1 You could be right...

2 Stepping on the ONT: Very bold.
10.0

3 Stepping on the ONT. Insane? Or operating outside the norms of civilized society?

4 He is insane in the sense that he is obviously deranged and his motives are not rational. But in a legal sense, he is not insane. He ran from the scene. He knew what he did was wrong or he would be held acceptable for it. There is a better word to describe his condition: evil.

5 This, Sir, is a brilliant assessment. 

6 Eh. You're a little heavy on the fictional examples and light on the real-world situation. Insane does not mean stupid, nor does it mean an inability to plan. The guy might actually think he's the Joker, for example. Schizophrenia (not saying that it's the case) doesn't prevent a person from making and executing detailed plans. I'm not saying he shouldn't fry.

7 Lean anything from the 20th Century? How about going back to the dawn of men. People do violent things that the rest of us would perceive as without sufficient motivation. Animals do this too. When animals do it, people put them down. Except for the West, people do the same thing when someone goes and kills without justification. Just saying.

8 Every asshole who murders someone in cold blood is insane. That is not a legal definition, but a real definition. The legal definition says he understood what he did was wrong. That's all. Most crazy folks know they are doing something wrong. They can't always stop doing it, but they know it ain't right.

In Alaska, you can be found guilty but insane, meaning you get psychiatric treatment until you are well enough to serve your sentence. None of this "innocent by reason of insanity" crap. You do your time, regardless. Wish the rest of the country would figure this out and get on board.

9 I'm still betting he wanted to be the poster boy for in his mind the real OWS. Didn't take his own life, wanted the notoriety associated with it. He 's not crazy, just a fanatic IMO

10 Some folks are jut evil. He needs to be put down yesterday.

11 He's clearly abnormal and emotionally troubled. But that's not the same thing as insane.

12 I think this is mostly wrong. For one thing, academic achievement and mental illness don't have to be exclusive. Minds that are disordered in one regard can be capable of full function in other respects. Also, I think that there's a profound difference between institutionalized murder--where the individual's reluctance is buttressed by an entire apparatus meant to justify that murder--and the non-coerced murder in the theatre. Conflating the actions of a concentration camp executioner with the Batman shooter ignores the vast difference in societal justification with the one and the absolute lack in the other. It wasn't the largest mass shooting in U.S. history. Not even close, really. Cho at Virginia Tech killed more than twice as many people (32 victims), and his probably isn't even the largest. >>if Holmes were truly crazy...blown himself up<< Yeah, I concur with that.

13 Though there are some reports that when his mother was contacted, her response was "you've got the right man." If so there's been at least some indication that Holmes' problem- whether crazy or just wanting to watch the world burn- was nothing new. Otherwise, your analysis is clearly, chillingly well-stated. There's crazy and then there's just plain evil.

14 Can I at least have the "obviously an asshole" conclusion?

15 I guess if by "largest mass shooting" its the largest number of people shot, yeah, his attack was much larger than Cho's. I guess I read that as largest number of fatalities. In either case, a sick tragedy in both cases, as if it needs saying.

16 ...When Sandra and I first spoke on the phone this morning about the Aurora massacre, while I was in the DFW airport en route to Denver, she wondered out loud what could have made Holmes do this....

Was it just a Fluke?  (ill humor, but well all deal with tragedy in different ways)

Could it be this so called  "brilliant" soon to be monster, was exposed to too much indoctrination in the hallowed halls of  liberal ideology in his chosen field?

17 It is not the case that everybody who kills in cold blood is insane. Many people kill for rational reasons to achieve specific goals; these people are brutal and cruel and ruthless, but not necessarily insane.

A guy who thinks he is living out the Batman movies is very possibly insane. 

18 I get the impression you could be very right.  It could be his failure at school lead him to another path for fame.  One person he might have some connection to is Anders of Norway.  Especially if you think his apartment was supposed to go off first.

19 To even entertain the assertion that a wanton act of murder, such as this, is not insane. Is insane. Sorry. Ban me. I give a fuck. Justifying murder, is insane. Oh, but,...he was going for a PhD? Huzzah...............

20 cover up Holmes #OWS background  with white noise

21 If he's not insane then what were his rational reasons and goals for dressing up like a character and shooting up a movie theater? What system was he part of, what regime was he running, how did this keep him in power? Just because he was meticulous and intelligent does not make him sane.

22 #19: Fritz isn't "justifying" anything; he's saying the killer is evil, not crazy.

23 Dressed up for a midnight showing.  Its called camouflage.  Anders dressed up to look like a cop when he showed up on the island.  Lull people and you can kill more.  That is cold meticulous evil planning. 

24 I suggest a few moments to review Harry Chapin's "Sniper and other Love Songs"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB5_N-D5sv0

25 This fits within the bounds of what the secularist left has always been elsewhere, and has at times been up to here. He's not insane, he lives at the outer boundary of accepted leftism. I don't have any direct evidence of this. It's my conjecture based upon what I know of leftists and what I know of the specific act: killing people engaged in capitalism, and doing so to consume a product which apparently celebrates or at least does not vilify capitalism. That he was a joker fan and he pulled a joker-style act of naked terrorism is ancillary I think to his goal of killing for the left, to be lionized by the leftist cultural elements.

26 Remember the smiley face bomber Luke Helder? I saw him being transported by the US Marshall. He appeared to be laughing and joking with them. Looked like a happy go lucky kid. 11 years later, he still hasn't been found competent to stand trial. I assume he has to be medicated but he's still nuts.

27 Thanks for this. The ONTers are doubtless hoping to talk about boobs and not think about this event. I don't blame them. So, this post is where we can draw off this topic's traffic. As for the OP: loughner was nutso. Breivik had a reason. This one... is somewhere in between. Where's his manifesto plagiarised from LGF and/or Kos and/or IslamicAwakening?

28 one wonders if other folks in the theater were dressed up as characters from that franchise?

29 OK.  It was just Harry Chapin's "Sniper"

30 A lot of people like the fictional character of the joker. That's why he's batmans main nemesis. If people didn't like the character, batman comics wouldn't feature as many joker stories. Totally okay to enjoy a fictional character, even a really bad guy. But I can't think of another case when someone brought the joker to life like this.

31 The definition of insane is whether he knew the difference between right and wrong at the time he killed - not that he committed murder. Also, you have to be competent to stand trial. Loughner has not been found competent to stand trial - not insane in that he didn't know the difference between right and wrong when he shot all those people.

32 Charles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was a student at the University of Texas at Austin and a former Marine who killed 16 people and wounded 32 others (a total of 49 victims including himself) during a shooting rampage on and around the university's campus on August 1, 1966.

Whitman killed three of his victims inside the university's tower, and 10 others from the 28th floor observation deck[1] of the University's 307-foot (94 m) administrative building; one, Karen Griffith, died from her wounds a week after the shooting.

33 >>>As for the OP: loughner was nutso. Breivik had a reason. This one... is somewhere in between. Don't be so sure. See my Luke Helder example.

34 I don't think the shooter was/is insane. He just has a touch of detatched reality syndrome with obsessive shooter compulsion.

35 Truman; yeah, because of this clown, we are now going to be dealing with overreaction "security" at every event where something fun is going on. "Harvey Dent Act", one might say.

36 These politicians only make noises because they know that it wouldn't take much to have one of these homicidal maniacs make them their next target.

37 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

38 Holmes: "I'm the Joker!" Cop: "Yeah. Well. Your mouth isn't fucked up enough, prettyboy. I've got a lock-blade. Hold still."

39

28  one wonders if other folks in the theater were dressed up as characters from that franchise?

 

Apparently so.

It was mentioned on the news coverage earlier today......that some of the people there were in costumes.

And many people thought initially that the Shooter was "part of the show".

