1 Thanks, DIT.

2 Conspirasay

3 My uncle, Theodore Conrath, went in with the Marines (he was a South Dakota National Guard infantryman).

He rarely talked about it, and when he did, the pain of remembering was visible on his face.

4 2 Conspirasay

Posted by: Rawn Paul at February 09, 2013 02:30 PM (8HhF2

Reading at the Marine Corps Times yesterday about Dakota Meyer's asking Luap Nor to apologize for his disgusting comment about Chris Kyle, and the Paulbots came out in force calling Dakota "stupid" and Chris Kyle a "coward."

Deranged idiots.

5 Met Mitchell Paige a couple of times when I was stationed out at 29 Stumps. Really nice, humble, patient gentleman who would answer as many questions as he was asked, no matter how many times he had answered them before.

6 He rarely talked about it, and when he did, the pain of remembering was visible on his face. My dad was in the Pacific and he never talked about it. In his things was his old passbook from a bank in Australia, they went there for leave. I hope the Aussies showed him a good time.

7 Dave in Texas,

I can answer that question.

They were the product of 2,000 years of Western civilization, ruthlessly selected by politics, war, nature, culture and some luck.

America was the beneficiary of that selection, and these men were the best America produced.

8 Posted by: madamex at February 09, 2013 02:35 PM (+kvQd)

A toast to your dad and my uncle!

9 3 My uncle, Theodore Conrath, went in with the Marines (he was a South Dakota National Guard infantryman). He rarely talked about it, and when he did, the pain of remembering was visible on his face. ~~~ A couple great-uncles were in the North Dakota NG, who went to Guadalcanal. The younger of the two had a harder time of it, I was told. I talked to the older brother about it once, who was quite pleased to have gotten home in one piece.

10 CBD, *clink*

11 Posted by: fluffy at February 09, 2013 02:41 PM (xWXuI)

I wrote SD NG, but he was born in Mandan ND, so I am going to check.

12 Guadalcanal, it was near run thing.  But again proved who manages to hold out just a little bit longer wins.  Lots of men died and were wounded in that stinking fetid hellhole that they had never heard of.

The battle also taught the US military that if they took each island the Japanese held it would be 1947 or so before they invaded Japan.  So a strategy of island hopping was implement.  To take islands where either the Japanese were not or they lightly held.  This strategy also allowed the US to husband its scarce resources.  In February 1943 the US Navy still only had two carriers - Saratoga and Enterprise as Essex was not due until the middle of the year.  Hence the advance uf the Solomon Islands and to isolate Rabual would be carried out under land based air cover. 

Japanese resources were also stretched thin.  Their naval construction program was not geared to quickly replace their loses.  The savage battles around the Solomon Islands had cost them a battleship, cruisers, and destroyers.  Plus the aerial battles drained their pools of trained Navy and Army pilots while the jungles and diseases of Guadalcanal devoured the soldiers.

Midway turned the tide of battle against Japan.  Guadalcanal and the Solomon Islands ensured the Rising Sun was on the decline.  Further proof would come on April 18, 1943 when USAAF P-38 Lightnings taking off from Guadalcanal intercepted and killed the architect for Pearl Harbor and Midway - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto.

13 All I can say is, thank God that such men existed, and still exist. As small and as unworthy as it is, you gentlemen have my and my family's undying gratitude.

14 Posted by: fluffy at February 09, 2013 02:41 PM (xWXuI)

Yup, ND NG.

15 They are still out there. Honesty. The MSM just doesn't talk about them. They are murders now.

16 Thanks for the toast. Unfortunately he got hepatitis over there. I remember his big story was on the way home he was on a boat with Lew Ayres, the actor. Anyway, I think it effected his health and after a heart attack at 50 he never recovered and I lost him when I was in ealier twenties. He is in my heart forever, for he was a wonderful man.

