1 sigh

2

Doesn't sound so dumb to me.

 

The attack or the attacker? 

 Perry does well in friendly interviews. 

3 Who is this Perry fellow, anyway?

4 Ace, stop with the Perry obsession. At least for the rest of the day. Not hot, get over it.

5
John Edwards tipped me off to this stuff.  It's kinda fun, and chicks dig it, I guess.

6 Perry is sixth in SC. Sixth.

7

So it's problematic for Perry if you by a house, finance it, sell it  and keep all the profits for yourself?

In the words of Barack Obama, sometimes you've just made enough profit I guess.

8 So it's problematic for Perry if you by a house, finance it, sell it and keep all the profits for yourself? In the words of Barack Obama, sometimes you've just made enough profit I guess. Posted by: robtr at January 12, 2012 03:40 PM (MtwBb) Yeah I thought that was pretty stupid also. I don't think that is what he meant, but it sure came out dumb ass

9 Yeah, funny thing, Ace... if you read Pravda editorials back in the Seventies, they never sounded entirely dumb, either. He's losing major money donors over this crap, and rightfully so. It was a boneheaded decision on his part to go to the Left of the guy he calls a RINO. Can you honestly tell me it was the intelligent, morally right thing to do?? Is it really THAT hard for you to disengage from this guy?

10 That's Bane, ace. And why is he attacking a comic book character?

11 "Cause [Perry's] Got...."   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrp815ctBiA#t=29s

12 I need assistance from a philosopher.  Is saying:  "It would take nothing to convince me of that" the same thing as saying:  "I am convinced of that"?

TIA.

13

So it's problematic for Perry if you by a house, finance it, sell it  and keep all the profits for yourself?

In the words of Barack Obama, sometimes you've just made enough profit I guess.

More accurately like strategic default, after stripping equity with additional mortgages. Totally legal, totally immoral.

14 Sarah Palin and Rick Perry don't know didly shit about how business works. They are idiots.

15 Fuck it. I'm going fission.

16 One more thing....am abandoning this stupid blog of the perry crotch sniffy. It's getting pathetic and stupid. I agree with Carville...he's a terrible candidate.

17 He struggles with the logic.  He shouldn't have thrown in with Newt.  What I was hearing was a feeble attempt at damage control.

18

 cvb at January 12, 2012 03:45 PM

Actually, the Palin's own a profitable commercial fishing business. You know, working, paying the bills, making the profits, etc. I think she does know how a business works.

I'll criticize her for not having the guts to run for POTUS and make fun of her followers like jwest, but, to say she knows nothing about how a business runs is a lie.

No offense.

 

19 Oh my God, cvb is abandoning the blog. We're doomed I tell ya.

20 Oh my God, cvb is abandoning the blog. We're doomed I tell ya.

Watch for Monty to have a link on it tomorrow.

21 Perry's polling at 5% in SC and 2% in Florida. Also, I think Palin has labeled Romney as the "old-boy network Republican" in her mind. And attacking that is part of her self-image.

22

And once again I'm put in the nauseating position of appearing to defend Romney - for doing precisely what a private equity firm is supposed to do. And, in many cases, for doing precisely the ugly, nasty, painful cost-cutting that the next President is going to have to do to the Fed.GOV budget.

I honestly don't think Romney has to stones to do that no matter how right-of-center is the next CONgress, but all these attacks are telling me is that neither Newt nor Perry even understands that said ugly, nasty, painful cuts are necessary, much less that they'll do them.

23 He struggles with the logic Females and not-bright people (but I repeat myself) tend to struggle with rational thought. Hence, Palin and Perry's "heartful" positions. This doesn't explain the crushing around here; it might be that Perry is just so . . . unusual a person.

24 And yet Bain did grow some of these firms and started others. <sarc>  I am sure Newt and Perry are doing this for the good of capitalism and the party. We should deploy the Obama playbook against ourselves because only then can we win.  Mr. Texas Job Creator is condemning venture capital.  This is great. </sarc>

25 obama is the enemy Just feel I have to say that every once in a while

26 Ace...this is getting ridiculous. I get that you like Perry, but he's now attacking free-market capitalism. He's criticizing Romney, the most moderate conservative in the race, FROM THE LEFT. It's absurd!

27 Bold words from a guy who polls behind Vermin Supreme.

28 I've been in plenty of tanks, but I've never been as deep in the tank as Ace is for Perry.

29

Here's the deal with these LBO's and stuff. These are public companies--you can buy them. Anybody with money can buy them and Bain had money.

If these LBO'd companies were worth more than Bain was paying for them, then where was the better bid? You can't just pretend you know more about the value of a collection of assets than somebody who's risking their capital. If you think you can do better by everybody, put your own money up instead of carping from your high horse.

30 15 Sarah Palin and Rick Perry don't know didly shit about how business works. They are idiots. Posted by: cvb at January 12, 2012 03:45 PM (HRFxR) That's not fair to Sarah... she figured how to cash in, plenty.

31 But at least it's ok now to quote Sarah Palin.

32 I like Perry. It's sad that a few attacks and a few gaffes did him in so early in the process. Shows how important the initial roll-out of a candidate is. If it goes poorly it's really hard to recover from.

33 Posted by: taylork, on his new computer gotten from last nights riot at January 12, 2012 03:49 PM (5wsU9) Damnit, not fast enough lol.

34 Erwin's right- I read his book!

35

Because what Sarah Palin doesn't know about business isn't worth knowing.

Yeah, I get that Obama might be able to spin this in a way that is hard to defend.  So what?  Perry still shouldn't be making OWS attacks and chanting Michael Moore lines no matter how popular they are.  How is Perry supposed to lead the country to the right when he's following the left?

Perry is toast and isn't worth you mortgaging your own integrity and intelligence for.

36 This doesn't explain the crushing around here; it might be that Perry is just so . . . unusual a person.

Probably more due to Ace's repeated endorsements.

37 So ... basically Perry's idea for winning the Conservative vote is to go all Teddy "Populist Progressive" Roosevelt?

Yep.  He's a genius. 

38 He's criticizing Romney, the most moderate conservative in the race, FROM THE LEFT. It's absurd! Posted by: Andrew at January 12, 2012 03:50 PM (r6SJw) Of course it is. Is Romney really so awful a RINO that you would prefer someone running to his LEFT as the Nominee? Really??

39 self-image

40 So Newt is stupid and icky for the Bain attacks, but Perry has a nuanced understanding of leveraged buyouts? 

Ace, don't you get embarrassed when you write this stuff? 

41 image

42 Weird, why does the blog replace image with underlines in the word self-image?

43
I cannot stand her voice, for the life of me.

44 You do know that in a leveraged buy out, when you take over, you make the company's assets the collateral for the debt you yourself took on to acquire it, right? That's bootstrapping, they call it, apparently. You get the loans in the expectation that you'll soon buy a company with it, and use the assets to secure the loan you took out. And when you default -- if you can't pay the loans -- the company's assets are sold off to satisfy your debt. This may be capitalism, but it's not what most people think of when they think of "business." they think of working a business up, selling products. Not taking out big loans to take over a company and then using the company's assets to satisfy those loans. From wikipedia: A leveraged buyout (or LBO, or highly leveraged transaction (HLT), or "bootstrap" transaction) occurs when an investor, typically a financial sponsor, acquires a controlling interest in a company's equity and where a significant percentage of the purchase price is financed through leverage (borrowing). The assets of the acquired company are used as collateral for the borrowed capital, sometimes with assets of the acquiring company. Typically, leveraged buyout uses a combination of various debt instruments from bank and debt capital markets. The bonds or other paper issued for leveraged buyouts are commonly considered not to be investment grade because of the significant risks involved.[1] If the company subsequently defaults on its debts, the LBO transaction will frequently be challenged by creditors or a bankruptcy trustee under a theory of fraudulent transfer.[2] ... note that latter part. It's kind of hinky. It may be permissible but it's kind of hinky.

45 [Facepalm] Oh Ace. Look, eventually we have to make peace with Perry's inability to take the nomination. Just give yourself a quick frontal lobotomy and jump on the Mitt Ship.

46 6 Perry is sixth in SC. Sixth. Posted by: Blaster at January 12, 2012 03:40 PM (Fw2Gg) that's because he's accidentally been campaigning in NC

47 Of course it is. Is Romney really so awful a RINO that you would prefer someone running to his LEFT as the Nominee? Really?? Posted by: CoolCzech at January 12, 2012 03:53 PM (niZvt) Hell no! That's the whole problem. Ace, I cannot grasp why you have decided the Rick Perry is Super Jesus in this race. I feel like every third post is Perry apologia. I'm not big on Romney, but at least he'll stand firm on one of the most critical issues out there: free market capitalism.

48

Next up, Perry talks about "cold fission" and sounds smart too.

49 Listen man, going full retard is why my blog became what it is today.

My blog is now so awesome !!!11!1!!eleventy!!!11!11!!!

50 Why would Ace need to jump on the Mitt Ship? The whole issue here seems to be that Mitt is going to win no matter what. Why would he need Ace?

51 The part that gets me is that YOU are taking out the loans, to secure a benefit for yourself, but then, having done that, you make the firm's assets the collateral for your debt. At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

52 I guess you hear what you wanna hear..

The problem with talking about Bain's business like you are an expert on it is that each deal was likely very different.  On the surface, some of those deals looked really heartless (ha ha) when you look at it from the perspective of the workers who got shit canned.  Many of them lost their pensions and those pensions got shipped off to PBGC (i.e. the taxpayer and/or other firms paying in premiums) where the employees got cents on the dollar on their pensions.   I'm sure Obama will have these employees in videos with their sob stories.  and, he'll be calling those pension defaults "bailouts" for Bain.

But a lot of the deals created lots of jobs and made money for everyone.

Pricks like Newt and, to some extent, Perry who think they can judge decades of business with a few soundbites are traitors to the GOP party, if you ask me.

53 I like Perry.  I would still like to vote for him, but it's looking like he's in the whirlwind of Newt.  Too bad.  He should have stuck with his own ideas and convictions.  I do hope he runs again and the next time with less naivete'.

54

So what you're saying, Ace, is that Bain really sucked at looting companies, because 78% of the companies they bought they forgot to loot?  That's just not plausible.

LBOs were of exactly zero concern to you until your boy Perry started making unwise attacks on Romney for public acts of capitalism.

55 Dammit, that was pretty incoherent, to my ears.

56
Rick Resurgent: The Squeakuel

57
This Katy Perry candidate is beginning to grow on me, IYKWIMAITYD.

In other news, Day 5 cold turkey with without the chewy tobaccy.  Better than Day 4, although I want to eat constantly.

