August 11, 2013

Elon Musk Unveils His Latest Taxpayer Boondoggle
— rdbrewer

It works like this: 1) He comes up with a big idea. 2) You pay for it. 3) He takes a huge cut. 4) It never becomes economically sustainable.

But that's not the point. The point is putting extremely large amounts of money in Elon Musk's pockets.

Yes, once upon a time Musk started a real business, Paypal, that proved very successful without any government help. That was then, this is now.

Musk has three ventures: Tesla, SpaceX, and SolarCity. All are heavily dependent on government largesse.

Take Tesla for starters. It received the $465 mm loan from DOE, but it also benefits from a $7500/car federal subsidy for electric cars. Moreover, it benefits from the State of CaliforniaÂ’s Zero Emissions Credit program. In its infinite wisdom, CA mandated that all the major auto companies sell a certain number of zero emissions vehicles. If they donÂ’t they have to buy credits from companies that do make them-namely, Tesla. This was also essential in putting the company in the black in Q1, and the company is sitting on $250 mm worth of these credits.

IOW, TeslaÂ’s profits are courtesy of you, the taxpayer-and also courtesy of the shareholders of Ford (F), GM, Toyota (TM), Honda (HMC), etc.

Next consider SpaceX. This venture provides evidence of MuskÂ’s love for Occupy: he has promised that this private space venture will go to Mars, and wears an Occupy Mars shirt to make the point.

It is also touted as a privately capitalized space venture, which it is, I guess, but it is also almost completely dependent on government contracts. The private money is attracted by the scent of public money. Sorry, but a company that is dependent on NASAÂ’s IV for support is not truly a private company: the company is basically a cutout between the investors and the taxpayers. . . .

Elon Musk has a plan to get rich. It involves you. The taxpayer. You pay taxes. The government gives huge dollops of that money to Elon. Elon gets rich. Who could possibly object? Who could deny ElonÂ’s genius?

His Your latest venture? An ultra-expensive pneumatic subshuttle, like the one in Gene Roddenberry's Genesis II. Check out the article and the video at the link.

Mr Musk will not be patenting the design and it will be “open source”, meaning anyone can modify it, or try to build it.

That's nice of him not to patent a design that was essentially created in 1812. Sure, he wants this one to be a maglev (low friction magnetic levitation with magnets and superconductors) and to go much faster, but still...

It's not exactly a new idea. Recall that IBM couldn't enforce a patent for the personal computer, since it was just a collection of other familiar technologies. But Elon Musk has a big heart, and he will generously make this project open source. Just give him lots of money.

You have to give him credit for one thing: selling grandiose dreams to idiots. Maybe we shouldn't give him the money on this one? If it's such a great idea, we will be doing him a favor. We can let him develop it.

Follow me on Twitter.

Thanks to commenter J.J. Sefton for the Beach link.

Posted by: rdbrewer at 07:29 AM | Comments (246)
Post contains 555 words, total size 4 kb.

1 Does it catch on fire?

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at August 11, 2013 07:37 AM (R8hU8)

2 Stompity stomp, but probably good since it will help keep the book thread on books.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 07:37 AM (lZvxr)

3 Elon Musk has a plan to get rich. It involves you. The taxpayer. You pay taxes. The government gives huge dollops of that money to Elon. Elon gets rich. Hey, he really is a genius.

Posted by: real joe at August 11, 2013 07:39 AM (5wsCu)

4 Also heard  that after weeks of wrestling with the decision, he has decided to not seek a patent on Da Vinci's flying machine.  For the greater good, and the middle class.

Posted by: Ed Wood VS Godzilla at August 11, 2013 07:39 AM (GFu+a)

5 It's not exactly a new idea. Recall that IBM couldn't enforce a patent for the personal computer, since it was just a collection of other familiar technologies. But Elon Musk has a big heart, and he will generously make this project open source. Just give him lots of money



Apple sure as Hell enforced a patent on their shit.  But so much for this asshole wanting some more crony corruption.  If it was "green" and he had shilled out for the Obama campaign he would already be getting it.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 07:41 AM (lZvxr)

6 Because there is never a bad time for Klaatu...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiRUOzJ-FrE

and it is even on topic.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 07:41 AM (E3gqr)

7 Oh. This is the crap drudge had alluded to? Anyway, check this out: ClassicPics ‏@History_Pics Some nice old pixs. The one with the guy refusing to heil hitler has a sad background story, as if you ever thought it would end well for him and his family: http://goo.gl/cwymW

Posted by: waldo at August 11, 2013 07:42 AM (tCBZk)

8 Alfred Ely Beach did it first, and better IMHO. This guy Elon Musk is swindler. High end, but a swindler nonetheless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 07:42 AM (+98Gb)

9 New one up

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 07:42 AM (lZvxr)

10 "Elon Musk?"

Seriously?

WTF kind of name is that?

Posted by: cool arrow at August 11, 2013 07:42 AM (WMsq+)

11 oops wrong thread

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 07:43 AM (lZvxr)

12 Monorail!

http://tinyurl.com/l79gboo

Posted by: WahIggle at August 11, 2013 07:43 AM (QXiRr)

Posted by: A Cat at August 11, 2013 07:43 AM (MwfEC)

14 Remember the cartoon where Tweety Bird is in a pneumatic message tube and Sylvester wants to eat him?  With this boondoggle, if built, you will know how Tweety Bird felt.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 07:43 AM (GBWQj)

15 I do not particularly feel the urge to be shuttled around in large tubes like a checking deposit at the drive-thru window at the bank.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 07:44 AM (CA2NO)

16 Great post. I am really sick of corporate welfare. And both sides do it. Republicans need to start to differentiate themselves on this, at least on the national level. If a local community elects to do bonds for business development or something, that's one thing. (Not advocating it one way or the other, but I really believe local communities should make those decisions.) But the Federal govt needs to get out of this business. Only exception I *might* consider are businesses crucial to military readiness. Even then, I'm not sure, but I can at least see a reasonable case for trying to keep key components made by US companies.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 07:44 AM (5H6zj)

17

 

Is it for the children?

 

Cuz that would be OK then.

Posted by: Meremortal at August 11, 2013 07:45 AM (1Y+hH)

18 The mercurial, fictional character of Tony Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr in the Iron Man films, is reputedly based on him. Ah, journalists. I'm sure the rest of the article is accurate, though.

Posted by: Waterhouse at August 11, 2013 07:45 AM (UXOfE)

19 I saw this article last night, and the only thing that stuck out was that the author is claiming the character of Tony Stark from Ironman is based on Elon Musk.... that is fucking retarded.

Posted by: dr. shatterhand at August 11, 2013 07:45 AM (wGCtp)

20 Damn, lost my Lyle Lanely sock AND my place in line!

Posted by: garrett at August 11, 2013 07:46 AM (MwfEC)

21 "From Alfred, heed thy sharpened ear — A message we do bring — Starship appears upon our sphere — Through London's sky come spring."

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 07:47 AM (E3gqr)

22 The mercurial, fictional character of Tony Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr in the Iron Man films, is reputedly based on him. Right. Tony Stark is based on Elon Musk. And Red Sonja is based on me.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 07:47 AM (CA2NO)

23 PayPal is pretty handy though...

Posted by: Ace's "donate" button at August 11, 2013 07:47 AM (AwSPc)

24 19 I saw this article last night, and the only thing that stuck out was that the author is claiming the character of Tony Stark from Ironman is based on Elon Musk.... that is fucking retarded.

Posted by: dr. shatterhand at August 11, 2013 11:45 AM (wGCtp)

 

Yeah absolutely ridiculous.  Clearly he is actually the inspiration for Bruce Wayne.

 

Makes as much sense doesn't it.

Posted by: buzzion at August 11, 2013 07:47 AM (LI48c)

25 Didn't this guy invent Musk cologne? I've been douching with that shit since 7th grade and still can't get laid. I want my money back. Where's Holder?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 07:48 AM (+98Gb)

26 Am I the only one who sees the name "Elon Musk" and immediately thinks, "I bet he's tried to patent his own name."

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 07:48 AM (CA2NO)

27 How dare you attack our sacred cows!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 11, 2013 07:49 AM (gqgiP)

28 great writeup on Musk. I've driven past a Tesla Motors dealership/repair facility in downtown Seattle. I've yet to see one of their vehicles on the road.

Posted by: Secret Squirrel at August 11, 2013 07:49 AM (0SmH0)

29 Space-X is a scam that hires some clever engineers but Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites is the company that continually advances the science of flight.

Posted by: Mr. Dave at August 11, 2013 07:49 AM (igImj)

30 Wasn't "Elon Musk" a Ghostbuster?

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 07:49 AM (E3gqr)

31 I like this one more:  http://tinyurl.com/mmuvrco

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 07:50 AM (Iyg03)

32 It's a great idea. And the middle class.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 07:50 AM (+98Gb)

33 Musk is from South Africa, I believe, which may explain the weird name.

Posted by: Secret Squirrel at August 11, 2013 07:50 AM (0SmH0)

34 Try Elon Muck -- the kudzu of the new millennium.

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at August 11, 2013 07:50 AM (6xhLc)

35 He had better not get involved in the 5 and dime store cologne gig.

Posted by: Jovan Musk at August 11, 2013 07:51 AM (jucos)

36 I can foresee a number of major obstacles that will keep this scheme from ever coming down the pipe. Number one is the cost of right-of-way acquisition. While such a tube structure might not be totally incompatible with other uses of the land, say farming, I doubt that homeowners would be happy to have a tube in their back yard. So eminent domain is going to have to be employed in some places. (Now possibly, such a tube could be erected on pylons running down the medians of Interstates, or on arches over existing railroad tracks.)


