1 Ever notice that when people say "it's time for a national conversation" they really just want you to sit there silently while they lecture you?

2 I saw some idiot on tv today saying that Vicki Soto being hispanic proved we needed immigration reform

3

Ever notice that when people say "it's time for a national conversation" they really just want you to sit there silently while they lecture you?

Yup.  God forbid you should speak up and demonstrate that their arguments are foolish.

4 Third

5 Goddammit

6 Thats why the internet appointed its own Time person of the year on a cover of Time.

7 May G-d grant them eternal peace, and send comfort and consolation to their families and friends.

8 I take the fifth

9 I think taking the fifth was the last thread.

10 I saw some idiot on tv today saying that Vicki Soto being hispanic proved we needed immigration reform Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 03:18 PM (XDC0v) Funny all I ever thought about her was that she was Vicki Soto, not what ( ***-American) she was. Now who is the racist?

11 If they had been carrying they might still be alive today

12 The conversation I want to hear is how Dawn Hochsprung would have double-tapped the bedwetting little coward if she'd been armed.

And maybe gone full Mozambique for good measure.

13 Ever notice that when people say "it's time for a national conversation" they really just want you to sit there silently while they lecture you?


Hey, you're just some guy spouting his opinions; I'm "part of the nation conversation."

14 John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

2 Timothey 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"

Godspeed, heroes.

15

I agree, CBD....these ladies are heroes.

 

There were probably other acts of heroism on that day, that we will not know about...

Some of those little kids were shot more times than others.

Can't help but wonder 'why'.

 

16 Now who is the racist?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 03:20 PM (79ueO)

Obviously you are for not recognizing that America is no longer a White dominated country and for ignoring the brown people.

Or some such blather. I'm getting tired of trying to figure out how they think.

17 Ever notice that the intellectual heft of this site is always proportional to the ratio of participation by Daves?  Also, this is the only time you will see the word "heft" today

18 These are two very fine citizens, and I just know that they would want me to raise your taxes.

19 My National Conversation to leftards: Fuck you.

20 18 zing

21 No offense, but what does putting yourself between a bullet and the target do except get yourself killed sooner than you would have been killed? It would have been nice if they could have wrestled the gun out of their hands or something. I guess they are heros in that they did not abandon the children. Yeah, they're heros. But what about the other adults? There were 6 adults killed at the school.

22 14 Posted by: Weirddave at December 20, 2012 03:21 PM (aH+zP) About a week or so ago, I was reading citations of those posthumously awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor and so many of them were individuals who threw themselves on hand grenades to save the lives of their buddies. No words.

23 Funny all I ever thought about her was that she was Vicki Soto, not what ( ***-American) she was. Answer it as follows: Vickie Soto, Heroic-American. What now, bitches?!?

24 21  I was thing about that today.  Taking a bullet means one less for anybody else

25 Posted by: Weirddave at December 20, 2012 03:21 PM (aH+zP)

Those are fitting and elegant.

Thanks.

26

24 If I have to explain you wouldn't understand

27 Prayers and may their names be remembered always in their acts of heroism and compassion.


I still can't rap my head around the children.  the poor babies, so small and
young  they saw what never should Ever have been seen and experienced.
prayers.

28

True religion is real living; living with all one's soul, with all one's goodness and righteousness.

 

--Albert Einstein

29

21No offense, but what does putting yourself between a bullet and the target do except get yourself killed sooner than you would have been killed? It would have been nice if they could have wrestled the gun out of their hands or something.

--------------------------

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that Hochsprung attempted to do just that.  But trying to do that is always a very dangerous thing, and she failed.  I haven't heard about Soto before now, so I'm not familiar with what she did during the shooting.

 

30 wrap.

31 27  Who among us hasn't seen what should never have been seen and experienced?

32 >>>26 24 If I have to explain you wouldn't understand Posted by: DAve This was uncalled for. Fuck you.

33 Um.... OK... care to elaborate why? I'm guessing they were Connecticut school teachers... they aren't heroes for dying are they? What did they do? I've seen some people call them heroes or assert that they defended the kids, but it seems speculative. I've heard no stories of what actually happened inside the school and this post has bubkis for actual info too.

34 I had a hero for lunch.

35 Let's stop with this shit about "well, if so and so was carrying, blah blah blah.."?

It's a fucking retarded argument.  You want teachers walking the halls with pistols?

Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over.  It was over in minutes.

So, let's knock this shit off.

36 I think a hero is an ordinary person doing something extraordinary

what Hemingway called 'grace under pressure'


These two ladies met that standard. God Bless them and comfort their families.

37 junior she hid the children in the lockers and told 'it' they were  not there, and at the gym.

38 I haven't heard about Soto before now, so I'm not familiar with what she did during the shooting. Posted by: junior at December 20, 2012 03:28 PM (UWFpX) She hid her children in a closet and told the gunman they were in the gym. When a few of the kids ran out of the closet she stepped between the gunman and the kids who ran out of the closet. Unfortunately they were all killed, but the kids who stayed in the closet were not. She did just fine in my book. Heroic for sure

39 Posted by: J.J. Sefton at December 20, 2012 03:25 PM (XkWWK)

I have been reading a history of the naval action around Guadalcanal, and so many of the descriptions of the damaged ships have something like, "Lt. Smith's arm was struck by shrapnel and dangling by a thread, so he switched the hose to his other hand and continued putting out the fire."

I know that I am jaded and disgusted, but it does seem as if we have changed. There is a core that is as brave as ever, but it has shrunk.

40 > I've heard no stories of what actually happened inside the school and this post has bubkis for actual info too.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 03:29 PM (YUttk)

man- who pissed in your cornflakes this morning

41

Ever notice that when people say "it's time for a national conversation" they really just want you to sit there silently while they lecture you?


Sounds like the "dialogue" on race I keep hearing about.

42 I think you're forgetting someone...someone who said words and stuff...

43 >>>-------------------------- My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that Hochsprung attempted to do just that. But trying to do that is always a very dangerous thing, and she failed. I haven't heard about Soto before now, so I'm not familiar with what she did during the shooting. Posted by: junior I believe Soto had the presence of mind to try to hide her students in the closet. She also tried to talk the guy out of shooting.

44

Hey Walkers.  Try not being an asshole.  Your bitch ass would never say that to my face, so why don't you take that pussy shit elsewhere?  It wasn't  meant as personal or an insult, internet shit-talker.

45 But remember: It would be reckless bordering on insanity to have allowed them to have a gun in school.

46 Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:29 PM (UTq/I)

Why, yes, I do want teachers walking the halls with (concealed) pistols.  It's not a retarded argument: the Clackamas Mall Shooter offed himself when a CC holder drew down on him.

47

 

You might add the school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, who seems to have died with Hochsprung. 

These people were -- out of the blue -- dealt horrible hands by fate, and nonetheless played them out as well as possible, with great honor.

48 "You want teachers walking the halls with pistols?"  Yes, yes I do.

49 Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes. Yeah asshole, 20 minutes. Give me a break. If 3 or 4 people had been armed in that school, it's entirely probable it could have been prevented. This guy gained entry by shooting out the door glass. Tell me, if you're sitting at the reception desk and you see some psycho shoot his way through the fucking door, and you have a pistol on your hip, how many "minutes" does it take to draw?

50 35 - Yes Jerry, that's exactly what we want. Some of us carry, all day, everyday and you would be none the wiser.

51 Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes.

So, let's knock this shit off.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:29 PM (UTq/I)

It was 20 minutes of shooting. Coulda have been cut down to 10, maybe even less.

52 heh....  Jerry skimmed over the first post......

53 "You want teachers walking the halls with pistols?" Yup. Possibly also honor students.

54 41 Yep

55 >>>35 Let's stop with this shit about "well, if so and so was carrying, blah blah blah.."? It's a fucking retarded argument. You want teachers walking the halls with pistols? Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes. So, let's knock this shit off. Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry a I believe it would have been better if someone had been carrying in that school. Someone else said there was a 20 minute time lapse from when he gained access to when he killed himself.

56

@35 - Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes.

So, let's knock this shit off.

--------------------------------

It took the cops 20 minutes to arrive, and the shooter didn't kill himself until they showed up.  So lose the attitude, moron, before you hurt yourself.

 

For those who provided info on Soto - thanks.

 

57 I know that I am jaded and disgusted, but it does seem as if we have changed. There is a core that is as brave as ever, but it has shrunk. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 20, 2012 03:31 PM (GsoHv) Not so much change. Remember Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines are trained and trained to preform under difficult conditions. In addition most act that way not for medals or honors but to protect the service member next to them who is often their friend.

58
I think everyone should walk around with a gun.

59 School Marshals. Maybe it's your custodian, but have somebody ready to meet a threat.

60 As someone else pointed out, you don't have to be an expert shot. If you are shooting at them, they are most likely not shooting back at you or anyone else.

61

The Media tosses the word "hero" around much too cavalierly.

 

 

 

 

I detest the media.  They are the enemy.  They are vapid, shallow and stupid.

62 If only that school had been a gun-free zone...

63

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:29 PM (UTq/I)

 

Tell me investigator Jerry how you know that someone at the school could not have stopped the killing?  I can give you multiple examples where armed school employees or armed people in the vicinity of the school prevented further killings.

 

 

64
and if they're wearing kevlar?

shoot them in the face or in the knees

65 No offense, but what does putting yourself between a bullet and the target do except get yourself killed sooner than you would have been killed? It would have been nice if they could have wrestled the gun out of their hands or something. I guess they are heros in that they did not abandon the children. Yeah, they're heros. But what about the other adults? There were 6 adults killed at the school.

Posted by: Walkers! at December 20, 2012 03:24 PM (jWwDJ)

We're not dealing with a rational individual here.  The best you can do is hope that by putting yourself between the gunman and the kids and that the crazy man decides to move on. (It's not clear there was time to try to wrestle the gun anyway.)

Split decision reactions and all.  Still far better than most people would have done (which would have included cowering in the corner.) I'd likely be among "most people."

66 CBD, very nice, thanks.  Nice to put a face to the name.

Too bad your thread got shit smeared all over the carpet this early.   I'm headed back to the doomsday thread.

67 tv media keep talking about this "unspeakable crime".  Then why are they constantly speaking about it?

68 Let's stop with this shit about "well, if so and so was carrying, blah blah blah.."?

It's a fucking retarded argument. You want teachers walking the halls with pistols?

Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes.

So, let's knock this shit off.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:29 PM (UTq/I)

 

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

 

OR  she could have dropped his scrawny ass at the front door if she'd had a weapon.  Fuck you.

69 Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes.

You know that one of the women pictured above was the principal right? If it was all over by the time she got there, who the hell shot her?

70 >>>>44 Hey Walkers. Try not being an asshole. Your bitch ass would never say that to my face, so why don't you take that pussy shit elsewhere? It wasn't meant as personal or an insult, internet shit-talker. Posted by: DAve It was a personal insult. FOAD. No one would miss you.

71 No offense, but what does putting yourself between a bullet and the target do except get yourself killed sooner than you would have been killed? It would have been nice if they could have wrestled the gun out of their hands or something. I guess they are heros in that they did not abandon the children. Yeah, they're heros. But what about the other adults? There were 6 adults killed at the school.Posted by: Walkers! at December 20, 2012 03:24 PM (jWwDJ)

You are one obtuse mofo.

