May 11, 2013

Because the disconnect between the Left and economics isn't quite complete.....[CBD]
— Open Blogger

The brilliance that is the Washington Post has seen fit to publish a blog post that completes the circle of profound ignorance of all economic thought that has been validated by...you know...reality.

[Via Nedermeyer's Dead Horse]

Posted by: Open Blogger at 11:30 AM | Comments (398)
Post contains 54 words, total size 1 kb.

1 Um. About the only thing I can intelligently say about that is "First!"

Posted by: rickl at May 11, 2013 11:31 AM (sdi6R)

2 In my rush to be "First!", I confess that I didn't read the whole article; just the headline. But that was enough.

Posted by: rickl at May 11, 2013 11:32 AM (sdi6R)

3 I want to be the first to go off topic whatever the topic is  anyway.

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 11:33 AM (fsLdt)

4 Apparently the topic is being first  or  something.

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 11:34 AM (fsLdt)

5 I didn't even need to read past the first paragraph. Math, how does it fucking work?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:35 AM (GEICT)

6 I want to be the first to go off topic whatever the topic is anyway. Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 03:33 PM (fsLdt) Heard of a flat tax? Some asshat is floating a flat income. Which means that folks flat aint gonna do shit ever again.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 11:35 AM (XIxXP)

7 Utopianism kills.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 11:35 AM (MMC8r)

8 Not any more.

Posted by: rickl at May 11, 2013 11:35 AM (sdi6R)

9 Is it true that Ace made it mandatory for commenters to launch personal attacks on the cobloggers or else we're banned?

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 11:36 AM (pxDth)

10 Is it true that Ace made it mandatory for commenters to launch personal attacks on the cobloggers or else we're banned? Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 03:36 PM (pxDth) So close, you are so close.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 11:36 AM (XIxXP)

11 9 Is it true that Ace made it mandatory for commenters to launch personal attacks on the cobloggers or else we're banned? Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 03:36 PM (pxDth) That's absolutely accurate.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:39 AM (GEICT)

12 Math, how does it fucking work? I don't even think they understand the economics of their own profession. They seem to go out of their way to get people to buy fewer newspapers.

Posted by: AmishDude at May 11, 2013 11:39 AM (T0NGe)

13 Heh. To pull in minimum wage flipping burgers you at least have to show up for your shift now and then. This new UBI would make it more fair for those who don't want to do even that much.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 11:39 AM (pxDth)

14 When we left the last thread,  Muad'dib was chasing a longhorn steer on his 4-wheeler,  along with 5 guys on horseback who can rope.  The longhorn likes hanging around at his place,  but the neighbors want him back.

My Saturdays are SO uneventful!

Posted by: Miss Marple at May 11, 2013 11:40 AM (GoIUi)

15 I don't even think they understand the economics of their own profession. They seem to go out of their way to get people to buy fewer newspapers. Posted by: AmishDude at May 11, 2013 03:39 PM (T0NGe) These idiots would declare that 2 + 2 always equaling 4 is unfair to 3 and 5.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:40 AM (GEICT)

16

Flat  income?  Holy schnikes.  That's full retard.

 

Even the Chinese wouldn't do  some  silly  shit  like  that.   Communists who are communist know better than that.

 

You have  to  go to college to  believe  something that fucking stupid.

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 11:41 AM (fsLdt)

17 "a basic income was once at the forefront of politics, it has since become more of a Utopian, abstract project. But sometimes it is helpful to step back from the day-to-day wonk work and think Utopian."
----------------

Why?  Why is that helpful?

Posted by: mama winger at May 11, 2013 11:42 AM (P6QsQ)

18 Honestly, I'd rather have a universal basic income than the hodge-podge of bullshit social programs we have now.

Why? Because it's transparent and also because it maximizes personal choice (within the confines of the welfare state.)

Can't afford health insurance because you spent your stipend on booze and cigarettes? Lump it. Everyone got the same thing. You wasted yours.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. In the real world, the government would "give" (steal from others) everyone a basic income and when the layabouts and slackers wasted what they had been given, they'd steal more from the productive citizens to buy off the poor. Just like they do now.

Posted by: Warden at May 11, 2013 11:43 AM (0DlnM)

19 Why? Why is that helpful? Posted by: mama winger at May 11, 2013 03:42 PM (P6QsQ) Because these freaking tards believe in equality of outcome over equality of opportunity.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:43 AM (GEICT)

20 14 When we left the last thread, Muad'dib was chasing a longhorn steer on his 4-wheeler, along with 5 guys on horseback who can rope. The longhorn likes hanging around at his place, but the neighbors want him back. My Saturdays are SO uneventful! Posted by: Miss Marple at May 11, 2013 03:40 PM (GoIUi) ***** Heck, you can play that game without the longhorn. It's hard to get someone to volunteer to be on the ATV though.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 11:44 AM (pxDth)

21 So much fail...so much fail. Can the Koch brothers buy the WaPo too?

Posted by: Chandler's Ghost at May 11, 2013 11:44 AM (9JS/n)

22 "Think Utopian " I'm having about 25 million utopian thoughts right. now.

Posted by: Bill Ayers at May 11, 2013 11:45 AM (ipoBj)

23 This reminds me - I meant to email this story to you guys, and it fits right along this theme..... http://tinyurl.com/cffveqe "SOULARD, Mo. (KMOX) – Fast food workers at the Jimmy John’s in Soulard are picketing this afternoon demanding higher wages and union representation. They say they can’t survive on $7.35 an hour. Organizer Rev. Dr. Martin Rafana says the average age of a woman in the fast food industry is 32 years old, for all workers 28. “This is not a job for teenagers,” said Rafana. He hopes the strike at Jimmy John’s will prompt more organized strikes at other area fast food chains. “We’re not asking for the moon, we are asking for what these multi-billion dollar corporations can afford to pay.” Workers are asking for a sizable pay increase of about $15 an hour."

Posted by: Dave S. at May 11, 2013 11:45 AM (UvR6d)

24 "UBI would create greater equality by ending poverty and providing a minimum living standard. It would also increase bargaining power for workers, who could demand better working conditions with a safety cushion. As Erik Olin Wright argues in Envisioning Real Utopias, such bargaining power “will generate an incentive structure for employers to seek technical and organizational innovations that eliminate unpleasant work”


-------------


oh for the love of pete

Posted by: mama winger at May 11, 2013 11:46 AM (P6QsQ)

25 Workers are asking for a sizable pay increase of about $15 an hour." Posted by: Dave S. at May 11, 2013 03:45 PM (UvR6d) More than double. They're demanding that their pay more than double. And then JJ's would have to sharply increase their prices. And then people would stop going to JJ's. And then JJ's goes out of business and these geniuses would be out of work.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:47 AM (GEICT)

26 Wait. The welfare state isn't broke enough, so we need to put everyone on the dole?

Posted by: Ook? at May 11, 2013 11:47 AM (OQpzc)

27

Meh, it's an idea that's been tossed around in various forms by the right and left. 

 

A negative income tax has some arguments in its favor but reasonable people will admit that it has its drawbacks as well, just like every other solution out there.  Unfortunately the jackass author of this article is in no way "reasonable".

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 11, 2013 11:47 AM (lr3d7)

28 #24

Have these idiots determined what the prices on the menu would change to to achieve this demand? And what this would do to the likelihood anyone would choose to buy their food there?

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 11:47 AM (kcfmt)

29 Why just a base income?  Why don't we just give everyone in the country a billion damn dollars? 

P.J. O'Rourke proved in Parliament of Whores that we have no poverty in America.  Total poverty spending divided by number of people below the poverty line equals...well, you know.

How about instead of this bullshit, we get the private sector moving so that people can work?  I know, I know...I'm just being crazy or racist or greedy or something.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 11:47 AM (kNqmp)

30 A dummycrap is about as familiar with economic matters as Rosie O'Fat is with pleasing a man.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 11:48 AM (jucos)

31 Giving people money for doing nothing simply guarantees that they will do nothing. This is obvious to an idiot, yet so many insist that it isn't.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 11:48 AM (MMC8r)

32 Workers are asking for a sizable pay increase of about $15 an hour." Posted by: Dave S.

When they start paying 15, the people that are making 7.50 now will be out of work.  $30,000 a year to make sammiches? I'm on it.

Posted by: Bruce at May 11, 2013 11:49 AM (lWMBo)

33 Isn't UBI what they had on earth re: Star Trek TNG? No wait. They didn't have currency anymore on TNG.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 11:49 AM (4Mv1T)

34

..... a UBI would create greater equality by ending poverty and providing a minimum living standard. It would also increase bargaining power for workers, who could demand better working conditions with a safety cushion. .... such bargaining power “will generate an incentive structure for employers to seek technical and organizational innovations that eliminate unpleasant work,” which would “have not just a labor-saving bias, but a labor-humanizing bias.”

 

 

Um, OK.  Whatev..... Going for a beer and back to Card's game. 

Posted by: olddog in mo at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (A9na/)

35 On the other hand, if you cut out the government skim-off of welfare, you could probably give everyone a check without spending a lot more than now.

Posted by: Ook? at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (OQpzc)

36 Actually, it was Lacy who brought it to my attention. She's been giving it hell over on twitter.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (piMMO)

37 Free money means free dope.

Posted by: sTevo at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (VMcEw)

38 Read down further into the article where the writes swears government is better than the individual, that MEdicare is better than private insurance, and that Social Security program in better than a 401k plan.

Posted by: mama winger at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (P6QsQ)

39 Organizer Rev. Dr. Martin Rafana

i.e., shakedown artist

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (ltdV/)

40 Have these economic shit for brains never heard of inflation? Ask the Germans how that goes...

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:50 AM (GEICT)

41 Here's how it plays out in the real world. The rich would invest their $10000 The middle class would pay off some debt. The poor would squander. Didn't we see this exact dynamic with Bush's stimulus check?

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 11:51 AM (wsGWu)

42 WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal watchdog's upcoming report says senior Internal Revenue Service officials knew agents were targeting tea party groups in 2011. The disclosure contradicts public statements by former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman, who repeatedly assured Congress that conservative groups were not targeted. On Friday, the IRS apologized for what it acknowledged was "inappropriate" targeting of conservative political groups during the 2012 election to see if those groups were violating their tax-exempt status.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at May 11, 2013 11:51 AM (e8kgV)

43 make sammiches? I'm on it. Posted by: Bruce at May 11, 2013 03:49 PM (lWMBo) ***** Make me one while you're up, would you?

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 11:51 AM (pxDth)

44 Subsidize something and you will get more of it. In this case we are being told we should subsidize people whose highest aspiration is continued autonomic nervous function.

We are told we owe it to our fellow citizens. Complete and utter bullshit. The first and foremost duty any citizen has to another is to not be a parasite. When that is the commanding ethos of a free culture it turns out the number genuinely in need of charity is remarkably low and readily covered by private parties acting of their own volition.

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 11:51 AM (kcfmt)

45 Infovore  had  lots  and  lots  of  college.

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (fsLdt)

46 That means it doesn't incentivize people not to work or to work less. They get it no matter what. Reread that. And then apply the entirety of human history to it.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (GEICT)

47 BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 03:47 PM ----- Right. Not asking for the moon. Just a modest 105% increase. That's all. We just expand the base wage, then everything will cost a lot more, and then they'll still not have a living wage, and we'll do it all over again. Wait, that won't work. I have a novel thought here, and I know it's gonna sound kinda crazy. How about, expand your skill set. Use the experience to maybe become a manager. Maybe show you'll show up to work and hold a job and move up to a $10 and hr job, and then do it again in another year or so? Nah, that's crazy talk.

Posted by: Dave S. at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (UvR6d)

48 Jesus Motherfucking Christ in the arms of his mother driving a dump truck down I-5 to pick up the trash from a heavy metal concert outside Yuba City and take it back to dump on the lawn of the mayor of Weed. That's WaPo, going full-on EuroWelfareState, *verging* on communism (call it "weak form" communism). Seriously, anyone who thinks for a second of defending the idea, read the whole thing. "Decommodifying" housing, food, health care - taking them out of the market. "Transfer payments" for use of "public resources" like private property. Don't even look at the comments, though, I did and I'm scarred.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (qyfb5)

49 >>>"will generate an incentive structure for
employers to seek technical and organizational innovations that
eliminate unpleasant work”

So who the heck is going the clean out the grease traps at Burger King now?

Ever smelled that? I cleaned 'em in high school and poured it into a tin trash can out back. A can of vomit.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (4Mv1T)

50 Universal and unconditional? I really don't see any drawbacks. Oh hi Mr Unicorn, how are you today?

Posted by: RWC at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (Wl/Ht)

51 I got an idea. Why don't we (Uncle Sugar) just guarantee everyone a minimum $100k per year. I would be happy to keep my street clean for that. Hell, I might even show up to pick potatoes at the collective. Maybe.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (jucos)

52 That means it doesn't incentivize people not to work or to work less. They get it no matter what.

How about you go back and read this before you start calling people ignorant.  M'kay? 