17 And some of the detritus of battle can still be found in the Solomon Islands.

http://www.ozatwar.com/airfields/kirkwood.htm

18 John Basilone's story, "Hero of the Pacific" is on my night stand.  Nearly finished with Chris Kyle's book.

19 My Dad was there, with Carlson's Raiders.

20 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 09, 2013 02:55 PM (PMCY9) Hi AP, just flipping through those pictures. That was some amazing stuff.

21 Thank you. My late father was a WWII Marine. 1st Marines. Served in the Pacific Theater for 30 months (New Guinea, New Britain, Peleliu). I have to think his character was shaped by his service as well as his upbringing. I will always be so proud and thankful to be his only daughter.

Thank you, again, for posting this. We must never forget their sacrifice.

22 Where do we get such men?

They're still out there.  Steel is forged in fire.

23

Older friend of mine, used to be a docent with me at a Marine aviation museum, was in the New Hebrides (rear area for the Solomons) in October 1942 (volunteered @ 17 for the USMC to get 3-squares and a place to sleep - in November 1941, good timing!).  His buddy was with a USMC squadron up at the Canal.  When the call for replacement volunteers came after the Night of the Battleships and its many casualties, he .... volunteered.  To be with his buddy.  As he says, only something a young man would do.

 

May have told this one before:  short before leaving for the Canal, he was cut under the eye by a coral shard while jack-hammering on some construction project.  Medics covered his eye with a big patch.  When he arrived at the Canal, stepped off the DC-3 transport, the wounded were on litters, lined up to be flown back to Espirito Santo.  One of them, seeing his eye patch, said "gosh, things must be really bad, they're sending in wounded guys as replacements!".

 

He arrived just as the wormy captured Japanese rice was running out as a food supply, and he says he never saw any of the captured sake or beer that was carefully hidden away by the first Marines to take Henderson.  He does marvel at how the pilots did their thing, while suffering the same problems (lack of sleep, dysentery, hunger) as everyone on the ground.

 

One day a guy from Louisiana came in the museum.  He happened to know LeBlanc's son back home.  Jim ended up calling the son, who said he'd rather not put Dad on the line to talk as he was not entirely mentally lucid all the time.  LeBlanc passed away some time after.  Think it was his escape story that was so funny:  shot down over the Slot, he made it to an island, and the natives who took him then traded him to another group that was working with an Aussie coast-watcher (who then got him back to Guadalcanal for more service).  Price:  one bag of rice.

 

As others noted above, "such men" are still out there.  I was honored to be protected by them, up close, during my own time in the field during the GWOT. 

 

In my darkest moments, I reformulate the question thus:  how could such men have such a degraded and undeserving nation as their homeland?

 

I did say my darkest moments ......

 

 

24 They're still out there. Steel is forged in fire.

Posted by: Oswald at February 09, 2013 03:10 PM (5pi9n)

Psshaw.  Fire can't melt steel. 

25 I had two uncles who served at Guadalcanal.  Only one came home.

26 so, on the Whte House web site, does it show a picture of Obama ("Okinawa? Is that anything like Teriyaki..?") with some elderly veterans and a text like "On this day in 1943, Americans won a victory in Guadalcanal. In 2013, President Obama fights the battle for funding for our veterans."?

27 Truly the greatest generation. God Bless you gentlemen for your sacrifice.

28 If we'd botched that landing the island might have tipped over.

29 re 24: so when they buy back guns to melt, am I to believe they can't melt Remington steel?

30 They were the product of 2,000 years of Western civilization, ruthlessly selected by politics, war, nature, culture and some luck.

America was the beneficiary of that selection, and these men were the best America produced.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 09, 2013 02:38 PM (GsoHv)

 

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

 

I beg to differ.  They were evident in Korea, Vietnam, and on through to the brave soldiers standing at the wall today.

 

The WWII vets just had better press.

31 G-d bless them all. Gung-ho and Semper Fi.

32 If you read the histories of the associated naval actions, what's crystal clear is that the USN were completely unprepared to fight the IJN at sea.

