1 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

2 We can just dismiss everything CK says here because he's, you know, a RINO!!!!!

3 The Kraut hits this one out of the park

4 One thing Kraut misses is that religious freedom is granted to individuals - not just or specifically to churches or other religious institutions. Aside from that gaffe the boy is spot on. It is do or die time with SCOTUS. If they declare it unconstitutional, it will more than likely be a 5-4 vote, and the reaction will be 10,000 times more vituperative than Bush v Gore 2000. I hope Anthony Kennedy is still pissed over his treatment at the 2010 SOTU speech.

5 What kind of arguments?  That sounds like first base to me.

6 I wish it would be televised. Why not? We had a whole summer of the Ollie North trial.

7 The court needs to go back to Wickard v Filburn and start over.

8 That's why I was rather surprised at yesterday's SCOTUS decision slapping down the EPA - it was 9-0. This can either bode well, or ill. Gevalt.

9 Can't wait for the decision(s) to come down. What a mish-mash of pluralities, partial dissents and concurrences this is going to be. Oh and of course the requisite self-aggrandizing kvetching from Kennedy.

10 The whole, NObama is just the symptom not the disease etc..  my take:

Under FDR the country got Aids virus,  During the 60-lbj, it activated and started destroying most of our natural immune systems from patriotism-media-courts-education.   Obama is simply a particularly nasty pneumonia that's probably gonna push us over the hill.

11 >>> "Ultimately, the question will hinge on whether the Commerce Clause has any limits. If the federal government can compel a private citizen, under threat of a federally imposed penalty, to engage in a private contract with a private entity (to buy health insurance), is there anything the federal government cannot compel the citizen to do?"

The federal government can do anything? 

Can they compel my girlfriend to give me a hummer once in a while? 

They're free, by the way. 

12 Posted by: Cicero at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (yQwq5) Jeez, how about Kormatsu or Dred Scot?

13 How did I leave out Roe v Wade?

14 I can't wait until a repub president requires everybody to purchase a firearm and receive a concealed carry permit.

Just waiting on SCOTUS to give it permission.

15 If you don't want your kids to be tributes in the 2013 Obama Games, you better make sure your state votes true blue.

16 In a one page article CK managed to argue the case against OCare.  This one is a keeper.

17 This will not end well. 5-4 against us.

18 The MFM is in full court press mode trying to somehow sway the justices, particularly Kennedy.

19

The Reckoning.

 

There can be only one.

20 We had a whole summer of the Ollie North trial.

Ollie North was grilled in congressional hearings then tried in a federal court.  His SCOTUS case was an appeal to throw out his conviction based on the immunity given for his congressional testimony.

The only SCOTUS case I know of which got televised is Bush v Gore in 2000.

21

And oh, BTW, Axelrod is trying to start a race war:

 

; text-decoration: underline;">'IF I HAD A SON, HE'D LOOK LIKE TRAYVON'

 

 

22 it would be nice if the court does their job and I don't have to go the civil disobedience route.

23 I've got your oral argument right here.

Swallow.

24

Uh, I need some good distractions. .....Is there a news story that envolves Race that I can exploit?

25 Posted by: Cicero at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (yQwq5)

Nice.

And very, very true.

26 14 Posted by: Guy Mohawk at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (SuBE0) THIS.

27 18 The MFM is in full court press mode trying to somehow sway the justices, particularly Kennedy.

I doubt it is going to happen.  I think Kennedy is still pissed at Obama over the Citizens United bullshit and I doubt he wants to give him any cover on this crap.

28 If SCOTUS lets OCare stand gun sales will go through the roof.  There will be nothing that will stop the government from controlling every facet of our lives. They will be drunk with power more than they are right now.  I fear for our country.

29 in a More Perfect World they smack it down 5-3 ( with that fat cow recusing )

30 21
And oh, BTW, Axelrod is trying to start a race war:

'IF I HAD A SON, HE'D LOOK LIKE TRAYVON'

I don't think this is going to help them as much as they think it will.

The idiot who killed Trayvon is Hispanic.  If they start a black-Hispanic race war, it won't help Obama much in states like Florida.

31  That's why I was rather surprised at yesterday's SCOTUS decision slapping down the EPA - it was 9-0.

This can either bode well, or ill.

Gevalt.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 23, 2012 11:45 AM (Af3Wg)

 

 

That vote was cover for what's to come.  The Communists on the court can then point to the 9-0 vote to show they're fair.

32 In other words: the entire future of American Liberty lies in the hands of Justice Kennedy.

33 What's any of this matter someone that Romney knew made a joke about an ecsh a sketch

34 Did anyone hear something about Sotomayor subborning perjury?  I thought I heard something like that.

35 I was in Oklahoma and Ohio yesterday. ...Those people were so nice, they didn't say a thing about the crowds I bussed in for my photo ops.

36 I don't think this is going to help them as much as they think it will.
Agree.  The cynical exploitation of a tragic situation is just to obvious. 

37 27 Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at March 23, 2012 11:50 AM (e0xKF) That is sort of where my gut feeling is. Yeah, Pollyanna and all that. But that 9-0 decision striking at the EPA's power really is a puzzler. Either it's a bellwether or political cover. I am a nervous wreck.

38

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">Can they compel my girlfriend to give me a hummer once in a while?

They're free, by the way.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (KNtHw)

 

Nothing is ever free.  ThatÂ’s why the hummers are few and far between.  All women are the same, the only thing that varies is the amount and method of payment.

39 So who gets to argue in front of the Supremes for the good guys and the bad?

40 even ABC News ran a photo of Zimmerman ( not Dylan ) as an OH / M, N-W

Obvious Hispanic / Mestizo, Non-White.  ----- Brown on Black violence...

41

It boils down pretty easily.  Citizen, or serf?  Which is it that the government views us as?  Not just one segment of government, but the whole of it.  From the legislature that passed it, to the president who signed it, to the agencies that will enforce it, and to the court that upholds it. 

If this Intolerable Act is upheld, know that all of government see you and  I as serfs.

What will you do when that realization hits home?

42 "Hot Air" being promoted on Hot Air, per se.

43 I consider it a bad omen that Kagan is not recused when she had a hand in crafting the POS. Ever since Clinton, everything hinges on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

44 Can they compel my girlfriend to give me a hummer once in a while? They're free, by the way. Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (KNtHw) The question is can the Federal Government compel your girlfriend to give ME a hummer?

45

I don't think this is going to help them as much as they think it will.

 

Everything they've tried has blown up in their face.  They're turning this into a White House op, just like Fluke.

 

And if it's a Bad Thing for Rush Limbaugh to say slut, then why is it no problem for another national media personality, Al Sharpton, to go to Florida and gin up violence?

46 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

47 The idiot who killed Trayvon is Hispanic. If they start a black-Hispanic race war, it won't help Obama much in states like Florida.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at March 23, 2012 11:51 AM (e0xKF)

************

He's half-white, therefore he's a white supremacist racist.

Oh, wait....

48 new rule:  All peeps named 'Zimmerman' are White ( including you, Bob )

49 30 21 And oh, BTW, Axelrod is trying to start a race war:'IF I HAD A SON, HE'D LOOK LIKE TRAYVON' I don't think this is going to help them as much as they think it will. The idiot who killed Trayvon is Hispanic. If they start a black-Hispanic race war, it won't help Obama much in states like Florida. I have to disagree most stories I see don't mention he is Hispanic, and if they do they point out Sanford has a history of racial tensions with the cops (of course all white) and AA's.

50 Waterloo ?

51 Anthony Freakin' Kennedy. Stay pissed, my friend... (voice of the Dos Equis guy, most fascinating man, etc.)

52 I doubt it is going to happen. I think Kennedy is still pissed at Obama over the Citizens United bullshit and I doubt he wants to give him any cover on this crap.

I generally tend to agree, but even so Kennedy is cautious.  I think Obamacare will be gutted (ultimately fatally) but not actually killed.

This might be best because with the mandate out, it becomes completely unworkable, the phony deficit projections get thrown out the window and there will be a broad consensus that it must be completely disintegrated.

Maybe that's wishcasting.

53 The question is can the Federal Government compel your girlfriend to give ME a hummer?

Line forms the left buddy.

54 I have to disagree most stories I see don't mention he is Hispanic
--
But the Hispanic media (at least some) has been mentioning it...

