1
nerd-centric

2 Pathfinder is a knock-off of 3rd Ed. D&D, no shit, the stuff I learn at this smart blog.

3 BUSH!!!!!!!!!

4 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant
/alwaysOnTopic

5 I never got into the whole roll playing game thing, so this really means a whole lot of nothing to me.

But thanks for posting.

6 Is this why you ate that gallon of Ice Cream and got sick the other night?   Because you weren't invited to the roll out presser?

7 Agreed. I never put 2 and 2 together. but 3rd was way better. plus it enabled us to pass a lot of lazy time on a sunday afternoon while underway. only so much you can do at sea on a Navy ship in february off the coast of Korea.

8
in this thread...

you expose yourself as a nerd

9 There already IS a dungeons and dragons MMO (run by the same folks who run the lord of the rings MMO).

10 I just... know about it. None of your business how.


Ace doesn't want you to know that he was banging one of them blacked out goth chicks for about 2 months.

11 >>>There already IS a dungeons and dragons MMO (run by the same folks who run the lord of the rings MMO). There is? What's it called?

12 Very compelling

13 I think Ace's mom got him Druid pjs for Christmas.

14
I just wished they made video games like Full Throttle.
Not this crap like Call of Duty and WoW.

15 Shill! Hypocrite!  Gary Gygax supported abortions before he was against them!  The D&D Tax is really a fee!

16 Pbbt.  Whatever.  F.A.T.A.L. > DnD.

17 Dungeons and Dragons Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

You mean like the one Turbine developed at the same time they developed Lord of the Rings Online? That has never been a serious player in MMOs despite the fact is was one of the best free ones for a while.

Well keep holding out.

18 Actually, as "table-top Gauntlet" I like D&D4 better than D&D3 (or 3.5, which is the rule-set Pathfinder actually uses).  I could get into all the reasons... but meh.

The fact is, however much my friends and I like D&D4, a whole lot of people don't, and WotC (well, Hasbro, really) would be dumb not to try to increase their market share again.

The big problem though, as I see it, is the entry cost.  I can get the Pathfinder rulebook on PDF from drivethrurpg.com for about $20.00 (last time I checked).  Hasbro won't do that with D&D, so even if I buy it on PDF, I'm paying nearly full price for it.  And Pathfinder gives me the whole rule-set in one book- not spread out over 3 more-or-less required books.

19 When are we going to have a good emo thread?

20

I think Ace's mom got him Druid pjs for Christmas.

 

No, my little Ace likes cartoons on his jammies.

21 There is? What's it called?

Dungeons & Dragons Online.

22 4th edition was a big step in the wrong direction, so I don't even care what the next edition is going to be like.

Just play Hero System instead. I'll run a game at my house.

23 There is? What's it called?

DDO

Dungeons and Dragons Online. I know, huge investment in coming up with an original name. But it's free. Have Fun.

24 Alright, who wants a swirlie?

25 Oh that makes sense. Okay, I'll just delete that.

26 I'll just put on my robe and wizard hat...

27 There is? What's it called?

Posted by: ace at January 10, 2012 05:32 PM (nj1bB)

It's cryptically named "Dungeons and Dragons Online," just to throw you off the scent....

28 Pathfinder is a great system for those who like torture porn as a major part of their game, absolutely useless for any group with kids (such as mine). Also, the MMORPG has been up and running for years. It's called Ebberon Unlimited. No, I'm not a geekgirl why do you ask?

29 Anyone else getting a huge moving gif to the left which makes this near impossible to read?

30 I've played both.  And they both have charm.  And neither of them is 1/10th as awesome a Hero system.  Plus in Hero, you can play superheroes.  Which is what you're trying to do with D&D heroes anyway:  make your toons into superheroes.

31 Just play Hero System instead. I'll run a game at my house.

I'd rather not do algebra to make my character, thanks.

HERO (are they still on FRED, or have they moved to 6th ed, yet?) is way too crunchy for me.

32 Your options re pancake making have been reduced substantially by this post.

33 http://tinyurl.com/75xkszm

34 You rocked my pocket protector!

35 I can't even keep up with it all with my slide rule. And I've lost my bag of holding anyway.

36

Nobel Prize Jury sock off

 

Oh, and there's a 6th edition, which sucks.  FREd is the way to go.

37 Any nerd post should require a picture of Kaley Cuoco.

38 Are you shitting me?  A couple hundred word post on D&D?  I'd rather be locked in a room with JeffB. and a bottle of vodka and a carton of ciggies.

39 Also, isn't there some primary or something going on today?

40 A free game probably isn't what they have their ultimate sights set on.

41

Posted by: laceyunderalls at January 10, 2012 05:36 PM (pLTLS)

 

You wouldn't say that if you saw Ace in his Mage garb.

42

I'll just put on my robe and wizard hat...

 

Senator Byrd?

43 I have a closet full of (A)D&D stuff. 

I have no idea how it got there.  Mice, probably. 

But, yeah, I know the 4th edition story (so I married a mouse, sue me!).  My mouse probably won't invest in any new stuff, but I think he misses Dragon Magazine. 

44 they just want to keep the IP alive and viable for the inevitable series Hollywood of movies.

There, FIFY

I mean, "Battleship"?  Really.

And I loved the old DragonLance modules and books.   When I was 12.

45 Truman, when there's news, there's news. I'll post a speculation thread if you like.

46 I'm LARPing as someone who knows anything, but aren't there already million Forgotten Realms MMOs? Isn't that technically D&D?

47

I'll be damned if I understood a single word of this post. Looks like English but I can't make heads or tails of it.

48 D&D Online flopped hard and they had to go free to play to attract an player base. though they have been pretty successful running the game using micro transactions to nickle and dime their players.

49 THANKFULLY my mouse never got into miniatures, so that's something. 

50

I'll post a speculation thread if you like.

 

Can you warm up that speculation before my exam?

51 A free game probably isn't what they have their ultimate sights set on.

There's also (as mentioned) Eberron Online, which isn't free (I think).

But, frankly, the whole franchise started circling the toilet bowl (from a community cred standpoint) when Hasbro bought Wizards of the Coast.  There were enough people who weren't happy when WotC bought TSR.

52 Ahhh. I'm a D10 Call Of Cthulhu guy myself. I can't get excited about another D20 fantasy game.

53 I've been gaming since I was a wee sprout, and my main bookshelf in my house? RPGs. Now I'm 30, and I have a group of gamers that range from folks my age down to teenagers just getting into the hobby (and even run a game or two for friends and their kids when I break out Toon). When we do play, we play old games. Paranoia, Cyberpunk 2020, Morrow Project. Occasionally we'll play a newer "niche" game or some D+D 3rd edition. But none of us have bought most newer games. Why? Its not that we don't have money to spend. Its just that in the old days you bought a book for 30 bucks. It had some pretty pictures, some art, was a few hundred pages, and you were set. D+D's always had the 3 books, but even then you're looking at most at 25 bucks per. Now, simple rulebooks run 50 dollars. They're all Grimdarkgrimdark or Anime. There's no stylized art. Gone are the goofy monsters. There's no heart anymore. Gamers aren't buying because these companies are giving us shit product, and the sooner the gaming economy collapses and the big boys die, the sooner we can get back to smaller upstart gaming companies making good games again. And yes, I'm a total geek, what of it?

54 Mrs. North loves her some miniatures.  Damn.  We have hundreds of them.

55 Your post does answer a question I had though. I just got the kids the Harvesters RPG from Troll Lords Games and was noticing that a lot of stuff was ripped straight tron D&D, just with some serious editing issues. I was wondering if they were going to have trouble but I guess that open liscense means no.

56 Ahhh. I'm a D10 Call Of Cthulhu guy myself. I can't get excited about another D20 fantasy game.

I believe in the Right Tool for the Right Job.

If I want good Super Heros, I'll do the old Marvel FACERIP system, or Mutants & Masterminds.  For Fantasy, D&D is probably the best out there- Pathfinder is good, but 3.5 was too crunchy for me, I like that D&D4 is much more streamlined (which is part of what some people hate about it, I'll grant).  For Sci-Fi... it depends on the setting.  Nothing can do Star Wars like the old West End Games D6 version, for instance.

57 All of these games suck unless they have separate hit points for individual body areas, like TopSecret (for an RPG) or DeusEx (for video game). Stabbing somebody repeatedly in the toe shouldn't kill them.

58

This is like hanging out with a bunch of climbers.  I don't know what the hell you all are talking about.

59 Gay. And nerdy.

60 Allen, you really ought to get FREd and a couple of source books.  You will never play Marvel again.  And this is from a guy who has alll the FACERIP stuff too

61
FPS are the only fun games.

But I have decent hand-eye coordination and blood lust, something most AOS geeks lack.

62

Wizards Of the Coast:  We are announcing dev on 5.0 today.

Fans: So you are admitting 4.0 was a colossal failure that destroyed the game and fractured gamers into a thousand pieces?

Wizards:  In a word:  yes.  4.0 was a huge mistake, and lots of folks said so at the time, and we said go soak your head, and buy what we tell you to buy.  You are gonna play it, and you are gonna like it.  But in the end, all the detractors were exactly right.  We broke the game, gutted it and ripped out itÂ’s soul.  We would have put its soul in a Magic Jar, but 4.0 rules stripped that spell out because itÂ’s a story device, and not useful in combat.  We are now sorry, so please come back to us, because after all we still have the name “dungeons & dragons”.  We are the brand.

Fans:  Uh Huh. 

Wizards:  You see because we broke the game so badly, and have dismal sales figures, we have been forced to lay off most of our developers, so we are asking you the fans, to actually do all the work of developing the new rules.

Fans:  Uh Huh.  Pathfinder already did that.

Wizards:  But wait.  Pathfinder is really Version 3.75.  You could help us build Version 5.  ThatÂ’s a full 1.25 versions better!

Fans:  There is a little saying that conveys a lot of wisdom:  DonÂ’t fix what ainÂ’t broke. 

Wizards:  But Hasbro, a public company owns us.  We have to keep tinkering to feed the profit machine.