72
Do you live in a state where they outlawed private citizens from owning a taser? I do.

Why? Because tasers can be lethal, too!

what are the other things called, the nifty little cattle prod thingys?

73 man- who pissed in your cornflakes this morning Nobody pissed in my cornflakes, I'm serious. Are we just calling them heroes cuz it's nice? This article doesn't even mention they are teachers... I just inferred it. Seriously, I haven't heard anything, other then people calling them heroes. I don't know if they did something heroic, or if it's arbitrarily for politeness sake, nobody says what or why.

74

and if they're wearing kevlar?

shoot them in the face or in the knees

Someone shooting back is still going to deter a shooter and force them to take cover.  And getting shot in the chest while wearing body armor still hurts, and if the shooter is untrained it will likely knock the wind out of them/knock them down.  .

75 Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 03:38 PM (G/zuv)


stun guns . . ?

76 I've noticed a lib on FB, that somehow wasn't banished start talking about gun control, but always prefaced it with "I don't want this to escalate into a political discussion but...." Which translates into I want to start a political discussion but don't care for reason and logic to ruin my retarded discussion.

77 Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:29 PM (UTq/I)

"You want teachers walking the halls with pistols?"

Yes.

Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes.

She had time enough to leave her office and try to do something to the bedwetting little coward.

78 I'm wondering who were the surviving witnesses who were able to relate what occurred during the time the shooter was rampaging. Was there video surveillance?

79 and if they're wearing kevlar? shoot them in the face or in the knees Shoot them. Period. 10 rds of .230 gr .45acp will feel like a baseball bat. Still leave 2 rounds for the coup de grace.

80 aw fuck

we had a perfectly good opportunity to say nice things about these women, but one or two DICKS had to come in here and fuck things up

spare me your fucking internet expertise FOR ONCE, you poncy fucks


have a nice fucking day

81 I wouldn't think asking All teachers to carry would be a popular idea,  some might not want to or are afraid too, But what of those that Might want to stand in the way of a maniac and the  children?
Special classes
everyone in that school were defensless against that guy. THAT was wrong.
No amount of taking guns from those that would obey the law to give them up will stop a Criminal  from not stealing ,lying to get one/ killing someone to get one. or finding another medium to harm innocent defenseless people.

82 [Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 03:36 PM (G/zuv)[/i]

Hell, shoot 'em in the Kevlar.  People have this crazy idea (thanks to Hollywood) the wearing Kevlar makes one immune to gunshots.  Getting shot while wearing a "bullet-proof" vest has an effect similar to getting whacked with a baseball bat.  Get shot while wearing it and it probably won't kill you, but you damn sure are going to be functioning at the same level you were.

83 Also, this is the only time you will see the word "heft" today Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 03:23 PM (XDC0v) ------------------------------------------------------- Au contraire, mon frere. I bet I could use both Girth and Heft in a sentence.

84 Tell me investigator Jerry how you know that someone at the school could not have stopped the killing? I can give you multiple examples where armed school employees or armed people in the vicinity of the school prevented further killings.

Posted by: polynikes
........
It's not that an armed person couldn't have stopped the killer.  They likely could have.  If they were carrying.

But you will never get the parents of grade school kids to approve of teachers carrying.

They would require the guns be locked down.

It's a dumb argument because it will never happen.  Better to have an armed and trained guard/police officer on premises.

85 You know that one of the women pictured above was the principal right? Fuck no, I did not. Too bad the writer didn't decide the include any actual content or facts or anything Might be helpful.

86 >>>You are one obtuse mofo. Posted by: Sean Bannion Fuck you, too.

87 I find it baffling that there are so many people in this world that act as if nothing bad can happen to them, and if it does, the police will save them. The only person responsible for protecting you and yours is YOU. The police have zero legal obligation to save you. I, for one, take my safety, and the safety of my loved ones, very seriously. I train frequently, I shoot more frequently and I am aware of my surroundings. When did we become a county of men like Jerry?

88 Posted by: Jones in CO at December 20, 2012 03:40 PM (8sCoq)

This X 1000

89 I believe it would have been better if someone had been carrying in that school. In the public schools in my area, the custodians get paid 50k per year. I'd be willing to pay them 51k per year for carrying, with a bonus for bagging a pussy before he fired a single shot.

90 Are we just calling them heroes cuz it's nice? This article doesn't even mention they are teachers... I just inferred it. Seriously, I haven't heard anything, other then people calling them heroes. I don't know if they did something heroic, or if it's arbitrarily for politeness sake, nobody says what or why. Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 03:39 PM (YUttk) Look these two either walked towards the danger or put herself between the danger and those kids. NOT everyone would have done that. That's good enough for me to call them heroes. We call the firemen and cops who walked into the World Trade Center that day after the planes hit heroes for the same reason. They walked to the danger not away from it.

91

DAve @ 1 - So?

92 >>I know that I am jaded and disgusted, but it does seem as if we have changed. There is a core that is as brave as ever, but it has shrunk.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 20, 2012 03:31 PM (GsoHv)

The scope and scale of warfare has shrunk from what was WWII.

Let's pray that we don't have an opportunity to see your fears proven to be true.

I don't think the urge or impulse to save buddies has been lost as of yet.

Not if the side choosing to preserve life from conception continues on this earth.

93 yes, stun guns, thank wu!

94

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:41 PM (UTq/I)

 

It's a good chance that it will happen in Texas.

95 Why did Task Force Taffy put itself between Kurita and the landing party at Leyte Gulf? 

Why did Quatrorocchio die with such dignity? 

Why would someone like von Stauffenberg risk involvement in the Hitler plot?

There's always a chance that the perp will be shamed or impressed enough to stop, or that some low probability event will succeed, even if it means putting oneself at risk on the off chance they can save others.  These ladies were the bravest of the brave.

96 They are heroes for their individual actions. They are also unknowingly martyrs for the cause of Liberalism. Were they deluded into thinking that declaring a place 'gun-free" meant that it actually was so? That keeping no means of self-defense in their possession would prevent bad things from happening TO them? Did they not even have pepper spray? A plan of aggressive self-defense of any kind? I wonder if the absence of men in that building was intentional? Was it ever remarked upon? Was it considered a "good thing" to keep potentially aggressive males out of the workplace? I think I know the answers to those questions. I wish I was wrong.

97 >>>This X 1000 Posted by: Vizzin FOAD X 1000

98 Nobody pissed in my cornflakes, I'm serious.


Are we just calling them heroes cuz it's nice? This article doesn't even mention they are teachers... I just inferred it. Seriously, I haven't heard anything, other then people calling them heroes. I don't know if they did something heroic, or if it's arbitrarily for politeness sake, nobody says what or why.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 03:39 PM (YUttk)

Here's an idea....if you don't know why people are referring to them as heroes, maybe hold your comment until you do know.  

Like fucking clicking on the links above each of their pics.

Good grief.....

99 Fuck you, too. Posted by: Walkers! at December 20, 2012 03:41 PM (jWwDJ)

Oh no, fuck you.  I insist.

100 Hey...ergg...people saying CBD didn't post information.
You are aware of the links in there right?  They explain all your questions.

101
I always wanted to buy one of those short clubs (like a short nightstick) that was also a stunner.

Oh man the fun I could have with that. And by fun I mean wreak havoc.

Alas! It is illegal for me to own one.

102 Jerry, it's the current law in Utah and has been for years. Teachers can carry there.

103 Godspeed and God bless, ladies.  You truly are heroes, and you have doubtless been welcomed by the others who     carry that honor who have preceded you to Heaven.   May we do your memories justice    here on Earth.

104

@84 It's not that an armed person couldn't have stopped the killer. They likely could have. If they were carrying.

But you will never get the parents of grade school kids to approve of teachers carrying.

They would require the guns be locked down.

It's a dumb argument because it will never happen. Better to have an armed and trained guard/police officer on premises.

----------------------------

 

It's already happening at some schools.  It really depends on how the local population feels about guns.  There's not a chance in Hell that it'll be allowed in California.  But in a lot of places where hunting is popular, I can see it easily being accepted.

 

Also, I read the other day that Columbine had both a security officer and a cop on the premises when it was attacked.  But the security guy locked himself in the security office, and the cop had just been called away to deal with something else that started just beforehand, and couldn't make it back in time.

 

105 It's a dumb argument because it will never happen. Better to have an armed and trained guard/police officer on premises.

It does happen. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that there are teachers that carry during the school day. I'll bet there are a lot more carrying today than there were a week ago.

106 I live in Georgia and we have this whackjob AM radio hack who hates schoolteachers and calls them the scum of society and the downfall of the country.

His name is Boortz and he is a fluffer for Limpy now on WSB.

107 Add Anne Marie Murphy to the list. http://goo.gl/4GaNB

108 Hell, shoot 'em in the Kevlar. People have this crazy idea (thanks to Hollywood) the wearing Kevlar makes one immune to gunshots. Getting shot while wearing a "bullet-proof" vest has an effect similar to getting whacked with a baseball bat. Get shot while wearing it and it probably won't kill you, but you damn sure are going to be functioning at the same level you were.

Posted by: Country Singer at December 20, 2012 03:40 PM (L8r/r)

 

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

 

This is true for folks wearing kevlar.  Was this  pissy little fuck wearing kevlar?

109 I wonder if the absence of men in that building was intentional? Was it ever remarked upon? Was it considered a "good thing" to keep potentially aggressive males out of the workplace? I think I know the answers to those questions. I wish I was wrong. Posted by: ChampionCapua at December 20, 2012 03:43 PM (KZi9D) Were do you get that crap from?

110 Sorry, "...aren't going to be functioning at the same level..."

Here's some rednecks demonstrating: http://youtu.be/ZnkYN_4XZhI

For some reason youtube has it restricted, so you have to sign in to view.

111 How do you know some teachers are NOT carrying?

112
Getting shot while wearing a "bullet-proof" vest has an effect similar to getting whacked with a baseball bat.

yeah, with a .45 but maybe not with a 9mm

what say the rest of yous?

113 It does happen. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that there are teachers that carry during the school day. I'll bet there are a lot more carrying today than there were a week ago  Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 20, 2012 03:45 PM (+lsX1)

Probably, but I'll be willing to bet the universe of that specific population approaches zero in Connecticut.

114 But you will never get the parents of grade school kids to approve of teachers carrying. And instead, they're planning funerals for kindergarteners. Great tradeoff.

115 Soona, no, he wasn't. Someone had said, "what if".

116 absolutely

117 Here's an idea....if you don't know why people are referring to them as heroes, maybe hold your comment until you do know. Then how the fuck am I going to find out if no one tells me? Is that a "comment" or a "question"? Should I just hold all my questions until after I have answers, and then ask people shit I already know?

118 It does happen. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that there are teachers that carry during the school day. I'll bet there are a lot more carrying today than there were a week ago.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 20, 2012 03:45 PM (+lsX1)

 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

 

Before last Friday, if you'd ask a random number of teachers in OK or TX whether they carry, you'd be surprised at the number that do.

 

I'm sure that number has gone up this week. 

119

I wonder if the absence of men in that building was intentional? Was it ever remarked upon? Was it considered a "good thing" to keep potentially aggressive males out of the workplace?

 

In case you haven't noticed, "Early Education" is almost always dominated by women.   Right or wrong, that's how it is.  Less than 25% of early education teachers are male, making it a nontraditional occupation for men.  In other words, there ain't a lot of male teachers for that grade level to go around.