Another issue will be the cost of liability insurance. If anything goes wrong with such a high-speed device, it will go wrong in spectacular fashion. If the maglev system fails, and a supersonic car grounds out against the tube, it might friction-weld itself to the tube, and then proceed to rip the tube off its moorings and send sections tumbling around the countryside...or through your residential subdivision. Tort lawyers salivate at the prospect.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at August 11, 2013 07:51 AM (60Q+L)

37 This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 07:51 AM (+98Gb)

38

Tony Stark, created in 1963 is inspired by a man born in 1971.  That's like Hillary Clinton, born in 1947,  being named because of Sir Edmund Hillary successful climbing of Mount Everest that happened in 1953.

Posted by: buzzion at August 11, 2013 07:51 AM (LI48c)

39 Mr. Musk may need to be neutralized one day, and if so it can be fairly easily accomplished, but to give him some room: The Virginia Company ended up being an absolute failure, but it was absolutely necessary if Virginia was to be founded.and Musk is, I think, willing to financially sacrifice to do something like that. It just hasn't reached the jump-off point yet. As to him being "Tony Stark"--hopefully ge does not engage in that sort of thinking, for I am not aware of any real "putting butt on line/risking life" dangerous job he has ever performed.

Posted by: T. at August 11, 2013 07:51 AM (xIqxD)

40
Republicans need to start to differentiate themselves on this, at least on the national level.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 11:44 AM (5H6zj)


Why should they, what is their incentive? At the national level it's mostly progressives and corporatists, and they love themselves the Beltway lifestyle.

Posted by: KG at August 11, 2013 07:51 AM (IPz9m)

41 And Red Sonja is based on me.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at August 11, 2013 11:47 AM (CA2NO)

 

Yeah, I can see you with a chainmail bikini and a sword.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at August 11, 2013 07:52 AM (lr3d7)

42 Every good con-artist knows that when you find an easy mark, you suck it dry before you move on to the next one.

Posted by: Dick (@DicksTrash) at August 11, 2013 07:52 AM (GrtrJ)

43 Thanks, Y-not.

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 07:52 AM (Iyg03)

44 If there is a just afterlife Nikolai Tesla should be slamming doors and breaking the china in Elon Musk's mansion.

Posted by: Mr. Dave at August 11, 2013 07:52 AM (igImj)

45 ELO's lawyers have contacted Elon to cease and desist using their initials.  Henceforth he will be known as N Musk.  Then the Musk Ox Organisation [MOO] sued to get their name back.  So he will simply be called N.  As in Null.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 07:53 AM (GBWQj)

46 But 60 Minutes said Musk was a space genius!

So it must be true.

Posted by: PJ at August 11, 2013 07:53 AM (ZWaLo)

47 >>I've yet to see one of their vehicles on the road. I finally saw one last week. In Provo, of all places. Resisted the urge to ram it. After all, I *like* my Eos and I can't afford another.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 07:53 AM (5H6zj)

48 Is Musk creating and manipulating a system that makes him rich, or is he simply making use of that system? I don't think Mr. Musk is the problem.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 07:53 AM (AO9UG)

49 Don't think it's good for passengers but a buried maglev tube might be good for freight container transport.

Posted by: CanaDave at August 11, 2013 07:53 AM (AwSPc)

50 Frankly I am more impressed with Richard Branson. Though most likely a flaming lib, at least his ventures work. and I am fascinated with Virgin Galactic. A poster above mentioned Burt Rutan and Scaled Composites doing great work- sans tax dollars.

Posted by: Secret Squirrel at August 11, 2013 07:54 AM (0SmH0)

51 What the hell, moar Klaatu!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avrqo0rC7cw

More of an overnight thread thing, but why not?

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 07:55 AM (E3gqr)

52 I think I built a model of this back in grade school and went "pew-pew-pew" with my flying saucer from "The Invaders (in color, a Quinn-Martin Prod.)"

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 07:55 AM (+98Gb)

53 47- Provo eh? wow. I figured with all of the mindless lib drones with money here in Seattle Tesla vehicles would be lining the streets. nope. lots of Subarus though.

Posted by: Secret Squirrel at August 11, 2013 07:55 AM (0SmH0)

54 The thing about Tony Stark and even real life captains of industry and science: they make original shit.  They build sustainable companies, usually on their own.

I can't see where Musk would be taken seriously at the Rich Person Cocktail Parties™.  He's not in their class.  PayPal is cool, but none of the other stuff is.

I can see where he would be welcome at Al Gore's house, OTOH.

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 07:56 AM (Iyg03)

55 @10 - South African. A couple edits to Elon's self-created business hagiography. He did not found PayPal, he bought into it at a fairly early stage with the $16m Compaq paid him in the Zip2 purchase. He did not found Tesla or SolarCity, though probably neither would exist at this point without his money. Whatever you can say about Tesla's appetite for tax dollars he played the game as the rules said. SpaceX is no more dependent on government largess at this point than was Boeing or Lockheed at a comparable stage in their development, or the Union Pacific, or...

Posted by: JEM at August 11, 2013 07:56 AM (Hi24w)

56 Our government has got to get out of the business business.

Posted by: jwpaine @PirateBallerina at August 11, 2013 07:56 AM (/lWM8)

57 And Red Sonja is based on me.Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at August 11, 2013 11:47 AM (CA2NO) Yeah, I can see you with a chainmail bikini and a sword. Be still, my heart!

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at August 11, 2013 07:57 AM (/KKhG)

58 I thought Tammy was the 'She Devil with a Sword' around here? 

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 07:57 AM (GBWQj)

59

Anna,

 

I assume all our gingers look like this:

 

 

http://tinyurl.com/mmlf5e5

Posted by: Colorado Alex at August 11, 2013 07:59 AM (lr3d7)

60 @54 - Musk has done one thing I consider very admirable - he's taken his software money and gone off and built real physical things with it.

Posted by: JEM at August 11, 2013 08:00 AM (Hi24w)

61 When I was working for DeLaurentiis, I actually met Brigitte Nielsen. She walked into a restaurant and sat down with a coworker and me. Every fucking head turned. Striking woman.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:00 AM (+98Gb)

62 >>>Why should they, what is their incentive? To win elections. We may hate OWS, but there was a kernel of appeal of that stupid "movement," even to middle class people, imho. >>At the national level it's mostly progressives and corporatists, >>and they love themselves the Beltway lifestyle. Yes, they do. You know, of all the aspects of Romney I found least appealing, it was his "corporatist" (or I'd say "Rockefeller Republican") vibe I disliked the most. I can put up with a Republican candidate who differs from me on a lot of things - even basic things like "social issues" - but I have a hard time voting for people who clearly come from a world so different than mine in which it's clear they have no idea what it means to try to save money in a bank or take out a loan for a car or not be "in the know" on the latest hot stock or whathaveyou. That's not unique to Republicans, but when the reason I'm supposed to vote for someone is he (or she) has made themselves a lot of money - well, that's not much of a draw. Still voted for the dude, but that hit that those folks give off is NOT a winning one, imho. At the end of the day, the GOP winds up going to the mat on things like not raising taxes on the 1% or student loans, but they are more than happy to use our tax money to help their cronies' businesses. I'll denounce myself in advance, but I gotta be honest. I'd like to see some candidate of principle rather than this business manager model candidate or old Beltway dinosaur like the last two.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 08:00 AM (5H6zj)

63 I loved "The Invaders" and their saucers were a classic design. I've got the series on DVD but when I watch it now it is mostly for the car spotting fun. David Vincent usually had a pretty sharp ride.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:00 AM (E3gqr)

64 Actually, Space-X is a very successful enterprise, technically, with a record that is approaching unparalleled levels. This guy is going to be a player in the space age. I think there is a possibility everything else is just to keep liberal harpies off his back in case he moves beyond LEO (because let me assure you, there is always the possibility they will try to put their dicks in the coffee--crew selection, mineral rights, "proper thinking" people only behind it, etc. etc.) Or it just could be Musk is yet another HI-LIV: highly intelligent, low information voter, velueving the "right" things just because of a quick five minutes worth of emotional thinking and not much more.

Posted by: T. at August 11, 2013 08:01 AM (xIqxD)

65 Maybe Provo because so many tech companies like Google (and the NSA's huge data storage facility) are building centers there. It's called the Silicon Slopes.

They choose a well run, Mormon, Republican state for their business but preach out of the other side of their mouths.

Posted by: PJ at August 11, 2013 08:02 AM (ZWaLo)

66 To go with the Red Sonja motif - Chicks in Chainmail as edited by Esther Friesner.

http://tinyurl.com/k8x4jps

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:02 AM (GBWQj)

67 >>53 47- Provo eh? wow. A lot of conspicuous consumption around BYU. The school is very cheap to attend, but there are a lot of wealthy kids who go there.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 08:04 AM (5H6zj)

68 Actually, Space-X is a very successful enterprise, technically, with a record that is approaching unparalleled levels.

How much money is it making, T?  Are taxpayers being repaid?

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 08:04 AM (Iyg03)

69 63 I loved "The Invaders" and their saucers were a classic design. I've got the series on DVD but when I watch it now it is mostly for the car spotting fun. David Vincent usually had a pretty sharp ride. Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 12:00 PM (E3gqr) Roy Thinnes did a good job in "Journey to the Far Side of the Sun." Good premise but the script was rather weak. Great models; Gerry & Sylvia Anderson, of course.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:05 AM (+98Gb)

70 He talks like a fag and his shit's all retarded.

Posted by: Overdue comment generator at August 11, 2013 08:05 AM (gqgiP)

71 Forget death panels, now we can take out the old and infirm with a one way ticket to nowhere on the Whiplash Express.

Posted by: Fritz at August 11, 2013 08:05 AM (K7xnX)

72 Gene Roddenberry's Genesis II What?

Posted by: AmishDude at August 11, 2013 08:05 AM (xSegX)

73 70 He talks like a fag and his shit's all retarded. Posted by: Overdue comment generator at August 11, 2013 12:05 PM (gqgiP) Potential Democrat presidential candidate.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:06 AM (+98Gb)

74 I always liked the Spindrift from "Land of the Giants" too--the Aurora Spindrift and Invader Saucer models were the same scale so there were lots of space battles in the garage when I was a kid.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:06 AM (E3gqr)

75 I don't see any problem with this arrangement.

Posted by: General Motors at August 11, 2013 08:06 AM (jucos)

76 Tesla paid back that 450 million loan nine years early. Tesla stock has gone up 600% in 3 years Musk has a net worth of about 8000 millions. People that wealthy already know that they can never spend that much money in their lifespan. They have other motivations besides money.