55 speaking of oral arguments and blow jobs... here's your quote for the day: “No look, here’s the deal. Nobody can look you in the eye and tell you that the recovery act and that stimulus did not create jobs and did not do very good things for the economy." --Joe Shitforbrains Biden October 2011

56 Ewww, where's that sock been?

57 Waterloo ?

Posted by: The Jackhole at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (nTgAI)

===STFU

58 The day the decision comes down from SCOTUS is the ultimate fork in the road.  The one path leads us to regain our liberty and freedom the other road is to tyranny.  The fact that this decision is in the hands of 9 black robed lawyers scares the crap out of me.

59 and another one: “But I’ll tell you this, if President Obama and the House congressional Democrats had not acted, we would be at 15 percent unemployment." - Nancy "Our Lady of Perpetual Shock" Pelosi November 2011

60

The point is that Axelrod [and Soros and Blankfein and all the rest of the puppeteers who actually pull the strings] won't hesitate to unleash a race war on the USA.

 

You simply cannot misoverestimate the evil of these people.

 

There's not a dime's worth of difference between them and the folks who murdered the Romanovs & unleashed the Holodomor on the poor Ukrainians.

 

 

 

61 "If Obamacare is upheld, it fundamentally changes the nature of the American social contract."

-------------

Wrong.  It just finishes the job.

That's all.  No fundamental change - that came during the time of Franklin "Delete It" Roosevelt.

62 Google "trayvon" whole first page is all wapo-nyt-huffpo links... so... guess they are gonna get to rewrite that story.

63 Lots and lots of disinformation being spread. I will whore this story one more time, Fluke-like:


Repeated from the previous thread for reference:


233 The ground is being prepared for the meme that the Court will
uphold the individual mandate. The meme now: Conservative legal scholars
privately admit that the Court will narrowly uphold it. Don't know if
this has any basis in reality or is simply a disinformation operation; I
link, you decide: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6tj7jdd

64

45.....And if it's a Bad Thing for Rush Limbaugh to say slut, then why is it no problem for another national media personality, Al Sharpton, to go to Floridaand gin up violence?

 

Because....Rush doesn't have a Race Card, silly. ....And Sharpton does.

 

When the Race Card is played, everyone must drop to their knees and bow their heads.

65

Oral Argument against ObamaCare:

 

It's stupid, destructive, obviously un-Constitutional and un-American.  Everybody knows this.

66 disagree with WHAT ?? 

Look at the photo ABC showed.  It was the lede story Wednesday on the national news..  Zimmerman ain't no way no White dude

67 @62
So what?  It isn't as if their readers would vote GOP anyway.

68 The fact that this decision is in the hands of 9 black robed lawyers scares the crap out of me.

It's not.  The latest decision is in the hand of 9 black robed lawyers.

The ultimate decision is still up to us.

69 The Nine have left Minas Morgul.

70

Ultimately, the question will hinge on whether the Commerce Clause has any limits.

 

Actually, this has nothing to do with whether the Commerce Clause has liimits but how insane people are willing to be to call something "interstate commerce" in an obviously stupid and disingenuous fashion.  It has nothing to do with the actual commerce clause, though.

71 One quibble.  "questionable constitutionality".  It isn't questionable, it is unequivocally unconstitutional.  I don't need the SCOTUS to tell me that fact, I need them to acknowledge that fact.

72 I fear that people are going to die in wholesale lots before the fundamental issue is resolved.  Who is sovereign, that is all that matters.

73 62 Google "trayvon" whole first page is all wapo-nyt-huffpo links... so... guess they are gonna get to rewrite that story. This

74 The MFM is in full court press mode trying to somehow sway the justices, particularly Kennedy.
I doubt it is going to happen. I think Kennedy is still pissed at Obama over the Citizens United bullshit and I doubt he wants to give him any cover on this crap.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at March 23, 2012 11:50 AM (e0xKF)

I was just getting ready to post this.  They are in full "sway the justices" mode.

http://tinyurl.com/7j6bmbu

75 - Nancy "Our Lady of Perpetual Shock" Pelosi
November 2011

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:58 AM (jUytm)

So very stolen.

76

The MFM is in full court press mode trying to somehow sway the justices, particularly Kennedy.
I doubt it is going to happen. I think Kennedy is still pissed at Obama over the Citizens United bullshit and I doubt he wants to give him any cover on this crap.

 

My guess is they try to split the baby by (a) ruling the mandate unconstitutional and (b) ruling the law is severable so that everything else can stand. Which means that as soon as Democrats get back in control they will enact an actual tax to replace the mandate and we are back to square one.

 

Or the court could completely chicken out and decide that they won't make a decision until an individual who refuses the mandate files suit in a couple of years.

 

I am sure the cowardly Republicans are hoping that the Supreme Court will do their jobs for them.

77 This is a Big Fuckin' Deal.

78

ItÂ’s amazing that the left hasnÂ’t photoshopped Zimmerman into a Tea Party rally picture yet.  They would consider it “fake but accurate”.

79 Why do they want national health care so badly?

Because if they restrict it to a state, the suckers who pay for it can leave.

80 In other words: the entire future of American Liberty lies in the hands of Justice Kennedy.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at March 23, 2012 11:51 AM (rVkN0)

That's just how we drew it up, baby.

81 There was an Idea called America, and then there was America, and now there is merely a Memory of America.

82

Also left unmentioned is the [apparent] fact that little Amish Angel Brings-A-Granny-Smith-Apple-To-His-Teacher "Trayvon" was in the process of beating Zimmerman to within an inch of his life when Zimmerman decided to pull the trigger.

 

But Axelrod and his lackeys in the MFM have decided that they are willing to unleash a race are in order to stay in power and finish their work on the destruction of the USA.

 

Cannot. Misoverestimate. Evil.

 

83 Sort of interesting that the individual mandate was created by Republicans in the early 90s. What a bunch of complete fucking hypocrites.

84 Why do they want national health care so badly?

Because the moment you're reliant upon the State for your health care, you cease being a citizen and become a serf.  And they've wanted us all to be serfs since they were still called "Royalists" in the late 18th Century.

85 Because....Rush doesn't have a Race Card, silly. ....And Sharpton does.

When the Race Card is played, everyone must drop to their knees and bow their heads.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 11:59 AM (4GgJq)

Hell, I can even talk about the Hymies and greek homos with no problems.  I got the CARD!

86 "Questionable constitutionality"?  I don't see where there's any question.  Even liberals are admitting that it's not constitutional, they just don't care.

87 78
--
They did try to tie him to an NRA program...

88 And Obama explains why we should be thanking him for his economic genius: "Now, every economist who has looked at it has said that the recovery did its job "It put a brake on the collapse of the economy. We avoided a Great Depression. We are now growing again. The problem is, No. 1, itÂ’s hard to argue sometimes, things would have been a lot worse. Right? So people kind of say, yeah, but unemployment is still at 9.6. Yes, but itÂ’s not 12 or 13, or 15." -- Obama June 2010

89 Yep, this one is simple: the court rules or it interprets.  One or the other, and depending on how this case concludes, we'll know whether we live in a Constitutional Republic anymore or not. 

90 >>> "If this Intolerable Act is upheld, know that all of government see you and I as serfs."

Dude, we've been serfs since 1913.  Central banking + income taxation = monetary slavery. 

We're forced to use governmental monopoly debt-paper as "money."  So, you are born in debt, and operate in a sea of debt.  No one is allowed to use anything other than this governmentally-chartered debt as money. 

That same government also claims the right to take a portion of our incomes, which it then uses to service this debt, and to maintain the market value of its debt-paper.  Being compelled to use the paper, and pay taxes in paper, we are forced into the paper-money system.  And everything this same government borrows to pay for ... whatever it feels like (Solyndra, I'm looking at you) ... is repaid with money derived directly from our labor.

Central banking and income taxation work together. 

Making us dependent on the State for medical care is only one more layer of control.  But it's by far not the first. 

91 Our Orwellian future is much less intimidating when you substitute the image of a  jackboot on your neck with a one of a tassled loafer or a pink Croc.

92

Eric Holder's people will argue that the Federal Govt has "the right to Tax"....and that the individual mandate is within the definition of a 'tax'.

 

This will be politically bad, of course......since Barky has gone on record to say that it is "not a Tax". .....But I think they will set that aside for the time being, in order to try to win this.