40 When 14 persons, most of them military personnel on the base at Ft. Hood, Texas, were murdered by Islamic terrorist and U.S. Military Colonel Nidal Hasan, America's flags were not lowered to half mast until the next day.
Today, by at least 2:30 pm EDT, the order came down from on high to lower our flags in a sign of mourning for the victims of today's shootings inside an Aurora Colorado movie theatre showing the much awaited Batman: The Dark Knight Rises.

41 Jack: You owe me gas money. Neal

42 40 Ft Hood was a simple case ofworkplace violence.Right?

43 Got to mostly disagree with Open Blogger. Paranoid schizophrenia comes on in young adulthood. One of my friends has a son who went to Yale Law and deteriorated into a PS by the time he was in his second year. He's dangerous. Doctors confirm his illness over and over but he won't get help. This is very common.

However you diagnose him, he should be behind bars for life, like the nut from Norway or Loughner or Hasan the other unhinged madmen that we let roam around until they do something bad.

Yeah, they're insane.

44 July 18th was the anniversary of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre. 21 killed and 19 wounded in 1984.  I remember hearing about it but I do not remember a lot of politicizing of the horror.

45

 

The Aurora police chief is not releasing Holme's mug shot taken today, when they booked him.

He didn't really give a good reason.....but maybe he has one.

 

The picture of him that they keep showing....is an older shot of him.

 

It seems like it would be make more sense to show the mug shot....

That way, people might recognize the guy and come forward with info about him.....as in "Oh yeah, I know that guy."

46

Thank you wheatie.

 

47 Spot on with Lauder.  I had the exact same thought.

48 Insane, aberrant, evil. Whatever you call it, it is a one in what, ten million act? So it is by definition inexplicable, and so devoid of any larger meanings or lessons.

49 I think you have to be insane to do this kind of thing, it takes a certain madness to murder and do the evils you list, even if they're at war or by a dictator. The problem is people automatically assume that means "so they shouldn't be punished normally" which is just a batch of crap.

50 He didn't build that bomb by himself.  A teacher helped him learn to read and someone built those roads he drove on.

I guess you could say, it's my fault.(same logic)

51 But I'd argue that the Joker in the movie was absolutely insane, without question. Insane people can act very rationally and functionally in society. They just have a very, very screwed up understanding of the world and why they do things.

52 He's not insane.

He is a cold blooded, calculating actor who killed people for a reason outside of who they were.  It doesn't matter if it was a bus full of nuns or a GBLT conference, he commited this act at that venue for a purpose, a statement.

To show him how far outside the bouncaries of acceptable society his statement was, he deserves no less the fate than he granted to 12 souls today.  In as efficient a manner as possible.

53 There are a lot of legitimate questions to ask, but the one that's bothering me but I don't hear anyone talking about (not just here, anywhere) is why the hell he hinted to the cops that his apartment was a freaking death trap.  Why the sudden concern with human life? 

My gut reaction when I first heard about it (before coffee and shower could clear any senses) was the economy drove him to it.  Seeing as he's neuroscientist who graduated top of his class but was working at McDonalds, that's not unreasonable.  I don't know what it is he learned or how marketable it was, but you don't want to be "the Neuroscientist flipping burgers" purely out of a sense of self worth.  The Joker kind of seems like that kind of guy, really bright but for whatever reason couldn't make it in society, so he decides to torch that and finds he enjoys it.  I think this Holmes guy started shooting and really got into it while it was happening, but once that immediate adrenaline rush ended to some extent he realized what a fucking horrible thing he had done.  After that, he's clammed up, mostly because he's mentally conflicted between knowing he's a monumental fuck-up and the construct of super villain he's created of himself. 

Yeah, I'm not a psychologist, this is spit balling.  And in any case, fry his ass. 

54 He obviously wanted to live thru the incident. He did not engage LE when they found him. He wanted to shoot only people who would not shoot back. Since we know for sure we have the right guy, but he ain't talking, I wouldn't have a big problem with beating the explanation of motive out of him. He should cave pretty easily to a beating I think.

55 Not sick, just evil.

56

What this guy did was pure evil....and insane.

But is he insane?

I dunno.

Let's just put him down like a rabid dog....and let God figure it out.

 

I just read Ben Shapiro's review of The Dark Knight Rises...over at Breitbart.

It's full of Spoilers.

But I love spoilers.

He calls it...."Magnificent. Most Conservative Film Ever".

After reading his review...with the spoilers...I have to agree.

57 Apparently from what I've read the shooter was a nerdy guy who didn't have any friends, had trouble getting a job, was doing poorly in school, and probably couldn't get a girlfriend.

Most likely he was probably in a long downward spiral of depression and decided to take his frustration out on the world.

He killed a lot of people and needs to pay for his crimes but I don't feel hate or anger towards him. What I really feel is pity.

58 Where did a neuroscientist flipping burgers come up with a) the money for all the hardware he was sporting or b)the expertise to build the bombs at his apartment?

In any case, but particularly if the claim is that he snapped in June?

59 @53

You blaming my sorry ass economy for this?   Hey, let's see your tax returns.

60 >>>why the hell he hinted to the cops that his apartment was a freaking death trap. He was proud of his work and couldn't keep it a secret? Or, crazy people often go in and out of their craziness. At that time he realized what he had done and warned the cops.

61 I feel hate and anger towards him. He was shooting at kids and teenagers. He was smirking in his post-arrest photo. He didn't give cops the opportunity to end him by shooting at them. He's added fuel to the "gun owners are whacked" BS, and I own guns.

62 If someone kills because he's "insane" and "not in control of himself," I've always felt that that's actually all the more reason to put him in the ground. I mean, if he's that dangerous and can't control his own actions, he'll do it again, right? Whether he attacks an orderly at the sanitarium or "goes off his meds" when he's declared "rehabilitated" and let free to walk the streets, he will lose control and try to kill again at some point.

63

July 18th was the anniversary of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre. 21 killed and 19 wounded in 1984. I remember hearing about it but I do not remember a lot of politicizing of the horror.

 

I remember that. I also remember the Luby's massacre in Texas wherein a guy who usually packed, left his gun home that day and was had to watch people being executed.

64 I think you have to keep things in perspective. Though the injuries are extremely high, the number of fatalities is a akin to a Friday night in Chicago. Are you in more danger from a paranoid schiz? Or, are you in more danger from a gangbanger? I say the later.

65 He was proud of his work and couldn't keep it a secret? Or, crazy people often go in and out of their craziness. At that time he realized what he had done and warned the cops.

Posted by: Redd at July 20, 2012 11:45 PM (ZuD3o)

I think he probably said something more along the lines of:  "Yeah, have fun in my apartment".  A douchebag like this wants everyone to know how clever he is.

So I doubt he copped to it.  He said something to tip them off, but unintentionally. 

I ain't there, so I don't know ... just my 2 cents.

66 Thank you, Fritz. I always appreciate finding out I'm not the only one who's thinking a certain way. Bill O'Reilly was interviewing some clueless idiot tonight who kept saying that HE could have predicted this young man would do something like this, and that had HE come across this young man, HE would have been able to get him committed to a psychiatric hospital, blah blah blah... Insufferable arrogant prick. All that was going through my mind as I was listening was: None of these "experts" believe in the existence of EVIL, do they? I forget what wise person once said that the greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was the one he pulled in modern times: convincing people that he doesn't exist. Sometimes people just CHOOSE evil.

67 I saw the movie. It is a badly written reactionary fantasy. I am a reactionary with a soft spot for Hobbes, so it was written for me. But it was bad. And Ben Shapiro needs to grow up, but hasn't had to, so he never will.

68

It's still in the "first 24 hrs".....so everything as far as back story, is still preliminary.

 

But, here's what was said about the shooter, Holmes, today....

-- He droped out Med school a month ago.

-- Had been in Grad school, studying neuroscience.

-- Was an Honor Student, as an undergrad. 

-- He's unemployed.

-- Has around $80K in student loans.

-- When his Mother was asked this morning if this could be her son....she said "You've got the right man".

 

We don't know yet if this guy was a part of the OWSers, or not.

