March 05, 2013
— Ace Quick update: I half-recommended Voegelin's book before actually reading it. Now halfway through this particular (long) essay, I think his quest to link gnosticism to Naziism and Communism is a bit of a failure. Kind of interesting, though.
In reading this I've discovered what anyone who's studied philosophy already knew: These guys spend an awful lot of time on "Being." Plato was talking about Being 3000 years ago. Maybe time to move on? Maybe move on to the next step after Being?
No?
We're just going to stay on that, huh?
For how long?
Well, admittedly, occasionally they will shake things up and talk about Knowing.
I've decided to publish my own book on my own philosophical excursions. A tentative table of contents follows; don't hold me to this.
Introduction .......................................... p. ix
Part 1: Being ........................................... p. 1
Part 2: Knowing ...................................... p. 335
Part 3: The Knowingness of Being .......... p. 412
Part 4: The Beingness of Knowing .......... p. 525
Part 5: Real World Applications ............. p. 633
Index ........................................................ p. 636
Posted by: Ace at
12:07 PM
| Comments (175)
Post contains 187 words, total size 1 kb.
Here's some philosophy for you:
Happiness is a warm puppy drone strike on U.S. soil against U.S. citizens.
Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at March 05, 2013 12:10 PM (ggRof)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 05, 2013 12:11 PM (4cRnj)
Posted by: brenttemp at March 05, 2013 12:11 PM (0AX8H)
Posted by: Chris at March 05, 2013 12:11 PM (xMfYJ)
Posted by: Judge_Roy_Bean at March 05, 2013 12:12 PM (cCxiu)
Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/i][/u][/b] at March 05, 2013 12:12 PM (4df7R)
And I know you said "don't hold you to this" in terms of the table of contents but aren't we being a tad optimistic with the massive length of the 'applications' chapter?
Posted by: Sgt. York at March 05, 2013 12:12 PM (FL9pc)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at March 05, 2013 12:12 PM (fMgJk)
Posted by: Vic at March 05, 2013 12:13 PM (53z96)
Being .....Zen
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at March 05, 2013 12:13 PM (QzKtb)
Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at March 05, 2013 12:14 PM (X+nFp)
"To do is to be" - Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Sinatra
Posted by: eleven at March 05, 2013 12:14 PM (KXm42)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:14 PM (evdj2)
Posted by: St. Nicholas at March 05, 2013 12:14 PM (MDr17)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:15 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: LexisTexas at March 05, 2013 12:15 PM (kPFAg)
Volume II
Self-Discovery
Chapter 1: Did You Know That We Have Pee-Pee's?
Chapter 2: How To Use Your Pee-Pee
Chapter 3: Why Pee-Pee's Are Important
Posted by: soothsayer at March 05, 2013 12:15 PM (9Q7Nu)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:16 PM (evdj2)
@17
It makes a lot more sense to me when I'm stinking drunk. You know, where you're sweaty and your sweat reeks of alcohol, and for some reason I have the urge to smoke even though I hate smoking. Yeah, there. Then it makes sense.
I've never done drugs, but I'm sure its a similar experience. Everything is deeper when you're out of your fucking gord.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:16 PM (t06LC)
Vagina gazing is much more productive.
Posted by: Have a Vagina Cupcake at March 05, 2013 12:16 PM (cg2Hw)
Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at March 05, 2013 12:16 PM (X+nFp)
Posted by: Jones in CO at March 05, 2013 12:17 PM (8sCoq)
One of the best naps I ever had was listening to Deprak Chopra ramble on about "being" at a conference I attended several years ago.
OT: Just read where the Visitor's Office at the White House has announced that they are cancelling tours of the WH starting March 9th due to the sequester. These lying prigs are really deep into it now.
And Jan the Man Napolitano said that waiting times at LAX are up 150-200% due to the sequester. The head honcho at LAX replied that this was not true and ops were normal.
Posted by: Cheri at March 05, 2013 12:17 PM (G+Wff)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at March 05, 2013 12:18 PM (9Bj8R)
Posted by: ace at March 05, 2013 12:18 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Boeing at March 05, 2013 12:18 PM (71LDo)
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:19 PM (t06LC)
gnosticism -> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at March 05, 2013 12:19 PM (QzKtb)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 04:15 PM (kXoT0)
What.the.hell. is wrong with me. I read "anal scarring" in there and had to go back and check it again. *rubs temples* Must still be thinking about that post about Krugman.
