1 FIRST?

2 He could turn it back at them by saying "...and I'll do the same thing in Washington"

3 "At some point....you've made enough money."
- BHO NOOT

4 The 'rich-guy' attacks may suck, but that is why Plough has been salivating over Romney. That and he said he has 'No Core.' If he can't take the class warfare from Newt, he's gonna be crying when the experts at class warfare hit him this fall.

5 Woke up depressed this morning.  This doesn't help.  Buying my water filter and some more shells this month.  Stock up, morons.

6 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

7 "The guy is carpet-bombing and napalming everyone he considers a threat. I just can't see the carpet-bombing in return as unprovoked."

Blowback? 

8 He could turn it back at them by saying "...and I'll do the same thing in Washington"

He could, actually.  That would be fairly smooth.  Instead, he and his supporters have chosen to go with, "You can't say that!"

9 With around-the-clock news and the internet, I think Reagan's 11th commandment would be nigh impossible to adhere to.

10 karma is a bitch

11 It really doesn't help him that the base already dislikes him.  If Romney were less threatening to the base, this kind of thing might not have worked or come up. 

We're not comfortable with him, though, so it gains some traction.

The problem is that Mitt Romney would have to start running against the man of that same name who's been running for roughly the last year to make us comfortable with him.  Which gets into paradox land, since it's hard to trust/be comfortable with someone who flip-flops just for political gain.

12 ARCLIGHT, ARCLIGHT, ARCLIGHT...

13 Romney is a douche.

That said, this is seriously stupid.  So he worked with a capital firm that identified and then either acquired or leveraged businesses that were already in trouble, cut out the fat (including some human capital, that goes with the territory), and flipped them for profit.  God forbid.

The argument could just as easily be made that he was saving jobs and companies from the bankruptcy meat grinder.  In any event, there's nothing wrong with legally making money by acquiring, paring down, and then re-selling businesses.

This is not an issue Republicans should be making a big deal out of.

14
surprisingly, Ron Paul this morning on with Laura Ingraham gave a much better defense of Romney/Bain than Romney did himself.

Ron Paul put it simply: Of course it is okay to restructure firms in a free market system.

15 With around-the-clock news and the internet, I think Reagan's 11th commandment would be nigh impossible to adhere to. Whether you say it or not, we are honor-bound to report it.

16 He may as well face these questions in the primary and have the issue dealt with for the general election.

17 Romney sucks, but criticizing capitalism sucks more. 

18 Do we not live in a capitalistic society? There are winners, there are losers! Sometimes you can't save everyones fucking job!! Now go to Washington and downsize the fucking government.

19 Mitt will hit this one out of the park when the time is right. I think he was saving the salvo for Obama, not republicans and got caught counting his chickens.

20 Whether it's unprovoked isn't the question.

Whether it's a smart attack is. I want a smaller government, and that's going to mean some people lose their jobs even though there are millionaires and billionaires who are going to stay rich.
Hopefully, a government that isn't picking winners and losers and isn't absorbing so much money will lead to an economy that has jobs for the people who get laid off.

But anybody who tries to win the nomination by saying it's unfair that people lose their jobs while other people get rich is boxing himself into a big-government-forever corner.
That's just shortsighted.

21

chemjeff nailed it on the last thread, it's watching Republicans use Dem talking points to go at each other that is making my eye twitch.

AllenG, you got me my cookies and booze, right?

22 I am very tired of all of the ugliness.

23 Did anyone do a post about this --

The AP's 2012 Playbook for Romney

24 ZeroHedge has up an old evaluation of the PE sector ...

And while these companies life expectations are limited at best, regardless of how Hertz' lawsuit against anyone who has a sell rating against the firm goes, the biggest threat is to the entire PE industry, which just like the CRE space, will be facing a massive refi threat into 2014. Between 2011 and 2014, there is roughly half a trillion in LBO debt maturing. Add that to the $1.5 trillion in bank debt due for rolling, and the roughly $3 trillion in CRE debt that is also supposed to be refinanced, and one can see how the next president will have his arms full as he/she will need to find a way to roll about $5 trillion in debt without the benefit of securitizations. Furthermore, since the economy will be on stimulus #10 by then courtesy of a drunk with power Obama, America will be on fast track to sovereign and corporate Armageddon.

... no wonder they need a PE expert as President.

25 This is the height of the desperation season, anything goes. The thing is to watch for the people who totally go insane in these primary battles. They all end up begging the winner for a job or access after the fact. And they won't get it.

26 Napalm in the morning may smell like Victory in war, but in Politics it just smells like failure.

27 He may as well face these questions in the primary and have the issue dealt with for the general election. Um. That's not how it's gonna work. It won't be "dealt" with for the general. The MSM will see to that.

28 OT - Here's an interesting contrast:

Obama: Republicans Want to Emulate China, Roll Back Minimum Wage, Prevent Unionization

However, prominent Obama backer and Union Man Andy Stern sez that China's economic model is superior:

Andy Stern: China's Superior Economic Model

29 The stakes are too high for us to lose this election. At this point I don't really care who the nominee is, we just need to win. There is no guarantee that if the economy and our debt collapses us that the pubilc is all of a sudden going to wake up to freedom. Instead they will probably want full blown socialism and then we will be in big trouble.

30 >>>That said, this is seriously stupid. So he worked with a capital firm that identified and then either acquired or leveraged businesses that were already in trouble, cut out the fat (including some human capital, that goes with the territory), and flipped them for profit. God forbid. One thing though is that Romney always says he was a "businessman." Most people assume that means someone like Cain, who's actually producing a product. Like building a computer company up. Bain I guess is producing a product, but it's an intangible one, "efficiency" or something.

31
chemjeff nailed it on the last thread...

I said it first.
Don't let me catch you again skipping my comments, you.

32 If Romney were a conservative or at the very least a halfway competent politician, he could take the opportunity to defend free market capitalism and make the case that he plans to do with the federal government what he did with failong, inefficient companies at bain. But no, Romney must wait to see if the polling says he should defend himself or not, and leaves it up to Romney haters like me to provide his defense. When does the meteor get here?

33
I thought Bain owned Staples?

34 "If elected President, will you pledge to not fire anybody, unlike Mitt Romney?"

35 The funny thing is, too, that Romney barely got attacked at all in any debates and not even in too many ads. And yet his Super-PAC has demolished people with negative ads (Gingrich sure doesn't feel like those ads were fair), and he's consistently gotten out the flame-thrower at debates. This is why Huckabee stayed in the race in 2008 just to keep Romney from having a chance to win. Romney really pisses people off with the hardball.

36 Chris Wallace nailed Debbie Wasserman-Schultz yesterday asking what the difference between layoffs at companies Romney invested in through Bain and layoffs at Solyndra.

37 Im fine with all this.  If Romney is our eventual nominee, this can effectively inoculate him against such attacks later on.

38 >>>I thought Bain owned Staples? It used to, but by "own" I think we mean "was a significant investor." I'm not sure. But I'm guessing Bain was just a venture capitalist investor there, and did not really own it the way a sole proprietor owns something. Owned a share.

39 Bain I guess is producing a product, but it's an intangible one, "efficiency" or something.

Surely we don't want someone like that leading the executive branch.

40 BAAAIIIINNNSSS !!! BAAAIIIINNNSSS !!! (We have no) BRAAAIIINNSS

41
Nevermind Solyndra.

Obama shut down how many car dealerships???

42 The argument could just as easily be made that he was saving jobs and companies from the bankruptcy meat grinder.  In any event, there's nothing wrong with legally making money by acquiring, paring down, and then re-selling businesses.

This is not an issue Republicans should be making a big deal out of.

It could- and it's up to the Romney camp to make them.  Just like it was up to Perry to defend his statement that Social Security is essentially a Ponzi scheme.

Again: the double-standard.  Mittens made the attack, and even Perry's supporters said "Dude, that's low.  But it may as well be addressed now."  Okay, so these are low blows.  Politics ain't bean-bag.

43 Raising fees for death certificates?  You better declare the pennies on your eyes.

44 We are electing a President, not stockholders choosing a CEO. Romney has to address this in terms that make sense in Ohio and PA; the same way Perry has to address the SS issue in FL. "I like to fire people" is a hard sell at 16% unemployment, there are many Romney supporters who are only on his wagon based on his electability, this hits at his core strength in the primaries.

45
And how many businesses did Obama use as a backdrop only to later shut its doors?

46 The thing is is that these attacks on Romeny are tone death. I want to fire everyone. Newt! was the one who said that if libs were in charge, they would have outlawed the car to keep blacksmiths in business. Nuke away but beware of the backlash of pissing off people because your attacks are idiotic and expose you as being a RINO.

47 "I don't completely believe that. If you look down this list, there seem to be some things which government should charge people for. After all, it costs government money to provide stuff." There's a difference between raising fees to cover raised costs and raising fees to generate revenue to pay for other shite.

48 when that orange fuckwit Charlie Crist doubled what it cost me to renew my tag or drivers license i considered it a tax increase.

49 Staples was started by a couple guys in the supply business who had the idea but not the cash. Romney provided the cash and business guidance. Voila, Staples.

50 Awesome.

It used to be our system valued "executive experience".

But, hey, fuck that. That means making decisions. Maybe even firing people.

So, no businessman (dirty, capitalistic monkey-fuckers) and no governors (right-wing donkey-suckers).

Nope, best to only have Presidents who spend their entire fucking lives in "public service". Ideally as a legislature. Maybe some time in non-profits.

Much better this way. Nobody ever gets fired. No blame has to be taken.

The ideal candidate will never have held a private sector job or had any actual authority.

America, fuck yeah!

51 33

Bain did a couple of things, from restructuring to basic venture capitalism.

In the case of Staples, Bain found a small store that was focusing on a bunch of things and found that the store was only successful in moving office supplies. They offered to give them a big financial boost if the store would concentrate exclusively on office supplies and cut out everything else. And thus, Staples was born.

52 I do not think it is inconsistent to both defend capitalism and knock Romney. 

As a corporate "looter", Romney played by the rules.  He didn't do anything the founders of companies could not have done, rather than sell-out to Romney so he could do it.

But those people chose not to do those things.  Romney did.  The fact that what he did was legal - and even may have done some economic good - does not mean he is a model for national leadership.  Just as there are manufacturers of high quality widgets and low quality widgets.  There may well be a value to having low-quality widgets, but it does not mean you want to make that manufacturer a national ideal.

There are other people who play by the rules and build real solid enterprises - building high quality widgets.  Or a high-quality political record, even.  That takes time, patience, character, etc.  Maybe that's a better ideal for national leadership.

53 One thing though is that Romney always says he was a "businessman." Most people assume that means someone like Cain, who's actually producing a product. Like building a computer company up. Posted by: ace at January 10, 2012 02:00 PM (nj1bB) Cain didn't produce a product, he managed the producers of a product. He also basically did similar things Bain did in order to fix the company. From Wiki: On his arrival on April 1, 1986, Cain told employees, "I'm Herman Cain and this ain't no April Fool's joke. We are not dead. Our objective is to prove to Pillsbury and everyone else that we will survive. Godfather's Pizza was performing poorly, having slipped in ranks of pizza chains from third in 1985 to fifth in 1988. Under Cain's leadership, Godfather's closed approximately 200 restaurants and eliminated several thousand jobs, and by doing so returned to profitability. In a leveraged buyout in 1988, Cain, Executive Vice-President and COO Ronald B. Gartlan, and a group of investors bought Godfather's from Pillsbury.