The US Navy still thought it was the best in the world even though its weapons were second-rate and its tactical doctrines were ossified. Thousands of sailors are in eternal watery graves as a result of learning the hard way.

There is another such moment coming.

Reflect upon our current Navy. It is a Navy which builds flashy new "warships" to commercial specifications that can't take combat damage. A Navy which says very explicitly that "diversity" is its top priority, instead of its top priority being warfighting. A Navy which takes perfectly good warships halfway through their service lives and scuttles them to make artificial reefs.

This will end up with that unready Navy trying to fight China and paying a horrible price, just as the Navy of 1942 was unready to fight Japan and paid a horrible price.

33 re 30: in some ways they need to be better today. Imagine any GI getting in trouble in WW2 for smacking a captured German soldier who spit at him.

34

Dave in Texas, thanks so much for these posts.  They happen to be right in my wheelhouse of obsessive interest in the WWII Pacific theater, but also important to everyone.

 

AnnaP, I've read that the Solomons was THE meatgrinder for Japanese air, both naval and army.  As pointed out in the book Shattered Sword, Midway was devastating for Japan but not specifically because of the pilots lost, which was less than most people (reasonably) assume.

 

Once again I will recommend Neptune's Inferno by Hornfischer for the amazing story of the naval slugfest surrounding the Guadalcanal land and air campaign.  My favorite quote, reflecting the unbelievable close-quarters at which some of these engagements were fought (like fist-fights in a dark alley):  a sailor manning a radar display on one cruiser, as the US commander allowed the Japanese column to close to very short range before opening fire - "what are we going to do, board them?".

 

Classic, and priceless.

 

 

35 J.J. Sefton interesting that you should mention the phrase 'Gung-ho' in conjunction with the Marines.

The term came to the Marine Corps via a curious route.  Evan Carlson spent time in China with Mao's communist guerrillas.  The term means 'work together' and when Carlson came to the Marines and pitched his idea of building raider units, in training those young men, he would use that term to exhort them to work as a team.  Then the Raiders went into action launching from submarines against remote Japanese held island outposts, or digging in at Midway for an invasion that never came, or in the South Pacific going toe to toe with the Japanese the phrase 'Gung-ho' went with them.  And morphed into what Americans think the term means, someone who is hyped up and very competent in carrying out the mission.  When the Raider battalions were dissolved and absorbed into the regular Marine Corps the phrase transferred to the USMC.

36

torquewrench, to quote Alec Guiness's great line as Prince Feisal in Lawrence of Arabia, "you tread heavily, but you speak the truth".

 

My favorite undocumented, off-the-cuff deep-thinker wisdom re our current military approach is to trash the F35 as a needless sinkhole for precious procurement dollars when upgraded existing platforms (F18, F15, F16) in good numbers with best-in-the-world training and flight hours would be perfectly adequate.  Super-cruise and stealthiness are neat, but probably irrelevant to actual needs and vastly more expensive than the alternative.  And an aircraft can only be in one place at a time, and only on roughly the same maintenance schedule, no matter how super-dooper its technology.

 

The unmanned vehicle revolution - just getting started - only sharpens each of these points.

 

 

