1 Infamy indeed.

2 Remember Pearl Harbor

3 One of the events that left a deep emotional impression on me was sailing into Pearl Harbor and manning the rails to render honors to the USS Arizona.

I still get goose bumps and a lump in my throat thinking about it.

4 http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h72000/h72273k.jpg

5 Yes I remember it well, Sir Hillary and I were there climbing a mountain on the island at the time.  I was dodging bullets too.... 

6 My mom will be 72 tomorrow.

7 One of the events that left a deep emotional impression on me was sailing into Pearl Harbor and manning the rails to render honors to the USS Arizona.

I still get goose bumps and a lump in my throat thinking about it.

Posted by: Country Singer at December 07, 2013 09:46 AM (LUkGY)

I have been in and out of Pearl 6 times but never got to do that because we had to set the "mud watch" in the engine room.  That required everyone to be on watch to vent all the coolers.

8 Imperial Japan was rabid menace to the world. Modern-day dipshits make excuses for it and never admit the Japanese started conquering and enslaving and slaughtering their fellow Asians 10 years before PH. That damned empire was begging to be nuked. Now Japan exports Hello Kitty and tentacle porn.

9 Pearl Harbor: 16 Days To Die -- Trapped By The Memories -- Few Knew The Secret Of The Sunken Battleship; Families Weren't Told Of Sailors' Lingering Death

http://preview.tinyurl.com/owfdord

10 Tentacle porn?   Hmmmm... 

11 Truly the greatest generation.

12 I was stationed in Pearl to decommission my boat, every morning coming on board I could look across and see the Arizona. I just could never bring myself to go over there and see the oil still rising. I did like to go to the gap in the mountains that the Japanese flew though. It was the best place I have ever found to sit and ponder.

13 I have been in and out of Pearl 6 times but never got to do that because we had to set the "mud watch" in the engine room. That required everyone to be on watch to vent all the coolers. Posted by: Vic at December 07, 2013 09:50 AM (RlOaM) My wife and I went to the Arizona monument in the late 70's and we were the only round eyes there. It was full of Japanese

14 Posted by: Baldy at December 07, 2013 09:52 AM (2bql3) That's incredibly heartbreaking.

15 Le sigh, a P-40B could be called a Warhawk I guess.  But was usually called by its British name - the Tomahawk.

And *cudgels stupid lazy writer* the AVG did not engage the Japanese in combat until just before Christmas 1941 in defense of Rangoon.  After Pearl Harbor.  Pensacola has a P-40C recovered from Russia on diplay painted in the markings of Robert Neale, the plane had been transferred to the USSR from the RAF.  And one wonders if anyone checked the construction records to see if this P-40C had been one of the ones the RAF took in lieu of the P-40Bs they let go to the AVG.

16 Posted by: Barky O'Genius at December 07, Don't sell yourself short, you would have figured out a way to have peace for our time.

17 >>> Japanese started conquering and enslaving and slaughtering their fellow Asians 10 years before PH. Literally, worse than the Nazis.

18 Posted by: Baldy at December 07, 2013 09:52 AM (2bql3) A companion piece about the battleship USS West Virginia, or the "WeeVee." "They Will Always Be Remembered" .....Old Timers would tell 17 and 18 year old "boots" that if that time came "just inhale water quickly and get it over". This, the "grizzled Ones" claimed, was preferable to a slow death in a pitch-black void. For Clifford Olds(20), Ronald Endicott(1 , and Louis "Buddy" Costin(21), this would tragically come to pass.... http://tinyurl.com/kgadms7

19

Posted by: TiminAL at December 07, 2013 09:59 AM (A9c4d) --- Yep. I am glad I found the article. Took me a while using various searches. More than 2 weeks waiting for help that never came...

20 Ah, well, humbly re-submitted from last thread, since it's on-topic and since I incorporated that same photo, the doodle webwork for Dec 7: Decisions Have Consequences http://mindfulwebworks.com/doodles/decisions-have-consequences

21 Baldy, yes.  USS Oklahoma turned turtle due to all the torpedo hits.  Imagine being trapped in blackness in compartments with water all round.  And tapping to be heard.  Luckily some were rescued but that was Hell.  Eventually the battleship was righted and was under tow back to California when it capsized and sank into the deep Pacific.  In 2009/2010 when they were dredging Pearl Harbor near Battleship Row they found Oklahoma's mast and it was fly by C-17 back to the state.

