1 Really?  First??

2 re-testing

3 They should have conspired with the government instead. eBook rebates to stimulate the economy.

4 Apples and oranges. (That's all I've got.  Need coffee.)

5 generally, the government doesn't go after people for offering the public lower prices

Google "minimum markup law."

6

They should have conspired with the government instead. eBook rebates to stimulate the economy.

 

We should have destroyed Apple to stimulate the economy!

7

Or get invaded by aliens!

 

*Licks window*

8 As long as the authors don't get the money, that's the important thing. It's much better seeing Apple and publishing houses getting more rather than the actual creative end.

9 so what happens then?

10 If my vagina was an e-book,  the pages would still be all musty and shit.

11

Now that it's the top sidebar item, I don't feel bad about going OT.

 

It's not just "workplace paranoia" but actual Soviet-styled  policing.  The plan is to criminally punish people for not reporting other people.  That runs against hundreds of years of Common Law, in addition to the US Const. 

 

We are the change we've been waiting for, and that's to old school Eastern Bloc crap  which failed thirty years ago, or in sum "tyranny".    

12 8 As long as the authors don't get the money, that's the important thing. It's much better seeing Apple and publishing houses getting more rather than the actual creative end.

Posted by: zsasz at July 10, 2013 12:16 PM (MMC8r)

 

I bet their pricing models for ebooks still includes a loss for damaged goods during shipping.

13 I figured they would because they were in-fact guilty as hell/

14 So, will we see a return to Amazon's lower price points?  This was the reason I bought a Kindle to begin with. That and portability when relocating hither and yon. 

15 Why would anyone want an E-book when amazon is way cheaper?

16 My understanding of the Amazon "fixing" was that it was the publishers who dictated the price.  Most of the publishers already reached a settlement.  One wonders why a few like Apple tried to fight it.

17 or tyrrany.  Egad.  Tranny, tyrrany, not the same thing.    I blame Tea Party fingers.  

18 Apple, run by Democrats. Just sayin'.

19 Appllllle!.........you vely bad boy! I got nuthin. See y'all after the 100.

20 8 As long as the authors don't get the money, that's the important thing. It's much better seeing Apple and publishing houses getting more rather than the actual creative end. Posted by: zsasz at July 10, 2013 12:16 PM (MMC8r) I don't know how E-books works but amazon is me 70% them 30%.

21 we are living under tranny tryrrany

22 If Apple was selling e-books that were actually vaginas trained to work as an armed neighborhood watch volunteers,  I'd buy one.

23 we are living under tranny tryrrany Posted by: thunderb at July 10, 2013 12:20 PM (zOTsN) Well, are they post op trannys?

24 Adam: "Eve made me do it.."
Eve: "The serpent made me do it.."
Serpent: " Heh, heh...."

25 If my iPad were a vagina, I'd be amazed at how cooter picks up fingerprints.

26 The proof on the Amazon thing was the note they put on the books which set "price set by publisher".  Amazon is really a reseller.  They charge what ever the seller tells them to charge.

27 It's not just "workplace paranoia" but actual Soviet-styled policing.

It's virtually unenforceable.  You can't prove what I knew about someone else's activity without my participation.  Those policies already exist without the "you will be punished unless you rat out your cubicle mate" provision.  Security is everyone's responsibility and all that stuff. 

28 I have many leather-bound books and my home smells of rich mahogany. 

29 But guys, the ipad has that nifty page turning graphic and stuff! Totally worth the extra cost.

30 We are the change we've been waiting for, and that's to old school Eastern Bloc crap which failedthirty years ago, or in sum "tyranny". I can't wait for the new Komsomol.

31 Life's been going downhill ever since we bit the Apple and gained the knowledge of good and evil.

32 generally, the government doesn't go after people for offering the public lower prices And yet...

33 I never understood why the wholesale model made any sense for ebooks. With paper books, Amazon is buying a bunch of books from the publisher and storing them in a warehouse until such time as a customer buys them from Amazon. With ebooks, Amazon isn’t doing anything like that: the publisher gives them one copy of the book, and then Amazon sells that copy (possibly adding some marker/copy protection at the point of sale) over and over. The warehouse model that Amazon had been using seemed to me at the time to be a way of forcing an old business model that no longer fits. The “agency” model that apparently counts as price-fixing is the way most things work digitally nowadays. It’s how software is priced on Apple’s app store; it’s how self-published books are priced on Lulu.com and I think most similar sites. The distribution method is just a service that the publisher uses, and so the publisher gets to set the prices.

34 Workplace paranoia: "Has ordered federal employees report suspicious actions of colleagues" Something tells me Obama & Holder didn't think this through.

35 Love a lot of Apple products but the fact remains that they are evil in a lot of ways. Their hipster cred buys them a shield behind which to pull stunts that would get other companies slapped down.

36 Yes, but it's okay, because Al Gore is on the board and was able to tie the whole thing into climate change and carbon indulgences.  Wingnut.

37 we are living under tranny tryrrany

Posted by: thunderb at July 10, 2013 12:20 PM (zOTsN)

 

I know what you mean.  But the same people are Islamophilic.  So this cannot end well.   Let them marry and then kill them?  The middle ground is fraught with difficult choices.  

38 If my e-reader was a vagina,  I'd probably just play games and stuff on it.

39 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

40 Burn it down. Scatter the stones. Salt the earth where it stood.

41 It's not just "workplace paranoia" but actual Soviet-styled policing.

***

Yeah, we've gone all Hitlerjugend. 

42

Amazon's "price fixing," such as it was, was to sell e-books at a loss.  The publishers were still getting their money, only that the distribution agreement didn't forbid Amazon from selling below MSRP.

 

Now the distribution agreements have changed, and turns out Apple was the driving force behind it since *they* didn't want to sell at a loss to be competitive with Amazon. 