54 There's a difference between raising fees to cover raised costs and raising fees to generate revenue to pay for other shite.

I think that's what ace was saying.  It's legit to raise fees, but raising 700 Mil (or whatever it was) by raising fees qualifies as a de facto "tax increase."

55 36 Chris Wallace nailed Debbie Wasserman-Schultz yesterday...
______

Pssst! It's Tuesday! You might want to cut down a bit on the Valu-Rite.

56 "In 1990, Romney was asked to return to Bain & Company, which was facing financial collapse. He was announced as its new CEO in January 1991 (but drew only a symbolic salary of one dollar). Romney managed an effort to restructure the firm's employee stock-ownership plan, real-estate deals and bank loans, while rallying the firm's thousand employees, imposing a new governing structure that included Bain and the other founding partners giving up control, and increasing fiscal transparency. Within about a year, he had led Bain & Company through a turnaround and returned the firm to profitability without further layoffs or partner defections. He turned Bain & Company over to new leadership and returned to Bain Capital in December 1992." — Wikipedia Yeah, this guy definitely sucks.

57 Mitt is all for firing people and all for government-mandated health insurance.

58 When I was at Michigan State in the '80's, the Administration raised fees, not tuition.  The fees, however, were assessed per each credit hour, obviously making it no different than a tuition increase.  There's nothing new under the sun.

59 "I like to fire people" is a hard sell at 16% unemployment, there are many Romney supporters who are only on his wagon based on his electability, this hits at his core strength in the primaries. Posted by: Jean at January 10, 2012 02:04 PM (WkuV6) It's taken completely out of context but pay no never mind to that and continue to spread the bullshit

60 Wow.....Perry and Gingrich ought to just make it official and switch over to the democrat party. The desperation coming from their failing campaigns is palpable.

61 Bain I guess is producing a product, but it's an intangible one, "efficiency" or something. Posted by: ace

Restructuring really comes down to HR; firing and hiring the next group of people to run a company. Think of the worst company you've worked for. Think of what you would have changed if you had free reign. Usually that means firing the assholes who run the place.

62  36 Chris Wallace nailed Debbie Wasserman-Schultz yesterday...
  Talk about 'taking one for the team'!?

63 I just hope Romney gets his ass stomped in the south. lets get some of the also rans out of the way and see how that 25% ceiling works for mittens

64 Does anyone really doubt that Newt and Perry are really against capitalism? Can't anyone see this as a purely political tactic?

65

I have less of an repulsion toward fees than I do at taxes.  Fees by their nature are typically avoidable with a fair amount of effort...

Don't want to take the Tri State Tollway (thanks Illinois for raising your tolls again)?  Hop on IL-47, take it to Interstate 80! 

Don't want to pay a cremation fee?  Don't die.  Or opt for a funeral at sea.   

Don't want to pay a real estate transaction fee?  Squat; it works for my idiot brother. 

66 Stolen from the net:

President Obama's first chief of staff Rahm Emanuel once sat on the board of troubled federal mortgage giant Freddie Mac. Bill Daley, the president's chief of staff whose departure was announced today, was previously a top executive at financial firm J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. So of course there should be little surprise that Obama's latest chief of staff, announced today by the president himself, also has deep ties to the financial industry himself.

From 2006-2008, Jack Lew was chief operating officer of Citibank's alternative investments division. And it was his division that made billions of dollars betting "U.S. homeowners would not be able to make their mortgage payments,"

67 Obama just fired 500,000 U.S. Troops.

_{^{so there's that}}

68 I've having Cain withdrawal.  I miss that black man. 

69 As I said in the other thread.  If elected, I hope he uses the exact Bain model in Washington.  Save 78% of the government agencies by making them more efficient and let the other 22% fail or close.  This is a winner politically in my book.  More Bain less Massachusettes.

70 Well I live in Cali; yes fee's are taxes.

When government provides a "service" I'll guarantee there is no one else you could possibly buy it from, and second, there is likely little or no way you can go through life and avoid using said service.

71 I can promise you that the Bain attacks move votes.  A lot of votes.  I can also tell you why the campaigns are reluctant to use the attacks:

1) The consultants running several of the campaigns have decided that Mitt Romney will be the nominee.  Why are they still allowing their candidates' campaigns to continue, then?

2) Because consultants don't get paid when campaigns are over.  How do they get paid?  Some salary, but mainly through ad buys -- they get a cut for every dollar's worth of ads they run.  So how does this explain the kid-glove treatment for Romney?

3) Most consultants have no soul.  They exist to make money and will work for anyone.  Including Romney, who has more money than anyone.

The major campaigns are refusing to mount sustained attacks against Romney/Bain for a single reason:  The consultants who run them are desperate to work for Romney once he clinches the nomination.

Welcome to politics, Tea Partiers.  It's not enough to win a few seats in the House.  We need to burn down the entire political class, from head to toe.  Members, staff, consultants, etc.  They are the hidden cancer on the Republican Party.

72 Seriously, fuck the Republican Party if it's gonna go down the road of attacking anybody who ever had to fire anybody. Fucking retarded. I expect that from the maggot left.

73 It's taken completely out of context but pay no never mind to that and continue to spread the bullshit

Yes. it is taken completely out of context.  So?  You think it's not something he'll have to defend?  Is he capable of defending the statement or not?

The Romney camp's primary argument in this race has always been that he's soooooo electable.  Well, part of being electable is being able to defend what you said.  It is not saying, "Hey, that's not fair!"

Well, right now, Romney's camp is basically saying, "Hey, that's not fair!" instead of saying, "It's by having the ability to fire the unproductive worker that a business is able to keep the productive workers employed," or whatever they want their counter argument to be.

Do you really think that Republicans (who suck at messaging) are the only ones who are going to target a remark like "I like to be able to fire people...?"

74 PAT PAULSEN!!!

75

 Or opt for a funeral at sea. 

 

Try looking into that...it isn't as easy as you'd think. 

Unless you are assasinated by our President, that is.

Ron Paul!

76 Don't let me catch you again skipping my comments, you.

Posted by: soothie at January 10, 2012 02:01 PM (sqkOB)

Who do you think I am, Breitbart or something?  (sorry sorry abject apologies etc.)

The Perry vultures crack bugs me more and more.  If a company needs to go under, it should.  There's nothing wrong with another company coming in and snapping up the assets at fire sale prices.  Circle of life, etc. 

There's nothing wrong with what your business produces being money.  Hell, isn't that what every company's main product is or at least should be?  The point of making the widget isn't the widget, it's the cold hard cash that someone else will give me for the widget.  If Bill Gates' skill set were in, idefk, mousetraps, he would have made those instead of stealing dos software. 

Hell, let's go back to the stealing dos crack.  He saw value in it that those who owned it didn't.  He had the vision to leverage it into something else.  Whining that he got it for far less than value is just that.  Whining. 

77 We are electing a President, not stockholders choosing a CEO. Romney has to address this in terms that make sense in Ohio and PA; the same way Perry has to address the SS issue in FL. "I like to fire people" is a hard sell at 16% unemployment, there are many Romney supporters who are only on his wagon based on his electability, this hits at his core strength in the primaries. Posted by: Jean at January 10, 2012 02:04 PM (WkuV6) +1

78 Greens Fees are a Right Wing Conspiracy!

79 I'm not anti-capitalist. I'm for COMPASSIONATE CORPORATISM !!!!!

80

"I like to fire people" is a hard sell at 16% unemployment, there are many Romney supporters who are only on his wagon based on his electability, this hits at his core strength in the primaries.
Posted by: Jean at January 10, 2012 02:04 PM (WkuV6)

"I like being able to fire people" is what he actually said. I watched no more than 10 seconds of the clip and I think I got the context - firing people for bad service. Maybe I needed to ruminate longer than 10 seconds, but so far nothing in this campaign has warranted more of my attention.

81 I'm Mitt Romney's hair and I approved this message.

82 Damn it. Romney is getting me to agree with DAVID FRUM!


"Until recently, Republicans used to cheerlead this very system as providing economic growth and innovation, at least until this week when they became shocked — shocked! — to find gambling in the capital casino. As the Gingrich super PAC uses casino money to proclaim that shock, perhaps another question should be asked of the Republicans joining the outrage. They have all pledged to reduce the size and scope of federal government. Perry, for instance, pledged to eliminate three entire Cabinet-level departments, and Gingrich has made the size of the federal budget a priority, too. Exactly how do they plan to accomplish those goals without cutting jobs — perhaps hundreds of thousands of them? If the arguments for downsizing the federal government are based on red ink, inefficiency, duplication, and waste, perhaps they should explain why those arguments work for the public sector but donÂ’t in the private sector."


DAVID FRUM DAMMIT! DAVID FRUM!

Is there anything Romney can't do?

83 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at January 10, 2012 02:11 PM (8y9MW) No I don't think it is only going to Republicans who are gonna spread that and I do think Romney can defend himself. And Romney is NOT my choice for the Republican Nomination. but that does not mean I have sit here watch trouble makers like that jean person spread the bullshit and then tell me it doesn't really smell all that bad.

84 For those of you getting the vapors over Romney's time at Bain and the "firing" comment, (which you should all stop truncating and pretending he was talking about firing workers at Bain or any of the companies they invested in) do you know if GM has fewer workers than it did prior to being bailed out?

85 UNLEASH THE ROMNEYBOTS!

86 Buying ammunition is becoming an OCD like behavior for some among us.

87 "I like to fire people" is a hard sell at 16% unemployment

You should try selling a Chevy Volt.

88 Trump 2012 :  You're Fired!

89 It's taken completely out of context but pay no never mind to that and continue to spread the bullshit It will be taken out of context, and flashed into the minds of every OH and PA voter for 6 months.

90 The only way to "defend" against a made-up attack (particularly one that is literally just a sentence fragment) is to point out the intellectual dishonesty of the attacker. Mitt should laugh in the face of any idiot who asks him to justify that one-third of half a remark. The only people who ask will be those who want anything BUT the truth. Ignore them
Or spit on them.

91
Wondering if Ted Kennedy's cremation fee covered the cost of the hazmat team?

92 Romney should swat these two dem operatives (Perry and Gingrich) away as he has the entire primary. Save the real defense of his time at Bain for the loser.......Obama.

93
/sock fail

94 Trump 2012 : You're Fired! Posted by: Donald Trump at January 10, 2012 02:15 PM (fOmkv) obama 2012: Bill Daley your fired!

95 What Romney did really was save or create jobs and I bet he has real numbers to back that up. The SCOAMF just made stuff up.

96 Wondering if Ted Kennedy's cremation fee covered the cost of the hazmat team?

He burned in a lovely color known as "Kennedy Blue".

97 Ummmmmm , ahhhhhhhhhhh, mmmmmmmmmm

98 so then Governor Scott in FL is a tax rasier by that definition since he rasied the fees of things like release of information requests

99 It's taken completely out of context but pay no never mind to that and continue to spread the bullshit It will be taken out of context, and flashed into the minds of every OH and PA voter for 6 months. Posted by: Jean at January 10, 2012 02:15 PM (WkuV6) It will be old news a week from now, but keep dreaming

100

Even liberals like Greg Sargent are telling people to chill...

