Ace of Spades HQ

March 23, 2012

Random Thoughts About The Shooting of Trayvon Martin
— Ace

Oh, the Media decided We Have To Have a National Discussion about this story.

1. I appreciate the media dubbing Zimmerman "a white Hispanic." Like the Israelis, he's now an honorary member of the Oppressive White Majority.

2. Certain local stories of race-on-race crime ignite the media's passions. Others do not.

3. Most of the time, stories like the one I just linked are not reported by the media, for various reasons. One is that, alas, black on white crime is so common as to be not newsworthy, whereas the reverse is rare and hence, oddly, makes national news.

Another reason is that such stories are, by their nature, inflammatory (no pun intended, of course).

But the media does not mind inflammatory stories when the right people are inflamed. Farrakhan, for example, states that "soon and very soon" the "law of retaliation" "may be applied."

Now, if that story about the black kids setting the white kid on fire -- while declaring "You're white, this is what you deserve" -- was excessively inflammatory, why the media rush to inflame further black on white violence?

4. The cops acted predictably and understandably in not arresting Zimmerman. Here are the facts, as they knew them at the time: Zimmerman was a law-abiding citizen who gave them lots of (correct) tips about local crime. He was helpful to the police (probably also annoying in being too vigilant -- but while such people may annoy the police, they nevertheless appreciate the help that comes with the annoyance).

He called in to 911 to report a "suspicious" character, then followed him, waiting for police to arrive. Eventually there was some violence (Zimmerman was reportedly bloodied) and he claimed self-defense.

Now, under those circumstances, the police are not going to be very suspicious of Zimmerman. If he was attempting a murder, he went about it in a strange way -- calling police to arrive at the scene of the crime before there was a crime. He had no known motive against this Trayvon Martin fellow -- they'd never met.

Why suspect a deliberate murder?

That doesn't make Zimmerman innocent -- but it does explain why the police thought he was likely innocent of wrongdoing.

5. If the facts are as the media reports them, then it does seem like Zimmerman was following around a kid who wasn't doing anything illegal at all. Then again, if the facts were as the media reported them, the Duke Lacrosse Team was guilty of violent gang-rape.

While the liberal media screams, once again, "Trust us, and forget all about our hitting the Panic Button time and time again before!," some of us would like to see what the facts really are before coming to a conclusion.

6. As a general matter, and inescapably, the law of self-defense is a very thorny thicket. The media would like to simplify the law and simply declare that anyone who shoots anyone else is guilty of murder (because they would like to ban all guns, period, and this is a cutesy manner of achieving that goal through the back-door).

But these laws are inescapably thorny and these cases are inescapably very dependent on actual facts.

At the heart of every self-defense case are a pair of related questions: Did the defendant reasonably believe his safety was in jeopardy when he struck the fatal blow? And, based on the circumstances, did the defendant act lawfully, within the accepted safe-harbors for the use of lethal force in defending one's life (or another's life)?

Facts, not ginned up racial outrage or general anti-gun animus, answer these questions.

Given what we think we know (and remember, the media has lied before): it appears that the kid was unarmed, the guy can't rely on self-defense to save his life.

Further, it appears (again, appears) that Zimmerman initiated the contact/confrontation, not the kid, so the "stand your ground" law is not even relevant in the case.

But that's how it appears, at the moment, and for a whole year the media was pretty sure that drug-addled, mentally-imbalanced nightcrawler Crystal Gayle Mangum was a pretty solid citizen and dependable witness.

We'll see how this plays.

Various inarticulate, charity-hire racists don't need a sober assessment of the facts, because their conclusions are animated by racism -- the party of the Disfavored Race is always guilty. (Even when the member of the Disfavored Race is only an honorary member of that Disfavored Race.)

Although America has brought shame to some racists, others flaunt their racism proudly.

We'll have to do something about that. What is this, the 50s?

7. The media is a full-court press to politicize this, noting that the entire Republican field has remained "silent" on this case.

Two problems: First, Obama himself remained "silent" until yesterday, when he declared if he had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin. (And not, for example, like the guys who set fire to the white boy.)

This happened a month ago. Obama waited a month to comment, and as late as Monday refused comment, calling it a "local" matter.

So why suddenly is everyone expected to hop-to now that Hamlet has decided it's a good issue to exploit?

Second problem: Obama is not the first candidate to address this matter. Newt Gingrich was.

So is Obama racist for failing to match Gingrich's alacrity?

8. Fantasy is a very popular genre of fiction. Fantasy is often used to explore real-world problems, but in fantasy trappings. Why is this attractive? Perhaps because the real-world problems, with real-world details, are so unattractive that many people can only be induced to engage with the subject matter if it has a certain amount of distancing from real-world details. If it's fuzzed up by fantasy. Spoonfull of sugar and all that.

The actual real-world facts is that blacks commit crimes at greatly higher rates than whites, and that blacks specifically victimize whites at far higher rates than whites victimize blacks.

And yet the media doesn't ever wish to discuss that -- it's too real, it hurts too much. It offends people.

So instead we only talk about racial issues through this fantasy lens-- the fantasy lens in which white on black crime is common and some sort of national epidemic which must be addressed immediately.

In this case, if Zimmerman was too vigilant and too paranoid, it could just be because he overreacted, lethally, to the very real problem of high black crime rates.

And while we blame him, what about the actual black criminals -- not Trayvon Martin, mind you, who appears blameless, but the actual black criminals who'd been operating in Zimmerman's neighborhood and so brought this tragedy to pass?

Shall we say nothing of them?

Probably not. Because we don't have enough layers of fantasy to make that particular problem palatable and safe for polite discussion.

The Calls: These are the 911 calls during/after the incident, not from Zimmerman, but from others.

Apparently Zimmerman was calling for help as Trayvon was beating him up.

Not dispositive, but suggestive that Zimmerman's claim -- I was in fear for my life -- is credible.

Not sure what the law would say in a case where a guy thinks he's tracking a criminal, gets into a fight with said suspected criminal, loses fight with said suspected criminal, and then shoots him.

"He's Coming Towards Me:" I'd been assuming that Zimmerman approached Martin, rather than vice versa.

But this suggests (but doesn't prove) that Martin approached Zimmerman before the deadly incident.

I don't know if this is just before the incident, though. Perhaps this approach ended, and then Zimmerman started tracking him again.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK... Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

If that's right before the incident, it does suggest that Zimmerman did not initiate contact or violence.

Some will say "But Martin has the right to walk around the neighborhood!" Yes, he does. But Zimmerman also has the right to walk around his neighborhood, and keep tabs on strangers.

That would make him a busy-body and a Nosey Parker, but he too has that right.

To me the question comes down to who started the fight. If Zimmerman started it, then he can't plug a guy just because he started a fight and then got his ass kicked.

But if Martin started it, then Zimmerman can take refuge in the Stand Your Ground law.

Not sure if that's the actual law. Just seems like that's likely the law-- stand your ground would apply when you're attacked, not when you yourself attack.

Update: "He's Running." Takser points out that this 911 call has Zimmerman reporting "He's running" and "He ran."

But Zimmerman doesn't follow him at that point -- he's not breathing hard. He doesn't seem to be running himself.

If Zimmerman chased him I could understand why Martin might be alarmed. But Zimmerman doesn't pursue him. So I don't know what this says about the actual moment of contact between them.

The Law... Thanks to tmtsss.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.Â—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who
1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless
a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is
in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the
use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the
assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the
assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires
to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues
or resumes the use of force.History.Â—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

So there's the law.

The issues: Would "following" count as "provoking"? I don't think so. I think that's talking about the guy who immediately, directly begins the fight.

If that is Zimmerman, he can't find safe harbor here... except for the next "unless," which declares he still might if he reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

I'm not sure a beating, without more, would qualify as that. Seems to me it has to be more serious. A beating doesn't typically result in death or great bodily harm. Could. But usually doesn't.

So it seems that my first thought -- depends on who actually started the fight -- is the important one.

Posted by: Ace at 10:19 AM | Comments (945)
Post contains 1977 words, total size 13 kb.

1 Damn, I just blew my nut in the last thread.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:20 AM (jUytm)

2 No reason to jump all the way to deliberate homicide, Ace. The police have middle ground to explore, namely manslaughter (no premeditation).

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:22 AM (jUytm)

3 You know, you don't look anything like my son, yannow, if I actually *cough* yannow had a son.

Which I don't. I swear.

*cough

Posted by: Prez. Killah B! at March 23, 2012 10:23 AM (gCa4h)

4 RAAAACIST!!!!! STORMFRONT!!!!

Posted by: Fainting Liberal Who Prefers To Avoid Hard Questions at March 23, 2012 10:23 AM (wQ1iq)

5 The police have middle ground to explore, namely manslaughter (no premeditation).

I dunno, when the 911 dispatcher tells you help is on the way and to back off...and you don't....it sounds a lot like pre-meditation to me.

Pre-meditation doesn't mean days or weeks...it can mean minutes.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:25 AM (sbV1u)

6 I will say no more------I will say no more------I will say no more

sine die

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:25 AM (Dll6b)

7 In this case, if Zimmerman was too vigilant and too paranoid, it could just be because he overreacted, lethally, to the very real problem of high black crime rates. Plausible. But you put it too lightly. An overreaction that results in a dead body still deserves proper recourse.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:25 AM (jUytm)

8 Did the white Hispanic shoot a white black, a brown black or a black black? We need to get this straight.

Posted by: Roy at March 23, 2012 10:25 AM (VndSC)

ACE: THANK YOU!!!

Posted by: Barney Frank at March 23, 2012 10:26 AM (F5Rm1)

10 But that young man could be Obama's son (if he had one)!

Posted by: media shills at March 23, 2012 10:26 AM (8g9qq)

11 Remind me how this isn't a land mine for Barry's reelection campaign? He is counting on large Latino turn out. I don't think that is going to happen as long as Al Sharpton and the NAACP are stirring up a lynch mob against a Latino that killed in self defense.

Aren't the Democrats poised for an intra-party race war here?

Posted by: Gulfkraken at March 23, 2012 10:26 AM (WBfjO)

12 Call the police dept in Sanford, Fla, or STFU

( I lied when I said I'd say no more )

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:26 AM (Dll6b)

13 He was helpful to the police (probably also annoying in being too vigilant -- but while such people may annoy the police, they nevertheless appreciate the help that comes with the annoyance).

You're welcome!

Posted by: Dwight Schrute at March 23, 2012 10:27 AM (ykSKg)

14 This is another of those threads where I type out four comments and delete them all. I guess I'll wait for things to play out.

Posted by: toby928© at March 23, 2012 10:27 AM (GTbGH)

15 White Hispanic? Is that anything like a Black Russian?

Posted by: the Butcher at March 23, 2012 10:27 AM (8g9qq)

16 o man..

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:28 AM (TomZ9)

17 What does that even mean-"If I had a son he'd look like Trayvon?" and how the heck does that have any bearing on this situation? I wish Obama would shut his mouth.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 23, 2012 10:28 AM (ceyqu)

18 >>>Pre-meditation doesn't mean days or weeks...it can mean minutes. Pre-meditation would mean he'd decided to kill the kid. I rather doubt that, given that Zimmerman was bloodied. What he probably did was attempt to effect a citizens' arrest, and was fought off, and then decided, quite wrongly, that he was the victim in this exchange of blows and could use his gun. now this is hazy because some juridictions say that pre-meditation can occur in the 'twinking of an eye" so... That's more like a bar-brawl shooting where you'd get him for manslaughter.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:28 AM (nj1bB)

19 "If I had a son."

Like Michelle would allow that.

Posted by: mesablue at March 23, 2012 10:28 AM (+31WT)

20 So the white Hispanic shooter is being investigated by our white black president for shooting a black black pedestrian.

Got it.

Or is our president a black white?

Posted by: Dang at March 23, 2012 10:28 AM (BbX1b)

21 Side fact: Historically, Hispanics have been listed as 'white' in the U.S. Only recently as the group has desired victim status have they begun to attempt to break themselves out into their very only group.

Posted by: dogfish at March 23, 2012 10:29 AM (N2yhW)

22 I'm going to walk away from this one. I've already said too much and probably too soon.

Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 10:29 AM (RD7QR)

23 I'll tell you why Zimmerman shot this prowler (or at least what the MBM will be telling you).

He was a gung-ho wannabe cop who had delusions of grandeur. He loved to strut around with his pistol and pretend that he was big and tough. When the opportunity to use it presented itself he cold-bloodedly murdered this poor honor student and budding artist/athlete/musician/church-goer.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 10:29 AM (nEUpB)

24 White Hispanic? Is that anything like a Black Russian?

Yes, you just add a jigger of coconut milk and a spritz of lime to the standard Black Russian.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:29 AM (sbV1u)

25 Here's a link to the police department's files on this case. http://tinyurl.com/6o5lnrw

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:29 AM (jUytm)

>>>Or is our president a black white?

No - he's an asshole.

Posted by: Roy at March 23, 2012 10:29 AM (VndSC)

27 Google Shawn Taylor. This is the 17 yo black Florida teenager who shot to death two white unarmed British tourists. Supposedly to rob them - but their wallets were still on them.

Not a peep from anyone.

Gee, Mr President. If you had a son, he could look just like Shawn.

Couldn't he.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (y0VOX)

28 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (8y9MW)

29 Was Trayvon an honor student with dreams of becoming a doctor ?? Not much information about him.....hmmmm

Posted by: seamrog at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (JKSUw)

30
We need a Hoodie Summit.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (QMtmy)

Pre-meditation doesn't mean days or weeks...it can mean minutes.

Premeditation also means that he went into the situation having already decided that he was going to kill him. Good luck proving that.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (JxMoP)

32 This sums up my thoughts on it, so thanks Ace. When the pic of Herr Zimmerman von Krautenhopfen went up on Drudge I must admit I lol'ed a little. Quite the poster child for the Master Race, he is.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (3W9Zk)

33 ace, a citizen arrest for what exactly, walking through the development?
was there any evidence or police call that inimated Trayvon was committing a crime?

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:30 AM (TomZ9)

34 Well put Ace. To me: 1. Race and NOTHING to do with this story. It's just a routine fetish for the MFM. 2. The MFM has, again, with their constant "RAAACIST!", "GUN CONTROL!" propaganda, turned what should have been a reasonable discussion/ debate into utter nonsense.

Posted by: Damiano at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (A2+pr)

35 Zimmerman is brown on the right side, where Martin is clearly brown on the left side.

Posted by: toby928© at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (GTbGH)

36
>>>Aren't the Democrats poised for an intra-party race war here?

Hence the re-inventing of Zimmerman as a German-Scandi. And why you never see his picture.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (0q2P7)

37 If Mitt Romney had a son, he would look like George Zimmerman.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (Fz7+s)

38 I dunno, when the 911 dispatcher tells you help is on the way and to back off...and you don't....it sounds a lot like pre-meditation to me.

Reading the link sooth so helpfully provided: he wasn't told to back off. The 911 operator asked Zimmerman if he was following Trayvon. Z said "yes," the operator said "You don't have to do that."

That is not the same as "Stop. Let the officers handle it."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (8y9MW)

39 What he probably did was attempt to effect a citizens' arrest, and was fought off, and then decided, quite wrongly, that he was the victim in this exchange of blows and could use his gun. This is exactly what I think transpired, which puts all the blame on Zimmerman.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (jUytm)

40 Fantastic post, Ace.

Posted by: Room Temp at March 23, 2012 10:31 AM (gh6F5)

41 Yes, thanks very much Ace. Well articulated.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 23, 2012 10:32 AM (ceyqu)

42 citizens arrest for what?

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:33 AM (TomZ9)

43 I have to say, looking at Zimmerman's pic on Drudge....I'm sure the race-baiters and haters, and violence-stoking rhetoric from the left don't want this guy's picture, and his father's admission of his Hispanic heritage to get out. It doesn't fit their meme, at all. Likewise, if they carry this too far, it will likely inflame Hispanic relations with the Dems, who will push this for all it's worth politically. You just know they are kicking themselves that this guy doesn't look white enough.

And what pisses me off beyond words is the complete, total blackout of the white kid who was set on fucking FIRE while black kids expressly called him out for being white and he "got what he deserved." Fucking Sharpton: silent. Fucking Obama: silent. Fucking Farrakan: silent. Fucking media: silent. The fucking entire left: silent.

Posted by: Lady in Black.....{sigh} at March 23, 2012 10:33 AM (F+Xfj)

44 From 1990 to 2010, 13,113 people were murdered in Chicago.

Just last weekend, 49 people were shot - 10 of them fatally - including a 6 yo girl.

I wonder what her crime was - or if the shooter was an angry white male?

Obviously not, because no one gives a fuck.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 10:33 AM (y0VOX)

The congress will need to act if Obamacare isnÂ’t declared unconstitutional next week.

(hijacking in progressÂ… help!)

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 10:33 AM (FdndL)

46 Black kids get shot everyday. You rarely ever hear about it though as the gunman is almost always another black kid.

Posted by: mugiwara at March 23, 2012 10:33 AM (DzbFD)

47 >>>Google Shawn Taylor. This is the 17 yo black Florida teenager who shot to death two white unarmed British tourists. Supposedly to rob them - but their wallets were still on them.

Hey, he sure looks a lot like me

Posted by: Barack Obama III at March 23, 2012 10:34 AM (gCa4h)

48 Wow. Realtalk from Ace. As refreshing as it is unexpected.

Posted by: Hinks at March 23, 2012 10:34 AM (cEdZt)

49 I guess white hispanics just don't cut it on the Most Favored Minority list, huh? Do they imagine that Mayan Hispanics somehow like blacks anymore than whites or Asians do? (How come we don't call hispanics and Asians browns and yellows, by the way? Just wondering... )

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 10:34 AM (niZvt)

50 yeah, if you want to find out about Shawn Taylor killing those two Brits recently, you gotta go to the Daily Mail, Telegraph, etc

watch out for those full-page titty pics on Page Three of The Sun, and all the "She looks fabulous" celeb bikini pics in the Mail

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:34 AM (Dll6b)

51 I'm burned out on this story also. I just think that for Obama to personally inject himself in this by saying the" If I had a Son thing" it became obvious that he has made this a Racial issue.Seems he and Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakhan think they can make some political hay out of this.Let's just wait and see what the facts really are...

Posted by: the hobbit fomerly known as Donna at March 23, 2012 10:34 AM (ZHge+)

52 Premeditation also means that he went into the situation having already decided that he was going to kill him. Good luck proving that.

Exactly.

But when you start acting like a cop and you don't have the training that goes with it - shit happens. I'm sure all of us can think of someone we know who's a little too much Paul Blart-Mall Cop.

I don't know what happened, but again, when the cops tell you to back off and you don't, you get to pay the piper. I am pretty sure Zimmerman will draw a manslaughter conviction at least.

Then again, I was pretty sure Obama would be a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Wait...I was right about that. Never mind.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (sbV1u)

53 Yeah, but can't we talk about Obamacare?

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (4I3Uo)

54 >>>That's more like a bar-brawl shooting where you'd get him for manslaughter.

Deliberate use of deadly force usually is prima facie for intent to kill putting murder 2 on the menu if malice is involved. I think a lot of those bar brawls get downgrayedd because of plea bargaining. I don't think a plea bargain is going to happen on this one.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (0q2P7)

55 The white kid set on fire clearly didn't look like Obama's son.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (ceyqu)

56 49 If I had a son, he would look like Jabba the Hut. Posted by: Jessica Simpson-Struthers at March 23, 2012 02:34 PM (vbh31) Except much thinner. Because you'd eat all his food, you fat sow.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (niZvt)

Not a speck of misogyny.

Posted by: garrett at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (NOwGM)

58 Can you do a citizen's arrest in FL?

I think the fault lies entirely on Zimmerman. He was told specifically to back off and wait for the police to show up. He decided to pursue when he had no probable cause to do so, or see anything life threatening.

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (GQ8sn)

59 >>>ace, a citizen arrest for what exactly, walking through the development? right, it would be an erroneous citizens's arrest, and unlawful one, ASSUMING THE FACTS ARE AS THE MEDIA REPORTS THEM. Keep that big caveat in mind. No, you can't arrest someone for something vague like a "sketchy feeling." You can only arrest someone for a crime in progress. I don't know the exact rule but the rules for the use of lethal force in such a case are generally even more restrictive -- like immediate threat to someone's life.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:35 AM (nj1bB)

60 Here's a picture of Zimmerman.

Wonder why the MBM isn't showing pics of him?

http://tinyurl.com/6lqd3ne

Ace, could you add this picture to the thread?

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (Y+DPZ)

61 "Was Trayvon an honor student with dreams of becoming a doctor ?? Not much information about him.....hmmmm"

Excellent point. I am curious as to how big these two men are. As I understand it, witnesses say they saw Trayvon on top of George beating him before he was shot. All of the press photos show Trayvon is a football player. So I am curious if Trayvon liked to play football, or if he was a 6'4 255lb division I middle linebacker recruit. Conversely, what does George look like? If this all started as a physical confrontation, it seems very relevant.

Posted by: Gulfkraken at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (WBfjO)

62 OK, so Zimmerman is a Person of Flesh Color. So WHAT???

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (niZvt)

63 Wow. This is the most deliberately racist shit I've seen on this page in a long time. I let you guys get away with small time ignorant white guy racism. Chalk that up to stupidity. But deliberate? Should be ashamed.

Posted by: Palooka at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (N2Sw/)

64 I don't know the facts of this case, and I doubt obama does either. So I wish someone would ask him why his thought it his responsibility to put his 2 cents into this case and not any of the others where kids were killed? Inquiring minds want to know, even if they really already know. Hell we got a professional race baiter with a show on MSNBC, why not one in the White House also

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (eCnLg)

65 Aren't the Democrats poised for an intra-party race war here?

Live by the race hustle, die by the race hustle...

Posted by: Alex at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (tlK1P)

66 ♫
If I had a boy
He'd look just like Trayvon ...
♪

Posted by: Baroncé at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (w/anX)

67 That is not the same as "Stop. Let the officers handle it."

No it's not.

Then again, playing cop in a potentially lethal situation when you're not a cop is pretty much common sense.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (sbV1u)

68 Volunteer Sgt. Sugarcookie might have been jumpy from that close call with the stray cat in the clubhouse garbage can.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 10:36 AM (+lsX1)

69 I'm going to cut straight to the chase. This case will get solved. Start here-these are the 911 tapes- http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/teen-shooting-911-calls-4-to-6/vGZrB/ At about the 5 minute 30 second mark there is an actual witness. Kind of in shock but... Also in tapes 1-3 you can actually here someone in the background repeatedly yelling for help. Another witness says he "heard wrestling'. There is going to be evidence. Either Zimmerman is going to have beat marks or the kid is.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:37 AM (r2PLg)

70
Ace:

ABC News Radio said all four Republican candidates have commented on it, calling it a tragedy.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 10:37 AM (7+pP9)

71 If Zimmerman is white, then so is Obama?

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 10:37 AM (GQ8sn)

72 I'll bet 100 other race-on-race killings happened yesterday. But this one we pay attention to.

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 10:37 AM (MMC8r)

73 Florida has a 'stand your ground' law, which allows you to use deadly force if you credibly believe that you are in immediate danger of being seriously harmed ( or killed ).

You do not need to look for escape or try to escape before using dealy force

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:38 AM (Dll6b)

a citizen arrest for what exactly, walking through the development?

Was it a gated community? That was what I had read a few days ago...

How does that effect tresspass laws in Florida?

Posted by: garrett at March 23, 2012 10:38 AM (NOwGM)

75 Maybe the little shithead was trying to take zimmerman's gun.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 10:38 AM (y0VOX)

76 Rinse - repeat - rinse

When this case first broke I said then it had the smell of Duke all over it. I said we needed to give it at least a week for the actual facts to come out. It appears that some facts are leaking out now despite the MFM trying to hush it up.

Any time the MFM and Al Shitptom get on their high horse you can almost guarantee a POS set of lies.

What we know:

The MFM shows pictures of the "kid" when he was about 10 y.o. Why is it they always portray the "victim" as an innocent choir boy? We now know
he was a 17 y.o gang banger who had been kicked out of school because he was violent. He also had a rap sheet for violent crimes and burglary. And yes that is relevant.

The accused racist Hispanic was a neighborhood watch. It was his job to follow him. It doesn't matter if he was a wanna-be cop. It was his job to follow this kid and keep and eye on him.

For all appearances sake the "kid" was casing the homes for burglary.

The kid was beating him when the evil racist shot him. Yes, that meets the definition of self-defense without even invoking the FL stand your ground law. There are eye witness reports that confirm this.

Lets not get all Duke on this.

Some other relevant things. Since 2009 Hate Crimes amendment the DOJ can charge him with hate crimes based soley on the opinion of Eric F-F Holder.

FL allows self-defense with deadly force based on fear.

The police have not charged Zimmerman based on eye witness accounts. They do not base charges on the liberal meanderings of the MFM.

Posted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (YdQQY)

Ace, this is one of your bravest and best! You're doing Breitbart proud. Bravo.

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (JfvbF)

78 What he probably did was attempt to effect a citizens' arrest, and was fought off, and then decided, quite wrongly, that he was the victim in this exchange of blows and could use his gun.

Or Z was following M, M noticed and waited for Z around a corner, intercepted him and demanded to know why he was being followed. Z demanded to know what M was up to. M said None of your business fat ass. Z says WTF punk, bowing followed by shoving, and the ass whipping by M begins. M is 17 yes? At 17 I already had a bit of a history of violence and would not have taken shit off an old man so I can see it happening.

Or something like that.

Posted by: toby928© at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (GTbGH)

79 or deaDly force, either

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (Dll6b)

80 White Hispanic? Does that make Obama a White African American?

Posted by: Caunotaucarius at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (SHvfC)

81 I double dog dare ya, Farrakhan.

Posted by: dogfish at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (N2yhW)

82 Let's not forget that there is an undeclared war between blacks and Mexicans--at least here in CA. If the MSM had called Zimmerman an un-prefixed Hispanic--of Mexican heritage--it would not only not fit the white-black oppressor-victim narrative, but they (the MSM) would have to discuss a number of topics that they definitely do not want to address: the undeclared war and, possibly, immigration of the illegal variety. (Not saying that Zimmerman is an illegal or even an immigrant, but an honest discussion of this mess would eventually lead to the subject.)

Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (T2/zQ)

83 Zimmerman? Is that the shooters name? He is the most valuable of men. See if you want him to be the oppressor he is white, If you want him to be the victim he is hispanic. He is almost as versatile as the that jew-spic-white Geraldo?

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (eCnLg)

84 If George Zimmerman had a son, he would look like the hundreds of innocent Mexicans killed in the last couple of years with federal weapons. Your turn, Bambi.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (Fz7+s)

85 Premeditation also means that he went into the situation having already
decided that he was going to kill him. Good luck proving that.

Exactly.

>>>I am pretty sure Zimmerman will draw a manslaughter conviction at least.

The evidence needs to all come out. Based on some parts of the 911 call, murder 2 is not out of the question. I think murder 1 is not sustainable though.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (0q2P7)

86 Here is the tape of calls 1 through 3. http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/teen-shooting-911-calls-1-3/vGZnj/ Warning-it's fairly heartbreaking, you can hear someone begging for help-whoever that person was... I think that gets identified- it will either match Zimmerman's voice or it won't.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (r2PLg)

87 I don't know what happened, but again, when the cops tell you to back off and you don't, you get to pay the piper. I am pretty sure Zimmerman will draw a manslaughter conviction at least.

Read my comment above. He was never told to back off.

I also don't buy ace's "citizen's arrest" theory. I don't see how Zimmerman starts the physical altercation (which attempting to affect a citizen's arrest most certainly would do) and then ends up on the losing side of the resultant beat-down. As has been pointed out- Trayvon was built like a toothpick.

I find it much more likely that Zimmerman tried to draw close to Martin- perhaps to (gasp) ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood, and Martin (for whatever reason, but I could certainly believe out of fear) decided to get the jump on Zimmerman to end the threat and then escape.

This doesn't require anyone to have broken the law, seems much more plausible (based on the Neighborhood Watch captain bit, and the fact that it seems unlikely Martin could take Zimmerman without getting the first hit in), and fits such facts as we know.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (8y9MW)

Too bad Zimmerman is part Latino, that screws up The Narrative a bit. Any way to label him as a Tea Party member, a conservative law and order fanatic, or a Texan/deep south vigilante gun nut yahoo?

Hey, if it does turn out he acted illegally; maybe he is, by definition, all of the above.

Posted by: RM at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (TRsME)

89 >>>Florida has a 'stand your ground' law, which allows you to use deadly force if you credibly believe that you are in immediate danger of being seriously harmed ( or killed ). Yes but without knowing the law, I'm thinking that must be in situations where the violence comes to you, not where you bring the violence to someone else. For example: There is a type of crime where a guy goes looking for trouble in a bar, picks a fight, gets his ass kicked, then shoots the guy who beat him up. Is that what the "stand your ground" law is meant to legalize? Surely not. You cannot pick a fight with someone then kill him dead just because you lost.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:39 AM (nj1bB)

90
The police have not charged Zimmerman based on eye witness accounts. They do not base charges on the liberal meanderings of the MFM.

They will this time.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 10:40 AM (y0VOX)

91 Seeing how the media has splashed that happy, positive image of St Trevor around, has anyone posted the surveillance camera footage from the convenience store to see how he looked that night? If this is going to get all racial - what was the race of the two eyewitnesses who saw Trevor on top of Zimmerman, beating him? Will one of you FL crackers go by and teach Zimmerman the first level secret handshakes and passwords to the disfavored majority clubhouse.

Posted by: Jean at March 23, 2012 10:40 AM (WkuV6)

92 Incidentally, I really find it hard to believe that a 28 yo 250lb man was beaten by a very tall 140lb teen.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:40 AM (jUytm)

93 They are trying to use this to fire up the AA vote to reelect obama

Posted by: Mr Pink at March 23, 2012 10:40 AM (AdqLR)

94 Does anyone know if both sets of fingerprints were on the gun, or just Zimmerman's?

Posted by: momma at March 23, 2012 10:40 AM (oKsWl)

95 Crackers?

Fuck you.

Big time.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (y0VOX)

96 That is not the same as "Stop. Let the officers handle it."

How much is the dispatcher actually allowed to say? If she tells him to stop, and the kid actually had been intending to do something illegal, then it falls back on the police department. Plus, Zimmerman is a private citizen and certainly free to go where he pleases.

The whole damn thing sucks. However tragic, it is a local matter and not a national crisis.

Posted by: Alex at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (tlK1P)

97 I'm sure some Reuters employee is frantically Photoshopping a yarmulke on Zimmerman's photo.

Posted by: Dang at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (BbX1b)

98 ASSUMING THE FACTS ARE AS THE MEDIA REPORTS THEM.

Keep that big caveat in mind.

No, you can't arrest someone for something vague like a "sketchy feeling." You can only arrest someone for a crime in progress. I don't know the exact rule but the rules for the use of lethal force in such a case are generally even more restrictive -- like immediate threat to someone's life.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 02:35 PM (nj1bB)

this is the other real issue involved, besides the tragedy of the Death of Trayvon itself, is that here we all are trying to figure out what happened (truth) and we have a media that is untrustworthy. (now we are all aware of that fact but this is how dangerous it can be to america) , a president, al sharpton, all exploiting this tragedy for ???? what exactly???

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (TomZ9)

99 osted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 02:39 PM (YdQQY)

Wow I haven't heard any of that. I wonder why?

Posted by: the hobbit fomerly known as Donna at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (ZHge+)

100 In addition, while we don't know the facts, it is claimed that Martin was unarmed; so how would Zimmerman have a reasonable belief his life was in danger? I suppose Martin might have grabbed for the gun, and a struggle may have ensued; in which case, I guess he could believe his life was in danger. But again he brought violence to Martin, not vice versa. (Assuming the facts are as reported, which I do not in fact assume -- I've been lied to too many times before.)

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (nj1bB)

101 Now, if that story about the black kids setting the white kid on fire -- while declaring "You're white, this is what you deserve" -- was excessively inflammatory, why the media rush to inflame further black on white violence? [/]

Because the elitist enlightened lefties in their cocooned tony neighborhoods honestly believe that the unwashed masses in flyover country are just itching to lynch blacks en masse

Yet they somehow don't worry about rioting by blacks

Unless it gets uncomfortably close to THEIR neighborhoods like the Rodney King riots did

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (Y+DPZ)

102

Dispatchers will always tell you to let officers handle it. It doesn't matter if it's someone driving away with your kid in the trunk.

And it's not a lawful order.

That's not saying it wasn't dumb for Zimmerman to chase after him. But let's not pretend the officers were going to get there and slap the cuffs on Trayvon (if he did something illegal to begin with) and go get some lunch. If Trayvon had done something, he would have gotten away.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (/Mla1)

103 IMHO- half of our problems as a society would instantly vanish if the MFM were to report, at the very least, equally about Black/ Hispanic/ Other- on- White racism/ violence. Simpler solution: let's go back to personal accountability, please. I don't care what demographic you belong to. If you do something illegal, justice should apply uniformly (including celebrities who constantly get off on stuff and get released from prison in 24 hours). No more "programs" for "disadvantaged" people/ communities. If your community is a shithole, it's your problem. Fix it yourself or move.

Posted by: Damiano at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (A2+pr)

104 I've seen a large, hig-def close-up photo of Zimmerman ( courtesy of ABC News )

He looks Mayan; Central American Indian; not White; not even kinda sorta

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:41 AM (Dll6b)

105 What he probably did was attempt to effect a citizens' arrest, and was fought off, and then decided, quite wrongly, that he was the victim in this exchange of blows and could use his gun.
now this is hazy because some juridictions say that pre-meditation can occur in the 'twinking of an eye" so...
That's more like a bar-brawl shooting where you'd get him for manslaughter.
Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 02:28 PM (nj1bB)

This is what I suspect really happened as well. So I think at best prosecutors might be able to charge and convict him with manslaughter. But it's murky and there may not be enough evidence to get this.

But I'm pretty sure that Zimmerman will lose a civil suit

Posted by: Mætenloch at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (+B3Nr)

106 I asked earlier, but any one know what happened to the two girls that beat the white girl (because she was white) in a McDonlds?

Posted by: momma at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (oKsWl)

107 dang, i was actually surpised it didn't come out like that with zimmerman.

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (TomZ9)

108 If this is going to get all racial - what was the race of the two eyewitnesses who saw Trevor on top of Zimmerman, beating him?

Well if this is going to get all racial then his parents need a beat-down for naming him "Trayvon"

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (sbV1u)

109

"So why suddenly is everyone expected to hop-to now that Hamlet has decided it's a good issue to exploit?"

It saves so much time when Ace asks a question and answers it in one sentence, doesn't it?

Posted by: sherlock at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (7UMow)

110 edit: Also in tapes 1-3 you can actually *hear* someone in the background repeatedly yelling for help.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (r2PLg)

111 >>>'m not to sure about that one, Ace. People are arrested all the time while not actively committing a crime. I'm sure. I'm talking about a citizen's arrest, you know. Of course cops arrest people with warrants.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (nj1bB)

112

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 10:42 AM (Y+DPZ)

113 The kid was beating him when the evil racist shot him. Yes, that meets the definition of self-defense without even invoking the FL stand your ground law. There are eye witness reports that confirm this.

Getting your ass kicked doesn't automatically make you an innocent victim. There are no witnesses that saw the start of the fight.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 10:43 AM (+lsX1)

114 and yes, a citizen's arrest is real. It's not made up. there's a whole corpus of law about it. but you can't just "citizen's arrest" someone because he "looks suspicious."

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:43 AM (nj1bB)

115 Either Zimmerman is going to have beat marks or the kid is.

Zimmerman does (did, I suppose). They've been documented by the police.

Blood on the back of his head.
Either a bloody or broken nose (don't remember and don't have that specific link in front of me)
Wet clothes (indicating he was on the ground) with a grass stain on the back (indicating he was on the bottom).

Posted by: toby928Â© at March 23, 2012 02:39 PM (GTbGH)

Also a logical conclusion from the evidence at hand.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 10:43 AM (8y9MW)

116 The whole damn thing sucks. However tragic, it is a local matter and not a national crisis.

^^^^THIS

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:43 AM (sbV1u)

117 Too bad Zimmerman wasn't a jew-Farrakhan and Sharpton are very comfortable about calling for pogroms against jews. Anyone who jumps on the bandwagon (a la Rich Lowry's Sharpton is right) gets to bear the consequences for the race riot that Sharpton and his ilk are gearing up to create.