And Bing wins for today's picture - http://www.bing.com/

22 My Grandfather served on the USS Arizona, would tell some stories about it, he didn't save any of the photos because "They are all dead". When we went to see the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbor I have never seen him get mad when he saw the Japanese Tourist takin photos. He scream at them those are my dead friends your taken pictures of, and they stopped. I am ashamed to say I was embarrassed but I was 8 and did not understand why. He decided not to relist and try and get a job luckly he got one working for PPL as an Electrician.

23 And soon we may be at war against China and alongside Japan. In a fight started by Chinese hunger for natural resources, hegemony, and payback.

24 Has Barry issued a statement today about how Pearl Harbor was all our fault because of white racism and imperialism that provoked the peace loving Japanese Empire?

25 My Grandfather said when the seas got ruff he would crack his walnuts using the Ship.

26 "In a fight started by Chinese hunger for natural resources, hegemony, and payback." So history repeats itself but rearranges the players. The number of ways the world is reenacting the lead-up to WWII is scary.

27 Literally, worse than the Nazis. And you will still have lefties saying that racism is a white European thing.

28 A list of massacres and atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese.  Aussie site.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html

Further information on the P-40B. 
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-40/41-13297.html

29 Dec 7th?

30 An unknown Pearl Harbor hero. Medal of Honor citation of Seaman First Class James Richard Ward "For conspicuous devotion to duty, extraordinary courage and complete disregard of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. When it was seen that the U.S.S. Oklahoma was going to capsize and the order was given to abandon ship, WARD remained in a turret holding a flashlight so the remainder of the turret crew could see to escape, thereby sacrificing his own life." http://tinyurl.com/khgm56u

31 The 20th Century history of Japan should be all the evidence needed to prove the complete superiority of a free people living in a constitutional republic.

32 "In a fight started by Chinese hunger for natural resources, hegemony, and payback." So history repeats itself but rearranges the players. The number of ways the world is reenacting the lead-up to WWII is scary. Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, assault Hobbit at December 07, 2013 10:17 AM (GDulk) This time with nukes, ICBMs, and Muslim suicide bombers. Oh, I forgot bio-weapons.

33 My GrandParents also took in a Chinese refugee, one day my Grandmother was Ironing clothes when He ran out of the House screaming, my Dad a boy at the time found him shaking and crying and he found out that the Japs used an Clothes Iron on him and his Family because they could. I hope one day to visit Hiroshima and not give a shit about those that died.

34

This week I  ordered a Dvd of  In  Harm's Way from Amazon for $4.   Stars   John Wayne,Kirk Douglas,Dana Andrews,Brandon De Wilde,Henry Fonda,Patricia Neal,Paula Prentiss,Tom Tryon,Stanley Holloway,Burgess Meredith,Carroll O'connor,Patrick O'neal,Franchot Tone,Jill Haworth,Otto Preminger.

 

 

Great movie, cheap price.

35 Excerpt from the Aussie site -

THE 'AKIKAZE' EXECUTIONS (March 18, 1943)

The Mitsubishi built destroyer Akikaze (Lt. Cdr. Sabe Tsurukichi) was ordered to sail to Wewak in New Guinea to remove some German residents who were suspected of using radio transmitters to report ship movements to the Americans. Forty civilians were rounded up, most of them German clergymen, plus a few nuns with two children. About thirty more civilians were picked up when the ship stopped at Manus Island before proceeding to Rabaul. En-route, Captain Tsurukichi received a radio message from the 8th Fleet Headquarters to dispose of all neutrals on board. On the aft deck a wooden scaffold was erected and a sheet hung across the deck to shield the executions from the rest of the prisoners. One by one the victims were led from their cabins, interrogated and blindfolded and taken to the rear of the ship. There, they were hung on the scaffold by the wrists from a rope and pulley and as their feet cleared the deck they were shot by a four man rifle party. Their bodies were then thrown overboard. The two children were taken from the arms of the nuns and thrown into the water. The men were killed first then the women, the whole procedure lasting three hours. At around 10 o'clock in the evening the Akikaze berthed at Rabaul.

36 Thanks, Baldy, for the link. I second/third/other the recommendation.

37 The Japanese used Bio Weapons on China, they dropped ceramic bombs filled with rats infected with the plague.

38 Posted by: ExSnipe at December 07, 2013 10:06 AM (57ubW)- Thank you. It is nice there is a picture of at least one of the men. What a horrible way to die...

