December 24, 2013
— Ace Very good piece by Kathryn Jean Lopez.
Bob Newhart had been scheduled to headline a convention of Catholic business leaders called Legatus.
GLAAD ask-threatened him to cancel.
And get this: Newhart is scheduled to appear alongside such noted anti-LGBT figures as the Catholic League's Bill Donohue and Rick "man on dog" Santorum. Yeah, it's going to be that kind of a night. Why in Larry, Darryl, and my other brother Darryl's name would Mr. Newhart, legendary TV star and one of the most genuinely well-liked people to ever appear before a film camera, sign up for such a gig?!In 2012, Kirk Cameron provoked a storm of controversy when he told Piers Morgan that marriage equality is, "detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization." Hundreds told Cameron it was time to grow up. His Growing Pains co-star Tracy Gold was joined by several celebrities to condemn his words. And the National Organization for Marriage realized that they found their "non-cognitive elite" spokesperson.
Personally, I'm choosing to believe that he just doesn't know and that this booking is the result of bad advice. I'm looking at this post as an opportunity to fill in the missing details so that Mr. Newhart makes a more informed choice rather than presuming to know his intent. That's the only way I know to approach it, since I can't stand to think that this man who I admire is actually supportive of the truly shocking ideas that I showed you at the beginning of this post. As a kid who stayed up late to watch Nick at Nite reruns of multiple Newhart shows, I have to believe that this is an act of ignorance, not malice. I have to believe that he simply doesn't know.
GLAAD is reaching out to Mr. Newhart's representatives to let them know how, exactly, an appearance at this event will come across to LGBT people and allied voices. I am hoping that I am right, and Mr. Newhart doesn't want to go down that path. He can still express his Catholic faith in a way more consistent with the rest of American Catholics, by loving and supporting his LGBT friends and family. GLAAD is urging him to do the right thing.
The "Where are they now?" question -- suggesting that Kirk Cameron's career was ended, or at least damaged, by GLAAD -- combined with GLAAD's admonition not to "go down that path" is clearly a warning to Newhart that he can expect consequences should he speak at Legatus.
Well, he took the hint. He cancelled.
What makes this even sadder is that Newhart himself noted the importance of the free trade in humor in politics and thought. From Lopez's post:
Humor “makes us free.”That was Bob Newhart’s observation during a commencement address at my alma mater, the Catholic University of America in 1997. “As long as the tyrant cannot control the minds of free men, they remain free,” the comedian continued. “Humor abounded behind the Iron Curtain and in POW camps. Humor is also our way of dealing with the inexplicable. We had an earthquake a couple of years ago in Los Angeles, and it wasn’t more than three or four days later that I heard the first earthquake joke. Someone said, ‘The traffic is stopped, but the freeways are moving.’”
“Laughter gives us distance,” he went on to say.
Newhart continued:
It allows us to step back from an event over which we have no control and deal with it and then move on with our lives. It helps distinguish us from animals. No matter what hyenas sound like, they are not actually laughing. It also helps define our sanity. The schizophrenic has no sense of humor. His world is a constantly daunting, unfriendly place. The rational man is able to find humor in his.Erasmus wrote in Praise of Folly, “No society, no union in life could be either pleasant or lasting without me,” of course, meaning folly.
People with a sense of humor tend to be less egocentric and more realistic in their view of the world and more humble in moments of success and less defeated in times of travail. I certainly donÂ’t delude myself that there arenÂ’t certainly more important things to do in life than make people laugh, but I canÂ’t imagine anything that would bring me more joy.
There is indeed a culture war, and the left are the aggressors. As Erick Erickson frequently notes: "You Will Be Made To Care," quite against your will, if that's what's needed.
GLAAD has no moral high ground here at all. They posture as being anti-bullying, while being the biggest bullies on the playground. What GLAAD does as its normal daily routine -- threatening, demanding firings, demanding ostracism -- is what they claim to oppose.
In the Gay fundamentalists' crude and fearful view of the world, here is the threat posed by Christianity: Christianity demands that gays renounce a core part of their selves in order to join polite society. If they refuse to renounce a core part of their selves, then they will be excluded from society, by use of social pressure to harass, insult, humiliate, ostracize, and economically marginalize those gays who will not fall into line.
GLAAD would say this is utterly unacceptable, intolerant, bullying, incivil, and unAmerican.
And yet what is GLAAD's mission? What is it they actually seek?
GLAAD demands that Christians (fundmentalists, Catholics, those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible) renounce a core part of their selves in order to join polite society. If they refuse, they will be excluded from society, by use of social pressure to harass, insult, humiliate, ostracize, and economically marginalize those Christians who do not fall into line.
In what possible way is GLAAD's mission less bullying than that which they claim their enemies have in mind?
I have never believed this nonsense that a gay person should become "straight." I doubt it's possible. I think a gay person can pose as straight, as they have long done throughout history. But to become straight? No.
This is far too big a request to make of someone, no matter what the claimed good that will come from it. Christians may believe that gays will be happier as straights, or at least will be more in communion with God. I doubt that, but even if that were true, one can't help but note this is a much heavier burden than the average Christian is asked to heft.
But then this same thinking leaves me a little bewildered by GLAAD's demands: They don't ask much... only that people, in order to make gays happier and more in communion with common society, give up one of the central pillars of their religious beliefs.
As I would say that asking a gay to become straight, or making no allowances for his "sin" (given that he has a specific urge to "sin" that the average heterosexual does not), I would also say some allowance must be made for those who believe, in their hearts and spirits, that the Bible is literally true in all respects.
And the Bible does indeed say that homosexuality is sinful. Seven times, in fact, and never suggests the contrary proposition that it is not.
One would be perfectly within one's rights to object to discrimination on this basis.
But not to object to someone's naked thought -- unclothed by actual action, by actual discrimination, by actual harm.
That is simply making thought a crime.
The Christian problem with homosexuality is twofold. First, they object to the mainstreaming of homosexuality. They object to its normalization. I disagree with them on that, but I understand why they object: After all, of all the sins noted in the Bible, almost all of them are still universally acknowledged as sinful. There is no movement to suggest that lying isn't anything other than immoral (except when a Democratic president does it, of course). There is no movement to normalize murder (though Christians, and all right-thinking people, object when the left attempts to normalize, or at least "understand," murder, and punish it less severely).
Christians who believe in the literal truth of the Bible must believe homosexuality is a sin. They don't necessarily have to take actions in furtherance of that belief, but they do need to believe it.
In terms the gay left will understand: They were born that way.
However, this is only the smaller part of Christians' objection to homosexuality. This may have been the main objection 20 years ago, but there's a much more serious objection today.
Christians' main problem with what they term the homosexual agenda is not, anymore, that homosexuality is being normalized.
Christians main problem with what they term the homosexual agenda is now that the normalization of homosexuality is the goal, but the main tactic used to accomplish this goal is the Denormalization of Christianity.
We're no longer just talking about gays joining society on equal footing. That is, I would say, a laudable thing.
But we are now talking about gays joining society, at the same time the left kicks one-fifth to one-third of America out of society.
And that's a step too far. No right-thinking man (and here I use "right-thinking" to mean "correct in thought," not right-leaning) can possibly accept that one of the world's great religions must be denormalized -- marginalized, humiliated, harassed, boycotted, driven from the light and into the shadows -- in order to accommodate any minority group's aspirations.
That is, as I say, too large a demand.
And that is why there is so much anger over this, over Robertson's firing, over the "War on Christmas," all of it. It's not just about the proposition that gays are normal -- it's about the much-more vigorously pushed proposition that Christians are abnormal.
That they need to be "cured," in fact. That they might need therapy to cure them of their "disorders" of the mind. That they might need to be excluded from society, to prevent them from infecting it further with their perverted ideas.
I'm not exaggerating here. I hardly need to. Here is Andrew Sullivan announcing that fundamentalist-oriented Christians are in fact mentally and psychologically disordered:
In that last round-up of sins, Robertson puts homosexuality first, then adultery, then lying. The last two are actually in the Ten Commandments – and yet “homosexuality” is on their level, along with the view that somehow homosexual orientation can be prayed away (something that the largest Christian denomination on earth, the Catholic Church, denies). And this fundamentalist psychology then deepens:
If you break one sin you may as well break them all. If we lose our morality, we will lose our country. It will happen.Again, as Christian doctrine, this is bonkers. There are obvious levels of sinfulness; the smallest white lie is not the same as a rape, and committing one does not mean committing them all. But you can hear the rhythms of the terrified fundamentalist psyche behind all these words. It is not enough for sins to occur (because that would make our time no different than any other); it is always the case that we are confronting a crisis of sinfulness, and that crisis is always spinning out of control into apocalyptic scenarios. So you give in to the gays, you give in to everything evil, because “if you break one sin you may as well break them all.” And if you break them all, America ceases to exist.
To recap: fundamentalism is not the same as Christianity. It has certain psychological tropes. The first is to see sexual sin as by far the worst of them and the root of all of them. The second is to see gays – whose very being represents sexual sin – as an enemy class within a society bringing about its destruction if they are not stopped or converted (see: Jews, Europe, circa 1300 – 1945). The third is to see these gays as opening the door to every other sin and evil. The fourth is to “lose our country.”
I'm quite unsure how Andrew Sullivan can object to claims that homosexuality should be considered a psychological disorder and listed in the DSM when he himself suggests that fundamentalist Christianity should be so listed.
And I do not know from whence Sullivan purchased his high horse on the subject of believing that those who disagree with you constitute "an enemy class within a society bringing about its destruction if they are not stopped or converted (see: Jews, Europe, circa 1300 – 1945)."
He has long treated Christians as an "enemy class within a society which could bring about its destruction." He created the (rather thick-headed) slur "Christianist," for example, and has fulminated about solutions to the dire problem of traditionalist Christians for quite some time now.
Is Andrew Sullivan, or GLAAD, offering any peaceable, more civil way out of this unending conflict of gays versus Christians? No, not at all.