Dems are jumping up and down this morning because, as Taegan Goddard puts it, they’ve “caught him on video saying he likes firing people.”

Let me go on record saying it would be misleading and unfair to clip the video in question in order to quote Romney this way: “I like being able to fire people.”

ThatÂ’s because Romney didnÂ’t really mean that, as video of his full quote shows:

“I want people to be able to own insurance if they wish to, and to buy it for themselves and perhaps keep it for the rest of their life, and to choose among different policies offered from companies across the nation. I want individuals to have their own insurance. That means the insurance company will have an incentive to keep you healthy.

“It also means if you don’t like what they do, you can fire them. I like being able to fire people who provide services to me. If someone doesn’t give me the good service I need, I’m going to go get somebody else to provide that service to me.”

 

Romney was saying he likes to have the option of replacing his health insurance if he judges it to be sub par.

 

 

101 I kinda like the name "Bain". Reminds me of McBain from the Simpsons.

102 We are cutting off our nose to spite our face. I for one, think we are truly doomed and that the emporer - naked or not - will win again. There are too many gullible, stupid people.

103 Obama 2012: the Not-Romney of the general election

104 Medusaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!

105 I'm starting to think Perry's track record may not be due to his keen business savvy. Newt is cementing his reputation as both a big government guy and an asshole. I didn't think anything could get me to like Romney, but these stupid cocksuckers are giving it a go.

106 There's nothing wrong with another company coming in and snapping up the assets at fire sale prices.

Yes there is. When a company gets spun off prior to bankruptcy, then all of it's assets looted prior to bankruptcy, all the other creditors and companies who were creditors get burned with a loss. Yes it is legal. No it is not moral. No it does nothing for the economy, for the gains made by the looter are just capital losses and lost investment elsewhere. Some other company can't expand or have the capital to do business so the looter can. The difference is the businesses actually suffering the worst losses actually delivered goods and/or services for which they will never be paid. 

107 Hey Ace.. listen to the Romney attack ads Newt's Super Pac has put out.. Rush has been playing them this morning.  Pitiful.. As Rush said.. the left could not have made them worse..

Shit like "When Romney came to town, the suffering began.."  sob stories from people who lost their jobs.. and this is from fucking Newt!

108 Looks like Romney is the lone conservative here, taking arrows from his liberal rivals. Americans love an underdog.

109 I didn't think anything could get me to like Romney, but these stupid cocksuckers are giving it a go.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at January 10, 2012 02:19 PM (+lsX1)

+1 agreed

110 It just amazes me that the anti-Romney crowd at AOSHQ is better at defending Romney from these stupid attacks than Mitt "Waaah, that's not fair!" Romney himself. Who the fuck are consuling these guys?

111 102 Hold up that's the complete quote? Using that as an attack is a complete lie, WTF?

112 I didn't think anything could get me to like Romney, but these stupid cocksuckers are giving it a go.
Posted by: Gristle Encased Head
........
Even Rush is defending Romney today! Un-freakin-believable!

113 So, what kind of acceptable candidates can Repubs hope for in the future once we rule out anybody who was a successful businessman?

1) Life-long "public service" parasites.

2) Rahm Emanuel/ Gingrich types. You start off in "public service" to make contacts, build a power base. And you take occasional breaks in "consulting". Get put on some lucrative wall street deals. A good way to get rich and build political power at the same time.

3) Career military guys. Problem here is these guys can't get rich while in the military. So it'll have to be guys from rich families who join the military. Not many of them. Hard to run a modern campaign without money.

4) Lawyers. finance guys. Basically, careers where you can get rich, but you don't run large organizations and have to ever fire people. And in partner-based organizations, authority is distributed, so you never get the full blame for anything bad.

So -- basically more of what we already have. Lots of lawyers, and lots of "public service" scum who milk the system.

Increasingly, the best way to get rich in America is to join the government. "Public service" my ass.

114 Romney was saying he likes to have the option of replacing his health insurance if he judges it to be sub par.

He just doesn't like people to have the option not to carry health insurance at all.

Which is so much better...

Seriously- I understand what he's saying.  Being able to fire people (either your actual employees, or a company providing a service) is part and parcel with Capitalism.

A better response (that doesn't make it seem like he's whining that "it's not fair!") might be, "I do like being able to fire people.  When we can't fire people, we get bank and auto bailouts; we get a European economy."

115 If there's a middle road to being able to attack Romney's record at Bain *without* attacking capitalism itself, this piece by Jonathan Last in The Weekly Standard gets it, I think (The Corner is talking about it): http://tinyurl.com/72eqm3q

116

Newt was interviewed by Megan Kelly this morning and he sounded like a progressive populist. He said the only time venture capitalists should bankrupt a failing company is after they lost a significant portion of their investment because it was unfair for them to do otherwise.

Newt might want to read a bit about risk reward. For a venture capitalist or a bank for that matter to continue to pour money into a losing company and then bankrupt it just so Newt thinks it's fair is insanity. It doesn't happen, it won't happen.

117 From 2006-2008, Jack Lew was chief operating officer of Citibank's alternative investments division. And it was his division that made billions of dollars betting "U.S. homeowners would not be able to make their mortgage payments," as the Huffington Post reported. The piece also reported: “Lew made millions at Citi, including a bonus of nearly $950,000 in 2009 just a few months after the bank received billions of dollars in a taxpayer rescue, according to disclosure forms filed with the federal government. The bank is still partly owned by taxpayers.”

118 Yeah.... I am a little more than uncomfortable watching the field leveling the same charges against one another that Debbie Wasserman-Schultz levels.

119 As a small business owner, these attacks by "Republicans" are simply infuriating. Politics or not. This is the kind kind of bullshit I am constantly in argument about with friends and acquaintances who don't know shit about how business works.

120 Oh and trust me. Obama's team is looking up every mom and pop company that got burned by Bain's loot then bankruptcy business model. Certainly some folded over it. It's going to be great come time for the general. A legitimate parade of victims harmed by the immoral activity of a company you were CEO of. 

121 Who the fuck are consuling these guys?

Posted by: mugiwara at January 10, 2012 02:20 PM (MScc1)

Mfmmf, fmmfm m fmmf.

122

Posted by: robtr at January 10, 2012 02:21 PM (MtwBb)

Newt's business career consisted of a book deal.

123 Yep never had a fee raised in Texas since Perry's been Governor. Or that's my takeaway. Besides they wouldn't need to since they used billions from the stimulus to balance the Texas budget. Again any attacks are fine in my book. Either you can defend them which makes your opponent look dishonest or you can't, which gives the voters necessary info to make a decision.

124

Time for a confession.

IÂ’ve had a lot of fun hammering on Rick Perry for being about as stupid as a person could be.  Some of it was over the top, but I believe it was a proportional response to Ace and others who relentlessly and unfairly hammered on Palin.

Now, I pray (in my atheist way) for the people of Texas.  I pray that PerryÂ’s attack on Mitt for being a capitalist is attributable to some smoke-filled backroom deal that will benefit him in some way.  I pray that Perry didnÂ’t just decide to toss out this criticism of Bain and Romney because he thought it was the smart political move to draw more voters to him. 

If that is the case, if Perry thought that what his campaign needed was to deride the very basis of conservatism and capitalism in order to win the hearts of republican primary voters, I wouldnÂ’t want this guy in charge of a bus stop, let alone a state or country.

Either way, letÂ’s thank God we found out in time to prevent a really embarrassing general election.

125
Mitt is running this ad against Obama now in NH.

It's pretty damn good, i think.

126 as I said earlier, own the evil. Romney should be all like yup, I'm going to fire Obama, Holder, Biden, Pelosi, that public sector union thug, etc.

127 NOt sure if this can wait for tomorrows DOOM thread but: There's a report that Hostess Brands, the maker of Wonder Bread and Twinkies, is preparing to refile for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection just two years after emerging. Save my Twinkies!

128 Nevermind Solyndra.

Obama shut down how many car dealerships???

Hey now, don't give the Republicans anything they can actually use to their advantage.  They might risk upsetting the coveted Independent vote apple cart.

129
What does it tell you that Mitt is running ads against Obama in early primary states?

130 Even Rush is defending Romney today! Un-freakin-believable!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at January 10, 2012 02:21 PM (f9c2L)

Rush is taking apart Newt's responses to Romney piece-by-piece.  Your correct, I've never heard Rush so vigorously defend any candidate.

131 Newt's business career consisted of a book deal. Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at January 10, 2012 02:23 PM (zlvkY) -------------------------------------------------------- Jack Black on crack. Noot is a tick and always has been. Hey Herr. Long time no see.

132 68 I've having Cain withdrawal.  I miss that black man.  ------------------------------- Me too!

133 DEVELOPING: A powerful earthquake has hit waters of western Indonesia, prompting local officials to issue a tsunami warning. The U.S. Geological survey said the quake had a preliminary magnitude of 7.3 and struck 260 miles off the coast of Aceh province. It was centered 18 miles beneath the ocean floor. Arief Akhir, an official with Indonesia's geological agency, said a tsunami warning has been issued. Indonesia is prone to seismic upheaval due to its location on the Pacific "Ring of Fire," an arc of volcanos and fault lines encircling the Pacific Basin. A giant quake off the country on Dec. 26, 2004, triggered a tsunami in the Indian Ocean that killed 230,000 people, half of them in Aceh.

134

I was through with you, Newt, back when you slammed Paul Ryan's budget roadmap as "right wing social engineering". 

Lotta stuff about Romney I don't like.  But successfully running a private equity firm like Bain doesn't deserve the outrageous criticisms you're throwing his way.

Screw you, Newt!  In a profoundly, remarkably bold way!

 

135
Rush believes Newt is no longer in the game for the win, but simply to be Perot and screw it up for Romney.  Amazing.

136 I've having Cain withdrawal. I miss that black man. ------------------------------- Me too! Posted by: Ginger White's Landlord at January 10, 2012 02:26 PM (jiwQf) Once ya go black, ya can't go back! Or so I have heard?

137 I can't stand much more of this crapola.  While on vacation I'm putting myself on a self-imposed news blackout.  Just football playoffs and martinis and more martinis.

138 Newt's business career consisted of a book deal.

I think I've seen him sell his principles several times over the years also.

139

Oh and trust me. Obama's team is looking up every mom and pop company that got burned by Bain's loot then bankruptcy business model

Let them.

And in the debates Romney can deadpan that there are 6 million fewer people working in America than when Obama was sworn in.

140 I pray that Perry didnÂ’t just decide to toss out this criticism of Bain and Romney because he thought it was the smart political move to draw more voters to him. I would ahhh . . . not waste any prayers on that. Cos that's exactly what just happened. Oh and you don't like it?!?! Well then I call you heartless! Good day sir!

141 Raising fees on gun ownership was one of those that Mitt raised.
Probably easy political calculus in MA, where the media tries to make you feel like a criminal for owning a gun, but a 2nd Amendment issue none the less.
I have no problems with the Bain stuff and if Mitt and his staff really have their shit together they shouldn't either.
If they allow themselves to be tripped up on what should be his strength, then his candidacy is truly worthless.

142 Newt saved the jobs of at least two people at a large company. One Tiffany saleswoman and one Tiffany bill collector.