39 Today I honor the memory of those who perished at Pearl Harbor by standing before the mirror and imagining how I might have sacrificed and died saved my own ass with no regard for anyone else if I had been there during the attack.

FIFY, you fucking SCOAMF.

40 Posted by: eman at December07,2013 10:22 AM(AO9UG) Yep. Add that to one of the players *wanting* to bring an apocalypse for religious purposes and WWII may end up having been just a charming dress-rehersal.

41 And thanks, ExSnipe. Nice to have the photo.

42 Murakami's novel "The Wind-up Bird Chronicle" tells how Evil can infect and take over a nation of good people, and what those good people have to do to stop it, and when they have to do it. Basically, the good people have to do a tiny act of evil in order to prevent much larger ones in the future. Japan and Germany failed to do that, and it took years of death and destruction (much of it focused on bystanders like Americans) to bring it all to an end.

43 Excerpt from the Aussie site -

Yeah.  I've got no guilt at all about Hiroshima.  Or Nagasaki.


aaargh, off sock.

44 Posted by: Baldy at December 07, 2013 10:27 AM (2bql3) It was the calendar the men kept that is truely heartbreaking, especially for the salvage crews.

45 Dec 7th serves as a humbling reminder to me how close we are to Christmas.

46 At around 10 o'clock in the evening the Akikaze berthed at Rabaul. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 07, 2013 10:25 AM (kFy87) I sure hope that ship went to the bottom.

47 IJN DD Akikaze was sunk by the US sub USS Pintado
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/ijn/akikaze.html

48 Basically, the good people have to do a tiny act of evil in order to prevent much larger ones in the future. -------------- I have pointed this out before, and no doubt will again in the future. Eric Bonhoeffer struggled with the question when he became peripheral to the plot to assassinate Hitler. Ultimately, he decided that to do evil was less damning than to BE evil, which would be the consequence of tacitly being a part of the Nazi structure.

49 Hope everyone has a fruitful reflective and illuminating day. 

I am heading out to meet with other local NaNoWriMo writers.

50 My father was a Motor Machinst Mate (Engineman) on a Navy AOG (Gasoline Tanker) during the Okinawa Campaign. His ship, like a lot of others, went through quite a few air attacks by the Japanese. After the campaign the allies were gearing up for the invasion of Japan scheduled for that November. His ship began training to be a "tank farm" on one of the invasion beaches. They were to deliberately beach the ship and provide the Army/Marine tanks with gasoline. When the crew found this out he told me they all considered themselves dead men. I have never regretted, nor felt sorry the A-bombs ended that war.

51 IJN DD Akikaze was sunk by the US sub USS Pintado http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/ijn/akikaze.html Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 07, 2013 10:37 AM (kFy87) Thanks, Anna.

52 On 3 November, USS Pintado fired a spread of torpedoes at Jun'yō, but Akikaze intercepted them, sacrificing herself to save the carrier.[10] Akikaze sank with all hands, 257 km (160 mi) west of Cape Bolinao, Luzon at position 16°48′N 117°17′ECoordinates: 16°48′N 117°17′E.

53 Posted by: ExSnipe at December 07, 2013 10:34 AM (57ubW) --- Yes, I get it, as much as anyone not in that situation can. I am glad their parents never knew.

54 IJN DD Akikaze was sunk by the US sub USS Pintado http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/ijn/akikaze.html Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at December 07, 2013 10:37 AM (kFy87) I bet you could come up with a hellava good ghost story, Anna. The massacre, the sinking by the sub.

55 Miller knew what that meant for his friend. "His days are numbered," he thought. "I'm afraid it's going to be a lingering death." ... ...Ronald Endicott and Buddy Costin are buried at the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific at Punchbowl crater in Honolulu. Cliff Olds' body was returned to his hometown and buried in the city cemetery. All their headstones say they died on Dec. 7, 1941 ((and, in a sense, that was so))

56 My thanks to the morons who recommended both Neptune's Inferno, and Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors. Both were well-researched and written. Great books. If you haven't read them, then get a copy from the library, or order one up. They are worth it.

57

>> IJN DD Akikaze was sunk by the US sub USS Pintada

You are an interesting cat Anna.

 

Have fun.

58 According to Wiki, the Akikaze massacre victims included a Catholic bishop and several members of his diocese,  and a group of Lutheran Evangelical missionaries. US citizens were also among the dead.