93 Why do they want national health care so badly?


"ItÂ’s an obsession with Democrats to nationalize everything: healthcare, welfare, the speed limit, abortion, the drinking age - so thereÂ’s no escape. Like all totalitarians, the DemocratsÂ’ position is: We thought up something we know will work better than anything anyone's done for the last 30,000 years. We donÂ’t know why no one else thought of it. We must be smarter. That is why the history of liberalism consists of replacing things that work with things that sounded good on paper." -The Formerly Sane and Funny Ann Coulter

94 Also left unmentioned is the [apparent] fact that little Amish Angel Brings-A-Granny-Smith-Apple-To-His-Teacher "Trayvon" was in the process ofbeating Zimmerman to within an inch of his life when Zimmerman decided to pull the trigger.


This isn't how I heard it. What's your source?

95 And erg's got nuthin' but tears, sweet sweet tears.

96 ObamaCare makes me wet.

97 Hell, I can even talk about the Hymies and greek homos with no problems. I got the CARD!

No, the Card lets you go start riots when gang-bangers get killed.

It's blackdemocratium that allows you to use racial epithets without fear of reprisal.

98 The race baiting and trying to start a race riot in Florida really scares me. As for the USSC, they will rule as narrowly as they can. That's just the way they roll....

99

race are = race war

 

100 96 ObamaCare makes me wet.

Posted by: Elena Kagan at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (wAQA5)

I thought that softball did that to you.

101
I am sure the cowardly Republicans are hoping that the Supreme Court will do their jobs for them.
Posted by: Connor MacLeod



House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) issued the following statement ahead of ObamaCareÂ’s two-year anniversary:

ObamaCare has already proven unpopular and unaffordable, and my hope is that the law’s cornerstone – the individual mandate – will be ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Speaker.gov 

102 Finally, here's Joe Biden's brilliant argument for Obama's $450B Son of Stimulus "jobs bill" proposed in 2011: “Look, we should be doing all of this stuff even if we were growing by 8 percent, even if there was a 3 percent unemployment rate in America.”

103 93 Eric Holder's people will argue that the Federal Govt has "the right to Tax"....and that the individual mandate is within the definition of a 'tax'. This will be politically bad, of course......since Barky has gone on record to say that it is "not a Tax". .....But I think they will set that aside for the time being, in order to try to win this. It was already set aside and our media is covering it up.

104 I have no confidence that SCOTUS will rule against obamacare

America is doomed

I'll be dead, but over the next 20-30 years, you young bucks are fucked

United Socialist States of America

105 The 9-0 decision about the EPA wasn't about property owner freedom.  It was about power of the courts to adjudicate EPA decisions.

They followed that one up with a new layer make work decision.

From yesterday's news posts

In other Supreme Court case decisions yesterday the court expanded rights of criminals to get free lawyers.  They can now get free lawyers for plea bargaining.(another 5-4 wonder)

 

http://is.gd/PMdy3U

106

Can they compel my girlfriend to give me a hummer once in a while?

---

If you're standing in California and she kneels in Oregon during the act then sounds like they can

If you're standing in California and she kneels in Washington during the act then wow...just wow

107 "all of this stuff" "this stuff" Stuff. We should be doing stuff. Our vice president, ladies and gentlemen.

108 the local TV news in Orlando ( Sanford is an emerging slum on the eastern fringe of Orlando ) said TayVoNN was on five-day suspension from school

staying with his 'estranged father' in that area because he was 'involved in gang activity' where he was living. 

109 98 The race baiting and trying to start a race riot in Florida really scares me.

As for the USSC, they will rule as narrowly as they can. That's just the way they roll.... Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM

That won't work for the SCOAMF like he hopes if we get a repeat of last summer with black mobs attacking white shoppers in Chicago and other cities

If that happens, there'll be a lot of people quietly wanting to do what Zimmerman did

110 Whatever.

111 If the government can make you get liability insurance for your car, is there anything it can't do???  All is lost.

112 The Formerly Sane and Funny Ann Coulter

pfffffft.   Also a RINO!!!!!!!

113 As usual the SCOAMF and the usual suspects are ratcheting up the rhetoric to 11 with the death of Trayvon.  The militant black community has been waiting for something like this so it will excuse their behavior. The rioting is coming to a city near you, prepare yourself.  If SCOAMF doesn't get reelected in November I predict looting, burning, beatings and death.  Obama will sit back and smile.

114

Why do they want national health care so badly?

 

Because 'health care' provides the perfect vehicle by which Total Control over every aspect of our lives can be accomplished.

 

You dare to question the wonderfulness of the Government? ....No health care for you!

 

You dare to eat a cheeseburger or smoke a cigarette? ....No health care for you!

 

In order to know who is "putting their health at risk"....the government must be able to monitor every aspect of your life. ....And the government must have the ultimate power to determine 'what' is healthy, and what is not.

115 Posted by: Ranginess at March 23, 2012 12:09 PM (1d6WV) Go fuck yourself

116 there was a piece on Drudge, written by someone from yahoo, about why the court may uphold obamacare. the interesting thing is that it was written by yahoo canada. the piece lays out the full range of possibilities but, in my opinion greatly overstates the likelihood. It is a bad piece of legislation, as legislation goes. It would be doing everyone involved a favor if they rule the entire thing void.

117 If the government can make you get liability insurance for your car, is there anything it can't do??? All is lost.

If they can, and you don't even own a car, then, yes, all is lost.

Also, Average Joe sucks cock by choice.

118 94 Also left unmentioned is the [apparent] fact that little Amish Angel Brings-A-Granny-Smith-Apple-To-His-Teacher "Trayvon" was in the process ofbeating Zimmerman to within an inch of his life when Zimmerman decided to pull the trigger. ---- Zimmerman instigated it when he ignored instructions from the police dispatcher and decided to pursue on foot rather than stay in his car and monitor from a safe distance. This was not a political act (unless it turns out that the authorities stalled investigation for political reasons) so it's a shame that some folks are politicizing. However, as far as the criminality of what he did goes, it does not sound like it was self-dense, either. It's a mistake for conservatives to champion Zimmerman's cause. They should encourage letting the system work and leave it at that.

119

"This isn't how I heard it. What's your source?"

GOOGLE: trayvon beating zimmerman

I get "About 20,300,000 results".

Sorry, though, but the AoSHQ software package won't even let me post a cold link to it [much less a hot link].

120 I am a dumb shit. Ignore me. Posted by: Ranginess

121 <<If the government can make you get liability insurance for your car, is there anything it can't do??? All is lost.>>

That's an apples to assholes argument.

122 103 93 Eric Holder's people will argue that the Federal Govt has "the right to Tax"....and that the individual mandate is within the definition of a 'tax'.

This will be politically bad, of course......since Barky has gone on record to say that it is "not a Tax". .....But I think they will set that aside for the time being, in order to try to win this.

It was already set aside and our media is covering it up.

SCOTUS will take into consideration the administration's rhetoric when writing up the bill in order to judge its intent.  This flip-flop from "It's not a tax!" to "It's a tax!" will not be looked upon favorably.

123 That won't work for the SCOAMF like he hopes if we get a repeat of last summer with black mobs attacking white shoppers in Chicago and other cities

If that happens, there'll be a lot of people quietly wanting to do what Zimmerman did

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:09 PM (Y+DPZ)

Remember: They moved the G-8 Summit but the NATO summit is still in Chicago. Happy spring!

124 Martin was beating him,but Zimmerman chased him,at night.The whole thing was avoidable,Zimmerman wanted to play cop.

125 It's a mistake for conservatives to champion Zimmerman's cause.
--
Who's doing that?  (That is an actual question not a retort.)

126 Funny isn't it? When a black kid gets shot he's always an honor student who spent his free time working in a homeless shelter and dreamed of becoming a preacher or a Peace Corps volunteer.

Nope, none of them were ever involved in gang activity, never even heard of drugs and never committed a crime

I remember when NY Daily News muckracker and drunk Jimmy Breslin was horrified at all the support Bernie Goetz was getting from Noo Yawkahs. He tried to paint Goetz as a racist paranoid who shot four innocent kids because they were black.

Didn't help his case when he interviewed one of the darling angels in the hospital who admitted they were going to rob Goetz "because he looked easy"

127 @108 Zimmerman did not witness any criminal activity. He should have stopped at reporting to police.

128 The wisest course of action for us regarding Zimmerman is to start this meme: Justice for Trayvon, and shut up Al Sharpton. It puts us on the right side of two issues.

129 >>>" 111 If the government can make you get liability insurance for your car, is there anything it can't do??? All is lost."

I don't own a car.  No one forces me to buy any liability insurance.  

And liability insurance exists for the benefit of others, not me, since driving a car is an ultra-hazardous activity, seeing as how it is the No. 1 cause of death for all age groups under age 45.  You have to have insurance to use explosives to demolish buildings, too (which is actually a safer practice than driving). 

