April 14, 2014

Bundy Standoff Ends?
— Ace

You probably know that we avoided this topic on the site, pretty much. The reason for this is that it seemed big and important and potentially dangerous, but also very fact-specific -- and I didn't want to make a big deal about a major (possibly dangerous) controversy without knowing what the actual facts were.*

I still don't know the facts. I know that Bundy claims an easement (a legal right to use land that runs with the land), but I have no idea what grounds he has for claiming this, so I have no way to say if his claim is strong or weak or even just made-up.

My sympathies were with the citizens and against the government, but this seemed to be too dangerous a thing to go by pure sympathies and gut-instincts.

Powerline says the standoff has been ended.

ABCNews goes further than that, claiming Bundy has "won" what he called a government "Range War" against cattlemen.

A Nevada cattle rancher appears to have won his week-long battle with the federal government over a controversial cattle roundup that had led to the arrest of several protesters.

Cliven Bundy went head to head with the Bureau of Land Management over the removal of hundreds of his cattle from federal land, where the government said they were grazing illegally.

Bundy claims his herd of roughly 900 cattle have grazed on the land along the riverbed near Bunkerville, 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas, since 1870 and threatened a "range war" against the BLM on the Bundy Ranch website after one of his sons was arrested while protesting the removal of the cattle.

Harry Reid, who we should always remember has grown unaccountably rich as a public servant, is somehow again involved in a strange case involving Nevada land.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said little as federal agents seized and then released cattle last week from the Bundy ranch, but there is little doubt that the highly charged episode was threatening to become a political headache for the Nevada Democrat.

The Bureau of Land Management is headed by former longtime Reid aide Neil Kornze, who was confirmed by the Senate as BLM director on Tuesday, just as federal authorities descended on the cattle ranch outside Mesquite, Nev.

...

Speculation spiked in recent days over Mr. ReidÂ’s connection to the BLM episode...

Well, Harry Reid is always very connected when it comes to rumors about people not paying their taxes.


* Very often, in making political decisions without really knowing much about the facts about a case, I (as do most people) let my basic ideological and philosophical leanings decide the matter.

In this situation, with guns assembled on both sides, it seemed wrong (to me) to do that.

Posted by: Ace at 12:06 PM | Comments (321)
Post contains 464 words, total size 3 kb.

1 Check The Blaze link in the morning news dump for info as well

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 14, 2014 12:08 PM (DmNpO)

2 Well, Harry Reid is always very connected when it comes to rumors about people not paying their taxes.

Did he ever provide proof he is not a pederast?

Posted by: HR at April 14, 2014 12:08 PM (ZKzrr)

3 I'm turd.

Posted by: Chaos the Other Dark Meat at April 14, 2014 12:09 PM (oDCMR)

4 I'm glad to see citizens standing up against Big Government, and winning.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:10 PM (oMKp3)

5 Ace, any time you see a bunch of snipers from BLM, or ATF, its pretty safe to say the Feds are over stepping themselves.

Posted by: Chaos the Other Dark Meat at April 14, 2014 12:10 PM (oDCMR)

6 Perpetual Freeloader Wins Standoff Against Oppressive Government! Yay!!

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 12:10 PM (+lsX1)

7 "Speculation spiked in recent days over Mr. ReidÂ’s connection to the BLM episode..."

And that,  ladies and gents,  is why it ended.

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:11 PM (MNq6o)

8 Harry Reid is a crooked as a dog's hind leg, he belongs in prison.

Posted by: Killerdog at April 14, 2014 12:11 PM (Q1bAG)

9 4 I'm glad to see citizens standing up against Big Government, and winning. No, the Feds just tone down the warfare and resort to lawfare. I would imagine Mr. Bundy will be visited by any number of Federal agencies for the next two years.

Posted by: Chaos the Other Dark Meat at April 14, 2014 12:11 PM (oDCMR)

10 What I read off of The Blaze is that the Reid family has ties to a Ch-Com investment group on solar farms but a) teh site is over 100 miles from Bundy's leased property, and b) teh project was shelved in 2013. The Blaze also noted that the public land has always been Federal (Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo). This i slinked via BenK's morning News Dump.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at April 14, 2014 12:12 PM (/xvI3)

11 I was confused by some of the particulars as well, but my default position is to err on the side of the individual.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:12 PM (oMKp3)

12 After the turds shut down the open air tourists spots, people are mad as hell.

Posted by: Madamex at April 14, 2014 12:12 PM (gN8mA)

13 The Federal Government has zero credibility.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 12:12 PM (IyKYr)

14 RE: Harry The Pedophile's connection From what I read, the land in question for the Solar power plant was 100 miles away from the Bundy ranch.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 14, 2014 12:13 PM (0LHZx)

15 Harry Reid preys in the people and enriches himself. And this is not over. The IRS, and any and all tools of government will continue to rain down on the Bundys and people like them who stand in the way of runaway government

Posted by: thunderb at April 14, 2014 12:13 PM (zOTsN)

16 In this situation, with guns assembled on both sides, it seemed wrong (to me) to do that.


I don't get the massive show of force from the BLM.  Did Bundy communicate threats to the authorities?  Did he brandish weapons?  WTF was up with the SWAT and snipers at the start of the whole thing?


Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:13 PM (GQ8sn)

17 His son has been snapping up real estate at below market rates all over clark county. Bundys fight has been going on with the blm since 93' It escalted to this level only after reids homeboy became head of thr blm.... coincidence??? I think not!

Posted by: Kreplach at April 14, 2014 12:14 PM (v6YdM)

18 The Federal Government has zero credibility. Hence, the Founder's writing of the Constitution. They were smart enough to know that they couldn't trust themselves.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at April 14, 2014 12:14 PM (onFS4)

19
Harry Reid always makes me think of Senator Pat Geary.

Which is absurd. Nevada should be embarrassed.

Posted by: dan-O at April 14, 2014 12:14 PM (D0bIN)

20

It is just amazing what Harry Reid has had to put up with, the bigotry, they hate him (yessuh!), no other Senator in my lifetime has had to put with this kind of treatment! It's horrible and disgustingly awful.


Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz Christies at April 14, 2014 12:14 PM (xggaJ)

21 They're bringing back Married, With Children?

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:14 PM (HsTG8)

22 I don't get the massive show of force from the BLM. Did Bundy communicate threats to the authorities? Did he brandish weapons? WTF was up with the SWAT and snipers at the start of the whole thing? You remember all that ammo the Feds have been buying up? I guess they didn't want it to go stale.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:15 PM (oMKp3)

23 Yeah, the Harry Reid + Chicom solar farm story seems to not hold water. But that's the kind of plausible lie that was constantly told about Romney. It's close enough to be true that it takes some checking to make sure it's not. Same sort of lie was constantly told about Cheney and Halliburton, too. Sucks having a conscience.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 12:15 PM (ZPrif)

24 Part of me likes that Obama's BLM was told to fuck off. But the other side thinks Bundy is a little insane. He says he doesn't recognize the sovereignty of the US govt. Dude, come on...that's going off into tin foil hat territory.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 14, 2014 12:15 PM (0LHZx)

25 My hashtag keeps changing. WTF? I am using the Epic browser.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at April 14, 2014 12:15 PM (WUm4Q)

26 I don't really know anything about this stuff being a northerner and if not a city boy, at least a suburban boy. All I know is that I don't understand getting armed Federal Agents involved in what is basically a civil dispute. Isn't that what the courts are for?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 14, 2014 12:16 PM (t3UFN)

27 Harry Reid is the Director of NAMBLA -- Nevada-American Management Bureau of Land Assets. What -- does that acronym have another meaning too?

Posted by: zombie at April 14, 2014 12:16 PM (mizYg)

28 Hence, the Founder's writing of the Constitution. They were smart enough to know that they couldn't trust themselves. And then the first Congress created a branch that had lifetime appointments and no oversight.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 12:16 PM (IyKYr)

29 The BLM is saying that a few hundred head of grazing cattle is bad for the land and the massive herds of millions of bison until the late 1800s was good for the land.

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:16 PM (MNq6o)

30 >>I don't get the massive show of force from the BLM. Did Bundy communicate threats to the authorities? Did he brandish weapons? WTF was up with the SWAT and snipers at the start of the whole thing?<<


The feds were having the cattle loaded up and moved by contractors--hired help. The Bundys were preventing the contractors from rounding up cattle. The feds brought in arms to "protect" the contractors.


I imagine they backed off because the 'optics' of the situation weren't looking too good. I'm sure they have a cell all prepared for Mr. Bundy somewhere.

Posted by: Sphynx at April 14, 2014 12:16 PM (OZmbA)

31


Bundy pretty much forced them to do this because he is so racist against Eric Holder!


Posted by: Rev Dr E Buzz Christies at April 14, 2014 12:17 PM (xggaJ)

32 Harry Reid is a disgrace.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 14, 2014 12:17 PM (DrWcr)

33 So, Hawwy "The People's Pederast" Weid has buried his missing victims on Bundy's ranch? Am I at least close?

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:17 PM (HsTG8)

34 Let me sum up the comments in advance Blah blah thug cops Blah blah cops are thugs Blah blah we hate those thug cops

Posted by: Navycopjoe at April 14, 2014 12:17 PM (sCbam)

35
You remember all that ammo the Feds have been buying up? I guess they didn't want it to go stale.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 04:15 PM (oMKp3)



Conspiracy theories aside, what was the justification for the level of hardware on the part of the BLM?  If they wanted to remove his cattle, they didn't need snipers to do it, unless they were deployed to actually shoot his cattle.


Long ago, I would have taken this story with a critical eye.  But now?  There is no more trust.  Those days are gone forever.


Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:17 PM (GQ8sn)

36  Harry Reid is the Director of NAMBLA -- Nevada-American Management Bureau of Land Assets.

What -- does that acronym have another meaning too?

Posted by: zombie at April 14, 2014 04:16 PM (mizYg)

 

heh

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (nTgAI)

37 The FAA declared a no-fly zone over the ranch, up to and including 3000 feet, 3 miles in circumference. Now why do you suppose they did that just for what was essentially a cattle drive?

Posted by: fly at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (LHIwy)

38 And then the first Congress created a branch that had lifetime appointments and no oversight. There is oversight. Congress can impeach and convict Judicial Branch members with removal of office. And the Judicial Branch was created by the Constitution, not Congress.

Posted by: John P. Squibob at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (46t4L)

39 Somebody further up the chain pulled the plug on this....real bad PR. But then again I'm not so sure this Adm. cares.

Posted by: BignJames at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (j7iSn)

40 The oh-so tolerant Lefties are hysterically shrieking on their blogs that the BLM should have shot them all.

Posted by: Citizen X at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (7ObY1)

41 But the other side thinks Bundy is a little insane. He says he doesn't recognize the sovereignty of the US govt. There are about eleven million illegals who share his opinion. Singling him out is hypocritical. Just like them, he's trying to make life better for his family. The difference is he pays some taxes and is a citizen.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (IyKYr)

42 Straight from the Bundy Ranch story comes this unhappy story that I'm sure the Administration had wished was left forgotten. Expect the new HHS Secretary nominee to get questions about this story ...

Federal funds are running out at the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center and officials plan to close the site and euthanize hundreds of the tortoises they've been caring for since the animals were added to the endangered species list in 1990.

"It's the lesser of two evils, but it's still evil," said U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray during a visit to the soon-to-be-shuttered reserve at the southern edge of the Las Vegas Valley last week.

... an endangered species euthanize because of the Sequestration, and who at OMB was in charge of the Administration's response to the Sequestration ?  Sylvia Burwell, the HHS nominee, that's who.  She already has experience with "death panels."

Posted by: Rev. Al Sharpton, former FBI asset known as “CI-7” at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (e8kgV)

43 Perpetual Freeloader Wins Standoff Against Oppressive Government!  Yay!!

Gristle wins the thread at #6... ace, please include this sentence in an update.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (QCo5R)

44 Yeah, the Harry Reid + Chicom solar farm story seems to not hold water. Â…. Sucks having a conscience. Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 04:15 PM (ZPrif) Fortunately, I am not similarly burdened. Anyone know that Harry Reid "allegedly" is a pedophile?

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (yz6yg)

45 Cliven was on Glenn Beck this am, but I Didn't hear all of it because I was working. Beck said that he talked to him yesterday & they were very respectible to rangers etc.

Posted by: Carol at April 14, 2014 12:18 PM (J7sV0)

46 Google Laney Ranch New Mexico....this is an even more fucked up story.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 14, 2014 12:19 PM (0LHZx)

47 I smell Harry Reid all over this. This fucking thieving prick controls Nevada worse than the Clintons controlled Arkansas.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 14, 2014 12:19 PM (CMkNk)

48 America's proves how racist it is yet again. Masters without Tiger gets record TV ratings! http://www.breitbart.com/ Breitbart-Sports/2014/04/14/ Report-Rating-for-Masters-Final -Round-All-Time-Low-for-Non-Easter-Sunday

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 12:19 PM (ZPrif)

49 I think we can rest assured that the outcome would've been different if enough people with guns hadn't shown up, so you're wrong about that.