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 11:52 AM (ltdV/)

53 I'm quite sure that this asshat's proposal is designed to go hand in hand with the recent British trial balloon of having all salaries paid via the government (businesses would pay wages direct to the govt, who would in turn issue the worker his paycheck). After all, that's the most efficient way to ensure that each person gets their minimum income check. *snort* And he talks about cash payments. My ass. It'll be special ATM cards drawn on government accounts rather like the current food stamp system. So that takes millions of small depositors out of the banks since they really won't need a separate bank account as they already live month-to-month. I'm a moron, so I'm not sure how that affects the banks or if they'd want that to happen.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 11, 2013 11:53 AM (MBqvE)

54
Protip: A Guaranteed Basic Income was considered by Nixon and the Republicans back in the 60s/early 70s.  "We're all Keynesians now" and so on.

Good times, good times....

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 11:53 AM (kdS6q)

55 2 In my rush to be "First!", I confess that I didn't read the whole article; just the headline.

You have a promising future in DC politics.

Posted by: Attila at May 11, 2013 11:53 AM (Cs2tJ)

56 This *might* work better if, oh, I don't know, we weren't 16 trillion + (and even more if you count unfunded liabilities) in the hole at present. Dear Lord.. Oh, and I pathetically chuckled at the examples given on how the gov't redistributes goods better than the private sector.

Posted by: Thrawn at May 11, 2013 11:53 AM (JqnAE)

57 There are certainly arguments against this, foremost being the paternalism argument that the people who need the most help are generally too stupid to make good choices with money. They are pretty persuasive. But the objections made so far in this thread are just knee-jerk ignorance.
Posted by: infovore

Okay, I'm all for it, as long as there are now crying shitwits on TV saying their starving and can't afford a decent flat screen. They fail on $10,000, they fall behind and get eaten by the hyenas...no boo hooing. No bail outs, no more taxes to help them. You feel sorry for them, YOU help them.

Posted by: Bruce at May 11, 2013 11:54 AM (lWMBo)

58 I know I invite ridicule thus am compelled to state that the following question is independent of a "Utopian" Universal Income. Question: If we accept the premise that welfare is here to stay and that we cannot reverse the direction, would it be more efficient to simply cut one all-encompassing check to welfare recipients to cover food, housing, and whatever else it is they receive these days, rather than having multiple government agencies distributing the funds?

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 11, 2013 11:54 AM (piMMO)

59
Oh, "Negative Income Tax" being the buzz phrase at the time.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 11:55 AM (kdS6q)

60 " the recent British trial balloon of having all salaries paid via the government (businesses would pay wages direct to the govt, who would in turn issue the worker his paycheck)." Oh hi, fascism.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 11:55 AM (wsGWu)

61 If we accept the premise that welfare is here to stay and that we cannot reverse the direction, would it be more efficient to simply cut one all-encompassing check to welfare recipients to cover food, housing, and whatever else it is they receive these days, rather than having multiple government agencies distributing the funds? Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 11, 2013 03:54 PM (piMMO) I don't accept the premise. I think it's a worthwhile goal to continue to fight the increase of welfare. If we can't eliminate it, fight to restrict it. Plus, reality says it won't work. People will get their check, they'll still be poor and then the movement to give the poor even more benefits/welfare will be on. Big govt, socialism, is never sated.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:56 AM (GEICT)

62 IF THEY WOULD ONLY STOP FIXING THINGS, I COULD GET SOME FUCKING SLEEP.

...sorry.  I need a nap.

I'll dream of a Utopia where I can get shot in the suburbs for some shoddily-produced UBI shoes.

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 11, 2013 11:56 AM (7gwGw)

63

We're not asking for  the  moon.  Just  give  us  the  moon.

 

Reverend Dr. Rafana (Church of Latter Day  Stealing Shit)

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 11:56 AM (fsLdt)

64 " the recent British trial balloon of having all salaries paid via the government (businesses would pay wages direct to the govt, who would in turn issue the worker his paycheck)."

Oh hi, fascism.

Or Damien Thorn.  Take your pick.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 11:56 AM (LYIrp)

65 (from the article) (after implementing basic universal income) But the question then becomes: What projects would still animate the left? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ha

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (vHxiM)

66 Also forgot to mention "Universal Union Membership" strongly indicated in the article. "Democracy that doesn't end at the office door." In other words, what the fuck is the point of running a business anyway? *office votes for pizza party seven days running*

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (qyfb5)

67 Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 03:50 PM (0llFJ) ***** Thank you for the cogent explanation. ...and for your concern.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (pxDth)

68 I'm sitting here today,  underemployed for years, I oversold my abilities on a project that I was barely qualified for, spent many sleepless days and nights obsessing over, and brought to fruition in a way that far exceeded my clients expectations. 

Fortune favors the bold.

Posted by: d_fitz at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (sYzMZ)

69 Plus, reality says it won't work. People will get their check, they'll still be poor and then the movement to give the poor even more benefits/welfare will be on. Big govt, socialism, is never sated. *** I'm guessing that if someone blows their insurance money, but shows up at the E.R., they are still going to receive treatment.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (piMMO)

70 Well well well..... Look at the big brain on infobore. Hey dummy.... Uncle Sugar does not spend a dollar until after they have taken it from someone else. Get it? It's either that or they borrow or print it. Not that difficult to understand.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (jucos)

71 That's absolutely accurate.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 03:39 PM (GEICT)

Unless the commenter is a perpetually drunken potato eater who paints himself blue and worships the moon, on the 17 days each year it can be seen through the overcast.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (O6Tmi)

72
At this point it looks like the free stuff army is 53% and growing so I don't know why they just don't call this idea of "universal basic income" by a name that actually says what it is:  How about "universally steal from some people and give the thievings to other people".

The thieves will still get at least 53% of the vote.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (jKWYf)

73 37 Commenters here are embarrassing me with their lack of understanding of this concept so I feel obligated to explain it Projection, she is a cruel bitch indeed. Tell me, how long have you lacked self-awareness?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 11:57 AM (WAgIq)

74 This is lunacy. It's also a good reason not to support the FairTax "prebate," which would inevitably morph into a UBI.

Posted by: JonathanEllis at May 11, 2013 11:58 AM (5i0ik)

75 R. A. Heinlein advocated that in his first book - For Us, The Living - finally published posthumously. He came to realize it was unworkable. First, you absolutely have to secure the borders from nearly any immigration, else you would import so many recipients it would collapse.

Posted by: Trelawney Hope at May 11, 2013 11:58 AM (ylG8S)

76 But if we're going.in, let's go all in. The government provides everything required for life and gives us an allowance to buy candy. Ah, the dream of Julia.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 11:58 AM (wsGWu)

77 Unless the commenter is a perpetually drunken potato eater who paints himself blue and worships the moon, on the 17 days each year it can be seen through the overcast. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 11, 2013 03:57 PM (O6Tmi) You shouldn't talk about CAC like that. His $700 binoculars can always see the moon.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 11:59 AM (GEICT)

78

Do you call yourself   Infovore  because  you  literally  devour  information?

 

 

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 12:00 PM (fsLdt)

79 You shouldn't talk about CAC like that. His $700 binoculars can always see the moon. Sure, because physically, he's usually only a 1/4 mile from it.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:01 PM (WAgIq)

80 Isn't UBI what they had on earth re: Star Trek TNG? No wait. They didn't have currency anymore on TNG. Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 03:49 PM (4Mv1T) Hence the term, science fiction.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 11, 2013 12:01 PM (MBqvE)

81

$1trillion is $20K for 50million persons. All I have to say with that is they have done it wrong for a while. The Stimulus could have made full employment. Just imagine the annual deficits we've had for 5 years and the redirection of that directly to the population, no laundering...well LESS laundering.

The article is typical leftist and utopian because there are no consequences mentioned.

Posted by: jk76 at May 11, 2013 12:01 PM (VKkox)

82 That biometric chip they are going to install in each and every adult in America?  They could pre-load it with $10,000 bucks every January 1st, scan us all like so much supermarket breakfast cereal, and we'd never have to carry money again.

Posted by: mama winger at May 11, 2013 12:03 PM (P6QsQ)

83 It would be a high-speed rail line straight to Idiocracy.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:03 PM (MMC8r)

84 Britain basically created a gigantic international fortune and then drained it creating a massive intergenerational welfare population. But, you know, fucking lessons are for wimps. The *really* brave people jump off of buildings, because, you know, someday *somebody* has to spontaneously develop telekinetic flight powers, and today might be your day, buddy! Really rich societies can talk about stuff like this. Until they're not really rich anymore.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:03 PM (qyfb5)

85 More than double. They're demanding that their pay more than double. And then JJ's would have to sharply increase their prices. And then people would stop going to JJ's. And then JJ's goes out of business and these geniuses would be out of work.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 03:47 PM (GEICT)


We had a union here who sued over a wage dispute.  The court ruled in their favor.  The company offered a settlement and warned that they would be forced to shut down because they couldn't afford to pay the judgment.  The union rejected it and demanded the judgment.  The company shut down and the union was somehow surprised and upset.  They were under the impression that the company was obligated to stay in business and provide them jobs.

Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at May 11, 2013 12:04 PM (1hekh)

86 The idiot who wrote this piece clearly doesn't understand economics at all.  Of course, he's a leftist, so that's a given.

Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at May 11, 2013 12:06 PM (1hekh)

87 Also, incentives? Screw that, incentive is reich-winger talk. Also, it would "replace" welfare like a national sales tax would "replace" income tax. In other words, "replace," in some circumstances, means "add to."

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:06 PM (qyfb5)

88 That biometric chip they are going to install in each and every adult in America? They could pre-load it with $10,000 bucks every January 1st, scan us all like so much supermarket breakfast cereal, and we'd never have to carry money again. Posted by: mama winger at May 11, 2013 04:03 PM (P6QsQ) --------------------------------------------------------- Now THAT is a good idea. I think we can wrap this all in to Obamacare and the sheeple will be ours......

Posted by: The Prince of Darkness at May 11, 2013 12:06 PM (jucos)

89 Also, it would "replace" welfare like a national sales tax would "replace" income tax. In other words, "replace," in some all circumstances, means "add to." Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at May 11, 2013 04:06 PM (qyfb5) Fixed.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:07 PM (GEICT)

90 You have to go to college to believe something that fucking stupid. I actually DID LOL reading that...wouldn't a "Thinking Utopians" first thought be that utopia is an unattainable* abstract? *In this lifetime...

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at May 11, 2013 12:07 PM (OXYW6)

91 " the recent British trial balloon of having all salaries paid via the government (businesses would pay wages direct to the govt, who would in turn issue the worker his paycheck)." Oh hi, fascism. Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 03:55 PM (wsGWu) I win.

Posted by: Zombie Oswald Mosley at May 11, 2013 12:08 PM (MBqvE)

92 That piece is sublime in its stupidity.

Posted by: Conservative Crank at May 11, 2013 12:08 PM (FqcJu)

93 Roddenberry's grand future was a fucking crock of moronic bullshit. The first point of this bilge to refute is that the combined wealth of society is a communal resource. The second is that any work has a minimum value, or that any individual has the right to demand the wealth of others by coercion or enforced obligation.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:09 PM (MMC8r)

94 A vanishing 7th dimensional new post by CAC...

... just vanished.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:09 PM (4Mv1T)

95 Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:07 PM (0llFJ) So I can sit on my ass all day and receive a payment. Can't possibly go wrong. How 'bout we cut the middleman and you just wire me some cash.

Posted by: RWC at May 11, 2013 12:10 PM (Wl/Ht)

96 Projection, she is a cruel bitch indeed. Tell me, how long have you lacked self-awareness? Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 03:57 PM (WAgIq) All us smart people gain our smarts early and start fighting with them at gestation, which you would know if you were one of us. Did someone mention sandwiches earlier, I could go for some of those.

Posted by: M. McCain at May 11, 2013 12:10 PM (Lqb+9)

97 Unless the commenter is a perpetually drunken potato eater who paints himself blue and worships the moon, on the 17 days each year it can be seen through the overcast. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 11, 2013 03:57 PM (O6Tmi) ***** Oh good. That means I'm exempt.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 12:10 PM (pxDth)

98 I can taste the almost-ripe corn now.  You see, my buddy is a big muckedy-muck in G-Sector near Iowa.  He can smuggle in some Tragedy of the Commons Sweet before the B-Sectors get to it!

I would light the candle, but Barry in W-Sector was found to be unreliable and eliminated. 

...it is also my last government match.

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 11, 2013 12:11 PM (7gwGw)

99

Here's my proposal:


-Universal income of $30,000.

-End all spending on welfare, social programs, and business subsidies.

-The right to vote each calendar year requires paying a voter registration fee of... $30,000. 

 

If someone wants to take that $30k and live off it, then fine for them.  However, they won't be able to afford to vote.  The productive class will gain a greater influence over the electoral process.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 11, 2013 12:11 PM (lr3d7)

100 sorry o/t

112 I'm still really bugged by Nakoula thing.

Some say well 'don't feel bad because He was a bad guy.'

ok but still isn't it the intent of Hillary and Obama to jail a private citizen for making a video they didn't like, an in doing that would have been breaking the Deal to uphold the Constitution when voted into office?
I mean when Hillary says, "We will make sure that the person who made that film is arrested and prosecuted" to Wood's father Isn't the INTENT what matters here?


Did They Know He was already lapsed on the Probation deal?


Did Obama and Hillary know that Nikoula had a history that could be prosecutable?


