes to Accuweather.

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 05:28 PM (626PS)

249 Good luck to our peach-state morons

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at July 01, 2012 05:28 PM (QTHTd)

250 House Speaker John Boehner said today that Republicans are preparing to file a civil suit in an attempt to gain access to more information pertaining to the Justice Department’s botched Fast & Furious drug cartel gun tracking program. The planned civil suit, which comes on the heels of a letter sent by the Justice Department stating that the DOJ would not prosecute Attorney General Eric Holder following a House vote to hold him in criminal contempt of Congress. “It’s not clear to me that the U.S. District Attorney will in fact, go down that path. That’s why we’re going to file, in District Court, a civil suit, over the issue of executive privilege,” Boehner said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” The Obama administration, in response to a request by Holder, asserted the right to executive privilege several weeks ago, in effect blocking Congressional access to documents pertaining the affair. . . . “The American people have a right to know what happened,” Boehner said today. “Brian Terry’s family has a right to know what happened here.”

Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 05:29 PM (Xb3hu)

251 Hurricane Sherman ? (do they name derechoi?)

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at July 01, 2012 05:29 PM (QTHTd)

252 "Chronicle" is an excellent movie.

Posted by: Boulder Toilet Hobo at July 01, 2012 05:30 PM (QTHTd)

253 And now, I am off to the arms of whatever god the god of sleep is. (Morpheus?)  I had a full day of riding the Harley and kickin' the sun and the winds ass.  That sure works wonders for any boo-hiss that creeps into my soul.

Thank you one and all, morons.  You always make my days much brighter.

Take good care, and as Adrienne says, " A better tomorrow!."

Dream sweet!

Posted by: pint at July 01, 2012 05:31 PM (7g1yh)

254 Oh shit, here it comes.  I'm going to be signing off shortly.

We're surrounded by dozens of 100' pine trees.  We're also in a ranch style home (the upstairs portion is our son's room and bath over the garage).  If a tree comes through the roof, we're doomed.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 01, 2012 05:38 PM (UOM48)

255 Here comes the hail and high winds.

Gah.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 01, 2012 05:39 PM (UOM48)

256 A month later the “asexual” illustrator defrosted his tackle and cooked it up in public – serving the delicacy to customers at £160 (20,000 yen) a time. Posted by: steevy at July 01, 2012 07:48 PM (Xb3hu) D*ckheads, D*ckheads Roly, poly d*ckheads D*ckheads, D*ckheads Eat them up, yum!! (2 note piano chord here)

Posted by: BillH at July 01, 2012 05:41 PM (3sZO1)

257 Night Pint

Posted by: Beto at July 01, 2012 05:42 PM (BAnPT)

258

My 03 Springfield (mfg. 1929) has a magazine cut-off switch that prevents rounds in the magazine from feeding into the chamber when the bolt is cycled.

Its purpose is to turn the rifle into a single shot manual feed action.

Apparently someone thought soldiers might fire all their ammunition too fast with their new fangled multi-shot rifles.

Posted by: Frankly at July 01, 2012 05:43 PM (WsaIh)

259 That the Springfield was without question a Mauser clone was confirmed in a series of patent infringement lawsuits filed by Mauser. Mauser won and the court ordered the US Government to pay damages. This is where popular myth takes over. The myth says the US Government lost the case, appealed, lost again, but war intervened and only a small amount of the judgment, approximately $250,000, was actually paid to Mauser. The balance of the huge award was never paid and the Great War provided the US Government an easy out. Damn nits are stubborn tonight.

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 05:50 PM (vWZa0)

260 Later on, Pint.

Posted by: BillH at July 01, 2012 05:51 PM (3sZO1)

261 The truth is a much more fascinating story. It was thought most of the DWM and Mauser company records were lost forever during the Allied bombing of Germany during WWII. Not so the records of their attorney's--including the files of the US law firm handling the Mauser vs. the US suits here. Based on recent research by the firearms author, collector and historian, Jon Speed, this fascinating story is soon to be told. Jon's research of these long-lost records indicates the US paid huge sums of money in the form of both penalties and licensing fees, even up to and during the early years of WWI while the US remained neutral. The details of this fascinating story will be appear in Jon's upcoming two-volume work on the history of the Mauser firm. From Guns Magazine October 2006.