But if I draw breath in the open-air prison formerly known as the USA, then I MUST buy whatever bullshit "insurance" they want to put together. 

Which is not really insurance, since it takes no account of risk whatsoever, and therefore cannot connect the "premiums" to anyone's degree of risk.So, calling Obamacare "insurance" is another lie. 

And forced car insurance is unconstitutional, too, shit-stack.  The fact that some statist whore in a black robe says otherwise really means nothing to me. 

130 If Affirmative Action is constitutional, then the constitution is just a sheet of old shitpaper.

131 Zimmerman instigated it when he ignored instructions from the police dispatcher and decided to pursue on foot rather than stay in his car and monitor from a safe distance.

 Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM

When seconds count, the police are there in minutes

132 Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (5H6zj)


Conservatives want 'the system' to 'work'--without race-baiters and the Usual Suspects 'politicizing' it.  ---It wasn't conservatives who made this a national political cause

133 The first indicator that the health care bill would cost us more money for less care was the fact that it was a national health care bill. The second was that it was put forth by the democrats. The third is simply the title: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Duh!

134 This is where we are headed.  We all know the Muslims respect life, right???

Via Weasel Zippers.

Link at my name.

135 I've been hearing a lot of stuff about how George Zimmerman is white, but technically he's a mixed hispanic.  If the news media is insisting that he's white for political purposes, then what does that make Obama?

136 I don't want to champion anything but the news report on this site interviews the eye witness who saw the kid on top of Zimmerman beating him up and he ran inside to call 911 when he heard the gun shot and saw the person "beating up the guy in the red sweater" laying in the grass. 

At least give all the facts. 

http://tinyurl.com/6wcn76k

137

"It's a mistake for conservatives to champion Zimmerman's cause. They should encourage letting the system work and leave it at that."

 

You mean it's a mistake for "conservatives" to fail to defend their own castles [much less their wives & daughters] from worthless little thugs like Trayvon?

 

Maybe you'd like Trayvon's would-be baby daddy to come over and tuck you into bed each night [like he for David Cameron]: Tell you bedtime stories, and sing you lullabies, and play a little game of "Pull Daddy's, ah, 'Finger' (wink-wink)"?

 

And to think that this was supposed to have been a Mil-Con blog.

 

 

 

 

138 Zimmerman is not a good guy, at least based on what we know now. He went too far. This is being politicized for two reasons: To attack FL's Stand Your Ground law and to give Bambi a distraction. This whole boondoggle should be attacked on those grounds, but defending Zimmerman's actions is not possible.

139 what does that make Obama?

A SCOAMF

140 That won't work for the SCOAMF like he hopes if we get a repeat of last summer with black mobs attacking white shoppers in Chicago and other cities If that happens, there'll be a lot of people quietly wanting to do what Zimmerman did Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:09 PM (Y+DPZ) I think that is a real concern. I think the mfm and the left have been banging the zimmerman thing like a drum because they want to cause race problems as we head into the election. it is curious that they thought florida was a good place, perhaps they are desperate. I would think riots and race violence would make florida voters less inclined to vote for zero. Maybe they were desperate for a crisis. Also, there is a story on Drudge about a letter from zimmerman's father to the local paper. apparently he is indeed hispanic, comes from a family with hispanic and african American memebers, and has african American neighbors vouching for him. oh snap.

141

This Trayvon stuff is just camoflage for the Left.

Obama is now on it 24/7. He needs the cover.

Last week Fluke, now this.

Let's stay on fucking topic.

Obamacare is the real issue

142 2 We can just dismiss everything CK says here because he's, you know, a RINO!!!!! Yeah, plus I think he said something positive about Romney once! Mittens! Auuggghhhhh!

143 United Socialist States of America

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (8sCoq)

 

It will be the A]/b]merican Socialist Superstate more appropriately.

144 139 what does that make Obama?

A SCOAMF
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at March 23, 2012 12:18 PM (e0xK



True...true...

145 138 Zimmerman is not a good guy, at least based on what we know now. He went too far. This is being politicized for two reasons: To attack FL's Stand Your Ground law and to give Bambi a distraction. This whole boondoggle should be attacked on those grounds, but defending Zimmerman's actions is not possible. Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 12:18 PM (RD7QR) what do you think you know so far that leads you to believe he is not a good guy?

146 134
---
Another multicultural enrichment!

147 Moby alert.

148

116.....It is a bad piece of legislation, as legislation goes. It would be doing everyone involved a favor if they rule the entire thing void.

 

Without a 'severability clause' in the O-care law....if any part of it is deemed 'unconstitutional', then the whole thing can be tossed out.

 

Apparently, in their haste to get the p-o-s bill passed, in the eleventh hour....the Dems forgot to put in a severability clause.

149

We can just dismiss everything CK says here because he's, you know, a RINO!!!!!

 

More importantly, he's almost always wrong and the few times he is correct he's a year and a half behind everyone with a brain.

150 Maybe you'd like Trayvon's would-be baby daddyto come over and tuck you into bedeach night [like he for David Cameron]: Tell you bedtime stories, and sing you lullabies, and play a little game of "Pull Daddy's, ah, 'Finger' (wink-wink)"?

And to think that this was supposed to havebeen a Mil-Con blog.

Posted by: Barney Frank at March 23, 2012 12:17 PM (F5Rm1)

This is nonsense. Zimmerman went looking for trouble.

151 The Sanford Police Dept reviewed the evidence and decided not to file charges

The parents want to get paid, so they went to the media; the MFM want a Controversy Attracting Viewers, so they're playing up the 'injustice'. 

This is a liberal cause, not a conservative cause.  Race-baiters are making the noise here, not the Right.  ---Get a clue

152 Sonia and I have "oral arguments" after a glass of wine.  Tee hee.

153

I had announced my plan to expeditously solve the George Zimmerman Trayvon Martin situation with Beer Summit II. In retrospect this was obviously not-an-error per se but rather a misjudgment on our part. Since Trayvon is not yet 21, this meeting could not have achieved the goals of my administration.

We are actively scheduling Skittle Summit I (with some Manischewitz for Mr. Zimmerman of course) which shall judiciously resolve the current situation.

 

 

154 Who's doing that? (That is an actual question not a retort.) --------------- Bringing up how this kid was not choir boy, which is completely irrelevant to whether or not he deserved to be pursued and killed by Zimmerman, sure seems like an attempt to argue for extenuating circumstances to me. Zimmerman did not claim he witnessed criminal behavior. He profiled the kid and decided he was suspicious. We can argue about if he should have called police on him, I guess, but once he was on the phone with police and given instructions to not pursue on foot, he crossed a line. If someone - not a police officer - came after me the way that guy did, I would defend myself too. Run-ins with authorities or not, I would have that right.

155 I remember this anecdote from Hollywood screenwriter John Milius after the Rodney King riots. He was something of a pariah because he'd defected from the left and went to the right

"People in this town who refused to talk to me for years were calling me up begging me to sell them one of my guns"

156

If Obama had a son, we'd be paying for his trips to a Cayman Island whorehouse.

And 50 Secret Service agents.

157 32 In other words: the entire future of American Liberty lies in the hands of Justice Kennedy.
---   Thanks, i just soiled my armor

158 You mean it's a mistake for "conservatives" to fail to defend their own castles [much less their wives daughters]from worthless little thugs like Trayvon?

Stormfront is that way, douche ----->>>

159

"It's a mistake for conservatives to champion Zimmerman's cause. They should encourage letting the system work and leave it at that."

 

BTW, the system DID work - the police investigated, noted that Trayvon had bloodied Zimmerman's nose and Zimmerman's back [consistent with Zimmerman having being thrown to the ground and pummeled], listened to the other witness who said that he was so terrified of Trayvon that he couldn't summon the courage to intervene, noted Trayvon's severe [and documented] discipline problems at government school, and...

 

...drum roll please...

 

CHOSE NOT TO FILE CHARGES AGAINST ZIMMERMAN!!!

 

This Axelrod/Soros race war is all about OVERTURNING THE SYSTEM!!!

 

Sheesh.

 

I can't believe that I have to spell this out at an ostensible Mil-Con blog.

 

 

 

160 what do you think you know so far that leads you to believe he is not a good guy?

Posted by: yankeefifth at March 23, 2012 12:19 PM (Z9EHQ)

Poorly worded on my part. I should have written "Zimmerman is not the good guy in this case." By all indications he went after the kid when he should have just stayed in his car and observed.