Yeah it was dangerous and risky but then who made the first step? Who escalated and made threats first? Who was seizing property without due process?

All of what was said could've been said about the ruling government action at Lexington and Concord.

The only difference between then and some other incidents (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian, the Hutarree, et al) is the internet and instant communication to bring attention quickly to the matter. The Feds realized that the whole world WAS watching.

So they backed off. For NOW. But only because of the sunlight and an armed citizenry.


Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Waiting For SMODOT) at April 14, 2014 12:19 PM (JS0vr)

50 Posted by: Citizen X at April 14, 2014 04:18 PM (7ObY1)

Totalitarian Scumbags at Heart. The Story of Contemporary Liberals.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 14, 2014 12:19 PM (QCo5R)

51 I think the Bundy's are lucky this ended without blood.

Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (fwARV)

52 How much does this set back Hawwy Weid's plans to establish Pedotopia in Nevada as a counterweight to Kochtopia? Is it curtains for Hawwy?

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (HsTG8)

53 Grazing your cattle on public property for free is a pretty good business model. Maybe I'll take some self loaders over to Yellowstone and cut some free timber.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (+lsX1)

54 Oh wow. My hash has changed, and for the better. It used to be Old Quiff.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (CMkNk)

55 I understand wanting to stay away from one of these "info wars" pushed stories...but every once in a while the facts are worth pursuing. When the Feds assemble a mini army against the claims of individuals, and connections to one of our favorite Senators are flying about, it might be worth the effort of a top conservative political blog to get facts and even develop some original reporting and following of leads. Or, one could spend more effort on Game of Thrones and kitty videos.

Posted by: MostlyRight at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (IVo46)

56 NCJ - These were *not* cops. They were agents of a bureaucratic agency.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (aDwsi)

57 47 I smell Harry Reid all over this. This fucking thieving prick controls Nevada worse than the Clintons controlled Arkansas.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 14, 2014 04:19 PM (CMkNk)



That's just nasty.  I do NOT want to smell Hairy Reed.  But you're right.

Posted by: Sphynx at April 14, 2014 12:20 PM (OZmbA)

58 I think the minute Harry Reid was mentioned ... a phone call was made to close the whole thing down...

Posted by: janetoo at April 14, 2014 12:21 PM (L3Itw)

59 The only difference between then and some other incidents (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian, the Hutarree, et al) is the internet and instant communication to bring attention quickly to the matter. The Feds realized that the whole world WAS watching.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Waiting For SMODOT)


And Obama wants an internet kill switch in the White House... hmm.

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:21 PM (MNq6o)

60 Oh wow. My hash has changed, and for the better. It used to be Old Quiff. Posted by: J.J. Sefton at April 14, 2014 04:20 PM (CMkNk) At least the old one was accurate. Jus' sayin'

Posted by: Sean Bannion [/i][/b][/s][/u] at April 14, 2014 12:21 PM (yz6yg)

61 I still think Harry Reid and Eric Holder's decision to legalize white slavery was wrong.

Posted by: Separate but Stupid at April 14, 2014 12:21 PM (ZPrif)

62 53 Grazing your cattle on public property for free is a pretty good business model. Maybe I'll take some self loaders over to Yellowstone and cut some free timber. If your family was doing it for the last 120 years I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 12:21 PM (IyKYr)

63

The family had grazed cattle on that land for a long long time.  And then suddenly it's illegal because "federal land"?

 

Sorry.  But this had the stench of politics all over it from the beginning  of this event.

 

I will  say this.  I was thrilled to see people (armed or otherwise) coming to Bundy's defense.  If I'd have been in the area, I would have been there too.  Probably armed.

Posted by: Soona at April 14, 2014 12:22 PM (k+3vt)

64 48. Masters without Tiger gets record TV ratings! That sounds like a bad Vegas act

Posted by: Navycopjoe at April 14, 2014 12:22 PM (sCbam)

65 Good thing the Bundys didn't live in Waco.

Posted by: Roy at April 14, 2014 12:22 PM (VndSC)

66 In the West it's always about water rights. Cliven Bundy has the water rights to that land. Now who do you think might want those for perhaps his own peronal gain? That land is plenty close to Vegas.

Posted by: small town girl in wyoming at April 14, 2014 12:22 PM (dKrTw)

67 I opened for the Peasants in 1992. It was delicious.

Posted by: White Slave at April 14, 2014 12:22 PM (R5UOB)

68 53 Dude, he has paid the State for grazing rights for years. He is not a freeloader.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at April 14, 2014 12:23 PM (ojnk6)

69 Harry Reid has no balls, he hid during this. If he had any balls he would have blamed it on the KOCH BROTHERS

Posted by: The Jackhole at April 14, 2014 12:23 PM (nTgAI)

70 The regulations are as written because of the interests of land-grabbing and corrupt Feds/Pols. The principle is what Bundy has imperfectly communicated over the last few weeks, that those "tortoise protection" laws, and arbitrarily calculated grazing fees that just happened to drive most ranchers out of business, were not valid.

Posted by: Lincolntf at April 14, 2014 12:23 PM (ZshNr)

71 You rooz money again, Helly Leed!

Posted by: Shady ChiCom Business Goons [/i] [/b] at April 14, 2014 12:23 PM (5ikDv)

72 You know who else smells Hawwy Weid all over this? His missing victims of pederasty. Will the MSM switch their attention to this matter soon?

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:23 PM (HsTG8)

73 67 I opened for the Peasants in 1992. It was delicious.

Posted by: White Slave at April 14, 2014 04:22 PM (R5UOB)



You were ALL very tasty.

Posted by: Fine Young Cannibals at April 14, 2014 12:23 PM (OZmbA)

74

Yup, the Feds should have known I was a friend of the Bundy family...

Posted by: Jefferson D'Arcy at April 14, 2014 12:24 PM (wd8GD)

75 In the West it's always about water rights. Cliven Bundy has the water rights to that land. Now who do you think might want those for perhaps his own personal gain?  Posted by: small town girl in wyoming


Apparently solar farms use a lot of water.  Those mirrors and panels don't clean themselves.

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:24 PM (MNq6o)

76 Why do images of Billy Jack pop into my head? Now here comes the theme song . . . . .

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at April 14, 2014 12:25 PM (HubSo)

77 Apparently solar farms use a lot of water. Those mirrors and panels don't clean themselves.


What????


I was assured that this technology was green and sustainable!  Now you're telling me that it requires yet another consumable resource????


Un possible!

Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:25 PM (GQ8sn)

78 #27 ROFLMAO

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:25 PM (HsTG8)

79 In this situation, with guns assembled on both sides, it seemed wrong (to me) to do that. -ace ---------- And, from my viewpoint, it seemed wise as well. But I do think this one might have been worth the time - The Hill To Die On, so to speak. As much as I wanted you to post about this, the situation was just too confusing. Everything was happening so quickly - I tried to stay informed via the Horde, but had a hard time keeping up.

Posted by: shredded chi at April 14, 2014 12:25 PM (8Samq)

80 48. Masters without Tiger gets record TV ratings! That sounds like a bad Vegas act It was setting up to be an awesome finish but Bubba was just too much.

Posted by: eleven at April 14, 2014 12:25 PM (VhqUZ)

81 Here's a great explanation of the lawless BLM and their power over us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAwALTdrMZ8&feature=share

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (TX75W)

82 Yup, the Feds should have known I was a friend of the Bundy family...

Posted by: Jefferson D'Arcy at April 14, 2014 04:24 PM (wd8GD)


They shut it down because you showed up.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (QCo5R)

83 The family had grazed cattle on that land for a long long time. And then suddenly it's illegal because "federal land"?

Family paid grazing fees up until about 20 years ago when he decided it didn't belong to the Federal government anymore. Liberty!!

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (+lsX1)

84 Un possible!
Posted by: EC

Im un possible!

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (MNq6o)

85 Yeah, the Harry Reid + Chicom solar farm story seems to not hold water. Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 04:15 PM (ZPrif) They just backed out last year. The Bundy case has been going on for 20 years. I am sure this pissed off Reid all to heck. He was trying to finagle a deal with the Chinese and he couldn't get a hold of the land in time. I also read the borders were being moved and becoming fluid. What didn't stand up is the tortoise endangered species story. This goes back to 1864 or something, and it is complex and convoluted, but from everything I read, I eventually sided with the Bundy's. The government has tried every backdoor trick in the book to get all the ranchers off the lands. They've basically bankrupted the majority of them. Bundy was kind of like The Last Man Standing. It was his livelihood.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (IXrOn)

86 Wait just a minute. Until I see a free speech zone posted, I think it best everyone keep their trap shut.

Posted by: JR at April 14, 2014 12:26 PM (rHaMl)

87 Posted by: Navycopjoe at April 14, 2014 04:17 PM (sCbam)

When cops act like thugs, talk like thugs, commit thuggish acts, lie like thugs and generally mirror thugs then they get to be called thugs.

I understand you have you're own perceptions about your profession and it's protocols but to us laymen out here, the cops have been acting like thugs more often than they ever should and not just in one jurisdiction but in many different ones.

That indicates a profession wide misconception of what they're purpose is and how they can best accomplish that.

The police these days seem to think of citizens as the enemy. Not just the criminals or the suspects but every citizen as an enemy.

Is it surprising that that has resulted in some very heinous acts on the part of the police and that that attitude is being returned by the citizens being attacked?

You might be wise in either acting in whatever capacity to change this attitude as best you can or find another profession because it seems that the lines get clearer and clearer and the police don't seem to be concerned.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Waiting For SMODOT) at April 14, 2014 12:27 PM (JS0vr)

88 I thought it was odd this site didn't carry the story. Even odder was the reason, apparently. Are we really afraid to talk about standing up against the government?

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at April 14, 2014 12:27 PM (FEgi1)

89 BLM : Bow-legged Lard-assed Minions

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:27 PM (HsTG8)

90 70 The regulations are as written because of the interests of land-grabbing and corrupt Feds/Pols. The principle is what Bundy has imperfectly communicated over the last few weeks, that those "tortoise protection" laws, and arbitrarily calculated grazing fees that just happened to drive most ranchers out of business, were not valid.

Posted by: Lincolntf at April 14, 2014 04:23 PM (ZshNr)

<<



By Jove, I think you've got it.  Bundy was doing his own form of 'protesting' by refusing to pay BLM grazing fees because he saw them as getting in the way of his grazing. They've been wanting him out since 1993.  He made a mistake there, BUT, look at the attention now and the favorable 'optics.' 


The whole tortoise thing is crap. The tortoise has overpopulated it's original preserve and now they're killing them.  And they're saying they need Bundy's range to expand the tortoise's.  Well, them stomping cows just love to kill tortoises apparently, at least according to the feds.

Posted by: Sphynx at April 14, 2014 12:27 PM (OZmbA)

91 24 But the other side thinks Bundy is a little insane. He says he doesn't recognize the sovereignty of the US govt. Dude, come on...that's going off into tin foil hat territory. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo

Bundy is more concerned with state sovereignty than US.   A lot of us are concerned as well.

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:27 PM (TX75W)

92 Dude, he has paid the State for grazing rights for years. He is not a freeloader.

He never paid the state. The state never owned it. He paid the BLM until he decided he didn't want to pay anymore. Freedom!!

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 12:28 PM (+lsX1)

93 Why do images of Billy Jack pop into my head? Now here comes the theme song . . . . .
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon


Nooooooo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh-JoW_8qw0


Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:28 PM (MNq6o)

94 80. It was setting up to be an awesome finish but Bubba was just too much. Now that sounds like a bad episode of Lockup

Posted by: Navycopjoe at April 14, 2014 12:28 PM (sCbam)

95 88 I thought it was odd this site didn't carry the story. Even odder was the reason, apparently. Are we really afraid to talk about standing up against the government? Ace didn't want to talk without knowing all the facts. Given the very real possibility that this could have turned very bad, I won't second-guess his decision.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at April 14, 2014 12:28 PM (IyKYr)

96 Family paid grazing fees up until about 20 years ago when he decided it didn't belong to the Federal government anymore. Liberty!! *** he paid grazing fees up until aout 20 years ago when the federal government gave priority to a tortoise and began limiting his herd size

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 14, 2014 12:28 PM (DmNpO)

97 I read that the BLM has spent $3 million (so far) on this operation, to round up ~500 head of cattle. That works out to $60,000 per head.
 
Sorry about the math thing; I'll go stand in the corner.
 
I also noted that the gubmint has been fining Bundy $200/day/per head of cattle for 'illegal' grazing; for several years now. Thus the gubmint's claim that Bundy owes them millions.
 
We all know that eventually the gears of gubmint will grind Mr. Bundy into exceedingly fine dust. He will leave nothing to his sons; all will be taken in time.

Posted by: GnuBreed at April 14, 2014 12:28 PM (wNF3N)

98 Two stories from this weekend: 1) Government can devolve into tyranny rather quickly. 2) People still want to kill Jews. Somehow I cannot help seeing the relationship between one and two. Call it my personal Passover thought of the day.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:29 PM (oMKp3)

99

I had the same reaction to this story as ace. I'm inclined to sympathize with the little guy against the actions of big government bureaucracies, but I have no idea if this guy has a legitimate case.

