1 Good movie!

2 Greatest US Naval battle victory ever.

3 Oh FIRST!

4 CNN projects: too close to call

5 I've read quite a bit about this. If you don't want to read all those books, the movie is actually quite good EXCEPT for Charlton Heston's subplot. The bit with his son and the Japanese wife and gaaaawd it distracts from the movie. But everything else is top notch. Very close to actual events. Even the opening title sequence, copied from 30 seconds over Tokyo, is perfect. Want to know the about the behind the scenes war? Hal Holbrook NAILS Cmmdr. Rochefort - who was in charge of the code breaking effort. And I never fail to get a chill down my spine during the attack of Torpedo 8. Powder River, baby!

6 It was close.

7 My Dad live thru Midway. He rarely spoke about it except when he was in his cups and with others who served.

8 Here's hoping Wisconsin means 'Midway' in Cherokee.

9 We got lucky, but we were due for some.

10 Amazing, that without a direct link to FDR (THE CiC), commanders in the field were able to plan, initiate, and execute massive operations and secure total victory.  If the WW II military commanders had had advanced communications and Microsoft Office, half of us would be speaking German, and the other half would be speaking Japanese.

11 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

12

Love the Admiral Halsey scene in the hospital w/ Robert Mitchum.

 

Cut down the tree so I can see my ships in the harbor.

13 It was a damned close-run thing. If a couple of decisions had gone the other way -- the Japanese commander not choosing to rearm the planes when he did, and McCluskey taking his squadron home instead of searching for the Japanese by guesswork -- we could be remembering this date as the battle that cemented Japanese control of the Pacific, setting the stage for a hard slog lasting until 1946 or 47.

14 The first rule of code breaking, is that we dont talk about code breaking.

15 The first rule of code breaking, is that we dont talk about code breaking.

Posted by: Jean at June 06, 2012 08:37 PM (pawS5)

Unless it gives King Putt a possible election edge!

16 9 "Here's hoping Wisconsin means 'Midway' in Cherokee"

I hope Wisconsin was V-E Day.

November 6, we drop the A-bombs.

17 I wonder when the Japanese first wondered whether that Pearl Harbor plan was a big-ass mistake.  Doolittle raid maybe?

18 the pacific war is nearly unsung these days. ive seen battle footage from news reporters entrenched with the marines. to use the word "harrowing" doesnt represent it well enough.

the marines are fucking SCARY in wartime,  and thats no shit.

19 > Forces. Also totally full of shit. No mention of the code breaker that made it happen, or the fact that our torpedoes did NOT work. Where is the flick about the guys who won the battle? The code breakers. Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual at June 06, 2012 uh, Much of the first half of the movie is about the code breakers. Maybe you saw an edited version. There's more code breakign in this movie than almost any other movie that's not a documentary about codebreaking! Ref the torpedoes. at the time of Midway, we didn't KNOW the torpedoes didn't work. The movie showed what we knew at the time, not now. Don't forget, there was at least 1 torpedo hit. A PBY nailed a transport the night before the main battle. But, in general, the torpedes were bad and the TBDs (the bombers) were obsolete. Ref the fighters - the buffalos were obsolete but they had them so they used them. It was back-to-the-wall time. The F4Fs did pretty well.

20

 

[sniff]  "No offense, Tom, but do you people ever bathe?"

 

"I dunno.  What day is it?"

21 Hrothgar, God placed powerpoint on this earth to keep the US from conquering the world.

22 No mention of the code breaker that made it happen,

What the fuck was I doing in the movie then?

23 What if Spruance had a Los Angeles class submarine?

24 All those Japanese ships on the ocean floor sure sent a powerful message to the Americans.

25 Yamamoto thought Pearl Harbor was a mistake before he attacked.

26 The exit polls showed that the Japanese won Midway

27 WWII?  Never heard of it.

28 Hrothgar, God placed powerpoint on this earth to keep the US from conquering the world.

Posted by: Jean at June 06, 2012 08:40 PM (pawS5)

For the same reason He gave whiskey to the Irish!

29 It doesn't make any sense. Admiral Yamamoto had everything going for him. Great flick. Full of stars and stars to be.

30 CNN projects: too close to call and an early winner.

31 If one should find themselves near Fredericksburg Texas, I highly recommend the Pacific War museum located there. Adm. Nimitz grew up there, and his museum morphed into the bigger war in the Pacific museum.

32

 

   ... main body ...

33 Actually, just about everything you think you know about the Battle of Midway is wrong. Check out the book "Shattered Sword," which, for the first time, is a book written about Midway from the Japanese side using (heretofore) unavailable materials from Japanese historians. They make the argument that the Japanese loss was not a "miracle" but was rather a mostly predictable outcome of Yamamoto's flouting of Japanese naval doctrine of massing forces. Instead, he divided his forces up piecemeal, sending some haring off to the Aleutians, and others left behind for mostly repairable damage.

I highly recommend the book to anyone who is really interested in the history of this battle.

34 biggest naval battle- leyte gulf.

worst warfare conditions in the pacific- americans and our little aussie friends slugging it out in close quarters with the japs.

water-logged trenches, dissentry, hand to hand combat with friggin swords, 20 year old kids screaming "LOLWTF PWNSAUCE" with air raids over head.

it wasnt john wayne and nice language at that time. that shit was bonkers.

35 What if Spruance had a Los Angeles class submarine?

One ancient Ethan Allen class (ex USS Jefferson) could have ended the war in 20 minutes.