Posted by: Heralder at March 05, 2013 12:19 PM (+xmn4)
United Nations: States that have legalized marijuana are violating INTERNATIONAL TREATIES!!eleven!!!1
http://tinyurl.com/aqtgezm
How long until the left argues that we don't have to listen to the UN?
Posted by: Washington Nearsider at March 05, 2013 12:19 PM (fwARV)
Posted by: Yip at March 05, 2013 12:19 PM (/jHWN)
Modern Philosophy
by Lena Dunham
Chapter 1: OMG, I have boobs!
Chapter 2: OMG, what is this thing between my legs?
Chapter 3: Let me show you something you have never seen in the last two minutes
Chapter 4: Isn't what I discovered so interesting!?!
Posted by: soothsayer at March 05, 2013 12:19 PM (9Q7Nu)
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Knows it's going to kill us all. at March 05, 2013 12:20 PM (VtjlW)
Posted by: Meghan McCain at March 05, 2013 12:20 PM (evdj2)
Posted by: Penfold at March 05, 2013 12:20 PM (Fbt5B)
Wow, just, wow!
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:20 PM (kXoT0)
What I learned about Stoicism I learned from Eastwood and Wayne. That's all I need.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:21 PM (t06LC)
Posted by: philosoph0123 at March 05, 2013 12:21 PM (XiQ0n)
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at March 05, 2013 12:21 PM (R8hU8)
Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable. Heideggar, Heideggar was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Schoppenhauer and Hegel. And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nieizsche couldn't teach 'ya 'bout the raising of the wrist. Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.
John Stewart Mill, of his own free will On half a pint of shanty was particularly ill. Plato they say could stick it away, Half a crate of whiskey every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle, And Hobbes was fond of his dram. And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart. 'I drink, therefore I am.'
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed; A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Posted by: Mr. Dave in SPI at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (xiaOm)
Posted by: kbdabear at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (mCvL4)
Posted by: Barack Obama student of philosophy at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (m2CN7)
Finally found this written somewhere. Via Weasel Zippers\ quoting Mother Jones
\
http://is.gd/lg8pGX
Yes, the president does have the authority to use military force against American citizens on US soil—but only in “an extraordinary circumstance,” Attorney General Eric Holder said in a letter to Senator Rand Paul (R-Ky.) Tuesday.
And yes, he is talking about doing it without a trial.
He quote 911 and Pear Harbor but for drone strikes that is immaterial.
Posted by: Vic at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (53z96)
Maybe move on to the next step after Being?
No?
We're just going to stay on that, huh?
For how long?
When we can with certainty, to the extent that no contemplative philosopher can disagree, whether or not a supreme being in the form of ultimate moral authority exists. Then we can move on to knowing. Until then the most fundamental question about our very existence remains unanswered.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose DOOMCASTER! at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (0q2P7)
Put on the funny hats, break out the cheap champagne, and party like it's 1999. If we can attract a fresh batch of rubes their money can push this old nag up another 2-3%
Hell it might go up another 5% I sure don't have a crystal ball.
Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (epxV4)
It's not really coherent or anything, but it's philosophy.
Posted by: Blanco Basura at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (xKC/c)
The one that describes the deep and abiding love that Mooch and Barky have for each other.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:22 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: MaxMBJ at March 05, 2013 12:23 PM (deaac)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 04:20 PM (kXoT0)
Yeah, I was all: Anal Scarring You Guys! Then I was confused and troubled.
Posted by: Heralder at March 05, 2013 12:23 PM (+xmn4)
Pixy is a real person. However, you are likely upset at robo-pixy. Whom Pixy lets eat our ampersands.
Posted by: MikeTheMoose DOOMCASTER! at March 05, 2013 12:24 PM (0q2P7)
Put on the funny hats, break out the cheap
champagne, and party like it's 1999. If we can attract a fresh batch of rubes their money can push this old nag up another 2-3%
Hell it might go up another 5% I sure don't have a crystal ball.
Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at March 05, 2013 04:22 PM
That sequester really slammed the Dow, didn't it
Posted by: kbdabear at March 05, 2013 12:24 PM (mCvL4)
Posted by: Tex Lovera at March 05, 2013 12:24 PM (wtvvX)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 05, 2013 12:25 PM (hEr50)
I like those "Philosophy and (insert pop culture refrence here)" books. It helps make this crap interesting and relatable. I think I have Philosophy and the Simpsons, Terminator, Batman, Zelda, and Inception.