I'm glad there was no shooting.

Posted by: Warden at April 14, 2014 12:29 PM (HzhBE)

100

It is not clear to me that Bundy is in the right here - but what is clear is that the Feds are almost certainly in the wrong.

One thing is abundantly clear - it's not about any g-damned turtle.

 

Posted by: West at April 14, 2014 12:29 PM (1Rgee)

101 88 I thought it was odd this site didn't carry the story. Even odder was the reason, apparently. Are we really afraid to talk about standing up against the government? Nope. It's more like, 'keep your yap shut until you know what you are talking about'. I commend Ace for his restraint on this one.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (Fp7JI)

102 Bundy told Beck that the land belongs to Nevada since it became a state.

Posted by: Carol at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (pYXiI)

103 Bitter Clinger @ 87 Well put

Posted by: just passin by at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (A9KzJ)

104 27 Harry Reid is the Director of NAMBLA -- Nevada-American Management Bureau of Land Assets.
What -- does that acronym have another meaning too?Posted by: zombie at April 14, 2014 04:16 PM (mizYg)

*golfclap*

Posted by: LizLem at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (yRwC8)

105 One thing is abundantly clear - it's not about any g-damned turtle.

Posted by: West at April 14, 2014 04:29 PM (1Rgee)



This.


If they gave a shit about the turtles, they wouldn't be euthanizing them.

Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (GQ8sn)

106 I found this whole saga both frightening and heartening. Frightening that it could have exploded into a major fire fight. Heartening because it's pretty apparent that there is a line that a whole bunch of people are willing to take a stand on

Posted by: NativeNH at April 14, 2014 12:30 PM (CxD2R)

107 Well, that was fun!

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:31 PM (HsTG8)

108 If they gave a shit about the turtles, they wouldn't be euthanizing them.

Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:30 PM (GQ8sn)

 

I SHALL AVENGE YOU!!!

Posted by: Yertle at April 14, 2014 12:31 PM (DrWcr)

109 Buffalo Bill killed thousands of American Bison.  And for what?  That right...  it was for the turtles.

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:31 PM (MNq6o)

110
What about the children turtles?

Posted by: PETA at April 14, 2014 12:31 PM (mETGQ)

111 Background from another rancher. Bundy chose to push back when the BLM was pushing other ranchers off the land. http://www.libertyandlead.com/2014/04/13/why-cliven-bundy-is-not-wrong-from-a-fellow-rancher/

Posted by: Hotel1 at April 14, 2014 12:31 PM (C1s0h)

112 Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 04:26 PM (+lsX1) Heard somewhere he has been paying the county which was the original agreement.

Posted by: Grandfather Claus at April 14, 2014 12:32 PM (/djtm)

113 One thing is abundantly clear - it's not about any g-damned turtle. Posted by: West ----------------------------------- Next thing, you'll be saying is 'It wasn't about the video'. You wingnuts are sooooo predictable.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 12:32 PM (aDwsi)

114 I found this whole saga both frightening and heartening. Frightening that it could have exploded into a major fire fight. Heartening because it's pretty apparent that there is a line that a whole bunch of people are willing to take a stand on

Posted by: NativeNH at April 14, 2014 04:30 PM (CxD2R)



Question:



Had there been shots fired and dead bodies on both sides of the line, who would you believe?   The Feds or Bundy?



Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:32 PM (GQ8sn)

115 Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed.

Posted by: AMDG at April 14, 2014 12:32 PM (eFytx)

116 Well, after Ruby Ridge and Waco, I'm always going to assume that the Fed Govt in the right.. right?    Why is a Dem always at the helm when Americans die in great numbers?

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:33 PM (TX75W)

117 Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed. Posted by: AMDG

The turtles got better.  Nothing to see here.  Move along.

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:33 PM (MNq6o)

118 Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed.

Posted by: AMDG at April 14, 2014 04:32 PM (eFytx)



Just one more reason why their word means fuck all.



Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:33 PM (GQ8sn)

119 Had there been shots fired and dead bodies on both sides of the line, who would you believe? The Feds or Bundy? I don't believe the Feds anymore. I know that much.

Posted by: eleven at April 14, 2014 12:33 PM (VhqUZ)

120

Posted by: Navycopjoe at April 14, 2014 04:17 PM (sCbam)


forgot MILITARIZED THUG COPS!!!!!

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (bStrg)

121 Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed. Posted by: AMDG ----------------- In point of fact, it is a dump.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (aDwsi)

122 Now we can look forward to the violent ecoLeft using the same roadblocking, guntoting tactics against loggers, miners and oil drillers. You know, landowners who don't use their land in the politically correct manner. I am not a libertarian primarily because I know too many facts. For instance, most of the land ceded by Mexico has been federal land not state land since the cession of 1848. All the hyperventilating about "the real story" leaves out the repeated defeats suffered by Bundy in federal court. His claims have been rejected. He didn't give a damn, and the court ordered the BLM can remove the cows he lets wander on somebody else's land. The concept of rights took a hit this week. The idea that brutal land arguments get settled at the courthouse took a hit this week. It was stupid, it was wrong, and trying to make it work was dumb. This was Occupy Wall Street with horses. It can be easily repeated all throughout the West where lonely landowners rely on the law and law enforcement to preserve their property from angry people who want the West returned to grassland and forest.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (5xmd7)

123 Neil Kornze, Harry Reid's former top dog was just confirmed in the Senate as the head of the BLM April 8. He was confirmed something like 71 to 28. My Senators said nay as did other surrounding states. Even McCain voted nay.

Posted by: small town girl in wyoming at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (dC60f)

124 You can trust us. It's not like we've ever lied about anything before.

Posted by: BATFE at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (Aif/5)

125 108 If they gave a shit about the turtles, they wouldn't be euthanizing them. Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:30 PM (GQ8sn !!!!???!!!

Posted by: Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello and Michelangelo at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (Fp7JI)

126 >>>53 Grazing your cattle on public property for free is a pretty good business model...<<<
.

Yep, got to save the grass for those public cattle.

Posted by: Javems at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (nTgAI)

127 Hawwy Weid's Nevada - - studiously ignored reports of brazen pedophilia - subsidized cowboy poetry - hot and sweaty desert tortoise sex with attendant population boom

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (HsTG8)

128 Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed.

Posted by: AMDG

I bought a kilo once...

Posted by: Al Sharpton at April 14, 2014 12:34 PM (MNq6o)

129 121 Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed. Posted by: AMDG ----------------- In point of fact, it is a dump. Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 04:34 PM (aDwsi) I propose it be developed for the future site of the US Supreme Court building.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:35 PM (oMKp3)

130 Posted by: GnuBreed at April 14, 2014 04:28 PM (wNF3N) But the Feds don't have the money because of Sequester to tend to feral horses in S Utah and ranchers have to thin their here there by half. GEH. You got this one wrong.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at April 14, 2014 12:36 PM (/djtm)

131 One thing (out of many) that was creepy was the money Bundy was originally paying the feds ended up being used for lawyers against him. That was the last straw, he said. The money he gave them was supposed to maintain the fences, etc. Bundy has, and still does own the water rights and so forth to the land. He paid for it years ago. The government found loopholes in the laws to try to force him to cull is own herd to the point he couldn't support the ranch or his family. I am stunned at what happened and how they backed down. Optics before elections. Free Speech "Zones," dead calves and Harry Reid.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:36 PM (IXrOn)

132 So Al finally gave in to Peg?

Posted by: teh Wind at April 14, 2014 12:36 PM (B3WUC)

133 I still feel terrible for the other families in the area forced to leave. Their heritage and birthright unsustainable because of govt greed and rights over a turtle.

The Lannisters should just have declared Winterfell a Direwolf/Heart Tree endangered habitat once Robert died; could have forced them off the land through taxes and govt oversight. No blood necessary!

Posted by: LizLem at April 14, 2014 12:37 PM (yRwC8)

134 115 >> Somewhat related: Kelo is still not developed.
 
And if there was such a thing as true justice, every SC member that voted in favor of the taking in Kelo should have THEIR homes taken away via eminent domain.

Posted by: GnuBreed at April 14, 2014 12:37 PM (wNF3N)

135 131

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 04:36 PM (IXrOn)

On the money, every word. 


Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:37 PM (TX75W)

136 The Federal Government has zero credibility. - that's the problem in a nutshell. Add to that the courts have zero credibility.

Posted by: WalrusRex at April 14, 2014 12:38 PM (XUKZU)

137 If they gave a shit about the turtles, they wouldn't be euthanizing them.
Posted by: EC


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzL_wyMahU

Posted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 12:38 PM (MNq6o)

138 Reid vows it's not over. DRUDGE REPORT ‏@DRUDGE_REPORT 12m Sen. Reid: 'It's not over'... http://drudge.tw/1ijeyVl RENO, Nev. (MyNews4.com & KRNV) -- Senate majority leader Harry Reid hasn't been very vocal about the cattle battle showdown in recent days, but says "it's not over." Reid tells News4's Samantha Boatman his take on the so-called cattle battle in southern Las Vegas. "Well, it's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 12:38 PM (ZPrif)

139

Had there been shots fired and dead bodies on both sides of the line, who would you believe? The Feds or Bundy?

 

 

 

Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:32 PM (GQ8sn)

 

 

Not the feds. 

 

To be complete:  Just because the feds are wrong does not mean Bundy is right.  It just means the feds are wrong. 

Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 14, 2014 12:38 PM (fwARV)

140

We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said.

 

 

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 04:38 PM (ZPrif)

 

 

Why the hell not?  We've got an American president who changes the law willy nilly and walks away from it.

 

Attitude reflects leadership.

Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 14, 2014 12:39 PM (fwARV)

141 Yeah, I expect the Feds to slowball this until after the election, then strike.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 12:39 PM (ZPrif)

142 Reid tells News4's Samantha Boatman his take on the so-called cattle battle in southern Las Vegas. "Well, it's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said. Let me guess: Hawwy is on board with having the Senate conduct impeachment trials for Barky and Holder?

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (HsTG8)

143 Yeah, I expect the Feds to slowball this until after the election, then strike.


You mean.....delay?


I wonder where they learned that trick?

Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (GQ8sn)

144 We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said. - Who do they think they are? Democrat politicians?

Posted by: WalrusRex at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (XUKZU)

145 We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said. Oh. That's rich. That just about takes the cake I'd say.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (oMKp3)

146 Heard somewhere he has been paying the county which was the original agreement.

You heard wrong. He tried to pay the county but the county wouldn't take it because they don't own the land. You'd think if the state or the county actually owned the land they would admit to it and take his money. If he was taking Obamaphones and EBT cards you'd all be shrieking and wailing, but taking hundreds of thousands of dollars of grazing rights? Defiance!!

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (+lsX1)

147 Eh, BLM will go to court, get some form of justification, then launch a midnight attack & kill the whole family in their sleep. They'll claim they were resisting, a judge will rubber stamp it, and the land will be grabbed by a developer.

Posted by: nnptcgrad at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (j9xlc)

148 I'm not sure any of the facts matter in this case. This is all about the narrative and the mood of the country. The BLM was in a bad position no matter what. Even if they were 100% in the right, the country isn't ready to hear that the government is ruining a hard working cowboy. One more week and there would have been 100,000 people on site with the appropriate weaponry. The BLM bailed out just in time.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 12:40 PM (u2a4R)

149 Well I'm pretty sure the Feds have been pushing this guy pretty hard. Some people don't push. Google Carl Draga the media had him as a total wack job but people in the know will tell you otherwise. I don't agree with what he did. I guess it depends on who shoots first.There use to be 53 ranchers now there is 1 they been trying to force him off a long held arrangement. He owns about 150 acres the Feds control 84% on NV. He can't make a living on his land

Posted by: NativeNH at April 14, 2014 12:41 PM (CxD2R)

150 There are 1,001 pending actions, lawsuits by animals rights organizations, rules by the EPA, endangered and threatened species listings by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, etc., etc., that ranchers and farmers have to contend with today. Actions and lawsuits that will limit their use of land and water -- not only in a case like this, a rancher grazing cattle on public lands, but farmers and ranchers who own their land outright.

You know the pathetic little doggies that stare at you from the TV screen when the Humane Society of the US (HSUS) runs their commercial?  They're rasing money not to save those little doggies and kittehs, but in their ongoing efforts to try to stop livestock for meat production in this country.

The HSUS spends most its donations on ending livestock production. Only a tiny amount on 'saving doggehs.'

Posted by: Sphynx at April 14, 2014 12:41 PM (OZmbA)

151 >>> This was Occupy Wall Street with horses

The Horse Occupier? Occupies with Wolves? An Occupier Runs Through It? Game of Tortoises?

Posted by: These are the jokes folks at April 14, 2014 12:41 PM (yRwC8)

152

27Harry Reid is the Director of NAMBLA -- Nevada-American Management Bureau of Land Assets.


What -- does that acronym have another meaning too?

 

Posted by: zombie at April 14, 2014 04:16 PM (mizYg)

 

 

Nonsense. Harry Reid looks nothing like Marlon Brando.

Posted by: National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes at April 14, 2014 12:41 PM (EDWuJ)

153 We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it.

Foreign nationals, OTOH, we give them free shit when they violate the laws.