 

Now    FO.

120 112 - 9mm would hurt like fuck all. Get real. I have never been shot, but I have taken shrapnel to the face and hands. It fucking hurts too and that was just pieces of bullets - penetrated my kevlar shooting gloves.

121 Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper at December 20, 2012 03:45 PM (ULNMd)

Let guess: you're in Buckhead?

122

Nobody who advocates for CCW in the schools is saying it should be *required*.  Nobody.

 

What we are saying is that teachers, administrators, janitors, etc. should have the *option* persuant to the same (or even increased) level of background check, training, and continuing education.

123
I'd rather shoot them in the face. I think it'd send the right message.

124 Then how the fuck am I going to find out if no one tells me?


Is that a "comment" or a "question"? Should I just hold all my questions until after I have answers, and then ask people shit I already know?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 03:47 PM (YUttk)

Did you read the rest of my comment....about clicking on the links above each of their pics?!

125 His name is Boortz and he is a fluffer for Limpy now on WSB. Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper at December 20, 2012 03:45 PM (ULNMd) ----------------------------------------------------------- Boortz retired, retard.

126 Quatrorocchio ? Chi? Is that the hostage who told Zarqawi "I'll show you how an Italian dies"?

127 Jerry, it's the current law in Utah and has been for years. Teachers can carry there. Posted by: Witchfinder
............
Well, more power to 'em.  I just highly doubt most school boards would go for it.

And I must backtrack a bit.  I didn't realize Hochsprung was one of the first people the kid encountered.  She came right out of her office.  So, if she had had a gun locked down in her office, she could have prevented the entire thing in the first minutes.

128 It's not a question if the janitor or teacher could have stopped this fuckhead, it's if future dead-enders know that these types episodes are more likely to be non-starters, the number of occurrences will drop.

Suicide by cop is a different thing entirely.

129 Is that a "comment" or a "question"? Should I just hold all my questions until after I have answers, and then ask people shit I already know?

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 03:47 PM (YUttk)

 

Oorrrr you could hold your questions,    read the stories,    digest their meaning,    and then NOT ask questions to which you already know the g-ddamn answers,   but rather ask questions to which you still require elucidation.  

 

Click the frigging links, entropy.   Read the stories.   THEN comment.    

130

I'm not saying that I carry at work because its not allowed,  but I know for certain that if a disgruntled person decided to try and shoot up my place of employment, he would receive return fire.   Just saying.

 

Unfortunately in my business its entirely possible. 

131 what say the rest of yous? Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 03:46 PM (G/zuv)

I've seen the reverse side of a Kevlar vest shot with a 9mm.

Bruised ribs and a little wind knocked out of you would be the result.  But that still buys you time to move in for a better shot, or get out of Dodge.

With a .45, the target is going to get knocked over on his ass.   Again, that buys time.

132 The Mainstream Media will have you believe that Barack Obama is a hero. 

133 So let me get this straight, to some tough guys on here, 2 women who put themselves between a crazed gunmen and defenseless children may not be heroes? Go fuck yourselves. What the fuck would you have done heroes? Jesus Christ.

134 yeah, with a .45 but maybe not with a 9mm what say the rest of yous? I'll hold your coat while you try it.

135 So let me get this straight, to some tough guys on here, 2 women who put themselves between a crazed gunmen and defenseless children may not be heroes? Go fuck yourselves. What the fuck would you have done heroes? Jesus Christ. Posted by: Witchfinder at December 20, 2012 03:51 PM (pLTLS) Amen

136 This is the fuck you thread? Should I be telling someone to fuck off as well?

137

Show of hands - who wants to take a 124  grainer at 1100 feet per second to the kevlar?

 

Anyone?

138
and yet none of you mention a range, so I assume you mean close range with a 9mm?

btw, does everyone have a HAIR ACROSS HIS/HER ASSES, TODAY?

139 FOAD X 1000

Hey, I'm not the one who shit in the punchbowl.  It takes a big man to admit he is wrong, but you'll never know that, will you?

140 LOUD NOISES

141 It's not that an armed person couldn't have stopped the killer. They likely could have. If they were carrying. But you will never get the parents of grade school kids to approve of teachers carrying. They would require the guns be locked down. It's a dumb argument because it will never happen. Better to have an armed and trained guard/police officer on premises. ---- Have both. Why would you appoint someone to be the one with the gun? Who stops him? The best course is to have anyone carrying a gun, preferably anonymously. If a parent doesn't like it, don't let the door hit their precious little prince or princess in the ass and find a private school to suit their needs.

142 This is the fuck you thread? Should I be telling someone to fuck off as well? This is what happens when you go too long without a flamefest thread.

143 This is turning into an airing of the Grievances.

144 I can't believe this thread has become controversial? Disgusting.

145 You're a good man Chi-Town Jerry

146
I didn't say it would tickle.

I assumed that everyone here understood that I meant STOPPING POWER?

147

btw, does everyone have a HAIR ACROSS HIS/HER ASSES, TODAY?

=====

no shit.

148 This is the fuck you thread? Should I be telling someone to fuck off as well?Posted by: L, Elle who wants a wookie this year for Christmas at December 20, 2012 03:52 PM (0PiQ4)

Only if it is directed at mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, sub-literate, morally
compromised commenters.

We'll let you figure out which ones those are.

149 So, if she had had a gun locked down in her office, she could have prevented the entire thing in the first minutes.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at December 20, 2012 03:49 PM (UTq/I)

----

If that would have happened.... we'd have barely heard of Newtown.

Did you guys catch that peice on Reuters, CNN, MSNBC and CBS about that CCW holder that confronted the Oregon mall shooter and how he probably save scores of lives????

No????

Neither did anybody else......

150 Now FO. Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at December 20, 2012 03:48 PM (4df7R) I'm unclear as to what I said that would cause you to suggest that I FO? Were do you get that crap from? Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 03:45 PM (79ueO) I get that crap from observing the schools every where I have ever lived that try to make boys into girls with penises. This is not a new concept.

151 Did you read the rest of my comment....about clicking on the links above each of their pics?! Yes, but that has nothing to do with the part I quoted, which is you leaping to assumptions and jumping down my throat because you're highly emotional. And let's be frank, this reply is probably going to wind you even more out of shape. But that's your thing so I'll let you handle it.

152 With a .45, the target is going to get knocked over on his ass. Again, that buys time.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at December 20, 2012 03:50 PM (sbV1u)

 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

 

That's why I like the .45  round.  Even a shot in the forearm and that fucker's going down.

153 This is turning into an airing of the Grievances. Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 20, 2012 03:53 PM (Ec6wH) =============================== Well, that does happen right before Festivus.

154 In case you haven't noticed, "Early Education" is almost always dominated by women. Right or wrong, that's how it is. Less than 25% of early education teachers are male, making it a nontraditional occupation for men. In other words, there ain't a lot of male teachers for that grade level to go around.

Now FO.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at December 20, 2012 03:48 PM (4df7R)

 

I don't even know if parents would be comfortable with male teachers in early education because of the stigma of any man around small children.  I don't even playfully joke around with children I encounter with their parents I don't know and barely do so with children of friends.  Any attention you give kids now is looked on with suspicion.    

155 I can't believe this thread has become controversial? Disgusting. The natural crankiness of Moron Nation has only gotten worse since Piss-Poor Judgement Day last month. Suffice to say, beatings will continue until morale improves.

156 Agreed. I would add this little girl, as another heroine. http://tinyurl.com/br7rkgn

157

Bruised ribs and a little wind knocked out of you would be the result. But that still buys you time to move in for a better shot, or get out of Dodge.

 

I also guaran-damn-tee you that, with rare exception, the very fact that being shot while wearing a kevlar vest DOES have a physical effect is going to be so shocking to the shooter that    you'll have a few more crucial seconds to subdue him or her.    As has been mentioned upthread,   movies and TV make it look like,   if    you get shot    while wearing a vest,        you can just get up and move on as if nothing happened, except maybe wincing a little.       Maybe that's true for some,      but      these impotent little turds aren't anywhere near as fit as the typical soldier or police officer who would normally be wearing that kind of gear.   They'll be      gobsmacked that being shot actually HURT.

158 The Marine Sarg standing guard outside the Tennessee Elementary School unarmed but in Camies would probably all by his lonesome dissuade 95% of the nuts intending to do harm.

159 @126
That's the one.  Truly impressive.

160 I'm fucking off for the day myself. 

If I don't see you again Merry post apocalyptic Chistmas.

161 What lovely women. How sad.

162 Click the frigging links, entropy. Read the stories. THEN comment. Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at December 20, 2012 03:49 PM (4df7R) __ He can't cuz he's winding down

163 Now that's a bold statement.

164 The problem is the media again. If a shooter gets taken down by someone in Texas for example before shooting anyone it won't make the news. No body count, he just accidentally walked into the place with two guns and 500 rounds nothing to see here. No history of mental illness (yet)

165 Any attention you give kids now is looked on with suspicion

Maybe you should go with a different style of mustache and trade in the ice cream truck for a regular car.

166 >> With a .45, the target is going to get knocked over on his ass. Only in the movies. The bullet can't transmit more energy than it had when it left the muzzle, and the shooter would also be knocked down if there was enough force to bowl over the target.

167 Posted by: polynikes at December 20, 2012 03:55 PM (m2CN7)

I also think there's something to the idea of Maternal Instinct.
That is to say, Women (especially young women) are just more naturally suited towards dealing with a room full of young kids then men.
Biology and all that.  I know I couldn't do it.

168

OK I clicked on the link and signed that petition! Right?

169 A Federal Hydra-shok 230 grain .45 acp travelling at 900 fps = 414 ft lbs. Anyone care to stop 414 ft lbs with their chest?

170

AFAIK, the Newtown piece of shit was wearing the same armor as the piece of shit in Aurora and Oregon, which is to say he wasn't wearing armor.  Just a ballistic nylon molle vest.  Basically a gymbag with arm holes.

 

The 9mm vs .40 vs .45ACP thing is completely fucked out.  They all suck pretty much the same.  The name of the game is shot placement.  Multiple shot placement.

171 Hell, yes, I want teachers walking the halls with guns on their hips.  My niece, a tiny little HS math teacher, has had gigantic football players offer to rape her or murder her for not giving them A grades.  They do not want to take the tests, quizzes, or do their homework, but, they deserve an A, so they will look better to the college recruiters because they have no issues with their grades.

Do an internet search for safest school in America.  It is in Texas and the teachers are armed.

You also do not see school shootings in inner city schools where there are armed guards because of the gangs.

I blame the Lanza kid's mother, she knew he was crazy and she took him shooting and kept guns and ammo in her home.  She was pouring gasoline on a lit match, IMHO.  I also blame the media for making celebrities out of all these mass murderers.

172 Really, if anyone pretends like SOP says to read everything before you comment I'm calling my union rep. That is total BS.

173
wait a minute

Let's say you're in a theater watching Biblo Baggins and Frodo.

And then storms in a pink-haired goofball wearing a kevlar vest and with an AR-15. You have your trusty Sig 226.

He's shooting indiscriminately. What do you do?

You shoot at him thinking you'll knock him back? Meanwhile he's shooting at you, too, and all you're wearing is your gray Members Only jacket.

174 Lot of vets looking for work. Hows about firing the diversity coordinator and have a discreetly armed vet keeping an eye on the place?