Some have said that he was "obsessed with the Batman series"....well, a lot of people are, so that doesn't really serve as an indicator of much of anything yet.

 

I didn't catch Greta tonight....she is there in Aurora, and is usually good at sussing out a story.

So I am planing to try to stay up for the replay of her show, in an hour.

69 I forget what wise person once said that the greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was the one he pulled in modern times: convincing people that he doesn't exist.

*Ahem*

70

It is interesting that he is the same age as was Lee Harvey Oswald.  Two frustrated and angry losers who wanted to do something "big" to prove that they weren't simply nobodies.

71

Stop with the green hair BS.

Heath Ledger had red hair as The Joker in this Trilogy.

Put the comic books away

72 Greta is on now, live on the scene.

73 His mother knew he was dangerous. She told the first eporters who contacted her, "You've got the right guy."

It's just like Columbine. Everything we were told about Columbine was a lie. The two killers weren't bullied; they weren't outsiders; they didn't target jocks; they didn't belong to a "trench-coat mafia"; they weren't miserably unhappy losers with a grudge against the world.

Their parents let them build pipe bombs in their garages. These young men have been raised by parents who are completely emotionally disconnected from them, and the kids grow up with no sense of empathy.

They do what they do because they like it. It's fun to them. That's as deep as it goes. They lack empathy and imagination, so the only thing they can think of doing that excites them is committing lethal mayhem.

Talking to this guy, you'll discover that he's intelligent and incredibly immature and boring. But a raving lunatic? No.

74 Over! Sorry, fnc now doing repeat of Hannity.

75 Murderer(in this case Holmes)/rabid animal. Don't really see the difference, both should be taken care of the same way. Many people seem to think because one looks like a human it should be treated differently.

76 I've got a concealed carry permit, but I rarely carry. I'm a pretty good shot, and I live in Virginia. I thought about this from the perspective of someone who might--might--have had the chance to effect the outcome of something like this, and my thinking went something like: "If I were in a crowded, smoky, dark theatre and some guy started shooting the place up, and there were screaming people running around, could I draw and fire on him, knowing that I might have to live with the guilt of having accidentally shot an innocent trying to end his spree?" Plenty of people will stroke their gun dicks and say, "of course, you gotta do the right thing," and "if you're not ready to draw and fire, you shouldn't carry." I get all that. But under the circumstances, it's not so clear-cut, and until you've actually seen someone who's been shot, rushing to answer it seems a little forward. Others might have a quick, easy answer for that kind of question. I don't, and I resent the liberal cocksuckers who assume that we don't think about those kinds of things, having never had to sit quietly and consider the responsibility that comes with gun ownership.

77

 

"Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater." <--- How many times have we heard this phrase?

That's bad, right?

 

Well, I would say that walking into a crowded theater and opening fire....on a captured group of people....is wholesale slaughter.

Period.

The sonovabitch was even wearing body armor.

He should be put down, like a rabid dog.

78 At the end of the day, it is still more likely you'll be killed in a car wreck than be a gun shot victim.

79 So if someone had showed up at the opening night of Avatar, a movie as leftwing as the Batman series is rightwing, and killed a bunch of people wouldn't that alone of had the talking classes discussing the murders as an act of political violence?

Oh, and for the record Loughner is indeed crazy, but only because he took left wing ideas about the nature of reality to their logical conclusion.

80 Great, great post, fitz . . . you are absolutely right, evil is walking and if we don't deal with it, we will be so fucked.  Crazy is not a good excuse.

81 Did you see the story about him belonging to some sort of adult friend finder?

82 I have problems with labeling truly mentally ill people as evil. it is an illness - not a moral failing.

83

72 Greta is on now, live on the scene.

 

Well shit...wish I'd known that.

I was avoiding the O'Reilly replay.

84 Stop with the green hair BS.
Heath Ledger had red hair as The Joker in this Trilogy.
Put the comic books away
---
Really? Drudge has one of the Dark Knight movie posters up right now and Ledger's hair looks green to me.

A yahoo search of "ledger joker" turns up a bunch of images where his hair is green to blond and all of one where it's red. On closer inspection, that one has been photoshopped to look like Ronald McDonald. So, nice try anyway.

85 At the end of the day, it is still more likely you'll be killed in a car wreck than be a gun shot victim.
***
If you want to look at the statistics, isn't the most likely way for a human being to be murdered at the hands of a socialist?

There are something like 16k murders in the US per year. In the PRC, by comparison, the PRC has killed about 500k people per year on average.

86 "Where did a neuroscientist flipping burgers come up with a) the money for all the hardware he was sporting or b)the expertise to build the bombs at his apartment?"

I dunno, mom and dad?  Assuming mom and dad were part of the weather underground, that is.  I have no idea how complicated rigging up a homemade bomb is, never tried it.  His must be pretty damn good, though, since the cops are talking about burning down the house rather than defusing it. 

Next question: how does somebody shoot 71 other people without somebody else firing back? 

(I'm still really puzzled by why he didn't let the firefighters walk into his tap, though)

87 It really doesn't matter if a person is considered insane or sane when they murder.  Murder is simply murder.  We like to make excuses for it but there really is none.  And I'm not talking self-defense which isn't murder.  People know when they kill.  They may not know why they did it, but they know they did it.   So because a person has some strange belief or ideas or is paranoid we should claim it isn't the same thing as a contract killing?  Of course it is, the contract killer has a strange belief that it is acceptable for them to kill for hire.  This person found it was acceptable for other reasons.  But it was still murder and he knew it.  End of story.

88

81 Did you see the story about him belonging to some sort of adult friend finder?

 

Has that been.....confirmed?

Even Ace walked back from what he'd posted about that....said it wasn't confirmed yet.

 

It sort of looks like the guy....but with red hair.

And the police confirmed that he had "red hair and red goatee" when they arrested him today. 

89 Sanity and intelligence are often contrary to each other.

90 I have problems with labeling truly mentally ill people as evil. it is an illness - not a moral failing.

Thank you for your vote!

91  I really don't get this argument. Don't his actions fit the definition of insane?   Some people we would call crazy know exactly what they're doing, and are very smart.  But they do it anyway, consequences be damned. THAT's what I call insane.

Someone does something so monstrous, so outside the norm, and people go to lengths to say he's not insane, just evil. Why? What does that even mean? How is such a person necessarily not insane?

It's not the same as wartime situations. People who pull the triggers are following orders. People who give the orders don't get their hands dirty, so to speak. It can be rationalized. It's weird and pathetic, admittedly, but still different from someone who conceives and executes a diabolical act.

92 #71: You're thinking of Ronald McDonald. Don't feel bad; it's an easy mistake to make.

93 OT  BBCA is showing the 1981 Clash of the Titans.

94 Posted by: Deanna at July 21, 2012 12:07 AM (oR6yJ)

THAT!!

95 In the years following 9-11, rampage killings virtually ceased. I always found that period of calm to be an interesting sociological phenomenon.

96

<i>A yahoo search of "ledger joker.../</i>

Try a Google search like a normal person.

97 As an intrepid investigative journalist OB fritz so astutely observes;

"...the acts of someone who is very methodical..."

this deranged shooter is obviously a religious zealot.

98 Killing is one thing, murder is something else which requires a certain mental state. I've talked to people who were paranoid schiz, and they were scared to death that someone was coming to kill them. One guy was crying and begging me to help him. Can you imagine how awful a state that must be?

99 I really don't get this argument. Don't his actions fit the definition of insane? Some people we would call crazy know exactly what they're doing, and are very smart. But they do it anyway, consequences be damned. THAT's what I call insane.

Posted by: Cornfed at July 21, 2012 12:12 AM.  Then when is murder not the act of an insane person?   

100
Someone does something so monstrous, so outside the norm, and people go
to lengths to say he's not insane, just evil. Why? What does that even mean? How is such a person necessarily not insane?
***
What does insane even mean?