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 05:56 PM (vWZa0)

262 OK, the belts of straight tracer get put together at machine gun ranges by accident. It's supposed to be 4 rounds M80 ball, one round M62 tracer. The tracers are supposed to help you walk the rounds into the target on full-auto, though now that we have magnified optics on the M240B (the M60's replacement), that is not the preferred method anymore. Wastes ammo. Aimed bursts are the way to go, since nothing is as effective in suppressive fire as shooting some dirtbag in the face.

When the "burn index" (wind and "dryness") is too high for you to shoot tracers or HE in the impact areas on post (the way it is right now), we had to cull the tracers out of the belts and put the belts back together so we could still shoot qualification.

So when we rotated to the ammo shed after we'd shot, we'd string together belts of pure tracer. We'd put 'em in the can, have the guys from the battalion support platoon put 'em back in the unit ammo bunker, and we'd save them for night fire once it rained. Beat the shit out of trying to actually turn it in. The asshole civilians at the ammo point hate that shit.

As for the Krag- I have one. I named it Candice in honor of an ex-girlfriend who was a six one redhead ex-model. "Tall, graceful, and essentially useless." Don't get me wrong, a 200-grain .30 cal slug will ruin your day, but it doesn't have the ballistic efficiency of the .30'06 spitzers that came later. The single-lug bolt is actually the limitation to how hot you can load it. Still, almost as smooth a bolt action as my Enfields.

The weakness to shooting .30'06 in early '03 Springfields is NOT the ammo, since your odds of finding an unmodified M1903 still chambered in .30'03 is up there with winning PowerBall, it's the fact that many "low number" Springfields (same with the ones from Rock Island Arsenal) were incorrectly heat-treated and are known to blow the frak up.

Really, the '03/'03A1 are great rifles, I have one, but the '03A3 has a much more efficient rear sight on it if you're planning on trying to shoot anyone with it. The "battle sight" notch on the '03 is set for 547 yards per my 1922 edition of "USMC Rifle Marksmanship", and in general field conditions you have a hard time SEEING anyone at 547 yards unless you live in a desert. Around here (TN), 300 yards is the max between the hills and trees.

For long-range work with the AR15/M16A2/4/M4 carbine, stick to a quality 1:7 twist barrel and run 77 grain ammo, either Sierra MatchKings or Nosler BTHPs. SOCOM and the Marines call it the Mark 262, and it's not bad stuff. Groups well out to 600, further if you can dope wind well. Good durable optics are a must. I love my ACOG, but I do want a Leupold MR/T. There's a reason all the service rifle teams gave up on the M14- requires too much armorer tinkering and man-hours to keep the groups small enough. If you're just trying to keep it "minute of chest cavity" instead of "half minute of angle", it's easier. Love the '14, don't own one yet. It's the glaring hole in my collection. But if you doubt the AR can do "long" look up some of what 5th SFG did with the Mk12 Special Purpose Rifle since 9/11.

Posted by: SGT Dan's Cat at July 01, 2012 06:09 PM (4hwtR)

263

"Here's the question. The bullet part of the rounds were black. Why paint something like that?"

Some type of protective coating--or, if they were copper with a black tip--armor piercing. Commonly available years ago.

Posted by: laidup at July 01, 2012 06:16 PM (Es8uy)

264 The Krag wasn't so bad.  Atticus Finch used one to shoot the mad dog.  They had a very smooth action which is related to having only one locking lug.  That limited the power of the cartridge they could fire.  The .30-40 cartridge they used was roughly equivalent to the British .303 in power.  Apparently the Juramentados in the Philippines did not die quickly enough when shot with them, which led to the decision to adopt a more powerful cartridge.