Fans:  Did you ever stop to think how pissed off your eight customers who did buy all your 4^th edition garbage will feel when they find out you stuck them with an admittedly dead edition that is abandoned after less then 3 years, when all other editions averaged over 10?

Wizards: Eight sheep?  They will line up again to be shorn.

Fans:  www.paizo.com

63 I don't have a Dungeon or a Dragon.
I guess I'll just mozy on back to The Nobel Prize In Dreck I'll Never Read Even In Reeducation Camps.

64 Gen-Con champion RPGA AD&D tournament winner here. Nationally ranked Top Ten Role Player for a time. It's true. Then I graduated high school. ... also true.

65 Shut up and give me your lunch money.

66 55 Mrs. North loves her some miniatures.  Damn.  We have hundreds of them. Posted by: Truman North


Please tell me they aren't Hummels or Precious(Make Me Puke) Moments.

67 Posted by: Nobel Prize Jury at January 10, 2012 05:36 PM (I2LwF) My late husband played Hero's system when we first moved here. We met some great people that way.

68

Do any of these versions have hawt, nekkid chicks?

69 and "Ace of Aces" - the page flipping air-to-air combat book - is teh roxor.

70 They ruined The Forgotten Realms. I fucking hate the new edition.

71 >>>Your post does answer a question I had though. I just got the kids the Harvesters RPG from Troll Lords Games and was noticing that a lot of stuff was ripped straight tron D&D That may not be the open license. The retro-clones crowed relies upon an old bit of law that says you can't copyright RULES per se, only the expression thereof (that is, the actual text). So many "retro-clones" are just rewriting the old rules to, say, D&D first edition or the Red Box and packaging them and selling them.

72 66 Shut up and give me your lunch money. Posted by: Dave in Texas


ROTFLMAO

73 Allen, you really ought to get FREd and a couple of source books.  You will never play Marvel again.  And this is from a guy who has alll the FACERIP stuff too

I've played FREd before.  Not a huge fan.  If I want that kind of customization, I can get it from Mutants & Masterminds, without having to worry about 1/4 limitations (or whatever).

74 Do any of these versions have hawt, nekkid chicks? yes. But they're played by guys. --

75 NERDTASTIC!  Nay, Might I even say NERDTACULAR!

76 Do any of these versions have hawt, nekkid chicks?

Most of them.  We're talking nerds, so there's a lot of improbable armor.  Like chain-mail bikinis.

77 Finally, something important on this site.

78 I tried D&D way back went it first came out.
Boring.
But I did enjoy the novel from Sharyn McCrumb, Binbos of the Death Sun, a murder mystery based on the game. Was very funny. I can see our dear Ace in that book.

79 75 Do any of these versions have hawt, nekkid chicks?

yes. But they're played by guys.

---

Ah, so just like the internet!

80 Which one of you bastards is gonna do my homework?

81 Im just going to point out D&D 3rd Ed was super-popular thanks to the computer RPGs that ran off the rules in the late 90s and early 2000s--Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape, etc. I'd be interested to see if the fall of Interplay had anything to do with the sudden move to the lousy 4th Ed rules. My brother still does pen and paper D&D, but he's one of the few that still bothers. Pixelation has replaced imagination to a huge degree. And yes, I'm single, ladies!

82 The internet and roleplaying. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are Chris Hanson.

83

My contribution to fandom:

 

The Serpent Society

Captain America and Cast

84 I played the stupid storm reach crap for like 4 days. Fucking retarded.

85 Your D&D knowledge provides +5 protection against vagina.

86 A free game probably isn't what they have their ultimate sights set on.

Well a couple of things.
1. The game doesn't suck, it's actually pretty good. And has always been ranked near the top of free games. But has always only attracted moderate numbers.
2. If you have trouble giving it away.

Seriously I think they could do real well actually implementing a real good version of Forgotten Realms, but given that there are oodles more people pining to see what Rohan will be like in LOTRO it seems unlikely that the ball is going to get picked up since Turbine kind of has the market covered as long as they keep giving away DDO.

87 Are there any pr0n combat games?  Are they free?  Will I feel good after playing them?

88 My brother still does pen and paper D&D, but he's one of the few that still bothers.

My mouse is still a paper guy.

89 I've got a signed, pre-release "Egg of the Phoenix" module mint condition that I won for the tournament that I found out is worth about $2,000 ... to some. (remember, it only takes one person to buy it.) My wife packed all that "dumb stuff" ... I've found my character sheets, beat up DM Guide and players handbook ... screen. But not that effing module. .

90 Pixelation has replaced imagination to a huge degree.

I used to have internet debates with a guy who thought that computer RPGs were better than table-top RPGs because "special moves."  Seriously.

They're a different medium.  I loved Baldur's Gate when it came out; I loved Neverwinter Nights and NWN2 as well.  But they're not the same, to me.  Even MMORPGs don't quite give me what I'm looking for in a sit-down, table-top RPG session.

91 Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 05:38 PM (5H6zj) John really liked Dragon magazine as well. When they changed to Pathfinder we were very interested until we realized just how serious they were about " No more PG-13" which made it useless in our quest to bring our kids into role-playing.

92

But I did enjoy the novel from Sharyn McCrumb, Binbos of the Death Sun, a murder mystery based on the game. Was very funny. I can see our dear Ace in that book.

I drink because of people like you.

93 Hey I've heard some people collect spores, molds and fungus.  Whatever floats your boat.

94 Oooooohhhh..... Look at the big brain on ace.

95 John really liked Dragon magazine as well. When they changed to Pathfinder we were very interested until we realized just how serious they were about " No more PG-13" which made it useless in our quest to bring our kids into role-playing.

My cousin taught his son to play D&D (yes, using D&D4) with those Play School knights & dragons figures for the minis.

Even did a pod-cast of the games, somewhere.

96

I drink because of people like you.

Posted by: Appin Dungannon

I just drink.  I don't need an excuse.

97 Woah. Ace spurged out about D&D.

98

Please tell me they aren't Hummels or Precious(Make Me Puke) Moments.

Oh, no, they're D&D figures.  Hot chicks and badass monsters. 

99 If you have kids, haunt the used book rack at a local game store. You can occasionally find some real gems that are good for everyone. And you're never too young for Paranoia. Its good prep for if Obama gets re-elected.

100 +2 hand lotion
enchanted infinite-use kleenex

101 87 The storm reach game is boring after 10 minutes, unbearable after an hour, and then decends into the realm of ex-girlfriend who tries to get all your friends to hate you kinda annoying after the first day.

102 @92
Yeah, I gather a lot of these newish games are into all that weird vampire stuff.  Blech. 

I don't play (I did a few times when I was in h.s.), but I like that he does all of this research into their worlds.  He's the DM.  He knows a lot of history, comparative religions, and esoterica.  It's cool.   I can relate to that a lot more than the first person shooter games. 

103 Ace, I normally wouldn't ask this (and I'm one to talk), but when is the last time you got laid? 

If anybody's interested in some speculative news, I've got a piece of you.  Granted, it's from Debkafile (so you'd need secondary confirmation), but if the Iranians are planning some kind of nuclear test, a small "pop" is the way to go. 

Iran Plans 1-Kiloton Underground Nuclear Test

104 Oh, come over to the dark side Ace, baby. If you want true MMORPG'ish, taking place in space, look into how deep EVE is. There inlies the truest of D&D-like mmorpg gamers. Disclaimer: currently on hiatus from RIFT, and SWTOR due to travel. *clapping for ACE

105 >>Mrs. North loves her some miniatures.  Damn.  We have hundreds of them. Posted by: Truman North

As long as one of them doesn't actually belong to you, I wouldn't fret about it.

106 and "Ace of Aces" - the page flipping air-to-air combat book - is teh roxor.

I loved that!   And they had a version of swordsmen riding on the backs of dragons.  You know, for fags.

107 Kratos,

Is Iran gonna blow up that elf world or something?  I never read (horror) Lord of the Rings so I don't know if they deserve to be blowed up or not.

108 Right on the money: 63

Happily, I never stopped playing 3.5 and my group has basically ignored Wizards since they switched to 4E. I suspect we will continue to ignore Wizards when 5E comes out.

109

If anybody's interested in some speculative news, I've got a piece of you.  Granted, it's from Debkafile (so you'd need secondary confirmation), but if the Iranians are planning some kind of nuclear test, a small "pop" is the way to go.

 

How can we tell if it was nuclear or just some Iranian pulling his head out his ass? 

110 To paraphrase DiT.  Give me lunch money you f*cking dwarfs or whatever you're supposed to be.

111 D&D?  I'm with the honey badger on this one.

So I'll just say that Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a miserable tyrant.

112 --First, it's FASERIP.  If you're going to claim allegiance, learn the secret code.

--Next, when I have to learn these things here, I must be out of the loop.

--GURPS 4ed, punks!

^{--I have no life.  God help me.}

113

1. Romney

2. Mike Hunstman

3. Ron Paul

 

Bear in mind I had LSU winning 16-10

114 Yeah I was a first addition guy in my youth. When they removed the Druid I stopped playing. Finger of Death and Creeping Doom were teh awesome.

115 as an athlete.....i never got into this "role playing stuff" it really was only nerds who were into this.....

116 nerdrage over my Tolkein dis??


I'm sorry, did I miss something in an earlier thread.

117 Jesus, what did I say?  FACERIP?  I'm sorry.

118 First, it's FASERIP.  If you're going to claim allegiance, learn the secret code.

Gah!  You're right!  Fighting, Agility, Strength, Endurance (?), Reason, Intuition, Psyche.  Bah, can't believe I screwed that one up.

Oh, and GURPS sucks.

119 Back in high school, a group of us would gather every Saturday for a little Star Wars D&D style role playing. I was a fallen Jedi, it was pretty sweet. And yeah, uber-dorky. But now I can turn on my computer and SW:TOR it up whenever I want. In fact, screw you guys, I'ma gonna go play with my wookie and slay some Sith lords right now. Cause I'm cool like that.