 

As an aside, it's not unusual for distribution agreements to forbid a retailer from selling a product at a discount.  General Cigar, for instance, has a few brands they don't want discounted because that would detract from the premium image of the brand.  However, having it coordinated in this fashion and across the board is definitely slimy.

43 If my iPod were a vagina, it would never leave my pants pocket.

44 The Amazon model is the current wave.  FoxB was talking about it yesterday Amazon vs Barns and Nobel which is going belly-up everyday.

45 * Just speculating here, as I didn't watch the trial closely, but I think Amazon's "price-fixing" was different in two ways. First, Amazon used market leverage to push the price down; generally, the government doesn't go after people for offering the public lower prices (unless this is part of some sort of dumping scheme).


Standard Oil got dinged as a monopoly when
1.)  They were losing market share and had about 60% market share at the time of the judgement. 
2.)  As a "monopoly", they had been reducing oil prices to consumers

"anti-monopoly" laws are more of a business shakedown than a consumer protection. 

46

@27

It's virtually unenforceable. You can't prove what I knew about someone else's activity without my participation.

 

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---  You can prove that someone had access to the facts or "should have known" based on their position.    Imputed knowledge can be enough legally. 

47 so confused......

48 The only thing I really understand about this is that a) Apple fanbois Suck and b) they're making me pay more for e-books. Without actually understanding how the two models work, I can't really say much about either. But I will stand by those two original conclusions.

49 Amazon's "price fixing," such as it was, was to sell e-books at a loss. The publishers were still getting their money, only that the distribution agreement didn't forbid Amazon from selling below MSRP. 

Posted by: @JohnTant at July 10, 2013 12:25 PM (eytER)

I don't believe Amazon loses money "per unit".   Lower take of profit than they could be getting?  Sure - but in a way that improves their business (increased buy-in for their store).  

50 I do not believe Amazon sells its Kindle books at a loss.  They may when they do the specials for .99 but those are only temporary. 


I think they have been making a fortune off those books.  The average new e-book on Amazon is $12.  About $5 of that goes to the writer, a few dollars to the publisher, and the rest to Amazon.

51

Apple fixes prices?  I'm shocked.  Shocked!

 

[Aide]:  Your winnings, sir.

52 I don't buy ebooks because I only ever read at home. It's gotta be nice to have your library with you on one device but I like physical copies of books sitting on my physical shelves.
------------------

Portability is a big plus for reference texts, but otherwise, no. I'm not ready for a 'book' that requires a battery. I treasure the books passed down by my grandmother and grandfather. When I hold and read a book inscribed by them, the experience is very different from an LCD screen and a mass of digital ones and zeros. Similarly, handwritten letters are vastly different than emails. Anytime I receive a 'Egreeting', what it says to me is "I knew that I ought to send something, but I didn't care enough to actually invest any effort."

53 Workplace paranoia: "Has ordered federal employees report suspicious actions of colleagues"


Something tells me Obama & Holder didn't think this through. Posted by: rickb223


I see what you did there. *golf clap*

54 O/T: Breaking News: Texas House approves abortion bill. Senate to consider the measure on Thursday.

55 Amazon's "price fixing," such as it was, was to sell e-books at a loss. Err... which Brick and Mortar stores do every day. So, yes, this was about Apple *not* wanting to sell at a loss. What I don't understand is why the publishing houses care. They get their $-per-copy either way, why does it matter if the retailer decides to take a bath?

56 Apple would be vilified worse than WalMart if they donated to Republicans.

Once Bill Clinton showed Microsoft he can and will sue the everliving shit out of them for what ever he wants--legal or not--unless they played ball, Microsoft has fallen out of the Two-Minutes of Hate rotation.

57 I meant lower take of profit per book - with increased sales at a lower price point, they may have increased overall profits.  

(The publishers don't seem interested in pursuing that optimal profit price point due to their desire to not compete with their "real" book business) 

58 If my Kindle were a vagina, I'd be pissed it wasn't Braille.

59 They did this with books the same way they did with itunes. Big federal lawsuit that will destroy Apple - the way they did Microsoft - on its way, no doubt.

60 If Sandra Fluke's vagina was an e-reader,  I wouldn't touch it with your stylus.

61 Only solution is to STRING UP THE LAWYERS!

62 If my vagina were a book, the flaps would be creased and dog-earred.

63 Workplace paranoia: "Has ordered federal employees report suspicious actions of colleagues"
-------------------------

Okay..., I wasn't going to say anything..., but Douglas Shulman seems to have been visiting the White House a lot..., but no one seems to know why he is here. I am rather suspicious, and I think it bears checking out.

64 If my vagina were an E-book, it would be all corrupted and virus ridden.

65   What I don't understand is why the publishing houses care. They get their $-per-copy either way, why does it matter if the retailer decides to take a bath? 
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 10, 2013 12:30 PM (/PCJa)

Trying to preserve some nebulous "perception of value" value. 

Think of the marketing label "organic" - that can in some cases entice consumers to pay 2x or more for the product. 

Some people buy books for fashion, not content, and those are the people publishers are trying to preserve as a profitable market segment.   (and I hope it's obvious how fashion can detach market value from "base value")  

66 Big federal lawsuit that will destroy Apple - the way they did Microsoft - on its way, no doubt. What is the point of having a government if you cannot harass large profitable enterprises that employ thousands of people?

67

Well, I am comparing the older business model (Kindle v1) vs. today.

The old agreements had a per unit licensing price Amazon had to pay the publishers, which when everything else is factored in ended up being more than $10/unit. Jeff Bezos had actually said in a conf call that yes, ebooks were being sold at a loss so they could get Kindle off the ground and more popular. 