Posted by: willow at May 11, 2013 04:07 PM (nqBYe)




Posted by: willow at May 11, 2013 12:11 PM (nqBYe)

101 I saw stars.  Now they're gone.   Ministroke?

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 12:12 PM (fsLdt)

102 92 If you're in favor of vouchers rather than a government-run school system, you should be in favor of this. It's the exact same thing, except rather than just replacing government run schools, it replaces government everything with a voucher you can use to buy goods and services from private parties. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:07 PM (0llFJ) No. Vouchers are returning to you the money you already paid in to the public school system. UBI is giving everyone a flat amount of money, no matter what they've paid in. It'd be like if everyone got school vouchers, whether you have school age kids or not.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:12 PM (GEICT)

103 Hmmm. Get up every morning to labor for 8 hours or more, or couch/cheetos/teevee on the gummint 'dividend.' You pick.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:12 PM (MMC8r)

104 eleven perhaps they exploded?

Posted by: willow at May 11, 2013 12:13 PM (nqBYe)

105 If you're in favor of vouchers rather than a government-run school system, you should be in favor of this. It's the exact same thing, except rather than just replacing government run schools, it replaces government everything with a voucher you can use to buy goods and services from private parties. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:07 PM (0llFJ) Does the government get to say what that money can be spent on? Is it a lump sum? If the answers are no and yes, I could see people demanding the government give them more money by, let's say, the end of February.

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I am at May 11, 2013 12:13 PM (QR2k5)

106

That link has to be the stupidest   thing I've read today,   possibly for this entire week.

 

And I've   read a lot of stuff.

 

I've also forgotten more about economics than  the author of that article has  ever known.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 11, 2013 12:14 PM (+z4pE)

107 Broken Windows everywhere.

Posted by: wte9 at May 11, 2013 12:14 PM (6Tcdo)

108 Talk about the wrong week to stop sniffing glue...Ace picked the wrong weekend to go fartin' around on vacation.

Everything on the interweb is...'splodey.

Posted by: Lamontyoubigdummy at May 11, 2013 12:14 PM (Yv66T)

109 We tried this. You people are fucking idiots.

Posted by: Red China at May 11, 2013 12:15 PM (Zv1QB)

110 The Government Dividend is too low! No one can live on that with dignity! We propose that the minimum be indexed to inflation rather than economic growth so that wages never go down regardless of the amount society makes! We'll be recession proof!

Posted by: Future Politician, probably in a polyester pantsuit at May 11, 2013 12:15 PM (MMC8r)

111 I'll support a universal minimum income when we mine the borders and machine gun the survivors.

Posted by: SFGoth at May 11, 2013 12:16 PM (g9SL/)

112 #37

Arguments, yes. Intelligent arguments, no.


Everyone gets it. Meaning it soon becomes worthless and the cycle of whining and demands for handouts begins all over again.

You would get the same effect without any of the negatives if upon Jan. 1 of every year you gifted each and every citizen with a lump sum of ZERO.

Think about it. No new government bureaucracy is needed. The sum is completely immune to inflation and other forms of currency valuation changes. It would be perfect and meaningless as every other utopian plan, yet entirely realizable. The President need only mention it in the State of the Union address and that would be the sole basis for its existence.

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 12:16 PM (kcfmt)

113 Giving everyone a bag of money to buy cigarettes with is exactly the same as letting them use the tax dollars that they have paid to put their kid into a non-shithole school.

Yes, your logic is perfectly clear to me.

Please explain again how sheep bladders can be used to prevent earthquakes.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:18 PM (kNqmp)

114 I'll support a universal minimum income when we mine the borders and machine gun the survivors. Posted by: SFGoth at May 11, 2013 04:16 PM (g9SL/) Moats, crocodiles, giant mime clown spiders.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 11, 2013 12:19 PM (MBqvE)

115 Hello, my loves.  Everyone having a nice Saturday? 

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 12:19 PM (8lmkt)

116 Please explain again how sheep bladders can be used to prevent earthquakes. Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 04:18 PM (kNqmp) You fill them with air and then stand on them. The ground might shake, but you won't. And if you don't personally experience something, then it must not exist.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:20 PM (GEICT)

117 The most significant difference between a blank check and a school voucher is that only one can buy a big screen.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:20 PM (wsGWu)

118 Here's my proposal: -Universal income of $30,000. -End all spending on welfare, social programs, and business subsidies. -The right to vote each calendar year requires paying a voter registration fee of... $30,000. If someone wants to take that $30k and live off it, then fine for them. However, they won't be able to afford to vote. The productive class will gain a greater influence over the electoral process. --- Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 11, 2013 04:11 PM (lr3d7) I like it. I like it a LOT. Hell, jack it up to $100,000, and let's party!

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:20 PM (7vimm)

119 I'm sorry, I did not mean to kill the thread with my joie de vivre.  It probably won't happen again anytime soon. 

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 12:20 PM (8lmkt)

120 Ah, Monty Python reference FTW, I salute you.

Posted by: Conservative Crank at May 11, 2013 12:21 PM (FqcJu)

121 Krugman, is that you?

Posted by: RWC at May 11, 2013 12:21 PM (Wl/Ht)

122 119 Hello, my loves. Everyone having a nice Saturday? Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 04:19 PM (8lmkt) We're engaging in a rousing round of Kick the Retard.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:21 PM (GEICT)

123

Hey, Peaches!  I'm  just resting in between Honey-Do  jobs. Waiting for the NASCAR race, pondering whether   to go get   some more Guinness.

 

How's tricks?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 11, 2013 12:21 PM (+z4pE)

124 Peaches, this is the sheep bladder and school voucher thread.

Discuss.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:22 PM (4Mv1T)

125 We're engaging in a rousing round of Kick the Retard.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 04:21 PM (GEICT)


THAT'S MY FAVORITE!!!

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 12:22 PM (8lmkt)

126 Now we see Obama's Greatest Achievement- it's finally okay to be a complete communistic economic retard in public. No shame at all for your display of complete stupidity. Or maybe....we need a new gov't program that gives portable teleprompters to these jerkoffs.

Posted by: Staff at May 11, 2013 12:22 PM (G9qZk)

127 Plus, if you harvest all the sheep's'bladders they won't be able to get pissed off.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 12:23 PM (pxDth)

128
The one and only reason for vouchers is to escape a govt run system.  So being for them as an escape is not the same as not wanting the govt involved whatsoever.  The ultimate, at least from a conservative or libertarian is to get the govt out of education entirely.  The same goal for entitlements.  End them in their entirety.

ps - the proposers can never answer the inflation argument which is why they avoid it.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 11, 2013 12:23 PM (jKWYf)

129 Step 1.  Free Money
Step 2.
Step 3.  Utopia

Posted by: The Underwear Gnomes at May 11, 2013 12:23 PM (7gwGw)

130 If everybody gets a minimum, why should anybody get more than that? TAKE IT FROM THEM!!!!!

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:24 PM (MMC8r)

131 131 Plus, if you harvest all the sheep's'bladders they won't be able to get pissed off. Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 04:23 PM (pxDth) That was terrible. Excellent work.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:24 PM (GEICT)

132 Wow, what a comeback Yale has scored 8 unanswered points to close a 5 point deficit and take a 3 point lead. Awesome 3 and 4th quarter. Still on ESPNU.

Posted by: Staff at May 11, 2013 12:24 PM (G9qZk)

133 I was going to drag some quotes in from the article, because a lot of peeps seem to be skipping it, but it's short, just read it. But don't drink while reading it unless you like spitting liquid out of your nose.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:25 PM (qyfb5)

134 Hello, my loves. Everyone having a nice Saturday? Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 04:19 PM (8lmkt) It's a beautiful, sunny day in SoCal. The birds are singing, the sea air smells bracing. Which is why I'm sitting inside, unshaven and pantsless, playing video games and talking to you retards.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 11, 2013 12:25 PM (MBqvE)

135 Psh, inflation only exists when we're lecturing you about cost of living increases.

Posted by: Dems at May 11, 2013 12:26 PM (wsGWu)

136 There's an old saying. Gather up all the money, vouchers, whatever the currency. Distribute it evenly amongst everyone. Within ten years 10% of the people will have 90% of the money, vouchers, currency.

And I think that's a beautiful system.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:26 PM (4Mv1T)

137 Hmmm. Give everyone their money at the first of the year. Everything is pay as you go including medical services. If you spend your money on dope or other crap then tough shit. Hope you like eating air. Real shovel ready jobs created. Utopia, personal responsibility, and population control. A win-win for everyone.

Posted by: Hanoverfist at May 11, 2013 12:26 PM (F6NgH)

138 134 If everybody gets a minimum, why should anybody get more than that? TAKE IT FROM THEM!!!!! Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 04:24 PM (MMC8r) Green Party, during one of their "Nader Years," proposed a federal maximum income.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:26 PM (qyfb5)

139

18 Actually, this knee-jerk reaction is what's foolish. People who are economically savvy, or even moderately economically literate, enough to be familiar with the term "lump-sum grant" are well aware that there is a lot of economic logic to a guaranteed basic income or "citizen's dividend" as I prefer to call it, if we're going to have any kind of government redistribution at all.

 

Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 03:42 PM (0llFJ)

 

----------

 

So your entire outlook is based on the belief that "government redistribution" is...an imperative.

 

This has been tried before. It's called Communism.

 

Please cite an example where this has ever worked well.

 

Perhaps it has escaped your attention, that the biggest Communist Countries in the world have been moving towards Capitalism...and see it as a superior way to do things.

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 12:27 PM (LxEHG)

140 OK, it's back to work for me. Whoever's drinking now take a swig for me.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 11, 2013 12:27 PM (+z4pE)

141 Things that would be great:  Everyone is a millionaire and never pays taxes, consequence free oral sex on demand, no North Korea, flying cars that run on perpetual motion technology, and Big Macs that won't kill you.

Get on it, lefties.  I haven't got all damned day here.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:27 PM (kNqmp)

142 I was going to drag some quotes in from the article, because a lot of peeps seem to be skipping it, but it's short, just read it. Oh, I read it. Tough to get through that level of high-intensity stupid, actually, but I made it. The comments are in the process of making up for it. I suspect some Morons are weighing in over there.

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:27 PM (7vimm)

143 #34

They also had technology that was essentially magic. The transporter/replicator screws up everything. With that in place scarcely any story in the series makes sense.

Take an uninhabited star system and use a massive replicator to convert the whole mass and energy into a billion Defiants with a few billion copies of Data to serve as crew. (Which means you can do away with that pesky life support stuff in favor of more weapons and engines.) Instant unstoppable fleet. Dominion War lasts one episode.

You don't even need to do that. Build a big transporter and aim it at anything you don't like. It's reduced to an information stream that can simply be erased from existence by wiping the memory where it is stored.

Star Trek, especially by the TNG era and everything that followed, is not a good point of reference for anything like a possible future.

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 12:28 PM (kcfmt)

144 Green Party, during one of their "Nader Years," proposed a federal maximum income. "I do think at a certain point you've made enough money."

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:28 PM (7vimm)

145 We're all coming. Move over and make some room.

Posted by: Mexico at May 11, 2013 12:29 PM (sYTYw)

146 I thin the person that wrote that is mentally challenged to say the least. I am reading that one of TFG's chief of Benghazi operations is brother to president of CBS news. Now we know exactly why they are trying to get rid of Sharyl Attkission.

Posted by: CarolT at May 11, 2013 12:29 PM (z4WKX)

147 It's a beautiful, sunny day in SoCal. The birds are singing, the sea air smells bracing.

Which is why I'm sitting inside, unshaven and pantsless, playing video games and talking to you retards.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 11, 2013 04:25 PM (MBqvE)


It is an absolutely divine day here in Southern Clownifornia, ITC!  I hit Nordstom early and was home just after noon.  Now, instead of doing Useful Things, I am also sitting here like a fungus and conviviating with my fellow morons. 

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 12:30 PM (8lmkt)

148 The single best way to fight poverty is to *let* society get rich, to minimize interference beyond basic enforcement of contract and genuine civil rights laws (as opposed to the "civil right" of having SEIU tell you to stop working for a month so they can get more dough). Or, to clarify it for our political classes, in the immortal words of the slightly-better-than-Maya Angelou modern poet, Ludacris: "Move, bitch, get out da way, get out da way, bitch, get out da way!"

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:30 PM (qyfb5)

149 I think infovore needs to go watch the famous gold doubling episode of DuckTales.

Posted by: Dems at May 11, 2013 12:30 PM (wsGWu)

150 It's basically abolishing the government except for the redistributional aspect. BWAHHHAHHHHHHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:30 PM (7vimm)

151 Go away sock!

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (wsGWu)

152 It's breezy and windy here and about to rain near Boston, otherwise I would be outside tending to my rose garden.

Posted by: CarolT at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (z4WKX)

153 from the WaPo article

"The fact that it is universal is crucial. This eliminates income traps that can cause severe work disincentives. A UBI answers the Foucauldian critique about the welfare state being a way for the state to stigmatize and control marginalized populations. There are no state officials determining whether or not a single mom “deserves” help or drug tests and other invasive, humiliating requirements. Others see UBI as a way of recognizing the value of decommodified caregiving and other cooperative, non-labor activities, by making sure there is space in the economy to both reward and carry them out."