Mao killed 100M people to try and instill socialism of a particular variant. He did it in a manner that left him one of most powerful men on earth and completely safe.

Was he evil? Obviously. Was he insane? I'd say no. He used his own skills and opportunities to their fullest in the pursuit of his goals.

Based on the Joker killer's implementation the issue would appear to be a lack of morality, not sanity.

101 In the years following 9-11, rampage killings virtually ceased.
***
I would guess having the media complex focused on the evils of murder, as opposed to excusing it in many circumstances as is their normal mode, has a powerful effect on those who don't have much of a moral compass.

102 >>>I really don't get this argument. Don't his actions fit the definition of insane? At this point there is insufficient info to make that determination. Again, insanity has a specific legal definition. It is whether you know the difference between right and wrong at the time of the killings.

103 Redd, I'm pretty sure his victims and their families do not draw that fine line . . .

104 He went inside the theater. Sat in the first row. Propped open the side door. And then returned to his car.

There were any number of opportunities for him to stop what he was doing, but he had a plan, and intended to carry it out.

He's a neuroscientist. He knows how the brain works. He will try to use that information to trick others into believing whatever he wants them to believe.

What sane person would calmly wait for police to arrive and arrest me?

or

If I wanted to hurt the police I would never have warned them about my apartment.

He may prove too clever by half.

105 I wish people would stop making up their own definitions for insanity. What you define as insane or not is irrelevant to real life and what will happen to Holmes. My guess is that it is a a toss up. Again, Luke Helder looked normal and managed to manufacture and deliver all those bombs. Yet, they say he is crazy as a loon.

106 Well, there is the legal definition of insanity and the medical definition. The legal definition is much stricter. Lots of people with serious mental illness would not be declared insane legally. Carrying out a complex plan makes it very hard to be declared legally insane.

107
If I wanted to hurt the police I would never have warned them about my apartment.

He may prove too clever by half.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 21, 2012 12:25 AM (piMMO)

I just wish someone in that theater had been armed and had smoked his sorry ass and saved the world in general, and Colorado in particular, a whole lot of expensive trouble.  I don't give a rat's ass if you are insane or not, you start killing people, it's wrong, period, and you need to be put down like a rabid dog.

108 >>>>Carrying out a complex plan makes it very hard to be declared legally insane. Possibly. But let me say for the 5th or 6th time: Luke Holder.

109

Normal people do not try to live out a movie. Obviously he is abnormal. This guy may not be clinically insane but  he is pure evil.   A lot of people do not wish to believe that evil exists so they search for a more mundane reason for the massacre.  "hey, this guy is crazy as a shithouse rat!"  Maybe he is and maybe he is not but one thing is for sure..... evil went on the rampage last night.

Reporter: So, ya like the killings, huh?
Mike Teevee: What do you think life's all about?

 

 

110 Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that someone is on here rolling excuses for this mass murderer?  Who the fuck cares about his issues?  When I am done shedding tears and sending up prayers for the people he murdered and their families, maybe I will give a shit.  Although, honestly?  Probably not.

111

Let's just say that you will see pics of the Heath Ledger Joker with red and green hair. From the official movie poster, the hair is red with a visible slight green tint in spots (on the sides of his head).

Anyway, the point is silly with all the red haired pics out there.

112 Personally, I think the fact that he was wearing protective gear, booby trapped his apt, had all those weapons, tear gas, etc., is indicative of consciousness of guilt, and is evidence that he is sane. But again, who knows at this point.

113

Peaches,

No hon...you're not the only one.

I am having to sit on my hands.

114 When I am done shedding tears and sending up prayers for the people he murdered and their families, maybe I will give a shit. Although, honestly? Probably not.

Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 12:32 AM (kpCLl)

I read a paper  a long time ago that said we look for the insanity in others as an excuse because we are afraid to admit that even we might do something horrible.

115 Peaches: "In order to defeat the bug, you have to understand the bug" -- Starship Troopers

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we should drop by the killer's house with red heart balloons and offer him a hug. We're more thinking about how to stop these enormities from happening in the first place.

116 Sane, insane, I don't give a shit.  I just wish someone in that theater had been carrying and taken that fucker out.  So much cleaner, in every way, and probably would have saved some lives.  I listened, this evening, to some of the comments from the people who were in there and it brought me to tears.  Nobody, regardless of the "reason," should ever be able to do this thing to anyone. 

117 We're more thinking about how to stop these enormities from happening in the first place.
***
Guaranteed execution for Murder 1, and the official striking of all your information from any records?

118 I just wish someone in that theater had been armed and had smoked his sorry ass and saved the world in general, and Colorado in particular, a whole lot of expensive trouble. I don't give a rat's ass if you are insane or not, you start killing people, it's wrong, period, and you need to be put down like a rabid dog.

****

Unfortunately, the bastard didn't leave a square inch of exposed flesh. However, a .40 to the chest might still have take him off his feet.

119 No appeals, no jailhouse lawyering, no mercy, no quarter.  Smite them and let God sort it out. 

120 A headshot would not have worked?

121 He's a neuroscientist. He knows how the brain works. He will try to use that information to trick others into believing whatever he wants them to believe.

Not quite the same...he knows about neurotransmitters like acetylcholine and shit like that, but that doesn't make him 'tricky'.  That's like saying someone can drive a car like Steve McQueen because they are a mechanic.

122 No one is making excuses. The topic is whether he is insane or not. Since this will be the issue when he goes to court, clicking your heels together and wishing it isn't so, ain't gonna work. As to executing him - the chances that Colorado will execute anyone is pretty slim.

123 Nobody, regardless of the "reason," should ever be able to do this thing to anyone.

Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 12:39 AM (kpCLl)

=========================================================

========================================================= 

Exactly.  As I said, murder is murder. 

124

Yeah, well.

I think that treating mass murders like they're Rock Stars....is probably a bad idea.

Unless you want more of them.

Mass murders, that is.

125 124....*mass murder-ers, that is

126 I suppose on the ONT I was suggesting that his parents should have married him off at the age of 17... reading about psychotic breaks in men that hit in the early 20s... well, I'll just say that wasn't one of my wiser posts.

If nothing else, in spree killings like this, wife and kiddies are usually the first to die.

I'm still casting about for ways to stop this shit before it starts, though. Just promising them that they're going to hang (18-1 and Peaches) - that deterrent was around in the time of Jack the Ripper, and there were still murderers in those days

127 When I first heard about it I thought he was just insane, as I'm sure most people did simply because its hard to understand doing something like this.

But the more I hear about this guy, the more I'm reminded of a more evil and less remorseful Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment. It's arrogance, self delusion, and just plain evil that leads to this kind of attitude I think.

128 wheatie, like you said, sittin' on my hands, and making myself crazy isn't gonna make one bit of difference . . . . all we can do, now, is offer up our prayers for the people whose lives were irretrievably broken today.  I just feel that it's not enough, even though it's all we can do.  I cannot imagine, in my worst nightmares, what these folks are going through.

129 A headshot would not have worked?


****

He even wore a helmet.

130 If insanity is the "real reason" behind heinous and depraved acts, then that would mean that all Uber-Villains shown in Batman and other SuperHero movies are insane, and not evil....right?

If that's so, then why do we cheer when these poor misguided souls are blown to smithereens or had their guts ripped out in the last reel?  

Or....why didn't we just go all sensitive and lament Osama's death?  After all, only an insane person would do what he did, even in the name of jihad.....right?

Wasn't he to be pitied rather than shot?

Hang'im high, I say.  

131 124
Yeah, well.
I think that treating mass murders like they're Rock Stars....is probably a bad idea.
Unless you want more of them.
Mass murders, that is.

Posted by: wheatie at July 21, 2012 12:43 AM (MbB0O)

I keep reminding my lib acquaintances of how collectivist societies devolve into murder and mayhem...Stalin, Mao, Che, Pol Pot, Castro...these are only some of the monsters socialist ideology has produced.  Since the only history they don't ignore is that which they invent, it does little good.