 

Then about three years ago Amazon announced that publishers were changing their distribution agreements and not allowing discounts from MSRP any longer, meaning the $9.99 model was coming to an end.  Amazon was pissed and yes, put the little blurb on the page that the higher than $10 price was set by the publisher and not them.  So the current model does indeed have publishers not allowing discounts and setting prices, and as this Court found, colluded to do so with Apple coordinating the whole thing.

 

Why did the publishers go for the old model?  Because back then there was no reason to think ebooks would take off they way they did.  Other companies tried and other companies died, so publishers viewed a stupid little market with a history of failure as not worth their time to mess with too much...they were making their margins on the ebooks and figured they'd take some easy money from Amazon before Bezos abandoned the effort.  Thing is, they miscalculated.  No wonder Apple found them a willing audience to get out from those agreements.  The publishers, on their part, needed Apple since it was in a position to compete effectively with Amazon.

 

 

68 Douglas Shulman seems to have been visiting the White House a lot...

Getting briefed on how to prepare his 3 envelopes.

69 If our president were a vagina... Oh, wait.

70 at the blaze remember the Saudi guy who had over stayed his visa, was not attending school, had internet jihadhi connections and was burned in the Boston bombings, initially thought a suspect, and got a personal visit by FLOTUS in the hospital when no other "victim" did? guess who was at the White House for the POTUS Fourth of July celebration? come on guess

71

I don't know nothin' about price-fixin' no e-books, but I really hope that ebooks don't make paperbooks more expensive because of lower print runs - while electronic books are fine for fiction that you are only going read once straight through, they are lousy for reference or non-fiction that you want to be able to flip back and forth through.

72 Imputed knowledge can be enough legally.

I would like to see this retroactively applied to Hillary Clinton.

73 The publishers don't seem interested in pursuing that optimal profit price point due to their desire to not compete with their "real" book business That doesn't make... Oohh. Yes it does. Okay, obviously I need more coffee. Here's what I'm guessing. When a publisher produces books, their costs are all up-front. Now, for ebooks, those are fairly negligible. For dead-tree copies, the costs are significantly higher. Production of the books, transportation, etc. Now, the sellers (B&N, Books-A-Million, etc.) do pay for the copies they take, but when they decide a copy won't sell, they rip off the cover- which they send back to the publisher for a refund (they report it as not sold). So, if ebooks are selling like hot-cakes, that's good: but they're probably *not* selling enough to cover the expense of the dead-tree copies. Thus, publishers have a vested interest in selling dead-tree copies (or making more money per ebook). And "publishing on demand" sucks when you're talking about the volume that a real publisher is going to handle.

74 One other thing that I noted and remarked on  back when all the other people "settled".  I have not seen any measurable decrease in e-book prices.

75 New drudge headline: US Taps Undersea Cables Am I surprised? Am I, NSA?

76 thunderb - link?

77 Mike I linky challenged. Its at the Blaze

78 If Monica Lewinsky's mouth was a book,  I guess that makes my pecker a bookmark!  Now where was I...

79 Well, I am comparing the older business model (Kindle v1) vs. today. 
The old agreements had a per unit licensing price Amazon had to pay the publishers, which when everything else is factored in ended up being more than $10/unit. Jeff Bezos had actually said in a conf call that yes, ebooks were being sold at a loss so they could get Kindle off the ground and more popular.

 Posted by: @JohnTant at July 10, 2013 12:36 PM (eytER)

Has that not changed in the time period from the first Kindle to Apple colluding with publishers?  

I can see that Amazon might have started it off that way - but I wouldn't expect it to have still held true at the time Apple sold the new plan to the publishers. 

80 If my iPhone were a vagina Phone calls would be awkward But "AWESOME"!!!! Unless it echoed..😕

81 " 28 I have many leather-bound books and my home smells of rich mahogany " I have piles of tattered paperbacks and my home smells like Valu-Rite and hobo jerky.

82 When have US courts found a defendant guilty of dumping? Japan dumped on American IC and durable goods electronics manufacturers throughout the 1970's without reprisal. Are leftoids deriding Apple for this obviously transparent capitalist transgression or have they rallied 'round the Apple May pole ?

83 Big federal lawsuit that will destroy Apple - the way they did Microsoft - on its way, no doubt. Exactly. Golden gooses do not get killed, they are given immortality in exchange for an ever-escalating 'fair' proportion of the eggs.

84

AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 10, 2013 12:30 PM (/PCJa)

 

Pretty much, though I used the term "price fixing" in quotes because of how Ace characterized Apple's argument.  In reality it wasn't price fixing.  It was penetration pricing, if anything.

 

And it worked like crazy, so of cource the publishers had to do something about it to save their traditional model.  However at that point they couldn't abandon Amazon with its selling power, so they needed to work with another company that had the same clout.

 

And along comes Apple.

85

we are living under tranny tryrrany

Posted by: thunderb at July 10, 2013 12:20 PM (zOTsN)

 

Well, are they post op trannys?

 

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet Palin/Bolton 2016 at July 10, 2013 12:21 PM (XIxXP)

 

Pre-op.  Think Mooch.

86 while electronic books are fine for fiction that you are only going read once straight through, they are lousy for reference or non-fiction that you want to be able to flip back and forth through.

Posted by: Grey Fox

Wait, you're saying that an electronic format in which you can search by topic and word is inferior to paper-format for reference purposes?

Uh-huh.

87 they are lousy for reference or non-fiction that you want to be able to flip back and forth through.

Posted by: Grey Fox at July 10, 2013 12:37 PM (sKuZd)

They are actually easier to flip back and forth through if you take time to learn how to set book marks.  It is the same thing as putting a "sticky" in a paper book.

88 resist, we Mooch!!

89 I would like to see this retroactively applied to Hillary Clinton. Posted by: no good deed at July 10, 2013 12:38 PM (WmLrU) Don't mess with Big Vag. This is your one and only warning...