Posted by: HR at April 14, 2014 12:41 PM (ZKzrr)

154 "We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said." Aww. I bet Sebelius was looking forward to retirement. Guess Reid just cannot abide.

Posted by: AMDG at April 14, 2014 12:42 PM (eFytx)

155 Background from another rancher.
Bundy chose to push back when the BLM was pushing other ranchers off the land.

Posted by: Hotel1

Interesting, and if true, damning.

Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i][/b] at April 14, 2014 12:42 PM (8MBOc)

156 The Federal Government has zero credibility. ------------------- It is worse than that.

Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 12:43 PM (aDwsi)

157 Why am I seeing an ad for a local bail bondsman on this page? Is this a subtle signal from the NSA?

Posted by: Ima Frayed Knot™ [/i] [/s] [/u] at April 14, 2014 12:43 PM (HsTG8)

158 For those of you that are concerned about the grazing fees, let me point out that BLM puts all sorts of restrictions on your lease when you sign off on making those payments. In my lawsuit with WA state DNR, I paid the fees for my leased area. They returned the money then said in court that the fees hadn't been

Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 12:43 PM (Lqy/e)

159 "We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said." How careful he was to include "American."

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:43 PM (IXrOn)

160 Whoever said the word "sunlight" upthread hit the nail squarely. It seems to me that the early attention is the only reason this didn't escalate into a Ruby Ridge or Waco scenario. And EC - I don't care about the situation anymore- I NEVER trust the feds.

Posted by: shredded chi at April 14, 2014 12:44 PM (8Samq)

161 "We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said." ---------------------- Oh. Like Barack Obama, Eric Holder and Lois Lerner?

Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 12:44 PM (aDwsi)

162 >>> We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said.

I agree! *claps Reid in irons, hauls him to the county jail*

Posted by: Justice at April 14, 2014 12:44 PM (yRwC8)

163 A very commendable Ace-post.

Posted by: Baldy at April 14, 2014 12:45 PM (2bql3)

164 158 For those of you that are concerned about the grazing fees, let me point out that BLM puts all sorts of restrictions on your lease when you sign off on making those payments. In my lawsuit with WA state DNR, I paid the fees for my leased area. They returned the money then said in court that the fees hadn't been

Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 04:43 PM (Lqy/e)

That's exactly why Bundy wouldn't sign their "contract".   He was already maintaining all of the fences and water stations (that they said they would maintain) before they cut his head of allowable "grazers" to 150 (out of around 1,000).     

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:45 PM (TX75W)

165 159 161 Good point, I forgot to include the 'Undocumented Americans'

Posted by: Mike Hammer at April 14, 2014 12:45 PM (aDwsi)

166 "We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it." Sen. Harry Reid That is an amazing quote from Mr. Amnesty.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 12:45 PM (ZPrif)

167

For two other bogus endangered species actions, see the delta smelt--dust bowl and tens of thousand out of work, and the spotted owl.

In the latter case, the spotted owl is--was--being exterminated by the barred owl, so our myrmidons are killing the barred owl to protect the spotted owl.  Facts nowithstanding, the northwest timber industry was crippled and thousands and thousands out of work.  And, even if the barred owl weren't in the picture, the spotted owl can use many habitats besides old growth forest.

The idea that there's any percentage in believing the feds on this one is pretty slim.

Oh, yeah. I watched the hearings on Waco and Ruby Ridge. What the feds stipulated to--to get it out of the way--was beyond the imaginings of some neo-nazi nutcase.

So when it comes to dueling credibility, the feds overspent their account long ago.

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at April 14, 2014 12:45 PM (sEWAz)

168 Stupid iPhone. Fees hadn't been paid. Let me tell you, you have no idea what it's like to have the government strip you of your rights and slant the laws to the own benefit. The courts are a rubberstamp for anything they want to do.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 12:46 PM (Lqy/e)

169 I wonder what triggered the force, though. If this case has been going on for decades, what triggered the helo's rounding up the cattle at this particular time?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:46 PM (IXrOn)

170 I wonder what triggered the force, though. If this case has been going on for decades, what triggered the helo's rounding up the cattle at this particular time?

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 04:46 PM (IXrOn)



That was my original question up top.  What precipitated the massive show of force on the gov's part? 

Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:47 PM (GQ8sn)

171

I wonder what triggered the force, though. If this case has been going on for decades, what triggered the helo's rounding up the cattle at this particular time?

 

 

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 04:46 PM (IXrOn)

 

 

Is there anything the feds haven't gotten their way on recently?  Strike while the iron is hot, and all that.

 

Just look at how this 'ended.'  When the feds faced opposition, they left.

Posted by: Washington Nearsider, who does NOT speak for the Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General at April 14, 2014 12:47 PM (fwARV)

172 Reid tells News4's Samantha Boatman his take on the so-called cattle battle in southern Las Vegas. "Well, it's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said.
***

Yeah, there's a process. You have to get elected or appointed first.

Posted by: B at April 14, 2014 12:47 PM (twiRb)

173 I saw a description of the Animal Monthly Unit (?) or whatever system, and how fees and permits are imposed and suspended at the keyboard of some bureaucrat, and it told me all I needed to know about how the BLM operates. It's a system designed to lead to Government takeover of acreage, for whatever reason. Literal takeover. Ever notice that "Federal lands" are the ones with the most restrictions?

Posted by: Lincolntf at April 14, 2014 12:48 PM (ZshNr)

174 @169 It seems to coincide with reids homeboy becoming head of the BLM.

Posted by: Kreplach at April 14, 2014 12:48 PM (PVNda)

175 That was my original question up top. What precipitated the massive show of force on the gov's part? Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:47 PM (GQ8sn) Either Reid was still holding out hope for the solar farm, and the Chinese finally gave a definitive no, or he found a new deal for the land.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:49 PM (IXrOn)

176 Outta' the park Ace! Outta' the park.

Posted by: BuckIV at April 14, 2014 12:49 PM (CLfqv)

177 Conspiracy theories aside, what was the justification for the level of hardware on the part of the BLM? If they wanted to remove his cattle, they didn't need snipers to do it, unless they were deployed to actually shoot his cattle.
--------
37 The FAA declared a no-fly zone over the ranch, up to and including 3000 feet, 3 miles in circumference.

Now why do you suppose they did that just for what was essentially a cattle drive?
--------
I did hear reports they were killing cows, something about they also had a backhoe and a dump truck back there.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 14, 2014 12:49 PM (VjL9S)

178 Let me tell you, you have no idea what it's like to have the government strip you of your rights and slant the laws to the own benefit. The courts are a rubberstamp for anything they want to do. Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 04:46 PM (Lqy/e) I was listening to a couple from Florida the other day that ran an orchard there for about 30 years or so. The government apparently wanted their land for some project , so they flooded it by creating some kind of tributary, then declared their orchards a wetland and shut them down.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:49 PM (oMKp3)

179 Posted by: Lincolntf at April 14, 2014 04:48 PM (ZshNr) Much like flood zones post-Katrina.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at April 14, 2014 12:50 PM (bftFq)

180 That was my original question up top. What precipitated the massive show of force on the gov's part? Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:47 PM (GQ8sn) Probably some innocuous call from a supervisor asking a low level bureaucrat if that "Bundy mess" had been cleared up, followed by a reminder that the person's yearly review was coming up next month.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 12:50 PM (u2a4R)

181 The armed nature of the confrontation by the Feds, provoking an armed response, pissed me off. Kooks came out of the woodwork, and I blame BLM for that entirely. Beyond that, I wondered all along why the Feds own so much of Nevada. They should consolidate their positions and sell off the pieces that have economic value, and for those pieces ranchers want to use I would say those ranchers should buy the land or pay fair market value for its use. Did Bundy pay fair market value? Ever?

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 12:50 PM (F58x4)

182 Can you imagine how pear shaped this would have gone with Putin at the controls? Sometimes it's better to have a wuss pulling the levers of state power.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at April 14, 2014 12:50 PM (hDwVv)

183 "Federal funds are running out at the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center and officials plan to close the site and euthanize hundreds of the tortoises they've been caring for since the animals were added to the endangered species list in 1990."

As one of the 'ettes pointed out, the sequence went like this:

First off, the gooberment went around to private citizens who were keeping tortoises as pets, and confiscated the animals at gunpoint. Because the tortoise is a PROTECTED SPECIES, and allowing ordinary citizens to own such animals might result in needless deaths among that PROTECTED SPECIES.

Then after collecting all of the privately owned examples of this PROTECTED SPECIES under one roof, the gooberment decides it can't afford to feed the tortoises and is going to kill them all.

Because deaths of a PROTECTED SPECIES under color of authority are always preferable to having those animals alive and in private hands.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Posted by: torquewrench at April 14, 2014 12:50 PM (noWW6)

184 In a year when Democrats have tried to back the preposterous notion that only members of the Petrified Press qualify for consideration as protected under the First Amendment, it is refreshing and cheering to see a well-chosen and clearly explained example of press restraint and sound judgment by my favorite political website. What's depressing about it is the appalling lack of any apposite examples from those who profess to be journalistic professionals.

Posted by: Fred Baumann at April 14, 2014 12:51 PM (QjFDb)

185 Is anyone watching this goofy beyotch on Cavuto, arguing that Bubba Watson should set a better example and eat oatmeal instead of eating at Waffle House.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 14, 2014 12:51 PM (DmNpO)

186 Can you imagine how pear shaped this would have gone with Putin at the controls?


Pear shaped?  No.


Middle of the night.  Quick, clean, no trace and no media.


Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:52 PM (GQ8sn)

187 Did Bundy pay fair market value? Ever?

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 04:50 PM (F58x4)


no

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 12:52 PM (bStrg)

188 185 Is anyone watching this goofy beyotch on Cavuto, arguing that Bubba Watson should set a better example and eat oatmeal instead of eating at Waffle House. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 14, 2014 04:51 PM (DmNpO) oh for the love of pete

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 12:52 PM (oMKp3)

189 I don't know if anyone here also read the case in Colorado. Same kind of deal. They searched for loopholes (eminent domain) to try to force some people from their land. Another Government Grab Battle Waged Against Property Owners In Colorado Land is the best asset to hold. The very wealthy and the government own most of the land in the US (obviously) and it's being eaten up. http://tinyurl.com/q3a4yd3 RECKENRIDGE, Colo. – ”They’re spending us to death,” said landowner Andy Barrie. He is not talking about property taxes, inflation or even the cost of skiing in glitzy ski country. Rather, he’s talking about the legal fight he and his wife have been waging to save their pristine piece of mountain property — with breathtaking views of Colorado’s high country — from being taken over by the county through eminent domain. Their battle is a unique test of private property rights. [...] another horrible story

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:52 PM (IXrOn)

190 I am afraid that everyone may have learned the wrong lessons here.

Posted by: blaster at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (4+AaH)

191 Did Bundy pay fair market value? Ever? Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 04:50 PM (F58x4) __________ His family has owned the land before Nevada was even a state.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (0LHZx)

192

My guess is that the BLM came ready for war because Bundy says a lot of things that a Sovereign Citizen would say and federal agents are terrified of SC's.  I work pretty closely between my employer and our local fusion center and the assigned DHS agents spend a LOT of time discussing the SC movement and their enthusiasm when it comes to confronting law enforcement personnel, both in court and in potentially violent situations.

BLM showed up with enough numbers to deal with Bundy's family, but arrived with such an obscene display that they attracted more than they bargained for. 

They were expecting a possible Ruby Ridge and almost ended up with a Lexington and Concord.

Posted by: Thrill at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (8J5Ck)

193 The only difference between then and some other
incidents (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian, the Hutarree, et al) is the internet
and instant communication to bring attention quickly to the matter. The
Feds realized that the whole world WAS watching.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That (Waiting For SMODOT)
And Obama wants an internet kill switch in the White House... hmmPosted by: Dang at April 14, 2014 04:21 PM (MNq6o)

The thing I found most frightening about this story, after the blatant govt trampling on rights of course, was how quickly they were able to kill communications in the area, which prevented citizens from posting pics/vids online and via social media. But of course only China and those barbaric countries to the East trample on their citizen's rights, not here, no never...

Posted by: LizLem at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (yRwC8)

194 187 Did Bundy pay fair market value? Ever?

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 04:50 PM (F58x4)

no

Posted by: The Dude at April 14, 2014 04:52 PM (bStrg)

Define "fair"

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (TX75W)

195 Yes, Rory Reid, Val Jar, GE, and the usual assortment of political cronies, bundlers, and crooks ARE involved:

http://tinyurl.com/ptrxmlx

Posted by: ChrisP at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (GQXLh)

196 Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:52 PM (GQ8sn) I envisioned an upside down pear.

