Ace of Spades HQ

May 26, 2012

Sat. Nite Chess Thread 05-26-2012 [OregonMuse]
— Open Blogger

Good evening fellow chess nerds, and what better way to spend the Memorial Day weekend than to abandon your friends and families, forgo all the barbecues, beer-drinking, celebrations, having a real life, etc., and hanging out here in the Saturday Nite AoSHQ Chess Thread.

So now that nobody is here, let's get down to business:

Chess Boxing - WTF?

I can't imagine two pursuits that are as completely different from each other as these two - even though their respective fans often discuss them in terms of the other, i.e chess games are "slugfests" and certain boxing matches are described in terms of problem-solving.

So here's a video that is a prettty good introduction to this sport. Personally, I can't imagine having to play chess after taking a few blows to the head, but there you are.
Here's an endgame problem that's been driving me nuts:

CN 7643 chess puzzle.jpg

White to move

I'm not going to post the answer, because I don't know it. I don't even know if this is a win or draw, or what, just 'White to move'. I stole this puzzle from Edward Winter's excellent Chess History site, which is absolutely crammed with fascinating historical chess tidbits, trivia and arcana, including tons of original source documents. It's amazing what Winter manages to come up with month after month.

I've always liked these endgame studies because the positions look like they could occur in an actual game. This is in contrast to some of the 'Mate in...[2,3]' problems where the pieces appear to be distributed on the board randomly.

Game of the Week

This week's famous chess game is Adams v. Torre, 1920. Black gets into back rank trouble and is on the ropes. White dances around like a boxer trying to force the Black Queen out of position so he can land telling blows on Black's soft underbelly. I couldn't find a good video of the complete game on Youtube, but I did find a good discussion of the crucial part of the game -- right before Black throws in the towel.

You can play through it yourself here. The Chessgames annotation for this game notes that it is 'probably analysis'. Which means, what, that it never really happened?

Chess Books That Should Be Updated to Algebraic(3^rd in a series):

Ludek Pachman's Modern Chess Strategy is yet another item in the Dover catalog that would really benefit from being updated to algebraic. In my younger days, I spent many hours studying and playing through the clear, concise examples in this book.

Thanks to those of you who have sent me tips for this thread. They may be sent to me at

OregonMuse
and then the at sign
followed by yahoo
and then dot
com

Posted by: Open Blogger at 04:45 PM | Comments (77)
Post contains 465 words, total size 3 kb.

1 Yay! Chess thread. I was learning openings and had trouble finding a comfortable line against the Sicilian. I had been playing closed (1. e4 c5 2. Nc3) but NEVER got a good game out of it. I saw a Brit chess magazine that was analyzing an oddball gambit called the Smith-Morra. This article looked at a way to decline it and thought that black could get into a lot of trouble from what looked like an easy position. The line was so simple I could remember it easily and gave it a shot when I ran into a much higher rated player. (had nothing to lose) March 4, 1973 - 2nd Greater L.A. Open Kimes Guilaroff (155

(1990) 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cd 3. c3 d5 4. ed Q:d5 5. cd Nc6 Take a look at this position. It looks like black has EVERYTHING he wants. In fact, almost any mistake leads to a ruinous game and with best play he barely holds on. White gains tempos on the queen and Qa4+ or Bb5+ is quite dangerous. Good thing he played this because it was the ONLY line in this entire opening system I knew! 6. Nf3 ... The magazine looked at Nc3 here instead. W sacs the queen pawn, queens get exchanged and W STILL gets a strong attack. ( 6 Nc3 Q:d4, 7 Q:d4 N:d4 8 Nb5! ... and black is hanging by a thread) But the play after Nf3 is almost as good without saccing a pawn. 6 ... Bg4 I'll gain a tempo kicking this too. 7. Nc3 Qh5 The queen is still exposed. 8. Be2 e6 9. O-O Bd6 Blacks not really in a position to attack. Needs to defend. 10.h3 B:f3 11.B:f3 Qa5 Run Queen, Run! 12.d5 O-O-O 13.dc Bh2+ Doesn't really help because his developed pieces leave the board and when I recapture my rook is in play. 14.K:h2 R:d1 15.cb+ Kc7 16.R:d1 g5 17.Be3 Ne7 18.B:a7 Resigns 9 minutes 1 hour 32 minutes! Thanks to this game I took up the Smith-Morra against the Sicilian and had a great winning percentage.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at May 26, 2012 04:50 PM (dAYnm)