90 One other thing that I noted and remarked on back when all the other people "settled". I have not seen any measurable decrease in e-book prices. Posted by: Vic at July 10, 2013 12:39 PM (lZvxr) Nope. I got my first Kindle for two main reasons. One, I was running out of space for the books and two, to save money buying books. The money saving reason is out the window now since I do prefer reading an actual book book to reading an ebook. If the cost differential is two or three books, gimme the real book. The space for books issue can always be addressed. That being said, being able to take nearly my entire library with me anywhere I go is fantastic. I can eliminate an entire suitcase from my travel needs.
What I don't understand is why there are not multi-format books being offered. I would buy a physical copy of a book with a code for an ecopy in the same way I would buy the blu-ray/dvd/ultraviolet version of a movie.

91 remember the Saudi guy who had over stayed his visa, was not attending school, had internet jihadhi connections and was burned in the Boston bombings, initially thought a suspect, and got a personal visit by FLOTUS in the hospital when no other "victim" did?



guess who was at the White House for the POTUS Fourth of July celebration?

come on

guess Posted by: thunderb
----------------------

Here's the story :  http://tinyurl.com/mqjtg9n

92 Apple? conspiring to fix prices? I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you! no way I'm going to leave the library I hope to pass down to my future children in a format that requires a power source and can be deleted or corrupted. I've got a can of gasoline and matches. Wanna see "deleted" or "corrupted"?

93   Wait, you're saying that an electronic format in which you can search by topic and word is inferior to paper-format for reference purposes?  Uh-huh. 
Posted by: weft cut-loop at July 10, 2013 12:43 PM (xvZYu)

There's a reason I have a ton of spec sheets printed out - and it's not because I hate trees.  

As Vic noted - with bookmarks, it's faster to flip back and forth than to start typing.   (and perhaps hitting a bunch of irrelevant search results)  

94 Well, I am not sure about this. Apple basically let publishers decide prices and take a commission. Apple's problem is they made publishers agree not to undercut the price they chose on other book site, AKA Amazon. That is where the anti Competition comes in. Exclusive sales agreements are not illegal on their face. This is an expansion of government interference with contract law.

95 thanks

96 I would buy a physical copy of a book with a code for an ecopy in the same way I would buy the blu-ray/dvd/ultraviolet version of a movie.

Brilliant!  I would too. 

97 Whoop, misread Vic's comment.   Ah well, price of fast comments. 

98 Posted by: alexthechick - Commence drinking now. at July 10, 2013 12:45 PM (VtjlW)


If everyone would do what I do and refuse to pay more than $10 for any "new issue" book and stick to $4 and $5 ebooks for the most part, the prices will come down.

99

ConservativeMonster at July 10, 2013 12:41 PM (oY6Yp)

 

 

It hadn't changed since publishers didn't have the leverage to force Amazon to agree to a new distribution agreement...remember, Amazon before the iPad was the ebook juggernaut and no one else came close.  Even when the first iPad came out people were comparing it to the Kindle and tech magazines were wondering if it was a Kindle Killer. 

 

So Apple comes out with the iPad, puts on an iBooks app, and tells publishers "hey, we have a kajillion loyal customers here who are eager to buy content for their iPads, we aren't interested in selling at a loss, so whaddya say we change those distribution agreements to a higher price point so we don't have to sell books at a loss to compete with Amazon?" 

 

The thing publishers needed to change their relationships with Amazon was a serious competitor in that space.  B&N wasn't it.  Apple was.

100

Interesting FrontPage translation of Morsi talking to head general before his ouster.  In name URL.    

 

Islam is a religion of peace, if by peace you mean neverending threats of war.

 

Note the general at least makes a pretense of caring about what the people  want and other branches of government.    

101 thanks Posted by: thunderb
---------

We endeavor to provide satisfactory service.

102 I've got a can of gasoline and matches. Wanna see "deleted" or "corrupted"?

We do too!

103 Wait, you're saying that an electronic format in which you can search by topic and word is inferior to paper-format for reference purposes?

He's right.

For example- imagine trying to use an e-book version of a Haynes or Chilton manual while working on your car.

Yes, you can set bookmarks and such, but sometimes it really is easier just to flip a page to chapter 9.

I prefer the Kindle format over paper most of the time, but there are circumstances where a physical copy is more convenient.

104 should I be worried?

105 If my Apple computer were a vagina, I'd be asking it "Where the hell is my dinner?"

106

I've been using my Kindle Fire so much...

 

...that I glanced at the top of the page of a paperback to see what time it was.

107 I have many leather-bound books and my home smells of rich mahogany. Posted by: toby928© retweets at July 10, 2013 12:22 PM (codCi) ---------------- I need to get some of those for interviews The one time I conducted a TV interview in my office, all I had to stand in front of was a bookshelf full of Swank and Tit Fancy magazines.

108 From Drudge: Skeeter orders fed workers to spy on each other - "Watch lifestyles, attitudes & behaviors, Odd working hours, unexplained travel" It's like he's begging to be snitched on.

109 What I don't understand is why there are not multi-format books being offered. I would buy a physical copy of a book with a code for an ecopy in the same way I would buy the blu-ray/dvd/ultraviolet version of a movie. Some publishers (mostly of technical books) do. I want to say that O'Reilly does that- or offers the ebook free with pre-orders. Something like that. It sounds like what publishers really need is some major advance in dead-tree publishing to let them bring those prices down.

110 Wow. So far all the comments on this thread suck.

111 For me,  the best reason to get an e-reader was all the free older books.  Classics and history.

112   It hadn't changed since publishers didn't have the leverage to force Amazon to agree to a new distribution agreement...remember, Amazon before the iPad was the ebook juggernaut and no one else came close. Even when the first iPad came out people were comparing it to the Kindle and tech magazines were wondering if it was a Kindle Killer.

So at the time the publishers made an agreement with each other and Apple, Amazon was selling every ebook at a loss?   

