November 21, 2012
— andy I was going to do this on the weekend, but it looks like there's popular demand, so what the heck.
Here's the overall plan for what this post is going to cover. First, if there's firearms/hunting related news, it'll get featured. Big events like Fast & Furious developments warrant their own posts, obviously, but we'll reference them in the weekly posts as well. This will cross into the political at times, for obvious reasons, but it will always be topical.
Second, I got the idea to make this a regular feature a couple of weeks ago when we were discussing what gun was in the picture on Dave's Veteran's Day post. The prize went to 'andycanuck', who identified it as a 1916 French 37mm gun. I like gun trivia like this, and I know lots of the Moron Horde does as well, so I thought we'd do a featured gun of the week and either do a poll for a visual identification trivia contest or just do a profile of a historical piece.
As this is the inaugural thread, throw out other ideas in the comments. Now, on with the show.
Preserving the Second Amendment
Are you a member of the National Rifle Association, Gun Owners of America or other second amendment-related organization? If not, you should consider it, given that a certain SCOAMF now has "more flexibility" and has already claimed to be running an under the radar campaign for gun control.
Also, there are some very good state second amendment organizations*. I belong to what is arguably the best of them, the Massachusetts Gun Owners Action League. They've been fighting the good fight behind enemy lines.
Marksmanship Award
Cam Edwards, who hosts Cam and Company on NRA News web/satellite radio, is a good Twitter follow, and he regularly links heartwarming stories like this:
Hero of the Day - Pennsylvania: Armed robber killed in Millcreek shooting threatened store clerk - goerie.com/article/201211Â… #NRA (via @goerie)
— Cam and Company (@CamAndCompany) November 21, 2012
Gun of the Week
This one's not unique by any stretch of the imagination, but given the upcoming holiday season and the extreme level of joy felt by any kid who's gotten a the only present that comes in a long, skinny box shaped like that, I present the Ruger 10/22:
With about 6 million of these in circulation and every accessory imaginable available, it's hard to go wrong with one of these. I have 2.
Gun Poll
Guns and hunting-related discussion in the comments.
* Link added. Thanks to 'wizardpc' in the comments.
Posted by: andy at
08:10 AM
| Comments (494)
Post contains 445 words, total size 4 kb.
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 08:12 AM (Q8Pu5)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:13 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:13 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 08:13 AM (Q8Pu5)
Yes, because somehow guns will be the cure for the Moron ADHD, and we'll stay on topic in this thread.
Bless your heart.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:14 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 08:14 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:15 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at November 21, 2012 08:15 AM (71iUa)
Posted by: OregonMuse at November 21, 2012 08:15 AM (9GaPd)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (8y9MW)
Same here.
Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 08:15 AM (da5Wo)
Mini 14 was the first rifle I got. Not as good...
It had potential, the mags were a big letdown. I got it during the ban though, so it was good for the time.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:15 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 08:16 AM (QupBk)
Posted by: OregonMuse at November 21, 2012 12:15 PM (9GaPd)
and that long-slide .45 ..
Posted by: T1 at November 21, 2012 08:16 AM (JJ+PT)
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 08:16 AM (Q8Pu5)
FIFY
Try to stay on topic.
Posted by: Roland THTG at November 21, 2012 08:16 AM (I7O5y)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:16 AM (8y9MW)
Love both, so fire at will. Also open to providing what assistance I can to those considering purchasing a firearm for the first time. It is, and should be, a humbling experience ... all American males assume that they emerge from the womb instantly capable of hitting the X at 50 yards with a .45. With one hand.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:16 AM (GRvW4)
I was taught starting at 3 and seriously at age 5.
Nowadays it depends on the range and your local mores. My son is 12 and I finally don't feel the stares at the range having him along. Use your judgement.
Posted by: Harlekwin15 at November 21, 2012 08:17 AM (LRFds)
@16
I started at about 5 or 6. Highly supervised. I went hunting with my uncle and shot a Model 1894 winchester that belonged to my grandpa. I got a bb gun for my 5th birthday, so I did have fundementals. I was tought to respect firearms, not fear them.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:17 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:16 PM (QupBk)
If you can change a spark plug, you should do alright.
Posted by: T1 at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (JJ+PT)
The statement: "Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor" is never off topic.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (c3tQX)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (icSBv)
Heh. I have one of those too.
It's a great little rifle.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (OZPoa)
Posted by: DC in Towson at November 21, 2012 08:18 AM (Ai+tZ)
Is this the thread where we could, perhaps, discuss the greatly-improved Salmon fishing on the Sacramento River this year?
Those years of closures following the near-extinction seemed to have done what they were intended to do, all of the bitching (myself included) notwithstanding.
Posted by: Gunslinger at November 21, 2012 08:19 AM (4S7hN)
Discovering that out to 50 yards, you end up shooting more accurately with a little $250 .22 than with your $600 bolt action 7mm Mag deer rifle or .357 revolver.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 08:19 AM (SY2Kh)
We really don't need Hector like shit on these posts.
Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 08:19 AM (da5Wo)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 08:19 AM (HDCAA)
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 08:19 AM (0q2P7)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 08:19 AM (HDCAA)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 08:20 AM (pLTLS)
While doing a combat roll. Oh, and the range is 150 yards.
Posted by: fluffy watches movies! at November 21, 2012 08:20 AM (z9HTb)
It's mixed. I'd say the technical answer is "No", but if you're talking about Fast & Furious or gun control, that's pretty hard to avoid.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:20 AM (OZPoa)
Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 08:20 AM (c3tQX)
Amen, I wonder if society keeping the weapon mystical into the mid adolescent stage is part of why shootings are up?
Posted by: Harlekwin15 at November 21, 2012 08:21 AM (LRFds)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 08:21 AM (QupBk)
Posted by: Cottonmouth at November 21, 2012 08:21 AM (9cNt9)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (5Hk3U)
Well the 7mm and .357 are both more accurate, it's just difficult to keep that accuracy beyond three shots. As that's the number of repetitions for your shoulder or hands to figure out that recoil is coming when you start to depress the trigger which will ruin your accuracy.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (0q2P7)
All those farmers that "just ain't making it" now lease their plowed over corn fields and others to hunting clubs now.
I refuse to join a hunting club.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (tVTLU)
Just bought a Beretta Neo .22 to do much of my shooting at the range.
I love being able to buy a box of 500 ammo for 15.00.
I'll still shoot a box of 50 .45 and 9MM which allows me to spend my money of other fun stuff than the 3 or 4 I used to shoot.
Posted by: polynikes at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (m2CN7)
Dirt simple, but I'm pretty mechanically-inclined.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (OZPoa)
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (Q8Pu5)
Thanks, DG.
Of course, I'm pretty sure my daughter is going to be the gun nut. Which is okay with me?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Crashpanic at November 21, 2012 08:22 AM (62b6U)
My son bought his college roommate one as a wedding present and had the shop engrave his and his wife's initials on the barrel and the date of their wedding.
She was not too thrilled. He was.
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (wR+pz)
The range by me lets 8 year olds shoot rifles with parental supervision. I snuck my little guy in when he was 7 1/2.
The range officers were very friendly and were totally on board with heling me teach teach responsible, safe, marksmanship.
Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (icSBv)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: Thewy Sinewed Chap at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (RuUvx)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (HDCAA)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (sGWH5)
And, keep in mind Larry Craig - who STILL sits on the BOD.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (qBLA2)
I love single shot shotguns by NEF. It's a great learning gun for any other type of shotgun, and can be shot very quickly if you regularly practice. I can now load a pump shotgun much quicker because of the 1000 or so rounds I've put through single shot break open shotguns.
My favorite is the NEF tamer 20 gauge. It can even be broken down and carried in a little bag for car travel and hotels. A home defense shotgun away from home.
Posted by: JustLikeDavidHasselhoff at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (71iUa)
Posted by: polynikes at November 21, 2012 08:23 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Crashpanic at November 21, 2012 08:24 AM (62b6U)
Really? Hmm. I have some general machine shoppery skills and a drill press. I don't really have any milling equipment, per se, except a Dremel Tool.
Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (QupBk)
A good set of punches are handy, and some dental picks for finagling springs and small parts into place are good too.
Posted by: Joe Mama at November 21, 2012 08:24 AM (JJ+PT)
@46
I wonder about that. Of course, I went to a gun store the other day and a kid about 6 or 7 was schooling his dad on the SCAR 17 based on his Call of Duty knowledge. I have no idea what effect these hyper realistic FPS are going to have on the next generation.
I wouldn't dare touch a gun at that age without an adult. I didn't have to, they would be happy to show me. All the guns were in a glass cabinet right there in the open, but as a child it wasn't that big a deal to me.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:24 AM (t06LC)
http://www.henryrepeating.com/rifle-pump.cfm
Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 08:24 AM (tf9Ne)
Posted by: ejo at November 21, 2012 08:25 AM (GXvSO)
What a sweet little rifle.
Lately I've customized my SKS, swapped in a .380 barrel for my Makarov, and built a complete AR from the first pin up.
I luvs me my guns. Got dozens.
Posted by: trainer @ Home at November 21, 2012 08:25 AM (1QEkm)
Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 08:25 AM (c3tQX)
Posted by: NativeNH at November 21, 2012 08:25 AM (quo6Y)
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 08:26 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (pLTLS)
Missed that. Ignore previous post. Carry on.
Posted by: Joe Mama at November 21, 2012 08:26 AM (JJ+PT)
If you're not highly skilled, though, go for the crossbow.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:26 AM (8y9MW)
Could put 3 round groups in less than a thumbnail at 100 yards using the original military iron sights. (100 yards was the length of our available range at the time)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 08:26 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Henry at November 21, 2012 08:26 AM (pJpLq)
very much so...
I am wary of it b/c one day they are going to label that "creating a weapon" and demand clamping down on it I suspect.
Posted by: Harlekwin15 at November 21, 2012 08:27 AM (LRFds)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 08:27 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 08:27 AM (HDCAA)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 08:28 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at November 21, 2012 08:28 AM (QupBk)
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:28 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 08:28 AM (OvRHg)
Pros/cons of each?
Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (ZdRSq)
My oldest carries his great-grand dad's 20gauge, my youngest my .410 given to me by my father when I was 9. Me? I carry my Ruger Mark II pistol that my Dad gave me when I was 14 for Christmas.
It's more than hunt, it a tradition. It's family. It's being together with some frost on the ground and nip in the air. It's smelling smoke from a wood stove hanging low in a hollar. It's joking and laughing as we skin 'em out and clean 'em up. It's talking about when we hunts when we were kids.
Then we clean up and get ready to eat a Thanksgiving meal TOGETHER. As a family. About 15-18 of us. Two "kid tables" pushed into two corners. Great grand kids sitting in high chairs. Prayer said before we eat... thanking God for all that we take for granted. His love for us, our country, our health, the beauty of the day, the gift of another, and a large family brought together for a few hours to share a meal that is possible by his blessings.
Tomorrow morning the kids will hop up, all excited, throw their clothes on, complain the truck is cold and have a ball again. For them its just "the squirrel hunt" like every year. It won't be for years, until they have their own kids hunting with them, will they understand how truly great these hunts are. What they are really for. What they really mean. What they really do.
I only wish my Dad was still with us... so he could go along and see the young men his grandsons are becoming.
Posted by: wecross at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (hh+cN)
It's not just that- with a recoil pad and avoiding the heavier 180gr rounds, it's not that bad. With a pistol, I think it's just the lighter weight. With a rifle, I don't know. The barrel on the 7mm does get hot very quickly though.
Now the Ruger SRH in .454 Casull? Different story. Even with a padded glove, you're not going to be shooting very well after 20 rounds of full power loads unless you're built like The Hulk.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (SY2Kh)
Allen, it would not surprise me. My son worked a Philmont Scout Ranch years ago as a shotgun instructor. They had three Ruger over and under red labels, cheapest over and under Ruger makes. He said they shot at LEAST 10,000 rounds through each and never had a misfire or problem. The third gun was a back that was never used.