132 Hang'im high, I say.

Posted by: Jim Sonweed at July 21, 2012 12:51 AM (fBsx6)

Hitler was, by all accounts, insane.  That is no comfort to 6 million Jews and gypsies and whoever else, nor to the loved ones they left behind.  It's like Confucius said, you step on the bug in sport, but the bug dies in earnest.  Or words to that effect.

133 He's a sociopath.  Not insane at all.  I wonder if he tortured small animals as a child.

134 I couldn't make it through C&P, knew the ending. 

Evil shows no remorse.  Evil watches while the world burns.  Evil causes pain and suffering.  Evil is a coward. Evil cannot be understood.  Evil exists. 

135 115 Peaches: "In order to defeat the bug, you have to understand the bug" -- Starship Troopers

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we should drop by the killer's house with red heart balloons and offer him a hug. We're more thinking about how to stop these enormities from happening in the first place.

***********

Well, yes.  But "thinking how to stop these enormities from happening" leads some to believe that all of us must give up our right to defend ourselves, including defending ourselves from people like Holmes, by being forcibly disarmed.

Not happening, at least not in the USA.

136 Hitler went to great lengths to hide his crimes, i.e., he exhibited consciousness of guilt, which is evidence that he was not insane.

137 Unfortunately, the bastard didn't leave a square inch of exposed flesh. However, a .40 to the chest might still have take him off his feet. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 21, 2012 12:40 AM (piMMO) Look at the stats at how many bullet it takes to inflict a casualty in real wars. Having someone firing back breaks your concentration, even if they miss. And making excuses for this guy is pretty vile.

138 Hitler was, by all accounts, insane. That is no comfort to 6 million Jews and gypsies and whoever else, nor to the loved ones they left behind. It's like Confucius said, you step on the bug in sport, but the bug dies in earnest. Or words to that effect. Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 12:53 AM (kpCLl) I haven't heard anyone say he was insane. And he was not.

139 Look at the stats at how many bullet it takes to inflict a casualty in real wars. Having someone firing back breaks your concentration, even if they miss.

And making excuses for this guy is pretty vile.


****

What excuse have I made for him?

140 Creepy that one of Americas most prolific and sickest serial killers (19th c.). was also Holmes. Dr. H.H. Holmes. Pure evil just like this one. Insanity holds no water for me in the these cases of cold blooded murder. Would you try psychotherapy on a rabid dog, or just kill it? The root of the impulse to kill in this case is moot.

141 Was it in LA that there was a shootout in which two dudes with automatic rifles and body armor pretty much couldn't be stopped by the police until someone finally got a rifle and/or a headshot?  They each got shot multiple times IIRC. 

142 I think its basically a foregone conclusion that the Westboro creeps are going to protest at these funerals.  They need a beat down if they do.

143 I know it isn't really "rational" but I have been near panic since my son announced that he wants to go see this movie today. He is 17 and just back from an ROTC thing, so he hadn't heard about this.  Of course, in his patented, perfectly rational, patient and sensible teenage way, he explained that I am being paranoid.  I cannot imagine what these folks in Colorado are going thru and I simply can't wrap my mind around the ones who took their small children to the theatre at midnight.

144 What excuse have I made for him? Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 21, 2012 12:57 AM (piMMO) That was more of a general comment, which probably should not have been appended to your post. Sorry.

145 Well, okay, if Hitler wasn't insane, then sorry I brought it up.  But, as far as this guy?  He was HAVING FUN!  And he will continue to HAVE FUN for the rest of his long, hugely expensive (to other people) life.  He is HAVING FUN.  That is wrong.

146 North Hollywood Shoot Out of 1997. I think one got shot in the neck.

147 That was more of a general comment, which probably should not have been appended to your post. Sorry.


****

No problem And I agree that any attempts to excuse the bastard are vile, indeed.

148 Was it in LA that there was a shootout in which two dudes with automatic rifles and body armor pretty much couldn't be stopped by the police until someone finally got a rifle and/or a headshot? They each got shot multiple times IIRC. Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2012 12:58 AM (PWwbk) Yeah that was in LA. Probably the answer to that is just have the cops have a large calibre air cannon to knock the suckers over, then put a slug in the ear hole. Its what Archers tended to do to the knights if they unhorsed them.

149 Yup, NoHo.  Saw it on the teevee.  Horrific.  I'm sure they had some sorry-ass excuses for their behavior too, but the fact remains that people are responsible for their behavior.  We live in an age of excuses.  Makes me wanna spit on my own floor.

150 I'd bet more than a few cop cars have a .308 or a 30-06 in the trunk now. 

151

Posted by: Madamemayhem at July 21, 2012 12:58 AM (iRgZG)

 

That would give me the willies, too.

But it's hard to talk a 17 yr old male out of doing something that they're determined to do.

They think they're bullet proof.

 

If it's any consolation.....the security at theaters is probably going to be intense, after this.

 

152 I know I put some line breaks in there. gah.

153 Well, okay, if Hitler wasn't insane, then sorry I brought it up. But, as far as this guy? He was HAVING FUN! And he will continue to HAVE FUN for the rest of his long, hugely expensive (to other people) life. He is HAVING FUN. That is wrong. Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 01:00 AM (kpCLl) The punk knew he would have no opposition, so he was free to hike up the body count. He knew the cops would spare him if he gave up at once. And now the celebrity starts. I'd give odds if he thought the first cop might just plug his ass he would never have done it.

154 I'd bet more than a few cop cars have a .308 or a 30-06 in the trunk now. Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2012 01:05 AM (PWwbk) The definitely up-weaponed officially and probably more on the QT. It was embarrassing to have to bust into a gun store to be able to fight back. And dangerous.

155 The boy is goofy as hell but he knows you do not mess with a worried Mommamayhem. If I say "No way in hell are you going to a movie" he may out pout the 6yr old, but he will not go to the movie. He's a good kid.

156
I'd give odds if he thought the first cop might just plug his ass he would never have done it.

Posted by: Oldcat at July 21, 2012 01:07 AM (rzSn3)

After a couple years in prison, he'll wish it ended that way.

157

This has happened before and the motive is probably similar to what I suspect prompted Hinckley and Chapman. The desire to be forever associated with cultural icons. It is likely no coincidence that he chose the screening of a new movie in the franchise to do this, For Hinckley it was "Taxi Driver", not just Jodie Foster or Reagan.  For Chapman it was the Beatles, not just John Lennon. This guy has made himself synonymous with "Batman", not just The Joker.

158 He's a good kid.

Posted by: Madamemayhem at July 21, 2012 01:09 AM (iRgZG)

Probably not unrelated to the fact that he has a great mom . . .

159 After a couple years in prison, he'll wish it ended that way. Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2012 01:09 AM (PWwbk) Nope. He's golden. He won't get into the gen-pop until after the trial, which will probably never come.

160

Madamemayhem,

Tell him you'll get him the full extended DVD as soon as it comes out.

161 This has happened before and the motive is probably similar to what I suspect prompted Hinckley and Chapman. The desire to be forever associated withcultural icons. It is likely no coincidence that he chose the screening of a new movie in the franchise to do this, For Hinckley it was "Taxi Driver", not just Jodie Foster or Reagan. For Chapman it was the Beatles, not just John Lennon. This guy hasmade himselfsynonymous with "Batman", not just The Joker. Posted by: otho at July 21, 2012 01:10 AM (MhaeW) One of the first histories mentioned that a dude set fire to one of the seven wonders of the world (the temple of Diana, iirc) "so that his name would live forever". The historian followed with "I know his name, but will not write it". And his name is unknown forever.

162 The historian followed with "I know his name, but will not write it". And his name is unknown forever.

This was, obviously, before the lame stream media came about. 

163 This was, obviously, before the lame stream media came about. Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 01:14 AM (kpCLl) Now it is the victims that the will not write about.