Sullivan and GLAAD are every bit the intolerant, paranoid, darkly-muttering fundamentalist scolds and prigs they imagine their enemies to be.
They do not suggest some way in which both gays and Christians can simultaneously win, or any way in which this conflict can be resolved in the usual manner, which is simply patching it up with a series of compromises and then muddling on through.
No, they demand a certain Winner, and they demand a certain Loser.
They do not disagree that one perverted, disordered, trouble-making and distasteful minority be excluded from civil society; they simply have a different minority in mind.
That's unacceptable. To anyone who values freedom of thought, belief, speech, and conscience, that's unacceptable.
As I observed during the Sacco Lynch Mob: There is nothing more frightening than a weakling who suddenly gets a sense of power. Because the weakling, unaccustomed to having a position of power over someone else, has not learned for himself to the proper restraints on the employment of coercive power.
And the weakling has years of resentments behind him. The weakling seeks payback.
The older I get the more I realize that wielding power is not strength; restraint in using power is strength. Vengeance is not strength; vengeance is weakness, borne of fear and anger, and nourished by grievance.
The strong can afford mercy in a way the weaklings cannot.
Mercy is strength, and goodwill is strength, and restraint is strength.
Empathy is strength. Questioning one's beliefs is strength. Seeking to actually understand what frightens one's opponents is strength.
And, yes, as silly as this disordered, perverted Christian thought may be, loving your enemy is strength.
I not only despise these coordinated efforts to shut people up, to make them silent; but I also pity them.
Someone who knows he is right -- who knows he has a sense of the Truth -- does not need to coerce his opponents into silence. A man speaking the truth should win out, at least three quarters of the time, over those without it.
So these efforts to shut people up seem to me to be borne not of conviction, but of doubt; not of courage, but of fear; not of strength, but of weakness.
If you're so certain you're right, I always want to ask the Enforcers of Silence, why are my words such a threat to you?
Let's maybe all try to be stronger this Christmas.
Posted by: Ace at
09:44 AM
| Comments (452)
Post contains 2586 words, total size 16 kb.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 09:50 AM (XIxXP)
Yeah. No.
Bigotry isn't any prettier when it's directed at Christians. And, as always, note that GLAAD isn't saying a single damn thing to Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam.
The reason why is as obvious as it is cowardly.
Posted by: alexthechick - Really Universe Really? at December 24, 2013 09:50 AM (Gk3SS)
Normal (n) - the usual, average, or typical state or condition.
Posted by: Webster at December 24, 2013 09:52 AM (Dwehj)
Fucking fascist douches.
Posted by: J. Random Dude at December 24, 2013 09:52 AM (8OfdL)
Posted by: junior at December 24, 2013 09:53 AM (FU1yE)
Posted by: Kinley Ardal at December 24, 2013 09:53 AM (bD9rj)
Well played, GLAAD!
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 09:53 AM (8ZskC)
Maybe. But no more mercy, goodwill or restraint with these bastards.
Posted by: FB at December 24, 2013 09:54 AM (0zL9Z)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 09:55 AM (Qev5V)
Posted by: oeJay44incday at December 24, 2013 09:55 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: westminsterdogshow at December 24, 2013 09:55 AM (W3UHW)
Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at December 24, 2013 09:57 AM (6Nqkf)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 09:57 AM (Qev5V)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 09:58 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Infidel at December 24, 2013 09:58 AM (O/fK8)
Posted by: EROWMER at December 24, 2013 09:58 AM (OONaw)
Nice post, by the way Ace. I said this the other day, you do really good work with these long essays.
Posted by: J. Random Dude at December 24, 2013 09:58 AM (8OfdL)
The older I get the more I realize that wielding power is not strength; restraint in using power is strength. Vengeance is not strength; vengeance is weakness, borne of fear and anger, and nourished by grievance.
The strong can afford mercy in a way the weaklings cannot.
Mercy is strength, and goodwill is strength, and restraint is strength.
Empathy is strength. Questioning one's beliefs is strength. Seeking to actually understand what frightens one's opponents is strength.
And, yes, as silly as this disordered, perverted Christian thought may be, loving your enemy is strength.
AMEN! Sounding very Christian-like there, Ace.
Posted by: graywaiter at December 24, 2013 09:59 AM (dYVUU)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 09:59 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: eman at December 24, 2013 09:59 AM (EWsrI)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:00 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: oeJay44incday at December 24, 2013 10:00 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: razor419 at December 24, 2013 10:00 AM (xuW1+)
You find extremists on both sides of every issue. People (aligned with you) boycotted JC Penny for having the temerity to simply hire a lesbian as a spokesperson. Nothing about any over messaging. Just the simple fact that their spokesperson was a (well liked) lesbian. Yes it's stupid. But it's obviously not something isolated to one side or the other.
Stop being such babies about this. Yes, people don't like your side's bigotry. Is that so strange? No one is asking anyone to be pro-gay. They are simply asking people to not be overtly anti-gay. If you can't do that, you reap the whirlwind. That's your choice. If you are racist at heart and can't resist being overtly so, you reap the same thing. That's what happens when you are a bigot. Regardless of whether you think your bigotry is ordained by Jesus himself or not.
Cry me a river.
You aren't the victims here. Never were. Never will be.
Merry Christmas.
SS
Posted by: seattle slough at December 24, 2013 10:00 AM (mCz8+)
Posted by: oeJay44incday at December 24, 2013 10:01 AM (QxSug)
Well played, GLAAD!
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 01:53 PM (8ZskC)
Me too. I voted against my states amendment to ban gay marriage years ago. I didn't think it was something that needed to be enshrined in the states constitution. And while I guess I still feel that way, the actions of these gay fascists since makes me regret that vote.
Posted by: J. Random Dude at December 24, 2013 10:01 AM (8OfdL)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:02 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Muad'dib at December 24, 2013 10:02 AM (PlTXA)
For years I've heard Newhart and Don Rickles tell stories about how they are close friends. It's true, they are. This would be a good time for Bob to tell GLADD, "You know what? I'm going to let my friend Don respond to your threat."
But neither of these guys gets political. It's part of their charm.
Posted by: CJ at December 24, 2013 10:04 AM (9KqcB)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:04 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: SpaceCommie at December 24, 2013 10:05 AM (y9dfJ)
I think divorce is a big problem in our country, and is FAR more detrimental to the family structure than homosexuality. Yet I don't think it would be a good thing for Christians to rail against divorced parents that they're destroying civilization and that they're an abmonination.
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 10:05 AM (pS6g3)
Posted by: oeJay44incday at December 24, 2013 10:05 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: Muad'dib at December 24, 2013 10:05 AM (PlTXA)
Posted by: Optimizer at December 24, 2013 10:05 AM (saDM3)
Allen G.
I see you are a church of Christer:
"Funny. Then why is that said in the Bible? "If you break any part of the Law, you break the whole of the Law.""
I dare you to find that in Scripture.
Posted by: Ken at December 24, 2013 10:07 AM (SgBGg)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:07 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:07 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: SlapNutz at December 24, 2013 10:07 AM (vVSAz)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:07 AM (/FnUH)
I often want to remind my Christian friends that where the "Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." Christ calls us to repentance, but he is a personal God who deals personally with us.
We can suggest ways to improve our culture and our society, but we need to be careful not to judge others. That is a job God reserves for himself. And, the only way our non-Christian friends are going to want to believe is if they see us acting as Christ commands us: "Love your Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."
Merry Christmas to Ace, the cobs and all the moron nation. May you all know the hope that came to us that first Christmas night.
And, may God bless you everyone.
Posted by: Liberty Lover at December 24, 2013 10:07 AM (rKqYL)
Posted by: blue.dot at December 24, 2013 10:08 AM (Mrgw2)
Posted by: Mr. Wizard at December 24, 2013 10:08 AM (MhA4j)
Yes, it is called the tyranny of the weak. My late MIL "enjoyed" a number of middling severe illnesses that let her bully her devoted husband. She absolutely gloried in being sick.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:08 AM (kXoT0)
Not exactly. Nobody is trying to mau-mau gays into silence or heterosexuality.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 10:09 AM (8ZskC)
Posted by: oeJay44incday at December 24, 2013 10:10 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:10 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at December 24, 2013 10:10 AM (6Nqkf)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 10:10 AM (Qev5V)
Posted by: Conned town at December 24, 2013 10:10 AM (bKjXJ)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 02:07 PM (PYAXX)
He has come out of retirement to do two very funny Big Bang Theory appearances as Professor Proton along with Bill Nye the Science Guy.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:11 AM (kXoT0)
You aren't the victims here. Never were. Never will be.
Merry Christmas.
SS
Posted by: seattle slough at December 24, 2013 02:00 PM
Is that SS the emblem on your collar now since you've joined the Gaystapo?
Posted by: kbdabear at December 24, 2013 10:11 AM (aTXUx)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:11 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: backhoe at December 24, 2013 10:11 AM (ULH4o)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 10:12 AM (VXOfH)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:12 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: SlapNutz at December 24, 2013 10:13 AM (vVSAz)
Posted by: K. Costner/M. Freeman at December 24, 2013 10:14 AM (o9Rp5)
I think I'll stick with my Faith. Thank you very much.
Error cui non resistitur approbatur, et veritas quae minime defensatur, opprimitur: error which is not opposed, is approved, and the truth which is defended only minimally, is oppressedÂ’ Pope Felix III
Posted by: havildar-major at December 24, 2013 10:14 AM (kduZC)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:14 AM (XIxXP)
With all due respect, Ace, Newhart is worth an estimated $65,000,000. So maybe he was NOT in it for the money, unless he planned to donate his speaking fee to a pet charity. He still gets residuals from The Bob Newhart Show.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:14 AM (kXoT0)
Yes. I believe they sneak up on unsuspecting gays in bars, throw a pillowcase over there head and drag them to a waiting van. In seven days - BOOM. They're fapping to pictures of Sarah Palin.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 10:14 AM (8ZskC)
Posted by: Inspector Cussword at December 24, 2013 10:14 AM (zZ+Bs)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:15 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: Lauren at December 24, 2013 10:15 AM (hFL/3)
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 02:09 PM (8ZskC)
Doesn't Michele Bachman, (whose politics I mostly agree with) have a husband that ran a Christian center of some sorts that tried to take Homosexual young people and with the power of Jesus or some such, make them straight?