2 (That should 1558, not 155 smiley face.) Without working it out, I'm guessing the win on the endgame involves playing Na1 and trapping the B K at a1 while his K-side pawns commit suicide.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at May 26, 2012 04:52 PM (dAYnm)

3 Uh, I think I'm going to be busy on the SpaceX thread for awhile.

Posted by: rickl at May 26, 2012 04:55 PM (sdi6R)

4 Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at May 26, 2012 04:57 PM (7W3wI)

5 OK, Dorkos...Its Part-A TIME!!

Posted by: dananjcon the job nazi at May 26, 2012 05:09 PM (CAE2S)

6 "Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable failure." Very sad news to report tonight. All of these developments have happened over the past year or so. My cousins small town Massachusetts Missouri Synod Lutheran church (socially conservative) has been switched to a socially liberal (evangelical lutheran church.) The church council voted the pastor out and the majority of members went along. Please pray for this pastor. The pastor graduated from Yale divinity and built the church from scratch 20 years ago. Now the pastor is unemployed and could loose his house. The pastors daughter has gotten a pregnant by a prisoner. Another daughter got her liberal arts degree and not considers her socially conservative minister father dead. His wife may leave him. Local police have been called to the former pastors house for domestic disturbances. My cousin does not know exactly what is going on. He said the socially conservative pastor blames the Internet and MSM for many of these problems. In recent years, many people from out of town/city have moved in and built big houses. Times are a changin. Please pray for this pastor and his family.

Posted by: Lampshade at May 26, 2012 05:11 PM (lkdo/)

7 7 Okay. I know almost nothing about chess. I know only how the pieces move, that's all.

But, in the "endgame" scenario posted above, why wouldn't the white king take the black pawn? Sure then the black king would take the white horse, but then the two sides would be even. Wouldn't that be an acceptable result?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 26, 2012 09:12 PM (7FadD)

I probably know about as much as you but that seems like a dead end for white and it would probably end in a draw. The black king would then just be able to keep the white king pinned along the edge unable to escape while the pawns cannot move because any move would likely end up in them being taken out.

Posted by: buzzion at May 26, 2012 05:18 PM (GULKT)

8 Posted by: chemjeff at May 26, 2012 09:12 PM (7FadD)
*
Jeff...Your racial overtones are completely unacceptable. Lampshade, my prayers are with you and your cousins flock. Strange times indeed.

Posted by: dananjcon at May 26, 2012 05:20 PM (CAE2S)

9 chemjeff, materially the sides would be even, but Black is in a waaay superior position: his King is poised to simply back up and snarf the White pawns on the other side of the board and White's King, which is now on the opposite edge of the board, cannot get back over there in time to stop the carnage. With the White pawns gone, Black wins easily.

Posted by: OregonMuse at May 26, 2012 05:21 PM (xm1A1)

10 Can White take that pawn en passant?

Posted by: t-bird at May 26, 2012 05:28 PM (FcR7P)

11 Can White take that pawn en passant?

No, that is a specialized move executed by another pawn,

Are you just mocking us chess geeks?

Posted by: fluffy at May 26, 2012 05:32 PM (z9HTb)

12 Why wouldn't the melanin-challenged patriarchical authority figure capture the person of color who is an oppressed member of the 99%?

Posted by: chemjeff at May 26, 2012 09:24 PM (7FadD)

Thats much more better. Very PC. You have reached total assimilation.

Posted by: dananjcon at May 26, 2012 05:36 PM (CAE2S)

'White to Move' answer is H2 to H3. The reason is that it will force Black to 3 moves: 1) move his pawn to H5 which he will lose to white pawn. 2) Move black pawn to A1; which he would then lose to the knight and allow the white king to move toward black pawns for destruction. 3) Black could retreat the king C1 or C2 but white knight could block with move to A1 and allow White king to A2 taking the pawn while retaining the white knight.