161 joncelli, Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy.  A cop wannabe, probably, and not smart to follow someone at night after the police dispatcher told him not to

But once he was attacked and being beaten ( according to a witness and his own testimony ) he had a right to defend himself.

162 >>>" but defending Zimmerman's actions is not possible"

When, in the course of investigating a person lurking around residences, looking in windows, and otherwise evading his questioner, that same person physically attacks you, you get to shoot back. 

Even if he was mistaken, self-defense is legitimate unless Zimmerman was the aggressor.

If, on the evidence and facts he is proven to have been the aggressor, then self-defense is not an option, and you have a criminal homicide. 

When the deceased turns out to have been recently expelled for being too violent to remain in school, I am leaning toward saying it's legitimate self-defense. 

163 Reason #1,222,987 why Britain is boned:

Children who speak English as their main language at home are now in the MINORITY in 1,600 schools across Britain

http://tinyurl.com/72mbh3c

164 If I had a son, I wouldn't have to keep paying for rent boys.

165

The question is can the Federal Government compel your girlfriend to give ME a hummer?

---

Can they compel Sandra Fluke to Not give me one?

166 Zimmerman doesn't chase him,nobody gets shot.Pretty simple.

167 58 The day the decision comes down from SCOTUS is the ultimate fork in the road. The one path leads us to regain our liberty and freedom the other road is to tyranny. The fact that this decision is in the hands of 9 black robed lawyers scares the crap out of me.
--- If only we had 9 black, robed lawyers named Clarence Thomas on the SC

168 In Los Angeles, the Mexican gangs have been engaging in ethnic cleansing for years. South Central is now more Hispanic than black.  Over the last few years there have been black kids shot on the street by Mexican gangs in Compton.

What say you, Geraldo?

169 Zimmerman doesn't chase him,nobody gets shot.Pretty simple.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:25 PM (7W3wI)

===yes, but life if often not that simple.  Then what do you do??

170 This is what I know, folks. Every indication is that Zimmerman is in the wrong. Maybe I haven't got enough evidence, but from what we know now excusing Zimmerman is a bad business. Let's not give them any more ammo for a race war than they already have.

171 131 Zimmerman instigated it when he ignored
instructions from the police dispatcher and decided to pursue on foot
rather than stay in his car and monitor from a safe distance.



Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM

Why don't you STFU and go suck some West cock.

172 Poorly worded on my part. I should have written "Zimmerman is not the good guy in this case." By all indications he went after the kid when he should have just stayed in his car and observed.

Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 12:22 PM (RD7QR)

Zimmerman said that he got out of his car to check the name of the street he was on and the kid attacked him from behind (hence the bleeding from the back of the head) and then got on top of him and started beating him (thus the grass stains on his back and blood on his face).  The neighbor was too scared to help so he ran inside.  Zimmerman then shot the kid who was beating him.  This all checked out to the police so they didn't arrest  him.  End of story.

173 154
--
Y-not,
I do not see how discussing reported issues in a case that is now heavily covered in the media is construed as championing the cause of a defendant. It seems to me to be more of a review of media coverage and their motivations. Perhaps I am mistaken.

174

When the Race Card is played, everyone must drop to their knees and bow their heads.

----

Race card me baby! I've been a bad girl

175

I'm sorry

I don't like being played by the MSM and Obama, so I don't give a shit about the Trayvon issue.

Let the locals work that one out.

I do care about Obamacare and the oil prices and our national decline and stuff like that.

176 Who does the oral arguments? Or maybe I should ask, who will do the oral arguments? Don't beat me too hard, I did try to search for the answer.

177 >>>Zimmerman instigated it when he ignored instructions from the police dispatcher and decided to pursue on foot rather than stay in his car and monitor from a safe distance. One is not required to obey orders from a civilian employee. Also, maybe he didn't want to lose sight of him?

178 Let the locals work that one out.
I do care about Obamacare and the oil prices and our national decline and stuff like that.

Posted by: Mr. Wonderful at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (WKTJz)

===that's all I'm asking.  Obama should STFU

179 That he was not a choir boy maybe completely relevant. God knows everyone is bring up shit about Zimmerman and making shit up, too. Why aren't they saying why he was suspended? It sure wasn't for truancy. If it was for theft or for violence, it is relevant.

180 Zimmerman said that he got out of his car to check the name of the street he was on and the kid attacked him from behind (hence the bleeding from the back of the head) and then got on top of him and started beating him (thus the grass stains on his back and blood on his face). The neighbor was too scared to help so he ran inside. Zimmerman then shot the kid who was beating him. This all checked out to the police so they didn't arrest him. End of story.

This is precisely what happened. This place makes me puke lately.

181

"This is nonsense. Zimmerman went looking for trouble."

 

And just WTF do you think the USMC and the USN and the USA have been doing for the last 225-odd years?

 

Sitting around the campfire with their thumbs up their asses being tucked into bed by Trayvon's would-be baby daddy?

 

Zimmerman - the local Neighborhood Watch captain - went looking for "trouble" in the form of a very clear and very present and VERY OBVIOUS threat to his neighborhood.

 

THIS WAS ZIMMERMAN'S JOB!!!

 

Or maybe you'd like the Zimmermans of the world to lay back and "take it" and do nothing as their property is stolen, their wives are raped, and their houses are burned to the ground.

 

Because I can guaran-dadgum-tee you that that is PRECISELY what Axelrod and Soros envision for your immediate future: thievery, rapes, conflagrations and murders.

 

And as you lay there suffering, Axelrod and Soros are just gonna laugh at you all the way to the bank.

 

 

182

90   This   1000   times.

 

 

 

Why do they want national health care so badly?

 

 

Because  the   skyrocketing   medicare/medicaid  costs  are   bankrupting   the   government   and  the   thieves   in  D.C.   want   to  stick   the  middle  class   with   the  bill.  It's  their  attempt   at   forstalling  the  DOOM.   That's  why   the  Rinos  are  talking   about   repeal  and  replace  instead  of  just  repeal.  Neither   half  of   the  big  government   party   want  to  openly  throw  granny  to  the  curb  and   admit   that   their  promises  won't   be   kept.

183
United Socialist States of America
Posted by: Jones


 

California Autonomous Oblast

184

152 just cost me another monitor. That's 3 this week.

 

I love this place.

 

185 what do you think you know so far that leads you to believe he is not a good guy? Posted by: yankeefifth at March 23, 2012 12:19 PM (Z9EHQ) Poorly worded on my part. I should have written "Zimmerman is not the good guy in this case." By all indications he went after the kid when he should have just stayed in his car and observed. Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 12:22 PM (RD7QR) I am inclined to think that zimmerman was mistaken to follow whatshisname. However, if zimmerman did not initiate violence, if the kid hit him first, then zimmerman was engaged in self defense. it is the sad outcome of two idiots in close proximity but it does not make him guilty. it concerns me greatly that so many, even morons, are ascribing so much validity to accounts we are receiving through the mfm. they are clearly not impartial reporters of fact in general and are especially not so in this case. being reasonable and conceding he may not have chosen the best course of action, which I agree with, takes time away from pointing out how the story is being misreported and abused. it is interesting that they even have a castle law in fl. so many things that are common sense have had to be codified because we have swung so far away from reality. if you get shot breaking into someone's home out of an abundance of caution on the homeowner's part too bad for you - do not break into homes. if you physically attack someone who is licensed to carry a gun too bad for you. Now, I do not know who attacked whom, however, if the story I read that said zimmerman had grass stains on his back and was bleeding from the back of his head is true , it is plausible that he was attacked from behind. anyway, no offense intended, just enjoying the discussion.

186 This is precisely what happened. This place makes me puke lately.

So you were there and witnessed the entire episode?  Why didn't you say so?

187 Trayvon was there to leer at our white women!

188

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">135I've been hearing a lot of stuff about how George Zimmerman is white, but technically he's a mixed hispanic. If the news media is insisting that he's white for political purposes, then what does that make Obama?Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 12:17 PM (GQ8sn)

 

ZimmermanÂ’s mother was Peruvian and the father possibly white.  He was adopted by a Jewish couple.

189 Years ago, in Venice, a black man and a hispanic woman got into a fight over a crack pipe. I think she stabbed him in the chest, or vice versa. This set off a gang war between 18th Street and the Crips. resulting in 17 murders in a two year time frame, maybe more. I stopped counting. 18th St won since there are now more latino gangs than black gangs in LA.

190 So you were there and witnessed the entire episode? Why didn't you say so?

Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 23, 2012 12:35 PM (SY2Kh)

No the eyewitnesses interviewed by the police and the physical evidence on Zimmerman's body were all the evidence the police needed.