59 Just a short note. NC State University's ROTC group posts an honor guard at the School's Bell tower for the 24 hours of December 7th. The Bell Tower is a war memorial, which most folks don't know.

60 My uncle was in the horse Marine's or Mounted Marine's (not sure which is correct) there when they were attacked. He enlisted a few years before because he was a little wild, the family says. There are a few cool pics of him on his horse, topless hula girls, etc. Sounded like he had quite a time there before the war. They sent him to Saipan after Pearl Harbor and came home bow legged with a leg full of shrapnel. He always told the family he got wounded taking a dump in a slit trench when a Jap threw a grenade in it. No one believed him. When I got out of the Army I was fortunate to be able to sit with him and a bottle of whiskey from time to time. He never got over the way Jap soldiers would charge their lines in a suicide mass at night and how easy it was for the Marines to mow them down. Really great guy and I feel privileged to have known him.

61 How about the aussie nurses the japs forced to wade into the sea and then machine gunned them? Or the 90 Seabees they hacked to death?

62 My next door neighbor's uncle was a marine. He refuses to buy a jap car, even to this day.

63 Japanese Unit 731 Stuff of nightmares

64 In memory of my parents who were there. My dad was a chief on the submarine Cachelot.

65 Wow; just last night took my 17yo son to Bills Donuts.  Actually he took me; he loves driving in the snow.
As he was picking out his victims, I noticed a shrunken old man sitting alone sipping the last of his black coffee out of his styrofoam cup (Bill's is NOT fancy).  He had on the obligatory baseball cap that pronounced his membership of the 49th Bomb Wing.  There was an ancient set of tiny pilot wings, and some sort of airplane pinned over those words.
I finally went over and said hi, told him that I couldn't help noticing his wings; I have a set just like them, I said.
By that time, my son had come over; he's as tall as I am, and anymore, I only have about 20 pounds on the little monster, so put him in the 6'3 230 range.
"Bob" took a little bit to stand up, but he did; his stooped frame topped out at about 5 feet, maybe 120 pounds.  I felt like an ent.
We kept talking; his gnarled hands making small gestures, that worn wedding ring (I'll bet his missus is no longer with us) making an exclamation point to his larger pronunciations.
He was a B-24 pilot out of Italy..His whole face lit up when he talked about it...
Did I know how many B-24s Ford pumped out of their main plant at full production?
No, I didn't.
One every 68 minutes.
That kind of stuff went one for a bit and then he allowed that he'd only made it to 15 missions.  He was shot down.  At that point he stopped, and carefully extracted his wallet.  After rummaging around for a bit, he produced this ancient ID card, covered in plastic.  From 70 years ago, a cocky, mustachioed young stud glared defiantly from the picture.  I swear it looked like Clark Gable.
It was his POW card.  He said that he respected the Germans "quite a bit", and that they treated the Americans well. 
I asked if I could take a picture of the card; he said sure.  Ive got it in my phone now.
A bit more back and forth, and we started to leave after giving him a huge handshake, and heartfelt thanks.
As we're leaving Mike looks back at that tiny, shriveled 90 year old man, and says.
"What a stud."
Couldn't agree more.
Maybe my pilot wings aren't quite the same as his after all.

66 There are many books that address Jap atrocities.

67 Germans treated American POWs well??!! Uh, no.

68

Mike H, don't know if my comment was the one that turned you on to Hornfischer's books (Tin Can Sailors and Neptune's Inferno), but I hope more WWII geeks here note these titles and get them.  I have one more of his (Ghost Ship) sitting on my stack to be read.  Right now finally finishing the third volume of Richard Evans' trilogy (Third Reich at War).

 

I'm more or less a believer in the severe limits to moral assaying (comparing, say, the evil of Nazi behavior to that of Imperial Japanese behavior).  Slogging through Evans' (summarized, and fairly dry) account of the routine, cold, nauseating persecution and murder of Jews and others by the Germans across Europe confirms that belief. 

 

If the rain doesn't develop today, after putting up the lights on the bushes in front of the house I hope to drag the (Japanese!) wife to Pt Loma - a local re-enacting and restoration group has an encampment there on this weekend, there's a war bird fly-by (small, and weather permitting), and most importantly they have some of the coastal artillery installations open for tours (the group is slowly restoring them, I'm thinking of getting involved).  And along the way will stop to pay respects to the monuments to Taffy III and some of the escorts of Leyte Gulf at Rosecrans Nat. Cemetery.  