Posted by: ejo at March 23, 2012 10:44 AM (0aHI9)

118 RASSISTS!

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:44 AM (QTVh2)

119

Â“I have a different take, Brian, on that,Â” Geraldo Rivera said. Â“I believe that George Zimmerman, the overzealous neighborhood watch captain should be investigated to the fullest extent of the law and if he is criminally liable, he should be prosecuted. But I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters particularly to not let their children go out wearing hoodies. I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon MartinÂ’s death as George Zimmerman was.Â”

Well, this line of analysis has the advantage of being novel.
Before long we will have complaints of Â“hoodie profilingÂ” to add to the usual dreck.

Posted by: Geraldo Rivera at March 23, 2012 10:44 AM (e8kgV)

120 Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ... Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black. Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing? Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring... Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area... Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses. Dispatcher: OK... Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me. Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now? Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me. Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male. Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks? Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens. Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:44 AM (jUytm)

121 I don't care what demographic you belong to. me either guy beat on other guy. other guy shot first guy. someone did wrong. cops'll figure out kids are killing each other, and innocents caught in the middle, DAILY in Philly this year.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at March 23, 2012 10:44 AM (SB0V2)

122

77, ....The MFM shows pictures of the "kid" when he was about 10 y.o. Why is it they always portray the "victim" as an innocent choir boy? We now know
he was a 17 y.o gang banger who had been kicked out of school because he was violent. He also had a rap sheet for violent crimes and burglary. And yes that is relevant.

Thanks, Vic.....this is the first I have heard of the kid having a record, or being a little gang banger. ....The MFM is portraying him as an innocent little angel.

If Trayvon has a history of violence....then that can lend credence to Zimmerman's account of being attacked by him.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (4GgJq)

123 the kid himself could also have been afraid and' standing his ground'
this is what i believe is the tragedy of it all.

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (TomZ9)

124 The MFM shows pictures of the "kid" when he was about 10 y.o. Why is it they always portray the "victim" as an innocent choir boy? We now know
he was a 17 y.o gang banger who had been kicked out of school because he was violent. He also had a rap sheet for violent crimes and burglary. And yes that is relevant.

Vic, this is first I've heard anything about a TM rap sheet - do you have a link?

Posted by: Mætenloch at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (+B3Nr)

125 Dispatchers will always tell you to let officers handle it. It doesn't matter if it's someone driving away with your kid in the trunk. And it's not a lawful order.
Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 02:41 PM

When seconds count, the police are there in minutes

If they show up at all

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (Y+DPZ)

126 I'm a cracker so this is just between the hymies, spics and nigs.

Posted by: President Chet Roosevelt at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (WU3T3)

127 85 If George Zimmerman had a son, he would look like the hundreds of innocent Mexicans killed in the last couple of years with federal weapons. Your turn, Bambi.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 02:39 PM (Fz7+s)

+1000

Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (T2/zQ)

128

I heard it reported for the first time today that Zimmerman is claiming he broke of following Obama's son and was on his way back to his SUV when he was attacked by Obama Jr. That might explain the injury to the back of Zimmerman's head.

Like Ace said, wait for ALL the facts on this one cuz they haven't been reported.

Posted by: Room Temp at March 23, 2012 10:45 AM (Y227l)

129 NO JUST US KNOW PIECE!!!1!1!

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (QTVh2)

130 Allen West raced to judgement so why shouldn't we all?

Posted by: Cast Iron at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (EL+OC)

131 118 The whole damn thing sucks. However tragic, it is a local matter and not a national crisis.

^^^^THIS

Exactly...

Posted by: the hobbit fomerly known as Donna at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (ZHge+)

132 If she tells him to stop, and the kid actually had been intending to do something illegal, then it falls back on the police department.

No, because the police were already on their way.

"When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away," after all.

And, yes, I've heard dispatchers (at least here in TX) actively tell callers not to pursue bad guys.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (8y9MW)

133

Shawn Tyson,

never heard of him

Posted by: Miami Herald editor at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (bPbwB)

134 The MFM shows pictures of the "kid" when he was about 10 y.o. Why is it they always portray the "victim" as an innocent choir boy? We now knowhe was a 17 y.o gang banger who had been kicked out of school because he was violent. He also had a rap sheet for violent crimes and burglary. And yes that is relevant.

hmm i had not read that before.

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (TomZ9)

135 ZIMMERMAN: He's a (bleep). They always get away. (911 Dispatcher) Are you following him? ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. (911 Dispatcher) OK, we don't need you to do that. ZIMMERMAN: OK.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:46 AM (jUytm)

136 link?

Posted by: willow at March 23, 2012 10:47 AM (TomZ9)

137 As I said in the other thread: The crux of this whole affair turns on who/what caused/initiated the altercation.

Posted by: Jimmuy at March 23, 2012 10:47 AM (BLEio)

138 Zimmerman does (did, I suppose). They've been documented by the police. Blood on the back of his head. Either a bloody or broken nose (don't remember and don't have that specific link in front of me) Wet clothes (indicating he was on the ground) with a grass stain on the back (indicating he was on the bottom). Posted by: toby928Â© at March 23, 2012 02:39 PM (GTbGH) Also a logical conclusion from the evidence at hand. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 02:43 PM (8y9MW) ********* So that's possibly one of the reasons they didn't arrest Zimmerman?

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:47 AM (r2PLg)

139 Â“At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.Â” http://tinyurl.com/88odom7

I have to say, to see that kid's beautiful face up there on drudge it just breaks your heart.

Makes you wonder how many parents, when this story came to light, sat their teenaged kid down, no matter what race, and had a long talk with them about the world today and being aware of the impact your actions might be having on another person. That what might seem regular and normal behavior to you, might not be perceived that way by someone else. And, since you can't read other people's minds, you need to think about everything you do and say nowadays. In other words, be aware of your surroundings at all times and don't go anywhere alone.

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (oZfic)

140 It's pissing me off that the MFM keeps showing a picture of Martin when he about about 10 years old. I don't expect autopsy photos, but it's completely disingenuous to keep showing a smiling, class picture of a 10 year old kid when you're referring to a 6'3" 17 year old football player/ gangbanger that was recently kicked out of school.

Posted by: Damiano at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (A2+pr)

141 >>>I don't see how Zimmerman starts the physical altercation

Well you are right he probably didn't throw the first blow. But since he threatened the kid (Chasing someone running away from you at night could reasonably perceived as a threat) he might as well have started it.

The issue here is he isn't a cop, and regardless of his intent to enforce the law, the lack of that magic uniform which makes being chased by him go from resisting arrest, to attempting to escape a threatening individual, is what is going to sink his boat. He can't defend his use of deadly force, because he started the confrontation by acting in a threatening manner.

At this point it becomes an argument of intent, which, distinguishes what level of wrong he has committed.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (0q2P7)

142 So the pics the MFM media have been showing of the black kid are pics of him when he was 12 years old...he was 6'3" now? Is that true? If so, dayum. No agenda there, huh?

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (JfvbF)

143 >>>Vic, this is first I've heard anything about a TM rap sheet - do you have a link? this is why I withhold judgment. The media simply lies. Taking the media at their word, this looks like a wrongful killing and and overzealous wannabe cop. But why should I take them at their word? They LIE CONSTANTLY.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (nj1bB)

144 Believe me, Citizen's arrests are a bitch.

Posted by: Gomer Pyle at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (MMC8r)

145 The insane chickens who made "hate" crime felonies as if making anyone "feel good" have come home to roost.

As if there aren't enough federal irons in the fire, but that every/any murder involving a hyphenated-American needs federal prosecution because the locals are always yokels.

By no means are African-Americans the only US citizens descended from an abused people dispossessed of their homeland. Native American tribes were exterminated, having "failed" to prove their worth initially as slaves, having "failed" to assimilate "properly". The US Government never issued an extermination order of African-Americans, or forced African-Americans to constantly relocate into reservations, although LBJ did a fine job of replicating such destruction of Black America by maintaining the population within his "Great Society" welfare state of broken homes and single mothers.

AG Eric Holder said in June 2009 that recent killings show the need for a tougher U.S. hate crimes law to stop "violence masquerading as political activism". ["Attorney general urges new hate crimes law -- Crime & Courts -- msnbc.com". MSNBC. 2009-06-16. Retrieved 2011-11-14.]

Holder will argue that only federal hate crimes will stop violence masquerading as self defense.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 10:48 AM (lpWVn)

146 137 ZIMMERMAN: He's a (bleep). They always get away. (911 Dispatcher) Are you following him? ZIMMERMAN: Yeah. (911 Dispatcher) OK, we don't need you to do that. ZIMMERMAN: OK. Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 02:46 PM (jUytm) ***************** I listened to that five times at huffPo -do they bleep it-becasue I can't hear what they tell me I am suppose to hear.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:49 AM (r2PLg)

147 okay, it was SEAN Taylor who murdered two palefaces in Miami recently

not an issue......

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:49 AM (Dll6b)

148 WE WILL MARCH WE MUCH

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:49 AM (QTVh2)

149 Liberals/MSM were losing the #WarOnWomen , they needed a diversion.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at March 23, 2012 10:49 AM (AWmfW)

150 I'm seeing on the Twitters that Zimmerman was bloodied and being beaten by Martin when he got shot. If true, kinda changes the narrative a bit.

Posted by: movigique at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (Cepxj)

151 35 Zimmerman is brown on the right side, where Martin is clearly brown on the left side.
*
That's what we said!

Posted by: Bele and Lokai at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (exvgC)

152 It's pissing me off that the MFM keeps showing a picture of Martin when he about about 10 years old.

Check the pic on Drudge now, top of page.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (sbV1u)

153
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (Dll6b)

154 SHOWING PHOTOS OF TRAYVON FROM THE 21ST CENTURY IS RACIST!!!1!1! ONLY PHOTOS FROM THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION ARE ACCEPTABLE!

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (QTVh2)

155 I'm inclined to think Zimmerman over-reacted, but I agree with you, Ace, that we need the actual facts to come out. The MFM is an untrustworthy source for them, so let's see what leaks from other sources.

Very well articulated post, Ace.Top-notch from several angles.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (eHIJJ)

156 Who gets to be criminally and civilly responsible when the bussed-in protests in FL this weekend get out of hand and stuff gets broke and people start getting dead?

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (4I3Uo)

157 that particular bleep is the word "asshole"

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:50 AM (jUytm)

158 Ace, walk down 9th avenue, see how you feel when a 6'3" black guy in a hoody approaches you.

Yeah, who among us wouldn't call 911 and initiate citizens arrest procedures at the chilling sight of a black guy.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 10:51 AM (+lsX1)

159

I am pretty sure Zimmerman will draw a manslaughter conviction at least.

That may well be depending on what the actual facts are. One option is that Martin had no idea who was following him, got scared, tried to escape, was grabbed by Zimmermann, and acted in his own self-defense during which Zimmermann, also acting in self-defense, shot him. Another option is that Martin didn't try to escape and attacked Zimmermann.

Under the first scenario both people could have been acting in self-defense, but Zimmermann was the one initiated the conflict. I don't know if Florida law would assign him any blame in this instance. Not saying he didn't do anything wrong, just saying I don't know Florida's laws.

In the second scenario I can't see any way in which Zimmermann would be guilty of a crime. If he was merely following the guy and then got attacked, I can't see it. I don't care that the 911 operator told him that he didn't have to follow him as long as he didn't initiate any violence.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 23, 2012 10:51 AM (JxMoP)

160 144 So the pics the MFM media have been showing of the black kid are pics of him when he was 12 years old...he was 6'3" now? Is that true? If so, dayum. No agenda there, huh?

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 02:48 PM (JfvbF)

Fake but Accurate.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at March 23, 2012 10:51 AM (AWmfW)

161 I dunno.... I'm gonna let it play ..... the facts will come out. I think the Duke Lacrosse "rape" was a hard lesson for the bandwaggoneers.

One thing that DOES piss me off is the selective victim hood regarding race and the MFM.

Case in point.

Ya'all heard about the white kid that got doused in gasoline and set on fire by two of his black classmates in Kansas City..... didnt you.???

No???? Neither did I .... and I live here.

Posted by: fixerupper at March 23, 2012 10:51 AM (C8hzL)

162 By no means are African-Americans the only US citizens descended from an abused people dispossessed of their homeland my great-grandparents were (non-religious!) Jews who lived in Italy and had a successful business there for many, many generations. My great grandmother cried every day for years b/c she had to leave her beautiful homeland - to come to some dumpy rowhome in south philadelphia. so . . yeah. sucks but we got here and put the damn past in the past

Posted by: BlackOrchid at March 23, 2012 10:51 AM (SB0V2)

163 >>>And yes that is relevant.

To what exactly? Did he cede his right to travel on foot at some point?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 10:51 AM (0q2P7)

164 So Zimmerman not only killed obama's son, but he must be a Jew and he also sent a telegram to Mexico trying to get them to declare War on the US.

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 10:52 AM (eCnLg)

165

@151 Sean Taylor was murdered in Miami. He was an NFL player.

He is not to be confused with Shawn Tyson of Sarasota who is charged with murdering the two Brits.

Posted by: Miami Herald editor at March 23, 2012 10:52 AM (bPbwB)

166 Mentioning Trayvon at all just plays into the media's hands. Every shooting is unique and there is really nothing any more interesting about this one than all of the others outside of the fact it is politically convenient for one side to make an issue of it now.

The less said about it the better.

Posted by: Voluble at March 23, 2012 10:52 AM (C9bRU)

167 I don't expect autopsy photos, but it's completely disingenuous to keep showing a smiling, class picture of a 10 year old kid when you're referring to a 6'3" 17 year old football player/ gangbanger that was recently kicked out of school.

Posted by: Damiano at March 23, 2012 02:48 PM (A2+pr)

Sorry, didn't see your post when I asked the question about the "poor little black boy's" size. Wow, just wow. Pass the kid off as 12 when he's a 17 year old gang banging monster of a man. The media, the "reverends", the race mongers, and the white apologists can all go straight to hell.

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 10:52 AM (JfvbF)

168 Holy Shit. I agree with everything you wrote Ace. Good job laying it out.

I have to go lie down in the dark with a wet washcloth on my forehead for a while.

Posted by: sifty at March 23, 2012 10:52 AM (uGQ4X)

169 I bet if we try hard enough we could get Zimmerman found guilty of the Linburgh kidnapping

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 10:53 AM (eCnLg)

170 REPUBLICANS ARE RACIST AGAINST HISPANICS, UNLESS THOSE HISPANICS SHOOT BLACK TEENAGERS, IN WHICH CASE SAID HISPANICS ARE WHITE. GET IT, STUPID TEABAGGER?

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:53 AM (QTVh2)

171 Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 02:44 PM

Yes, because he was just reaching for his Bible

Sounds like that 911 call proves Martin was just a nice kid

/sarc

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 10:53 AM (Y+DPZ)

172 Point 8. Wow. Yah, that's kinda 'it' in a nutshell. This isn't going to end well.

Posted by: JQ Public at March 23, 2012 10:53 AM (NBj0d)

173 I let you guys get away with not sucking my Lord Obama's cock, but this is just too much. On your knees, you racist teabaggers!

Posted by: Palooka! at March 23, 2012 10:53 AM (ggRof)

174 The media simply lies. Taking the media at their word, this looks like a wrongful killing and and overzealous wannabe cop. But why should I take them at their word? They LIE CONSTANTLY. Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 02:48 PM (nj1bB) ************* Correct. I've stopped watching them. Go to the tapes I linked above... You guys can listen for yourselves. Local media is still better than national media these days and that station plays the tapes out in a straight forward manner. They've only been edited to protect the details of the callers.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:53 AM (r2PLg)

175 He is not to be confused with Shawn Tyson of Sarasota who is charged with murdering the two Brits.

Posted by: Miami Herald editor at March 23, 2012 02:52 PM (bPbwB)

===yes, I was wrong about that: Totally, completely, unalterably, undeniably wrong, with no excuse whatsover

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 10:54 AM (Dll6b)

176 So that's possibly one of the reasons they didn't arrest Zimmerman?

That is precisely one of the reasons they didn't arrest Zimmerman. Go read sooth's link. The very first thing is a Q&A w/ the police chief wherein he details why Zimmerman was not arrested.

Nothing since then has changed any of those initial facts.

He can't defend his use of deadly force, because he started the confrontation by acting in a threatening manner.

Problem is he doesn't have to defend his use of deadly force: prosecution does have to prove that he acted in a threatening manner.

And now (just in this thread is the first time for me) we're hearing that it might have been that Martin actively rushed Zimmerman- which would put this straight back into "self defense."

Even without that, all Zimmerman has to say is that he calmly exited his vehicle, attempted to approach Martin to ask what he was doing there (in light of the previous break-ins, and other suspicious circumstances), and was attacked.

Certainly at that point, Zimmerman would be reasonable to believe he was not acting in a threatening manner, and (again) we're back to fully justified self-defense.

Now, I don't know that any of these are what happened. But they're all logical conclusions based on currently known information. Which means that (as far as it goes right now) prosecuting him even for manslaughter would be difficult.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 10:54 AM (8y9MW)

177 Was the shooting on Private Property? would that play into this?

Posted by: Cast Iron at March 23, 2012 10:54 AM (EL+OC)

178 FACT: According to http://Crimemapping.com, 282 crimes happened within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months

Posted by: Taken from Jimmy Simpson (informedblackmn)'s Twitter Feed at March 23, 2012 10:54 AM (1nDGk)

179 How about we have Muslim women wear hoodies, while Black and Hispanic gang members and their wannabees were a burka.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at March 23, 2012 10:54 AM (e8kgV)

180

If only the national media and all the usual suspects raised this furor over the routine killings of innocent young black men who are killed while going about their daily business in their own neighborhoods. It's heartbreaking to read the stories because it's always the good kids who get offed in drive-bys, usually gang-related - that occur with too much frequency in Philadelphia, Camden NJ, Wilmington DE, Chicago, Miami, (insert urban area here).

It's not just an issue of the MFM under-reporting or downright ignoring black hate crimes on white folk. They don't even care about the hundreds of Black children senselessly killed in cities across the nation. I guess as long as the perp is white, then it deserves attention.

Posted by: kallisto at March 23, 2012 10:54 AM (jm/9g)

181

As mentioned before, Martin may not have been the "toothpick" as described. The MSM keeps showing a photo of 12 year-old Martin, not the 17 year old who allegdley was 6 foot 3.

Question:. If, in fact, the citizen's arrest theory is correct, how much is Martin allowed to beat on Zimmerman before Zimmerman can shoot back?

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (YmPwQ)

182 To me the 911 call illustrates Zimmerman's state of mind and his increasing agitation.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (jUytm)

183 <<I listened to that five times at huffPo -do they bleep it-becasue I can't hear what they tell me I am suppose to hear.>>

That because only dogs can hear in that range.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (tf9Ne)

184 Ace, I'm betting we're gonna see some 'Sekrit Racist Friends' on the ol' AoSHQ now...

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (MMC8r)

185 What does that even mean-"If I had a son he'd look like Trayvon?" and how the heck does that have any bearing on this situation? I wish Obama would shut his mouth.

There is a clever element in SCOAMF saying this. It helps make it more emotional, in several ways: 1. poor SCOAMF doesn't have a son; 2. poor SCOAMF understands what it is like to lose his son to violence.

There isn't obvious gain if everybody sticks to facts and evidence and logic but inject emotion and SCOAMF has a lot to gain by appearing to be on "our" side and against "them", the ill-defined "bad guy".

Posted by: Retread at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (joSBv)

186
>>>In the second scenario I can't see any way in which Zimmermann would be guilty of a crime. If he was merely following the guy and then got attacked, I can't see it.

Zimmerman noted in the 911 call that Trayvon spotted him, noted he was being followed, and ran. That is your cue that the other person perceives you as a threat. Even if Travon did throw the first blow, you can't escape that by continuing to follow him after Trayvon attempted to break contact that you were by any reasonable standard threatening him, making Trayvon's actions an act of self defense.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (0q2P7)

187

Who cares? A black murders a black teen every day somewhere in the US. No one, and I mean no one, cares.

Let the race hustlers hustle. The chances of this boomeranging against the libs is high.

Posted by: Bob from Ohio at March 23, 2012 10:55 AM (ROFkf)

188 >>I think the Duke Lacrosse "rape" was a hard lesson for the bandwaggoneers.

I don't think they learned a thing.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 10:56 AM (ZKzrr)

189 Obama is a stuttering clusterfu*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 10:56 AM (vd4t0)

190 IF WE FINALLY HAD A BLACK PRESIDENT THEN THIS SORT OF KKK NONSENSE WOULDN'T HAPPEN.

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:56 AM (QTVh2)

191 Jesse Jackson, bastard

Both literally and figuratively.

Posted by: toby928© at March 23, 2012 10:56 AM (GTbGH)

192 102 In addition, while we don't know the facts, it is claimed that Martin was unarmed; so how would Zimmerman have a reasonable belief his life was in danger?

Your life is in danger any time there's a physical confrontation. You fall hit your head just so - game over. You get put in a choke hold - game over. You become incapacitated and attacker continues the beating - game over.

My take is that is Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, he had no right to escalate and use his firearm when it went wrong. If Martin struck him first and Zimmerman was overcome, the using deadly force was the right, if tragic, choice.

Posted by: Xander Crews at March 23, 2012 10:56 AM (n3A9E)

193 Where in the world can Z get a fair and impartial trial? This is politicized all to hell and back. His lawyer should have a field day with the Pres, for goodness sake, chiming in.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at March 23, 2012 10:57 AM (X/+QT)

194 This had something to do with the stand you ground law...really? Did fuck face mention it? Was he aware of it...the narrative...who gets to say what it is?

Posted by: lecture us, Mr. Poop at March 23, 2012 10:57 AM (qxcKC)

195 Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 23, 2012 02:51 PM (JxMoP) ************** If you listen to the 911 tapes calls 1-3 that I posted above- the calls for help are pretty damn protracted and one sided. It's heartbreaking.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 10:57 AM (r2PLg)

196 This race hustling movement will merge will OWS and be nationwide and violent in time for the conventions. This is a classic Marxist revolutionary process.

Posted by: runninrebel at March 23, 2012 10:57 AM (17m9R)

197 Let's say Trayvon did swing around and jump Zimmerman. WHY would he do that? All he had to say, when Zimmerman braced him, was, "Oh, I live here, with my dad. His house is right up there. Come on, I'll show you," lead him up there and ring the bell.

Dad comes to the door. "Yes, that's my son." "Sorry to have bothered you, Mr. Martin." "Not at all. Thank you for keeping an eye out for our neighborhood." Case closed.

But of course, this describes and presupposes a sensible, sane society -- not the Bizarro World we've tumbled into.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at March 23, 2012 10:57 AM (exvgC)

198 There was also an eyewitness that saw the Trayvon (6'3") pummeling Zimmerman on the ground. Zimmerman was yelling for help. Zimmerman had blacks in his family, welcomed a black neighbor to the neighborhood and mentored two black children. The fucking media, 0bama, Sharpton et al. are sick fucks out to create a race war.

Posted by: eureka! at March 23, 2012 10:58 AM (LQIyD)

199 President Barack "Joe Biden" Obama.

Posted by: dogfish at March 23, 2012 10:58 AM (N2yhW)

200 Vic, this is first I've heard anything about a TM rap sheet - do you have a link?

Posted by: MÃ¦tenloch at March 23, 2012 02:45 PM (+B3Nr)

----------------------

It was in a local paper. I didn't copy it. Both of them have rap sheets. Travon's has been withdrawn if I am not mistaken.

Posted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 10:58 AM (YdQQY)

201 I HEARD ON MSNBC THAT THIS WHITE REPUBLICAN ZIMMERMAN GUY WAS SEEN READING SARAH PALIN'S LATEST BOOK SHORTLY BEFORE HE DECIDED TO MURDER A HELPLESS BLACK YOUT.

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 10:58 AM (QTVh2)

202 I blogged about how the MSM can't wait for all the facts to develop before they start smearing Conservatives as being the 'cause' of things like the Toulouse, France shootings and the TrayVon Martin shooting. Twitter sample with link to the blog: http://tinyurl.com/7suwdm6

Posted by: drawandstrike at March 23, 2012 10:59 AM (iGKkt)

203 I'm going to shoot a white kid this afternoon to prove that I'm not racist.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 23, 2012 10:59 AM (FEqS6)

204 Medias war on democracy.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at March 23, 2012 10:59 AM (AWmfW)

205 But we still don't know who it is, either Zimmerman or Martin, yelling for help That's the key piece I'm waiting for that can turn me fully in one direction or the other.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 10:59 AM (jUytm)

206 >>>To what exactly? Did he cede his right to travel on foot at some point? It's relevant if Zimmerman's claim (which it appears to be) is that he was attacked. If the kid is a choirboy, that seems unlikely. If he's got a rap sheet and a gang affiliation, then it seems like Zimmerman's story holds water. It's not a smoking-gun proof thing -- but it is relevant, yes. It would be relevant to say "he's a choirboy, he has never gone wrong with the law" to knock down Zimmerman's claim (we infer that people behave in accordance with past practice). It's similarly relevant to say if he's got a rap sheet (which I don't know, vic's comment is the first I've heard of it) that it's marginally more likely that Zimmerman's tale is the truth. Look, don't get snookered here, on either side. Don't get snookered by either racial team. This case is not about white vs. black. it's about a very specific set of facts.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 10:59 AM (nj1bB)

207 But of course, this describes and presupposes a sensible, sane society -- not the Bizarro World we've tumbled into.

This is also what happens when people in that same society adopt an attitude that they deserve respect without actually having to do anything to earn respect.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 11:00 AM (sbV1u)

208 Like Ace said, wait for ALL the facts on this one cuz they haven't been reported. Posted by: Room Temp at March 23, 2012 02:45 PM

Nor will they be by the MBM. If this starts hurting Obama, it'll be "nothing to see here, let's MoveOn"

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:00 AM (Y+DPZ)

209 Somewhere....somewhere, out there, there has to be a current picture of Trayvon.....a full ~~shot~~ view of him, standing up. ....Until we get to see that, we really don't have the full story of what Zimmerman was dealing with, and what led him to fire his weapon.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 11:00 AM (4GgJq)

210

"Further, it appears (again, appears) that Zimmerman initiated the contact/confrontation, not the kid, so the "stand your ground" law is not even relevant in the case."

you dont really think iniating a verbal confrontation strips you of your right to self defense

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 11:00 AM (xAq1C)

211 If obama is really half white how could he be sure his son would look like trayvon? Trayvon what kind of blame is that anyway?

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:00 AM (eCnLg)

212 and I as scold the black racists for assuming the White Man is guilty, I see a lot of white racists who are pretty damn sure that the black guy is guilty, because, well, LOOK AT 'IM. Come on. Knock it the fuck off. Stop venting in this embarrassing, primitive, tribal manner.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (nj1bB)

213
And what pisses me off beyond words is the complete, total blackout of the white kid who was set on fucking FIRE while black kids expressly called him out for being white and he "got what he deserved." Fucking Sharpton: silent. Fucking Obama: silent. Fucking Farrakan: silent. Fucking media: silent. The fucking entire left: silent.

Posted by: Lady in Black.....{sigh} at March 23, 2012 02:33 PM (F+Xfj)

When did this happen?

Anybody have any links to the story?

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (7+pP9)

214 The Agitator in Chief is at it again I see.

Posted by: Lord Monochromicorn at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (nBxFQ)

215 72 If Zimmerman is white, then so is Obama? Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 02:37 PM (GQ8sn) He prefers to be called a Person of Cafe Latte Color, thank you very much...

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (niZvt)

216 206 Vic, this is first I've heard anything about a TM rap sheet - do you have a link?

Posted by: MÃ¦tenloch at March 23, 2012 02:45 PM (+B3Nr)
----------------------

It was in a local paper. I didn't copy it. Both of them have rap sheets. Travon's has been withdrawn if I am not mistaken.
*

Because it doesn't fit The Narrative. And if he'd been suspended for 10 days, he'd probably done something a lot worse than be tardy. The media are picking and choosing the details to fit their story, instead of reporting the truth, as they always do.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (exvgC)

217 Nice post Ace. I read: Blah Blah Blah lying media scum, Blah Blah Blah "Facts, not ginned up racial outrage or general anti-gun animus, answer these questions." Blah Blah Blah Obama plays the race card Blah Blah Blah "Stand your ground? WTF does that have to do with you wanting to outlaw guns?

Posted by: Daybrother at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (WCuHB)

218 ANY BETS ON WHAT BILL MAHER WILL HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS TONIGHT? I BET HE'LL SAY THAT ZIMMERMAN HAS THE BEST TAN OF ANY TEABAGGING WHITE SUPREMACIST THAT HE'S EVER SEEN. ALSO, HE WILL CALL SARAH PALIN A CUNT.

Posted by: ITBEEZRASSISMS at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (QTVh2)

219 Then we'll have massive strikes, rioting, and who knows what from government once the well starts to run dry.

Posted by: runninrebel at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (17m9R)

220 Shawn Tyson is the black guy who is on trial for killing two British tourists.

Watch him get off now. Like OJ for Rodney King.

Posted by: Dang at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (BbX1b)

221 If obama is really half white how could he be sure his son would look like trayvon? Trayvon what kind of blame is that anyway? Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 03:00 PM (eCnLg) Shit I meant what kind of name is that? Ah what the fuck

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:01 AM (eCnLg)

222 So let me get this straight: If Zimmerman is shot by a white guy, he's a victim of white racism. If Zimmerman shoots a black guy, he's a perpetrator of white racism. Neat trick, all that.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (niZvt)

223 188 To me the 911 call illustrates Zimmerman's state of mind and his increasing agitation. Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 02:55 PM (jUytm) ******** Okay. he called the police 46 times over a certain period.IIRC They also have some of those calls at the link I left. I didn't listen to them. There had been a series of break ins in the neighborhood.... I saw a video of a resident in the neighborhood who called the rash of break ins "the perfect storm" for this to happen.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (r2PLg)

224 A man shouldn't need recourse to a gun against a 17 year old .

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (vd4t0)

225 209 I'm going to shoot a white kid this afternoon to prove that I'm not racist.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 23, 2012 02:59 PM (FEqS6)

You mean a hispanic kid.

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (GQ8sn)

226
Vic:

Do you have any links to Trayvon Martin's criminal record?

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (7+pP9)

227 By the time Eric Holder has his say, neighborhood watch groups are tagged Hate Crime Organizations, targeted by the DHS and IRS Swat Teams for federal prosecution, arresting all volunteers as "vigilantes", confiscating homes and property as "evidence of criminal activity," formerly thought the American Dream, "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

/GWBush called those whom Michelle Malkin originally championed "vigilantes" -- real-time volunteers communicating illegal alien crossings directly to the Border Patrol.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (lpWVn)

228

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 02:55 PM (0q2P7)

is it allowable to use physical force to prevent someone from following you in a public area?

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 11:02 AM (xAq1C)

229 and I as scold the black racists for assuming the White Man is guilty, I see a lot of white racists who are pretty damn sure that the black guy is guilty, because, well, LOOK AT 'IM. [\i] Thanks, Ace.

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 11:03 AM (MMC8r)

230 If Trayvon was a 6'3 FL football player wearing a hoodie -- we know he wouldn't have looked like Obama wearing mom jeans on martha's vinyard. If you had suggested he looked like that - you would have gotten a beating.

Posted by: Jean at March 23, 2012 11:03 AM (WkuV6)

231 When a Black kills another Black it's not like racism, or racism racism.

My theory is that all the good white liberals in the MFM just expect black folks to act like savages, and they're cool with it as long as they keep it to themselves.

It's when you have some white/black interaction that's not all peaches and cream that they get really excited. It doesn't matter who's really at fault, 'cause we all know whitey is.

That's the view that really sells papers.

I fucking hate the media. Or I hate the fucking media, I forget which.

People are people. Period. But thanks to the media and Al Sharpton, we can't let anyone think that. It's bad for business.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 11:03 AM (sbV1u)

232 232 A man shouldn't need recourse to a gun against a 17 year old .

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 03:02 PM (vd4t0)

Good luck with that notion in LA.

Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (T2/zQ)

233 When did this happen?

Anybody have any links to the story?

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 03:01 PM (7+pP9)

************

Link in my nick.

Posted by: Pimpbot 5000 at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (ggRof)

234 If anyone ever looked into MY state of mind, they would see: ( o )( o ) Just had to work those into this thread, somehow...

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (niZvt)

235 >>>Question:. If, in fact, the citizen's arrest theory is correct, how much is Martin allowed to beat on Zimmerman before Zimmerman can shoot back?

Well you have committed a wrong in this case, and there is no getting out of criminal liability while you still draw breath. If you wait till you are on deaths door (Your death is imminent) you might be able to mitigate your criminal liability to Man 2. Indicating that you acted stupidly but did your best to get out of it and the killing was involuntary.

If you use normal bounds of self defense of responding when you thought the person was threatening your life, then you made no special effort to undue your stupidity and therefore the killing was voluntary. Man 1

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (0q2P7)

236

What cho lookin at. You lookin at me, bitch? You followin me?....*smack*

Posted by: friendly neighbor-hoodie gang banger... at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (4GgJq)

237 is it allowable to use physical force to prevent someone from following you in a public area? Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 03:02 PM (xAq1C) ? Not sure but I hope they never make it illegal to stare at a nice piece of ass in a public area

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (eCnLg)

238 Obama was wrong on many levels when making that comment. But we know he's wrong about 1 think in particular. If he had a son, Barack Jr. would look just like Steve Urkel.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (/Mla1)

239 Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 02:44 PM (jUytm)

You listened to the tape and didn't read the report.
"While I was in such close contact with Mr. Zimmerman I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and covered in grass, as if he had been lying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

"Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my vehicle and given first aid by the SFD. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me."

From the report of Officer Timothy Smith. Also 6 witnesses were interviewed.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (3jGS1)

240 Black on black crime is like muslim on muslim terrorism: The groups don't care. They don't like 'The Other' doing it.

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (MMC8r)

241 tasker, what do the tapes demonstrate? I've heard much of them. To me they don't answer any of the questions. Yes, Zimmerman was obviously of the belief this guy was a criminal; he also was of the belief he was a "fucking coon" and such assholes "always get away." Is there any tape available from the time of the shooting? Like was he on with 911? I imagine not, or else we'd have heard that.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 11:04 AM (nj1bB)

242 This is going to turn on the liberal media , fluke slap them with it.

"Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.

George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.

"He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever ...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.""

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at March 23, 2012 11:05 AM (AWmfW)

243 We have to hear from HS students ...

http://tinyurl.com/75b2vd5

More Trayvon Martin Walkouts at Miami Schools

They'll go straight to the library to study after a candlelight vigil of course ...

"Sharpton told those gathered at the rally that "Zimmerman should have been arrested that night" and that police had probable cause."

Sharpton is a legal expert I assume. Remember how his expertise worked in the Brawley scam?

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:05 AM (Y+DPZ)

244 It's entirely possible for two people to get into an altercation, and for BOTH participants to be mistaken as to the facts, but for both to nevertheless act within the bounds of their rights to self-defense.

It's legal to act in self-defense if you act with REASONABLE BELIEF that you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

It is not necessary that you be correct. It's still valid self-defense, even if you turn out to have been mistaken, if you acted based on what you reasonably believed at the time.

It's entirely possible that Trayvon genuinely (but mistakenly) believed Zimmerman to be stalking him with the intent of robbing him. That is patently incorrect, but let's say that Trayvon thought that, and that belief (while mistaken) was reasonable.

It's also possible that Zimmerman genuinely (but mistakenly) believed that when Trayvon attacked him, the attack was aggressive, intended to conceal Trayvon's crimes, not motivated by Trayvon's attempt at self-defense.

It is possible that if they both knew all of the facts about each other's actions and intentions (which are only coming out with the help of massive social activity, media attention, time and investigation, none of which either men had the benefit of), that Trayvon would not have attacked, and Zimmerman would not have shot.

Hence, it's possible this is a case of mutual mistake.

But in this fucked up Progressive, Obama-esque, pot-banging bullshit society I woke up in, things like law and reason don't fucking matter.

So, I mock it.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:05 AM (KNtHw)

245 Some of you are pointing out Zimmerman's 911 tapes, yet you aren't asking WHY Trayvon DIDN'T call 911. We know he had a phone.