A little more fun. Still a waste of time.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:25 PM (t06LC)
Damn. There goes my plan to load up on hard boiled eggs, baked beans and cheap beer before going on a tour of the White House.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at March 05, 2013 12:25 PM (SY2Kh)
Put on the funny hats, break out the cheap
champagne, and party like it's 1999. If we can attract a fresh batch of rubes their money can push this old nag up another 2-3%
Hell it might go up another 5% I sure don't have a crystal ball.
Posted by: SpongeBob Saget at March 05, 2013 04:22 PM
With the Fed's money injections, the Dow's surge is happening for the same reason that Barry Bonds started hitting tons of home runs in the late 90s
Posted by: kbdabear at March 05, 2013 12:26 PM (mCvL4)
Posted by: James Marshall Hendrix at March 05, 2013 12:26 PM (xiaOm)
Posted by: Bigby's Interposing Thumb-in-the-Eye at March 05, 2013 12:26 PM (3ZtZW)
there's more philosophy offered in Hotel California than the shit these people are pushing
for instance: "We are all prisoners of our own device."
So true, so true.
Posted by: soothsayer at March 05, 2013 12:26 PM (9Q7Nu)
Posted by: Heralder at March 05, 2013 04:23 PM (+xmn4)
Nah, I was really referring the skinny girls with the with the Kool-Aid dyed hair who cut themselves in order to "feel" something.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:27 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: Icedog at March 05, 2013 12:27 PM (9ScGj)
Posted by: MaxMBJ at March 05, 2013 12:27 PM (deaac)
Posted by: SpongeBob Saget
That sequester really slammed the Dow, didn't it
Posted by: kbdabear
Barky and Co forgot to tell Helicopter Ben to turn of the POMO for March.
Only one trading day in March that won't have $0.75 billion to $5.75 billion in repo's.
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at March 05, 2013 12:27 PM (fMgJk)
It's in the footnotes.
Posted by: mama winger at March 05, 2013 12:28 PM (P6QsQ)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at March 05, 2013 12:28 PM (9Bj8R)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:28 PM (evdj2)
It is nothing more than a device the MFM uses to to make up shit about the economy.
Posted by: Vic at March 05, 2013 12:28 PM (53z96)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 04:27 PM (kXoT0)
Oh, that would explain why I was thinking about Krugman. Thanks!
Posted by: Heralder at March 05, 2013 12:29 PM (+xmn4)
Never sit anywhere in East St. Louis, drive through it quickly and carefully.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:29 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at March 05, 2013 12:29 PM (+z4pE)
Posted by: joncelli, dodging the Zombies of Sequester at March 05, 2013 12:30 PM (RD7QR)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at March 05, 2013 04:29 PM (+z4pE)
I learned all that from Brother Dave Gardner in the late 50s.
Posted by: Vic at March 05, 2013 12:30 PM (53z96)
Yeah, because the NYT's bestseller list is a major cultural improvement.
Posted by: Jason at March 05, 2013 12:30 PM (6VB4r)
So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key.
Posted by: angler at March 05, 2013 12:31 PM (SwjAj)
John Stuart Mill does have the best quote about war even if he did like to knock back a few.
Posted by: polynikes at March 05, 2013 12:31 PM (m2CN7)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:31 PM (evdj2)
It is nothing more than a device the MFM uses to to make up shit about the economy.
Posted by: Vic at March 05, 2013 04:28 PM
Since we were supposed to collapse under the sequester, I don't think they'll be running the "prosperity montage" tonight
Posted by: kbdabear at March 05, 2013 12:31 PM (mCvL4)
Ace's new book
A quick one while he's away: The true story of one cuckhold's life in the shadows.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:31 PM (t06LC)
I always liked the line, "You can check out anytime you like, but, you can never leave."
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:31 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: Chauncey Gardner at March 05, 2013 12:32 PM (+kvQd)
Head Honcho at LAX now looking for a job. Bob Menendez looking for his number..."Oh...you mean the guy in charge...nevermind.
Posted by: Paladin at March 05, 2013 12:32 PM (WujO7)
Posted by: joncelli, dodging the Zombies of Sequester at March 05, 2013 04:30 PM
Let me check my purse
Posted by: Ashley Judd at March 05, 2013 12:32 PM (mCvL4)
Posted by: Nevergiveup at March 05, 2013 12:32 PM (9Bj8R)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:33 PM (evdj2)
Posted by: Darii at March 05, 2013 12:33 PM (mb/Rd)
What, no section on hermeneutics? How do you expect to connect Parts 3 and 4 together?