I have always had good luck with the accuracy of a 10/22, someone said earlier they had a problem. I am guessing user error.
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (wR+pz)
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: Cottonmouth at November 21, 2012 12:21 PM (9cNt9)
I'm not happy about it, but what the NRA has done is make themselves a bipartisan issue. Think about it, although Dems controlled the presidency and congress, we didn't hear so much as a whisper of a new ban. If a party gets in power, one of the first things to do is punish the supporters of the other party. The NRA has somewhat succeeded in turning a large number of Dems to thier cause.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:29 AM (t06LC)
If you are discussing weapons that are over 100 yrs old that came out at the dawn of repeating firearms. Repeating rifles were brand new. In that age, the gun technology became a bigger consideration than the round which at that time rounds had very little variance in performance.
Nowadays a hundred and thirty years later, no significant developments in improving gun technology has been made for decades, good guns are available in all common calibers with a myriad of features; and now round performance varies wildly from guns that still shoot rounds designed over 100 years ago to ultra-mags pushing 3600ft/sec of muzzle velocity with new rounds being introduced all the time. In today's world the round is the bigger decision.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 08:30 AM (0q2P7)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 08:30 AM (HDCAA)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 08:30 AM (sGWH5)
My mostest favoritest gun in my collection is a .22 as well. Winchester Model 61, manufactured in 1939, shoots straight and is a thing of beauty. Love it!
Posted by: BuckIV at November 21, 2012 08:30 AM (gedHR)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 08:30 AM (fWAjv)
ERRRAH Andy. Good thread.
toby:
Why the 80% build? Complete stripped lowers are dirt cheap. I think it was Palmetto selling blemished lowers for $65 or something. Is it a hobby thing, or a don't-want-the-NICS-check thing? Because NICS doesn't know what you buy, just that you were interested in buying something. Further, it's truer than ever: "When it's time to bury your guns to hide them, it's already time to dig them up." It's not going to come to that. Even the engineers of disastrous green energy corporatism are not stupid enough to start chasing anyone suspected of having a firearm. A rifle behind every blade of grass - and who collects them anyway? Mall cops? Because the world's best infantrymen would not view that as a lawful order.
If it's just for the fun of it, enjoy, and sorry I can't provide instruction. But if it's to keep a rifle "off the grid," I wouldn't worry about it. The confiscation will never happen, and follied attempts would end badly.
Now feeding a rifle under unfriendly, rent-seeking assholes is another issue altogether.
rons in general:
Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56? That's my question.
If you say I should spend my precious Washingtons on factory ammo, what's cheap right now? Most of what I've shot is M193/55gr, because it's cheap and I'm a shot-placement-over-bullet-weight kind of guy, but I'm down with M855 as well. I am used to paying under 35 cents a round - last big buy was the IMI case(+) from Wideners, but alas, none in stock in ages. Where should I buy? What's the best deal out there today?
If you say reload, give me a realistic idea of what a boot reloader could do. Based on my math, it should already pay itself off with a $600 investment for a progressive press, initial buys of powder and primer, if I'm saving 15 cents per round. How is it paid off? Well, at 15 cents per round savings, that's 4000 rounds. And I have way more than 4000 pieces of once-fired brass in my basement. I might have twice that. But will the shit drive me crazy? How much time would it realistically take to safely load that many rounds? How much time will I spend de-priming? What else do I have to do to the brass? Blah blah blah. Yes, I know the answers are out there, in a million forums, websites, magazines, and books, but I want YOU to tell me.
Decide my future - buy a factory case or two and never look back, or start reloading? Send your traffic.
Posted by: 0302 at November 21, 2012 08:30 AM (mtyCh)
Dude, I actually teared up a little bit. That was really nice. Seriously.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:31 AM (GRvW4)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 08:31 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (YdQQY)
Agreed. I have a Remington 510 just for that purpose. It shoots short, longs, and long rifle .22, and it is laser precise with crappy bulk ammo. Now I only have to wait a few years for my boy to be old enough to hold it. American traditions.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 08:31 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: Crashpanic at November 21, 2012 08:31 AM (62b6U)
I mean, I'm a virtual novice to shooting (did some with rifles and shotguns in Boy Scouts, and I've shot skeet a couple of times as an adult. Now I've got my Springfield XD9, but I still don't know much "about guns"), and I know there are others here who would like to know who are even further behind the 8-ball than I am.
So some questions:
When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start with?
When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look for?
What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?
People here have pointed out the Hi-Point Carbine as a relatively good, cheap option on the carbine market. I think I know the difference in a carbine and a rifle (primarily length, and therefore accuracy over distance, yes?), but if I were looking for a "Hmm, I may need to hunt, I may also need to survive the zombie apocalypse" weapon, would a rifle or a carbine be preferable?
I'm sure there are other questions, too, but that's a good starting list.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:31 AM (8y9MW)
96:
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Dems, if they're smart, won't get near the issue.
I wrote the NRA on this as far as going against Obama. When he was a U of C professor, Obama told John Lott (the famed gun guy) that:
Obama did not believe that an individual had the right to possess a gun.
How was that not ever brought up? It was a direct fucking quote. There are democrats that would vote for hitler if he was going to let them have their guns and the other guy would take it away.
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 08:31 AM (tVTLU)
Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 08:32 AM (xXhWA)
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 08:32 AM (L8r/r)
Discovering that out to 50 yards, you end up shooting more accurately with a little $250 .22 than with your $600 bolt action 7mm Mag deer rifle or .357 revolver.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (SY2Kh)
True. I have a 22 mag bolt action that gets the same results out to 80+ yards. 22's are underestimated. They're the best for anyone, no matter what age, to learn on. I shake my head when I see a newbie go out and drop serious coin on a hand cannon or elephant gun.
Posted by: tubal at November 21, 2012 08:32 AM (BoE3Z)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at November 21, 2012 08:32 AM (79ueO)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 08:32 AM (fWAjv)
Look long and hard at Dillon. Best warranty in the business and good stuff.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:32 AM (qBLA2)
@90
The AR is all around better. It is modular and easy to work on, has better accuracy, parts are plentiful and cheap, as well as mags. Ergonomics are better, and there are many more variations.
The Ruger has a certain throwback quality to it and can be had a little cheaper. Mags are pretty bad, good ones are expensive.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:33 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: DangerGirl - feeling empty at November 21, 2012 08:33 AM (mQmzV)
I've had one of mine since I was a kid. I forget how old I was when I got it ... call it ~10. It's at my dad's house in GA, and I use it on teh bushytails when I visit. It's 100% factory.
I have a new one here in MA, and I put a Clark trigger kit in it right out of the gate. Not sure if it's changes in the manufacturing process over time or just that the old 10/22 was worn in, but the trigger on the new one was noticeably heavier and rougher. It's probably a blame-the-lawyers thing.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:33 AM (OZPoa)
Pros/cons of each?
You can not go wrong with a mini 14, it is basically a 10/22 in 556. In English it is a M-1 and is pretty damn indestructible. An AR-15 is a little more trouble if you don't keep it clean.
What is the problem? Get both!
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 08:34 AM (wR+pz)
Allen, please start learning with a 22. Learn to sight, aim, trigger pull that way.
Posted by: tubal at November 21, 2012 08:34 AM (BoE3Z)
Posted by: dan in michigan at November 21, 2012 08:34 AM (2yD4G)
simple bow of yew in the hands of one trained to use
Even an 80 lb yew bow in the hands of a dedicated archer, accuracy is difficult to achieve beyond 40 yards.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 08:34 AM (0q2P7)
I currently have two. One I keep bone stock so the SWMBO will use it. The other is my "project gun" and I've already swapped the stock on it to something... a bit weirder. Yep, that's a 10/22 underneath the skin.
Great little guns.
Posted by: Darkmage at November 21, 2012 08:34 AM (F45Zi)
Posted by: Cicero Kid at November 21, 2012 08:35 AM (ITxHU)
Posted by: Mr_Write at November 21, 2012 08:35 AM (CLkAH)
an AR is definately a step up and are endlessly modifiable
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (2CiZb)
With the research I'd been doing, I'd heard there were issues with the earlier models of the Mini (and someone upthread mentioned accuracy issues). My son went with the Bushmaster. I've read some good things about it. What's the moron thought? Are there other manufacturers that I should consider?
Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 08:35 AM (ZdRSq)
@98
From a stripped lower building an AR is incredibly easy. I can do one in about 10 minutes now. Most of my ARs are homerolled.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:35 AM (t06LC)
And what thread like this is complete without a hickok45 video appropriate for the season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPL8M4aWHF8
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 08:35 AM (Kkt/i)
My weird-ass 10/22 can be found here:
http://home.comcast.net/~sirlagsalot/TR/bunting_done.jpg
Posted by: Darkmage at November 21, 2012 08:36 AM (F45Zi)
Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 08:36 AM (OvRHg)
People would have been beat to a pulp in my family for something like that.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 08:36 AM (0q2P7)
RWC:
hahaha. I know, my wife is against guns, she made me buy a gun safe, but the problem for her is that now I have a place to hold a lot more guns so I'm working on filling it up!!!
We hopefully are moving soon, so I can set up some targets and maybe let her try it out.
Posted by: Prescient11 at November 21, 2012 08:36 AM (tVTLU)
Why are there piles and piles of aftermarket goodies?
because they are popular....
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:36 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 08:36 AM (HDCAA)
Posted by: Kinley Ardal at November 21, 2012 08:37 AM (nXb6C)
Hey Andy,
Great new weekly feature. No shit, when Ace mentioned the addition yesterday my first thought was recommending that all morons should pick up a 10/22 (or a couple). Easy to maintain and repair, great (and worthwhile) aftermarket additions, and as with all .22 rimfires, quiet, accurate, cheap, and surprisingly effective.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 08:37 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 08:37 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 08:37 AM (fWAjv)
What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good? Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)
20 feet.
Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 08:37 AM (xXhWA)
Useful for scaring liberals out of their wits (just that easy) and potential robbers (provided they're not on drugs).
Posted by: LC LaWedgie at November 21, 2012 08:37 AM (rzTDZ)
@126
Colt. I can get one at Walmart for near the same price as the Bushy, and its all mil-spec where the Bushy isn't. The Colt 6920 is as close to an issued M4 as a civvy can get. All parts HP/MPI inspected. I believe Bushmaster does batch testing.
If price is no object, Noveske, Larue, Knights Armament in no particular order.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:38 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: AZ Hi Desert at November 21, 2012 08:38 AM (8cJXl)
You won't find a lee loader in the bunch.
I have between 80-100k rounds through my 550 and 650 and only minor parts issues - all of which were sent to me free.
Try that with Lee.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:38 AM (qBLA2)
rons in general:
Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56? That's my question.
Start reloading. Twice the accuracy at half the price. Plus it's a valuable learning experience.
You won't save any money, but only because you'll end up shooting a lot more.
You don't need an expensive setup to start with if you just want to give it a try. I loaded thousands of rounds through my cheap Lee single stage press.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 08:38 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:39 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Kinley Ardal at November 21, 2012 08:40 AM (nXb6C)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:39 PM (8y9MW)
It's a riff on minute of angle.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:40 AM (GRvW4)
And, keep in mind Larry Craig - who STILL sits on the BOD.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (qBLA2)
That, and Mike V. and David C., of whom both pushed the story online and in Congress for about a year prior to the NRA stepping in, are pretty much both ostracized by the NRA, while the NRA has yet to give proper credit (that I have seen at least). I am a member, but I am not happy about that one.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 08:40 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:40 AM (qBLA2)
I love the smell of Hoppe's No. 9 in the morning.