58 >>>So what you're saying, Ace, is that Bain really sucked at looting companies, because 78% of the companies they bought they forgot to loot? That's just not plausible. >>>LBOs were of exactly zero concern to you until your boy Perry started making unwise attacks on Romney for public acts of capitalism. Keep on pretending this is the sort of "business" that people think of as "business." Most people think of working something up from nothing and producing stuff is "business." You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers.

59 instead of carping from your high horse.

Bankruptcy is an ugly ugly affair. Every party in a bankruptcy acts in whatever way they can to minimize their loss, moral or immoral. A lot of people get very short haircuts as a result. Rarely does the party that deserves the shortest haircut (The parent company) actually get it. It is a huge imperfection in the rules of capitalism that we operate under. Trust me in one bankruptcy their are enough unsavory things that happen to make you question the character of pretty much everybody involved. With multiple bankruptcies, prepare for a parade of the absolute worst part of capitalism. One that is arguably broken and needs reform, and, contains some of the worst horrors of the free market system.

That is what we have to look forward to. And those of you who are rah rah, capitalism is always perfect, need to come to grips with the fact that this is coming and will be impossible to defend from the ideological standpoint.

The very best you will be able to do is say.
1. Yes the rules are imperfect and there is room for improvement.
2. He was just playing by the rules he had.

Which speaks very little to the moral fiber of the man. And will turn off a lot of people.

60 Perry knows about capitalism. Unfortunately it's crony capitalism and he has become a multi millionaire utilizing this knowledge.

61 Ace I am floored u r on board w attacking the economic freedom of the country to slam an opponent. Talk about no core issue. Over the shark

62 After listening to this; and knowing the incredible amount of school district, municipal, state and other governmental bankruptcies in our near future, I feel a hell of a lot better about Mittens being the nominee. Things are already hotter than heck out there - no one noticed?

63

I agree with Carville...he's a terrible candidate.

Posted by: cvb at January 12, 2012 03:47 PM (HRFxR)

He's right! He's right, I tell y'all! Rick Perry is a terrible candidate, just terrible! Why, he's worse than an alligator that can't sing "Camptown Races!" Rick Perry will be the demise of this country! There will be civil unrest!

64

Still rooting for Perry. .....Hope he can make a comeback.

Romney has been getting a pass from the media on his background. While the other candidates have been getting the microscope treatment. .....Right here, right now, given the toxic anti-millionaire narrative that Barky, and the left, have been establishing.....how can Romney's background be a plus?

Perry is not anti-capitalism or anti-free enterprise. ....He has a long record of fighting for capitalism, even moreso than Romney.

65 I'm very much in favor of LBO's so I have no problem with what Romney did. They help make companies and the economy more efficient. The idea is they make the market for management more liquid. It's the principal-agent problem. Often times management mismanages the assets of a company to benefit themselves instead of the shareholders. LBOs and bond vigilantes threaten those assets. The existing management has to make sure they use their assets efficiently enough that they don't become a target for an LBO. Bain Capital and similar orgs are doing the overall economy a great service. I recognize the median voter won't understand this, of course. So it might be politically harmful. But the reality is LBOs have positive externalities because they cause companies who aren't threatened to shape up out of fear of LBOs.

66 52 The part that gets me is that YOU are taking out the loans, to secure a benefit for yourself, but then, having done that, you make the firm's assets the collateral for your debt.

At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

Posted by: ace

The part where you re-organize a failing company, tighten up its management, cut underperforming units, and make the thing run better? 

The part where shareholders of corporations get a nice buy-out at a premium?

The part where a business whose assets are apparently worth more in other hands gets sold off to those other hands?

Using LBOs the way you're talking about is a more a alt-newspaper/Hollywood scriptwriter stereotype than an actual reality.

67 Capitalist vultures and crappy BBQ: How to win a SC Primary

by Rick Perry

68 Didn't she have a few episodes of Imus, way back when, where she was all crazy eyed and hair messy in a typical psychotic chick way? I even recall Don and the boys commenting on that and her stalking of some guy she was banging. Clearly someone got the meds right, at least long enough to keep her coherent on the air.

69 He doesn't sound dumb??? He led off with a completely inept analogy about buying a house and selling it for a profit. Good Lord Ace. Look, you can't un-say what Perry and Newt have been saying. They are toast.

70 I'm not big on Romney, but at least he'll stand firm on one of the most critical issues out there: free market capitalism.

Posted by: Andrew at January 12, 2012 03:56 PM (r6SJw)

 

We have only the hope that he will do this.  His record is not reassuring.

71 I will miss cvb's contributions to this community. Who can forget the time when commented on that post about that thing that happened? Godspeed, cvb. Our time together was all too brief.

72 At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

When you recognized the hidden value in the company.  Knowledge is power, and Bain had it.  At least enough to get others (banks, investors, whatever) to risk their capital.  It creates efficiency.

73 I'm still convinced that Perry would make the best President.
Not convinced that he can turn this around.

74 >> Oh my God, cvb is abandoning the blog. We're doomed I tell ya.

Who?

75 Here is an idea, how about we give up on politicos that have been on reality shows?  I loved Palin up until her reality show, then my mind went "are we really going to be continue this?" and my penis went "YUP!....well, at least until the wrinkles set in".  And thats about as much thought I give Palin now.  I am still absolutely amazed that a bunch of us on the right still take Trump seriously.

76 Ace, in your previous post I believe it's fusion not fission.

77 Geez, that leaves weird Ron Paul, weird Rick Santorum, or weird Newt.

Hello!

78 Romney will lose because of an inability to explain the issue. We will fight another Bush in 2016 and hopefully be able to nominate Walker.

Mitt also thinks affordable housing is a right.

79 I had a problem with this going back to law school, when I was studying this sort of thing. My problem is that you're not buying something with your own money. You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt. You use the assets of the thing being purchased to fund its purchase. You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money. If you make money, great. If you don't, declare bankruptcy and let the bank take the company as the collateral for your own loan-to-acquire. Just seems kind of odd.

80 59 This Katy Perry candidate is beginning to grow on me, IYKWIMAITYD. Yes, both of them. Indeed, I am most enamored of how much they grew on HER, IYKWIM. AIKTYD.

81

@61 Sure, capitalism sucks. It just sucks a whole lot less than any other -ism out there.

If people are turned-off to someone who played icky-capitalism to the point that they think Barky McSmoke Smoker is offering a better alternative then I suppose we have 12/21/12 to look forward to.

82 I'm very much in favor of LBO's so I have no problem with what Romney did. They help make companies and the economy more efficient.

The idea is they make the market for management more liquid.

Quiet.  Free market capitalism means everyone gets a job, a pension, an iPad, a car, a house, and it takes 5 years to implement.

At least that's what that well-known Capitalist, Karl Marx wrote in his manifesto.

Anyone who doesn't understand how free markets actually work is too stupid to vote for Mitt anyway ...

83 but at least he'll stand firm on one of the most critical issues out there: free market capitalism.

Unless there is a democrat senate/house; then you capitalists can suck by nuts. Damn republicans and their stupid corporations.

84 I fear that Ace's next pod cast will be a primal scream. Am I wrong?

85 We can say "it would be much easier for Bambi to demonize Romney because he was a Wall Street guy, a predatory capitalist, and even LOOKS like a smooth huckster." All that is true. But if we are going with what will sell on the campaign trail, is Perry really the answer? If Perry can't sell to the GOP base, which at least knows something about him and will tend to disregard the MSM, how will he sell in the general? No. Perry is good under certain circumstances but he is bad where it counts in the general election -- the perception of ability.

86 Mitt's time at Bain, which is no big deal to a lot of Republicans, will lose him the general election if we nominate him. That's what we "sell-outs" are saying. And weird Santorum's hunter-orange vests say "The Right to Bare Arms". C'mon, that's funny.

87 Keep on pretending this is the sort of "business" that people think of as "business." Most people think of working something up from nothing and producing stuff is "business."

You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers.

Posted by: ace

 

Most people think we should cut taxes to zero and have free healthcare and masseuses for all.  Unemployed workers think Uncle Sugar should pay unemployment benefits indefinitely at 100% of their former salary, plus extra to compensate for the emotional distress of being unemployed.

But Republicans are supposed to make decisions based on principle and being an adult, not on cheap populist appeals.

Perry, and you, apparently, disagree.

88 You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers.
Posted by: ace

Dah, comrade. These filthy capitalists are like vampires sucking the blood out of the proletariat.

Onward to Future!

89 You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money. If you make money, great. If you don't, declare bankruptcy and let the bank take the company as the collateral for your own loan-to-acquire.

Then the bank needs to smarten up.  And no taxpayer guarantees.

90 86 but at least he'll stand firm on one of the most critical issues out there: free market capitalism. Unless there is a democrat senate/house; then you capitalists can suck by nuts. Damn republicans and their stupid corporations. Posted by: Mitt Romney at January 12, 2012 04:04 PM (usXZy) Unlike Perry, who's demonstrating what a stalwart defender of conservatism he is... OH, SHIT! That's not what he's doing, is it? Oh, My....

91

 Perry does well in friendly interviews. 

 

When  has Obama ever had anything but?

92 The Perry Campaign Plan

1.  Hair
2.  Gratuitously antagonize base by calling them heartless
3.  Apply Wooden Indian strategy in debates
4.  Attack RINO with Michael Moore sound bites
5. ???
6.  THE NOMINATION!!!!

93 A good counter to ace's post in the article by Kevin Williamson at NRO. I bet it contains a lot of info some of you morons never knew.

94

What?  You guys hated businessmen at the protest on Wall Street last October.  What gives?

99 > 1

95 Death to the bourgeios!

Oh wait. I have a republican congress?

Yay bourgeios!

96 One wonders, is this about being pro-Perry, anti-Romney, or a self-defense mechanism for the ego?

At what point does one just say, it's over, I'm damaging the whole process by continuing more than I can ever expect to extract utility from it. Because that's what Perry and Gingrich (especially) are doing: I don't care what nuance you spin on it, MSM interpretation is they are backing up the #OWS hippies.