With duct tape.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at March 05, 2013 12:33 PM (+z4pE)
Posted by: Chauncey Gardner at March 05, 2013 12:34 PM (+kvQd)
Posted by: Fake Nietzsche at March 05, 2013 12:34 PM (hEr50)
Oh. Does this mean I can't punch Commies in the face like I did with Arius?
Obama said to make the sequester as painful as possible. I recommend the punch, and a good heavy kick to the cods for good measure. Then explain, "You're Welcome", and walk away.
Posted by: Sticky Wicket at March 05, 2013 12:34 PM (eyJh9)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:34 PM (evdj2)
I like the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy Corgans line -
'Despite all our rage we're still just rats in a cage'
Posted by: polynikes at March 05, 2013 12:34 PM (m2CN7)
Posted by: Waldo Truth at March 05, 2013 12:35 PM (5PMD3)
Posted by: Jane D'oh at March 05, 2013 12:35 PM (UOM48)
It's like, we all know what a "slasher movie" is, and what the genre means and how it works, so we don't feel like we need to see many (if any) of them. We "get" them. The black guy dies first and the girl who survives is the virginal one. We know...so long as we don't check.
(Spoiler: The black guy dies second to last and the girl who survives is the one who has a plan.)
Posted by: oblig. an sich at March 05, 2013 12:35 PM (cePv8)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:35 PM (evdj2)
Another drone ???
(CNN) -- An unmanned drone came within 200 feet of a commercial jet over New York, triggering an FBI appeal to the public for any information about the unusual and potentially dangerous incident.
The crew of Alitalia Flight 608 approaching John F. Kennedy airport on Monday reported the sighting.
"We saw a drone, a drone aircraft," the pilot can be heard telling air traffic controllers on radio calls captured by the website LiveATC.net.
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at March 05, 2013 12:36 PM (7QZ6R)
Part 5: Real World Applications ............. p. 633
---------
Real world applications? That doesn't sound very philosophical!
Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda who has an actual philosophy degree at March 05, 2013 12:36 PM (xGZ+b)
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Knows it's going to kill us all. at March 05, 2013 12:36 PM (VtjlW)
Posted by: Suppressed Flasher at March 05, 2013 12:36 PM (X+nFp)
How is duct tape akin to the Force?
It has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit. at March 05, 2013 12:36 PM (+z4pE)
Then I realized it wasn't long enough for one of Ace's movie reviews.
*I'm going to hell for that, I know*
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 05, 2013 12:36 PM (Tgggp)
small balls add up you dumb prick-March 05, 2013 04:32 PM (9Bj8R)
---
"Small ball" must be the term of the week. Mother Jones has an on-line headline today: Small Ball Gun Legislation Nearing a Vote in the Senate.
Posted by: RioBravo at March 05, 2013 12:38 PM (eEfYn)
Posted by: Chauncey Gardner at March 05, 2013 12:38 PM (+kvQd)
Dammit, now I WANT to see ergie!
Posted by: kbdabear at March 05, 2013 12:38 PM (mCvL4)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:38 PM (evdj2)
@143
That is awesome.
I saw were Chuck Norris came out in support of the second amendment. Of course, to be fair, he did come out for boot control citing the utter lethality that is a roundhouse kick to the face.
Compared to those, guns are less than lethal devices.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:39 PM (t06LC)
We Saw Your Drones!
Posted by: Seth MacFarlane at March 05, 2013 12:40 PM (mCvL4)
A quick outline:
Topic:
- Life?
Topology:
- evolution vs. creationism
- atheism vs. theism
- disbelief vs. belief
- faith vs. faith
- delusion vs illusion
- dishonesty vs. sincerity
- persecution vs. recrimination
Compromise:
- Life?
Bwahahaha!
Meta-Corollary:
-When you least expect it, consciousness will skull fuck you coming and going!
Posted by: Fritz at March 05, 2013 12:41 PM (WM+rJ)
@123
Aristotle wasn't just an asshole philosopher. His acedemy also began what we would now call the sciences such as physics. Pythagoras (famous for his theorem) was not only a mathmatician but leader of a philosopher cult.