37 Never forget more Navy men than Marines were killed during the Guadalcanal campaign. No doubt the living conditions on shore were subhuman, and the fighting bitter. But don't forget that the loss rate on the ships fighting in Ironbottom Sound was tremendous. From the Naval History and Heritage Center, MOH winners including Navy: Second World War, Guadalcanal Campaign, August 1942 - February 1943: Bauer, Harold W., Lieutenant Colonel, USMC, Aviator, 10 May - 14 November 1942 (Posthumous award) Vandegrift, Alexander A., Major General, USMC, 7 August-9 December 1942 Smith, John L., Major, USMC, Aviator, August - September 1942 Bailey, Kenneth D., Major, USMC, 12-13 September 1942 (Posthumous award) Edson, Merritt A., Colonel, USMC, 13-14 September 1942 Munro, Douglas A., Signalman First Class, USCG, 27 September 1942 (Posthumous award) Galer, Robert E., Major, USMC, 1-30 October 1942 Foss, Joseph J., Captain, USMCR, 9 October 1942 - 25 January 1943 Basilone, John, Sergeant, USMC, 24-25 October 1942 Paige, Mitchell, Platoon Sergeant, USMC, 26 October 1942 Scott, Norman , Rear Admiral, USN, 11-12 October and 12-13 November 1942 (Posthumous award) Schonland, Herbert E., Commander, USN, 12-13 November 1942 McCandless, Bruce, Lieutenant Commander, USN, 12-13 November 1942 Keppler, Reinhardt J., Boatswain's Mate First Class, USN, 12-13 November 1942 (Posthumous award) This list does not include Dan Callaghan, for some reason. From Wiki: ^ Frank, p. 598–618; and Lundstrom, p. 456. 85 Australians were killed in the Battle of Savo Island. Total Solomon Islander deaths are unknown. Most of the rest, if not all, of those killed were American. Numbers include personnel killed by all causes including combat, disease, and accidents. Losses include 1,768 dead (ground), 4,911 dead (naval), and 420 dead (aircrew).

38 35 Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at February 09, 2013 03:25 PM (PMCY9) That's why I mentioned it. Anyway, two of the Raiders have extensive segments in "The War" and are well worth the watch. I realize it's Ken Burns, but surprisingly, the series is virtually lefty meme free. I watch it ever Memorial Day and I am sobbing all the way through.

39 I really don't think today's Navy does any kind of decent job whatsoever preparing our young sailors for understanding the loss rates on ships in war, and understanding they must stick to duty. Which makes sense, as the overwhelming part of the Navy hasn't fought a real shooting war since Tokyo Bay, and it shows.

40 America was the beneficiary of that selection, and these men were the best America produced. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 09, 2013 02:38 PM (GsoHv) I know the best and brightest left Europe to be free and the lefttards want to grind back to which their ancestors fled.

41 Imagine any GI getting in trouble in WW2 for smacking a captured German soldier who spit at him.

Imagine a general getting in trouble for slapping a coward.

42 I really don't think today's Navy does any kind of decent job whatsoever preparing our young sailors for understanding the loss rates on ships in war, and understanding they must stick to duty.

Which makes sense, as the overwhelming part of the Navy hasn't fought a real shooting war since Tokyo Bay, and it shows.

Posted by: J. at February 09, 2013 03:34 PM (MWjDw)

They aren't prepared at all.  I was a Naval Aircrewman (SAR), and flew operations off the boat and from FOBs.  The ship's company sailors never had any idea that helicopters could come back with holes in them or blood pooling in the floorboards.  More than one said "but we're in the Navy" when we were offloading. 

Today, ships can avoid combat.  That will not always be the case, and we'll bleed for it.

43 Where do we get such men? Look around you. That's were we get them. Normal people doing extraordinary things simply because these things need doing and if not me, who, and if not now, when? Do what you can, where you are, with what you have. -- Stuff TR Said, Vol I

44 In my darkest moments, I reformulate the question thus: how could such men have such a degraded and undeserving nation as their homeland? Ironically, it is their service which affords their nation the time, freedom and wherewithal to pursue the vices that degrade it. The most accurate observation, overheard during my time in Iraq was, "America is not at war. America is at the mall. The Army and Marines are at war." True then. True now.

45  I really don't think today's Navy does any kind of decent job whatsoever preparing our young sailors for understanding the loss rates on ships in war, and understanding they must stick to duty.

Which makes sense, as the overwhelming part of the Navy hasn't fought a real shooting war since Tokyo Bay, and it shows.

Posted by: J. at February 09, 2013 03:34 PM (MWjDw)

 

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

 

I don't think any sailor or soldier is ever "ready" for massive casualties, until they actually experience massive casualties.

 

Where I  think our soldiers and sailors excel is adapting  their tactics to  give the enemy a taste of massive casualties.  War is nasty.  No one that hasn't experienced it is ready for it, no matter what kind of training they get.