Posted by: Golfman in NC at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (/djtm)

197 If the folks with the orchard want some fun, they should get the files on them through Freedom of Infomation. DNR had a list of demands that my boyfriend was supposed to do by their deadline, while he was in the hospital recovering from surgery. Meanwhile the DNR employees were whining about how they'd been sick and hadn't been around to push papers. Oh and lots of stuff about how they wanted to charge us the highest possible lease fees.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 12:53 PM (Lqy/e)

198 RECKENRIDGE, Colo. – ”They’re spending us to death,” said landowner Andy Barrie. He is not talking about property taxes, inflation or even the cost of skiing in glitzy ski country. Rather, he’s talking about the legal fight he and his wife have been waging to save their pristine piece of mountain property — with breathtaking views of Colorado’s high country — from being taken over by the county through eminent domain. Their battle is a unique test of private property rights. [...] another horrible story Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 04:52 PM (IXrOn) __________ Pfffft....we see land, we take land. fuck you property owner.

Posted by: KELO Decision at April 14, 2014 12:54 PM (0LHZx)

199 If your name is Bubba and you are in Augusta, Georgia, you go to Waffle House. I think it's the law.

Posted by: blaster at April 14, 2014 12:54 PM (4+AaH)

200 I Beyond that, I wondered all along why the Feds own so much of Nevada. --- The government probably never bothered to hold land sales of government parcels like they did in countless other territories, most likely because the lack of water in the Nevada desert would have meant few buyers. Probably the same reason that so much of New Mexico is still federal land.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at April 14, 2014 12:54 PM (APuJ7)

201 The land that the cattle are grazing on isn't worth much.  It is a hellish landscape, almost desert.  In fact, the land would be worth far more if the Chinese were willing to buy it, with or without the Searchlight Stalker.

Posted by: Truck Monkey, Gruntled New Business Owner at April 14, 2014 12:55 PM (jucos)

202 "Beyond that, I wondered all along why the Feds own so much of Nevada."

And so much of so many of the other Western states.

Best explanation I have ever heard goes back to the original Sagebrush Rebellion.

Eastern political and economic interests have always worried about losing their sway relative to the West, ever since the union expanded into those big new states. And if all of the huge amounts of land owned by the feds in the West were to be placed into productive private ownership, the comparative economic ranking of the East would shortly thereafter begin to slip.

That's what it all ultimately comes down to. Money money money.

Easterners who support the federal death grip on Western land say that the reason is "conservation", but if that's so, why is such a far smaller percentage of land in their own Eastern states set aside for conservation purposes relative to what is set aside in the West?

Posted by: torquewrench at April 14, 2014 12:55 PM (noWW6)

203 That was my original question up top. What precipitated the massive show of force on the gov's part?
***

It's called justifying your budget for next year. 


Posted by: B at April 14, 2014 12:55 PM (twiRb)

204 "Middle of the night. Quick, clean, no trace and no media." Yeh, that ain't no shit when you actually think about it.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at April 14, 2014 12:55 PM (hDwVv)

205 Nood

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at April 14, 2014 12:56 PM (oFCZn)

206 What is the fair value of grazing? It's not like he built a building that crossed over the property line into his neighbors yard. As I understand it, cattle ranching in any region requires moving them around, based on weather, temperature, size of herd, competitors, etc. Not that you can't have cows in a factory farm, but this is a different way of doing it, and it used to work for Westerners, until big daddy BLM and the crack tortoise team were assigned to the case.

Posted by: Lincolntf at April 14, 2014 12:56 PM (ZshNr)

207 I was listening to a couple from Florida the other day that ran an orchard there for about 30 years or so. The government apparently wanted their land for some project , so they flooded it by creating some kind of tributary, then declared their orchards a wetland and shut them down. Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 04:49 PM (oMKp3) Wow. Makes you wonder if shutting down the delta in California, using the smelt story, was really a deal with Mexico to produce.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 14, 2014 12:56 PM (IXrOn)

208 Yeh, that ain't no shit when you actually think about it.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at April 14, 2014 04:55 PM (hDwVv)



Makes me wonder if that's already happened on his watch many times over.



Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:56 PM (GQ8sn)

209 I was listening to a couple from Florida the other day that ran an orchard there for about 30 years or so. The government apparently wanted their land for some project , so they flooded it by creating some kind of tributary, then declared their orchards a wetland and shut them down. **** ATC told the story a few days ago about folks who are clear-cutting their land in order to avoid being labeled a habitat for some type of woodpecker.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 14, 2014 12:57 PM (DmNpO)

210 Give Bundy some appeasement for his easement.

Posted by: Johnny Cochran at April 14, 2014 12:58 PM (6cOMd)

211 His family has owned the land before Nevada was even a state.

Jesus. His family never owned the land. They grazed cattle on public land. The federal government owned the land before Nevada was a state and the federal government still owns it. They only one claiming that the state or county owns it is the guy that's been grazing his cattle for free for the last 20 years.

Posted by: Gristle Encased Head at April 14, 2014 12:58 PM (+lsX1)

212 the BLM owns 85% of Nevada.   Let that sink in. 

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 12:58 PM (TX75W)

213 "Beyond that, I wondered all along why the Feds own so much of Nevada." It's not just Nevada. The federal government owns a shit load of land across the country. Not only do "they" (which means us) own the land, but what is on it and under it, along with the continental shelves out to about 200 miles on all sides. Why the federal government owns land is a mystery. However, if we ever needed to come up with a quick 125 trillion to pay off debt and rebuild the infrastructure, this is where it will come from.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 12:59 PM (u2a4R)

214 This comment was left on Glenn Beck's facebook posts about the situation. It certainly sounds knowledgeable, but I have no way of knowing. "There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero."

Posted by: Lauren at April 14, 2014 12:59 PM (IHj/L)

215 However, if we ever needed to come up with a quick 125 trillion to pay off debt and rebuild the infrastructure, this is where it will come from.


So, the mother of all Ponzi scams?


Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 12:59 PM (GQ8sn)

216 I think the BLM case was lost when they had the pictures of the guard dogs and taser attack. Just looks too much like the treatment given to civil rights protestors.

Plus, God forbid that someone opens fire and we have a massacre at the hands of the BLM, that would dominate the news cycle and step on the war on women and inequality narratives planned by the MSM. 

Lots of mixed news in this story. But I sense dingy harry called his  minion and told him to be "French" and withdraw.

Posted by: standfast24 at April 14, 2014 01:00 PM (wx/BY)

217 This is what I posted this morning:

The federal government is authorized "to exercise like Authority over all
Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which
the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals,
dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings." Art. I, section 8.

So? Aren't BLM lands unconstitutional? They only reason they exist is via a contract of adhesion and coercion by the Feds in the first place.

That is, as a price of statehood.

============
Tell me again how it is wrong for Bundy to refuse to pay grazing fees; I'm squinting real hard but not reading  it in Art. I, section 8.

Now, you see his claim. The State of NV could not have sold that land to the feds as there was no "Legislature of the State" yet. So, it's Nevada's land until it's paid for by the feds.

Oh, and but I guess we can point to a decision by the federal judge that says otherwise as definitive, right? Since that's a totally neutral arbitrator and stuff.

Posted by: RoyalOil at April 14, 2014 01:00 PM (VjL9S)

218 181 The armed nature of the confrontation by the Feds, provoking an armed response, pissed me off. Kooks came out of the woodwork, and I blame BLM for that entirely. One mans kook is another mans patriot. Who in the hell do you think is going to stand up. Obviously not you

Posted by: NativeNH at April 14, 2014 01:02 PM (CxD2R)

219 Makes you wonder if shutting down the delta in California, using the smelt story, was really a deal with Mexico to produce. Funny you should mention that. Both this couple and other farmers that have similar problems with the Feds were making that same argument: that the government has deals with Latin American countries to let their produce in at much cheaper rates and with much less restriction on food safety.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 01:02 PM (oMKp3)

220 It does seem that BLM intentionally set the grazing fees at a level that made it cost-prohibitive. So, yes, you can ranch here if you pay the fee -- it's just the fees are so high it will ruin you. I think "necessarily skyrocket" is something the Left likes use to nudge people into compliance.

Posted by: Costanza Defense at April 14, 2014 01:03 PM (ZPrif)

221 We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said. -------- So, when does Harry go to jail?

Posted by: LFW - Honorary Pointy-Eared Vulcan at April 14, 2014 01:03 PM (RQDhf)

222

140
We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said.

*******************

Right. Only illegals can do that.

Posted by: Warden at April 14, 2014 01:03 PM (HzhBE)

223 So I shared ace's trepidation about the standoff with the feds, not least when I saw people asking questions about "what kind of guns should we bring?"

It was pretty clear that the feds would have been happy to have a narrative about "dangerously anarchic trigger-happy gun nuts" if there had been so much as a single negligent discharge.

I personally would have shown up unarmed.

Wearing a baseball cap backwards, cheap drugstore sunglasses, flip flops, board shorts, and a muscle T-shirt that says, "INSTANT ASSHOLE, JUST ADD ALCOHOL".

Then get busy posting on Farcebook and Twatter.

"Bro! This blows! That cabbie on the Vegas Strip was supposed to take us to the #BunnyRanch and instead we're at this #BundyRanch place. With a bunch of rude Feds throwing their weight around and behaving like total dickheads. That's MY job."

Posted by: torquewrench at April 14, 2014 01:04 PM (noWW6)

224 191 His family has owned the land before Nevada was even a state. Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at April 14, 2014 04:53 PM (0LHZx) =========================== First off, I want to again make clear I hate it that the Feds showed up with guns and tried to use force here. Screw that. And if Hairy Reed likes it, I hate it. So there's that too. But, I think the Blaze article today makes clear that just the reverse is true: the Feds own the land and have since well before the territory became a state. The government bought the land free and clear. This law says the BLM is supposed to make range land available for domestic animal grazing, at fair market value. If Bundy wants to argue that the BLM doesn't do that, then, fine, make that argument. But you can't just use somebody else's land and not pay. http://www.blm.gov/flpma/FLPMA.pdf

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:04 PM (F58x4)

225 Not that correlation is causation, but you notice as our debt has increased, so has the amount of land ownership by the Feds? Do you honestly believe that entities, including foreign governments, would simply purchase American bonds with strictly fiat backing? Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that land/water/mineral rights were being used as collateral for the lending process? I know, what an outrageous conspiracy theory. That just so happens to be the way secured loans are usually done around the world.

Posted by: @koenigjojo at April 14, 2014 01:04 PM (2wawf)

226 >>>The courts are a rubberstamp for anything they want to do. Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 04:46 PM (Lqy/e)>>> Government courts look out for the government interests.

Posted by: gm at April 14, 2014 01:05 PM (/kBoL)

227 Desert turtles make yummy soup to feed the poor, repressed wetbacks struggling out of love to evade US immigration laws. Back off you white racist sexist homo-islamophobic mouth breathers clinging to bibles and guns.

Posted by: Angel with a sword at April 14, 2014 01:05 PM (hpgw1)

228 So, the mother of all Ponzi scams? Posted by: EC at April 14, 2014 04:59 PM (GQ8sn) Not a Ponzi scam, but a scam just the same. The assets are real. They are worth a nuclear butt load of money. The scam will be the quasi-independent agency created to hold and sell the assets while immediately advancing a nebulous number to the U.S. treasury that solves all our problems for a hundred years and protects the politician's phony-balony jobs.

Posted by: jwest at April 14, 2014 01:05 PM (u2a4R)

229 Worrying over who was right or wrong in this case seems to miss the point a bit.  The truly remarkable thing was that the feds were threatened with force to meet their force and they backed off.  That sets a precedent that might be very useful going forward as the US continues along in its post-constitutional phase.  This is something I did not expect to see happen.  It has to hearten the people who are ignoring the unconstitutional orders on firearms in various states.  That seems like it could be another flashpoint for a confrontation of this sort.

Posted by: Thatch at April 14, 2014 01:05 PM (qYvEa)

230 133--Thread winner.

Posted by: Thrill at April 14, 2014 01:05 PM (8J5Ck)

231 This isn't over.

Posted by: Federick Forrest at April 14, 2014 01:08 PM (nTBdj)

232 they ran rough-shod on the cow/calf pairs and the rest of the herd. you do not run your market beef cattle. let alone with helicopters. plus, with the amount of land versus the herd, it's suspect to say that measurable amounts of the tortoise were being destroyed.

Posted by: Puncher at April 14, 2014 01:09 PM (1YgVg)

233 Posted by: Lauren at April 14, 2014 04:59 PM (IHj/L) ====================== Now that sounds like a post from someone who knows some facts, and, assuming that's all true, I'd be sympathetic to the argument. State of Nevada politicians probably used to care a lot more about the economic plight of ranchers (and what happened to them in fights with the BLM) back when there were lots more ranchers. Now, all those politicos care about is probably how well the strip is performing. That's a big part of the problem here.

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:10 PM (F58x4)

234 "However, if we ever needed to come up with a quick 125 trillion to pay off debt and rebuild the infrastructure, [selling off federal land] is where it will come from."

I started to run the numbers once on a market valuation of Camp Pendleton.

A huge chunk of prime Southern California seashore land.

Just assigning values compared to communities nearby... wow.

Of course, we better not give the current regime any ideas, or they're liable to go and sell it off to Al Sharpton Asset Management for pennies on the dollar.