143 Rush believes Newt is no longer in the game for the win, but simply to be Perot and screw it up for Romney. Oh please do go for it Newton. Can't WAIT to see the contents of the closets all around DC with yours and Candy's names on them!

144 Newt's business career consisted of a book deal. Hum that remind you of anyone else? A skinny black community organizer who now lives in DC?

145 There's a report that Hostess Brands, the maker of Wonder Bread and Twinkies, is preparing to refile for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection just two years after emerging.

Prompted by a 2% reduction in sales from the year previous.  If you can't take a 2% hit to your gross without going under, it's because you're a fuck-up.

146 Who is Ace's second choice?

147 So, am I to take it that the Republicans will not be able to respond to any Dem/Obama economic attacks by showing the folks destroyed by Obama policies?  There are things to shiver over with Romney but the Obama economic juggernaut is not one of them.  If you have a brain, you can hit back twice as hard. 

148 152 There's a report that Hostess Brands, the maker of Wonder Bread and Twinkies, is preparing to refile for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection just two years after emerging.

Prompted by a 2% reduction in sales from the year previous.  If you can't take a 2% hit to your gross without going under, it's because you're a fuck-up.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz


Herr,
If you had just bought one Snowball a week this wouldn't have happened!!!

149

So, what kind of acceptable candidates can Repubs hope for in the future once we rule out anybody who was a successful businessman?

Ones who quit chasing money and join a non-profit, like Michelle did to pull down a meager 300 grand in "community outreach" for a Chicago hospital. She's like Mother Teresa but with much better arms.

150 Who is Ace's second choice?

Team Meteor, I think.
That or Cthulhu.

151 Rush believes Newt is no longer in the game for the win, but simply to be Perot and screw it up for Romney.  Amazing
-----
Noot not Perot     Luap (POSSIBLE) Perot

152 >>>Restructuring really comes down to HR; firing and hiring the next group of people to run a company. Think of the worst company you've worked for. Think of what you would have changed if you had free reign. Usually that means firing the assholes who run the place. You know, I really just agree with you on the substance, mostly. But Romney has been taking cheap shots left and right. My point is not that these attacks are right. It's that they are deserved.

153
I think I've seen him sell his principles several times over the years also.

ouch

154 hostess wants another BK restructure to break a few more of the profit-sucking unions they are still contracted to. they only just came out of the last BK I'm not worried about them, I guess. I'd worry about the poor union workers that are gonna lose their representation, but then again, I'm still heartless.

155 144 I can't stand much more of this crapola.  While on vacation I'm putting myself on a self-imposed news blackout.  Just football playoffs and martinis and more martinis.

Sounds like a plan.  Withdraw from the horror for a while. 

156 Newt skinny?

157 142
Rush believes Newt is no longer in the game for the win, but simply to be Perot and screw it up for Romney.  Amazing.

Do you have a link to that?

What I'm reading is that Rush is "uncomfortable" with Newt's approach, but he acknowledges that it's being done against the back drop of what Mitt did to him (and others).  From Rush's website:

But anyway, the reason for bringing all this up, was this question I got from people, why is Romney so disliked?  And I think with all of this money that Romney has spent -- Romney hasn't, but his super PAC against Gingrich, it's a multimillion-dollar attack on Gingrich.  And I think, I could be wrong, but I think that may come back and haunt Romney because others have learned from him.  So people like Ron Paul now and a lot of the other candidates are now engaging in these scorched earth tactics because when Romney did it against Newt, it worked. 

I think it's unfortunate it's come to this.  I don't like seeing any of this transpire.  But this is why Giuliani doesn't support Romney.  It's why Fred Thompson hasn't come out for him.  It's because they don't like the super PAC spending all this money in scorched earth and they remember it's what Romney did in 2008.  Now, it's also fair to say, hey, this is politics, this is what happens and money is the way this is -- and that's all true, too.  I'm not condemning Romney, don't misunderstand. I'm just saying that you start this process, you demonstrate that it works, you're gonna cause copycats, and it's now starting to take place.  Several others who were dealt this way by Romney or Romney's PACs in 2008 are now starting to respond in kind.  The media keeps asking, for example, what's Newt's problem with these attacks?  I mean this is politics.  What the hell does he expect?  And these are not attacks.  Newt's engaged in self-defense.  Newt was wandering around minding his own business, he got hit, he got hit, and he got hit, finally some people have sent him enough money that he can retaliate now. 

It's not Newt that's doing the attacking.  It's Newt that's doing the defending.  And, you know, Romney took a chance, it helped him in Iowa, he was able to really cut Gingrich off at the knees in Iowa, and he showed the others that it's okay to slam away that way.  So they're now slamming away, everybody is slamming away at everybody on the Republican side.  It's just once it starts and once it's shown to be effective, then here come the copycats.  So Newt now is going after Romney on this Bain Capital business, and you might say that they're not defensive, but I don't know that Gingrich would be doing this had Romney not taken the steps he took in Iowa.  But Newt's out there saying, (paraphrasing) "This guy, he's not a conservative.  All he does is go in and take over companies and fire people, lays 'em off.  This isn't capitalism."  He's laying into Romney the way the Democrats are going to.  Bain Capital is going to be the Halliburton of 2012 if Romney does indeed get the nomination. 

Bain Capital is Romney's hedge fund investment firm, and they did, they went over, they bought companies and in not very many cases but in some they downsized, let some people go, which is what happens, you streamline. One of the reasons the company was for sale was it was in bad shape, you buy it, you have to streamline it, make it more efficient, and that involves laying people off.  Now, grab sound bite 34. Romney, you have to tell me if he stepped in it here. (interruption) No, I know, Newt's ad on Bain Capital looks like something the Democrat National Committee will put out, and just like I didn't like in 2000 when George W. Bush said he wasn't gonna balance the budget on the backs of the poor.  No!  He was talking about compassionate conservatism, using the language of the left. 

I know it's to get the moderates and the independents and so forth, and Newt is using the language of the left in going after Romney on Bain Capital. That makes me uncomfortable, too. That's what I mean: Once this stuff starts, Katie bar the door.

158 My second choice, at the moment, is Romney, actually, though I'm not firm at all on that. I just expect I will probably go to Romney. I'll lie back and think of England.

159 So I take it that I am now, by default, the Un-Romney?

160 But it was a fucked up way of saying it, we go off about Perry not being a master linguist but Romney has been stepping on his dick more times than I can count. His meltdown on Fox News is a classic indicator that the only reason this fuckhole seems like a better communicator is that he's never been vetted or backed into a corner till now.

Right. Someone intentionally taking a sentence fragment out of context is proof of poor communication skills. Good call.

161 Ace's second choice is "Scorched Earth" methinks

162

When a company gets spun off prior to bankruptcy, then all of it's assets looted prior to bankruptcy, all the other creditors and companies who were creditors get burned with a loss. Yes it is legal. No it is not moral.

How is that immoral?  No, seriously, how is it immoral to maximize the value of my company.  If the transactions are not done in an attempt to defraud creditors, then there is nothing morally wrong with it.  I have no duty to maximize the value of my vendors' companies. 

Now let me contradict myself.  I agree that there is something problematic with a company coming in and buying a troubled company with no intention or plan to pay the creditors prior to starting a full or partial liquidation.  It is entirely possible to legally purchase, sell assets and then wait the appropriate period before filing bankruptcy and screwing over all the creditors.  It might be legal but it scoots far closer to the line of fraud then I like. 

163 And it will be impossible to connect Obama to the evils of Wall Street despite both his Administration being full of them, the Corzine stuff, and the fact that his crony capitalist dollars went to them?

164 Herr Morgenholz, I bet the paper that paid for them to exit Ch11 was based on steady or increasing sales and cost cutting. The sales decline killed the deal.

165 ace specifically what are these cheap shots you keep talking about?

166 Whatever support Perry had from me has now vanished. Romney is the one because I am certain Santorum couldn't get elected dogcatcher.

167 My second choice, at the moment, is Romney

Mine, too.  I just can't decide who my first choice is.

168 164 144 I can't stand much more of this crapola.  While on vacation I'm putting myself on a self-imposed news blackout.  Just football playoffs and martinis and more martinis. Get your Tebow on girl! Nothin' wrong with it!

169 You know, I really just agree with you on the substance, mostly.

But Romney has been taking cheap shots left and right. My point is not that these attacks are right. It's that they are deserved.

Posted by: ace at January 10, 2012 02:30 PM (nj1bB)

They can attack Romney all they want, there is plenty there to attack. My problem is when they start doing it from the progressive populist point of view.

I have never heard this kind of crap coming from republicans before.

170
It's that they are deserved.

Maybe Romney "has it coming" to him. But not at our expense.
Republican presidential candidates trashing the free market system undermines more than just Romney.

171

It's not my fault that alexthechick likes me better than you.  She said I get to sleep indoors in Alextopia! 

 

If Alextopia comes to pass, I'll be working in the salt mines.

172 Nevertheless, if Romney is a cold, Obama is double pneumonia.

The people this class warfare stuff will play with is the people who were going to vote for Obama anyway. Bain doesn't hurt Romney in the General Election.

173 One thing though is that Romney always says he was a "businessman." Most people assume that means someone like Cain, who's actually producing a product. Like building a computer company up.

Bain I guess is producing a product, but it's an intangible one, "efficiency" or something.

This (above) from Ace and this (below) from Nasty Weather are right on the money.  I have some experience working for and under companies like Bain (including Forstmann Little, with whom Newt now has some ties).  Some of these guys, like the Forstmann brothers, were honest, give-a-shit, guys who wanted to make big money but were not prepared to leverage so ridiculously that the very survival of their buyout targets required a hellish workplace for their minions.  Others really don't give a shit about the employees or mid-level executives they are going to burn - these human beings are numbers on a spreadsheet to be bled on the possibility that it may result in a big score.  If Romney and Bain were the latter (I don't have enough info to judge at this point), then Mittens should be mocked every time he calls himself a "businessman".  I am all for Schumpeterian capitalism, but I don't want my President to be a guy who chose "executioner" as his career.

As a corporate "looter", Romney played by the rules.  He didn't do anything the founders of companies could not have done, rather than sell-out to Romney so he could do it.

But those people chose not to do those things.  Romney did.  The fact that what he did was legal - and even may have done some economic good - does not mean he is a model for national leadership.  Just as there are manufacturers of high quality widgets and low quality widgets.  There may well be a value to having low-quality widgets, but it does not mean you want to make that manufacturer a national ideal.

There are other people who play by the rules and build real solid enterprises - building high quality widgets.  Or a high-quality political record, even.  That takes time, patience, character, etc.  Maybe that's a better ideal for national leadership.

174

Do you have a link to that?

Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 02:31 PM (5H6zj)

Rush actually started talking about that last week.

 

175 Rush believes Newt is no longer in the game for the win, but simply to be Perot and screw it up for Romney.  Amazing.

Do you have a link to that?

Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 02:31 PM (5H6zj)

Rush made the comment in the 3rd hour between 14:20 - 14:33.

176

Let them.

And in the debates Romney can deadpan that there are 6 million fewer people working in America than when Obama was sworn in.

Not as effective as you might think. Obama is going to lead with "Romney is not about jobs, but about big business making big profits" and trust me just bringing up unemployment will not deflect that near as much as you think, cause right or wrong, a lot of people blame the behavior of the finance side of big business for being out of work.