36
Not a fan of the movie, especially the hyper-extensive use of stock footage (including much from Tora! Tora! Tora!, a far superior film). This results in much hilarity for warbird geeks, as characters take off in one type of craft, fly in a second, and land or crash in a third.

37 The F4Fs did pretty well.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 06, 2012 08:39 PM (ZsBKY)

The A6M was in most respects a better plane but Jimmy Thach & co were better/smarter pilots & used the F4F to the max that day.

38 >> the Japanese commander not choosing to rearm the planes when he did

That really fucked them.

39 I wonder when the Japanese first wondered whether that Pearl Harbor plan was a big-ass mistake. Doolittle raid maybe?Posted by: Cicero

Not a historian by any stretch, but I've thought they made the similar mistake that the Germans made in regards to Soviet dominated Eastern Europe. Had Hitler gone into EE and actually liberated them from the Soviets, he would have created a rolling Hun Horde that would have mowed over Russia and China.

Remember Japan's East Co-Prosperity Sphere propaganda? What if they had actually become an anti-european colonial liberation force? What if they actually had done what they had claimed to be doing?

Of course, they had occupied Korea since the 20's with brutal effect, but if I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd say that was their biggest mistake.

40 And "the old guy from Designing Women" was Hal Holbrook. If you're my age or better you probably remember him doing Mark Twain on Hal Holbrook Tonight. Classic.

41

Yamamoto knew Pearl Harbor was a mistake from as soon as he knew they did not destroy the dry docks and fuel tanks.

"I fear all we have done is awakwend a great giant and filled him with a terrible resolve"

Ironically it was Admiral Nagumo who elected to retire from the Pearl Harbor attack before the real work was done because he did'nt know where our carriers were at, and then compounded his errors at MIdway.

42 They make the argument that the Japanese loss was not a "miracle" but was rather a mostly predictable outcome of Yamamoto's flouting of Japanese naval doctrine of massing forces.

The Japanese fleet was massive.  Japanese pilots and planes were better and the Yorktown was already creaky from the Battle of the Coral Sea.  Midway was one of those moments when the coin stood on end for a bit, then decided to come up heads.  God bless those torpedo bomber crews for drawing off the fighter cover from the dive bombers.

43 This battle was also the very successful Thatch Weave which gave our fighters a chance against the better Zeros.

44 43
... This results in much hilarity for warbird geeks, as characters take off in one type of craft, fly in a second, and land or crash in a third.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at June 06, 2012 08:53 PM (celt+)

I thought that was just me that noticed all that.

45 Did somebody say Midway? Great day for the Navy, our Intelligence and for America. And for me when I saw the movie with my Dad when I was little.

46 Damn auto correct. Thach Weave.

47 Obama was the big winner in the Battle of Midway.

48 O douche ma couldn't be bothered to notice D-Day today, nor his haughty but not proud wife. I guess he doesn't want to remind people of men better than him.

49 Obama was the big winner in the Battle of Midway.

Midway sent a huge message to Chester Nimitz.

50 Last night, the Akagi sent a powerful message to the bottom of the Pacific.

51 "Yamamoto knew Pearl Harbor was a mistake from as soon as he knew they did not destroy the dry docks and fuel tanks.
"I fear all we have done is awakwend a great giant and filled him with a terrible resolve"

-----------------

That's from Tora! Tora! Tora! It was written by the screenwriter. Yamamoto never said it. Probably felt it, though.

52 Obama to commemorate The Battle of Midway by not mentioning it.

53 The Imperial Japanese Navy found out sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

54 the japanese were crushed at war's end.

barely any troop cohesion, their pilots were gone, fleet was decimated. but in all of that they were honorable in defeat.

japan is the cinderella story of WW2, their culture saw to that in an ironic way. its interesting to read about.

the europeans on the other hand, to paraphrase an american soldier from WW1 were..."terrible winners".

interesting.

55 John Ford (CDR, USNR) made an 18-minute propaganda film about it  -you can find it at YouTube.  It includes video of VT-8, pre-battle.  The Marine Major Roosevelt @ 16:15 - FDR's son.

56 I had thought the absence of American carriers in Pearl Harbor was the reason Yamamoto felt the attack failed.  Not drydocks and fuel bunkers.

57 >>>Did you know that every sailor in 1942 was a racist bigot homophobe misogynist?

See, I told you all.

58 Had Hitler gone into EE and actually liberated them from the Soviets, he would have created a rolling Hun Horde that would have mowed over Russia and China.

The Germans were epic tone deaf about that.  They were actually greeted as liberators initially, but squandered that good will instantly. 

Basic rule of war: don't burn bridges you don't need to burn.

59 @43 - Did you let it ruin Smokey and the Bandit when you saw the front end of BAN 1 get trashed and look like it came off the showroom floor in the next shot? I know, Midway didn't have Sally Fields.

60 O douche ma couldn't be bothered to notice D-Day today

He had one of his staffers send out a tweet while he went to fundraisers. Again. That was worse than no acknowledgement at all.

61 Thirty years ago I had a neighbor who seemed like just a cool old hippie. He was an architect in his sixties. I had an Bug Exterminating company and he asked me to spray his house. In his bedroom closet was a flight jacket from the Yorktown.
He was a retired fighter pilot.

62 "I had thought the absence of American carriers in Pearl Harbor was the reason Yamamoto felt the attack failed. Not drydocks and fuel bunkers."