Huh.    Maybe they were making it up in used book sales?   Attracting indie ebooks?    Kindle sales?   /shrug 

113

Wait, you're saying that an electronic format in which you can search by topic and word is inferior to paper-format for reference purposes?

Uh-huh

 

If you are trying to do something like look at a plate, flip back fifty pages to read the plate description, flip back to look at the plate, etc - yeah, it is a lot easier. Even reading and taking notes on a history is a lot easier if you are using a hard copy, since you end up flipping back and forth a lot.  I have experience with both. So yeah, for serious research I much prefer hard copies to ebooks.

 

Add in the issue of scaled drawing in archeology texts....

114 For all you folks who are concerned about a device that needs electricity and down the road use (I assume you are worried about the collapse).  There are small portable solar chargers designed for portable electronic devices such as mp3 players, phone, ebook etc.  This will actually be much better when the collapse comes and you run for the hideaway in the mountains. You can take that e-reader with a 1000 books on it with you.  Not so for those hundreds of paper type books in your home library.


And that ereader will be your main source of entertainment other than staying alive.

115 thunderb - Nah. I stole that line from Jeeves the butler.

116 I might be working with a bad timeline, too.  

My impression was was that there were a couple of years between Amazon releasing Kindle and becoming a major ebook seller and the time when Apple got the agreements.  

117 And that ereader will be your main source of entertainment other than staying alive.
Posted by: Vic
------

As long as the battery lasts..

118 Yes, you can set bookmarks and such, but sometimes it really is easier just to flip a page to chapter 9.

I prefer the Kindle format over paper most of the time, but there are circumstances where a physical copy is more convenient.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at July 10, 2013 12:48 PM (SY2Kh)

You can do that with a simple "go to" command in an e-book.

119 People like hard-copied reference materials for the same reason automotive car buyers preferred analog dashboard instrumentation (when they still had the option.)

120 Wait, you're saying that an electronic format in which you can search by topic and word is inferior to paper-format for reference purposes? Uh-huh. Posted by: weft cut-loop at July 10, 2013 12:43 PM (xvZYu) Let's see. I want to be able to instantly look at the difference in these seven documents. I have only two monitors and one Kindle, Nook, iPad, tablet, whatever. I cannot put multiple pages on one screen due to legibility issues. Whatever shall I do? *taps chin* I'm not a Luddite, by any means, but there are times that low tech is the best way to go. Use the best technology for what you are trying to do.
Speaking of Chilton's, that Best Buy ad with the blue shirt talking about how awesome it is to use a tablet for car repair makes me laugh and laugh. Yup. It's awesome. Right up to the point where someone bumps the car and it falls off and shatters. Whereas the book? Who gives a crap if it falls and if you get oil all over it.

121 Wow. So far all the comments on this thread suck.

Posted by: scofflawx at July 10, 2013 12:50 PM (hcgfJ)

 

I am relatively certain the Hot Air button on your keyboard is in working order.

122 So, now that we're over 100 comments... What's the synopsis of the Persecution today?

123 eReaders don't tear or fade, and with proper cases are impervious to most bodily fluids. I'm thinking of developing a case that dispenses Jergen's and Kleenex.

124 As long as the battery lasts..

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 10, 2013 12:52 PM (aDwsi)

Did you read the part about the charger?

125 For me, the best reason to get an e-reader was all the free older books. Classics and history.

Me too.  There are also a ton of free or cheap indy e-reader books out there.

While the vast majority of $.99 indy books suck ass, the decent ones make up for it- if you can find them.

126 Who gives a crap if it falls and if you get oil all over it.

I don't own a tablet.  I have run into this problem using my laptop for recipes in the kitchen.  I could just print it out.  I guess I'm just lazy. 

127 Calibre, baby. Roll your own eBooks.

128
Heh.  I guess they found a judge that likes to read too.

Anyway, I just prefer holding a book when I read, I'm old fashioned like that.

129 Well, I am not sure about this. Apple basically let publishers decide prices and take a commission. Apple's problem is they made publishers agree not to undercut the price they chose on other book site, AKA Amazon.

That is where the anti Competition comes in.

Exclusive sales agreements are not illegal on their face. This is an expansion of government interference with contract law. Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal


A judge that doesn't know shit about business?  The deuce you say!

130 People like hard-copied reference materials for the same reason automotive car buyers preferred analog dashboard instrumentation (when they still had the option.)


Posted by: 13times
------------------

To a degree, car manufacturers are discovering that buyers prefer knobs and levers to digital doo-dahs. I personally get a little pissed when I have to figure out to change radio stations, or turn the volume up/down. A pair of knobs work much better than a touch screen and menu.

131 My problem with ebooks for reference material is one of interface. Purely in theory, it should be possible to have an ebook open to multiple pages at once. So instead of ANY "flipping back and forth" you'd simply hit the thumbnail (or whatever) of the page you wanted right now, and then the back-button (or whatever) to go to your book-marked thumbnails. You could even categorize your bookmarks, and open one or more categories at once.

132 I was given a Kindle as a Christmas present.  I don't use it a great deal, since my house is full of books and I usually have a book or two in the car, but it would be wonderful for taking with me on a ride, if I could figure out how to attach it to some spot on my Harley.  I don't have saddlebags, so that's out.

133 Okay. I know this is all Serious You Guys, no really. It is. I should not be so amused. Denounces, etc. That said, we truly need a caption contest for this: http://bit.ly/11CzgJY

134 @103 Wow! Morsi is a real fucking dickhead. He should have been shot "escaping".

135 E-books are lousy for reference because they're not internally hyperlinked enough to jump-browse. They're still the ancillary form. I'd never buy another linear text or reference book if a nonlinear form were available. Gimme a E-wiki. I don't mind DRM, people gotta eat. This might explode the current textbook scam by funneling the money to the authors...