Did he kidnap them off the streets, or did they come in voluntarily?
Posted by: rickb223 at December 24, 2013 10:16 AM (d0Dmj)
Posted by: awkward davies at December 24, 2013 10:16 AM (WK8VM)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:17 AM (kXoT0)
Posted by: SlapNutz at December 24, 2013 10:17 AM (vVSAz)
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at December 24, 2013 10:17 AM (R8hU8)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:18 AM (XIxXP)
The Ghey Maphia doesn't suppress free speech because they think people who say homosexuality is unnatural or a destructive force in society are WRONG. They suppress free speech when people say those things because they know in their hearts that those things are CORRECT, and they cannot, ever, allow those things to be said because people might actually think about them in more detail and decide for themselves.
When those two fucktards were tittering over saying Phil Robertson should go ahead and try anal sex to see if he might actually like it, somewhere in the black recesses of their twisted, juvenile minds was the almost completely suppressed thought: "Who in their right mind could possibly think that jamming your dick into some hairy dude's shit-filled, hairy ass could be better than sliding into a nice healthy, moist vagina?"
Sorry to be graphic, but there it is. The most important issues of our time are all about the details. Ghey sex for one. A second is abortion. Planned Parenthood suppresses pictures of aborted babies not to spare viewers from upset, but to keep the truth from being seen by people that would end up making up their minds about the subject in a way that PP can't handle.
Think of every single issue in which the totalitarian left loses its collective shit every time someone dares to utter something they don't like. That's where the truth lies.
Posted by: Sharkman at December 24, 2013 10:18 AM (TM1p8)
I'm you guys. I used to go out of my way to be "tolerant." Didn't get me much, did it?
Posted by: backhoe at December 24, 2013 10:19 AM (ULH4o)
I don't doubt they tried. But unless it's forced conversions, to me, it'd be a nothing burger.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 24, 2013 10:19 AM (d0Dmj)
Posted by: artemis at December 24, 2013 10:19 AM (2XMD1)
Posted by: Lauren at December 24, 2013 10:19 AM (hFL/3)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:20 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: oeJay44incday at December 24, 2013 10:20 AM (QxSug)
Posted by: Inspector Cussword at December 24, 2013 10:21 AM (zZ+Bs)
Posted by: Dang at December 24, 2013 10:21 AM (MNq6o)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:21 AM (PYAXX)
Well played, GLAAD!
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 01:53 PM (8ZskC)
You and me both. I really didn't care what the fuck they did. It didn't affect me, but lately I see these mofos weaving a noose for all who aren't like them. That shit shifts my opinion pretty damn fast.
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at December 24, 2013 10:21 AM (FMbng)
Posted by: Rick67 at December 24, 2013 10:22 AM (UaDUn)
Posted by: Baldy at December 24, 2013 10:23 AM (2bql3)
Well played, GLAAD!
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 24, 2013 01:53 PM (8ZskC)
You and me both. I really didn't care what the fuck they did. It didn't affect me, but lately I see these mofos weaving a noose for all who aren't like them. That shit shifts my opinion pretty damn fast.
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division
Same here. Used to have a live and let live mentality. Now they've shown how they want things. Stalinist.
Posted by: Dang at December 24, 2013 10:24 AM (MNq6o)
The man is 84 and no doubt thinking "I'm too old for all this culture war shit"
Posted by: kbdabear at December 24, 2013 10:24 AM (aTXUx)
Posted by: Margarita DeVille at December 24, 2013 10:24 AM (dfYL9)
Posted by: BlueFalcon in Boston at December 24, 2013 10:24 AM (KCvsd)
Because they can't muster a cogent argument against them.
People who are genuinely confident in the intellectual merits of their case, and their ability to defend it, are serenely untroubled when someone chooses to argue the contrary.
Posted by: torquewrench at December 24, 2013 10:25 AM (gqT4g)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 10:25 AM (VXOfH)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:25 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: AwkwardFirstTimer at December 24, 2013 10:26 AM (JQhul)
Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at December 24, 2013 10:26 AM (6Nqkf)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 10:26 AM (+cx5n)
Posted by: BlueFalcon in Boston at December 24, 2013 10:27 AM (KCvsd)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at December 24, 2013 10:27 AM (61DTL)
Ace, thanks for letting me come to your blog and post my POV. Thanks even more for your clear, cogent, and compelling writing.
Co-bloggers, thanks for all you do to help Ace keep this site going.
Fellow babies, thanks for all the laughs that help keep me the tiny bit sane that I can still claim.
Merry Christmas to all!
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:27 AM (kXoT0)
Posted by: Regular Moron
Do you have their phone number?
Asking for a friend.......
Posted by: rickb223 at December 24, 2013 10:27 AM (d0Dmj)
It's about the establishment of a one party totalitarian communist state
Posted by: kbdabear at December 24, 2013 10:27 AM (aTXUx)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:27 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at December 24, 2013 10:29 AM (x1aCh)
Posted by: BlueFalcon in Boston at December 24, 2013 10:29 AM (KCvsd)
Posted by: JackStraw at December 24, 2013 10:30 AM (g1DWB)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:30 AM (XIxXP)
The word homophobia needs to be retired. I've never known anyone with an irrational fear of gay people. It is one of the many ways used to shut down conversation. I'm allowed to disagreed with your politics and tactics.
It would be more apt to ask why are Sully et al so "Christo-phobic". Their attempt to stifle debate does smell of fear as Ace pointed out.
Posted by: duke at December 24, 2013 10:30 AM (enhDu)
On the other hand, you've got the ones saying that gays are exactly the same as everyone else, and if you don't agree than society must destroy YOU.
It's two sides of the same coin: control freaks imposing their will on others. They always have an excuse for how it's for some "greater good".
Posted by: Optimizer
This is the problem with the debate, the people that push back against the Velvet Mafia are usually the ones like Cuccinelli that try to reintroduce sodomy laws.
There is a large swath of the population that is socially conservative, but they're being squeezed between popular culture calling them bigots and religious extremists using Old Testament, firebrand language that makes them uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, I'm in control of my morality and popular culture and/or GLADD is not going to change my values. The way to win this battle is through the Church and with our own families. We're never going to have after-school specials on networks about how awful homosexuality is.
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 10:30 AM (pS6g3)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:31 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: BobinNH at December 24, 2013 10:32 AM (5aory)
I am not a fundamentalist Christian, I am an Evangelistic Holiness Christian. There are some pretty large differences, especially in how sin is done. John Wesley taught us that sin is a transgression of a known law of God. So you cannot sin through ignorance; it has to be on purpose.
Since the Bible simply assumes that God is and that he Loves us all, let's assume the same. Over the years as I have studied the Bible, I have discovered that from the Garden of Eden to Jesus' death on the cross, what God wants most from us, after salvation, is obedience. The total purpose of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is that we could be empowered to live before God in holiness, without sin. So, obedience is God's thing. If we fall short of obedience, we fail and need to make it right with Him - Repentance. Since the first requirement of pleasing God is to accept his Son as our Lord and Savior, anyone who fails there fails in obedience and is subject to judgment (what a nasty word, huh, liberals). Does it matter if homosexuality is a sin if the sinner is not in a saving relationship with God. Hardly. So, a little white lie versus a rape/murder to me is a big, really big, thing. But to God who seeks obedience in all we are and do, they are both failures that separate the person who commits them from God. Fortunately, God has given us His Spirit so that we can know what is right and the power to do what is right. This is pleasing to God, our Father
Posted by: TimothyJ at December 24, 2013 10:32 AM (ep2io)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 10:32 AM (Qev5V)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:32 AM (XIxXP)
Well, he dared you to find it. You found it. What happens when you win the dare?
Posted by: Muad'dib at December 24, 2013 10:33 AM (PlTXA)
Posted by: fluffy at December 24, 2013 10:33 AM (Ua6T/)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:33 AM (/FnUH)
90% however are terrific people that basically want to talk about anything but their sexuality. They are open about it but grew up feeling like an outsider on some level and really just want to live their lives with less, not more, drama. They would much rather talk about Baseball or the Weather than identity politics.
Posted by: Kaisersoze at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (ak/ho)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (1xUj/)
It's about the establishment of a one party totalitarian communist state
Posted by: kbdabear at December 24, 2013 02:27 PM (aTXUx)
Yes, like NOW and other "victim" groups they're just a front organization for the totalitarians.
NOW didnt say a single word about Bashirs fecal tantrum.
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (AWmfW)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (qFpRI)
Later. Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney
They are narcissistic. They are only interested in people who are like them - have the same bodies, same sex organs, think the same way, etc.
Posted by: Dang at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (MNq6o)
The "str8 allies" don't like that much, either.
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 10:34 AM (xW2bf)
"I have never believed this nonsense that a gay person should become "straight." I doubt it's possible. I think a gay person can pose as straight, as they have long done throughout history. But to become straight? No.
The concept of sexuality is a fairly recent invention and current studies are likely to be skewed due to politics.
This is far too big a request to make of someone, no matter what the claimed good that will come from it. Christians may believe that gays will be happier as straights, or at least will be more in communion with God. I doubt that, but even if that were true, one can't help but note this is a much heavier burden than the average Christian is asked to heft."
Is it? Alcoholics don't stop being alcoholics but we try to treat them anyway even though they were born that way.
Posted by: Ben(the original) at December 24, 2013 10:35 AM (2tymg)
I think Christians should turn the PC bullets right back at the GLAAD crowd with "you're bigots against Christians" everytime they try and take out a Christian like Robertson.
We GREATLY outnumber the gayz.