--------------

Logistics is king, my friend. Where do carriers get repaired? What do they run on?

63 @ 8

Actually, the movie "Midway" did have a rather extensive section on the Codebreaker (including referencing the deception CINCPAC used to convince Washington they were right about the island being the true objective).

It also may not have noted the faulty torpedoes (the magnetic exploders were a debacle that plagued SubFleet for the 1st 2 years of the war as well). But it did mention the antiquated Torpedo bombers 2 squadrons possessed, and the faulty electric armers that essentially left the Yorktown's Dive Bombing Division shooting machine guns to distract them from the other (properly armed) squadrons.

So it didn't glamorize the battle to the exclusion of the technical problems the fleet suffered in the first year.

War & Remembrance's rendering of the battle was also quite well done (if not as elaborate). I thought it had a much more developed portrayal of Admiral Spruance's character and the choices he had to make in the battle.

64 Thunderboomers moving into the area.  Would be first rain in almost 2 months.

65 #62 Really! I got that line from one of my CPO's when I was in the Navyand I know that he was old enough to have served on one of the Essex Class carriers.

66 Check out the book "Shattered Sword," which, for the first time, is a book written about Midway from the Japanese side using (heretofore) unavailable materials from Japanese historians.

Posted by: David, infamous sockpuppet at June 06, 2012 08:52 PM (UtoLw)

IIRC US historians wrote the book, but I agree - great book.  Many new insights into the battle & it also did a good job of putting you there on the hanger decks of the Jap CVs as they were burning.

67 65

To be fair, we were the sole winners in the Pacific. In Europe, we had de Gaulle, Montegomery, and all the other glorymongers acting like they were the reason we beat the Germans.

Dealing with Congress in the 50s was a round of golf for Eisenhower compared to the politics he had to practice in Europe

68 the europeans on the other hand, to paraphrase an american soldier from WW1 were..."terrible winners".

You pretty much gotta go all the way back to the Roman Epire expansion period to find otherwise. 

69 Not to be a nitpicker but I don't believe the playing field was roughly level after this battle. In addition to losing four carriers, Japan lost their very best navy pilots... never again was their naval aviation was a threat. It was the turning point in the Pacific naval war, and the Japanese were always on the defensive afterwards. Thanks for noting this outstanding victory, and never forget the sacrifices of Torpedo Eight.

70 I just realized Rachel Maddow is Jon Stewart.

71 "The Germans were epic tone deaf about that."

--- makes sense. seeing as how they only had themselves to protect their culture from assimilation into rome. it bred xenophobic tendencies and nationalistic pride hellbent on independence. and it succeeded thru-out the barbarian era and into the modern age.

....they just got too damn heady about it and needed a good ass kicking.

72 "War [and] Remembrance's rendering of the battle was also quite well done"

---------------

Second that. Read it when I was twelve. The Midway part is all I remember.

73 To be fair, we were the sole winners in the Pacific.

The Aussies came out OK. 

74 "To be fair, we were the sole winners in the Pacific. In Europe, we had de Gaulle, Montegomery, and all the other glorymongers acting like they were the reason we beat the Germans."

--- read the german military archives, if you can find  a good translator.

they laugh at those guys. not to diminish those men's accomplishments but, when the enemy barely notices you it leaves a mark.

75

 

Logistics is king, my friend. Where do carriers get repaired? What do they run on?

 

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at June 06, 2012 09:06 PM (celt+)

 

Aren't drydocks and fuel bunkers more easily repaired/replaced than a carrier with crew, planes and trained pilots?

76 "The Aussies came out OK."

---gotta love the aussies. they always had our back, always.

i love reading about the diggers in WW1, they were hilarious,....and saved the british/french alot of headaches.

77 Closest anybody's found to Yamamoto saying the "terrible resolve" line is, "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."

78

Not exactly related to the post, but my Mom wrenched props onto Liberator bombers back in the day. Got a shit load of pics of here 'rassling with that old warbird. I get chills from seeing a surviving B-24.

 

79 86 "they laugh at those guys. not to diminish those men's accomplishments but, when the enemy barely notices you it leaves a mark."

I'm all for diminishing those guys, but with their tremendously inflated sense of self-importance, it's amazing how Ike smoothly navigated around them.

I'd imagine being more like Patton having to deal with those clowns, but Ike was far more diplomatic

80

Brother Gun Owners,

Some of you may have already received this letter from Wayne LaPierre (NRA senior executive)

Federal beaucrats, anti gunners in Congress,  judges and media allies are about to take away gun owner freedoms. Gun owners may soon have to undergo psychological exams to get licensing and gun registration.

Just got back from my local gun club meeting. Members at my local club are all angry. Many are decorated veterans who put their lives on the line to keep gun rights. 

Consider joining the NRA if you have not.

1) Do you think government should have the power to limit the number of guns you can purchase?

2) Do you think the united nations should impose a Global Gun ban?

3) Should all gun owners be forced to register their guns with the federal and state governments?

4) Cass Sunstein wants to ban ALL hunting on public lands.

5) Do you support passage of "Castle Doctrine" laws that protect your right to self defense from violent home invaders?

6) Has the government done enough to protect our borders? Brutal Mexican drug cartels are just walking into USA.

Please Join the NRA (AT A MINIMUM). They really need help now

81 Midway smidway, you should see the proxy fight going on on our condo board. it is a cross between a springer episode, housewives of somewhere, and a three dimensional game of tic tac toe.

