1 God bless her.  She has a tough row to hoe, as does her family.

2 I bet he bought her home and showed her off to the rest of the family, right? And as she was still sick, right? Sick and creepy!

3 Amen Huerfano. I am so grateful she is better. Prayers still for the Santorum family.

4 Lotta praying going on at the AoS last night for Bella.

I'm going to send some more their way.

Go Bella!

5 Thank you God.  It is nice to hear good news for a change.

6 2-you really need to go away. That garbage is not appropriate for this little girl and this family.

7 Praise the Lord. Hope little Isabella stays healthy and lives a long, healthy life.

8 Good to hear!  Bless her heart.

9 Good news.

10 Way to go, Bella! 

Really, what a tough thing for the Santorums to go through while he's campaigning.  They must be a really solid family.  God bless them. 

11 9-Joncelli, hon, why are you stressed? Can we help?

12

moki, I thing "Alan" was criticizing those who are trying to paint Santorum "weird" because he is a faithful, orthodox, Catholic Christian.

I can go to confession afterwards, but let me just say fuck those bastards.  I'm so sick of hearing how being a believing, non-cafeteria Catholic amounts to snake handling.

RE: Santorum derangement: You feel guilty, bros?

13 She's such a sweet girl. What a little miracle baby.

14 In a primary of doom it's nice to hear uplifting news.

15 Good

16 moki, I thing "Alan" was criticizing those who are trying to paint Santorum "weird" because he is a faithful, orthodox, Catholic Christian.

I can go to confession afterwards, but let me just say fuck those bastards. I'm so sick of hearing how being a believing, non-cafeteria Catholic amounts to snake handling.

RE: Santorum derangement: You feel guilty, bros?

Exactly what I was trying to do.

17

The inhumanity of liberalism is on full display in the article's comments.

18 I bet he bought her home and showed her off to the rest of the family, right? And as she was still sick, right? Sick and creepy!
------------------

I saw that piece live when it aired..... I was never so effin furious at my TV as when Holmes opened his pie-hole on this.... grinning as he spittled out his point.

19 Good news. Praying for her  continued recovery.

20

Glad she's recovering.

21 In this whole blasted election mess, I'm glad we can have this bit of happy news.  May little Isabella get well soon from this scary bout of pneumonia.  She's a tough little girl, no question!  God bless her and her family.

22 Crud, the new comments thingy ate my apology Imp and I was Alan Colmes. Sorry, I reacted to the statement, not the inference behind it. And yes, I am sick of those who make evil out to be good, and good evil. Leave the innocent alone. And people wonder why the good don't want to go into politics? Who on earth would want to put their family through this trial by fire?

23

Obama has a far more efficient idea for this kind of "burden."

Progs are just  plain evil.

24

The inhumanity of liberalism is on full display in the article's comments.

 

 

Hey, c'mere, I wanna show you something.  This, this is my shocked face:  WHAA???

25 You know... it might be interesting to have an actual Bible-believing devout Christian in the WH.

Of course, that doesn't actually necessarily mean CONSERVATIVE! (See Also: Bush, GW), but it would be nice.

But, I think I'll stick with the Apocalypse Party, the National AP chaired by Global-killer the Meteor, APCC chaired by Cthulhu, and APSC chaired by Xipe Totec.

26 Very good news.Unfortunately with her diagnosis this is a frequent trip for her and her family. The photos of her on a video are beautiful, and the love is evident in that family.

27 The inhumanity of liberalism is on full display in the article's comments.

 

Posted by: weew at January 30, 2012 01:42 PM (ElfHn)

 

--------------

 

There is more humanity in a package of Soylent Green than in the entire leftist hegemony.

28 11 9-Joncelli, hon, why are you stressed? Can we help?

Posted by: moki at January 30, 2012 01:38 PM (dZmFh)

Moki: I'm always stressed by nature, plus I lost my mom in June to suicide, my wife lost her job, my stepson lost his dad to pancreatic cancer in November, and we may have to sell the house in order to make ends meet. Otherwise I'm little mister sunshine.

29 Not my Bella, not my problem.

30

From the article, a quote from Rick Santorum:

"She’s our little angel,” he told a hotel ballroom crowd in Johnston, Iowa. “That’s Isabella Maria. Isabella Maria, we don’t take her out in crowds. She’s — has a disability. She has a disability that has, according to the records, the statistics, has a 1% chance of survival after one year. She is 3½ years old.”