From the facts we have, it seems as if he attacked Zimmerman. If he felt he was in danger, why didn't he call the cops?

Posted by: momma at March 23, 2012 11:05 AM (oKsWl)

246 243 If anyone ever looked into MY state of mind, they would see:

( o )( o )

Just had to work those into this thread, somehow...

Eyes?

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 11:05 AM (GQ8sn)

247 Neat trick, all that.
--

Jeb Bush endorsed Rubio VP for more than his record. Meanwhile, back at the White House, Obama/Holder fell into their own Hate Crime trap v. Hispanic Vote.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:05 AM (lpWVn)

248 One thing the facts, as we know them, prove is that Obama is one hell of a lawyer.

Posted by: garrett at March 23, 2012 11:06 AM (NOwGM)

249 Because it doesn't fit The Narrative. And if he'd been suspended for 10 days, he'd probably done something a lot worse than be tardy ********************** Miami Herald Still, Trayvon had nonviolent behavioral issues in school, and on the day he was killed, he had been suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade. Â“He was not suspended for something dealing with violence or anything like that. It wasnÂ’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area [on school property],Â” Martin said, declining to offer more details. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/27089 60/trayvon-martin-a-typical- teen.html#storylink=cpy

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 11:06 AM (r2PLg)

250 If I had a son, he'd look like the white kid after he was set on fire.

Posted by: Barack Obama at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (bN5ZU)

251 246 Zimmerman... so he's an Amish? Fascinating. Posted by: Spock grocks Glocks, say it 3X fast at March 23, 2012 03:04 PM (+LCjv) Likely Argentine... a country proud of its 95% European heritage demographics, and a favorite place for Germans to emigrate to c. 1945 for some reason it's considered rather insensitive to mention. Not that I'm casting aspersions on Zimmerman's ancestry or anything...

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (niZvt)

252
And we see the result of these moron journalists and editors having their empty heads stuffed with CRT.

Cathode Ray Tubes.

Or Critical Race Theory...

It comes right out of the Billy Ayers edumacation textbook.

Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz Romney at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (UDdec)

253 >>There is a clever element in SCOAMF saying this. It helps make it more emotional, in several ways: 1. poor SCOAMF doesn't have a son; 2. poor SCOAMF understands what it is like to lose his son to violence.

Poor SCOAMF has two daughters. Imagine if they bring a Trayvon home.

(Unlikely because Trayvons can't afford Sidwell Friends' tuition, but once they get out from under Mrs SCOAMF's control-freak thumb...)

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (ZKzrr)

254 Zimmerman called him a fucking coon???

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (/Mla1)

255 Soothsayer you've also said you believed it was Martin who was yelling for help.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (A2cTV)

256 It wasnÂ’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area [on school property],Â” Martin said, declining to offer more details.

I wonder....

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (GQ8sn)

257 Is that what the "stand your ground" law is meant to legalize?

Surely not. You cannot pick a fight with someone then kill him dead just because you lost.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 02:39 PM (nj1bB)

===That's not what I said, or implied. I accurately summarized the law. Everything else you wrote in this post is All Ace; none is Moi

not venting; not 'tribal' (whatever that is ); not wanting this to be an issue

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (Dll6b)

258 We need to pay reparations because slaves built the Brooklyn Bridge. What?

Posted by: Queequeg the Harpooner at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (gTk5b)

259 Sharpton is a legal expert I assume. Remember how his expertise worked in the Brawley scam? Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 03:05 PM (Y+DPZ) And of course now that he is also an esteemed corespondent for MSNBC and Assistant Professor of English at the Streets of NYC University

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:07 AM (eCnLg)

260 So, when do the black friends and family of Z speak out to defend him?

Posted by: Jimmuy at March 23, 2012 11:08 AM (BLEio)

261 Black on black crime is like muslim on muslim terrorism: The groups don't care. They don't like 'The Other' doing it.
--
Which explains the Baltimore and Chicago murder statistics staying smothered under the organized criminal media rug.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:08 AM (lpWVn)

262 Zimmerman's 911 call is enough to put him away for at least manslaughter. The only reason to follow someone is if they're moving away from you. If you follow someone, while strapped, are told by authorities not to continue and that officers are enroute, you are in the wrong.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:08 AM (bwV72)

263 Eyes? Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 03:05 PM (GQ8sn) Wheels. Great big truck-sized wheels...

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:08 AM (niZvt)

264

Zimmerman called him a fucking coon???

That was a South Park ref. to a vigilante crime fighter.

Posted by: garrett at March 23, 2012 11:08 AM (NOwGM)

265 >>If Zimmerman is white, then so is Obama?

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 02:37 PM (GQ8sn)<<

Obama's exactly as white as he is black. You just don't hear as much about it...not nearly as trendy, don't ya know.

Posted by: antisocialist at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (j/nZn)

266 Is there any tape available from the time of the shooting? Like was he on with 911? I imagine not, or else we'd have heard that. ************* Ace Listen to the first link I left. Calls 1 through 3. You can hear someone calling for help repeatedly and you can hear the gun shot.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (r2PLg)

267 >>> "A man shouldn't need recourse to a gun against a 17 year old."

A. Fuck you.

B. A man shouldn't have to be concerned about people breaking in and stealing shit from his house, and then be tackled from behind by a teenager with football training and a history of being deemed too violent to attend school, but that's the world we live in.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (KNtHw)

268 If I had a son, he would look like Steve Urkel.

Posted by: Barky at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (l/N7H)

269 It would be relevant to say "he's a choirboy, he has never gone wrong with the law" to knock down Zimmerman's claim (we infer that people behave in accordance with past practice). It's similarly relevant to say if he's got a rap sheet (which I don't know, vic's comment is the first I've heard of it) that it's marginally more likely that Zimmerman's tale is the truth.

If we're inferring that people behave in accordance with past practice, then Zimmerman is guilty because of his rap sheet, right? Or do they cancel each other? I'm not sure how this use of rap sheets to prove completely different crimes works, I didn't go to law school and such.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (+lsX1)

270 214Nothing like a good race war to gin up some support.

Don't say a word about the 19 Blacks that got killed LAST WEEKEND in my hometown of Chicago.

When a Black kills another Black it's not like racism, or racism racism.

Posted by: Barry at March 23, 2012 02:59 PM (hXJOG)

IMPOSSIBLE. Chicago is a 'gun-free' zone. Everyone knows this. I suspect hyper-sonic mosquito's that turn into inert, mishapen lumps of lead when they hit something and die.

Posted by: JQ Public at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (NBj0d)

271 he called the police 46 times over a certain period.IIRC
They also have some of those calls at the link I left.Posted by: tasker

Over a decade accding to the Atlantic. Not exactly average but not extreme either.

So it seems his neighborhood watch thing wasn't just a recent fascination nor had he gotten into trouble confronting people.

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (WdKsY)

272 Great big truck-sized wheels... Posted by: CoolCzech

Steady. Steady big fella. Keep it together. Gushie isn't here right now.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (sbV1u)

273 If you listen to the 911 tapes calls 1-3 that I posted above-

the calls for help are pretty damn protracted and one sided.

It's heartbreaking.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 02:57 PM (r2PLg)

The cries for help were coming from Zimmerman, not Trayvon. Trayvon's dad listened to the tape and said so. Please read the actual quotes from the police report in #249

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (3jGS1)

274 >>> Zimmerman called him a fucking coon??? He did. that's on the tape. Doesn't seem like it could be anything else. But that doesn't answer the question either. It does suggest he may have been pre-inclined to suspect the guy, or what some Street Justice.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 11:09 AM (nj1bB)

275 In the background.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 11:10 AM (r2PLg)

276 I know this kinda goes without saying because Liberals can't help but overplay their hand, but isn't this going to anger their precious White Hispanic voting block? This story went on for days without anyone ever producing a picture of Zimmermann. He was only referenced as "white". It's totally believable to me the Soledad's and the Erin Burnett's and Chris Matthew's didn't even have a clue about his international flavor.

Posted by: ktgreat at March 23, 2012 11:10 AM (TCTPY)

277 Wheels.

Great big truck-sized wheels...

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 03:08 PM (niZvt)

I see what you did there. Nice!

Posted by: EC at March 23, 2012 11:10 AM (GQ8sn)

278 I was never sure who was yelling for help but I assumed it was Martin. I said that clearly yesterday. Now I learn that Zimmerman says it was him. This does shift things in Zimmerman's favor -- but only slightly.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:10 AM (jUytm)

279

WHY Trayvon DIDN'T call 911. We know he had a phone.

911 is a joke, we don't want em.

Posted by: Flava Flav at March 23, 2012 11:10 AM (JxMoP)

280 Ace It's this one: http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/teen-shooting-911-calls-1-3/vGZnj/

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 11:10 AM (r2PLg)

281 And, anyway, if Obama had a son, he would NOT look like Trayvon.
Trayvon was a handsome young man.

Posted by: antisocialist at March 23, 2012 11:11 AM (j/nZn)

282 He was 6'3 but only 140 pounds.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:11 AM (vd4t0)

283

Yes you have to be carefull when wondering aloud whether or not any black on the street is a suspect. The fact that half of all crime is commited by this 10% demographic should never be taken into account or you'll be Ron Pauled right out of business.

Posted by: Jimmah at March 23, 2012 11:11 AM (UpwlP)

284 This is how I look at this entire story: 1. A man - white, black, Hispanic, Oriental, who cares? - was asked by his community to watch for crime. He did that, and no one complained. In fact, they praised him for stopping burglaries of homes, by - of all people, young black men in hoodies. 2. The man saw a young black man in a hoodie. He decided to follow him to see what he was doing. The young man was acting strangely, shaking around (possibly on drugs) and talking on a phone. He was not identified as being from the neighborhood. 3. The man confronted the kid and asked him why he was there. From what he told police, the kid attacked him, punching him in the face and head. The man then defended himself by using the only weapon he had Â– a gun. 4. The kid was only armed with an iced tea and Skittles. It is a tragedy that he was shot. 5. Imagine if, however, the kid was there to do something insidious. The man who confronted him does not have a gun, and he is shot by a random burglar. The man dies. Now: would Al Sharpton, or CNN, do a story about the case? You donÂ’t even have to answer than questionÂ…they wouldnÂ’t waste their time. 6. Because we have a black President, the media likes to inflame racial tensions and get him involved Â– the same as what happened with the Henry Louis Gates case in Massachusetts. And despite his long and disgusting record of anti-Semitism and race baiting, the media continues to listen to what Al Sharpton has to say. 7. Imagine what will happen now when this goes to a grand jury, they hear all of the facts (not just the ones the media wants us to hear), and they decide not to indict Zimmerman? Or they do indict him, and in a trial he is found not guilty? Is anyone ready for more race riots so our dear beloved President can take advantage of them? IÂ’ve had my say on this. I lived in Florida, and the place is pretty segregated. You either live in an all-white area or your live in a ghetto.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:11 AM (IhUxK)

285
>>>is it allowable to use physical force to prevent someone from following you in a public area?

If you run, and someone (non uniformed) continues to pursue you, and reasonable other avenues of protection, (Public space with lots of people, police etc) were not available *I* would feel threatened and use physical force to defend myself. I would be comfortable defending that decision as reasonable.

When you are packing iron, you have to make those distinctions as part and parcel to the responsibility you have voluntarily placed on yourself. If you do something a reasonable person would interpret as a threat of physical harm, and they defend themselves, your use of your firearm is a crime. The only question is what kind of crime.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:11 AM (0q2P7)

286 If I had a son, he'd look like the white kid after he was set on fire. Posted by: Barack Obama

His reference as if to a long lost son was weird, as if a cue for his bastard to step forward.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:11 AM (lpWVn)

287 >>> Zimmerman called him a fucking coon???

Either that, or Zimmerman saw a racoon. And he hates them.

Or he saw two racoons that were actually fucking.

That portion of the story is unverified, as far as I know.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:12 AM (KNtHw)

288 255 Some of you are pointing out Zimmerman's 911 tapes, yet you aren't asking WHY Trayvon DIDN'T call 911. We know he had a phone It's been reported that he was on the phone with a girl he knew and told her he was being followed by a crazy guy and he was going to try to run away.

Posted by: Supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:12 AM (/iaWb)

289 I've also heard Z referred to as a 'self-appointed Neighborhood Watch' captain. The possibility of him being a bit of a loose cannon could have badly exacerbated the whole situation.

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 11:12 AM (MMC8r)

290

On a tape recording....."coon" and "goon" sound an awful lot alike.

I'm still waiting for the full details to come out.

Posted by: friendly neighbor-hoodie gang banger... at March 23, 2012 11:12 AM (4GgJq)

291 If I had a son, he would look like Moochelle.

Posted by: Bo the Portuguese Waterboarding Dog at March 23, 2012 11:12 AM (niZvt)

292 If obama was jewish would his kids look like 3 kids gunned down in France the other day?

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:13 AM (eCnLg)

293 278 Fuck you,really?For what?Are you a pussy who gets beat up by 17 year olds?

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:13 AM (vd4t0)

294
Thanks Pimpbot 5000.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:13 AM (7+pP9)

295 ooops...stinky sock off.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 11:13 AM (4GgJq)

296 I haven't read about the case but someone said the dead boy's dad lived in the neighborhood. If that's true, is it possible that the kid was just as suspicious of Zimmerman as Zimmerman was of the kid. Is it possible the kid also knew about the neighborhood breakins and wondered if Zimmerman was there, in his dad's neighborhood, to breakin?

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 11:13 AM (oZfic)

297 I was never sure who was yelling for help but I assumed it was Martin. I said that clearly yesterday. Now I learn that Zimmerman says it was him. This does shift things in Zimmerman's favor -- but only slightly. Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 03:10 PM (jUytm) ********************* soothsayer It's going to be pretty damn easy to identify. The police have the complete unedited tapes. The protracted calls for help will either match Zimmerman's voice or not. Also in the second set of calls at about the 5:30 mark there was a boy who was outside and saw someone on the ground who was yelling for help. His dog got off the leash-so he ran back into his house to secure the dog before going back to help but then the shot went off. That person saw the initial stages of the confrontation.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (r2PLg)

298 This does shift things in Zimmerman's favor -- but only slightly.Posted by: soothsayer

What's the matter? Your psychic abilities failing, Shawnsayer?

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (WdKsY)

299 But that doesn't answer the question either. It does suggest he may have been pre-inclined to suspect the guy, or what some Street Justice.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 03:09 PM (nj1bB)

He probably was pre-inclined to suspect him. But that's because Zimmerman supposedly caught a guy trying to break into a house a couple weeks earlier who matched the description (well, it was a young black male, not sure how much more he matched), but the guy ran away. So Zimmerman may have been looking more closely at black males because he knew at least 1 was actively lurking around his neighborhood committing burglaries.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (/Mla1)

300 His reference as if to a long lost son was weird, as if a cue for his bastard to step forward.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 03:11 PM (lpWVn)

**********

I could get another guy pregnant? Oh, crap....

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (ggRof)

301 "Zimmerman called him a fucking coon?" That's what CNN alleged. They had Gary Tuchman (Jewish for "Assman") to get someone to clear the tape up, slow it down, cut out noises, etc. All you can hear is "fucking ___." He could have said "coon," or could have said "fucking goons" or something else. Even Tuchesman couldn't say, and the sound engineer says it is impossible to know one way or another.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (IhUxK)

302 On a tape recording....."coon" and "goon" sound an awful lot alike. I'm still waiting for the full details to come out. Posted by: friendly neighbor-hoodie gang banger... at March 23, 2012 03:12 PM (4GgJq) Zimmerman should have stuck to the always popular cock sucker and and left anything with "oon" in it out

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (eCnLg)

303 232 A man shouldn't need recourse to a gun against a 17 year old . Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 03:02 PM

Sweet fancy moses! What kind of neighborhood do you live in?

In the gangbanger world, a 17 year old is a seasoned veteran. They've got 12 year olds who would blow you away just for laughs.

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (Y+DPZ)

304 >>And despite his long and disgusting record of anti-Semitism and race baiting, the media continues to listen to what Al Sharpton has to say.

Despite, because, it's hard to tell.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (ZKzrr)

305 Just a piece of information from someone who lives near Sanford. It has a long history of racial problems. It's one of those old Florida towns that really embraced Jim Crow back in the day and which has remained fairly segregated ever since. I'm not saying that it's some sort of throwback town, just one that hasn't changed all that much.

The real problem with all this is that the Sanford police department has a reputation for incompetence that is really saying something considering this is Florida. That's why this has blown up: Sanford police did a crappy job investigating this, and now the freakin' Feds are showing up.

Plus, Al Sharpton. I'll never forgive Zimmerman for giving that piece of crap an excuse to soil the area.

Posted by: Pious Agnostic at March 23, 2012 11:14 AM (PiESu)

306 Damn good post Ace. And to the commenter that posted up the raw data links also thanks, now we can see the real info with out the media filter getting in the way.

Posted by: Janir at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (HOjYi)

307 Now I learn that Zimmerman says it was him.

This does shift things in Zimmerman's favor -- but only slightly.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 03:10 PM (jUytm)

Trayvon's dad said that it wasn't Trayvon. Did you read from the police report in #249. Back of head and nose bleeding claiming that he was crying for help. Two eyewitnesses seeing Trayvon on top of a guy in a red jacket/sweater beating him. then the gunshot.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (3jGS1)

308 [If you run, and someone (non uniformed) continues to pursue you, and reasonable other avenues of protection, (Public space with lots of people, police etc) were not available *I* would feel threatened and use physical force to defend myself. I would be comfortable defending that decision as reasonable.] Isn't this why police are required to identify themselves, ie "stop! Police!" This guy thought he was a cowboy.

Posted by: Supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (/iaWb)

309 >>>Imagine if, however, the kid was there to do something insidious. The man who confronted him does not have a gun, and he is shot by a random burglar. The man dies.

That is nice for imagination land. But when you carry a gun, you have responsibilities, and you must be responsible for the actual outcomes, not the imaginary what if ones.

The very argument that you would *NOT* likely have taken the same course of action had you not had a gun, is actually an argument that you acted recklessly WITH your gun and therefore are guilty of a crime.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (0q2P7)

310 190 Ace, I'm betting we're gonna see some 'Sekrit Racist Friends' on the ol' AoSHQ now...

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 02:55 PM (MMC8r)

This is my fear. The outlook for heavy mobyism/StormFront assholes is about 80% with a chance of disappearing threads by Sunday.

Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (RD7QR)

311 Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 03:13 PM (eCnLg)

Jews don't count.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (nEUpB)

312 kallisto: "It's not just an issue of the MFM under-reporting or downright ignoring black hate crimes on white folk. They don't even care about the hundreds of Black children senselessly killed in cities across the nation. I guess as long as the perp is white, then it deserves attention."

I have to give director Spike Lee some credit here. I'm pretty sure our politics mix about as well as oil and water, but Lee has been behind some very good social commentary via film. He has tried to awaken the public to the scourge of Black-on-Black crime, but I wonder if it has had any tangible effect. It's like the gangsta rap street culture has stepped on his message and choked the life from it.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (eHIJJ)

313

A good reference is the brutal Christian/ Newsom murders a few years back that Michelle Malkin brought to light as as the story was absent from msm reporting. The crimes commited against these two young college students were the most brutal, heinous crimes that I can recall in recent memory. The story was typically absent from newspaper front pages and the airwaves as it was a black on white crime.

Posted by: mot at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (8Tn0o)

314 So President "Obviously The Police Acted Stupidly" didn't learn the first time? WAIT FOR THE INVESTIGATION. (Guess he's as completely incapable of controlling his big mouth as black-flacker Al Sharpton is.)

PS- to Lady in Black, comment #43: I'm with you on the lack of press outrage about the kid set on fire. Also I'm grinding my teeth at the TOTAL AVOIDANCE of coverage of all the various folks across the country who are pounced on by "groups" of curiously-unspecified "youths" while walking through the park, or cycling on the bike path; these poor victims wind up with shattered jaws or eye sockets, concussions, and other serious injuries which may well affect them for the rest of their lives. Not a word of sympathy, and certainly no mention of any "discussion that needs to happen about race". I spit on our MFMSM!

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (hq0VE)

315 313 All you can hear is "fucking ___." He could have said "coon," or could have said "fucking goons" or something else. Even Tuchesman couldn't say, and the sound engineer says it is impossible to know one way or another. That proves it, then!

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:15 AM (niZvt)

316 Never let a good-death-of-a-17-year-old go to waste

Posted by: MSNBC at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (8sCoq)

317 Barry: If I had a son he'd be a scrawny limped wristed thing on spring break right now with an army of secret service in tow spending tax payers money like there's no tomorrow.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (1Jaio)

318 Given what we think we know (and remember, the media has lied before): it appears that the kid was unarmed, the guy can't rely on self-defense to save his life.

Just being unarmed does not make you harmless. IF T clobbered Z from behind and was on top beating him then shooting him is self-defense isn't it.

This will be a busy thread to keep clean in any case. I bet some of the papers comments sections get pretty ugly.

Posted by: DaveA at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (TcY34)

319 It would not surprise me if Zimmerman called him a coon over the phone. Every hispanic I ever met was pretty racist. At least as racist as almost every black person I've ever heard speak.

Posted by: Jimmah at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (UpwlP)

320 Are you a pussy who gets beat up by 17 year olds?

A 17 year old is plenty capable of physical damage. In fact, probably more capable of same than a middle aged guy, in many circumstances.

I've seen some pretty big 17 year olds.

If this kid was 6'3" and a football player, I find that hard to square with him also being 140lbs. At 6'3", that'd be rail-freaking-thin. Like "count his ribs" thin. Hard to imagine a bean-pole like that playing football.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (8y9MW)

321 Jews don't count. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 03:15 PM (nEUpB) Then how the fuck do we control all them Banks?

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (eCnLg)

322 17 year old can be pretty big, they're basically full grown men. In 1 short year many of them will be in the military, to put things in perspective. Others will be college linebackers, etc. You may not want to admit it, but plenty of 17 year olds could kick your ass.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (/Mla1)

323 "One is that, alas, black on white crime is so common as to be not newsworthy, whereas the reverse is rare and hence, oddly, makes national news." Yes, and I've mentioned some of the genetic, biology-based reasons why this is so. Far-east Asian on whomever crime is even rarer, again for biological reasons.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 11:16 AM (NvI3l)

324 If you are not a cop and are carrying you shouldn't be looking for trouble.It's a big responibilty to carry a lethal weapon.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:17 AM (vd4t0)

325 313 "Zimmerman called him a fucking coon?" No, no, you idiots! Zimmerman said he was fucking a coon.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:17 AM (niZvt)

326
Zimmerman's 911 call is enough to put him away for at least manslaughter. The only reason to follow someone is if they're moving away from you. If you follow someone, while strapped, are told by authorities not to continue and that officers are enroute, you are in the wrong.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 03:08 PM (bwV72)

Thank you for showcasing your stupidity and ignorance of the known facts in the case.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:17 AM (7+pP9)

327 can we have a post about boobies now? we need a palate cleanser

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 11:17 AM (8sCoq)

328 bacon, beer, steak, guns, fast cars, maybe something along those lines

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 11:18 AM (8sCoq)

329 304 278 Fuck you,really?For what?Are you a pussy who gets beat up by 17 year olds?

No. Just a guy who acknowledges the basic human right to use lethal force to repel physical attack.

Quick -- how long does it take for a guy with a knife to close ten feet of ground and stab you?

More time than it takes to draw a pistol? Or less?

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:18 AM (KNtHw)

330 304 278 Fuck you,really?For what?Are you a pussy who gets beat up by 17 year olds?

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 03:13 PM (vd4t0)

Three of my four nephews were all well over six feet and weighed close to or over 200 pounds by the time they were seventeen. All played football; one played hockey. Trust me, they can take care of themselves.

Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 11:18 AM (T2/zQ)

331
http://tinyurl.com/7mglaka

Gavin asks what kind on name is Trayvon anyway?

Well, anybody?

Posted by: sTevo at March 23, 2012 11:18 AM (l2xT0)

332 Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 03:16 PM (eCnLg)

Damned if I know! But I want some of that action.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (nEUpB)

333 It's been reported that he was on the phone with a girl he knew and told her he was being followed by a crazy guy and he was going to try to run away. Posted by: Supercore23 at March 23, 2012 03:12 PM

Must be true. A gangbanger's girlfriend would NEVER lie, would she!

Come on, what 6-3 kid in a hoodie tells his girl he's afraid and he's going to run away?

Is she going to tell the police that Trayvon told her "I'm gonna bust a cap into this beaner!"

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (Y+DPZ)

334 old scotch, busty redheads, good field dogs- I'm just throwing things out there

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (8sCoq)

335 Yes, and I've mentioned some of the genetic, biology-based reasons why this is so. Far-east Asian on whomever crime is even rarer, again for biological reasons. Posted by: Random

Biological reasons?

Do tell.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (sbV1u)

336 >>> 336 If you are not a cop and are carrying you shouldn't be looking for trouble.It's a big responibilty to carry a lethal weapon.

No, it isn't. It's a right.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (KNtHw)

337 "Then how the fuck do we control all them Banks?" We don't fucking control all of the banks. Just the really big ones. And Wall Street. And the corporations. Except for Wal-Mart.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (IhUxK)

338 what this will all boil down to is an attempt to weaken Florida's self defense laws. it's tailor made for the gun ban lobbies Alinsky style tactics

Posted by: bannor, voting Sweet Meteor of Death 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (HEa5q)

339 Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 03:16 PM (NvI3l) Random, I just want to know: Are you honest enough to admit that if you were walking down an otherwise deserted street one dark night, and saw a group of black teens on one side of the street coming towards you, and a group of white teens on the other... you'd cross the street to be on the side with the white kids? Because the fact is, even blacks will admit to that.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:19 AM (niZvt)

340 coon is not an slur that is commonly used by people under the age of 70. I would guess you're hearing what you've been told it says.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 11:20 AM (A2cTV)

341 Great points to consider, Ace.

Posted by: Heralder at March 23, 2012 11:20 AM (/Mxso)

342 Damned if I know! But I want some of that action. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 03:19 PM (nEUpB) hey have you seen that New ( well new to me ) pancake type house on RT 17 South near the Verizon Store in Paramus? Heard anything about it?

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (eCnLg)

343 He was 6'3 but only 140 pounds.

Yeah, but he had football training. This is the secretive process by which a select few youths are turned into lethal killing machines. Zimmerman probably had no idea he was being lured into a classic football-inspired ambush.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (+lsX1)

344

314.....Zimmerman should have stuck to the always popular cock sucker and and left anything with "oon" in it out

Yep....or "dickhead". ....More easily identifiable consonants in that one too.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (4GgJq)

345 341 zimmerman doesn't chase him he doesn't get in a fight.What right did he have to chase a "suspect" ?He called the cops,that should have ended it.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (vd4t0)

346 Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 03:18 PM (KNtHw)

That's a trick question. Only evil teabagging racist clingers carry guns.

Real men carry purses from Europe.

[and the answer is quicker than you can draw a gun, unless you are lightning fast. The boundary is, if I recall correctly, 17 feet]

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (nEUpB)

347 the smell of fresh cut grass, pancakes, noodle salad

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (8sCoq)

348 [Thank you for showcasing your stupidity and ignorance of the known facts in the case.] How would you describe zimmermans 911 call then? The one where he acknowledges he is following the kid? And he's told that officers are on the way? And he's told not to follow the kid? Did I miss some important nugget of info there?

Posted by: Supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (/iaWb)

349 The reason this is such a huge shit storm to the national media is because they saw "Jeorje" when it was really "Whor-hey." Now it is too late to turn the Al Sharpton grievance theater around.

Posted by: Gulfkraken at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (WBfjO)

350 Also it's been established that he has black family members and friends. Highly doubtful he would be using slurs.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 11:21 AM (A2cTV)

351 meanwhile, Kim Kardashian has been "flour-bombed"

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (Dll6b)

352 When I first heard this story, I thought the CEO of Men's Wearhouse shot someone.

"You're gonna look good in a box. I guarantee it."

But that guy is George Zimmer. So all those potential one-liners, followed by "too soon?" must go unused.

Posted by: grognard, SMOD-Squad at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (NS2Mo)

353 349 A right has no responsibilities?

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (vd4t0)

354 Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 03:21 PM (eCnLg)

Yes. Both brats have eaten there, and both said that it's okay, but nothing special.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (nEUpB)

355 More time than it takes to draw a pistol? Or less?

At 10 feet I've always heard (from an NRA instructor, no less) that it's iffy, but smart money would be on the guy who had to draw his pistol instead trying to hold his guts in.

9' or less is no contest- knife guy wins.
15 ' or more is no contest- gun guy wins. Well, assuming he hits the assailant pretty quickly after pulling his gun.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (8y9MW)

356 Random thoughts? How many sons did Barry fail to sire given contraception? None; his sperm only make girls. Speaking of what a son would look like, ever notice how Barry resembles Stanley's dad (who visited black brothels weekly) more than he does Barak? The dominant skeletal genetic factors that Kenyan Barak Obama's children all display regardless of which mother, the "round head" as Barry put it, are not Barry's own features. None of which amounts to a hill of beans, let alone magic skittles, unicorns and hate crimes.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (lpWVn)

357 "Gavin asks what kind on name is Trayvon anyway?" I hate to sound like a racist, but let me give my take on this. I was sitting next to a woman several years ago. She told me that black women (usually single moms) name their kids after something they see on tv, or from the guy they are currently banging, or something else. Whites and Hispanics and Orientals name their kids after family; Jews name theirs after family that has died. Blacks name their kids after a plate of spaghetti if it sounds good. Listen next time for Tremicka, Trevaria Tonaricka, and LaHarriet.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:22 AM (IhUxK)

358 Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 03:22 PM (Dll6b)

Go for the wet spot!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (nEUpB)

359 I think this story should be given the exact number of column inches that was given to the white kid that was set on fire. In fact, Jake Tapper needs to ask the Presidebt if that burned whitey would look like his son too, since he is also white.

Posted by: Schwalbe: The Me-262© at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (UU0OF)

360 Note that the media keeps bringing the "Stand Your Ground" Law into this-- because they want it GONE. Meghan Kelly said this is not anywhere close to being an example to SYG, but of course the MFM will have you believe in Florida you can just shoot someone if you feel "duly threatened". I have heard several of them "wonder" aloud about this or just flat out say it over the past few days.

Posted by: ktgreat at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (TCTPY)

361 >>> "How would you describe zimmermans 911 call then? The one where he acknowledges he is following the kid? And he's told that officers are on the way? And he's told not to follow the kid? Did I miss some important nugget of info there?"

Yeah, your missing the part where free people don't take orders from cops.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (KNtHw)

362 "Random, I just want to know: Are you honest enough to admit that if you were walking down an otherwise deserted street one dark night, and saw a group of black teens on one side of the street coming towards you, and a group of white teens on the other... you'd cross the street to be on the side with the white kids?" Well it depends who I most wanted to fight.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (NvI3l)

363
I heard the tapes (at least as much as the radio guys have played and the bloggers have posted) and I really don't know what happened. Zimmerman didn't sound like an avenging angel, he sounded like a winded and scared man. That doesn't really mitigate either way though, does it? And without getting into the "blame the victim!!!" crap the MSM will conjure, I'd like to know why Trayvonn was suspended, was he a local troublemaker, etc. ....Related... .........Take a look at any of the freshmen playing in tonight's NCAA games, last year they were "17 year old kids". A lot of them could probably whip the shit out of any of us here, even if we're in a lot better shape than Zimmerman.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (HethX)

364 "He was 6'3 but only 140 pounds." Oh, YEAH? Well, I'm only 5 foot 8, but HLaH, IYKWIM, AITTYD.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (niZvt)

365 368 I carry a knife and know how to use it,but I wouldn't chase a suspicious person .

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (vd4t0)

366 puppies, backyard cheeseburgers, iced tea in the shade on a hot day

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (8sCoq)

367 Gavin asks what kind on name is Trayvon anyway? Well, anybody? Posted by: sTevo

So, anyway, if you think about it, "Trayvon" is not really that bad a name. I mean, it's Â“vonÂ”, which is good, and a Â“TrayÂ”' in front of it, which is also good. Trayvon , right?

When you consider the other choices, "Trayvon" is actually pretty refreshing.

Posted by: George Costanza at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (sbV1u)

368 I'll wager he wasn't 140 lbs as reported. Not if he is 6'3. That would be anorexic.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 11:23 AM (A2cTV)

369 Yes. Both brats have eaten there, and both said that it's okay, but nothing special. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 03:22 PM (nEUpB) Thanks I'll take that under advisement

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (eCnLg)

370

meanwhile, Kim Kardashian has been "flour-bombed"

Oh, that's just so they can find the hole.

Posted by: Jessica Simpson at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (NOwGM)

371 Well it depends who I most wanted to fight. Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 03:23 PM (NvI3l) Right, Tough Guy. Last fight you were in was with your Mom, about getting a job and finally moving out of her basement.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (niZvt)

372 Biological reasons?
Do tell.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 03:19 PM (sbV1u)

Don't encourage him. Or you'll find out more about random's worldview than you'd care to know.

Posted by: Mætenloch at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (+B3Nr)

373 Six degrees of racism. Produced by MSM.

Posted by: Temper Tantrum at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (AWmfW)

374 >>> "366 349 A right has no responsibilities?"

No.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (KNtHw)

375 Yeah, your missing the part where free people don't take orders from cops. Posted by: Phinn

Lemme know how that works for you at your next traffic stop.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 11:24 AM (sbV1u)

376 [Must be true. A gangbanger's girlfriend would NEVER lie, would she!] Since when does black = gangbanger. Also, according to the report at least, the police confirmed that the call was placed. Obviously there is no recording though. Fuck, you guys asked why he didn't call 911 and then, when told why, say shitlike that. Did you even want an answer or what?

Posted by: Supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:25 AM (/iaWb)

377
>>>If you are not a cop and are carrying you shouldn't be looking for trouble.It's a big responibilty to carry a lethal weapon.
>>>No, it isn't. It's a right.

Oh that is the most STUPID thing I have seen on this thread yet. Rights come with responsibility idiot. The irresponsible CANNOT BE FREE. And while you have a right to bear arms, CHOOSING TO ACTUALLY DO SO, puts a lot of responsibility on you.

Divorce yourself of that attitude towards dangerous weapons right now, otherwise you are a walking posterboy for why they should be banned.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:25 AM (0q2P7)

378 Biological reasons?

Do tell.

--

Lobotomy at birth?

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:25 AM (lpWVn)

379 So far Rush and Jeb Bush have been implicated by the left, am I missing anyone else?

Posted by: Dr Spank at March 23, 2012 11:25 AM (Sh42X)

380 This happend a month ago? Anyone know when exactly, I can't find it.

Posted by: Javems at March 23, 2012 11:25 AM (nTgAI)

381 "zimmerman doesn't chase him he doesn't get in a fight.What right did he have to chase a "suspect" ?He called the cops,that should have ended it." He was the neighborhood watch captain. He has seen black men in hoodies before, and he called the cops and none of them were caught. He said on the tape, "They always get away." This time this one - he thought it was another suspect - wasn't going to get away. I don't blame the man at all. He was defending the property of himself and his neighbors. He is sick and tired of people taking stuff they don't own and didn't work to get. And now he is getting the shits for doing his job.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (IhUxK)

382 Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 03:01 PM (nj1bB)

Realtalk over.

Posted by: Hinks at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (cEdZt)

383 391 I think he's a moby,look at his comments.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (vd4t0)

384 Don't encourage him. Or you'll find out more about random's worldview than you'd care to know. Posted by: MÃ¦tenloch

Maet, I'm going for the full banhammer from Ace due to racism.

It's worth a shot...for the good of all of us.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (sbV1u)

385

If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. So vote for me. Whitey is trying to kill me. Whitey is tying to kill you. Vote for me stop whitey and gets some nifty nail polish too.

Posted by: Barnak the Hurrible at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (8ieXv)

386 382 I'll wager he wasn't 140 lbs as reported. Not if he is 6'3. That would be anorexic. Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 03:23 PM (A2cTV) Right now, the MSM's in a "narrative" feeding frenzy, seeing this as somehow a way to help Obama. I would trust absolutely NOTHING the MSM has to say about this case whatsoever at this time.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (niZvt)

387 >>Note that the media keeps bringing the "Stand Your Ground" Law into this-- because they want it GONE.