191

"It is do or die time with SCOTUS. If they declare it unconstitutional, it will more than likely be a 5-4 vote, and the reaction will be 10,000 times more vituperative than Bush v Gore 2000."

 

The stakes are high. I have no faith that they will declare it unconstitutional. Just bucking too much Obama/media/liberal/PC complex pressure to kick this peice of crap in the trash where it belongs.

I look for a loss by a close vote, along political lines, with some tortured reasoning, and a pretty strong dissent by Thomas or Scalia. 

192

@161   Exactly.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept that maybe BOTH Zimmerman AND Trayvon were at fault in this incident? Zimmerman for chasing when he was told not to and Trayvon for assaulting, and beating him without a legal reason.  No, to do not have the legal right to beat the shit out of someone because he profiled and pursued you.

193

"it concerns me greatly that so many, even morons, are ascribing so much validity to accounts we are receiving through the mfm"

 

THIS.

 

Do you suppose they're Axelrodian astroturfers?

 

I can't believe that regulars at a Mil-Con blog would support this idea of "curl up in the fetal position and shove your thumb up your ass at the very first sign of trouble" as some sort of a correct and proper and genteel & well-mannered way of going about the living of your life.

 

I mean, WTF?

 

 

194 Zimmerman instigated it when he ignored instructions from the police dispatcher and decided to pursue on foot rather than stay in his car and monitor from a safe distance. This was not a political act (unless it turns out that the authorities stalled investigation for political reasons) so it's a shame that some folks are politicizing. However, as far as the criminality of what he did goes, it does not sound like it was self-dense, either. It's a mistake for conservatives to champion Zimmerman's cause. They should encourage letting the system work and leave it at that. Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (5H6zj) Y he was not ever ordered not to follow, in the recording I heard it was only a suggestion along the lines of "you do not need to follow". never said do not, should not or anything similar. I do not see many championing zimmerman. he is being lynched in the media and by the left. there is no reason for the local police to cut zimmerman slack. it is entirely possible that zimmerman is an idiot that acted legally. I have no interest in suggesting his behavior is exemplary but it does not appear based upon the few facts I believe I have that it was criminal.

195 I hate Internet Nazis.

196 >>>Justice for Trayvon, and shut up Al Sharpton. It puts us on the right side of two issues. Posted by: soothsayer Justice for Trayvon does not preclude justice for Zimmerman. I'm shocked that so many want to lynch this kid. [see, I can use emotionally charged rhetoric, too!]

197 ZimmermanÂ’s mother was Peruvian and the father possibly white. He was adopted by a Jewish couple. Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 12:36 PM (FdndL) is that true? I was wishing on the overnight thread for very nearly that! now he is playing african Americans against hispanics and jews. someone in the dirty tricks office really fluked up when they racially profiled zimmerman. smart power indeed!

198 Trayvon was totally innocent, in the right, and blame free...up until he was beating  the shit out of Zimmerman.

199 This lawyers in this case have a historic, if not unprecedented, three days of oral arguments. This is cause for great optimism. We will probably get a decision in June.

200 Zimmerman doesn't even have a chance at a fair trial. People will convict because they will be intimidated by the rabble rousers. If he is acquitted, the feds will charge him.

201 I wonder if watching how large investors treat the stocks that have already benefited greatly from the law, say like those that have doubled-or-better over the past 2 years, will gives us a clue as to what the likely outcome will be. Money is going to be moving around as a result of this case, and it would be really nice to play the winner for a change.

202 No the eyewitnesses interviewed by the police and the physical evidence on Zimmerman's body were all the evidence the police needed.

All we know is that Zimmerman got out, followed the kid believing that he was "up to no good", and that a fight ensued.  Zimmerman (who outweighted the kid by 100 lbs) was getting beat up, drew his weapon and fired.

We don't know who initiated the fight.  We do know that Zimmerman got close enough to be in that situation, and that he wasn't seriously injured.

According to the kid's girlfriend who was talking to him on the phone just before, the last thing he said was "Why are you following me?".  We know that Zimmerman believed the kid had criminal intent.  We know Zimmerman was carrying, and that the kid was walking home from the store and was unarmed.

203

MALICIOUS.

That is the only word I could think of when ObamaCare was first being crafted.  When the democrats said they would do it no matter what, or how.  When they noted they had the numbers in both chambers of congress to completely ignore republicans, and lock them out of chambers while the details were inserted.  When they lied to key allies to get their temporary votes, and blatantly bribed others for the same reason.  All in the clear light of day, and as public opposition increased, there was no appeasement of the concerns of the people, just forging ahead with their vision of our future.

This was a big fucking deal.  They want this real bad, and I don't fool myself for a moment that it's for the good of the country.  This is the last wall, the gate, and the razor wire, all rolled up into one bill.

And it falls to the capricious nature of one judge. 

FUBAR

204 Is this post about the media and Left trying to distract by politicizing and sensationalizing the killing of a kid in Florida, or about ObamaCare and the end of Liberty in America? From the comments I think the media is having some success with the distraction. Sigh.

205 >>> someone in the dirty tricks office really fluked up when they racially profiled zimmerman. smart power indeed! Black trumps brown kosher!

206 According to the kid's girlfriend...

Yeah, ok.

207 According to the kid's girlfriend who was talking to him on the phone just before, the last thing he said was "Why are you following me?". We know that Zimmerman believed the kid had criminal intent. We know Zimmerman was carrying, and that the kid was walking home from the store and was unarmed. Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 23, 2012 12:48 PM (SY2Kh) hey H. I think you may be throwing the word "know" around pretty liberally.

208

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">is that true? I was wishing on the overnight thread for very nearly that! now he is playing african Americans against hispanics and jews. someone in the dirty tricks office really fluked up when they racially profiled zimmerman. smart power indeed!Posted by: yankeefifth at March 23, 2012 12:46 PM (Z9EHQ)

 

According to Wikipedia, which has some reference material.

209 Black trumps brown kosher! Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:49 PM (kqXHe) except in votes and campaign contributions. I guess holder will have to have the black panthers chasing whites, latinos, and jews away from polling places.

210 Trayvon was totally innocent, in the right, and blame free...up until he was beating the shit out of Zimmerman.

So Zimmerman has the right to defend himself with deadly force in a fistfight against a smaller man, but Trayvon didn't have the right to defend himself from what he might reasonably have construed as a threat (a big dude stalking him at night)?

It's possible that Trayvon just attacked Zimmerman out of nowhere, but given the circumstances it's the less likely circumstance.

211 Can we agree that: Zimmerman was not in pursuit of someone whom he had witnessed committing a crime; Zimmerman did the appropriate thing and reported his concerns to the police; Zimmerman was safe in his car while following the non-criminal person; Zimmerman fundamentally changed the situation and put himself and the victim at risk by pursuing on foot unnecessarily; however the fight transpired, it would not have transpired had Zimmerman stayed in his car. If someone who is not a police officer pursues me on foot, I have a right to turn and defend myself. Zimmerman, lacking all of the training he would have as a police officer, was going outside what he needed to do to defend himself or others (or even property). That's what matters. That the fight went badly does not mean he should be convicted for first-degree murder, but he caused the situation, so he is the responsible party. Not necessarily criminally responsible, but it is not self-defense or standing his ground to pursue someone without cause to the point that a fight ensues.

212 is that true? I was wishing on the overnight thread for very nearly that! now he is playing african Americans against hispanics and jews. someone in the dirty tricks office really fluked up when they racially profiled zimmerman. smart power indeed!Posted by: yankeefifth at March 23, 2012 12:46 PM (Z9EHQ) According to Wikipedia, which has some reference material. Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 12:51 PM (FdndL) ha! now we need for whatshisname to have had a fast and furious gun on him.

213

Wikipedia also cites a witness that says Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating the shit out of him.

214 >>>Zimmerman (who outweighted the kid by 100 lbs) was getting beat up, drew his weapon and fired. Zimmerman is 5'2" while Martin is 6'2" and a football player. 1. The wit said The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him. 2. The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help. 3. Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness. 4. Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son. 5. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year. http://goo.gl/pIuqr They wouldn't have sealed Martin's reason or suspension unless they are hiding something.

215 202 Zimmerman (who outweighted the kid by 100 lbs)
---
Do you happen to have a reference to the weight and height of Zimmerman and Martin?  (All I can find is the Martin was 6"2'' and 140 lbs (really?). Zimmerman is 'fat'.)