 

SO HE ADMITS SHE IS AN EVIL ONE-PERCENTER!!!??!?!?!!?!

/sarc

31 And boy I should have just said something funny instead.

32

What infuriates me moki, are the "conservatives" like ace or some of the cobs that buy into the notion that Santorum is some kind of fundie kook for believing orthodox dogma.

Fine, Santorum probably can't be elected, and it's making me begin to wonder if there is enough of a conservative remnant in this country for conservative government to ever be possible.   Fine.  I'm officially a minority.

But still, he's not exactly strange or way out of the mainstream in saying that it's morally wrong to ass ram each other.

33 28-I am so, so sorry. I can't begin to imagine going through all of that in so short a period. Seriously, is there something we can do, beyond praying and being glad to see you in the comments?

34 Fine, Santorum probably can't be elected, and it's making me begin to wonder if there is enough of a conservative remnant in this country for conservative government to ever be possible

Small quibble: Bible believing Christian != Conservative, necessarily. 

Other than that, I largely agree with you.  The thing in which I take solace is that the 1st Century Christians had it even worse, and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything.

35 Good.

36 Praying helps Moki. And it's nice to drink at a bar where everybody knows your name.

37

Other than that, I largely agree with you. The thing in which I take solace is that the 1st Century Christians had it even worse, and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything.

 

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Team Meteor. Now with Cheesecake at January 30, 2012 01:52 PM (8y9MW)

 

Bingo.  To understand even an ounce of the misery the early Christians went through, all we have to do is look to the Copts in Egypt.

38 All of our prayers are with you, joncelli. 

39 I wonder if Keith Olbermann managed to say something shitty about Ms. Santorum whilst she was in hospital.

40 I don't know if it's good news or bad news. It really depends on the quality of her life going forward.

Hopefully it's good news.

41

From the comments of the article, exactly what I was looking for.

"Rick's daughter wasn't saved by a miracle, she was saved by the best medical care money can buy; the very same medical care Rick can't wait to repeal for 140 million Americans."

 

I expect this from someone on MSNBC within the next 24 hours.  The idiocy knows no bounds.

42 Posted by: imp at January 30, 2012 01:50 PM (UaxA0)

If what I read is true, The Santorums grieved in an odd way.

That being said; it's none of my business, and I certainly don't think less or more of him. It's a private thing, and since it didn't hurt anyone it's off limits.

I don't like Santorum's politics, and his SoCon bat he uses to beat us with.

He also loves his daughter very much, and that shows his humanity. Maybe Newt could get some advice from him.

43

Yeah Allen, we're not "persecuted" (nor fed to the lions).  OK. 

But one quibble: a devout Christian is conservative in the broad sense.  Not the small government sense (which is why I'm not much of a Santorum fan, even though we are probably ideological twins).  We need less government, not "better" government.  But in the true sense of conserving the essence of Western culture.  Iit is functionally gone, really.  The inner cities and the suburbs are producing what amount to illiterate barbarians, amoral, feckless, driven by selfish passions and unrestrained by anything approaching a common morality.

We're doomed alright, and not just actuarially.

44 I don't know if it's good news or bad news. It really depends on the quality of her life going forward.

Life is always good news.

45 Anyone who raises a handicapped child is a good person, and becomes a much better person for it. Good news like this more then balances out all of Monty's DOOM.

46 "If what I read is true, The Santorums grieved in an odd way."

Why would there be one, culturally approved path for grieving?

Different religions or lack thereof, different beliefs, different family traditions, different personalities. I say let them grieve how they want.

Are dead bodies so taboo in the modern era that grieving in the presence of one isn't aloud, until the undertaker has spruced it up and flowers have been order?

They're child died. They grieved in the presence of that child. It doesn't seem unusual or weird to me.

47 Good to hear. The power of prayer!

48 *allowed

49 Yeah, when the that study was published about religious and conservative people having lower IQs, it was referring to people like Santorum and not us.

50 a devout Christian is conservative in the broad sense.

Not always.  There are lots of devout Christians who really do seize on that "and they had everything in common" stuff, and "if you have two cloaks, give one to your neighbor" and all of that.  It's really in there, and they really believe it.

Worse, many of them believe that it is the place of government to set the "moral standards" of Society- by which they mean legislating Christian virtues.  I know many of these people, and I love arguing Bible with them, and praying with them, and all those kinds of things, but we couldn't be further apart politically.