 

 

 

 

69 >>> Yeah. I've got no guilt at all about Hiroshima. Or Nagasaki. We saved Japanese culture by doing so. Take that, Lefties.

70 Posted by: Dr. Jesse Pinkman at December 07, 2013 11:07 AM (kkbgQ) My understanding is that US and British airmen *were* treated fairly well (Red Cross inspections saw to that). Everyone else was pretty much SOL though.

71 An unsung, unknown (like most) sailor just doing his job during a war. Photographer's Mate 3rd Class T.E. Collins "After photographing the oil and mud smeared interior of the capsized USS Oklahoma (BB-37) while she was under salvage at Pearl Harbor, 18 January 1943. He entered the ship through Number Four Air Lock, where pressure was raised to ten (lb.?) per square inch. An oxygen mast had to be worn at all times. Note his mask, tank suit, boots, gloves, and camera." Fourth photo down the page. http://tinyurl.com/mfnryyr

72 A sidebar type of story which is somewhat on topic, a man has been building a 1/3 scale model of a B-17G since 1999. It's not up in the air yet, but it's amazing work: http://theballybomber.com/index.html

73 Just finished watching an episode of Secrets of World War II on Guadalcanal . Hard to say that the battle for Henderson field was not the beginning of the end for the Japanese.

74 My understanding is that US and British airmen *were* treated fairly well (Red Cross inspections saw to that). Everyone else was pretty much SOL though. Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, assault Hobbit at December 07, 2013 11:13 AM (GDulk) Ignoring the fact of those that were caught and immediately murdered, others were sent to camps where they were starved and used as slave labor.

75 >>> My understanding is that US and British airmen *were* treated fairly well (Red Cross inspections saw to that). Everyone else was pretty much SOL though. A cob posted an article about that a couple months back. It focused on the death rates among POWs. The Soviets and Nazis were horrific to each other. Japan treated everyone horrifically. Excepting Russians, POWs in Germany had about a1% death rate.

76

#64, I was lucky to visit the museum about Unit 731, at Ping Fan just outside Harbin, Manchuria (today Heilongjiang Province) back in 1989.  I remember the Chinese hosts being surprised and pleased by my request to visit the museum, and of course the "huh?  what's that?" response by my fellow Americans in the group.  It was pretty basic - just photos and a few artifacts in the main old brick bldg. that is in the photos of the time.  Biological warfare experiments and other gruesome experiments (how long does it take someone to freeze to death in the elements or cold water), using POWs and local Chinese as subjects.

 

#66 - Mike, any way you could find the B-24 guy from the donut shop again?  I make it a practice to try and make sure such treasures have at least some of their stories written down by someone.  Favorite thing is to do a Library of Congress Veterans History Project interview with them (loc.gov/vets).

 

Everyone should check it out.  And if you have a WWII vet in your life, or encounter one, try to get them to do one, or get their family to do one with them.  I keep copies of the Vets Project brochure printed out to hand out to the vets and families.  Pretty simple, really.  Just a digital audio interview and as many original documents or photos as possible required (mostly I have the families make copies and hang on to the originals with info on where to send them when "the time" comes).

 

I encourage all Morons to look into this and, if such a vet is on your radar, at least make the effort (WWII vets just because of the obvious loss rates and the march of time - vets of all conflicts are part of the project, as well as state-side civilians with direct involvement in said wars).

 

 

77 I think Imperial Japan started conquering their Asian neighbors a lot longer than 10 years before PH. IIRC, they occupied Korea for about 40 years, so they were doing their shit for a loong time...

78 Posted by: MikeB writes award winning books. One can see why. Nice story.

79 Posted by: Dr. Jesse Pinkman at December 07, 2013 11:23 AM (kkbgQ) Do you have evidence of * Americans* being treated like that? Like I said, Americans and Brits were viewed as enemy combatants for Red Cross/ Geneva Convention purposes. The trick though was that *only* British and Americans qualified under the Germans very narrow definition so Poles, Czechs, French, etc were classified as traitors and absolutely were treated as you describe.

80 A cob posted an article about that a couple months back. It focused on the death rates among POWs. The Soviets and Nazis were horrific to each other. Japan treated everyone horrifically. Excepting Russians, POWs in Germany had about a1% death rate. One of the most interesting factoids about WWII was that the Germans fully expected that as the Americans and Russians were approaching Berlin, they would join forces with them, and go after the Russians. In retrospect, that may have been a good plan...