This is gibberish. Does anyone with more than half a brain (that excludes you, Dr Lefty Liberal, PhD) think that such a program would let the ogvernment end Medicare, food stamps, etc. At best, we go back to the USSR, where everyone has a constitutional right to a bed in a corner, enough food to be able to function, a visit to the doctor who will use the same catheter and hypodermic needle he used on the previous 20 or 30 patients, and the right to be a "productive citizen" (or get put in a labor camp for being a parasite.)

off topic -- thunder..!



Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (bJm7W)

154 141 Hmmm. Give everyone their money at the first of the year. Everything is pay as you go including medical services. If you spend your money on dope or other crap then tough shit. Hope you like eating air. Real shovel ready jobs created. Utopia, personal responsibility, and population control. A win-win for everyone. Posted by: Hanoverfist at May 11, 2013 04:26 PM (F6NgH) ---- Windfall 4th qtr profits for lenders. We'll have to regulate and tax that.

Posted by: Dave S. at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (UvR6d)

155 Nothing more than a rehash of 30's-era Social Credit theories.

Posted by: Captain Ned at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (i+Fm3)

156 For some reason not entirely clear to me, the linked post had me ruminating about marsupial ballsacks.  Supple and plush.

Posted by: Fritz at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (G9Mmf)

157 As others have pointed out, the negative income tax idea has been floated before. Milton Friedman (hint: not a Communist) was a fan. An advantage is that work is ALWAYS incentivized. Yeah, there'll be total slackers who exist on the dole (which differs from the present situation how, exactly?), but you're always going to be better off working. The same basic idea is used in the Fair Tax. Figure out what a standard deduction would be, cut everyone a check for that amount, and then tax everything. Another big advantage of both systems is that you don't need the hordes of welfare workers, tax accountants, and IRS agents. This, of course, is why neither will ever be adopted.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (m9EP3)

158 >>>It's basically abolishing the government except for the redistributional aspect.

I'm pretty sure the government would get abolished before we got to a full-retard "redistributional aspect."

IYKWIMAITYD

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:31 PM (4Mv1T)

159 Even I know that infovore is not that smart

Posted by: Corky Thatcher at May 11, 2013 12:32 PM (jucos)

160 "The income tax will never be levied against the majority of Americans--just the very rich!"

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:32 PM (7vimm)

161

Come on people, this is only going to cost 3,000,000,000,000 per year.

 

And then  people will like it so much they'll start voting for anyone who will give them free raises. It'll be 40K/person in no time.

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at May 11, 2013 12:32 PM (sYTYw)

162

123 I'm sorry, I did not mean to kill the thread with my joie de vivre. It probably won't happen again anytime soon.

 

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 04:20 PM (8lmkt) 

 

--------

 

Oh, I hope not, Peaches. I love your joie de vivre.

We would be fortunate to experience regular outbreaks of it!

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 12:32 PM (LxEHG)

163 Is this like giving everyone a sustenance level food level in the re-education camps? And remember I get a top bunk

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 11, 2013 12:33 PM (jE38p)

164 The answer to the "inflation argument" is that it won't cause inflation because it doesn't change the level of government spending. That's what people don't seem to understand. The federal government is already spending over $10,000 per year per person. This just takes that $10,000 and gives it to people to choose what to spend it on rather than having the government decide what goods and services to provide. It's basically abolishing the government except for the redistributional aspect. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:29 PM (0llFJ) Buahahahahahhahahahaha..... pause for breath...... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:33 PM (GEICT)

165 "It's basically abolishing the government except for the redistributional aspect."

It virtually bastes itself!

No Muss.  No Fuss. 

(How do we keep White, hetero-males from pilfering it?  They are ALWAYS pilfer-y.)

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 11, 2013 12:33 PM (7gwGw)

166 92 If you're in favor of vouchers rather than a government-run school system, you should be in favor of this. It's the exact same thing, except rather than just replacing government run schools, it replaces government everything with a voucher you can use to buy goods and services from private parties. The illogic in that post is so profound I don't know where to begin to unpack it. I'll start with the fact that there is no danger of moral hazard when it comes to public school funding. Now, on to the other 10 logical fallacies in the post ....

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:34 PM (WAgIq)

167 Senior Officials In IRS Knew About Targeting Of Conservative Groups Back In 2011 What a shocker, they weren’t being forthcoming yesterday. Via Politico: WASHINGTON — A federal watchdog’s upcoming report says senior Internal Revenue Service officials knew agents were targeting tea party groups in 2011. The disclosure contradicts public statements by former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman, who repeatedly assured Congress that conservative groups were not targeted. On Friday, the IRS apologized for what it acknowledged was “inappropriate” targeting of conservative political groups during the 2012 election to see if those groups were violating their tax-exempt status. The Treasury’s inspector general for tax administration is expected to release the results of a nearly yearlong investigation in the coming week. The Associated Press obtained part of the draft report. That report says the head of the IRS division that oversees tax-exempt groups learned that groups were being targeted in June 2011. It does not say whether Shulman was notified.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 11, 2013 12:34 PM (jE38p)

168 RELAX..... You're soaking in it....

Posted by: Madge at May 11, 2013 12:35 PM (jucos)

169 Buahahahahahhahahahaha..... pause for breath...... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha He's really a tool, isn't he?

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:35 PM (WAgIq)

170 Star Trek, especially by the TNG era and everything that followed, is not a good point of reference for anything like a possible future. Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 04:28 PM (kcfmt) Some of the stories, settings, and moments were cool, but as a fictional universe, in a lot of ways it was actually *grotesque* in its ignorance of reality. There's science fiction, there's science fantasy, and then there's fantasy fantasy with sciencey jargon thrown in.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:35 PM (qyfb5)

171 For some reason not entirely clear to me, the linked post had me ruminating about marsupial ballsacks. Supple and plush. Posted by: Fritz at May 11, 2013 04:31 PM (G9Mmf) Hey, we were discussing Roo sacks just this morning,

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 12:36 PM (XIxXP)

172 Also, if the "rich" guy pays 30K in taxes and is then "given" 10K, he isn't really getting 10k...and he knows it.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:36 PM (wsGWu)

173 It's like an Onion article. Back when they were actually funny.

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at May 11, 2013 12:36 PM (+UrNT)

174 Utopianism is always convinced that Man and his Society can be perfected. It can't, but it exists in denial of this fact, and will always continue with each successive scheme to perfect it. Then, following each failure of each new plan, it has to grab more and more power, resources, and control for each new tilt at the windmill. Along the way, it targets whatever it sees as the enemy-- Jews, bankers, capitalists, kulaks, intellectuals, etc. etc. etc. Killing Fields, Ministries of Truth, secret police and gulags inevitably result, because those Utopian Dreams just need to crack the whip a little harder, see? Step One: Acknowledge that Utopianism is impossible. You'll never collectivize people into perfection, because Man is simply not perfectible. T

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:36 PM (MMC8r)

175 "the IRS apologized" The sentencing phase is the appropriate venue for these apologies.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:36 PM (m9EP3)

176 He's really a tool, isn't he? Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 04:35 PM (WAgIq) I defer to Reagan... "Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isnÂ’t so."

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:36 PM (GEICT)

177 Anyone else think it a bit odd that the IRS story is the one they floated to DIVERT us from Benghazi? This just tells me that Benghazi is hella bad because the IRS story is has felonies written all over it.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 12:37 PM (jucos)

178 "Also, if the "rich" guy pays 30K in taxes and is then "given" 10K, he isn't really getting 10k...and he knows it." And?

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:37 PM (m9EP3)

179 Funny how Harry Reid made all kinds of statements about Romney's tax returns before the election, and now we find out that the Obama IRS was targeting conservative groups as early as 2011, and that contrary to what was said in the last day or so, higher-ups knew about the targeting. Wash Post even did an editorial on the IRS corruption. Between this and Benghazi, things are happening fast.

Posted by: Baldy at May 11, 2013 12:37 PM (tyDFN)

180 I'm pretty much to the "Point And Laugh" phase of dealing with this kind of profound stupid ignorance of basic human behavior. I can't even get up a good mock any more. I just have to point and laugh at the idiots. Especially the ones who try so very, very, VERY hard to sound like they know something (implying, of course, that They Know Something You Don't).

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:37 PM (7vimm)

181 ruminating about marsupial ballsacks. ***** I was not aware that marsupials were ruminants. Learn something new every day.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 12:38 PM (pxDth)

182 182 Anyone else think it a bit odd that the IRS story is the one they floated to DIVERT us from Benghazi? This just tells me that Benghazi is hella bad because the IRS story is has felonies written all over it. Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 04:37 PM (jucos) I made that exact point, almost word for word, on twitter yesterday. How scary is it that the IRS targeting political orgs IS the distraction?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:38 PM (GEICT)

183 "Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isnÂ’t so." Every time we ignore human nature, we pay for it. He shows no sign of even knowing such a thing as human nature exists. I don't have time to teach freshman political economy. You're up.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:38 PM (WAgIq)

184 This just tells me that Benghazi is hella bad because the IRS story is has felonies written all over it. Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 04:37 PM (jucos) -------------------------------------------------------- English Motherfucker.... Do you speak it?

Posted by: Truck Monkey is Sorry at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (jucos)

185 Well-known Communist Milton Friedman discusses the idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (m9EP3)

186 And...that underminds their argument that this isn't welfare, swearsies, we all get it!

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (wsGWu)

187 Taking a sack full of money and giving it to the entire population will not cause inflation.

Because there will be no concentrated areas of spending that will differ significantly from what the government spends money on so supply and demand will not be affected.

Does everyone have that?

Good.

Let's move on to physics...who needs it?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (LYIrp)

188 I think we are suitably spaced out now from our leftist math instruction.

Ready for CACs offering waiting in the bullpen.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (4Mv1T)

189 (Whoops-- to continue) Once you realize Man is not perfectible, the process is to insulate the individual from the failings of others--not to share pain, not to force sharing obligation, but to allow the individual's choices to affect them, and only them, as much as possible. Their mistakes cause them harm, their good choices bring them benefits. It incentivizes decision-making and self-interest and prevents bad choices from harming others.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (MMC8r)

190 You guys are way overthinking ST.  But there was some really annoying Utopianist fantasizing in there. Struth.

Posted by: eleven at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (fsLdt)

191 I don't have time to teach freshman political economy. You're up. Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 04:38 PM (WAgIq) You can't fix stupid. You can only kick it until it learns to shut up and sit down.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (GEICT)

192 Anybody who has read the David Weber Honor Harrington novels should recognize this as the Basic Living Stipend (BLS) of the authoritarian/socialist Republic of Haven empire. Expect the same ending here.

Posted by: SamIam at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (S09w5)

193 The answer to the "inflation argument" is that it won't cause inflation because it doesn't change the level of government spending. That's what people don't seem to understand. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:29 PM (0llFJ) Let's say inflation is caused by something else. That $10,000 doesn't buy as much as it used to. Next: Demands for an automatic COLA based on the inflation rate.

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I am at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (QR2k5)

194
Of course it changes the level of govt spending, it says it right there, everybody gets it.  Are you really that stupid or just play one on TV?

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 11, 2013 12:39 PM (jKWYf)

195

As I've always said, if you like your money,  I'll keep your money.

 

For you.

 

Here's a voucher and a bag of Fritos.

Posted by: Bart Hussein Obama at May 11, 2013 12:40 PM (I2uSp)

196 I was unaware that Milton Friedman had some sort of infallibility clause.


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:41 PM (LYIrp)

197 "that underminds their argument that this isn't welfare" What? Who is "they"? I don't see anyone arguing that it isn't welfare. Clearly it is. The question is whether it would be a better system than the one we have. Hint: read first, rant later.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:41 PM (m9EP3)

198 Everyone will just agree that 10,000 is enough. The government will just step back and ride into the sunset, everything else we've guaranteed will expire with the signing of a pen, and there will never be any pressure put on from the people for MORE, MORE, MORE. The author totally nailed this one. Utopia! Well free booze should still be on the table. Circa (Insert Year Here) has some very interesting ideas also. But that's it! The basic needs. I'm sure I'm leaving a few things out, but we'll sort it out.

Posted by: Dave S. at May 11, 2013 12:42 PM (UvR6d)

199 Anybody who has read the David Weber Honor Harrington novels should recognize this as the Basic Living Stipend (BLS) of the authoritarian/socialist Republic of Haven empire. Expect the same ending here. EXACTLY my first thought when I read it . . .

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 12:42 PM (7vimm)

200

187...How scary is it that the IRS targeting political orgs IS the distraction?

 

Yeah, BC...they're admitting to Political Persecution and Abuse of Power.

And doing it, to distract from their willing sacrifice of American lives to win an election.

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 12:42 PM (LxEHG)

201 But if you'd rather ignorantly hoot and holler, hey, whatever floats your boat. Again with the projection.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:42 PM (WAgIq)

202 Just a quick reality check - people are arguing, basically, something that isn't being advocated. First of all, the author isn't advocating a $10k figure, someone else is. The author isn't specific but strongly implies it would be larger. But that's just part of their program, which they view as integral, which includes "removing from the market" things like food, housing, and healthcare, universal unionization, and establishing at least some of this as transfer payments from producers who use "common resources," aka Shit They Already Pay Taxes For. Picking out some small portion of an argument and mis-assigning numbers to it and then arguing it separately is no way to go through life, son.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:42 PM (qyfb5)

203 Hint, the article itself argued that this wouldn't be welfare because we'd all get it. So, you know, maybe read first, rant later. Jeesh.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:42 PM (wsGWu)

204 >>>But if you'd rather ignorantly brilliantly hoot and holler, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Fixed it. It's what we do best.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:43 PM (4Mv1T)

205 Truck Monkey, I agree that they let out IRS story as a diversion from Benghazi. They want to silent future whistleblowers. I read yesterday, on my iPhone, that more were coming forward. I hope Hillary wears this around her neck for the rest of her life! SCOAMF should too but the media will let him go. Carney already steered the bus towards Hillary yesterday.

