July 27, 2013
— Purple Avenger Last night's ONT linked a story about some guys who got a Prius to break bad and do all sorts of unexpected nasty stuff by farkling it up through the (mandated by the govt BTW) onboard diagnostic port.
Industry apologists will whine that they had to do it with a hardwired connection to a laptop to make the bad things happen, yada, yada, yada.
That's fine, but the OBD ports are typically tucked away out of sight in most cars, so slipping something like an Arduino processor in there tucked up under the dash to do the damage at some prescribed time when a specific set of conditions are met isn't out of the realm of possibility.
The real problem is that the OBD micro-controller firmware even allows an external device to initiate dangerous vehicle actions (like applying brakes, farkling steering, etc) when the vehicle in motion.
The lesson of the past 20 years regarding tech and hacking is this: if something is physically possible then someone with malice in their heart is gonna figure out how, and eventually do it.
Oh my -- more vehicle hacking fun. Some boffin has cracked the remote control keyfob encryption used in a slew of higher end luxury cars.
A British-based computer scientist has been banned from publishing an academic paper revealing the secret codes used to start luxury cars including Porsches, Audis, Bentleys and Lamborghinis as it could lead to the theft of millions of vehicles, a judge has ruled.Problem averted, world saved by the judge, right? Well, maybe not so much...
It emerged in court that their complex mathematical investigation examined the software behind the code. It has been available on the internet since 2009.The industry position seems to be one of stonewall and denial that they have a problem that needs fixing. If owners were aware of this issue, they'd rightly be demanding recalls and retrofits of a more secure system. Since in reality the cat has been out of the bag for 3+ years now, denial may not be the best course of action because: (eastern European hackerz + organized crime = profits). Again:
if something is physically possible then someone with malice in their heart is gonna figure out how, and eventually do it.
In years past, the FDA was kind of in the dark about security vulnerability evaluation of various life critical medical devices, but they appear to be getting on board now that various hackers have exposed numerous vulnerabilities in medical gear out in the field. Having FDA behind a problem seems to help cut through a lot of manufacturer stonewalling and denial.
...Last year, Barnaby Jack, a security researcher with IOActive, showed he could force some Medtronic pumps to dispense fatal insulin doses from up to 300 feet away. He also has a Black Hat talk planned this year on a new vulnerability in wireless pacemakers and defibrillators. Jack said he notified the FDA in both cases.Barnaby was scheduled to give a talk at this years Blackhat Hacker conference in Las Vegas about vulnerabilities in medical devices, but died suddenly a couple of days ago. He was 35yo. BTW, the NSA's Gen Alexander will be giving the keynote at Blackhat on July 31. I see this as a pretty positive thing."It's been primarily positive," he said. "They don't have the expertise on board to be able to make a thorough check, but they're certainly open to hearing about vulnerabilities. They certainly open the right doors for us."...
If you want to be paranoid for the rest of the day, peruse the list of speakers and topics for Blackhat. Here's a small sampling:
- We will demonstrate an example of full software bypass of Windows 8 Secure Boot due to such mistakes on some of the latest platforms and explain how those mistakes can be avoided.
- The vulnerability involves discrepancies in how Android applications are cryptographically verified & installed, allowing for APK code modification without breaking the cryptographic signature [I sidebar'd this one a few days ago]
- The Bad: Bluetooth Smart's key exchange is weak. We will perform a live demonstration of sniffing and recovering encryption keys using open source tools we developed. The Ugly: A passive eavesdropper can decrypt all communications with a sniffed encryption key using our tools
- earn how to build an Android SpyPhone service that can be injected into any application. The presentation will feature a live demonstration of how phones can be tracked and operated from a Web based command and control server and a demonstration of how to inject the SpyPhone service into any Android application.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at
09:12 AM
| Comments (198)
Post contains 770 words, total size 6 kb.