I would have thought, for Ace, who seems like a reasonably intelligent and logical guy -- that using Sarah Palin as a support would have been that bridge too far. But maybe I'm just the 'numbskull.' Which is likely true, as, gosh, I hope my next president can use proper sentence structure and not have to rely on 'job creating antics'

97 My problem is that you're not buying something with your own money. You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt. You use the assets of the thing being purchased to fund its purchase. ***** Sounds like three card Monty. Anyways I love hoe everyone is enamored with Romney's business sense the end result being- 1)20% higher taxes-or "fees" in Massachusetts. 2)47th state in job growth-as in almost dead last... 3)RomneyCare-Mitt's Crowning Achievement.

98 Actually, most of Bain's deals have not involved public companies. But by any measure, Bain is in the upper tier of private equity shops. It is a phenomenally successful firm with a long track record and exceptionally bright people running and staffing it. Bain Capital, with which I have worked with, is able to cherry pick the best and brightest out of Bain Consulting, which already is at an extremely high level. Think of it as the Marine Recon--the elite of the elite. The attacks on Romney are absolutely bush-league. Whatever Bain has done, it has done one thing extremely well: MAKE MONEY. If this is to be condemned by GOP contenders, perhaps we need to blow the party up and start over. Perry and Gingrich are dead to me. I don't give a crap for Romney, but this stuff has to end.

99 I'm shocked, shocked that people who have opposed Romney for months are just now reaffirming their lifelong opposition to venture capitalism.

100 O/T the morons will like this.  Surprising number of what I think are dogs, but all of them have some damn good teeth.

http://tinyurl.com/79648p9
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo-intellectual
.......
Some have that scary crazy look too!

101 Ace, I think you are out of your depth on this, economically speaking. I get that you feel an emotional revulsion to the whole LBO thing, but I think it's just that, emotional, and not rational. Same way, most lefties I know have an emotional revulsion to the "profit". The reason most countries make it hard for outsiders to raid assets of companies is due to corruption and to protect incumbents. The LBOs really are an anti-corruption force in this situation. Most countries end up with national champion companies that get backing and protection from the state and use state power to stamp out competition. And the management abuses the shareholders to enrich themselves. The LBOs really are on the side of the angels here.

102 Most people think we should cut taxes to zero

Except on The Rich. We want those fuckers to finally pay their fair share.

103 I'm still convinced that Perry would make the best President.
Not convinced that he can turn this around.

Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly.

104 Come to the dark side, ace. We get to mouth bad dialog and jump all over Natalie Portman.

105 You should have listened to your inner voice: Perry=toast Palin is just SO STUPID compared to them thar Texas compassionate conservatives! Ol' Tardisil Bachmann would have been SUCH a disaster as she is a real crazy-eyed conservative, and no match to that towering intellect from Tx. We will be SO fortunate to get a real conservative like the man with the magic undies instead of those ding-a-ling right-wing TEA Party wingnuts! Oh, and if Perry stays in much longer we will have gotten rid of that papist Santorum, too. Screwball so-cons! Always messing things up for God haters and "sensible" pragmatists who are too smart to let principle get in the way of winning things.

106 Perry has not handled this issue (or very many others) very well.  But he really isn't attacking capitalism - he's just calling Romney out for Romney's repeated boasting that he "created hundreds of thousands of jobs" in the private sector.  Romney has deliberately painted a picture of himself as a white-as-snow entrepreneur Midas who created jobs with every touch of his managerial hand. 

All Perry is doing, I think, is popping that balloon a bit by pointing out that Mitt wasn't exactly the Midas he's been portrayed to be - that, in fact, his actions were often quite messy and resulted in people losing their jobs.  He's not arguing against capitalism, but pushing back against the squeeky-clean, everybody wins, job-creating machine experience that Romney has advertised.

If Romney wants to highlight his business experience as his most important qualification, then it is not unfair for his competitors to ask voters to consider the facts of that experience - warts and all.  Especially if Romney makes it sound as if all he did at Bain was create jobs.

107

You sell your house and keep all the profits for yourself.  

That analogy doesn't sound DUMB, DUMB, DUMB Ace?

108 We get to mouth bad dialog and jump all over Natalie Portman.

I'd rather mouth natalie portman

109 Romney was against capitalism apparently in 2003. Dems just seem to be licking their lips.
And santorum is stupid for running around SC saying he agrees with Obama on gays

110 My problem is that you're not buying something with your own money. You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt. You use the assets of the thing being purchased to fund its purchase. You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money. If you make money, great. If you don't, declare bankruptcy and let the bank take the company as the collateral for your own loan-to-acquire. Just seems kind of odd. Ace, this is the historical cartoon version of an LBO from Milken's era. They aren't done this way any more. Today's buyouts are running between 35 and 60 percent equity typically. If you think a private equity firm doesn't care about losing tens of millions of dollars, you don't understand how they get paid.

111
the problem I have is not with Romney's capitalism its with his Socialism (Romneycare).

112 Shouldn't we be trying to figure out what VP candidate will make us happy to eat this sandwich?

113

I think its pretty telling that the only people who are even willing to defend Perry and Newt on this are some of the the hardcore bots for those guys and the hardcore Romney-haters.

While even some of the Perry and Newt bots and the Romney haters have been willing to criticize it.

Hell, this is the first time the Ewok could even bring himself to try and defend Perry on the substance.

Poker wisdom: when playing a known losing hand, and everybody knows it, fold.

114 And there is this from mass.gov itself- ***** Nevertheless, the CommonwealthÂ’s debt burden remains among the highest in the nation by certain measures. MoodyÂ’s Investors Service ranks Massachusetts fourth in total net tax-supported debt, fourth in total gross tax-supported debt (down from third in 2007), second in net tax-supported debt as a percentage of personal income, and second in net tax-supported debt per capita (down from first in 2007).[10] Standard and PoorÂ’s Massachusetts rankings are similar: second in tax-supported debt per capita (down from first in 2007), third in tax-supported debt as a percentage of personal income (down from second in 2007), and fourth in total tax-supported debt.[11] ********** Thank YOU ROMNEYCARE!!!!!! *********

115 90 But Republicans are supposed to make decisions based on principle and being an adult, not on cheap populist appeals.

Wow, I thought the decisions were based on the size of the campaign contribution. That or their principles have been ______ up for some time.

116

I do believe it's time you all stop trying to think for yourselves and just listen to me, but honestly I don't know why you Romney lovers get so bent out of shape with Ace over his support of Perry...

That being said, Perry is on Team Romney!  The sooner the Perry lovers AND the Romzombies realize they're all one team now, the easier time you will all have dealing with this stuff.

117 Vote Mitt Romney I can manage a bankruptcy.

118 The best solution, of course, is to have our own candidates fatally damage each other so that the eventual nominee loses in the general due to the public associating the Republican with what his not-a-chance-in-hell rivals and the media said about him for months.

It worked for the Tea Party. The public now hates the Tea Party. Isn't that great? If we work really hard, we can get them to hate everyone except Obama. And then everything will be jake.

Four more years of Obama is preferable to some horrifying "vulture capitalist."

119

Just remember this was the same Ace of Spades site that made claims that Cain wasn't a real conservative. Meanwhile you got "he doesn't sound dumb to me" claims for Perry.

 

Not so much love for Newt tho'.

 

Who'ld have figured?

120 Link read it -if you dare. http://www.mass.gov/bb/cap/fy2009/exec/hdebtaf ford_5.htm

121 My problem is that you're not buying something with your own money. You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt. You use the assets of the thing being purchased to fund its purchase.

You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money. If you make money, great. If you don't, declare bankruptcy and let the bank take the company as the collateral for your own loan-to-acquire.

Just seems kind of odd.



WTF, debt is used in pretty much every single business transaction. And what do you mean you bought something for nothing? You acquired assets in return for a commitment to repay a loan. The bank doesn't underwrite a loan unless its risk is protected through measures like loan-to-value ratio and a credit-worthy borrower. And guess what, if you don't perform on loans, no one is going to give you loans in the future.

And in any case, point to a record at Bain of taking over companies, raiding them and bankrupting them and stiffing creditors. You got that, or Perry's dumb ass got it?

122 102 I'm shocked, shocked that people who have opposed Romney for months are just now reaffirming their lifelong opposition to venture capitalism. Posted by: Lincolntf at January 12, 2012 04:07 PM (hiMsy) Yeeeep. Ace just jumped the shark.

123 Here's the tiny url - http://tinyurl.com/6rpzvur

124

@61 Sure, capitalism sucks. It just sucks a whole lot less than any other -ism out there.

If people are turned-off to someone who played icky-capitalism to the point that they think Barky McSmoke Smoker is offering a better alternative then I suppose we have 12/21/12 to look forward to.

Trust me I don't like it one bit. There are some things I could never do to make money because my conscience would get in the way. And doing what Romney did is one of them. Now I know folks like that are needed, because you do need them as the bankruptcy rules are currently written, but there level of moral flexibility is too high for my liking for the office of President. Does that mean I would rather have O? ABSOLUTELY NOT! But I'm a hard conservative ideologue, not everyone who will see the results of Romney's work will be so set against O and soft socialism as I am.

If the economy improves a little between now and November, I would plan on losing with Romney, cause a terrible economy is the only thing that will build a winning majority for Romney.

125 Keep on pretending this is the sort of "business" that people think of as "business." Most people think of working something up from nothing and producing stuff is "business."

You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers.

Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 03:59 PM (nj1bB)

You are confusing leveraged buyouts with venture capitalism. Yes venture capitalist can do leveraged buyouts although that kind of thing doesn't happen to often anymore because of the legal problems that follow any money you may take out of the company if you bk it.

I havn't read anything that says Bain was a leveraged buyout firm. I have heard that they took managment fees from failed companies and maybe if they had taken less fees the company would have lasted longer but that's all I have heard.

I didn't watch the Michael Moore film though because even Politico said there is not way to substantiate any of the charges because Bain is a private company and doesn't share the info.

126 I was willing to forgive Perry the "heartless" crack. But this is pushing it.
I'm really willing to give Santorum the nod. He has been Steady Eddie. The media tried to Palinize him before they perfected it on her. He's the guy they're terrified of. He's won more races than Romney with less money, and he may have won Iowa if not for some possible shenanigans. Santorum's right on Foreign Policy, right on social issues, right on taxes, and right on the economy and has a keen understanding how social issues directly affect the economy. I just want to know how many fed departments he'll axe.

127 Perry is sixth in SC. Sixth.

In SC.

128 The part that gets me is that YOU are taking out the loans, to secure a benefit for yourself, but then, having done that, you make the firm's assets the collateral for your debt.

At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

From the point you became the equity owner of the company.

What, you think they approached prospective lenders with a pitch along the lines of: "we're going to load up this undervalued company with debt, strip out all the cash we can from what you lend us and what they have in the bank and then walk away leaving our creditors holding the bag."