46 "My favorite undocumented, off-the-cuff deep-thinker wisdom re our current military approach is to trash the F35 as a needless sinkhole for precious procurement dollars"

Killing the F-35 would not only be a good thing for the Navy, but for the USAF and USMC.

It is the biggest military aviation procurement disaster in all of history. Inherently flawed in multiple ways. Unable to be put right. Incapable of meeting its design goals. Horribly expensive. Already outmatched by evolving threats.

Yet what's the collective response from the services?

"Criminy, we're in a hole! And it's awfully deep. Not sure we can climb out. And it's boding fair to cave in on us. Well, only one thing to do, boys. Roll up your sleeves and pick up your shovels and... keep digging."

47 *sigh*  I guess I should rise to the challenge.  People focus on the failings of the American Navy at and around Guadalcanal but forget the wider war.  Of when the First Air Fleet raided the Indian Ocean sinking RN warships.  Or down in the Dutch East Indies where US Navy DesRon 29 claimed first victory for the the United States at the Battle of Balikpapan Bay in spite of a really harebrained plan of action from the Dutch ABDA Afloat commander.

48 As much as we talk of the greatness of WWII Vets, let us not forget the most casualties of any war we have ever fought?



The War Between the States, over 620,000 killed.

49 How many people still remember the saga of USS Marblehead or her sister Asiactic Fleet cruisers USS Houston and USS Boise?  Parrot, Edsall, Pillsbury, John Paul, Pope, or Stewart?  Bet none of those ship names ring a bell.

50 The most accurate observation, overheard during my time in Iraq was, "America is not at war. America is at the mall. The Army and Marines are at war." True then. True now. Posted by: Sean Bannion at February 09, 2013 03:40 PM (Pl0xl) There are those of us who remember the sacrifice. Who say the prayers for the troops. Who teach their children to say thank you to the soldiers whenever/wherever they see them. There aren't enough of us, but there are some.

51 Aye Sean, since WWII have the citizens of the US seen such thins as scrap metal drives?  A or B stickers for gas?  Rationed on how much meat to buy a week?  Nope.  The disconnect has been startling.  Hackworth argued for an American foreign legion to fight the wars.  Well with an all volunteer force it seems we have created such judging by the way most of America acts.  Sad ain't it?

52 re 51: gas rationing? Jimmy Carter: Moral Equivalent of War (MEOW)

53 Of the Battle of Guadalcanal, all an awestruck Winston Churchill could write was, "Long may the tale be told in the great Republic."


We are gnats standing on the shoulders of giants.‎

54 We all have it in us to perform these seemingly-impossible feats.  It's just that most of us have not been asked to rise to our innate capabilities since WWII/Korea.

55 Interesting factoid is that the comic GI Joe was based on Basilone's exploits.

56 Mallfly not even close.  The sticker was usually put in the lower right corner of windshields to tell the the folks at the gas station how much gasoline you were authorized.  There were various types from general public 'A' to 'X.'
http://www.cartype.com/pages/3635/gas_ration_stickers

The Carter era rationing in response to the OPEC cut off was nowhere near as organized or specific.  Even and odd days?

57 Re: Greatest Generation...

Lets also not forget that the merchant marines crewing many of the ships went on strike just as the fleet pulled in to start the invasion. Marines had to be held back to take possession of those ships and do all the unloading.

The Greatest Generation had its fair share of scumbags too.


PS. For anyone interested, kindle has a lot of the out of print books available for download. I believe that there's an app that allows kindle books to be read on the PC as well.
"Faithful Warriors", "Strong Men Armed", "Challenge for the Pacific", "Guadalcanal, Tarawa and Beyond", "Battleground Pacific" are all good reads of either the early Pacific Campaign or the war in the south seas in general, and "Lions of Iwa Jima" is a good cover of the Regimental Combat Teams the USMC used in that battle.

Those are the only ones on my kindle atm so can't offer word on any of the others at Amazon.