Posted by: occam at August 11, 2013 08:09 AM (GCigg)

77 As much as Musk is annoying, he is just playing the game and some of what he does is actually pretty interesting. It is the tragedy of commons; why take it out on Musk? He didn't create these programs, he is only taking advantage of them. It isn't like there isn't risk involved. After all, what the government giveth, the government can taketh. If the programs are stopped, his companies will fold overnight.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:09 AM (5FlIV)

78 The guy hasn't done anything illegal, and if he really can build his supertrain for 1/10 the cost of CA's bullet train to nowhere, go for it. Capitalism is all about competition and CA liberals are obviously adult children whose parents never bought them a train set.

Posted by: Cato at August 11, 2013 08:10 AM (Nu+yb)

79 Actually when it comes to cinema and travel tubes, look to Forbidden Planet when Morbius shows Capt. J.J. Adams Krill technology.  People talk of the impact Metropolis had on cinema, Forbidden Planet had a similar impact.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:11 AM (GBWQj)

80 Hey RD: Alfred Ely Beach was a prolific inventor and the founder of "Scientific American." Although his pneumatic underground tube railway was impractical, he built it in secrecy, under the nose of Boss Tweed. It highlighted the need for a modern subway in NYC to ensure the city's growth and his tube went a long way in making that happen, although it took 20 years for the construction of the first segment of the NYC subway. Interestingly, almost 30 years after the Beach tunnel was sealed off, it was discovered when construction workers were digging for the Broadway BMT subway. The grand piano, chandeliers and the original ornate car were still there.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:11 AM (+98Gb)

81 68 "Technically" means "it works", i.e., doesn't blow up. From that perspective, then, yes, actually the taxpayers are getting what they paid for, which is cargo flights to the ISS. I'm not saying this is the Ford Motor Company, earning profits.. What I am saying is that, technically (ie.e., rocket-science wise), it is an *extremely* and *uniquely* successful firm. And if we are going to go there, EELV had government money behind it too. One can argue whether or not there should be an ISS, but contracts to private companies/individuals for provisioning/hauling cargo to government outposts is as old as the Republic.

Posted by: T. at August 11, 2013 08:12 AM (xIqxD)

82 79 Actually when it comes to cinema and travel tubes, look to Forbidden Planet when Morbius shows Capt. J.J. Adams Krill technology. People talk of the impact Metropolis had on cinema, Forbidden Planet had a similar impact. Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 12:11 PM (GBWQj) James KKKameron allegedly has the remake rights to "Forbidden Planet." More sic-fi agit-prop heading our way no doubt.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:12 AM (+98Gb)

83 >>It isn't like there isn't risk involved. After all, what the government giveth, the government can taketh. The risk should be HIS not ours. >>If the programs are stopped, his companies will fold overnight. QED.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 08:12 AM (5H6zj)

84 74 I always liked the Spindrift from "Land of the Giants" too--the Aurora Spindrift and Invader Saucer models were the same scale so there were lots of space battles in the garage when I was a kid. Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 12:06 PM (E3gqr) The Spindrift was an offshoot of the Flying Sub from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea." Always loved that Flying Sub.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:13 AM (+98Gb)

85 How is the mortgage interest deduction economically justified? Isn't it just a delayed housing subsidy?

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:13 AM (AO9UG)

86 I've got this mental image of Elon being a big, bloated tick.

Posted by: Invictus at August 11, 2013 08:13 AM (OQpzc)

87 Does the Occupy Mars shirt means he wants to send Occupy to Mars? Who doesn't?

Posted by: Cato at August 11, 2013 08:13 AM (Nu+yb)

88

WTF?

I see y'all already caught the Stark bit.

Good.

Musk invented a time travel machine then, so clearly he is a genius.

Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 08:14 AM (GaqMa)

89 To go with the Red Sonja motif - Chicks in Chainmail as edited by Esther Friesner. http://tinyurl.com/k8x4jps Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 12:02 PM (GBWQj) I often wonder what these ladies wear UNDER their chainmail. Because you've got to imagine that chain mail alone against bare skin would... shall we say chafe? Making a chain mail bikini... unpleasant, to say the very least.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 08:14 AM (CA2NO)

90 87 Does the Occupy Mars shirt means he wants to send Occupy to Mars? Who doesn't? Posted by: Cato at August 11, 2013 12:13 PM (Nu+yb) Just don't call them "redskins."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:15 AM (+98Gb)

91 "Far Side of the Sun" isn't bad. I've got the UFO series on disc too--love the purple wigged moon chicks.

Have you ever seen the Dan Curtis pilot that Thinnes was in? It is called the Norliss Tapes--the premise isn't bad but you can tell the production was knocked together. There are a couple of spots where you can actually see Angie Dickenson reading the cue cards.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:15 AM (E3gqr)

92 And then there are the pols who want a piece of the pie. Exhibit A: Cory Booker, the "founder" of Waywire, a real "thought leader, he is!

http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/nyts_excellent_booker_startup.php

Posted by: Lizzy at August 11, 2013 08:15 AM (CzGy/)

93 Musk invented a time travel machine then, so clearly he is a genius. Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 12:14 PM (GaqMa) So THAT'S where ace got it!

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 08:15 AM (CA2NO)

94

Well we're totally screwed, apparently the article is right: http://goo.gl/XjEXnF

Favaru likes him some of Musk's Musk I guess. (Link to Time)

Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 08:16 AM (GaqMa)

95 Does the Occupy Mars shirt means he wants to send Occupy to Mars? Who doesn't?

Posted by: Cato at August 11, 2013 12:13 PM (Nu+yb)

 

If he claims he wants to conquer it and put in occupation troops and claim it for the kingdom, Queen Moochibella will probably sell the US's jewels to fund it.

Posted by: Invictus at August 11, 2013 08:16 AM (OQpzc)

96 Ace are you advocating AGAINST privatization of space? Are you saying that space exploration should be done under socialism? Or just against wasting money going into space?

Posted by: occam at August 11, 2013 08:16 AM (GCigg)

97 Paypal isn't a genius technology, it's pretty standard financial stuff, basically a company electronically crediting in your name. A different matter entirely than a Mars mission or maglev.

Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 08:17 AM (MMC8r)

98 The early airlines badically needed mail contracts to thrive. My basic take is that it is too early to tell on Musk. Wait to see if he blows his $800 million on a Mars colony--then you'll know. As far as politics--I think we all know a white South African emigre is only going to get so far trying to excommunicate Americans, so my guess that is not his game/main interest. He's not Hanks.

Posted by: T. at August 11, 2013 08:17 AM (xIqxD)

99 91 "Far Side of the Sun" isn't bad. I've got the UFO series on disc too--love the purple wigged moon chicks. Have you ever seen the Dan Curtis pilot that Thinnes was in? It is called the Norliss Tapes--the premise isn't bad but you can tell the production was knocked together. There are a couple of spots where you can actually see Angie Dickenson reading the cue cards. Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 12:15 PM (E3gqr) I recall the title but I don't think I ever saw it. Will have to check it.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:17 AM (+98Gb)

100 Someone did not read the post.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 08:17 AM (5H6zj)

101

Posted by: occam at August 11, 2013 12:16 PM (GCigg)

 

Stupid troll is stupid.

Posted by: buzzion at August 11, 2013 08:17 AM (LI48c)

102 Are you sure that Elon Musk isn't that cheap cologne you get at Sav-a-Lot?

Posted by: PMRich at August 11, 2013 08:17 AM (KDUNf)

103 anyone in favor of coal powered cars? We have the technology at hand to run them on coal gas.

Posted by: occam at August 11, 2013 08:18 AM (GCigg)

104 Posted by: occam Ace didn't write the post you fucking imbecile.

Posted by: Waterhouse at August 11, 2013 08:18 AM (UXOfE)

105 Bring it!

Posted by: The Combustion Engine (Now in Regular and Natural Gas Flavors!) at August 11, 2013 08:18 AM (kyAWi)

106 Posted by: occam at August 11, 2013 12:16 PM (GCigg) It's not Ace, you douche.

Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 08:18 AM (MMC8r)

107 My 98 Badically=basically. Oops.

Posted by: T. at August 11, 2013 08:18 AM (xIqxD)

108 102 Are you sure that Elon Musk isn't that cheap cologne you get at Sav-a-Lot? ---- It goes great over ice with a twist of lime.

Posted by: Y-not at August 11, 2013 08:18 AM (5H6zj)

109 Tony Stark looks like a dork in that photo.  Something tells me that the inspiration for Pepper Potts is big a disappointment as well.

Posted by: Fritz at August 11, 2013 08:19 AM (K7xnX)

110 >>>>James KKKameron allegedly has the remake rights to "Forbidden Planet." More sic-fi agit-prop heading our way no doubt. <<<<

I hope Robbie kicks his ass.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:19 AM (E3gqr)

111
For some old school tech background, link to the Rand Corp, study of concept back in the bell bottom era:

The Very High Speed Transit System - RAND Corporation 1972

Pdf: http://tinyurl.com/maedfo6

BTW - on the proposed route map, please note that Detroit gets a supersonic Vactrain station.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 11, 2013 08:19 AM (kdS6q)

112 absolutely free, just pay for processing...

Posted by: panzernashorn at August 11, 2013 08:19 AM (MhA4j)

113 Posted by: Waterhouse at August 11, 2013 12:18 PM (UXOfE)

Oh...I doubt that he's doing any fucking.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 11, 2013 08:20 AM (gqgiP)

114 Elon Musk is not extracted from the anal glands of the Peruvian Latrine Rat.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:20 AM (AO9UG)

115

Ok.