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 10:35 AM (pS6g3)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:36 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Y-not waiting for the Truce at December 24, 2013 10:37 AM (zDsvJ)
Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Rounding Error Extraordinaire at December 24, 2013 10:37 AM (61DTL)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 10:37 AM (bb5+k)
I think they wax and bleach so it may not be THAT disgusting.
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 02:20 PM (XIxXP)
Maybe not that hairy, but the shit? It LIVES there! And it doesn't matter how much you scrub, the stain of it will NEVER really wash off.
Posted by: Sharkman at December 24, 2013 10:38 AM (TM1p8)
Socialism is intolerance. The more the socialism, the more the intolerance.
Posted by: JohnJ at December 24, 2013 10:38 AM (TF/YA)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:38 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Chris at December 24, 2013 10:39 AM (crkWb)
Posted by: The GOP at December 24, 2013 10:40 AM (Qt/d2)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:40 AM (XIxXP)
so I don't buy the suggestion that gays feel bad about ostracism because they "know" in their hearts that the Holy Spirit condemns it.
We don't need to resort to the supernatural to explain it. the same anger Christians feel at the injustice of being marginalized, trivialized, and denormalized is the same anger gays feel.
Posted by: ace
Here's the thing. Why do they care what a religion they don't subscribe to says about them?
I'm sure Muslims would denounce me for eating delicious pork. I don't give a damn.
Why do homosexuals want to change Christianity when many don't believe in it anyway.
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 10:40 AM (pS6g3)
Posted by: Madamex at December 24, 2013 10:41 AM (vaWdD)
I'm straight, and people routinely deride me as weird, disordered, and unfit for society. Every fucking day. My family, my cow-orkers, television commercials, and even Morons of the Horde.
But the "everything must be about my gayness" folks have used up all my empathy with the nonstop bullying.
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 10:41 AM (xW2bf)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:41 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 24, 2013 10:42 AM (Qt/d2)
Posted by: Irrational Plato at December 24, 2013 10:42 AM (R6JT1)
Posted by: Mandy P., lurking lurker who lurks at December 24, 2013 10:42 AM (qFpRI)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 10:43 AM (bb5+k)
>>> Mercy is strength, and goodwill is strength, and restraint is strength.
...
>>> And, yes, as silly as this disordered, perverted Christian thought may be, loving your enemy is strength.
I would have agreed with these sentiments ten or so years ago. Unfortunately, the left has taught me during that time they share many traits with Islamists--one of them being that mercy and restraint from one's enemies are signs of weakness that must be exploited.
Anyway, fuck you, GLAAD, you fascist fucks.
Posted by: Sandra Fluke's solid gold diaphragm at December 24, 2013 10:43 AM (e4elg)
Allen G.,
My apologies, I read your statement with my anti-church of Christ blinders on (i.e. stated many times to me by coC people as "whosoever keeps one part of the Law is indebted to all of it").
I think your statement does properly summarizes James 2:10.
Posted by: Ken at December 24, 2013 10:43 AM (SgBGg)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:43 AM (XIxXP)
I have never believed this nonsense that a gay person should become "straight." I doubt it's possible. I think a gay person can pose as straight, as they have long done throughout history. But to become straight? No.
<<
I have a strong "feeling" (for that's what the left trades in, feelings) that, not in all cases, mind you, but that in many cases of homosexuality, the psychological basis for such attraction or compulsion for the same sex is laid (no pun intended) in early- or pre-adolescence by the manipulation and molestation of an adult so inclined, whether it be parent, uncle, preacher, teacher or older cousin or neighbor. Just my 2 cents. Now Glaad can persecute me.
Posted by: Sphynx at December 24, 2013 10:44 AM (OZmbA)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:45 AM (kXoT0)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:45 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: BoomBoom at December 24, 2013 10:45 AM (a4EL/)
Posted by: Socrateae at December 24, 2013 10:45 AM (1jViy)
Posted by: JackStraw at December 24, 2013 10:45 AM (g1DWB)
Posted by: perturbed at December 24, 2013 10:46 AM (TXq4O)
Ummmmm....athiest here. I've always had the same question. If, by definition God doesn't exist, why is it supposed to bother me? Posted by: Bill H at December 24, 2013 10:46 AM (3sZO1)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 02:40 PM (XIxXP)
This exactly. The radical fringe of a fringe of the population isn't enough to push all this. The "gay mafia" is really the institutional left using the issue as a battering ram to tear down Christianity and any remaining support for the nuclear family. And of course the State fills the vacuum left by the family.
Posted by: kartoffel at December 24, 2013 10:46 AM (EcHOO)
"Andy: I believe that God became man and dwelt amongst us and died for us to show us that it was possible for humans to be perfectly obedient, even unto death, to God, and to allow God's very blood to wash our sin away so that we may join truly with God when we die ourselves.
You, Ms. Milky Glutes, believe only in forcing others to believe that your lifestyle is perfectly normal and should be celebrated as such, upon pain of losing livelihood, honor, family and reputation. That, and the questionable 'glories' that are Ghey Sex.
Dude, you're the one who has no rational basis for his entire life's 'work.'
Fuck you, and Merry Christmas."
Posted by: Sharkman at December 24, 2013 10:46 AM (TM1p8)
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at December 24, 2013 10:46 AM (5ikDv)
Posted by: Ken at December 24, 2013 02:07 PM (SgBGg)
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10
It really chaps my hide when folks claim to know what the Bible says and totally mess it up.
Posted by: least in CA at December 24, 2013 10:46 AM (xEBDy)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:47 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 10:47 AM (xW2bf)
Posted by: bob newhart at December 24, 2013 10:47 AM (WCnJW)
Posted by: eman at December 24, 2013 10:47 AM (EWsrI)
Posted by: rrpjr at December 24, 2013 10:47 AM (s/yC1)
Posted by: Clutch Cargo at December 24, 2013 10:47 AM (pgQxn)
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at December 24, 2013 10:48 AM (HVff2)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 10:49 AM (avC+E)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:49 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 10:49 AM (/FnUH)
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at December 24, 2013 10:49 AM (5ikDv)
Posted by: D-Lamp
This is my belief as well, but I certainly don't think conservatives should push this view in the political arena. It's a mental illness.
When you hear about people having sex changes because they belive they're a different gender, are we really so PC that we can't say that obviously that person is seriously mentally disturbed?
If you want to say a mental illness is "born that way" fine, but we do know MANY homosexuals actively make that choice, De Blasio's former lesbian wife is a good example. And ask someone who works in a prison, prisoners that were straight their whole lives become homosexuals in prison, then go back into society and become straight again.
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 10:50 AM (pS6g3)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 10:50 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: Rocky at December 24, 2013 10:50 AM (nSjQC)
Posted by: secretary of state at December 24, 2013 10:51 AM (U1arf)
Posted by: All Hail Eris at December 24, 2013 10:51 AM (QBm1P)
Posted by: CAC at December 24, 2013 10:51 AM (6d/TO)
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 24, 2013 10:51 AM (Qt/d2)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:52 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: L, elle at December 24, 2013 10:52 AM (0xqKe)
Posted by: Comanche Voter at December 24, 2013 10:52 AM (VAche)
What we want to avoid is both the Christian and Non-Christian knee jerk reaction without careful thought and some sort of process to sort out what is really going on. That is sort of the difference between Phil Robertson and A&E. Most people get that he does not make those statements lightly or rashly.
Posted by: Akelm at December 24, 2013 10:52 AM (VaRrQ)
>>"loving your enemy is strength."
This is why I can't be a Christian. I fail the test. I can't love those who wish to destroy me and my rights. This doesn't conflate to vengeance or an urge to destroy -- merely the will to fight, or to take the fight to them until the scales are righted and balance is restored.
Posted by: rrpjr at December 24, 2013 10:53 AM (s/yC1)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at December 24, 2013 10:53 AM (1xUj/)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:53 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Gay-ish Dude at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (OZmbA)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (avC+E)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (+cx5n)
Posted by: RobM1981 at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (zurJC)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (PYAXX)
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 24, 2013 02:42 PM (Qt/d2)
Well, I like broccoli. and because I like broccoli that means I can't like you? Is that the tail we are chasing. Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton
Means BtW is to be driven out, employment lost, hearing the lamentations of it's wimmens, and salting it's earth.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 24, 2013 10:54 AM (d0Dmj)
Posted by: My Name is Nobody at December 24, 2013 10:55 AM (5Q1ZU)
Posted by: Bill H at December 24, 2013 10:55 AM (3sZO1)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 10:56 AM (avC+E)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 10:56 AM (+cx5n)
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at December 24, 2013 10:56 AM (5ikDv)
So did we. A Lesbian couple, one was a barber and one worked as an office manager. One of them was always popping across the street and asking my late husband to borrow this or that tool or ask his help with this or that project. The neighborhood joke was--keep your lawn mowed and we don't care who you love. My Dad also had a first cousin who was a Lesbian--she was a Captain in the WAVES in WWII and lived with her lover for over sixty years until their deaths last year. I have other gay people in my family and to protect their privacy, I won't give out their details. My point is that all these folks were just normal people and they did more to advance gay rights by just living their lives in quite dignity than any gay activist in assless chaps shrilling ACTING UP.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, it's what you pray for in your Christmas Stocking! at December 24, 2013 10:57 AM (kXoT0)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 10:57 AM (XIxXP)
Posted by: Y-not waiting for the Truce at December 24, 2013 10:57 AM (zDsvJ)
Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at December 24, 2013 10:57 AM (uzmcT)
Posted by: garrett at December 24, 2013 10:58 AM (MAHGB)
"No Creed but the Bible."
But I don't know what the Bible says."
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Well THERE'S yer problem
Posted by: The Intollegentsia at December 24, 2013 10:59 AM (xEBDy)
Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at December 24, 2013 10:59 AM (0LHZx)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:00 AM (avEon)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:00 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (avEon)
Well said sir!
Lost in the kerfuffle is the fact that there are a LOT of sins, and no non-sinners.
