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May 18, 2013

Home Improvement -- electrical quandries [Purp]
— Open Blogger

I was replying to someone's question on some forum and couldn't get the freaking captcha shit to work and couldn't post it, so rather than wasting all this typing I did on a perfectly good answer, I'm making it a home improvement post.

The dude in question got red tagged on an inspection and wanted to know why. He had a 12-2 Romex and 14-3 Romex in the same box, and a couple of switches feeding lights. His description of his issue was horrible and didn't actually describe the precise situation, but here we go....

"Regarding new construction wiring and running 12/2 and 14/3 wire in the same box."

Are there two branch circuits here or one?

If one circuit. i.e. lights, If the #14 is going to lights and the #12 is the same circuit from the panel powering the lights (power inbound from panel, power outbound to lights), then you'd be REQUIRED to use a 15A breaker on that circuit.

I'll frequently come heavy out of a panel to reduce voltage drop over long runs, or because of derating issues in a hot attic, then drop down in size as it gets near the loads or dives down into walls. General rule for mixing wire sizes on residential work: breakers/fuses get sized to the smallest wire on a branch. If you're bucks down with a bunch of scraps laying around and don't want to invest in a bunch of new wire, yea, you can mix sizes and use them up if you know what you're doing.

Other than blowing out a box fill requirement(3), there's absolutely nothing in the code that prohibits mixing wire sizes on any particular branch as long as the smallest size wire is big enough for the breaker/fuse and doesn't run into derating issues with pipe fill(1), ambient temperature(2) and such.

If there are two circuits (and two breakers/fuses), say a 20A on the 12/2, and a 15A on the 14/3, that too is permitted, BUT if the two branches land on a device (ex. a split feed receptacle, or a stack switch with the hot interconnect tab busted off making it essentially two completely distinct switches), THEN the 15A and 20A breakers MUST be placed side by side and connected with a "handle tie". Separate circuits that do not land on the same devices aren't required to have handle tie on breakers, but its something I usually do anyway so the next guy has a clue about what's going on. The handle tie is a clue that there's multiple live circuits on devices somewhere downstream.

All grounds in a box must be spliced together regardless of wire size(4). The only exception to this is isolated ground circuits...you won't find too many of those in residential situations.

Another possibility for this fellow getting red tagged is he's become a victim of a new electric code change -- starting with the 2011 NEC, switch loops for lights (which electricians have used for 100+ years) where there's not a neutral wire sent down into the box too have been made illegal. You can thank California and its obsession with occupancy sensors for that one. One state's crazy became a national requirement. The current to run occupancy sensors in a switch loop situation had been using the ground as a way to complete a circuit. The current was only milliamps, but when enough of them got added up on any given circuit, they were causing Arc-Fault breakers to trip. All Arc-Fault breakers include 30ma worth of ground fault protection, so excessive leakage on the ground trips them.

(1) In situations where there's more than 3 current carrying conductors in a conduit consult the NEC derating charts to figure out how much the wire needs to be upsized.

(2) When running wire through abnormally warm locations (like attics) you need to take the ambient temperature into account when sizing wire. There's extensive tables in the NEC covering all the temperature ranges and insulation types.

(3) You can't just jam as much shit as you want into an electrical box. The NEC has specific fill limits requiring a certain number of cubic inches of volume be available for each wire in the box. Those values vary by wire size. Sometimes something will be "book legal" and you'll have problems jamming all the shit in anyway. This happens a lot with GFCI receptacles and dimmers that take up inordinate amounts of space.

(4) All the grounds in a box count as one wire for box fill calculations -- the largest one. If you had say 3 14ga, 2 12ga, and 210ga grounds in a box, all that shit counts as ONE 10ga wire for box fill purposes and gets spliced together. Even though all the grounds only count as one, they can take up a shitload of volume and make stuffing a box a real challenge.

Open circuits, open threads, what difference does it make?

Posted by: Open Blogger at 09:10 AM | Comments (97)
Post contains 835 words, total size 5 kb.