82 In The History of the United States, as written by  Commander Gutsy Call, Barry Obama personally cracked the code and torpedoed all four carriers after 16 hours of solemn self-deliberation. True story.

83 Alright.. couple things. Is that really the President of Estonia kicking all kinds of ass on twitter? and.. have you all seen the "Hitler finds our Walker won the recall".. pretty funny stuff.

84

Count the thing is if they had destroyed the facilities at Pearl our next opperating base was San Franciso another 2000 miles from where we would have to opperate against the enemy.

No Pearl Harbor forward opperating base no effective pacific counter offensuve offensive period.

The actual real goal of the attack was supposed to have been the destruction of the port facilities themselves, but Nagumo was afraid to risk a third assult wave because he did not know where the Lexington and Yorktown were at.

85 If the Aussies can survive living with the Jurassic Park style wildlife that's native only to that giant island, they can survive any external human enemy.

God bless them. Always wanted to visit there.

86 "Cmmdr. Rochefort - who was in charge of the code breaking effort."

"Maybe you should get out of here once in a while."

87 I just realized Rachel Maddow is Jon Stewart.

Posted by: nickless at June 06, 2012 09:08 PM (MMC8r)

They look enough alike to be brothers, that's for sure.

88

Today, June 6, in 1944 was also an inconvenient day for the Axis Powers in Europe. But alas my installation of IL-2 Sturmovik, the great WWII flight sim, does not have any Western Europe battlefront action. But it does have Midway. Tonight I'm flying a career in the USN until I get shot down. Prolly only take a minute. Then, off the IJN, for another brief career. Doesn't matter, every mission is like Torpedo 8 when I'm behind the stick. It'll be interesting to see how many missions I can fit in.

89 @93 troll somewhere else, everybody who likens ACE probably packs..

90 Cowboy, I just go with invulnerability and unlimited ammo, and blast the fuck out of Nazis and Japs by the dozens. Good pressure release after work.

91 "To be fair, we were the sole winners in the Pacific. In Europe, we had
de Gaulle, Montegomery, and all the other glorymongers acting like they
were the reason we beat the Germans."

--- read the german military archives, if you can find a good translator.

they laugh at those guys. not to diminish those men's accomplishments but, when the enemy barely notices you it leaves a mark.
Posted by: george lucas's neck-pouch at June 06, 2012 09:11 PM

They also had the Russians coming at them from the other side.  Who would you rather surrender to?

92 Obama to commemorate The Battle of Midway by not mentioning it. Posted by: cm9000 at June 06, 2012 09:01 PM (lzvtR) I'm glad he didn't say anything. He would have just said something completely insulting and opened up yet another window into his messed up anti-American, anti-military, anti-Western civilization world view.

93 "Stand Navy, out to sea
Fight our battle cry. . ."

94 65 the japanese were crushed at war's end.

barely any troop cohesion, their pilots were gone, fleet was decimated. but in all of that they were honorable in defeat.

japan is the cinderella story of WW2, their culture saw to that in an ironic way. its interesting to read about.

the europeans on the other hand, to paraphrase an american soldier from WW1 were..."terrible winners".

interesting.

Posted by: george lucas's neck-pouch at June 06, 2012 09:02 PM (X26Px)

I was in Yokosuka on Liberty with my buddy (plane captain trainee) in 1970 when an older Japanese man stopped us and started pointing to our insignia, making flying gestures and pointing to himself.  We were outside the "normal" places that sailors frequented, because we wanted to see the real town.
We ended up drinking beer in a local bar with him and his buddies, and they told us WWII war stories in broken English all afternoon, and we did our best with limited, probably horrible, Japanese.
If most of them were like that, "honorable in defeat" is an understatement.

95 bless the aussies, id fight alongside of those guys any day. and our military has, many times.

when you storm the front, bring those ACDC lovin, bad drinkin, bunyip wrestlers with ya. but thats jus me.

as far as patton dealing with monty and the rest of the euros...thats another epic in itself.

and fuck degaulle. that guy was an ass.

96

Taro, thank you for the information. Allways willing to learn.

 

97

Pop quiz: what was the only US battleship to sink an enemy battleship by gunfire in WWII, or in the modern era, actually.

Sadly, you cannot visit it, because after the war it was unceremoniously scrapped.

98 Obama to commemorate The Battle of Midway by not mentioning it. Posted by: cm9000 at June 06, 2012 09:01 PM (lzvtR) I'm glad he didn't say anything. He would have just said something completely insulting and opened up yet another window into his messed up anti-American, anti-military, anti-Western civilization world view. Posted by: elizabethe at June 06, 2012 09:24 PM (Jb7iM) yeah it would go something similar to "if i had won a major battle it would have looked something like midway, but I would have done better."

99

If the Aussies can survive living with the Jurassic Park style wildlife that's native only to that giant island, they can survive any external human enemy.

God bless them. Always wanted to visit there.

 

Posted by: The Q at June 06, 2012 09:19 PM (LnQhT)

 

Ha, me too. As I understand it, they're as close to "us" as you can get on this planet.

100 I was a WWII geek growing up and I spent a lot of my boyhood building WWII aircraft models.  I built a diorama of the Battle of Midway for a history project. I placed  a small scale pilot figure  with "Lt. Gay" painted on his back floating in the water.

Many years later , we had a surprise guest speaker at one of our Navy Reserve drill weekends ( in the 90's).