The other reason the kid set on fire in KC gets no airtime: nothing in the Bill of Rights about fire or accelerants. (The eco-fascists have already outlawed fire in some cities and states; the war on gasoline we talked about already today.)

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (ZKzrr)

388 'This happend a month ago? Anyone know when exactly, I can't find it." February 23rd.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (IhUxK)

389 Yeah, but he had football training

I don't know. Like I said: it's hard for me to square 6'3" 140 lbs w/ Football player.

I'm not exactly a lightweight, but I'm not really overweight either (so says my doctor). I'm just under 6' and weigh in at between 185 & 190. Someone about 4 inches taller than me should probably weigh in at the 210 mark to be "average." To be actively lighter than me (by 45 to 50 lbs) means he had to be super thin.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (8y9MW)

390 >>>Yeah, your missing the part where free people don't take orders from cops.

If a cop orders you to stop you have to do so. You can sue him later if he didn't have sufficient cause.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:26 AM (0q2P7)

391 371-Incedibly poor taste, man.

Posted by: Heralder at March 23, 2012 11:27 AM (/Mxso)

392 meanwhile, Kim Kardashian has been "flour-bombed"

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 03:22 PM (Dll6b)

************

Hmmmm, I've never heard bukkake referred to as flour-bombing before.

Posted by: Pimpbot 5000 at March 23, 2012 11:27 AM (ggRof)

393 From what I have heard here about the case ( which I am sure is more than obama knows ) this guy Zimmerman is fucked. He may never get convicted of anything but he is gonna be wrung thru both the State and then you can bet Federal Court system till he and 5 generations of his in the future are bankrupt and destroyed.

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:27 AM (eCnLg)

394 Whites and Hispanics and Orientals name their kids after family; Jews name theirs after family that has died. Blacks name their kids after a plate of spaghetti if it sounds good.

Listen next time for Tremicka, Trevaria Tonaricka, and LaHarriet.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 03:22 PM (IhUxK)

This phenomenon is very recent, coinciding with the upswing in illegitimate births in the last 40 years. Most black Americans older than that have more traditionally-European given names.

Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 11:27 AM (T2/zQ)

395 "I'll wager he wasn't 140 lbs as reported. Not if he is 6'3. That would be anorexic."

My brother is 6'4, and positively anorexic, a complete bean pole, at 201lbs.

Posted by: Gulfkraken at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (WBfjO)

396 Guess Zimmerman missed the inauguration memo about yellow being mellow and white being right.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (Fz7+s)

397 Not unusual for a 17 year olds body not to catch up with their height.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (vd4t0)

398

342@295

Excellent, but you miss the main point. This isn't about Trayvon, it's about ginning up the Black support for my campaign.

Actully, you miss the point. It's not about ginning up Black support (thats what African Americans for Obama is for)...it's about recapturing the "white guilt" vote that we've lost since 2008.

That's one of the reasons why "white hispanic" is so important to the narrative.

Just think of all the squishy independents that are now giving us a second, emotion-driven look. And ignore the fact that we are so desperate that we are resorting to this tactic.

Posted by: David Axelrodent at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (3Tc9H)

399 Blacks name their kids after a plate of spaghetti if it sounds good.

As an African American I must tell you that you, sir, are a racist!

Posted by: Sheff Boyarday Spaygettayohs Martin at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (VMcoS)

400

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 03:11 PM (0q2P7)

so the person who "feels" threatened has more latitude in using physical force than a person getting his ass kicked?

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (xAq1C)

401 Meh, sounds like he will end up with involuntary manslaughter, why would he get out of the car, I don't know of many gated suburbs where you need to leave the street to see everything thats going on. Why not just yell at him from the car?

bacon, beer, steak, guns, fast cars, maybe something along those lines

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 03:18 PM (8sCoq)

Agreed

Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 23, 2012 11:28 AM (tKFT6)

402

In light of the recent revelations of what has been going on with the N'Orleans Saints....

Has there ever been any evidence that this sort of thing is going on at High Schools too. ....Players being trained to inflict maximum damage, on purpose?

Posted by: Yeah, I went there... at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (4GgJq)

403

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 03:23 PM (niZvt)

how YOU doon?

Posted by: kallisto at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (jm/9g)

404 "So far Rush and Jeb Bush have been implicated by the left, am I missing anyone else?" Karen Finney on MSDNC, the Conga Line of Imbeciles, says that Rush, Jeb Bush, Gingrich, Santorum, and a host of other people are all to blame for this. Next up: Obama will blame Ronald Reagan, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Calvin Coolidge, and perhaps William McKinley ("Damn Billy started this by NOT wrestling the gun from Czolgosz in 1901!").

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (IhUxK)

405 Dispatchers aren't cops. Not usually, anyway.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (/Mla1)

406 If the shooter = white/hispanic gun crazed racist, then black = gangbanger.

Seems fair to me.

I think what the MSM has their panties in a wad about is the story had a happy ending this time.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (y0VOX)

407 This is a damned stupid thing for the President or any of the Rpublican candidates to comment on. Have they learned nothing from the President's "Beer Summit" fiasco? Better to pass on any press questoin with a comment about it being an on going investigation. Too many unkowns. Too many questions. Too many invlated tales. Too many idiots jumping to conclusions.

Posted by: joated at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (NMoRX)

408 This phenomenon is very recent, coinciding with the upswing in illegitimate births in the last 40 years. Most black Americans older than that have more traditionally-European given names. Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 03:27 PM (T2/zQ) I noticed they like to come up with names like "Sasha" and "Tonya." Is that some kind of Black Russian thing?

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (niZvt)

409 What does Martin see as Zimmerman approaches him? Does Zimmerman walk up to him and say "hi, my name is George Zimmerman"? No, he sees a 20 something Hispanic male approaching him aggressively. In the gang world Martin lives in, he sees a ------ from another gang, and he's going to mess him up.

Remember, Zimmerman wasn't dressed up in some Barney Fife rent-a-cop uniform

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (Y+DPZ)

410 Mot- 325- Isn't that mess open again because the junkie judge ruled on the case?

Posted by: Gulfkraken at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (WBfjO)

411 Barry: If I had a son he'd look like a white guy in black face and he'd be doing skits at schools with Tom Hanks.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at March 23, 2012 11:29 AM (1Jaio)

412 Where in the transits of the 911 call was he ordered not to follow Martin?

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 11:30 AM (A2cTV)

413 On a tape recording....."coon" and "goon" sound an awful lot alike.

It sounded like he said "octoroon" which is kind of funny because of the obscurity, but still pretty racist.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 11:30 AM (+lsX1)

414 No, it isn't. It's a right.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 03:19 PM (KNtHw)

----------------------------------------------------------

'scuse me? It's a right, but there are some very big responsibilities that go along with that right.

Posted by: antisocialist at March 23, 2012 11:30 AM (j/nZn)

415

It looks like the Trayvon Shooting case is going to be quite the national watershed case ...

I note that Drudge, at this writing has photos of Zimmerman and of Trayvon up.

As BTH comments above, Zimmerman is hardly mistakeable for the master race. My suspicion is that, given the ethnic populations of of Florida, he would not immediately be assumed to be of European descent; there would be questions, and the MSM would know ... immediately. That the HuffPo prints (here: tinyurl.com/7omq98z) that Zimmermann is white:

"But last month's shooting death of Trayvon Martin -- an unarmed black teenager who police said was shot by a white neighborhood watch captain -- has reopened old wounds. The police have not arrested George Zimmerman, 28, who is white, ... "

... and it's a clear case of media incompetence, and maybe malpractice.

The photo of Trayvon is interesting, in that it is NOT like any that HuffPo displays of Trayvon (here: tinyurl.com/7omq98z). As expected, the HuffPo is ... guiding ... its readers to Approved Truth. The bulk of the photos are of Trayvon as a child, someone who would likely obey authority. But the photo of Trayvon on Drudge is not that of a child, not someone who would very likely immediately respect or obey authority ... and, at 17, 6'2+, an athlete (a football player), not someone who's threats should be taken lightly.

There are comments here and many other places about "hoodies". Setting aside the question, for later, of having the right (or not) to wear a hoodie, it's reasonably clear from virtually all comments that all commenters recognize that hoodies are a strong indicator, an identifier, an advertisement ... of the weared being being someone who is more likely to have violent/criminal tendancies. The wearer might not, in fact, have violent/criminal tendancies ... but the wearer chooses to wear an advertisement ... in public.

There are other clothing items that are strong indicators, identifiers, advertisements, and everyone knows that they should be taken seriously.

I'll wait to comment on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. I think Zimmerman screwed up, many times, and badly. It will affect all of us, and, unless some of the usual race hustlers and poverty pimps implode on national TV, probably not for the better.

Posted by: Arbalest at March 23, 2012 11:30 AM (OlbL0)

416 And he's told not to follow the kid?

He wasn't told not to follow. Read the furnished links.

The dispatcher asked "Are you following him," he said, "yes," and the dispatcher said "You don't need to do that."

If you then read the Chief's Q&A, he expounds that such advice was not a legal order, and Zimmerman was breaking no law by continuing pursuit.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:30 AM (8y9MW)

417 "As an African American I must tell you that you, sir, are a racist!" Yeah, yeah, yeah. BTW, does anyone know how Italians came to be called "Wops"? They showed up at immigration offices without proper papers. WITH OUT PAPERS. WOPS. And Jews came to be called "kykes" because their papers always had a circle on them; "kykel" is Hebrew for "circle." So, I must be a kyke.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:31 AM (IhUxK)

418 Next up: Obama will blame Ronald Reagan, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Calvin Coolidge, and perhaps William McKinley ("Damn Billy started this by NOT wrestling the gun from Czolgosz in 1901!"). Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 03:29 PM

Rutherford B Hayes doesn't have clean hands on this either!

Posted by: King Barry the Historian at March 23, 2012 11:31 AM (Y+DPZ)

419 If a cop orders you to stop you have to do so. You can sue him later if he didn't have sufficient cause.Posted by:MikeTheMoose

First, are 9/11 operators actual sworn officers? Honest question, I really don't know.

Second, cops have no duty to protect except in very limited circumstances, so lawsuit? Nope!

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] at March 23, 2012 11:31 AM (WdKsY)

420

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 03:23 PM (KNtHw)

good point, and it wasnt even a cop. it was a dispatcher. remember a couple of months ago when the mom in oklahoma shot the guy trying to break into here house, what advice did they dispatcher give in that case?? a dispatcher is a glorified phone operator.

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 11:31 AM (xAq1C)

421 This is a damned stupid thing for the President or any of the Rpublican candidates to comment on. Have they learned nothing from the President's "Beer Summit" fiasco?

Yes, Obama did learn. He gets to drop the poison pill and march on like it never happened.

He is going to smugly sit back and let farakhan and sharpton do his dirty work on this one.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 11:31 AM (y0VOX)

422 This is a damned stupid thing for the President or any of the Rpublican candidatesto comment on. Have they learned nothing from the President's "Beer Summit" fiasco?

I think I've already establish that Obama doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Posted by: The American Economy at March 23, 2012 11:32 AM (sbV1u)

423 Hannity just played Sharpton talking to a crowd, it sounded like a lynch mob.

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 11:32 AM (oZfic)

424 It sounded like he said "octoroon" which is kind of funny because of the obscurity, but still pretty racist.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at March 23, 2012 03:30 PM (+lsX1)

**********

There's an octoroon? Crap, Lana almost killed me when I said "quadroon"!

Posted by: Sterling Archer at March 23, 2012 11:33 AM (ggRof)

425 Every teen ager in my very white upper middle class neighborhood wears hoodies.Pre teens too.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:33 AM (vd4t0)

426 347 old scotch, busty redheads, good field dogs- I'm just throwing things out there

Posted by: Jones in CO at March 23, 2012 03:19 PM (8sCoq)

How about a post about a busty redhead drinking scotch while she trains her good field dog? I've got a feeling we're going to need some distractions soon.

Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 11:33 AM (RD7QR)

427 Javems, here is ABC News' timeline (their spin, not mine): Below is a timeline of events: Feb. 26: Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old Florida high school student, is found shot and killed, in Sanford, Fla., a community north of Orlando. Several eyewitnesses report to police that they heard a scuffle, then a cry for help, and then a gunshot. According to the Sanford police report, George Zimmerman, 28, a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, is found armed with a handgun, standing over Martin. He has a bloody nose and a wound in the back of his head. Martin is unresponsive and pronounced dead at the scene. He has no weapons on him, only a pack of Skittles and a bottle of iced tea. Zimmerman tells police he killed Martin in self defense. Taking him at his word, police do not arrest him, nor administer a drug or alcohol test. They also did not run a background check. March 9: Trayvon MartinÂ’s family demands that police release the 911 tapes or make an arrest nearly one month after Martin was killed. Police declined to comment at the time, but told ABC News the tapes would be released the following week. March 12: ABC News uncovers questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of Martin, including the alleged Â“correctionÂ” of at least one eyewitnessÂ’ account. Sanford Police Chief Billy Lee said there is no evidence to dispute ZimmermanÂ’s assertion that he shot Martin out of self-defense. March 16: Police recordings made the night Zimmerman allegedly shot and killed Martin sent the boyÂ’s mother screaming from the room and prompted his father to declare, Â“He killed my son,Â” a family representative tells ABC News. ABC News affiliate WFTV publishes excerpts from the 911 calls. One of several petitions for ZimmermanÂ’s arrest has garnered more than 250,000 signatures on a change.org site, and at one point signatures were pouring in at the rate of 10,000 an hour, according to the website. March 18: MartinÂ’s family asks Attorney General Eric Holder and the FBI to get involved in the investigation of their sonÂ’s death. March 19: A 16-year-old girl tells Benjamin Crump, the Martin familyÂ’s attorney, about the last moments of MartinÂ’s life, ABC News is there exclusively. Martin was on the phone with her when George Zimmerman began following him. She recounted that she told Martin to run, then she heard some pushing, then the line went dead.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:33 AM (jUytm)

428 The first rule of carrying CCW is stay the hell out of trouble. Don't engage in sketchy behavior, don't interact with sketchy people, and don't go into sketchy places. Period. If anything, carrying that weapon places INCREASED contraints on what kind of behavior you can engage in, rather than provide you with greater leeway. Here's the deal, the CCW "social contract"--if you CCW competently, you have the ability to control your immediate environment and if necessary use lethal force to stop anyone who presents an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm to you or those you have a duty to protect. In exchange for that rather remarkable power, you have the responsibility to use your f*cking head and stay the hell out of avoidable trouble. The facts may yet reveal that Zimmerman acted as would a reasonable and prudent person in his circumstances, and was somehow backed into this confrontation that ended with his use of lethal force. But it certainly seems as if better decision-making could have resulted in a more optimal outcome for everyone involved.

Posted by: Boston12GS at March 23, 2012 11:33 AM (aVw1v)

429 BTW, does anyone know how Italians came to be called "Wops"?

They showed up at immigration offices without proper papers.

WITH OUT PAPERS. WOPS.

And Jews came to be called "kykes" because their papers always had a circle on them; "kykel" is Hebrew for "circle."

Know how obama got to be known as a socialist asshole?

Its because he is a socialist asshole.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 11:34 AM (y0VOX)

430

"This race hustling movement will merge will OWS and be nationwide and violent in time for the conventions."

So? In 1968 that led to Nixon and the start of the conservative swing. As a matter of fact, Reagan made his national rep standing up against the pro-Viet Cong anti-war protestors.

As I said, let them hustle.

Posted by: Bob from Ohio at March 23, 2012 11:34 AM (ROFkf)

431 why did the 'immigration papers' for Jews coming to America 'always have a circle on them'?

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:34 AM (Dll6b)

432 Please go to the link at #25 and read the FAQ letter. Zimmerman says that he lost site of the kid and was returning to his truck when he was attacked by Trayvon. This all was confirmed by the witness statements. That's why they didn't arrest him.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:34 AM (3jGS1)

433 Some 911 operators are indeed officers. Depends.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:34 AM (jUytm)

434 Hannity just played Sharpton talking to a crowd, it sounded like a lynch mob. Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 03:32 PM (oZfic) It's what Al Sharpy Sharpton does best after all

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (eCnLg)

435 when i get to the bottom i go back to the top of the slide...

Posted by: charlie manson at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (YJdgp)

436 >>>so the person who "feels" threatened has more latitude in using physical force than a person getting his ass kicked?

That's not the standard. The standard is if a reasonable person would feel threatened. And if you do something that would make a reasonable person feel threatened, yes you are straying into territory where depending on the situation (Whether or not they can find some other way to protect themselves) you could find yourself with very little latitude to legally use force to protect yourself.

The correct answer here is when you get good indication that someone else feels threatened by what you are doing. BACK THE FUCK OFF.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (0q2P7)

437 "March 19: A 16-year-old girl tells Benjamin Crump, the Martin familyÂ’s attorney, about the last moments of MartinÂ’s life." I have a real question on this. The shooting happened February 23rd, and yet she doesn't come forward for 3+ weeks? Is this a tad bit suspicious? It is to me.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (IhUxK)

438

@429

My very Caucasian boyfriend and somewhat Caucasian brother both wear hoodies - and they're 51. Granted, BF doesn't look too threatening with his, but my bro tends to look shady at times and I have been known to tell him to pull down his hood in public - for fear of him being profiled.

In these parts, convenience store robberies have escalated, and the perps often wear hoodies. But then my bank also has a pic posted of a robber who was caught on the security camera, he is as white as the driven snow, no hoodie. (I don't believe hoodies are a solid indicator, but local law enforcement seems to, that's why I counsel my brother to keep a low profile.)

Posted by: kallisto at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (jm/9g)

439 Where my octaroons at?

Posted by: D'Marcus at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (/Mla1)

440 312. The word "DESERVE" is used completely out of context, as if each person has the "right" to execute another. Everyone lays it on thick with heinous contempt and vitriol, even when advertising merchandise that you deserve. The misappropriated "Deserve" vigilante murder seems a hate crime common factor; and btw, no one's reporting Zimmerman having announced "Deserve!" after shooting Martin.

Deserve's got nothing to do with it. -- Unforgiven

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (lpWVn)

441 I noticed they like to come up with names like "Sasha" and "Tonya." Is that some kind of Black Russian thing?

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 03:29 PM (niZvt)

Well, if the names are Russian, that means that "they" didn't come up with them.

I don't think that most Americans know that Sasha is actually a man's name...a diminutive for Alexander.

Posted by: baldilocks at March 23, 2012 11:35 AM (T2/zQ)

442

; margin: 0in 0in 12pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">285>>> Zimmerman called him a fucking coon???

He did. that's on the tape. Doesn't seem like it could be anything else.

But that doesn't answer the question either. It does suggest he may have been pre-inclined to suspect the guy, or what some Street Justice.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 03:09 PM (nj1bB)

No, he didnÂ’t. That was the interpretation some people had listening to the tape, but there are other interpretations just as much or more likely.

LetÂ’s stick to facts.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 11:36 AM (FdndL)

443 "Hannity just played Sharpton talking to a crowd, it sounded like a lynch mob." And Calypso Louis Farrakhan, the Human Cancer, is saying that there will be "retaliation" for Martin's murder. If I were a white man near a black neighborhood, I would stay clear and arm myself appropriately.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:36 AM (IhUxK)

444 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BTW, does anyone know how Italians came to be called "Wops"?

Pirelli had a short-lived tire line called the 'Dago 500'. Dago in the rain, dago in the snow, and when dago flat, dago 'wopwopwopwopwop'.

Posted by: Sheff Boyarday Spaygettayohs Martin at March 23, 2012 11:36 AM (VMcoS)

445 Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 03:25 PM (0q2P7)

Head over to Dedicated Tenther's blog for more on this question...but I think that rights are immutable. They are independent of the responsibility with which they are wielded.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:37 AM (nEUpB)

446

@445:

not all immigrants at the time were literate, some could not write their name.

Posted by: kallisto at March 23, 2012 11:37 AM (jm/9g)

447 The sad fact is that no one will ever truly know what happened except for the players involved, and now that the race pimps are involved anything Zimmerman says will be discounted. Another sad fact is that this is now a "racial" crime and it will lead to more killings much like Sharptons Freddies Fashion Mart crap. I am truly sad for my country.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at March 23, 2012 11:37 AM (jucos)

448

It would be nice if an actual NEWS agency reported the facts.

The area that the incident occurred in is a complex of attached condos. There are a series of narrow Â“alleysÂ” between the individual blocks of units. According to the police report, TreyvonÂ’s body was in one of these alleys.

It would have been impossible for Zimmerman to follow Treyvon while in his car.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 11:38 AM (FdndL)

449
What right did he have to chase a "suspect" ?He called the cops,that should have ended it.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 03:21 PM (vd4t0)

First of all, chucklehead, he wasn't "chasing" Martin -- he was following him.

Second, that is perfectly legal.

Thirdly, he was not "ordered" to stop:

...the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman Â“are you following
himÂ”. Zimmerman replied, Â“yesÂ”. The call taker stated Â“you donÂ’t need to do thatÂ”. The call takerÂ’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. ZimmermanÂ’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

And fourthly it appears Martin initiated the confrontation (see above).

You really need to buy a clue because you certainly don't have one.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:38 AM (7+pP9)

450

MSNBC analyst and Democratic strategist Karen Finney disgustingly smeared Rush Limbaugh and several Republican presidential candidates on Thursday, charging that the racist hate of these conservatives had Â“lethal consequencesÂ” in the case of Trayvon Martin, an African American teen shot in Florida.

After decrying Â“bigotry and stereotypes tak[ing] over our better judgment,Â” Finney sneeringly insisted that when Â“Rush Limbaugh calls a presidential candidate, Senator Barack Obama, a magic negroÂ…In the case of Trayvon, those festering stereotypes had lethal consequences.Â”

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at March 23, 2012 11:38 AM (e8kgV)

451 Wait....MSNBC didn't blame Palin?? They are slipping. Or Mitt?? I can't believe no Mitt. He's such a white Mc White-whitie---clearly he played a hand.

Posted by: ktgreat at March 23, 2012 11:39 AM (TCTPY)

452 460, I know that, but why did Jewish papers 'always have a circle'?

People who cannot write usually make an X or variation of a cross as their 'mark' or signature

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:39 AM (Dll6b)

453 Know how obama got to be known as a socialist asshole? Its because he is a socialist asshole. Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 03:34 PM (y0VOX) Yup. That would do it.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:39 AM (niZvt)

454 >>This phenomenon is very recent, coinciding with the upswing in illegitimate births in the last 40 years.

Baby LaToya could be named after her grandmother, for all the casual observer knows.

Y'all should see some of the stupid names the (white) kids of my high school classmates are giving their illegitimate kids. It's an act of defiance, like a neck tattoo.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 11:39 AM (ZKzrr)

455 The wit said Martin was straddling Zimmerman punching him in the face. ****Was that the position Martin was in when he was shot? Where's that autopsy report? Seems rather strange that they have not released that info as to where Martin was when he was shot. Help me out here, Ace!

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 11:39 AM (kqXHe)

456 "ZimmermanÂ’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon." If that is what he told the police when the shooting happened, then the grand jury only indicts based on fear, not on facts.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:40 AM (IhUxK)

457 Phinn - 10' generally gun loses. Although thats not taking into account a hammerless revolver capable of pocket firing.

Posted by: Jean at March 23, 2012 11:40 AM (WkuV6)

458 463 I never said anything about himbeing ordered to stop.Someone else used that word..

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:40 AM (vd4t0)

459

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">378"He was 6'3 but only 140 pounds."

Oh, YEAH?

Well, I'm only 5 foot 8, but HLaH, IYKWIM, AITTYD.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 03:23 PM (niZvt)

According to the police report, Treyvon was 6 foot, 160 lbs.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 11:40 AM (FdndL)

460 and try to find me any European Jews who could not write, even in the late 1800s

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:40 AM (Dll6b)

461 "He was 6'3 but only 140 pounds."
--
I think the police report says 160 pounds whatever that is worth.

Posted by: RioBravo at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (eEfYn)

462

You mean a hispanic kid.<<<

No, a white kid. I'm not Hispanic, so that would make me racist. Godamn, why you darkies always tryin to bamboozle the White Man?

I ain't fallin fer it.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (FEqS6)

463 On one of the tapes, Zimmerman can be clearly heard to say "Take that you Obama loving scum" and "Rush Limbaugh is a God."

Posted by: Al Sharpton at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (Sh42X)

464 Excuse me, but your typical 17 year old male isn't the whispy girly boy from the cast of Glee

Older inmates at maximum security prisons have talked about how young killers under 18 lack humanity in their eyes and scare the living shit out of them.

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (Y+DPZ)

465 Funny how Finney deliberately leaves out the LAT connection to Rush's magic negro.

Liberals - the skin of a human stuffed with a turd.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (y0VOX)

466 Stormfront must be a ghost town this afternoon. All these new edgy posters.

Posted by: nickless at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (X7aC8)

467 If it went down differently than I've seen it reported than my opinion will change.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:41 AM (vd4t0)

468 According to the police report, Treyvon was 6 foot, 160 lbs.

That's a little more believable. That would still make him on the light side, but I could believe that and still believe he played football. Maybe as a second string receiver or CB/Safety.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (8y9MW)

469 "Was that the position Martin was in when he was shot?" I heard he was shot once in the chest. If he was on top of Zimmerman, facing him, that would be consistent. Now, if the shot was in the back - then Zimmerman is finished. Finito. Done. There is a reason why the police didn't arrest him. The bloody nose and head and the possible chest shot all fit the story he told them.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (IhUxK)

470 The most telling thing about this whole story is when the libs decided to make this a national case.

It's been going on for a month. I originally thought the usual suspects were leaving it alone because Zimmy is Hispanic. But doing it now overshadows the ObamaCare hearings that are getting fired up on Monday, and are bound to smoke Nearo's approval ratings. It also may be in response to the various racist stuff coming out of libs' mouths this week, but more likely it's ObamaCare.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (Fz7+s)

471 Schenck v United States 1919 Justice Holmes: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." You right to speech ends at a certain point, e.g., you do something irresponsible such as endangering lives.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (jUytm)

472 it was probably mentioned above but deserves repeating, Zimmerman is hispanic, multi-cultural background, with black family members and friends.

that is going to be a problem with the MFM meme.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (SuBE0)

473

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 03:34 PM (jUytm)

didnt you post tthe link to the PD's investigation? read the faq form the city manager,

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?

t will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman Â“are you following himÂ”. Zimmerman replied, Â“yesÂ”. The call taker stated Â“you donÂ’t need to do thatÂ”. The call takerÂ’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. ZimmermanÂ’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (xAq1C)

474

Given the MSM's fetish for showing 'lil Travon's picture as a 12 year old, I'd take the report of him weighing 140lbs with a bigass equine saltblock.

As to grown-up men being pussies if they can't handle a 17 year old with their fists: Seriously. What planet have you been on for the last...forever? That describes a heaping shitload of violent crime in this country. 17 year olds, for the most part, have all or more of the physical strength of an adult and almost none of the maturity and judgement.

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (4I3Uo)

475 Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 03:38 PM (7+pP9)

At least someone read the police report.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 03:38 PM (FdndL)

He was not found in an alley, he was in the grass. The same grass that was on Zimmerman's back as he was being beaten (see the official police report in #25)

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (3jGS1)

476 >>>Zimmerman says that he lost site of the kid and was returning to his truck when he was attacked by Trayvon. This all was confirmed by the witness statements.

I didn't see anything saying the witnesses indicated he clearly broke pursuit and was returning to his truck. But he might have been. If he had been doing that, it would (in my opinion) mitigate though not eliminate his criminal responsibility, down to possibly man 2.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (0q2P7)

477 I have problems with all the doctoring they are doing with the tape for me to accept it as truth. Nor do I care what he called him earlier. I've been called every fucking racist name in the book. Big deal. If he was standing over the guy screaming fucking coon and shooting him, I might feel differently. But, he wasn't.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 11:42 AM (kqXHe)

478 "Liberals - the skin of a human stuffed with a turd." Why in the name of all that is Holy would you denigrate a turd by comparing it to a liberal? What is this world coming to?

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:43 AM (IhUxK)

479 6'3", 160 lbs is not a bad build for a 17 year old athlete. Wide receiver? Small forward in a Rec league? Those guys aren't as scrawny as the numbers say, especially at 17.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 23, 2012 11:43 AM (HethX)

480 >>In the case of Trayvon, those festering stereotypes had lethal consequences.

If Trayvon was fulfilling the "magic negro" stereotype, his appearance would have gotten Zimmerman the job and the girl.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 11:43 AM (ZKzrr)

481 Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 03:40 PM (Dll6b)

Of we could all read. How else do you think we ran the world?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (nEUpB)

482 Reports keep saying "gated community." It's a crappy apartment complex with a sky-high crime rate the police didn't do anything about. Zimmerman made a lot of mistakes but that doesn't make him criminally culpable. You have a right to approach someone in a non-violent way. If the person reacts violently you have a right to self-defense. If the eyewitness is correct that Zimmerman had his back turned to Martin and was going back to his car, then he is unquestionably innocent. But I wasn't there. Zimmerman will be crucified whether he is innocent or not though. I think Ace is selling the double standard here short, because it's not just about unfair storylines. Suppressing the truth about crime means that less is done about it, and there are more victims in the future. It is a very serious problem.

Posted by: dlj at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (rIQ+1)

483 And, although it pains the Chicago honkie hood in me to admit it, nobody gets to pick on black people's name choices in a suburban world overrun with Conors, Griffins, Taybolds, Jadens, Satchels, etc. What the hell was wrong with naming the kid Ralph????

And, by the way, get offa my lawn!

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (VMcoS)

484 How does something go from bad to worse to holy shit: Let obama put his 2 cents in

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (eCnLg)

485 The brutal truth of race in American is this: A black man is far safer walking in a white neighborhood, than a white man is in a black neighborhood. Put a black man in North Platte, Nebraska and a white man in Harlem and gage the life expectancy of each.

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (JfvbF)

486 See, I feel that any teenaged male, whether he be black, white or hispanic would have been followed by Zimmerman. I think the problem is more with how young males are perceived than what color the males are.

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (oZfic)

487 If the version where Z was going back to his truck and was jumped is correct that is a totally different story.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:44 AM (vd4t0)

488

Sharpton, Jackson and crew are the first to complain about MSM focus on women like Chandra Levy and Natalee Holloway and scream that if they were minority women, the stories would be ignored.

Well, I suspect this story would be a big nothingburger if the kid had been white.

These guys really are shameless when it comes to stirring up the masses, particularly on the issue of race. They have no interest in making racial division a thing of the past. They thrive on it.

Despicable.

Posted by: Dumb low-info squishy moderate independent at March 23, 2012 11:45 AM (59JAw)

489 Of we could all read. How else do you think we ran the world?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 03:44 PM (nEUpB)

===so, do YOU know the Secret of the Circle? My B.S. meter self-activated

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:45 AM (Dll6b)

490

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 03:35 PM (0q2P7)

but not in a state that has a "stand your ground" law. and you assume a lot, that zimmerman knew martin felt threatened by him and should have expected to be attacked physically. you seem to believe that zimmerman's actions forfeit his right to defend himself even if the stand your ground law doesnt apply. after all he was on the ground getting his ass kicked. he didnt have the luxury of retreating. at that point im betting he felt a lot more threatened than martin did.

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (xAq1C)

491

"I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters, particularly, to not let their young children go out wearing hoodies. I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon MartinÂ’s death as George Zimmerman was."

-Geraldo Rivera

The Rican goes over the edge here: http://tinyurl.com/6rue3ce

Posted by: Doctor Fish at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (TkGkA)

492 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 03:44 PM (nEUpB)

But clearly some of us can't write.

of= of course

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (nEUpB)

493 If the version where Z was going back to his truck and was jumped is correct that is a totally different story.

And this (well, not this specifically, but the idea behind it) is what some of us are saying.

There are several explanations which require no criminal conduct on anyone's part.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (8y9MW)

494 I didn't see anything saying the witnesses indicated he clearly broke pursuit and was returning to his truck. But he might have been. If he had been doing that, it would (in my opinion) mitigate though not eliminate his criminal responsibility, down to possibly man 2.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 03:42 PM (0q2P7)

It's in the FAQ letter from the link in #25. It's what the police claimed that Zimmerman said. Shot was in the chest. Read the initial report.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (3jGS1)

495 Barry: If I had a son he'd be banging Sandra Fluke and wouldn't pay for any of the contraception.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at March 23, 2012 11:46 AM (1Jaio)

496

@474

It was recounted to me that the "x" had too much of the appearance of a Christian cross, that's why they made their mark with a circle.

Posted by: kallisto at March 23, 2012 11:47 AM (jm/9g)

497

You can have my hoodie when you pull it from my cold, dead, extremely rich head.

Posted by: Bill Belichick at March 23, 2012 11:47 AM (/Mla1)

498 Okay, the police report has Martin as 6' and 160 lbs. Zimmerman as 5'9" with no weight listed. I would take Martin's description with a grain of salt in that they get it off ID which may not be up to date or by eyeballing it.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 11:47 AM (kqXHe)

499 MSNBC host Ed Schultz blamed former Gov. Jeb Bush, R-Fla., for the death of Trayvon Martin, the teenager whose death in a shooting has made national news and sparked accusations of racism in America. "Jeb Bush helped pave the way for this senseless tragedy and remains silent," Schultz said last night on his show. "What a political tragedy." Schultz attributed Martin's death to Bush because the former governor signed a "stand your ground" law designed to allow someone to shoot an attacker when threatened. "It's common sense to allow people to defend themselves," Bush said when he signed the bill into law. The MSNBC host tied Bush to the killing because George Zimmerman, the man accused of shooting Martin, was not arrested for murder after he claimed the shooting was in self-defense. MSNBC is a vile thing

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 23, 2012 11:47 AM (eCnLg)

500 Zimmerman, in the police report, said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, and no one would help me." This was before he knew that other 911 calls picked up the cries for help. Zimmerman's story, from what he told police, before he could "figure out a story," sounds quite convincing. If this holds, the grand jury only indicts based on fear, not facts.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (IhUxK)

501
Independent new reporter to Al Sharpton: So, Reverend Sharpton, you are flying to Sanford Florida on the day after your mother dies, because you are devastated over a black youth being killed - is that right?

Sharpton: "Yassuh that be right. These lynchins has gots to stop. Too manys of black chilluns be killed in the streets."

Reporter: "Reverend Sharpton, you do realize that from 1990 to 2010, in Chicago, 13,133 people were murdered, and in the same period, in DC, 5998 people were murdered. Last weekend alone, 49 people were shot in Chicago - and 10 died, including a 6 year old child. You don't seem to have been as concerned about that. Can you explain why?

Sharpton: "Whitey!"

Break to commercial.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (y0VOX)

502 Holy shit #490. You mean if you are returning to your car and you're attacked from behind, put to the ground where you are being pummeled and you shoot the attacker you think the person attacked should get manslaughter 2?

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (A2cTV)

503 Am I supposed to give a flying fuck about this case? Can someone tell me why?

Posted by: km at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (iFQkz)

504

IANAL, but the $64,000 question may be how much the stand your ground rights flow in either direction. Theoretically, one could argue that the following itself invited a percieved threat against Martin (perceived is all Florida requires as I understand that law) which may negate who acted first.

In any case, it's understandable that the authorities are taking time. This is Florida, where cases go to get screwed up and thrown out or poorly prosecuted because they moved to fast to push charges and a trial. If (and I stress IF) Zimmerman acted outside of the bounds of the law (which as Ace pointed out it seems is at least plausible at this point) then justice does argue that he be punished. HOWEVER, a rush to trial that results in a acquittal (presuming the first if) does not serve justice.

If Zimmer was inside the bounds of the law, rushing to a trial that results in an unfair conviction is also a violation of Justice. Your chances of rushing and getting it right are small, very small.

Posted by: tsrblke at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (SYrwI)

505 Sharpton probably creamed his jeans when he heard the name "Zimmerman".

Posted by: S Daniel at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (BVkEs)

506 The chances of this boomeranging against the libs is high.

There was also an eyewitness that saw the Trayvon (6'3") pummeling Zimmerman on the ground. Zimmerman was yelling for help. Zimmerman had blacks in his family, welcomed a black neighbor to the neighborhood and mentored two black children. The fucking media, 0bama, Sharpton et al. are sick fucks out to create a race war.