Now, many of them don't like Obama because they don't trust him, and they didn't like Clinton because of the sex stuff, but neither are they really big on this "do as thou wilt" stuff that they associate with Republicans.

51 "Anyone who raises a handicapped child is a good person..."

I'm not sure how this statement can be factually supported. It seems a heavily element of random chance is involved.

In fact, the non-random element could be choosing to have children later in life, by which time the parents' DNA has been degraded, and odds of disabilities go up. Not that that makes them bad people or anything, but aside from that, having handicapped children is pure happenstance.

52 "If what I read is true, The Santorums grieved in an odd way."

The Sky burial in Tibet as an example, where they chop up the corpse and feed it to vultures. But, that is an accepted practice there. They would think it weird that we shoot our corpses full of chemicals to try and preserve them...

53

I don't know if it's good news or bad news. It really depends on the quality of her life going forward.

 

Ransom, there are many people out there who think that they can presume to know the "quality" of a person's life from the outside looking in.

 

As the parent of a special-needs child, I can tell you that until you are the one "living" in that sphere, nobody has the slightest CLUE what they are talking about.

 

"Quality" is defined differently for every person - some of us are blessed enough to have someone in our family whose existence allows us time to slow down and appreciate the truly important things in life.

 

Now, THAT'S "Quality".....

54

If what I read is true, The Santorums grieved in an odd way.

 

They grieved the same way that my cousin and her family did when she lost a baby at nearly 8 months gestation for no reason that was ever determined.  I have, um, Opinions about what should be done to Alan Colmes and his ilk for their comments about this. 

 

 

55 "They would think it weird that we shoot our corpses full of chemicals to try and preserve them..."

And frankly our way is weird by comparison: it's much less natural. I think the philosopher Diogenes of Sinope had it right, personally.

56

"If what I read is true, The Santorums grieved in an odd way."

No, they didn't.

Have you had a child that died?  After being carried for months, all of a sudden mommy's belly is empty and there's no other  baby.  The other kids were 6, 4 and 1 1/2.   The other kids needed to understand and have some sense of closure too.  That little corpse was a beloved child.  What, now that he's dead, heave it into the furnace?

What's freakish is the absolute phobia in modern society against life, especially nascent or very young life.  And particularly  if that young life has been snuffed out.  Civilization was essentially founded on funeral services.  In Rome, the first guilds were funerary societies so that your corpse wouldn't be eaten by dogs in teh street.  It is the one service we can do for others that is wholly altruistic. 

I'm sorry if the idea of children or the dead makes you feel "icky."  Having babies has been a normal part of being human for 150,000 years, and burying the dead with rites has been around for at least 90,000 of those.  Until now, apparently.

57 51 a devout Christian is conservative in the broad sense.

Worse, many of them believe that it is the place of government to set the "moral standards" of Society- by which they mean legislating Christian virtues. I know many of these people, and I love arguing Bible with them, and praying with them, and all those kinds of things, but we couldn't be further apart politically.

Now, many of them don't like Obama because they don't trust him, and they didn't like Clinton because of the sex stuff, but neither are they really big on this "do as thou wilt" stuff that they associate with Republicans.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Team Meteor. Now with Cheesecake at January 30, 2012 02:01 PM (8y9MW)

You can legislate values but you can't change the way a person thinks...

58

== Random at January 30, 2012 01:55 PM (YiE0S)==

Really? Really? Her quality of life determines whether her recovery from an illness is good news? It's sentiments like those that led to the abortion age, euthanasia, and the like. You're a very small step away from praising eugenics.

The idea that any pain is bad, that all suffering to be pointless, that fulfillment of the self is the one high goal in life is directly responsible for both the entitlement society we've let this country become and the moral cesspool we've allowed to dominate in society.

You do not get to judge what quality of life is acceptable enough to deem her recovery "good news" or "bad news". To paraphrase Allen West, "Take your message of quality of life somewhere else. You can take it to Europe, you can take it to the bottom of the sea, you can take it to the North Pole, but get the hell out of the United States of America.”

59 >>>I have, um, Opinions about what should be done to Alan Colmes and his ilk for their comments about this.

Oh, I got angry enough to see red. Those F*wads renounced their membership in the human race as far as I'm concerned.

60

In fact, the non-random element could be choosing to have children later in life, by which time the parents' DNA has been degraded, and odds of disabilities go up.