58 46.   Killing the F-35 would not only be a good thing for the Navy, but for the USAF and USMC.

It is the biggest military aviation procurement disaster in all of history. Inherently flawed in multiple ways...."

***

The Mark 14 torpedo and its Mark VI exploder of early WWII have to be on the short list of the biggest procurement disasters in Navy history.   Can't imagine anything worse than being one of the dozens of American submarine captains who hit their targets only to get no explosion because of a defectively designed and constructed weapon.

Other procurement disasters include pretty much every front line naval aircraft in the inventory in December 1941.  The people who sent brave American aviators to their deaths in the Brewster Buffalo fighter and the Devastator torpedo bomber in 1942 should have been put in jail or shot.

59 If you want to visit the Solomons, I'd recommend doing it this year. RAMSI is keeping a lid on things and it's safe enough to go galavanting around the country with cameras and laptops and such. I'd seriously recommend _not_ visiting Papua New Guinea. Most of the violence in PNG is aimed at locals, but it's not really safe there after dark. Your mugger will be very polite, but he's still going to relieve you of your wallet, camera, and anything else worth more than a dollar.

60 32 If you read the histories of the associated naval actions, what's crystal clear is that the USN were completely unprepared to fight the IJN at sea.

The US Navy still thought it was the best in the world even though its weapons were second-rate and its tactical doctrines were ossified. Thousands of sailors are in eternal watery graves as a result of learning the hard way.

***

Ditto that. 

Napoleon said one big mistake commanders often make is to "form a picture" rather than to face the facts as they actually present themselves. 

The U.S. Navy fit that perfectly and went into WWII intending to fight a caricature of the Japanese.  Instead they got the Zero, the Long Lance torpedo and very skilled night surface warfare fighters.  Read about the Battle of Savo Island for an especially embarrassing and fatal example.

61 Never forget most of the men who served on the 'Canal were US Army. It took 2 (25th and Americal, as well as the CAM (Combined Army-Marine, composed of elements of the 2nd Marines and Americal divisions) infantry divisions and the 2nd Marine division to finish the campaign. And Guadalcanal was not America's first offensive victory in the Pacific war. That was in Papua where a mixed force of US Army and Australians defeated the Japanese on January 21, 1943.

62 Douglas Munro grew up in Cle Elum, Washington and is buried there. In 2002 Michelle Malkin wrote a nice piece about his sacrifice and included the story of that of Munro's childhood friend Army SSGT Mike Cooley- both had gone off to war, only Mike would return alive. For nearly 40 years Mike would, twice a day, walk to Doug's grave to raise the flag in the morning and lower it at dusk. At one time when he had pneumonia, his daughter drove him to do the honors. He passed in 1999 and is buried near Doug.

The Story of Doug and Mike- M Malkin

63 Well the link failed but it is easily searchable.

64

34

Strongly second the recommendation on "Neptune's Inferno".  In fact, there is a terrific review on Amazon.  Terrific.

Thing that struck me was that there is little report of any planning when the USN went up the Slot.  Just poke around and see what we find.  Maybe there was planning, but it wasn't mentioned.   Infantry doctrine for planning a squad-size patrol is considerably more involved than anything Hornfischer--see "Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors" as well--tells us about for the massive surface battles.

Used to have a neighbor, a former Marine, who'd been on the Canal.  Also another Marine who'd been a 40mm gunner on the old New Mexico battleship.  They were discussing regiments and the first guy hauled out his wallet. "I'll show you my regiment."   His wife said, "Oh, George, not that horrible death picture."  It was a picture of the regiment's first cemetery.

As to where they come from:  Somebody said, they just show up.

 

65 As a former Coastie, thanks for the nod toward Signalman First Class Douglas Munro.
Semper Paratus

66 Far and away the best book on the subject is "Guadalcanal" by Richard B. Frank(1990). As for Papua, you can expect to be buggered after you are robbed. It's a native custom.

67 Well one thing we're safe from is either JEF or Hillarah ever getting a military award for valor.