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (o3MSL)
Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (XIxXP)
Yup. You freaks who like broccoli can't just let the rest of us live in peace, can you?
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (xW2bf)
I have not read the comments, so this may have been said already.
1) This is a fantastic piece Ace. It needs to be said, and has been far better than I ever could.
2) I want to take specific issue with this part that you quoted:
Again, as Christian doctrine, this is bonkers. There are obvious levels of sinfulness;
No, that is not bonkers. That is the point of Christianity. God's standard is higher than ours and while you can tell a little white lie and be socially good (and certainly better than the rapist) it still makes you a liar and it still makes you a sinner. No one is good enougn not to be one. That is the reason for Christ. That is the reason for his birth and for his saccrifice.
I don't know who Andrew Sullivan is. He may be a solid wonderful person and loving Christian. Perhaps even morso than I am. But he clearly lacks wisdom, and is not someone that I would chose to listen to.
Posted by: SangreTheBold at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (PIf8q)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (JDIKC)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:01 AM (avEon)
Nobody in this thread has told you to. Neither did Kirk Cameron, though I'm not sure why you'd care if he did.
Posted by: kartoffel at December 24, 2013 11:02 AM (EcHOO)
Posted by: Madamex at December 24, 2013 11:02 AM (vaWdD)
Well said. And long overdue.
Posted by: physics geek at December 24, 2013 11:03 AM (llWHs)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:03 AM (avEon)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 24, 2013 11:03 AM (rnV3B)
Posted by: A Toaster at December 24, 2013 11:03 AM (MAHGB)
Posted by: Adjoran at December 24, 2013 11:03 AM (473jB)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:04 AM (avEon)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:04 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: Bill H at December 24, 2013 11:04 AM (3sZO1)
Posted by: A Couch at December 24, 2013 11:04 AM (MAHGB)
*sniff* Not true. *sniff*
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (xW2bf)
Er, is zombie male? Thought not.
I am a native of San Francisco and I can underscore the point that everything zombie has posted about completely inappropriate gay behavior in public places is entirely true.
I'm a longtime supporter of the rights of gays to be treated like everyone else. To include the requirement that whatever everyone else is doing, they should do it behind closed doors and out of the sight of children. Not in the streets frightening the horses.
There's a cult of "transgressiveness" that goes way back in the SF gay community, where "transgressive" unfortunately just means rude and loud and often disgusting.
I know some gays here who lead completely ordinary lives and keep their sex lives private who just don't care for that nonsense. Unfortunately, they too feel the wrath of the GLAAD types, who have adopted the horrid "self-hating" trope which Jews visit upon other Jews with whom they disagree.
Don't approve of men walking the streets in leather chaps with dildos protruding out from their hindquarters? If you're gay and find that distasteful, it must be due to "self-hating".
Posted by: torquewrench at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (gqT4g)
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (5ikDv)
Agreed, but there's not a movement to demonize those who think other actions are sins.
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 03:01 PM (avEon)
That's says quite a lot about the demonizers.
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (o3MSL)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (avC+E)
Which is why the homosexual lobby are such scolds and have no humor: they want to act like nothing more than animals.
Posted by: GWB at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (4zdFI)
Posted by: sensate over compensate at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (R6JT1)
Posted by: garrett at December 24, 2013 11:05 AM (MAHGB)
Yeah. No.
Bigotry isn't any prettier when it's directed at Christians. And, as always, note that GLAAD isn't saying a single damn thing to Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam.
The reason why is as obvious as it is cowardly.
Posted by: alexthechick - Really Universe Really? at December 24, 2013 01:50 PM
===============================
Yeah. I have a lefty friend who bashes Christianity on a regular basis because of [insert war on *** here]. I asked why she didn't have anything to say about a group of people who routinely mutilate a woman's genitalia and drops walls on gay. It was a rhetorical question of course, which is why I accused her of cowardice immediately after. Suffice it to say that I don't expect to remain friends with her for much longer.
Posted by: physics geek at December 24, 2013 11:06 AM (llWHs)
Offensive? You want fucking offensive?? Ok, call me kooky, but there is nothing on this planet that compares to bending a blistering hot chick over a desk and sliding your hands down her narrow waist to that perfectly round smooth chick ass that you can palm like a fucking grapefruit while her boobs being pressed against the flat hard surface creates the side boob from hell. What I find offensive is being lectured to and bullied by bruce the fucking booty bandit because I completely prefer the above scenario to some fucked up romp with some hairy man ass. Sorry dude, but I want my dick ornament to be female.
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at December 24, 2013 11:07 AM (FMbng)
Posted by: toby928© remote from planet Dad at December 24, 2013 11:07 AM (M49Xq)
Posted by: Gran at December 24, 2013 11:07 AM (nPMjI)
Posted by: Janir at December 24, 2013 11:07 AM (pOZma)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:07 AM (avEon)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 24, 2013 11:08 AM (BC6cY)
Posted by: Jinx the Cat at December 24, 2013 11:08 AM (l3vZN)
Posted by: tsrblke, PhD(c) No Really! at December 24, 2013 11:08 AM (GaqMa)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:08 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: Kreplach at December 24, 2013 11:09 AM (Xkr8I)
Posted by: eman at December 24, 2013 11:09 AM (EWsrI)
Posted by: noone, really [/i] [/b] at December 24, 2013 11:09 AM (5ikDv)
Posted by: Fritz at December 24, 2013 11:09 AM (TKFmG)
Sure there are. Go tweet at Wendy Richards fans that you think killing a baby at 34 weeks gestation is wrong, see what happens.
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 11:10 AM (xW2bf)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 11:10 AM (avC+E)
Posted by: Bill H at December 24, 2013 11:10 AM (3sZO1)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:10 AM (avEon)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 24, 2013 11:10 AM (BC6cY)
Posted by: Burn the Witch at December 24, 2013 11:10 AM (Qt/d2)
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads
Newsletter?
Posted by: rickb223 at December 24, 2013 11:11 AM (d0Dmj)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:11 AM (avEon)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (avC+E)
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (pS6g3)
Posted by: Zarathustra at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (MAHGB)
Posted by: Y-not waiting for the Truce at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (zDsvJ)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (Qev5V)
Posted by: Braineaterbob at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (nAse+)
"I have never believed this nonsense that a gay person should become "straight." I doubt it's possible. I think a gay person can pose as straight, as they have long done throughout history. But to become straight? No.
...one can't help but note this is a much heavier burden than the average Christian is asked to heft."
And this is where you've fallen into their trap: turning an action and a set of desires into identity. 'Gayness' is NOT an identity, any more than being a Christian is. It is a set of desires and acting on those desires - nothing more. You can't be 'born gay' any more than you can be 'born homicidal'. Yes, you can have deficiencies and brokenness in the womb that makes that more likely. But you're not born any particular way that you can't overcome in life. (Yes, I'm excluding physical limitations due to handicaps - if you want to argue that 'being gay' is a handicap, by all means feel free.)
And that is no larger a burden than any Christian is asked to bear: to conform themselves to the likeness of Christ. It's not easy for anyone.
Posted by: GWB at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (4zdFI)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:12 AM (avEon)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at December 24, 2013 11:13 AM (1xUj/)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 11:14 AM (+cx5n)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 11:15 AM (avC+E)
Posted by: Mike Hammer at December 24, 2013 11:15 AM (aDwsi)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 03:10 PM (avEon)
The average guy in the street doesn't care if Heather has three mommies, if Julia marries Julia, or if Tom marries Dick, they just wish all of them would do what relatively normal heterosexual people have been doing for centuries in the privacy of their bedrooms, not in the street scaring the horses or the children.
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 24, 2013 11:15 AM (o3MSL)
Posted by: Meghan McCain at December 24, 2013 11:16 AM (MAHGB)
A great essay, Ace. But Sullivan isn't just anti-Christian. If one has a strong stomach, try an intenet seach using "Andrew Sullivan circumcision". It's all about the dick.
Posted by: mrp at December 24, 2013 11:16 AM (HjPtV)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:16 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: Insomniac at December 24, 2013 11:16 AM (UAMVq)
Posted by: Mike Hammer at December 24, 2013 11:17 AM (aDwsi)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:17 AM (avEon)
Pretty deep and extraneous subject for Christmas Eve....
Love each other and let God sort it out.
Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at December 24, 2013 11:17 AM (L2I78)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 11:17 AM (Qev5V)
So, here I am, a Christian woman living in an evolving world and, despite the caricature of inflexibility, I'm trying to grope my way to living in the world as it is and not as I want it to be. And I've learned to be thankful for this discussion. It's reminded me that my compassion (something that I am prodded by my faith to exercise more often than I do) towards others should be greater and my way of speaking of them should be kinder. I am persuadable on the point of gay marriage as a matter of law. (No, I'll never be super jazzed by it. I have a pretty narrow idea of what marriage means and, having raised 5 of my own kids, have a pretty serious idea of what it means to have a father and mother doing the raising.)
But, you had it right, Ace. I can't pretend that God is indifferent on the subject. And to say otherwise would be a betrayal of some fundamental parts of myself. For the record though, I really do believe we're all sinners. And my faith tells me that I'm not any closer to God because of my heterosexuality or any more loved.
Posted by: Beanerschnitzel at December 24, 2013 11:17 AM (8d63Z)
Please, say some more baseless insults to me!
Work in a prison for a couple of years. Skin thickens. Insults roll off like water off a duck's back.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 24, 2013 11:18 AM (d0Dmj)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:19 AM (avEon)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:20 AM (bb5+k)
I am beginning to realize that on this, the Eve of a Holy event, I am discussing aberrant behaviour rather than wishing my Fellow Morons a Joyous Christmas with Good Tidings for All. May you and your families enjoy this season and each other.
God Bless Us All!
Posted by: Hrothgar at December 24, 2013 11:20 AM (o3MSL)
Posted by: Huckleberry Finn at December 24, 2013 11:20 AM (At7ct)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 11:21 AM (avC+E)
"How the fuck is "being gay" destructive to the civilization?"