120 Lord of the Rings was one of the worst sci fi novels I've ever read. The characters were cookie cut outs, had no depth, lacked any originality, and showed no growth during the books. I mean did Samwell change at all? Did the stupid fucking named "ranger"? Btw what a dumb fucking name and dumb ass character all the way down to shock of all shocks, banging an elf.

121 This thread would be a lot better with cheerleaders.

122 This thread would be a lot better with cheerleaders.

Okay, but that's generally true anyway.
Or hot IDF chicks.

123 you call it your wookie? wow

124 Is Iran gonna blow up that elf world or something?  I never read (horror) Lord of the Rings so I don't know if they deserve to be blowed up or not.

I hate elves.  If they aren't engaging in wild orgies with Santa and Mrs. Claus at the North Pole, they are arrogant, aloof, and condescending jerks who can't even destroy evil (as manifested by the Ring) themselves - they outsource that task to the furry offspring of Robert Reich. 

Thus I would applaud Iran if they were trying to destroy the Elven world.   However, as you already know, Iran's true plans are much more sinister and evil. 

125 Fuck NH.  I'm sick of the northeast squishyness.

126 FOX exit polls show that over 40% of the voters are 'Independents" meaning ron paul nuts and only 53% are "conservatives" so that means paul and huntsman are gettign votes. Basically this is NOT a Republican Primary it's only a way for the MSM and the nuts to fuck with us.

127 This thread would be a lot better with cheerleaders.

I'm afraid this thread emanates a Circle of Protection against cheerleaders that extends 100yds.

128 mugiwara: Did you play the D6 version or the D20?

129 Mr. Pink: LOL

130 I played the original AD&D back in 1980-85 or so.  Quite happy with it and didn't need any upgrades.

131 Did you play the D6 version or the D20?

I refuse to admit the D20 version (either of them) of Star Wars ever existed.  Kind of like the Prequels.

132 131 mugiwara:

Did you play the D6 version or the D20?

Posted by: Potato Bandit at January 10, 2012 06:04 PM (H15Ok)

Shit, I don't remember. The kid whose house we'd go to had all the books and always DM'd.

133 haha... the old Star Wars D6... those were the days.  You could play a protocol droid.  You would be good at talking to binary load lifters but nothing else.

134 Dungeons and Dragons? Isn't that just a bit too High School, c. 1980?

135 >>I'ma gonna go play with my wookie and slay some Sith lords right now. Cause I'm cool like that.

_{Some of the States still don't allow that kinda thing, I'd keep the lights down low and draw the curtains.}

136 Every "ranger" bangs an elf Truman, it's like their right of passage. And don't get me started on that homo drzzt with the gay panther extra from a HeMan cartoon, his retarded buddies, and waste of time fight scenes.

137 D&D players always roll a 1 in the girlfriend department.

138 I added a hot elf chick picture. The audience is always right.

139 136 haha... the old Star Wars D6... those were the days.  You could play a protocol droid.  You would be good at talking to binary load lifters but nothing else. Posted by: Truman North

Okay Truman, how old ARE you?

140 Her bottom seems to have a face pressing against it, from the inside... What's that about?

141 The best version of D&D is still free:  http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

142 So this would be better than jamming kniting needles in my eyes precisely how?

143 Oh, I'm old

144 Tomorrow evening, I am taking my kid to a DnD class for the first time.  I have never played but he is really excited to go.  I am not proud of this.

145 Elves blow

146 Okay, that's it.

We need a Moron Meetup at GenCon or DragonCon this year.

147 .
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` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` Â… ʹʹAÂ… ` Â… ʹA``Â…`Â… …¯¾L``````ˋ

148 Back in high school, a group of us would gather every day to smoke dope, drink booze and screw our boyfriends in their cars.Saturday for a little Star Wars D&D style role playing.

Fixed It For Me.

149 I need an SSD, Tatooine takes forever to load

150 That was fascinating and informative.  Thank you.

151 The hawt elf chick picture is a nice touch, but since most games have failed to make their saving throw against virginity, it's moot.

152 I added a hot elf chick picture. The audience is always right.

Posted by: ace at January 10, 2012 06:08 PM (nj1bB)

Much improved, thanks. I'll be in my bunk.

153

154

a DnD class

It requires classes to figure out?  Maybe the kid would be better of with a smack habit to occupy his time.  Lower impact on your time.

155 The internet and roleplaying.
Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are Chris Hanson. Posted by: Harlequin

I'm stealing this. LOL

156 Flight Simulator.  The only virtual interactive thing I've done.  Enjoyed the hell out of it.  All the advantages of actually flying without the hassle of killing myself.

157 The audience is always right.

Huh? Really? Does that include other threads?

158 That elf chick has some pointy ears.

159 145 So this would be better than jamming kniting needles in my eyes precisely how? Posted by: Purple Avenger

LOL

I missed this whole era, thank Gawd.  We just got stoned and listened to Pink Floyd.  In the 80's we snorted coke and drank ourselves sober, same difference

160

I owe a lot to 4th edition D&D.

I've saved a lot of money by not going to gaming conventions, since I stopped playing when D&D4E came out.

161 Just moved recently and one of the boxes I moved was my D&D box. Last I updated the books was 3.5. I seriously considered throwing it out, but I figured, what the hell, it's just one more box. I have to admit one of the most enjoyable times of my life was going away to an academic nerd camp and playing D&D all night. Previous to that I'd actually bought the D&D books, but I didn't have anyone to play with. I just made up characters and read the rules. Last I played was in grad school.

162

"I played the original AD&D back in 1980-85 or so.  Quite happy with it and didn't need any upgrades."

Same here. I still have my books and crap somewhere in the house. It was a blast. Playing till 4-5 in the morning, drinking and smoking. Good times.

163 I added a hot elf chick picture. The audience is always right.

Sharp elbows.

164 Perry has a demanding lead in NH according to Fox. This could be the unexpected comeback you were waiting for.

165 Elves were invented by human wizards to be their sex slaves.  It's obvious.

166 Perry has a demanding lead in NH according to Fox. This could be the unexpected comeback you were waiting for.

Please don't get my hopes up...  Especially since he didn't even campaign there.

167 Surprised you linked to Carnifax considering his comments about Perry.

168 Perry has a demanding lead in NH according to Fox. This could be the unexpected comeback you were waiting for.

So there's an emoticon of hope.

169 Ah, yes.  A chick pic.  Finally, a stimulating element in an otherwise excruciatingly boring thread.

170

Perry has a demanding lead in NH according to Fox.

Bitchin.  The northeast knows what mittens is all about, and they've had their fill.

171 >no infringement intended

Yeah, that'll work.

172 A problem with the elbows I don't have, but the ears, oy vey!

173
*squirt*

174 Does this mean we need a gaming session at the next blogcon? Not saying I would take part. I just hear about this stuff.

175 Flight Simulator.  The only virtual interactive thing I've done.  Enjoyed the hell out of it.  All the advantages of actually flying without the hassle of killing myself.

Posted by: Soona at January 10, 2012 06:12 PM (/VmDe)

That's a different level of geekery of which I've enjoyed myself. I had the 2004 Century of Flight from MS.

It was pretty cool. I rolled a 747 but lost 37,000 feet in the process. I don't think that's technically called a roll.

176 I'm not into the whole D&D thing much, but are these elves available mailorder?

177 Sharp elbows.

Posted by: WalrusRex at January 10, 2012 06:13 PM (Hx5uv)

 

Yeah.  And she definitley doesn't look like a virgin.

178 A problem with the elbows I don't have, but the ears, oy vey! Posted by: BurtTC

You do? I see them as pistol grip ears.

Or reins

179 Funny thing, my first D&D exposure was nerd camp. But I met a cute girl at nerd camp, too. Which led to some other first exposures. So I'd go out and fool around with the girl, then get back to the dorm by curfew and play D&D all night. So I actually associate D&D with cute girls wanting to fool around with me. I know, intellectually, that D&D is chick repellent of swiftness +3, but my actual experience was the opposite.

180 I like those retro clones. They make me feel like a stupid easily impressed 8 year old with a module in my backpack talking shit before class starts while the teacher has easy listening on the radio and we're all looking at the funny dice and the monster manual and just nerding the hell out before we were even sure what nerds were. Those were sweet days even though I'm sure I was complaining about them at the time. Roller rinks, big pickles, arcades... $4.50 matinee movies...Pat Benatar...ahhhh.

181 The only place I will role play my morons is the bedroom.  I'll say no more.  Let your minds wander with the possibilities. 

182 Mitt Romney loves D & D, you can guarantee that.

183 And we all thought we'd be killed by nukes before we got to high school...

184 I know it is easy to make fun of the RPG kids. But for me it was one of the only social interactions I had growing up. I was in and out of hospitals all through high school. So it was nice to have something to do with friends.

185

It was pretty cool. I rolled a 747 but lost 37,000 feet in the process. I don't think that's technically called a roll.

Posted by: ErikW

That is called Crash Scene.

186 The only place I will role play my morons is the bedroom.  I'll say no more.  Let your minds wander with the possibilities. 
Posted by: mpfs

My staff is at the ready

187 What's more stupid and cliche nowadays the all powerful wizard in lord of the rings, the all powerful wizard elminster, the all powerful wizard fizban, or the all powerful wizard named pug or something who can't die? I want them all to die, George Martin style heads cut off and wives raped.

188  The only place I will role play my morons is the bedroom.  I'll say no more.  Let your minds wander with the possibilities. 

Posted by: mpfs at January 10, 2012 06:20 PM (iYbLN)

 

Your Thumper has totally changed you, mpfs.

189 192

For the better.

190 I like 4th ed

stop
the h8

191

The only place I will role play my morons is the bedroom.  I'll say no more.  Let your minds wander with the possibilities. 

Hey Baby, wanna...

Oh, MAGIC MISSLE!!

192

Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt!