Posted by: CarolT at May 11, 2013 12:43 PM (z4WKX)

206 Shabazz, who led a troubled life, was visiting his friend, recently deported activist Miguel Suarez, when "they and several other people had gone to a bar near the downtown plaza that is home to Mexico City's mariachis." After being confronted with a $1,200 bar bill by the owner of the establishment, a fight ensued and Shabazz was taken behind the building and beaten. Suarez told the AP that he "found Shabazz injured outside the bar and took him to a hospital where he died on Thursday." So, he tried to stiff the bar owner??

Posted by: waldo at May 11, 2013 12:43 PM (sXWmd)

207 "I was unaware that Milton Friedman had some sort of infallibility clause." But you do? If you can refute Friedman's arguments, do so, but, you know, he was a pretty smart guy who actually knew a thing or two about economics, and spent quite a bit of time thinking about this.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:43 PM (m9EP3)

208

I'm not even in favor of this proposal, as I said in my first post. I just thought it was embarrassing to see such stupid objections, as if this was some new insane communist idea rather than something that has been floating around for a long time and debated by serious thinkers such as Charles Murray and Milton Friedman. But if you'd rather ignorantly hoot and holler, hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

Your opposition was pretty tepid, on the order of "One could make an argument against it, and you are a new poster calling everyone stupid. That makes you look an awful lot like a troll, you understand.

Posted by: Grey Fox at May 11, 2013 12:43 PM (XQsSC)

209 "Hint, the article itself argued that this wouldn't be welfare because we'd all get it." Hint: the article says nothing of the sort. Direct quote that this "isn't welfare" or STFU.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:44 PM (m9EP3)

210 Yeah, BC...they're admitting to Political Persecution and Abuse of Power. And doing it, to distract from their willing sacrifice of American lives to win an election. Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 04:42 PM (LxEHG) ------------------------------------------------------- Just wait and see what I have in store for the next 3 1/2 years. Hahahahahaha

Posted by: Preznit Urkel X at May 11, 2013 12:44 PM (jucos)

211 The citizen's dividend doesn't work like welfare - everyone gets it. It also doesn't supplement current welfare programs, it replaces them. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 03:50 PM (0llFJ) ---------- What? Who is "they"? I don't see anyone arguing that it isn't welfare. Clearly it is. The question is whether it would be a better system than the one we have. Hint: read first, rant later. Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 04:41 PM (m9EP3) You were saying?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:45 PM (GEICT)

212 Note to leftards and our apparent betters:

The best way to combat poverty is via a thriving private economy with minimal taxes and regulation.  Yes, a minimum social safety net is fine...that is not what this is and I do not equate this with a negative income tax (note use of the word "universal").


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:45 PM (LYIrp)

213 Did anyone really read that?  It's longer than an Ace movie review. 

I'll take  your word for it.  Liberals are teh stoopid when it comes to economics. 

Film at 11, as they say. 

Posted by: BurtTC at May 11, 2013 12:45 PM (BeSEI)

214 Lessee- The root of Infovore would be- Info - information vore - eater So, Infovore is a person that "eats information" and craps out stupid. Well, okay then...carry on.

Posted by: Staff at May 11, 2013 12:46 PM (G9qZk)

215 HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTT HOLLARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 12:46 PM (jucos)

216 Oh go fuck yourself. " The fact that it is universal is crucial. This eliminates income traps that can cause severe work disincentives. A UBI answers the Foucauldian critique about the welfare state being a way for the state to stigmatize and control marginalized populations. There are no state officials determining whether or not a single mom "deserves" help or drug tests and other invasive, humiliating requirements." The point is that it's a universal system that we're all getting, except "we" all aren't.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:47 PM (wsGWu)

217 Did anyone really read that?

I read until I started getting all barfy feeling.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:47 PM (4Mv1T)

218 "the citizen's dividend doesn't work like welfare" That quote isn't anywhere in the article. Other than that, great point.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:47 PM (m9EP3)

219
If someone wants to go all utopian, how about just no taxes at all.  All debt, just print.  That way no need to cut checks at all.  No entitlements, eat what you kill.

I vote that utopia.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 11, 2013 12:47 PM (jKWYf)

220 "that underminds their argument that this isn't welfare" If you didn't create a product or provide a service to recieve compensation at a level greater than or equal to your compensation, you are getting a form of welfare.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 12:48 PM (XIxXP)

221 I read until I started getting all barfy feeling. Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 04:47 PM (4Mv1T) So, just the title?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:48 PM (GEICT)

222 "Oh go fuck yourself. " Translation: you ranted before reading. The rest of your comment is just a half-assed attempt at spin control.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:48 PM (m9EP3)

223 lol, Cochran!!!

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 12:48 PM (8lmkt)

224 I'm going to use my $10,000 to buy a boat. Only time will tell if it floats or not.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 12:48 PM (pxDth)

225 I now see that today was a bad day to make an exception. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:47 PM (0llFJ) Actually every day is a bad day to open a discussion with insults. You get what you give.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:49 PM (qyfb5)

226 You get what you give. Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at May 11, 2013 04:49 PM (qyfb5) Preach it.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 12:49 PM (XIxXP)

227 That quote isn't anywhere in the article. Other than that, great point. Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 04:47 PM (m9EP3) No. Fucking. Shit. You said "no one was claiming it isn't welfare". Clearly someone is. Now go get your fucking shine box, boy, and get back under the stairs.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:49 PM (GEICT)

228 >>>So, just the title?

Pretty much, Yea.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at May 11, 2013 12:50 PM (4Mv1T)

229 as if this was some new insane communist idea rather than something that has been floating around for a long time and debated by serious thinkers such as Charles Murray and Milton Friedman. But if you'd rather ignorantly hoot and holler, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Posted by: infovore

There are no new communist ideas. They've existed for a long time and they always fail. The writers even admit this is straight out of the fantasy playbook - "Utopian"

Anyone seeking to institute a utopia is an enemy of mankind.

It is inflationary because there is not a chance in hell it would replace any entitlement currently in place. Insisting that it would is sheer, unmitigated bullshit and you know it.

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at May 11, 2013 12:50 PM (YTstp)

230 Olaf,

Friedman was a smart guy.  That does not mean that "wouldn't it be nice" ideas should be characterized as workable or reasonable.  Hell, I'd like to not experience pain when I stub my toe--but that is not how the world works.

This proposal removes the incentive to work, is inflationary, and because of the hard lessons of history is as slippery a slope as I can imagine.

And next time you get personal with me, go shit in your hat.


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:51 PM (LYIrp)

231 You get what you give. That was also part and parcel of it not understanding human nature.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:51 PM (WAgIq)

232 Oh, and Shabazz being dead and in a foreign country, I don't see people demanding the Mexicans bury him. So, Shabazz was killed in a robbery alright but he was the one doing the theft.

Posted by: waldo at May 11, 2013 12:51 PM (sXWmd)

233 Pretty much the entire argument for a "universal income" is based on a series of events that have never happened - it being smaller than needed to live but pressure not being applied to increase it, the left finding another hobby, it *replacing* other payments instead of adding to them, etc. It's one of those dream hypotheticals. BTW the "Utopian movements" of the 1800s have one thing in common - they were all miserable failures.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:52 PM (qyfb5)

234 Oh, and Shabazz being dead and in a foreign country, I don't see people demanding the Mexicans bury him. So, Shabazz was killed in a robbery alright but he was the one doing the theft. Posted by: waldo at May 11, 2013 04:51 PM (sXWmd) Karma, how do it work.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 12:52 PM (XIxXP)

235 @Infovore.... Can you say Welfare Cadillac?

Posted by: olddog in mo at May 11, 2013 12:52 PM (A9na/)

236 Seriously, what the fuck is your problem? My very non controversial point, was that their claim of this being a universal payment is false. I don't even know why the hell you're arguing it except to prove yourself a complete jackass. So again, go fuck yourself.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 12:52 PM (wsGWu)

237 "I am not a new commenter. I have been reading and commenting here for at least 5 years."

Translation:  "This enormous anthill has been outside my door for years.  Just because I poured honey on myself and rolled in it? 

-I most certainly did not expect this."

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 11, 2013 12:52 PM (7gwGw)

238
Another big advantage of both systems is that you don't need the hordes of welfare workers, tax accountants, and IRS agents.
Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker




Which is one of those technocratic "efficiency" solutions that tend to be infinitively more complex and expensive in practice. TFX much?

More importantly, much of the impetus for a GBI in the US occurred during the postwar years when The Big Problem to solve was how to absorb the vast amount of wealth the US was creating and importing thru it's economic dominance.  Hence a consumption driven approach.

Lost its appeal after the economy went tits up with Vietnam and the '73 Oil Embargo. And makes no sense in the current Flat Busted Era.


Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 12:53 PM (kdS6q)

239 You said "no one was claiming it isn't welfare". In the article, dipshit. Read first, then rant. "Clearly someone is." No, he's claiming that it doesn't WORK LIKE welfare (current system thereof implied) which it doesn't.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:53 PM (m9EP3)

240 I say all goods and service cost a minimum of $10,000.  No exceptions, - until we screw at least 53% of the population.

Who's with me?

Posted by: Fritz, hootin' and hollerin' at May 11, 2013 12:53 PM (G9Mmf)

241 "Which is one of those technocratic "efficiency" solutions that tend to be infinitively more complex and expensive in practice. " Really? Cutting everyone an automatic check is "infinitely more expensive" than paying a horde of welfare caseworkers? Do tell us how that could be.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:54 PM (m9EP3)

242
Solve this economic theorem:  If everyone gets $20,000, nobody gets $20,000.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 11, 2013 12:54 PM (jKWYf)

243 I am not a new commenter. I have been reading and commenting here for at least 5 years. I just don't usually comment a thousand times a day. I now see that today was a bad day to make an exception. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:47 PM (0llFJ) ------------------------------------------------- You aren't taking your ball and going home are you?

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 12:54 PM (jucos)

244

224 I am not a new commenter. I have been reading and commenting here for at least 5 years. I just don't usually comment a thousand times a day. I now see that today was a bad day to make an exception.

 

Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 04:47 PM (0llFJ) 

 

---------

 

So now, you're making a whine that you are learning impaired.

 

Because...if you've been reading here for 5 years, and haven't picked up on the fact that Government Redistribution of Wealth leads to nothing but decay and despair...then your reading comprehension is at an extremely low level.

 

Next, you're going to declare that we are meanies for challenging your assertion that we are stupid.

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 12:54 PM (LxEHG)

245 How about cutting off all the free shit and watch people become productive members of society.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 12:55 PM (XIxXP)

246 What is this? Stupid's day out? Fuckin hell people. No, he's claiming that it doesn't WORK LIKE welfare (current system thereof implied) which it doesn't. Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 04:53 PM (m9EP3) ------------------ It also doesn't supplement current welfare programs, it replaces them. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 03:50 PM (0llFJ) See? This is why the argument that people should have to be licensed before having children isn't dismissed outright. At a minimum, an IQ test would be helpful.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (GEICT)

247 235 -

I actually read a whole paragraph, realized the knucklehead was just getting warmed up, as they say, scrolled down to see how long, and said 'no thanks.'

I can honestly say I've never yet regretted deciding not to waste my time reading something.  As much as I HAVE read so far in this lifetime, I've learned to trust my own instincts on this. 

Posted by: BurtTC at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (BeSEI)

248 244 "I am not a new commenter. I have been reading and commenting here for at least 5 years And yet, and yet...you're surprised by the reaction. So you're either not a new commenter, because you were surprised, or you don't pay attention to anything here which would make you profoundly ignorant and therefore worthy of mockery and derision.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (WAgIq)

249 How about cutting off all the free shit and watch people become productive members of society. Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 04:55 PM (XIxXP) Isn't that what parents do with kids?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (jE38p)

250 A minimum welfare state used to be called private charity. I still prefer that to some arbitrary redistributionist scheme run by people who benefit from their "compassion".

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (JRU+g)

251 "My very non controversial point, was that their claim of this being a universal payment is false." So now you're going to claim something completely different, and equally false? It's clearly a universal payment. Whether it works out to be a NET payment is different issue.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (m9EP3)

252 No exceptions, - until we screw at least 53% of the population. Who's with me? Posted by: Fritz, hootin' and hollerin' at May 11, 2013 04:53 PM (G9Mmf) Only 51% of the population is female, so not me, bub. I don't swing that way.

Posted by: waldo at May 11, 2013 12:56 PM (sXWmd)

253 #240 Well, a universal income might be what happens when the people of the polity own the natural resources, and if those resources are husbanded effectively on their behalf, there might be a case of people being paid, or taxed less, by the government. Like in Alaska, where residents do get a check from oil revenue.