 

Yes, the ODDS do go up; however, in the case of Down syndrome, 85% of all children with DS are born to mothers who are UNDER the age of 35.

 

Incidentally, the abortion rate for pre-natally diagnosed DS is over 90%.  For Trisomy 18, it's 92%. 

 

And our experience has been that the families of special-needs children aren't "saintly" before that child came into their life - they "become" that way.  (But if you were to ask them, they would tell you that they aren't any different from any other family out there - we always thought that God had sent our daughter to the "wrong" family, because we weren't one of  "those"  families.....)

61 "What's freakish is the absolute phobia in modern society against life, especially nascent or very young life. And particularly if that young life has been snuffed out."

I disagree in one respect, imp.

I don't believe our society has a bias against life overall. I think it has an enormous fear of death, and society is basically organized in one way or another to hide death and cover it up.

"Civilization was essentially founded on funeral services. In Rome, the first guilds were funerary societies so that your corpse wouldn't be eaten by dogs in teh street. It is the one service we can do for others that is wholly altruistic."

Not just by hiding bodies and things, but even our niceties like calling each other "Mr." and wearing clothes. These hide the obvious fact that we are animals and thus entirely mortal like they are.

One of my favorite topics is suicide, which I'm considering.

I have the normal sadness at the thought of, and instinctive fears of, death, and , but no added cultural squeamishness around it. I've removed that portion from my psychological makeup.

Most people are offended by suicide, even atheists who don't have a religious reason to believe their life is provided to them by God. It's all part of our taboo around death, as if it could be avoided somehow.

62

We're just talking about two different things, Alan. 

When you say "conservative" you mean conservative to teh classical liberal founding of this nation as a limited government.   Nothing wrong with that.

My meaning is a bit broader.   I mean conservative in the older way, against the conceits of the "Enlightenment" that introduced the Pandora's box of the perfectability of man.

Our Founders were wise enough not to fall into the French Revolution's idea of perfect man living in a perfect Republic.  Lots of heads rolled from that idea.  And over the centuries, it just got worse.  It's all this false notion of inevitable "progress" in the state of man's development. 

I'm not exactly a neo-feudalist, but the warlordism coming from the breakdown of civilization (in the event that meteor hits, or a mass plague) is going to put that system back into the mix for certain. 

Society can regress as well as progress, and the size of government is not going to be the saving grace of any hoped-for continuation of Western Civ.

63 I'm not sure how this statement can be factually supported. It seems a heavily element of random chance is involved.

Not at all.  The original comment said "raise" as in "bring up" as in "in your own household."

Consider the number of people, once told their child even might be disabled, who then get an abortion.  Then consider the number of people, after the child is born, who find out the child is disabled and give them up for adoption or (sadly, too frequently) simply abandon them.

There is no "random chance" in disabled children being reared by those who love them- the ones who didn't would either have murdered them before they were born or given them away (in fact, some of the ones who do love them give them away, rather than caring for the poorly).

64 "Really? Really? Her quality of life determines whether her recovery from an illness is good news"

Yeah.

Exactly.

I think it's evil to wish someone a prolonged, unpleasant life. If she can have a good life, I'm all for it. If she's being kept alive to make other people (such as yourself) feel better, I think that's wrong.

I wish everyone here a good life, but I don't wish you a long life if you don't enjoy your lives.

Rationally, why would I?

65

>>>I have, um, Opinions about what should be done to Alan Colmes and his ilk for their comments about this.

 

Alan Colmes is Exhibit A in my case for "People Who Became Hateful Liberals Because They're Too Ugly To Make Friends."

66 .You're a very small stepaway frompraisingeugenics. No. Search the site. This moby is already there.

67 "The original comment said "raise" as in "bring up" as in "in your own household.""

I considered that and that makes sense.

I don't support the blanket nature of your statement, because some bad people have indeed raised handicapped kids. But sure, someone choosing to do so out of love for children would be a good person.

68 "You're a very small stepaway frompraisingeugenics. "

I think eugenics can be humane.

If it raises people's genetic quality such that they enjoy their life more, then that's good.

69 One of my favorite topics is suicide, which I'm considering. Random Random, please, please reconsider this. Do you have family or loved ones? Do you have friends? Suicide is one of the worst things you can do to them. It rips hearts and minds apart, and devastates so much more than the one who takes their life. You have an active mind, and are well thought out. Please, please remember you have something to offer this world, and that if you leave it too soon, you leave it undone. No, this is not because I "fear" death. I don't. But I do know what it is like to experience another's suicide, and the pain, hurt, and emptiness it leaves. Please don't do it.