193 NERDS!!

194 O/T: Hot Air has been invaded by Miitbots. It is quite a spectacle. A sample: ----------- As another Romney supporter, I ask you to bite me. GLOAT GLOAT GLOAT!!!! The first non-incumbent republican candidate to win the first two contests, Iowa and New Hampshire will be MITT ROMNEY!!! GLOAT, GLOAT, GLOAT!!! Hows them apples you Palin nuts???? HA HA HA HA ---------------------------- Jesus H. Christ.

195 Savage Worlds 4 life y'all! I'm a let u finish.

196 I've never been more proud to be normal.

197 On a similar topic, anyone want to watch a somewhat entertaining Made-For-TV movie about a fictional D&D game, watch "Monsters & Mazes." In it, a young Tom Hanks loses his mind from playing the game. When I was a kid, my mom and other parents I knew thought this was a common thing (losing one's mind in such a way). Also that it was demonic  or something.

198

_{So they were casting all sorts of spells 'n' shit trying to take down the "impenetrable wall".  I was like, "hmm, isn't this a sign or something that maybe we should keep out?"  They kept doing all this stuff to try to get through this wall.  I don't think I showed up for the second session, it all seemed kinda dumb.}

So that's what an invisible barrier looks like!

199 Funny that no one mentions Shadowrun. Despite some flaws it's a simple and relatively elegant system. Works fine for fantasy and sci-fi as well as the paranoid, racist, Prison Planet-inspired original genre. Hero system is not as complex as people make out, they just provide a lot of options. People bog down on character creation for that reason, but gameplay is not complex. Also slowly going out of business. I got used to the "free-wheeling" nature of Hero and now everything else feels like I'm a square peg being forced into a round hole. MMORPGs have taken over for the "grinding / tabletop Gauntlet" players, for the most part, so it was a little silly to go for that market with D&D4. I think the eventual goal is a tabletop game with the *mechanics* being handled by a computer, some people did that with Neverwinter Nights, which had a "GM mode" where a player could run group sessions over a network and make changes to the "module" in-game, combining tabletop and computer gaming. Kind of clumsy but interesting. Having an impartial and non-creative computer run the show isn't as interesting, as we see in the lack of RP in MMORPGs. I would like to see a massively multiplayer *adventure* game, but that might be insanely difficult to manage.

200 That may not be the open license. The retro-clones crowed relies upon an old bit of law that says you can't copyright RULES per se, only the expression thereof (that is, the actual text). The technical bit of the old law, which copyright is still theoretically based on although it's been chipped away at pretty heavily, is that copyright is a monopoly grant by the government; normally if you put something out in the world, other people can do want with that something, including taking it apart and putting it back together and making more copies of it. The copyright monopoly grants some restrictions on what people could normally do with what you make public, for a limited time (hah) and for a limited set of things, and, for a limited set of restrictions. Very importantly, since the purpose of copyright is to make things public so that they can be used, you arenÂ’t allowed to copyright ideas. You can only copyright a particular expression of an idea. Rules are ideas. Thus, they canÂ’t be copyrighted, only a particular expression (i.e., the actual text) can. This ties in to the doctrine of merger, which is that, if it turns out there is only one reasonable way to express an idea, that particular expression also canÂ’t be copyrighted. Because you canÂ’t copyright an idea, even accidentally. Blah blah blah.

201 That is called Crash Scene.

Posted by: mpfs at January 10, 2012 06:21 PM (iYbLN)

Heh, a buddy of mine is a for-real commercial pilot with over 30,000 hours of flight time and when I described my stupid sim flight he told me that even though I didn't hit the ground, the stresses would have exceeded the structural integrity of the plane and it would have disintegrated.

Good thing I'm not a pilot.

202 I don't know anything about D&D but I like the picture

203 O/T but WTF. How about if, for all future Iranian sailors that we rescue, before we return them, we give them an all expense paid weekend in Las Vegas, followed by fully funded shopping trips to both Roreo Drive and Fifth Avenue, and then send them back, after an onscreen interview by, say, a FoxNews lady?

204 Is there anything more cliche than elves in their fucking faggot Forrest's prancing around and being better than everyone or the all powerful wizard that lives forever and can blow up the world but yet conscripts newb pussys to fulfill the dangerous suicidal quest to _____ ________ in the ____ dungeon of death?

205

big ears, small boobs, pointy elbows, some funny mark down next to the poontang.........

yeah, i would hit it.

206

That elf chick has some pointy ears.

 

Like to put yer eye out!

207 i played D&D when I was like 13, then i noticed girls never go out with D&D geeks, so i sold my 20-sided dice and bought liquor with it, girls like liquor.

208 How about if, for all future Iranian sailors that we rescue, before we return them, we give them an all expense paid weekend in Las Vegas, followed by fully funded shopping trips to both Roreo Drive and Fifth Avenue, and then send them back, after an onscreen interview by, say, a FoxNews lady? Posted by: I am the walrus, goo-goo-ga-joo at January 10, 2012 06:30 PM (ybkwK) OK, but just to make sure that it is effective, why not try it out on me first?

209 OMFG!!!...but I'd still hit; in fact I'd hold her ears and use her head as my beer holder...IYKWIMAITYD.

210

Obligatory:

Stephen Lynch - Its D&D

211 65 - in spite of your eventual dismissal of the game, I appreciate an AD&D enthusiast. Everything released since sucks.

212 193-- actually that's a problem right there of failure to understand human psychology and how it relates to game design. Your DM probably meant it to mean "go somewhere else, this part isn't done yet." But how it actually strikes people is "This is a challenge to be overcome," so you spent hours attempting to knock down a wall he couldn't let you knock down because he had no idea what would be on the other side of it. that's kind of a writing thing, too. You can't shine too big a spotlight on something you don't want your reader obsessing over. if you introduce a character who is supposed to be disposable and just give a small amount of information before exiting forever, you don't want him to be interesting. You don't want readers thinking, at the end, hey whatever happened to that interesting guy who yielded the clue? It's a matter of anticipating what the audience will actually seize on, and find mysterious and interesting, and avoiding making things which aren't supposed to be interesting too interesting. Keeping the mystery for the actual mysterious bits.

213  i played D&D when I was like 13, then i noticed girls never go out with D&D geeks, so i sold my 20-sided dice and bought liquor with it, girls like liquor.

Posted by: Shoey at January 10, 2012 06:32 PM (jdOk/)

 

That's how it starts.  But before you know it, you're down in a dark basement, wearing torn underwear, watching pron with Ace.

214 D&D 4th Edition? I blame the Jews.

215 First thing: Mike Mearls should be sacked.

216 I was like, "hmm, isn't this a sign or something that maybe we should keep out?"  They kept doing all this stuff to try to get through this wall.  I don't think I showed up for the second session, it all seemed kinda dumb.

Posted by: chemjeff at January 10, 2012 06:24 PM (7FadD) 

----

hee, hee! 

The one time I tried to play D&D with Mr Y-not the adventure set up had something to do with being hired by some slimey seeming dude to go into a forest or somewhere with tons of goblins in it and investigate something.  Anyway, the first step was to go down into a cave and I kept standing there saying "What's my motivation?"  I was too stuck in character to get going.  Adventure fail. 

But I think it's a great hobby.  There's a lot to it, if done right.  I would much rather be with a D&D nerd than a video game addict. 

217 75 Do any of these versions have hawt, nekkid chicks? yes. But they're played by guys. -- Hehe, so true.

218 Re: the picture - as beards on female dwarves assist the male dwarf (as pantomimed in the execrable "Dungeons and Dragons" movie), so do the ears enhance the male elf's enjoyment.

219 George Lucas did that with Boba Fett. He never intended boba fett to be a major character. So he continues to be baffled why people are mad that a major character got a comical, silly, by-accident death, instead of a properly dramatic one. It's because you made Boba Fett look cool, surrounded him with mystery, and most importantly, had him address Darth Vader not as a flunkie but as an equal (or even an inferior -- boba fett kind of threatens him some). But George Lucas doesn't know what he's doing (TM), of course.

220 Geez!  Tebow sock OFF!

221

>>Perry has a demanding lead in NH according to Fox.

What are his demands?

222

Sock off.  (damn, double fail)

223 199 O/T: Hot Air has been invaded by Miitbots. It is quite a spectacle.

They're really hurting their candidate. 

224 Oddball hobbies are not always a turnoff with women.  I can cite at least a few cases to the contrary.

I never did get into dungeons & dragons much.  I'm a gamer, Final Fantasy, Megaman, Metroid, et cetera - and I've been a longtime player of Final Fantasy XI online, so I've got that mark against me, too.  But D&D... eh.

First time a friend convinced me to join a group, I was in a party with an orc, and a violent criminal (in the game).  Being lawful good, I did what I thought I was supposed to, and as soon as opportunity presented itself, I killed the two of them behind a tavern.

I got kicked out of the group that night. >.> Apparently I'm not cut out for tabletops.

225 4th Ed was way lame, from an old-time gamer's perspective. It was very (too) balanced and made it easy for a DM to set up encounters, but completely dissolved the idiosyncracies of character development, which to any serious role-player is key to the experience of husbanding a PC. If you understood the above, welcome to geekdom.

226 212 i played D&D when I was like 13, then i noticed girls never go out with D&D geeks, so i sold my 20-sided dice and bought liquor with it, girls like liquor.

Posted by: Shoey at January 10, 2012 06:32 PM (jdOk/)

Girls also like fresh-baked lasagnas and chocolate mousse in a cup.

Protip!!

227 118 as an athlete.....i never got into this "role playing stuff" it really was only nerds who were into this..... ------- Me ==> athlete and gamer (and artist, and writer, etc.. ) You would be surprised who plays some of the MMORPG's, and FPS's as well. Proud to be a nerd.

228 229 - your group didn't know how to play the game. You should have been rewarded for acting in character.

229 Being lawful good, I did what I thought I was supposed to, and as soon as opportunity presented itself, I killed the two of them behind a tavern.

I got kicked out of the group that night. >.> Apparently I'm not cut out for tabletops
---

I think if I were to try again I'd pick something other than lawful good (which is too close to my own real personality).  My husband's best friend plays what would best be described as chaotic greedy.  That works!