Sign me up for some of that action, huh?

129 And santorum is stupid for running around SC saying he agrees with Obama on gays I think it's a good wedge strategy, turning it against Obama. If Obama clarifies and says he's against traditional marriage, then that exposes his previous position as a load of baloney. If he tries to play it both ways, he'll piss off his liberal base and come off as two faced. And then he won't have much ground to attack Santorum. Of course, he'll attack Santorum anyway. And I expect Santorum will hit him for supporting gay marriage eventually too.

130 Ronald Reagan hates capitalism, says bad things about wall street.

131 I fear that Ace's next pod cast will be a primal scream.

Am I wrong?

Posted by: CoolCzech at January 12, 2012 04:04 PM (niZvt)

I'm guessing more like slurred speech, staggering around then passing out in a dumpster.

132

At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

This is a red herring.

The value is added from the impetus to actually do this.  That and the ability to pick the 'Winners' from the landscape of failing corporations. 

You think Bane doesn't add value, go out and try and raise the cash to buy a ailing corporation and see what happens.  Their success at doing this allows them the opportunity to borrow with less exposure.  They aren't fully insulated from a bad business play, they are just well leveraged thanks to their reputation and hard work.

133

89 Mitt's time at Bain, which is no big deal to a lot of Republicans, will lose him the general election if we nominate him. That's what we "sell-outs" are saying.

-----------

That's right.

There have only been two blue states that have voted. ....And yet the media and our establishment Republican overlords are already saying "it's over".
......Well, if it is, then we've lost. Romney cannot beat the JEF. Too many people will stay home.

134
The only criticism I can see from the right here is there was some taxpayer money used or at risk.  Then Mitt might have a problem with this.

Otherwise, he should just be disqualified as being the proud father of obamacare.

135 What, you think they approached prospective lenders with a pitch along the lines of: "we're going to load up this undervalued company with debt, strip out all the cash we can from what you lend us and what they have in the bank and then walk away leaving our creditors holding the bag."

Sign me up for some of that action, huh?

You just described every capitalistic company in America.  Duh!

136 "You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers."

I never thought Ace would go Charles Johnson, and he hasn't. Instead, he's gone full-blown Democrat.

137 My problem is that you're not buying something with your own money. You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt. You use the assets of the thing being purchased to fund its purchase.

You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money. If you make money, great. If you don't, declare bankruptcy and let the bank take the company as the collateral for your own loan-to-acquire.

Just seems kind of odd.

Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 04:03 PM (nj1bB)

 

Much of the problem lies with the initial owner/s of a business or industry.  They make a marketable product and start doing well.  Instead of saving or increasing their capital through investment instruments for expansion, they go the corporate route, get their name on the WS ticker and put themselves in a position of being preyed on by shady venture capitalism deals.

138  You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money. If you make money, great. If you don't, declare bankruptcy and let the bank take the company as the collateral for your own loan-to-acquire.

Then the bank needs to smarten up.  And no taxpayer guarantees.

Posted by: pep

Yeah, generally the banks aren't getting screwed on these deals either.  Its not like they're in the habit of loaning millions to people who plan to cash out the money and then default (unless they're illegals with no reported income who want to buy a McMansion, but I digress).

So usually in these deals (1) Bain or its equivalent is intending to try and turn the company around, not loot it, and they have a good track record of doing that, (2) the company is so badly managed that the the bank figures the assets of the company can be sold off for something pretty close to the purchase value of the company as a whole, or (3) the company that gets bought is already in debt bad to the bank, which is willing to take a risk to maybe recoup its original loans

139

Poker wisdom: when playing a known losing hand, and everybody knows it, fold.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream, Non-Christian Cultist for Jesus at January 12, 2012 04:11 PM (epBek)

Lets wait and see if it really is a losing hand.

140 Using LBOs the way you're talking about is a more a alt-newspaper/Hollywood scriptwriter stereotype than an actual reality This is exactly what pisses me off about the finacially illiterate and semi-literate. Like when these idiots whine about how "I don't like derivatives" with absolutely no comprehension of how stupid they sound. They might as well blurt "I'm against molecules!" A leveraged buyout is the acquisition of a company with borrowed money. It is not always securitized with the acquired company's assets. It is securitized with by the assets that will afford the lender the most security and the borrower the most favorable rate and terms. The acquired company's assets are NOT always sold to pay off the debt and "flip" the company, even though that SOMETIMES happens. It is more frequent that the acquiring company relies on already stable and projected cash flows from the acquired company to both service the debt and enhance profitability. FUCK this ignorance is annoying.

141

>>>At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

The point where you figure out how to make the company's cash flow service the debt. Sometimes by selling assets and retiring a portion of the debt. Sometimes by streamlining operations and dumping poor and expensive management.

The theory is that companies are inefficiently managed and are not producing for the owners. If they were managed well, the stock would make it prohibitively expensive to LBO. If it can be LBO'd, then by definition it is not being managed correctly.

The risk is borne by the holders of the LBO debt. They are almost like new shareholders because if the company fails they get the hit--there are no more shareholders.

Bain gets paid for identifying the target, figuring out how to best manage the assets for cash flow and they get paid to find investors, bond buyers and the banking expertise to put these deals together.

Oh, and sometimes after some years have passed, the businesses fail anyway. I'm sure there have been fraudulent conveyances, but if Bain has never lost a suit for FC then I think you can pretty much call them vetted on that front. People don't just neglect to sue for fraudulent conveyance, time being of the essence and all.

 

142

Nevertheless, the CommonwealthÂ’s debt burden remains among the highest in the nation by certain measures.

If Perry were saying *that* instead of attacking Romney from the Das Kapital playbook, you wouldn't be having to make excuses for him.

143 Massachusetts has reduced the share of its population that lacks coverage from an estimated 8.3 percent in 2006 to an estimated 2.6 percent by June 2008. Former Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican who signed the Massachusetts reforms into law, boasts that "no other state has made as much progress in covering their uninsured." Yet that achievement carries an exorbitant price tag: at least $2.1 billion this year, according to the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, a figure that doesn't even include the cost of the additional coverage discussed above. Since Massachusetts has covered just 432,000 previously uninsured residents, the cost of covering a previously uninsured family of four — at least $20,000 — is well above the average cost of an employer-sponsored family policy (about $13,000). Had state officials not done their level best to hide those costs — the individual mandate pushed 60 percent of the cost off-budget, while expanding eligibility for Medicaid pushed another 20 percent onto the federal budget — no one would be hailing Massachusetts as a model. As it is, Massachusetts has fooled some prominent watchdogs. The Boston Globe editorializes that the cost to the state taxpayer is "about $88 million a year," when the actual cost to state taxpayers is 19 times that amount, and the total cost is 24 times that amount. CATO Institute http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php? pub_id=10488

144 i've got 12 of the 1144 delegates needed for the nomination no one can over come that lead! insurmountable i tell you!

145 >>>Keep on pretending this is the sort of "business" that people think of as "business." Most people think of working something up from nothing and producing stuff is "business."

>>>You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers.

Holy shit, Ace is going full retard.

Are you really that desperate to defend the egregious, indefensible Rick Perry?

I literally cannot believe I'm reading Ace writing this shit. 

146 concern troll sock off

147 To all the people trying to educate Ace on this thread ...

It's pointless to argue with an ideologue.

For months we've been told "Perry is the WON".

Next we'll hear that Ace died in a "giant hottub pudding accident" and the only witness will be a hobo who overpowered his destroyed manhood.

148 >>>I never thought Ace would go Charles Johnson, and he hasn't. Instead, he's gone full-blown Democrat.

This is, honest-to-goodness, a shameful moment in the history of this blog. A low point.  A first for me, actually. 

149 To cope with the cost of its reforms, Massachusetts created a legislative commission that has recommended moving the entire market to a single, Canadian-style payment system that would encourage doctors and hospitals to ration care. The Legislature also plans to leverage its power under the individual mandate to require "evidence-based purchasing strategies," which is another way of saying government bureaucrats may soon be deciding who gets medical care and who does not. [...] Massachusetts shows that Obama's individual mandate would expand federal power by enabling it to ration care to patients under age 65. Though initially popular, enthusiasm for the Massachusetts reforms may be on the wane. A recent poll found that more Massachusetts voters say the law has made health insurance less affordable (27 percent) than believe it has made coverage more affordable (21 percent). Voters who believe the reforms have been a failure outnumber those who believe the reforms have been a success by 37 percent to 26 percent. CATO Institute

150 Reminder 'rons, of 1500 delegates, Romney has the awesome total of...15.

Talk about your 1%ers.

Get back to me when we have real numbers to talk about.

151 ace: "You can spin the GOP, but try spinning unemployed workers."

So to win the vote, you yield the argument to stupid people, aka voters, who cannot understand business? You want to go with killing capitalism to save it?

How do you do the philosophical 180 to save the nation (and retain integrity) when, assuming the stunt works, you convince people that "creative destruction" is evil and that sacrificing a few unemployed workers now for the gain of even more employed workers later is too hard a sell?

Perry's argument for political expediency is stupid. More and more like the voters every day, I guess.

152 My problem is that you're not buying something with your own money. You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt. You use the assets of the thing being purchased to fund its purchase. You mean, like a HOUSE?

153 This is, honest-to-goodness, a shameful moment in the history of this blog. A low point.  A first for me, actually.

Same here.  I used to love the wit.  The snark.  The intelligent posts. 

These kind of posts just remind me of this:

http://tinyurl.com/645gj2

154 Oh, blow me with your histrionics, JeffB. Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think. We just had a year of populism on the RIGHT directed at Wall Street but apparently you didn't notice.

155 >> FUCK this ignorance is annoying.

What he said.

156 When you swallow a Juan Amnesty McVain (The Other Soros Candidate) in the name of beating a one-term communist senator with 155 days in the senate, the next logical candidate is the man with magic undies, and Juan recently backed the next failed Gay Old Party nominee, so he agrees.

157 Guys! Let's all keep the in-fighting to a minimum. We'll have plenty of time to hate each other later when we're all trying to figure who's fault it is that Romney got the nomination and lost.

158

You mean, like a HOUSE?

 

...or a car?

159

102 I'm shocked, shocked that people who have opposed Romney for months are just now reaffirming their lifelong opposition to venture capitalism.
Posted by: Lincolntf at January 12, 2012 04:07 PM (hiMsy)

Lol!

 

146, Lets wait and see if it really is a losing hand.