136 Did you read the part about the charger?
Posted by: Vic

I think he means the life of the battery's ability to hold a charge.  Eventually it will not.

137 I for one am giggling at the publishing houses being fed their own ration of shite.  For hundreds of years, they have controlled what got printed and distributed.  Now anyone with an idea, talent, and the drive to actually write something can publish a book with out a NYC Liberal sneering at their efforts.  I still love hard cover books and I always will, but, I have never loved publishers with the possible exception of some of the SF houses.

138 As long as the battery lasts..


Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 10, 2013 12:52 PM (aDwsi)

Did you read the part about the charger?
Posted by: Vic
-------------

Yup, I did. Are you confusing a charged battery with a failed battery? I did not say 'so long as the battery is charged'.

139 @136 "Wow, your big dick feels so good in my pussy"

140 while electronic books are fine for fiction that you are only going read once straight through, they are lousy for reference or non-fiction that you want to be able to flip back and forth through.

I'd say that's about 99% of what actually gets read in America...genre fiction you'd never want to read twice.

Yeah, the Kindle sucks for poetry...15 lines on one page, 1 line on the next?  WTF.  Also sucks for anything with maps or diagrams.  OTOH, I like being able to highlight a word and get a dictionary definition, and I like not paying overdue fees, and my schlock fiction reading for the summer reading program at my local library is up 50% from last summer.

141

So, if ebooks are selling like hot-cakes, that's good: but they're probably *not* selling enough to cover the expense of the dead-tree copies. Thus, publishers have a vested interest in selling dead-tree copies (or making more money per ebook).
---------------

 

I suspect that the fiction publishers view the people who browse bookshelves as integral to the long-term survival of the industry.  When I go to an on-line bookseller, I typically know exactly what I'm looking for and go directly to that book.  I don't browse through book title after book title looking for something that pique's my interest.  If I didn't already know what I wanted, I wouldn't be there at all.

 

But when I go to a brick and mortar bookstore, I'll spend time browsing the shelves, looking for something that catches my eye.  It's fairly simple to browse that way.  And chances are that multiple books will catch my eye before I ultimately settle on one that I'd like to purchase.  Note that this is a purchase that I probably would not have made if I'd been visiting the book seller's online website.  And if the book is the first part of a series (and so many books are these days), then the publisher has made not just the one sale today, but possibly two (or more) additional sales in the future if I like the book that I bought today.

 

THAT is most likely why publishers are concerned about the popularity of e-books.  Publishers need to come up with a way to make e-books as easy to browse as physical books sitting on a store shelf (and no, offering "free sample chapters" online isn't as good - although it is a start).  Until that happens, the publishers are going to remain wary where e-books are concerned.

 

142

I was at a pub having a couple beers and this lefty was shitting the bed about Wal- Mart. 

I told him I thought Apple was guilty of worse things than Wal-Mart.

He started stuttering and babbling, had no idea what to say. I told him at least Wal Mart passes on the savings to the consumer. Apple rips off the consumer and creates fake shortages to justify the high prices. He was dumbfounded, had no rebuttal.

143 To a degree, car manufacturers are discovering that buyers prefer knobs and levers to digital doo-dahs. I personally get a little pissed when I have to figure out to change radio stations, or turn the volume up/down. A pair of knobs work much better than a touch screen and menu. Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 10, 2013 12:56 PM (aDwsi) I can replace a knob. The dealership has to replace the touchscreen. Gee, I wonder which I prefer and which the manufacturer prefers.

144 It's not Barry's iVagina I', interested in IYKWIMAITYD.

145 I personally get a little pissed when I have to figure out to change radio stations, or turn the volume up/down. A pair of knobs work much better than a touch screen and menu. I hope the sexbot manufacturers are paying attention.

146 I think he means the life of the battery's ability to hold a charge. Eventually it will not.

Posted by: Dang at July 10, 2013 12:58 PM (Hx2XA)

I have an MP3 player that is about 7 to 10 years old and the batter in it is just fine.  And you can always get a spare battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow5T93uqz9I

147 I don't have saddlebags, so that's out.
---------------------

Easy..., just tape it to the tank, read while you ride. What could go wrong?

148 I hope the sexbot manufacturers are paying attention. Posted by: rickb223 at July 10, 2013 01:01 PM (pZ0pM) Sexbots will be obey voice commands. No need for knobs and dials.

149
Posted by: alexthechick - Commence drinking now. at July 10, 2013 12:57 PM (VtjlW)


I have no caption, but I want one of those to paste a certain president's face on to punch repeatedly.  For stress relief.

150 Let's see. I want to be able to instantly look at the difference in these seven documents. I have only two monitors and one Kindle, Nook, iPad, tablet, whatever. I cannot put multiple pages on one screen due to legibility issues. Whatever shall I do? *taps chin* There’s an app for that Or at least, an Applescript. Coming from a very minor background in astronomy, when I think of “instantly seeing the difference” between two things, I think of rapidly shifting between them exactly placed on top of each other. That’s a lot easier on a computer than with paper.

151 And even if you don't have a spare battery, the installed battery will last one hell of a lot longer than those books left sitting at home because you couldn't carry them with you.

152 I like not paying overdue fees, and my schlock fiction reading for the summer reading program at my local library is up 50% from last summer.

A library?

I'm so sorry.  I didn't know you were homeless :p

153 Sexbots will be obey voice commands. No need for knobs and dials. The tits you say!

154 THAT is most likely why publishers are concerned about the popularity of e-books. Publishers need to come up with a way to make e-books as easy to browse as physical books sitting on a store shelf (and no, offering "free sample chapters" online isn't as good - although it is a start). Don't do it "online" but do sample chapters as free ebooks. I remember before the first Wheel of Time book came out (what, 20 years ago now?) that part of the marketing campaign was to give away essentially the first quarter or so. You could just pick up a free copy, and it was just enough to get you hooked. I would do that with ebooks. Basically "First 5 chapters: go!" Work with the ebook sellers to get them featured on front pages on some rotating basis, and I think you'll do okay.