230 Fantasy Football/Baseball/etc. is D&D for former jocks.

231 Being lawful good, I did what I thought I was supposed to, and as soon as opportunity presented itself, I killed the two of them behind a tavern.

I got kicked out of the group that night. >.> Apparently I'm not cut out for tabletops
---

I think if I were to try again I'd pick something other than lawful good (which is too close to my own real personality).  My husband's best friend plays what would best be described as chaotic greedy.  That works!

Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 06:45 PM (5H6zj)

I suppose playing as the fantasy equivalent of Batman was out of the question?

232 This threat has revealed so many fellow gamer geeks that read AoSHQ.  My cockells are warmed beyond words.

233

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at January 10, 2012 06:27 PM (bxiXv)

I loved me some Shadowrun.  Tricking a character out with cybernetic enhancements, equipping seriously badass weaponry, then planning sophisticated missions of questionable legality, was all kinds of fun.

234

I suppose playing as the fantasy equivalent of Batman was out of the question?

Posted by: Hoss Fuentes at January 10, 2012 06:46 PM (je9Ke)

I like Batman.  I really do.

But the Joker has entire graveyards written in his name because Batman just refuses to cop to the truth that every time I let this clown go, I sentence a few hundred good men and women to death.

Slice first, ask no questions.  Urite mala mundi!

235

4E was not that severe a departure from 3.5; indeed a lot of elements in 4E were either introduced in 3.5, and make appearances in Pathfinder.

The problem, among many, is that 4E was promoted as a severe departure from 3.5, including the almost obligatory sneering at 3.5 and certain elements they said they were changing. Of course when 4E came out those very same elements were there. To make it worse, they were soon promoting elements they had previously sneered at as high points of 4E.

Ultimately though, 4E was almost completely evolutionary in only one critical area, and rather egregiously devolutionary in another critical area, and that is what wound up forcing WotC to come out with 4.5, excuse me, "D&D Essentials", faster than they came out with 3.5 compared to 3E. Those areas?
For evolution, they focused on making a more mathematically "perfect" game, where everything was in absolute balance. Being adventure writers rather than mathematicians, they naturally screwed that up completely, introducing some truly atrocious quirks.
For devolution, they turned the game massively back to its wargame roots. It is much more a miniatures boardgame (like say Advanced Squad Leader) with RPG elements tagged in than it is an RPG using hacked wargame rules (like say AD&D). That does not mean you cannot role-play with the 4E rules; far from it. It does however mean you need mad tactical combat skills to be really good at it, and their intended target simply did not have those skills. A good portion of their previous market did, but they had made such an effort to ditch that group that they left the game in an oblivion of complexity, incidentally completely blowing one of their major stated initial design goals.

From there things just went from bad to worse, such as destroying their organized play system, trading the concept of an afternoon/evening (4-hour) play session, for a hyperactive, Yuppie-on-the-Run, quickie (1-hour) play session, throwing in Twitter feed bonuses for extra fun.

And those are only the highlights of the issues with WotC's 4E run.

As for Pathfinder, it simply is not as backwards compatible as the publishers and fans like to pretend it is, and is quickly accumulating just as much dead weight rules books as 3E/3.5/4E did. Add to that the hard Left worldview of well near the entire management and workforce, and a dominant theme of Torture Porn masquerading as "edgy" and "adult", and you have a product with no real attraction above and beyond sticking with whatever junk WotC is spamming the shelves with.

As for OSR movement, they are hellbent on proving they are a worthless pack of vultures. I'd have to get really rude to discuss them.

As a last note, when 4E was announced there were the usual cynics who asked when 5E would be out.
Having my share of miserable cynicism, I pointed out that when 3E was announced WotC said they were looking at a 5-year cycle for the game. They got a bit messed up on that and brought 3.5 out after 3 years, but they stuck with 3.5 for 5 years, still surprising many people. I made it quite clear to all my fellow nerds that I absolutely expected 5E in 2013, with an announcement at Gen Con 2012. I further said the announcement could be moved up with another announcement of movement on the electronic game rights. Lo and behold, said announcement was made, and 5E was announced now instead of at Gen Con.
Shocking, but there you have it: a company that actually told the truth about its plans.

236 I'd bang that elf until pixie dust shot out of her fartbox.

237 I bet Ron Paul's AC is crazy high.

238 I'd hit it. Provided I rolled a natural 7 or better.

239

I suppose playing as the fantasy equivalent of Batman was out of the question?

Posted by: Hoss Fuentes at January 10, 2012 06:46 PM (je9Ke)

I like Batman.  I really do.

But the Joker has entire graveyards written in his name because Batman just refuses to cop to the truth that every time I let this clown go, I sentence a few hundred good men and women to death.

Slice first, ask no questions.  Urite mala mundi!

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at January 10, 2012 06:49 PM (kUd5w)

Correction.  Not Batman.  Big Daddy from Kick-Ass.  Like Batman, but more murderey.

240 Posted by: Free2Smooze at January 10, 2012 06:47 PM (4l66I)

MAN!...you can say that again!...lotsa new nics and hashes in here.  Not a gamer but certainly can understand the attraction to gaming...only thing I've ever played was Golden Eye during snowboard vacations...

241 Posted by: Kinley Ardal at January 10, 2012 06:49 PM (kUd5w)

Also, Batman should have chipped in to Arkham Asylum a bit more financially.  You would think with his money that the security would be a bit better.

242
I think if I were to try again I'd pick something other than lawful good (which is too close to my own real personality).  My husband's best friend plays what would best be described as chaotic greedy.  That works!

Posted by: Y-not at January 10, 2012 06:45 PM (5H6zj) 

See, for me it is exactly the opposite.  I find brandishing a sword relentlessly and unapologetically against wicked men/beings in RPGs and action games to be terribly cathartic for my own Lawful Good personality in reality.  Ninja Gaiden is among my favorite games for this very reason.  I am indeed a dyed-in-the-wool nerd, and probably beyond help.

But honestly, who wants to travel with an Orc?  It was a favor to the group, in my opinion!

243 The new edition is a difficult business proposition, because the actual goal is to unify the D&D audience again and have them all buy actual D&D rulesets, which means they have to placate several different audiences (including people who have, ahem, "gone off the grid' and began playing "retro-clones," clones of first or second edition rules). And the idea is that somehow it will all be "modular" where you can choose from a variety of different rules to make your own perfect ruleset.

My head hurts.

244 that's kind of a writing thing, too. You can't shine too big a spotlight on something you don't want your reader obsessing over. if you introduce a character who is supposed to be disposable and just give a small amount of information before exiting forever, you don't want him to be interesting. You don't want readers thinking, at the end, hey whatever happened to that interesting guy who yielded the clue?

Yeah had a problem with that playing a canned scenario for CoC with my wife. The guide described one room as a room with a cabinet and a boxes of junk. The cabinet was important had clues, was nailed shut. What did my wife obsess over? The JUNK, and made me come up with article after article of unique things that weren't interesting or useful. "You said it was full of junk! what ELSE is in the box?" A more experienced player would have spotted me struggle to come up with new useless contents after the third box and moved on.

245 Dungeons and Dragons?

I play a homebrew version of "Spawn of Fashan". But you all already knew that, didn't you?

246 i guess i'm not much of a gamer. i've been on level 9 of angry birds Rio for 3 fucking weeks.

247
Also, Batman should have chipped in to Arkham Asylum a bit more financially.  You would think with his money that the security would be a bit better.

Posted by: Hoss Fuentes at January 10, 2012 06:54 PM (je9Ke)

The best investment in that madhouse would have been carefully placed explosives burying the entire building, after calling the institutional staff to the front lawn for some contrived meeting.  Staff survives, villains perish, Gotham's safer, Bats gets a day off.  The perfect plan!

248 I love Gamers, and I love it when they get all excited and start unlurking.

249

The best investment in that madhouse would have been carefully placed explosives burying the entire building, after calling the institutional staff to the front lawn for some contrived meeting.  Staff survives, villains perish, Gotham's safer, Bats gets a day off.  The perfect plan! Posted by: Kinley Ardal

Or, you know, bat-injected AIDS.

Whatever works, right?

250 Wow! To much information.

251 AD&D FTW. 3rd ed. is for people who can't memorize.

252

@58

"separate hit points for individual body areas:

Ah, the good old days of RuneQuest... rolling up a character, receiving the divine gift of "master of pike", and then in your very first combat rolling a fumble, and killing yourself with a critical hit to the head.  With a pike, and I don't mean the fish.

253 I think tabletop gaming has a chance to take-off in the future once table-sized tablets are common. The whole Microsoft surface thing. Has the potential to add some production value. Also, computer RPGs have raised the expectation for the amount of complexity gamers expect. But a human DM can only keep so many rules in his head. Constantly consulting the rule books really slows things down. Table-sized touch-screen tablets offer the potential to nicely mix tabletop and computer RPGS and get the best of both worlds. I can fairly easily image a future in say, 2020, where it's fairly common for middle class families to have a "gaming table" that is a large touch tablet that acts as a universal board game, tabletop gaming system.

254

The best investment in that madhouse would have been carefully placed explosives burying the entire building, after calling the institutional staff to the front lawn for some contrived meeting.  Staff survives, villains perish, Gotham's safer, Bats gets a day off.  The perfect plan!

Posted by: Kinley Ardal at January 10, 2012 06:57 PM (kUd5w)

Or, in keeping with the spirit of "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" from Batman Begins, he could just "let" Frank Castle take the nickel tour of the facility.  I'm sure dum-dum would have something to say about that.

This is all taking place in Imaginationland from South Park, right?  Also, my DC comics knowledge is rather lacking, so I'm unaware of any Punisher-equivalent.

255 4th edition killed roleplaying, removing elements of the game that weren't conducive to killing shit and turning the game into an MMO on paper. Clerics and wizards were hit the hardest - why worry about something like preparing your spells for the day? Just give wizards unlimited magic missiles - who needs a spell slot for something like dispel invisibility? And clerics don't have to worry about things like discern lies when you can give them another divine attack power.