175 Maybe you should go with a different style of mustache and trade in the ice cream truck for a regular car.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at December 20, 2012 03:58 PM (+lsX1)

 

actually its a panel van.

176 Regulations clearly state you're suppose to post first, and then call anyone who responds a shithead for disagreeing.

177 Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes. So, let's knock this shit off. ---- Just knowing you are going to try and pull off a mass shooting, where the people may or may not get you first could have deterred it altogether..

178

The bullet can't transmit more energy than it had when it left the muzzle, and the shooter would also be knocked down if there was enough force to bowl over the target.

 

I was debating pointing that out, but decided to keep my head down. The Law of Conservation of Energy, one of the few laws that's still observed.

179 Can't help but wonder 'why'. Posted by: wheatie at December 20, 2012 03:22 PM (K4wCe) If he really did worship satan as they are saying... that is what was "guiding" him.

180
I tell you what,

I ain't standing or kneeling in front of this guy. I won't last two seconds. I'm hitting the deck and aiming for his shins.

181 I don't even know if parents would be comfortable with male teachers in early education because of the stigma of any man around small children. I don't evenplayfully jokearound with children I encounter with their parentsI don't know and barely do so with children of friends.Any attention you give kidsnow is looked on with suspicion.

Posted by: polynikes at December 20, 2012 03:55 PM (m2CN7) \

 

They wouldn't, and it's a shame.  

 

This frustrates me no end.   Male-dominated careers are expected to welcome women with open arms, but traditionally female-dominated careers -- such as childcare --    are still considered off-limits to the male population.      I understand that,  when it comes to    young children,   families are naturally going to be very protective.    But you know what?    I've read news stories and seen reports of women who are JUST as cruel and JUST as lewd    with children    as any man would ever be.      But somehow they don't get talked about.

 

But, this isn't the thread for me to get on my soapbox about    so-called   equality cutting both ways.      I'll save that for another day.

182 Posted by: Andy at December 20, 2012 03:58 PM (C/NnJ)

I think that was a bit of Metaphor.  Also, the arms do absorb and disperse the shock.  If you stood behind a gun, fired it and let the gun hit you in the chest, you'd at least double over in pain (consider how many people injure their eyes not paying attention with scopes.)

Is it going to "knock you down" by itself?  No, but the resultant pain and surprise is likely to case you to trip up.

183 {i} I don't even know if parents would be comfortable with male teachers in early education because of the stigma of any man around small children. I don't evenplayfully jokearound with children I encounter with their parentsI don't know and barely do so with children of friends.Any attention you give kidsnow is looked on with suspicion. Posted by: polynikes at December 20, 2012 03:55 PM (m2CN7){/i} That's my point. 20-year old men are not easy to overpower if you are not their physical match. I applaud the women for trying, and I can't say I would do what they did in all honesty. I hope I would, but I have never been tested. Males have been demonized to the point that we avoid entering trades where we might even be suspected of being perverts. And apparently, Fuck You is the answer to that observation.

184 Lot of vets looking for work. Hows about firing the diversity coordinator and have a discreetly armed vet keeping an eye on the place? Posted by: D. Hopper at December 20, 2012 04:00 PM (AVfT You could probably find a whole boat load of young Vets or Reservists who would gladly take a part time security job, if not for money, maybe for free Credit to the local State College or University.

185 Suffice to say, beatings will continue until morale improves.  Posted by: Brother Cavil, keeper of the Sacred Ampersands at December 20, 2012 03:55 PM (GBXon)

With ahem, some of the Moron Horde, the beatings are the draw..that and the stompy boots, pointy elbows, and "pompoms".

186 Anyone ever hear of Tracy Bridges or Ted Besen?

187 136 Absolutely.

188 Not to mention being very positive role models for the boys...

189
Unless you guys are imagining yourselves doing somersaults and shit in between firing rounds? You're not, are you?

190 The bullet can't transmit more energy than it had when it left the muzzle, and the shooter would also be knocked down if there was enough force to bowl over the target. Arms & wrists flex to absorb recoil. Does your chest?

191 >> I think that was a bit of Metaphor. Agreed. But lots of people think that's really how it works because of the movies. Not you morons, I know. But other people.

192 I was debating pointing that out, but decided to keep my head down. The Law of Conservation of Energy, one of the few laws that's still observed.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 20, 2012 04:00 PM (4u2LN)

 

You guys have seen the video of the soldier being knocked down by a sniper right?  Plates saved his ass but he was knocked down.   

193 Really, if anyone pretends like SOP says to read everything before you comment I'm calling my union rep. That is total BS.

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 03:59 PM (YUttk)

 

Your comment asked, "Are we just calling these women heroes because it feels good?"   Before asking that,    it's not unexpected that you would know     a   bit about the story beforehand.     Heaven knows every news source on the planet has been saturated by this awful story for the past week.    If you didn't absorb their individual     stories     thru     osmosis by now, then asking you to do a little independent reading instead of being spoonfed the answer isn't outside the realm of realism, is it?  

194 Years ago my company fired an ex-navy guy and he felt I was responsible. He had actually commented about walking in and shooting up the place which was the trigger for the firing athough there were ongoing other problems . Lets just say I kept my eyes wide open for at least a year after that, despite other people laughing it off.

195 158 The Marine Sarg standing guard outside the Tennessee Elementary School unarmed but in Camies would probably all by his lonesome dissuade 95% of the nuts intending to do harm. Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 03:56 PM (79ueO) Unarmed? Speaketh not such foulness, give the man a 1911 already, then we're talking!

196 Andy was kind enough to add some links, so if anyone is unfamiliar with these two women, take a look.

197 178 The weight of the firearm soaks up alot of the energy.  That's why you can shoot someone in the head and it just explodes.  F=mvsquared

198 I was a male, teaching in an elementary school for five years and didn't find much testosterone on the premises. Yeah, the janitor, of course, who was old and tired and broke out in a sweat walking across the room. The pretty much gay guidance counselor for a time. It's pretty much an exclusive 'all-girls' club. Not that there's anything wrong with that, they have skilz in certain stuff that males never can approach. But the ratio could/should be examined in light of security issues.

199 I'm Ralph Cox. I'm from wherever's not gonna get me hit!

200 Unless you guys are imagining yourselves doing somersaults and shit in between firing rounds? You're not, are you?

If you don't practice your tactical cartwheels at the range you'll never be able to do them properly when it counts.

201 > You want teachers walking the halls with pistols?

Yes.

202 Nobody likes to think about devoted teachers or little children needlessly sacrificed to deep fried thinking of a twisted mental defective, but when you add groups with a ready agenda and their commie allies in the MFM eagerly pouncing on any opportunity to exploit this horror, normal reactions and restraint quickly go by the board.

Inconsolable sorrow and sympathy for the victims.

Seething hatred for those poised and eager to exploit.

It's a combustible mix after a few days.

203

All you really need to do is ALLOW teachers to carry.  You don't have to force anyone.  You don't even have to reqire X number at any given school.  Just the potential that someone will shoot back will likely stop a bedwetting pussy like Lanza from going somewhere he thinks he rules the roost and killing a bunch of kids.  Just let people exercise the right they're already supposed to have, and take down the fucking "no gun zone" signs.  That's all we need to do.

204 Years ago my company fired an ex-navy guy and he felt I was responsible. He had actually commented about walking in and shooting up the place which was the trigger for the firing athough there were ongoing other problems . Lets just say I kept my eyes wide open for at least a year after that, despite other people laughing it off. Posted by: Bill (from Canada) at December 20, 2012 04:05 PM (pZH1V) Well Navy Guys and all?

205 Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes. ------- the principal could have gotten off several shots with a damn musket between the time it started and when the police arrived.

206 Posted by: polynikes at December 20, 2012 04:05 PM (m2CN7)

Funny you should mention that, I was just thinking about that one.  Used to see it/use it for counter-sniper training briefs.  In that case, though you're seeing a guy get it with a rifle round, not a pistol round.

207 195  Nonononono!!! The 1911 is a "military-style weapon"!!!

208

Posted by: soothsayer at December 20, 2012 04:00 PM (G/zuv)

 

No, hes initialy shooting at the CROWD, not me.... and my normal double tap is one to the chest, and one to the head... and can do it consistantly at less than 50 feet with my .45....

 

And a .45 hitting Kevlar WILL knock him on his ass.... and when he's on his ass, he is not shooting people...

 

AND... statistics show that with Mass Shooters, as soon as someone confronts them, they generaly then commit suicide, which is their intent all along... (note, last week guy commited suicide as soon as he heard cops showing up)

209 >>>I don't evenplayfully jokearound with children I encounter with their parentsI don't know and barely do so with children of friends.Any attention you give kidsnow is looked on with suspicion.

what's worse is risk. If I actually wanted to be a primary teacher, watching how they treat male teachers in the media when allegations are leveled against them should give anyone pause. I don't need some smarmy 6th grader ruining my life because they know a neat way to get back at me for taking away their Ipod in class.

Everyone's opinion is stacked against you from go. Why even take the risk?

210 After he fired the first shot I would have dodged it and somersaulted across the hall to the fire alarm. I would have pulled it. I would then dodge more bullets on the way to breaking the glass on the fire hose/ax panel. I would have then grabbed the ax and thrown it at the perpetrators head (scoring a perfect hit, it would have stuck into his skull), and then turn the fire hose on and washed the scum out into the parking lot. After that I would have asked one of the women in the office to call the police, telling her to have them meet me outside.

211 You could probably find a whole boat load of young Vets or Reservists who would gladly take a part time security job, if not for money, maybe for free Credit to the local State College or University. to meet cute teachers.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 04:02 PM (79ueO)

FIFY

212

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 20, 2012 04:06 PM (feFL6)

 

Curious , did you ever feel hesitant in displaying any type of physical contact with your kids because of the, for a better term,  the To Catch A Predator culture we are in?  

213 166 >> With a .45, the target is going to get knocked over on his ass. Only in the movies. The bullet can't transmit more energy than it had when it left the muzzle, and the shooter would also be knocked down if there was enough force to bowl over the target. Posted by: Andy at December 20, 2012 03:58 PM (C/NnJ) ---------------- Had a Vietnam vet friend that got it in the arm from a VC with 1911. He said it spun him around enough to lose any balance and he went down. He's the one who sold me on the .45 round.

214 210cont. ... and HER to meet me in the broom closet in five.

215
there's nothing worse than a shootout in close quarters in a movie that involves automatic weapons vs one man with a pistol...

and he wins

216 You could probably find a whole boat load of young Vets or Reservists who would gladly take a part time security job, if not for money, maybe for free Credit to the local State College or University. to meet cute teachers. for the military retirement points.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 20, 2012 04:02 PM (79ueO)

FIFY

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 20, 2012 04:09 PM (GsoHv)

FIFY

217 If you didn't absorb their individual storiesthru osmosis by now, then asking you to do a little independent reading instead of being spoonfed the answer isn't outside the realm of realism, is it? Are you new? Seriously though. I know you're not new, you're just being butthurt and it's causing you to act new. Because no one who's been on the internet for more than 3 days needs me to answer that.

218 I'm Ralph Cox. I'm from wherever's not gonna get me hit!

Posted by: jakeman at December 20, 2012 04:07 PM (96M6e)

Good movie!

"Well, how 'bout it boys? Look like hockey to you? Looks more like a couple monkeys trying to hump a football to me, I don't know."