So Maglev.

Firstly it's not new. In fact I can go to the Six Flags right by me and ride a Mag Lev launched roller coaster.  No really.

But it's never as cheap as people want to make it out to be, and furthermore, it's never really worked when it's been tried.  The superconductors needed to generate the field are expensive and hard to work with.

MAYBE but putting it in a tube, you could simplify things by avoiding the need for superconductors and just using same pole magnets, but the cost is still going to be high, and the solar just ain't gonna cut it. 

Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 08:20 AM (GaqMa)

116 Have you ever seen the Dan Curtis pilot that Thinnes was in? It is called the Norliss Tapes--the premise isn't bad but you can tell the production was knocked together. That pretty much defines all Dan Curtis productions. I've seen it, but it's not quite up to even 'Night Stalker' standards.

Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 08:20 AM (MMC8r)

117 Bath salts, gin, and Benadryl is a helluva cocktail.

Posted by: Occamzzz at August 11, 2013 08:20 AM (Aif/5)

118 We'll sue.

Posted by: Makers of the Penis Pumper at August 11, 2013 08:21 AM (Hx2XA)

119 *rummages in the mental attic while the sauce simmers*

Far Side of the Sun where there is found in the same orbit as Earth but on opposite side of Sun there is a mirror Earth?  Gerry Anderson animation also. ???

MWR, what male fantasy writers put women warriors through....

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:21 AM (GBWQj)

120 BTW - on the proposed route map, please note that Detroit gets a supersonic Vactrain station.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 11, 2013 12:19 PM (kdS6q)

 

If it goes from zero to supersonic in less than one second, I'm for giving all the pols a free ride on it.

Posted by: Invictus at August 11, 2013 08:21 AM (OQpzc)

121 Elon Musk. By Faberge.

Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 08:21 AM (MMC8r)

122

>>It isn't like there isn't risk involved. After all, what the government giveth, the government can taketh.

The risk should be HIS not ours.

>>If the programs are stopped, his companies will fold overnight.

QED.

It is his risk. Ask the German solar producers what happens when you build your company on government handouts. The question should be whether or not the government has the program (which I don't believe it should), not whether or not he takes advantage of the program.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:22 AM (5FlIV)

123 85 How is the mortgage interest deduction economically justified?

Isn't it just a delayed housing subsidy?

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 12:13 PM (AO9UG)


No deduction has ever been justified.  It is all political just like ethanol.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:22 AM (lZvxr)

124 I can see you with a chainmail bikini and a sword

You are now banned from all our events and websites forever, and we're alerting Slate and the SPLC.

Posted by: Jon Scalzi at August 11, 2013 08:22 AM (d7tB2)

125 Posted by: occam at August 11, 2013 12:16 PM (GCigg) Shouldn't you be doing your homework? That "So You're Becoming a Woman" pamphlet isn't going to read itself you know.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 08:22 AM (CA2NO)

126 Heh, "Fantastic Voyage", Proteus is cool, but the best bit in that is Arthur Kennedy feeling up Raquel Welch while he is "helping" her with the anti-bodies.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:23 AM (E3gqr)

127 Perhaps Musk will invest in this next?
http://www.ufunk.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ufunk-selection-du-week-end-22-4.jpg

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:23 AM (GBWQj)

128 Is Musk the only genius engineer who never builds anything that anybody actually uses? Ok, paypal right.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at August 11, 2013 08:23 AM (Dbxc7)

129 121 Elon Musk. By Faberge. Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 12:21 PM (MMC8r) He can bring home the bacon, fleece the taxpayer like nobody can, and never let you forget it's a scam, Because he's E-lon...

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:23 AM (+98Gb)

130 ... although the SWFA's ongoing implosion into a singularity might be a topic for the book thread

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at August 11, 2013 08:24 AM (d7tB2)

131 128 Is Musk the only genius engineer who never builds anything that anybody actually uses? Ok, paypal right. Posted by: Flatbush Joe at August 11, 2013 12:23 PM (Dbxc7) Meh, the Mafia invented PayPal. "You better pay, pal."

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:24 AM (+98Gb)

132 123 85 How is the mortgage interest deduction economically justified? Isn't it just a delayed housing subsidy? Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 12:13 PM (AO9UG) No deduction has ever been justified. It is all political just like ethanol. Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:22 PM (lZvxr) Then there are millions of Elon Musks out there and they are the taxpayers rdbrewer mentions.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:24 AM (AO9UG)

133

How is the mortgage interest deduction economically justified?



Isn't it just a delayed housing subsidy?

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 12:13 PM (AO9UG)

No deduction has ever been justified. It is all political just like ethanol.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:22 PM (lZvxr)

This is my point exactly. I would vote against either program... but you can bet your ass I claim the mortgage interest deduction every year.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:25 AM (5FlIV)

134 Since the other thread is dead

Here's one for you RINO lovers; King wants to run in 2016



http://tinyurl.com/mveew9e

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:25 AM (lZvxr)

135 126 Heh, "Fantastic Voyage", Proteus is cool, but the best bit in that is Arthur Kennedy feeling up Raquel Welch while he is "helping" her with the anti-bodies. Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 12:23 PM (E3gqr) Arguably the most fabulous tits in history!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:25 AM (+98Gb)

136 Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at August 11, 2013 12:22 PM (CA2NO)

Well done. Very well done.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 11, 2013 08:25 AM (gqgiP)

137 I think you can hit Musk on some of his ventures like Tesla, but SpaceX I think is great and is moving in a far better direction than NASA ever did.

Posted by: KG at August 11, 2013 08:26 AM (IPz9m)

138 133  Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 12:25 PM (5FlIV)



Income tax deductions and credits are just another form of crony corruption.



I am still in favor of a flat tax on all income regardless of the source and amount. No deductions or credits allowed.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:26 AM (lZvxr)

139 The biggest PT Barnum in the scitech hype money machine is Craig Venter. Guy has become a billionaire and ... what has he actually built? He starts companies with massive hype, then cashes out a year or two later, and then ... nothing. All the magical miracle cures never seem to actually arrive. Meanwhile Venter buys another yacht.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at August 11, 2013 08:26 AM (Dbxc7)

140 >>> not quite up to even 'Night Stalker' standards<<<<

I hate to say it because I like Roy, but part of the problem with it is Thinnes. If you had Darren McGavin reading the narration-without changing a single line-it would be far more entertaining.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:27 AM (E3gqr)

141
Elon Musk. By Faberge.
Posted by: zsasz





Kinda young, kinda now, Elon!

Kinda free, kinda wow! Elon!

There's a fragrance that's here today, and they call it — Elon!

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 11, 2013 08:27 AM (kdS6q)

142 J. J. Sefton if my stomach was not rumbling..  I would have lost my appetite at the concept of James 'What's a budget' Cameron in charge of remaking Forbidden Planet  What monsters of his Id will escape to pollute that movie?

On second thought, may Cameron be smitten by that horrid Amazon Studios script submission called Forbidden Planets and he makes a movie of it.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:27 AM (GBWQj)

143 Well done. Very well done. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 11, 2013 12:25 PM (gqgiP) *bow* I do what I can.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/b][/i][/u] at August 11, 2013 08:28 AM (CA2NO)

144  Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 12:25 PM (5FlIV)



Income tax deductions and credits are just another form of crony corruption.



I am still in favor of a flat tax on all income regardless of the source and amount. No deductions or credits allowed.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:26 PM (lZvxr)

 

I would prefer a consumption tax, but otherwise agree with you. A flat tax would still be better than the current system. But until that day arrives, I will pay the least amount of taxes legally possible under the current system.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:29 AM (5FlIV)

145 If a flat tax with no deductions or exemptions is instituted, the churches will be taxed too. This also means your church.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at August 11, 2013 08:29 AM (d7tB2)

146 The injury done to the taxpayers and to the nation itself is done by the income tax. It is the root of all the manipulation, bribery, and hypocrisy. Not Elon Musk.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:29 AM (AO9UG)

147 What I think is weird is all these rich celebrities using Kickstarter. The latest is Lady GaGa and Marina Abramovic, an uber rich performance artist. These rich lefty assholes have no shame.

Posted by: waldo at August 11, 2013 08:29 AM (tCBZk)

148 Jon Scalzi can go and try to French kiss a Damnthing.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:30 AM (GBWQj)

149 The subsidies are on hybrids as well right?If not for subsides I wonder what hybrid/electric sales would be(and without the government buying them as well).Every time I see that Prius commercial with that annoying song I change the channel and curse.

Posted by: steevy at August 11, 2013 08:32 AM (9XBK2)

150 I would have lost my appetite at the concept of James 'What's a budget' Cameron in charge of remaking Forbidden Planet What monsters of his Id will escape to pollute that movie? The Krell machines loose every being's inner Republican and the world dies in a one-night orgy of starving women, children and old people.

Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 08:32 AM (MMC8r)

151 Musk will get a lot of support from big mfgs who make things like superconducter tech, tunnel borers, prefab concrete makers, electrical tech and supply... everything that goes into a hi-tech subway like this.  And they will all start pouring money into the coffers of politicians. 

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 08:33 AM (Iyg03)

152 145 If a flat tax with no deductions or exemptions is instituted, the churches will be taxed too. This also means your church. Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at August 11, 2013 12:29 PM (d7tB2) The Goddess Irony approves.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:33 AM (AO9UG)

153 I was looking at photos of the arriving guests at some party Jennifer Anniston threw for her bf. All celebs and all in BMWs, Porches, Mercedes -- most single occupant. These are the assholes who are always lecturing us on global warming.

Posted by: waldo at August 11, 2013 08:34 AM (tCBZk)

154

Posted by: steevy at August 11, 2013 12:32 PM (9XBK2)

 

I thought the hybrid subsidy died.

My parents got a Prius and I don't recall them mentioning any tax credit.  They claim they're saving gas money (apparently the second generation ones actually are better at switching and saving gas on the highway.)

Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 08:34 AM (GaqMa)

155 Da unions want a piece dis.  Don't you be tinkin' you can do dis without union labor.

Posted by: Da Unions at August 11, 2013 08:34 AM (Iyg03)

156
Gene Roddenberry's Genesis II
What?
Posted by: AmishDude



A Roddenberry pilot from his post-Trek period.  Ended up doing three versions with different plots and casts, but could never get a net to greenlight the show.

The first one, Genesis II with Alex Cord is excellent.  One of the best SF movies of the 70s, imho. Finally came out on DVD a few years ago. Well worth hunting down. Vactrains and Mariet Hartley with two belly buttons. Woo hoo!

Now if they would just put his Spectre pilot out.

Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 11, 2013 08:35 AM (kdS6q)

157

Posted by: Da Unions at August 11, 2013 12:34 PM (Iyg03)

 

In fairness, the one thing the unions are good at doing is blowing hot air....

Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 08:35 AM (GaqMa)

158 The flat tax is just a shit sandwich made with fresher bread. Taxing income is the problem. Not how you tax it.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:36 AM (AO9UG)

159 Legal does not make it right. It only means some fucking politician is letting you use the system set up for his buddies. Elon and those like him ARE the problem. Figure four or five per state minimum.

Posted by: nip at August 11, 2013 08:37 AM (jI23+)

160 All the early internet e-commerce was founded more on chutzpah than with visionary or technical genius. At the beginning of the internet explosion--before the internet powers-that-be were forced to accept the wild-west takeoff of ".com" domains--it was uncertain whether the internet could be used for profit. The backbone was run with taxpayer money, and various "authorities" regularly made noise about shutting down anyone daring to make money over the internet. It seems silly looking back on it from where we are now, but there was a time when access providers required their subscribers to agree to highly restrictive terms of service to keep the utopian busybodies off their backs.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at August 11, 2013 08:38 AM (V3kRK)

161 Elon Musk is a crook and a maggot.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at August 11, 2013 08:38 AM (Dbxc7)

162 159 Legal does not make it right. It only means some fucking politician is letting you use the system set up for his buddies. Elon and those like him ARE the problem. Figure four or five per state minimum. Posted by: nip at August 11, 2013 12:37 PM (jI23+) The system is the problem.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:38 AM (AO9UG)

163

  My daughter just strutted out of the loo with a giant grin from ear to ear...I have to go see.... 

 

  "My God.  What an amazingly large poo!"

 

 

  She yelled "Bring It!" before leaving the house.

 

  *sobs*

Posted by: Sophie Haewood at August 11, 2013 08:38 AM (B/3gr)

164 Oh, one thing "Norliss" does have going for it is Claude Aikins as the local sheriff. He was the 70's go to guy for a cop trying to "Keep a lid on this thing...."

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:39 AM (E3gqr)

165 Oh, and hyper-loop will never be built.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at August 11, 2013 08:39 AM (Dbxc7)

166 The female protagonist of Ayn Rand's "Woman on Trial"/"Night of January 16th" dons fireplace-heated chain-mail unmentionables with nothing underneath. And a Sveedish accent, too. Fantasize as you will in your air-conditioned post-apocalyptic comfort, when it comes to putting a lit Chesterfield out on Dagny's alabastrine ass, you just can't beat Ayn Rand.

We ("We?") had ("HAD?") very fast intercity mass transit once already, in the inter-urban electric railway systems. And, at least from Cincinnati to Toledo, they moved at a science-fiction like speed. And -- pace Benito -- pretty much ran on time. Fares were high(ish) for their time, the safety record was nothing to write home about but somewhat better than other high speed rail, and, outside city limits and Traction Trust turf, they were built without subsidy by private money. They almost never turned a profit except for hauling stone, and fuel for coal power plants. Neither did the Limiteds.

There is only so much market for people-in-capsules. They depend on someone (or, now, some department) building a lot of irreplaceable offices, swell restaurants and talking picture palaces within free walking distance of the urban terminus, since that does not happen naturally. That world no longer exists, which is why the private automobile replaced the inter-urban.

Put people's cars on auto-carrier railcars in big cities, go a reliable 79 MPH to distant big cities, charge less than the auto fuel would cost, and (3)profit!

Posted by: comatus at August 11, 2013 08:40 AM (JNUY4)

167 156 Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 11, 2013 12:35 PM (kdS6q) Roddenberry wanted to spin off Col. Gary Seven (Robert Lansing) and his secretary Roberta Lincoln (Terri Garr) from the popular episode "Assignment: Earth" into their own series. The pilot never happened or if it did is unavailable.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:40 AM (+98Gb)

168
I thought the hybrid subsidy died.
My parents gota Prius and I don't recall them mentioning any tax credit. They claim they're saving gas money (apparently the second generation ones actually are better at switching and saving gas on the highway.)

Posted by: tsrblke at August 11, 2013 12:34 PM (GaqMa)

 

Mostly right. It is based on the number of years a model has been out, and decreases every year. So the federal tax credit for the Prius is long gone. I am not sure about different states.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:40 AM (5FlIV)

169 The Big Pharaoh ‏@TheBigPharaoh 9m In Beni Sweif, 15 Christian homes were burned plus parts of a church after sectarian clashes erupted because of a dispute over a road bump! Too bad to be true?

Posted by: waldo at August 11, 2013 08:40 AM (tCBZk)

170 Shit, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook already have one. I want my town to have one next.

Posted by: Hurricane at August 11, 2013 08:41 AM (2LKaa)

171 No deduction has ever been justified. It is all political just like ethanol.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:22 PM (lZvxr)

Exactly.

Add to that list all preferences, such as tax credits, enterprise zones, blah, blah, blah......

One law for everyone.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 11, 2013 08:42 AM (gqgiP)

172 The US is funding the ethnic/religious cleansing of Christians from the Middle East. It's basically a reverse Crusade, and American taxpayers are the #1 funding source.

Posted by: Flatbush Joe at August 11, 2013 08:42 AM (Dbxc7)

173 Lansing's best work was "Empire of the Ants". Heh, Joan Collins too.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living... at August 11, 2013 08:42 AM (E3gqr)

174 167 156 Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at August 11, 2013 12:35 PM (kdS6q) Roddenberry wanted to spin off Col. Gary Seven (Robert Lansing) and his secretary Roberta Lincoln (Terri Garr) from the popular episode "Assignment: Earth" into their own series. The pilot never happened or if it did is unavailable. Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 12:40 PM (+98Gb) That TOS episode was the pilot.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:42 AM (AO9UG)

175 145 If a flat tax with no deductions or exemptions is instituted, the churches will be taxed too. This also means your church.

Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at August 11, 2013 12:29 PM (d7tB2)


Churches operating a buisness are already taxed. However, donations to churches are not income therefore would not be taxed.  However, people who donate would not be able to write off their church deduction.


And yes, I am all for that.  I am also for churches paying property tax.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:42 AM (lZvxr)

176 I am also for churches paying property tax.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:42 PM (lZvxr)

The DOJ will call taxing Black churches a violation of the 14th amendment and the VRA.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 11, 2013 08:45 AM (gqgiP)

177 The Founding Fathers knew that the power to tax was the power to destroy. You want to destroy Religion in America, tax it.

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 08:46 AM (ZshNr)

178 The process is this: Politicians get elected. Politicians set up artificial industry backed by government money. Monied and connected people position themselves at the end of the spigot. Money those people make goes into campaign contributions. Politicians get (re)-elected. Repeat ad infinitum.

Posted by: zsasz at August 11, 2013 08:46 AM (MMC8r)

179 And BTW, I am totally against any "consumption tax" unless it is implemented under hard rules that are codified in the Consitution.



1. The amount is fixed period dot com. They can not arbitrarily increase it over time the way Europe has
.
2. EVERYTHING has the tax applied to it equally.

3. No deductions or kick-backs for the FSA. Everybody has to take a bite of the shit sandwich.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:47 AM (lZvxr)

180 174 Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 12:42 PM (AO9UG) Ach Sooooo! Could've been a good show, I think. Good chemistry between Garr and Lansing.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at August 11, 2013 08:47 AM (+98Gb)

181 I forget..is it the plural or the diminutive of Elon ... Eloi?

Posted by: comatus at August 11, 2013 08:47 AM (JNUY4)

182 177 The Founding Fathers knew that the power to tax was the power to destroy. You want to destroy Religion in America, tax it.

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 12:46 PM (ZshNr)


I throw the BS flag on that one.  It was BS then and it is BS now.  And BTW, that shit did not start with the founders. It was handed down by SCOTUS much later.  My property is being taxed.  Are they out to destroy it (before Obama)?

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:49 AM (lZvxr)

183 And BTW, I am totally against any "consumption tax" unless it is implemented under hard rules that are codified in the Consitution.



1. The amount is fixed period dot com. They can not arbitrarily increase it over time the way Europe has
.
2. EVERYTHING has the tax applied to it equally.

3. No deductions or kick-backs for the FSA. Everybody has to take a bite of the shit sandwich.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:47 PM (lZvxr)

 

Yes, not sure how it would work otherwise. The whole point is to take away the power given by the current tax code... which is the main reason it will never happen.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:51 AM (5FlIV)

184 When I started to read this article yesterday with the associated hype my first thought was , another Segway. I also recall that when NYC was planning their first subway systems a pneumatic transport was proposed but politics and money sided with rail cars.l   

Posted by: Bufalobob at August 11, 2013 08:52 AM (BA1qT)

185 183 And BTW, I am totally against any "consumption tax" unless it is implemented under hard rules that are codified in the Consitution. 1. The amount is fixed period dot com. They can not arbitrarily increase it over time the way Europe has . 2. EVERYTHING has the tax applied to it equally. 3. No deductions or kick-backs for the FSA. Everybody has to take a bite of the shit sandwich. Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:47 PM (lZvxr) Yes, not sure how it would work otherwise. The whole point is to take away the power given by the current tax code... which is the main reason it will never happen. Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 12:51 PM (5FlIV) Which is why the road leads to Let It Burn.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 08:53 AM (AO9UG)

186 The Founders knew well what they were doing. The citizen's inalienable right to worship freely was paramount. Far more important than whatever taxes might be drawn from the Church. Taxing the Church is a long-held dream of Statists. They know they could wipe it out in less than a generation.