70

Dear God, Random - are you truly thinking about committing suicide, or are you just looking at it from a clinical/research point of view?

 

PLEASE - get in touch with someone if you need to talk; you can click on my name and contact me directly.  Life is precious, even if it doesn't seem like it right this minute.  There is ALWAYS hope, and you are ALWAYS loved.

 

Seriously, sweetie - look me up.  I'll be more than happy to respond back with my contact information, and I will be more than happy to have you reverse charges if you want to call and chat.

71 Besides, in a sense life is naturally eugenic.

We choose mates on the basis of finding the best person, usually with the best genes (as measured by health, success, looks, etc.). That's natural.

I don't support forced sterilizations or anything like that, but to take one example, when a sperm donor is chosen, genetic fitness is definitely looked at. And it should be.

Many of our policies are dysgenic, and i oppose them. For example, we sometimes make it easy for single moms to have lots of kids on welfare. So the less successful people are encouraged to have more children on the taxpayer's dime. No, I don't think that makes sense.

But if we can reduce the amount of children born with bad genes so that children can have happier lives?

Yep. Totally for it.

72 "Dear God, Random - are you truly thinking about committing suicide, or are you just looking at it from a clinical/research point of view?"

Definitely considering it.

Also from a clinical/research/philosophical point of view. It's an interesting topic.

73

If it raises people's genetic quality such that they enjoy their life more, then that's good.

 

If you could meet my daughter, you'd know what true "enjoyment" is.  She was blessed with an additional chromosome.

 

Our lives have never been the same, and God's not getting her back without a big fight.

 

"Eye of the Beholder" - I WISH that I could enjoy life as much as she does.....

74 Why do you all have such life-biases anyway?

Life can be good, but it isn't always good.

I guess I know the answer to this.

Shelly Kagan has a 26 part lecture series on Death on YouTube. Kagan is a well-known philosopher from Yale.

Lecture 20 is on "valuable container theory" vs. "neutral container theory".

I.e., does life have inherent value (as religion teaches) or does its value derive from the quality of one's life, as measured by good and bad experiences or realization of values, etc. (as is logically consistent with materialism).

I hold the latter view.

As he goes on to explain in lectures 24-26, then it makes sense that in some cases death is preferrable to life. He certainly hopes these cases are rare, as do I.

But in some cases, the answer is yes. From this philosophical perspective based on this metaphysical conclusion.

Anyway, it's off topic.

On topic, I hope the little girl does well in life. I'm not, honestly, optimistic about that, but that is my wish.

75

76 Teresa, Having grown up in Fort Worth, I already like you. AFter your comments today, it would be an honor to be your friend. Linking arms with you to pray for your baby, and for Random, and Joncelli, and all those who need it.

77

Random,

I have no real problem with death, one of the interesting Buddhist practices I learned about was every morning imagining the worms eating your body after you die.  Not really distressing, on top of the near death folk's reports.  Ultimately, I don't remember before I was born, what can death be like.   I hope that God will forgive my badness enough to allow me to be in the afterlife in His peace.

But suicide isn't wrong because you die, it's wrong because you're rejecting a gift: life.  I can't presume to know what pain you're under, but I would pray that it is lifted for you.  If it's physical pain, perhaps medication can help, if emotional, perhaps talking to others and time to heal. 

You've come across sometimes here as a jerk, but if you are in that much  of a bad place, then it's understandable.  There are lots of reasons for you to stick it out, but you have to want to find those reasons for yourself.  Hell, maybe it's something as simple as a sunset, or as complex as helping other people (which I find is never truly simple).

Take care of yourself.

78 "If you could meet my daughter, you'd know what true "enjoyment" is. She was blessed with an additional chromosome."

Well, if she's enjoying her life, and I believe you, then that's good.

I will say though, that as a broad matter, less genetic illnesses are better than more. That's a rational statement,and I don't think I should have to defend it.

I don't believe in forced sterilization, etc., but I do believe people, by and large, naturally look for genetic fitness in mates. It's instinctive.

Life is about survival, reproduction, and improving the species' fitness (or more accurately, individual genes' survival chances). That isn't to say art,music, philosophy, politics, love, friendship, travel, and so on aren't great things. They all are.

But so is health and genes do make a massive difference to people's happiness and success in the aggregate.