The thing is that Norway used the Krag-Jorgensen rifle chambered for the same 6.5X55 mm cartridge that is used in the Swedish Mauser.  That is a remarkably accurate cartridge.  I wonder what committee insisted on the .30-40 cartridge?  Of course we don't know how effective the 6.5 mm cartridge would have been against Muslim fanatics since the Swedes and Norwegians never wound up at war with any when they were armed with those rifles.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at July 01, 2012 06:20 PM (P/coe)

265

"Groups well out to 600, further if you can dope wind well"

All I ever shot was 62 and 55 grain, but when shooting the same type rifle in  two calibers side to side (7.62 and 5.56) equipped with the same optic (ACOG) ; the hold over in a high gust was 11 inches for the 7.62, and almost two feet for the 5.56 @ 560 yards.

 

Posted by: laidup at July 01, 2012 06:33 PM (it3Bv)

266

This guy has written a pretty good study of the low number receiver failure issue:

 

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

Posted by: Frankly at July 01, 2012 06:49 PM (WsaIh)

267 M-14 was my favorite, ever. Qualified expert with it(in'67).
M-16, not so much. There was a reason we called it the "Poodle Shooter".
Light round, subject to deflections from wind, leaves, whatever.
Wife owns an AR-15(with a night-scope), as she is qualified and can strip/clean/maintain it.
I go with the Colt 1911A1 and the Remington 870-12 gauge.
It works for me.

Posted by: ChrisP at July 01, 2012 06:51 PM (626PS)

268 Yes the '93 Mauser is superior to the Krag--but not by a huge amount.  I think the difference between the obsolete US black powder cannon and the modern Spanish breach-loading artillery was much larger and more critical for the battle.

Posted by: Michael E. Stora, Ph.D. at July 01, 2012 06:53 PM (IpkXJ)

269 274, you're always going to be at a disadvantage in high gusts, but 77 grain match loads help. The service rifle teams would still be using M14s if there was a competitive advantage to it, and there's not.

Now if I have to shoot up a car at a checkpoint outside Baghdad and don't have a belt-fed something handy, I'll take an M14 for that. 7.62mm still punches holes in things better.

Posted by: SGT Dan's Cat at July 01, 2012 06:57 PM (4hwtR)

270 I could not help but notice that the Marines still keep a rack of M14s with big ass optics for knocking hadjis down. Not for sniping, but definately a reach out and revoke your privileges weapon. Saw them often in the faluja pictures.

Posted by: VWZao at July 01, 2012 07:08 PM (vWZa0)

271 1097 -- Battle of Dorylaeum, Also today.

Posted by: Montjoie at July 01, 2012 07:54 PM (sBpR/)

272 Funny how the upstart American Colonies have fought all the major European Powers except France, though there were undeclared limited naval combats with the French. England (Revolution, 1812) Spain (Spanish American War) Germany (WWI, WWII) Italy (WWII). We fought our southern neighbor Mexico, invaded Canada twice (Revolution, 1812), and even fought amongst ourselves. We're such trouble-makers, and the world is better for it!


Posted by: hadsil at July 02, 2012 08:16 AM (HYDTz)

273

"The Marines were skeptical. They loved the Springfield that much."

My grandfather was with fleet Marines and carried the Springfield over the M1.  He called the them "thumbreakers" as when happens when a guy hastily tries to feed a cartridge strip and the bolt slaps forward. 

Posted by: Buckeye Abroad at July 02, 2012 10:52 AM (f+TdG)

274 Teddy was a prog.

That's all there is to say.

Posted by: Blacksmith8✡ at July 03, 2012 02:32 AM (nlRaq)

275 I read that when the Army showed up on Guadalcanal the Marines would shadow the dogfaces to steal them. You need firepower to back off those Banzai attacks.

Posted by: big c at July 03, 2012 09:37 AM (CzJsd)

276

Nothing new.  Custer was screwed because the Indians had better rifles. It was after the Spanish-American War that the army finally relized smokeless powder was a big advantage.  In every war the United States fight, it starts behind the 8 ball.

 

Posted by: burt at July 03, 2012 12:58 PM (OzqQM)

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