164 otho that is an interesting theory. This twistoid will always be associated with this movie. He has made a name for himself.

165 it's us or them

166 159 After a couple years in prison, he'll wish it ended that way.
Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2012 01:09 AM (PWwbk)

Nope. He's golden. He won't get into the gen-pop until after the trial, which will probably never come.

Posted by: Oldcat at July 21, 2012 01:11 AM (rzSn3)

Well, he's still going there...I have a feeling that he'll be sentenced before the end of the year.  Colorado has the death penalty, but we'll have to see if the prosecution goes for it.

167 here we go!

168 Oldcat- yeah it's an old move. As you point out, it doesn't always work. "Forever" is a long time. But, for the purpose of pop culture association, he'll get his way. At least for awhile.

169 no, Oldcat is right, they will treat this fucker like a rock star . . . he will be safer in custody than he ever was on the street.  {refraining from spitting on my own floor, again}

170 Well, he's still going there...I have a feeling that he'll be sentenced before the end of the year. Colorado has the death penalty, but we'll have to see if the prosecution goes for it. Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2012 01:16 AM (PWwbk) Maybe they should do the "Cut rate death Penalty" and just put him in the courtyard and start looking out the other ways. Its how Wisconsin got Dalhmer.

171

Probably not unrelated to the fact that he has a great mom . . .
 Peaches at July 21, 2012 01:10 AM (kpCLl)

Thank you darlin'.  I'd give you a wink but I have no idea how to do those cute little smileys.

172 #171: There's a guide here... http://smilies.mee.nu/

173 I think it would be semicolon then close paren...

174 Thanks folks. I am outta here for the night. or is it morning? whatever it is Imma haulin my ass to bed. Nighty night all.

175 no, Oldcat is right, they will treat this fucker like a rock star . . . he will be safer in custody than he ever was on the street. {refraining from spitting on my own floor, again}

Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 01:18 AM

==========================================================

People glorify anything and want to be close to something famous or infamous.  Remember all those people who bought John Wayne Gacey's paintings?  Or the women who write to these slimes in prison?   Or the people who have made Manson a cult figure?  Or all those Che tee shirts you see?  It's all disgusting.

176 Yeah, me, too.  'Night, all!  Sweet dreams and may God bless and keep us all.

177 Piers Morgan ‏@piersmorgan

More Americans will buy guns after this, to defend themselves, and so the dangerous spiral descends. When/how does it stop?

178 Peaches-  a "rockstar" is right. He knew what he was doing. There have been plenty of mass murderers and serial killers, with relatively high body counts, that most would never have heard of. But this guy knows what it takes to join the ranks of the famous.

179 Holmes's neck did not snap immediately; he instead died slowly, twitching over 15 minutes before being pronounced dead 20 minutes after the trap had been sprung
***
I'm betting that his neck did not snap was not accidental.

180 ore Americans will buy guns after this, to defend themselves, and so the dangerous spiral descends. When/how does it stop? Posted by: Peerz Morgunz -- more insane than you at July 21, 2012 01:31 AM (0It32) Of course, Peerz has that gated community or the condo in the city with 24 hour guards and a hot like to the PD.

181 How famous are Hinkley and Chapman these days? I bet most kids would not even recognize the names.

182 One of the first histories mentioned that a dude set fire to one of the seven wonders of the world (the temple of Diana, iirc) "so that his name would live forever".
***
Temple of Artemis specifically...and the local authorities weren't quite able to extinguish his name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herostratus

183 Posted by: Oldcat at July 21, 2012 01:35 AM (rzSn3)

Americans are so crazy, I lay on the floor of my limo and shake all the way to CNN.

184 120 A headshot would not have worked?

Posted by: Peaches at July 21, 2012 12:42 AM (kpCLl)

That... is really, really hard. Seriously, to be able to reliably make a headshot in a real gunfight takes a hell of a lot of training. I doubt even most gun nuts can do it.

185 ABC News?  That's not a real news organization.  I say we pull their FCC license.

186
Maybe they should do the "Cut rate death Penalty" and just put him in the courtyard and start looking out the other ways. Its how Wisconsin got Dalhmer.

Before we got the death penalty reinstated Wisconsin had two justice systems.  The one that would sentence you to life in prison and general population to make sure it was a short stay.

187 Peaches, are you still here?

188 Oh, he's crazy alright. There is no doubt about that. Now whether he is crazy like a fox or just crazy-crazy is the question. This crazy boy is brain smart. He knows the brain. He knows what goes on, the chemistry, the whole show, so he may very well have  been in fox mode from the beginning. His defense will be the good ol' "gee, I was crazy" defense. For which, for lack of  a better option (such as multiple dippings in bubbling oil), we should promptly hang his crazy ass. Very promptly.

189 My hypothesis re the tip off on the apartment is that it wasn't a tip off at all. He's a sociopath and was probably disconcerted by an unexpected amount of police response at the theater. I expect he said something like "Didn't my apartment bomb go off?" He may have even asked about how well it worked.

190 141 Was it in LA that there was a shootout in which two dudes with automatic rifles and body armor pretty much couldn't be stopped by the police until someone finally got a rifle and/or a headshot? They each got shot multiple times IIRC. Posted by: model_1066 at July 21, 2012 12:58 AM (PWwbk) Check out 44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shoot-Out (2003) According to the accounts of the officers and recreated in the movie, one of the gunmen killed himself and the other was only stopped when one of the officers shot him in the foot and dropped him. He later bled to death on the scene.

191

189 "My hypothesis re the tip off on the apartment ...."

That really does seem reasonable. $1 says you are right.

 I am already practicing forgetting his name but I feel so badly for his parents and his sister. Guy should just burn in hell for doing this  to his family,  if there isn't reason enough already. They have to carry his cross now. So sad.

 

192

I was dismissive at first, but have changed my mind and decided it makes for an interesting discussion. At this point, I'm thinking it's really just a matter of semantics - just what is meant by the term "insane"?

 

I can make one relevant observation, however. The comparison to the "real" Joker is invalid. "Why?", you might ask. Simple. The "real" Joker is not a real person! The assessment "Some men just want to watch the world burn" is what you call a "plot device". The author can't think of any reasonable explanation for why this character would do what he does, realizes the audience might be the same way, and throws that non-explanation at you in very poetic way (in the the exact same way that Obama fools the public, I might add).

 

Your implied explanation is basically supernatural: "He's just evil". Why don't you just go ahead and say that one day the Devil simply swooped on into his soul, and possessed him?

 

No, something chemical or emotional (or both) went terribly wrong with his mind, which was probably a lot more troubled for a lot longer than anyone has found out about so far. Serious mental illness often hits people in their late teens, and he was only 24 - not too much older.

 

As to the other acts of insanity you mention, throughout history, perhaps it says something about the human condition that those are not considered as "simply crazy" because their pertpetrators at least had some short-sighted selfish aim - to seize power, plus they hoped to get away with it. (Most of their sidekicks were terrorized into doing their bidding, BTW.) This guy only managed to kill a few random people for no other reason than perhaps to feel power over them for a few fleeting moments (or some other similar TBD reason).

 

193 TNT played The Dark Knight tonight and The Jokers hair was green.   Jack Nicholaus's hair was green in the '89 Batman.  

So if this murdering asshole's hair was truly red, he got it wrong going for the Joker.

194 Strange, I always think of Harold Lauder when I see Keith Olbermann.

195 >>Normal people do not try to live out a movie.

There's too many women who think their life should resemble a rom-com.  But that's a whole different insanity.

196

1) As to the idea of someone in the audience being armed and taking him down, there are many problems with that. First of all, most witnesses described a situation where they hit deck, and hardly even caught a glimpse of the bastard. Second, it was dark. Third, there was tear gas. The psycho had a gas mask, but nobody else did. Fourth, from his outfit, you might have been able to tell that he had some sort of protection. If you started shooting at him, wouldn't that make YOU a target?