Posted by: airandee at May 26, 2012 05:39 PM (9GHCK)

14 No, not at all, I'm not good enough to be able to do that. Black's kind of screwed, he can't move his pawns. I can see him angling for a stalemate, so that must mean we're looking for a White win.

Posted by: t-bird at May 26, 2012 05:40 PM (FcR7P)

15 Awesome, that first game. A interesting move would be b3-c3. This forces the Black king to move to either b2 or d1 (all other moves lose). Then, White can move h2-h3, with a likely but not forced win.

Okay...so I'm a chess geek.

Posted by: Mr_Write at May 26, 2012 05:42 PM (CLkAH)

16 h3...white wins.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 05:47 PM (X/+QT)

17 How did the white king get into a position that places him in check?

Posted by: Fritz at May 26, 2012 05:49 PM (ZN5qR)

18 Lampshade, my prayers are with you and your cousins flock. Strange times indeed. The new female pastor is a lesbian. The church is now open to gay marriage. Traditions have been torn down. Wonder what other traditions will be dropped/replaced?

Posted by: Lampshade at May 26, 2012 05:49 PM (lkdo/)

19 Nevermind. Kill the soon-to-be queen.

Posted by: Fritz at May 26, 2012 05:51 PM (ZN5qR)

20 The chess thread makes me de-lurk. Or want to de-lurk.

Posted by: sinmi at May 26, 2012 05:57 PM (MNWe/)

21 'White to Move' answer is H2 to H3 Why would black not move his king a square to the left?

Posted by: t-bird at May 26, 2012 05:57 PM (FcR7P)

22 Reminder that Stossel is on at in a few minutes and is titled "Rich Man, Poor Man". It looks good.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 26, 2012 05:58 PM (piMMO)

23 24 'White to Move' answer is H2 to H3

Why would black not move his king a square to the left?

If Black does K:B1, White checks with knight N:A3 forcing the black king to either (i) hide behind the pawn (where he will be trapped by white K:C2 allowing the knight to go free and kill the other pawns) or (ii) escape back to C1 (which lets white king capture the pawn and white knight is no longer threatened).

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 06:02 PM (X/+QT)

24 Low spark...high heeled boys...Barak.

Posted by: dananjcon at May 26, 2012 06:06 PM (CAE2S)

25 I can haz ONT??

Posted by: dananjcon at May 26, 2012 06:08 PM (CAE2S)

26 'White to Move' answer is H2 to H3. Doesn't matter. It's a draw.

Posted by: someguy at May 26, 2012 06:10 PM (sEXZ/)

27 Onward, white pawns! Onward... to bigamy!

Posted by: White King at May 26, 2012 06:11 PM (Ramfg)

28 Re: 28. Then it's a stalemate in that white can't force the black king from circling / staying next to the knight. There's no real next king-move or strategy for white after that since black can just move its king to the right. No change to the scenario.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 06:11 PM (X/+QT)

29 White to move Kc3 - next move is checkmate.

Posted by: Paul Morphy at May 26, 2012 06:11 PM (BB0/w)

30 Re 31: He was playing against McCain?

I denounce myself.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 06:13 PM (X/+QT)

31 Chess Boxing - WTF?

Any videos of topless chess?

Posted by: kbdabear at May 26, 2012 06:14 PM (Y+DPZ)

32 If Black does K:B1... I'd be great at chess if they'd eliminate the cheaters who think a move or two ahead.

Posted by: t-bird at May 26, 2012 06:15 PM (FcR7P)

33 37 Okay, how about if white moves the horse to the lower left corner, blocking the black pawn from becoming a queen?

That might work too. Produces white victory again as long as white can use its knight effectively once it's freed up in a move or two (since black king has to leave the corner and head to the other side within 2 moves).

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 06:19 PM (X/+QT)

34 ^^ Oops, slightly diff scenario but the knight will have to vacate the blocking position (after being threatened by the king) and it's basically back to the starting position.

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 06:24 PM (X/+QT)

35 I would go:

K-C3 ...

Black has to move. Only options are A1, H5, K-B1, K-D1. Moving a pawn will get it captured by either a pawn or the knight so A1 and H5 are out. K-D1 leaves K-B2 for white to capture the kingside pawn while the knight tries to hold the queenside position from the black king. K-B1 allows white to try to trap the black king in front of the pawn and force black to play H5 and lose.