This is gonna be fun.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:40 AM (OZPoa)
Posted by: Paladin at November 21, 2012 08:41 AM (lP8dE)
The thing I really miss though is the accuracy you can get from hand loads. It is really better than any factory.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 08:41 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Navycopjoe (team LIB) at November 21, 2012 08:41 AM (AdHyU)
This is gonna be fun.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (OZPoa)
Once told my ex that if she used it for perfume, she'd never get my hands off her.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:41 AM (GRvW4)
Mike V and David C were never mentioned.
Without them - this would never have come to light.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:42 AM (qBLA2)
@145
Accuracy is measured in Minutes of angle (MOA). For example, if a rifle has the accuracy potential of 1 MOA, shots all impact within 1'' of one another at 100 yards, 2'' at 200 yards and so on. Minute of bad guy is kinda a joke for "good enough for government work"
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:42 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: Stu-22 at November 21, 2012 08:42 AM (k4bdL)
Finally - Kansas' modern firearms deer season opens in one week - which may be the most important gun news of the month for me.
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 08:42 AM (mfWu+)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 08:42 AM (2CiZb)
AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)
Hey Allen- met at the moron meetup you put together-remember? We can't be too far apart (I forgot where you said you live). I have a bit of a "collection", sometime we can get together and you can try before you buy.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 08:43 AM (C0alm)
rons in general:
Do I start reloading or just bulk-buy more 5.56? That's my question.
Meh 5.56 doesn't have the range performance (beyond 300yds) to warrant spending your time making rounds for it. You will find loading a box of shells will take a couple hours for only some very modest savings. A low performance, easily obtainable, high volume round like the 5.56? I wouldn't recommend reloading it to a beginner. If you love reloading yes. Otherwise, it probably, in practical terms won't be worth your time.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 08:43 AM (0q2P7)
I'm having trouble hitting the target with my Sig P220 .45. Shots are way low. Like 8-12 inches at 25 yards.
I started on a Glock 9mm and can hit the spot with it, but with the .45 I just suck. I'd love to blame the gun or sights, but I know that would be a mistake.
Has anybody had trouble with accuracy when moving from 9mm to .45ACP? Or has anybody ever heard of factory Sig's needing sight adjustment or sight replacement?
I only share this personal shortcoming with the hoarde because I know you all are so kind.
Posted by: California Red at November 21, 2012 08:43 AM (icSBv)
Hey, That's a lot of questions for a guy that doesn't have a blog.
Going to lunch BBL to try and start answering those question.
Most of them are pretty easy. Start pistol shooting with a 22 to get use to a gun. Accuracy with pistols depends on barrel length and cal. Larger cal are harder to aim. Concealed carry gun depends on you and how you are going to carry. A pocket gun Seacamp 380 is small, but you won't hit anything unless you are less that three feet from them. You have a hard time carrying a larger pistol concealed. SW 38 Police Special is a good backup, only 5 shots. Again, if you are carrying, you should not pull out your weapon unless you plan to kill the fucker. Glocks are very popular and come in every cal. 40 is big enough to kill the shit out of anyone. Cops carry them because they don't fuck up and don't have a safety, so you just pull it out and shoot. The safety is on the trigger.
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectual at November 21, 2012 08:43 AM (wR+pz)
Armalite
DPMS
Bushmaster
Rock River
Stag arms
are just a few off the top of my head
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (2CiZb)
Before it fell out of my truck, I had a SandW MP15-T... Smith is making great AR's. Of course, YMMV.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:44 AM (GRvW4)
Posted by: Skookumchuk at November 21, 2012 08:45 AM (0Db2g)
Minute of angle = 1/60th of 1 degree = 1 inch at 100 meters.
An accurate rifle might be said to shoot 1 MOA, or one inch groups at 100 yards.
"Minute of deer" or "Minute of bad guy" is just a snarky way of saying "good enough to hit your target".
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 08:45 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: tsj017 at November 21, 2012 08:45 AM (4YUWF)
Posted by: sdavis at November 21, 2012 08:45 AM (njVMI)
@163
Unless you have a progressive and want to do volume... but if you do, you already know that.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:45 AM (t06LC)
Posted by: Kool-Aid is Good at November 21, 2012 08:46 AM (Kflw4)
I do, but I'm terrible with names (and putting names to faces).
That would be pretty cool.
Actually, I and a guy I go to church with are trying to put together a shooting outing. Some shotguns, some clay pigeons, and several hours of fun.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:46 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Daryl Herbert at November 21, 2012 08:46 AM (r1Snu)
If you can get military surplus cheap do that.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 08:47 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Skookumchuk at November 21, 2012 08:47 AM (0Db2g)
Posted by: liquidflorian at November 21, 2012 08:48 AM (Kx/oz)
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 08:48 AM (Q8Pu5)
Posted by: Navycopjoe (team LIB) at November 21, 2012 08:48 AM (jpPSm)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows þr0n is your constitutionally guaranteed entitlement at November 21, 2012 08:48 AM (Lxw+T)
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:49 AM (GRvW4)
Posted by: awkward davies at November 21, 2012 08:49 AM (USjX1)
Posted by: elections have consequences at November 21, 2012 08:49 AM (Kflw4)
It's well-named, isn't it?
My dad had one of those when I was a kid (and I presume he still has it). What a great shooting revolver.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:50 AM (OZPoa)
As for handguns, some ranges will have "loaner" guns for you to try. That's how I found my first handgun. Everyone had been telling me that I needed to get the Lady S&W (hammerless and safer for purse carry). I hated it. I'm still not a fan of the S&W.
When I first tried the Walther PPK/S (.380), I loved it. It fit my hand perfectly and I was fairly accurate with it from the start. It was my first handgun purchase. A few months later, with regular trips to the range, I had the opportunity to shoot a SIG Sauer .45. While I absolutely loved it, it was too much gun for me. I was going to the range on my lunch break and was wearing work clothes (suit/heels). With every shot, I was scooted back about a quarter-inch. I tried the 9mm P226 and that became my second handgun. The P228 is also awesome.
The 9mm derringer is not a gun you want to spend a lot of time at the range with. The kick of a 9mm round leaving a little, tiny gun gets old after just a few shots. Nice in an emergency but not great for plinking.
My most recent purchase was a 22 revolver. So much fun and I'm getting pretty accurate with it. Only two issues with it: no swing-out cylinder and it's mag instead of LR. I'm going to try to get the LR cylinder but hate having to send my gun to the manufacturer. waah. Okay. Done whining.
Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 08:50 AM (ZdRSq)
PAY ATTENTION!
When it says to back off 10% - do it.
Blown up guns are no fun. Watching grip panels get blown off and magazines blown out of the bottom of 1911s is exciting. IF its not in your hand. Having a squib lodge a bullet or wad in a barrel and then followed up with a live one can be very destructive.
Precision Shooting has some very, very good manuals on rifle reloading.
Any of the component manufacturers for handguns. Sierra, Hornady, Hodgden, etc.
Every gun barrel is different for a variety of reasons and almost all will exhibit different pressure signals.
NEVER USE any IPSC loads you come across in a standard handgun. Many of these are designed for fully supported chambers and will be devastating in a standard non supported barrel.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:50 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: sdavis at November 21, 2012 08:51 AM (njVMI)
Posted by: Ron Jeremy's fading libido at November 21, 2012 08:51 AM (3niml)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 08:51 AM (sGWH5)
@180
Was it a Ishapore? I saw one of those once, but it was pretty beat up. They had some in .410 also
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:51 AM (t06LC)
http://www.eaglegunrangetx.com/
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:51 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: OCBill at November 21, 2012 08:51 AM (rFipM)
Posted by: fire captain at November 21, 2012 08:52 AM (L8Qa7)
I built my own deer rifle from scratch. by that I mean I chose a proven design and modified it to suit my needs. Did the pressure and thrust calculations. Chose my cartridge as the 30-40 Krag. I drew all the parts up in Cadd and made working prints with tolerances.Bought a .308" barrel blank, cut it to length, contour turned it, threaded it, cut extractor/ejector groove. Chambered it , built custom scope mounts for it and mounted a classic Weaver scope made in the 70's on it. Machined the receiver from hardened and tempered 4140 alloy steel. Made the action partsfrom O-1 tool steel on my lathe, mill, and some formed by hand with files and other tools. Austempered the action parts in my refurbished antique forge. I cut an ozark walnut from my Uncles land, dragged it out of the woods, had a slab sawed with good figure. I dried the blank for 2 years. Designed, cut, hand carved the stock and fitted it to the rifle bbl/action. Taught myself to checker and checkered the stock myself. Finished the stock in tru-oil, hand rubbed 15 coats. I built a boiling tank to fit the rifle on my kitchen stove and used it and a ton of elbow grease to slow rust blue the rifle to a deep black. The falling block was machined from a Chrome-vanadium shank from a commercial CNC boring bar. I formed springs from stock length springs. Built more than 10 special tools to do all the machining.
Completed rifle ready to shoot weight just over 5 pounds with sling and scope. Fired over 100 times with maximum hand loads. No problems. It holds 1.5" groups at 100 yards with my handloads and a 4X scope. 5 deer have fallen to it so far with many in it's future. Only took me an estimated 850 hours. (don't tell me I can't finish a project).
Posted by: maddogg at November 21, 2012 08:52 AM (OlN4e)
Glocks are for folks who don't intend to master the craft. The 1911 is a work of art meant to be used by those willing to pursue mastery.
Glocks make more sense for mst people.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 08:52 AM (C0alm)
The name of the game will be "Pali Hunter". There should also be some special challenges, for example if you shoot a child then you lose 50 points, but if you see the fuse on his vest and you shoot him because you realize he is really a disguised suicide bomber, then you earn 50 points. You know you've made the right choice when you get treated to the massive secondary explosion when his vest goes off.
So, I think this has got some real good possibilities!!!
Posted by: Tom Servo at November 21, 2012 08:52 AM (ekln7)
Posted by: 2nd Amendment Mother at November 21, 2012 08:52 AM (HKzrW)
Yeah, a bit. In the past 10 years I've owned three full size Uzi subguns, a Micro Uzi, a Fleming HK sear, an FNC, an AR15 RDIAS, two M16s, a couple AR15 SBRs, a Tromix Saiga 12 SBS, a short Remngton 870 and enough suppressors that I'd have to look at my records to make sure I remembered them all. Most of the machine guns have ben sold in trading up to better ones. 2013 will probably just be building up a 10/22 clone receiver into an SBRed pocket rifle, and a Gemtech G5-22 for the muzzle. Everything else I want (more transferable machine guns) is unfortunately outside my budget.
Posted by: ARL at November 21, 2012 08:53 AM (gG97F)
Glocks make moresense for mst people.
Tactical tupperware.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 08:53 AM (qBLA2)
@186
I think the NFA pretty much spells out what is included. I think a revision that major would take an amendment through congress.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:53 AM (t06LC)
If you want to talk fishing, I guess that'd be ok. Posted by: DaveA (Just being a Moron) at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (MOWP1)
22s are the best fishing rifle.
Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 08:54 AM (xXhWA)
Posted by: tsj017 at November 21, 2012 12:45 PM (4YUWF)
----
I see wut you did thar......
Posted by: Zombie JFK at November 21, 2012 08:54 AM (nELVU)
Posted by: rickb223 Let It Burn at November 21, 2012 08:54 AM (GFM2b)
We went there for a meetup a couple of years ago.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:54 AM (OZPoa)
"Yeah but the Remington Nylon 66 rules, just try to find one, if you got em hold em..."
I have a 1959 - Mohawk brown in very good condition. Make me an offer.
Daddy needs a new AR.
Posted by: Jaws at November 21, 2012 08:54 AM (4I3Uo)
That gun is for patsies.