79 "But suicide isn't wrong because you die, it's wrong because you're rejecting a gift: life."

Sometimes it's a curse.

80

But if we can reduce the amount of children born with bad genes so that children can have happier lives?

 

Apples and oranges - the children who are born with "bad" genes have absolutely no influence on the happiness of children who don't.  If you don't understand how the two are mutually exclusive, perhaps you should reflect on the statement you made just a little bit more.

 

"Happiness" isn't a fixed quantity, and one person's happiness should not depend on another person's happiness or lack thereof.  There are children around the world who are living in abject poverty, but they are HAPPY.

 

You want to make yourself happy?  Every day, write down 5 things that you are grateful for that happened that day.  It doesn't have to be anything big - it can be something as tiny as "I saw a pretty flower when I was outside".

 

At the end of a month, I guarantee that you will be looking at the world with completely different eyes.  Because there is so much GOOD in the world - we've just forgotten how to see it......

81 "You've come across sometimes here as a jerk, but if you are in that much of a bad place, then it's understandable."

Ha, no it's because I believe different things than you do.

82 "the children who are born with "bad" genes have absolutely noinfluence onthe happiness of children who don't"

Yeah, I get that, but take sex.

Sex is on one level mechanical, but underlying that, is a search for genetic material. It's a search for high-quality genetic material.

Doesn't always work. And sometimes the individual does not have the genes or circumstance themselves to attract the best genetic material. But that is what sex is about.

So it is naturally eugenic.

In general, I support non-coercive eugenic policies as opposed to many of our current dysgenic policies.

83

That's a rational statement,and I don't think I should have to defend it.

No, it's not a "rational" statement.  It is loaded with preconceived notions of the "worth" of life. 

Human life, and life in general, is not purely "rational."  Nor is "worth" determined by genetic fitness.

Trying to conform life to such notions is how we got 100 million dead in the 20th century.  If you're just trying to be Hitchens, then there's nothing anyone can do.  But don't drag "rationality" in here.  That "rational" course always ends in mass grave.

84

Random - seriously; call me, OK?  I'm here to tell you that life is NOT a curse.  You are loved.  And you are a unique gift to the people around you - even your Fake Internet Friends.

 

Click on my name, and contact me, please.

 

Moki - thanks for the kind words, m'dear!  I ALREADY consider you my friend (that goes for you, too, Random!)...

 

The "baby" is already 10 years old - as far as she's concerned, all of the people around her are simply her "staff".  She is livin' the life, let me tell ya!

85 "You want to make yourself happy? Every day, write down 5 things that you are grateful for that happened that day."

Thanks for the suggestion. That isn't my goal.

If happiness came as a result of getting what I want and value, I'd be for it. But by itself, not having what I want and value, then it gets in the way. Unhappiness suits me better for it is motivating.

86 But suicide isn't wrong because you die, it's wrong because you're rejecting a gift: life.

More to the theological point, it constitutes a denial that the Creator can, in fact, relieve and resolve whatever issue or issues are leading you to take a deliberate early exit.  Despair as a mortal sin, and all.

That said, please reconsider.  We need all the good hands and heads we can get.  Bad as it looks, there's still hope...even if it may take a while to realize.

87 Frak that sock!

88 "You are loved."

Ha ha.

Not in any real sense.

Look, I don't wish to offend you by telling you what I think of the Christian concept of love, that of loving everybody. I will simply say that love to me is wanting to be with someone for your own selfish sake. Certainly not to help the other person.

That may be noble, but it is not what I would consider love.

No offense intended. Thanks for your kind offer.

89 85-deal, dear. Friends it is. You too, Random. And all the rest of you 'rons and 'rettes. Whew, my lungs are done. There is a nasty pneumonia going around that starts out like a cold and gets deep in your lungs very quickly. If you start feeling cruddy, get thee to a doctor post haste. You don't mess around with this stuff. Talk to y'all later!

90 "More to the theological point, it constitutes a denial that the Creator can, in fact, relieve and resolve whatever issue or issues are leading you to take a deliberate early exit. Despair as a mortal sin, and all."

Sure as I mentioned, there are two basic ways of looking at that. Your way, though, is not my way. In my way there is only this one life, and therefore, I have no obligations to anyone or anything in another (nonexistent) realm. I also cannot look to it for help, since no help (save perhaps useful self-delusion) will be forthcoming.