Either:
1 K-C3 K-B1
2 N-A1 KxN
3 K-C2 H5
4 PxP    G4
5 H6     G3
6 H7     G2 (or H2)
7 H8 (make a bishop for fun and mate)

Or:

1 K-C3 K-D1
2 K-B2 K-E2
3 N-D4+ K-F2
4 N-F5 K-G2
5 NxP KxP
6 KxP ...

At this point black is 5 moves from reaching the knight and N-F5 will then require 3 moves of the black king to menace the pawn. Meanwhile the white king is free to come to the queenside and eventually tagteam the remaining pawn with the knight. Together they can queen the remaining white pawn and win.

Posted by: CAL at May 26, 2012 06:45 PM (JDIe+)

36 Na1 wins

I had a similar position in a correspondence game a number of years ago

1. Na1 Kb1 2. Kc3! Ka1 3. Kc2 h5 4. gh5 g4 5. h6 g3 6. h7 gh2 h8B mate

Beautiful!

Posted by: MFG at May 26, 2012 08:35 PM (Z0HHh)

37 A game of mine from 1986 (I am White) against a fairly strong master:

White K on b7
White P's on a7 g2 and h3

Black K on d6
Black N on c7
Black P's on f6 g5 and h7

After 52. g4!! the game cannot be won by Black, even a piece ahead

52...Na8 53. Kc8 Kc6 54. Kd8 Kd6 55. Kc8 h6 56. Kb7 Nc7 57. Kb6 Kd7 58. Kb7 Na8 59. Kb8 Kc6 60. Kc8 Nb6+ 61. Kb8 Kb5 62. Kb7 Ka5 63. Kc7 Ka6 Drawn

Posted by: MFG at May 26, 2012 08:49 PM (Z0HHh)

38 Love these chess threads, keep 'em coming!

Posted by: MFG at May 26, 2012 08:50 PM (Z0HHh)

39 Well upon reflection my 1. Na1 fails to 1...Kd2 so...

I dunno

Posted by: MFG at May 26, 2012 09:02 PM (Z0HHh)

The chess puzzle:
As far as I can see this is a guaranteed win for White.

White moves P-h3. Now anything Black does will lead to defeat.

The setting in the lower left is a separate skirmish and as it sits, as long as white doesnÂ’t move until after Black, White will easily win. If Black moves K-b1, then Kn-a3! And the K retreats to c1 allowing the White K to capture the pawn at a2, or the K steps into prison at a1, which would lead to a draw except there is the other skirmish that white wins by forcing black to move and be captured at h5.
If the Black K goes to d1 than the white Kn goes to a1 and then takes the pawn at a2 at itÂ’s leisure.

Posted by: TSgt Ciz at May 26, 2012 09:03 PM (af5xa)

41 OK

1. Kc3 makes it work

1...Kd1 2. Kd3 Kc1 3. Na1!! Kb1 4. Kd2 Ka1 5. Kc2 then the rest as above

Posted by: MFG at May 26, 2012 09:08 PM (Z0HHh)

42 Wow,
Sorry bout that. dunno why all that formatting $#!7 showed up.

Whut I said was:
The chess puzzle:

As far as I can see this is a guaranteed win for White.

White moves P-h3. Now anything Black does will lead to
defeat.

The setting in the lower left is a separate skirmish and as it sits, as long as
white doesnÂ’t move until after Black, White will easily win. If Black moves
K-b1, then Kn-a3! And the K retreats to c1 allowing the White K to capture the
pawn at a2, or the K steps into prison at a1, which would lead to a draw except
there is the other skirmish that white wins by forcing black to move and be
captured at h5.

If the Black K goes to d1 than the white Kn goes to a1 and then takes the pawn
at a2 at itÂ’s leisure.