Posted by: L. Oswald at November 21, 2012 08:55 AM (QKKT0)
Posted by: Skookumchuk at November 21, 2012 08:56 AM (0Db2g)
Not sure, I'd have to look.
For the little solo shooting I've done, I've gone to the Great Southwest Gun Club (corner of Great Southwest and Main in Grand Prairie). It's close to me and it's cheap.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:56 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Noncentsical at November 21, 2012 08:56 AM (Na7G9)
Then she wanted to shoot the 870.
Long story short: like an old warner brothers cartoon, when the 870 went off she flew back through the air and landed on her butt in the snow while I was still holding the shotgun. Good times, good times. She was surprised, but when I started laughing she did too, and then she wanted to do it again. (No, once was enough) It doesn't seemed to have emotionally scarred her. She's 13 and still asks me to tell the story. She also still likes to shoot.
Posted by: Annonymous, for Child Protective Services Reasons at November 21, 2012 08:57 AM (gWLRb)
Posted by: Ima Wurdibitsch at November 21, 2012 08:57 AM (ZdRSq)
AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:46 PM (8y9MW)
I was the one wearing the cap (you know, the redneck) and my wife accompanied me. I'm on the north side (Prosper). I'm a shotgunner as well, shoot clays with some frequency, but if you want to try out some firearms meant for "business", I've got a few of those as well.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 08:57 AM (C0alm)
When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start with?
When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look for?
What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)
1. I taught my children and my girlfriend to shoot handguns by starting them out with the finest target pistol I own, a S&W K38 Target Masterpiece .38 Spl revolver. For one thing, the K38 Target Masterpiece is amazingly accurate; thus, I can analyze their shot patterns on the target and know it's what they're doing right or wrong and not any idiosyncracies of the weapon. The stress for beginners is on fundamentals: stance(s), hold, trigger press. Shoot pistols with both eyes open. Once you've mastered fundamentals, practice shooting one-handed. Practice shooting with your weak hand. Practice fast presentation. Practice reloading. Buy snap caps and practice your grip and trigger press at home.
2. Insofar as carry pieces are concerned, it depends on your body type, your personal and professional milieu, and your affinity for the weapon. I have a carry license and carry a commie surplus 9x18 mm Makarov semi-automatic pistol. I'm a short guy with a somewhat slender build, so I need a compact weapon with a slim profile so it doesn't 'print' too much when I'm wearing casual clothing. I like the Makarov too because it feels right in my hand, points well, packs a reasonable punch, and is absolutely reliable. Bigger men (and women) can more easily conceal bigger guns. I know some guys swear by their 1911 .45 ACPs. I like them, too, but carrying it around wouldn't work for me. And don't worry overmuch about physical comfort in carrying the thing. 'It isn't supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be comforting.'
3. Accuracy? If you can hit center mass of a silhouette target at 5-7 yards consistently, that's accurate enough, in my view. Your goal is not bullseye accuracy. Your goal is relatively tight groups in vital areas of the human body at close range. Further, in most self-defense situations, proper stance goes out the window. He who hits first usually wins.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 08:57 AM (vtiE6)
Reloading becomes very economical when you get into lower demand rounds (weatherby, win-mags, assorted European rounds).
Reloading is also handy when you're picky about the bullets for your hunting needs (e.g. solids, roundnoses, spitzers, flat-base vs boattails, those types of factors). Reloading can ensure you can match the bullet to the game and expected hunting conditions (plains, mountains, brush).
I would add that the idea that you can get better velocity out of reloading is probably less and less true as more and more companies ramp up the velocities of their factory ammo using proprietary powders in order to meet consumer demand. .
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 08:57 AM (mfWu+)
@214
How do you like that FS2000? I've been thinking about picking one up. Mostly because it kinda looks like the gun off Halo.
Posted by: JollyRoger at November 21, 2012 08:58 AM (t06LC)
I could kick myself, because when I lived there I worked at Macarthur/114 and never knew the range was there. I could just about have seen it from my office window.
Many missed long lunch opportunities. Oh, well.
Posted by: Andy at November 21, 2012 08:58 AM (OZPoa)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 08:58 AM (sGWH5)
Yes. Really.
http://bit.ly/UJrd3V
Okay, that specifically says kids' birthday parties, but I'm pretty sure we could get a room to hang out in. I might even be able to convince the wife to send cheesecake.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 08:58 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (SY2Kh)
Or even more cheaply with the Lee hand press. Thousands through that as well.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 08:58 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: WalrusRex at November 21, 2012 08:59 AM (Hx5uv)
I've met the guy a few times, and he's exactly like that in real life (I used to work in a Nashville gun store). And about 6'7". Notice the height of the table he uses relative to the cameraman.
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 09:01 AM (L8r/r)
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 09:01 AM (Q8Pu5)
Hope you had "permission" from the feds. Damn crows fall under the migratory bird act. They will allow you to shoot them if you ask them and tell them they are a "nuisance" to your "farm", but you have to ask first.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:01 AM (YdQQY)
you just want to give it a try. I loaded thousands of rounds through my
cheap Lee single stage press.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (SY2Kh)
Or even more cheaply with the Lee hand press. Thousands through that as well.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (Kkt/i)
-----
I love my Lee classic turret. Started with the single stage, but wanted higher production for the pistolas. One fine press and it wont break the bank.
Posted by: fixerupper at November 21, 2012 09:02 AM (nELVU)
Posted by: Gavrilo Princip at November 21, 2012 09:02 AM (QKKT0)
The Ruger 10/22 was the one I was going to order from Dicks. I want to stay with a 22 since I already have a Ruger 22 target pistol. My son bitches at me (his poor old mom) for not going with more fire power, but I keep telling him that when I am in need of shooting an intruder with whatever gun I have at the moment, I will be unloading the entire clip, so it doesn't really matter what's in said clip.
Posted by: Jaimo at November 21, 2012 09:02 AM (9U1OG)
Reasons to reload.
1. Cost savings.
Re-using your brass (an impossibility for military brass with crimped primers BTW for you beginners) will save you some money in the long run. The more uncommon your case is the more you will save.
2. Better accuracy. You can, with a lot of patience, experimentation, and time on the range, match your projectile, rifle, and load, to achieve bullet departure at resonance of the barrel allowing you to shoot some very very tight groups with almost any rifle.
3. You don't like the factory available projectiles. This is almost always the reason I reload a round. A number of very good projectiles exist in all sorts of different weights, not all of which will be commonly (or cheaply) available for your round. I am a big fan of Nosler, for instance and end up hand loading and reloading a number of rounds with CT Silvertips, or Accubonds. The projectile is what gets the work done at the end of the day. It's selection is very important.
Reasons not to reload.
1. Time time time. It takes a lot of time to reload.
2. Lack of interest. It is an exercise in precision. If you don't want to do it and get sloppy, you'll ruin your favorite weapon and perhaps injure yourself.
3. Lack of skill. While not really difficult, you can't be afraid of using a caliper, or measuring out weights less than one kernel of corn.
3. Space you don't have it. You'll need it. A press needs to be mounted to a sturdy table such as a work shop table. You will need to be more or less uninterrupted while you are loading.
4. Initial investment. There are a number of things you need to buy to be a hand loader, you will feel the pinch in your pocket and it will take a while (Unless you shoot something exotic) before you make back your initial investment.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 09:02 AM (0q2P7)
Okay, that specifically says kids' birthday parties
Here in California if you tried having your kids birthday party at a gun range they probably throw you in jail and try taking the kids away from you
Posted by: kj at November 21, 2012 09:03 AM (AW9md)
Posted by: the lone lemon at November 21, 2012 09:03 AM (xXhWA)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:58 PM (8y9MW)
Huh. Only a 17 and a half hour drive for me. I think I can totally make it.
Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 09:03 AM (da5Wo)
Bought a 12 ga. double-barreled coach gun last weekend. I've always admired the intimidation factor in those guns. Plus, it just looks good.
A good home-defense weapon.
Posted by: Soona at November 21, 2012 09:03 AM (78QmA)
Only if you're comparing apples to oranges- as in Winchester white box vs much more accurate hand loads.
Now if you compare the price of commercial match grade ammo to match grade handloads, the latter will win every time.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 09:03 AM (SY2Kh)
God bless Texas.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 09:04 AM (8y9MW)
Posted by: jclittlep at November 21, 2012 09:04 AM (PVOHJ)
Huh? I'm sure that makes sense to people who aren't novices.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:39 PM (8y9MW)
Minute of angle is a standard of precision discussed in these circles. 1 minute of angle is an angular measurement (degree, minutes, seconds) that corresponds roughly to 1" of separation between two points at 100 yards.
By minute of bad guy, he/she was referring to being able to hit within a roughly 18" circle at seven yards away. The tighter the shot groups the better, as the 18" corresponds roughly to the torso width of a potential target.
And 7 yards is probably the minimum you would want to start to think about shooting an attacker considering that, within that zone, the closer he/she is, the more likely he could reach you before you got a chance to draw and shoot accurately.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 09:04 AM (Kkt/i)
this is a good opportunity to link a classic
the smith & wesson gun cam, a dedicated camera trained on a handgun to watch for "gun violence"
http://tinyurl.com/4zaj49
Posted by: Soothsayer at November 21, 2012 09:05 AM (5p4n9)
You can get what is called a "primer pocket reamer" to remove those crimps in military brass.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:06 AM (YdQQY)
you're talking about the extremely common rounds (.30-06, .270, 9mm,
etc...)i
Only if you're comparing apples to oranges- as in Winchester white box vs much more accurate hand loads.
Now if you compare the price of commercial match grade ammo to match grade handloads, the latter will win every time.
-------------------------------------
Excellent point. Price rounds with SMKs, or Nosler partition, or Trophy bonded.
Then price a box of projectiles.
The press looks better and better....
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:06 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 09:07 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Jimbro at November 21, 2012 09:08 AM (5OQ35)
Mike V and David C were never mentioned.
Without them - this would never have come to light.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 12:42 PM (qBLA2)
Saw that. I don't read their narratives on FF anymore, because I know it is mostly salesmanship. And I have already got the straighter dope online.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 09:08 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 09:08 AM (lt5JJ)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:09 AM (YdQQY)
Use the primer pocket swager, hit it with case mouth uniformer and use remington primers.
Also, beware of military brass which has gone through a pig or a 240.
Possible headspace issues. Large MG chambers.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:09 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 09:09 AM (sGWH5)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (sGWH5)
You're gonna punch a guy who's a holding a weapon that you don't know is properly cleared?
Posted by: BCochran1981 at November 21, 2012 09:11 AM (da5Wo)
It's my first shotgun, any ammo recommendations? Target shooting and home defense is the plan.
Lots and lots of practice. Keep an eye on the rubber gas ring.
It will be the first casualty.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:11 AM (qBLA2)
Now if you compare the price of commercial match grade ammo to match grade handloads, the latter will win every time.
While that is pretty much always true some rounds don't have a performance profile ( I'm not interested in rote accuracy, I need energy too) such that it makes sense to be pursuing those long ranges; for instance beyond 300 yds the 5.56 is pretty weak, factory ammo hits decent at 300. Unless I'm going to competition I probably wouldn't reload a 5.56 even though I already own all the equipment (minus dies) to do so. It just isn't worth my time.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 09:11 AM (0q2P7)
Posted by: maddogg at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (OlN4e)
Impressive. I bet it fits like a glove.
Posted by: Grey Fox at November 21, 2012 09:11 AM (LQjA9)
Posted by: Clemenza at November 21, 2012 09:12 AM (Q8Pu5)
Anyone else visiting will find the general forums at Calguns to be both good reading and educational. You will also realize how f'ked we are our here (just don't be too smug about it, Obama's workin for you too).