It doesn't make it easy if Romney was a CEO directing one of the most unsavory business practices that is legal.

177 I actually agree with what Romney said, and I don't like these attacks against him, but face it, "I like to be able to fire people who provide me services." is a genuine political gaffe. He could have said "I think people should be held accountable," or "if people are giving you a bad insurance package, you should be able to choose another." or any other thing that made the same point. But he said something that makes him sound like an elitest entitled rich guy who tries to get the waitress fired when she forgets to put the lemon in his ice water. This perception of him as an entitled rich child who has inherited a political career along with his millions because his father had one is a political problem. That said, I would vote for him over Obama any day.

178

I'll lie back and think of New England.

chowdah!

179 but this is a stupid attack and makes me hate Perry even more. It's like his argument has the rong last name

180

Oh surely Romney deserves a pass for his activities at Bain and as governor of Massachusetts.   Anybody probing into that stuff must be a marxist or otherwise a hater of capitalism.

There can't really be naughty capitalists, can there be?  Even George Soros and Goldman Sachs are innocent of that.  If they use their billions to bankrupt others, or transfer the remaining wealth of struggling businesses into their own pockets because they can, one can't really argue against that, can one?

181

He could, actually.  That would be fairly smooth.  Instead, he and his supporters have chosen to go with, "You can't say that!" America-hating capitalism-destroying terrorist!

FIFY.

182 I bet the paper that paid for them to exit Ch11 was based on steady or increasing sales and cost cutting. The sales decline killed the deal.

Could be.  What they really need is a Bain Capital type company to come in and scoop their asses up and do what needs to be done turn them around.  That means shit-canning the dead weight, modernizing production and distribution, and then selling it for a bundle and running for President.

183 But Romney has been taking cheap shots left and right. My point is not that these attacks are right. It's that they are deserved.

If he deserves to be attacked, attack him in a smart way.  It's just stupid to "attack" Romney in a way that will hurt them if they become the nominee. 
Go after him for RomneyCare.  That's the smarter option for Perry.  That's a real weakness and a real flaw.  But why would Perry attack Romney for firing people when that is exactly what Perry wants to do? 
That's what you want to happen too, isn't it ace?

184 Maybe Romney "has it coming" to him. But not at our expense.
Republican presidential candidates trashing the free market system undermines more than just Romney.

Posted by: soothie at January 10, 2012 02:33 PM (sqkOB)

+1

Mitt was wrong to do the social security lefty talking points w/ Perry and yes there is a bit of karma but we're talking about trashing free enterprise here, to see some folks getting behind these line of attacks makes me wonder if this no Mitt in the primary attitude is bordering on derangment

185 Posted by: Entropy at January 10, 2012 02:35 PM (Ci0JG)

Yeah.  More accurate, there.

186 The "Bain" attack is quite clever. I worked for a company that bought struggling cabinet and furniture makers. We went in and tried to save them by cutting out dead wood, streamlining process and instituting Best Practice. Sometimes it didn't work...but if we hadn't tried they would have failed anyway! That's _why_ they were so cheap as to warrant the _gamble_ that they could be fixed.

The idea that you buy a company, load it with debt, extract your purchase fee plus more and then let the company BK is not real. In bankruptcy proceedings the court can call back any monies removed if they think it is a ploy to protect those monies.

187 crustyoldmysterysockOFF

188 All Mittens had to do was NOT be so damn straight-laced for once - say it like Christie would have: "Yeah I *like* firing people WHO SUCK" no more misunderstandings and we can all get behind that!

189
yeah, funny thing about "big business making big profits" though.

Big Business = Lots of employees

Big Profits = Job security

Hard not to like, ya?

190 makes me wonder if this no Mitt in the primary attitude is bordering on derangment you're just starting to notice this!??!?

191

If Alextopia comes to pass, I'll be working in the salt mines.

Posted by: garrett at January 10, 2012 02:33 PM (fOmkv)

Oh my stars and garters, it's as if you think I am a petty petty person who holds a grudge!

Oh.  Wait.

 

192 I'll lie back and think of England Zooey Deschanel.

Fixed for accuracy.

193 But Romney has been taking cheap shots left and right. My point is not that these attacks are right. It's that they are deserved. Posted by: ace

Little Bill: I don't deserve this... to die like this. I was building a house.
Munny: Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

194 you're just starting to notice this!??!?

Posted by: BlackOrchidHeartlessAgain at January 10, 2012 02:38 PM (SB0V2)

well ive seen some deranged pro-Mitt folks being incredible pricks so it goes both ways

195
all I know is that the OdipO campaign made the assumption it was gonna be the Rombot and started the "hate the rich" campaign more than a year ago directly for the purpose of this election.  they have been pounding that day in and day out so that their attacks will resonate once the "real" campaign starts.

196 Wow.....Perry and Gingrich ought to just make it official and switch over to the democrat party. The desperation coming from their failing campaigns is palpable.

Just like Romney should have switched to D when he attacked Perry over Social Insecurity.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

197 Hard not to like, ya?

Not if you're not one of those "lots of employees" with "job security."

Envy ain't pretty, but it's real.

Seriously- as others have pointed out- there were other ways to make the same point that would have been as (or maybe even more) effective without handing his opponents a sound bite of "I like to be able to fire people..."

How about "Competition is good for consumers, but what competition means is the ability to stop doing business with one company, and start doing business with another?"

198

"Whatever support Perry had from me has now vanished. "

Well Dave, you were against Perry from the get go. I'll forward your concerns to his campaign.

 

199
Last week when Newt began to implode I asked if he would eventually support Mitt if he wins the nomination.

What do you think now? Newt will be the biggest shitbird in the GOP if he doesn't. But if Newt does endorse Mitt, it will ring hollow.

Thanks a lot, Newt, you shitbird.

200 they have been pounding that day in and day out so that their attacks will resonate once the "real" campaign starts. Alternatively, everyone will be utterly sick of them by then. Because people already ARE sick of this shit. Things suck; spite and avarice ain't going to make it better

201 DrewM is on fire on Twitter providing a lot of very damning links.  (DrewMTips) 

I wish I knew an easy way to cut and paste them, but I keep getting spammer errors.

202 The idea that you buy a company, load it with debt, extract your purchase fee plus more and then let the company BK is not real. In bankruptcy proceedings the court can call back any monies removed if they think it is a ploy to protect those monies.

You can extract assets. Anything of value that doesn't have some sort of title deed in the companies name. A bankruptcy court is not going to track down every piece of loose property a company owned.

203 Mine, too.  I just can't decide who my first choice is.

Werd.  Mitt is kinda like the so-so frumpy debate team chick you have lined up for the prom.  

When what you you really want is one of the smokin hot cheerleaders you see from the stands on Friday night.   She would cure all that ails ya.

Two weeks out.... you ask Ms Frump to the dance cause you got no other choice.

204

I have never heard this kind of crap coming from republicans before.

Must not be very familiar with Mitt Romney then.

205 The guy is carpet-bombing and napalming everyone he considers a threat.

With one conspicuous, SCOAMF-y exception.

206 Well Dave, you were against Perry from the get go. I'll forward your concerns to his campaign. Wait you mean Rick Perry actually has a campaign office and everything? Huh.

207

I decided this morning, I'm all for the smoke-filled rooms. Screw these "democratic" primaries and caucuses. Do they do anything to improve the quality of candidates? Do they improve the chances of winning? My answer: No. The advantages of smoke-filled room:

1. Ends the circular firing squad. [candidates vetted in private]

2. Allows a party to choose its candidate rather than whoever goes to meetings in Iowa or a bunch of Dems and Indys in NH.

3. Doesn't waste millions of dollars buying ammo for the ciruclar firing squad. Maybe it could be spent defeating the other party's candidate rather than pissed away. Or better yet, spent on House and Senate races or in state races.

Maybe it gets us more McCains and Doles. But isn't that what we are getting anyway?

 

 

208 36 Chris Wallace nailed Debbie Wasserman-Schultz yesterday asking what the difference between layoffs at companies Romney invested in through Bain and layoffs at Solyndra.
Answer:  About half a billion of taxpayers money

209 If they use their billions to bankrupt others, or transfer the remaining wealth of struggling businesses into their own pockets because they can, one can't really argue against that, can one?

Posted by: proreason at January 10, 2012 02:35 PM (gbQEv)

How is the bedbug situation over there at the #OccupyBain poetry slam and rape-in?

210 chemjeff, from the back of a buick in an applebees parking lot

211 Bain I guess is producing a product, but it's an intangible one, "efficiency" or something.

Posted by: ace at January 10, 2012 02:00 PM (nj1bB)

ace,

The product is liquidity. Bain and its ilk inject money into the system at points where they have identified inefficiencies; such as a company that is worth more in pieces than as a whole.

212
Not if you're not one of those "lots of employees" with "job security."

I disagree. Unemployed people want to see companies thrive because it means opportunities will come. No one benefits from companies failing.

213 Mine, too.  I just can't decide who my first choice is.

Heh.

214 but I keep getting spammer errors.

Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 02:41 PM (5H6zj)

Well, if pixy says you're a spammer....

Probably as bad as the cat woman :LOL:

215 I wish I knew an easy way to cut and paste them, but I keep getting spammer errors. Posted by: Y-not

On Windows, copy the twit, open Notepad, paste the twit on Notepad, re-copy twit from Notepad. Go to AoSHQ, paste twit in comment box. It should be stripped of the URLs.

On a Mac, you can go fuck yourself.

216

Wake up, sheeple.  Mitt Romney didn't close all those businesses because he was interested in solvency.  He closed them because he was interested in making money, and even got you stupid taxpayers to pick up the tab for the retirement plans these companies had.

Romney's crime is not shutting down failing companies.  His crime is getting you, the taxpayer, to pick up the tab.

217
Newt was interviewed by Megan Kelly this morning and he sounded like a progressive populist.

My friends, there are two Americas...

218 There are so many things to attack Romney on. This Bain line of attack is just dumb and reeks of desperation. Even if Romney is hurt by this, I don't think the attackers will gain anything. Instead it'll be the ones that haven't piled on (Santorum, Luap Nor).

219 How about "Competition is good for consumers, but what competition means is the ability to stop doing business with one company, and start doing business with another?"

I'm a middle-man.  On big orders, I will pit 3 or 4 manufacturers against each other to get A) the best price for my customer and B) the highest profit margin for me.  What the anti-business types hate is that that kind of fierce competition means that there are losers in every single deal.  As anybody who has coached a young kids' soccer team knows, that goes against the zeitgeist.

220 OT:  Just got an email, Fuckabee endorses Dewhurst for the KBH senate seat.

221 112 It just amazes me that the anti-Romney crowd at AOSHQ is better at defending Romney from these stupid attacks than Mitt "Waaah, that's not fair!" Romney himself. Who the fuck are consuling these guys?

Posted by: mugiwara at January 10, 2012 02:20 PM (MScc1)

They were better at defending Perry, too, and as a result Perry was widely considered incompetent for not doing better. Will those that criticized Perry for that reason apply the same standard to Romney, I wonder?

222 215 Mine, too.  I just can't decide who my first choice is.

Werd.  Mitt is kinda like the so-so frumpy debate team chick you have lined up for the prom. 
---
If Mitt is the debate team chick why the F* isn't he kicking ass in the debates ??
Luap did a better job of defending Mitt than Mitt did. What does that make him ??