Posted by: TSgt Ciz at May 26, 2012 09:14 PM (af5xa)

43 I did "One night in Bangkok" at Kareoke tonight in honor of this thread. lol

Posted by: Tonic Dog at May 26, 2012 11:06 PM (X/+QT)

44 h3 yields zugzwang and white wins. TS has a similar idea, but I'm don't think the details are quite right. After .....b1 Na3+ doesn't win yet because white has to move after ....a1 If Nc2+ then ....b2 and then what does white do? Both sides are in zugzwang -- I'm going to use that term at least once more -- as far as the pawns on files g and h go. But that's the key to the problem. Because: Kc2! gives black nowhere to legally move his king. Hence....zugswang! He must move a pawn and lose. I think.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 05:53 AM (Xi3v1)

45 Just to be clear, the idea is: 1. h3 b1 (d1 can't work*) 2. Na3+ a1 (or black loses his passed pawn) 3. Kc2! wins for white Because black is in...wait for it -- zugszwang! *This is actually more complex than it appears, because white has to move Ka2 in order to free up his N to protect his pawns and harass black's after black's ....e2. But moving the N to e3 wins, because f5 sacrificing the h file pawn yields Nxh6 wins back the pawn and protecting the g file pawn.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 06:09 AM (Xi3v1)

46 Re:43 MFG

The problem with N-A1 is that the black king doesn't have to come to the pawn. If allowed to go for the kingside, he will go to the white pawns and now the knight is out of position to defend.

1. N-A1 K-D2
2 KxP K-E3
3 N-C2+ K-F3
4 H3 K-G3
5 ...

No way to save the kingside position. White might even lose.

You have to keep the King pinned with K-C3 and then play N-A1 and N-B3 if he refuses to get trapped in the corner. From B3 the knight can still get to D4-F5-H6 to defend the G4 pawn if the black king tries to run.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 06:17 AM (JDIe+)

47 Re: 52 DJ

Same problem I was talking about in last post. K-D2 is the move if possible for black.

1 H3 K-D2

Now what? If white takes the pawn, he loses the knight and black is two columns closer to the remaining pawns. If white moves the knight anywhere but A1, the pawn queens. You used the only pawn push with H3 already so the only move I see is N-A1.

2 N-A1 K-E3 and see last post because now the white pawns are lost.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 06:25 AM (JDIe+)

48 We need a JavaScript chess programs were you feed it the record of the game moves and it runs them.

Posted by: LiveFreeOrDie at May 27, 2012 06:39 AM (BaPp7)

49 Oops, they have it the link, of course. Is there no open source code we can use?

Posted by: LiveFreeOrDie at May 27, 2012 06:42 AM (BaPp7)

50 CAL (54): Cunning! And too hard for me, a simple wood pusher, to analyze to the end without a board in front of me. But after - 1. h3 d2 2. b2 Now black promotes and white captures with the N. 4. ...e3 5. Nb2 f3 6. d4 g3 7. f5 h4 capturing white's pawn 8. h6 capturing black's pawn and protecting the g file pawn Now do you think black can race his K around the before white's K can come help? (Really wish I had a board handy.) Or am I missing something?

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 07:01 AM (Xi3v1)

51 oops make that 7. ....h3

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 07:02 AM (Xi3v1)

52 Another typo (I ought to just give up): 5. Nb3 not b2, of course.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 07:08 AM (Xi3v1)

53 I think you are right if black promotes, so don't do that.

1 H3 K-D2
2 K-B2 K-D3!

White still can't take the pawn without losing the knight. Knight has two possible checks at B4 and E1 but they both put him in a bad spot for catching the king when it runs. Black will just keep moving D2-D3 until white forces the issue I think.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 07:26 AM (JDIe+)

54 I think the best move is K-QB3.

Posted by: rtw at May 27, 2012 08:53 AM (pPmyV)

55 Haven't figured out a white answer to CAL's line yet, or even if that leads to a draw or black win (CAL: were you implying that black wins with d3?), so trying to think about other first moves for white. @rtw: After 1. c3 d1 -- then what? 2. d3 c1 Then the white king can't attack the black pawns without losing the N, and the white N can't move without losing the game to a pawn promotion. What's the strategy you see for white here, when black keeps the N under attack while threatening promotion? There's an annoying series of N checks possible, but do you see it leading to an advantage?

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 09:47 AM (Xi3v1)

56 Re:62 DJ

Not saying black can win but it gets really ugly if it ends up king and knight vs king and two pawns. Definitely don't want to let it get to that point as it is at best a draw for white.