Posted by: dfbaskwill at July 27, 2013 09:18 AM (ndlFj)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 09:19 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: Waldo Truth at July 27, 2013 09:19 AM (tXGg/)
Posted by: d_fitz at July 27, 2013 09:20 AM (enmeq)
FoxB did a segment about this the other day. I also had one of my "on this day" things about the first convicted hacker and how he was non-punished.
Until they get serious and start really whacking these mutts they will keep on doing it. I have recommended that first offense is breaking both knee caps.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 09:21 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: dfbaskwill at July 27, 2013 01:18 PM (ndlFj)
See the link I did this morning where Planned Parenthood is going to have access to those records.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 09:23 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Waldo Truth at July 27, 2013 09:24 AM (tXGg/)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 09:24 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 01:21 PM (lZvxr)
Streamed live online, of course.
Posted by: Country Singer at July 27, 2013 09:25 AM (U22Yw)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:26 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 09:27 AM (/gHaE)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:27 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: rickl at July 27, 2013 09:28 AM (sdi6R)
( gaze into distance )
Let me be clear; we will not listen to those who say we can't do it. We will see great jerbs in wind, solar, and other sustainewable 'sources an' green technologies.
( finger in air )
How? The middle class. Yes, the middle class. THANKYOUGOODNIGHTGAW'BLESS!
( jaunty trot to side of stage, wave, jaunty trot to other side of stage, wave )
Posted by: Pres. Bystander [/i] [/b] at July 27, 2013 09:28 AM (BqDmA)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 09:28 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: Jmel at July 27, 2013 09:28 AM (cfFqn)
Posted by: Waldo Truth at July 27, 2013 09:28 AM (tXGg/)
Posted by: tmitsss at July 27, 2013 09:29 AM (Pa9vP)
Posted by: Burn the Witch at July 27, 2013 09:30 AM (p+XhY)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:32 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: Burn the Witch
I could translate for you, but it would just be a different list of acronyms.
Posted by: Roy at July 27, 2013 09:33 AM (tiOTz)
Posted by: Otis Criblecoblis at July 27, 2013 09:33 AM (IlZPo)
software != hardware. I was watching a program about the Apollo guidance computer, and it apparently had its programs hardwired in by wire and magnets. So you know, injecting malicious code is pretty difficult it would seem.
Posted by: dudenolongerinsantacruz at July 27, 2013 09:34 AM (lUBzJ)
Posted by: rickl at July 27, 2013 09:34 AM (sdi6R)
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at July 27, 2013 09:34 AM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 09:35 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at July 27, 2013 09:35 AM (BqDmA)
Posted by: Cowboy at July 27, 2013 09:38 AM (m5TOl)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:38 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 09:38 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: Burn the Witch at July 27, 2013 01:30 PM (p+XhY)
We need to keep our data in a Lock-Box.....
Posted by: Al Gore at July 27, 2013 09:39 AM (/izg2)
The govt wouldn't let you sell it. OBD is mandated by federal law/regulation.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 09:39 AM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes more nonsense ...... at July 27, 2013 09:40 AM (9bMee)
Soooo...anybody got a translation on the geek slang in the post?
Posted by: Burn the Witch
*rargh!* Fire bad!
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at July 27, 2013 09:40 AM (kdS6q)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:41 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: Cowboy at July 27, 2013 09:41 AM (m5TOl)
That was (well, yours still is) a great car.Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes more nonsense ...... at July 27, 2013 09:42 AM (9bMee)
Posted by: CarolT at July 27, 2013 09:43 AM (z4WKX)
Posted by: Roy at July 27, 2013 09:43 AM (tiOTz)
Things you previously believed to be solid, aren't. Imagine locking the door to your crib and going to the store. Now imagine a burglar who has a magic device that lets them walk right through/ your front door or through the wall to your living room.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 09:43 AM (/gHaE)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at July 27, 2013 09:44 AM (GEICT)
Posted by: Waldo Truth at July 27, 2013 09:44 AM (tXGg/)
who thought it was a good idea to allow control of vehicle systems through an ODB port?