223

Would "naughty capitalism" involve the buying and selling of bull whips and fur-lined handcuffs in a free and open marketplace?

Newsletter, por favor. 

224 Barack Hussein Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

225 OK, it looks like we're getting nowhere with this. 

226 Even when I was in England I didn't like thinking of England.

_{And besides laying back isn't really a good "go to" move, even as a fallback.}

227 ...oh you have a choice...you're just too chicken to ask her..........so that's why you get the frump....it's your fault.............

228 Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at January 10, 2012 02:46 PM (zlvkY)

So are you agreeing with me?  Not clear from you quote...

229

What the anti-business types hate is that that kind of fierce competition means that there are losers in every single deal. 

Yup.  There are far too many people out there who believe that the purpose of a company is to provide a job and benefits to employees rather than to make money. 

That does remind me of that old joke about the astronauts sitting there getting ready to blast off and one looks at the other and says "Isn't it great to know we're sitting on top of a rocket that was built by the lowest bidder?"

230

Haiku maybe?

 

231 $700 million in fees is doable. Perry raised $2.7 billion using fees in 2003. As I write this, the Texas legislature is debating how to address their $20billionish deficit, and you can bet raising fees for everything from parking tickets to fishing licenses to vehicle registration will be part of it. A previous $30 fee on speeding tickets alone netted almost three hundred million in new revenue. I'm sure Perry would be taking heat for these shadow tax increases were he still the front runner, but there isn't much point beating a dead horse.

232 So are you agreeing with me?  Not clear from you quote...

You want clarity?!?  YOU CAN'T HANDLE CLARITY!!!1!!!

233 Maybe we need an all-positives thread again.  Or something.  I'm at a loss as to how to get us out of this spiral. 

234 Yeah, I think it's high time for these assholes to start telling me how they're going to run this country and bring it back to it's true greatness than tearing each other down.

We all know they all suck, but I want to know what they're going to do if they get my vote and actually win.  I'm more interested in that now.

235 I'm at a loss as to how to get us out of this spiral.

Have Tebow throw us.

236 >>On a Mac, you can go fuck yourself.

linky?

237 I like puppies.

238 As I write this, the Texas legislature is debating how to address their $20billionish deficit, and you can bet raising fees for everything from parking tickets to fishing licenses to vehicle registration will be part of it.

Hmm... that's funny.  Since the Texas legislature isn't in session- and won't be until the beginning of 2013.

239 Haiku maybe?


We Fire, Ready, Aim

In a Circle, Face to Face

No Dates for the Prom

240 $700 million in fees is doable. Perry raised $2.7 billion using fees in 2003. As I write this, the Texas legislature is debating how to address their $20billionish deficit, and you can bet raising fees for everything from parking tickets to fishing licenses to vehicle registration will be part of it. A previous $30 fee on speeding tickets alone netted almost three hundred million in new revenue. I'm sure Perry would be taking heat for these shadow tax increases were he still the front runner, but there isn't much point beating a dead horse. Posted by: Jordan at January 10, 2012 02:49 PM (RSG1I) Wasn't the budget debate in Texas last year over whether the state should use the rainy day fund in order to fill the deficit?

241
Meanwhile...

Obama is shredding the Constitution and getting away with it.

Pretty sad that Bain is even an issue.

242 There are far too many people out there who believe that the purpose of a company is to provide a job and benefits to employees rather than to make money.

+15.5 Trillion and 7 of these things: &&&&&&&

GM was a health insurance provider that also happened to lose money on every single fucking passenger car they produced.  They made a little on trucks and SUVs, so the gubmint went after the trucks and SUVs, sent them into bankruptcy, and bought them up at the point of a gun for the sole purpose of turning them into a fucking social program.

Really.  "Bain Capital" is an issue?

243
As many people have probably said by now, its not Bain Capital that is Rombot's problem, its his continued cheerleading for the State Socialist Healthcare program known as Romneycare, the father of Obamacare.

244 >>I'm at a loss as to how to get us out of this spiral. 
Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 02:50 PM (5H6zj)

That's a Tebow specialty.

Think Timmeh

_{Seriously, like no spiral}

245 Jordan vs AllenG in the main ring

246 Hmm... that's funny.  Since the Texas legislature isn't in session- and won't be until the beginning of 2013.

Shh.  He's rolling.

247 MENDOZA!!!

248
As I write this, the Texas legislature is debating how to address their $20billionish deficit

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) says 'No' to RINO Romney at January 10, 2012 02:52 PM (8y9MW)

During a recent mom visit, I proudly contributed to the State of Texas illegal alien fund by crossing a median to the tune of $167.  Don't mind the ticket, but the $4 Internet processing fee irritated me enough to email an index finger along with the payment.

249 OT: Just got an email, Fuckabee endorses Dewhurst for the KBH senate seat. Posted by: Bob Saget at January 10, 2012 02:46 PM (SDkq3) Cruz may be a great candidate but he hasn't gained any traction at this point. The only real alternative would be Leppert right now.

250 Wasn't the budget debate in Texas last year over whether the state should use the rainy day fund in order to fill the deficit?

Yes.  It was.  Rick and the House didn't want to use any of the Rainy day fund, the Dems didn't want any cuts, and the Senate wanted a middle road (that still used most of the Rainy day fund).

In the end, we got the first real budget cuts in a couple of decades, no new taxes (though some increased fees, so YMMV), and we used around half (or less? can't remember the exact number) of the Rainy day fund.

251 >>>I have never heard this kind of crap coming from republicans before. I have. I heard Romney, for example, claiming that Perry's calling SS a "ponzi scheme" (it is) meant he wanted to "end" SS.

252 Meanwhile...Obama is shredding the Constitution and getting away with it. You didn't hear that from us. Cool, isn't it! More primaries, more debates, coming up!

253
Who let the cellar door open?

254 Herr Morgenholz, I was in a similar role for a small book distributor called Databooks back in the Nineties. We'd find all sorts of ridiculously obscure industrial annuals, massive directories for industries I'd never even heard of, etc. One of my biggest accounts was Bain Capital. If a business book hit the top 10 list I could count on an order for a case or two within a few days. Easiest client ever.

255

Romney's crime is not shutting down failing companies.  His crime is getting you, the taxpayer, to pick up the tab.

Posted by: zane at January 10, 2012 02:45 PM (XOOfM)

So, can we then assume that you don't take all of the tax exemptions to which you are entitled?  You do?  You criminal.

256 and we used around half (or less? can't remember the exact number) of the Rainy day fund.

Well if it was cash money savings, you should probably spend it before it is worthless.

257 Just read Y-not's comment at #250. So did I miss anything - do I actually have to like, you know, read the comments and stuff? Is it OK to say I want Perry, but will vote for anyone besides the evil clown in the White House? Or are we at the indiscriminate chaos stage. Just wondering....

258
I heard Romney, for example, claiming that Perry's calling SS a "ponzi scheme" (it is) meant he wanted to "end" SS.

Well of course. Romney had to say that for the benefit of the old coots in FL.

259

What the anti-business types hate is that that kind of fierce competition means that there are losers in every single deal.

Actually one of the most fundamental concepts of capitalism is the mutual benefit of every single deal, since it's all suppose to be voluntary. That is the 'double thank you'. Each party percieves the deal in their best interest and everyone wins.

If there had to be a loser in every deal, then the economy really would be zero-sum and the redistributionists would be right.

260 You're arguing with a fucking liar.

I know.  It's just nice to be able to point out to liars that there are actually people who can call them out.

261

ace at January 10, 2012 02:56 PM

Weren't there ad's in Florida by Romney or a PAC of his stating that Perry would end Social Security the day he was inaugurated if he won the election? Said ads showing up within 3 days of the debate where the "ponzi Scheme" quote came up?  The Romneybots here said that "It was just politics, deal with it".

I guess Mitt is above "it just being politics". He's on a pedestal with some of his fans.

 

 

262 I would think Romney could turn this into a teaching moment if used wisely. Inefficiency causes death to a company , misuse of funds allocated to dead weight that doesn't make a sector of the business responsive to its own growth. As with gvt. appropriating funds to systems that doesn't actually do anything , just kills the people in taxes, duplicating systems that might be a function of another section of gvt, and un-needful , get rid of the deadweight . All sections of gvt should be under the hacking block to make it function more efficiently .

263 252 Haiku maybe?

We Fire, Ready, Aim

In a Circle, Face to Face

No Dates for the Prom
----
CANDIDATE Haiku

Keynsians print prodigally

Paki's need no cash

Quietly blame Joos

264
That's why Newt is so upset, I believe.
Because he lost his huge lead in FL.

I think Newt was hoping for FL to be his big win that would propel him towards the nom.

265 I'm at a loss as to how to get us out of this spiral.

Have Tebow throw us.

Posted by: Waterhouse at January 10, 2012 02:51 PM (FUYSU)

I love Tebow but that right there is hilarious. 

266
Romney had to say that for the benefit of the old coots in FL.

Posted by: soothie at January 10, 2012 02:58 PM (sqkOB)

Ugh soothie, we prefer the term well-heeled geezers or white hairs.

267 Let me be clear: I'd like to thank Mr. Gingrich for providing my campaign with attack ad material. As a gesture of my thanks, I will send Mr. Gringrich a CD of photos from my second Inaugural ball.

268 So, can we then assume that you don't take all of the tax exemptions to which you are entitled?  You do?  You criminal.

No I don't, I don't consider at least some of them to be moral. Believe it or not, there are some business practices that, while legal, are not ethical. I don't know the specifics of all of Bains activities, but looting then bankrupting companies is high on my list of "legal but not ethical" business practices.

269 Since the Texas legislature isn't in session- and won't be until the beginning of 2013. Hmm, that means I can appoint a new governor...

270
One of my biggest accounts was Bain Capital. If a business book hit the top 10 list I could count on an order for a case or two within a few days. Easiest client ever.

I.  MUST.  HAVE.  DATA.

271

It's better to get all this crap out now about Bain Capital, than to wait and let the Dems do it, in the general.

If the media hadn't been giving Romney a pass on this, then they would have been the ones to bring it up.......instead of the other candidates who have been getting the full colonoscopy treatment. .....It's time for Mitt to see how hot it gets in the kitchen.

 

 

272
white hairs?

you mean blue hairs

273 perhaps explain it as what families do all over america and elsewhere do when money is Tight, we clean house and slim down. as a necessity

274
or...

Q-tips

because that's what they look like from behind.

275

And I'm sure Obama's campaign won't run his speech where he congratulated Romneycare being the model for Obamacare.

 

276 white hairs?

you mean blue hairs

Posted by: soothie at January 10, 2012 03:00 PM (sqkOB)

Blue hairs are little old ladies trolling for action.

277 278
That's why Newt is so upset, I believe.
Because he lost his huge lead in FL.

I think Newt was hoping for FL to be his big win that would propel him towards the nom.

Krauthammer is obviously an AOSHQ reader.  He had a great quote about Gingrich, and how his motivation is now to hurt Romney, since the nomination is out of his reach.  He describes Romney as his white whale, and Gingrich as Ahab.  Good stuff.

278

>> Yep never had a fee raised in Texas since Perry's been Governor. Or that's my takeaway. Besides they wouldn't need to since they used billions from the stimulus to balance the Texas budget.