Posted by: torquewrench at April 14, 2014 01:10 PM (noWW6)

235 But, I think the Blaze article today makes clear that just the reverse is true: the Feds own the land and have since well before the territory became a state. WTF does that even mean? The Feds own 85% of Arizona? Shouldn't the state lines be redrawn to show this? I thought the only true fed land was the District of Columbia? The BLM should be kicked out of AZ, not the other way around.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at April 14, 2014 01:10 PM (Fp7JI)

236 If the Feds own Nevada, then they should have no representation in the house or senate.

Posted by: grammie winger at April 14, 2014 01:12 PM (oMKp3)

237 I meant NV, but the grist of my comments stands. grammie winger gets it...

Posted by: Cicero Kid at April 14, 2014 01:13 PM (Fp7JI)

238 Felt the same way, and I still don't know the truth of the matter.

Posted by: Mekan at April 14, 2014 01:15 PM (zG16+)

239 The government retreated for a couple of days,  they will extract revenge in a different form after April 15th.

Posted by: Levin at April 14, 2014 01:16 PM (nU8lz)

240 >>Nonsense. Harry Reid looks nothing like Marlon Brando. Posted by: National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes He does, however, seem to buy an excessive amount of butter.

Posted by: Aviator at April 14, 2014 01:17 PM (3rrMW)

241 When you look at a map of Nevada, a huge state and see the land not owned by the Feds and available for citizens to use, it's only 15 or shopper cent of the total. Then exclude the land used up by cities and you begin to see the problem is a big one. Then you further notice that the federal land is usually not consolidated into blocks, and instead is spread allover hell and gone in little bits of everything. That's a situation that needs to be remedied, and the Federal people need to get out of the land business unless there's a good damn reason to own it, or no one wants it. Let someone put it to good use.

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:17 PM (F58x4)

242 Posted by: Cicero Kid at April 14, 2014 05:10 PM (Fp7JI) ============== Reading helps. The "land" being referenced is the specific area of Nevada that Bundy was claiming the right to use. The U.S. bought the land for cash from Mexico. Nevada was a territory at the time. When Nevada became a state, its state constitution specifically acknowledged federal ownership of that land, amongst other land the Feds owned. buddy's family arrived well AFTER ownership was long settled, and began to ranch the area. That's what those words in the Blaze article said. If you don't like it, take it up with them or prove them wrong.

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:21 PM (F58x4)

243 242 "buddy's family " should have read "Bundy's family"

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:23 PM (F58x4)

244 It's no wonder NV is so screwed up. It is not a State. NV is federally owned. The border needs redrawn.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at April 14, 2014 01:29 PM (Fp7JI)

245 I have friends out West who tell me the BLM is more hated than the IRS. There are horror stories about how the BLM will arbitrarily alter long-standing agreements and We the People can't do a damn thing about it. This is not how it was supposed to be.



The rancher was not perfect, but I have the belief that he at least started out trying to negotiate in good faith, and you give me enough time to put together a narrative and the MSM to tote my water and I'll have your own mother believing you are an unhinged lunatic.


IMO all Federal lands not actively in use for Federal uses (military bases, Nat'l parks, Fed buildings, etc) should immediately be turned over to the States and the counties in which that land lies to manage. That's a huge transference of power, though, so don't look for it to happen any time soon.

Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at April 14, 2014 01:30 PM (yh0zB)

246 Emigrate to Canada or Mexico or Belize or some other country where the US government doesn't own huge tracts of land. Apparently America is too un-American for you. It is not a constitutional crisis that the federal government owns land, and people are tenants and leaseholders from the evil federal government. It's been that way all your lives. Your grandparents' lives. Since 1848. Up until after WW2, when they had the interstate highway system, abundant electric power, and air conditioning, you couldn't give desert land away. I mean literally -- there was a homestead Act in place, and this stuff still didn't get occupied. I can see people saying "federal land management is mishandled". But pretending that its 1776 because the federal government DARES operate as a landlord-- that's just so ignorant of actual history, it's kooky. Federal ownership and leaseholding predates every Western state except California, and that's only because of the Gold Rush. Everywhere else was a federal territory for decades before the influx of population justified the creation of a state government. And even then, those new states didn't usurp federal ownership. They didn't want to. It would have been pointless costs for no improvement in services. And it is no place for a tenant to decide which government entity is his rightful landlord. That's axiomatic.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 01:32 PM (5xmd7)

247 Maybe at our Article V convention we ought to get an amendment saying the federal government cannot own more than, say, 5% of a state without paying property taxes and unless the people of the state approve the ownership every ten years in a referendum,

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:33 PM (F58x4)

248 It's never over for the Feds, particularly during Holy Week. It's when Democrats are at their best.

Posted by: Elian Gonzalez at April 14, 2014 01:35 PM (lJLML)

249 They were just starting the interview with Bundy on Beck this morning when the local station broke in with some asinine breaking news about a corrupt local sheriff, in other words normal news in this area. The reporter kept droning on about it for 20 minutes, until Beck was just saying goodbye to Bundy. Almost like someone doesn't want to hear anything about this. I called the station immediately and told them local corruption was baloney as far as breaking news.

Posted by: Bill sometimes bill from Canada at April 14, 2014 01:35 PM (0zZxy)

250 My supposition is that the underlying motivation in the BLM enforcing this old court order now has something to do with land use and money. Lots of money. Let's see who gets rich coming out of this (if it ever comes to light).

Posted by: Seamus M. at April 14, 2014 01:37 PM (MKpBT)

251 I usually took the nephews out to clubs on Easter weekend. We'd pick up some gals and bring them back to the Estate for some festivities. Near the end, I would just wander around the halls in my briefs. One of the nephews got in some trouble.

Posted by: Senator Ted Kennedy at April 14, 2014 01:38 PM (lJLML)

252 Yeah, I love Easter weekend. I think I did some intern that weekend. Woowee! And sent SWAT teams after ol' Ealion on Good Friday. Woowee! And took that big ass Bible to Church on Sunday.

Posted by: Former President Bill Clinton at April 14, 2014 01:40 PM (lJLML)

253 Why didn't the BLM put a lien on Bundy's property for the unpaid "fees"?

Posted by: JeffersonTeaParty at April 14, 2014 01:45 PM (TX75W)

254 Ace says "In this situation, with guns assembled on both sides, it seemed wrong (to me) to do that." Like the American Revolution? I am not equating the two issues. If issues such as with Bundy are avoided because both sides (the government at all levels are always armed) are armed, a lot of foreign policy will stop being discussed here. More importantly any issue in the future that might have citizens arming themselves against government tyranny won't be discussed here? When the issue got attention I thought the rancher had to be wrong because the Feds said he didn't pay his blm fees and plus he was killing tortoises. Then we find out Harry Reid got an easement for a politically connected person but this ranchers family working the same land for over a century was being forcibly harassed. There are several more issues within the story that Ace and the others here could have provided more insight than I. Lots of serious things get discussed here without having all the facts. Just was surprised this issue was avoided till it was over.

Posted by: I4cu2 at April 14, 2014 01:49 PM (CiDmi)

255 That this ramped up so fast and so quickly ended has me thinking that Reid had his BLM buddy to call off his goon squad.

Posted by: Cheri at April 14, 2014 01:49 PM (VDGzf)

256 Ace, good points.

In this one I trust Dana Loesch, who comes from a family of cattle ranchers, to understand the grazing laws and how they existed for hundreds of years for these Western ranchers (it is a different ballgame than my Dad, who owned his land outright and there are fences in the east with plentiful grass which becomes hay). She states Bundy "owns" the land or easement with the water/river running through it, which, one would think, would be valuable in a desert. That river is certainly what those poor cows were running to after finally freed.

Which brings up one weird point: where is PETA? Baby cows (as I have called calves since I was a lass also growing up with cattle) were left without mothers due to being helicoptered into a corral. I guess this type of animal abuse does not count. The cattle must be Republicans. As they were born in this country, I think their vote should count vs illegals...

Anyway, the points I am focused on are these:
1) Reid involvement: buying land for profit/ bought cheap/ sold for a lot more
2) Reid's former lackey is now head of BLM...just approved last week!
3) Reid's son, Rory, is a chief dude with the Chinese solar operation. While I read today they pulled back (the Chinese) a year ago from building the Five Billion dollar site...which may or may not be near this ranch...due to lack of interest/clients
4) Back to the water rights: the original 5 billion dollar deal with the Chinese and Reid in Nevada was for energy for CALIFORNIA. I did not memorize the senators who toured with him to China in 2011, but would hazard a guess that any California senator would be on board with this operation.
5) As many have stated, Reid, not a man who inherited wealth, now earns about $190/K/yr in the Senate...yet he is a millionaire who has ties to some in prison for illegal actions. He has also been very "lucky" with many real estate deals, no?

I ask this, in my feeble, aging supermodel, shrinking brain cells: it seems that Reid is heavily involved with giving China money/land/ job opportunities. Where is an American Solar Company? Do any exist? Are there ever bids as in other government contracts? Inquiring minds want to know...I did read that, since 2008 and President Bush's veto for a Chinese take of some Western land, this has existed in several Western states as well as Louisiana: US resources, including oil and gas reserves, given to China. To pay the trillion dollar and growing debt? It sure as heck is not about a desert tortoise at this point.

Seeing as how the desert tortoise has mingled for a long, long time with the cattle and horses grazing by ranchers (Bundy is the last in that county, as the rest were bought out) and Native Americans...and the desert tortoise were rounded up to a "refuge" in Las Vegas and are now being killed due to "budget cuts," well, sir, it ain't about their habitat. It is about water.

Since the early ninties and Clinton/Gore, farmers and ranchers have fought new taxation and rules. As Bundy's family have grazed cattle for over 100 yrs, I can see his point in not suddenly wanting to cut his herd from 1500 cattle to 150 to appease the federal government (taxing him $150/head/yr) and run away with a fraction of what his ranch is worth out of fear. The BLM also, from the little I have read this weekend, control beef pricing. So his neighbors were bought at a pittance and they, apparently, gave in to fear and the realization they could not afford the taxation.

I could be wrong in trying to understand what I have read. Am not citing links as this is what I read. I do know the Sagebrush Rebellion goes back to the early nineties when this started. And Cliven Bundy is one of the few who is hanging on to his inheritance.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 01:50 PM (baL2B)

257 This episode is a direct result of American "enabeling laws" being used by bureaucrats to crush an individual's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Such laws (in this case framed around a supposedly endangered tortoise) are the result of a bloated national government that enriches politicians and their cronies, all while pushing the far-left agenda.

The Bundys may not be able to win in court because of the political biases of  certain federal judges who will twist the law to justify any decision in favor of their powerful masters. Cliven Bundy, however, has certainly prevailed in the court of public opinion. Such an outcome can't be good for the Harry Reids of the world, especially in an election year, hence the current federal retreat.

The real problem is that voters' memories are short and American journalism is now just another propaganda tool for the power-elite. If the MSM memory hole enables the Left to triumph in the next election cycle, look for many more such stand-offs, and, eventually, serious bloodshed.

Posted by: PPs43 at April 14, 2014 01:52 PM (gs8t9)

258 I should remind you all that this is the same Federal Government that somehow managed to lose money selling booze and woo woo when they took over the Mustang Ranch in NV. Let that sink in for a minute.

Posted by: navybrat at April 14, 2014 01:54 PM (JgC5a)

259 We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said.
**************
Pretty sure Kornze has been advised.

I have difficulty believing that Harry Reid is not up to his eyeballs in this. Equally sure that once you work for Harry Reid you always work for Harry Reid.

Posted by: gracepmc at April 14, 2014 01:55 PM (rznx3)

260 JeffersonTeaParty asks an excellent question a few comments back. The BLM says Bundy owes it money, and instead of armed force why didn't the BLM just ask a court for a lien? A lot easier and more standard way to collect a debt. I just can't believe this "owns 85%" of the state stuff. Imagine if the Federal government owned 85% of New Jersey, or Pennsylvania. The people would just not tolerate that ownership. It's crazy. It should end. Ted Cruz, this is a good issue and I hope you'll take it up.

Posted by: MTF at April 14, 2014 01:55 PM (F58x4)

261 I am afraid that it will be an incident such as this that is going to set spark to fire.  There is a reason that our government is stocking up huge amounts of ammo.

Maybe this is what has to happen to shake out the snakes amongst us.  Whatever it looks like it won't be pretty.

Posted by: Cheri at April 14, 2014 01:59 PM (VDGzf)

262 Bundy also doesn't brand a lot of the cattle right away, so the feds have to do per cow surveillance, hiding in the hills with the tarantulas running weeks long stake out on the cow to prove whose they are. Bundy is just toying with these fascist fools.

Posted by: People Corporation at April 14, 2014 02:02 PM (pf+hU)

263 Let's see who gets rich coming out of this (if it ever comes to light). Posted by: Seamus M. at April 14, 2014 05:37 PM (MKpBT) You know, you might be on to something there. Maybe if an enterprising writer started connecting money trails from corporations and big campaign donors to specific "unexpectedly" rich politicians, there might be some sort of interconnection there that would be interesting to people. Nah, sounds like crazy talk and it would require hard work and thinking and stuff!