It was George Gay, the Navy pilot who was shot down , bailed out and famously watched the rest of the Battle of Midway while floating in his "Mae West" life jacket.

He told us the story of how he had to swim hard to avoid being run over by a Jap destroyer.

When I nervously went up to shake his hand it was like a dream. Real living breathing  American history.

I'll never forget that.

101 @110

USS Washington

102 Did Barry issue an apology to Japan?

103 Did Barry issue an apology to Japan? Posted by: TheQuietMan at June 06, 2012 09:28 PM (+H1JF) again?

104 "They also had the Russians coming at them from the other side. Who would you rather surrender to?"

--- the russians were seen as dishonorable, horrible war-fighters. i liked the russians of WW2 and understand their revenge, but the enemy didnt see it that way. the german/austrian/romanians were disgusted by their silly tactics and wastefulness. ands this coming from the guys who wantonly killed civilians. it was all fucked up to be honest.

"If most of them were like that, "honorable in defeat" is an understatement."

--- its the warrior culture with them i guess. the old samurai way. honor in defeat, you should see the vietnamese in that regard.

once a vietnamese knows your grandfather fought in that war, youre respected and held in esteem. its an asian thing i guess.

105 I am so proud of the men and women, gays and straights, who fought at Midway on my orders and on my behalf.

I am now ordering a Marine battalion to Chappaqua

106 CDR Joseph Rochefort and the Station Hypo crew (they were the code breakers in HI) did  crucial work in the early days of the war, and for the most part were not recognized.  Rochefort was not a traditional "Naval officer" (he was an enlisted man early in his career, and a Spook on top of that) and many in the Pacific theater thought that he should have been appropriately recognized for his leadership and work up to the Battle of Midway.  He was promoted to Captain, but was not recognized until after his death for his work (after Midway he was reassigned to shore duty in San Francisco - Hypo believed that AF was Midway, while the Intel Brass in DC felt the target was anyplace else but Midway).

107

I get the strategy, but am not knowlegeable about the battle damage to facilities at PH.

So how much damage did the first two attack waves do to the drydocks and fuel bunkers at Pearl?  From the movies, it seems the attacks  were concentrated on the battleships and airfields.  It didn't seem like a third wave would have even come close to knocking out the shore/harbor facilities.

 

Wasn't that a plot point in Midway?  Capital ships repaired in drydock/harbor and moved out w/out the enemy knowing.

108 @40

Actually, Herman Wouk had one of his fictional characters make virtually those same points in War and Remembrance published back in 1978.

109 yeah it would go something similar to "if i had won a major battle it would have looked something like midway, but I would have done better." Posted by: yankeefifth at June 06, 2012 09:26 PM (Z9EHQ) Obama's world view does not allow him to say that an American victory over the Japanese was good. He can honor those who fought the Germans, because Hitler, he grants, was evil (read his D-Day speech from 2009); but in his view, the Japanese were just your ordinary imperialists, no better or worse than America or Britain, so he simply would not have been able to say, in the grand scheme of things, that it was good that we won that battle. My grandfather, a Japanese POW for four years, who to his dying day would not let any of his family buy a Japanese care, is probably rolling over in his grave.

110 Yep, that was a brief career. Flew in VF-15 off the USS Hornet, one mission straight into a million Japanese coming to sink it. They succeeded. Got three Zekes before they gangbanged me, though.

111 @110

USS Washington, at the Battle of Guadalcanal.

112

Shattered Sword - which goes beyond the sketchy and limited Japanese accounts in the past that almost all relied on Japanese air commander Mitsuo Fuchida's book - is indeed excellent.  In particular the authors test Fuchida's account against certain known facts, and the known procedures and patterns of Japanese carrier operations, to debunk some myths.

 

Shattered Sword - IIRC - actually pretty much debunks the idea that Japan lost most of its best pilots at Midway.  Planes, yes, but a lot of pilots were recovered.  I believe the Solomons Campaign - a grinding war of attrition that lasted months and months - is considered to have been the single biggest meat-grinder for Japanese aviation.

 

A recent book - The Battle of Midway by Craig Symonds - is also interesting, and focuses more on personalities, and the epic eff-up that was the USS Hornet that day (quite amazing - as I recall he concludes that Adm. Mitscher and one of the squadron commanders basically falsified their after-action reports). 

 

An earlier comment asking whether the Doolittle Raid had caused Yamamoto to consider Midway a mistake - got it backwards, the Raid may have been the (small) final straw that made Yamamoto's Midway plan - opposed by the Army and not well loved by the Navy - to be approved.  The shame and shock of the Imperial Presence being threatened by the raid cinched the argument that the US carriers must be drawn in to battle and sunk (though most believe the Army and Navy has already assented to the Midway operation before the Raid).

 

 

113 Ken, # 123: "Actually, Herman Wouk had one of his fictional characters make virtually those same points in War and Remembrance published back in 1978." Great scene. Warren Henry is pointing out where the Pearl Harbor attack fell short. His uncharacteristically drunk father, having come to Pearl too late to take command of the now-wrecked USS California, responds, "I'm sure that Jap admiral is committing suicide right now over his disgraceful failure."

114

Count, correct they had to destroy the aircraft on the ground and fleet before it could sally forth and counter attack. That was accomplished is the first two strikes. The second strike was probably not necessary the fleet and aircraft were pretty devestated by strike one. Strike three would have been the knockout blow for the port facilities that was never landed because Nagumo feared an ambush by our carriers that he had expected to be in port on a Sunday.