219 My minuscule reaction--I think that the pervasive depiction of violence in the culture has desensitized a vast swath of already amoral, unfeeling young men to the effects. Their minds are affected for the worse, and these mass shootings will continue, with or without "sensible" gun control. I'm done. I'm not buying the realistic war games. I'm not buying blood-spattered movies. I don't want to see it anymore--I've seen the effects of violence up close and don't want it stylized or ritualized, even if the violence is "justified," or if the heroes are blasting "zombies." I don't want it in my house and I don't want to sanction it by watching it in sight of my kids.

220 210cont.... and HER to meet me in the broom closet in five. Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 04:11 PM (XDC0v) --------------------------------------------------------- Feel free to add to the story or embellish as you please.

221 NASHVILLE, TENN. After the tragic events at Sandy Hook Elementary, a former Marine decided to stand guard at his children's school, and parents said he was a welcome addition, CBS Nashville affiliate WTVF-TV reports. Jordan Pritchard, a former staff sergeant in the U.S. Marine Corps, pulled down his old uniform from his attic Monday and sought to bring a sense of safety to his community. He was standing guard outside the front door of Gower Elementary School until Wednesday, when Metropolitan Nashville Public Schools finished for the year http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57560221/ex-marine-dad-stands-guard-at-school-after-newtown/

222 213 didn't he know that a bullet can't transmit any force stronger than the recoil impulse? 

223 @203 Plus it costs nothing.

224

There have been several school shootings that were thwarted here in OK.

They were stopped before anyone was hurt. 

But unless you live here, you probably didn't hear about them.

 

There were different circumstances each time.

The most recent one, was last Friday...same day as the massacre in CT.

 

A kid in Bartlesville was planning to lure people into the school gym and then lock the doors and shoot people.

Some of his friends turned him in.

So...much different circumstances than in CT...because the kid had friends, and he tried to get them involved in his plot.

 

There was another time, where a teacher pulled out a weapon and disarmed a potential shooter.

Seems like that one was in Bartlesville too.

Not sure what it is about Bartlesville...

 

 

225 220 I couldn't.  you KILLED it... honestly that's the hardest I've laughed in the last 72 hours.

226

Posted by: Country Singer at December 20, 2012 04:07 PM (L8r/r)

 

Yes a rifle round but it still goes to the physics question.  I don't think the shooter was knocked over when he fire his gun which is what they were saying. I agree with the physics , but contend that the shooter is bracing for impact whereas the one being shot is not which means its possible to have someone be knocked down when hit. 

227 CBD, that's another good one. But my absolute favorite is "You think you can win on talent alone? You boys don't have enough talent to win on talent alone."

228 Ever see/hear of someone shooting a pistol gripped 12 ga. and the recoil splits their forehead open? That's what the person on the other end is receiving. Without the benefit of arm muscles absorbing some recoil.

229 >>>Even if the principal had a gun in her office, by the time she had retrieved it, it would have been all over. It was over in minutes. So, let's knock this shit off.

It was over in like 20 minutes. I could run back and forth across that campus 10 times in that amount of time. And I am out of shape. Let's at least be factual.

230 Handgun bullet impacts do not knock people over. At least not reliably. I mean, sure, if you throw in the surprise of getting hit or being off balance or other things, maybe. There are tons of videos like this on the Internets if you care to look. http://youtu.be/VDRRJZ6rJBY That bullet is going as fast as it's ever going to go and has as much energy as it's ever going to have a few inches from the muzzle.

231 Hmm.  Do you want UNION teachers to carry?  They'll want more money.

232 and the shooter would also be knocked down if there was enough force to bowl over the target. The gun does not accelerate the bullet instantaneously. Pressure rising in the chamber is far greater than just the force exerted backwards. The gun and your arm have much more mass than the tiny little bullet, and the difference is made up in velocity. Pressure expands outside the barrel both up, down and sideways but the bullet flies in only 1 direction. It isn't going to bowl you over but a big caliber with low penetration will knock your ass down all the same.

233
nood

234 I have two kids in Grade 6 and 8 in Texas. I expect the teachers to take care of them all day, I sure as hell want them to be able to protect them from a nut. On parents night I've seen cops and border patrol carrying while talking to their kids teachers. Why not have a weapon available all day.

235 198 - they have skilz in certain stuff that males never can approach ---- Yes they do. Yes. They do.

236

The weight of the firearm soaks up alot of the energy.

 

 

You don't understand. Before the cartridge is fired, neither bullet nor rifle nor shooter have any momentum. When the cartridge is fired, the bullet leaves the barrel with a certain momentum, and the rifle/shooter experience the exact same momentum, but with opposite sign. It's just like one ice skater pushing another, or two billiard balls colliding. Every action generates an equal and opposite reaction. Otherwise energy/momentum won't be conserved.

237 Let's stop with this shit about "well, if so and so was carrying, blah blah blah.."?It's a fucking retarded argument. You want teachers walking the halls with pistols? Jesus. Why so much anger? If one person was saved, it would be worth it. ONE. And, better to try, than be at the mercy of a mad man.

238 Posted by: jakeman at December 20, 2012 04:14 PM (96M6e)

"When you pull on that jersey, you represent yourself and your teammates. And the name on the front is a hell of a lot more important than the one on the back! Get that through your head! "

239

Are you new? Seriously though. I know you're not new, you're just being butthurt and it's causing you to act new.

 

I am not "butthurt," thank you very much.   Your question was silly.   You said yourself you    had to deduce that they were    teachers because the articles didn't tell you,   except yes, all the articles I've read about either of these women    said very clearly that one was the principal and the other was an "educator" (newspeak for "teacher")    who protected her students (again, clearly a teacher).    Since you admitted to not knowing that one simple piece of obvious,    readily available information, then why should I believe you knew anything about them at all?

240 No offense, but what does putting yourself between a bullet and the target do except get yourself killed sooner than you would have been killed? It would have been nice if they could have wrestled the gun out of their hands or something. I guess they are heros in that they did not abandon the children. Yeah, they're heros. But what about the other adults? There were 6 adults killed at the school. Posted by: Walkers! at December 20, 2012 03:24 PM (jWwDJ) "No offence". Words spoken by a coward in a lame attempt to diffuse their offence. These ladies tried. Yes- they were killed for their efforts. And in so doing, they managed to slow him down, if not outright stop the massacre. 2 separate acts of heroism that I'm not surprised you don't understand. Ask yourself- would you have tried, or would you be content knowing Lanza wouldn't look in the broom closet you're shitting your pants in? I honestly don't get why you're even commenting here.

241 Curious , did you ever feel hesitant in displaying any type of physical contact with your kids because of the, for abetter term, the To Catch A Predator culture we are in? Oh yeah, I had a three second rule. Kids are affectionate, but I had the rule. No hug for any longer then that, any sort of physical contact had to be of the shortest duration possible without being a rebuff. I was married and nearly fifty at the time, so the parents probably viewed me as 'safe' but I did not feel comfortable. I wanted the 'kids' to have the most enjoyable experience of their young lives, making every day at school as exciting as I could. Some kids wanted to show their excitement and enjoyment of the experience in what an observer walking past the classroom would describe as 'inappropriate'. So I did five years only, the average before getting out. I really couldn't get past that problem. Any male considering early ed has to consider that. If I was asked for advice from a male college grad going into education, I'd recommend the higher grades.

242 The 1911 .45 round was developed to knock dowm Maori warriors.  i guess they were just pussies who couldn't handle recoil.  Doesn't your own good sense tell you that there is more force being imparted to your body by being shot 6 times than there is shooting 6 times?

243 The bullet can't transmit more energy than it had when it left the muzzle, and the shooter would also be knocked down if there was enough force to bowl over the target.Posted by: Andy at December 20, 2012 03:58 PM (C/NnJ)

Yeah, well I've seen it happen in combat.  With both .45 and 5.56 rds.

So I guess that didn't happen then.

244 This is ridiculous. Getting shot and killed does not make you a hero. It makes you a victim. The principal heard the break in and flipped the incom switch. That was smart and warned other people. She and the psych rushed to the door. I don't know what happened then. I'm not convinced she deliberately ran towards a guy with a rifle or if she went to confront him and was surprised by the fact that he had one. Did she lunge at him? I don't know. Were their security tapes? A witness? Where are you guys getting this stuff? Soto had the presence of mine to help some kids escape and others to hide in the closet. Who witnessed her getting in front of a bullet? Everyone in that room was killed except for the kids who remained hidden in the closet. Was she a hero? Yes, for helping the kids escape and hide and remaining when she could have escaped and saved herself. I feel like I've wandered into some lefty PC bullshit. Okay, now you can all attack me. Get it all out, tough guys.

245 In case you hadn't put the pieces together, the young brunette woman who was photographed outdoors with cars in the background while wailing into her cell phone on Friday is Soto's sister. I presume that she was learning of her sister's death. An iconic photograph, tragic, but iconic. Those women didn't have to die. If any of them were packing the way that most CCW permit holders do, they would be attending grief counseling sessions right now trying to deal with the fact that they had killed a 20 year old psychotic. Instead, they are being buried. I have a lot of beefs with teachers and their unions - none of those beefs deserves the death sentence- but given the amount of time they waste on "in-service days" why don't we suggest that at least on of those days be spent at the local firing range qualifying on their firearms. Until schools realize that the responsibility for protecting their students from deadly force lies with them and them alone (by virtue of the immediacy of the attack and the lag time of police response) these kinds of attacks will certainly happen again.

246 236  Jay that's not accurate.  Otherwise a heavy rifle and a light one would have the same recoil.  They don't.

247 You don't understand. Before the cartridge is fired, neither bullet nor rifle nor shooter have any momentum. When the cartridge is fired, the bullet leaves the barrel with a certain momentum, and the rifle/shooter experience the exact same momentum, but with opposite sign. It's just like one ice skater pushing another, or two billiard balls colliding. Every action generates an equal and opposite reaction. Otherwise energy/momentum won't be conserved. The gun has about 150 times more inertia than the bullet does. If you have a 6" barrel, that's the same amount of force accelerating in 6" vs. decelerating in 3".

248 Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Hobbit at December 20, 2012 04:17 PM (4df7R) Care to clarify why I should Fuck Off? You're the thread monitor, apparently. Do you want a conversation, or just to scold everyone you don't agree with, be it their message or demeanor?

249 219 My minuscule reaction--I think that the pervasive depiction of violence in the culture has desensitized a vast swath of already amoral, unfeeling young men to the effects. Their minds are affected for the worse, and these mass shootings will continue, with or without "sensible" gun control. Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 20, 2012 04:12 PM (Ec6wH) --- Mass killings in the US peaked in 1929. A lot of very violent video games and movies came out that year, Lord knows. Just a little "sensible" content control and everything will be back to the good old days of the 60s when mass shootings were more common than they are today.

250 Posted by: polynikes at December 20, 2012 04:14 PM (m2CN7)


Good point.  IIRC, the medic in the vid was knocked back or down, but he was also in a relaxed posture when he got hit.  Interestingly, after they tracked down and wounded the sniper, he's the one that provided treatment.

251 240 Bill H watch out or he'll tell you Fuck You

252

Posted by: Schrödinger's cat at December 20, 2012 04:18 PM (feFL6)

 

That's what I thought and that's sad.  Unfortunately though its reality and I can't really say its an over reaction.  I can argue both sides.  Still sad either way.