216 >>>except in votes and campaign contributions. I guess holder will have to have the black panthers chasing whites, latinos, and jews away from polling places. Posted by: yankeefifth at You really think liberal jews will stick up for this kid? I don't. A lefty is a lefty is a lefty.

217 If someone who is not a police officer pursues me on foot, I have a right to turn and defend myself. Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (5H6zj) you want to write that law out? so the next time I am walking my dog at night and find a guy running up behind me I can turn around and assault him? how are you going to define that scenario? also, I would disagree with your choice of the word "pursue", that suggests an intention to close with or catch. "follow", or "tail" which would have the intention of keeping him in sight is much less suggestive.

218 When this case first broke I said then it had the smell of Duke all over it. I said we needed to give it at least a week for the actual facts to come out.  It appears that some facts are leaking out now despoiute the MFM trying to hush it up.

Any time the MFM and Al Shitptom get on their high horse you can almost guarantee a POS set of lies.

What we know:

The MFM shows pictures of the "kid" when he was about 10 y.o. Why is it they always portray the "victim" as an innocent choir boy?  We now know he was a 17 y.o gang banger who had been kicked out of school because he was violent.

The accused racist Hispanic was a neighborhood watch.  It was his job to follow him.  It doesn't matter if he was a wanna-be cop.  It was his job to follow this kid and keep and eye on him. For all appearances sake the "kid" was casing the homes for burglary.

The kid was beating him when the evil racist shot him. Yes, that meets the definition of self-defense without even invoking the FL stand your ground law.

Lets not get all Duke on this.

219

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">So Zimmerman has the right to defend himself with deadly force in a fistfight against a smaller man, but Trayvon didn't have the right to defend himself from what he might reasonably have construed as a threat (a big dude stalking him at night)?
It's possible that Trayvon just attacked Zimmerman out of nowhere, but given the circumstances it's the less likely circumstance.Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (SY2Kh)

 

Everything IÂ’ve seen has Trayvon at 6 foot or taller, and Zimmerman at 5 ft. 6 or 7 inches.  Zimmerman did weigh more though.

220

Re: auto liability insurance.

Solution: no requirement to purchase; if you purchase, you can get high limits underinsured and uninsured motorist coverage. Everybody gets to be as protected against third parties as they choose. If you don't buy any insurance and get injured, well, you chose to self-insure.

221 This Zimmerman case totally stole my idea for Paul Blart II: Gated Community Cop

222 A blow to the back of the head can often compensate for a weight-disadvantage.

223 You really think liberal jews will stick up for this kid? I don't. A lefty is a lefty is a lefty. Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:57 PM (kqXHe) maybe not, but all those retirees in fl are not going to be enamored with crowds marching or worse going after a guy named zimmerman. they do not have to support zimmerman. I will settle for beinfg repulsed by zero.

224 I say . . . Ace should just ban the asses of the MMFA drones who want to keep up the Zimmerman thing on this thread.

Just on general principles.

225 >>>Can we agree that: No. I don't have the time or interest in citing how much you have mis-characterized the actual evidence and your misstatements of law.

226 A blow to the back of the head can often compensate for a weight-disadvantage. Posted by: RioBravo at March 23, 2012 01:00 PM (eEfYn) If you are athletic and in shape and defending yourself against a fat guy - run away. the last thing you want to do is go to the ground with him where he can leverage his weight against you.

227

The lynch mob at “Morning Joe” was still pushing the meme that it was Trayvon screaming for help on the tapes, despite all the evidence that it was Zimmerman.

228 I see someone suspicious in my neighborhood, yes, I will call the police and then if he or she walks away, I will follow them to see where they are going, e.g., someone's backyard. Per the lynch mob, that justifies having my head bashed in.

229 If someone who is not a police officer pursues me on foot, I have a right to turn and defend myself. Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (5H6zj) ------ you want to write that law out? ------ Florida already did. From the “Stand Your Ground” doctrine in can be found in Florida Statute § 776.013(3) (2012): (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

230

On Zimmerman - I'm trying to understand the whole situation, no ax to grind yet. If Trayvon was on foot, could Zimmerman have reasonably thought that if he DIDN'T get out of his car and stay near Trayvon, Trayvon would simply vanish into the night before the police arrived to check things out?

 

Was Zimmerman "shadowing" him at a distance to keep an eye on him to avoid losing him before the police arrived, or was he actively pursuing or chasing him, causing Trayvon (if innocent) to feel threatened?

 

I know in our neighborhood, it would take someone on foot about 20 seconds to totally and permanently evade someone limited to staying in a car. Cops arriving two or three minutes later would be SOOL.

 

 

231 228 I see someone suspicious in my neighborhood, yes, I will call the police and then if he or she walks away, I will follow them to see where they are going, e.g., someone's backyard. Per the lynch mob, that justifies having my head bashed in. Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 01:05 PM (kqXHe) it is beyond bizarre that the left and its ideas have so insinuated themselves into our culture and legal system that you need to state that as if it was not the obvious and reasonable thing to do.

232 Why aren't people demanding that Martin call 911 instead of "putting himself at risk unnecessarily" by fighting with Zimmerman?

233

Noting that he had taken some time to “assess the current episode,” West wrote: “The US Navy SEALS identified Osama Bin Laden within hours, while this young man laid on a morgue slab for three days. The shooter, Mr Zimmerman, should have been held in custody and certainly should not be walking free, still having a concealed weapons carry permit. From my reading, it seems this young man was pursued and there was no probable cause to engage him, certainly not pursue and shoot him….against the direction of the 911 responder.”

The congressman added: “Let’s all be appalled at this instance not because of race, but because a young American man has lost his life, seemingly, for no reason.”

The Florida lawmaker said that he had signed a letter supporting the Justice Department’s investigation but that he did not plan to attend protests in Florida “to shout and scream, because we need the responsible entities and agencies to handle this situation from this point without media bias or undue political influences.” - Allen West

Ha.

234 @229   "Pursued" =/= "Attacked"

235 Allen West for VP YAY!!!!

236 I wonder if West is going to have to walk this one back like he did the Pigford vote.  Due diligence and all.

237 Everyone is assuming that Zimmerman instigated the "fight".  There has been no evidence presented that supports that.

238

"Why aren't people demanding that Martin call 911 instead of "putting himself at risk unnecessarily" by fighting with Zimmerman? "

 

Ain't that a hell of a question.

239

it appears that democrats get easily distracted by american idol, and republicans by minor local stories of little national import.

 

What's important is that they can be distracted....oh look, a squirrel!

240 >>>A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. Zimmerman had the right to be where he was. Did he attack Martin? The evidence shows that it was Martin who assaulted Zimmerman.

241 Witnessing this uninformed race baiting bullshit hijacking a thread about the critical issue of Obamacare, I just am just fucking amazed.

242

My image of the situation changes depending on whether i imagine Zim following 30 feet behind, or getting right up in Trayvon's personal space.

Holding distance or closing ground.

 

243 236 I wonder if West is going to have to walk this one back like he did the Pigford vote. Due diligence and all.

I don't know but, I wanted to stick him in the knob polishers squeak holes here and break it off.

244 A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. Posted by: Y-not at March 23, 2012 01:08 PM (5H6zj) well the word "attacked" does stand out to me. it does seem that "following" does not meet the requirement. if zimmerman did not attack him physically then whatshisname would not have been within his rights to attack? besides, zimmerman lived in the gated community and whatshisname did not?

245 Well, I guess it worked.

"Let's don't talk about the most egregious violation of the natural rights purportedly guaranteed by the Constitution since maybe Dred Scott was sent back to slavery, let's talk about some dumbshit vigilante in Florida instead!  Attica!  Attica!  No Justice!  No Peace!"

Sheesh.

I'm gonna go outside and watch the squirrels.  At least they're doing something interesting.

246

"...and republicans by minor local stories of little national import."

 

When the Big MSM, Federal DOJ, and the Prez are sticking their noses into the case to whip shit up for political reasons, it has plenty of national import. 

 

BTW, someone please tell me what the hell business the DOJ has in this case.

247 Krauthammer is overanalyzing matters.  The case will come down to Anthony Kennedy and the simple issue whether he's got the cojones to do what's right. 

248 Witnessing this uninformed race baiting bullshit hijacking a thread about the critical issue of Obamacare, I just am just fucking amazed. Posted by: Mr. Wonderful at March 23, 2012 01:13 PM (WKTJz) they are equally important my good moron. they are all part and parcel or wrecking the country. the obamacare debate has been covered and dicsussed ad infinitum around here. this mfm manufactured is the newest assault on truth, justice, and the American way and needs to be dealt with. read down the thread. everyone is picking apart the media coverage, the reasoning behind the coverage and lots of other stuff. it is all good.