Posted by: You know, THAT kind of conservative christian commenter

Trying to criticize capitalist investment to conservatives is *always* a losing hand, honeycakes.

160 162 Oh, blow me with your histrionics, JeffB. Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think. We just had a year of populism on the RIGHT directed at Wall Street but apparently you didn't notice. Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 04:22 PM (nj1bB) Pretty sure 2010 was about Government debt, Obamacare, and Government corruption.

161 The Massachusetts plan was supposed to accomplish two things-achieve universal health insurance coverage while controlling costs. As Romney wrote in the Wall Street Journal, "Every uninsured citizen in Massachusetts will soon have affordable health insurance and the costs of health care will be reduced." In reality, the plan has done neither. Perhaps the most publicized aspect of the Massachusetts reform is its mandate that every resident have health insurance, whether provided by an employer or the government or purchased individually. "I like mandates," Romney said during a debate in New Hampshire. "The mandate works." But did it? Technically the last day to sign up for insurance in compliance with that mandate was November 15, though as a practical measure Massachusetts residents actually had until January 1, 2008. Those without insurance as of that date will lose their personal exemption for the state income tax when they file this spring. In 2009, the penalty will increase to 50 percent of the cost of a standard insurance policy. cato.org Mitt Romney-"I like MANDATES" Damn -he's a genius and he still stands by-RomneyCare being right for Massachusetts-even if it would cost him the primary.

162 We just had a year of populism on the RIGHT directed at Wall Street but apparently you didn't notice.

So OWS is now from the Right?

Fuck that.  I would never associate with their stupidity and neither will the other million or so Tea Party folks who are appalled by their behavior.

163

 Aurvant at January 12, 2012 04:23 PM

Have a feeling the Romney camp has a write up on how Evangelical Christians didn't turn out for him because he's a Mormon. Regardless of what does him in if he loses, I know who will get the blame.

 

164 I can sing hymns about how trial lawyers and criminal defense lawyers are absolutely indispensable to our system of justice, too. System would literally not work with out them. So let's nominate them, too. I think the desperate cries in complaint here are directly related to the damage you anticipate. Hence the "shut up" card being played. Well, Obama doesn't have a blog. You cant' snipe at him to shut up. When I and most people think of business, they think of the sort of thing they do -- producing a tangible good or service.

165 MA unemployment rate ranked 17th TX unemployment rate ranked 28th Kind of deceiving isn't it? Exactly.

166

I don't think LBO's are Sharia Compliant.

167 You mean, like a HOUSE?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at January 12, 2012 04:22 PM (XE2Oo)

According to Perry yes, He said he has a real problem if you buy a house, finance it, sell it and keep all the profits yourself that he doesn't like it.

I don't know how you defend that statement with any voter anywhere.

168 Well, I feel no need to bash Ace on this. I think he's just kinda ill-informed on this issue and his instincts have led him down a blind alley. Economics and capitalism can be counter-intuitive. LBOs just *seem* wrong to many, probably most, people. Sadly, the corrupt ruling class uses this popular revulsion to cement themselves in power. Hell, I wish we had LBOs for municipal govt which suffers the same principal-agent problem where the govt ruling class manages affairs to enrich themselves and not the citizens.

169 This isn't really any different for Ace than his Palin dislike. He's always been a creature of electability. Even though Romney isn't that electable anyway. I'm with Palin and Newt on this. I don't really think anything bad happened at Bain since I can't really tell. But I don't think we should just lock it up in a black box and wait until an October surprise reveals it for us. We should go through it now and figure out what it all means. I mean, look how thoroughly and relentlessly everybody dug into Cain's supposed past, true or not. But Romney gets a pass?

170 Romney Supre Hero of Capitalism- Founding Father of Socialized medicine in the USA. And you guys-the Romney fans are the brilliant ones. Romney is The Capitalist We've All Been Waiting For....

171 >>>Pretty sure 2010 was about Government debt, Obamacare, and Government corruption. Awful lot of bitterness about TARP bailing out Wall Street, too. I guess you didn't catch that.

172 >>>Economics and capitalism can be counter-intuitive. LBOs just *seem* wrong to many, probably most, people. But let's ignore that. I got it-- We'll EDUCATE people!

173 Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.

We just had a year of populism on the RIGHT directed at Wall Street but apparently you didn't notice.



Yeah, and Perry doesn't play worth a fuck anywhere. Rage on the right toward Wall Street is about crony capitalism and Big Government for fucks sake. If you can make that argument about Bain, I'd love to hear it. Perry's a damn turd, you're going to have to get used to it.

174 I think the desperate cries in complaint here are directly related to the damage you anticipate. Hence the "shut up" card being played.

No.  The complaints are that you're advancing a narrative based on ignorance ...

Rick Perry obviously knows nothing about how free market capitalism is supposed to work and because you have a man crush, you're promoting his ignorance.

175 Awful lot of bitterness about TARP bailing out Wall Street, too. I guess you didn't catch that. Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 04:26 PM (nj1bB) That's because most of the GOP candidates didn't make the TARP bailouts the main thrust of their pitch. I'm not the only one that doesn't recall any GOP candidates railing against Wall Street as a focus point of their campaign.

176 I honestly don't think Romney has to stones to do that no matter how right-of-center is the next CONgress

Even if he had the stones, congress is already through the looking glass, and would completely ignore the president's budget proposals and send him spending bills that had no resemblance to his proposals.

177 When I and most people think of business, they think of the sort of thing they do -- producing a tangible good or service.

Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 04:25 PM (nj1bB)

You mean like Staples who employs 90,000, Sports Authority, Dominos Pizza a steel company who's name I can't remember. Businesses like those?

178

So to win the vote, you yield the argument to stupid people, aka voters, who cannot understand business? You want to go with killing capitalism to save it?

 

Short term memory there?  The SCOAMT won in 2008 by doing this very thing.

179

162.....Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.
------------

It won't. .....These people who think otherwise are kidding themselves. Given the choice between Barky or Willard, lots of voters out here will just stay home and work on their underground bunkers.

Hang in there, Ace. These Romneybot coyotees are just yipping at the moon.

If we lose this one to the JEF......you could always move out here and do your blog from the wind-washed plains.

180 181 >>>Economics and capitalism can be counter-intuitive. LBOs just *seem* wrong to many, probably most, people. But let's ignore that. I got it-- We'll EDUCATE people! Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 04:27 PM (nj1bB) So if we are not going to educate people, what is the point of the conservative new media in the first place other than generating commentary?

181 You mean like Staples who employs 90,000, Sports Authority, Dominos Pizza a steel company who's name I can't remember. Businesses like those?

Shut up.  Those aren't "real" businesses (see: they have no union presence and were probably moved to states with Right-to-Work states)

182 158 Reminder 'rons, of 1500 delegates, Romney has the awesome total of...15.

Talk about your 1%ers.

Get back to me when we have real numbers to talk about.

Posted by: DarkLord©, Rogue Commenter

 

Real, live bettors at InTrade who are risking their own money have Romney at close to 90% likely to be the GOP nominee.  Why?  Because the suckiness and divisions in the rest of the field that let Romney win no. 1 and no. 2 are still there.  Because Romney still has way more cash and organization.  And because historically voters are *very* likely to coalesce around someone who looks like a winner.

If you feel strongly about one of the other sucky candidates, go all in with $ and your time now, because if Romney wins SC, even by just a handful of votes, its over.

He's up by about 20 percentage points in Florida, btw. 

183 >> Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.

Dude, that's a totally different argument than claiming that there's something inherently wrong with an LBO or that private equity is somehow an illegitimate form of business.

184
The people who are getting screwed are the stockholders when it is a public company took private.  What will happen is the new venture will make the ceo and board wealthy in return for a share vote that sells the company at below market.

Now screwed is a YMMV term I'm using because shareholders could have sold at any time the bad numbers were coming in, but still alot of the time these meetings are secret and its a done deal by that time and the stock is down to the buyout offering.

185 Rick Perry obviously knows nothing about how free market capitalism is supposed to work

It's hardly just Rick Perry, its the whole fucking US Govt for the past 80 years.  There's so much govt induced friction and distortion in our system, to even consider it to be any form of free market capitalism is wishful thinking.

186 Awful lot of bitterness about TARP bailing out Wall Street, too.

Considering how many of those bailed out are tight with the White House Gang, I suspect there's a point being missed here.

187

" because if Romney wins SC, even by just a handful of votes, its over."

this is 100% the case. A Romney win in SC will send him on to the nomination.

Perry has to win or pull a close 2nd or else he should shut his candidacy down that night  as well. Santorum and Gingrich should probably do the same. Who knows what Huntsman will do.

 

188 162 Oh, blow me with your histrionics, JeffB.

Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.

We just had a year of populism on the RIGHT directed at Wall Street but apparently you didn't notice.

Posted by: ace

 

You might as well include me in your tantrum too.  I'm not a Rombot, but I agree that your post and your comments are a lowpoint for the blog.  Whiny, unconservative, unprincipled, acting on pure negative emotion . . .

But its your blog, bitch for socialism if you want to.

 

189 Real, live bettors at InTrade who are risking their own money have Romney at close to 90% likely to be the GOP nominee.

I'm sorry, which part of the Constitution decrees InTrade as the means by which candidates are chosen and elected, again?

190 The question is how are the swing states going to hear this message. Will they see it as un-American class warfare or is their no such thing anymore.

191 Ace, you might be right on the politics of this, I don't know. But you aren't implying that -- hey, voters are economically illiterate and won't understand the complexities of LBOs. You seem to be implying that you agree with the criticisms of the economically illiterate. It's like being concerned that most voters distrust and don't understand the science of evolution vs going on a rant about evolution is only a "theory" and hey, where are the man-gorilla hybrid missing link fossils.

192 It's hardly just Rick Perry, its the whole fucking US Govt for the past 80 years.  There's so much govt induced friction and distortion in our system, to even consider it to be any form of free market capitalism is wishful thinking.

Totally agreed.  But Ace is basically promoting the continued CRONY SOCIALISM that made Rick Perry (and 99% of our politicians) a millionaire ...

I don't think all of Wall Street is angelic, but there are a lot of smart people that work in finance who make our world a better place because they're innovators, investors, and risk takers.

193

Ace, you seem to have found another catnip topic for your legal beagles.

Capitalism MUST not be questioned, ever.  And if it's not explicitly written in the Constitution, then no government should do it/not do it, as the case may be.

Or dognip, I guess.

 

194

>>>So let's nominate them, too.

Hey, the Donks never run a candidate that isn't a trial lawyer or some other form of parasite.