Posted by: Cowboy
I imagine to feed in operating commands during the diagnostic process without having to have someone inside the vehicle pushing pedals and the like. Labor saving, cost reduction, refactoring the paradigm and what not.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at July 27, 2013 09:44 AM (kdS6q)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 09:45 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: Purp
What about a 'kit'? Have the body and frame sent separately from the engine. Drop in the engine, screw on the panels, etc.
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at July 27, 2013 09:46 AM (BqDmA)
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 09:47 AM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes more nonsense ...... at July 27, 2013 09:48 AM (9bMee)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:48 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: Schrodinger's Cat (formerly bigred) at July 27, 2013 09:49 AM (OsheA)
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 09:51 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:52 AM (AO9UG)
Hope your bday was a happy one.
And I totally and utterly believe that happened. Because enstupiding and enfuckening. Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at July 27, 2013 01:44 PM (GEICT)
It was, thank you!
There was a case in PA, though sadly not one our firm handled, where a guy hit a deer and went off the road. He called the cops, the cops showed up, wrote up the report that said, yep, hit a deer. The insurance investigator came out and took pictures that showed fur stuck to the car.
The investigator decided the guy was lying for no reason than anyone could determine and he reported the guy for insurance fraud. The insurance company refused to pay for the vehicle and the poor guy was stuck finishing off paying for that car and walking to work because he couldn't afford another car. Oh and he also had the cops investigate him for insurance fraud though luckily the cops were all wtf he hit a deer are you high to the insurance company.
In the end, what should have been an under five figure payment turned out to cost the insurance company high six figures because the guy filed a bad faith claim against the company and the investigator was an utter unrepentant lying fuck on the stand who told a judge, to the judge's face, that he didn't document any type of evidence of a deer and when the judge said did you take these pictures, the guy lied on the stand in response to that direct question from His Honor. Protip: when it's a bench trial and the judge gets to decide just what the award will be, don't lie to the judge's face.
The appellate decision on that case is kind of hilarious because if you read legalese the appellate court basically says to the insurance company you are lucky we aren't adding another zero on the end of the award for sheer jackassery.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at July 27, 2013 09:53 AM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 01:28 PM (hVt9h)
The drone strike theorists may just intentionally be poisoning the well..
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at July 27, 2013 09:53 AM (AWmfW)
Back in the "good old days", it was fairly common that you could open some other cars of your same make with your keys. There's a relatively limited set of tumbler configurations on those keys, after all.
I saw this work once in a large parking lot at a mall - it's easy to home in on a car that looks like yours but isn't, and the mental dissonance really sets in when your keys actually do open and start it.
Posted by: Fat Guy Sized Spider at July 27, 2013 09:53 AM (OevbG)
Posted by: Fritz at July 27, 2013 09:55 AM (bWoh5)
There's already been problems in operating rooms with robotic surgery systems. The makers of the DaVinci system are getting sued all over the place.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 09:56 AM (/gHaE)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 09:56 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence at July 27, 2013 09:57 AM (LRFds)
Posted by: Otis Criblecoblis at July 27, 2013 09:57 AM (IlZPo)
This is probably why they did that stupid buy back program that wasted a shit-ton of money. One of the reasons, the other being help the unions. Which instead they helped Toyota and other foreign companies.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 09:58 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 09:58 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 09:59 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: Mindy at July 27, 2013 09:59 AM (Z08cx)
Posted by: Fritz at July 27, 2013 01:55 PM (bWoh5)
He will soon be a drunken citizen plowing down kids in his government aid purchased SUV plowing down kids.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:00 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: TC at July 27, 2013 10:00 AM (ygAxO)
I think there's some shit in the works to mandate remote OnStar'ish telemetry a few years down the road.
My 98' Jetta diesel is looking more and more like a long term keeper.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:01 AM (/gHaE)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 10:02 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 10:02 AM (MMC8r)
And how would you keep the safety and emissions folks off your back?
Posted by: Anachronda at July 27, 2013 10:03 AM (U82Km)
Posted by: Anachronda at July 27, 2013 02:03 PM (U82Km)
Put a windmill on top and contribute to the Dems?