" Why aren't they in port? Are they going to ambush us? We've destroyed most of their fleet, let,s get out while the getting is good."

115

 

Strike three would have been the knockout blow for the port facilities  that was never landed because Nagumo feared an ambush by our carriers that he had expected to be in port on a Sunday.

" Why aren't they in port? Are they going to ambush us? We've destroyed most of their fleet, let,s get out while the getting is good."

Posted by: Spad13 at June 06, 2012 09:47 PM (ctvKN)

 

OK!  Thanks for putting me some knowlege.  Seems like they could have made that point a bit clearer in the movies.  Or else I'm dense.

116 "In a planned coordinated attack, the dive-bombers were supposed to distract the enemy fighters, so as to give the torpedo planes their chance to come in. Instead the torpedo planes had pulled down the Zeroes and cleared the air for the dive-bombers. What was not luck, but the soul of the United States of America in action, was this willingness of the torpedo plane squadrons to go in against hopeless odds. This was the extra ounce of martial weight that in a few decisive minutes tipped the balance of history." ~~  Herman Wouk

117

CDR Joseph Rochefort and the Station Hypo crew (they were the code breakers in HI)

 

Hey weren't those code breakers indians, I mean they had high cheekbones and all ....  Yeah I think they were Cherokee and my pawpaw was one of them.

 

118

Survived a mission for the IJN! But of course the only things I saw were Dauntlesses. Even so, one of them crippled my engine with a lucky shot (but not before I took out his bro).

 

119

Shattered Sword - could not put it down.  Scholarhip kicks ass.

The Battle for Leyte Gulf - C. Vann Woodward is in the same class.  Can someone explain to us why Halsey did not get his ass court-martialed?  Other than that he was "too big to nail"?

Yes, USS Washington gave IJN Kirishima a very bad evening.

120 "Here you are, remember this is a Navy song, UK and USA."

"UK and USA"

-- always.

121 June 6, 1944 is also the day of the liberation of Rome. (Sorry if someone's already mentioned this--I haven't read the comments yer.)

122

So Walker won by about 7%, after exit polls showed close, 50/50 race.

Same exit polls say Obama beats Romney and that is what msm focuses on?

I've never been "exit polled" but if I were I would absolutely lie about my vote, just for the fun of it.

123 Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors... Battle of Leyte Gulf... Hornfitcher.  Execellent book.   Don't forget Wake Island either boys..!

124 apologies for my off topic post ... wrong thread.

125 best battles ive read about....

--- the american campaign in WW1= astounding to say the least. farm boys from america running rough shod over "elite" german forces. inspiring to say the least.

--- the pacific war and all of its ugliness and despair. tactical naval fights and the island hopping with every terrain you can think of is amazing to read through.

--- the eastern front and its whackiness. it was one big lunatic asylum with the inmates running the war zone. and THAT is an understatement.

--- battle of the bulge. what an icy, foreboding wasteland. residents left fresh baked pies and beer for the troops to eat lol 

and one of my favorite sayings of WW2= "wow...the germans are so much cleaner and nicer than the french...and the russian girls are beautiful...but hairy."

126

Sherlock, as Yip in Texas points out, Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors (Hornfischer) is THE book to read on Leyte Gulf - but perhaps it's so good because the real story is so amazing.  As I have whined in these comments sections several times, the best easiest great war movie never made.

 

Halsey - definitely "too big to nail" - he had quite a popular following and was aggressive in battle, and Nimitz on balance decided to shelter him for the consequences of his Leyte wild goose chase and the hurricane disaster.  His top deputy at the time of Midway, who accompanied the task force while he stayed in the hospital with dermatitis, was also a bit problematic.  Miles Browning, very disliked by the best squadron leaders, was involved with some of the more dubious reporting out of the Midway battle, and did not do well when given a carrier command of his own.  In a final blow, he was the grandfather of Chevy Chase (seriously!).

 

Ah yes, the last major surface battle at Surigao Strait.  I did the Lib. of Cong. vets' interview of the junior radar tech on the USS West Virginia, which first detected and fired the first salvo at the Japanese column.

 

127 128
JNAF lost more than 300 pilots at Midway.

128 Second recommendation for "Last stand of the tin can sailors" Take 2 destroyers and 2 destroyer escorts and make a suicide charge at a Japanese main force fleet made up of battleships, cruisers and destroyers so the small escort carriers you are guarding can try to get away. Total suicide and the sailors knew it and they did their duty. God speed to the USS Hoel, USS Johnston, USS Samuel B. Roberts.

129

Several of you have mentioned The Shattered Sword.  I was gonna mention some of the things they did in the introduction (it's online) and then I thought, nah, these goobers can find that shit or already did.

 

Breitbart was right.  We have the best commenters anywhere on the internets.

130 I have been there 1958 to 1961

131 Third recommendation for Hornfischer's "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors."


CDR Ernest Evans, CO of USS JOHNSTON, posthumous MOH.  The balls on that guy!

132 I have The Shattered Sword, but it's boxed up while I'm renovating my house.  I have a lot of books I mean to get around to....  heh.   Lots of good moron info on here and agreement.  Pretty cool.   (And I apologize for screwing up Hornfischers' name in my post..  I typed too fast...  You guys  know, I emailed him a year or so ago and told him how much I enjoyed his books and he emailed me back.  Someday I'll drive down to Austin and look him up.  He said he'd sign my books if I brought them.  Pretty cool.