***
Biology: Procreation speaks for itself. Anthropology: 10,000 years of human civilization and not one longstanding culture with widespread "normalized" homosexuality." Sociology: We erode the traditional family structure in favor of sperm donors and egg carriers and further enshrine the idea of humans as animals/meat, not exceptional beings with souls/moral distinction.
I'm an Objectivist atheist and I believe society-wide atheism is destructive to the civilization. As Steyn put it, it disconnects you from the past and future and enshrines an Eternal Present - just kick the can of your problems down the road until you're dead and who cares after that. Not for all, but for many. Witness Russia.
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 24, 2013 11:21 AM (il1Hy)
I've seen the Left argue this both ways.
Which ever fits their purpose at the moment.
Posted by: T Tedesco at December 24, 2013 11:22 AM (e8kgV)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:22 AM (avEon)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 11:22 AM (+cx5n)
Posted by: The Political Hat at December 24, 2013 11:22 AM (/YkzI)
Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at December 24, 2013 11:23 AM (jucos)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 11:23 AM (avEon)
Posted by: Insomniac at December 24, 2013 11:24 AM (UAMVq)
Actually there is a lot of work that being gay is an epigenic factor. Its clearly not a gene but the research was essentially that epigenic factors (basically the chemical process for how your body handles DNA and RNA) are different in gay people. So arousal, attraction, etc would be the same in your body but the target of the attraction would be different than most people.
I haven't gone through all the literature obviously but the one paper I read (I believe Vanderbuilt) made a lot of sense and the study was done well.
Posted by: Kaisersoze at December 24, 2013 11:24 AM (ak/ho)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:25 AM (bb5+k)
"
Let's ditch this nonsense and celebrate the birthday of our Savior.
Nood, please, sir."
THAT sir is the spirit! * fistbump*
Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at December 24, 2013 11:25 AM (P1Tw6)
There are genetic and biochemical baselines which govern sexual orientation.
(Per "biochemical", consider that women born to mothers who took DES are, with very high statistical significance, likely to be bisexual in adult life. Or consider that after decades of estrogen-mimicking chemicals in the water supply, you start to get large numbers of Pajama Boy types.)
However, humans are nothing if not malleable, and culture strongly acts in early life to shape behavior in ways both subtle and overt, conscious and unconscious. Some people really do and can end up with an orientation that clashes with what their biology tells them to be.
The classic case about which everyone argues is that of an adult gay person, unhappy with that, who undergoes therapy to become straight again, in accordance with their biological preference. The professional-gay GLAAD types are utterly horrified by this and liken it to Dr. Mengele's work.
But let us posit that the circumstances also allow for cases in which persons who would otherwise have grown up into happy adult gays as a function of their biology will instead become miserable maladjusted straights due to cultural weighting.
Some of those people may also then require interventional therapy to return to being the homosexuals which their baseline biology tells them to be. Are GLAAD going to express equal horror at that? Something tells me the answer is "no".
It's a ratchet. Towards gay? Approved and encouraged. Away from gay? Never permissible. An inhumane regimen to be banned.
Posted by: torquewrench at December 24, 2013 11:27 AM (gqT4g)
The anti-ghey=closeted ghey argument is the lamest trope of the gay lobby. It's based in Freudian theory - which psychologists rejected decades ago root and branch. It's also based on faulty causation/correlation - the stereotypical anti-ghey crusader who gets caught wide-stancing isn't anti-gay because he's closeted, he's anti-gay to gain the social benefits therefrom (political office, etc) and hides his gay behavior because of the stigma. It's a disqualifier from further argument - if you advance that idea, I have nothing more to say to you. And I don't.
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 24, 2013 11:27 AM (il1Hy)
Gays are not infertile and we know they can and do procreate.
Genes that assign sexual preference can be passed on through siblings. These genes do not die out because the group benefits from "gay aunts and uncles".
Posted by: eman at December 24, 2013 03:09 PM (EWsrI)
Not only that, but homosexuality can actually benefit a small group by removing certain males from competition for mates while still keeping them around for hunting/defense. I think that the genetic component, if it exists, is in the mother; they're more sensitive to environmental conditions which alters the pregnancy.
Personally, I think that homosexuality is a behavior with multiple triggers. For men I think that there are a significant number who are pushed that direction by either early trauma or by mental illness. On the other side, a lot of women are hardwired to be at least somewhat open to same sex relationships, since it would help create stronger bonds between women sharing a mate.
Posted by: Colorado Alex at December 24, 2013 11:28 AM (vyobY)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:28 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: Kreplach at December 24, 2013 03:22 PM (Xkr8I)
Zombie is Ace's doppelganger on the West coast. Except without all the hair.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 24, 2013 11:29 AM (QFxY5)
Posted by: Bean Pies! at December 24, 2013 11:29 AM (Qev5V)
Posted by: JackStraw at December 24, 2013 11:30 AM (g1DWB)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:32 AM (bb5+k)
I'd ask the opposite. If being gay was a choice, who would choose it?
------
A gay friend of mine makes that point all the time. He very much wants to be in a long term relationship and asks why anyone thinks he would make a decision to only chose from 1 or 2% of the population to find his significant other.
Posted by: Kaisersoze at December 24, 2013 11:33 AM (ak/ho)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 24, 2013 11:33 AM (vV9V6)
Posted by: mbabbitt at December 24, 2013 11:33 AM (l/74m)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 03:14 PM (+cx5n)
This comment makes your ass look fat.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 24, 2013 11:34 AM (QFxY5)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 24, 2013 11:34 AM (BC6cY)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:34 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 03:32 PM (bb5+k)
Wrong.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 24, 2013 11:36 AM (QFxY5)
Mental illness. I do think that there are a number of men who are gay not because they were born that way, but because being gay allowed them to excuse behaviors that are self-destructive as well as harmful to others and would never be tolerated in straight society.
Posted by: Colorado Alex at December 24, 2013 11:36 AM (vyobY)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 24, 2013 11:36 AM (vV9V6)
Posted by: zombie at December 24, 2013 11:37 AM (+cx5n)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:37 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: dirks strewn at December 24, 2013 11:38 AM (l7oVN)
Bill DeBlasio's wife
Robert Oscar Lopez
-----
I would add the name of Mrs Brad Pitt, Angelina Joile.
Posted by: Kaisersoze at December 24, 2013 11:39 AM (ak/ho)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:39 AM (bb5+k)
Posted by: The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Barky at December 24, 2013 11:40 AM (me6Uc)
Posted by: garrett at December 24, 2013 11:41 AM (MAHGB)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 24, 2013 11:43 AM (BC6cY)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:43 AM (bb5+k)
Promiscuity and drug use seem to be very tolerated in "straight society" these days.
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 11:46 AM (xW2bf)
Uganda passes anti-gay bill providing for life in prison. An earlier draft had death penalty.[Purp]
It's hotlinked there. To all the militant gays out there, compare that to some baker that just doesn't want to make you a wedding cake expressly because of their religious beliefs. There are lots of bakers; find another instead of using the power of government to force someone into complying.
I think that is the message of tolerance that ace speaks of.
But mercy being strength and vengeance being weakness -- I disagree. I think that mercy is used to temper vengeance, just as you temper hardened steel to make it more flexible.
An endless cycle of vengeance is bad; see Hatfields vs. McCoys. But turning the other cheek to 9/11 is not something desirable either. Not if you want to survive as a country.
I too thank ace for all his thought provoking stuff and allowing me to speak here.
Posted by: GnuBreed at December 24, 2013 11:49 AM (wNF3N)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 03:25 PM (bb5+k)
That's liberals. Unfortunately, people who fall for identity politics skew liberal because that's how liberals appeal to people. You could say the same thing about homosexuals that you could say about any other identity group that has predominantly fallen for liberals' appeal to entitlement and victimhood. There are a number of patriotic gays, blacks, etc. who support limited government, spending restraint, and freedom for everyone.
When we allow the left to claim an identity group, the left wins another victim.
Posted by: JohnJ at December 24, 2013 11:52 AM (TF/YA)
Promiscuity and drug use seem to be very tolerated in "straight society" these days.
Posted by: Weird Aunt HeatherRadish at December 24, 2013 03:46 PM (xW2bf)
True, but I'd argue that it's still not at the same level. Furthermore, a lot of that tolerance is driven by the media's encouragement of that lifestyle as normal and acceptable.
Posted by: Colorado Alex at December 24, 2013 11:52 AM (vyobY)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 24, 2013 11:53 AM (rnV3B)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 11:54 AM (bb5+k)
But don't beat me over the head and tell me that Christ is fine with how we are born. He's sure as heck not okay with how I am.
Posted by: Beanerschnitzel at December 24, 2013 11:54 AM (8d63Z)
And I always have the same thought; if I'm pondering my entertainment choices for the evening, and find out I can listen to a men's chorus, why the hell would I care if they are or are not gay? I mean, do people discuss this?
"Hey , let's go see this men's chorus! I hear they're really good!"
"Well, are they gay? I'm only going if they're gay! Get back to me, would you?"
Really, why do I need to know? I suspect because it's supposed to nudge me into being all 'inclusive' and going to see some guys sing Sondheim, where I might usually give that a miss. No guitar solos, for one reason.
I'm thinking that, once again, we've 'niced' ourselves into the kind of box that results in, oh, say, electing some incompetent boob and being expected to not criticize said boob because it's racist 'n shizzle.
Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at December 24, 2013 11:56 AM (DLu2s)
Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 24, 2013 11:56 AM (4a4Vt)
Posted by: TheDean'sOffice at December 24, 2013 11:56 AM (+w1hQ)
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 24, 2013 11:58 AM (il1Hy)
Posted by: puddleglum at December 24, 2013 11:59 AM (57nZA)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at December 24, 2013 11:59 AM (6ahup)
This assumes, incorrectly, that each and every person who engages in a homosexual act is absolutely, provably "born that way". As if "sexual orientation" were akin race or gender.