155 new one

156

So at the time the publishers made an agreement with each other and Apple, Amazon was selling every ebook at a loss?

Huh. Maybe they were making it up in used book sales? Attracting indie ebooks? Kindle sales? /shrug

 

-----------

 

I had the sense that the margins on the ereaders themselves were pretty good, though how much that offset the loss is open to debate.  Certainly Kindle prices have been dropping like a rock since the first one, so I don't think the hardware margins were meant to offset the losses.

 

No, I think it was pretty standard penetration pricing.  If Apple hadn't come into the market I get the sense that Bezos would have gone to the publishers and demanded discounts on the distribution, since the market would have been proven to be rather strong.  The price most likely would have stayed at $10 or so, but Amazon preserving its margins through the wholesale channel agreement and not raising prices.

157 I know lawyers are super serious cause they wear suits. People who wear suits are totally serious. Because suits.

158 I don't have saddlebags, so that's out.

If you had a Goldwing you could mount it between the onboard cappuccino maker and blu-ray player.

159 133 Our brains have a hard time judging rate-of change when presented in digital formats;a hunter leads prey with an arrow or rifle shot by comparing static background objects versus the rate and direction of the moving object. Analog clocks with a sweeping second hand versus digital readouts I suspect the hard copy folks' brains work in a similar fashion.

160

Another thing about ebooks that I don't think has been brought up is the existence of inter-library loans. My local library charges five dollars per loan, which is too much for me to pay at the moment, but if I need or want  to read a book once through, it might be better to get a five dollar loan than a 9.99 ebook.

 

 

161 To a degree, car manufacturers are discovering that buyers prefer knobs and levers to digital doo-dahs. I personally get a little pissed when I have to figure out to change radio stations, or turn the volume up/down. A pair of knobs work much better than a touch screen and menu.
Posted by: Mike Hammer


Damn right!  I know where the air conditioner knobs are in my car and can easily adjust them without looking.  In my wife's car all the switches are in a row and impossible to tell one from another without looking down at the unit.  You also have to hold the button down for about 10 seconds or push it about 30 times to change the temperature where in my car a quick twist of the dial does it.  Another case of engineers at the car company coming up with something just to justify getting a paycheck.

162

I would do that with ebooks. Basically "First 5 chapters: go!" Work with the ebook sellers to get them featured on front pages on some rotating basis, and I think you'll do okay.

--------------

 

They already do that.  Barnes and Noble puts up the first chapter for free on-line.  Baen has the first several chapters on-line.  But you only read those chapters when you've already zeroed in on that book - i.e. you've already decided that book is worth your interest.

 

It's the "walking around, looking at everything, and figuring out which title or cover art catches your eye" phase that's difficult to conveniently replicate with an on-line website.  You can literally "check out" hundreds of books in a brick and mortar bookstore in seconds.  It takes a lot longer to do that on-line.

 

163 There’s an app for that Or at least, an Applescript. Coming from a very minor background in astronomy, when I think of “instantly seeing the difference” between two things, I think of rapidly shifting between them exactly placed on top of each other. That’s a lot easier on a computer than with paper. Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 10, 2013 01:04 PM (QF8uk) That is not even remotely what I mean. I mean I have multiple witness statements or photographs of different things or five different emails referring to two different contracts. I want to be able to turn my head and look at all of those instantly without having to pull them up. Absent an incredibly kick ass monitor set up, I can't do that right now. What I can do is take over a conference room, spread out sheets of paper, clamber up on a chair and then stare down at them all. Now, for what you are discussing, a computer would be hands down the better option. For document review of the type I do, sometimes computers are, sometimes they are not. I will say this, being able to scan an original and then lock that up somewhere safe and make people reviewing documents use the electronic version instead has saved me a great deal of stress. As anyone who has worked in a law office will tell you, the single worst place for an original document to be is in the hand of the attorney handling the case.

164 I would do that with ebooks. Basically "First 5 chapters: go!" Work with the ebook sellers to get them featured on front pages on some rotating basis, and I think you'll do okay.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at July 10, 2013 01:05 PM (/PCJa)

They are doing that already by the 1st 1 or 2 books in series.  In most of the Baen books you can get the first book, and sometime the first two books for free in a lot of their series.  I am currently re-reading a John Ringo series in which the first two ebooks is available for free.

165 Why is there no collusion among the publishers?  Pockets not deep enough for the government to bother with?

166 Why is there no collusion among the publishers? Pockets not deep enough for the government to bother with? Posted by: Dang at July 10, 2013 01:11 PM (Hx2XA) They settled.

167 ThereÂ’s an app for that Or at least, an Applescript. Coming from a very minor background in astronomy, when I think of “instantly seeing the difference” between two things, I think of rapidly shifting between them exactly placed on top of each other.  ThatÂ’s a lot easier on a computer than with paper. 

Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at July 10, 2013 01:04 PM (QF8uk)

That can work with pictures/graphs - I don't think it'd work with walls of text. 

I mean, you'd see the differences, but depending on word substitution/modification, you might see lines unchanged but shifted in position, which would show as a visual difference even though the content is the same. 

168 Posted by: Grey Fox at July 10, 2013 01:07 PM (sKuZd)



Loaned ebooks through y local library are free.

169

They are doing that already by the 1st 1 or 2 books in series. In most of the Baen books you can get the first book, and sometime the first two books for free in a lot of their series. I am currently re-reading a John Ringo series in which the first two ebooks is available for free.

-------------

 

A good-sized chunk of Baen's catalog (including pretty much EVERYTHING that John Ringo wrote before 2009 or so iirc) is available legally for free in its entirety at the Fifth Imperium website.