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at November 21, 2012 09:13 AM (9eDbm)
MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (lt5JJ)
That's the only problemwith Texas. I live in Texas but the distance to Chariton county, MO is about the same as to Brewster county. That is some rough old country by the way......
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 09:14 AM (C0alm)
Check here.
http://blog.hsoi.com/2009/06/15/correcting-handgun-shooting-problems/
Also, note that, with changes in the amount of recoil (e.g., heavier recoiling rounds) your point of impact will change as the amount of wrist movement will vary and the length of time the bullet is traveling through the barrel will vary. Your Sig might be designed for shooting 230 grain standard ammo, while hot 180ish grain might not be ideal for the sight setup.
You can also change sights if you find that you are not committing the errors at the link above and don't want to try different ammo. But changing ammo first would be an easy first step.
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 09:16 AM (Kkt/i)
Target shooting? I imagine that means trap or skeet? Get the gun fitted. SOON, so you don't develop bad habits to compensate for bad fit. Fit on a shotgun is where almost all of your accuracy comes from. Remington had a remarkable gun in the 1100/11-87 (Don't confuse the two they are very different on the inside) that they made a reliable, affordable, semi-automatic shotgun, that fits not one single person on the planet. All of them need to be fitted.
Other than that practice practice practice. Shotgun is a weapon of feel and reflex, unlike a rifle which is almost a zen execution of process.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 09:16 AM (0q2P7)
Reloading, or not reloading, is a question of economics. How much is it worth to you to have the best possible bullet/powder/COAL setup for your rifle, versus throwing down $15.99 at Wally World and blasting away.
If you don't mind spending countless hours being creepy in your basement working at the reloading bench (my wife says it makes me seem creepy) then it makes sense to reload vs. buy new.
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 09:16 AM (mfWu+)
Posted by: MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 09:16 AM (lt5JJ)
Posted by: Jimbro at November 21, 2012 09:17 AM (5OQ35)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Waiting for the Sun at November 21, 2012 01:09 PM (sGWH5)
He asked specific questions. I answered them. You better believe people I have taught (many of whom I love more than my own life) know the rules down to the individual strands of their DNA before touching a firearm in my presence.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 09:17 AM (vtiE6)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 09:18 AM (fWAjv)
@248 Use the Breneke shotgun round good for self defense or big game...Always load a 00 in the first 2 positions followed by the slugs, Breneke also has a 8mm round for a Mauser that has all the muzzle energy of a Howitzer..
Pentration in your home is a serious consideration. Brennkes or any other slug, or buck for that matter will penetrate several walls endangering your family. The beauty of shotguns as home defense weapons is the low pentration capabilities of birdshot, say number 4s down to 6s. And they will kill anyone you shoot at distances relevan to home defense.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 09:18 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: blindside at November 21, 2012 09:19 AM (x7g7t)
http://ultimatereloader.com/
Posted by: Flounder at November 21, 2012 09:22 AM (Kkt/i)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 21, 2012 09:23 AM (IH2b5)
Jacketed bullets only for glock barrels. Everything else being done correctly, that will keep the inside parts on the inside.
If you go to a Wolf barrel, or another with standard rifling - have at it.
Also, the good little germans will void your warranty for ANY reloads.
Plastic is plastic...
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:23 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 09:24 AM (pLTLS)
MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (lt5JJ)
Oh I love that country, you just have to be a tough sob to survive there! I agree the Big Bend is someof the most beautiful country on the planet, and there is plenty of game. Talked to a guy recently who said they also have credible evidence that jaguars are venturing out of Chihuahua on occasion as well.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 09:25 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Jean at November 21, 2012 09:25 AM (tZYm2)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:25 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 09:25 AM (OvRHg)
Posted by: blindside at November 21, 2012 09:26 AM (x7g7t)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 09:26 AM (fWAjv)
Work the action and hold your thumb in the chamber nail side facing the barrel with light shining in the action. Look down the barrel and look at the rifling grooves.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:27 AM (YdQQY)
If you've looked down the barrels of lots of rifles not hard. If you haven't it's damn hard to spot a worn barrel unless the rifling is all but gone.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 09:27 AM (0q2P7)
Dillon also makes single stage presses.
My point of bringing up competitive shooters is to demonstrate what WORKS.
Most of these guys get their stuff given to them and they have a choice of the entire industry.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:28 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 09:28 AM (IPGju)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 09:29 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 09:31 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 09:31 AM (Z9EHQ)
blindside at November 21, 2012 01:26 PM (x7g7t)
You live in a hellof a lot bigger house than me! The average self defense situation takes place at half that distance, and even a short-barreled defense shotgun is usually choked at least improved cylinder. IC will place over 50% of its pattern in a 30 in circle........... at thirty yards. At bedroom distances a badguy will absorb every pellet. He's dead.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 09:32 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 09:33 AM (Z9EHQ)
Posted by: Transgendered Jason Biggs at November 21, 2012 09:33 AM (fWAjv)
I'd never heard of fitting a shotgun before. I've had shotguns that I loved and some that I hated. After looking it up and reading the lined article it may not have been the guns themselves but the fit. Thanks for leading me to higher learning.
http://tinyurl.com/avmy44l
Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 09:33 AM (tf9Ne)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:29 PM (pLTLS)
Depends on the distance and circumstances. For home defense it is best because distance will be less than 15 feet at which it is lethal. After it does go through the intruder it probably will do no damage going through interior walls to people on the other side.
Buckshot will whistle through them, the next interior wall and the exterior wall killing anything in its path.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:34 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 21, 2012 09:35 AM (IH2b5)
Alamo, I love to hear that about the jaguars, and I love the fact that there are still places in my country--Congaree Swamp in South Carolina is another one--where you can literally spend days there without seeing another human being.
That's why I get so frustrated with American environmentalists. I've been all over the world, pretty much, and I don't know of any people more reverent towards the natural world than the hunting and fishing culture of the United States, most of whom are gun enthusiasts and conservatives.
Posted by: MikeinAmman at November 21, 2012 09:35 AM (lt5JJ)
Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 09:36 AM (IPGju)
Posted by: Comrade Trainer on his iphone at November 21, 2012 09:36 AM (L8M3D)
Not bad, but jig, drill bits will be an added cost, then you can build as many as you want. Can't sell them though. Legally
Posted by: Farmer at November 21, 2012 09:37 AM (joG3U)
A word of caution for first time gun owners:
It is very likely you will be excited about your new aquisition and all it means. But by no means should you try to share your enthusiasm by running outside to show your neighbors and yelling "I've got a GUN! I've got a GUN!".
Please.
Trust me on this one.
Posted by: Dadof3 at November 21, 2012 09:38 AM (cBI/m)
Start with basics like finding your master eye. Spend 15 minutes a day mounting an EMPTY gun correctly.
Pattern the gun on a stationary target to find where the majority of pellets are hitting.
Goe to Dicks or one of those places who will give you a case discount on ammo. But reloadable cases (Double AA) because you just never know when or if you will reload. With light loads you can get a dozen shots out of one case before you start losing parts of the crimp.
And go shoot, shoot and shoot some more.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:40 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:25 PM (YdQQY)
I wouldn't compare a Mosin-Nagant to a 1903 Springfield, apples and oranges, but there's simply no better deal on a well-built, large caliber, bolt-action rifle out there than the Mosin. I bought one for $100 a while back, a somewhat beat-up WWII veteran. Whoever fought with it took care of it. I refinished the stock and gave it a trigger job. The bore was in great shape when I got it, and it shoots reasonably tight groups at 100 yards. It is not a POS.
If you can't kill it with a Mosin-Nagant, it can't be killed.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 09:40 AM (vtiE6)
Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 09:40 AM (OvRHg)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 09:41 AM (Z9EHQ)
But the stampings are all in Austrian - so whats one to do?
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:41 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: sdavis at November 21, 2012 09:41 AM (njVMI)
40 ft? You mean 13yds? You get like 90% of your pellets inside of 8 inches. The human chest is over a foot wide.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose is Shrugging at November 21, 2012 09:43 AM (0q2P7)
This one has a red dot indicator so you know when the pin is out. It is fun to plink with.
Posted by: sTevo at November 21, 2012 09:43 AM (VMcEw)
Anyone have any experience or comments on Remington's HD ammo?:
http://tinyurl.com/2dwuwqa
Looks like a marketing gimmick. 2 3/4 1250 fps is nothing more than a 3 3/4 dram high brass pheasant load.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:44 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 09:44 AM (Z9EHQ)
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 09:45 AM (mfWu+)
Big +1 on the Lee Classic Turret press.
It's inexpensive, it can essentially be used as a single stage if needed, the learning curve is relatively easy, the toolhead switchout process is waaaay cheaper than Dillon, and you can still crank out a respectable number of rounds per hour once you're up to speed.
Posted by: Jaws at November 21, 2012 09:46 AM (4I3Uo)
229 When my daughter was about 3, she wanted to tromp around with me in the snow to shoot crows.
Hope you had "permission" from the feds. Damn crows fall under the migratory bird act. They will allow you to shoot them if you ask them and tell them they are a "nuisance" to your "farm", but you have to ask first.
----------
But I think you can shoot Starlings and Grackles...which are not native to No. America, and are considered 'invasive species'.
Which they are.
Starlings are the speckled black birds from Europe.
Grackles are the ones from Africa, solid black with long curved wing feathers...and have a sort of 'oil slick' sheen on their feathers.
Unlike our native Crows and Red-Wing Blackbirds...Starlings and Grackles are a huge nuisance, because they descend down on a food source and instead of flying away when they've had their fill...they sit there and eat-and-poop until it is all gone.
Posted by: wheatie at November 21, 2012 09:46 AM (ICEh3)
If you know of a better $100 bolt action high powered rifle, be sure to let us know.
I have a couple. They're fun to shoot if a bit crude. Durable though, with lots of cheap surplus ammo available.
But no, you won't win any beauty or accuracy contests with one.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 09:48 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Blackburnshost at November 21, 2012 09:48 AM (ttwxj)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 09:48 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: brando at November 21, 2012 09:48 AM (IPGju)
This is the only shot I have used that went through and through on a canada goose.
Pretty impressive.
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:50 AM (qBLA2)
My first foreman was killed by a shotgun at about 15 feet with bird shot. It blew a fist size hole through him.
Bird shot is the first choice for home defense unless you intend on shooting them outside as they run away.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:51 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 09:51 AM (bxiXv)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 09:52 AM (pLTLS)
Which they are
Wheatie
------------------------------
I don't think so. I have checked on grackles and cow birds and they fall under the treaty. Starlings probably do too.
In fact, I don't think I have ever found a single bird that did not fall under it. Maybe an owl but you damn sure better not shoot one of them because they fall under other rules.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 09:53 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 01:29 PM (qBLA2)
I had the good fortune to get to shoot with a Glock 18 once. It's pretty awesome shooting a full auto handgun, but you burn through ammo absurdly fast.
Posted by: Insomniac at November 21, 2012 09:55 AM (DrWcr)
In fact, I don't think I have ever found a single bird that did not fall under it. Maybe an owl but you damn sure better not shoot one of them because they fall under other rules.
MMMM, spotted owl.
Tasty!
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 09:56 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 09:56 AM (iYbLN)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 09:57 AM (Z9EHQ)
Posted by: wizardpc at November 21, 2012 09:58 AM (HDCAA)
Unless they're wearing heavy clothing and/or wired on crank.
A self defense weapon should be capable of incapacitating an intruder. Given that follow up shots aren't so quick with a shotgun, it should be with one shot.
The concern about over-penetration isn't completely unwarranted, but show me a single instance- ever- where someone was seriously hurt or killed as a result of over-penetration through a wall in a self-defense situation. It just doesn't happen.