133 Also, about Fredericksburg , TX and the Nimitz museum , ;  Talked with a coworker tonight about it and he said it was great.  He spent almost 6 hours there until his wife literally had to drag him out.   I need to get down there too.  And the D-day museum in New Orleans!

134

147 Second recommendation for "Last stand of the tin can sailors"

It's on my Kindle list.  And I have heard somewhere that this action caused no little consternation among the Japanese High Command.  Suddenly, Admiral Kurita, who was assumed to be fearless, turned tail and ran, and the enemy that was assumed to be afraid to die fighting... wasn't.

135 Chicago Midway Airport is named after the Battle of Midway.

136 ....  Stormy... there's a Barky joke there somewhere, ...

137 #154 - And O'Hare is named for LCDR Butch O'Hare, WWII Naval aviator, flying ace, and MOH recipient.

138

Speaking of museums...  In LA for a family wedding 2 years ago and my bros-in-law and I went looking for the Northrup museum at Hawthorn field (think YB-49 flying-wing takeoff film).  Moved to Torrance it was, says the guard at this place called "SpaceEx".  Could we have a tour of SpaceEx?  NFW. (I was the only one of us who knew WTF SpaceEx was back then by the way.)

Down to Torrance.  Found the museum, but since it is a Monday, it is closed!  As we are walking back to the car, this guy comes out and asks if we are from "out of town".  We assure him we are from waaay OOT, and he says "Okay I'll open her up for you!"

So the museum, the "Western Museum of Flight", is pretty cool - a lot of neat stuff about the aviation industry history in SoCal, with a Northrup flavor.  Then we go out onto the tarmac.

So I am kind of an aircraft recognition heavy-hitter (Oh shit, I am going to regret that on this SMB, I think) and I look at this plane on the tarmac and yell "Holy shit, that's a YF-23!"  My BILs (no strangers to aviation lore themselves) say "Huh?" and the museum guy looks at me like a long-lost friend.  Google it.

Then we tuen to our left and see a YF-17 Cobra!  Holy shit again!  Turns out the guy showing us around was the dude in charge of the Northrup wind tunnel when they discovered the leading-edge strakes thing.  Turns out that "discovered" is a euphemism for "after several months of scratching our asses, accidently stumbled on WTF was causing the wind-tunnel model to fly so unexpectedly well at high angles of attack".  But go there and he can tell you - it's a hoot.

Anyway, we three spent almost 2 hours there at the "closed" museum and had a blast with this guy who was only minutes from getting home to a barbecue.  Asked the guy what his volunteer job was at the non-profit museum and he says "Treasurer", so we forced $100 bucks on him for "admission", and walked away with great big shit-eating grins.  Go there.

139

Great story, Sherlock.  I'll definitely add that one to the list.  And dammit, just last week, some couple I ran into was telling me about the restaurant/museum right near LAX, just off the 405, that has several aircraft visible when you land at LAX.  Now I can't recall the name - but it's on Aviation, just south of the runways, and across from the huge Northrop (?) factories.   That whole area (from near Torrance to El Segundo to Hawthorne) was covered by aircraft factories during WWII (one reason the US was rolling one combat aircraft off the line EVERY FIVE MINUTES by August 1945 - 24/7 ..... try to imagine that level of production).

 

Oh hell, since we're talking museums, when in San Diego, don't miss three lightly marketed military museums:  Flying Leatherneck Aviation at Miramar, Command Museum at MCRD (part of recruit training is a certain number of hours there with combat vet docents, getting Corps lore and history), and the small WWII coastal artillery museum at Cabrillo Nat. Monument at the tip of Pt. Loma (a must-see place anyway, with commanding views of not just the Pacific but all SD County and down into Mexico). 

 

And since Leyte Gulf has sort of infiltrated this Midway thread ..... a nice monument to Taffy 3 and Adm. Sprague on the dock right opposite the USS Midway carrier museum, and a bunch of monuments to ships and air wings from that battle (incl. the Johnston, Hoel, and Sammy B) up at Rosecrans Nat. Cemetery, a beautiful place flanking both sides of the peninsula at whose tip sits Cabrillo.  From the port side, down low at the fence, the best view of any US nuclear sub base you'll ever find.  If a sub there looks funny - say like it might have been a missile sub but is now shorter and just funny looking .... it is one of those modified to work with the SEALs, based just a bit further in the distance, next to the Hotel Del Coronado.

 

140 Thanks for the museum ideas!  Whenever I make a trip to CA, I'll look for that Midway Museum.  heh.

141 God Bless Commander John C. Waldron, and the rest of Torpedo Squadon Eight, only one of whom survived the Battle of Midway. His final order: “My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation, but if we don’t, and worst comes to worst, I want each of us to do his utmost to destroy our enemies. If there is only one plane left to make a final run-in, I want that man to go in and get a hit. Good luck and God Speed.”

142 In my humble opinion, events leading up to and during battle of Midway indicate an Unseen Hand influencing the outcome.

143 If you can find a copy of "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin (it's currently out of print), the last chapter "The Other Midway" about the B-26 Marauders (armed w/torpedoes) and the TBF Avengers (in their baptism of fire) which attacked from Midway is about as harrowing an account of the ordeal of the torpedo bombers at Midway as you will ever read.

Two of the four B26s and five of the six TBFs were shot down, with loss of all aircrews.