This shows to me absolute desperation on the part of the Obama team. Whenever there's a black person murdered, there's a pause to see if the perpetrator might be black. If not, then the race pimps sweep into action.

It hits the media if the victim is unarmed.

The problem is, of course, that this is a boomerang situation waiting to happen:
(1) Martin is undoubtedly not an innocent little kid and seems to be into crime if not gangs.
(2) Zimmerman got bloodied somehow and that works in his favor.
(3) He's Hispanic. If this goes on too long it will be a disaster for the Democrats. They can't be seen to be unfairly attacking a Hispanic in Florida.

But they must know this. And they did it anyway. They must be seeing horrible numbers, even in the black community. Probably a lot of disenchantment. Not a lot of volunteers this time around.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 23, 2012 11:48 AM (T0NGe)

507 Zimmerman, in the police report, said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, and no one would help me."

This was before he knew that other 911 calls picked up the cries for help.

Zimmerman's story, from what he told police, before he could "figure out a story," sounds quite convincing.

If this holds, the grand jury only indicts based on fear, not facts.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 03:48 PM (IhUxK)

Don't forget the 2 eyewitnesses that saw Zimmerman getting his ass kicked and screaming for help.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:49 AM (3jGS1)

508 One of several petitions for ZimmermanÂ’s arrest has garnered more than 250,000 signatures on a change.org site, and at one point signatures were pouring in at the rate of 10,000 an hour, according to the website.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 03:33 PM

Oh please. I get emails from change.org every day on some lefty "cause" they want a petition on. They're another Soros astroturf group.

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:49 AM (Y+DPZ)

509
463 I never said anything about himbeing ordered to stop.Someone else used that word..

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 03:40 PM (vd4t0)

Bullshit. In two of your posts you used the word "chase" to describe Zimmerman's following of Martin.

Look at your own post, #358: zimmerman doesn't chase him he doesn't get in a fight.What right did he have to chase a "suspect".

Those were your exact words, so cut the bullshit.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:50 AM (7+pP9)

510 Ace -

Strongly recommend you read this guy's analysis of the actual Florida law. It is very enlightening.

http://tinyurl.com/6qw6d7g

I suspect that when it is all finished, the Zimmerman is going to not be charged. But this will be heavily used for ginned up rage over racism and gun ownership.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 11:50 AM (8TANr)

511 "Shot was in the chest." Totally consistent with Zimmerman's story of being attacked. One shot - not in the back. Zimmerman shot to stop the attack. He didn't shoot to kill. From the police report, it is no wonder that he wasn't arrested. And nor should he be. The man was defending himself, plain and clear.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:50 AM (IhUxK)

512 499 The brutal truth of race in American is this: A black man is far safer walking in a white neighborhood, than a white man is in a black neighborhood. Even more brutal is the fact a black walking in a white neighborhood is safer than if he were walking in a black neighborhood. But isn't it neat how the MSM is obscuring the fact this was a "Latino" neighborhood? Isn't it time for a National Conversation about Latino racism?

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:51 AM (niZvt)

513 517 Am I supposed to give a flying fuck about this case? Can someone tell me why?

Posted by: km at March 23, 2012 03:48 PM (iFQkz)

Because Sandra Fluke is no longer succeeding in distracting people from $4/gallon gas and high unemployment.

Posted by: joncelli, heartless Con and all around unpleasant guy at March 23, 2012 11:51 AM (RD7QR)

514 "Don't forget the 2 eyewitnesses that saw Zimmerman getting his ass kicked and screaming for help." I heard about that earlier today...but I ask: where have these people been? Like Martin's girlfriend, what has taken them 3-4+ weeks to come forward?

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (IhUxK)

515 Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 03:45 PM (Dll6b)

From the OED: Said to be an alteration of -ki (or -ky), a common ending of the personal names of Eastern European Jews who emigrated to the U.S. at the turn of the 20th cent.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (nEUpB)

516 >>>Head over to Dedicated Tenther's blog for more on this question...but I think that rights are immutable. They are independent of the responsibility with which they are wielded.

Your right to free speech does not include inciting violent revolt.
Your right to travel does not mean running over women and children.
Your right to contract does not include contracting to have someone killed.

You have a right to carry a gun and absolutely NO RIGHT TO DISCHARGE IT.

The choice to carry a weapon that might discharge makes you responsible for whatever happens if you advertently or inadvertently discharge it which is not a right.

Choosing to exercise your right of free speech means taking responsibility for what you have said. Which can mean criminal liability.
Choosing to exercise your right to travel means taking responsibility for your conveyance which under some circumstances can open you up for criminal liability.
Choosing to exercise your right to bear arms means taking responsibility for where your bullets might go, which can open you up for criminal liability.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (0q2P7)

517 Posted by: tsrblke at March 23, 2012 03:48 PM (SYrwI)

==the standard for the 'stand your ground' law is the same 'probable cause' or 'reasonable cause' that is required of cops: You must convince cops, prosecutors, judges, juries, etc that you actually did face a credible, immediate threat of serious bodily harm

The point of the law is to make it clear that unlike New Yawk and some other states, you are not required to seek escape before using deadly force

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (Dll6b)

518 Let us handle the late term abortions Zimmerman!

Posted by: Planned Parenthood at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (nBxFQ)

519 519 Sharpton probably creamed his jeans when he heard the name "Zimmerman".
Posted by: S Daniel at March 23, 2012 03:48 PM

Jew sounding enough for me.

Brothas, let's go burn down some Jew stores!!!!

Posted by: The Right Rev Al Sharpton at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (Y+DPZ)

520 "Not sure if that's the actual law. Just seems like that's likely the law-- stand your ground would apply when you're attacked, not when you yourself attack." Florida case law has long established that in the commission of a crime you have no right to self defense. the stand your ground law doesn't change that. so if Zimmerman was assaulting Martin then got his ass beat he has no legal protection in shooting Martin.

Posted by: bannor, voting Sweet Meteor of Death 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (HEa5q)

521 Okay, so you think Zimmerman was following Martin, lost sight of him, and then Martin appeared and attacked Zimmerman from the back?

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (jUytm)

522 I blame Christopher Walken.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (Fz7+s)

523

513....MSNBC is a vile thing

Yeah they are. .....There was an article yesterday at the FreeBeacon.com about how "Al Qaeda members are Fans of MSNBC" and were pissed when they fired Olbermann. ....This was according to a letter found in Bin Ladin's stuff. Heh.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 11:52 AM (4GgJq)

524 SQUIRREL!

Posted by: MFM at March 23, 2012 11:53 AM (jucos)

525 517 Am I supposed to give a flying fuck about this case? Can someone tell me why?

Posted by: km at March 23, 2012 03:48 PM (iFQkz)

Ask Reginald Denny why you should care.

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 11:53 AM (JfvbF)

526

Zimmerman, in the police report, said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, and no one would help me."

Well 'they' tell you to run inside, lock the door and call 911. What do you expect?

Posted by: garrett at March 23, 2012 11:53 AM (80Hej)

527 I heard about that earlier today...but I ask: where have these people been? Like Martin's girlfriend, what has taken them 3-4+ weeks to come forward?

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 03:52 PM (IhUxK)

If you witnessed this, would you hunt down the cameras? With as inflamed as things are, all I'd have is a "no comment" to the media. Then I'd get my own gun if I didn't already have one.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:53 AM (/Mla1)

528 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 03:52 PM (nEUpB)

===okay, thanks. Fat Al speaks wisely, after all. Go in peace, Al

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:54 AM (Dll6b)

529 "Because Sandra Fluke is no longer succeeding in distracting people from $4/gallon gas and high unemployment." And the Obama War Room to Media Matters to MSDNC to Slate to Politico to The Washington Post to The NY Times Axis of Doofus Network can't come up with something to make people forget that Obama is a STUTTERING CLUSTERFUCK OF A MISERABLE FUCKING FAILURE in everything he has done. So a dead black kid will have to suffice.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:54 AM (IhUxK)

530
Oops -- I got discombobulated over chase and being ordered to stop. Buy my point stands: steevy is clueless.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 11:54 AM (7+pP9)

531 The Left, like Islam, is so insecure and uncertain of the value of their religion that, naturally, every act everywhere is evidence in favor of it. And if it isn't, it will be twisted until it is.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at March 23, 2012 11:55 AM (DuH+r)

532 I must admit. I heard Zimmerman and the first thought that came to mind was "Diamond Merchants!". I can still make a go of it because he white...... or close enough.

Posted by: Reverend Al at March 23, 2012 11:55 AM (jucos)

533 [From the police report, it is no wonder that he wasn't arrested. And nor should he be. The man was defending himself, plain and clear.] At no point did Zimmerman announce who he was to the kid, what his intentions were, or that the police had been contacted and were on the way. This is not the old west. You are not the law just because you have a gun or any other weapon. If you want to be a cop, be a cop. Otherwise let the pros do their job.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:55 AM (bwV72)

534 "If you witnessed this, would you hunt down the cameras?" Possibly, that goes for Zimmerman's witnesses out of fear. But Martin's girlfriend did not deliver an affidavit until THREE WEEKS after his death. What took her so long to come forward?

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:55 AM (IhUxK)

535 We need Friday Afternoon Palate Cleanser.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 23, 2012 11:55 AM (QMtmy)

536 If Mitt Romney had a daughter, she'd pay for her own birth control.

Posted by: Roy at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (VndSC)

537 523 Yeah,I said that and I mean it.I did not say he was ordered not to do it.Following can be a chase,since when you chase someone,you necessarily follow them.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (vd4t0)

538 >>Am I supposed to give a flying fuck about this case? Can someone tell me why?

1) It's being used to attack opponents of Obama.
2) It's being used to attack the second amendment.

My interest in it is pretty limited to how the media lies about shit (including lies of omission and presenting opinions as facts) to drive public opinion.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (ZKzrr)

539

Even more brutal is the fact a black walking in a white neighborhood is safer than if he were walking in a black neighborhood.

But isn't it neat how the MSM is obscuring the fact this was a "Latino" neighborhood?

Isn't it time for a National Conversation about Latino racism?
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 03:51 PM (niZvt)

I forgot which black person said this, but she said when she was walking at night and someone was walking behind her, she was relieved to find that when she turned around that person was white, rather than black ... so it seems to be something not lost on many black people themselves.

As a white man who lives in Brooklyn, I can attest I have seen this happen when walking behind someone at night.

Posted by: Heralder at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (/Mxso)

540 really with all this media attention it's a frigging shame Zimmerman isn't an illegal Mexican and his gun didn't come from fast and furious. now THAT would be a hoot

Posted by: bannor, voting Sweet Meteor of Death 2012 at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (HEa5q)

541 "Zimmerman" is a Jewish name? Are ALL German last names Jewish??

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 11:56 AM (niZvt)

542

Just so no one else makes the same mistake Ace did, hereÂ’s the Wikipedia entry:

Â“A part of what Zimmerman said on the tape is unclear. Some have heard the disputed words as "fucking coons", an ethnic slur used against black people, while others suggest it was "clueless", "course", or "punks". Others insist the words are too muffled to make any determination.Â”

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (FdndL)

543 I heard about that earlier today...but I ask: where have these people been? Like Martin's girlfriend, what has taken them 3-4+ weeks to come forward?

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 03:52 PM (IhUxK)

I don't know anything about this website but there is an Orlando Fox affiliate that interviews the neighbor the very next day and he says that he saw Zimmerman getting beat up and yelling for help. He yelled for Trayvon to stop and ran inside to call police. Click the fox35 link.

http://tinyurl.com/6wcn76k

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (3jGS1)

544 Florida case law has long established that in the commission of a crime you have no right to self defense. the stand your ground law doesn't change that. so if Zimmerman was assaulting Martin then got his ass beat he has no legal protection in shooting Martin.

Posted by: bannor, voting Sweet Meteor of Death 2012 at March 23, 2012 03:52 PM (HEa5q)

==yes, the 'stand your ground' law does not apply if you are 'in the act' of committing a felony or misD. It's obviously ( hear this, ace ?? ) obviously about a citizen who is not committing a crime but facing a perceived threat

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (Dll6b)

545 Are ALL German last names Jewish??
--
Yes. Austrian ones are not though.

Posted by: RioBravo at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (eEfYn)

546 I heard about that earlier today...but I ask: where have these people been? Like Martin's girlfriend, what has taken them 3-4+ weeks to come forward?

The better question may be why did it take the MSM this long to report it?

Posted by: Retread at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (joSBv)

547

Former boxing champ Tommy Hearns originally fought at the 147lb. weight class. He was one hell of a fighter.

So stop with the "he only weighed 140lbs" shit.

Posted by: seamrog at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (JKSUw)

548 This is not the old west. You are not the law just because you have a gun or any other weapon. If you want to be a cop, be a cop. Otherwise let the pros do their job.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 03:55 PM (bwV72)

He did call the "pros". He was trying to keep an eye on him, by all accounts. It's not like he whipped out the cuffs he got on ebay and was trying to restrain him.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 11:57 AM (/Mla1)

549 steevy, I'm surprised as you how many grown men here are afraid of 17 yr olds.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 11:58 AM (jUytm)

550 If George Zimmerman had a name to match his face, like Jorge Zamos, nobody would be discussing this right now in the MBM.

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 11:58 AM (Y+DPZ)

551 "This is not the old west. You are not the law just because you have a gun or any other weapon. If you want to be a cop, be a cop." Under the law, you have a right to defend your life and your property. Zimmerman, as the neighborhood watch captain, was doing his. He went to talk to a black male who he did not recognize, wearing a hoodie and making suspicious movements through his neighborhood. Zimmerman had every right to confront the kid. When he was attacked he cried out for help while the kid hit and punched him, according to the police report. It was then, AND ONLY THEN, that he took out his gun and fired ONE shot to end the threat. Zimmerman had no duty to retreat. The kid was, unfortunately, in a place where other black men in hoodies had committed home invasions and burglaries.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 11:58 AM (IhUxK)

552 Z's real last name is Zimmerhymieschiklgruberstein

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 11:59 AM (Dll6b)

553

>>>The better question may be why did it take the MSM this long to report it?

Answer: SQUIRREL!!!

Posted by: Roy at March 23, 2012 11:59 AM (VndSC)

554

528 "Don't forget the 2 eyewitnesses that saw Zimmerman getting his ass kicked and screaming for help."

I heard about that earlier today...but I ask: where have these people been? Like Martin's girlfriend, what has taken them 3-4+ weeks to come forward?

Some of them called 911 from their homes, while it was happening...and are on tape telling of what they were seeing. ....Then, there are witnesses that talked to the police, when they got there. So that is apparently in the police report.

But the MFM is not talking about this much at all.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 11:59 AM (4GgJq)

555 I'm getting sick of all the pics of this kid as some innocent little waif.

I found the following pic on a CBS News gallery. It was taken from his funeral notice. Now I can't find anything later than his hoodie photograph that Drudge has up:

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/kayakrollover

How about this scenario to make sense of the sequence of events?
Z follows M, probably totally overtly as a way of saying "I'm watching you and you aren't getting away with anything".
M blows a fuse (just like FAU girl Jonatha Carr) at being followed and decides Z needs a beatdown to respect a brother (maybe testosterone fueled by being on the phone with his girl).
The rest follows.

The baiters aren't gonna be happy until they get themselves a racism tornado tearing Florida apart.

Posted by: Kyle Kiernan at March 23, 2012 11:59 AM (/AEUY)

556 [He was trying to keep an eye on him] And this is why you don't do that. People get killed because they're "just going to keep an eye on him."

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 11:59 AM (bwV72)

557 where have these people been?

Six witnesses were interviewed at the time of the shooting. Presumably these two are among them.

They didn't come forward in public because there was no reason for them to.

Head over to Dedicated Tenther's blog for more on this question...but I
think that rights are immutable. They are independent of the
responsibility with which they are wielded.

How did I miss this comment? Wow, I'm normally much more self aggrandizing than that.

As I said there: I disagree. The difference between a "Right" and just "what I can do" is Responsibility. Responsibility is something you can choose to accept, or not, and is as much a moral choice as the original action.

In this case, I do believe that Zimmerman had a Moral responsibility to act smarter than he did. That Moral responsibility may not translate into a legal one, however. From what I'm reading, it sounds more and more like Zimmerman was acting completely legally- in which case he does not give up his right to self defense just because he's a CCW holder.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:00 PM (8y9MW)

558 Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 03:59 PM (4GgJq) never seen the MSM ignore facts that don't support there narrative?

Posted by: bannor, voting Sweet Meteor of Death 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:00 PM (HEa5q)

559 AGITATE WE MUCH!!

Posted by: Reverend Al at March 23, 2012 12:00 PM (jucos)

560 Look,I hate injustice,I hate the idea that someone pulled a gun when it was not necessary.If the circumstances warrant iti have no problem at all with lethal force in self defense.Color of either party is immaterial,if it was a white kid and the shooter was white or whatever.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:00 PM (vd4t0)

561 563
steevy, I'm surprised as you how many grown men here are afraid of 17 yr olds.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 03:58 PM

A 17 year old who looks like a character on Glee? No

A 17 year old whose mug shot just appeared as a suspect in a gang rape and beating? Yes

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:00 PM (Y+DPZ)

562 Jim Norton of all people had a good take on the media's refusal to cover black-on-white hate crime. That itself is a sign of the elite's racism. You see, blacks just can't be expected to behave any better (in their eyes), so when a whitey (or Mexi-whitey, in this case) is the perpetrator, then it becomes shocking - because he's acting the way they expect a black man would.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at March 23, 2012 12:00 PM (Ud5vq)

563

My irony/hypocrisy meter is at eleventy.

Posted by: dananjcon at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (8ieXv)

564

So if Trayvon looked like, say, Mitt Romney's son then President Racial Healing would be okay with this incident?

Because otherwise I don't understand why how he looks matters.

Posted by: Warden at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (6aA95)

565

It is a tragedy, a 17 year old is dead and a family feels like justice has not been served. Was any formal investigation of Zimmerman's actions done or did the police just take his word for what happened? What is the due process? The President doesn't help anyone other than himself by saying Trayvon looks like a son he doesn't have. It is inflammatory and devisive. Does he want race riots?

Posted by: snowcrash at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (t2NQr)

566 >>I forgot which black person said this, but she said when she was walking at night

Jesse Jackson.

Heh.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (ZKzrr)

567 Zimmerman had an interfering with an arrest when a friend of his was getting arrested which was dismissed and a DV complaint that went no where. Not much of a record. Because they refused to say why Martin was suspended you know they are hiding something.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (kqXHe)

568 517 Am I supposed to give a flying fuck about this case? Can someone tell me why? Because it's another attempt to demonize Whites and make sure you notice but never say anything about tsunami of violence against you.

Posted by: White RB at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (LrLv1)

569 Posted by: kallisto

Bleeding heart liberals think that an individual can do whatever the hell he/she wants so long as a "minority" which by legal and media precedent is being defined as singularly black or African-American. But it's never been so. We're responsible for ourselves, for our choices -- and Martin chose in the middle of the night to go alone wearing his hoodie, not in his own neighborhood but a stranger where he was, and by chance be eating Skittles. But of course, skittles!

Wearing a hoodie in public in order to hide one's identity, when staying warm from a bitter winter wind is not an issue, is not so different than a jihadist wearing an Islamic scarf covering the face in order to maintain hidden identity in public. In America, it is not the custom to mask your identity when walking down the street UNLESS you are hiding from the law. Watch any old Western as the bandanas cover the face when the bad guys rob the stage coach or rob the bank.

France already fought against women wearing hidden veils in public. That argument has been fought stateside in courts, whether a Muslim woman can hide her facial identity on her driver's license or ID card, or while in a court room when the Judge orders the removal for security and open identity within his courtroom.

It's stupid wearing a hoodie in public unless its freezing outside. Don't stay stuck on stupid by arguing the "liberty" to dress at will. People do, and I'm not stopping them. That said, I resent being confronted by thugs wearing hoodies with underwear hanging out, swaggering down the street, checking out the scene for easy pickings. I'm not asking for a dress code; nor am I defending a fool for making himself look like a stupid idiot of a bad guy who "deserves" social-justice legally provided opportunism to victimize me.

Self defense is no hate crime. But tell that to the Attorney General Holder when it's your ass on the line. Obama wants to make an issue of this Florida gun law, to federally prosecute the State of Florida over its gun law. And Holder's on record insisting on brainwashing America to eschew gun rights.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (lpWVn)

570 "The better question may be why did it take the MSM this long to report it?" No, the question is, why is the MSM ginning this up? I know why: So that later this year, when Obama is 5-10 points down to Romney, the MSDNCs and CNNs and their useful idiots on their shows can say, "Oh, in the name of Trayvon Martin, is this country really going to vote out of office the first African-American President ever? Are they prepared for the signal that will send to the world?" Wait for it. It is coming.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 12:01 PM (IhUxK)

571 And the Obama War Room to Media Matters to MSDNC to Slate to Politico to The Washington Post to The NY Times Axis of Doofus Network can't come up with something to make people forget that Obama is a STUTTERING CLUSTERFUCK OF A MISERABLE FUCKING FAILURE in everything he has done.

So a dead black kid will have to suffice.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 03:54 PM (IhUxK)

Would that be the Alexrod of Doofus Network?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at March 23, 2012 12:02 PM (1Jaio)

572 So, we have MikeTheMoose, soothsayer, steevy, and supercore23 volunteering for the lynch mob. Any more takers?

Posted by: Louis Farrakhan at March 23, 2012 12:02 PM (ggRof)

573 Does he want race riots? Posted by: snowcrash at March 23, 2012 04:01 PM (t2NQr) ------------------------------------------------------- Duh.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at March 23, 2012 12:02 PM (jucos)

574 Sounds stupid, I know, but the hoodie with the hood up is intimidating. It scares me. The flat brimmed baseball hat just pisses me off.

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:02 PM (u50z0)

575 If I had a son and he looked like Obama, I'd think I had a daughter.

Posted by: USS Diversity at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (vpe0k)

576 >>>It's in the FAQ letter from the link in #25. It's what the police claimed that Zimmerman said. Shot was in the chest. Read the initial report.

OK I read the FAQ letter and the initial report again. No mention of any witness that saw him clearly break off pursuit and return to his truck. Only Zimmerman's word after the fact that he had done so.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (0q2P7)

577 M blows a fuse (just like FAU girl Jonatha Carr) at being followed and decides Z needs a beatdown to respect a brother (maybe testosterone fueled by being on the phone with his girl).

Posted by: Kyle Kiernan at March 23, 2012 03:59 PM

Was an autopsy performed on Martin complete with blood results?

A 17 year old hopped up on drugs can be very lethal

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (Y+DPZ)

578 "Otherwise let the pros do their job."

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 03:55 PM (bwV72)

"We are from the government, and we are here to help."

"When seconds count, the police are minutes away."

Do I have to go on?

You want to rely on the government for your well-being? Have at it.

I'll do it for myself.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (nEUpB)

579 [Zimmerman had every right to confront the kid.] I'm sorry but no he didn't. He did not witness a crime. He did not witness a trespassing. He saw a kid, on his street, that he didn't know. The first lesson of concealed carry is to NOT put yourself in a situation where you're going to have to use your weapon. Your first instinct should *always* be to create distance between yourself and any possible threat. Unless you're protecting someone else of course.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (bwV72)

580

Jesse Jackson.

Heh.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 04:01 PM (ZKzrr)

Whoa, really? That seems really out of character. Funny how I thought it was a woman though.

Posted by: Heralder at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (/Mxso)

581 Others insist the words are too muffled to make any determination.Â”

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 03:57 PM (FdndL)

So... coons. Thanks!

Posted by: The MSM at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (Fz7+s)

582 I forgot which black person said this, but she said when she was walking at night and someone was walking behind her, she was relieved to find that when she turned around that person was white, rather than black ... so it seems to be something not lost on many black people themselves.

The person who said that was, I shit you not, the Rehvrundddd Jacksunnnnn

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (sbV1u)

583 @553

It was Jesse Jackson who said that I believe.

Posted by: McLovin at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (j0IcY)

584 Wait for it. It is coming.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 04:01 PM (IhUxK)

==yes, this is almost entirely about increasing Black voting and attacking the 'stand your ground' law

Posted by: SantaRosaStan at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (Dll6b)

585 586 Not at all Lou,and you are a rent seeking whacko piece of shit BTW.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:03 PM (vd4t0)

586

if it was a white kid and the shooter was white or whatever.

Steevy, if the kid was white you would never have heard the first word about this tragedy

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at March 23, 2012 12:04 PM (mFxQX)

587 Please watch the Fox35 video at this link. They interviewed the neighbor the NEXT DAY and he said that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him. He ran inside to call police then heard the gunshot.
http://tinyurl.com/6wcn76k

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 12:04 PM (3jGS1)

588 The flat brimmed baseball hat just pisses me off. Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 04:02 PM (u50z0) Especially when it's worn by a snotty 12 year old white kid in the suburbs.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 12:04 PM (niZvt)

589 588- Esepcially with that gold sticker still on it.

Posted by: Heralder at March 23, 2012 12:04 PM (/Mxso)

590 Does he want race riots?
--
Shirley, you jest.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 12:04 PM (lpWVn)

591 It's nice to see that Trayvon didn't get Obama's ears. What? Oh.

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (u50z0)

592 Something doesn't add up in all this. Zimmerman gets out of his car to follow Martin, loses sight of him, heads back to his car and Martin just jumps him? I find it hard to believe there was no confrontation between them leading to the fight.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (zmlwq)

593 >>Watch any old Western as the bandanas cover the face when the bad guys rob the stage coach or rob the bank.

Watch any violent WTO or G8 protest. Bandannas and keffiyahs all around. Also showed up in OWS wanna-be riots.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (ZKzrr)

594 Ed Anger,let go our anger,it leads to the Dark Side.Actually,I'm angry all the time since Obama got elected myself.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (vd4t0)

595 If George Zimmerman had a name to match his face, like Jorge Zamos, nobody would be discussing this right now in the MBM.

That's what the race traitor gets for integrating. Let it be a lesson to everyone...

Posted by: The Mega Independent at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (Fz7+s)

596 "how many grown men here are afraid of 17 yr olds"

You clearly have never been beat up by a 17 year old. I have. The next time, I will shoot instead.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 12:05 PM (8TANr)

597 604 Does he want race riots? -- Shirley, you jest. Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 04:04 PM (lpWVn) I'm dead serious. And don't call me Surely!

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 12:06 PM (niZvt)

598 [So, we have MikeTheMoose, soothsayer, steevy, and supercore23 volunteering for the lynch mob. Any more takers?] Fuck off. I'm advocating AGAINST people taking the law into their own hands. That's what this whole conversation is about.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:06 PM (bwV72)

599 How utterly pathetic it is that President Pond Scum would try and identify with a dead person in order to garner sympathy for himself.

Posted by: S Daniel at March 23, 2012 12:06 PM (BVkEs)

600 600 True,probably just a local tragedy.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:06 PM (vd4t0)

601 There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life,Â” Jesse Jackson said several years ago, Â“than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robberyÂ—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.Â” Jackson now says his quotation was Â“taken out of context.Â” The context, he said, is that violence is the inevitable byproduct of poor education and health care. But no amount of Â“contextÂ” matters when you fear that you are about to be mugged.

--
Jesse Jackson

Posted by: McLovin at March 23, 2012 12:06 PM (j0IcY)

602 368 More time than it takes to draw a pistol? Or less?

At 10 feet I've always heard (from an NRA instructor, no less) that it's iffy, but smart money would be on the guy who had to draw his pistol instead trying to hold his guts in.

9' or less is no contest- knife guy wins.
15 ' or more is no contest- gun guy wins. Well, assuming he hits the assailant pretty quickly after pulling his gun.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 03:22 PM (8y9MW)

ehh not sure where you pulled this from. If you have any hand to hand or LEO training, they tell you that at 15", a knifeman can cover that distance and kill you in 3/10ths of a second. Not close to enough time to unholster a gun and fire. Thats why prison guards do not carry guns.. because they are USELESS in close quarters.

Posted by: The Cock of Truth at March 23, 2012 12:06 PM (u4/vX)

603
Again, where was Martin when he was shot? The autopsy should have revealed what position he was in. Why are they hiding it?

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (kqXHe)

604 I find it hard to believe there was no confrontation between them leading to the fight. Posted by: radar

Stranger things have happened. Like, oh, an unqualified black man being elected President of the United States.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (sbV1u)

605 610 "how many grown men here are afraid of 17 yr olds" Dude. Some tall guy in a hoody at night. Possibly armed. What would you do, ask him for his birth certificate?

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (niZvt)

606

572 Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 03:59 PM (4GgJq)

never seen the MSM ignore facts that don't support there narrative?

Nooo....they do that? Really?

Heh.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (4GgJq)

607 Before all of this is said and done - there are going to be innocent people murdered.

And the blood will be on the hands of the leftist media. Sharpton, Obama and Farakhan could never have pulled this off without them.

Good grief - there is NO difference between this and the clerics fanning the koran burning flames.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (y0VOX)

608 The right-good-reverends, the left, the media, and the perpetually aggreived community are going to go all in on this. When the true facts come out, they are going to look like fools, but that won't stop them. They want violence over this. This is being ginned up for political purposes and it will not end well.

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (JfvbF)

609 And don't call me Surely!

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 04:06 PM (niZvt)

==I saw what you did there

Posted by: guy who sees Stuff at March 23, 2012 12:07 PM (Dll6b)

610 Trayvon is not the only one who is dead.

Posted by: Deceased Equine at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (YdQQY)

611 Was any formal investigation of Zimmerman's actions done or did the police just take his word for what happened?

Define "formal investigation." Real life isn't like CSI, most "formal investigation" is on-scene. If a subject makes a statement, and the facts seem to back it up, the police will only very rarely spend additional man-hours on getting any rock-solid evidence.

So, for the cops, they had the calls to 9-1-1. They had 6 eye witnesses. They had physical evidence which seemed to corroborate Zimmerman's story. They knew Zimmerman (or the department did) as a frequent caller, and someone who had reported crimes before- as a "good actor." So, when he stated that (this is what the police say he said) he was on his way back to the truck when Martin attacked him, called for help several times, and only fired once he believed help either was not coming, or wouldn't come quickly enough, they probably believed him and did no further investigation.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (8y9MW)

612
change.org is very popular among euroweenie scumpals married to death row inmates who are all innocent.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (kqXHe)

613 For the peeps arguing that a 17 year old at 140 pounds isn't anybody to worry about:

Audie Murphy, upon joining the Army at 18: 5'-6", 110 pounds. A Medal of Honor, 2 Silver Stars, Distinquished Service Cross, Legion of Merit, 2 Bronze Stars, and 3 Purple Hearts later he might have bulked up a little, I don't know.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (VMcoS)

614 535
Okay, so you think Zimmerman was following Martin, lost sight of him, and then Martin appeared and attacked Zimmerman from the back?

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 03:52 PM (jUytm)

Well, his statement and the wound to the back of his head suggest that he did.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (3jGS1)

615 I find it hard to believe there was no confrontation between them leading to the fight. That's the part Zimmerman is leaving out. There were words between them at some point.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (jUytm)

616 I'm just glad that there isn't a case before the Supreme Court that might eliminate race-based preferences in College admissions and really inflame racial tensions. Oh wait. It's going to be a long, hot summer.

Posted by: Annoyer of Liberal Acquaintances at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (nTjSs)

617 "yes, this is almost entirely about increasing Black voting and attacking the 'stand your ground' law." That's a bonus. What the MSN really wants is to have a national feeling of guilt of tossing a black man out of the White House. Wait until some CNN or MSDNC host says that Romney calling the SCOAMF "a failure" is "code for racist language." You don't realize what the freaks in the media will do to keep this Junta in power. If they have to have white people shot to keep Obama in office, they may just consider it as the cost they are willing to bear.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (IhUxK)

618 Well,I'm big and I tend to look angry,so I don't get bothered by teenagers or anyone else.I can see how a teenager would be intimidating to some.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (vd4t0)

619 613 How utterly pathetic it is that President Pond Scum would try and identify with a dead person in order to garner sympathy for himself. Posted by: S Daniel at March 23, 2012 04:06 PM (BVkEs) I was just thinking of little Sasha and Malady, wearing hoodies in a strange neighborhood at night.

Posted by: President Pond Scum at March 23, 2012 12:08 PM (niZvt)

620 Dude.

Some tall guy in a hoody at night. Possibly armed.
What would you do, ask him for his birth certificate?

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 04:07 PM (niZvt)

**********

Right, like you'd have enough light to be able to examine the pixels to tell that I 'shopped it anyway.

Posted by: Some tall guy in a hoody at night at March 23, 2012 12:09 PM (ggRof)

621 621 Before all of this is said and done - there are going to be innocent people murdered.

And the blood will be on the hands of the leftist media. Sharpton, Obama and Farakhan could never have pulled this off without them.

Good grief - there is NO difference between this and the clerics fanning the koran burning flames.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 04:07 PM (y0VOX)

Kinda like a Mo-Bro Pali car swarm, huh?

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 12:09 PM (JfvbF)

622

580-596-615 - Thanks guys! Apparently I have a shoddy memory and suck at research.

Posted by: Heralder at March 23, 2012 12:09 PM (/Mxso)

623 >>>So, we have MikeTheMoose, soothsayer, steevy, and supercore23 volunteering for the lynch mob. Any more takers?

Um Fuck you.
I'm just giving an opinion based on what is known since I know I will never be on a jury to try him. I've never said murder 1, I've run from Murder 2 down to Man 2 depending on the circumstances.

The only way I would consider acquittal is if he acted within reason the same way I would expect someone to act if they weren't carrying a gun.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (0q2P7)

624 This is not the old west. You are not the law just because you have a gun or any other weapon. If you want to be a cop, be a cop. Otherwise let the pros do their job. Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 03:55 PM

I've been told by more than one cop that if you call 911 and the assailant is already in your home, the only thing they can do by the time they get there is to put up the yellow tape and draw the chalk outline

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (Y+DPZ)

625
At 10
feet I've always heard (from an NRA instructor, no less) that it's iffy,
but smart money would be on the guy who had to draw his pistol instead
trying to hold his guts in.

9' or less is no contest- knife guy wins.
15 ' or more is no contest- gun guy wins. Well, assuming he hits the assailant pretty quickly after pulling his gun.

21 feet is considered the break point of a moderately trained individual being able to draw a weapon and respond to an attack.

7 yards

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (y0VOX)

626 Ace This is the correct link for the tape you are describing in the update. http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/explicit-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/ If you continue to about the 2:30 mark you can hear Zimmerman say- something to the effect- "He's running". So that kind of negates the-"he's coming towards me".

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (r2PLg)

627 "Well, his statement and the wound to the back of his head suggest that he did." Which the grand jury hopefully will look at. I would love to be a lawyer for Zimmerman, and nail the media for their slanted coverage.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (IhUxK)

628 What would you do, ask him for his birth certificate? I ask him if he's the Unabomber.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (jUytm)

629 "They interviewed the neighbor the NEXT DAY and he said that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him. He ran inside to call police then heard the gunshot."

Well that's that, then. Sorry kids, but under Florida law, that is a legal shoot.

Trayvon could have stopped assaulting Zimmerman, but didn't. Not knowing Zimmerman had a gun doesn't justify assault.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (8TANr)

630 627 He was a tough little guy but he didn't exactly beat up the Krauts with his fists.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (vd4t0)

631 This is what I don't get, people are hearing him scream for help and everyone's initial response is to run inside and hide.

Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 23, 2012 12:10 PM (tKFT6)

632

"steevy, I'm surprised as you how many grown men here are afraid of 17 yr olds."

Afraid, no. Aware that a feral version can physically do as much damage as his older brother can, yes. Are 17 year old military inductees somehow less physically capable as those who are 19? Or 23?

I don't care how old they are. If they're male and set off my spidey sense, I'm looking for the exits. It beats reaching for my ccw.

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (4I3Uo)

633 621 Before all of this is said and done - there are going to be innocent people murdered.And the blood will be on the hands of the leftist media. Sharpton, Obama and Farakhan could never have pulled this off without them.Good grief - there is NO difference between this and the clerics fanning the koran burning flames. Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 04:07 PM (y0VOX) And we'll never even hear about it. Because it would be too "inflammatory."

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (niZvt)

634 I'm just glad that there isn't a case before the Supreme Court that might eliminate race-based preferences in College admissions and really inflame racial tensions.