Its the german philosophers who sucked balls and tried (maybe sucessfully) to bring down western civ.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 05, 2013 12:42 PM (t06LC)
143 Did you know that the whispering motif used in the Octagon both reflects and rejects the need to reach towards a higher power for assistance in times of need? The calls carry with them the characteristics of prayer, yet the Being who is being asked for assistance is Norris himself. This demonstrates that man is complete, in and of Himself, and there is no longer any need to maintain the facade of religion to mask Power.
---------
I bet you're fun at cocktail parties.
Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at March 05, 2013 12:42 PM (xGZ+b)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:42 PM (evdj2)
Songs like...
Horse with no name
Hotel California
And on and on....
Now I realize I was looking for depth and meaning that just wasn't there.
That's why Bon Jovie worked.
Big Hair, shallow thinking, and loose chicks.
What wasn't there to love?
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 05, 2013 12:42 PM (Tgggp)
Farmer tells his neighbor, "Junior got his BS. You know what that means?"
Neighbor replies, "Sure do, Bull Squirt."
A couple of years later, farmer tells his neighbor, "Junior got his MS. You know what that means?"
Neighbor replies, "Sure do, More Squirt."
A couple of years later, farmer tells his neighbor, "Junior got his PHD. You know what that means? I got no idea myself."
Neighbor replies, "Sure do, Piled Higher and Deeper."
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:42 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:45 PM (evdj2)
I would add that it's a special kind of wonder, not one everyone feels or feels the need to pursue if they feel it.
Parmenides said of his poem about Being, "I tell you this truth as it revealed itself, so that no man's opinion may ever get the better of you". I've always liked that idea that even if some asshole seems to have the upper hand in an argument, you can always say "Yeah, well what about Being, asshole? Where's your proof that your argument takes Being into account?". They usually just back away slowly and I can go back to drinking my beer.
Posted by: BS Inc. at March 05, 2013 12:49 PM (dzgSq)
Such talk is more a preoccupation of Continental thinkers, e.g. Heidegger, and French "public intellectual" blowhards. A fair summation of the Anglophone view might be Quine's "to be...is to be the value of a variable."
Posted by: Doug at March 05, 2013 12:50 PM (7/2hB)
Posted by: Darii at March 05, 2013 12:51 PM (mb/Rd)
I think the proper Zen response is to laugh, not at, but in appreciation of a moment of being that both reflects and rejects. . . .yin/yang dualism of need. . .
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at March 05, 2013 12:53 PM (QzKtb)
Posted by: ace at March 05, 2013 12:54 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Darii at March 05, 2013 12:54 PM (mb/Rd)
Posted by: ace at March 05, 2013 12:58 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 12:58 PM (evdj2)
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Knows it's going to kill us all. at March 05, 2013 04:36 PM (VtjlW)
I was liberal arts, a Literature major, and learned proper academic duckspeak (and can still hum the rhythms of it when I want to bullshit someone). I hated it. I hated that I had to use it to get a decent grade.
I loved symbolic logic, though. Found I had a knack for it. One of the few things I learned in college that I kept close as an adult.
Posted by: troyriser at March 05, 2013 01:00 PM (vtiE6)
Then, find the passage labeled "The City of Pigs." That is the key passage to the whole folderol. All the later classism and definitions of the good life are made necessary by the discussion group's refusal to live as simple farmers. And Plato, being a playwright, knew this as he laid it out. In Attic, the jokes are pretty clear.
Go ahead, look it up. Its in Book 2. It's a killer.
Posted by: comatus at March 05, 2013 01:01 PM (qaVK+)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 05, 2013 01:16 PM (evdj2)
Posted by: theCork at March 05, 2013 01:30 PM (hbAdE)
I did not comment on yesterday's thread but have to say that Voegelin's concept of gnosticism is way off. Simply a rival form of Christianity (of which there were many at the time) and rather harmless in the main. I fear Voegelin did not study that aspect of early Christianity but rather came to his conclusions by forcing the issue and claiming for Gnosticism a sort of Platonism which doesn't quite fit, particularly in Plato's theory of forms.
If none of this makes any sense read Bart Ehrman or Elaine Pagels both of whom are a lot better at explaining this stuff than I am.
Posted by: Libra at March 05, 2013 01:48 PM (q5QAW)
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Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Wily Wrepublican Wench at March 05, 2013 12:09 PM (kXoT0)