253

esn't your own good sense tell you that there is more force being imparted to your body by being shot 6 times than there is shooting 6 times?

 

 

 

Physics > good sense.

 

The difference is that, for the bullet, all of the force is concentrated in a small area, which generates high pressure (force/area) on the target. For the shooter, the same force is dispersed over a much greater area. But the force is exactly the same.

254 >>>"No offence". Words spoken by a coward in a lame attempt to diffuse their offence. Posted by: Bill H No, it's what you say when you are trying to have a serious conversation with a bunch of overwrought, self righteous assholes, like you, Bill

255 247 I was hoping someone could explain that-

256 Sheepdogs to the core. When it's my time to die, THAT'S how I want to go.

257 >>>251 240 Bill H watch out or he'll tell you Fuck You Posted by: DAve No, I think you two should fuck each other. That way you won't be so lonely on Christmas/NYE. Wear protection!

258 253 Right.  Which is why it knocks you down or makes your head explode.  Because it's not a slow appliocation of force evenly all over your body.

259 I feel like I've wandered into some lefty PC bullshit. Okay, now you can all attack me. Get it all out, tough guys.

Yeah, everyone that thinks you're an asshole is a lefty. Just like all those bitches in high school were a bunch of man hating dykes.

260 confronting shooter and shielding victims- heroic; it would be good to see these behaviors publicly and repeatedly praised.  the model for law enforcement response could stand to be changed from one that involves paramilitary style swat teams to police with hand guns immediately confronting  the shooter.  response time might be quicker and the shooters frequently seem to turn the gun on themselves when confronted. 

261 104 ---"... I read the other day that Columbine had both a security officer and a cop on the premises when it was attacked. But the security guy locked himself in the security office...." Posted by: junior at December 20, 2012 03:44 PM (UWFpX) And I think that is why we can say these women were truly heroes. They did not lock themselves away in a safe place (as I might have done.) They thought only of doing ANYTHING they could to save the children. May perpetual light shine upon them.

262 243  Yep.

263 Jay, understand completely. Watch youtube videos of people not clear on the concept of recoil and watch the firearm smack them between the eyes. If the gun comes back that hard, according to physics, the bullet will hit that hard. And if said bullet's force is stopped on the outside of the body and transfers ALL of it's kinetic energy at that point, it WILL hit like a baseball bat.

264 Every time I think about those two and what they did, I feel sad that such great people died. They can never come back. We have lost them. This thread is sad for a completely different reason, that being jerks like entropy and walkers try to apply their feeble armchair reasoning to real heroes. A lot of combat vets say that no one can tell what they will do when faced with hostile gunfire until they've actually experienced it. Well, these two had what it took to make the ultimate sacrifice. Can't find people braver than that.

265 Also, no kickback is caused by gas expanding inside the barrel. This is what propels the bullet because it has no where else to go, but it does not move the gun hardly at all. The gasses expanding outside the barrel cause most of the kickback. Much of that is gasses expanding sideways, which cancels itself out on both sides. Only a portion of the force becomes backwards recoil. No gun recoils as hard as it hits. No gun (hardly) recoils hard enough to pierce your chest with a bullet. Bullets do not bounce off, but the force of the recoil, even concentrated over a bullet-sized surface area, I doubt would be enough to be lethal.

266 This thread is sad for a completely different reason, that being jerks like entropy and walkers try to apply their feeble armchair reasoning to real heroes hyper-emotionalism which causes people to jump to retarded conclusions. FIFY.

267

Yes, the ladies are very honorable.  One might even say their acts were heroic.  But I am reminded of a Chris Rock schtick where he busts on brothers who want props for taking care of their children, having a job, etc. as if they are some sort of heroes.  It is what you are supposed to do.  There is nothing heroic about doing what you are supposed to do.  True heroes go well over what a normal person would be expected to do.  It is a very high bar.  I don't know exactly how high, but a reasonable person could argue that these to brave souls were not heros. 

 

I imagine that there are very similar debates/discussions within the military when deciding who might receive what honor. 

 

I see nothing wrong with a well reasoned discussion as to whether or not these two are heroes.

 

 

268 257  I won't be lonely on Xmas eve Walker... me and Bill H and all the homies will be pulling a train on your mom.  Thanks for your concern tho...

269

Posted by: rickb223 Let. It. Burn. at December 20, 2012 04:27 PM (GFM2b)

 

Yeah.... so I guess when I HIT someone with my fist, I should be the one who gets rocked back??? if this whole theory is correct?

270 >>>Yeah, everyone that thinks you're an asshole is a lefty. Just like all those bitches in high school were a bunch of man hating dykes.Posted by: Gristle Encased Head No, I said lefty PC bullshit. Like when people are making up facts and attacking anyone trying to speak rationale. Who witnessed the principal getting shot? Who witnessed Soto getting shot? Are you a dyke? Or, are you just still on a lefty PC rant and speaking for all dykes?

271 263 What part of rifle rounds making people's heads explode don't you understand?  If theory and reality conflict YOUR THEORY IS WRONG

272 >>>268 257I won't be lonely on Xmas eve Walker... me and Bill H and all the homies will be pulling a train on your mom. Thanks for your concern tho... Posted by: DAve She's dead. Necrophila is illegal. Is that the only way you can get laid? Fuck Bill. I heard he's a moaner.

273

236 Jay that's not accurate. Otherwise a heavy rifle and a light one would have the same recoil. They don't.

 

Dave, no, they wouldn't have the same recoil. You're applying a given force (to accelerate the bullet), and asking about the acceleration of the rifle and shooter. Since F = ma, the greater the mass being accelerated, the less the acceleration (for a given force).

 

F = ma = MA, where M and A are the mass and acceleration of the bullet, and m and a are the mass and acceleration of the rifle + shooter. If the bullet weighs maybe 10 grams, and the rifle + shooter weighs maybe 100 kg, the bullet experiences 10,000 times more acceleration, but exactly the same force as the rifle/shooter.

274 True heroes go well over what a normal person would be expected to do. It is a very high bar. I don't know exactly how high, but a reasonable person could argue that these to brave souls were not heros. Posted by: Sophistahick at December 20, 2012 04:28 PM (UhXzR)

It is relative.

A solider or Marine is expected to sacrifice their life for the team.

A civilian is not even remotely expected to do sacrifice their life for another.

That's what makes them heroes, even using your definition.

275 I wonder if these are the kinds of comments Breitbart liked about this site?

276 >>>There is nothing heroic about doing what you are supposed to do. By that standard there is no such thing as a hero. By the way, I don't recall "sacrificing yourself so that others may live" is part of the job description of a teacher.

277 265 Thx entropy.  I don't know the explanations for what I know to be true

278 "So that others may live" is the motto of USAF parajumpers, not elementary teachers. Please think a little before you shoot your mouth off.

279 For the shooter, the same force is dispersed over a much greater area. But the force is exactly the same. The shooter does not throw the bullet. The bullet explodes from a position in front of the shooter. Half of the force of that explosion is heading in the opposite direction already. Recoil is caused in part because it's the 1 direction in which the direction of the blast doesn't cancel leaving the barrel, and in part acceleration of the bullet, which has about 1/150th the mass of the gun.

280 Once the discussion about the dynamics of firearms is resolved, would anyone like to discuss friction and aerodynamic heating? That is always a good topic. [/]

281 Are you a dyke? Or, are you just still on a lefty PC rant and speaking for all dykes?

Am I a dyke? I'd have you ask your mom, but she's got a dental dam in her mouth right now thank you very much.

282 273  Want to know something trippy?  If jimiray was here he'd be able to school us all.  Say what you will but he knew physics like a son of a bitch

283 Both those articles have links and pop-ups for you to sign on to efforts to ban "assault weapons." No links to ban public madness, or the herding of targets into defense-free zones, or to ban GE vice-presidents under the congressional hammer from drugging their sons with known psychogenic agents. Seems biased, to me.

Damned if I'd throw them a link. I'd just steal the pictures.

284 I usually read comments here when I have lunch today I am having late lunch, pizza after reading about homemade here yesterday. What is wrong with everyone today? All I see Are FUs back & forth. These ladies tried to protect the kids! Go bitch in another thread.

285 >>>267 Yes, the ladies are very honorable. One might even say their acts were heroic. But I am reminded of a Chris Rock schtick where he busts on brothers who want props for taking care of their children, having a job, etc.as if they are some sort of heroes. It is what you are supposed to do. There is nothing heroic about doing what you are supposed to do. True heroes go well over what a normal person would be expected to do. It is a very high bar. I don't know exactlyhow high, but a reasonable person could argue that these to brave souls were not heros. I imagine that there are very similar debates/discussions within the military when deciding who might receive what honor. I see nothing wrong with a well reasoned discussion as to whether or not these two are heroes. Posted by: Sophistahick I think it was beyond their job description. But they stayed and took some action that saved others lives. I suspect that the principal was taken by surprised. Yet, people keep saying she "lunged" for the gun and Soto jumped in front of a bullet. No one has said who witnessed this. Again, I think flipping on the intercom switch and helping kids escape are the heroic acts -- not the so called imaginary jumping in front of bullets.

286

The shooter does not throw the bullet.

 

 

Actually, it wouldn't matter if he did throw the bullet, the same principle would apply: he would experience the same backward force as the frontwards force he exerted.

 

Half of the force of that explosion is heading in the opposite direction already.

 

 

Exactly. The forces are precisely equal, just opposite in direction. That's the point.

287

Using your body as a shield to cover a child is by definition a heroic act.  Especially if its not your child.

288

Posted by: Walkers! at December 20, 2012 04:29 PM (jWwDJ)

___

I had the same question about the witnesses. The links posted with CBD's article state that in Soto's case, the responders got the info from children she'd helped to safety. In the principal's case, it was a vice principal who was with her when she was shot. The VP took a shot to the leg but was able to get away.

 

I'm still wondering about video surveillance. If the school's security had just been upgraded, where were the cameras?

 

there's a lot about this story that makes no sense.

289 Regarding physics,  the type of round has one of the, if not the largest effects on transfer of energy to target. 

290 286 Yeah but the force on the shooter is spread over a much bigger area.  F=ma sez that means more localized force.  How do you explain the exploding heads? Or do you deny it happens?

291 >>>there's a lot about this story that makes no sense. ... ... ... you want video proof now? well, there's always one...or two or three in this case...

292

Yeah.... so I guess when I HIT someone with my fist, I should be the one who gets rocked back??? if this whole theory is correct?

 

 

You are rocked back, it's just that if you're an experienced boxer, to throw a punch you brace your feet. Think about it: what would happen if you threw a punch while you were wearing roller skates?

293 >>>I had the same question about the witnesses. The links posted with CBD's article state that in Soto's case, the responders got the info from children she'd helped to safety. In the principal's case, it was a vice principal who was with her when she was shot. The VP took a shot to the leg but was able to get away. I'm still wondering about video surveillance. If the school's security had just been upgraded, where were the cameras? there's a lot about this story that makes no sense. Posted by: kallisto Thanks. I wonder if they will ever release a full report.

294 289 How? Based on penetration?

295 292 What about the exploding head?  What about hydrostatic shock?

296

How? Based on penetration?

 

Yes, Does the bullet mushroom and how, or does it maintain its shape and bounce around or go straight though? 