1 Soooo....how do I translate this post into English?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 18, 2013 09:13 AM (GEICT)

2 The electrical code is FAR WORSE than the tax code.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:16 AM (/gHaE)

3 The most probable cause for the red tag was the dude wasn't union, and the inspector munches union peter.

Posted by: Stephana at May 18, 2013 09:18 AM (nfC6Z)

4 Construction codes in general are a Byzantine nightmare. Glad to be a painting subcontractor. Seriously limits that annoyance.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 18, 2013 09:18 AM (GEICT)

5 Magnets. How do they work?

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at May 18, 2013 09:18 AM (5YUSx)

Hey Purp, a lot of folks down here will run their grounds to an outside water spigot. In fact, that was done here at Casa Backwardio, and this place was replumbed with plastic pipe instead of the original copper tubing. As I've talked with some of the long-time residents of this area (they're all condos), I discovered that everyone has been replumbed.

I've wondered if the ground caused pinhole leaks in the copper pipe. Evidence suggests this to be true. If so, then why is it done? Besides the obvious benefit to plumbing companies, that is.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 18, 2013 09:20 AM (+z4pE)

7 Huh?

Posted by: itchytriggerfinger at May 18, 2013 09:20 AM (2KFyP)

8 I'm with Stephana on this one.

Posted by: Bob Mulroy at May 18, 2013 09:21 AM (rQSTQ)

9 Just skip down to the open thread part. Sheesh.

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 18, 2013 09:24 AM (NcPjb)

10 Tbh, PA, I think diagrams help a ton on stuff like this. It can be hard to visualize what's going on.

Posted by: KG at May 18, 2013 09:24 AM (IPz9m)

11 What does all this have to do with Teh Gheys getting married?

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 18, 2013 09:25 AM (jucos)

12 Because diagrams will provide the pep this post needs!

Posted by: Burn the Witch at May 18, 2013 09:26 AM (NcPjb)

13 I always went by the rule that you protect the weakest link. If 14 wire was anywhere in the circuit then I would use a 15 amp breaker.

Posted by: Berserker at May 18, 2013 09:27 AM (FMbng)

14 Wow, two movie reviews on a Saturday.

Posted by: Elizabethe on the phone at May 18, 2013 09:27 AM (GiKhl)

15 The most probable cause for the red tag was the dude wasn't union, and the inspector munches union peter.

A lot of inspectors will give a DIY a hard time if the works is sloppy and full of issues (often the case). They're trying to give a subtle hint that the DIY is in way over their head.

If you did something that's perfectly legal, and whip out your code book (just having one impresses inspectors) and show them how it was legal, they usually back down. If they don't, there's an appeals process. If they get overturned on appeal, that a major black mark.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:29 AM (/gHaE)

16 Translation: 220/221. Whatever it takes. http://tinyurl.com/6xkmwcg

Posted by: USA at May 18, 2013 09:29 AM (VIaw0)

17 I've wondered if the ground caused pinhole leaks in the copper pipe. Evidence suggests this to be true. If so, then why is it done? Besides the obvious benefit to plumbing companies, that is.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 18, 2013 01:20 PM (+z4pE)

I believe my electrical inspector told me I had to ground my copper plumbing pipe and any sections isolated by plastic pipe had to be grounded also.

Posted by: Ronster at May 18, 2013 09:30 AM (sa3Ro)

18 First rule of home improvement: Keep the damn government out of your house. Most people only pull permits for things that can't be hidden, like new construction. Otherwise fix the house and enjoy dinner without ever having to worry about bureaucratic headaches. Other then that, yes, it is bad practice to not size your OCPD based on the smallest conductor being used in a circuit.

Posted by: NotCoach at May 18, 2013 09:30 AM (jU7Af)

19 Circuit Breakers - are they really necessary?

Posted by: Oblivious at May 18, 2013 09:31 AM (XA2k4)

20 I'm surprised Tim Allen agreed to do this movie after the show was off the air so long.

Posted by: Elizabethe on the phone at May 18, 2013 09:31 AM (GiKhl)

21 I'm a big fan of high voltage.

Posted by: Helen Thomas' Vibrator at May 18, 2013 09:31 AM (BBWjt)

22 Like you bastards couldn't check on a fella .....?

Posted by: Zombie Bon Scott at May 18, 2013 09:33 AM (A5Abh)

23 19 Circuit Breakers No you're thinking of short circuit. That horrible movie with ally sheedy and the robot.