Ace isn't going anti-capitalist as much as he's doubting he can help sell the Bain Magnificance, which is understandable. I'd point out that when Romney criticized Perry's "Ponzi Scheme" formulation he wasn't claiming SS is in great shape but rather that he doesn't think a candidate can win with that message. You guys were right up Romney's ass for selling Perry out and criticizing him from the Left.

As much as we like that somebody's telling the truth in harsh terms, others don't like it as much. Same story with Bain, which is why I kinda like all the histrionics today and not September.

195 At which point in this process did you add value yourself?

You add value by shifting capital away from under-performing businesses in favor of businesses (including your own) offering more to the marketplace.

It's the destruction itself that adds the value in those cases.

196 181 >>>Economics and capitalism can be counter-intuitive. LBOs just *seem* wrong to many, probably most, people.

But let's ignore that. I got it-- We'll EDUCATE people!

Posted by: ace

 

Education doesn't always work, but it doesn't help when you have prominent GOP candidates--names rhymes with Gingrich and Perry--and prominent bloggers--names rhyme with Level 4 elf-Ranger--who are actively spreading disinformation.

197 I think the desperate cries in complaint here are directly related to the damage you anticipate. Hence the "shut up" card being played. No, dude. It's not desperation. It's frustration that because you don't understand this type of finance, and there are attacks on it from Perry, there must be no way to defend Bain's practices from the right. Or in a way that the average voter will understand. Simple, clean and concise. Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it's not there, ready to heal your ignorance with the power of its fucking awesomeness. Reject this faggotry, ace. TAKE MY HAND.

198

"You guys were right up Romney's ass for selling Perry out and criticizing him from the Left."

And we were told by the Romney Fan Club that "IT was just politics" and we should "grow up if we can't handle rough politics".

Sounds like this is just politics from Perry. So therefore it is a stoning offense.

199 Ace, you might be right on the politics of this, I don't know. But you aren't implying that -- hey, voters are economically illiterate and won't understand the complexities of LBOs. You seem to be implying that you agree with the criticisms of the economically illiterate.

Exactly.  Instead of writing a blog post promoting Perry's ignorance ...

WRITE A FUCKING BLOG POST THAT EXPLAINS THE GOOD THAT LBO'S PROVIDE ... THERE'S PLENTY OF MATERIAL IN THIS THREAD OWNING YOUR ASS ON A LOGICAL AND INTELLECTUAL BASIS. 

/not a Romney guy, but hate our crony socialism system and amazed that Ace is promoting it based on politics instead of explaining the good that Bain Capital might have done

200
Ace is right on the politics of it.  Bad economy should be the R's wheelhouse to the white house.  But with Romney, its gonna be all for not, due to a billion dollars of "he's an economic thief" thrown at him, not to mention Romneycare = Obamacare.

You Rombots should consider anybody else, that guy over there, or that one, or that one.  Anybody but Romney, but you won't and you will lose.

201

And don't forget that this "turd" Perry sounds and acts exactly like George W. Bush, whom the country basically fired just one election ago.

Yea, that'll play in the sticks.

202 Venture capitalism is like a badge of slavery. Also, longbows.

203 199 Real, live bettors at InTrade who are risking their own money have Romney at close to 90% likely to be the GOP nominee.

I'm sorry, which part of the Constitution decrees InTrade as the means by which candidates are chosen and elected, again?

Posted by: DarkLord©, Rogue Commenter

 

What part of *prediction* markets don't you understand?

The Constitution doesn't say the President is elected based on how the economy is doing.  The Constitution doesn't say that you can't get elected President if you make a thing of sleeping with trannies in Thailand.  But back in the real world, those matter.

If you're so much smarter than the people on InTrade, go take their money and make a killing.

 

204

"whom the country basically fired "

I missed the vote total. How badly did he lose?

 

205 I mean shit ... make Empire of Jeff an honorary blogger for a post and have explain how Romney should go about defending his Bain Capital record and how LBO's work to create market efficiency ...

Most of the time, LBO's take place on distressed companies that are looking for a partner or buyout to save their mismanagement of resources, capital, or flawed execution strategy.  They're not Apple being overtaken by the Halliburton overlords, and most LBO's result in jobs being saved vs. bankruptcy ...

206 When I and most people think of business, they think of the sort of thing they do -- producing a tangible good or service.

But let's ignore that. I got it-- We'll EDUCATE people!


C'mon ace, who in their right mind thought Bain Capital made a product or was a bank of some sorts?  That is a weak sauce argument. Nobody has to be a freak'n CEO or an accountant to know what a financial service is. And that still doesn't excuse Newt and Perry from ignoring the services and benefits someone like Bain does provide to score cheap political points.

207

There is one bright light is all of this and several people have touched on this in an oddly indirect way.

Most of the population of the US that's under the age of 50 don't really comprehend the argument here.  And if they don't comprehend the argument, they're going to tune out, as I'm sure many already have.  Perry, I think, still has a chance if he gets off of this particular soapbox soon enough and starts talking to the population in simpler terms.  Like, "If you want to get a job and start providing for your families again, vote for me".

208

 >>>its a done deal by that time and the stock is down to the buyout offering.

I have never seen a buyout price that didn't offer a premium to market. Otherwise why would anybody sell?

>>>Sounds like this is just politics from Perry. So therefore it is a stoning offense.

I'm not up Perry or Ace's ass for pointing out how hard this is to sell. When they toss in with the Left in actually criticizing a practice they show no semblance of understanding I might grumble a little, but Mitt didn't criticize Perry on the facts or morality of his statement but the intemperance.

 

209 201 Ace, you might be right on the politics of this, I don't know. But you aren't implying that -- hey, voters are economically illiterate and won't understand the complexities of LBOs. You seem to be implying that you agree with the criticisms of the economically illiterate.

It's like being concerned that most voters distrust and don't understand the science of evolution vs going on a rant about evolution is only a "theory" and hey, where are the man-gorilla hybrid missing link fossils.

Posted by: Clubber Lang

You got it.  Electability doesn't mean we have to take the ignorant left seriously, let alone repeat their arguments like we mean them.

210

Gore's state chairman, right?

He was. in 1988.24 years ago.

Your point?

211 where are the man-gorilla hybrid missing link fossils.

What developed into the human and ape lines split several million years ago.  The common ancestors are those small bipedal creatures in Africa.

212

we still beat your ass in 1960

 

Ask McGovern why he was crying in 72 on election night.

213

So in an election year where the real unemployment rate is over 10%, we're all going to jump on the Romney bandwagon because he successfully made money by putting even more people out of work. I think everybody gets that it's part of capitalism, "creative destruction", etc.

I also get that vultures and maggots are an essential part of the cycle of life. I mean who wants to be up to their necks in dead squirrels?  However, if I want to start a pro-sports team in a major market, I don't think I'm going to draw many investors with my "Massachusetts Maggots" pitch.

When the "most electable conservative" is Pro-Choice, Pro-TARP, Pro-MediScare, Pro-Individual Mandate Mitt Romney, I think it's time to admit that conservatism is dead. 

214 Where's Monty on this issue? I have faith Monty can show Ace the light on this. Come, let us reason together.

215 I have never seen a buyout price that didn't offer a premium to market. Otherwise why would anybody sell?

You are forced to if the people that control 51% of the stock vote to sell.  You have no choice, they send you the money and you no longer have the stock.  These aren't the big takeover deals between two monster well going companies.  This is about a firm making a deal with the "powers" at the corporation to get a price that they want.

216 where are the man-gorilla hybrid missing link fossils. In the Rosie O'Donnell family crypt?

217

Rick made a great first impression the first few days but he was battling massive wildfires in TX as well as suffering from recent back surgery.  I know that we conservatives are not happy with Mitt being the nominee. It's only January. Rick can make a comeback but it must be soon, in  SC. I hope he's doing all the retail politics they love there. 

A few bad debates and he was written off. I can't watch Hannity now, he's really pissed me off with how much he's gone off on Rick Perry. I had him on last night only for Sarah Palin. I thought she might endorse him but she did not.

218 Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.

An Obama-Perry debate will be awesome, especially when Obama brings out the racial stuff and the crony-capitalism stuff.

Perry can't lose.

219 And I like your old one, you ole bigot.

220 Mitt Romney is a plastic socially-liberal phony who was flipping and flopping all over the place like a dying fish on the docks.

221 What part of *prediction* markets don't you understand?

Wall Street or a commodities exchange, those are markets.

InTrade is glorified gambling.  It doesn't do a damn thing to advance anything put to it, other than facilitate side wagers.

"Trending on InTrade" tells me exactly jack shit about something.  I know there will be a convention, and there will be roughly 1500 delegates, and only a very few of those are spoken for, from maybe two states just now.

At no part does InTrade have a damn thing to do with any of it.

Unless you think the mere act of placing a bet in Vegas will guarantee a team's victory.  In which case, toke on.

222 201 Ace, you might be right on the politics of this, I don't know. But you aren't implying that -- hey, voters are economically illiterate and won't understand the complexities of LBOs. You seem to be implying that you agree with the criticisms of the economically illiterate.

It's like being concerned that most voters distrust and don't understand the science of evolution vs going on a rant about evolution is only a "theory" and hey, where are the man-gorilla hybrid missing link fossils.

Posted by: Clubber Lang at January 12, 2012 04:35 PM (QcFbt)

Yeah, evolution is a bad example, in the 21st century, at least.  Instead, take an issue like Gay Marriage.  Doesn't every candidate in the R Party, no matter how conservative or libertarian, say they're against it? 

And yet, from the libertarian, strict constructionist perspective, isn't that absurd?  So why do they wink at it?  Politics, that's why.  The rubes haven't evolved (see what I did there?) enough to figure out that Gay Marriage will not turn their own marriages into an orgy of naughtiness, so the politicians don't argue with them on this.

Same with the precious venture capitalist nonsense.  Sure, Mitt is perfectly fine doing whatever he wants.  It's his risk and all that. But he's going to get slammed on this all summer and fall.  It is potentially a politically suicidal position from which to be arguing, and frankly Mitt's not arguing. 

That's what I find most interesting.  And I think that's why Newt started down this path. He was going to show the party that Mitt is too gutless to defend his own record. I don't care about Rick Perry's "me too" stuff here. This is Newt calling Mitt's bluff, and showing the risk of running an empty suit for President.

223

"Obama brings out the racial stuff "

You mean the racist rock that showed how stupid Cain was? Yep, that would be as effective as Obama thinking Romney for being the inspiration for Obamacare I'm sure. Or asking why the Mormon church discriminated against blacks until the mid 1980's in it's ministerial selections.