Posted by: Hrothgar at April 14, 2014 02:07 PM (o3MSL)

264 I read "The Blaze" article last night (the one in the morning dump here) and do not agree with their assessment. For one thing, the writer is not there on the ground -- he relies on "Google maps". Whereas, Jones (hate to give him credit here) actually had a guy there on the ground reporting live.

I'll stick with  Dana Loesch on this, not "The Blaze".

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at April 14, 2014 02:08 PM (KL49F)

265 Posted by: gracepmc at April 14, 2014 05:55 PM (rznx3)

And further it occurs to me that if Reid is confident enough to go forward with this then whoever needed to be bought off has been bought off.

Posted by: gracepmc at April 14, 2014 02:08 PM (rznx3)

266 Bundy Ranch since 1870 October 31, 1864 (36th) Nevada became a State. The Territory of Nevada was an organized incorporated territory of the United States that existed from March 2, 1861, until October 31, 1864, when it was admitted to the Union as the State of Nevada. Prior to the creation of the Nevada Territory, the area was part of western Utah Territory and was known as Washoe, after the native Washoe people. Bundy claims his herd of roughly 900 cattle have grazed on the land along the riverbed near Bunkerville, 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas, since 1870 and threatened a "range war" against the BLM on the Bundy Ranch website after one of his sons was arrested while protesting the removal of the cattle. "I have no contract with the United States government," Bundy said. "I was paying grazing fees for management and that's what BLM was supposed to be, land managers and they were managing my ranch out of business, so I refused to pay." ABC News http://tinyurl.com/ox24g2c "Cliven Bundy’s problem isn’t that he didn’t pay — he did — or that his cattle bother tortoises — they don’t — it’s that he’s not a Reid donor." Dana Loesch, Fox News http://tinyurl.com/klz2ope and Allan West Republic http://tinyurl.com/lzpjkqr Loesch: *UPDATE: Those who say Bundy is a “deadbeat” are making inaccurate claims. Bundy has in fact paid fees to Clark County, Nevada in an arrangement pre-dating the BLM. The BLM arrived much later, changed the details of the setup without consulting with Bundy — or any other rancher — and then began systematically driving out cattle and ranchers. Bundy refused to pay BLM, especially after they demanded he reduce his heard’s head count down to a level that would not sustain his ranch. Bundy OWNS the water and forage rights to this land. He paid for these rights. He built fences, established water ways, and constructed roads with his own money, with the approval of Nevada and BLM. When BLM started using his fees to run him off the land and harassing him, he ceased paying. So should BLM reimburse him for managing the land and for the confiscation of his water and forage rights? **One last thought: For those conservatives saying that since BLM arrived in the late 90s, it’s the law now, well, so is Obamacare. From "The Last Refuge" http://tinyurl.com/k4d535a My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these monies against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penance he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM and tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the endangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortoise. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now they’re desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the Constitution of the United States of America. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/04/09/the-tinderbox-bundy-ranch-in-clarke-county-nevada/

Posted by: panzernashorn at April 14, 2014 02:09 PM (/vO0r)

267 "I just can't believe this "owns 85%" of the state stuff. Imagine if the Federal government owned 85% of New Jersey, or Pennsylvania. The people would just not tolerate that ownership. It's crazy. " Look at Nevada on the satellite view of Google maps. It is waterless rock. I mentioned the Homestead Act. Anybody could have gone to that 85% and just lived on it for 5 years and owned it. They didn't choose to. Go look at youtube video of the PEPCON explosion. Rocket fuel depository, surrounded by dirt and rock. Unless you're proposing per capita land distribution as a moral right, there's nothing wrong with 85% of desert belonging to no private investor.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 02:10 PM (5xmd7)

268 Since her name has come up I'll note that Dana Loesch is a moderately attractive young lady.

Somewhat. A little bit. A smidgeon. Just a tad....

Posted by: Holy smokes! at April 14, 2014 02:12 PM (IVgIK)

269 I don't care if the rancher was wrong or right, the citizenry has had enough and put the jackboots in their place for now. If you don't own a firearm you are a sucker.

Posted by: Beyond Disgusted at April 14, 2014 02:12 PM (thLL8)

270
>>>Unless you're proposing per capita land distribution as a moral right, there's nothing wrong with 85% of desert belonging to no private investor.


Bullshit. The land should belong to the people. If the Feds are not actively using it, they should auction it off to the citizenry.

Posted by: Holy smokes! at April 14, 2014 02:13 PM (IVgIK)

271 cough

Posted by: typo dynamofo at April 14, 2014 02:14 PM (IVgIK)

272 269- This!

Posted by: typo dynamofo at April 14, 2014 02:15 PM (IVgIK)

273
Laughable.  Little Dirty Hairy lecturing on the law??  Half of Congress should be doing time with Dingy being bent over a sink with his boyfriend Bruce giving it to him good.

Posted by: Cheri at April 14, 2014 02:17 PM (VDGzf)

274 Harry Reid is the Director of NAMBLA -- Nevada-American Management Bureau of Land Assets.

What -- does that acronym have another meaning too?

Oh Zombie.  Gosh you make me larf.

Posted by: Mister Christopher at April 14, 2014 02:21 PM (oyyYi)

275 249 They were just starting the interview with Bundy on Beck this morning when the local station broke in with some asinine breaking news about a corrupt local sheriff, in other words normal news in this area. The reporter kept droning on about it for 20 minutes, until Beck was just saying goodbye to Bundy. Almost like someone doesn't want to hear anything about this. I called the station immediately and told them local corruption was baloney as far as breaking news.

Posted by: Bill sometimes bill from Canada at April 14, 2014 05:35 PM (0zZxy)


If you wanted to listen to it, Beck posts his radio show as free podcasts now. So you could always catch what you missed by downloading it from the iTunes.

Posted by: LizLem at April 14, 2014 02:23 PM (yRwC8)

276 No fight against the government is ever over until the government wins.

Posted by: JohnJ at April 14, 2014 02:24 PM (TF/YA)

277 >>Bullshit. The land should belong to the people. If the Feds are not actively using it, they should auction it off to the citizenry. Posted by: Holy smokes! at April 14, 2014 06:13 PM (IVgIK) << And if Bundy can't outbid a Japanese millionaire, then what?

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 02:27 PM (5xmd7)

278 I'll stand by my previous comments ... this rancher wants a free ride. And I'll stand by this comment ... I'm pleased that this many people rallied around such an imperfect cause. If the Fed keeps pushing, they'll find a better cause to rally 'round.

Posted by: ScoggDog at April 14, 2014 02:29 PM (VdBU2)

279 No fight against the government is ever over until the government wins. Posted by: JohnJ at April 14, 2014 06:24 PM (TF/YA) They are helped in this immeasurably because they get to use your own money against you, for as long as it takes!

Posted by: Hrothgar at April 14, 2014 02:37 PM (o3MSL)

280 Did you not see the word,"citizenry"?

One might also expect that where locals have made improvements as the ranchers have, they might be afforded right of first refusal.

However it is done, it is unseemly to have the Feds own land without a direct national purpose- Military bases, strategic energy reserves etc.

Simple takings to preserve areas were once palatable when the government did not view humans as vermin to be forced out. Now that  that is no longer the case there needs to be push back.


Posted by: typo dynamofo at April 14, 2014 02:38 PM (IVgIK)

281

The Desert Tortoise is not on the 'endangered species' list.

 

It has only ever been classified as a 'threatened species'.

Which is a nebulous designation...and open to interpretation.

 

So when the Clinton administration claimed that as a reason to start pushing ranchers off of the Open Range...it was bogus.

 

There is a lot more going on here behind the scenes that we don't know about yet.

 

This isn't over.

Posted by: wheatie at April 14, 2014 02:41 PM (FWbLS)

282 I blame the EPA as much as greed-Reid.

When Gore was runnin' for president they used to flood rivers so his kayak did not sink and made a pretty photo. Or flood backdrops so it looked all purdy for his speechifying (to the tune of $56K/day of water). I read this article by J. Zane Walley about this. Clinton/Gore and this "endangered" tortoise deal started in late to mid 90's.

Today they are euthanizing the tortoise due to budget cuts (aka rascally Republicans are killing the desert tortoise they caputred against their will and enclosed in Vegas). I mean, who wants to live in Vegas when you can live in the desert and hide from some cows when you need to?

If they start protecting the Palmetto Bug in Floriduh I am going to raise some hell.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 02:42 PM (baL2B)

283 “Well, it’s not over,” he (Reid) told Reno’s KRNV. “We can’t have an American people that violate the law and just walk away from it, so it’s not over.” "Only us Democrats can do that.", Reid finished.

Posted by: T. at April 14, 2014 02:43 PM (lf+5l)

284 I liked thatch's comment above .If nothing else the Bundy incident has shown the feds that the people still have the spirit to resist . To the knife , if necessary .

Posted by: awkward davies at April 14, 2014 02:43 PM (whqez)

285 I've met quite a few BLM rangers up here in the PNW, most are retards that couldn't find a real job if they tried. Their big accomplishment is locking gates to keep people out of public land. Fuck them all.

Posted by: Beyond Disgusted at April 14, 2014 02:45 PM (thLL8)

286 I know that Bundy claims an easement (a legal right to use land that runs with the land), but I have no idea what grounds he has for claiming this Adverse possession? IANAL and have not looked into the facts, but if his family has been grazing cattle on the land for that long and has not been made to stop, that seems to meet at least two of the elements of adverse possession.

Posted by: Simon Jester at April 14, 2014 02:45 PM (O5Wu6)

287 278 I'll stand by my previous comments ... this rancher wants a free ride.


And I'll stand by this comment ... I'm pleased that this many people rallied around such an imperfect cause.


If the Fed keeps pushing, they'll find a better cause to rally 'round.

Posted by: ScoggDog at April 14, 2014 06:29 PM (VdBU2)


Just want to be clear: he pays his dues to county and state of Nevada, from what I have read. Refused in 90's to pay feds as they were wanting to tax him, on top of other grazing fees, $150/head...which is a pretty effective way of forcing cattle ranchers to give up and sell their land, no? They also "told" him and other ranchers to cut down on the numbers of their herds.


As Dana Loesch says, he is not a freeloader.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 02:46 PM (baL2B)

288 As Dana Loesch says, he is not a freeloader. We seem to have plenty of Beck converts all of a sudden. Funny that huh?

Posted by: Beyond Disgusted at April 14, 2014 02:48 PM (thLL8)

289 283 “Well, it’s not over,” he (Reid) told Reno’s KRNV. “We can’t have an American people that violate the law and just walk away from it, so it’s not over.”

"Only us Democrats can do that.", Reid finished.

Posted by: T. at April 14, 2014 06:43 PM (lf+5l)

Yes, and this quote comes from a man who supports ILLEGALS getting amnesty.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at April 14, 2014 02:48 PM (KL49F)

290 Mr. Moo-Moo @ 24-
Mr. Bundy doesn't recognize the soverignty (sp) of the US government? WTF? Hell, a lot of us here don't do that crazy shite. 10th Amendment.

Posted by: Erowmero at April 14, 2014 02:48 PM (1gcFZ)

291 BLM moved in and started changing the terms of the leases, with a presumed intent of getting rid of the people leasing the lands, and some feel this is "wrong". Well . . . Let's say somebody buys a building and decides to change the leases as they expire. They want more money and greater restrictions on property use. Naturally the people who were leasing the property are upset. They have been leasing it for years; maybe their family has been leasing it for generations! "Clearly" they are "entitled" to keep their leases and the terms. If only the government would step in with some sort of rent control . . . So . . . What exactly is BLM doing wrong: Being the federal government? Not respecting "rent control for ranchers"? Knowing Harry Reid? I thought he was the bad guy for saying rule of law and market principles are just buzzwords to use in attacking political opponents.

Posted by: Sam at April 14, 2014 02:49 PM (Tgd6y)

292 Erowmero , you still around ? You kin to any Jeffcoats in Swansea ?

Posted by: awkward davies at April 14, 2014 02:50 PM (whqez)

293 286 I know that Bundy claims an easement (a legal right to use land that runs with the land), but I have no idea what grounds he has for claiming this

Adverse possession? IANAL and have not looked into the facts, but if his family has been grazing cattle on the land for that long and has not been made to stop, that seems to meet at least two of the elements of adverse possession.

Posted by: Simon Jester at April 14, 2014 06:45 PM (O5Wu6)


I have no freaking idea how law works state to state, but my understanding is that if you don't have proper surveys in place for your lots, after seven or so years, the land becomes that of your neighbor.


I guess, in the olde West, folks who settled had grazing rights. Land was passed on. No questions (I mean, I would not be too keen to own some of that land, would you?). Then, in 90's, the feds determined they had the right to add taxes and/or seize land. It was not immediate, as in they are building a highway, but if you were forced to pay an additional tax, I think that would give you pause and maybe sell, which is (from what I have read) what the 50 or so other ranchers in that county did. In addition, as of now, BLM controls the price of beef and who can buy beef with Bundy brand...so, let's just say, he wants to sell the beef in Utah and can't. This will force him to sell it cheaper elsewhere as he will have to travel further. I have just glanced at this, but think the Utah issue is new of them controlling the price of beef as another way to stick it to Bundy. I welcome corrections if I am wrong, as that adds another level of control of the BLM.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 02:53 PM (baL2B)

294 Bundy said. "I was paying grazing fees for management and that's what BLM was supposed to be, land managers and they were managing my ranch out of business, so I refused to pay." ABC News http://tinyurl.com/ox24g2c Yeah, that's the part that gets me, he was paying and then something happened, can't find anywhere what exactly that something was except for this reference, but something happened and writing him off as a freeloader seems like nonsense to me. And govt doesn't put this much effort into something unless some pols or their cronies benefit.