Because 40 years of unqualified people attending college isn't enough!

No worthless degrees! No peace!

Posted by: Al Sharpton at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (sbV1u)

635 I have a 20 year old son who is 5'8" and 150 lbs. I have a 6'2" son who weighs 200 lbs. Both played football and lacrosse. The smaller one wrestled. Guess which one you should be afraid of in a fight?

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (u50z0)

636 [I've been told by more than one cop that if you call 911 and the assailant is already in your home, the only thing they can do by the time they get there is to put up the yellow tape and draw the chalk outline] That is so far from what we're actually talking about it's kind of amazing. Well done sir.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (bwV72)

637
At no point did Zimmerman announce who he was to the kid, what his intentions were, or that the police had been contacted and were on the way.

This is not the old west. You are not the law just because you have a gun or any other weapon. If you want to be a cop, be a cop. Otherwise let the pros do their job.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 03:55 PM (bwV72)

It makes no difference, meathead. When somebody approaches you and then attacks you, you have the right to self defense.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 12:11 PM (7+pP9)

638

Ace is busy tweeting his little fingers to the bone about this. .....Defending Zimmerman, it looks like.

Way to go, Ace.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 12:12 PM (4GgJq)

639

Dude. Some tall guy in a hoody at night. Possibly armed. What would you do, ask him for his birth certificate?
Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 04:07 PM (niZvt)

Actually, I'd mind my own fucking business. I'm not a cop, and the kid wasn't doing anything illegal. He was walking down the street.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:12 PM (zmlwq)

640 While Ace didn't mention the name of the film in his very excellent long review, I believe this movie is called: "Al Sharpton Sucks Cock in Hell." It is a remake of a remake of a remake of a remake of a remake of a movie that came out in 1987, which I believe was called: "Al Sharpton and Tawana Brawley Share a Shit Sandwich."

Posted by: Sharkman at March 23, 2012 12:12 PM (RtpCp)

641 Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 04:04 PM (niZvt)

Or our 20-year-old wannabe rapper.

On being asked where he was by a friend during a phone conversation, he answered, "at my crib."

I almost punched him.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 12:12 PM (nEUpB)

642 "This is what I don't get, people are hearing him scream for help and everyone's initial response is to run inside and hide." Sadly, isn't that the most common reaction to this kind of thing? You know how many videos there are on youtube of people beating up people? That's because instead of helping, people would rather grab their phones and film or, failing that, flee the scene before they're next. We are not a society of the brave.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at March 23, 2012 12:12 PM (Ud5vq)

643 Guess which one you should be afraid of in a fight? Posted by: dagny

Your cat?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at March 23, 2012 12:12 PM (sbV1u)

644 New thread up finally.

Posted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 12:13 PM (YdQQY)

645 "I've been told by more than one cop that if you call 911 and the assailant is already in your home, the only thing they can do by the time they get there is to put up the yellow tape and draw the chalk outline." Case decided this past week in Miami - guy came out and found a man breaking into his car. He ran back inside, got a kitchen knife, and went back out. The guy had run away. The car owner followed him, and caught up to him. The thief tried to attack the homeowner, and the thief was stabbed and died right there. A judge dismissed the case. Both homeowner and thief were black. No one protested a dead thief. No one called for marches. No one called for the "Stand Your Ground" law to be gotten rid of. Until a "white guy" defended himself.

Posted by: Anson Mitchell at March 23, 2012 12:13 PM (IhUxK)

646 643 "They interviewed the neighbor the NEXT DAY and he said that he saw
Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him. He ran inside to call police
then heard the gunshot."

Well that's that, then. Sorry kids, but under Florida law, that is a legal shoot.

Trayvon could have stopped assaulting Zimmerman, but didn't. Not knowing Zimmerman had a gun doesn't justify assault.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 04:10 PM (8TANr)

No, it depends on who initiated the fight, which we don't know yet.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:13 PM (zmlwq)

647 I have a 20 year old son who is 5'8" and 150 lbs. I have a 6'2" son who weighs 200 lbs. Both played football and lacrosse. The smaller one wrestled. Guess which one you should be afraid of in a fight? Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 04:11 PM (u50z0) ---------------------------------------------------- The black one.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at March 23, 2012 12:13 PM (jucos)

648 I find it hard to believe there was no confrontation between them leading to the fight.

That's the part Zimmerman is leaving out. There were words between them at some point. Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 04:08 PM

And you KNOW this how with no documention?

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:13 PM (Y+DPZ)

649

"To me the question comes down to who started the fight. If Zimmerman started it, then he can't plug a guy just because he started a fight and then got his ass kicked.

But if Martin started it, then Zimmerman can take refuge in the Stand Your Ground law.

Not sure if that's the actual law. Just seems like that's likely the law-- stand your ground would apply when you're attacked, not when you yourself attack."

So fucking wrong it's embarrassing. Confrontation was initiated when Zimmerman followed Martin.

Posted by: tx conservative at March 23, 2012 12:13 PM (DKfLx)

650 White on Black crime ambulance chasers.You bet your ass Holder is all over this, followed by the usual suspects. The MSM want to blow this up, smear it in our faces, just to remind us that blacks have been granted special,victim hood status in our society.

Let the shakedowns commence. If we milk it long enough, it might just get Obama reelected.

Posted by: befuddled at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (xJU23)

651 Somehow all this reminds me of a scene from an old cowboy movie. The gang of bad guys has captured the sheriff, and have him tied up. "Alright, Sheriff... we're going to fuck you, and we're going to fuck you nice and slow! Or something like that.

Posted by: CoolCzech at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (niZvt)

652 I'm not afraid of anyone and that's been a problem in the past. I've learned to pick my battles as I've matured. Less pain.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (A2cTV)

653 That is so far from what we're actually talking about it's kind of amazing. Well done sir.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 04:11 PM (bwV72)

No, he's making a point that "call the pros and let them handle it" is a bonehead statement. That's not to say you should go vigilante either, but there's a gray area. Assuming Z was just trying to watch, and he did call 911, he was in that gray area.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (/Mla1)

654
Actually, I'd mind my own fucking business. I'm not a cop, and the kid wasn't doing anything illegal. He was walking down the street.

People minding their own business is what enabled the burglaries.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (y0VOX)

655 Also the dispatcher asks Zimmerman to meet the police at the mailboxes-zimmerman initially agrees and then says- "can they call me before they get here-so I can tell them where to meet me?" That's not an exact quote.

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (r2PLg)

656
551 523 Yeah,I said that and I mean it.I did not say he was ordered not to do it.Following can be a chase,since when you chase someone,you necessarily follow them.

Posted by: steevy at March 23, 2012 03:56 PM (vd4t0)

"Chase" and "follow" have distinctly different connotations.

The fact that you can't see the difference is further proof you don't have a clue.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 12:14 PM (7+pP9)

657 He saw a kid, on his street, that he didn't know.

Let's be more clear, here.

He saw a black kid he didn't recognize, just standing in the rain, shaking for some reason (he suspected drugs), looking at a specific building (a house? The community center? That seems confused from what I read), when there had been break-ins in the neighborhood by other kids fitting the same description as Martin.

As a member of the neighborhood watch ('self appointed' or otherwise) he did have every right- even a responsibility- to approach someone he found suspicious and attempt to ascertain why they were there and what they were doing. Especially if he did so in a calm, non-threatening as possible manner.

There does seem to be some confusion on if he "chased" or simply "followed" Martin. Whichever he did, he claims that he lost sight of the kid, and had begun to return to his car. If that's true (and we don't know) then he wouldn't be guilty of any crime.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:15 PM (8y9MW)

658 [Zimmerman had every right to confront the kid.]
--
I'm sorry but no he didn't.
--
That's not to say that having identified himself first, Zimmerman had no right to ask the kid to identify himself.

If your neighbors or you have just been robbed during the night, and along with others you volunteer to watch out for suspicious activity, and it's your turn, and now you see a hooded stranger checking out your block in the middle of the night, those of us on the other end of the nation who weren't even there have no right to dictate what Zimmerman's rights EXCLUDE, to limit what he's permitted to do when determining who the heck this stranger scoping his house is.

I'm not going to arbitrarily condemn Zimmerman. This is America where no one was guilty before being proven in a court of law; that is, prior to Obama's Administration.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 12:15 PM (lpWVn)

659

I don't understand why Zimmerman couldn't just wait for the cops. There was no crime in progress. That is my big problem. The cops wouldn't have done anything just ask Trayvon why he was there.

Posted by: snowcrash at March 23, 2012 12:15 PM (t2NQr)

660 56 The white kid set on fire clearly didn't look like Obama's son. ---
Not before anyway

Posted by: Zombie Michael Jackson at March 23, 2012 12:15 PM (SO2Q8)

661 Doesn't it seem odd that someone is screaming for help over and over and all people do is cower in their homes and/or call 911? Just the appearance of another person might have stopped the scuffle.

Posted by: slatz at March 23, 2012 12:15 PM (qsUe1)

662 645 This is what I don't get, people are hearing him scream for help and everyone's initial response is to run inside and hide.
Posted by: Adam Smith's Invisible Pimp Hand at March 23, 2012 04:10 PM

I always wondered about that

Posted by: Kitty Genovese at March 23, 2012 12:16 PM (Y+DPZ)

663 [It makes no difference, meathead. When somebody approaches you and then attacks you, you have the right to self defense.] So if I was stalking you as you walked home from the corner store and you turned to confront me about it and it got physical, I'd be justified in shooting you?

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:16 PM (bwV72)

664 668
Actually, I'd mind my own fucking business. I'm not a cop, and the
kid wasn't doing anything illegal. He was walking down the street.

People minding their own business is what enabled the burglaries.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 04:14 PM (y0VOX)

And if Martin was breaking into a house, that might be relevant. Which it isn't.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:16 PM (zmlwq)

665 So fucking wrong it's embarrassing. Confrontation was initiated when Zimmerman followed Martin.

Posted by: tx conservative at March 23, 2012 04:13 PM (DKfLx)

What if Martin was guilty of something? Zimmerman is still the aggressor for following him? Following alone isn't a confrontation.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 12:16 PM (/Mla1)

666 Sean, Do you really think I would have a cat?

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:16 PM (u50z0)

667 >>>Confrontation was initiated when Zimmerman followed Martin. There's a crime against "following"? A lot of people are saying "Martin had the right to walk in the neighborhood." Conceded. Do you concede that Zimmerman had the right to do a neighborhood watch patrol? Or are you claiming that was illegal, and in fact so illegal it then make it legal for Martin to beat him up?

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 12:16 PM (nj1bB)

668 And you KNOW this how with no documentation? Life experience. Tell me, ol chum, do you believe everything someone tells you or do you use your past experience to discern the truth?

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 12:17 PM (jUytm)

669 Posted by: Zombie Michael Jackson at March 23, 2012 04:15 PM (SO2Q

That might be the most tasteless comment I have ever read on this blog, and I have been reading it for a long time, and there have been many tasteless comments.

Well played Sir! Well played.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 12:18 PM (nEUpB)

670 Sounds to me like Zimmerman was only trying to keep the perp in sight. Once he lost him - because the perp was doubling back to attack him - he broke off and tried to return to his vehicle.

I have to say, you jump me, have me down and are pummeling me - I WILL shoot you.

Probably more than once.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 12:18 PM (y0VOX)

671 675 Doesn't it seem odd that someone is screaming for help over and over and all people do is cower in their homes and/or call 911? Just the appearance of another person might have stopped the scuffle.
Posted by: slatz at March 23, 2012 04:15 PM

Let me tell ya about the city folks someday, son

Posted by: Former Los Angeles resident at March 23, 2012 12:18 PM (Y+DPZ)

672 Also, if it was raining, pulling a hood up isn't a weird or suspicious thing.

Posted by: snowcrash at March 23, 2012 12:18 PM (t2NQr)

673 I think one of the things that's going on here is an attempt to preempt any possible push-back to the increasingly frequent black-on-white "flash mob" attacks. The media furor is meant to give potential flash mob victims a cautionary preview of the potential consequences for attempting to defend themselves.

Posted by: chicagorefugee at March 23, 2012 12:19 PM (FeFBS)

674 These people live in a gated community. Of course they ran inside.

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:19 PM (u50z0)

675 >>>I've been told by more than one cop that if you call 911 and the assailant is already in your home, the only thing they can do by the time they get there is to put up the yellow tape and draw the chalk outline

Why does everybody want to apply the same laws as shooting someone in your house in self defense with shooting someone out in the open. The rules are very very different.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 12:19 PM (0q2P7)

676 Neighbor watch people can't follow unknown people who are in their neighborhood? Fucking bizzaro logic.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 12:19 PM (A2cTV)

677 Based on the information Zimmerman chased the guy down, either tackled or attempted to tackle him and then got his ass handed to him. Then after starting the fight, he pulls a gun to finish it. If there really was a neighborhood watch association you can bet they will tell the watchers not pursue. They are not deputized law enforcement officers.

Posted by: President Chet Roosevelt at March 23, 2012 12:20 PM (WU3T3)

678 When the phone records are seized (crickets) I heard it clearly. little Martin tells his girlfriend he's gonna busacapinnacrackeraz.

Posted by: LaZrtx at March 23, 2012 12:20 PM (bK81x)

679
Does Zimmerman confronting Martin justify Martin assaulting him? What if Zimmerman he left and returned to his truck and Martin jumped him from behind? Is that okay because he was following him earlier? Come on, yahoos, answer the questions!

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:20 PM (kqXHe)

680 Do you concede that Zimmerman had the right to do a neighborhood watch patrol?

Or are you claiming that was illegal, and in fact so illegal it then make it legal for Martin to beat him up?

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 04:16 PM (nj1bB)

Watching. As in, not pursuing. Not to mention the fact that Zimmerman's story that he never had any contact with Martin whatsoever, just tried to follow him and then suddenly got jumped while walking back to his car, makes no goddamned sense.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:21 PM (zmlwq)

681 687 I think one of the things that's going on here is an attempt to preempt any possible push-back to the increasingly frequent black-on-white "flash mob" attacks. The media furor is meant to give potential flash mob victims a cautionary preview of the potential consequences for attempting to defend themselves.

Posted by: chicagorefugee at March 23, 2012 04:19 PM (FeFBS)

You're right. That's another thing there's been a media black-out on.

Posted by: Havedash at March 23, 2012 12:21 PM (JfvbF)

682 Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 04:19 PM (0q2P7)

That was one person making a clearly crappy point.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 12:21 PM (nEUpB)

683

; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;" class="MsoNormal">652Ace is busytweeting his little fingers to the bone about this. .....Defending Zimmerman, it looks like.

Way to go, Ace.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 04:12 PM (4GgJq)

ThatÂ’s great. LetÂ’s just hope he gets his facts straight.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 12:21 PM (FdndL)

684 I live down the road from Sanford. It's an interesting place and an even more interesting mix of people.

First, Central Florida has a large and somewhat diverse Hispanic population. Most are well-educated, professional Caribbean Latinos (Puerto Rico, Dominican, etc). We also have a segment of Mexicans who largely work the orange groves to the west.

Sanford has a fairly high concentration of Bubbus Floridus, with a love of loud trucks and louder Harleys. The high-tech industry of Orlando, Heathrow, and Lake Mary doesn't quite reach all the way to Sanford... but its close proximity to the St. Johns River makes it a haven for fishing, jet-skiing, gator-wrasslin', etc.

Sanford also has a growing black population, and represents a significant portion of Corinne Brown's wildly gerrymandered district that pretty much reaches a tentacle eastward in order to draw a line around the black neighborhoods near downtown Sanford.

Sanford also features a kickass German restaurant - Hollerbach's Willow Tree Cafe - that is definitely worth the trip.

As much hubbub as there is about this incident, I highly doubt that Sanford would much tolerate Louie Farrakhan's desire for retribution. Bubbus Floridus simply will not let that shit go on for very long.

Posted by: weew at March 23, 2012 12:21 PM (ElfHn)

685 >>>so if Zimmerman was assaulting Martin then got his ass beat he has no legal protection in shooting Martin.

The only evidence so far is that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:21 PM (kqXHe)

686 Let me tell ya about the city folks someday, son

Sanford isn't very big.

Posted by: slatz at March 23, 2012 12:22 PM (qsUe1)

687 #693 we will never know what happened if there isn't a formal police investigation/inquiry into what happened that night. Doesn't sound like there was.

Posted by: snowcrash at March 23, 2012 12:22 PM (t2NQr)

688 Actually, I'd mind my own fucking business.
--

Fucking being the operative word.

Exactly why no one reported the woman being stabbed to death while screaming bloody murder in the middle of NYC, though people peered out their windows to get a bloody eyeful. No witnesses when the police attempted to subsequently interview the neighborhood. If a tree falls and no one reports hearing it, did it make a sound? If a person dies, and no one misses them, did that human ever exist?

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 12:22 PM (lpWVn)

689

This is what I don't get, people are hearing him scream for help and everyone's initial response is to run inside and hide.

Heh, yeah, you must be new.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 12:22 PM (TULs6)

690 693
Does Zimmerman confronting Martin justify Martin assaulting him? What if Zimmerman he left and returned to his truck and Martin jumped him from behind? Is that okay because he was following him earlier? Come on, yahoos, answer the questions!

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 04:20 PM (kqXHe)

Depends on what the confrontation entailed, and no, if Zimmerman did nothing else but briefly follow him, then Martin would indeed be the aggressor.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:23 PM (zmlwq)

691 And you KNOW this how with no documentation?

Life experience.

Tell me, ol chum, do you believe everything someone tells you or do you use your past experience to discern the truth? Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 04:17 PM

Read your own comments, quite the load of projection there

Just say you assume it, or it's your impression. Maybe he didn't tell the cops they had words before because he didn't have words.

You're assuming he's hiding something because you're assuming that he had motive other than self defense or an overload of adrenaline

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:23 PM (Y+DPZ)

692 >>>Or are you claiming that was illegal, and in fact so illegal it then make it legal for Martin to beat him up?

The standards is would a reasonable person feel threatened. And when a non-uniformed guy starts following you down the street at night, that answer at least for me is a definite yes.

>>>approaches you and then attacks you, you have the right to self defense.

If you threaten somebody and they attack you, no you do not have an unlimited right to self defense.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 12:23 PM (0q2P7)

693 702 Actually, I'd mind my own fucking business.
--

Fucking being the operative word.

Exactly why no one reported the woman being stabbed to death while screaming bloody murder in the middle of NYC, though people peered out their windows to get a bloody eyeful. No witnesses when the police attempted to subsequently interview the neighborhood. If a tree falls and no one reports hearing it, did it make a sound? If a person dies, and no one misses them, did that human ever exist?

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 04:22 PM (lpWVn)

Wow! That was an impressive non-sequitor! Do you practice this bullshit, or does it just come naturally?

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:24 PM (zmlwq)

694
You're assuming he's hiding something because you're assuming that he had motive other than self defense or an overload of adrenaline

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 04:23 PM (Y+DPZ)

Or I'm using common sense to think that it sounds highly unlikely that Martin would just attack Zimmerman for no reason whatsoever while Zimmerman was walking back to his car. It seems a lot more plausible that there was SOME kind of confrontation there.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:26 PM (zmlwq)

695 well, well. I didn't know twitter had pron. I searched for aceofspades since I didn't see ace on my feed and apparently there is a aceofspaces__# in detroit for pron. Gross.

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:26 PM (u50z0)

696 701 #693 we will never know what happened if there isn't a formal police investigation/inquiry into what happened that night. Doesn't sound like there was.

Yes, there was. And when the local police declined to pursue charges, they referred it to the County Prosecutor for further investigation. They are submitting it to the grand jury. The local police are doing everything right but still they get shit on.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:26 PM (kqXHe)

697 Sheriff to Sharpton: Ok, Mr Sharpton, I cannot stop you from coming here. I understand what this is all about - but just so we understand each other, you so much as spit on the sidewalk and I will put your fat ass so far UNDER my jail Bob Ballard will not be able to find you.

Do I make myself clear?

Yassuh.

Later, in front of the MSNBC camera crew: "I told that honkey sheriff that we WILL have justice or we WILL NOT have peace!"

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 12:26 PM (y0VOX)

698 an epic armed confrontation between Louie Farrakhan's Grievance Army and Florida Rednecks if that happens it'll be the only good thing that comes from this tragic mess.

Posted by: bannor, voting Sweet Meteor of Death 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:26 PM (HEa5q)

699 IAAFL (and I don't mean Florida Lawyer) so I read the statute so here it is one more f*****g time.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.Â—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.History.Â—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

Posted by: tmitsss at March 23, 2012 12:27 PM (V4Pya)

700 >>>Based on the information Zimmerman chased the guy down, either tackled or attempted to tackle him and then got his ass handed to him. Then after starting the fight, he pulls a gun to finish it. that is possible. On the other hand, we have no idea. Martin might have come back. At the end of the tape I just posted, Martin is "Running" and Zimmerman is not. So the situation seems to have ended at that point, sighting broken off. What happens next we still don't know.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 12:27 PM (nj1bB)

701 >>> "If there really was a neighborhood watch association you can bet they will tell the watchers not pursue. They are not deputized law enforcement officers."

They don't have to be.

Regular people can do whatever cops can do.

Cops get their authority from us. They are our agents.

If anything, cops have less power.

We are free people. We don't take orders from cops. They do not own us. They do not control us. We don't have narrower rights to defend ourselves and our property than they do.

Posted by: Phinn at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (KNtHw)

702 >>> It seems a lot more plausible that there was SOME kind of confrontation there.

No, it doesn't.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (kqXHe)

703 >>>What if Zimmerman he left and returned to his truck and Martin jumped him from behind? Is that okay because he was following him earlier? Come on, yahoos, answer the questions!

There is a line someplace. It's hard to pin down. And it lies in the area of what would a reasonable unarmed person do in that situation. Going beyond that places him at fault at some level.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (0q2P7)

704
The only way I would consider acquittal is if he acted within reason the same way I would expect someone to act if they weren't carrying a gun.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 04:10 PM (0q2P7)

You mean getting your ass get kicked or maybe even beaten to death.

It sounds like your "getting your ass get kicked" criteria was met.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (7+pP9)

705 Geez Louise, here is the Florida statute in plain text.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.Â—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.History.Â—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

Posted by: tmitsss at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (V4Pya)

706 Watching. As in, not pursuing.
--
Apply that to Obama/Holder, then.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 12:28 PM (lpWVn)

707 Just say you assume it, or it's your impression. Every goddam comment on the internet comes with that unwritten disclaimer. I really have to preface every single thing I say with "I believe" or "In my opinion?" It goes without saying. Only two people know what happened that night. One of them is dead.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 12:29 PM (jUytm)

708 "Well,I'm big and I tend to look angry,so I don't get bothered by teenagers or anyone else."

I get told that a lot stevey. I have to say it isn't a bad way to get though life.

Posted by: Gulfkraken at March 23, 2012 12:29 PM (WBfjO)

709 So if I was stalking you as you walked home from the corner store and you turned to confront me about it and it got physical, I'd be justified in shooting you?

How, exactly, did it "get physical" in this hypothetical? That's kind of the nut there. It seems to me that, although it is confrontational, Zimmerman had every right to walk in his own neighborhood, follow and even confront Martin.

Maybe Martin did feel threatened, but if he initiated violence, I don't see where Zimmerman did anything illegal.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 23, 2012 12:29 PM (T0NGe)

710 Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 04:24 PM (zmlwq)

You were born yesterday.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 12:30 PM (lpWVn)

711 Geez Louise, Here is the Florida Statue in plain text.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.Â—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.History.Â—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

Posted by: tmitsss at March 23, 2012 12:30 PM (V4Pya)

712

@719

Florida puts frowney emoticons in their statutes? Unexpected...and awesome!

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 12:31 PM (4I3Uo)

713 As a member of the neighborhood watch ('self appointed' or otherwise) he did have every right- even a responsibility- to approach someone he found suspicious and attempt to ascertain why they were there and what they were doing. Especially if he did so in a calm, non-threatening as possible manner.
---------------------------

According to the testimony of the Neighborhood Watch Captain he was appointed.

Posted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 12:31 PM (YdQQY)

714 thanks, tmitsss. "Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unlessa) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; " This is the whole problem with the law, isn't? It's right there in black and white, and really doesn't answer anything. Did Zimmerman's following count as "provoking" the fight?

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 12:31 PM (nj1bB)

715 So if I was stalking you as you walked home from the corner store and you turned to confront me about it and it got physical, I'd be justified in shooting you?

Define "stalking." If you're actually stalking (as in: stalking is a felony), then no- but the State has to prove that's what you were doing. Because, frankly, you could have just been heading that way anyway.

In either case: in light of the now pretty close to documented (I'm not completely sure its what happened, but it seems pretty likely now) case that Zimmerman stopped chasing/following Martin, and had started heading back to his truck, Martin no longer had cause to defend himself- there was no longer a reasonable threat. That makes any attack an assault, and puts Zimmerman in the role of defender.

Why does everybody want to apply the same laws as shooting someone in your house in self defense with shooting someone out in the open. The rules are very very different.

Because FL has a "Stand Your Ground" law that people confuse with "extending the Castle Doctrine" which it doesn't exactly do.

Still, based on facts in evidence (which is not to say all the facts, just the ones that we actually have documented) this looks more like "terrible tragedy" or "self defense" and in neither case is he culpable for murder.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:31 PM (8y9MW)

716 I give up read a ;( frowny face as a colon and an open parenthesis

Posted by: tmitsss at March 23, 2012 12:31 PM (V4Pya)

717 [In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant] And this is what I've been talking about all afternoon. Zimmerman had ample opportunity to distance himself from Martin. He chose to, at the least, maintain a close proximity and, at the worst, start an altercation.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:32 PM (bwV72)

718 716 >>> It seems a lot more plausible that there was SOME kind of confrontation there.

No, it doesn't.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 04:28 PM (kqXHe)

Right. It was just a completely random attack from a teenager with no apparent history of violence. Very convincing.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:32 PM (zmlwq)

719 720 Watching. As in, not pursuing.
--
Apply that to Obama/Holder, then.

Posted by: maverick muse at March 23, 2012 04:28 PM (lpWVn)

The hell are you blathering about? What does this even mean?

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 12:33 PM (zmlwq)

720 #691 your dishonest post speaks for itself.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 12:33 PM (A2cTV)

721 "Don't encourage him. Or you'll find out more about random's worldview than you'd care to know."

You mean science and common sense. The data is overwhelming, and theoretically it makes sense also. Indeed, it could hardly be otherwise that there would be differences in our cognitive organ, and not just physical appearance and hormonal levels (which affect behavior greatly), considering that is our ecological niche and what we use most to survive.

If our morphology, jaw and teeth strength, etc., and physical appearance evolved to deal with different environments, then it isn't surprising our brain did as well.

And so it is. Different groups even have different brain sizes according to many studies including direct measurement MRI studies. Not surprisingly, there is an inverse correlation between those and general intelligence factor / IQ testing. Further, the crime rates pan out the way you would expect them to, with lower IQ people (whether within one racial group or groups of differing average IQs) committing more violent crime.

Nature does a lot of things, but equality was never one of them. We all know this. We all know that one individual isn't biologically equal to another. We can assign them identical political and moral worth, fine. But people vary physically and in psychometric traits.

I'm not claiming to be at the pinnacle of any biological trait, much less all. But I'm honest enough to admit to biological diversity. The fact Americans in the past brutally enslaved Africans and now have to walk on eggshells isn't going to keep me from acknowledging easily discoverable anthropological truths.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 12:33 PM (XlIXi)

722
Anything that keeps you from discussing national and international goings on will work for us.

Posted by: MFM at March 23, 2012 12:33 PM (M+UUq)

723
So fucking wrong it's embarrassing. Confrontation was initiated when Zimmerman followed Martin.
Posted by: tx conservative at March 23, 2012 04:13 PM (DKfLx)

What if Martin was guilty of something? Zimmerman is still the aggressor for following him? Following alone isn't a confrontation.

Posted by: yinzer at March 23, 2012 04:16 PM (/Mla1)

I agree yinzer. I think tx conservative's comment was idotic, to say the least.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 12:35 PM (7+pP9)

724 The standards is would a reasonable person feel threatened. And when a non-uniformed guy starts following you down the street at night, that answer at least for me is a definite yes.

I suppose there isn't a legal requirement for this, but let's look at Martin's actions for a minute. He had a cell phone. He thinks some guy's following him. Why isn't he calling 911?

Posted by: AmishDude at March 23, 2012 12:35 PM (T0NGe)

725 Not gonna wade through 730+ comments of conjecture and supposition. Let the detectives detect and present a case (or not) to the prosecutor and let that office present (or not) a case to the grand jury.

Posted by: Count de Monet at March 23, 2012 12:36 PM (4q5tP)

726

Karen Finney, sitting in as an MSNBC anchor, declared definitely about an hour ago that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin.

She didnÂ’t qualify it. She didnÂ’t Â“allegeÂ” or use any other term that might lead one to believe it was anything but a proven fact. This is how the left wing media works, but letÂ’s hope some Florida lawyer is ready for a big payday.

Zimmerman is in hiding and has received death threats. By having a Â“newsÂ” organization declare him a Â“murdererÂ” Â– a term with some fairly specific legal meaning Â– Finney and MSNBC have opened themselves up to one massive lawsuit.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 12:36 PM (FdndL)

727 God bless you, Ace!

If only the media could stop their anti-white racist lies. . .

Posted by: Jeremy at March 23, 2012 12:36 PM (Xb6WS)

728 He chose to, at the least, maintain a close proximity and, at the worst, start an altercation.

Except that it appears (from that last recording Ace posted, and Zimmerman's account at the time) that he had attempted to distance himself from Martin- breaking off any "pursuit"- and then was attacked.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:36 PM (8y9MW)

729 "If you have any hand to hand or LEO training, they tell you that at 15", a knifeman can cover that distance and kill you in 3/10ths of a second. Not close to enough time to unholster a gun and fire. Thats why prison guards do not carry guns.. because they are USELESS in close quarters."

Fits what they teach in Florida CCW classes. You never let an attacker get close to you. If you do, you are dead.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 12:37 PM (8TANr)

730 Nature changes through evolutionary processes. When geographical barriers and thousands, even tens of thousands, of years separate groups, there is genetic drift as well as adaption to their specific niches. Charles Darwin observed this with finches a couple centuries ago. Humans aren't immune to this, and certainly our magnificently adaptable complex brains are not.

This is obvious to an intellectually honest informed person.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 12:37 PM (XlIXi)

731 So, if Martin and Zimmerman confronted each other and began to fight, and Zimmerman pulled a gun, but Martin got the gun away from Zimmerman, shot and killed Zimmerman, could Martin then claim self-defense?

Posted by: S Daniel at March 23, 2012 12:37 PM (BVkEs)

732 Ladies and gentlemen,

I present to you ms. Corinne Brown, representing the 3rd Congressional District of Florida (which includes Sanford)

http://tinyurl.com/cugko3

Posted by: weew at March 23, 2012 12:38 PM (ElfHn)

733 I meant stalking as in "stalking prey", not the celebrity kind. By Zimmerman's own account, Martin tried to ESCAPE the situation by running. This is not a kid that's looking for a fight or trouble. Why would he attack Zimmerman? Only way it happens is if he's trapped or surprised in an alley by a guy waiving a gun.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:38 PM (bwV72)

734 >>>And this is what I've been talking about all afternoon. Zimmerman had ample opportunity to distance himself from Martin. He chose to, at the least, maintain a close proximity and, at the worst, start an altercation There is no evidence Zimmerman "started" the altercation yet. Unless you think following a guy is "starting" it. I don't think such remote actions will count. I think starting it must mean starting it.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 12:38 PM (nj1bB)

735

"Based on the information Zimmerman chased the guy down, either tackled or attempted to tackle him and then got his ass handed to him. Then after starting the fight, he pulls a gun to finish it. "

Wow. Zimmerman's apparently got some pretty impressive footspeed for a schlumpy white hispanic dude.

Either that ot Travon was way down on the depth chart of the football team.

I find this scenario unlikely.

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 12:39 PM (4I3Uo)

736 steevy, I'm surprised as you how many grown men here are afraid of 17 yr olds.

Posted by: soothsayer

You're both welcome to go counsel these young men at a detention center near you.

Posted by: DaveA at March 23, 2012 12:39 PM (TcY34)

737 >>>Except that it appears (from that last recording Ace posted, and Zimmerman's account at the time) that he had attempted to distance himself from Martin- breaking off any "pursuit"- and then was attacked. no it doesn't really prove that. it suggests contact was ended for the moment. It re-started, obviously, again. We don't know who re-started it, if Martin came after Zimmerman, or if Zimmerman started running down Martin.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 12:39 PM (nj1bB)

738 Only way it happens is if he's trapped or surprised in an alley by a guy waiving a gun.

Or, you know, the way it seems to have happened based on current knowledge.

Zimmerman reported "He's running," and then "he ran." There is no evidence in that call that he ran after Martin. That indicates that Zimmerman's story- about losing him and turning back to his truck- is quite possibly true.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) SMOD 2012 at March 23, 2012 12:40 PM (8y9MW)

739

Zimmerman said he followed Martin, then lost him and was returning to his car.

If you look at a Google satellite image of the two addresses listed in the police report, you can see how tight it is between the buildings, the offset of the alleyways and how it could be easy for Martin to lose Zimmerman in the dark, then come up behind him unseen.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 12:40 PM (FdndL)

740

#748, what if Trayvon starts to run and Zimmerman gives chase? Is that "starting" the altercation? By Trayvon or by George?

Posted by: snowcrash at March 23, 2012 12:41 PM (t2NQr)

741 Only two people know what happened that night. One of them is dead.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 04:29 PM (jUytm)

So the two eyewitnesses who told the same story that was corroborated by what Zimmerman said immediately after in the cop car don't count?

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 12:41 PM (3jGS1)

742 Karen Finney? She who was stunned that women would actually vote for Santorum and can only attribute it to the southern code word for racism "conservative"? That Karen Finney?

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 12:41 PM (8TANr)

743 A group of Capitol Hill staffers gathered today on the U.S. Capitol steps to rally in support of Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old unarmed boy gunned down in Sanford, Fla.

About 250 to 300 aides rallied this afternoon in support of "Hoodies on the Hill." Participants were encouraged to wear hooded sweatshirts in the 80 degree heat and to bring bags Skittles candy and iced tea, two items Martin was carrying when he was killed by a 28-year-old man as he walked back to his father's girlfriend's house.

"We have a mandate to ensure that young boys like Trayvon live their lives and that they're successful and that they have the opportunity we have today," said Brandon Andrews, a congressional staffer who said he was representing African American men on the Hill.

Posted by: Geraldo Rivera at March 23, 2012 12:42 PM (e8kgV)

744 [That indicates that Zimmerman's story- about losing him and turning back to his truck- is quite possibly true.] I'm not saying it isn't. He very could have been heading back down an alley that Martin walked into on accident trying to get away. Remember, Martin doesn't live here. He doesn't know the lay of the land as well as Zimmerman. He doesn't know the route Zimmerman is going to take.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:43 PM (bwV72)

745 Sick of the great conservatives on Twitter defending Zimmerman. He was following someone that hadn't done anything. If Trayvon had been a woman, would anyone here be defending Zimmerman? The fact that he was a football player doesn't mean anything. He was defending himself from this lunatic that was stalking him and had a gun.

Anything else that may or may not have happened, Zimmerman shot and killed a 17 year old who's only crime was walking home from a store. Trying to rationalize it is the height of stupidity, because Zimmerman was the one that committed the crime.

Posted by: FPW at March 23, 2012 12:43 PM (BDNF5)

746 Ace But Zimmerman doesn't follow him at that point -- he's not breathing hard. He doesn't seem to be running himself. Doesn't he say that he is in his car? Later in the conversation he says something like- Look for my truck. Zimmerman initially agrees to meet the police at the mailboxes...but later changes that to "can they call me-and then I will let them know where I am at." It's possible he decided to try to keep an eye on Martin. He could have used his truck. At the beginning of the tapes he says- "they always get away."

Posted by: tasker at March 23, 2012 12:43 PM (r2PLg)

747 The laws against stalking do not apply in this case, but I looked it up anyway. Florida: Section 784.048. STALKING; DEFINITIONS; PENALTIES. 1997. (1) As used in this section, the term: (a) "Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 12:44 PM (jUytm)

748 244 Thank you.