 

170 I know lawyers are super serious cause they wear suits.


People who wear suits are totally serious.


Because suits. Posted by: eleven


Briefcase?  Super serious.  Messenger bag?  Downgraded.

171 Why is there no collusion among the publishers? Pockets not deep enough for the government to bother with?
Posted by: Dang at July 10, 2013 01:11 PM (Hx2XA)


They settled. Posted by: alexthechick


I was looking like I knew what I was talking about until you posted that.

172 Briefcase? Super serious. Messenger bag? Downgraded.

Posted by: Dang at July 10, 2013 01:15 PM (Hx2XA)

Murse and socks with sandals, hide the money, the Damned ACLU has arrived.

173 Murse and socks with sandals, hide the money, the Damned ACLU has arrived.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil

I smell weed...

174 I mean I have multiple witness statements or photographs of different things or five different emails referring to two different contracts. I want to be able to turn my head and look at all of those instantly without having to pull them up. Absent an incredibly kick ass monitor set up, I can't do that right now.

Posted by: alexthechick - Commence drinking now. at July 10, 2013 01:10 PM (VtjlW)

ATI/AMD's Eyefinity support 6 monitor setups.    Apparently a 12 monitor setup is in the pipeline.  

Badger the boss? = D

175 I too used to swear by hand-held paper books back when Monty first started extolling the virtues of ebooks.  I swore I would never get one.  But wifey said she wanted one so I got her one.  After a while I decided I would get one too.  It did not take long for me to decide I preferred them over the paper copies.  Especially paperbacks with the fine print.


I am currently trying to replace all the paperback books I have that I like with ebook versions.

176 Okay, finally found something to deal with my confusion that "Amazon is selling ebooks at a loss". 

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/k4qxzrh

" Fact check: The DOJ has concluded that there is no evidence that Amazon is selling ebooks at a loss"

The sentence is a summary of an interpretation of a ruling, but a quick skim of the references seems good enough to me.  Individual ebooks may have been on sale in such a way that they were sold at a per unit loss, but the overall market was profitable for Amazon.  

177 Having jumped into the e-publishing scene recently (thanks again for the plug on Sunday, OregonMuse), I've been reading about this for the last year or so. Amazon seems to be hated by the Big 5 because they're at the vanguard of whatever the publishing industry is going to be in a few years, but nobody knows what that is yet. B&N seems to be beginning its death throes, the market for physical books still outstrips that for ebooks, and the barriers to self-publishing is basically nonexistent. To sum up: who knows? Not the publishing houses, which is why they're willing to collude with Apple rather than adopting Amazon's model and starting their own online book/ebook sales portals themselves. Also, please buy my book. http://www.amazon.com/Antediluvian-ebook/dp/B00DNLX96U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373477903&sr

178

"generally, the government doesn't go after people for offering the public lower prices"

 

except the Housing Market where prices must NEVER be allowed to drop and if they do they must be re-inflated immediately!

179 I wish the judge would sentence Apple, in addition to whatever fines/supervision/oversight is needed, to write "Amazon was not a party to this suit in any capacity" 1,000 times on a blackboard. They should be fined each time they tried to bring up Amazon. The big six (now big five with RandomPenguin merger) don't want ebooks to succeed. They don't want readers to expect a good ebook at $4.99. They know (or think they know) how to control coop, placement, reviews, etc for print books and didn't want that to change. Me, I would like to thank them for their assistance in my writing career ;-) If they hadn't tried to foist poorly formatted and proofed books on the public at astronomical prices, mine wouldn't look *nearly* as good a value...

180 Posted by: Sabrina Chase at July 10, 2013 02:46 PM (nsgr7)


I have read several of your books now.  I particularly liked The Last Mage Guardian


and what-da-ya-know, we have a Wed book thread.

181 Thanks Vic! You may be interested to know I am currently writing the sequel to Last Mage Guardian. I am very proud it meets the approval of the Senior Ranking Moron :-D (Go Wednesday Book Thread!)

182 Thanks Vic! You may be interested to know I am currently writing the sequel to Last Mage Guardian. I am very proud it meets the approval of the Senior Ranking Moron :-D


Oh I am hardly the senior ranking Moron.  I was a lurker for a long time but I didn't start commenting until around 2008.

183 Fucking retarded book publishers are no less retarded than movie and music industry executives. Do they have no idea whatsoever that e-books are inherently more profitable than physical hardcover or paperbook books ? That "book publishing" does not NEED to adhere to the "physical book" model. And, indeed, since you really cannot sell a used copy of your e-book, that gross sales could actually go UP with a predominantly e-book business model ? My sense, too, is that any Amazon price fixing was in RESPONSE to Apple entering the market and attempting to fix prices. Before that Amazon was effectively free to sell e-books at whatever price they wanted. Now there are some books that are actually MORE expensive in e-book form than physical hard copy. That's just fucking insane.

184 And for those who want to claim this is gov't overstepping their authority, I call bullshit. Since when has "competition" resulted in prices going UP ? Please. Collusion 101.

185

"I am currently trying to replace all the paperback books I have that I like with ebook versions."

 

Me too, but it's too expensive. I had figured that by now you could buy say, the whole Lucas Davenport set of crime novels (goes back over 20 years, 1 novel published per year) for a buck or so each. I bought my Kindle thinking that the prices of the older books would come down, but it hasn't happened yet. Was hoping this might do it, but after reading the comments, I have my doubts. Ugh.

186 My book is still just 9.99. http://amzn.com/1483966836

187 First, Amazon used market leverage to push the price down; generally, the government doesn't go after people for offering the public lower prices (unless this is part of some sort of dumping scheme) - Right. This is only what any good retailer does for its customers.

188 My reactions while reading the 160-page decision are here: http://tinyurl.com/lfm3rbd

189 Do authors autograph e-books?