Posted by: booger at April 14, 2014 02:55 PM (xRDdL)

295 We seem to have plenty of Beck converts all of a sudden. Funny that huh?

Posted by: Beyond Disgusted at April 14, 2014 06:48 PM (thLL


I don't know about Beck, but think Dana was originally found by Andrew Breitbart. Right? xoxo

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 02:55 PM (baL2B)

296 "Did you not see the word,"citizenry"? I didn't actually. "One might also expect that where locals have made improvements as the ranchers have, they might be afforded right of first refusal." Whoa. That is totally incompatible with your notion of an auction. "Bundy's range, what am I bid?" "500!" "500 to the fellow from New York...what am I bid...what am I bid? Mr. Bundy? going once...going twice...SOLD! OK Mr. Bundy, you got right of first refusal. $500." "I'll take it!" However it is done, it is unseemly to have the Feds own land without a direct national purpose- Military bases, strategic energy reserves etc.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 02:56 PM (5xmd7)

297 "However it is done, it is unseemly to have the Feds own land without a direct national purpose- Military bases, strategic energy reserves etc. " Then we have been a damn unseemly country since 1848. And until and unless you persuade a majority of America to that point of view, you'll have to allow us to continue with the rude measures we've inherited.

Posted by: Chris_Balsz at April 14, 2014 02:58 PM (5xmd7)

298 How about assuming that all land and the rights to use it are the sole province of the Federal Government? Doesn't that strike anyone not wearing a protective helmet at this moment as an ass-tarded position?

Posted by: Lincolntf at April 14, 2014 03:00 PM (ZshNr)

299 288 We seem to have plenty of Beck converts all of a sudden. Funny that huh? I'm no seminar poster. I've been here a while. And hey - I think Beck's changed his tune precisely to get back in the mainstream, for what it's worth. And I'll say it again. I'm happy with the outcome. Imagine what happens when a better cause pops up.

Posted by: ScoggDog at April 14, 2014 03:00 PM (VdBU2)

300 The turtle only seems to be threatened by being seen by a BLM employee with a gun.

Posted by: People Corporation at April 14, 2014 03:04 PM (pf+hU)

301 Gerald O'Hara: "...land is the only thing in the world worth workin' for, worth fightin' for, worth dyin' for, because it's the only thing that lasts."

http://tinyurl.com/yk454gq

True, then. True now.

Posted by: thatcrazyjerseyguy at April 14, 2014 03:10 PM (tAoev)

302

298 How about assuming that all land and the rights to use it are the sole province of the Federal Government? Doesn't that strike anyone not wearing a protective helmet at this moment as an ass-tarded position?

 

----------

 

Remember when Barky said..."You didn't build that"?

 

That was a very revealing remark, in that it is a glimpse at the overall outlook of this administration.

 

I still think there is a lot more going on here that we don't know about yet.

Posted by: wheatie at April 14, 2014 03:11 PM (FWbLS)

303

294...Yeah, that's the part that gets me, he was paying and then something happened, can't find anywhere what exactly that something was except for this reference, but something happened and writing him off as a freeloader seems like nonsense to me. And govt doesn't put this much effort into something unless some pols or their cronies benefit.

 

---------

 

As far as I can tell...that "something" that happened, was when the BLM relocated a designated 'protected turtle zone' to the area where Bundy had grazing rights.

 

The BLM notified him that he had to reduce his herd.

 

Bundy has been piping water into the area where his cattle has been grazing.

It's desert.

He's laid down water lines for 6 miles or more, establishing watering places.

 

I watched a video on his Youtube channel about this.

It shows green areas that have sprouted up over his pipelines.

The mesquite and other brush has flourished.

 

He also shows turtle holes that have been built near his water sources.

So, it anything...Bundy's husbandry of the land has benefited the Desert Tortoise much more than anything that the BLM has done.

 

Posted by: wheatie at April 14, 2014 03:20 PM (FWbLS)

304 34 Let me sum up the comments in advance Blah blah thug cops Blah blah cops are thugs Blah blah we hate those thug cops Posted by: Navycopjoe at April 14, 2014 04:17 PM (sCbam) Navycopjoe: That BLM SWAT team, they're not cops.

Posted by: theCork at April 14, 2014 03:21 PM (hbAdE)

305 ...*where his cattle herd has been grazing.

Posted by: wheatie at April 14, 2014 03:21 PM (FWbLS)

306 Navycopjoe: That BLM SWAT team, they're not cops. Real cops would have pulled the trigger days ago. I see it al the time on the nightly news. So, the protestors had that going for them.

Posted by: Beyond Disgusted at April 14, 2014 03:25 PM (thLL8)

307 Just caught a little of FOX on the subject. The little I saw of Dana Perino, she was basically observant that the MSM were treating the Bundy family like ginormous farmer types (aka rednecks) vs edumacated attorneys. I did not see entire portion, but, of course, Beckle said he was an outlaw and not paying taxes. You see, fellas, this is the media's message: he is an outlaw, he does not pay his fees...when the fees he has paid were to the county and state until the tortoise issue (or so I have read, starting in 90's).

Ok. Now just watched the panel, which, unfortunately, did not have my sweetheart Stephen F. Hayes, who, hold yer horses, I need to pause and fan myself....ok. Where was I? Oh, yes...panel tonight: Tucker, A.B., and the great Juan, parrot of WH. We know where he stands, and he managed to insert some left-wing hooha into subject and yada. A.B. sort of got some things right. Tucker made a few points, and, at least, pointed the press onto investigating Reid. Bret was the most factual, but kept saying Bundy lost in court three times. Correct. I have read that Reid rewarded one of the judges in one of the settlements with another job. Oh, well!


The time has come when I believe, or rarely believe, any "news." The "news" wants you to think of this man as an outlaw. I don't think he is. I think he may be fighting against a flood he cannot  control, and under pressure, 50 or more of his fellow ranchers abandoned and gave way. The feds may own the land...so do they own your land? Ok, if they want to build a highway, they will pay eminent domain. But this has been different.


So, you sit in your humble home, paying the monthly mortgage (unlike the illegals in the foreclosure in your neighborhood). You pay state and county taxes for your water, sewer, etc, yada. Now the feds want to tack on an extra "energy" tax to your AC use (and, by golly, they will draw blood on this one from me as I think of Stephen F. Hayes). They monitor your AC, and if you don't lower it to 80 degrees on a 100 degree humid night, you pay extra!

I think that is what Bundy faced...he paid what he and ancestors always paid. But then the tortoise and Clinton/Gore stuck their head in the desert and demanded an extra $150/head on your cows. Then the price of beef went down. What would you do? Sell? Or fight, while paying your normal grazing fee, while the land stayed the same (no eminent domain), waiting for the Chinese and Reid to profit.


The only person I trust is Dana Loesch on the issue, as she does appear to understand the West's grazing law. xoxo bite moi.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 03:32 PM (baL2B)

308 Oh! Heard tonight that the EPA is now fighting ole Harry that the solar idea is adverse to the desert tortoise! It appears (from comment above) that the tortoise seems to side with Bundy and like his water diversion.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky, Bossy Redneck Queen at April 14, 2014 03:33 PM (baL2B)

309 Posted by: wheatie at April 14, 2014 07:20 PM (FWbLS) Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me too.

Posted by: booger at April 14, 2014 03:40 PM (xRDdL)

310 http://tinyurl.com/mr7mjsv mynews4.com Senator Reid: "It ain't over." until the fat lady sings...Hillary!!! bombast

Posted by: panzernashorn at April 14, 2014 03:44 PM (/vO0r)

311 Everything I've read convinces me that Bundy is right and the government is trying to run him off his land, just as it has the other ranchers who used to live in the area. It most likely has to do with politicians trying to enrich themselves and their cronies. We were very lucky on Saturday. As a photo at Sipsey Street Irregulars said, "The Second American Revolution almost started today". But our luck will not hold out forever. As the federal government becomes increasingly lawless, illegitimate, and arrogant, anger among liberty-loving citizens continues to build and build. This country is a powderkeg just waiting for a spark. The actual event that sets it off might even be trivial or stupid, but afterwards, none of that will matter. Not a single person in Europe in 1914 expected that the assassination of an Austrian archduke would lead to such a conflagration.

Posted by: rickl at April 14, 2014 03:52 PM (sdi6R)

312 159 "We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over," Reid said." 

How careful he was to include "American."
I am late, but ette this is my vote for Comment of the Year.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at April 14, 2014 04:39 PM (QCo5R)

313 #229 HAS A REALLY GOOD POINT. The feds threatened to shoot and the locals didn't back down one bit, matter of fact they got right in their faces and told them to F@ck off. Conservatives need to take that lesson and learn from it.
We need to organize a mass civil disobedience in California. We need to turn the water back on and stand there with or guns and freaking dare the Feds to do something.

We need to show up at the homes of the two or three federal judges who authorized the raid on the ranch and let them know in no uncertain terms to knock it off.

We need to show up at the homes of the county officials in Colorado who are trying to use emanate domain to take that couples cabin and let them know that that kind of crap doesn't fly any more.

And we need to do it quickly before the feds get their feet back under them. We need to punch them in the nose hard. 

Posted by: southdakotaboy at April 14, 2014 04:47 PM (yh4lQ)

314 In effect Reid is saying illegals shouldn't be allowed to become citizens.

Posted by: Mozam at April 14, 2014 05:06 PM (A5oSi)

315 Don't you find it interesting that the Feds decide to confiscate his cattle when cattle prices hit a 27 year high? And I don't care what you say about how the Feds should be able to own most of a state. If they do, it's a territory. I've witness the nonsense of the Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Act, where you are even restricted to the color of paint you can use on your house in some areas. If you have unelected bureaucrats in charge, you have no control over them. They behave like petty dictators.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at April 14, 2014 05:58 PM (Lqy/e)

316 When it is time to make a stand, the weak, shallow and superficial of the Internet, always find themselves hiding behind the political correctness page count index...Unjust BLM rules and regulations for Bundy...fuck Bundy 'It`s the Law!' Unjust Obamacare rules and regulations...guess what..."It`s the damn LAW"...pay your 10,000 deductible, your 10,000 co-pay and SHUT THE FUCK UP

Posted by: Dr. NO NO at April 14, 2014 06:28 PM (yd7wR)

317 "My sympathies were with the citizens and against the government, but this seemed to be too dangerous a thing to go by pure sympathies and gut-instincts." Considering the dishonesty in which so many government agencies use in violating citizen rights, sympathy and instinct are perfectly fine to judge the situation by. You can not follow he rules when "playing" with those that cheat

Posted by: just passin by at April 14, 2014 08:30 PM (A9KzJ)

318 Its been instructive listening to my "intelligent" and "enlightened" liberal friends on Facebook. One guy even said Bundy had it coming for his anti-obama rhetoric.

I have fun playing "who goes Nazi?", I just wish my liberal friends wouldn't make it so easy.

Posted by: Fen at April 14, 2014 09:43 PM (cYpak)

319 Well, it was pretty far from the East Coast, which we ALL KNOW is the cultural center of the universe.  Just you wait until all those nose pickin, Nascar watchin, cousin pumpin rednex weaponize the food.  No more partially hydrogenated microwavable convienient suppers for you.  Who rule BarterTown?

Posted by: Todd Bridges, first to go bad, last to go down at April 15, 2014 06:49 AM (3yfGn)

320 "Did Bundy pay fair market price? Ever?" As I understand, his grandfather settled and improved the land while Nevada was still a territory. The family tried to keep abiding by the laws, while those laws, and the "managing authorities" (territorial, then state, then federal) who were to receive payments for "ensuring compliance" with those laws, got revised, altered, and rejiggered over the decades. The most recent round of restrictions was their bridge-too-far, and they dug in their heels. Call me a foolish idealist, but I think that --at some point-- your family's land should actually *BE* your family's land; the alphabet-soup agencies who claim THEY have the right to tell you what do do and how to do it should be told to cease and desist. Or, The Glorious State should just abolish the concept of private property. Maybe that's where this whole hullaballoo is leading.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at April 15, 2014 12:22 PM (S+TVw)

321 Posted by: torquewrench at April 14, 2014 04:55 PM (noWW6) " Easterners who support the federal death grip on Western land say that the reason is "conservation", but if that's so, why is such a far smaller percentage of land in their own Eastern states set aside for conservation purposes relative to what is set aside in the West? " - - - - - - Want to know what they envision? See the map at the bottom of this page: (from Wildlands Network org // Western Wildway ) http://tinyurl.com/l7njz3y You can BET that the Bundy siege is *not* over yet.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at April 15, 2014 02:05 PM (S+TVw)

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