81 Posted by: non-purist at December 07, 2013 11:10 AM (afQnV) I was stationed on a Sub Tender at the Ballast Point Sub Base in 1975 and would sometimes go to the cemetary there. My friends thought I was weird for going there and walking among the headstones. I would say it's just my way of honoring what they did.

82 >>> the Germans fully expected that as the Americans and Russians were approaching Berlin, they would join forces with them, and go after the Russians. I'll only speak with General Steiner.

83 The Korean occupation was different though. In large part because it happened before Japan went *really* nuts.

Japan treated Koreans as their little cousins; blanketed the place with pro-Japanese propaganda on how Japan was there to protect the Koreans from the truly worthless races (which would be us, and the Chinese).

They did grab off lots of Korean comfort-women, but in that case they did it with some complicity with the locals. Girls, in Asian cultures, not being as valued as they should be.

So I gathered from "The Cleanest Race" about the origins of North Korean Juche.

84 Again, after the war there were a number of prosecutions for the hanging of captured US air crews. There were also trials and death sentences for SS personnel where American pows were used as slave labor, beaten, and denied adequate food, medical care, and clothing, resulting in deaths. US POWs were also subjected to forced death marches.

85 Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at December 07, 2013 11:37 AM (PtilZ)

The Koreans themselves don't exactly view that occupation so benignly though...

86 See: http://goo.gl/PdmvTA

87 KG: that would be Koreans today, like how today in France everyone supported the Resistance. There are plenty of skeletons in grandpa's closet.

88 Decisions Have Consequences
http://mindfulwebworks.com/doodles/decisions-have-consequences

Posted by: mindful webworker does stuff at December 07, 2013 10:08 AM (qBtUE)

 

Well done.

89 God bless America.

90 My Dad was on the USS Tangier, tied to the Oklahoma. Saw it all and much more during the was. He died in 2007, and I miss him.

91 Just finished watching an episode of Secrets of World War II on Guadalcanal . Hard to say that the battle for Henderson field was not the beginning of the end for the Japanese. Posted by: Roc Ingersol ----------------------- As I mentioned earlier, highly recommended read: Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal

92

Fluffy has it pretty much right, Dr Pinkman.  Overall western allied POWs were treated OK by the Germans.  Obviously there were exceptions like the Malmedy massacre, etc. - but generally things were kept within the bounds of Geneva. 

 

Just read last night in Evans' book about one category of POW I didn't know about - Italians taken prisoner by the Germans after the Italian Fascist govt. fell in July 1943 and Italy changed sides (well, technically).  The death rates for those sent to Germany to do forced labor were second only to Soviet POWs (i.e., high and horrific).   And there were some very large massacres of Italians who had surrendered on one or more islands where they had actually fought German troops following the fall of Mussolini.

 

One day a guy walks into the museum wearing a P-47 WWII cap.  Looks the right vintage, so I say "hope you weren't shot down" (reference to the amazing toughness of the P-47) - he laughs and says "why yes, I was!".   He said a bullet nipped an oil line and he had to bail out over Germany - but it was March 1945, very close to the end.  He said he was put in one of the five Luftwaffe camps in the area of the infamous one from The Great Escape. 

 

But by that time, Fritz was your best friend, he said the Red Cross packages flowed freely, cigarettes were shared with guards, and generally the Germans all acted exactly as you'd expect with the war clearly coming to an end and the Allies not that far away.  He said the "old timers" who'd been in the camp for a long time gave the new guys like him a lot of s**t about how easy they had it.  Conditions earlier had been much tougher, and of course the German demeanor a lot less easygoing.

93 For instance, the dictator Park (r. South Korea, 1961-79) started his career in Kwantung... for the Japanese:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee#Early_life

Doesn't take an awful lot of googling to turn up smelly laundry in Korea in the 1930s and 40s

94 Was just reminded of how left wing nuts (especially friends of mine who hate everything Western) think Buddhists are constitutionally incapable of cruelty or violence.

95 93 Fluffy has it pretty much right, Dr Pinkman. Overall western allied POWs were treated OK by the Germans. Obviously there were exceptions like the Malmedy massacre, etc. - but generally things were kept within the bounds of Geneva. Except for the ones they fucking murdered, beat, starved, used as slave labor, and sent on death marches. Again, there were a number of trials after the war. I fucking linked to them. Those weren't exceptions. And most of the war criminals got away with it.