00 buck might be overkill, but I'm not going to rely on hopes that the Bad Guy will give up after receiving a non-life threatening surface wound. I don't want him to have any choice in the matter.
tl;dr Birdshot is for shooting birds. If it can't penetrate vital organs through a couple layers of clothing, it's not suitable for self defense.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 10:00 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 10:01 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 10:01 AM (pLTLS)
Bird shot is the first choice for home defense unless you intend on shooting them outside as they run away.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (YdQQY)
I call bullshit. You're relaying a second or third hand account, aren't you?
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 10:03 AM (SY2Kh)
Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 01:48 PM (pLTLS)
The idiosyncracies of a (pump, semi-auto, double) shotgun versus what exactly? An AR? An auto pistol? Shotguns are infinitely easier to hit with in the dark, when you are disoriented from sleep, when you are frightened, whatever. I am not a contrarian, or don't mean to be, but a shotgun is by far the best home defense weapon available in my opinion. I am an accomplished pistol shot and competitor, but place a shotgun next my bed and my 1911 on my nightstand, I'll reach for the scattergun when the door breaks down.
Effectiveness? Any shotgun round short of dust shot is more lethal than a pistol slug at 15 feet. No comparison. And cutting loose with an AR in an occupied home? Either you don't have kids, or you're not very fond of them.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 10:06 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:03 PM (SY2Kh)
No it was from someone who was there. And on this score you are full of shit. He was also wearing a jacket at the time. It was in the late fall.
At 15 feet the shot has barely had time to exit the cup and start expanding.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 10:08 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: RWC at November 21, 2012 10:09 AM (fWAjv)
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at November 21, 2012 10:10 AM (9eDbm)
I was going to go with the Smith and Wesson but I liked the feel of the Ruger in my hands. I have two of my father's SW 38s, later I'll buy the 357 Magnum.
I got some good advice from my firearms trainer. Imagine a little lawyer attached to every bullet you fire especially in California.
Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 10:10 AM (iYbLN)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 10:10 AM (XDC0v)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (YdQQY)
My first choice for home defense is the big revolver on the nightstand. I want to be able to have one of my hands free. And like others on this thread, I question the logic of employing a weapon or a load not specifically intended to quickly incapacitate a human being.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 10:10 AM (vtiE6)
Pretty interesting.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56_2.htm
Posted by: GeorgePatton at November 21, 2012 10:14 AM (qBLA2)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 10:14 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at November 21, 2012 10:15 AM (9eDbm)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 10:17 AM (pLTLS)
At 15 feet the shot has barely had time to exit the cup and start expanding.
Then that "someone who was there" was greatly exaggerating, assuming we're talking typical #6 or #8 bird shot. Complete penetration with a heavier duck load like #2? Maybe, but still the "fist sized hole" isn't very believable.
It's true that at that range there isn't much spread, but on hitting the target, shot pellets still act more like shot than a single projectile.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 10:18 AM (SY2Kh)
117I'm finally learning to appreciate and not fear guns after 38 years on this earth. A few months ago, my husband bought me my first pistol, which I have yet to work up the nerve to fire.
.
Find yourself a good NRA beginners class. They cover safety and basic marksmanship. Most major cities offer these classes in a "women only" format. Money well spent. If you are going to own or carry a pistol it is mandatory to feel comfortable with the use of it. ....It may save your life.
Posted by: Gunner at November 21, 2012 10:18 AM (XGLac)
I used to have some hand loaded .223 which were hollow points. The bullets themselves were labeled as "super-explosive" (made by Hornady) but they were simply fragible ammo.
You are right that at room distances, particularly if you are shooting 6 shot or larger they would be less likely to penetrate additional walls.
I shot a dog with one once and it did go all the way through the dog but it looked like the bullet had completely disintegrated before exit.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 10:21 AM (YdQQY)
Agreed. Find a good firearms class for women. There are quite a few out there. I was lucky enough to find a very good firearms trainer who held classes at the gun shop. He wasn't condescending at all and answered every question I had no problem. When he took me to the range he was patient with me. Gave me a ton of confidence. I find I enjoy the hell out of it.
Posted by: mpfs at November 21, 2012 10:23 AM (iYbLN)
MikeInAmman,
I live in Austin. Brewster is doable. Any particular critters you want thinned down? I could walk the borders and send you pics if you don't have anyone keeping an eye on it for you.
I'd feel guilty not giving some payback though. If there are any folks around Austin who'd like to try some shooting, I don't have any scary black guns, but I have about one of every popular hunting rifle of the twentieth century, although the largest caliber is only a .375 H and H Magnum.
Posted by: Invictus at November 21, 2012 10:23 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 10:24 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 10:25 AM (Z9EHQ)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 10:26 AM (pLTLS)
It knocked him down and rolled him about 10 feet. He got back up and ran for another 20 or 30 yards.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 10:26 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at November 21, 2012 10:29 AM (piMMO)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:26 PM (pLTLS)
Probably. I've shot Class 3 but don't own any. Full auto is a lot of fun but hard on the wallet.
Posted by: Insomniac at November 21, 2012 10:29 AM (DrWcr)
5.56 rounds actually overpenetrate LESS than buckshot or pistol rounds. That's just a fact.
With a 5.56 or pistol round peneration is largely a matter of bullet construction. There are frangibles available for both, and they make sense in home defense. The standard FMC 5.56 round will fly though multiple layers of drywall, as will a hardball (or most JHP for that matter) pistol bullet.
My point in prefering the shotgun is that hitting the target under duress is much easier, particularly for the less experienced. Have you seen the statistices for the average gun fight engaged in by POs? Distance is like 11 feet, and hits are scored less than 50% of the time. That is, a trained officer misses with a handgun the majority of the time. Pistol craft is a carefully developed and perishable skill. Short range defensive shotgun use is not nearly as demanding. And for the doubters, #6s at 15 feet will kill you. Dead. You are not dealing with individual pellets at that distance, the projectile at distances under 25 feet is a tightly packed, jsut beginning to seperate mass of pellets, weighing in at around an ounce, traveling 1200 fps. One once is 440 grains.
What psitol round matches that for weight of projectile or velocity? .500 Smith maybe.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 10:29 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 10:30 AM (bxiXv)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 10:31 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Catmman at November 21, 2012 10:32 AM (OvRHg)
Oh, and the 1911 is the perfect handgun. At least for me. We're a good team ;-)
Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 10:33 AM (65lpa)
For bird hunting my favorite is a Ithaca Featherlight.
http://www.ithacagun.com/featherlight.html
Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 10:37 AM (tf9Ne)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 10:38 AM (bxiXv)
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 10:40 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 10:42 AM (Z9EHQ)
if you were scared for your life and shot bad guys in the face/neck or groin with birdshot at 25 feet, it may no be instantly fatal but would take alot of fight out of the said bad guys
Better than nothing? Of course.
The point isn't to take "a lot" of fight out of them. It's to take all of it. And I'd rather not rely on scoring a perfect head or groin shot in a self defense situation. At typical self defense ranges, the spread is so small that a shotgun needs to be aimed every bit as much as a rifle.
Test after test suggests that birdshot is a poor choice for home defense- it just doesn't reliably penetrate deeply enough to reach the vitals.
Can a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot at close range be lethal? Definitely. So can a .22 derringer. Doesn't mean I'd roll the dice by relying on one.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 10:43 AM (SY2Kh)
If you want to know what load to use in your shotgun to stop someone you could ask the gentleman in Harris County who shot and killed two burglars coming out of his neighbors house.
No billed by the way.
Posted by: polynikes at November 21, 2012 10:43 AM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Invictus at November 21, 2012 10:46 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 10:47 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 10:49 AM (Z9EHQ)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 02:24 PM (pLTLS)
My girlfriend comes from Boston, which has a nonexistent gun culture, whereas I grew up in rural Indiana, where hunting and shooting are just part of the day. She was vehemently anti-gun when we first met, but after her purse was wrenched from her shoulder by a lowlife asshole in the parking lot where she works in the city, she asked me to teach her how to shoot and to walk her through the process to get a carry license.
Now she's Annie Oakley at the range, adept at both rifle and handgun. Licensed to carry, she carries a Ruger LCP .380 in a hidden holster purse with a Barretta Bobcat in an ankle rig as a backup. I feel badly for the crook dumb enough to mess with her.
She and my daughter, both shooters now, still forbid me to hunt, though. Working on it.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 10:51 AM (vtiE6)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 10:52 AM (bxiXv)
Probably but maybe not. Why take that chance?
The first concealed carry class I took used a lot of real world examples of actual defense shootings. One included a bank robber who was shot through the heart with a .380 by an off duty cop. After that one shot, his Walther jam-o-matic jammed.
The robber responded by unloading 5 rounds at the cop at point blank range from his revolver. He missed all 5 times, ran out the door, and died in the parking lot.
They had the photo of the robber's heart, complete with hole in it, as well as a picture from the surveillance video. Point was- not every assailant will be immediately dissuaded by pain or even mortal wound.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 10:53 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 10:55 AM (Z9EHQ)
Oh, and the 1911 is the perfect handgun. At least for me. We're a good team ;-)
Posted by: bad cat robot at November 21, 2012 02:33 PM (65lpa)
If you're a woman whose weapon is a large-framed, 1911-type pistol, I'd suggest looking at purse holsters. I bought my girlfriend one for her Ruger LCP (with a somewhat smaller holster compartment than you would need), and she really likes it. The nice ones are expensive, but with practice, they allow for a very fast presentation.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 10:56 AM (vtiE6)
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 10:56 AM (4136b)
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 02:51 PM (vtiE6)
Some of those deear can be very aggressive. You had to shoot it in self-defense while you were peacefully hiking. Ducks are pretty mean too.
Posted by: Invictus at November 21, 2012 10:56 AM (OQpzc)
AR this, AR that, blah blah blah when everyone knows blackpowder is the best.
Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 10:56 AM (wgNcw)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 10:58 AM (2CiZb)
Horrible, dangerous guns liable to randomly explode and kill everyone in a 100 yard radius. You should get rid of them immediately.
Don't worry though. I'm willing to take them off your hands. Even pay for shipping. I'm caring like that.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 10:59 AM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 02:56 PM (wgNcw)
I own a Pietta reproduction 1861 Navy Colt .36 revolver. More fun than a human being can stand--and incredibly accurate if you keep loads consistent.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 11:01 AM (vtiE6)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 11:01 AM (Z9EHQ)
Crossbreed SuperTuck. Best IWB's I've ever used, in both configurations...skinny me and fat me.
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 11:03 AM (meVGV)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 11:03 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 11:05 AM (4136b)
Posted by: leftcoast at November 21, 2012 11:05 AM (aJgsx)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 11:05 AM (bxiXv)
Posted by: yankeefifth at November 21, 2012 03:01 PM (Z9EHQ)
I own a sweet little Yugo SKS. Who and what would I be shooting at that would require more than 200 or so rounds of 7.62?
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 11:05 AM (vtiE6)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 11:07 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 11:07 AM (bxiXv)
my kids started with a DAisy BB gun at age 3
They can't cock it, so you'll do that for hours
they also don't understand sights, but have a good time
You'll put your eye out, kid
Posted by: Gene Shepard at November 21, 2012 11:08 AM (FxBCF)
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 11:09 AM (4136b)
To the person wondering about a henry with the octagon barrel, go ahead and get one. I have a golden boy in .22lr with aftermarket sights. The original sights are just fine by the way, but the previous owner put on a front sight with a thinner blade and a rear with a deeper notch. Very accurate to fifty yards, at which my eyesight makes the gun more accurate than me. Very well made, with the slickest action of any lever gun I've had or held.
I've cycled the actions on the Big Boys while window shopping, they seem equally smooth, but haven't had the pleasure of shooting one. Mine was money well spent, imho.