Sure thing.

 

224 Soona: "Short term memory there? The SCOAMT won in 2008 by doing this very thing."

And that's the very point. Bush did great damage with that. "Too Big To Fail" led to the moral hazard we embrace today. Anyone looking in hindsight notes, "Why the fuck should I listen to those guys again?" It's wisdom like that that poisons the well for any future.

Again, short-term expediency results in generational catastrophe. Now, if the politician wants to lie to get a new job wherein he sates the voters ignorance to a degree that kills a nation because the lie becomes an institutional truth, well that is an option. I also think it a foolish one.

225 "You were doing allright Mitt, 'till you started talking about poke her"

226
InTrade is a good predictor, it had the Steelers all the way last week and they just kicked the B....wait....real live people with their own money were wrong...no way.

227 InTrade is glorified gambling.  It doesn't do a damn thing to advance anything put to it, other than facilitate side wagers.

"Trending on InTrade" tells me exactly jack shit about something.  I know there will be a convention, and there will be roughly 1500 delegates, and only a very few of those are spoken for, from maybe two states just now.

At no part does InTrade have a damn thing to do with any of it.

Unless you think the mere act of placing a bet in Vegas will guarantee a team's victory.  In which case, toke on.

Posted by: DarkLord©, Rogue Commenter

 

They don't *cause* things to happen.  Duh.  That's why  its called a prediction market, not an outcome market.  They're just *predicting,* and backing up their predictions with their money.

Like I said, if you really think Romney doesn't have a good chance, go make a killing.  History and common sense says you'll lose, but its your money.

228

You take on debt, buy something with that debt, and then use the assets of that company to secure the debt

So you're against home mortgages?

229 The problem with Romney's tenure at Bain: While his position was entirely necessary and the services Bain provided are assuredly examples of Capitalism, they are still very volatile subjects in the realm of politics. When your state was ranked 47th in job creation during your term and your past private market experience is primarily in liquidating failing companies, you're not going to be a very convincing candidate for job creation in a failing economy. It doesn't matter how necessary that kind of job is, the people won't see it that way and the media sure as hell won't help him with that. Also, in case you hadn't figured this out, Romney is going to be forced to defend his record on Romneycare. Obama's main darling piece of legislation is Obamacare and I'm supposed to believe that the ONLY MAN who can grant us a repeal of that damned bill is the harbinger of its precursor? What kind of crap logic is that?

230 Nobody's has a clue how carbon credits work so let's forfeit that argument. Nobody has a clue on GSE work, so let's forfeit that argument. Nobody has a clue on how our progressive tax structure really works, so let's forfeit that argument. Nobody really knows how government pensions are financed, so let's forfeit that argument. Nobody has a clue how Medicare is financed or run and how it effects all healthcare insurance, so let's forfeit that argument, etc. etc.

231 Or asking why the Mormon church discriminated against blacks until the mid 1980's in it's ministerial selections.

Sure thing.

 

Posted by: Dick Nixon

Late 1970s, if you're keeping score at home.

232 Like I said, if you really think Romney doesn't have a good chance, go make a killing.

Didn't say he didn't.  I *DID* say, repeatedly, that it's early and the deal isn't sealed yet.

I don't hold much stock in prediction when this many unknowns are in play.  Strange things happen in politics...some bloody weird stuff has happened in this season alone.  Don't call him the nominee until the convention makes him the nominee.

233 212

And don't forget that this "turd" Perry sounds and acts exactly like George W. Bush, whom the country basically fired just one election ago.

Yea, that'll play in the sticks.

---------

And how do you think we talk and act out here in the sticks, dumbass. .....We sound like Perry, more than W. ......And there are millions and millions of us.

234 Empire of Jeff: FUCK this ignorance is annoying.

Agreed. I recently was having a conversation about how we needs to start teaching kids the concept of complex numbers earlier. That people can't think in these concepts which are fundamental for many physical paradigms (and they are more difficult for many to pick up later) since they weren't exposed to them early enough. Thus, the concept seems alien to them (how can you have a sqrt of -1?!)

Just as the concept of a negative number was alien to many before the 16th century -- How can you have less than zero cows? But, in the west it was the financial industry which adopted it for financial transactions.

Yet, here we have Ace & Co. -- in the 21st century -- unable to tackle the concept of loaning money: "You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money."

235 Romney will do nothing about obamacare other than enshrine it for generations to our detriment.

236

"Late 1970s, if you're keeping score at home."

15 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act. You want to bet Obama brings it up? He will, right after he again gives Romney the credit for being the inspiration for Obamacare.

Look if Romney gets the nomination I am voting for him without hesitation. But, he is vulnerable on a good bit of stuff.  In debates, Romeny will have to be in total control of the tone of the debate or Obama and the mediators will leave him in the garbage can.

 

237 >>>Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.

Sorry, I don't think Mr. Retarded Bush-Redux Moron Crony-Capitalist Culture Warrior Who Can't String Two Sentences Together Exudes Incompetence is going to play in the suburbs as well as you guys think.

Oh, and here's another thing you don't fucking seem to understand: the swing voters in this election?  They aren't sticks-dwellers.  They're suburbanites.

238 The thing is.....how do Perry and Gingrich walk back their support of the Obama model of "capitalism"? Even if they do destroy Romney and one of them become the nominee, exactly how do they attract the real capitalists that they are trashing? And if they don't succeed in getting the nomination, do they really think they can go back to their previous lives with any credibility at all? Any GOP candidate that has adopted this line of attack has basically ruined their chance to run as a free market capitalist ever again.

239 >>>And how do you think we talk and act out here in the sticks, dumbass. .....We sound like Perry, more than W. ......And there are millions and millions of us.

And you're all located in safely red states. 

240 "You've literally bought something for nothing. At that point it's all Mad Money."

People were making such statements in the pre-16th century period; before the advent of negative numbers. There was a huge philosophical and religious dispute over the validity and even possibility of the number line existing on the other side of zero.

But don't feel too bad Ace, as late 1769, Francis Maserer was saying that negative numbers "darken the very whole doctrines of the equations and make dark of the things which are in their nature excessively obvious and simple". He came to the conclusion that negative numbers were nonsensical (wiki).

241 253 >>>Sorry, I don't think Mr. Corporate Raider is going to play in the sticks as well as you guys seem to think.

Sorry, I don't think Mr. Retarded Bush-Redux Moron Crony-Capitalist Culture Warrior Who Can't String Two Sentences Together Exudes Incompetence is going to play in the suburbs as well as you guys think.

Oh, and here's another thing you don't fucking seem to understand: the swing voters in this election?  They aren't sticks-dwellers.  They're suburbanites.

Posted by: Jeff B. at January 12, 2012 04:59 PM (TsYLl)

Perry is not going to be the nominee, Romney is.  You needn't concern yourself with how Perry plays, in or out of the sticks.  But how are you going to sell your precious, shiny turd, Mitt?  Have you even thought of that?

242 You mean the racist rock that showed how stupid Cain was? Yep, that would be as effective as Obama thinking Romney for being the inspiration for Obamacare I'm sure. Or asking why the Mormon church discriminated against blacks until the mid 1980's in it's ministerial selections.

The Dems will have trouble with saying anything about Romney's religion, because that opens the door to Reverend Wright and Pfather Pfleger. Romney's shown he's willing to play hardball, so I think he'd hit back on that front. The Romneycare-Obamacare issue is harder, but if Romney sticks to his guns about repealing Obamacare, he can overcome it.

With Perry, all they have to do is say "N*gger Rock" for a few months, and all Obama has to do is bring it up in the debates, in front of a national audience.

The Bain issue, in the end, will be too esoteric for the average voter, but the race issue is still Obama's strong suit. It's almost all he has left.

People who say anybody but Romney need to ask themselves this: We've been told that the Dems want to run against Romney. So why are they preparing a full-out Bain assault on him now? Why now?

243 During the general, when Obama drags out the sound bites of Gingrich and Perry trashing Romney, I expect the both of them will hold their heads high.

Desperate people do really dumb stuff.

244 I'm willing to accept that Romney is not a great candidate: I've been calling him unelectable here for months. But that doesn't excuse Ace's defending Mr. 6th place conservative in friggin' South Carolina for going after a proper and necessary function of capitalism, using language of the extreme left.

Hell, this is something Mitt Romney was actually very good at, and he did good for people and the economy as a whole with his work at Bain. The fact people get fired in business when the business isn't profitable? Cry me a river.

What the Hell else is new?

Ace -- Perry's politically dead in this race. 1% in New Hampshire, piss-poor showing in Iowa, polling near last in South Carolina where he should do well -- having pissed off voters with his inept social conservative pandering preceded by his inept debating and followed by his inept grasp of capitalist economics. Stick a fork in him. He's done, and no more than he deserves to be, either, that's for damn sure.

So maybe we don't even have a good candidate this cycle. That's possible. Perry isn't it in any case.

245

"With Perry, all they have to do is say "N*gger Rock" for a few months, and all Obama has to do is bring it up in the debates, in front of a national audience. "

That had no impact on Perry after he refuted it. Cain was the only person stupid enough to fall for that invented story.

 

246 Look if Romney gets the nomination I am voting for him without hesitation. But, he is vulnerable on a good bit of stuff. In debates, Romeny will have to be in total control of the tone of the debate or Obama and the mediators will leave him in the garbage can. Posted by: Dick Nixon at January 12, 2012 04:58 PM (kaOJx) And Perry will... Remember his own name??

247

255>>>And how do you think we talk and act out here in the sticks, dumbass. .....We sound like Perry, more than W. ......And there are millions and millions of us.

And you're all located in safely red states. 
----------

Red states that will likely favor Rick Perry, if he is still in the race when we get to vote.

And guess what......we have suburbs out here in the sticks, too. I live in one.

248 Oh, and here's another thing you don't fucking seem to understand: the swing voters in this election?  They aren't sticks-dwellers.  They're suburbanites.

Libs will vote lib, and cons will vote con. The people who will decide the election will be the swing voters.

Suburbanite independents will choose between Romney, Gingrich, Perry, Santorum, and Paul.

Ace said Palin wasn't electable based on her polling, but he thinks Perry is electable despite his polling.

Funny, that.

249 Look, let's get real here: Perry couldn't hold his own against Spaceman Paul, Tardisil Bachmann, and Mandingo 9-9-9 Cain. Romney did.