Look, considering doesn't mean will. Frankly, it is my physical cowardice in this respect which will probably doom me to go on. (David Hume's wonderful insightful essay on this subject touched on this aspect too.)

91 Yeah, moki, lungs are important. Best to treat them well and get treatment as soon as possible. Pneumonia is no fun, I'm sure, aside from being dangerous.

92

But so is health and genes do make a massive difference to people's happiness and success in the aggregate.

 

Most genetic anomalies (such as Down syndrome and Trisomy 1 CANNOT be passed on to the next generation - they are "self-defeating".  Nature takes care of that, because reproduction won't take place.  (DS is a unique situation, because we now have kids living long enough to reach reproductive maturity, but for most other cases, it's a non-issue).

 

Most trisomies are not genetic in nature - that is, they don't carry from one generation to the next.

 

And as our family has learned, "success" has many different faces.  Yes, our youngest daughter's "success" is measured very differently from her sisters' and the rest of society's, but she is SUCCESSFUL, nonetheless.

 

And seeing her and getting to know her makes people smile, and brightens their day.

 

If that's not "success", I don't know what is......

93 "That "rational" course always ends in mass grave."

Everything ends in a grave. And religion itself is noteworthy for having caused many UNTIL rationalism took away its teeth in Europe following the enlightenment.

So it's hardly rationalism = death, superstition = life.

It's more like both you live for a while, then you die.

Unavoidable.

94 If that's not "success", I don't know what is......

Good. I'm glad. I'm sure in many ways she's better at living than I am.

95

OK, Random, you see how irrational your rationality is?

Aristotle was not Christian in any sense.  But he realized that it is not material success or things that make one "happy."  It is satisfaction with the insights one has gained in life, and cultivating that internal development.

Your "rationality" would result in no continuing society whatsoever.  Everyone suffers dissatisfaction, often existential dissatisfaction, but they soldier on.  You most likely do not have children, or you would realize that love is at many times anything BUT selfish. 

Sacrifice is ennobling, and sacrifice born of love is the essence of an honorable life.  None of that is explicitly Christian, it is the core of Western civilization--the font of your so-called "rationality."

Romantic love is only one facet of a complex stone. 

96

Sometimes it's a curse.

Welcome to the fallen world.  It's that way for everybody.

97

No offense taken, Random - and my offer ALWAYS stands; if you ever want to talk, I'm here.

 

(And you'll always be loved....)

98 Actually, under scientific rationalism, we've created the conditions for 7 billion people to simultaneously live, with the most assured food supply and longest lifespans in history.

So certainly you're entitled to your beliefs, but I'll look upon the idea that rationalism leads to death with skepticism.

Yeah, the somewhat Darwinism-inspired, somewhat-Catholicism inspired, even more Germanic Paganism-inspired (2 religious views, as I count them) Nazis did awful things.

But so did religious kings and queens.

And we're violent apes. It's what we do.

Overall, violence is in serious decline and has been for millennia. Technology has helped massively in this regard, despite sometimes being used for death.

The death rate through violence was much (MUCH) higher when we used to hack each other with swords.

Often in the name of a god.

I'm not even saying religion causes violence, but it certainly doesn't present it.

Well, maybe Jainism.

99

The grave is not the mass grave.  Yes everyone dies, that does not tell us how to live.

Still, your presumed cold rationality results in a life that is neither productive nor fulfilling.  Presumably you are able-bodied, yet your "quality" of life should "rationally" doom you to oblivion. 

If that somehow makes sense as a philosophy, especially rational sense, your reasoning looks mighty strange from the outside.  Unless your thinking could apply at large to all, it is not a rational general belief system.  That's Rorty, as I understood.  Your beliefs, if applied generally, could not sustain a society, and are thus fundamentally irrational for the human condition. 

100 Even here, below, I'm contradicting myself, I know.

Rationalism led to a much better lifestyle, etc., for most people. But it probably will lead to biological death for us (soon) as we develop advanced artificial intelligences sufficient to replace us as the dominant force on this planet, and then they exponentially increase their intelligence in a way we can't.

Although religion also had a role to play in the development of technology, which improved our lives and will ultimately extinct us.

But anyhoo.

101

Good. I'm glad. I'm sure in many ways she's better at living than I am.

 

Well, she certainly opened MY eyes - I WISH that I could live as well as she does. 

 

All that "living in the moment" and "don't judge others" and "love everyone for who they are" stuff that we're always told we're supposed to do?  That's what she lives every minute of every day - we should all be so "lucky".....