144 "In my humble opinion, events leading up to and during battle of Midway indicate an Unseen Hand influencing the outcome." Agreed. God Bless The United States Of America. Of course, God gave us William F. Friedman and the other codebreakers.

145 "the Aussies were OK" -- read about the Australian territorials in New Guinea (their first-line units were all in North Africa fighting Rommel) holding the Kokoda track and throwing first-line Japanese army units back from Port Moresby.

Go, Diggers!

146 Quoting: "Of course, God gave us William F. Friedman and the other codebreakers."

 Another Friedman that we were blessed with was Milton, economic warrior.

147

@8

 

>>Great flick, when we still were proud of our Armed Forces.<<

 

This.

 

One thing for which I will never forgive the Reds/ Democrats/ progressives/ socialists/ communists/ scum by whatever name they call themselves is undermining our pride in and support for our armed forces.

148 "Another Friedman that we were blessed with was Milton, economic warrior." I had the honor of taking Milton's last class at the University of Chicago...

149 “My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation, but if we don’t, and worst comes to worst, I want each of us to do his utmost to destroy our enemies. If there is only one plane left to make a final run-in, I want that man to go in and get a hit. Good luck and God Speed.” Waldron knew that his torpedo planes sucked, but he attacked anyway, and lost his life doing so, opening the way for the dive bombers to sink the Japanese carriers.

150 If you can find a copy of "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin


Great... sounds like a good book.  I'm going to have to try and find that.  Thanks

151 Ok, just found a used copy of the book on Amazon.  I'll be reading it soon. Thanks again

152 Oh, one of my favorite subjects. It was extensive reading about Midway, and particularly Yorktown's overlooked role in the battle that led me to get my college degree in history. Beto, I'm jealous of you for having known your neighbor. Do you remember his name?

A couple of things about the battle:

The sacrifice made by the torpedo pilots of all three carriers is one of those things that demonstrate a level of valor that defies logical thought. Waldron was a wizard. Flying the slowest planes, he got to the Japenese fleet first. He took off from Hornet, said "Follow me" to Torpedo 8, and flew right to Nagumo. Fletcher should have put him in charge of finding the enemy(BTW, Fletcher was in overall command, not Spruance, a fact that most history books seem to overlook). Torpedo 8 was savaged. Topredo 6 from Enterprise attacked next. Their fighters were in the area, but Fighting 6 was bingo on fuel and had to RTB without firing a shot. Yorktown alone got her planes to the enemy fleet in a coordinated stack, and when Massey led Torpedo 3 against the Hiryu (Side note; if the USN had had a torpedo worth a bucket of warm spit, we might have gotten all 4 carriers on the 4th), Jimmy Thatch was waiting with 6 F4Fs to greet them. The ensuing furball was savage as Nagumo's entire CAP, which had begun to climb back to altitude after shredding the torpedo planes from Hornet and Enterprise, dove on the TBDs and Wildcats. We rightly laud the heroic torpedo men who drew the Japanese Zeros down to the deck, clearing the way for Leslie and McClusky to attack from above (The carnage was terrific. Torpedo 8 in it's entirety, 10/14 off of Enterprise lost and only 2 of Massey's 12 Torpedo 3 planes made it home), but what is often overlooked is that it was Thatch and Fighting 3 kept them there, without them the Zeros would have had time to reform at height, and the battle could have turned out very differently indeed.

Shawn, Just FTR, only 4 of Bombing 3s planes were without bombs, but one of those was Commander Leslie's plane. He attacked Kaga 1st anyway, machine gunning the flight deck, because he felt that  it was imperative that the most experienced pilot, namely himself, set the dive course for the attack. Following Leslie was Swede Holmberg, who dropped his 1000 lb bomb right in the middle of the rising sun insignia on Kaga's flight deck. That was the first American blow to land.

Now I know lots of y'all are at this point squirming in your seats, just bursting to tell me how wrong I am in the events recounted above. Mclusky off of Enterprise took Kaga down, Leslie attacked later and hit Soryu. Everyone says so. That's what Morrison wrote, and his book is the last word! Etc, etc. Samuel Morrison is indeed a historian with few peers, and his work is indeed the definitive one, but on this one thing, the order of battle, he got it dead backwards. A historian named Tuleja reconstructed the proper sequence of events*, and battered old Yorktown was first. It's kinda fitting that it should be so, after all, Yorktown was the unsung hero of the first six months of WWII. Enterprise and Hornet got the headlines, and all of America wanted to "Haul out (ass, really) with Halsey", but I'd rather "Fight with Fletch". Yorktown was always in the thick of things (usually accompanied by Lexington ) the way the other two ships weren't (And let's please don't even mention Saratoga, safe in her Bremerton shipyards dry dock. She spent the entire year before the war in dry dock being fitted with blisters to make her torpedo proof...and then the entire first year of the war in dry dock having torpedo damage reared. Star crossed ship, she was, she wound up being nuked in atom bomb tests post war)

Spad 13, on December 7th, Yorktown was in Norfolk, Va. I doubt Nagumo was worried about her. Enterprise, on the other hand....She was heading for Oahu at the time and actually launched Wildcats trying to get into the fight. Sadly, many of them were shot down by nervous AA gunners as they tried to land on Ford Island later.


*Anyone really interested in the details can find them in the appendix of the book Climax At Midway. Tuleja makes a pretty convincing case.

153 Oh, and Thatch was protecting the TBDs, not greeting them. Damn typo

154 thanks for the info Weirddave!