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 08:53 AM (ZshNr)

187

Vic,

     Why are your for property tax? Essentially, it destroys the concept of private property. As soon as you can't afford the property tax, you lose the property. Basically, you are renting the property from the government, and more improvements YOU make, higher your rent. I hate the whole concept, I just accept it because I have no choice. 

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:54 AM (5FlIV)

188 Geez you humans, there would have been a third cast member if the series with Gary Seven had been greenlighted.  Isis the cat who could transform into a gorgeous human woman with gloss black hair.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 08:55 AM (GBWQj)

189 Sweary Time Travel: http://goo.gl/vwLKbj

Posted by: waldo at August 11, 2013 08:55 AM (tCBZk)

190

"Recall that IBM couldn't enforce a patent for the personal computer, since it was just a collection of other familiar technologies." 

 

Of course, this is true of every invention.  Every invented device is a combination of known elements. 

 

Posted by: Bob Dole's pencil at August 11, 2013 08:55 AM (m0le6)

191

Folks,

 

If there is to be a real space program, it MUST eventually be driven by private money.  Just imagine if Southwest Airlines was a division of the US Air Force, or Carnival Cruises was owned by the US Navy.  Brrrr.  You have to start somewhere, and getting a viable, affordable launch capability is part of the process.  If Musk makes money, good for him.  There are some parallels, though not very strong, in the way that aviation developed in the years after WWI. 

 

Treg

 

Posted by: Tregonsee at August 11, 2013 08:56 AM (QnBmw)

192 131. Meh, the Mafia invented PayPal. "You better pay, pal." Posted by: J.J. Sefton hm, the offer you can't refuse ...between coercion and persuasion, razor's edge or fine line

Posted by: panzernashorn at August 11, 2013 08:56 AM (MhA4j)

193 Which is why the road leads to Let It Burn.

Posted by: eman at August 11, 2013 12:53 PM (AO9UG)

LOL, sadly this seems to be the most probable outcome. 

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 08:56 AM (5FlIV)

194 You want to destroy Religion in America, tax it.

The Founders paid taxes to support religion. Look up "antidisestablishmentarianism." The generation Jefferson despaired of, the first after the founding, instead of further debating slavery, wasted its time discussing (to death) the disestablishment of state religions, and the right of women to own property. Silly geese that they were.

The ministers who were deprived of sinecures by disestabishment became community organizers. When you talk about religion and taxation on this continent, for most of its history you're discussing apportionment, not exemption. It took over 200 years to get churches to "neutral" from the position of "recipient." 

Posted by: comatus at August 11, 2013 08:57 AM (JNUY4)

195 Why are your for property tax? Essentially, it destroys the concept of private property. As soon as you can't afford the property tax, you lose the property. Basically, you are renting the property from the government, and more improvements YOU make, higher your rent. I hate the whole concept, I just accept it because I have no choice.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 12:54 PM (5FlIV)



I am not "for" property tax per se.  But I am for EVERYONE taking a bite of it not just a select few. Property tax is the way local things have always been financed all the way back to colonial times.  However in those times one had to pay property tax to be able to vote or hold office.



That is the way it should be now.  If not, then eliminate the property tax and replace it with a sales tax as I enumerated earlier..

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 08:59 AM (lZvxr)

196 And if the Government had the power to tax Churches right now, today, what great benefits do you see coming from it? Apart from the benefit to the hardcore Left?

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 09:00 AM (ZshNr)

197 Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 01:00 PM (ZshNr)


In cities like the one near me that have a church on every city block that occupies at least 3 to 5 acres of land it would mean that private home owners would not have to pay as much tax.


If you can not see that you are just being dense.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 09:02 AM (lZvxr)

198 Carnival Cruise AYFKM. You're going to big-L libertarian hell for that.

Please, please say that in a TV debate, just to make Luapnor look sensible.

Posted by: comatus at August 11, 2013 09:02 AM (JNUY4)

199

That is the way it should be now. If not, then eliminate the property tax and replace it with a sales tax as I enumerated earlier..

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 12:59 PM (lZvxr)

 

Got it. Agree.

Posted by: Lando at August 11, 2013 09:03 AM (5FlIV)

200 I gotta disagree with the horde here about Spacex. That is some hot shit technology and I would rather see private industry developing it than NASA. Nothing wrong with NASA except it has been overwhelmed by government to the point it can't do things fast like in days of old. Spacex is evolving their rockets very rapidly. They have switched from the "tic tac toe" to the "octo-web" engine configuration virtually overnight in anticipation of flying a booster that will return to land on the ground on retractable legs! Holy shit, NASA couldn't do that in 10 years! And don't get me started on the Falcon Heavy.

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at August 11, 2013 09:03 AM (qIFL7)

201 And property taxing churches is neither a hindrance to the "right" or "left" nor a help to either one.  Do not confuse religion and politics.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 09:03 AM (lZvxr)

202 Neu up

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at August 11, 2013 09:03 AM (GBWQj)

203 Yeah, if you think those Churches would be open 5 years after the tax went into effect, you're being dense.

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 09:03 AM (ZshNr)

204 yes, you are stupid.

Posted by: Vic at August 11, 2013 09:04 AM (lZvxr)

205 Taxes are politics.

Posted by: Lincolntf at August 11, 2013 09:04 AM (ZshNr)

206 Resolved then, that churches should pay either income or sales tax instead?
Every divinity school will have a minor in tax accounting. Successful corporations never show a profit. Prophet. What have you.

Posted by: comatus at August 11, 2013 09:06 AM (JNUY4)

207 "I gotta disagree with the horde here about Spacex. That is some hot shit technology and I would rather see private industry developing it"

I would rather see private industry developing new technologies with PRIVATE MONEY, thank you very much. This is just more venture socialism.

Posted by: torquewrench at August 11, 2013 09:07 AM (gqT4g)

208 What made a PC a "PC" wasn't patentable stuff, it was the copyrighted stuff like the defined set of BIOS functions.

But it was only the specific IBM code that was copyrighted.  Data areas and their layouts in memory were NOT copyrightable.

IBM vigorously defended the BIOS code.  There was a whole team of IP lawyers in Boca who made sure none of the clone vendors had simply duplicated the IBM code.  They had a suite of BIOS scanning tools that looked for identical matching code

Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at August 11, 2013 09:08 AM (di+Lf)

209 You are now banned from all our events and websites forever, and we're alerting Slate and the SPLC.

Posted by: Jon Scalzi at August 11, 2013 12:22 PM (d7tB2)

 

Bring it.  You're an idiot, and Old Man's War sucked.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at August 11, 2013 09:14 AM (lr3d7)

210 torquewrench, if getting things to space costs less now, then Musk might be doing some good work in that regard.  But does it? 

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 09:16 AM (Iyg03)

211

Time to just let it burn and winner take all...

Perfect for me as I close it down for 5 hours horizontal before another 17 hour day on the hamster wheel......2014?....More Cheeze-Wiz colored Blue leading up to the second coming of Clinton cept the Holographic VayJay version this time.....Fuckin-A!!!....what's not to look forward to......

Sad for my kids though..........

Posted by: Richard...who cares at August 11, 2013 09:20 AM (UJfzv)

212 I would rather see private industry developing new technologies with PRIVATE MONEY, thank you very much. This is just more venture socialism.

Posted by: torquewrench at August 11, 2013 01:07 PM (gqT4g)


SpaceX have a contract with NASA, they are delivering. I don't see much of a problem.... Compared to truly crony shit like Solyndra.

Posted by: KG at August 11, 2013 09:22 AM (IPz9m)

213 Here's another "swimmers puppy" video: http://goo.gl/uJZEFS Apparently, these dogs respond quickly to a little therapy, i.e. swimming, massage, encouragement. Definitely worth saving.

Posted by: waldo at August 11, 2013 09:24 AM (tCBZk)

214 a real space program, it MUST eventually be driven by private money. -- It's happening already, a variety of privately funded consortiums and space travel projects. The NASA "friendly science" initial purpose instituted by Ike facade has worn away, revealing its tax-funded rationale being military advancements within the military-industrial complex leading towards wars for corporatist profits at taxpayer financial expense. We built the skylab space station with US tax dollars. As per international cooperatives, what a bunk whether regards military cooperatives with NATO members on bombers or spacelab (or satellite/missile defense) cooperative with whomever else puts up finances. This month's issue of The Air Force Magazine features an article exposing the intrinsic failings from having entered into co-ops on defense projects. "Out of Joint," by John A. Tirpak, executive editor, August 2013, pages 24-29. "Joint defense acquisition programs have a poor track record....racking up significant cost increases, schedule delays, and trouble during testing. Joint programs were touted as the only way to go in acquisition. Why have they caused such heartburn?"

Posted by: panzernashorn at August 11, 2013 09:24 AM (MhA4j)

215 The Telegraph link has a picture of Egon (implicitly contemplating subjects of the complexity and importance of String Theory ... or looking like a chimp, contemplating how a doorstop works), and this quote: "The mercurial, fictional character of Tony Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr in the Iron Man films, is reputedly based on him. So when Mr Musk, 42, ..." 42 years ago; 1971. Wiki indicates that Iron Man " made his first appearance in Tales of Suspense #39 (March 1963).", about 8 years before Egon was born. {emphasis mine} Also from wiki: " In 1963, Lee had been toying with the idea of a businessman superhero. He wanted to create the "quintessential capitalist", a character that would go against the spirit of the times and Marvel's readership. Lee said, I think I gave myself a dare. It was the height of the Cold War. The readers, the young readers, if there was one thing they hated, it was war, it was the military....So I got a hero who represented that to the hundredth degree. He was a weapons manufacturer, he was providing weapons for the Army, he was rich, he was an industrialist....I thought it would be fun to take the kind of character that nobody would like, none of our readers would like, and shove him down their throats and make them like him....And he became very popular."