Actually the Franchise Tax was a new one in the last budget.

We also balanced the budget by cutting spending.  A shitload of it.  Second budget in a row with net reduced actual spending.

It would have been irresponsible to refuse stimulus money standing on "principle".  Those funds came from you and me and a bunch of other taxpayers in Texas just like Ohio and Florida and everywhere else.

What was responsible was to refuse to accept federal dollars that required long term commitments, such as hiring unionized public sector workers. And he did refuse those.

279 Well of course. Romney had to say that for the benefit of the old coots in FL.

Posted by: soothie at January 10, 2012 02:58 PM (sqkOB)

Just like Paul Ryan's plan was to push old people off the cliff and recycle the wheel chair.

It's a sad day when politics becomes worse than the tabloids.

280 fuck

281 >>Or are we at the indiscriminate chaos stage. Just wondering....

I think we're still in chaos. 

I've lost interest in critiquing how the candidates - and their surrogates - are conducting their campaigns.  I can't influence it and it doesn't change their core qualifications/merits for the job they're seeking. 

I think it would be good if we started talking about what the GOP Platform we're planning on running on is likely to be or something like that. 

282 If there had to be a loser in every deal, then the economy really would be zero-sum and the redistributionists would be right.

Good point.  Except that when you reject a quote from a manufacturer now, your contact calls you up and whines like a little shit that just lost his soccer game 17-3.

Because it's the same little shit that never kept score. 

Really?  You didn't make the sale?  Well I did, and with your competitor's product.  Don't bitch at me and get better at your job.  Just drives me fucking nuts.

283
I toyed with the idea of becoming a gigolo for an old retiree in FL.

But I don't think I could ever find one that would want me.

284 The Poor^TM  Diverse^TM People Occupy^TM

Eat The Rich

<< TOTUS malfunction, SCFOAMF can't finish haiku >>

285 Hell, let's go back to the stealing dos crack.  He saw value in it that those who owned it didn't.  He had the vision to leverage it into something else.  Whining that he got it for far less than value is just that.  Whining. Capitalist boner: ACTIVE

286 The only real alternative would be Leppert right now.

NOOOOOOoooooo!!!

287 That sets an ominous tone.

Holy cow.

288 perhaps explain it as what families do all over america and elsewhere do when money is Tight, we clean house and slim down stop paying our mortgage so we can keep eating at Cheesecake Factory twice a week and load up our credit cards with another vacation. 'Cause you can't MAKE us pay.

289
...Romney as his white whale, and Gingrich as Ahab

heh

290

Now MSNBC has David Corn and Cornell Fucking West quoting Rick Perry and Newt on the evils of capitalism.

Nice job, boys.

291 If Mitt can't defend his Bain history in a series of funkin' Republican primaries, he sure as hell won't do so adequately in the general.  Either he hits this out of the park, or he deserves to go down in flames.  And when he flames out, Newt can say, "You know, I really didn't think it was a fair attack on Mitt.  But I'm the kind of person (and will be the kind of President) who hits back hard and wins the fight quickly and decisively when someone attacks without provocation."

To be fair, here is my honest prediction of what Newt will say:  "You know, I don't actually think the series of advertisements run by my SuperPac represented a fundamentally fair line of attack on Governor Romney and his experience at Bain Capital.  But at this truly extraordinary period in American, and even world, history, the American people deserve the kind of leader who will not follow the tradition of the British Redcoats marching single file as the original New England patriots shot at them with muskets from behind trees, but rather they deserve a leader who will take his cue from the movie character, portrayed winningly by Robert Redford if I remember correctly, confusing his opponent by engaging him in a discussion of the rules in a knife fight, only to begin the fight with a surprise sucker punch, ultimately allowing him to win what could have been a seriously lopsided battle through the expedient of combining quick wit with massive force.  When an enemy attacks without provocation it is vitally important to strike back quickly and decisively in order not only to win the fight but also to end the fight promptly and with the barest minimum of casualties.  Calista and I made a movie . . . "

292 I thought Meghan McCain was the white whale ...

293

Now MSNBC has David Corn and Cornell Fucking West quoting Rick Perry and Newt on the evils of capitalism.

Nice job, boys.

It was either now or later. You Mittens supporters ought to be thankful its now. So its old news later.

294 ...There is no guarantee that if the economy and our debt collapses us that the pubilc is all of a sudden going to wake up to freedom. Instead they will probably want full blown socialism and then we will be in big trouble.

Precisely. They will want their security blankey more than ever.

295 So, can we then assume that you don't take all of the tax exemptions to which you are entitled?  You do?  You criminal.

No I don't, I don't consider at least some of them to be moral.

Immoral tax exemptions? You've got to be kidding. Do you have an example of a tax exemption that you are entitled to but refuse to take due to this preening morality?

296 I thought Meghan McCain was the white whale ...

A hump like a snow hill? hmmmm I can see where you are going.

297 Does it matter if the clip is out of context for ads to democrats? It doesnt. And most americans wont look up the facts and the media wont report it

298 Immoral tax exemptions? You've got to be kidding. Do you have an example of a tax exemption that you are entitled to but refuse to take due to this preening morality?

Charitable deduction.

299 There was a year I was eligible for EITC and didn't take it too. Not to mention the 6mo of unemployment I didn't take.

300 All tax exemptions are moral.

As are accepting unrecorded cash, keeping a separate ledger, and bribing the IRS auditor.  It's TAXES, people!

301 There was a year I was eligible for EITC and didn't take it too. Not to mention the 6mo of unemployment I didn't take.

I once rolled a drunk Congressman for beer money and a bag of weed.

302 If Mitt can't defend his Bain history in a series of funkin' Republican primaries, he sure as hell won't do so adequately in the general.
--------------
Exactly, his campaign hasnt said anything but anti capitalism, which will do shit. He has to stop the bleeding himself. 2012 is about Obamacare and Jobs mostly. Mitt wont be able to run on either. If he gets out as nominee he'll be weak as hell in the general election. Lets hope he gets stomped in the south with this shit and his flip flopping record. I see Newt put a lot of fee for Gun owners in that ad.

303 #292 I was being sarcastic at Perry's expense regard to Newts attack Lots of fees have been increased in Texas and other states as well. Cost of doing business goes up just like in the private sector.

304 Bottom line:
Mitt Romney is the Presidential Candidate who shut down the steel mill.
Obama is going to be the candidate who will promise to bring manufacturing jobs back to America (just like every Dem has since they signed and passed NAFTA).

Odd that some of us are accused of being OWS supporters for pointing out that Obama is going to win that exchange hands down. And that maybe it's not such a good idea to own-goal ourselves this time.

305 Charitable deduction.

Ha! You're a rube.

306 Stoddard is nuts-- this isn't going to hurt Romney appreciably-- he's got it sewed up and that "I like to fire people..." line was just a flub that he wished he could have taken back as soon as he said it-- frikkin' Newt... what a dick... "scorched earth" ass****-- at least he's not jockying for a position in the Romney Admin.-- Romney was "looting" companies?  Really?  thanks for the defense of capitalism and it's nice to see you've never partaken of the pie!

307 Mitt Romney is the Presidential Candidate who shut down the steel mill.

In the face of 35% corporate taxes, regulators crawling up his ass, government supported unions using the police state to raid his coffers, and a billion Chinese being given free reign to compete.

308 Jimmuy it's not that you think Obama would win this debate it's that you want him to win this debate. Own it.

309 "Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands." - Judge Learned Hand But I guess you can't put too high a price on a feeling of moral superiority, if that's your thing. I'd prefer to roll those savings into strippers and bacon.

310 Strippers and bacon in a tax-free enterprise zone.  More bang for your buck, Jeff.

311 Most of the times I've had news/talk radio on today the hosts (Miller, Rush, Sean Hannity now) has been at least a little bit defending Romney. Here's a question: do radio talkers effect voters directly on election days? Did Romney get a few points bounce from it? I know it's unanswerable, but I wonder.

312

Worth a watch. I'm not really happy to see Romney mugged, but then I wasn't happy when he mugged Perry, and I wasn't even happy when he mugged Gingrich.

Yeah, we can tell how unhappy you are about it.  You sound really upset.  Will Newt and Ricky Perry ever recover from how you just ripped into them for going all OWS GOP?

 

The net effect of all this, of course, is to make Santorum more likely to get the nod.  I don't really care, since I don't see him as noticeably more flawed than the other candidates.  But its an odd position for a pro-Lawrence, Get Your Christianity Off My Body blog to be taking.

313 One thing though is that Romney always says he was a "businessman." Most people assume that means someone like Cain, who's actually producing a product. Like building a computer company up.

Bain I guess is producing a product, but it's an intangible one, "efficiency" or something.

Posted by: ace

Re-organizing companies so they don't go bankrupt isn't business anymore.

Smart military blog.  One out of three aint' bad.

Seriously, grow up.  Romney is a bad Republican.  Doesn't mean that you have to shill and spin for every attack on his family or his work in the private sector or even the Olympics, as meaningless as that specific accomplishment is.

 

314 FFS, how many times does it need to be said. Those of us sickened by this Newt/ Perry/ Huntsman line of attack aren't concerned with what Romney does or doesn't deserve as political payback, or how this hurts Romney specifically. I'm not outraged on Romney's behalf, but on my behalf, on our behalf as fiscal conservatives.

In the year of the MSM apotheosis of the OWS movement, under the reign of Obama, and heading into the 2012 election, we have the GOP field-- the ostensible standard-bearers of right-wing ideology, of conservatism-- echoing & thereby legitimating the Obama/ OWS narrative, analysis, caricature of economic reality-- the Obama/ OWS picture of who the bad guys are, who's to blame for economic devastation. The left can now say: You see, America, even extreme right-wingers agree: those evil venture capitalist pigs, vultures, looters are to blame for your suffering. That's where, that's why, jobs are lost, destroyed: by corporations that ruthlessly fire people, of course. It's practically tautological. Naturally, this is the opposite of saving jobs-- which is what Obama does! Obama's a job saver, corporations like Bain are job destroyers. QED. And of course such predatory practices serve to justify more government regulation--e.g. through the NLRB.

If your defense of Newt's tactic is that, like it or not, lots of economically ignorant people (will) buy this tripe, so it's best to get this out now, so we can be prepared, hone our strategy, be better armed when the attack comes from O & MSMÂ… well, fuck, it's going to be 1000X harder to educate & persuade people, 1000X harder to refute Obama's argument & counteract the OWS talking-points, now that the supposed standard-bearers of our side have legitimated those very memes. This is worse than Newt's "right-wing social engineering."

Whether or not Romney is the nominee, no matter who the nominee is, Newt (& Perry & Huntsman, idiots for following him) have supplied the enemy with a big cache of ammo & armor. I want to spit.

315 "Hmm... that's funny. Since the Texas legislature isn't in session- and won't be until the beginning of 2013." D'oh! You are indeed correct. It was *last year* that the legislature instituted all those new fees. I was reading the 2011 budget. Now if only I could stop writing 2011 on my checks...

316 It used to, but by "own" I think we mean "was a significant investor." I'm not sure. But I'm guessing Bain was just a venture capitalist investor there, and did not really own it the way a sole proprietor owns something. Owned a share.