297 296  Good. I agree. Jay, if I shot an AR on roller skates will I go backwards @ 3200fps like the bullet does?

298

286 Yeah but the force on the shooter is spread over a much bigger area.

 

Yep, and also the force is applied to a much greater mass.

 

 

F=ma sez that means more localized force.

 

You're talking about pressure, which is force per unit area. The force is the same; the pressure depends on the area. That's why a 100 lb. woman in high heels can punch through some linoleum. The force of her footstep is her mass being accelerated by gravity. But that force applied to, say, a square centimeter, is an enormous pressure.

 

How do you explain the exploding heads? Or do you deny it happens?

 

 

Of course it happens. But see the high heel case above. Exactly the same principle.

299 Dave you weigh much more than the bullet...so no 3200 fps for you.

300

296 Good. I agree. Jay, if I shot an AR on roller skates will I go backwards @ 3200fps like the bullet does?

 

 

Only if you have the same mass as the bullet!

301 240 Bill H watch out or he'll tell you Fuck You Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 04:22 PM (XDC0v) Frankly DAve, after the last week I've had, his words mean little and his stature even less. If that's "internet tough guy" to him, so be it. If he's like most of the people online, his online persona is nothing like the churchmouse he is in meatspace.

302 Actually, it wouldn't matter if he did throw the bullet, the same principle would apply: he would experience the same backward force as the frontwards force he exerted. No. The force applied sideways propels the bullet. That force is resisted by the walls of the barrel causing the force to be applied to the bullet as acceleration. You feel absolutely no recoil from this force going into the bullet. It's the internal pressure of the gun. The internal pressure of the gun is equal in all directions and does not move the gun in any direction. It only moves the gun when it blows out the open end. When it blows out the open end, you are no longer propelling the bullet at all. The bullet is gone from the equation, taking most of it's force from the increase in internal pressure, which is not directional. Now you just have the unbalanced portion of the force of the bullet accelerating forward and the force of the gasses blowing out the end, neither of which has nearly the mass or inertia of the gun. If you are using properly sized ammunition, most of the force of the expansion is already gone (into the bullet), and from what is left, it expands in every direction after leaving the barrel. Up and down, right and left cancel out, and you feel only the portion going backward and forward. Exactly. The forces are precisely equal, just opposite in direction. That's the point. There are more than 2 directions. The force of the blast moving left and right is also applied to the bullet propulsion, but there is no recoil from that and the shooter absorbs none of it.

303 298  OK... what you're saying is that I was conflating pressure with force.  Protip to AoS residents: this is how you have a "normal conversation".

304

There is nothing heroic about doing what you are supposed to do.

By that standard there is no such thing as a hero.

 

Not true.  Most people do not join the military, so that very act is heroic.

 

Alternately, because a two year old shares a toy, he is not heroic even though it is not expected.

305

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 20, 2012 04:40 PM (4u2LN)

 

And when you shoot, you are expecting recoil....

 

 

306 As an addendum DAve, I LOVE, positively LOVE my 1911 clone. One shot from it last year dead stopped an attack on my parents by a 110 lb put bull last year.

307

I know this stuff is tricky, and some of it seems counter-intuitive, but the key is to distinguish clearly between force, mass, acceleration, and (as discussed above) pressure.

 

Force and pressure are particularly easy to conflate.

 

Here's another example: heavy car hits light car perfectly head on. Does heavy car keep going? No. It bounces backwards, just not as far as the light car does. The cars bounce backward a distance in proportion to their masses.

308 299 Unless fps means faps per second.  In which case I'm WAY faster than that-

309 >>>Up and down, right and left cancel out, and you feel only the portion going backward and forward. So does the bullet, smart guy. How you typed "up and down, right and left cancel out" and still made the conclusion you did is a question for the ages.

310 Alternately, because a two year old shares a toy, he is not heroic even though it is not expected.

Posted by: Sophistahick at December 20, 2012 04:48 PM (UhXzR)

 

 

------------------------------------------

 

 

BUT, if he has five adults and three or four other kids around him saying that he HAS to share that toy, and the two year old says  no, that's heroic.

311

Posted by: entropy at December 20, 2012 04:48 PM (YUttk)

 

Yup... which is why I shoot a Compensated .45... it directs part of the expanding gas leaving the barrel to compensate for muzzle rise...

312 >>>Not true. Most people do not join the military, so that very act is heroic. Tell that to an average DI at boot. You're going to get an earful about "college money." Military appreciation is good. Military worship is embarrassing.

313

And when you shoot, you are expecting recoil....

 

 

Yep. I didn't have time to respond to the comment above about people knocked over, but you've alluded to the reason why the shootee but not the shooter is sometimes knocked over: he was off-balance when hit.

 

If the shooter was balancing on one foot on a roller skate when he fired, he'd fall over too. But he was braced, and balanced, because he knew he what was going to happen. The shootee didn't.

314 The police detectives are not giving out much Info. I don't know why. They can't try the LOSER who killed them. I wonder if they are trying to Keep things so that the children that got away Don't hear gory details.

315

BUT, if he has five adults and three or four other kids around him saying that he HAS to share that toy, and the two year old says no, that's heroic.

 

If they are bullying him to share, I agree!

316

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at December 20, 2012 04:40 PM (kZ1LX)

___

Where did I demand video proof?

I accepted the witness stories. I'm wondering why there isn't video. If there is any, it hasn't been mentioned. According to the story, the principal who died was very security conscious. My workplace keeps adding more cameras just to keep track of inventory. Children's lives are more valuable than machine shop inventory.

 

Why is everybody so uptight?

317

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at December 20, 2012 04:52 PM (kZ1LX)

 

The force is caused by expanding gas... which propels and accelerates the bullet down the barrel...

 

While traveling down the barrel, the only way for it to expand is to force the bullet down the bore.... BUT... once it reaches the end of the barrel, it can expand over a much greater area... which is his point....

318 OT

Jake Tapper quits ABC for anchor position at CNN.

319 She's dead. Necrophila is illegal. Is that the only way you can get laid? Fuck Bill. I heard he's a moaner. Posted by: Walkers! at December 20, 2012 04:31 PM (jWwDJ) Well, my day has brightened. I must have smacked a nerve.

320

Why is everybody so uptight?

 

Don't lump me in to this.  I was merely trying to provide a way out for everyone to save face.

321 Only if you have the same mass as the bullet!

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 20, 2012 04:47 PM (4u2LN)

How about different mass but same priest?

322

How about different mass but same priest?

 

 

Doesn't change anything, Charlie. It's just the mass of the ass!

323 >>>While traveling down the barrel, the only way for it to expand is to force the bullet down the bore.... BUT... once it reaches the end of the barrel, it can expand over a much greater area... which is his point.... Any expansion "up-down left-right" is not propelling the bullet. Or the shooter. Anything that makes the bullet move is going to be felt by the shooter.

324 321 I've enjoyed this discussion of the physics of shooting so much that i copied all the posts into a Word document so I can fap to it later

325 If the shooter was balancing on one foot on a roller skate when he fired, he'd fall over too. But he was braced, and balanced, because he knew he what was going to happen. The shootee didn't.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 20, 2012 04:54 PM (4u2LN)

 

The original debate was that the shootee would not be knocked over and you only see that in movies.  That is false for the many reasons stated above and not contrary to physics.

326

Not to throw fuel on the fire (oh who am I kidding, yes that is exactly what I intend)

 

Teachers are tasked with the physical well being of their students while in school.  As a matter of fact it is their first role in educating.  They are to provide a safe learning environment.

 

 

327 These teachers taught their students and us all how to act in the face of danger.

328 For those asking about witnesses, the Vice Principle, Natalie Hammond was  with Dawn Hochsprung and Mary Sherlach when they were killed. Hammond was shot in the leg, foot and hand, but managed to crawl behind a door as the shooter made his way down the hall.
http://tinyurl.com/d69z26d

329 319 Bill the first rule of tag team is you have to slap my hand

330 So does the bullet, smart guy. How you typed "up and down, right and left cancel out" and still made the conclusion you did is a question for the ages. Because the bullet is accelerated by a rise in internal pressure. The gun is kicked back by the gasses leaving the barrel. The gasses leaving the barrel are already mostly expanded, and they expand in an omnidirectional way to only exposes the shooter to a portion. The unbalanced portion. The bullet however is propelled by the gases expanding inside the barrel, raising internal pressure. So in other words, left/right force goes into the bullet but not the recoil.

331 323  Actually it does because it's in a closed cylinder.  Bernoulli's principle or Pascal's Law.  See I went to college!!!

332

e force is caused by expanding gas... which propels and accelerates the bullet down the barrel...

While traveling down the barrel, the only way for it to expand is to force the bullet down the bore.... BUT... once it reaches the end of the barrel, it can expand over a much greater area... which is his point....

 

 

Here's a thought experiment. Suppose the bomb squad explodes a bomb in one of those sealed reinforced containers that entirely contains the explosion. Recoil? Nope. Because for every force in one direction, there's an equal and opposite one in the opposite direction.

 

Now if the container fails, and the internal gases escape in one direction, then the container recoils in the opposite direction. It's the way rocket ships move in the vacuum of space.

333 331 See my explanation was like the special ed version of entropy's

334 See also, bowling pins. They weigh a little less than 4 pounds, and if you've ever shot one with a .45 you know the bullet doesn't fully penetrate, so 100% of the energy is absorbed by the pin. http://youtu.be/waiuBwUaEqM

335

Actually it does because it's in a closed cylinder. Bernoulli's principle or Pascal's Law. See I went to college!!!

 

 

Maybe we shoulda made the closed cylinder a keg ...

336 Any expansion "up-down left-right" is not propelling the bullet. Or the shooter. Yes it is. It is before the bullet leaves the barrel, which is where it gets all it's force. The force of the explosion resisted by left and right barrel walls goes straight into the bullet where it becomes velocity. Only a portion of this force ends up going backwards toward the shooter.

337 Incidentally this discussion of bullet physics is now up to 5 pages in Word format.  Guess this is what Breitbart was talking about after all.

338

See also, bowling pins. They weigh a little less than 4 pounds, and if you've ever shot one with a .45 you know the bullet doesn't fully penetrate, so 100% of the energy is absorbed by the pin.

 

 

Damn, you go to a tough bowling alley. We just roll a ball toward the pins.

339 Here's another example: heavy car hits light car perfectly head on. Does heavy car keep going? No. It bounces backwards, just not as far as the light car does. The cars bounce backward a distancein proportion to their masses. Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 20, 2012 04:51 PM (4u2LN) Right. inversely, it also means that the heavy car can do more damage simply because of kinetic energy,especially if the object is fixed. That's one of the reasons why the Smart does as well as it does in a fixed barrier crash test- it has less mass to drive into the object. Less mass=less kinetic energy=less damage/opportunity for injury.

340 334 I've shot many bowling pins and hope someday to hit one

341 >> Damn, you go to a tough bowling alley. We just roll a ball toward the pins. Shoe rentals are right next to "ears and eyes".

342 329 319 Bill the first rule of tag team is you have to slap my hand Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 05:03 PM (XDC0v) I do feel a little like Sheamus right now.....

343 How is all this affected by the fact that the dude you shoot is mostly made up of water?: I understand that the majority of injury from rifle rounds comes from hydrostatic shock.

344

[Posted by: Bill H at December 20, 2012 05:11 PM (3sZO1)

 

 

Yep.