Posted by: Arbalest at August 11, 2013 09:32 AM (FlRtG)

216 It's ludicrous to argue that we're not going to spend government money to buy hardware and services from private vendors. That's what NASA is doing with SpaceX. In case you don't recall, that's what NASA's done pretty much forever. Who built the Mercury capsule? Who built the rockets it flew on? TCP/IP was done for DARPA by a consulting firm 45 years ago. The first three decades of Boeing's existence in commercial aircraft manufacture were funded by selling aircraft to the Post Office, the War Department, they got the money to build jet airliners by selling the design to the USAF as a tanker.

Posted by: JEM at August 11, 2013 09:33 AM (o+SC1)

217 I don't want another subway... I demand my flying car! Popular Mechanics promised the future would have flying cars in at least one issue every year of my youth, and I'm gettin' past the sell by date here. Besides, that half hour journey between LA and New York would be three hours once the TSA's groping is factored in.

Posted by: thCork at August 11, 2013 09:38 AM (I3ZHb)

218 SpaceX is real and aims to provide a more economical second source for military launches - provided they can meet reliability requirements and maintain their cost advantage. United Launch Alliance has had a de facto monopoly, just like Electric Boat did for many years with boomers and attack boats. US electric cars are fueled 1/3rd by coal, 1/3rd by fossil fuel (almost all natural gas) and maybe another 1/6th by nuclear - not the most virtuous mix by hard-core greenie standards, but fine with me provided car subsidies are yanked ASAP. As for the hamster tubes, what a terrible idea.

Posted by: chuckr at August 11, 2013 09:53 AM (UGxsK)

219 Pneumatic Trains? Where's my damn jetpack? I was promised a jetpack in the future.

Posted by: "Red" Foreman at August 11, 2013 09:56 AM (FlRtG)

220 I guess Northrop Grumman, Lockheed, General Dynamics, ARINC, McDonnel Douglass, Booze Hounding Hamilton are not private companies either, even though they all share the same single customer that makes or breaks them.

Posted by: steve at August 11, 2013 09:59 AM (RE3Oo)

221 rdbrewer, I think you are overly hard on Elon Musk. Tesla is profitable, and their business plan is sound... if the subsidies on electric cars disappeared tomorrow, they would be okay. And SpaceX is a commercial business; the US government buys launch services from SpaceX, but that's what I want to see. Tesla's business plan is simple genius: first, make an expensive toy for the rich, and make a profit doing it. Then, use what they learned to make a less-expensive car. A Tesla Model S is still far too expensive for my humble budget, but it's competitive with other luxury sedans like ones BMW sells. The tax breaks certainly help (how could they not?) but Tesla would still sell these cars even if the price went up a bit. I expect Tesla to repeat its plan, and make yet another car design that yet again is much less expensive, and actually be competitive in the mass car market. Once Tesla is trying to compete with Ford and Honda, then that tax credit will make a huge difference. (There is a much bigger difference between $20,000 and $27,500 than between $70,000 and $77,500!) But Tesla isn't a company that was founded on the tax credit. Companies like Solyndra were never, even in a fever dream, profitable absent government money; Tesla actually builds stuff people want to buy. As for SpaceX, my hopes go with them and the other commercial launch companies. Big government kept stepping on commercial launch, and it was the Reagan administration that made an effort to promote commercial launch. I'd love to see six or more different launch vehicles being operated by different companies, all flying. I want to see space technology advance and progress and get less costly, and competition is the way to do that.

Posted by: mr_jack at August 11, 2013 10:01 AM (P0N+7)

222 "29 Space-X is a scam that hires some clever engineers but Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites is the company that continually advances the science of flight.

Posted by: Mr. Dave at August 11, 2013 11:49 AM (igImj)"

From this and other comments, it's clear that most posters on AOSHQ know zip about the space program. Don't get me started on Branson's ridiculous devotion to hybrid rocket engines, which has likely delayed SpaceShip II by over a year. And I won't defend Tesla, which I think is a case of corporate welfare for rich people.

SpaceX has developed the Merlin 1-C and 1-D engines, the Falcon I and Falcon 9 (and soon the Falcon Heavy) on its own dime. On top of that, they began the development of the Dragon with their own private resources. All of this was done for less money than it used to cost NASA to launch a single shuttle. Most of the manifest for Falcon launches is for private companies or foreign governments (first Falcon 1.1 is for Canada out of Vandenberg and they just signed with the Germans for two launches.

Now SpaceX does have a contract to supply 12 cargo launches to ISS. They've hit all of their milestones and have already had 2 official cargo runs. For somewhat more money, Orbital Sciences will do 10 cargo runs, with no cargo return capability, for MORE money than SpaceX is getting. The whole SpaceX contract is for less than half of the real cost of a shuttle launch (not a shuttle, mind you, just a launch). NASA is getting an order of magnitude more from SpaceX than any of their internal designs since at least the Gemini Program.

Now what we really need is for Congress (including the pork-barrel socialist GOP reps and sens) to cancel the SLS (sometimes referred to as the Senate Launch system), which has no payloads, no place to go and will likely launch once every 2 years a couple of giga-bucks (if it ever flies at all, which I doubt), and put this money into Commercial Crew and developing the techniques at ISS for in-Space construction/repair and fuel depots. That plus Falcon Heavy will get us anywhere in the inner solar system for pennies on the NASA $. For robustness, also send some money to Sierra Nevada and even (cough cough) Boeing for the CST-100. LockMart's Orion is a turkey that will likely never be used.

And for fans of Branson, I suspect Jeff Greason at XCOR will likely have the last laugh.


Posted by: MichiCanuck at August 11, 2013 10:12 AM (1X4a6)

223 Sheesh.  I thought moron was a term of endearment, but some of the above really fit the bill.  +1 to mr_jack.  If you check SpaceX's launch manifest, there are more private launches than government.  He's strongly considering building a private launch facility on the gulf coast in TX.  Musk did a good bit of the development work on the Falcon 1 on his own dime.  Do you really want the NASA jobs program to develop their own launch system?  They are and it's a mess. 

Posted by: Shredder at August 11, 2013 10:18 AM (wVB6Q)

224
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225
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Posted by: mercy at August 11, 2013 10:32 AM (TcJtp)

226 I think Elon's reputation is way overblown but in terms of SpaceX everyone should keep in mind that the US went from NASA running space launch for ten times the normal cost to letting contractors like Lockheed Martin run launch for five times the cost.  What SpaceX is doing is employing the newest technology to provide launch at twice the cost. 

Most government contracting isn't measured by pouring money down a rat hole, its measured by how much and what kind of performance you get back.  In that completely perverse equation, SpaceX is actually a bargain. 

Posted by: Kaisersoze at August 11, 2013 10:47 AM (mUY87)

227 Have you seen the tesla motors cars?  They are awesome.  I'm hoping they actually work and endure the long haul.  The fact that you can sell them in a store in the mall, down from the Apple store, is a huge plus.  If they stand the test of time everyone will want one.  I loved sitting in it and I loved looking at the way it's made.  They actually had one out there, open and pulled apart, and I was with some engineers so I really had a treat.  They actually explained to us each part how it works and why it works. 
The cars are sleek and sexy so I'm hoping they come down to a price I can afford and that they eventually don't have a long waiting list.  There were actually people in the store ordering their cars on computers while we were there.  They will change the whole car selling market if their model succeeds.

Posted by: caustic at August 11, 2013 11:02 AM (/b8+5)

228 Depending on how you look at it... if the government is trying to give money away, a smart guy is going to be trying to figure out how to be the one who gets it. The government ought to stop trying to give money away in order to bribe smart guys into making electric cars. As for the other "train" thing... I listened to the "hangout" with Musk and Branson. I wish I had a transcript of Musk tearing apart the moronic notion of "high speed rail" where billions of tax money goes to build something no one in their right mind would use because it's simply not convenient and it's not *fast*. Anyone in their right mind, he said, would just fly. And about flying he said he hated that there isn't a supersonic passenger jet any longer. The future, he said, ought to get *better*... not worse. And the future has been getting worse rather than better. We're going slower rather than faster. I don't much care for government subsidies on everything, but I did like his idea that the future ought to at least represent *progress*.

Posted by: Synova at August 11, 2013 11:05 AM (7/PU+)

229 One of the questions for Branson on the hangout was, IIRC, are entrepreneurs morally obligated to "give back" and enrich the community around them... and while I sort of wish he'd outright said that businesses do that simply by being in business, what he did say wasn't so bad. He said that, yes, sure... but first you have to make your business work, you have to first stay in business so your focus has to be on the business before anything else. And after you've got that down solid you will find yourself in a position to give to the community. So, not great, but not bad.

Posted by: Synova at August 11, 2013 11:13 AM (7/PU+)

230 He's strongly considering building a private launch facility on the gulf coast in TX.

I wonder how much that will cost taxpayers.  Because I'd bet real money Musk isn't using his own.

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 11:25 AM (Iyg03)

231 Follow it in the Waco Tribune I think.  Likely some tax breaks from the locals and state; no different than other local business incentives.  I don't think the Feds are funding any of it.  It is hard to reach the space station orbit from that location.  Lots of different considerations.

Posted by: Shredder at August 11, 2013 11:30 AM (wVB6Q)

232 Mr. Jack: Tesla's business plan is simple genius: first, make an expensive toy for the rich, and make a profit doing it. Then, use what they learned to make a less-expensive car.

Tesla lost $30 million in the last quarter.

I'd feel more comfortable if he was risking his own money.

Oh, yeah.  Notice that the plan is to use solar power?  Gee, I wonder where they would get miles and miles of solar panels.  Where on Earth could they get that?  And I wonder if there will be a competitive bidding process.  Or will SolarCity be selling panels to the subshuttle at a tidy, inflated profit?