Here is a cut and paste from comment 42 for how I see 1. c3 d1 playing out:

1 K-C3 K-D1
2 K-B2 K-E2
3 N-D4+ K-F2
4 N-F5 K-G2
5 NxP KxP
6 KxP ...

At this point black is 5 moves from reaching the knight and N-F5 will then require 3 moves of the black king to menace the pawn. Meanwhile the white king is free to come to the queenside and eventually tagteam the remaining pawn with the knight. Together they can queen the remaining white pawn and win.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 11:00 AM (JDIe+)

57 CAL: Finally have a board to play with. I still think it's a white win on this line. What's the response to: 1. h3 d2 2. b2 d3 3. b4+ If black races for the pawn, it goes: 3. ....e3 4. d5+ f3 5. f6 g3 6. g7 Kxh3 7. Nxh6 Black can promote but even so, he can't get around the white N - P formation, as far as I can see. This looks like a white win to me. The black king can't attack the white pawn because it's protected, and can't simultaneously attack both N and pawn. Why isn't this just a white win, then? Sorry about ignoring post 63 but I don't see how it applies to this line.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 11:53 AM (Xi3v1)

58 OK now I've looked at your post 63, which I now see is a white win, and I think I can force the same white win with the line above. That white N-P structure is so strong that even though the white K is way over on a, black has no good means of threatening the N and P at the same time, or attacking the P as long as the N stays in place.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 11:57 AM (Xi3v1)

59 DJ, I was thinking along the lines of Cal at 10:45 PM (and again at 3:00 pm). But then I dusted off a board to look at it and came across this continuation that is trouble for White.

1 K-QB3 K-Q8
2 K-QKt2 P-QR8(Q)+
3 KtxP K-K7

I don't do well in algebra, but I guess in that notation, it would look like this (damn kids stay off my lawn)

1 K-c3 K-d1
2 K-b2 a1(Q)+
3 Kt x Q K-e2

Posted by: rtw at May 27, 2012 12:14 PM (pPmyV)

60 Re: 64

Black doesn't need to go to e3, he can go to e4 and prevent white knight to d5 or d3.

1. h3 d2
2. b2 d3
3. b4+ e4

Now what?

Black king is four moves from taking both pawns. At a minimum I think he can get the H3 pawn and threaten the G4 pawn pinning the knight in a protection role while being free to move the king to H4 and then advance the H6 pawn to force a trade.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 12:18 PM (JDIe+)

61 Note this alternative response to h3 doesn't work for black either: 1. h3 b1 2. a3+ a1 (forced, as c1 loses pawn) 3. K-c2! Which puts black in zugswang (i.e., he has to make a losing move). rtw: will look at your line next.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 12:18 PM (Xi3v1)

62 Re: 67 (CAL) 4. c6 f4 5. e7 g3 6. g7 Kxh3 7. Nxh6 wins for white, right?

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 12:26 PM (Xi3v1)

63 Re:66 DJ

I think you are right. Queening the pawn buys an extra step for the black king. Need to think about it now.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 12:29 PM (JDIe+)

64 66 (rtw) Actually I think white wins this way too, although I'm not sure whether your continuation is best for black. But if I understand you, you don't now think K-QB3 is a winner for white. So if you're right, and I'm right (which is by no means certain!) then h3 is the winner for white. Now I'll wait for CAL (or anyone else) to see if I've missed something. But I think h3 is a white win and the puzzle is solved! CAL: Just saw #70. You're right that black can gain tempo by promoting, but Nxh6 is so strong that I don't think it matters.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 12:35 PM (Xi3v1)

65 Re: 69 (DJ)

To recap, we have:

1. h3 d2
2. b2 d3
3. b4+ e4
4. c6 f4
5. e7 g3
6. g7 Kxh3
7. Nxh6

I would go 4 .. H5 instead. If white takes the pawn,

1. h3 d2
2. b2 d3
3. b4+ e4
4. c6 h5
5 Pxh5 f5
6 e7+ f6
7 g8+ g7
8 e7 h6

If white refuses the pawn,

1. h3 d2
2. b2 d3
3. b4+ e4
4. c6 h5
5 e7 Pxg4
6 Pxg4 f4
7 g8 Kxg4 // knight is too late to protect.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 01:49 PM (JDIe+)

66 Okay here is my revised solution and with luck without formatting wierdness.

1 c3 d1
2 d3 c1
3 h3 d1
4 c3 e2
5 b2 f2
6 d4 g3
7 f5+ Kxh3
8 Nxh6 ...