 

If you are ever in this neck of the woods, let me know - I'd love for you to meet her and get one of her special hugs.  As our oldest daughter says, "Rebecca hugs make everything better!"

102 "Still, your presumed cold rationality results in a life that is neither productive nor fulfilling. Presumably you are able-bodied, yet your "quality" of life should "rationally" doom you to oblivion."

Yes. Quite. And surprisingly astute.

Rationality logically leads to biological life in that way too, if objectivity is taken to its extreme.

Objectively, there is no reason to prefer life over death. Emotions themselves are just particular cascades of biochemicals and neurological firing patterns that have evolved to help us survive and even more importantly reproduce. They have no ultimate meaning.

103

"You want to make yourself happy? Every day, write down 5 things that you are grateful for that happened that day. It doesn't have to be anything big - it can be something as tiny as "I saw a pretty flower when I was outside".

At the end of a month, I guarantee that you will be looking at the world with completely different eyes. Because there is so much GOOD in the world - we've just forgotten how to see it......"

 

If you're ever coming up short on any given day, hit up the H2.

Oh, wait.  Teresa said GOOD things.

104 *Rationality logically leads to the ^oblivion of biological life in that way too ....

105

Often in the name of a god.

 

That's the "convenient excuse" that is used - almost all wars are STARTED over hunger (which is probably why we haven't seen many of them in the 20th/21st century - at least on this continent) and/or greed (coveting).

106

Random, then you are simply playing the fool to advocate an irrational rationality.

Pardon me for moving on.  As Dante said :

"Less shame would wash away a greater fault
than was your fault," my master said to me;
"therefore release yourself from all remorse
and see that I am always at your side,
should it so happen-once again-that fortune
brings you where men would quarrel in this fashion:
to want to hear such bickering is base."

107

If you're ever coming up short on any given day, hit up the H2.
Oh, wait. Teresa said GOOD things.

 

Boobs are good things (that's what my husband keeps telling me, anyway.....)  ;P

108 "That's the "convenient excuse" that is used - almost all wars are STARTED over hunger (which is probably why we haven't seen many of them in the 20th/21st century - at least on this continent) and/or greed (coveting)."

What nonsense.

Actually try reading the Bible. Numbers 31 is always my recommended way to start.

Anyway, hunger is a part, of course, but more importantly, we are naturally driven to (again, eugenically -- it's part of life) spread our genes, and wipe out competing genes.

This is something higher primates do. Chimps fight wars, sometimes completely genocidal ones, more often, killing enemy males and taking their females by force.

Not very nice at parties and chimp interpersonal violence forced Jane Goodall to use a bodyguard toward the end of her career, but an absolutely wonderful strategy to:

- pass on your group's genes
- eliminate competing genes
- expand your population by taking virgin, non-pregnant females by force
- killing the rest, of course

This sort of behavior is well known in our nearest relative, and it is exactly the hominid behavior described in Numbers 31. Sure they put a religious imprint on it, being commanded by God, etc., but it's just natural evolved human behavior.

109 "Random, then you are simply playing the fool to advocate an irrational rationality."

Not quite.

Precisely, objectivity leads to a loss of interest in life-affirming goals, since there is no point to life. Subjectively we can enjoy it (or not, as is often the case), but in either case, there is no meaning to be found in it.

We evolved the capacity to delude ourselves with religions and so on, probably as a protective mechanism to keep us striving and focused on living and reproduction, but they are objectively untrue and life has psychological value, sure, relative to individuals, but it has no ultimate, objective value.

110

Teresa, yeah, but they seem confined to only Fridays.  In fact, if you're coming up short on your list, and it happens to be a Wednesday, AVOID H2.  It will make you crumple up your list and throw it away.

111 ...and cue the "Christianity is flawed because there's a lot of naughty stuff in the Old Testament..."

112 And the New.

113 You want to make yourself happy?

Happiness is a result of right action.

Cymbalta can help.

Suicide is saying a giant Fuck You to God & Everybody.  Guess what?  They keep going anyway.  Then they're standing around your grave crying and angry at the same time while grandkids you never met play in the trees.  Put on your big girl panties.

114 That's fine.

115 That one should have been aborted.

Or feed her peanut butter mixed with warfarin.

116 "What ye have done to the least of these, ye have done so unto me."

117 "That one should have been aborted.

"Or feed her peanut butter mixed with warfarin."

Yep.