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:04 AM (OQpzc)
My 98' Jetta diesel is looking more and more like a long term keeper.
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:01 PM (/gHaE)
Did you see that link I posted a couple of days ago where they have charged a kid with vehicular manslaughter based on the "black box" info in the car?
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:04 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 10:05 AM (AO9UG)
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 27, 2013 10:06 AM (V1ZIU)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 10:06 AM (AO9UG)
Yep. Gonna be a lot more of that shit going on in the future.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:08 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: garrett at July 27, 2013 10:08 AM (fvyjD)
Back in the olden days (early 90s) when crime was so bad in LA, people starting shooting car thieves. I have no problem with it. Cars are expensive and stealing it deprives people of their livelihood
Horse theft was dealt with by hanging back in the Old West, or so I am assured by Mr. L'Amour and his associates. Of course, so were a lot of other things.
Posted by: Grey Fox at July 27, 2013 10:08 AM (uSqr3)
>>> Horse theft was dealt with by hanging back in the Old West, or so I am assured by Mr. L'Amour and his associates. Of course, so were a lot of other things.
You can still shoot horse thieves.
Posted by: garrett at July 27, 2013 10:10 AM (fvyjD)
Broad spectrum jamming. Laser blinding of optics, etc.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:10 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 10:11 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Purp
Oh yeah. Forgot about those. They're pretty loud, aren't they?
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at July 27, 2013 10:13 AM (BqDmA)
Posted by: Mindy at July 27, 2013 10:13 AM (Z08cx)
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:13 AM (S3yfV)
Depends on the engine/muffler. A stock bug engine and muffler wouldn't be too loud
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:14 AM (S3yfV)
We know by now that many tech things we have now, the nsa and fbi had many years ahead because they can fund whatever they want, I wonder how many years ahead they are on controlling cars, medical devices etc.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 27, 2013 10:15 AM (4+FWp)
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 27, 2013 10:17 AM (V1ZIU)
Posted by: Randomized lurker at July 27, 2013 10:18 AM (AnfcZ)
Posted by: WTP at July 27, 2013 10:18 AM (xVT49)
Posted by: Sarahw at July 27, 2013 10:19 AM (LYwCh)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:20 AM (OQpzc)
The last door "lock" command time stamp might be something recorded by the car's OBD. If it is, you could offer that as evidence.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:21 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at July 27, 2013 10:21 AM (GEICT)
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:08 PM (S3yfV)
Yep, it will be interesting to see how it plays out in court. I should have saved a copy of that article so I could follow up on it.
I can see the lawyers asking how can the black box be used when the defense can not cross-examine it.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:22 AM (lZvxr)
It is also stealing their life. Time is money. You take their asset/money, you have actually deprived them of some life or their investment therein.
Which is yet another reason (in the bigger picture) to be hostile toward taxing. Some is a reasonable exchange for civilized community. More than that is depriving one of life.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at July 27, 2013 10:23 AM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 02:20 PM (OQpzc)
Or Asian pilots...
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at July 27, 2013 10:23 AM (AWmfW)
"Raising McCain" will debut on Pivot, a general entertainment network that launches Aug. 1. It's described as a documentary-talk series for viewers ages 15 to 34. McCain will star and serve as executive producer.
Posted by: Captain Hate at July 27, 2013 10:23 AM (87F3p)
I can see the lawyers asking how can the black box be used when the defense can not cross-examine it.
That's retarded, sir.
Posted by: Rachel Jenteal at July 27, 2013 10:25 AM (fvyjD)
Hey Purp.
Medtronic is evil.
That is all.
(No seriously, people think "big pharma is bad" and I say "pish posh, it's not what you think." but Medtronic seems to be on the end of a shitton of scandals that make Pfizer look like a charity.)
Posted by: tsrblke at July 27, 2013 10:25 AM (GaqMa)
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at July 27, 2013 01:53 PM (Gk3SS)
I do love how courts will sometimes slide in that wry, biting humor that you only really GET if you can figure out what the hell they're saying in the first place.
Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/b][/i][/u] at July 27, 2013 10:26 AM (CA2NO)
Posted by: Mindy at July 27, 2013 02:13 PM (Z08cx)
You would have much rather had the Dart with the 340 and a 3:91 rear end. Much better from one stop light to the next, and no black box. Of course the law dogs could hear that Carter 4 Barrel kick in a mile away.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:26 AM (lZvxr)
"Raising
McCain" will debut on Pivot, a general entertainment network that
launches Aug. 1. It's described as a documentary-talk seriBoobs, and More Boobs.es for viewers
ages 15 to 34. McCain will star and serve as executive producer.
***
Raising McCain? I'd a gone with Boobs, Boobs, and More Boobs.
Posted by: WalrusRex at July 27, 2013 10:26 AM (VlXYw)
That no one wants to steal. So, doubly protected.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at July 27, 2013 10:27 AM (eHIJJ)
McCain" will debut on Pivot, a general entertainment network that
launches Aug. 1. It's described as a documentary-talk series for viewers
ages 15 to 34. McCain will star and serve as executive producer.
Posted by: Captain Hate at July 27, 2013 02:23 PM (87F3p)
Same age group that watches Raising Weiner.
Posted by: Temper Tantrum at July 27, 2013 10:27 AM (AWmfW)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 27, 2013 10:27 AM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at July 27, 2013 02:27 PM (ZPrif)
You rang?
Posted by: Barack Obama at July 27, 2013 10:29 AM (AWmfW)
Posted by: Mindy at July 27, 2013 02:30 PM (Z08cx)
My brother had one of those.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:30 AM (lZvxr)
Dropping a nuke on one of those puppies won't kill 'em. Ford Falcons were similar; a high-school buddy ran his without oil, the engine seized up, but after a few quarts of re-claim (used to be able to buy used oil!) were poured in, it ran like a friggin' top.
I would love to find a '60s-era Volvo 544, though. Another car that can't be hurt. Also, no computers, power gadgets or remote-control anythings.
Posted by: MrScribbler at July 27, 2013 10:32 AM (/RIVS)
***
I thought it was the polar bears that were endangered.
Posted by: WalrusRex at July 27, 2013 10:32 AM (VlXYw)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:33 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: WTP at July 27, 2013 10:33 AM (xVT49)
As OBD gets more inclusive about what it monitors (ex. headlight/brake/marker bulb status), people will start using that OBD data to challenge police claims of probable cause for a pullover where something illegal was found.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:35 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 10:35 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: WTP at July 27, 2013 02:33 PM (xVT49)
If you got rid of the public intoxication charge, you could fire half the police and no one would notice.
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:35 AM (OQpzc)
I didn't sell mine. Fast car, can't rust. Decent mileage, stone reliable. Go ahead, laugh.
Posted by: comatus at July 27, 2013 10:36 AM (JNUY4)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 27, 2013 10:36 AM (wR+pz)
Posted by: SamIam at July 27, 2013 10:36 AM (HMI9a)
Posted by: WTP at July 27, 2013 10:37 AM (xVT49)
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:35 PM (S3yfV)
The police will merely invent new and creative probable causes under the "We are the police" exception to the constitution.
Posted by: tsrblke at July 27, 2013 10:37 AM (GaqMa)
Electric fence protection in polar bear country: Good
Electric fence with human sentry watching and approriately armed for polar bear: Better
Not camping in polar bear country at all: Best
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 27, 2013 10:37 AM (BAS5M)
Well, you'd probably know the day after you finished treatment. You'd be feeling pretty bad. And your blood work would be a red flag. Granted that might take a while to detect because blood tests aren't run every treatment, but you wouldn't die right away from blood toxicity.
And if nurses, not techs because they don't know all that much, knew you were on dialysis, they'd look for signs of poor clearance.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at July 27, 2013 10:37 AM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at July 27, 2013 10:37 AM (GEICT)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at July 27, 2013 02:37 PM (GEICT)
Watching Joe Kidd on AMC. Clint ftw.