And what's this about a maximum number of times a person can be divinely healed in a day? If a god wants to keep on restoring the battered flesh of a mighty warrior, SO BE IT.

256 240 Sam - You make good points on the evolutionary/devolutionary argument. From someone who thinks that AD&D needed no imrovement, I think we may be kindred spirits. I agree with my latest DM's opinion that 4E was a better game from a DM's persective (ease in setting up encounters), but that doesn't change the fact that 4E was bereft of the opportunity for individuality in character creation.

257

Or, in keeping with the spirit of "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" from Batman Begins, he could just "let" Frank Castle take the nickel tour of the facility.  I'm sure dum-dum would have something to say about that.

This is all taking place in Imaginationland from South Park, right?  Also, my DC comics knowledge is rather lacking, so I'm unaware of any Punisher-equivalent.

Posted by: Hoss Fuentes at January 10, 2012 07:05 PM (je9Ke)

Crossovers are acceptable.  I, too, am not very knowledgeable about comic books aside from Batman and Superman. 

Damn.  Need The Dark Knight Rises to be out already.  

Or, you know, bat-injected AIDS.

Whatever works, right?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at January 10, 2012 07:01 PM (jcnm

Okay, I'm liking it, but it's missing something.

Needs explosives somewhere.  It just isn't the same without explosives.

258 260 - Exactly. 4E turned role-playing into roll-playing.

259 Bah, doesn't take algebra to play Hero, it takes basic math you should have mastered by the 7th grade. If multiplication and division are beyond you, perhaps you ought to avoid RPGs altogether. Its up to 6th edition by the way. More streamlined, but the books are even bigger (Steve Long refused to listen to all the people yelling at him to make the books smaller).

By the way, the D&D MMOG is pretty good, its just lousy solo.

260

4 sucked.... 3 OK... and this from a guy who started with Chainmail....

They managed to kill the brand by making it almost imposssible to translate your older characters into the new system...

So the Lawful Evil Paladin of the God of War... that I PLAYED at Gencon with Gary Gygax? whose been around for 38 REAL years?  His equipment, and skills... did not translate into the new system when I tried to play with my Kids...

261 257 - lol

262 Ah, the good old days of RuneQuest... rolling up a character, receiving the divine gift of "master of pike", and then in your very first combat rolling a fumble, and killing yourself with a critical hit to the head.

Chartmaster Rolemaster had the most brutal critical hit/fumble charts in existence. Slice your eyball with an arrow fletching by accident as you fire? Its in there. Hit your friend in the knee with your attack, crippling him? Its in there.

263 Heh- don't know if anyone else searched, but that elf does porn on a site called "whore lore".  Just watched her getting nailed in their preview section.

264 I thought she was from world of whorecraft.

265 Side point - most of the gamers I've known are / were married. I don't think it's quite the "chick repellent" people think it is. Also, as has been recently pointed out, one of the 4E issues was combat orientation. Some of the best 4+ hour game sessions I've been involved in had zero combat. In My Wasted Youth we sometimes had 12+ hour sessions, that was wacky.

266 The most disappointing part of D&D is when you learn that all the hype isn't true.  I was hoping for something like http://tinyurl.com/d8hono 

267 Did you write something? I was just looking at the cheerleader like picture.

268 that's kind of a writing thing, too. You can't shine too big a spotlight on something you don't want your reader obsessing over. if you introduce a character who is supposed to be disposable and just give a small amount of information before exiting forever, you don't want him to be interesting. You don't want readers thinking, at the end, hey whatever happened to that interesting guy who yielded the clue?

Speaking of which, where's Johnny Coldcuts been? I gotta know.

It's a matter of anticipating what the audience will actually seize on, and find mysterious and interesting, and avoiding making things which aren't supposed to be interesting too interesting. Keeping the mystery for the actual mysterious bits.

Oh, good. I've been waiting for the English lit proficiency class. This must be where it starts....

269 Um, serious point here gang.

In the elf-chick's panty front, I see a 'devilish' face-  no lie.  There are 5 'seams' running down the front- the 'eyes' appear to be either side of the middle two...

inner fabric?  or some really good photo-shop?

yeah- original DnD'r here.  Late '70s- like, '77 or earlier.  Hard to remember that far back.  Only played a few times- never did enough drugs to really get into it...

270 The problem with Hero is the "cost of entry," and I don't mean the cash. Most people get boggled on the way in, not the by the gameplay. People naturally want to look through all the material before they make characters, then again during. Try being a GM running four people trying to make Hero characters for the first time. 100+50 pts, fantasy. Timer starts now. There is a strong "cultural" resistance to "archetypes" or mostly pre-made characters in Hero, and in a way it does kind of spoil the fun of the game because the fun is in the fact you can do pretty much whatever you want with a character. But it means you have to spend serious time on character creation, probably providing tech support to the players in the process, sometimes a lot of it. That being said, I don't think there's a better system for making superheroes, or for simply defying genre restrictions.

271 268 - An elf with a tramp stamp? Who knew? lol

272 Side point - most of the gamers I've known are / were married. I don't think it's quite the "chick repellent" people think it is.

Yeah, there are plenty of lady gamers and married gamers and dating gamers. its not the bastion of disgusting unbathed losers it once was, although the conventions are still kind of scary.

Try being a GM running four people trying to make Hero characters for the first time. 100+50 pts, fantasy. Timer starts now.

Try it with D&D and we'll race each other. You'll win, but not by much. Usually though I start out with premades and teach people the system with a few arena fights, then a simple scenario. Eventually people want to make their own guy and then they can learn the system better.

273

Our group chose to stay with 2.0 when 3.0 came out. Yes, 3.0 was superior in game mechanics, but we had already spent too much time editing our world from the changes to 1.0, and had already bought ALL of the 2.0 supplements and accesories. We weren't going to go through all that again.

For us, 3.0 was just about TSR/WOTC changing the core rules so we would all have to go out and by a new set of books. Screw that. The early release of 3.5 confirmed our suspicion that we would have been ripped off again.

We're on DDO now. But Turbine sucks. They actually had an advertising wall you could look at in game. Just *passing* that wall would download phising software onto your computer. They handled the blowback poorly, banning people who expressed outrage and questioned Turbine's ethics. They eventually shut down the phising wall, but at great expense to their rep. I hope they die a slow and painful death.

274 I've never gotten into role playing, even though I've been interested for years and have friends who play.  Mostly the problem is that I've never found a group.  Most places I've lived are full of war gamers, not RPG players.

Interesting story.  I have a friend who is big into the Living Arcanis stuff.  During college she'd talk for hours about the storyline and the people she played with.  She also is a big proponent of getting more women involved in gaming, especially wives who may feel left out from their husband's hobby.  Anywho, so years ago during the 2004 Democratic primary, she was upset one day about an article that she read on the internet.  The article talked about which DnD character each primary candidate would be.  She was particularly upset that Sheila Jackson Lee didn't have a character because "She's not a real candidate."  I asked her for the link, and the rest is history.

275

270 comments and nobody mentions the left nipple?

Plain as day.

Ears, elbows, whatevs...

 

276 Never played, but damn that is a fine looking elf chick.

277 Well, 3rd edition D&D was a serious upgrade to the core system, bringing it significantly more into the modern era of gaming and away from the early 80s style it was. 4th ruined that by making it tabletop MMOG more like Warhammer Quest than a role playing game. Its fun enough, but not D&D.

278

270 comments and nobody mentions the left nipple?

Plain as day.

Ears, elbows, whatevs...

 

Posted by: RamonAllones at January 10, 2012 07:34 PM (ha+6S)

Obviously, we have our priorities.

279 Thread of the Year, and I miss it cooking dinner for the kids. All the old Pendragon and MERP arguments are just fading.

280

"4E was a better game from a DM's persective"

Thats like saying "the menu changes were better from a waiter's perspective"

Okay, nevermind. I'm not going to start a flame war over this.

281 I can't see how on earth you balance encounters with 4th edition rules as a GM, there are so many abilities and weird interacting exploding combinations.

282 I don't think that elf is interested in D&D, - B&D maybe.

I believe she could be effectively subdued with a d4 +6.

283 Oh and GG rocks. Eve, terrible game it is, still can be fucking fun

284 Really a very interesting and lucid article. Informative. Thought provoking, no shit. Thanks for this one.

285 **simply stares in bafflement**

286 I cast magic missle!

287 When two gamers get married, how do they decide whether to live in his parents' basement or her parents' basement?

288 I cast magic missle!

Is that Bigby's Clenched Fist or are you just happy to see me?

289 i fapped to this

290 285 - My point exactly. As a player, it sucked. I saw my DM's point, but having built AD&D levels from scratch, I saw 4E as a crutch, not as a vehicle for creativity.

291 286 - You obviously didn't spend any time with the 4E DMG. Encounters are easily built for PC levels. Doesn't change the fact that the ensuing encounters are cookie-cutter blahsville. I think we would agree on many points in F2F discussion.

292 Honestly I think most gamers download their books and use the pdfs instead of buying 50 dollar hardbound copies these days. And if the local gaming store is any guide, few of them pay for the downloads.

293 So it's kind of like when the Republicans and their apologizers rant and rave about electability and not alienating the Independents and being more Moderate to attract more voters into the Big Tent but in doing so they piss off their base and then lose the election?

Right? Just like that maybe?

Yeah. It's a bad thing for D&D to do this but it's a GOOD thing for conservatives to compromise their ideals so as to MAYBE attract some unknown number of voters who they don't know will for sure vote for them if they do compromise?

294

261 Brennan

The thing with 4E's "ease" of encounter set up is it still collapsed beyond 1 or 2 levels of variation, and that directly because of the nearly universal math failures of the design team.
The sad thing is that defines virtually all of the 4E design - great ideas, horrific execution. I liken it to the South Park episode with Christopher Reeve. Every time someone had a truly evolutionary idea in the 4E design pits, someone wandered by, snapped its neck, and sucked all the usefulness out of it.