Posted by: Red China at May 11, 2013 12:57 PM (Zv1QB)

254 See? This is why the argument that people should have to be licensed before having children isn't dismissed outright. At a minimum, an IQ test would be helpful. I'm OK with the death penalty for willful ignorance.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:57 PM (WAgIq)

255 Just one more point:  It would take exactly one nanosecond in the United States for the usual suspects to point out that New Yorkers or Californians could not possibly be expected to live on the same money as all those people in flyover country.

I'm done with this because it is one of those issues, like the Paulbots on gold, that is so much navel gazing.

Get the economy moving.  Magically, poverty will decline.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 12:57 PM (LYIrp)

256

Isn't there some distinct difference between being given something versus earning it ?

 

Don't you tend to value the earned over the given , or is that quaint old notion not part of the nu-amerika ?

Posted by: seamrog at May 11, 2013 12:58 PM (a8hHx)

257 "At a minimum, an IQ test would be helpful." I'm pretty sure you'd be failing that test, hoss, assuming there was a reading comprehension component.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 12:58 PM (m9EP3)

258 wheatie :::: swoon ::::

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 12:58 PM (WAgIq)

259 Of course, in the Obama administration, all government lands are off limits to resource exploitation.

Posted by: Red China at May 11, 2013 12:58 PM (Zv1QB)

260 Isn't that what parents do with kids? Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 11, 2013 04:56 PM (jE38p) Once upon a time maybe, no. you can stay on your parents insurance till your 26. Not my Idea of a productive member of society. They want welfare to begin at home so when you hit te street the transition is seemless.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 12:58 PM (XIxXP)

261 Remember when drunken asshole threads were Saturday *night*?

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 12:59 PM (qyfb5)

262 Well that was fun, Did you see that RGIII is getting married? Apparently there are some sisters that are pissed that he chose a Caucasian.

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 11, 2013 12:59 PM (R8hU8)

263 I'm OK with the death penalty for willful ignorance. Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 04:57 PM (WAgIq) My wife once made the very astute observation that IQ seemed to be inversely proportional to the amount of children someone has. Which explains our current political climate.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 12:59 PM (GEICT)

264 A quote from the article I didn't read: "the goal isnÂ’t to ensure a sufficient amount of market access and purchasing power, but instead to remove markets from the way people interface with certain goods, such as education or health care." Oh, yes. That would be good, wouldn't it?

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 12:59 PM (MMC8r)

265 I'm sitting on my desk watching clouds roll by. At the moment there is one that looks like an alligator biting a lefty "economist" on the butt.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at May 11, 2013 01:00 PM (pxDth)

266

Someone from the NRSC called me to ask for $100 donation because Harry Reid is stalling everything in the senate.  I said no. The man wouldn't stop and told me that we have to get republicans in and hope that they are conservatives!  I had already said no and I wanted only true conservatives not RINO's elected.

 

I would love for another man like Ted Cruz to come out of nowhere and be as honest and truthful as he was during his campaign.   He's one of the few that have stayed true to their campaign promises.

 

Rubio had such promise but then he got himself involved in Gang of Eight. Mark Levin said that McConnell pushed Rubio to get involved in that bill.

 

I'll go to Levin's new website and try to remember when he said that. 

 

Posted by: CarolT at May 11, 2013 01:00 PM (z4WKX)

267 If this country would appoint me as dictator for 4 years I would eliminate welfare, section 8,  foodstamps .....    You can't afford to feed yourself or family or put a roof over your head we will erect as many army barracks as it takes for everyone to have a cot and you get to eat in the cafeteria.    Oh you want privacy,  menu choice,  your own TV .... -- OK get a job and save up for them but we have the safety net if you stumble.    

Posted by: PaleRider at May 11, 2013 01:00 PM (5CusZ)

268 I've always thought that everyone should get a monthly cash deposit from Uncle Sam in a large enough amount to make them rich, say $21,666.67.  This would eliminate the stigma of being poor and make everyone subject to all the new Obama taxes.  Surely, with all that constantly renewed money floating around, the economy would get a tremendous boost!  It would also be possible to cancel all welfare and assistance programs saving a huge amount in government salaries, red tape, translators, and removing any need to register or file paperwork.




Just in case /s!

Posted by: Hrothgar at May 11, 2013 01:00 PM (Cnqmv)

269 Don't worry, infovore.  I get money just to stay away from my neighbor's tomato plants.  They call it "insurance."  I call it "Wednesday."

Posted by: Slapweasel at May 11, 2013 01:00 PM (7gwGw)

270 Well that was fun, Did you see that RGIII is getting married? Apparently there are some sisters that are pissed that he chose a Caucasian. Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 11, 2013 04:59 PM (R8hU Many successful black men do. It's a status symbol, like a ferrari with big tits.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 01:00 PM (XIxXP)

271 I'm pretty sure you'd be failing that test, hoss, assuming there was a reading comprehension component. Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 04:58 PM (m9EP3) Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I have a MENSA level IQ and I scored a perfect 36 out of 36 on the ACT. But other than that you're spot on chief.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:01 PM (GEICT)

272 But it's not nearly as exciting as a master plan to alliviate human suffering once and for all. You don't get oodles and oodles of praise from the NYTs editorial page and invites to Georgetown cocktail parties when you donate $500 a year to a private charity. So boring and conventional.

Posted by: Wonkish Rogue at May 11, 2013 01:01 PM (JRU+g)

273 Really? Cutting everyone an automatic check is "infinitely more expensive" than paying a horde of welfare caseworkers? Do tell us how that could be. Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 04:54 PM (m9EP3) What happens when they blow through that automatic check?

Posted by: RWC at May 11, 2013 01:01 PM (Wl/Ht)

274
Stop it, you are all embarrassing that guy. 

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 11, 2013 01:02 PM (jKWYf)

275 Note to Olaf:

This is not a good place to play the "you're stupid" card.


Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 01:02 PM (LYIrp)

276 Well, taken the white girl out for mothers day, later rons.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 01:02 PM (XIxXP)

277 " It's clearly a universal payment. Whether it works out to be a NET payment is different issue. " Are you a complete imbecile? Of course I don't mean that they are only writing checks to some people, and not others. You really shouldn't be lecturing anyone on reading comprehension.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 01:03 PM (wsGWu)

278 In the world where real people really live, here's what would happen if every person in the USA were handed $10,000 tomorrow: A bunch of people would go out and buy cigarettes, liquor, hookers, gamble it away, or otherwise blow the entire wad, and a week later would be sleeping on the street again, no better (and probably quite a bit worse--like dead--than they were before). On top of the human carnage this would cause, the spending done by these people would increase demand for those items, which would cause inflation, raising the price of those items, causing the $10k to buy less of those items, causing pressure to have the government raise that BLS level. A bunch of people would use the money to buy essentials--food, shelter, clothing. These people would be the ones who you could most easily say would benefit from this plan. But their spending also would increase demand for those items, which would cause inflation, raising the price of those items, causing the $10k to buy less of those items, causing pressure to have the government raise that BLS level. A bunch of people would use the money to buy non-essentials to make their lives better in whatever manner they thought appropriate, giving them perhaps some marginal improvement in their lives. This would increase demand for those items, which would cause inflation, raising the price of those items, causing the $10k to buy less of those items, causing pressure to have the government raise that BLS level. Some people who already earn enough to take care of both essential needs and non-essential wants would probably invest the money--in their own businesses, in stocks, bonds, or other investments. The impact of this policy on the lives of these people (leaving aside the not at all insignificant fact that these are the people who would be paying for the policy in the first place) is minimal. Depending on the investment, this could be inflationary, deflationary, some of each, or relatively neutral. So, basically, we've caused inflation, and killed off a bunch of hoboes. Hmm. Second look at this idea by the Moron Horde?

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 01:03 PM (7vimm)

279 What happens when they blow through that automatic check? Posted by: RWC at May 11, 2013 05:01 PM (Wl/Ht) -------------------------------------------------------- It depends. Who is president?

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 11, 2013 01:03 PM (jucos)

280 What happens when they blow through that automatic check? Stop making him think past the end of his nose. It hurts him.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 01:03 PM (WAgIq)

281 MENSA's for fags.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 01:04 PM (MMC8r)

282

262...Get the economy moving. Magically, poverty will decline.

 

Well yeah, Circa, I agree.

But our government is paying people to be poor.

So until we stop that shit, poverty will continue to proliferate.

 

Speaking of New York...

Has anyone else noticed New York's new ad campaign?

They're saying that they are now a Haven of Low Taxes for Businesses...and "Ya'll Come!"

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 01:04 PM (LxEHG)

283 Don't be too hard on Olaf.  Remember, you can always tell a Norwegian, you just can't tell him much.

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 01:04 PM (8lmkt)

284 What happens when they blow through that automatic check? About 5% become wealthy after fucking the other 95% out of their cash with trinkets and promises.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at May 11, 2013 01:04 PM (XIxXP)

285 Stoner thread is up.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:05 PM (GEICT)

286
Really? Cutting everyone an automatic check is "infinitely more expensive" than paying a horde of welfare caseworkers?
Do tell us how that could be.
Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker



Look at any Government guaranteed outcome solution: farm supports, guarnteed heathcare, social security and so on.

You end up with a larger bureaucracy to administer the program and even more expense than you started with.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 01:05 PM (kdS6q)

287 280 -

We're gonna need a bigger welfare office. 

Posted by: BurtTC at May 11, 2013 01:05 PM (BeSEI)

288 "I have a MENSA level IQ" Yes, and you also date supermodels and live in a 400 room mansion in Aruba, no doubt. Maybe try wiping the spittle off your screen first, hoss.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 01:06 PM (m9EP3)

289 288 MENSA's for fags. But it does give you a discount on your car insurance!

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 01:06 PM (wsGWu)

290 They're saying that they are now a Haven of Low Taxes for Businesses...and "Ya'll Come!"

Yes, and I will be the next Pope even though married and Protestant.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 01:06 PM (kNqmp)

291 277 Well that was fun, Did you see that RGIII is getting married? Apparently there are some sisters that are pissed that he chose a Caucasian. Posted by: Velvet Ambition at May 11, 2013 04:59 PM (R8hU Many successful black men do. It's a status symbol, like a ferrari with big tits. Cornball bruthas.

Posted by: Rob Parker at May 11, 2013 01:06 PM (JRU+g)

292 Worst snappy hero line from a movie that is still appropriate to the thread: "Some motherfuckers' always tryin' ta ice skate uphill." Man, dude had screen presence, but so much stupid...

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 01:06 PM (qyfb5)

293

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 04:58 PM (WAgIq)

 

*blows a smooch at Sean B*

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 01:06 PM (LxEHG)

294 My gummint check came! Check out all my new gold toofs!

Posted by: Proud Welfare Millionaire at May 11, 2013 01:07 PM (MMC8r)

295 Opening with an insult here is like chumming the water while swimming in it.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 01:07 PM (qyfb5)

296 Yes, and you also date supermodels....... Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 05:06 PM (m9EP3) Hahahahahahaha....Bannion, somebody, explain to this dumbass why that's incredibly amusing.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:07 PM (GEICT)

297 Yes, and you also date supermodels and live in a 400 room mansion in Aruba, no doubt. Close. Florida, and his wife is a former NFL Cheerleader. Keep bring da Stooopid. It makes you look good.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 01:08 PM (WAgIq)

298
I have a MENSA level IQ and I scored a perfect 36 out of 36 on the ACT.
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk



Sure sure, but how did you do on the all important Nitrogen Test?

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 01:08 PM (kdS6q)

299 Sure sure, but how did you do on the all important Nitrogen Test? Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 05:08 PM (kdS6q) The Science Quiz from the other night? Lol. 13.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:08 PM (GEICT)

300 As to whether or not you should get another Guinness-- I took a vote and the answer is yes. My gutters need cleaning but since I played golf this morning
my hands are sore and I need to hold a cold, nearly frozen metal can for a few hours. As a dentist ( Hi Nevergiveup!) I need to recover for Monday and I have to play golf again tomorrow :-(

Posted by: free tibet at May 11, 2013 01:09 PM (quLHy)

301 People usually overlook my high IQ when they find out about my 15" penis.

Posted by: zsasz at May 11, 2013 01:10 PM (MMC8r)

302 "Are you a complete imbecile? Of course I don't mean that they are only writing checks to some people, and not others. " No, but you apparently are. Hint: lying about what you said doesn't actually work all that well when your original post is still there for all to read. It's like a cat trying to bury a turd on a hardwood floor. You can take it as read that everyone here knows where government money comes from. That's not the issue. The question is whether this would be more efficient than the present system. Milton Friedman thought it would be. Despite his lack of infallibility, I trust his insight considerably more than I do that of a bunch of random morons.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 01:10 PM (m9EP3)

303 People usually overlook my high IQ when they find out about my 15" penis Don't tell me..you inspired the inventor of "The Club".

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 01:11 PM (WAgIq)

304 anyone besides me look at the Murray piece that the WaPo piece linked to? Here's a passage from it:

" It would require an amendment to the American Constitution that I am not competent to frame in legal language, but its sense is easy to express: Â’Henceforth, federal, state, and local governments shall make no law nor establish any program that provides benefits to some citizens but not to others. All programs currently providing such benefits are to be terminated. The funds formerly allocated to them are to be used instead to provide every citizen with a cash grant beginning at age twenty-one and continuing until death. The annual value of the cash grant at the programÂ’s outset is to be US$10,000.Â’ "

The left in this country will no more agree to that than they'd agree to an amendment to bad the fed'l income tax in return for a VAT or national sales tax.

Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:11 PM (bJm7W)

305 I guess me, Olaf, and Milton Friedman and Charles Murray are just insane retarded Communists and you folks who just heard about this 50-year-old idea for the first time two hours ago have it all figured out.

Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 01:11 PM (0llFJ)

306 I have a MENSA level IQ and I scored a perfect 36 out of 36 on the ACT. But other than that you're spot on chief. Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 05:01 PM (GEICT) Only because that ACT exam did't ask about nitrogen.

Posted by: Hanoverfist at May 11, 2013 01:12 PM (5S02w)

307

308 People usually overlook my high IQ when they find out about my 15" penis.

 

Do you have to use a thigh holster for that?

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 01:13 PM (LxEHG)

308 I trust his insight considerably more than I do that of a bunch of random morons. Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 05:10 PM (m9EP3) Ah. He did indeed bring more stooopid Bannion. He rocket surgeon, you do realize that's not an insult around here, right? "Moron" is a title worn with pride. But hey, keep on going, you haven't completely embarrassed yourself yet.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:13 PM (GEICT)

309 For those with ESPNU: NCAA Div I Lacrosse Championship First Round Games Today- Detroit vs Notre Dame On right now- Could be a good game. Detroit runs an unusual defense.

Posted by: Staff at May 11, 2013 01:13 PM (G9qZk)

310 #302 Opening with an insult here is like chumming the water while swimming in it. Andrew would have laughed and loved that comment. I'll be using it myself. That's brilliant.

Posted by: Jack at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (Zv1QB)

311 Only because that ACT exam did't ask about nitrogen. Posted by: Hanoverfist at May 11, 2013 05:12 PM (5S02w) I got that one right! Lol.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (GEICT)

312 re 309: "That's not the issue. The question is whether this would be more efficient than the present system"

only under very unlikely conditions, Olaf. I seriously doubt that the left from Pelosi and Reid on down, would agree to eliminating any other welfare programs until the GI had been around for some number of years, just to be sure... you know, because we wouldn't want any children to go to sleep hungry or anything like that...

Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (bJm7W)

313 "He rocket surgeon, you do realize that's not an insult around here, right?" No, really.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (m9EP3)

314 Dammit LDC beat me to it.

Posted by: Hanoverfist at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (5S02w)

315 But hey, keep on going, you haven't completely embarrassed yourself yet. He's got a good start though. Give him an hour and the drooling should start.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (WAgIq)

316
this 50-year-old idea
Posted by: infovore



A 50 year old solution to a 50 year old problem - an American with too much money.

Does not apply now.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 01:14 PM (kdS6q)

317 "I guess me, Olaf, and Milton Friedman and Charles Murray are just insane retarded Communists and you folks who just heard about this 50-year-old idea for the first time two hours ago have it all figured out." Indeed.

Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 01:15 PM (m9EP3)

318 Opening with an insult here is like chumming the water while swimming in it. That and then acting like you're the smartest guy in the room, when every succeeding post proves the opposite. Yeah, always a recipe for success.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 01:16 PM (WAgIq)

319 Seriously though, we should reintroduce the Spartan idea of thinning the herd. But with intelligence being the controlling factor instead of physical attributes.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 11, 2013 01:16 PM (GEICT)

320

312 I guess me, Olaf, and Milton Friedman and Charles Murray are just insane retarded Communists and you folks who just heard about this 50-year-old idea for the first time two hours ago have it all figured out.

 

Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 05:11 PM (0llFJ)

 

---------

 

Again with the passive-aggressive insults. ...Are you damaged?

 

 

Posted by: wheatie at May 11, 2013 01:17 PM (LxEHG)

321 re 308: "People usually overlook my high IQ when they find out about my 15" penis."

Sounds like Opposite World's Joe Biden.

Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:17 PM (bJm7W)

322 @Lauren... When commenting could you give me/us a reference point who you're trashing?  I like it, but can't see who you're trashing.

Posted by: olddog in mo at May 11, 2013 01:17 PM (A9na/)

323 Again with the passive-aggressive insults. ...Are you damaged? To ask the question is to answer it. Now, snatch the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper.

Posted by: Sean Bannion at May 11, 2013 01:18 PM (WAgIq)

324 Guys, guys, I think I'm really warming to this idea. It's gonna kill a lot of hobos. That's GOTTA be a big plus. It's a crazy idea, but it just. might. work.

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 01:18 PM (7vimm)

325 312 I guess me, Olaf, and Milton Friedman and Charles Murray are just insane retarded Communists and you folks who just heard about this 50-year-old idea for the first time two hours ago have it all figured out. Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 05:11 PM (0llFJ) Utilizing the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy to justify this shoddy proposal is not going to endear yourself further to people. Just sayin'.

Posted by: Thrawn at May 11, 2013 01:18 PM (JqnAE)

326 Yep, you've got us all figured out. We bow to your supreme intellect and appeals to authority.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 01:18 PM (wsGWu)

327 Sorry oldog, my phone is iffy on when it decide to quote, and when it decides to randomly spit out 8 clones of text. I was taking to Olaf.

Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2013 01:21 PM (wsGWu)

328 Posted by: Olaf the Norwegian Berserker at May 11, 2013 05:15 PM (m9EP3) So what happens when they blow through the 10k? You can use a lifeline and consult with infovore.

Posted by: RWC at May 11, 2013 01:23 PM (Wl/Ht)

329 re 312: Murray Rothbard, 1971:

In addition to the income tax itself, Friedman’s egalitarianism is revealed in the Friedman-Stigler pamphlet attacking rent controls. "For those, like us, who would like even more equality than there is at present . . . it is surely better to attack directly the existing inequalities in income and wealth at their source" than to restrict the purchases of particular commodities, like housing.6 The single most disastrous influence of Milton Friedman has been a legacy from his old Chicagoite egalitarianism: the proposal for a guaranteed annual income to everyone through the income tax system – an idea picked up and intensified by such leftists as Robert Theobald, and one which President Nixon will undoubtedly be able to ram through the new Congress.7* In this catastrophic scheme, Milton Friedman has once again been guided by his overwhelming desire not to remove the State from our lives, but to make the State more efficient. He looks around at the patchwork mess of local and state welfare systems, and concludes that all would be more efficient if the whole plan were placed under the federal income tax rubric and everyone were guaranteed a certain income floor. More efficient, perhaps, but also far more disastrous, for the only thing that makes our present welfare system even tolerable is precisely its inefficiency, precisely the fact that in order to get on the dole one has to push one’s way through an unpleasant and chaotic tangle of welfare bureaucracy. The Friedman scheme would make the dole automatic, and thereby give everyone an automatic claim upon production.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard43.html



Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:24 PM (bJm7W)

330 (wish that had formatted better, though)

Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:25 PM (bJm7W)

331 You do realize that "Utopia" means "Nowhere", don't you?

Posted by: zombie sir thomas more at May 11, 2013 01:28 PM (mGBy8)

332 I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but we already have a "universal basic income" in the cruel, heartless US of A - or what the heck else does this marxist jackwagon think is AFDC, WIC, public housing, massively subsidized higher education, public education in general, Medicaid, Obamacare, LI Fuel Assistance, SNAP, and the myriad other things available to any and all at various levels of government?

So, how's the "universal basic income" concept working out in practice? Behold, the folly of Utopia.

A commenter at the linked piece said it best - it takes a special breed of stupid to believe in this sort of "genius", much less say it out-loud, in what is, essentially, a national newspaper.

Posted by: DocJ at May 11, 2013 01:30 PM (V20sy)

333 Let me break this down so it is impossible to misunderstand without deliberate obtuseness. AOSHQ Initial Reaction: Only an insane retarded Communist could support this idea. New Fact: Milton Friedman supported this idea. Only two possible conclusions- 1. Milton Friedman is an insane retarded Communist. 2. AOSHQ's initial reaction was wrong. Anyway, nothing productive about discussing the actual substance of the idea with a bunch of people who only heard about it two hours ago and had a knee jerk reaction. You're not going to add anything to the discussion that hasn't already been argued at length. I just bristled at the initial reaction. If you actually want to form an educated opinion on this idea, there are plenty of sources including Friedman and Murray who discuss it intelligently. Or you can just circlejerk with a bunch of guys who heard about this idea two hours ago, formed a knee-jerk opinion, and don't wanna hear nuthin else.

Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 01:31 PM (0llFJ)

334 BCochran...this reminds me of the day one of the trolls said..."And you're like an expert on Haiti policy?"  "Yes, yes, in fact, I am."

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 11, 2013 01:32 PM (LYIrp)

335 @334 Lauren, no prob.  I went upthread and figured it out. I was just being lazy.

Posted by: olddog in mo at May 11, 2013 01:33 PM (A9na/)

336 Wait, let me get the opinion of the woman I saw yesterday at the 7-11 buying Funyuns and Diet Coke with her Link card on this.....

Posted by: Gem at May 11, 2013 01:34 PM (0k9Bw)

337 Amusing that some think that the first time that a lot of us have ever heard of this idea was today. Very amusing. Initially, anyway. Somewhat less so after sufficient repetition, however.

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 01:36 PM (7vimm)

338 re 340 --pls read what I posted at 336

Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:39 PM (bJm7W)

339 Posted by: infovore at May 11, 2013 05:31 PM (0llFJ)

Yeah, you trot out the part where Milton Friedman advocates this kind of transfer payment and maybe I'll take you seriously.

But until then, I'm just going to leave, because you have outlived your usefulness as a chew toy.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 11, 2013 01:39 PM (O6Tmi)

340
Only two possible conclusions-
1. Milton Friedman is an insane retarded Communist.
2. AOSHQ's initial reaction was wrong.

Anyway, nothing productive about discussing the actual substance of the idea with a bunch of people who only heard about it two hours ago
Posted by: infovore



1. As has been pointed out, many of us were quite familiar concept before two hours ago and have already evaluated the idea. As for the others, being able to read new information and analyze it is a skill they possess.

2. Milton Friedman need be need neither Angel or Demon.  He is just not infallible.

3.Only intellectual cowards and trolls do the whole "That was my last post because I won HA HA!" internet silliness.

4. U suck.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at May 11, 2013 01:40 PM (kdS6q)

341 re 345, sorry, read my post at 336

Posted by: mallfly at May 11, 2013 01:49 PM (bJm7W)

342 Madness. The horde wading across the Rio Grande to sign up would cause earthquakes. The social cost to our own people would be equivalent to a neutron bomb. Horrible, horrible idea.

Posted by: SurferDoc at May 11, 2013 01:53 PM (6H6FZ)

343 This UBI reminds me of the "prebate" favored by the so-called Fair Tax.  Both equally stupid.

Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper at May 11, 2013 01:55 PM (p8RjH)

344 yeah the leftists are idiots they thought the stock market was going to go up if Obama became POTUS

Posted by: occam at May 11, 2013 01:56 PM (DAHhf)

345 OMFG, the trollish, humorless dorks are *STILL* trying to isolate a partial idea from an article full of massive collectivist suck and defend it based largely on unstated premises (like the value of the subsidy). And with the piling on of the insults based on that hackery. SHOVEL CONTROL NOW!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 01:56 PM (qyfb5)

346

Infovore,

The old, old economy was fine.

 

If you wanted to work, there was work for you.

 

If you didn't want to work, you'd lose weight quickly.

 

Sometimes there ISN'T a better mousetrap.

Posted by: seamrog at May 11, 2013 01:58 PM (a8hHx)

347 Before the merits of this can even be discussed, you'd have to believe that all other forms of welfare would be abolished once this was in place and those that blew through their stipend would be turned away if they were starving or couldn't afford emergency room care. If you don't believe that will ever happen, then this argument's just pissing in the wind.

Posted by: Clownf*cker at May 11, 2013 02:01 PM (fdBil)

348 The author's contentions: 1. A UBI of unstated value to replace various transfer programs. Mind you, the author walks that back with "a better system of social insurance and public goods," bringing "THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING" to the party up front. 2. Universal unionization. Actually, they said "not only unionization, but also a more general project of democracy that doesnÂ’t end once you walk through your employerÂ’s door." 3. The removal of "basic needs" from the market - food, housing, healthcare to be government programs. 4. Manipulation of the market through UBI, presumably varying payments, mentioned toward the end of the article. You know, the article *most of us* are talking about here, as opposed to just trying to start a flame war because we're bored.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s] at May 11, 2013 02:02 PM (qyfb5)

349 C'mon, you guys are being way too hard on infovore and Olaf.  This scheme could easily work.

All you need to do is adjust the population levels down a bit to limit payouts, and ensure the economy remains static to eliminate the risk of inflation.

See? Easy!

Posted by: Blanco Basura at May 11, 2013 02:03 PM (jGsIV)

350 I've been a hardworking man for my entire life, supporting a wife and putting kids through college, while still donating to my church and charities, but if I was offered a shameless work free guaranteed living at a minimalist but adequite level, I'd join the leisure poor in a second. This idea is madness. Almost no one would work.

Posted by: toby928© at May 11, 2013 02:04 PM (QupBk)

351 Eliminating poverty is an essential part of any egalitarian project and the whip that prevents idleness.

Posted by: toby928© at May 11, 2013 02:07 PM (QupBk)

352 Imagine the business fertility clinics would do.  8-9 babies would be $80-90,000. 

Certainly an idea this bad would not discriminate against children, I take it?