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:39 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:40 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: WalrusRex at July 27, 2013 10:40 AM (VlXYw)
Posted by: Holden Caulfield at July 27, 2013 10:40 AM (omBWL)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 27, 2013 10:41 AM (wR+pz)
Posted by: Hrothgar at July 27, 2013 10:41 AM (XdnQT)
That one my brother had was a 69. That was the first year they started slowly de-tuning them. It had 10.5:1 compression IIRC. 4 speed manual tranny, no A/C nothing but hot engine and light body.
That little MF was damn hot in the 1/4. He sold it to a guy who liked to race when it had 150K miles on it. Guy took it to the track as was and was racing it in F-stock and doing damn good with it.
What was really a joke was Mopar rated the engine at 275 HP. The insurance companies were not fooled though.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:41 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:42 AM (OQpzc)
But the "blue screen of death" has a different meaning there!
Posted by: Hrothgar at July 27, 2013 10:42 AM (XdnQT)
***
If we would just reach out across the aisle I'm sure we could find some reasonable compromise that would save this country from the middle.
Posted by: WalrusRex at July 27, 2013 10:43 AM (VlXYw)
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 10:43 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: WTP at July 27, 2013 10:43 AM (xVT49)
Posted by: Holden Caulfield at July 27, 2013 02:40 PM (omBWL)
What you mean fool! I drove a surrey with fringe on top. I was in de high cotton.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:44 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: wizardpc at July 27, 2013 10:45 AM (hVt9h)
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 10:45 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Invictus at July 27, 2013 10:47 AM (OQpzc)
Posted by: CarolT at July 27, 2013 10:47 AM (z4WKX)
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:40 PM (S3yfV)
In some respects it's worse.
If you can garner approval for your product and successfully stymie your competition from getting approval you really have no incentive to actually make a good product.
Bribe a few PIs to release some papers with good data and your set to go.
Again, Medtronic is evil.
Posted by: tsrblke at July 27, 2013 10:48 AM (GaqMa)
That's one of the things in the various DaVinci surgical lawsuits. The fucking system was locking up on surgeons in the middle of surgeries and not retracting its robotic stuff when commanded to.
The OR staff had to power off and physically reboot the whole system from scratch to get it responding again.
To me, that's a clear cut hardware design and software issue. Any life critical system needs freaking watchdog timer hardware that can initiate a reset when the software goes braindead. Locking up is not an option in a life critical system...EVER.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 10:48 AM (S3yfV)
Quit stealing my schtick!
Posted by: Juan McPain at July 27, 2013 10:48 AM (eHIJJ)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at July 27, 2013 10:49 AM (GEICT)
TorsionAire© ride, baby!
Also, rust.
Posted by: MrScribbler at July 27, 2013 10:50 AM (/RIVS)
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:48 PM (S3yfV)
BUT BUT it's the FUTURE!
I forgot part 2, part two is brainwashing the public to believe that these things are "teh awesome."
When (if memory serves) the current outcomes are actually BETTER for plain old surgery in the hands or a reasonably proficient person.
I know hospitals that are trying desperately to avoid the Da Vinci robots, but are being more or less brow beat into buying them by hospital boards and patients caught up in the "medical arms race."
Posted by: tsrblke at July 27, 2013 10:51 AM (GaqMa)
You can't beat me on the grade!
Posted by: Dennis Weaver at July 27, 2013 02:41 PM (Ks4nX)
That little red Valiant was a freakin' superhero.
Posted by: zsasz at July 27, 2013 02:43 PM (MMC8r)
Great movie! Duel (1971) directed by Spielberg.
"Come on, car! COME ON, LET'S GO! "
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 27, 2013 10:52 AM (BAS5M)
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:55 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 10:56 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 02:56 PM (lZvxr)
If you see an old mean lady on a bicycle pedaling away outside your window, you might be in a bit of trouble.