Its not. Perhaps the truly "flamboyant" gays are born as such, but not the lipstick lesbos, those affected by sexual assault, the "freaky", the drunk/experimenting, etc.
Oh, and if you seek legal protections for that broad category of "sexual orientation", then good old Ricky Santorum's "man on dog" example ain't that far off, is it?
Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 24, 2013 12:00 PM (4a4Vt)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:02 PM (bb5+k)
Now, I know that straights can do some pretty darned hedonistic things as well, but here in SF, none of that holds a candle to what goes on in public places. Do a google search on the Dore St. festival, for instance. Not for the squeamish.
I know all gradations of gays, from the closeted to the flamers, from diesel dykes to lipstick lesbians. They are feeling their political power lately, and I can't say that I agree with all of the particular manifestations of it. Of every one I know, I don't consider any one of them to be well adjusted people. That may just be my experience, but I am finding it harder to accept their cruelty as a normal thing. It is not. Cruelty is cruelty, regardless who brings it.
Posted by: navybrat at December 24, 2013 12:04 PM (AW7Gr)
--------------------------
You might wanna reconsider that.
I know a man who was married to a woman for 23 years, had two kids, then "went gay" mid-life.
If he was 100% gay that whole time, he sure went that extra mile to fake it.
So, if he decided to "go gay" after 40 years o' the straight and narrow, that should be applauded, but those that CHOOSE to attempt to go straight are somehow a travesty? When "straight" equals reproduction and "gay" forecloses it?
Posted by: Saltydonnie at December 24, 2013 12:04 PM (4a4Vt)
Agreed. Let's start with the true meaning of Christmas...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElSJs-5N3js
Posted by: aggelion at December 24, 2013 12:04 PM (s8V4u)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 24, 2013 12:04 PM (BC6cY)
"Promiscuity and drug use seem to be very tolerated in "straight society" these days."
Yeah, sadly. But I'm a kind of "broken windows" guy when it comes to society. Don't tolerate the little stuff and the big stuff might be shunned as well. Let the little stuff slide and, well...
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 24, 2013 12:04 PM (zfY+H)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at December 24, 2013 12:05 PM (6ahup)
Posted by: Frumious Bandersnatch at December 24, 2013 12:05 PM (m46LO)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:06 PM (bb5+k)
Posted by: PabloD at December 24, 2013 12:07 PM (AX7G+)
http://preview.tinyurl.com/lnqrg3wPosted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:09 PM (bb5+k)
This is one of the stupidest lies homosexuals and their advocate tell themselves. It might mean something is wrong but there's no rational basis other than "every Christian ever portrayed on TV since 1990" to remotely presume that almost always means they're secretly gay. So pathetic.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 24, 2013 12:09 PM (zfY+H)
Starting with colleges and universities, it's time to bring more diversity to theater programs, in term so non-gays.
Title IX states that: No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at December 24, 2013 12:12 PM (e8kgV)
Ace, Abraham Lincoln made pretty much the same point in 1859 at Cooper Union (although obviously with respect to slavery, not homosexuality):
The question recurs, what will satisfy them? Simply this: We must not only let them alone, but we must somehow, convince them that we do let them alone. This, we know by experience, is no easy task. We have been so trying to convince them from the very beginning of our organization, but with no success. In all our platforms and speeches we have constantly protested our purpose to let them alone; but this has had no tendency to convince them. Alike unavailing to convince them, is the fact that they have never detected a man of us in any attempt to disturb them.
These natural, and apparently adequate means all failing, what will convince them? This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly - done in acts as well as in words. Silence will not be tolerated - we must place ourselves avowedly with them. Senator Douglas' new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure. We must pull down our Free State constitutions. The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us.
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at December 24, 2013 12:13 PM (HubSo)
D-Lamp:
re atheism I agree and that's why I'm pro-religion, unlike the vast majority of Objectivists in the Ayn Rand tradition.
Rand's view of religion was obviously colored by her upbringing. I was raised Baptist and never found the Christians around me to be the St. Augustine/Torquemada stereotypes found in her writing. Only theocrats are incompatible with Objectivism, and what many atheists call "church and state" issues are laughably short of that (school prayer, ten commandments in public buildings, etc).
The only genuine issue I've had in that respect was with requiring Creationism in curricula and on that score I oppose teaching pre-college students either evolution or biology - had a good exchange with Kevin Williamson on that some time back.
Atheists and Libertarians in general should open their eyes and ears and ditch the 1960's straw-man view of religion they've been sold. Their enemies are in the statehouse, not in church.
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 24, 2013 12:14 PM (il1Hy)
Posted by: UGAdawg at December 24, 2013 12:14 PM (e/9tl)
Yes. It's akin to equally big lie that heterosexuals - in just being aware of what homosexuals do, reporting it honestly and being naturally repulsed by it - "have a strangely high interest in what we do!" The implication being obvious: if you know enough about homosexual sodomy to speak honestly on it, you must be one, too. I never understood how they can play that card and not see it's a form of guilt by association...association with THEM.
Posted by: aggelion at December 24, 2013 12:16 PM (s8V4u)
Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 24, 2013 12:17 PM (4/o9U)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:20 PM (bb5+k)
Posted by: wooga at December 24, 2013 12:22 PM (f+0kK)
"Christianity demands that gays renounce a core part of their selves in order to join polite society."
Why should one's sexual orientation be a subject for discussion in "polite society" ?
Christians aren't the sole arbiters of polite society. We've all (Christians and otherwise) made clear here that we accept the company of non-annoying-activist gay people.
Don't confuse renunciation with "don't bring it up in every damned conversation." I understand what you're saying as far as gays feeling like they can't "be themselves" but we certainly shouldn't demand "that Christians renounce a core part of themselves" to join polite society because gays don't feel fully "accepted."
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 24, 2013 12:25 PM (il1Hy)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:25 PM (bb5+k)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 04:06 PM (bb5+k)
There's an interesting correlation of serial murderers with sexual fetishization of all kinds, including heterosexual promiscuity. There's clearly some kind of relationship with a lack of sexual self-control with an absence of self-control in general.
I don't think serial murderers are "homosexual" per se; they seem obsessed with sexualizing everything.
Posted by: JohnJ at December 24, 2013 12:27 PM (TF/YA)
The only sex permitted is that within wedlock.
Straight and narrow.
I know, it's difficult.
Before Christ there was not "gay sex" and "straight sex". It was all just "sex".
Posted by: navybrat at December 24, 2013 12:27 PM (AW7Gr)
Posted by: UGAdawg at December 24, 2013 12:28 PM (e/9tl)
An old pastor in Ohio defined the homosexual movement's overarching plan as a long term three-step process.
1. Acceptance ("live and let live")
2. Advocacy (willing or not, by force of law if necessary)
3. Annihilation of all remaining opposition
Steps 1 has long been achieved. Step 2 is nearly complete, including forced cake-baking under threat of fine and/or imprisonment. Step 3 has already begun.
Sodom and Gomorrah, next exit.
Posted by: aggelion at December 24, 2013 12:33 PM (s8V4u)
GLAAD is the most intolerant organization of hate in the US.
And that's all I got to say about that.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 24, 2013 12:33 PM (MaP11)
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 24, 2013 12:34 PM (BC6cY)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:34 PM (bb5+k)
Draw your own conclusions.
Posted by: JohnJ at December 24, 2013 12:37 PM (TF/YA)
Time to start boycotting anything faggot. Give them a taste of their own medicine.
Posted by: Jukin at December 24, 2013 12:39 PM (WGm5T)
DLamp
I'm partway with you there. "You don't know because you haven't tried it" is a common rationalization for abnormal behavior (in the literal sense not necessarily "dysfunctional"). I told my parents that with respect to smoking pot, etc... We've all heard gay friends and acquaintances use the "don't knock it til you try it" line in all sincerity. It's a means of validating your aberrant behavior - telling yourself you're in on a special secret the others are just too ignorant to understand unless they "raise their awareness" by taking a bite of the apple.
While I don't extrapolate that to legalized forced participation, if that's where you're going, I do think that desire for validation is used to justify predatory sexual behavior ala the Lopez link at AT, which behavior often crosses the legal line.
I will also put cash money down that within 10 years you'll see some of these same "sexual freedom fighters" pushing to reduce age-of-consent. I've already heard recognized social scientists on the subject predicting that this, along with polygamy, will be the next social pressure point for the GLAAD lobby. For example, check out Milt Rosenberg's podcast with David Gelertner on Richochet.
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 24, 2013 12:44 PM (il1Hy)
Posted by: Frank Underwood (D-SC) at December 24, 2013 12:45 PM (OpaBw)
Posted by: fb at December 24, 2013 12:51 PM (JVEmw)
Posted by: D-Lamp at December 24, 2013 12:55 PM (bb5+k)
Posted by: shredded chi, the young curmudgeon at December 24, 2013 12:55 PM (D0Qc2)
Posted by: aggelion at December 24, 2013 12:58 PM (s8V4u)
Posted by: blaster at December 24, 2013 01:09 PM (4+AaH)
I haven't gone through all the literature obviously but the one paper I read (I believe Vanderbuilt) made a lot of sense and the study was done well.
Posted by: Kaisersoze
I'm ALWAYS hearing that science is right on the cusp of settling that gays are "born that way" yet we never seem to get there.
Amazing all the other things we have discovered about human biology except for that. If anyone questions it, they're obviously stupid because we all know its there somewhere, we just haven't found it yet. See how stupid this gets?
There are many established cases of identical twins having different sexuality despite the same DNA. We have established cases of people choosing different sexual orientations. But if somebody EVER questions whether it's really genetic, instant homophobe label. I just get sick of being bullied into junk science.
But if the scientific community ever does prove beyond a shadow of a doubt it is genetic and can be tested, watch the gays do a 180 on abortion.
If it is determined to be genetic, it's not going to change my views. Just like someone born with more testosterone doesn't get a free pass to cheat on their wife.