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at March 23, 2012 12:44 PM (YmPwQ)

749

Plenty of gold stars for soothsayer to earn on this thread. He's working hard to flush out all the Moron closet racists. Now he bends his giant intellect to the task of explaining how all 17 year-olds are built like toddlers and couldn't physically threaten a ladybug.

I don't know if I have the vocabulary to adequately express my scorn.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 23, 2012 12:45 PM (FEqS6)

750 OK, steevy and soothsayer have shown me the light of truth as to what happened.

George Zimmerman is a wannabe cop who couldn't pass the exams but he's still a nascient Dirty Harry who thinks every ***** is a thievin' thug

Little Trayvon Martin is a whispy idealistic young lad who plays football, is an honor student, and wants to feed the hungry in Africa some day.

Little Trayvon is walking through the neighborhood on his way back from cooking dinner for his invalid grandmother and decides to collect donations for the Sanford battered women's shelter.

He's not quite sure where he is and he's starting to get scared because this crazy looking musclebound hater is giving him the evil eye.

He's talking on the phone with his girlfriend about meeting after she's done with choir practice when he tells her this creepy big guy is following him and he's scared. She tells him not to take chances, run away.

Zimmerman gets into his Mozambique Drill position and yells "FREEZE -------!!"

Little Trayvon reaches into his belt to show him his ID and his Bible when Zimmerman grins and pumps hot lead into the innocent lad.

Zimmerman then rolls around in the mud and pistol whips himself to make it look like a fight when the cops get there.

Why are the cops there? Because Zimmerman disobeyed a direct order from a 911 dispatcher with all the authority of a file clerk and said "I've had enough of these uppity -----, I'm gonna make an example of this one"

That about right?

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:45 PM (Y+DPZ)

751

If at the beginning of the encounter Trayvon did start to approach Zimmerman before running away, as Zimmerman told dispatchers, then it is likely that Trayvon is the one who initiated contact when Zimmerman followed. Zimmerman did not try to approach Trayvon earlier. He was just keeping tabs on him for the police. There is no reason to think he would have changed this behavior, or that Trayvon would change his.

The teen had already shown aggressive behavior, and it is undisputed that it was Trayvon who was on top of Zimmerman beating on him. It also seems clear that it was Zimmerman who was calling for help. The police "corrected" one witness who claimed they heard the kid call out for help, which shouldn't have happened, but it still seems clear that it was Zimmerman who called out. Hopefully they can prove whose voice it was from the 911 recordings.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 12:46 PM (kTTUz)

752 The witness don't know the whole story, which is what I was implying in my comment.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 12:47 PM (jUytm)

753 "Anything else that may or may not have happened, Zimmerman shot and killed a 17 year old who's only crime was walking home from a store. Trying to rationalize it is the height of stupidity, because Zimmerman was the one that committed the crime."

Beyond stupid. The point everyone has been making is that Zimmerman has evidence of being physically assaulted, and witnesses that state he was being assaulted. This changes the story that is being spun for us considerably.

Even in Florida, assault is a crime, while buying Skittles is only a crime in NYC.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 12:47 PM (8TANr)

754 [Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 04:45 PM (Y+DPZ)] What the fuck?

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:47 PM (bwV72)

755

@759

First, go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw.

Then, go do it again.

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 12:47 PM (4I3Uo)

756 This is just a question. It means nothing. But. Why didn't Martin call the cops?

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:47 PM (u50z0)

757 I don't know if I have the vocabulary to adequately express my scorn.

Now that's funny.

Posted by: DaveA at March 23, 2012 12:48 PM (TcY34)

758
Based on the information Zimmerman chased the guy down, either tackled or attempted to tackle him and then got his ass handed to him. Then after starting the fight, he pulls a gun to finish it.

If there really was a neighborhood watch association you can bet they will tell the watchers not pursue. They are not deputized law enforcement officers.

Posted by: President Chet Roosevelt at March 23, 2012 04:20 PM (WU3T3)

You're full of shit. Everyhing suggests he was Zimmerman was confroted by Martin and after taking a beating acted in self defense.

Did you even know Zimmerman received police training?

Here's what the police train:

Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a neighborhood to be Â“eyes and earsÂ” for police and to watch out for their neighbors. They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the situation.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 12:49 PM (7+pP9)

759

a schlumpy white hispanic dude.

.....lulz.

We're sticking with the black hispanic/white hispanic stuff eh?

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 12:49 PM (TULs6)

760 I don't know how many times I can post this but Trayvon's own father said that it wasn't his son on the 911 tapes.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 12:49 PM (3jGS1)

761 [Why didn't Martin call the cops?] You mean the same cops that gave the guy that shot him for walking around his dad's neighborhood a pat on the back and an "off you go"?

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:50 PM (bwV72)

762

That Karen Finney?

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 04:41 PM (8TANr)

Yes, that Karen Finney. The one MSNBC put in front of a microphone and camera to declare someone who hasnÂ’t even been charged with a crime a Â“murdererÂ”.

They better hope heÂ’s convicted quick or Zimmerman is going to end up owning that clown network.

Posted by: jwest at March 23, 2012 12:50 PM (FdndL)

763 Geraldo Rivera's son, Gabriel, is reportedly ashamed his father made a controversial statement about Trayvon Martin on Friday.

Posted by: Attack Watch at March 23, 2012 12:50 PM (e8kgV)

764 @769

Why don't you kill yourself first?

Posted by: FPW at March 23, 2012 12:51 PM (BDNF5)

765 >>>Anything else that may or may not have happened, Zimmerman shot and killed a 17 year old who's only crime was walking home from a store. Trying to rationalize it is the height of stupidity, because Zimmerman was the one that committed the crime. If Trayvon was indeed beating him, then your statement has to be amended to read, "whose only crime was a felony." If you're beating someone, you should know, if you didn't already, that the person may be armed and that continuing to beat a downed man could have bad results for you. IF Trayvon started the fight, then he broke the law. He doesn't have a right to beat people up. Even if he's angry, or feels picked on. You people really lose your brains when race is in play, don't you? Do you think you suddenly get a free pass to beat someone up because you were offended? Now, if Zimmerman started the fight, then he can't cry self-defense. At the present moment we don't know.

Posted by: ace at March 23, 2012 12:52 PM (nj1bB)

766
This is just a question. It means nothing. But. Why didn't Martin call the cops?

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 04:47 PM (u50z0)

He did. You need to get up to speed on what is known to have happened.

Posted by: Ed Anger - Certified Kos Kid at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (7+pP9)

767 Only two people know what happened that night. One of them is dead.

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 04:29 PM (jUytm)

Exactly! Now, get outta my brain.

This and Ace's point about the MFM and the usual band of race baiters ignoring the story about the white kid getting lit on fire by black yutes while leaping mightily (olympically?) to conclusions on the Martin/Zimmerman story are the essential points.

Posted by: Count de Monet at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (4q5tP)

768 This is going to be a repeat of the Duke Lacrosse case. I'd bet money on it.

The only saving grace is that the local DA isn't trying to use it as a political stepping stone, and is waiting for the evidence to be gathered.

Posted by: Dave in Fla at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (8TANr)

769 You can't make this shit up - really.

PHILADELPHIA -- A man has been shot in the head and killed during the filming of an amateur rap video in Philadelphia.The shooting happened Thursday night in front of a crowd of about 100 people. Police say the man was in his late 20s or early 30s.After he was shot, he was accidentally run over by a car trying to leave the scene. Police say the driver won't be charged.Authorities say three gun-wielding men were arrested shortly afterward and one has been identified by witnesses as the shooter.The motive for the shooting is unclear. Police say they're unsure if the man killed was the target or if he was a part of the video or a spectator.

Posted by: Fat Al at March 23, 2012 12:53 PM (y0VOX)

770

You people really lose your brains when race is in play, don't you?

Oh hell yes.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 12:54 PM (TULs6)

771

>>>You mean getting your ass get kicked or maybe even beaten to death.
It sounds like your "getting your ass get kicked" criteria was met.

No I mean not even getting out of your truck and placing yourself at personal risk dick. I don't see a reasonable person going after a suspicious 17yo (yes is potentially dangerous and could be gangbanger) on foot without a weapon. The instant he made that decision it bought him man 2 in my mind.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 12:57 PM (0q2P7)

772 people I think I've mentioned race maybe... zero times. Because it's not about race. It's about the fact that you don't follow ANYONE after the cops have been called. You don't follow anyone if you haven't witnessed a crime. You don't follow anyone if you're armed and it's dark and the cops are on the way. You don't follow anyone period full stop.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 12:58 PM (bwV72)

773 If he is bleeding on the back of his head, it supports his statement that he was jumped from behind.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 12:58 PM (kqXHe)

774

774 says: "I don't know how many times I can post this but Trayvon's own father said that it wasn't his son on the 911 tapes."

Got a cite for that? I'd like to see it.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 12:58 PM (kTTUz)

775 My favorite part of the Duke Lax case: Crystal "honor student" "single mother" and "rape victim" kills her boyfriend 2 years later. I just never heard if Jackson paid her tuition?? I know Mike Nifong is going to pay forever. One of the mothers is using the civil money to sue the university, the police, the city, etc until the end of time. She keeps winning and then takes the money to file more cases. It's a beautiful thing.

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 12:58 PM (u50z0)

776

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 04:13 PM (zmlwq)

absolutely not. if i punch you in the face and you pull a knife do i hve to stand there and let you stab me? i have lost my right to self defense?

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 12:59 PM (xAq1C)

777 What does the autopsy on Martin say?

If he was running when shot, he'd be shot in the back.

How many shots were fired?

Was the wound point blank or did the gun contact the body?

How far away from each other were Zimmerman and Martin?

Did either have alcohol or drugs in their system?

Oh, and if he was just walking home from the store, what time was the transaction made?

Inquiring minds and investigators want to know. The MBM and the leftist race arsonists have already made up their minds

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 12:59 PM (Y+DPZ)

778

the instant he made that decision it bought him man 2 in my mind.

Because he got out of his car?

Then you basically oppose 'stand your ground' laws. You think a "reasonable" person's first duty is to retreat.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 12:59 PM (TULs6)

779 [Then you basically oppose 'stand your ground' laws. You think a "reasonable" person's first duty is to retreat.] Yes! Because that's what the "Stand your ground" law says!

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:00 PM (bwV72)

780

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 04:57 PM (0q2P7)

mainly because you dont know shit about shit obviously. you want to try zimmerman in the court of public opinion and you ahve found him guilty. all becasue he got out of his truck.

Posted by: chas at March 23, 2012 01:01 PM (xAq1C)

781 "Beyond stupid. The point everyone has been making is that Zimmerman has evidence of being physically assaulted, and witnesses that state he was being assaulted. This changes the story that is being spun for us considerably."

This is obviously important. That said, following someone after the cops tell you not to is asking for trouble. I can think of a few reasons you would, either to do with protecting yourself or someone else. But ... makes it look bad when you later put bullets into him.

So totally relevant if he was being assaulted, but calls into question that somewhat. All facts for a jury to accept, weigh, or dismiss as they see fit.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 01:01 PM (dDUnD)

782

This shan't end well for George, methinks. And what really happened will be quite irrelevant to George's fate.

I see years in court.
Trial,
conviction,
appeal,
federal trial,
conviction,
conviction overturned,
re-trial,
acquittal,
riots,
media grandstanding
federal conviction overturned,
charges dropped,
pleas for can't we all just get along,
former President Obama wearing a hoodie leading a candlelight vigil for Trayvon during the run-up to his 2016 primary bid.
Al Sharpton accusing Barack of never really having been down with the struggle...
It'll never end.

Posted by: Sherman McCoy's Bonfire of the Inanities at March 23, 2012 01:01 PM (Xv7f/)

783 I think I've mentioned race maybe... zero times. Because it's not about race. It's about the fact that you don't follow ANYONE after the cops have been called. You don't follow anyone if you haven't witnessed a crime. You don't follow anyone if you're armed and it's dark and the cops are on the way. You don't follow anyone period full stop. Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 04:58 PM

And you didn't see nothin' , ya got that?

Posted by: Tony Soprano at March 23, 2012 01:01 PM (Y+DPZ)

784

"Why don't you kill yourself first?"

And give up any further chance of reading your excellent and well-reasoned gems like "If Trayvon had been a woman, would anyone here be defending Zimmerman"?

No chance. Enlighten me some more, chief.

Posted by: Jaws at March 23, 2012 01:01 PM (4I3Uo)

785 The only people who are sanctioned to not retreat as a first reaction are cops. And even they are taught to avoid engagement with deadly force unless and until absolutely necessary.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:01 PM (bwV72)

786

Yes! Because that's what the "Stand your ground" law says!

Well! I disagree! And so do many laws!

How bout that!

Pistols at dawn?!?

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 01:02 PM (TULs6)

787

The only people who are sanctioned to not retreat as a first reaction are cops.

You should specify "sanctioned in my personal opinion" because you are not arguing laws.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 01:03 PM (TULs6)

788

The instant he made that decision it bought him man 2 in my mind.<<<

It must have also bought you CHOCKIT ICE CWEAM! because that's retarded. Stay in the vehicle or manslaughter? Those are your two choices?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 23, 2012 01:04 PM (cymxI)

789 The only people who are sanctioned to not retreat as a first reaction are cops. And even they are taught to avoid engagement with deadly force unless and until absolutely necessary.

Haven't traveled to Seattle lately huh?

Posted by: Cast Iron at March 23, 2012 01:04 PM (EL+OC)

790 One of the mothers is using the civil money to sue the university, the police, the city, etc until the end of time. She keeps winning and then takes the money to file more cases. It's a beautiful thing.
----------------
I'm loving it.

On January 15, 2008, Nifong filed for bankruptcy under Chapter 7 of the Bankruptcy Code.^[89] He listed assets of almost $244,000 and liabilities of over $180.3 million, the bulk of which being six $30 million "unsecured nonpriority claims," one for each of the six members of the 2005Â–2006 Duke Lacrosse team suing Nifong, among others.

Posted by: befuddled at March 23, 2012 01:04 PM (xJU23)

791 Looking at Zimmerman's photo, I must rely on one of my basic rules of life:

Never take seriously a grown man who wears earrings. On that alone I'd bet on guilty.

Say what you will, I stand by that rule. It hasn't let me down yet.

Posted by: weew at March 23, 2012 01:04 PM (ElfHn)

792

I will tell you this much, if I ever have to stand my ground I will not call police about it.

I'm going to grab a shovel and some plastic tarp and hope people think it was fireworks.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 01:05 PM (TULs6)

793 >>>Right. It was just a completely random attack from a teenager with no apparent history of violence. Very convincing. Nice job making up shit. Are you msm? Kid wasn't suspended for doing nothing. And it wasn't random.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 01:05 PM (kqXHe)

794 HELLO!!!!

WE DON'T KNOW THE FULL STORY PEOPLE!!!

CHILL MOTHERFUCKERS, CHILL!!!!!

Posted by: McLovin at March 23, 2012 01:05 PM (j0IcY)

795 I'm going to grab a shovel and some plastic tarp and hope people think it was fireworks.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 05:05 PM (TULs6)

Lime. Don't forget the lime.

Posted by: Cast Iron at March 23, 2012 01:06 PM (EL+OC)

796 should I'm pretty sure every state and municipality has laws on the books regarding vigilantism. Which this is.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:07 PM (bwV72)

797 Citing the law means nothing. Laws ceased to matter a generation ago. What matters now is The Narrative. If The Narrative is that Zimmerman is a white racist who shot a little black boy, then that is what happened and he will be punished. Facts don't matter. Law doesn't matter. Citing Florida law or 911 transcripts don't matter.

Liberals have turned American society into a totally subjective world, in which what you FEEL is more important than the truth.

Posted by: Trimegistus at March 23, 2012 01:08 PM (v9Kjt)

798 If Obama had a son, he'd look like Trayvon

If I had a wife, she'd look like Christina Hendricks

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 01:09 PM (Y+DPZ)

799
17 What does that even mean-"If I had a son he'd look like Trayvon?" and how the heck does that have any bearing on this situation? I wish Obama would shut his mouth.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 23, 2012 02:28 PM (ceyqu)

No, no, no. I want obama to open his mouth as often as possible.

Posted by: jem at March 23, 2012 01:09 PM (0oYHO)

800 @788

Martin attacked-corroborated by witnesses.

Martin's father says it's not Trayvon's voice on the 911 tapes

WESH-2 news in link-Via Yahoo

http://tinyurl.com/7z7bdqo

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 01:09 PM (3jGS1)

801 Right. It was just a completely random attack from a teenager with no apparent history of violence. Very convincing.

Posted by: radar at March 23, 2012 04:32 PM (zmlwq)

That's incredibly naive. have you not been paying attention to what has been going on in this country?

There are so many documented cases of random fucking violence in the past 2-3 years from "urban youths" that if you were paying attention, you wouldn't say something so goddamn stupid.

Champaign Illinois. Peoria Illinois. Philadelphia. Washington DC. Wisconsin State Fair.

There are hundreds more. Hundreds. Some guy and his girl leaving a restaurant jumped by "urban youths." A guy minding his own business knocked off his bike and beaten, just for thrills. TONS of race-motivated violence from black teenagers on just about everyone around them, especially whites. Flash mobs robbing stores, beating guys on subway platforms while the rest film it and look on.

For every "ambalamps" guy there are hundreds of victims that never even see justice for what is done to them, because the perps disappear.

How many of those kids have obvious criminal records? "No apparent history of violence" = "hasn't been reported by the media or released because he was a minor."

So, like just about everyone else condemning this guy, you're shooting off your mouth and making pronouncements without having the slightest fucking idea what the truth really is.

There *already is* a race war.

Posted by: grognard, SMOD-Squad at March 23, 2012 01:10 PM (NS2Mo)

802 I live near Sanford and pass this development everyday, it looks like an apartment complex from the 417 that I travel. Anyway, If you look up the crime stats for Sanford you will see that they are rather high statistically for a small community in central Florida.

More importantly the layout of the community is rather compact which means that there are potentially a lot of witnesses, I only say this for the following reasons.
Sanford PD is under no obligation to release information to anyone when an active investigation is underway so we don't know if there are more witnesses and if so what they may have seen. Secondly, immediatley upon arrival responding officers secure the crime scene and in the case of homicide begin the notification process, this would include Detectives, Duty commanders, and in this case I would think the Chief of Police. Most importantly an Assistant State Attorney would have been called and I am willing to bet arrived on the scene within the hour or sooner. Not a single one of these professionals has any skin in this game as far as covering anything up it is simply a matter of procedure, identifying potential witnesses, collecting evidence identifying and getting statements from those involved etc.

My point is we simply do not know what the Police or the ASA know or don't know or what they are working on not our business right now. To jump to conclusions and convict Zimmerman based on our lack of knowledge about that night is cruel. The young man who died deserves better, his family deserves better, Zimmerman deserves better. The Grand Jury will get this case and they will get a complete case, then and only then will all of the facts as they are known be presented. To make this a racial and political event at any point is sad, to do it before the facts are known is cruel.

Posted by: Dr. Jellyknuckles at March 23, 2012 01:12 PM (Kb7dA)

803 Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 04:50 PM (bwV72)

Ah, the truth comes out. The cops were racist. Zimmerman is a racist.

What's next? That all of us are racists?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 01:13 PM (nEUpB)

804 If I had a wife that looked like Christina Hendrick,I would spend all of my money on health insurance. Back problems for her, heart attack from all the sex for me.

Posted by: befuddled at March 23, 2012 01:14 PM (xJU23)

805 784 You people really lose your brains when race is in play, don't you?

Oh hell yes.

Posted by: Entropy at March 23, 2012 04:54 PM (TULs6)

What do you mean, "you people"?

Posted by: Sgt. Osiris at March 23, 2012 01:15 PM (v+QvA)

806 Also from the link in 814 the police were told by prosecutors that they had no basis to arrest even for manslaughter in this case. But hey, a bunch of guys in the internet are much better at sorting this out than the police and prosecutors who have been to the crime scene, interviewed the witnesses. Have at it I quit.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 01:15 PM (3jGS1)

807 Just a reminder - Sanford is in the Maxine Waters/Sheila Jackson-Lee wannabe Corinne Brown's congressional district. You can bet she'll at the very least not resist any attempts to make this a circus of race-hustlers, and at the very worst use this as her way of securing re-election/prominence/rub shoulders with the Jesse Jacksons of the world/power grab/etc.

I live down the street from Sanford (and mercifully I'm not in that woman's district). I would like nothing more than for this matter to calm down, be handled by Seminole County authorities, and blow over.

Posted by: weew at March 23, 2012 01:16 PM (ElfHn)

808 >>>At the present moment we don't know. Posted by: ace at Again, that autopsy report would help to see what injuries if any besides the gsw Martin had and in what position both he and the shooter were in.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 01:16 PM (kqXHe)

809 [817 Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 04:50 PM (bwV72) Ah, the truth comes out. The cops were racist. Zimmerman is a racist. What's next? That all of us are racists?] What the fuck? No. I'm not saying you're racist. Or that the cops are. But Trayvon might have thought so and that's why he ran from his pursuer instead of calling 911. The cops aren't doing a good job of proving him wrong.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:18 PM (bwV72)

810 gain, that autopsy report would help to see what injuries if any besides the gsw Martin had and in what position both he and the shooter were in.

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 05:16 PM (kqXHe)

It's been almost a month I'm sure prosecutors have seen this. They told the police that there was no basis for an arrest even for manslaughter in this case.

When I am on the same side as law enforcement and Al Sharpton and Louis Farakhan are on the other side, I'm pretty comfortable.

Posted by: Hedgehog at March 23, 2012 01:18 PM (3jGS1)

811 Anyway, If you look up the crime stats for Sanford you will see that they are rather high statistically for a small community in central Florida.

We could say that about all of Congressional District 3, which includes Sanford, Parramore, and Pine Hills.

Posted by: weew at March 23, 2012 01:20 PM (ElfHn)

812

Let's pause for some observations:

Looking at the picture of Zimmerman, he is not a white Hispanic. I would hazard a guess that he is Latino, of some Amerind ancestry.

So this is not a white- black situation, but a brown-black.

The MFM and the regime want to stir up racial animosity from the comments here, they are succeeding.

And now back to the blog.

Posted by: seamrog at March 23, 2012 01:20 PM (JKSUw)

813 If the same logic that got Jerome Ersland the Pharmacist a life sentence is used in this case, Zimmerman is fooked.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 01:20 PM (A2cTV)

814 Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 05:18 PM (bwV72)

Stop shooting your mouth off.

You are speaking from a position of total ignorance, yet you pontificate about what Trayvon "might have thought," and what the cops aren't doing correctly.

Come back when you have facts.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 23, 2012 01:21 PM (nEUpB)

815 You white, pink azz, nazi m*ther fookers killing our beautiful black peacocks! You can't have my feathers, white boy!!!1!!!

Posted by: Jonatha "muthafker" Carr at March 23, 2012 01:23 PM (kqXHe)

816 [Stop shooting your mouth off. ] Some are suggesting by their comments that Trayvon must have been up to no good since he didn't call the cops. I'm just saying there could be other reasons, namely paranoia, which having a stranger tracking you all over a neighborhood probably wasn't helping.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:23 PM (bwV72)

817 Is this going to be like long bow vs. cross bow?

Posted by: Jonatha at March 23, 2012 01:25 PM (kqXHe)

818 [Is this going to be like long bow vs. cross bow?] Long bows aren't suited to alleys. That's a cross bow situation all day long.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:26 PM (bwV72)

819

This shit happens like clockwork.

The usual gang of idiots have come marching out from the woodwork to scream accusations of Â“racismÂ” and Â“social justiceÂ”.

Sharpton doesn't want violence, but he's more than glad to throw a grenade into mix and watch the explosion. ThatÂ’s the kind of shit he does best. Like he did with Tawana Brawley, the Crown Heights accident, and the Duke Lacross players.

With a name like George Zimmerman, the leftwing race-baiters thought for sure they had themselves a bona fide, knuckle-dragginÂ’, toothless, KKK member who just got his sheets out of the cleaners. Turns out, George Zimmerman's father is white, his mother is Latina, and he has black relatives.

That sound you hear is the bubble bursting on the LeftÂ’s wet dream.

Karen Finney, filling in for Martin Bashir on MSNBC, blamed Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum for Â‘creating the environmentÂ’ that lead to Trayvon MartinÂ’s death. Crazy Louie Farrakhan pitched his two cents on Twitter with a thinly-veiled threat that Â“the law of retaliation may very well be appliedÂ”. And of course, B. Hussein who never lets a good crisis go to waste, chimed in with: Â”If I had a son, heÂ’d look just like Trayvon.Â”

Really, Barry? I envision something like Steve Urkel.

The leftwingnuts are so predictable. When Gabrielle Giffords was shot and when Joseph Stack flew his plane into the Austin Federal bulding, the frothing moonbats blurted out obscene incriminations against the Tea Party, Republicans, and anyone who spoke out against ObamaCare, followed by hate rhetoric and death threats.

When racism results in hate crimes against white people, Sharpton and the rest of the race-baiting fuckwads are nowhere in sight.

The next time thereÂ’s a racially-motivated attack against a white person, I expect to see every one of those assholes marching in the streets, demanding justice, and intimidating the families of the perpetrators.

I wonÂ’t hold my fucking breath.

Posted by: SFC MAC at March 23, 2012 01:26 PM (jvkft)

820

Actually, the "fucking coons" audio is pretty clear. Right after Trayvon starts to run, Zimmerman mutters either "fucking coons" or "fucking punks." Probably "fucking coons." Recording here (CNN plays it a bunch of times starting at 1:30):

< Google CNN Trayvon racial epithet, since this primitive HQ ewok cave won't let me post links. >

I actually think the timing of the remark suggests that Zimmerman is NOT racist. He only says it after the black teen shows what in court would be called evidence of consciousness of guilt. First Trayvon comes towards Zimmerman (suggesting aggression) then he runs away (suggesting guilt).

Only then does he use the racial epithet, indicating that it is a response to Trayvon's actions, not to his race, like calling an overweight adversary a "fat fuck," or an underweight adversary a "skinny little worm," or a girl adversary a skank, or... well you get the idea.

(That's what Rush should have called Fluke: a skank. It's almost alliterative. And it doesn't mean the dreaded promiscuous. Maybe a skank WANTS to be promiscuous, but nobody will have her. Hey, no aspersions on your chastity, miss $1000 of contraceptives per year.)

So then the question arises, does the fact that somebody used a racial epithet under his breath a few mean that he loses his right to defend himself when a few minutes later the object of that epithet is on top of him beating him?

Pretty sure that's a "no," but my guess is that this is what the case is going to come down legally. The evidence will show that Treyvon DID initiate an assault on Zimmerman, and the question will be whether the racial epithet somehow makes Zimmerman's following of Treyvon an act of aggression, stripping him of his right to claim self-defense.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 01:27 PM (kTTUz)

821 I don't think in three months we'll even remember the name Trayvan. This is a tempest in a teapot, and the more this Zimmerman guy ends up looking like the good guy the faster it will get buried.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 23, 2012 01:27 PM (r4wIV)

822 If I had to guess I'd bet supercore, soothsayer, MiketheMoose, etc. Do not posses a CCH or CCW license. Not that it makes a difference other than perspective.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 01:27 PM (A2cTV)

823 "There are hundreds more. Hundreds. Some guy and his girl leaving a restaurant jumped by "urban youths." A guy minding his own business knocked off his bike and beaten, just for thrills. TONS of race-motivated violence from black teenagers on just about everyone around them, especially whites. Flash mobs robbing stores, beating guys on subway platforms while the rest film it and look on."

Yep. And not just in America. Happens all around the world.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 01:27 PM (dDUnD)

824 Good post Ace.

I'm not sure what happened that night we will have to wait for all the facts to come out. Unfortunately we will never know the real truth because the usual suspects have whipped up such racial animus that they will have their pound of flesh no matter what the outcome.

SCOAMF just had to open he mouth today further inflaming tensions all over the country but especially in Sanford. This was not a good idea but when has the SCOAMF had a good idea? It just added gasoline to an impending explosion. Its going to be a long, hot contentious summer.

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 01:28 PM (iYbLN)

825 I'm just saying there could be other reasons, namely paranoia, which having a stranger tracking you all over a neighborhood probably wasn't helping.

What was 'Obama's son he never had' doing in a gated ca-mune-it-teh to begin with?

Posted by: Cast Iron at March 23, 2012 01:29 PM (EL+OC)

826 If Obama had a son heÂ’d look like Trayvon Â… Zimmerman would have been gunned down by multiple Secret Service agents ... assuming that Zimmerman had tried to stop the motorcade.

Posted by: Attack Watch at March 23, 2012 01:30 PM (e8kgV)

827 Funny you should ask. From the FL CCW website: Q. What if I see a crime being committed? A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:31 PM (bwV72)

828 [What was 'Obama's son he never had' doing in a gated ca-mune-it-teh to begin with?] As I understand it, His father lived there and he was visiting.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:32 PM (bwV72)

829 "First Trayvon comes towards Zimmerman (suggesting aggression) then he runs away (suggesting guilt)."

Good God man. My first instinct (also training) would be to advance toward the guy following me. But then he judged his physical ability sufficient to run, and did that. Then Zimmerman got in his truck and followed. Then got out, Trayvon engaged him (or vice versa), and Zimmerman lost that confrontation, and shot him.

NO I do not know for a fact that is what happened. But it's at least as plausible as your parenthetical comments.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 01:32 PM (dDUnD)

830 Whoever started the hoodie craze should be sent to island in chains.

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 01:34 PM (iYbLN)

831 Food for thought: If there were multiple breakins within a gated community, then someone who lives within the community is probably doing them.

Posted by: Bubba at March 23, 2012 01:34 PM (Ifa6n)

832 supercore doesn't have a CCW and also likes to post non applicable information.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 01:34 PM (A2cTV)

833 http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:34 PM (bwV72)

834

This thread's still going?

Okay. Cool. .....Does anyone know if Trayvon lives in that neighborhood where he ended up being shot? ....Is that where his dad lives?

I was just wondering 'why he was there'.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 01:35 PM (4GgJq)

835 I'm still thinking of Sharpton's clip that Hannity plays. It frightened me cause it really did sound like a lynch mob. Nothing good can come out of an incited mob. The mob mentality creates more problems than it solves. It would be better if the black white and hispanic leaders were all on the same page. It would be good if they were asking people not to jump to conclusions before the full facts are know. It would be good if the MSM would stop trying to make this into something it may not be.

There are so many Americans who have been walking around with a heavy heart since this came to light. They are all shapes sizes and colors. They are all upset because a kid was killed. I don't think most people see that it's a black kid that was killed, they just see a kid was killed. It could be anyone's kid, black, white, hispanic, anyone's kid. And they are starting to ask why that is so. What has changed in the last couple of years that there is so much fear and suspicion among us? What has changed that has made everyone wary of everyone else? That's the discussion we ought to be having, what has changed and how can we fix it right now!

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 01:35 PM (oZfic)

836 "Food for thought: If there were multiple breakins within a gated community, then someone who lives within the community is probably doing them."

Maybe. Could also have a surreptitious set of gate keys, help from a security company, or what have you. I'd be curious how much surveillance tape there is, etc.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 01:36 PM (dDUnD)

837 His Dad's girlfriend lives there.

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 01:36 PM (A2cTV)

838

Ah. Okay, sorry....didn't read No.842.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 01:36 PM (4GgJq)

839 Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 05:35 PM (4GgJq)

someone up thread said his dad lived in the neighborhood. I am trying to check that now.

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 01:37 PM (oZfic)

840 "Ah. Okay, sorry....didn't read No.842."

That, and it's a free country.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 01:38 PM (dDUnD)

841 Oh goody....'curious' is on it.

Posted by: Tami at March 23, 2012 01:38 PM (X6akg)

842 Maybe Zimmerman had just watched a rerun of the Seinfeld finale where they were convicted of failing to aid a victim of a crime in progress

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 01:38 PM (Y+DPZ)

843 And the commies have already started on the gun control train.

http://is.gd/PfF3ze

Black Democrat in SC wants to repeal parts of "stand your ground" law in SC.

Posted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 01:38 PM (YdQQY)

844 it's a "day of rest"

http://tinyurl.com/4nbl5gs

Wait, this is even more stupid than I had first thought.

brb

Posted by: soothsayer at March 23, 2012 01:38 PM (84JKc)

845 [supercore doesn't have a CCW and also likes to post non applicable information.] I don't have a CCW because I can't afford to purchase, train with, and become qualified properly with a weapon at this time. Being licensed and knowing the law in my own state are separate and non-mutually exclusive.

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:38 PM (bwV72)

846

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 05:35 PM (4GgJq)

A local radio host has had Orlando media types and other principals as guests lately. IIRC Trayvon was visiting a relative, not sure if the relative lived in the gated community. However it was stated a few times that the racial makeup of the development was 50% white, 25% black, 25% latino.

He was in the ORlando area for a basketball event.

Posted by: kallisto at March 23, 2012 01:39 PM (jm/9g)

847 849

What has changed? One word.

Obama

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 01:39 PM (iYbLN)

848 Posted by: Tami at March 23, 2012 05:38 PM (X6akg)

If you treat people the way you treat me on this blog in real life I guess you are know as "the fat biotch".

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 01:39 PM (oZfic)

849 Could someone tell me where it's reported that this is a "gated community" ?

Sounds like more assumptions to me

Posted by: kbdabear at March 23, 2012 01:39 PM (Y+DPZ)

850 This note from the "Iownthe world" site suggests why Trayvon was away from home: he under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A laywer for TrayvonÂ’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 23, 2012 01:40 PM (ceyqu)

851 >>>Stay in the vehicle or manslaughter? Those are your two choices? Yes that is part of your responsibility in having a CCW is making reasonable effort to ensure you won't have to use it. And being a non-uniformed guy following someone at night on foot is not good decision that keeps you clear of danger. Your looking for it. If you want to argue he would have done what he did without a gun fine make a credible argument that's a reasonable thing for him to do. Having a CCW doesnt make you mini Gman.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 23, 2012 01:40 PM (MvjmI)

852 I have to object to the idea that Z would not be justifi4ed in shooting M because "I'm not sure a beating, without more, would qualify as that.". If someone is beating on you, you have no idea if they are going to stop. You don't have the option of sitting back and just waiting it out. Wait too long and you are too damaged to make the choice anymore. "beaten to death" sound familiar from any news articles? Anyone been on the receiving of a good beating? Willing to take one if you had the option of forcing the other guy to stop? A beating is the quintessential violation of your personal property, you. If you can pull a gun to stop a robbery, then you can pull one to stop getting beaten.

Posted by: Kyle Kiernan at March 23, 2012 01:42 PM (/AEUY)

853 863 Could someone tell me where it's reported that this is a "gated community" ?

Sounds like more assumptions to me

"Gated community" in this case means "apartment complex with security gates and fences."

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at March 23, 2012 01:42 PM (e0xKF)

854 MiketheMoose do you have a CCW?

Posted by: polynikes at March 23, 2012 01:42 PM (A2cTV)

855 Posted by: FenelonSpoke at March 23, 2012 05:40 PM (ceyqu)

In the link I posted up thread they said he was in an area of the school where he wasn't supposed to be. I thought the teacher's lounge or something like that cause when I went to high school the only area off limits to us was the teacher's lounge and the principal's office, like behind the barrier set up by the people in the principal's office to keep you on one side and them on the other.

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 01:42 PM (oZfic)

856 [However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.] Not necessarily. I knew kids when I was in school that would get detention for skipping class, skip detention and be sent to in-school suspension, skip that, and be put on out of school suspension. Like that was a punishment or something...

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:42 PM (bwV72)

857 If you treat people the way you treat me on this blog in real life I guess you are know as "the fat biotch".

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 05:39 PM (oZfic)

Do you have an English translation for that?

Posted by: Tami at March 23, 2012 01:44 PM (X6akg)

858

Thanks 814. That URL nails it:

http://tinyurl.com/7z7bdqo

Police detectives report witness confirmation that Trayvon was the aggressor, coming at Zimmerman and attacking him. As for who cried out for help, Trayvon's father told police that it was NOT Trayvon calling out for help on the 911 tape.