96

boulder toilet hobo has it right in the sense that not all Japanese occupations or behavior in all the countries involved were the same.  Those Japanese occupations/colonial experiences that pre-dated the batshit-crazy military govt. period (mid-late 30s) were usually quite different from the darkest chapters of 1937-onwards.  Formosa/Taiwan, Saipan and the other German territories given by League of Nations mandate after WWI, Korea - in general their experience was quite different from what we know of the horrors of China after July 1937, the occupied Philippines, etc.

 

As to crimes committed against Allied POWs in Germany, yes there were some, but they were not systematic or widespread.  And I believe the SS was always involved.  Not a lot of cold-blooded (i.e. heat-of-battle, cloudy circumstance) murder of Allied POWs by regular German forces that I know of.  Camp life was varied, but recall the material privations the Germans faced in the last year of the war (sort of the point of our attacks on their production and transportation).  Geneva requires that you provide material conditions similar to those given to your own forces, within your ability to do so.  I am not aware that the German treatment of western Allied POWs ever systematically failed that standard, which means things did get tough later in the war.  Treatment of Soviet POWs and others, meanwhile, was outrageous and completely contrary to Geneva requirements.

 

 

97 Posted by: Diogenes at December 07, 2013 11:03 AM (hlh2k) Posted by: lynndh at December 07, 2013 11:41 AM (AjrEe) I have been driving my parents nuts the last several years about their memories of the depression and WW 2. Sometimes they don't want to talk about it, but I keep bugging them. I know they won't be around much longer, and I want their memories.

98 This day reminds me how important it is to have a President serving his third term...

99

OK, Dr. Pinkman, won't argue the definition of "exceptions".  If the actual norm for western POWs under German control was forced labor or execution, I'll just continue to live in my fantasy history world in which the norm was treatment generally within the limits of Geneva.  And I'll wonder how the very high survival rate for western Allied POWs was so much vastly higher than that for Soviet POWs (or Italian POWs).  Guess our Depression-era young guys were just that much tougher than their Soviet counterparts.

Off to put up the lights and lobby the wife to go in the rain down to the Pearl Harbor day events at Pt Loma .....

100 Thanks for the post, Dave in Texas, and all the tales, links, & other comments. The day only takes on greater significance as the decades roll on.

101 My favorite thing about these is I'll put up just a little something and y'all take off with it and add some great links.  I always learn something.

102 In Florence, across the Arno and up in the hills, you can see a little jewel of a church, San Miniato al Monte. Around the church is a graveyard. A number of the dead were killed by the nazis. There are two teenage brothers who were killed when the krauts were blowing up the bridges. On other graves, the dates of death correspond to the gestapo sending out an order to kill all prisoners. And there is a grave with life size statutes of a man in an Italian army uniform and a woman in long evening wear. The are dancing. The inscription says, according to my Italian 101, that the man died as a POW in Westphalia and the woman died of a broken heart. I assume only she is buried there.

103 KG: that would be Koreans today, like how today in France everyone supported the Resistance. There are plenty of skeletons in grandpa's closet.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at December 07, 2013 11:40 AM (PtilZ)

Not exactly, I'm speaking of those who lived under it.

104 You're right, Pinkman.  I should've stopped him right there.
YOU SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH, "BOB".  DR PINKMAN SAYS THAT THE GERMANS WERE ACTUALLY BAD! AND SINCE HES A DOCTOR, THAT INVALIDATES EVERYTHING YOU "SAY" YOU WENT THROUGH.
Oh, and your personal observations and beliefs?
Yeah those are wrong too.
I bet you're a ton of fun at parties.

Thanks for setting us all straight.
*writing in notebook; self, apparently the"Germans" that I've heard so much about were actually "bad".  reminder: check into the claims that the Soviets brought prosperity to the Ukraine.*
** remember, always check with the Dr. to see if things are suitable for posting on the worlds smartest military blog.

Actually, if you post here, you're probably an all right guy/girl/whatever.

Sometimes we lose perspective.  Pinkman: if you could've seen my boy, who has grown up in the age of the emasculated male Obama.  (Hes probably a little better off than most; my many tours overseas, in and around Iraq, A-stan have somewhat inoculated him against the wussification) - look at this tiny little man, and say, "what a stud", you'd probably forget that the Nazis were rat bastards. Probably behind the Japanese, but were contenders with up and coming Chinese and Soviets in total Rat Bastard-ness.
You'd probably just feel a little humbled and grateful that your son recognized who he had the privilege of shaking hands with.
Have a great day, all.