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 27, 2013 10:58 AM (BAS5M)
Posted by: Count de Monet at July 27, 2013 02:58 PM (BAS5M)
Not getting the reference but if she is out there in this shit she is a bigger man than I am.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 11:00 AM (lZvxr)
Probably is...when it becomes actually ready for prime time.
Based on what I've read of the DaVinci failures, they essentially rushed tossed together demo hardware into the field as product.
From the pics I've seen the controller appears to be ordinary COTS PC hardware rather than something specifically equipped with the hardware features you'd want to see in a genuine life critical system.
That the robotic arms lacked a manual disengage and retract mechanism for situations where you had total control failure is an egregious oversight that speaks to the rushed nature of the product.
That the arms apparently lack mechanically limited motion constraints (limit switches on motor power, mechanical binding points, etc) and were smacking into patients is also evidence of sloppy design.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 11:03 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: eman at July 27, 2013 11:04 AM (AO9UG)
I can't believe the FDA approved a POS like that. Must have been a heavy Obama contributor and massive crony corruption.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 11:05 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:48 PM (S3yfV)
I worked on several critical systems in a different field, and every time someone left out a watchdog timer function, there was hell to pay because something hung up in a inoperative state.
Posted by: Hrothgar at July 27, 2013 11:06 AM (XdnQT)
Posted by: Billie Burk at July 27, 2013 11:10 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 03:05 PM (lZvxr)
The FDA has long been a problem even before Obama.
It's got a whole host of issues, not least of which the generic approval group is the same as the name brand approval group, meaning the bigger pharma companies stall the approval of generic drugs.
It's a mess and a half to say the least. The FDA needs to be cleaned out, split into a shit ton smaller units and dispersed.
Posted by: tsrblke at July 27, 2013 11:13 AM (GaqMa)
Posted by: tsrblke at July 27, 2013 11:13 AM (GaqMa)
Posted by: Sarahw at July 27, 2013 02:19 PM (LYwCh)
Case in point, the 70's era cars, particularly the muscle cars, were very good in a straight line. In curves, notsomuch. Tree avoidance maneuvers were generally restricted to "stay off the throttle unless you are facing a straight stretch of road."
My 2011 Mustang GT convertible is computer controlled out the wazoo, but UNMODIFIED it will do 13.2 in the quarter with the top down, corners with the BMW M3 even with it's technically unsophisticated live axle rear end, easily and rapidly climbs into triple digit speeds, and gets 22.5mpg overall average while doing it.
This, by the way, is why every car is computerized now; we demand economy and performance and that requires the sort of split second timing and control that mechanical systems cannot hope to achieve. In other words...we got what we wanted, and now we're bitching about it.
Yesterday's performance cars are anything but by today's standards, but human nature requires us to remember all of them fondly I guess.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at July 27, 2013 11:21 AM (yh0zB)
They're slowly getting up to speed on all this computer controlled stuff. Compared to 10-20 years ago, this is all newly charted territory for them.
They're gonna have to hire some different skill sets and staff than they've been used to hiring in the past.
It sounds like they're starting to realize that just passing a set of clinical trials where some device was babysat and trained to jump through the proscribed hoops ain't gonna be enough.
They're gonna have to hire some evil black hearted mofo's who LIKE to make shit break.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 11:22 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s][/u] at July 27, 2013 11:24 AM (qyfb5)
With any tile, the first thing is: do you have a genuinely flat wall to attach it to. You can get some long Aluminum straight edges at HD. If it ain't flat and straight, you'll have to float it out with some compound
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 11:25 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s][/u] at July 27, 2013 11:32 AM (qyfb5)
Most of the FBW systems I've seen described use a double or triple redundant computer system and multiple redundant control buses with different routing through the airframe.
I'd like to see triple redundant. Two primary that cyclically vote on results and commands, and one backup with independently written software (to reduce bug commonality) that that would take control and turn off both primaries if their voting disagrees.
The shuttle used 5X redundant GPC's. 4 designated primary, one backup. IBM wrote the primary software, Rockwell wrote the backup.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 11:32 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s][/u] at July 27, 2013 11:38 AM (qyfb5)
The problem with new cars is you need $100,000 worth of special tools and computerized diagnostic equipment just to lift the hood on one.