249 Threads get hijacked all the time.  Mostly by BOOBS, but it happens.  Nobody gets all butthurt about that.

250 no pursued doe not equal attacked. I live in nyc there are many times when someone will be behind me for several blocks, often late at night when the streets are nearly empty. there are even instances when college kids are acting as they do when they are drunk and will run directly at me as the screw around and run from bar to bar. aside form the fact that this nyc and the laws are different, it is not reasonable to equate someone behind you or evening closing on you from behind while running as attacking.

251 >>>she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself Where was the deadly force or threat that justified Martin assaulting Zimmerman? When Martin was straddling and beating him, the witness did not see a gun out. Let's be honest here: Martin was pissed off because whitey (Latinny) was suspicious that he was a criminal. That's not justification to assault Zimmerman. Was Martin overly sensitive because he was suspended for theft? That's why his school record is relevant.

252

You're right... it is an important issue.  Just not AS important, or better still, worthy of its own thread.  This one was hijacked from the get-go.

 

253 BTW, someone please tell me what the hell business the DOJ has in this case.

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 01:16 PM (4I3Uo)

--------------------

Recall when the commies had both houses of congress and they added homosexuals to the hate crimes act.  They also enabled the DOJ to prosecute these crimes based on nothing more than the opinion of the DOJ. before it took a ruling by a court.

254 You're right... it is an important issue. Just not AS important, or better still, worthy of its own thread. This one was hijacked from the get-go. Posted by: OneEyedJack at March 23, 2012 01:27 PM (ORvjs) I guess we are only preaching to the choir that is the problem with hanging around a site with reasonable people. I agree obamacare, specifically yhe supreme court case, is more important, but I saving all of my obamacare energy for post argument discussion.

255 We've been discussing obamcare for 4 years. It's before the court. It is out of our hands.

256 oh yeah, as for the worries about african American and hispanic violence. I would suggest to the african American leaders like farrakahn and sharpton that white guilt and grievance mongering are not going to carry much weight in that scenario.

257 When ever there are race riots, black businesses get destroyed and mostly blacks get killed. You would think the race baiters would figure it out by now. Then again, they really don't give a shit about black lives.

258

What evidence does anyone have that Sharpton, Jackson, and Farrakhan are down for the struggle for any other reason than becoming multimillionaires?

 

Unhappiness and strife are their product and they sell the hell out of it.

259

Some of the commenters have a point.

 

Ace posted this thread on Obamacare and was innocently walking along with a bag of Skittles and an ice tea, when all of sudden the thug thread hijackers approached him. 

 

No one knows exactly what happened, but in the end, the Obamacare thread lay dead while the hijackers went free.  WeÂ’ve got a call in to Al Sharpton right now.

260 How is Zimmerman following this guy a threat? Aren't a few famous black guys on record for stating that they are only worried when they are followed by a black guy? So, how would a chubby latino neighborhood watch guy strike such fear in Martin that he felt physical force was necessary to defend himself?

261

Mike, youÂ’re forgetting centuries of African Americans being oppressed by Jews of Peruvian ancestry.

262 Damn that Zimmerman sounds like an idiot getting attacked from behind by the same guy he was following. And while where all talking about Martin's record it would be wise to state that Zimmerman had a violent record too.

263 I know this thread is old, but I'm just putting my two cents in. Why don't we wait to see what the FL grand jury has to say.

264 >>>I know this thread is old, but I'm just putting my two cents in. Why don't we wait to see what the FL grand jury has to say. Because too many knucklehead are trying to lynch this guy.

265

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">Why don't we wait to see what the FL grand jury has to say.Posted by: Soona at March 23, 2012 02:00 PM (u7Qrl)

 

There are some who think like that, but MSNBC has said too much time has past already.  ItÂ’s important that the country band together, find Zimmerman and lynch him immediately.

266 >>>Mike, youÂ’re forgetting centuries of African Americans being oppressed by Jews of Peruvian ancestry. Obviously, Zimmerman is a member of Sendero Luminoso.

267 >>>And while where all talking about Martin's record it would be wise to state that Zimmerman had a violent record too. They've sealed Martin's record. We're not suppose to talk about it. Just Zimmerman's. Which by the way, he has no convictions.

268 >>> "Damn that Zimmerman sounds like an idiot getting attacked from behind by the same guy he was following."

In addition to being a math scholar, homeless shelter volunteer, Peace Corps trainee and future saint, Trayvon was also a ninja. 

269 >>>Why don't we wait to see what the FL grand jury has to say.Posted by: Soona at March 23, 2012 02:00 PM (u7Qrl) Seriously, that was what I was saying for a long time. But this kept spinning out of control. When I saw people on this site ready to lynch him on the ONT a couple of days ago, I lost my cool. I am happy to see some people are not buying into the race baiter's bullshit.

270 I really don't understand the part about how the 911 operator told him to back off, how that's supposed to mean something. 

Since when are we beholden to governmental agents?  Since when are we underlings in some kind of civilian army? 

Police exist to enforce laws.  They are trained and paid to do that properly. 

They do not have extra rights and powers that we, the people, don't first have. 

That's where the police got the power to use force -- from us.  We delegate our powers and rights to them.  They are not supermen.  They are not graced with the power to do what we can't do.  They are our agents, acting on our behalf, because they are specialists, and it's more efficient for them to do it. 

If I want to, I can fix my own car, or I can delegate that authority to someone else.  Likewise, I can act to protect my own safety, or I can hire someone to do it for me. 

I know lots of people seem to think that cops have extra powers.  That they are legally entitled to defy gravity. 

If anything, the scope of their authority is equal to or less than what any ordinary person may do.

And we certainly don't take orders from them. 

271 >>>I really don't understand the part about how the 911 operator told him to back off, how that's supposed to mean something. The 911 operator was just trying to protect her/himself from liability. Remember the guy who was breaking into the home of the woman with the baby? She kept asking the operator if she could shoot him. Obviously, the answer was yes. However, the operator refused to say so and just said do what you got to do to protect your child. It's all about there own civil liability.

272 So, if a store detective starts following some body around in a store for no apparent reason, the person has the right to physically assault them because they are offended??? Martin wasn't scared. He was pissed off.

273 Also, it's entirely possible for two people to get into an altercation, and for BOTH participants to be mistaken as to the facts, but for both to nevertheless act within the bounds of their rights to self-defense. 

It's legal to act in self-defense if you act with REASONABLE BELIEF that you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

It is not necessary that you be correct.  It's still valid self-defense, even if you turn out to have been mistaken, if you acted based on what you reasonably believed at the time.

It's entirely possible that Trayvon genuinely (but mistakenly) believed Zimmerman to be stalking him with the intent of robbing him.  That is patently incorrect, but let's say that Trayvon thought that, and that belief (while mistaken) was reasonable.

It's also possible that Zimmerman genuinely (but mistakenly) believed that when Trayvon attacked him, the attack was aggressive, intended to conceal Trayvon's crimes, not motivated by Trayvon's attempt at self-defense. 

It is possible that if they both knew all of the facts about each other's actions and intentions (which are only coming out with the help of massive social activity, media attention, time and investigation, none of which either men had the benefit of), that Trayvon would not have attacked, and Zimmerman would not have shot. 

Hence, it's possible this is a case of mutual mistake. 

But in this fucked up Progressive, Obama-esque, pot-banging bullshit society I woke up in, things like law and reason don't fucking matter. 

So, I mock it. 

274 The court needs to go back to Wickard v Filburn and start over. +1. Damn right! Because the logical outcome of Wickard is that, yes, the Commerce Clause DOES cover EVERYTHING. And would reversing Wickard make (e.g.) Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, No Child Left Behind, even midnight basketball unconstitutional? Why yes. Yes it would. Why don't I see the downside to that?

275 "Ultimately, the question will hinge on whether the Commerce Clause has any limits."
Unfortunately every time the Supreme Court has faced this it seems to want to come down on the side of "why, no sir!"

276

Just got back from seeing The Hunger Games. Lots of food for thought about the power of the government. The President (played by Donald Sutherland) has some interesting dialogue about the government allowing the people to have a modicum of hope, but not too much.  I thought it was going to be more of an indictment on the reality TV culture, but the movie came across as more of a warning about what the government can do -take your children and force them to kill each other- with too much power.

 

I highly recommend it.