250 Again, short-term expediency results in generational catastrophe. Now, if the politician wants to lie to get a new job wherein he sates the voters ignorance to a degree that kills a nation because the lie becomes an institutional truth, well that is an option. I also think it a foolish one.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 12, 2012 04:52 PM (eHIJJ)

 

Our education system (understatement), the MFM, and pop culture have repeated the lie about bad free market capitalism so often and for so long that we have, at least, two generations who believe this as truth. 

So when the SCOAMT came along and started rattling off what these people thought was the truth, was he lying?  We know he was, but do they?  That's our problem.  That's why the repubs need to keep their message simple within the boundries of freedom and free market capitalism and not go off into the workings of Wall Street minutia.

What our candidates are forgetting is that they're going to have to "sell" free market capitalism all over again to a population who doesn't really know anything about.   

251 253Sorry, I don't think Mr. Retarded Bush-Redux Moron Crony-Capitalist Culture Warrior Who Can't String Two Sentences Together Exudes Incompetence is going to play in the suburbs as well as you guys think  Jeff B.

But we are to be convinced  how  Romney, who changes his opinions every year  , but seemingly convinces You He is sincere when he espouses  His strength of character and ideas?

you sound quite uppity

252

Romney did.

Posted by: CoolCzech at January 12, 2012 05:10 PM (niZvt)

By crying to Anderson Cooper to make the mean man stop.

253 Ace has gone the full Newt at this point.  He doesn't give a shit anymore, he's just in it for the anger.

Hey, whatever, it's his blog.

254 Clubber Lang, thanks for the clear explanations.

I agree that this should not have been used against Romney, and my opinions of Newt and Perry are even lower as a result of this.

But, come on.  We might as well nominate a repo man.  Hey, that's a valid and necessary job, too!

255 268 Romney did. Posted by: CoolCzech at January 12, 2012 05:10 PM (niZvt) By crying to Anderson Cooper to make the mean man stop. Posted by: buzzion at January 12, 2012 05:11 PM (GULKT) I don't care if he gives Cooper a BJ, as long as he does what it takes to get Obama out of the WH.

256

Czech, no offense, but, I was discussing Romney with another poster. I know, you are 100% Romney, but there is no need to bring up Perry into a discussion about Romney debating Obama.

You and I go far enough back to where you don't need to be a dick about anything. I understand that most posters here gave up on Perry after the vaccine issue and the heartless comment and embraced Mitt, a candidate without Perry's record. Thats ya'lls perogative.

It's mine to bring up that Obama will torch Romney on certain things in the debates. Mitt has to control the tone or he will get burned.

257

I don't care if he gives Cooper a BJ, as long as he does what it takes to get Obama out of the WH.

Posted by: CoolCzech at January 12, 2012 05:14 PM (niZvt)

Yeah, good luck with that.  I'm afraid we'll find out McCain had bigger balls in going after Obama than Romney does.

258

"Ace said Palin wasn't electable based on her polling,"

He was wrong. Palin was un electable because she lacked the spine to run.

 

259

"With Perry, all they have to do is say "N*gger Rock" for a few months, and all Obama has to do is bring it up in the debates, in front of a national audience. "

That had no impact on Perry after he refuted it. Cain was the only person stupid enough to fall for that invented story.

That's simply not true. It's a factoid now. Obama & Co. just have to associate him with the Confederacy and tell us again how importnat it is for our international reputation that the First Black President be a success, and I think enough people will agree.

I know lots and lots of people who voted for Obama because they said they wanted to be a part of electing the First Black President. And he still gets high likeability ratings, if you can believe it. I just don't think Perry would have a chance once they played every racial dirty trick in the book.

260 Romney is not electable. I am sorry, but that is just the way it is. He was forced on us because of that. The Repubs are not supposed to win this year. By not winning, it leaves the door open for Jeb.

261

"That's simply not true. It's a factoid now."

I haven't seen anything else about the Rock since Perry refuted the issue, something Cain overlooked, well before the first debates.

Someone brought up Cain earlier. Didn't he drop out because of his actions before Iowa?

262 Soona: "[...] What our candidates are forgetting is that they're going to have to 'sell' free market capitalism all over again to a population who doesn't really know anything about."

I agree completely. Now, who would be the best at it? I submit that of the candidates running, Newt. But he's the lead dunderhead here with Perry now doubling down on the stupid.

However, and I think you'll agree, selling a narrative doesn't mean sabotaging the truth. Do supposed conservatives contribute to the Idiocracy because it's easy, or do they do what they're supposed to do even if it's hard (and it's really not all that hard)? Frankly, I can be equally disgusted with either party if they choose Idiocracy.

263

Yeah, good luck with that.  I'm afraid we'll find out McCain had bigger balls in going after Obama than Romney does.

Posted by: buzzion at January 12, 2012 05:15 PM (GULKT)

 

I don't know.  Romney has had nothing to do these last four years but dream about hopping on AF1 and flying somewhere and talking with important people about important things.  I bet his wife already has a redecorator waiting in the wings ready to start to work on day one.

Plus, he's spent a shitload of his own money on this.  If he gets the nom, I think he's going to fight for his investment.

264 I don't hold much stock in prediction when this many unknowns are in play.  Strange things happen in politics...some bloody weird stuff has happened in this season alone.  Don't call him the nominee until the convention makes him the nominee.

Posted by: DarkLord©, Rogue Commenter

OK, if its all totally mysterious and unknown, make a killing off the suckers who think Romney has  a 90% chance at this point of wrapping it up.  History and common sense say you're wrong, but go ahead, cash out, o wise one.

 

252

"Late 1970s, if you're keeping score at home."

15 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act. You want to bet Obama brings it up? He will, right after he again gives Romney the credit for being the inspiration for Obamacare.

 

What's your point?  You  got the decade wrong, I corrected it.  You want we should get facts wrong?

265 However, and I think you'll agree, selling a narrative doesn't mean sabotaging the truth. Do supposed conservatives contribute to the Idiocracy because it's easy, or do they do what they're supposed to do even if it's hard (and it's really not all that hard)? Frankly, I can be equally disgusted with either party if they choose Idiocracy.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at January 12, 2012 05:21 PM (eHIJJ)

 

That's why I wrote upthread that these candidates need to find the simplest way to convey freedom.  Unfortunately, I'm beginning to believe that even they don't know what that means.

 

 

266

By crying to Anderson Cooper to make the mean man stop.

Posted by: buzzion at January 12, 2012 05:11 PM (GULKT)

I'm pretty sure the voting in Iowa and NH showed Perry to be a very bad bet for conservatives and independents alike. He is polling at 5% in SC and and less than that in Florida. Look, I had high hopes for Perry, but there came a time this past fall that I had to cut him loose as a viable candidate to take on Obama. Perry keeps talking about how we don't need a debater to fix the country. But we do need a debater to get past Obama so he can fix the country. Perry is incapable.

267 He may be smart, but he sounds dumb in the debates. So dumb that Obama might wind up sounding smart in comparison.

268 >>>Pretty sure 2010 was about Government debt, Obamacare, and Government corruption.

Awful lot of bitterness about TARP bailing out Wall Street, too.

I guess you didn't catch that.

Posted by: ace at January 12, 2012 04:26 PM (nj1bB)

Doesn't TARP & Wall St ultimately fall under government corruption?

269

Perry has had it tough from the beginning of his candidacy.  The establishment Republicans loathe him.

Romney is the establishments choice: both Democrat and Republican.

Perry has had to swim against the current. Romney, not so much.

I am not excusing Perry's inability to perform in debates or his camps complete lack of marketing foresight (he needs to be everywhere, and Everyman, for Everywoman).  However, if... and this is a huge if... they can now push hard on the PR and flirt with the MSM... they Perry camp might have a chance.

270 Seems to understand leveraged buyouts.

No, he doesn't.

Rick Perry frames the narrative, as if Venture Capital goes on a search and destroy mission. That's simply not true.

The fact is, the Owner of the Business is the one who goes knocking on the door of Venture Capital, hat in hand.

The reason the Business Owner is going to Venture Capital is, his company is going belly-up, and he's been to the bank, and the bank has decided not to loan him any more money. He's stuck.. He can't pay his creditors.. He can't make payroll. He's going bankrupt. His last resort:

The leveraged Buyout...

The Venture Capitalist and the Business Owner make an honest, aboveboard agreement, whereas the Venture Capitalist uses his credit to borrow money from a bank or other lending institution, using the Business Assets as collateral.

(With a simple Buyout, the Venture Capitalist is investing his own money.)

In return, the Owner agrees to turn over management of the Business to the Venture Capitalist. Keep in mind, it's the Venture Capitalist's credit on the line. He has every incentive to make the business solvent. If he can turn things around, everybody wins, ie. Staples

There is nothing underhanded or nefarious about Leveraged Buyouts, the way Rick Perry makes it sound.

The Idea of "Vulture Capitalist" and "Corporate Raiders" comes from the same political bull-sh!t demonization mind-set as "Predatory Lenders" vis-a-vis the banks.

/rant for the day

271 One more thing.

The ones who bitch the most about Venture Capitalists and Leveraged Buyouts are the middle management deadwood and union idiots - you know, the ones who are killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.. The ones who end up losing their jobs.

So, there's that.

272 Perry sounds dumber than Sarah Palin in this interview. But Ace will still support him and tear down all the other Republicans. Fratricide FTW!

273 agree with franksalterego above. ace you sound like an f'n moron

274 Every time I see this man speak, I keep asking myself: When did "stupid a-hole" become a leading ability to become the governor of a major state? Because Rick Perry is about as stupid as anyone I have heard in public circles who claimed to be smart. I can't stomach Obama. The man should be in prison. But if it was a Rick Perry vs. Obama election, I would just stay home...and watch as we are stuck with either the criminal or the retard.

275 But if it was a Rick Perry vs. Obama election, I would just stay home...and watch as we are stuck with either the criminal or the retard. Then look who's stupid. Perry might not have the right crease in his pant leg or talk about Reinhold Neihbur, but he is largely responsible for the TX miracle. An intelligent, objective person could admit that. He put in the work for over a decade and enacted conservative policy that proved a success. You saw the opposite in MA and in IL. There is less than 2% of a primary underway with new rules that demand a drawn out process, yet 23% of the party is ready to coronate a failed politician to the left of the most liberal president this country has ever seen. Romney will lose to Obama, and he will also destroy conservatism.

276

"The attack or the attacker?

Perry does well in friendly interviews."

Ingraham is a Romney supporter. Playing follow the leader with Coulter.