 

Also, the heavy car will decelerate more slowly because of its greater mass, sparing its occupants some deceleration trauma. Same force, larger mass, smaller deceleration (negative acceleration).

345 >> I've shot many bowling pins and hope someday to hit one I shot a lot of IPSC when I was younger, and pin shooting is pretty tough. Mainly because it's possible ... common actually ... to hit one and have it just wobble or slide back on the target stand a little. The pin has to fall for the shot to count. Stages are timed, and you have about as many pins as you do rounds in the gun, so you better make every shot count.

346 Thank you all for a very civil and informative discussion!

347 Look at it this way. When you shoot a bow and arrow, or a crossbow, you do not get recoil equal to the force of the kickback. That energy is coming from the bow itself, the tension in the bow. That bow tension force propels the arrow forward but it does not propel the bow backward by an equal amount. It is coming from the tension in the bow, and most of that force goes into the arrow moving forward. Only a small portion kicks the bow backward, because a great deal of the equal opposing force is the tension being released.

348 345 I'm too scared to shoot IPSC... I don't want to see a Youtube video of all the other shooters laughing at me...

349 >>>The force of the explosion resisted by left and right barrel walls goes straight into the bullet where it becomes velocity. When the expansion of hot gas "goes straight into the bullet" it is motion on the forward-backward axis... otherwise it wouldn't do anything.

350

How is all this affected by the fact that the dude you shoot is mostly made up of water?: I understand that the majority of injury from rifle rounds comes from hydrostatic shock.

 

 

The target and its composition don't make any difference to the discussion of forces above; after all, you experience the same recoil whether you hit something or not.

 

I don't know anything about hydrostatic shock, but I would guess that the impact of a bullet causes a compression wave through the victim that is transmitted through the water (which is largely incompressible) until it hits something squishable (e.g., lungs, heart) which the compression wave will crush.

 

Just a guess though.

351

Physics reminds us that the world is a wonderful place.

 

352 351... for me to POOP on!!!

353 Also, the heavy car will decelerate more slowly because of its greater mass, sparing its occupants some deceleration trauma. Same force, larger mass, smaller deceleration (negative acceleration). Posted by: Jay Guevara at December 20, 2012 05:14 PM (4u2LN) The old "body in motion tends to stay in motion..." rule. I'm not much on the laws of physics- I never studied law- but I've seen enough and felt enough to get what you're saying.

354 When the expansion of hot gas "goes straight into the bullet" it is motion on the forward-backward axis... Internally, met by decreasing pressure, not backwards velocity.

355 >> I'm too scared to shoot IPSC... I don't want to see a Youtube video of all the other shooters laughing at me... I did this way before YouTube. Plus I started when I was 16 or so and fearless. Plus I usually outshot most of the grown men on the course, so there's that. One thing I'll never forget is a time we had an H&K rep and one of their pros at a match giving a demonstration. He was shooting the P7M13 (that little squeeze-cocker 9mm) and hitting small (8"?) steel plates at about 60 yards. With every shot. I could barely even see the damned things.

356 355 Have your eyes started to suck yet?  In the last 3 years mine have gone to hell

357 I could barely even see the damned things.

Posted by: Andy at December 20, 2012 05:26 PM (C/NnJ)

My first skeet instructor could shoot in the teens...from his hip.

There are some people who are just really, really good.

358 Oh, and this is why I love you morons. Yelling FUCK YOU! at each other one minute and talking terminal ballistics of the .45 ACP round the next.

359 348 345 I'm too scared to shoot IPSC... I don't want to see a Youtube video of all the other shooters laughing at me... Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 05:18 PM (XDC0v) I've never shot bowling pins or indian clubs, but it would seem to me that if you shot just below the neck, you would knock that pin down. Fulcrum, leverage of force and all that. Possibly not, IDK. The strongest feature of a pin is it's shape. Hell, I would buy a batch just to lay out and practice on. You gotta start somewhere.

360 358  Yeah I'd say this thread got redeemed... incidentally the ballistics discussion turned out to be 6 pages...so far

361 Yeah, the eyes are starting to go a little. They're fine most of the time, but when I'm tired they start getting blurry. Of course that could be the scotch, too.

362 >> it would seem to me that if you shot just below the neck IIRC that's correct. You're screwed if you hit it too low or too high.

363 362 Why too high? Other than that's the thin part?

364 >>>Internally, met by decreasing pressure, not backwards velocity. Decreasing pressure in the chamber at a later time does not address the force that pushes the bullet forward at that moment in time. Just as it pushes the bullet forward, it also pushes backward.

365 Posted by: DAve at December 20, 2012 05:27 PM (XDC0v)

Try something (rifle) with a peep sight. That works for me.

But as my eyes age it seems to force me to focus on the front sight of my pistols, which of course is the right way to do it.

366 You're screwed if you hit it too low or too high.

Posted by: Andy at December 20, 2012 05:31 PM (C/NnJ)

The very top must be tempting though, with that nice long lever.

Too bad it's tiny.

367 365 I'm pretty much all optics these days- that's how bad they are- but thanks for the suggestion-

368 363 362 Why too high? Other than that's the thin part? Bullet often passes through without shedding enough energy to knock it over.

369 New thread incidentally...

370 Haha two threads ago...

371 Please note I have not even gotten into the fact that it matters how quickly the bullet accelerates and decelerates. If the bullet decelerates more quickly than it accelerates, it makes a big difference. Remember that force is mass times acceleration, and acceleration is velocity squared - per second per second. So if the bullet stops in 2 seconds, it applies much less force but over a longer time than if it stops in 1 second. 100 feet per second for 2 seconds is equal on paper to 200 feet per second for 1 second in terms of total force exerted. But if a mass has enough inertial energy to resist 150 feet per second per second, 100 feet per second for 2 seconds will not move it, but 200 feet per second for 1 second will. I think. Maybe. I do know that if the bullet stops quicker, it will apply a more inertial impact force. If the bullet stops slower, the force gets bled in other ways. Shoot a barrel of water, the barrel will not move at all. The water inside will move and will absorb just about all of the force, the barrel will hardly budge and just start bleeding. But shoot an equivalent weight hunk of steel, you will send the steel flying. I think. I don't shoot anything much besides paper. In one situation, the water has more flex so it flexes and bleeds energy off the bullet, turning it into heat or cavity bubbles and hydrostatic shockwaves. The metal does not give so much, so more of the energy turns into momentum. Energy is always equal, but the thing you have to consider is it's not some simple 2 sided equation. It gets converted in different ways, and flies off in odd places. Some of the energy ends up being converted to light, some propels the sound shockwaves through the air. A bullet would be much less likely to knock a person over if they weren't wearing ceramic armor, because it will penetrate further, and perhaps overpenetrate and send half the energy flying out the other side of his body.

372 If it were a simple matter of uni-directional balanced force, you could cup your hands and hit the primer and shoot bullets out of your hands, because they would just fly out the open part. You'll blow your damn hands off.

373 "Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. " ~ C.S. Lewis

374 I really don't know about .45ACP handgun rounds, but a .50 cal sniper rifle will pick you up and twist you around in the air. Those bullets are meant to kill lightly armored engines. Check out the Rag-Doll Physics on the goat at 32 seconds: tinyurl.com/bs89azf

375 If the recoil were equal to the impact, you should be able to stick a cylinder in a loaded barrel and pull the trigger and hold the bullet in place, or maybe kick back 1' on each side. The assumption here, if the force is equal, is that if you are braced for it, you can hold off the force of a bullet spread on the surface area of your hands. You can hold the gun on one side precisely because you cannot hold the gun on the other side. That's where 90%+ of the force is going, the gun would blow off your thumbs and keep going if it had equal to the force of the bullet in recoil.

376 375  This guy quit this thread too early: http://tinyurl.com/2vxlhrc

377 I'm wondering why there isn't video. A school close to me, which a person close to me 'visits' every day has almost the exact layout and security as Newtown. Yes, they have security cameras, but they are 'real-time' only; which means as long as someone is sitting in front of the monitor and watching they have value. There is no recording ability for forensic re-creation of what has happened. Which the person close to me discovered when she confronted the Principal about getting the shit kicked out of her every day by a A/A 'spectrum' student and said to the Principal, 'look at the tape'. The Principal had to fess up at that point.

378 When Roger Clemons throws a fastball at Mike Piazzas head... It hurts Mike Piazzas head more than it does Roger Clemons arm. Here ends your firearms physics lesson, idiots.

379 378 Hey jimi is that you?

380 Now, shooting a gun or firing a crossbow in a zero-G environment, in a vacuum with no air pressure and no friction, the bullet will go in one direction and you will go in another purely as a function of your difference in mass. In this case, both moving objects (shooter with gun, and bullet) will have equal energy but the bullet will be far more concentrated mass-wised, with higher overall velocity. But that is because in outer space, if you fire a gun you don't brace yourself and stay where you are with just a bit of flinch. You go flying off in the opposite direction like a rocket ship.

381 Dayum. ItÂ’s really unfortunate when Darwin comes for soldiersÂ… but hitting a live round? COME ON.. how does he think his machine gun fires? That was my first impression. Dude? A .50 cal cartridge is not a hammer?

382 381  He got banned and couldn't read the comments fot this thread

383 Just as it pushes the bullet forward, it also pushes backward. This is incorrect. It does not push backwards until it has left the barrel. While the bullet is in the barrel it is like a sealed barrel. The bullet moving through the barrel does not move the gun backwards. It just moves the bullet REALLY REALLY fast. Because the force of the blast in all directions is being concentrated 90% (fake number I made up to mean "mostly") in 1 direction.

384 Consider: When you shoot the bullet in a revolver, the shell stays in place, the bullet flies out. When you fire a bullet in your hand, the bullet does not fly off in one direction and the casing in another at the speed of a bullet. Instead, the bullet flies in 1 direction, about 5 feet. The casing flies in the opposite direction, about 5 feet. And your hand flies in all the rest of the directions, about 5 feet. Nothing goes flying down range.

385 Dave, Did you see those goats fly through the air in torn pieces?

386 385 Nope.  Where?

387 Link in comment 374

388 387  Jeezus!!! That's what I was talking about-

389 You too Yoshi, check out the goats I found on youtube, #374. One of those suckers doesn't even land on camera. They don't get knocked over, they "rag-doll" through the air.

390 He films it in slo-mo too so you can really appreciate the 'dead weight' rag doll twisting effect.

391 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

392 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

393 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

394 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

395 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

396 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

397 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

398 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

399 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

400 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

401 DAve, since you just posted, I'll assume you'll see this. Link for you to read before you try your AK powered skating attempt:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

402 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

403 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

404 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

405 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

406 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

407 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

408 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

409 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

410 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

411 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

412 387 Hey Entropy I just asked a real infantryman about hydrostatic shock in the "War on Women" thread.  Come join us!  Thanks for all your explanations here-

413 Here's another way to think about if anyone still doesn't believe me. Imagine you were pointing a gun at a guy, aiming to shoot him, and he was pointing at you, and shot first. Right as your bracing yourself to fire the gun but before you quite pull the trigger, the other guy's bullet hits the gun right in your hand. What do you think is gonna happen? Shrapnel, bleeding, maybe missing fingers and a broken gun in pieces? Or a normal average kick back sort of impact?

414 Haha entropy you're on a roll