So it will all come down to the fact that Zimmerman muttered "fucking coons" under his breath after Trayvon first came at him and then ran away.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 01:45 PM (kTTUz)

859 polynikes, can you tell me what part of the law I don't understand since I don't have a CCW? Because right now you sound like you're saying, "You don't know, man. You've haven't been in the shit, man."

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 01:45 PM (bwV72)

860

Thanks for all the replies, ya'll.

857 And the commies have already started on the gun control train.

http://is.gd/PfF3ze

Black Democrat in SC wants to repeal parts of "stand your ground" law in SC.

Wow, Vic. That didn't take long, did it.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 01:46 PM (4GgJq)

861 What's the over/under on when the Westboro Baptist shows up ? I say before the weekends out.

Posted by: Cast Iron at March 23, 2012 01:47 PM (EL+OC)

862 Wow, Vic. That didn't take long, did it.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 05:46 PM (4GgJq)

-------------------

That and blatant racism is why the MFM is pushing it.

Posted by: Vic at March 23, 2012 01:48 PM (YdQQY)

863 If you treat people the way you treat me on this blog in real life I guess you are know as "the fat biotch".

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 05:39 PM (oZfic)

Shut the fuck up Tidy Cat.

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 01:50 PM (iYbLN)

864 >>>Not necessarily. I knew kids when I was in school that would get detention for skipping class, skip detention and be sent to in-school suspension, skip that, and be put on out of school suspension. Like that was a punishment or something... Posted by: supercore23 at Who cares! This isn't about you or your friends. Go find the school district's disciplinary handbook online. It specifically lists what offenses merit a 1 day or 5 day or 10 day suspension. This kid did not do something minor.

Posted by: Jonatha at March 23, 2012 01:52 PM (kqXHe)

865 Something serious at school warrants a five day suspension. You don't get that punishment for sitting in the teacher's lounge especially nowadays when no one wants to hurt little Billy's self-esteem.

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 01:54 PM (iYbLN)

866 You know, this thing is an example of why I have been so fucking disappointed in Barack Obama.

I didn't vote for him. But when he became President, I thought -- I hoped, anyway -- that he could be the one to turn things around. To genuinely put an end to the race-hustling. He could have smacked down the Sharptons and told black Americans "Okay, no more excuses. I'm in the fucking White House. The Man is a brother now."

But he didn't. He retreated into Southside Chicago racial-grievance politics, and as a result race relations in this country are worse than they've been since 1970.

Fuck him. Fuck him for being a lazy, selfish, opportunistic son of a bitch.

Posted by: Trimegistus at March 23, 2012 01:57 PM (v9Kjt)

867 Well, we've lost part of our lynch mob, but supercore23 appears to have at least ten times he lynch-power of the others, so we can still get this thing done!

Posted by: Louis Farrakhan at March 23, 2012 01:58 PM (ggRof)

868 880

Well put, well said.

Race relations haven't been this tense in decades.

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 01:59 PM (iYbLN)

869 >>>MiketheMoose do you have a CCW?

No. But I do openly carry often IAW law here in the Golden State, which kinda makes you a walking dictionary of what is allowed what isn't. I've studied it and studied it. When in public you have some pretty stringent rules on self defense that will get you off clean from all criminal responsibility should someone be dead by your weapon. Number 1 is, if you could have reasonably avoided the situation without harm to yourself, or your property, (Not a retreat law, but a do not advance trouble law) you are going down for Man 2. If a reasonable person would have thought what you were doing as threatening harm to them, Man 1. If you pursued a confrontation out of malice, Murder 2, if you planned to do so, Murder 1.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 01:59 PM (0q2P7)

870 Any chance at all that Martin did NOT have a cell phone?

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 02:00 PM (u50z0)

871 Who started the confrontation is not important. Nor are #2 pencils, gynecological exams, muscovy ducks, and water fountains important.

Posted by: urandom at March 23, 2012 02:00 PM (0d0K7)

872 "Number 1 is, if you could have reasonably avoided the situation without harm to yourself, or your property, (Not a retreat law, but a do not advance trouble law) you are going down for Man 2. If a reasonable person would have thought what you were doing as threatening harm to them, Man 1. If you pursued a confrontation out of malice, Murder 2, if you planned to do so, Murder 1."

So you're thinking in the golden state, Z would be charged with Murder 2?

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 02:02 PM (dDUnD)

873 I can't wait until this happens:

http://tinyurl.com/85cfr43

It's gonna be high comedy.

Posted by: RarestRX at March 23, 2012 02:03 PM (9ct4e)

874

843: My parenthetical remarks about Zimmerman's initial encounter with Martin (that Martin's approach to Zimmerman suggested aggression and his flight suggested guilt) was not to interpret the actual meaning of Martin's actions. The subject was how Zimmerman might reasonably interpret them, to assess his state of mind at the time that he made his "fucking coons" (or "fucking punks") remark under his breath.

There is pretty good evidence that Martin did NOT run out of guilt, but because his girlfriend on the phone advised him to run. But that is irrelevant to Zimmerman's state of mind, since he could not hear Martin's phone call.

Tell me 843, would your training have you approach and assault a person who is obviously keeping tabs on you from a distance and is not trying to approach you?

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 02:03 PM (kTTUz)

875 [Well, we've lost part of our lynch mob, but supercore23 appears to have at least ten times he lynch-power of the others, so we can still get this thing done!] Because playing devils advocate for the unarmed black kid shot to death in a gated community in the South is practically the definition of Lynch Mob. Seriously guy?

Posted by: supercore23 at March 23, 2012 02:04 PM (bwV72)

876 880 Did you really think it would help? I knew it would be a minimum of 4 years of finger waving. I figured that things would really blow up because it would be to the president's advantage to stir the pot.

Posted by: dagny at March 23, 2012 02:05 PM (u50z0)

877 "My parenthetical remarks about Zimmerman's initial encounter with Martin (that Martin's approach to Zimmerman suggested aggression and his flight suggested guilt) was not to interpret the actual meaning of Martin's actions. The subject was how Zimmerman might reasonably interpret them, to assess his state of mind at the time that he made his "fucking coons" (or "fucking punks") remark under his breath."

Yeah, thanks for explaining. I obviously don't think Zimmerman's interpretation is reasonable. Black people probably lived in the complex and for that matter, white people know black people and they visit. Suspicion is one thing. Stalking after being advised by the police not to and eventually following, getting into a confrontation with, and shooting is another.

Also, look at that kid. May have seemed different in the dark, but he's a smiling good-natured looking kid. I don't think that means he couldn't have been violent -- he was when cornered, provoked, or angered near the end -- but I definitely think the world suffered a loss at his shooting.

\'Tell me 843, would your training have you approach and assault a person who is obviously keeping tabs on you from a distance and is not trying to approach you?"

It would depend partly on distance. Above a certain range, unarmed, no -- escape and evasion would be the order of the day (and apparently this was tried when he ran). Wthin a certain distance, if I feared for my life, I'd close with and dominate my opponent.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 02:10 PM (dDUnD)

878 Why does Obama think it is relevant that if he had a son, "he'd look like Trayvon"? Does he think that people who look like him warrant special treatment? WTF?

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 02:11 PM (kTTUz)

879 890: See, that's where I disagree. Stirring the pot just shows what a stupid fucking idiot Obama really is.

We've got a black President. If (or, more likely now, WHEN) we get another "long hot summer" of race riots and violence, how are his precious moderate voters going to react? The middle-class white women he's trying desperately to scare with all this "Republicans want to steal your VAGINA!" crap? They're not going to reward him, that's for sure.

Posted by: Trimegistus at March 23, 2012 02:13 PM (v9Kjt)

880

892 Why does Obama think it is relevant that if he had a son, "he'd look like Trayvon"? Does he think that people who look like him warrant special treatment? WTF?

The parents of Trayvon came out today and responded that they "are honored" by him saying this.

Barky has a 'racial martyr' here, with this boy. ....Next step, is the deification of him.

Posted by: wheatie at March 23, 2012 02:16 PM (4GgJq)

881

"If I feared for my life, I'd close with and dominate my opponent."

I would think it would be pretty obvious to a black kid in a white neighborhood that somebody following him at a distance was keeping an eye on him to make sure he wasn't committing crimes. He would have no reason to fear for his life.

Attacking a person who is keeping tabs on you? THAT is dangerous, as events proved, but it cannot justify the attack.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 02:19 PM (kTTUz)

882 >>>Z would be charged with Murder 2?

He could possibly be due to the muffled racial epithet, possibly. I don't think he pursued out of a particular malice looking for confrontation. But I do think he put the possibility of nabbing someone who is possibly guilty way ahead of what was prudent to accomplish his goal of crime prevention and avoid a violent confrontation. To what extent is the question. Just reckless, or recklessly stupid.

Things that are prudent and unknown. When he decided to go back to his truck, did he retrace his steps straight back, or circle around and take a different route? When Martin ran away, did Zimmerman attempt to pursue at anything faster than a walk? And at the very last when he was attacked did he ever try to inform Martin he was neighborhood watch? All of these establish how much responsibility Martin takes away from Zimmerman in this problem.

The more reasonable Martin's actions are the more culpable Zimmerman is for having shot him.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 02:21 PM (0q2P7)

883 Why does Obama think it is relevant that if he had a son, "he'd look like Trayvon"? Does he think that people who look like him warrant special treatment? WTF?

Posted by: Alex Rawls at March 23, 2012 06:11 PM (kTTUz)

That was a warning shot to investigators.

Posted by: Tami at March 23, 2012 02:22 PM (X6akg)

884

Wow there is a lot of BS floating around today. Zimmerman had called the police, he was on the phone with the operator who told him not to pursue Trayvon. He obviously did unless the 140lb Trayvon yanked a man 100 lbs heavier than him out of an SUV. Second Trayvon was reported as a suspicious character, NO CRIME WAS COMMITTED OR WITNESSED!

I know, some of you might say Zimmerman thought the kid had Pop Rocks and Pepsi, a lethal combo, but in fact it was Ice Tea and Skittles. Sounds silly doesn't it, that's how stupid some of you sound when you talk about the kid being suspended from school!

If you tried restrain me while I was walking home from 7 eleven, I might just beat your ass too! If you think I am suspicious character, call the police and let them do their job. Granted they dropped the ball in Trayvon's case.

I don't care about the ass munch of a President or the poverty pimps trying to rabble rouse. If they start the violence, the next round of shootings will be justified! The stand your ground law is fine, the castle law is fine. Zimmerman needs to face justice, regardless of the Dem's turning the tragedy into a political opportunity. Gabby Giffords anyone???

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 02:24 PM (5xuOJ)

885 >>>He would have no reason to fear for his life.

You obviously don't live anywhere rough. If you start getting followed while walking at night, alone, you have plenty to fear. And since you want to bring up race, "obvious to a black kid in a white neighborhood" I have to note that Zimmerman is not what I expect a neighborhood watch to look like. And following me on foot is not what I expect a neighborhood watch to do.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 02:27 PM (0q2P7)

886 "The more reasonable Martin's actions are the more culpable Zimmerman is for having shot him.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 06:21 PM "

Trayvon was minding his own business when a man who had called the police. The police were on the way, you get that part right! Your talking out of your ass as no crime was witnessed! The incident should have ended there, the police stop Trayvon and ask a few questions. Skittles and ice tea, they take him home alive, you dumbass!

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 02:32 PM (5xuOJ)

887

"If you tried restrain me while I was walking home from 7 eleven, I might just beat your ass too!"

There is no evidence that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin. Just the opposite: witnesses verify that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

It seems that Zimmerman was just trying to keep tabs on Martin so the police could find him. Would you beat someone's ass for that too?

That may be a serious irritant. Who wants to talk to the police? But it was not a crime on Zimmerman's part.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 02:34 PM (kTTUz)

888 If I didn't fear for my life, I'd make damn sure I didn't walk home if someone was following me. To a public place to meet the police or to a police station, yeah.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 02:37 PM (dDUnD)

889

the "law of retaliation" "may be applied."

Hey, Calypso Louie, don't forget which segment of the population actually goes to shooting ranges and practices hitting what they aim at.

Posted by: Glenmore at March 23, 2012 02:38 PM (EuPtY)

890

"NO CRIME WAS COMMITTED OR WITNESSED!"

Martin was witnessed attacking and beating Zimmerman. That's from the police detectives:

http://tinyurl.com/7z7bdqo

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 02:38 PM (kTTUz)

891 "You obviously don't live anywhere rough. If you start getting followed while walking at night, alone, you have plenty to fear. And since you want to bring up race, "obvious to a black kid in a white neighborhood" I have to note that Zimmerman is not what I expect a neighborhood watch to look like. And following me on foot is not what I expect a neighborhood watch to do."

I agree.

*Especially* that being followed late at night is going to make one fear for their safety.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 02:38 PM (dDUnD)

892 According to Wikipedia, it hasn't been confirmed that Z-man said "coons" or "coon."

Posted by: Beez at March 23, 2012 02:40 PM (QTVh2)

893 It wasn't really "late at night." It was like 7:30 pm or something.

Posted by: Beez at March 23, 2012 02:41 PM (QTVh2)

894

I agree with Mike that it matters a lot whether Zimmerman tried to inform Martin that he was Neighborhood Watch and that the police were on their way. Reports say there was a loud argument in the yard, so it is likely that such things were said. Hopefully that comes out.

If Zimmerman did identify himself before Martin attacked, then Martin had no reason to fear anything but an interview with the police, which is no justification for assault.

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 02:46 PM (kTTUz)

895 It wasn't really "late at night." It was like 7:30 pm or something.

A lot of assaults take place in the daytime. Certainly, I can remember ome.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 02:48 PM (dDUnD)

896 Is Obammy a white Kenyan?

Posted by: Marybel at March 23, 2012 02:48 PM (QGwv0)

897 Is Obama a "white black "?

Posted by: abu Daniel at March 23, 2012 02:49 PM (KnOP9)

898

The man who lives in the nearest condo said that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, on the ground in his yard, beating him. That seems to me to indicate that Zimmerman had reason to fear Martin intended to harm him.

It is possible, as so many of you have suggested, that Zimmerman somehow brought this on himself. But remember, Zimmerman has been doing this neighborhood watch thing for a while. He has called the cops a lot. He hasn't attacked anybody, or tried to arrest anybody. He watches and he calls the cops.

Posted by: Jerome at March 23, 2012 02:55 PM (eQa5p)

899 413 Blacks name their kids after a plate of spaghetti if it sounds good.

A friend of mine (black) told me about a girl she knew in her youth whose mama named her "Menage a Trois " because it sounded pretty. True story.

Posted by: Grandma Mimi at March 23, 2012 03:11 PM (GHxIi)

900

"Martin was witnessed attacking and beating Zimmerman. That's from the police detectives: "

You mean they witness Trayvon winning, they didn't witness who started anything. Zimmerman admits to pursing Trayvon on tape, Hannity just played it. That means Trayvon ran away and at that point Zimmerman should have allowed the police to handle the situation. He also could have monitored Trayvon from his car.

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 03:12 PM (5xuOJ)

901

"You mean they witness Trayvon winning, they didn't witness who started anything."

Wrong. The witnesses saw Trayvon initiate the attack.

http://tinyurl.com/7z7bdqo

Posted by: Alec Rawls at March 23, 2012 03:25 PM (kTTUz)

902

If Zimmerman called the police *so* many times in the past, he could not have just been calling them about black people he'd seen. He had to have been calling for all kinds of "suspicious" (in his mind) activity, and chances are, for ALL different ethnic backgropunds. Chances are that he'd even called the cops about white people, don't you think? The guy was paranoid it seems, but not just about blacks.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 03:52 PM (KL49F)

903 Why do my posts show up with missing spaces?? They are there when I type, but they disappear when it posts! I make enough typos on my own without "help". It's been happening for weeks now

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 03:53 PM (KL49F)

904 Oh, and thank you, Ace, for such a great, well thought-out post! BRILLIANT about how O says his son would look like Trayvon but not the black boys who lit fire to that white boy!

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 03:55 PM (KL49F)

905 Was the gun used by Z a "walked gun" from F & F? Just curious. If so, he has nothing to worry about. all paperwork will disappear.

Posted by: The dude at March 23, 2012 03:59 PM (3bQwx)

906 >>>The guy was paranoid it seems, but not just about blacks. Posted by: Aslan's Girl a 8 burglaries, 9 thefts, and 1 shooting in that neighborhood in the past year. He's hardly paranoid...

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 04:06 PM (kqXHe)

907

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 08:06 PM (kqXHe)

Thank you, I didn't know.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 04:08 PM (KL49F)

908

O/T but to add to my missing space post, the ampersand never shows up either.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 04:10 PM (KL49F)

909

Posted by: mike at March 23, 2012 08:06 PM (kqXHe)

I thought this was a gated community? My goodness, so much crime. And yes, I need to read the details of this case more.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 04:11 PM (KL49F)

910 I read the kid leaned into the SUV and THEN Zimmerman got out - possibly as a result of being yanked out, or just to defend himself.

Posted by: Sarahw at March 23, 2012 04:52 PM (LYwCh)

911 Random, the pictures shown are years old. Maybe he's not so smiling and good natured looking anymore. He did just get kicked out of school for a week. It probably wasn't for smiling pleasantly.

Posted by: Sarahw at March 23, 2012 04:56 PM (LYwCh)

912

Wrong again Alec, the witnesses themselves say on live tv they came out after the confrontation. Look it up on youtube as for some reason this site won't take my url. Listen to the actual tape as the sanford police seem to want to cover their butts.

Yeah Sarah, a 140lb kid leaned in an grabbed an armed 200lb man out of two ton vehicle. Right!!!!!!!

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 05:03 PM (5xuOJ)

913

If I'm on my back, armed, and someone is beating on my face, whatever I'm armed with, knife, gun, or bazooka, is being used.

Punched can and have killed.

Posted by: Gospace at March 23, 2012 05:08 PM (OKVse)

914 Shut the fuck up Tidy Cat.

Posted by: mpfs at March 23, 2012 05:50 PM (iYbLN)

back at ya, "sweetheart"

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 05:25 PM (oZfic)

915 Is it possible when they were on the ground fighting that Zimmerman might have reached for his gun and that trayvon might have reacted by trying to take the gun and it might have gone off by accident in the ensuing struggle?

Posted by: my heart still belongs to herman cain at March 23, 2012 05:28 PM (oZfic)

916 "927 If I'm on my back, armed, and someone is beating on my face, whatever I'm armed with, knife, gun, or bazooka, is being used.
Punched can and have killed.

Posted by: Gospace at March 23, 2012 09:08 PM (OKVse) "

If you stalked and intiated the conflict you then go before a jury for murder and being a total pussy. Don't go looking for trouble and your less likely to find it! The 911 operator tells you not to follow the guy, don't follow him! Wait for the police in your SUV with your GUN!

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 05:29 PM (5xuOJ)

917 Fine piece, Ace. Some thoughts on the prez ... When the president says Â“You know, if I had a son, heÂ’d look like Trayvon.Â” he's also storing up the emotion of: "You know, that man killed someone who looked like MY son." My guess would be that the language was crafted carefully. And it can only fuel the fire being stoked by others. It's clever in that it appears sympathetic ... But it's not especially subtle. Al Sharpton and others will know how to use this kind of statement. We may have a real problem on our hands here ...

Posted by: Frankns at March 23, 2012 05:47 PM (r4fN5)

918 ... sorry "stirring up the emotion of"

Posted by: Frankns at March 23, 2012 05:48 PM (r4fN5)

919 "Random, the pictures shown are years old. Maybe he's not so smiling and good natured looking anymore. He did just get kicked out of school for a week. It probably wasn't for smiling pleasantly."

K, I didn't know that.

I was kicked out of school for cutting class to go to the library that interested me. For real.

So, while maybe it was violence related, I'm aware it could have been things other than violence that got him suspended.

Anyway, following someone is probably a bad idea, in general.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 05:51 PM (bFbIY)

920 ^and study things

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 05:51 PM (bFbIY)

921 "Why do my posts show up with missing spaces?? They are there when I type, but they disappear when it posts! I make enough typos on my own without "help". It's been happening for weeks now"

I don't know. It does that to me sometimes. Sometimes it strips away line breaks. It is also *always* stripping away all HTML tags so I don't even bother anymore. I used to be able to format and link, but no more.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 05:56 PM (bFbIY)

922 "Al Sharpton and others will know how to use this kind of statement.

We may have a real problem on our hands here ...

Posted by: Frankns at March 23, 2012 09:47 PM (r4fN5) "

If ever the metorite of death fell from the heavens, I do wish it would strike Al Sharpton, the problem is it would probably bounce off his perm and smite some innocent!

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 05:58 PM (5xuOJ)

923 "I'm not sure a beating, without more, would qualify as that. Seems to me it has to be more serious. A beating doesn't typically result in death or great bodily harm. Could. But usually doesn't." There have been multiple court cases where one punch justifies self defense.... and as long as "beaten to death" appears in the cause of death box it should. Oh, and Trayvon is walking around a gated community. There's a fence and a gate to help make sure that only residents or those invited in are allowed. In other words, it's a BORDER... and checks to make sure you aren't trespassing should be standard at this border or the US.

Posted by: SDN at March 23, 2012 06:05 PM (nsKxe)

924 I don't think Obama planned to say the deceased was like a son to him (if the Rs had a spine that's exactly how they'd formulate it). He's so smart he can just wing speech themes and stop rising seas. And stuff. The media are stoking the confusion on this death for the eyeballs. That's why there are so many different sets of contradictory 'facts' out there.

Posted by: East Bay Jay at March 23, 2012 06:21 PM (svwGR)

925 What a sad story! I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened, but I'm willing to give the cops and the prosecutors the benefit of the doubt: if there isn't enough evidence to arrest, charge, prosecute and convict, then that's just how the cookie crumbles. Lucky for Zimmerman.

Posted by: Jordan at March 23, 2012 06:47 PM (RSG1I)

926 "[snip]We may have a real problem on our hands here ...

Posted by: Frankns at March 23, 2012 09:47 PM (r4fN5) "

I agree. The MSM is going to try to make this "IT", IYKWIMAITYD.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at March 23, 2012 07:09 PM (KL49F)

927 "I'm not sure a beating, without more, would qualify as that. Seems to me it has to be more serious. A beating doesn't typically result in death or great bodily harm. Could. But usually doesn't."

If one is being beaten, as in is losing and being battered, what is your plan to stop them from seriously injuring you?

Wait it out?

Hope they don't feel like it?

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 07:17 PM (bFbIY)

928 "What a sad story! I doubt we'll ever know exactly what happened, but I'm willing to give the cops and the prosecutors the benefit of the doubt:

Posted by: Jordan at March 23, 2012 10:47 PM (RSG1I) "

Wow, your easy, I am sure if it was you son or loved one you would just lie down and accept it. He goes to the store for skittles an ice tea, gets a bullet to the chest thrown in. Somehow I don't believe you!

Oh wait, throw in almost every witness is contradicting the police reports along with the 911 tapes. Now I really don't believe you. In fact we have a lot of liars and rumor mongers in the thread. I searched for witness statements on line and none of them confirm some of the crap that was claimed. They resort to the police statements and we know the police always get it right, even if the actual witnesses say something different. Look for yourself, there all over youtube!

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 08:02 PM (5xuOJ)

929 "The more reasonable Martin's actions are the more culpable Zimmerman is for having shot him.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose finally remembers why he's here at March 23, 2012 06:21 PM "

>>> Trayvon was minding his own business when a man who had called the police. The police were on the way, you get that part right!Your talking out of your ass as no crime was witnessed! The incident should have ended there, the police stop Trayvon and ask a few questions. Skittles and ice tea, they take him home alive, youdumbass!

>>> Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 06:32 PM (5xuOJ)

He was making your point before you typed anything.

Posted by: Random at March 23, 2012 08:34 PM (bFbIY)

930 "He was making your point before you typed anything.

Posted by: Random at March 24, 2012 12:34 AM (bFbIY) "

Your correct, I retract my dumbas remark on Mikey and apply it to Alec Rawls! Good work Random, but I don't think Trayvon was culpable of anything except no having a chance to tell his side of the story. My sincere apologies to Mikey the Moose!

Posted by: Justus Brothas at March 23, 2012 09:46 PM (5xuOJ)

931 Some of you are so simple minded! It is wrong all the way around and I just wish that Zimmerman would have left the situation alone. @Fat AL you know how to comment on this website so learn how to search the internet for information on Travon. Travon was small build with a baby face. Zimmerman was at least 100 pounds bigger than him. His school said that he was a good student with good grades and no criminal histury. Zimmermen on the other hand does have criminal histury! Every ethnic group has criminal paterns. Whites serial killers, rapist, drug addicts. Alot of whites are taught as a child to hate anyone that does not look like them! Blacks drug addicts, robbery, killings. Blacks are taught to react to how others treat them! Also our president was asked after a speech about Travons killing and advised the media that he was not going to interfere with the case but that it was a tragerdy and that if he had a son he would look like Travon. Why are you mad? It is true President`s mother is white and his father is black. Whites are the first ones to say if you have a black in your blood that you are black.

Posted by: Terri at March 23, 2012 11:51 PM (Qug6W)

932 _______________________________________

Alright, here are some important considerations:

First of all, the angelic pictures they have been showing of Mr. Trayvon Martin look to be from when he was a junior high school boy of about fourteen. - Not of the much stronger man he had developed into by the age of seventeen.
This is likely a form of manipulation by the family (-understandable) and/or the media (-unforgivable).

Secondly, it is apparent from the compilation of more than five independent 911 calls released by the police (which, taken together, run for more than thirty-four minutes) that Mr. George Zimmerman and Mr. Martin had become engaged in a desperate, hand-to-hand power struggle that lasted at least the better part of a minute and conceivably longer. During this struggle one of the men was repeatedly and desperately crying out for someone to come to his aid.

We can safely conclude from this that Trayvon Martin was obviously not shot while holding a bag of Skittles and an ice-tea beverage.

Further, the strong (but as yet publicly unconfirmed) indication is that the desperate cries for help were being issued by George Zimmerman.

Posted by: _Dave_ at March 24, 2012 12:37 AM (2amQY)

933 ________________________________

Regarding the law:

Clause a in part 2 which begins "Such force is so great that the person reasonably..." will almost certainly completely protect George Zimmerman from prosecution. The several 911calls (even before we here Zimmerman's first hand claims) tell a compelling story of a frantic and prolonged physical struggle between two men with one of them desperately crying out for help. Assume for the moment that it was George Zimmerman crying out for help. In that case, it is reasonable to conclude that his options in the desperate hand-to-hand contest are on the verge of exhausting - otherwise he would not be begging for someone - anyone! - to come and help him.
In the audios it sounds like a struggle to the death. That's where clause a in part 2 of the law kicks in. It effectively says: 'If you kill your opponent at this no-more-options point, then your homicide will automatically be justified.' - According to the law it doesn't matter who started the fight, or even why.

On the other hand, if it was certain that it was not George Zimmerman but rather it was Trayvon Martin who was crying out for help, then a prosecutor would have a serious angle to pursue against George Zimmerman. It would be reasonable to argue before a jury that it was not George Zimmerman's options on the verge of exhausting (as the law requires) - but rather it was Trayvon Martin's options on the verge of exhausting as he struggled to keep George Zimmerman from shooting him. If the jury found the prosecution's argument that Zimmerman indeed had other reasonable means to escape the situation, they could convict him of some degree or other of manslaughter.

However, putting aside for the moment that there are strong indications that it is George who can be heard in the background of one of the 911 recordings screaming out for help: it is at least very unlikely that it can be concluded that those screams are coming only from Trayvon. And without such certainty, then it would be entirely plausible that it was George who was the one screaming out in dire straits. That's what's known as a crystal-clear reasonable doubt.

The prosecution could put Zimmerman through the tribulations of a trial, but they'd know they'd never get a homicide conviction.
Because as long as the jury believes that it could have been George who was desperately crying out for help in the middle of what all eye-witnesses testify as being a desperate, man-on-man struggle; it is extremely unlikely that the jury will then unanimously decide that George had a reasonable option by which he could safely escape the Â“imminent danger of death or great bodily harmÂ”.

Put simply:
Desperate cries for someone - anyone! - to come help you in a mortal struggle are a clear indication that you are all but out of personal resources.

Posted by: _Dave_ at March 24, 2012 12:51 AM (2amQY)

934 _______________________________________

And that's what makes clause a of part 2 of that law so bad.

It says that even if you are the very one who provoked the deadly physical violence of which you now find yourself on the losing end: you are protected under the law to resolve that conflict by killing the person you provoked - if there is no other way to keep from getting killed yourself.
THAT'S AWFUL.
Throw into the mix a conceal and carry permit and you have a recipe for disaster because that turns an already scary fistfight with a stranger into a deadly surprise.

Imagine it's night and you're walking home through your neighborhood with about a half mile to go. You notice a strange man following you, and you pick up your pace as adrenaline begins to course through your system. Frighteningly, he picks up his pace too, and now you know you're being pursued by this creep. Panic sets in and you run. He runs after you. You started with a decent lead on him, but you have no idea if you can outrun him. Rounding a bend and temporarily out of sight you decide to hide in the back of a neighbor's yard in some bushes. For a few moments you think maybe you've lost him. But then you see him coming slowly and quietly into the back yard... searching. You stay perfectly still until... he's almost where you're hiding. Another couple of steps and he is practically on top of your hiding spot. You know he's about to discover you, and in a state of pure instinct you attack. He has in fact provoked you into this attack - as he was clearly hunting you down.
You start getting the better of him. But he's fighting back. But your adrenaline is racing! And righteous indignation is rising in your blood: this motherfucker was stalking you!
He's gotten some good hits in on you, but now you're starting to kick the shit out of him.
Suddenly he pulls out a gun, and you immediately grab it forcing his aim to the ground. Now you're both locked in a death struggle. Only one of you gets to live through this. That's obvious. No rational, cool-headed conversation is going to suddenly calm this scenario down.
You attacked him because he hunted you down: he cornered you and thereby outright provoked you.
He instinctively pulled his gun out because you were kicking the shit out of him and he needed to make you stop. He may have thought you were going to beat him to death, or there may have been no thought at all - just the desperate need to stop the beating. You saw him pull the gun and begin to aim it at you, and there was only one thing to do: grab it from him.

I'm not saying that the above scenario is what happened to Trayvon Martin. I'm saying that it should not be able to legally happen to anybody.

It is good to have a "Stand Your Ground" law like the one Florida has. But not one that protects a well meaning gunman in a scenario like the one above.
It incentivizes courageous and armed but untrained and unauthorized men to confront and chase down suspicious looking strangers.

The answer is simple. Keep part 2 of the law, but strike out clause a. - So that if you are responsible for provoking a deadly situation that ends in the death of an unarmed innocent: the law will not protect you.
Maybe the jury will acquit you due to special circumstances. Maybe the victim was high on crack when he felt compelled to attack you, his pursuer.
Or maybe the victim had only hours before committed a rape or murder. Or maybe the jury just thinks you're too cute to convict. Sure, whatever. But there shouldn't be a law in place that guarantees your acquittal and thus makes prosecution a fool's errand.

Want to be part of the nighttime neighborhood watch? That's a good thing. Want to make sure that suspicious looking characters in your neighborhood get questioned by police by you constantly tracking their position on foot? Either disarm yourself before you pursue your suspect - and accept all the inherent dangers of possibly facing an armed thug. Or accept the fact that should your tactics of pursuit inadvertently freak-out and provoke an innocent person to defend herself against you (her weirdo stalker) wherein you are forced to shoot her in defense of your own life: that the law will not protect you, and you will very likely go to prison.

Note that as part of a neighborhood night watch, you could still use a carry and conceal permit to arm yourself with a gun in case you have to face an armed thug in your rounds. It's just that whenever you saw someone suspicious you would merely report him - and not pursue him. Often that means the suspect will go unquestioned by the police. Oh well. You've done your job in deterring crime that night.

If instead he comes toward you, you'd announce you have a gun and if necessary you'd brandish it. If he decided to run straight at you lunging for your gun, so that you were forced to shoot him: this is where the "Stand Your Ground" law would protect you (as it should) from prosecution. - Even if you ended up killing an innocent who was sleep walking. Because you would not have provoked the death struggle by giving pursuit to a stranger in uncertain circumstances.
Rather, you would have done your best to let the person know you had a gun that you were willing to use so that they had a clear option not to get shot.

In the situation where you're pursuing someone with your concealed weapon, your "suspect" may have no idea what your intentions are and no idea that you have a gun. And you're not trained to handle the situation anyway.

Posted by: _Dave_ at March 24, 2012 02:07 AM (2amQY)

935 I have said elsewhere and I say it here, Zimmerman should be charged at the very least with manslaughter for NOT obeying a lawful order to stand down, the 911 operator told him not to pursue and he chose to be a cop all on his own. It is idiots like him that make good laws seem dangerous with the Obama loving media.

Posted by: JadedByPolitics at March 24, 2012 02:45 AM (+Jg9I)

936 "The actual real-world facts is that blacks commit crimes at greatly higher rates than whites, and that blacks specifically victimize whites at far higher rates than whites victimize blacks." What are you, some kind of raciss? RACISS RACISS RACISS

Posted by: Rollory at March 24, 2012 05:52 AM (kFIsy)

937 _Dave_ nice strawman ... that 6'2" "kid" was not in his own neighborhood, he was in Zimmermans neighborhood ... while on a 5 day suspension from his high school that he was supposed to be such a "model" student at ...

Posted by: JeffC at March 24, 2012 06:43 AM (NEXKe)

938

@77: "The MFM shows pictures of the "kid" when he was about 10 y.o. Why is it they always portray the "victim" as an innocent choir boy? We now know
he was a 17 y.o gang banger who had been kicked out of school because he was violent. He also had a rap sheet for violent crimes and burglary. And yes that is relevant."

Yeah, that kid could be Barry's son. In fact, right about now, his mug shot is probably in the same place as Barry's Birth Certificate.

Posted by: 66chevelle at March 24, 2012 07:03 AM (QjSgY)

939 I'd like some reliable confirmation that "the kid" was kicked out of school for violent behaviour, and that he in fact does have a rap sheet for violent crimes and burglary.

I'd also like to see how baby-faced the 17 yo was, since essentially all I have seen are years-old "baby" pictures.

I have heard that the kid leaned into the car. I'd like to know whether that is true or false.

If some thuggish kid marched over aggressively and stuck his head in my car, If I were too surprised to have driven away, I'd probably shoot him, especially if he started throwing punches.

Posted by: Sarahw at March 24, 2012 09:23 AM (LYwCh)

940 People keep saying the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to continue following him. All I have seen so far is that the dispatcher said "You don't have to do that." which is NOT the same thing as don't follow him.

As for Zimmerman calling Martin a "Coon" under his breath. Yeah, CNN is making that claim when even their own sound expert said that its impossible to determine if the word was coon or goon. But, I am sure all you people trust everything CNN tells you. Its not like they have been caught faking things before.

Posted by: Deathknyte at March 24, 2012 10:12 AM (AA3pR)

941 Critical race theory says the system is inherently racist so whatever happens next should be excused.

Posted by: Pmzey at March 24, 2012 12:29 PM (pmzey)

942 Trayvon would look like meeeeee!

Posted by: Buttclapper at March 24, 2012 06:08 PM (Q63S1)

943 Sorry, but I always look to the New Black Panthers for moral clarity.

Posted by: Buttclapper at March 24, 2012 06:10 PM (Q63S1)

944 This post is awesome. Just so you know "Ace" there is a category on every arrest sheet asking race and one of the options is.... WHITE HISPANIC. Just ask any chicago copper and they'll confirm it for you. But, hey when I want to read what the right-wing bigots are saying about the murder of an innocent young man and all the nuance they can apparently find in a premeditated murder I'll keep coming back here!

Posted by: Grung_e_Gene at March 25, 2012 05:28 AM (9pv9v)

945

1. I appreciate the media dubbing Zimmerman "a white Hispanic." Like the Israelis, he's now an honorary member of the Oppressive White Majority.

----

The media does not have to dub anyone named Zimmerman white. If anything he has been dubbed a "white Hispanic". I swear Ace has become the biggest white man's burden/ I'm white victim of the media narrative motherfucker ever...

Sand,vagina, water, vinegar, cleanse...

Posted by: theworldisnotenough at March 25, 2012 03:30 PM (kgX2S)

Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.

699kb generated in CPU 0.2434, elapsed 0.5273 seconds.
64 queries taking 0.3168 seconds, 1073 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.