 

2) As to the "why?", one possible theory that comes to mind is NPD - narcissistic personality disorder. This guy had been "at the top of his class" - which is to say "given all the adulation he felt he was due" all the way up until recently. Something had gone horribly wrong with his schooling (nobody has said what yet), and suddenly he wasn't being given a steady stream of accolades anymore.

 

When people with NPD feel that they have not recieved the praise they deserve, what inevitably results is something called "narcissistic rage" - they lash out, making a big scene. This horrific stunt may have been his way of seizing the center of attention back - by force - while showing off his genius (again). Maybe he surrendered at the end, and told about the booby traps, at the end because after he did it, it didn't provide him with what he craving the way he thought it would.

 

Obama has the worst and most obvious case of NPD I can imagine (Greek columns? REALLY? - It went on and on from there.) I really worry about what sort fit of of narcissistic rage he'll throw if he's not re-elected. The guy has his finger on the button and stuff! Clinton pardoned a few hundred allies, and his gang stole the W's on the word processors, but he was "bush league" in the NPD department, compared to Obama, and it was his sidekick (Gore) who lost out, not him.

197 Harold Lauder was a dick, but he ultimately did what he did because Randall Flagg bribed him with constant sex with Nadine. Once he did his deed, Flagg killed him.

198 I don't believe he was trying to live out a movie. He wanted to commit mass murder and chose this film to grab headlines, because it was already politicized. He was highly political and may have had an obsession not with the Joker but with somebody else who stood in for an absent father. I have heard he was an Obama supporter, and that would explain a lot of the disinformation being disseminated. Someone pointed out the McD killing. He worked there to work up his nerve and make money without becoming too attached to his job, friends and the normal things that stabilize and add value to our lives. He wanted a soulless corporate job where people were treated like animals, so he could rationalize what he planned on doing. This wasn't just acting out a fantasy. It was a bad pun on "making a killing." He sees corporations as the real villains, and Ronald McDonald and the Joker are just clowns in the end. His actions were insane, but they were premeditated and carried out meticulously. This was political terrorism, and if the event is treated like a matter of national security, he should be tried as an enemy of the state.

199 Wasn't Van Gogh psychotic? Yet he is considered a genius, in a different way than Holmes is (artistic vs academic). As for the joker, he's a fictional character. Not sure there's a real world corollary that he fits - maybe Stalin or Hitler would be the closest.

200

I'm so weary of trying to figure out why these fuckers do what they do.  And the hue and cry of the collective only eggs on the next sociopath who wants to be immortalized.

 

So sad for the families of the victims. No parent should have to wonder if their kids are going to survive a trip to the <i>movies.</i>

 

And my husband and I are going to see it today.  We weren't planning to, but we figured, hey, might as well go before they get the armed guards and metal detectors in place and we have to strip down and empty our pockets.  Won't be able to sneak in cheap Milk Duds anymore.

201 CIA BLACK OPS COVER UP!!!!!

Wait.  That sounds insane, doesn't it?

Then, so does shipping guns to Mexican drug dealers in order to have an excuse to clamp down on American gun owners.  And with the UN Small Arms Treaty on the table right now.........

202 >>There's too many women who think their life should resemble a rom-com.

And to many men who think THEIR lives should resemble pr0n

203 >>>Posted by: Prothonotary Warbler at July 21, 2012 01:20 AM (3yCFy)

You & me gonna have a little discussion about turf.

204 The negative color of red is green the this clown is the negative joker. Oh man, we are going to have to go into the negative universe to figure this guy out. Screw that, he was apprehended 'red handed' so this should be a swift capital case. Lets get done already.

205 Zero Content Thread Recommendation: http://www.zmescience.com/?p=13480

206 He should've just masturbated more.

207 >>and if the event is treated like a matter of national security, he should be tried as an enemy of the state.

Shit, we don't even treat the people who leak classified military information to the NYT as enemies of the state.

208 58 Where did a neuroscientist flipping burgers come up with a) the money for all the hardware he was sporting or b)the expertise to build the bombs at his apartment?

He gots his EBT I arranged for him to get.

209 Pffft. All these people wanting to call it evil. For there to be evil there has to be a God. We all no no super smaht people think there is a God. Me, I call it evil. And Satan is laughing with delight. His greatest lie? Convincing people he doesn't exist.

210 Holmes is what you get when the classical definition of evil becomes old fashioned.  Gotta figure out why he committed such a heinous act, and insane becomes the definition of choice once morality is excluded.  Of course, if he had been a member of the Tea Party...

211 You know what I didn't see yesterday, in the rush to blame conservatives?  Calls for blood donations; I'm sure those who weren't DOA needed a few pints. I know a lot of communities run short in the summer, Denver area must have been full up.

Huh.

212 >>a) the money for all the hardware he was sporting

Student loans. You can borrow more than you need for tuition/fees/books, and if you've got parents or grandparents paying for some of that stuff, it's just play money.  And credit cards, college students get tons of applications.

213 The line between "sane" and "insane" isn't a clear one, and appears to be quite flexible depending on external environment and well as internal environment.  It also is highly culture related.

The most reasonable metric I can see would be something like - is this individual's behavior within "x" standard deviations from the norm of the society they're operating in, where "x" is probably a number like 3 or 4.

ex. Take an Eskimo from 500 years ago and show them women wearing high heels today.  They'd be forced to conclude the women were insane for voluntarily wearing such a torture device that restricted mobility.

214 >>Take an Eskimo from 500 years ago and show them women wearing high heels today. They'd be forced to conclude the women were insane for voluntarily wearing such a torture device that restricted mobility.

Not if she was a redhead in an emerald green teddy.  I'd understand that shit right now, brother.

215 Oh look - now two officials in the Obama administration are openly allowing for the possibility that Saddam shipped his WMD to Syria in the run up to the invasion.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/19/syria-s-next-act.html

I wonder how the Democrats are gonna square that circle if we do find some shit in Syria with Iraqi markings on it or of known Iraqi design.  Is there a runway on the planet long enough to walk that cat back?

216 I wonder if he thought he would get a rush from mass murder and didn't, which is why he suddenly stopped and abandoned the plan.

217 I wonder how the Democrats are gonna square that circle if we do find some shit in Syria with Iraqi markings on it or of known Iraqi design. Is there a runway on the planet long enough to walk that cat back? Posted by: @PurpAv at July 21, 2012 07:45 AM (4R/AX) Won't here jack shit about it on TV... that's guaranteed. But we already knew that the Dems were playing the "No WMD" card to shit on Bush and take over all three branches so they could ransack the country to the tune of a few trillion. It's the biggest heist in human history. The only people that will know about it are the people 100 or so years from now, if we still have a civilized, free, and knowledgeable society then.

218 >>is this individual's behavior within "x" standard deviations from the norm of the society they're operating in, where "x" is probably a number like 3 or 4.

Shit.  The town I grew up in would have had me permanently put away by age 11.  "This girl is READING, and the book wasn't assigned by a licensed teacher!  FREAK!"

219 Posted by: nickless at July 21, 2012 07:51 AM (MMC8r) I'm going w/ planned to commit suicide afterwards but couldn't pull it off.

220 >>I wonder how the Democrats are gonna square that circle if we do find some shit in Syria with Iraqi markings on it or of known Iraqi design. I believe any arm-chair intelligence analyst could figure out that this is where Sadam's WMD's were sent.

221 a) How much taxpayer money has to be spent to prosecute a multiple murderer with a gazillion witnesses and put him to death?

b) Why is the media so in love with this story, how many black on black murders occurred the same night in Chicago, Detroit and Oakland that won't reach the light of day?

c) How many documents is Obama dumping while the news is busy trying to get their ratings off of dead bodies and speculation?

222 Posted by: Smarty at July 21, 2012 08:19 AM (u5y7Y) Yes...

223 Rush Limbaugh was the first person to politicize the movie. Holmes, obviously, took Limbaugh's remarks seriously enough to act upon them. So the real culprit, the real root cause of the shootings were the words of Rush Limbaugh.