Case in point, the character system.
For every bit of creativity they added with customizing certain features, they drained away all the utility and fun by insisting every class be absolutely equal at absolutely every level.
What makes that really sad is even they realized how bad it was, and directly said to revise the flavor text to make characters more unique and appealing. If I should just change it myself, what exactly am I paying for?

295 Less wall of text, more info on the mostly neked elf girl. kthxby.

296 Thanks for the link to the link to the hardcore porn site! Woohoo!

297 #75

yes. But they're played by guys.

I think it was the Conan themed MMORPG that allowed topless female toons. They all had names like 'Moonlea', and they were all played by bepimpled teenage boys. They looked pretty good while battling giant desert scorpions...but still, knowing that behind those bouncing virtual boobies, there was a leering, pimpled teenage face? Serious buzz-kill.

298 Fk me, I hope she's legal because I'm in love

299 299 Sam - It's like you're reading my mind (I know it's an open book). Case in point--I love playing illusionists and monks, so you may understand my consternation with the move away from AD&D. These were two woefully weak classes unless they survived to at least mid-level, and then were kick-ass at higher levels. That factor of specialization has been either diluted (at best) or completely dissolved in the ensuing versions. I can't disagree with your persective at all so far. WotC stole my game and effed it up.

300 #86

Your D&D knowledge provides +5 protection against vagina.

Thread winner!

301 306 - "Whilst"? As Val Kilmer said in _Real Genius_, who talks like that? Rue the day, indeed.

302 Maybe you guys who laugh at gaming missed the thread where Ace linked the porn stars and strippers who play D&D and podcast it. Every military base has gamers at it, its a great way to pass the time with friends.

303 In case none of you were aware, clicking the link below the hot elf pic takes you to a bigger pic of hot elf. Clicking THAT pic takes you to a NSFW gallery of hot elf buck naked and getting her pointy ears screwed off. Apparently, there is an "elf porn" niche I was previously unaware of. I'm. A. Fan.

304 Data point: first chick I ever slept with was after a roleplaying game session. It was Call of Cthulhu, not Dungeons & Dragons, but still. Point is, you can both play RPGs and have sex. That's how I have kids.

305 The elf is Mia Rose, from Whorelore which was formerly known as World of Whorecraft before the lawsuit. Hardcore porn, plus RPG. Win-win.

But Skyrim is calling so I gotta go. Need to enchant some clothes so I can train mage skills.

306

310 posts?  On this subject?

The nerd quotient just went off the chart!

...wait a minute; "Illusionists and Monks"? Really?

307 I would hit that. I would hit that till it's ears fell off.

308 Rule 34

309 Goddammit, I have to work tonight, and there's a good thread up (if it isn't already dead).

Really liked 3.0, disliked 3.5 (why can't keen edge and improved critical stack, again?) but I got over it.

If you ever want to cause a fight among close friends, try to run an evil campaign w/o lawful characters.  Two words, GROUP COHESION.

That's where you witness the DM either throw a smoke grenade and dart out a window, or summon a tararasque and kill them all.

310 D&D original, AD&D and 2nd ed. Traveler, Striker, Paranoia, Arcanum, Ars Magica, Rolemaster, ShadowRun, Warhammer FRP and FB, Patrol, Ironsides, Kingmaker, Titan, Dungeon Hack, Quest, Abermud, SunMud, Twilight 2000, and Wasteland. Then the biggest adventure of all: Marriage, Children and the complete and utter absence of free time.

Truly amazing to see a large group of people with a firm grasp of good and evil, law and chaos, morals and dhimmicraps, who spend what little free time they have hanging out at AoS.

Morons RULE!

311 >>>A more experienced player would have spotted me struggle to come up with new useless contents after the third box and moved on. Dude, you just move the clue to the junkheap your wife is searching in.

312 Over the years I've played: Old Blue-Box DnD, Advanced DnD, Little Black Box Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Star Wars, Star Trek (2 different games), GURPS, Runequest, Space 1889 (not a typo), Castle Falkenstein, DnD 3.0/3.5, and Savage Worlds. I've enjoyed all of them. The rules are far less important than people seem to think. What's important is a good gamemaster, and players whose goal is having fun together.

That being said, I was very impressed by DnD 3.0, because they managed to create an entirely new game under the hood, which nevertheless looked and played like old DnD. That took a lot of good design work to pull off.

313 We just started with Pathfinder last week. The last time I played D&D was 1983, and I stayed stoned in those days so if Pathfinder sucks in comparison I can't tell.

314 >>>I think tabletop gaming has a chance to take-off in the future once table-sized tablets are common. The whole Microsoft surface thing. Has the potential to add some production value. That's like 10 years away and that will be a huge cost.

315 Not to be all grognard, but when I played (7th, 8th grade), we never used battle-mats or miniatures. It was all "I run over to that orc and hit him." This whole visual representation of the battlefield thing is an unnecessary expense promoted by the company to sell that crap. Who wants to spend $1000 on this stuff just to have the game as intended? That's nonsense.

316 Regarding Pathfinder - you don't have to spend a penny for the rules. Paizo has placed all of the rules online in a resource document. Unlike D&D 3.0/3.5 they are also placing their core supplements online as well. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ is URL. They also have a very friendly web presence and heavily promote their organized play group, the Pathfinder Society.

317 true - a reasonable level of imagination is all you need(ed) to describe the action and have the battle. Having an actual battlefield/hex mat and miniatures for an RPG game actually hurts the flow.

318 I don't know if they hurt the flow or not (I don't play, really), but they couldn't possibly add so much that they're worth $1000. If you LIKE that kind of thing, fine, write the rules to include that, but don't make it necessary to have them. It's just too damn expensive. Or, the cheaper way, paiting them yourself, time consuming. That is not the way to make a broadly-selling product. That is the way to sell to a very small number of older diehards (older, because you have to be an adult with a job to buy this stuff) and just tap each of them for a grand.

319 The whole reason I even know about this stuff was in 2000, I saw on the internet they were coming out with 3rd edition. I hadn't seen the game since I was young. but I had a job now, so big deal, wasn't a huge expense to just pay sixty bucks for the three books (or whatever it costs). $60 is one thing, but hundreds of dollars for unending rules-supplements and miniatures...? What kind of casual "let me pick this up and see if I like it" kind of purchase is that?

320 I play Pathfinder, which is DND 3.5 with all the copyrighted bits taken out.  But since it's 99% compatible with 3.5, if you have any of the DND books you can just use them for the game.  It's a great system.  Luckily I live in SE KC, which happens to be a gaming hotbed right now, so finding a game isn't that difficult.

321 @Matt Harris also a very low bar for noobs - easy to learn and cheap to get started. We're definitely fans.

322 btw - I play bridge. chicks dig guys who can play bridge. I'm told.

323 I love bridge. I'm trying to get a game going where I live but my friends won't sit down to learn.

324

304 Brennan - The thing is, they tried to open up more customization in 3E. The problem was, they set things up in a way that there was typically only a very few, very specific, ways to be effective, eliminating well over 99.9% of customization where there was the least hint of competitiveness between players at a table. This was set up in a context of where the organized play program, which they knew was filled with hyper-competitive, gratuitously cheating, mega-nerds, was supposed to be a core part of the sales program. Not only that, they tried promoting these "secret" combos as a selling point of the game. Then of course they fed it with the usual power creep of constant expansions. Which they then tried to restrict in the organized play.

Did I mention before I was only scratching the surface of their design and business errors?

325

321 Ace - That's sort of a yes and no thing.

I'm an old timer too, and played the same way you did back in 79. However it should be remembered that the game was designed by a miniatures gamer. Gygax and everyone he was dealing with at the time all had several K worth of figures lying around anyway, and the earliest iterations of the rules are written with quite a bit of carried over miniatures wargame terminology and structure.
From that perspective, it is more an issue of "What gamer doesn't have all that stuff just lying around anyway?" rather than "Go out and buy it to play our game."

OTOH, if you go and dig up Ryan Dancey's pre-3E report on the state of gaming from 98-99 (IIRC), he has a very clear section showing that there was a single area of game type crossover (tabletop RPGs, CRPGs, console games, CCGs, etc.), and that was in miniatures. A certain segment of the RPG population was also part of the miniatures purchasing population, with a typical investment of about $1K.
In light of that, it made absolutely perfect sense for WotC to put out an in-house line of miniatures. While they screwed it up initially with the "modern" Chainmail, they quickly got back on their feet with their line of pre-painted, plastic, randomized, "collectible", miniatures. Sadly they blew their organized play program for those, which ultimately led to their dropping the line entirely.

As an aside to all of that, remember that 4E was initially promoted with an online "tabletop" as an integral part. Rather than buy $1K of plastic minis, you were supposed to drop $1K on subscriber fees and "theme" expansions.
Corporate disclaimers aside, the impact of designing for that on the 4E rules is blatantly obvious.
Of course WotC tried doing the whole online thing in-house, and it was the massive disaster everyone except abject fanboys expected.

326 Ahhh.. I still play first edition rules once a week with 3 other geeks at work.  All this newfangled stuff is for pussies.

But, seriously...  I cannot for the life of me understand why someone hasn't made an app - PC, Android, iPad, whatever - to do all the mundane crap.  THAT would sell!

327 I will admit, this shit is making me want to go to PAX

328 The chick from Whorecraft. Or whatever they changed their name to to keep from being sued. And one of the few scenes where she actually has her clothes on, no less.

329 Found out Ace didn't add the elf picture until later, which is kind of a relief.  When over a hundred D&D comments went by with no comment on the spectacular photo (never mind the link!), I was wondering just how "nerdy" nerds could get.

330 High School: D&D: once - boring. Very, very boring. Ogre, G.E.V, Stalin's Tanks and other Microgames: all the time! Still have them somewhere in a box.

331 I have been quite impressive with your posts, keep up the great work.

332 You made a few good points there. I did a search on the matter and found a good number of people will agree with your blog.

333 I love what you guys are frequently up too. Such clever work and reporting! Keep up the terrific works guys IÂ’ve added you guys to my blogroll.