Posted by: Herbert Hymenhopper at May 11, 2013 02:09 PM (p8RjH)

353 And doesn't the total federal gov't budget work out to around 12k per person per year? How do all the things that're actually called out in the constitution as responsibilities of the federal gov't paid for when all taxes collected at our current rates get redistributed evenly amongst the populace?

Posted by: Clownf*cker at May 11, 2013 02:10 PM (fdBil)

354 We should just divide all the land that the US government owns among the people. Titled, free and clear, by lottery. You can keep it, work it, live on it, or sell it to anyone that wants to pay. You might get desert, or prime timber, or oil or coal lands, or even gold mines.

Posted by: toby928© at May 11, 2013 02:15 PM (QupBk)

355 Da derp dee derp.

Posted by: Charlie Choadsmoker at May 11, 2013 02:19 PM (WMsq+)

356 I`m thinking GMI might be good. Here FSA, 10,000 green stamps to help put a roof over your head and food in your belly until next year at this time. Get your ass a job or do without until April 15th. You must file with us before this date to requalify (reup).

Posted by: rightlysouther(aim low boys theys ridin ponies) at May 11, 2013 02:20 PM (uOxBm)

357 Given that we should consider it a major win if Congress makes it through the year without the GOP forcing a default on the national debt ... Mike Konczal is a fellow at the Roosevelt Institute How exactly do retards get these fine gigs? Is it the cock sucking or what?

Posted by: toby928© at May 11, 2013 02:21 PM (QupBk)

358 "How exactly do retards get these fine gigs? Is it the cock sucking or what"

Yes.  Yes it is.

Posted by: Kal Penn at May 11, 2013 02:22 PM (WMsq+)

359 Stock Raising Homestead Act. Ammended so as Settler owns sub-surface rights and Title to Property after 5 years of continuance.

Posted by: rightlysouther(aim low boys theys ridin ponies) at May 11, 2013 02:33 PM (uOxBm)

360 It takes an advanced degree, at least an MA, to achieve that level of stoopid as displayed in the article. As for the commentators...Jesus wept. The author, I think he violated the "Never Go Full Retard" rule though.

Posted by: JamesT at May 11, 2013 02:35 PM (blYjC)

361 The author, I think he violated the "Never Go Full Retard" rule though. As did a poster or two on this thread here, come to think of it.

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 02:38 PM (7vimm)

362 Oh, so now you're calling Milton Friedman a retard?  Well, fuck you, you dumbshits!  I win because you called me names second!

Posted by: coprovore at May 11, 2013 02:40 PM (WMsq+)

363 Curiously, the book I'm currently reading is F.A. Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism."

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 02:45 PM (7vimm)

364 #200

Some idiots don't seem to get the idea of discussing a bad idea in a serious way so as to make people understand for themselves why it is a bad idea.

Jonathan Swift wasn't actually advocating for the consumption of Irish babies. He was trying to make people think.

Doesn't work with some people.

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 02:52 PM (kcfmt)

365 Milton Friedman totally wanted to eat Irish babies.  Google it.

Posted by: coprovore at May 11, 2013 02:54 PM (WMsq+)

366 I'm at a loss to understand the difference between universal union membership and having no unions at all with a totalitarian government. What difference is there between a union in which all citizens are members and a dictatorship?

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 02:57 PM (kcfmt)

367 #224

If you are going to jump into a battle of wits, do remember to bring some ammo.

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 02:58 PM (kcfmt)

368 Ya know, "infovore" sounds a lot like "Info Wars."

Just saying.

Posted by: cool arrow at May 11, 2013 03:01 PM (WMsq+)

369 What difference is there between a union in which all citizens are members and a dictatorship? Union dues are just slightly less than dictatorship dues.

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 03:01 PM (7vimm)

370 Not sure I know where to start . Let's see it's humiliating to get drug tested to receive benefits , but it wasn't when enlisting military personnel have to do it or when I get stopped at a DUI safety checked point when doing nothing wrong but being at wrong place at the wrong time . That's what it is folks a random drug test with law enforcement discretion . As for the workers' paradise . As required to by law my dental office has a lot of old magazines , a more recent National Geographic has an article on Cuba . One worker in this socialist paradise states" the governments pretends to pay us , we pretend to work." Some 80percent of Cuba works for the government . And I can you tell everyone , from personnel experience and reality that most physicians are not happy with Medicaid and Medicare . They prefer private insurance or cash or MC/Visa .

Posted by: DrDrill at May 11, 2013 03:01 PM (L3nHO)

371 No no no, DrDrill, that can't be right.  Cuba has the awesomest health care anywhere!  Some morbidly obese leftist hypocrite said so.

Posted by: cool arrow at May 11, 2013 03:03 PM (WMsq+)

372 #340

False set of choices.

As pointed out by the Rothbard passage, Friedman was not an infallible oracle of all economic wisdom. He was human like anyone else and like any human was subject to embracing defective ideas that held appeal on a deep level to solve problems that remain insoluble. This is akin to the scientist who would rather defend a badly flawed flawed hypothesis to the bitter end than settle for allowing a portion of his field to be labeled 'we don't know and may never know.'

The correct choice is #3) Friedman was subject to an emotionalism that flawed his thinking on this subject and invited much criticism from his colleagues who held other of his ideas in high respect.

Posted by: epobirs at May 11, 2013 03:06 PM (kcfmt)

373 It's not even some kind of thought experiment, but a simple math problem. The numbers just don't support being able to redistribute that 10k per citizen (or whatever worthwhile number you'd want to use) without approaching confiscatory levels of taxation on the productive classes.

Posted by: Clownf*cker at May 11, 2013 03:09 PM (fdBil)

374 Friedman also believed in compulsory catastrophic care insurance, so he wasn't exactly infallible.

Posted by: Clownf*cker at May 11, 2013 03:12 PM (fdBil)

375 "The numbers just don't support being able to redistribute that 10k per citizen (or whatever worthwhile number you'd want to use) without approaching confiscatory levels of taxation on the productive classes."

Ah, there's the rub.  Leftists are totally in favor of confiscatory levels of taxation.  On anyone who has a dollar more than they do, that is.

Posted by: cool arrow at May 11, 2013 03:12 PM (WMsq+)

376 It's not even some kind of thought experiment, but a simple math problem. The numbers just don't support being able to redistribute that 10k per citizen (or whatever worthwhile number you'd want to use) without approaching confiscatory levels of taxation on the productive classes. And also, as my unrefuted post upthread noted, the policy would also be seriously detrimental to some of the very people it purported to help. Thus being a perfect example of a well-intentioned, addle-pated socialist scheme.

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 03:12 PM (7vimm)

377 If Michael Moore emigrated to Cuba, they would send his fat ass out to a Worker's Health Camp where he would chop sugar cane until he weighed a svelte 180lbs. I would pay full theater price including popcorn and Red Vines to see a film of that.

Posted by: SurferDoc at May 11, 2013 03:14 PM (6H6FZ)

378 "the policy would also be seriously detrimental to some of the very people it purported to help."

Which the Democrats can then blame on Republicans in perpetuity.  Standard operating procedure.

Posted by: cool arrow at May 11, 2013 03:14 PM (WMsq+)

379 Well 378 , I remember reading that " Sicko" was pulled from public viewing in Cuba. Apparently the workers in this paradise took great umbrage with the hospitals and clinics displayed in the film . Apparently the average Cuban is unable to receive treatment at these medical centers . Hmmmm. On another note, The Old School Socialist Soviet Union would show the old school movie Grapes of Wraith to display the abject failures of the the US system . The Soviets farmers where in shock . The Americans own their own tractors and they can have private ownership of land ,please Comrades can Mother Russia achieve this level of failure ?

Posted by: DrDrill at May 11, 2013 03:21 PM (L3nHO)

380 In regards to the Jimmy Johns story.....Is Rev. Dr. Martin Rafana or any other genius connected to this organized stupidity aware that a "franchise" is locally owned and NOT A PART OF THIS MULTI BAZILLIONTY DOLLAR CORPORATION????? Are they truly that stupid? Yes they are. They need to be ignored and ostracized to the extent possible. We are dying out here thanks to rocket scientists like this Rev. Dr. Martin Rafana and his ilk.

Posted by: Baconfat at May 11, 2013 03:24 PM (V9ENJ)

381 O for the record " utopia " was an underapperciated Intellivision game . Damm I hate those Hurricanes . And will someone please cited actual sources that say Milton went for a utopia . I remember Free Markets and the pencil but not this .

Posted by: DrDrill at May 11, 2013 03:29 PM (L3nHO)

382 Utopia was a pretty decent band too.  Notwithstanding Todd Rundgren's being a lefty dupe.

Posted by: cool arrow at May 11, 2013 03:33 PM (WMsq+)

383 yeah the leftists are idiots they thought the stock market was going to go up if Obama became POTUS They thought the economy would go gangbusters thanks to universal health care and "green" energy. Enjoy your epic <2% GDP "growth", and even that, most of it thanks to "unexpected" 100%-contra-Obama-policy private sector energy extraction. You stupid fuck.

Posted by: Waterhouse at May 11, 2013 03:39 PM (J0TC5)

384 Worst recovery out of any recession, occam. You stupid fuck.

Posted by: Waterhouse at May 11, 2013 03:41 PM (J0TC5)

385 F.A. Hayek: "The demands of socialism are not moral conclusions derived from the traditions that formed the extended order that made civilization possible. Rather, they endeavor to overthrow those traditions by a rationally designed moral system whose appeal depends on the instinctual appeal of its promised consequences. They assume that, since people had been able to generate some system of rules coordinating their efforts, they must also be able to design an even better and more gratifying system. But if humankind owes its very existence to one particular rule-guided form of conduct of proven effectiveness, it simply does not have the option of choosing another merely for the sake of the apparent pleasantness of its immediate visible effects. The dispute between the market order and socialism is no less than a matter of survival. To follow socials morality would destroy much of present humankind and impoverish much of the rest."

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 03:43 PM (7vimm)

386 Ultra-low labor force participation, occam. You stupid fuck.

Posted by: Waterhouse at May 11, 2013 03:43 PM (J0TC5)

387 Epic deficits to prop up a tepid "growth" story, occam. You stupid fuck.

Posted by: Waterhouse at May 11, 2013 03:44 PM (J0TC5)

388 Aargh. Almost typed it in w/o error. "To follow socialist morality would destroy much of present humankind and impoverish much of the rest." (Way to blow the punchline, filbert!)

Posted by: filbert the Whig at May 11, 2013 03:45 PM (7vimm)

389 So let me get this straight.

Occam is a stupid fuck.

Posted by: cool arrow at May 11, 2013 03:51 PM (WMsq+)

390 you guys are still here?

stupid fucks.

Posted by: Peaches at May 11, 2013 03:55 PM (8lmkt)

391

So if they dont abolish the income tax, then all you morons get taxed on your addl 30,k.  Of course you dont benefit from it because inflation adjusts prices upward, and the dimotard base, who is not paying fed income tax anyway, gets the most benefit, but mostly only short run and makes them further dependent and wanting of increases UBI payments to offset for inflation. 

A perfect microcosm of the liberal politics of wishfulment leading to economic desolation and character ruination.    So hopelessly delusional they should be institutionalized.

Posted by: simpleton at May 11, 2013 03:55 PM (NGsLN)

392

In regards to Friedman's negative tax proposal, don't we have that now with the Earned Income Credit? So far that hasn't done jack shit to help the welfare situation.

Posted by: NotAMoose at May 11, 2013 04:09 PM (ZZg4j)

393 I don't want to break up the party, but a minimum income is actually better economically than a hodge lodge of govt programs.

Posted by: HoboJerky at May 11, 2013 04:21 PM (52n2x)

394 I don't want to break up the party, but a minimum income is actually better economically than a hodge lodge of govt programs. Possibly. But it's an example of trying to make a failing idea fail more slowly and efficiently. LiFB.

Posted by: toby928© at May 11, 2013 04:51 PM (QupBk)

395 First!!!! Now that we all have a minimum number of firsts And firstness is not tied to effort

Posted by: GeneTheFirst at May 11, 2013 05:15 PM (QSHbO)

396 What would really happen is the hobos would get 30k and the government would come up with new systems to assist them, you will find government willingly downsizing. It doesn't matter how you describe it, a turd is still a turd and this idea is one hell of a turd.

Posted by: Rob in Katy at May 11, 2013 07:46 PM (PiTBB)

397

OK, I'm new here and don't understand the in-house dialog, but just to take note of the original post . . . hafta think it would be obvious to mock the Wonkblog (!?!) for his bereft knowledge of basic economics. 

. . . i.e. inject wage income w/ no increase in productivity (raise price, don't increase supply), and inevitably a decrease in demand . . . (for wage labor) . . . and employment goes down.

The lefties can waive their hands at min wage or min income for the rest of time, but they cannot legislate away the 'invisible hand.'

> and every attempt to do so will resuly in 'unintended' (read 'unexpected') consequences that reduce economic growth.

 

Best Regards,

Posted by: CAPT Mike at May 11, 2013 10:03 PM (DiQnH)

398 Dang it. It is my turn to be first. Viva la redistributional era!!!

Posted by: GeneTheFirst at May 13, 2013 11:47 AM (MDY9p)

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