Yeah, I had to clean the points and plugs and replace them often in the old cars, but they were a lot damn easier to work on.
And if the points shut you down out on the open highway you clean them and set them with a paper matchbook cover. At least good enough to get you home.
Posted by: Wyatt slug Earp at July 27, 2013 11:41 AM (lZvxr)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile at July 27, 2013 03:38 PM (qyfb5)
What, are you implying that the world is NOT run by alien lizards?
Posted by: Hrothgar at July 27, 2013 11:41 AM (XdnQT)
You can pretty easily physically secure a computer, but a car? Not so much, unless you never take it out of a strongly secured garage. Of course that pretty much makes the car worthless.
Unless, of course if you own a "dumb car", say a 1966 Dodge Coronet, you will be immune to attack via something like an Arduino, specially programmed.
Of course, a good old fashioned pipe bomb wired into the ignition circuit would kill you in the Coronet anyway.
Classic Hollywood movie on that point:
Fritz Lang's 1953 pic, "The Big Heat" great film, and aside from an ignition controlled pipe bomb, watch out for the coffee maker.
And if you have physical access, a real simple way to kill someone in a car is shown in Orson Welles' 1958 film, "Touch of Evil"
Bottom line: If the attacker has physical access to your car, he can make you dead very easily.
Posted by: jbarntt at July 27, 2013 11:51 AM (UNFot)
I consider that a given in those type systems, because bug commonality on the primaries could have them voting in unison to execute stupid shit.
Ideally, the final phase of control execution should have an extensive battery of "is this a reasonable command to execute right now" tests too before actually issuing one to actuators.
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 11:53 AM (S3yfV)
Posted by: Schrodinger's Cat (formerly bigred) at July 27, 2013 11:53 AM (OsheA)
Posted by: Arbalest at July 27, 2013 12:00 PM (FlRtG)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith's Other Mobile[/i][/b][/s][/u] at July 27, 2013 12:06 PM (qyfb5)
As far as adjusting points...yeah, no need to do that now. And if all else fails, the computer does have a limp-home mode to fall back on.
I can say that before the tune went in I wasn't enamored of the FBW throttle, but now that it has been tuned that issue is effectively gone.
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at July 27, 2013 12:43 PM (yh0zB)
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/tour/obd-2.html
at least as regards to VW-Audi stuff
Posted by: Purp[/i][/b][/u][/s] at July 27, 2013 12:44 PM (S3yfV)
I think there's some shit in the works to mandate remote OnStar'ish telemetry a few years down the road.
My 98' Jetta diesel is looking more and more like a long term keeper.
Posted by: Purp at July 27, 2013 02:01 PM (/gHaE)
I don't know about the remote part, but the black box recorder is mandatory starting with 2014 model year cars.
Posted by: steveegg at July 27, 2013 12:55 PM (o44nj)
I can't believe the FDA approved a POS like that. Must have been a heavy Obama contributor and massive crony corruption.
Posted by: Vic at July 27, 2013 03:05 PM (lZvxr)
They were getting a head start on PlaceboCare's mandatory death at 65.
Posted by: steveegg at July 27, 2013 12:59 PM (o44nj)
Posted by: occam at July 27, 2013 01:34 PM (dBq7s)
GM is still alive not many morons thought that would happen
Posted by: occam at July 27, 2013 05:34 PM (dBq7s)
It took 74 years for the rot that was the Soviet Union Version 1.0 to die, so what's your point?
Posted by: steveegg at July 27, 2013 02:03 PM (o44nj)
hey Occtard if you have a hypobaric iron lung you can keep Helen Thomas "alive" too
Posted by: Miguel Ambivalence at July 27, 2013 03:02 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: JohnLocke at July 28, 2013 06:28 AM (AeqWm)
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Posted by: Waldo Truth at July 27, 2013 09:15 AM (tXGg/)