Posted by: OneEyedJack at November 21, 2012 11:10 AM (ORvjs)
Posted by: blogRot at November 21, 2012 11:10 AM (chysP)
Is rifle. Is shoot. Da?
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 11:11 AM (celt+)
Took an ex-gf shooting. She was a squishy Cali-lib and was anti-gun. Took her trap shooting and she loved it. Got her her own shotty for Christmas that year. Last time I talked to her she still had the shotty (20ga Wingmaster) and had just bought herself a scoped .357 Python.
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 11:12 AM (meVGV)
Their biggest drawback is cost. They are expensive as hell. A Remington model 1100 is expensive enough and a fine shotgun.
Posted by: Vic at November 21, 2012 11:13 AM (YdQQY)
Posted by: Valiant at November 21, 2012 11:13 AM (aFxlY)
Posted by: Witchfinder at November 21, 2012 11:13 AM (pLTLS)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 11:13 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 11:15 AM (celt+)
Maaayyyybeeee.....
No. I've been accused of looking like Daryle Singletary, though...
He thought so, too, which was both disturbing and funny.
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 11:15 AM (meVGV)
Posted by: seb5150 at November 21, 2012 11:16 AM (QGTBZ)
I'll be getting that M&P15 after Christmas.
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 11:21 AM (celt+)
Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:15 PM
Well, ya know Vince yo-yos so I thought, maybe.
Isn't Daryle Singeltary part of NRACountry? A lot of the Nashville set are hunters and shooters, which is of course one reason why libs hate country music. That and country singers tend to you know, love the U.S.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 11:21 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 11:21 AM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 11:22 AM (4136b)
OK enough of the bullchit. 40 feet = 13.3 yards
15 feet = five yards
Bird shot 4, 5, 6 shot
try it. At this range in most any length barrell will put all pellets in a 30 inch diameter circle.
using a 12 guage shotgun even 6 shot high brass 2 3/4 " will penetrate most of the way through anything but armored clothing and most of the human body. 4 shot will go all the way through and most shot in about a ten inch diameter circle.
The impact will knock even an armoured intruder on their heels if not their ass.
No follow up necessary if aiming center mass. call an ambulance, your lawyer and then the cops.
.357, .45, buckshot, slugs may shoot through the walls killing your kid, wife, your dog or the neighbors kids, wives or dogs in an urban setting.
Get as short a barreled gun as is legal in your state one you can swing and shoot around the door jam without stepping out . it WILL clear the hallway, entry door, or living room of any bad guy.
Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 11:24 AM (vXqv3)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 11:25 AM (2CiZb)
Most country singers grew up struggling, then paid their dues in the music world, and didn't forget where they came from; many of them are also veterans. The "country" singers who pitch correct/lip sync bubblegum pop shit tend to not have that background and skew lib; most of them hide it so they don't go the way of the Dixie Chicks. Don't know if Singletary is involved with NRACountry or not, though.
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 11:27 AM (meVGV)
I have a 513 which was given -- given mind you -- to me by a CMP volunteer because I coach juniors and Boy Scouts. It's pre-WWII, and easily outshoots my Kimber 8200 and Anschutz 1903, which are generally taken to be state-match level guns. I know a couple of national-level shooters whose "secret ingredient" specials, with no two parts from the same maker, include Remington actions of the same vintage. Certain 52's will beat it at 100 yds, but it's timeless.
In its day, the BSA "cadet rifle" was the thing to have, but their single-stage triggers had to be set so light for championship-level work that they were a hazard to have on the range. They had a unique Martini action (well, unique now, anyway). I'd like to try one of those out. Alone.
Another surprising little piece is the Mossberg. Yes, they made rifles. I got mine from a Scout range that was closing ($10). I'm not big on re-bluing, but this one had been put away wet. I also made the big investment of screwing the front globe sight back in place (had about 3/16" of wobble -- think the range master would have noticed?), and at 50 feet, it's as good as any of the others.
Millions of Winchester models 66 and 67, with the cocking knob on the bolt, were branded as Sears and Montgomery Ward. Now that is a good starter rifle. But for god's sake, put real iron sights on it. Smallbore targets have gotten smaller! You can't hit tens with those open V's.
Posted by: comatus at November 21, 2012 11:29 AM (qaVK+)
Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:27 PM
Well I'm a George Jones, Haggard, Bob Wills type. Yep, they all grew up hard.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 11:30 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 11:34 AM (bxiXv)
Bob Wills is Still the King! Yeah, I grew up on stuff like that and I'm a huge Waylon fan. The great thing when I was trying to get in the business was getting to meet/hang out with people. The "old guys" have the best stories, too. Because of the media exposure, the artists today can't/don't get away with what they used to back in the day. Like that time Shot Jackson drug a hooker by her pubes down Broadway on Christmas Eve.
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 11:35 AM (meVGV)
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at November 21, 2012 11:36 AM (4136b)
Almost everything you said in your comment was factually incorrect speculation. Congrats on the consistency I guess.
For a real world example of what bird shot does (or more accurately, doesn't do), here you go: (SFW)
http://tinyurl.com/c62dga2
The resident of the home called 911 as he heard someone trying to break in on either the back or side of his house, Fulghum said. He then grabbed a shotgun and upon seeing the man climb through a window, fired birdshot pellets that sprayed the manÂ’s face.
“The suspect then fled, but he didn’t make it very far before he collapsed,” Fulghum said.
If he was still able to run away after being shot in the face at close range, imagine if he were armed and shot in the chest through a couple layers of clothing.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 11:38 AM (SY2Kh)
One of these was my first gun. And for learning to shoot accurately the having to load one bullet at a time is a bonus to focus a young boys mind on aiming.
Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 21, 2012 11:38 AM (tf9Ne)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 02:03 PM (SY2Kh)
Bull! at 15 feet "6 shot from a 12 guage 2 3/4 inch high brass load and standard 28 to 30" barrelled gun will blow a hole through a 4 to 6 inch fence post and leave exactly 10" or less hole in a piece of plywood TRY IT!
Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 11:39 AM (vXqv3)
Posted by: cranky-d at November 21, 2012 11:44 AM (HDtn6)
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 03:35 PM
Now that must have been some story. You ever get down to Gruene? I watched Billy Joe Shaver try and start something with some guys in the crowd at the Hall once about 10-12 years ago. It was kinda strange, Billy Joe always seemed so laid back....
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 11:45 AM (C0alm)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 03:38 PM (SY2Kh)
Nothing there about size of shot distance, guage of shot gun length of barrell, oz of shot or powder. I believe all that if he used a 410 at 30 feet and 71/2 shot which some folks consider "bird Shot"
My Bird shot is 4,5,6 shot 2 3/4 or 3" magnum loads and kills turkeys at 40 yards with a full choke and with my rabbit gun blows fence posts in half at ten feet, use copper plated and get even more penetration.
Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 11:45 AM (vXqv3)
Get as short abarreled gun as is legal in your state one you can swing and shoot around the door jam without stepping out . it WILL clear the hallway, entry door, or living room of any bad guy.
Posted by: concealedkerry or submitt at November 21, 2012 03:24 PM (vXqv3)
This is new. I'm trying to envision that whole 'swing and shoot around the door jam without stepping out' business. So you advocate shooting blindly around corners? Shooting without bothering to first ascertain whoever or whatever's out there? Good luck with that, especially in court.
Birdshot is birdshot. Using a weapon or a load for home defense that is not specifically intended to incapacitate a human being sounds like a bad idea to me, especially given the availability of specialized home defense ammo. Glaser rounds loaded in a pistol or revolver, for example, drastically reduce the chances of over-penetrating and hitting innocent people.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 11:50 AM (vtiE6)
'I own a Pietta reproduction 1861 Navy Colt .36 revolver. More fun than a human being can stand--and incredibly accurate if you keep loads consistent.'
I have the same in Uberti. and a 1862 police. Such dirty fun.
Currently looking at .38 s&w WW2 Enfield (webley copy) for my wife.
Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 11:50 AM (wgNcw)
That story was told to me by a guy I used to work with. His father had owned a record factory in downtown Nashville. Apparently there was a party that night at the Sho-Bud factory (which was a loft downtown then, in the early 60's). My friend's dad was already at the party, having gone there from his office, and had asked Red Foley to pick up my friend (then 8 years old) and his brother (10) since he was going past their house anyway. Red had Shot in the car and they stopped at a liquor store after they had picked the boys up. As they were getting ready to leave, a hooker comes walking up and propositions Shot Jackson. Shot told her he'd have to see what she had first, so she lifted up her skirt, revealing that she a) had no panties on and b) was "incredibly bushy" (my friend's words). Shot reached out the window, grabbed a handful of hair and said, "If you can keep up, I'll buy some. Let's go Red!"
Posted by: Country Singer at November 21, 2012 11:56 AM (meVGV)
You try it. I have plenty of experience shooting things with shotguns. The spread is nowhere near 10 inches at 15 feet. 6 inches of penetration through solid wood? No.
And a 28-30" barrel for a home defense shotgun? If all you have is your duck gun it's better than nothing, but most home defense shotguns use a 18-20" barrel.
The "birdshot is good for self defense" myth needs to die. It's been tested over and over again- it just doesn't provide enough penetration.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:01 PM (SY2Kh)
Keep the #6 shot for 12 pound birds. That's what it's made for- not 200 pound, clothed attackers.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:06 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 12:07 PM (XDC0v)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 12:09 PM (XDC0v)
If you want to go with pure lethality, then go with something chambered in .22lr. the extremely low recoil, and fact that even most handguns can handle 10+ rounds means you've got a pretty good chance of actually hitting your target - in the head.
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 12:17 PM (mfWu+)
Actually, a full choke duck gun would be better for birdshot, tight pattern at close range - only about a 3" spread at 5 yards, about the distance across a room in a home, according to a chart I found online.
Personally for the home I think a hi capacity 9mm pistol is the best trade off - more potent than something smaller, less recoil and more capacity than something bigger (cheaper ammo helps too). Leaves a hand free to turn on lights, open or close doors, work the remote while watching football on TV
Posted by: rmark at November 21, 2012 12:18 PM (wgNcw)
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 12:19 PM (C0alm)
----------So some questions:When learning to shoot a handgun, what would you start with?When looking for a concealed carry weapon, what do you look for?What kind of accuracy (still on a handgun) is good?
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at November 21, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)------------
Start with a .22--Semi-auto or wheelgun doesn't really matter. (You can use a .38 or 9mm without experiencing a lot in the way of recoil, the ammo is just a lot more expensive.)
The best concealed weapon is one that you'll actually carry. Small and light, without sharp edges, and without an exposed hammer. Because there's not much inertia in such a weapon, you want a light load. I would advise a 9mm or .40 in a semi-auto and .38 in a revolver. (I'm currently in lust with the Ruger LCR, but this is YMMV territory.)
The difference in accuracy in weapons is small enough that you don't need to worry about it much. You're by far the greatest variable. Learn the fundamentals by someone who knows what they're doing, and practice, practice, practice.
Posted by: Luke at November 21, 2012 12:20 PM (UE8ht)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 12:23 PM (XDC0v)
I have done everything I said above using a longer barreled pheasant gun with 4, 5, 6 shot, 4 is my preferred load for pheasants, turkeys and home defense. Copper plated 4's as long a shell as the gun allows. 3 inch or 3 1/2 for turkeys 3 or 2 3/4 for pheasants .
Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 21, 2012 12:25 PM (vXqv3)
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 03:21 PM (celt+)
http://preview.tinyurl.com/cu26z2n
----------------
OMG, that's gorgeous.
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 12:25 PM (celt+)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:07 PM (XDC0v)
I have one of those Chinese-type chest pouch belts I use for SKS stripper clips, the weight well-distributed, and can carry 200 rounds without any trouble. A servant or two would be nice, though, if only to beat the bushes and flush out the game.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 12:26 PM (vtiE6)
I'd rather hit slow than miss fast.