Keep the king trapped and force him back to advance the rook pawn. That buys enough time for the knight to make it to H6 and defend. The only time black could promote the pawn without the king taking it would be before the 5th move and there is enough time for the knight to catch back up this way.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 02:56 PM (JDIe+)

67 Nice idea. But what about this instead for white, after taking the pawn, with play going according to your (first) scenario until: 7. h6 f7 (forced) 8. f5 g6 (or whatever else protects against promotion) 9. Kxa2 Now black's position looks hopeless. He's got tempo but nothing to do with it. The black K has to stay where it is or retreat to h7, or else the white pawn gets promoted. And pushing the black pawn loses. So isn't black forced to move back and forth between g6 and h7, pointlessly, while white's K marches inevitably over for the kill? I don't see a better option for black after 7. h6 in which case it's still a win for white.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 03:52 PM (0bQPJ)

68 Oops, I was working on the line in #72 so my #74 responds to that. I'll have to see if it works against your #73. After dinner!

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 03:55 PM (0bQPJ)

69 I believe (I may be wrong due to the considerable number of comments--it gets hard to keep track of everything that's been said) that comments heretofore have missed a pretty variation in here, which is also the best way for Black to try to resist--keeping his king around b1 and c1, because this prevents White from committing his knight until the Zugzwang shown below:

1. h3 Kb1 2. Kc3 Kc1 3. Na1 Kd1 (3... Kb1 4. Nb3! Zugzwang--this is the pretty part that breaks Black at last) 4. Nb3 Ke2 5. Kb2 Kf3 (doesn't really matter exactly how Black's king gets to h3--it's just a question of counting the moves) 6. Nd4+ Kg3 7. Nf5+ Kxh3 8. Nxh6 and +- as other comments have shown.

I had a chance to use this position with one of my students today. I didn't have time to put anything else together for the lesson, so these chess threads are starting to come in handy. Thanks, Oregon!

Posted by: Philip at May 27, 2012 04:06 PM (l5jGY)

70
Re: 74 I think that works. Black can't take the knight without the pawn advancing so he is stuck. I still prefer mine (which I find simpler) but I don't see any way for black to force a draw either way.

Posted by: CAL at May 27, 2012 05:07 PM (JDIe+)

71 Philip (#76): I'm loathe to respond to anyone who has chess students. But, to recapitulate my #68, after your 1. h3 Kb1 Why not 2. Na3+ Isn't 2. ....Ka1 forced? But then 3. Kc2 wins for white. Right? If 2. ....Ka3 then white takes the black pawn, and the white N gets to the winning h6 in time.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 05:12 PM (0bQPJ)

72 phillip, isn't 1....Kb1 going to be met by by 2. Kt-R3+?

Posted by: rtw at May 27, 2012 05:17 PM (pPmyV)

73 Oops again. In the last line of #78 it should be 2....Kc1 (not Ka3). And while I'm at it, "loathe" should be "loath." But whatever. rtw: We're on the same page. CAL: Glad you agree! If your solution works then there are (at least) two solutions for white to force a win. I fooled around with your variation inconclusively, but thought it got very messy. Will see if I can remember what worried me, but at this point in the evening I may have had one bourbon too many. Fun exchange, though -- thanks.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 05:32 PM (0bQPJ)

74 CAL: Now I remember why I thought it got messy. What do you do about: 4. ...c1 The idea being that the black king just mirrors the white K, with the threat of KxN keeping the white K from being able to engage the pawns. White has to move his N to avoid stalemate. If 5. Ne3+ then Kc1 forcing the white N back to c2. Then the black K goes back to mirroring the white K.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 05:55 PM (0bQPJ)

75 Sorry, definitely one too many bourbons. Ignore the last paragraph entirely, please, as it's nonsense. Thank you. I think I stand by the rest, foolishly.

Posted by: DJ at May 27, 2012 05:57 PM (0bQPJ)

76 DJ #78 (see, I knew I missed something) & rtw #79: True. But I just thought the zugzwang I mentioned was pretty.