334

Wow i really found this to be an interesting read; thanks for sharing

335

Yeah had a problem with that playing a canned scenario for CoC with my wife

I don't mind those. In the "wall" example described in post 193, the DM simply says "guys, you spend the entire day using everything you have on that wall. You realize its not coming down".

My beef was with the cheesy Dragonlance scenarios that said "Note to DM: Captain of the Guard cannot die in this section as he needs to reappear in the next chapter". Nothing is worse than the party figuring out the DM simply won't let them kill him no matter what.

336 Gamer shame is an ugly thing, Ace.

I'm really late to this party, but here's the few things I feel I ought to toss in:  I like 4th edition, it's what my gaming group plays when we play fantasy games.  I never understood all the hate the system received, nor the complaint that it was "Tabletop WoW."  Those arguments just never seemed coherent to me.

Nevertheless, backlash wasn't the only thing that went wrong with 4th edition.  The larger problem was mismanagement of the franchise by the company.  As I understand it, WotC let a bunch of their designers and writers go right before the transition, resulting in some good talent going over to Paizo.  Integration of the new edition with online tools and resources was poor and did not improve much over time.  Their print magazines were shut down and turned to online-only affairs (despite the sunset of print media, this was seen as a bad move since those ventures were supposedly profiting).  The organized gaming community did not receive company support until far too late in the life of the game.  Much of the material published under the 4th edition moniker was material from the previous editions converted to the new ruleset.  The cost of obtaining and utilizing the gaming license for publishing something using 4th edition rules (as with the OGL from 3rd edition) was too high for most, which is probably why there were no 4th edition video games or other clones on the tabletop market.

I'd rather WotC spent more time trying to fix what went wrong here than start a new edition; it seems to me that the audience that was alienated by 4th edition isn't going to come back for anything.  Nerd rage is an odd thing. 

337 Whoa. Nice little enchanted link hole you lured me down with that elf photo. Luckily I escaped with my marriage mostly intact.

338 Pathfinder is a better system than 4e, and Paizo is a much better company to deal with than Hasbro.  It almost seems as if treating their customers like shit has been a contractual obligation for anyone who owned the D&D brand, because TSR, Wizards and Hasbro all did it.  I tried very hard to be a reasonable customer with reasonable expectations, but every one of them were a bunch of dicks if you had any issues to discuss; in short, there were no discussions, you got what you bought so now STFU and leave us alone.

On the other hand, Paizo has a phone number right there on their order page for handling order issues where they actually answer the phone, figure out how to solve your issue, and then - gasp! - follow through on what you just talked about.  Same with rules questions and product opinions, etc., on their message boards.  As a customer, I really appreciate the extra effort.

Other, non-D&D folks seem to understand this sentiment as well.  Once while playing Arcana Evolved I had a rules question, wrote an email to Monte Cook (the author of the book and owner of the company), and the next morning had a personal reply from Monte explaining the rule.  Rock solid.

So, while D&D has always been a fun RPG and was definitely the progenitor of that genre, they can go fuck themselves for treating their customers so shabbily for three decades.  Unless Paizo runs off the rails or (more likely) gets bought by Hasbro, they have my business.

339 Never took much interest in D&D after 1st Ed. AD&D. The 1st Edition DM's Guide is a pretty remarkable book, with a florid prose style and all kinds of philosophical musings lurking amidst the random loot and prostitute tables. Me, I recommend Savage Worlds. I'd play it today if my friends still lived nearby.

340 I always see the D&D threads too late.

Castles & Crusades is my D&D game of choice, now.  All the good stuff of 3E without the ridiculous number crunching overhead.  Since I'm the DM, that means a lot.

341

I played 2nd edition too much in college.

Some of the 1st edition stuff was excellent, but I never played it.  The Manual of the Planes is one of the best gaming books ever written.  I bought a lot of the books for the quality of the art and the interesting story.

I had some 3rd edition stuff, but never played it.

In 2010 I sold 90% of my stuff to a local bookstore, which was a lot. 

WoW killed the market.  You can log in and play an hour without three hours of prep time.

342 I suspected that this sort of thing might occur with WotC at the helm.  I like M:TG, but I'm not at all interested in purchasing a new set of cards every freaking year.  Same for D&D.  I'm wholly uninterested in purchasing a $100 set of rulebooks every year or two in order to pad out WotC's profit margin.

Of course, I'm still most fond of AD&D First Edition, so take my sentiment for what it's worth.  THAC0 fo' life!  Or somesuch.

343 4th edition D&D?!? I cast magic missle!

344 >>>I'm really late to this party, but here's the few things I feel I ought to toss in: I like 4th edition, it's what my gaming group plays when we play fantasy games. I never understood all the hate the system received, nor the complaint that it was "Tabletop WoW." Those arguments just never seemed coherent to me. Remember when d20 was doing lots of different genres of games? And they'd create all these dumb feats, just because they needed to have them. Like, a Pirate would have the Feat "Can hold knife in teeth while climbing rope." Dumb for several reasons, but on a design level, what's worst about it is that it implies that no one else can do that, without the specific power to do so. Which then makes you begin to wonder-- is this a positivistic game? In other words, can I only do those things I have a positivistic statement that I can do? See, I would assume anyone can grit a knife in his teeth. But if you start making more and more speciality powers "allowing" characters to do that, it creates the sense they can only do what they specifically have on their character sheet. 4e took this trend still further. You have a bunch of highly-specific attack powers which imply that you can't do other sorts of higly-specific attacks. After all, you had your chance to choose that, and didn't. So now you're the guy who blinds people every combat. Not the guy who occasionally binds a guy but sometimes, I don't know, grapples him. Video games are like this, by their very nature-- everything you do must be specifically coded for. If it hasn't been coded for, you can't do it, right? It's impossible. If the game hasn't been specifically coded to note "this wall is climbable" then you cannot try to climb it. Your character will just sit there by the wall, walking into it. That's the problem with 4e. It has attempted to code everything. And, having failed to code everyting (because that's impossible), it relies on a restrictive assumption that you can basically just do the things your character is coded to do. Your thief either can make a blinding attack to the eyes or he can't. This was probably done in an effort to limit possibitlies to a manageable number (a very large number of possibilities paralyzes people, and slows down decisionmaking, and is also unsatisfying, because they're always wondering if there were other possiblities they falied to consider). However, it is videogamey in just this way. You are either specifically coded to do something or you are not coded to do something. Further all these "choices" you have a re kind of bullshit. You could make a general rule that once per combat a fighter can make an attack and also attempt his choice of imposing a condition (blinded, slowed, whatever) and just have that single option, with several varieties, stand in for 60 highly specific powers in the book. A lot of these aren't real choices. They give the illusion of choice by seriously limiting your default starting assumed range of powers to almost zero, then letting you choose from a brief menu of specific things you can do every combat. Whereas in the old system it assumed a large range of things you could do. No choosing necessary; you could just do them. Now that system is slow and prone to abuse but a simple system -- you have two Power-Up tokens to deploy each combat, choose from this list of possible moves when you deploy them -- would be a decent compromise, limiting abuse, restricting this sort of maneuver to just an occasional thing. You don't have to go, as it were, Full Retard on limiting everyone to four basic attacks which are all pretty much the same thing anyhow. There's a lot of this positive-coding mentality in 4e. Plus I don't think it makes things simpler. Honestly, I haven't played, but the rules are very thick and very detailed and very bitchy. If your response to bitchy complexity is just a different kind of bitchy complexity, you've erred. Frankly I think 4e sucks and 3e pretty much sucked in a different way. The game is rules heavy, which would almost be justifiable if it provided some kind of super-detailed combat system with critical hits and crap (like Rolemaster), but in fact it's rules heavy in the service of abstraction piled upon abstraction. D&D doesn't simulate anything except D&D. And I need a super-heavy ruleset for that?

345 now please pretend I didn't write all that.

346 by the way these powers are dumb. I never read a conan story where conan used his special power to blind someone for a single six second round. it's over-complicating things not *towards* simulation but directly *away from* simulation. 90% of wounds will just be wounds imposing the same problem (weakness, bleeding, dying). Or killin' ya, out right. This specificity of "this attack blinds the guy for a single round" is silly. If you've got your knife in the guy's face, he's either dead or on the ground, out of the fight.

347 Now I "slide" this giant dragon three squares with my "Soaring Eagles Attack"" power. What? This is a case where the dumb abstract rules of the game were actually closer to simulation than these baroquely complex rules, "sliding" huge creatures around the battlefield, as if they have no more mass than a dog. And the dumb abstract rules did not simulate anything, either. But at least people didn't trot out their special "Let me blind someone for six seconds" power every fight. Dumb, dumb, dumb. And this model is in fact derived straight from World of Warcraft, your Power chains or whatever they're called.

348 Ace's preferences in descending order: light rules but highly realistic and detailed (impossible) light rules, not so realistic and detailed but still light heavy rules, but realistic and detailed. heavy rules which are very unrealistic and not detailed, or detailed in jackass ways (I blind a guy for three seconds with a sword blow to the face that somehow does not put him out of the fight) The top three are fine. D&D has decided to go both rules-heavy and utterly abstract and unrealistic, the worst possible combination of choices.

349 Whatever happened to Empire of the Petal Throne?

350 Nerd.

351 I was #hacked!

352 Rogue Trader! Rogue Trader!  Come to the Warhammer 40,000 universe where you can have anything from powerful swords and artifacts to bare breasted women to starships and laserguns that go pewpewpew!

353

"Whereas in the old system it assumed a large range of things you could do. No choosing necessary; you could just do them."

Yup. And any experienced DM could roll with whatever mad "skill" you could throw at him.

DM: "Okay, you want to blind the guy with that fistful of sand you just grabbed?  Make a Dex check at -4 because of the rain. If he fails a R/S/W save we'll assume his clearing dirt out of his eyes for the next round"

And it worked. In fact, some of the funnest instances I remember were when players thought outside the box and Murphy decided to bless/curse them.

One guy even got accidentily impaled by a penguin...