Posted by: Uniden at December 24, 2013 01:11 PM (pS6g3)
Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 24, 2013 01:14 PM (u82oZ)
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at December 24, 2013 01:21 PM (a3/N/)
Posted by: Gmac-Pondering the coming implosion, and hoping its 404care at December 24, 2013 01:22 PM (IanLz)
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at December 24, 2013 01:48 PM (BDH94)
Posted by: Colonel Pooteh at December 24, 2013 01:50 PM (nY6d7)
Posted by: whoever at December 24, 2013 02:03 PM (zu9Ee)
As for Kirk Cameron's opinion hurting his career... um, wha? Kirk was before that and after that statement, BIG in Christian circles; he's starring in Christian movies (he's shooting one right now), he has his own Christian tv show (with Ray Comfort), and he guest hosts on Christian tv's biggest show "Praise the Lord". Nothing changed for him.
Posted by: Aslan's Girl at December 24, 2013 02:31 PM (KL49F)
The Media must be destroyed. Totally.
Posted by: Null at December 24, 2013 02:35 PM (xjpRj)
Just wait till these cockholsters show up to your church, and demand to be married therein.
And some judge will hold that you'll have to do it, with a smile.
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at December 24, 2013 02:57 PM (BDH94)
Posted by: Mortal Combat at December 24, 2013 02:57 PM (mTuTB)
Thus: it does not matter whether the man with the truth "wins" or "loses." The reason that the truth-holder should not care about shouting from the rooftops is that it doesn't matter whether the truth is uttered or not uttered: it remains as true in silence as it does in cacophony, and the arguments we might have about the truth do not in any way alter it.
The world is not an argument.
Posted by: Fabio Escobar at December 24, 2013 03:09 PM (6Yqu8)
Posted by: Cuhhhsin at December 24, 2013 03:37 PM (YCPmN)
When we were the overwhelming majority, we chose to be tolerant and so now we are a weak minority. The newly ascendant progressives have learned from our fall, after all they engineered it, and they will not make the same mistake.
The error was in believing that we were so strong that we could afford to be merciful.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-hole at December 24, 2013 04:10 PM (BcCwi)
Posted by: scaulen at December 24, 2013 04:30 PM (ScfwU)
Posted by: soothsayer at December 24, 2013 02:56 PM (avC+E)
And an anus full of dick. You can take that to the bank.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 24, 2013 04:57 PM (TKUw7)
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at December 24, 2013 05:07 PM (3vikn)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 05:28 PM (/FnUH)
Posted by: ace at December 24, 2013 05:35 PM (/FnUH)
Posted by: Gracchus at December 24, 2013 05:44 PM (xeJo9)
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at December 24, 2013 06:00 PM (3vikn)
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at December 24, 2013 06:10 PM (3vikn)
Posted by: Malcolm Tent at December 24, 2013 06:11 PM (3vikn)
Posted by: JEA at December 24, 2013 06:16 PM (hpPAv)
Posted by: Iblis at December 24, 2013 07:14 PM (NVFTu)
Posted by: Iblis at December 24, 2013 07:19 PM (NVFTu)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 24, 2013 07:29 PM (avEon)
The more I hear certain support of gays (not GLAAD) the more I have to lean towards that conclusion.
Posted by: Burnt Toast at December 24, 2013 07:51 PM (80R0X)
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at December 24, 2013 08:18 PM (Z2DlB)
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 24, 2013 08:21 PM (zfY+H)
Posted by: Glen at December 24, 2013 09:36 PM (KQZd+)
Just have to chime in Very late to say that Christians are actually 82% of the American population, not one-third.
Otherwise, a very thoughtful and understanding post, Ace, and thank you. There's a lot to be said on all this, but some of us have to go to bed to get up in time to put the turkey in the oven.
At church tonight: gorgeous service with so many favorite Christmas carols. After Communion, as we always do, they doused the electric glims, and the verger walked down the aisle and lit the end person's candle; everyone in the congregation held a lit candle while we sang Silent Night. Christ the Savior is born.
Posted by: Beverly at December 25, 2013 12:27 AM (ze8lw)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 25, 2013 05:38 AM (rnV3B)
Posted by: Socalcon at December 25, 2013 06:35 AM (K6CHr)
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 25, 2013 06:37 AM (Y92Nd)
Posted by: Socalcon at December 25, 2013 06:43 AM (K6CHr)
Posted by: Socalcon at December 25, 2013 06:47 AM (K6CHr)
Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at December 25, 2013 06:50 AM (Y92Nd)
Posted by: Iblis at December 25, 2013 07:36 AM (NVFTu)
Posted by: Bill in TN at December 25, 2013 08:15 AM (gi/0z)
Posted by: Shoey at December 25, 2013 08:50 AM (vA94g)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 25, 2013 09:39 AM (avEon)
Posted by: D-FENS at December 25, 2013 10:23 AM (KsVXV)
Posted by: evergreen at December 25, 2013 01:06 PM (31Vg9)
Posted by: biscuits mahoney at December 25, 2013 04:58 PM (avEon)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 25, 2013 09:09 PM (rnV3B)
Posted by: Running Hobo at December 25, 2013 11:58 PM (l1oyw)
Why would someone actively disagree with someone's lifestyle if they didn't fear that lifestyle in some capacity?
Generally people have a reason they disagree with homosexuality. Usually they say it will ruin heterosexual marriage. Or confuse kids. Or lead to a lack of morals. These are all fears. I mean, there are all sorts of lifestyles people don't like. But you need to fear it to actively work against it. If you thought it was just something gross or juvenile that some people did and it had no impact on the rest of us (like being a Swinger or Furry).
People fear that gays are trying to convert their children. That's fear. People fear that legitimizing gays leads down a slippery slope to bestiality and pedophilia. That's fear. Even if you aren't afraid of any one gay person. You can still be afraid of the "homosexual agenda." Just like people were afraid of communism even though they weren't afraid of any particular communist.
You can't simply say, I don't like gays because of the bible. Because Christians obviously cherry pick hating gays out of the bible and ignore hundreds of other prohibitions and whatnot that are just as verboten as man on man sex is. And you can't simply say I oppose gays because, gross. Because there are lots of gross things people do that no one seems to care about. Did you know there were straight people that drink urine? It's true. But since no one is afraid that urine drinking is going to impact their kids or their husbands or whatever, no one cares.
Posted by: seattle slough at December 26, 2013 11:44 AM (mCz8+)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 27, 2013 07:45 AM (rnV3B)
You'd deny basic legal acceptance of gays because of terms being replaced on legal papers?!?? That's your reason?!?
Legal papers?
Is that really the best you can do? I honestly can't think of a less consequential change than what my status is listed as on a legal document. My kids know I am their father. They call me 'daddy.' They know who their mother is. They call her 'mommy.' Regardless of whether I am 'parent 2' or 'biofather' or whatever term the government calls me, the fact is, I'm whatever I want to be in my house. As you are in yours.
My kids have friends with two dads, or two moms. Or mom and step dad and dad and step mom. Or Mom and Sharon and "Uncle Dave." Or whatever. All families are unique. I'm sure yours is different than mine. (Though mine is about as generic and nuclear as possible with one marriage and two kids both born inside of wedlock). In all cases, those families call each other whatever they want regardless of what the government calls them. My sister in law is dating a guy who helped an ex raise a girl who is not biologically related to him. He has no rights to the girl. In the eyes of the government he's simply a baby sitter. Know what he is to the little girl? He's daddy.
I simply don't believe that you call people 'faggots' over something as stupid and inconsequential as what your status is on government forms. That's like getting angry over not being called 'white' and having to go by 'caucasian.'
Get a grip.
Posted by: seattle slough at December 27, 2013 12:25 PM (mCz8+)
Speaking as an actual heterosexual father, I can't imagine how it would matter at all. My kids call me "Daddy" (and probably eventually "Dad") and then later they will call me whatever grandpa name I come up with. That's how it works in the non hypothetical world I live in. The government doesn't actually make those distinctions for you.
Posted by: seattle slough at December 27, 2013 12:30 PM (mCz8+)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 27, 2013 01:03 PM (rnV3B)
And are you really suggesting I don't know what "legal documents" mean? I'm a lawyer.
Stupid, Idiot, Fascist, Dumbass? You do realize that the side that resorts to the ad hominem attack is generally considered the weaker side of the argument, right? You can't actually explain your paltry argument, so you need to insult me?
And I'm not sure the word fascism means what you think it means. I'm for personal freedom. Including giving people the freedom to organize and live their lives as they see fit as long as they aren't hurting anyone. If you want to live a hetero-normative lifestyle, I say go for it. That's what I did. I found a beautiful woman who loves me and we have two beautiful boys together. And this is in spite of the fact that we both have gay friends and we live in a State (Washington) that has full legal recognition of gay marriages and provides protections for sexuality on par with the protections afforded race, creed, and religion elsewhere. We live in quite possibly the gayest place on the planet, yet here we are: married, co-habitating, raising our biological children together.
We even had 'em the old fashioned way. No petri dishes needed!
Our State's full recognition of gay rights and privileges has had ZERO impact on my family. None. I'm not guessing. I know this. You fear that this will have an impact on your family, but as you don't have a family, you are simply supposing. Well, I'm happy to say, your fears are unfounded. If you ever somehow convinced a man to have sex with you and if your sallow womb, somehow bore fruit from that union (as unpleasant as any of that is to imagine), you would know this too.
I live in the gayest place on the earth. And yet, 90 percent of the kids at my kid's school are straight like us. I coach my older son's soccer and basketball teams. Of all the kids on both teams I coach, only one kid has lesbian parents and two of the kids have divorced hetero parents. In either case, the nontraditional families are not confusing to the rest of the kids who come from more traditional families. It's not even accurate to say it's not a big deal. It's no deal at all.
Posted by: seattle slough at December 27, 2013 01:38 PM (mCz8+)
Posted by: fromabroad at December 28, 2013 04:35 AM (rnV3B)
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Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) Ah, F It. at December 24, 2013 09:49 AM (PYAXX)