Posted by: MarkD at November 21, 2012 12:27 PM (iYBP2)
If you're defending your home against a zombie rabbit invasion, that would be a good choice.
The effectiveness of .410 shotshells out of a short revolver barrel is suspect. I've only seen limited testing of the new .410 defense rounds designed for guns like the Judge, but I consider the effectiveness to be questionable.
I'd rather go with the tried and proven .45LC for defense, and leave the .410 for snakes and other small varmints.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 12:30 PM (XDC0v)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 12:33 PM (XDC0v)
AR-15 clones are ruling high-power competition for a reason. You can make a competition AR for under 2k. Making a .308 M-14 clone into a good comp gun is a 45k project ... and it can all be undone if the M-14's fore stock hits something.
That poor mini-14 isn't even considered as a beginner's rifle.
( note, AR-10 clones in .308 and .260 are starting to make inroads now that more options are available for them )
Yes, the later mini-14s are good rifles. But they aren't in the AR's league for competition.
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (wYVte)
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 12:34 PM (mfWu+)
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 12:35 PM (wYVte)
Or a boat paddle.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:37 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 12:38 PM (wYVte)
Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (BfZ1r)
Yeah, I remember when they were first introduced to the US. The (initially) low price made people question the quality until people actually bought them and discovered they were very good guns.
Wish I bought one back when they were cheap.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 04:30 PM (SY2Kh)
From what I've read, the .410 fired from a Judge is very good for very close range--less than 5 yards. The problem with the Judge (and presumably the new S&W Governor) is that the .45 LC is in too long a cylinder and has to 'jump' the extra distance occupied by the .410 shell. As a result, even the .45 LC (a great caliber, btw) is inaccurate even at short distances.
This is essentially Internet heresay since I personally don't own a Judge because I don't like the hybridization of calibers for a single pistol. Give me a .410 or give me a .45 LC. Don't try to give me both. Yes, I know, a .357 revolver can accommodate a .38 Spl. cartridge. A .44 mag can shoot .44 Spl. That isn't what I'm talking about.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 12:40 PM (vtiE6)
Yes, .22 lr accuracy is VERY ammo dependent.
International and NRA small bore competitors almost all use Anschutz rifles, with a few poor folks using severely tricked up 10-22s.
But their ammo choices are all dependent on testing more than anything else. The top competitors will find a brand their rifle likes, and then buy several bricks of it, and weigh to the nearest .001 grams and sort by weight the individual rounds.
The outliers are given away, and the mass of rounds in the middle of the cartridge weight bell curve are the ones used.
Most folks have poor results with high velocity hollowpoints, as they tend to have a lot of fliers due to variable bullet weight. If your rifle likes them, though, enjoy.
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 12:46 PM (wYVte)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 12:49 PM (bxiXv)
I know what you mean. A gun that offers half-assed performance with two different calibers doesn't appeal to me.
I can see the appeal as a snake gun, but otherwise I'm surprised that the Judge was so popular. Too big and heavy for concealed carry, not particularly accurate with bullets and not very powerful with shot shells.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 12:50 PM (SY2Kh)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 12:51 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 12:52 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 01:00 PM (K4AdI)
Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 21, 2012 01:04 PM (g3thj)
You may want to try buying a box of Eley TENEX, or Remington Club Extra ( also made by Eley ). If they will feed in your beast, you might find your groups tightening up.
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 01:04 PM (wYVte)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 04:23 PM (XDC0v)
--------------------------
Huh? The AR-15 was being used in Vietnam four years before the Mini-14 was even designed.
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 01:05 PM (celt+)
Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 01:07 PM (GX2fm)
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 01:08 PM (wYVte)
One of my favorite rounds is the .243win. Soft recoil, good on deer out to 250 yards with a 100grain bullet, great on coyotes and prairie dogs with something lighter. It is not a gun I would push into the hands of an inexperienced hunter who wants something for deer hunting. However, Gun Counter Guy typically highly recommends the .243win for youth hunters (and women) because of the light recoil.
It would be better to get the kid started on a .25-06, .257Roberts, 7mm-08, or any number of other low recoil rounds that can throw 120-140grain bullets in the 3000fps range. The .243 at 200+ yards is not a great cartridge for a deer unless its standing perfectly broadside.
Gun Counter Guy doesn't take into account women's hands when recommending conceal carry pistols. Racking the slide can be difficult for them. Gun Counter Guy almost always seems to know that women shouldn't handle anything larger than a .380.
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 01:10 PM (mfWu+)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 04:49 PM (bxiXv)
It depends on the topic, really. If you're talking schools of thought, I trust those sourcing Elmer Keith if the topic is bullets and ballistics. The 1911? Jeff Cooper, since the 1911 seems to have been his life's obsession. Point shooting? Applegate. And so on. There are authorities, some living. It's just a matter of wading through the nonsense to find the good stuff, and you can usually tell the good, authoritative stuff when you see it.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 01:11 PM (vtiE6)
If he was shooting at said squirrels with a centerfire rifle, then that would be different. A .308 or .311 bullet dropping at terminal velocity has the same foot pounds as a .32 pistol round, and can kill.
People get killed by celebratory fire in the mideast all the time for exactly that reason.
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 01:15 PM (wYVte)
Posted by: ConcealedKerry or SubMitt at November 21, 2012 01:15 PM (g3thj)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 01:16 PM (2CiZb)
Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 01:17 PM (RYVE/)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 01:19 PM (2CiZb)
Posted by: teej still says go K-State at November 21, 2012 01:21 PM (RYVE/)
Posted by: jake in ID at November 21, 2012 01:23 PM (2CiZb)
Posted by: Rusty at November 21, 2012 01:26 PM (2SXYw)
If he was shooting at said squirrels with a centerfire rifle, then that would be different. A .308 or .311 bullet dropping at terminal velocity has the same foot pounds as a .32 pistol round, and can kill.
People get killed by celebratory fire in the mideast all the time for exactly that reason.
Posted by: Kristophr at November 21, 2012 05:15 PM (wYVte)
---------------
Mythbusters covered this. Mostly busted. Falling rifle rounds could give you a nasty bump on the head, but that's it. The (very few) fatalities involved (they could find only one) were from bullets that didn't go straight up, but in an arcing trajectory, and retained their stability (still spinning). Once they tumble, they're losing energy fast.
Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at November 21, 2012 01:28 PM (celt+)
Elmer Keith?
Met him at the 78 or 79 SHOT Show in KC, MO. He was a nice enough guy. Never could get over his hatred of Jack O'Connor. Keith tried to get under Jack's skin whenever he could, sometimes mailing letters to him directly. I like ig bullets too, but calling the .270 "an adequate coyote rifle" was alittle over the top.
Posted by: Alamo at November 21, 2012 01:33 PM (C0alm)
Posted by: DAve at November 21, 2012 01:40 PM (XDC0v)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at November 21, 2012 01:42 PM (bxiXv)
"Never could get over his hatred of Jack O'Connor."
Some of those 'gun world' resentments and rivalries strike me as particularly childish, especially when coming from otherwise notable and honorable men. For example, Rex Applegate, Fairbairn and Sykes point-shooting disciple, loathed Jeff Cooper and Cooper's 'modern technique'. The feeling seems to have been mutual on Cooper's part.
I always admired Agent Jelly Bryce, the famous FBI gunfighter and one of the fastest draws and best handgun shots who ever lived. He just did it his way and came home alive every night. Problems arose when the FBI trained its agents to Bryce's style, which couldn't really be replicated.
Posted by: troyriser at November 21, 2012 01:47 PM (vtiE6)
Unless you're hunting wide open country in Montana or something, the vast majority of deer are taken inside of 150 yards. A new hunter isn't likely to be taking 250+ yard shots anyways.
Besides, there's not that much difference between .25-06, .257 Roberts and the .243 Win in terms of velocity and muzzle energy.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at November 21, 2012 01:51 PM (SY2Kh)
The longer and heavier bullets that the .257 Roberts, .25-06, and 7mm-08 can throw means a better BC, leading to better retained energy downrange - more importantly, they will drift less in higher winds so you don't have to dope for wind as much (if at all).
Since many novice hunters are less likely to know the limitations of their rifle and their abilities, giving them a mild cartridge that can overcome those limitations is important.
As I said thought, I love the .243, it was my first rifle (I grew up on a .30-06 but it wasn't mine).
As for the 150yd shot - its not just Montana. Try hunting anywhere in Kansas west of Manhattan. The land is wide open and there is next to no cover. Even most of eastern Kansas consists of wide open fields.
Posted by: Mauser757 at November 21, 2012 02:34 PM (mfWu+)
Posted by: Billy Dixon at November 21, 2012 02:42 PM (ZHBVn)
I think you missed my point. My argument was that a stock mini-14 is better than a stock AR-15.
Does the AR-15 have more aftermarket options? Sure, and I noted that.
Most people don't have much use for a competition rifle (or tactical rails, for that matter).
Does it have variants in different calibers? Yes, but that's an AR-15 variant, not an AR-15. (Likely the AR-10, LAR-8 or SR-25 for those watching the discussion.)
If I have to pull a mini-14 or an AR-15 straight out of the box and use it, I'm using the mini-14. It'll work better, and last longer, with fewer problems along the way.
(IMO) if you're going to do competition, buy a match-grade M1 Garand for about the same price as a match-grade AR-15. Longer barrel, better round, and less that can go wrong.
If you're just going for accuracy at range, a heavy-barrel bolt action rifle can be bought and tweaked for around a grand. (Well, before you start shopping for scopes, anyway. But the same applies to your examples and the Garand example.)
Of course, I'm biased. I carried a M16A2 for four years, and was a marksmanship coach for part of it. I hate the thing, and all its cousins. It's flimsy, the gas system makes an unholy mess, and the spring-loaded ejector is a problem waiting to happen.
Posted by: Luke at November 21, 2012 03:34 PM (UE8ht)
Posted by: MoJoTee at November 21, 2012 03:54 PM (e1kfW)
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at November 21, 2012 04:26 PM (yh0zB)
Posted by: Wodun at November 21, 2012 05:54 PM (PEpU8)
I just bought a Magnum Research MLR-1722 rifle which is based on the 10-22. It has a carbon fiber barrel, a polymer thumbhole stock, and lots of other cool features. It weighs about 4.5 pounds, and handles like a dream.
Posted by: Raoul Duke at November 21, 2012 10:42 PM (W+QzX)
Posted by: nick at November 21, 2012 11:17 PM (jfe0a)
Posted by: perturbed at November 22, 2012 12:41 AM (9EtrG)
I know this is an old thread now but I didn't see it at time. This is for all who want advice on starting. . .
I just flew out to Sig Sauer Academy in New Hampshire. You pay for the class, use their guns.
I took 101 Intro to handguns. You learn - 8 hour class. Last hour is shooting.
Next day I took 102 - intro to defensive handgun. You take this class you will be comfortable shooting. You will learn to clean also. You will shoot around 300 rounds. 8 hour class. You will eventually work from holster and ranges out to 25 yards - with timed exercises shooting pop of plates in competition with your firing line neighbor.
You get to pick from what ever gun they make. In 102 you buy the ammo, but its pretty cheap. You can bring your own gun if you want.
They give you 20% discount on guns at proshop. I got a P229 Elite. (Beavertail, short reset trigger and E2 grip for my small racoon hands.)
They also teach rifle and shotgun. Sig Sauer Academy - google it.
Posted by: simpleton at November 22, 2012 08:04 AM (za3QZ)
Posted by: Judge Roy Bean at November 22, 2012 03:57 PM (Sedwk)
Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top
64 queries taking 0.3076 seconds, 622 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.
Posted by: eastvalleyphx just loves him some LIB at November 21, 2012 08:11 AM (GRvW4)