105 103 In Florence, across the Arno and up in the hills, you can see a little jewel of a church, San Miniato al Monte. Around the church is a graveyard. A number of the dead were killed by the nazis. There are two teenage brothers who were killed when the krauts were blowing up the bridges. On other graves, the dates of death correspond to the gestapo sending out an order to kill all prisoners. And there is a grave with life size statutes of a man in an Italian army uniform and a woman in long evening wear. The are dancing. The inscription says, according to my Italian 101, that the man died as a POW in Westphalia and the woman died of a broken heart. I assume only she is buried there. Here is a link to what it looks like, so very sad. http://thelastvisit.com/2012/10/a-cemetery-in-florence/

106 Today we lay to rest my sister's FIL. He was Air Force and several years too young for the big show. But like most from that era he kept his obligations fiercely.

107 Here is a link to what it looks like, so very sad. http://thelastvisit.com/2012/10/a-cemetery-in-florence/ Posted by: Patrick from Ohio at December 07, 2013 01:13 PM (b6koZ) Thanks, Patrick. The site doesn't mention the Westphalia part which I am sure I read. At the time I was also surprised to learn that Italians were german pows. But, if he was a german pow, it wouldn't have been in 1941. I have photos, I need to dig them out... Again, thanks for the link.

108

Lights half-way up.

 

One of the interesting things that Evans mines in his books (esp. the third) are the archives of the SS Sicherheitsdienst Hauptamt  (SS Security Service Main Office). 

 

And one of the curious things he brings to light from those archives was that animosity towards British/American bomber crews/aviators actually didn't rise to the level of lynchings etc. for a while after serious bombing began in 1943.  Even then, it was mostly in the smaller towns or rural areas, and not so much in the major cities which, of course, were destroyed.  But throughout the war, the SS archives document a sort of resigned ambivalence towards Brits and Americans in general - they weren't generally blamed for Germany's situation, and in fact resentment of Hitler personally and his regime were the more notable sentiments that grew as the German war effort fell apart.

 

By contrast, the SS archives reveal the rage and resentment towards Italy and Italians personally for the departure of Italy from the Axis in the summer of 1943.  Of course there was a well of ill-will or distrust from the Italians in WW I.  And then the weak performance of Italian troops in North Africa and Russia (good reasons for all that, but from the popular German viewpoint it all added up).  This makes the incredibly harsh treatment of Italian POWs less of a mystery.  Probably the same for German military abuses in Italy itself - without being able to document it in detail, I'd say it's a reasonable guess that regular German military (not SS, auxiliary police, et al) in Italy from 1943 onwards committed the most atrocities they had anywhere outside Russia and Ukraine.   Mixed bag, of course - Kesselring had the treasures removed from Florence museums supposedly in anticipation of war damage, but whether this was prudence or sorta-kinda-looting isn't clear.

 

 

109 May God bless the survivors and all veterans today and always. Thank you.

110 I'm late to the party, but a couple points:

Himmler declared prior to D-Day that the SS wouldn't take any prisoners.  They largely stuck to this--as opposed to the Wehrmacht, which did take prisoners.  This was the source for American troops' hatred for the SS, even before the Holocaust was widely known.

Pilots caught as POWs were treated particularly well as Goering viewed them successors to knights (I know--I'm not justifying, just explaining) and people to whom an extra level of chivalry was owed.

111 nationalww2museum.org check it out and support it if you can.

112 Obama's twitter feed today has no mention of December 7, 1941.

Here's what he tweeted today:

Have yourself a merry little conversation about health insurance: http://OFA.BO/dxBWMm  #GetCovered

Be covered with New Year's cheer and health insurance on January 1st. Here's how: http://OFA.BO/v5ksqA

"It shouldn’t be a partisan issue." —President Obama on extending unemployment insurance. Watch the weekly address: http://OFA.BO/9hcWqE

Watch the weekly address on the importance of extending unemployment insurance: http://OFA.BO/U1v74e

And no official statement. They're probably looking for a picture of him looking at the wreck of the <i>Arizona.</i>

113

#92

Mike Hammer.  Agree with yrs about Neptune's Inferno.  Terrific review on Amazon.

114 This site has hours of recordings of the original radio news broadcasts from 12/7. Just scroll down to see all the relevant links. https://archive.org/details/WWII_News_1941