224 I hate when the media or perhaps a neighbor or someone you talk to asks "what could we have done to prevent this?". Why can't it ever just be the math of 300 million people living together in this country and it falls into the "shit happens" category?

225 Posted by: Hawker Flyer at July 21, 2012 08:23 AM (12hE2) Cause dumbasses like to talk about shit they know nothing about?

226 223

They did the same thing with the 'Tinky-winky Gay teletubby' story years ago.

Limbaugh covered other people's statements, then got them credited to him as lunacy when they turned out to be actually happening.

I remember him covering the teletubby story about six weeks before Jerry Falwell got raked over for 'insanely' claiming Tinky-Winky was a gay archetype-- even though the story originated with a gay activist.

227 One can hide insanity just like one can hide evil.  Those films of Hitler petting dogs?  He's not choking them to death.  He's evil but he doesn't act evil all the time.  Same with this vermin in Colorado.  He hid his insanity.  He thought he was the Joker.  Insane.  And  evil.  You can be both,  ya know.  It's not an "either or" situation.  And the vermin in Colorado should be put to death for his crimes - even if he is found to be insane.

228

One of our family members is afflicted with a serious mental illness. Due to our intimate exposure to that condition, I have spent considerable time volunteering in different capacities that expose me to that population. The James Holmes crime doesn't fit the pattern of the typical schizophrenia snap-out. The usual victims of violence perpetrated by the mentally ill are those closest: family members. When they take their "issues" out into the world, it's normally a Jared Loughner or Hinckley scenario.  James Holmes was overly prepared. His actions fit more in the Evil Genius category, like Ted Kaczynski.

229 I am not a Scientologist, but Ive seen too many people throw their lives away on SSRIs. Leave their families, kill themselves, hurt others, steal from their jobs, just plain quit their jobs, etc. etc. Everything suddenly seems "like a good idea at the time"

However, so far at least, there is no indication that Holmes was ever overweight, pimply, unpopular and teased/rejected by his peers (as was Harold) -- most indications appear to be to the contrary.

Round up all the people who are or have been fat, pimply faced, unpopular friendless losers who take SSRIs and put them into camps for our and their safety.  It's the only way.

SSRIs have never helped anyone have a better life or kept suicidal people from pulling the plug. And fat, pimply faced people make us uncomfortable.

Blah blah genetics and all that sort of nonsense.

And what's wrong with Scientology?  We're mostly good looking (except for that fat retard
John Travolta), successful people who just want to help fight against  those who would have you believe that something like inhibiting serotonin uptake fixes anything. And Xenu.

I'd shoot Holmes like Maverick and Goose on a pilot of an oddly unspecified nationality.

Also,  I'd audit Kerstie Allie like Al Capone's tax returns. (Except when she plays the role of  Fat Kerstie Just....eww).

TC

230 TMZ has some recent pictures of him with orange hair.

Weird.

231 "Rush Limbaugh was the first person to politicize the movie. "
Absolutely 100% completely and stupidly false.

232 People who kill for mere cash or amusement are by definition still insane ... but they still should be punished for their acts.

233 "One can only speculate if enhanced security measures could have prevented the Colorado shooting." -- Andrew Lu, Reuters

"enhanced security measures"

234 >>>People who kill for mere cash or amusement are by definition still insane ... but they still should be punished for their acts. Where do you people get this shit? Neither under a medical nor a legal definition, they are not insane.

235 To no one in particular (nd no, I am not  loner): I have to admit the mass shootings that truly shocked me were the (San Ysidro, 1984) McDonald's, (Killeen TX 1991) Luby's and Columbine.

236 He may be insane but he is also smart.  The theater chain that runs that theater has a "gun free" policy. They do not allow guns on the premises. As Holmes did not want to be killed or wounded, he wore body armour, picked a "gun free" kill site and meekly surrendered to the first law enforcement person he encountered. The theater management bears equal responsibility for the incident by publicizing their "gun free" policy.  They were telling James Holmes that he could go kill and wound many people without risk.

237 Redd: So then ... are people who kill for cash or to get their jollies somehow sane?

The point flew right over your head like a big fat bird, but you still missed it. People who habitually strike the first blow against others are not right in the head. Period.

Lack of sanity should NEVER be an excuse to avoid punishment for evil actions.

238 the Joker (at least in "The Dark Knight") was definitely not insane -- he just was willing to operate well outside the norms of civilized society to achieve his ends Indeed. Just because a given act makes no sense to you or I does not mean that it is insane, as it may make perfect sense to the perpetrator.

239 I'm going w/ planned to commit suicide afterwards but couldn't pull it off. Posted by: cajun carrot at July 21, 2012 08:08 AM (UZQM Conspiracy Theory with Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts. He thought he would escape and destroy evidence.

240 First part of solving the reason behind this evil is getting him to release his grades and college transcripts.

241 Many people seem unable to grasp the fact that rational human beings are capable of deliberate evil.  I personally believe that this is the unintended consequence of children being shielded from knowledge of just how ugly the world can be.  Those children grow up and become adults unable to grasp the nature of evil.  They may be happier on a day to day basis because of this, but they are not wiser.

242

It's a whizbang thing. Some(a lot?) people cannot tolerate any failure, even mild failure. They are awesome when stuff is cool, rocknroll, upnup and the praises are on time. But the minute a tough spot shows up they show their true colours.

Whizbangs make perfect POMOs, of any stripe. maybe like holmes.

243 As far as "PhD students can't be insane" goes; I know a student who was accepted into a maths PhD at my university, who then turned out to be crazy and not able to do any maths. He dropped out but spent the next year or so living out of spare rooms in the maths department.

244 Demon possession.

Remember Jeremy Strohmeyer who raped and murdered 7-year old Sherrice Iverson in a casino back in 1997? Strohmeyer was deemed to be very intelligent.  But he was also evil and had given himself over to evil. We meet people like this everyday, and are even related to some of them. Pray that you are protected from them.

245 "Horseshit. And I use that word very deliberately."

I've never used that word deliberately, or at all.

246 Fun question: how does a man receiving unemployment benefits acquire $20,000 worth of military-grade armor and weapons? Further down the rabbit hole: is it just a coincidence the United Nations is voting on / editing its Small Arms Treaty in the next short while?

247 When you say it was only providence that someone did not open Holme's apt door and get killed, are you using that term to mean God was behind that being avoided? If God was so all-loving and watchful of his children, why would he let a monster like Holmes on his rampage with all the resultant death, mayhem, and torment. Please don't use that term "providence" at this time. It makes no sense in the overall picture of what happened, and I am sick of people saying things like "God must have had his reasons? For a 6 year old girl dying and her mother being tormented the rest of her life? Really?

248 As someone who used to work in a private sanitarium, I have a few insights to share on this subject. Although I had little contact with psychotics, I found a lot of the patients to be very intelligent. The old saying "I may be crazy, but I am not stupid" applies. Consider the one thing most of these mass killings have in common: All of the major theater chains are declared "Gun free zones. The same was true for the diner in Lubbock Texas, Virginia Tech., and Columbine. The entire state of California is a gun free zone with respect to carry permits. Even with a valid concealed carry permit, it is a felony if one is caught armed in such a place. Is it a coincidence that these events usually involve places where one would not expect armed resistance? He may have been smart in choosing the place for the attack, but we should all be thankful for the fact that he was a lousy shot and short on tactical knowledge. He went in spraying. If he used deliberately aimed shots, the body count could have been 50-60. Most of the people who engage in these mass murder shooting sprees are deeply psychotic and looking to go down in history. He will spend the next several months watching TV coverage of his crimes in his jail cell and smiling like the Joker he thinks he is.

249 248   Is it a coincidence that these events usually involve places where one would not expect armed resistance?
*
*
Yeah, you never hear of anybody pulling this sort of stunt at a police station, or a gun show.