Convenient, eh?

The subshuttle will never be cost effective.  Tunneling for miles, lining it, superconductors with some kind of liquid nitrogen plumbing system, and shuttle tech and shuttle stations built from scratch.

Don't get me wrong: a lot of people will make a lot of money.  But the shuttle won't.  And the taxpayer who undertook the risk won't.

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 11:34 AM (Iyg03)

233 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

rdbrewer, I've followed your posts on here and really respect you, but
you have got SpaceX really wrong.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


There is a subculture of HIGHTLY anti-government, pro-free enterprise space engineers that have been TRYING to get out into space for decades, and NASA has been ACTIVELY BLOCKING them.  Literally sabotaging them.

Musk is one of the first who has over come this, by hook or by crook.  His flights are CHEAPER than NASA could make them, CHEAPER than Russia could make  them, and CHEAPER than the Chinese could make them.

Not only are we getting our money back, we are actually gettin MORE back than we would be getting if NASA had directly operated those flights the old fashioned way.  

I've pretty much got the suspiscion that Elon Musk is blending in, so as not to make waves and be a target.  He is a REALLY smart guy.

This upcoming week is the 20th anniversary of the DC-X, the private space vehicle that almost made it, but was scuttled by NASA.  

http://dc-xspacequest.org/

They also wanted to have the government subcontract out space launches to their  private company.  Reagan was very supportive; it got started by people that were involved in SDI.  The idea of subcontracting formerly bloated NASA launch operations is a very very right wing idea.

Did you not see this Bill Whittle video that outlines the difference between the cost-plus crony capitalist NASA gravy train of the past, and the new type of  contract that SpaceX is adhering to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h_d6YVA1Kg

Also, be aware that there are many engineers that are still riding on the Boeing crony-capitalist gravy train, and posting lots of trash about SpaceX.

Posted by: Felt Wrapper at August 11, 2013 11:58 AM (ecmD4)

234 145 If a flat tax with no deductions or exemptions is instituted, the churches will be taxed too. This also means your church. Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at August 11, 2013 12:29 PM (d7tB2) No income taxes.

Posted by: HoboJerky, Hash Hunter at August 11, 2013 12:11 PM (X4HxX)

235 Felt, I'm worried about hundreds of miles of tunnels.  To the extent Space-X is saves us money, I'm grateful.  Maybe it is a perverse bargain, as Kaisersoze says. 

But this high speed tunnel train will be a boondoggle.  Tesla is costing us money, and so is SolarCity.  

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 12:16 PM (Iyg03)

236 "Tesla Motors Earns $26 Million in the 2nd Quarter—Thanks to the Government"   http://tinyurl.com/kueay5o

--via @coondawg68

Posted by: rdbrewer at August 11, 2013 12:20 PM (Iyg03)

237 This is precisely why Elon Musk is the perfect man to head NASA no matter who wins in 2016. . Think about it. No, more than that. See? . Mew

Posted by: acat at August 11, 2013 12:52 PM (gGEmy)

238 233 145 If a flat tax with no deductions or exemptions is instituted, the churches will be taxed too. This also means your church. Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at August 11, 2013 12:29 PM (d7tB2) First, WHAT church? Don't have one. Second, so what? A bunch of fucktards in the northeast lose their tax credits? Cry me a river! Mew

Posted by: acat at August 11, 2013 12:54 PM (gGEmy)

239 Jeez, what's with the Musk hate? That article was about as fact-based and fair as something from FireDogLake. That passage about SpaceX alone should have disqualified it from moron consideration.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at August 11, 2013 01:30 PM (8lDWO)

240 #238: I'll second that.

The linked article in regards to SpaceX is total BS. Musk bankrolled it with his own money and is delivering launch services for less than the cost of a DeltaIV or AtlasV (which were *completely* funded by gov't dollars).
And this is just empty-headed polemics: "There isnÂ’t much serious research to demonstrate that the pent-up demand Musk postulates really exists, nor that the price reductions he foresees are feasible."

Well, there's this Futron Corp. study: http://www.futron.com/upload/wysiwyg/Resources/Reports/Space_Tourism_Market_Study_2002.pdf
And here's a handy reference to compare launch costs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_launch_systems
Granted it's Wikipedia but I don't think they're wrong here.

What's going to drive costs down is reusability: http://www.spacex.com/news/2013/06/14/grasshopper-completes-highest-leap-date
By Musk's own admission, it's his ultimate measure of success: if they can't make fully reusable launch vehicles work, he'll consider SpaceX a failure. If it works, the Falcon 9R is going to be space travel's equivalent of the DC-3.

I don't like Musk's politics either, but SpaceX is a legit enterprise that has the potential to open up a whole new economy if it's successful.

Posted by: Chilly at August 11, 2013 02:03 PM (GUJtB)

241 Yeah, this was some really dumb commentary on SpaceX.  Say what you want about the other companies, but SpaceX developed their first launch vehicle and first three rocket engines on entirely on private money.  When the hell has Boeing, Lockheed, or any of the other major aerospace contractors ever done that?

As far as the comment on patenting the IBM PC, ALL inventions are based on combinations of known elements, i.e. existing technology. 

This isn't one of the better AoSHQ posts I've ever read.

Posted by: thirteen28 at August 11, 2013 02:07 PM (IHjpu)

242 240:  On the topic of SpaceX being only Elon's money - it wasn't.  The Air Force helped with the early efforts both with direct funding and with access to USAF facilities, know how, etc.  It wasn't just SpaceX, it was others like XCOR as well.  SpaceX did it better however and Elon did put in most of the money.  SpaceX deserves the bulk of the credit.

I know one of the guys that supervised those early contracts, he is an employee at The Aerospace Corporation.  We were talking about the success of SpaceX about a year ago and were talking about those very early days.  I asked him if some parts of the USAF and NASA looked at SpaceX as competition and he was almost offended.  He said the consensus view from the Air Force side is that this was a capability the Government desperately needed and had partnered in the develop of - but SpaceX had executed the engineering extremely well. 

Posted by: Kaisersoze at August 11, 2013 02:21 PM (mUY87)

243 22 The mercurial, fictional character of Tony Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr in the Iron Man films, is reputedly based on him.

Iron Man debuted in 1963.  When did Musk peddle his first bottle of snake oil?

Posted by: MSNBCBSABCNN at August 11, 2013 02:53 PM (qvify)

244 Sorry I missed this thread. Personally, I don't care much about Tesla, SolarCity, or the tube thingy. But SpaceX is the real deal. As a child in the 60s, I was a bona fide space nut. I remember playing hooky from school to watch Gemini launches. Of course I was glued to the TV watching the coverage of the Apollo moon landings. I followed Space Shuttle flights for 30 years. I didn't pay attention to SpaceX at first. They made five launches of their small Falcon 1 rocket between 2006 and 2009. Three failures were followed by two successes. In June 2010, they attempted to launch their much larger Falcon 9 on its first test flight. The countdown reached zero, the first stage engines ignited, and were shut down by the flight computer. They safed the vehicle, figured out the problem, recycled the countdown, and successfully launched about 90 minutes later. THAT woke me up. I had never heard of an ignition abort followed by a successful launch on the same day. Then, on December 8, 2010, SpaceX launched its first test flight of the new Dragon capsule. It was only the second flight of the Falcon 9 rocket. It was just a short two-orbit flight to test the Dragon's basic systems, such as maneuvering thrusters and parachutes. I watched the launch live, and followed the flight as best as I could from reports on the internet. Afterwards, I saw a number of comments saying, "Two orbits and a splashdown? So what? NASA did that 50 years ago with Project Mercury." But I was thrilled by the flight. I knew it was just the beginning. SpaceX then spent almost a year and a half developing Dragon as a cargo vehicle for the International Space Station. The next flight came on May 22, 2012, after another ignition abort three days earlier. I got up at 3:00 AM on a work night to watch the launch, then took a vacation day a few days later to watch the approach and berthing. That flight made me feel like a kid again. Today I am much more excited about SpaceX than I ever was about the Shuttle.

Posted by: rickl at August 11, 2013 05:27 PM (sdi6R)

245 Yes, there has been some government money going to SpaceX, but not nearly as much as has gone to such traditional contractors as Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and ATK. The ISS is a huge investment, and there are live astronauts on board. NASA can't just have any Tom, Dick, or Harry firing rockets at it. Much of the development money for Dragon was to ensure that its berthing and hatch system was compatible with the ISS, and that it could be controlled while in the vicinity of the station. That doesn't happen automatically, and it isn't free. Today there is some public money going to develop the crewed version of Dragon. But again, not nearly as much as is being spent on Lockheed Martin's Orion capsule. And don't even get me started on the SLS monstrosity. SLS stands for Space Launch System, but it is derisively known as the "Senate Launch System", because Congress is forcing NASA to build it. It has also been called the "Rocket to Nowhere", because it will suck up so much money that there won't be anything left over for a payload or a mission. We've spent almost 60 years dumping first stages into the ocean, or on the steppes of Central Asia in the case of the Russians. Meanwhile, SpaceX is trying to figure out how to bring back their first stage and fucking land it for refurbishment and reuse.

Posted by: rickl at August 11, 2013 05:56 PM (sdi6R)

246 The government is paying SpaceX to do stuff that the government would be spending money on anyway, except for lots cheaper.

Does it really make you mad that the feds pay Xerox for copiers instead of having a special Government Bureau of Copying Devices with an annual budget of umpteen billion?  No?  Same thing.

And Musk isn't  trying to make any money off the hyperloop idea at all.  He's asking some other company to take the idea and run with it, since he's maxed out with enterprises already.

As for Tesla, yeah, I got nothing.  The only defense I have there is that the Obama admin was going to spend billions on stupid stuff anyway, if I could figure out a way to sell 'em that stupid stuff, I would.  Which is what Musk is doing.

Posted by: Emperor of Icecream at August 11, 2013 07:26 PM (ywVGN)

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