Posted by: ace

And even more stupidity. As has been widely reported ad nauseam, Bain had a significant role in running Staples to get it off the ground.  Remember that Bain started out as a consulting firm and branched out into private equity as a way of monetizing some of their expertise.  Bain wasn't just some guy who bought a share of a company.  Jesus Christ, one share?  Where's the real Ace who didn't think like a gerbil?

317

52 I do not think it is inconsistent to both defend capitalism and knock Romney. 

FIFY.  Wouldn't want to confuse your new OWS friends with sentences that have more than four words in them.

 

318 And if this ends up making Santorum our nominee? I doubt it will, but if it does... yeah, good luck (to us) with that.

319

"If you look down this list, there seem to be some things which government should charge people for. After all, it costs government money to provide stuff."

 Small government. It's a conservative thing. You wouldn't understand.

 Smaller government = greater efficiency = lower taxes ( -including few or no 'fees' of one sort and another. iow, we're currently being double and triple billed, here. If a business contractor did that to ya, you'd throw a fit. If your neighbor did that to ya, you'd sue, at the very least. When your government does it? Even conservatives think it's excusable...

 We've come a long way from the founder's intentions. We've gone a long way past what even the Federalists had in mind, too.

 

 

320

I think those of you bloggers who all seem to hang out together and group think have missed this entire campaign.

Get away from your computers and look at the real world.

Attacking Romney now is personal.  Romney has real solid support.  People who believe he will be a very very big deal as President.

Jack Welch for instance.

These attacks by the loser candidates are not just words they are career ending, make me hate you for the rest of my life words.

Romney's support has not been measured... the press doesn't want to end their ratings bonanza.  But in the real world where real voters live....

Romney is well loved. 

I feel sorry for you stay at home losers who missed the Primary by belly aching on this anti-Romney site and others.  But we have an excellent candidate this time around. The best in fifty years... not my words, Jack Welch's.

You are just so clueless.

 

321

I have less of an repulsion toward fees than I do at taxes.  Fees by their nature are typically avoidable with a fair amount of effort...

Don't want to take the Tri State Tollway (thanks Illinois for raising your tolls again)?  Hop on IL-47, take it to Interstate 80! 

Don't want to pay a cremation fee?  Don't die.  Or opt for a funeral at sea.   

Don't want to pay a real estate transaction fee?  Squat; it works for my idiot brother. 

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie

Thanks for that practical advice.

Fees aren't taxes, if the government is charging you specifically for some specific service  and the charge is reasonably related to the costs of the service.  Example: boat fees at a state park.  Example: a small fee for a marriage license, to cover the administrative costs.

I don't really know the specifics of Romney's Massachussetts budget, but 700 million sounds a lot like we've moved beyond fees and into tax territory.  Just my opinion.

322 will be taken out of context, and flashed into the minds of every OH and PA voter for 6 months.

Posted by: Jean

And Republicans should push back and expose the lie, which will be hard to do if Republicans have spend the prior 6 months endorsing it.

323 107 I'm starting to think Perry's track record may not be due to his keen business savvy. Newt is cementing his reputation as both a big government guy and an asshole. I didn't think anything could get me to like Romney, but these stupid cocksuckers are giving it a go.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head

I wouldn't go that far, but they are definitely making me not like them.  It takes a special kind of magic to pick Romney's one Republican selling point and attack it.  The only thing that would be more bizarre is if Gingrich and Perry started running ads about how Romney was insensitive to illegals.

324 Bottom line: Mitt Romney is the Presidential Candidate who shut down the steel mill. Obama is going to be the candidate who will promise to bring manufacturing jobs back to America (just like every Dem has since they signed and passed NAFTA). Odd that some of us are accused of being OWS supporters for pointing out that Obama is going to win that exchange hands down. And that maybe it's not such a good idea to own-goal ourselves this time. ------ Really? Obama "promising" to bring jobs back has credibility? Really?

325 322 Jimmuy it's not that you think Obama would win this debate it's that you want him to win this debate. Own it.

Posted by: polynikes - Texan for Romney at January 10, 2012 03:19 PM (YeIP1)

No. You're right. Democrats have never, ever resorted to class warfare and emotional appeal, facts-be-damned campaigns.

It's just me. Wanting Obama to win a debate. That Democrats have won a thousand times before. A trap that is about as subtle as a carrot under a cardboard box propped up by a stick.

But: I'm the bad guy for pointing out that a) Obama will use this and turn it up to 11 and b) that Romney has already proven that he won't win that debate.

Like was said: In an election that will be about jobs and Obamacare, we're fixing to nominate . . . the guy who fired people and wrote the rough draft for Obamacare.

326 I don't know why but when I see 'petunia' I'm reminded of Almanzo Wilder's schoolmarm sister in Little House on the Prairie.

Anyone remember who I'm talking about?

I bet she looks like her too.

327

In RE: Bain issues with Romney ...and bemoaning the attacks against "capitalism".

Have none of you people ever even heard of the movie, Pretty Woman?

...because you need to go revisit it.

NOT for the improbable love story.

...but rather for the back story. The one where the Lewis character uses his superior political & money contacts and muscle in a nefarious and callus - and frankly, amoral - manner to take down a half-century old ship-yard business that the Morse character thinks of as more than "just a way to make money".

The Gere character in the story is - at first - Romney at Bain Capital.

(The Lewis/Gere character later changes and decides to help Morse Shipyards instead, as part of the love story. Something Romney has not been able to successfully portray himself as doing: re "I like to fire people" ...good gawd, how tone deaf can a politician be.)

...and trust me on this: how Romney used Bain to make his fortune, and the picture of how he made his fortune, will play with the people who vote in the fall.

They may not have degrees in economics. They may not be regular church-goers. They may not even like Obama.

But they've seen that movie.

And their votes count. A lot.

And they will see - hell, I see - Romney as being painted more as the Philip Stuckey character: a little slime ball legalist, who's not just in it for the money (a la capitalism), but is in it for the kill.

And I don't see, yet, a viable response from Romney ...other than whinging about how it's not fair that other's are attacking him for being a glorious capitalist.

Boo-effing-hoo bucko.

You started it asshole.

Point.

...Romney has a campain history now of unnecessarily creating his own political enemies on the Right ...and it ain't pretty. Worse, his responses aren't credible. Worse yet, they aren't going to play well to the electorate.

Especially as the MSM is in the Obama camp anyways.

I've watched that fricking political ad going around now with the ex-steel mill workers who lost their jobs due to Bain. And it resonated with me, even. I wouldn't knock down a couple of tall cold ones with the sunuvabitch either. And I actually understand the realities of the US steel industry about that time.

That resonance IS the problem.

Politics ain't just about the problems that technocrats (like Romney) love to deal with. You think politic's end-game is simply about dealing with policy issues, you reveal yourself to be a wonk ...which if you're reading this post and this deep into the comments, plus being a regular to political blogs, means you resemble the typical voter about as much as a snow flake resembles a molten ingot.

And if you think Mitt's history at Bain ...and the way he's run his past two campaigns ...for the kill  ...is not going to come into play in the typical voter's heart and soul: you are whistling past the grave yard.

Welcome to four more years of Obama ...which your uninspiring, unlovable, scumbag political machine just foisted upon us.

Congratu-effing-lations.

Full disclosure: I don't like Romney. I don't trust Romney. But at this point I don't like any of the others, either (disappointed slack-jawed, idiot, non-educated, Palin-bot populist here). And I'm going to vote OBA.

But I don't appreciate the second coming of McCain. And I ain't got a good feeling about this.

...the GOP, pulling defeat from the jaws of victory. Again.

Jeezus.

Just.

Jeezus.

328 112 It just amazes me that the anti-Romney crowd at AOSHQ is better at defending Romney from these stupid attacks than Mitt "Waaah, that's not fair!" Romney himself. Who the fuck are consuling these guys?

Posted by: mugiwara

I'm no longer surprised by it.  I routinely see far better responses for ever GOP pol here than the ones the pols use.  85% of the commenters here could have come up with a better Perry defense of his Texas Dream Act.

I'm not surprised by it, but I just don't get it.  The only thing I can figure is that working on a campaign puts you in an insider bubble that distorts your judgment, and even knowing it will happen you can't do anything to stop it.

So you go to focus groups and polling, which are both deeply flawed in their own ways.

A smart campaign would have someone whose job was to monitor places like this.  Not to do outreach, but just to monitor, try out ideas from time to time, report back on what's agitating the base, what good ideas and spin ar bubbling up, stuff like that.

329
The best in fifty years... not my words, Jack Welch's.

Gee...wonder what Jack's successor, Jeff Immelt, has to say about that?

330 This broad

331

Now, I pray (in my atheist way) for the people of Texas.

Ur doin it rong.

332 But Romney has been taking cheap shots left and right. My point is not that these attacks are right. It's that they are deserved.

Posted by: ace

You keep dishonestly describing these as cheapshots.  You know that's not the problem with it, because literally every single person who's complained about them has complained that they are OWS cheapshots.   Obama campaign talking points.  Hope'n'change, so-called Republican edition.

333 181 Bain doesn't hurt Romney in the General Election.

Posted by: Bill Mitchell

Sadly, no.  Like the Ewok said in the OP, if Republican campaigns are doing this, its because their polling and focus grouping shows that it makes a difference in a Republican election.

So it can affect independents and even Republicans.

Informed, consistent conservatives are a minority. 

334 246 Maybe we need an all-positives thread again.  Or something.  I'm at a loss as to how to get us out of this spiral. 

Posted by: Y-not

1.  Have the primaries be over.

2.  Have most of us stop being emotionally invested in a candidate.  Once you get invested, your own brain starts spinning you.

Either one.

 

335 264 >>>I have never heard this kind of crap coming from republicans before.


I have. I heard Romney, for example, claiming that Perry's calling SS a "ponzi scheme" (it is) meant he wanted to "end" SS.

Posted by: ace

And you more or less said that Romney's treason to Republican principles disqualified him to be the nominee.

But now that its Perry, shit don't stink.

336

You are just so clueless.

 Posted by: petunia at January 10, 2012 03:46 PM (hgrmi)

We get it, Petunia.

337

"Romney's support has not been measured..."

Sure it has. 23%. Repeatedly.

338

85% of the commenters here could have come up with a better Perry defense of his Texas Dream Act.

No.

85% of the commentors here could have come up with a better Perry defense in the opinions of 85% of the commentors here.

But if the electorate at large was anything like 85% of commentators here, Perry would be polling 30-40% now anyway.

At the end of the day you can blaim the politicians and their dirty tricks and corruptions, but the voter cannot escape culpability. This is a democracy.  Americans fucked up America.

339

And no, I don't think it very likely they will now fix it.

We're probably fucked no matter who gets elected. In fact, they won't elect anyone that won't piss up their leg and tell them it's raining.

340 I understand that primary candidates have to do some of this. I would just like to think that we're saving more than a little ammo to use on Barry from Mordor. If we get to the end of the primaries and the barrels are too hot and the powder is wet, I'm going to be very disappointed.

341 Access to government doesn't require a "stakeholder" privilege. Once you introduce such a privilege, then it becomes reasonable to introduce fees for service. If you agree that our government is ours, then our taxes should be able to cover all the costs of our interaction with our government. Requesting fees is a form of special taxation. That's not what government should be about. It's best analogized as anex post facto. We either are all equal under the law, or equal, if we pay. .

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