Posted by: Elizabethe on the phone at May 18, 2013 09:33 AM (GiKhl)

Crap, now that I think about it, I believe that it was the phone land line that was grounded to the spigot.

Isn't there some small amount of voltage in that line?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 18, 2013 09:34 AM (+z4pE)

25 Why not ask the guy who red tagged it?

Posted by: Up With People at May 18, 2013 09:35 AM (krveP)

26 Shruup ya wankah!!!

Posted by: Alive and Rich Brian Johnson at May 18, 2013 09:35 AM (A5Abh)

27 I've wondered if the ground caused pinhole leaks in the copper pipe.

Its probably due to leakage current on the ground. I've clamped an amp probe on some ground rods where the power to the structure was totally OFF and still read 5-7A.

When someone else has nicked UF or damaged triplex, that shit will travel pretty long distances. Some of it will leak up your grounding system, into YOUR meter, then out through YOUR neutral back to the poco.

Years ago, leakage current of this sort killed a little girl at a public swimming pool. The source of the leak was eventually traced to a sports stadium miles away.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:35 AM (/gHaE)

Yeah, Ronster, your point makes a lotta sense, especially down here where we have a lot of lightning storms. I've been zapped during a storm before, cleaning out a bunch of leaves blocking a gutter downspout.

Let's say, it got my attention.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 18, 2013 09:36 AM (+z4pE)

29 Why not ask the guy who red tagged it?

They are supposed to cite the code section they're busting you on if you ask.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:36 AM (/gHaE)

30 I believe that it was the phone land line that was grounded to the spigot.

The telco does that all the time...they assume the rest of the piping is grounded. But it might not be.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:39 AM (/gHaE)

31 Yeah, who are these inspectors? "Red tag! Why? Figure it out bitch!"

Posted by: Up With People at May 18, 2013 09:39 AM (krveP)

32 Usually inspectors have many years as a journeyman or master electrician before becoming inspectors. Its a nice gig if you can get it.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:42 AM (/gHaE)

Years ago, leakage current of this sort killed a little girl at a public swimming pool. The source of the leak was eventually traced to a sports stadium miles away.

I remember that incident, too. Thanks, Purp.

OK, I'm off, gotta get ready for an early music gig tonite. Y'all have fun and try not to trash the place, 'k?

And remember, if you can't be handsome, you should at least be handy.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 18, 2013 09:42 AM (+z4pE)

34 My vast knowledge of electriciantry had me thinking it would be no problem to cut a live dishwasher line with bolt cutters. It found the breaker!

Posted by: Up With People at May 18, 2013 09:42 AM (krveP)

35 If you don't have all the high tech tools, unplugging the dishwasher, and plugging in a lamp works. Start flipping breakers until the lamp goes dark

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 09:44 AM (/gHaE)

36 And remember, if you can't be handsome, you should at least be handy.

only two implements in your toolbox, eh?

Posted by: fluffy at May 18, 2013 09:45 AM (z9HTb)

37 I'm a DIYer and can say that that inspectors usually don't like DIYers. They will try to trip you up, and if you don't have the right answer for why you did something, they can make life difficult.

Posted by: Ronster at May 18, 2013 09:48 AM (sa3Ro)

38 My vast knowledge of electriciantry had me thinking it would be no problem to cut a live dishwasher line with bolt cutters. It found the breaker!

Posted by: Up With People at May 18, 2013 01:42 PM

yeah unless you had federal pacific circuit breakers. Your dishwasher area would look like it got into a fight with a deathstar.

Posted by: Berserker at May 18, 2013 09:49 AM (FMbng)

39 Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 18, 2013 01:20 PM (+z4pE)

I had to have the main electrical box at ChÃ¢teau de Hrothgar upgraded and the inspectors required two separate ground rods driven in three or four feet and separated by 6 feet. No plumbing connection whatsoever was required.

Posted by: Hrothgar at May 18, 2013 09:50 AM (Cnqmv)

40 "34 My vast knowledge of electriciantry had me thinking it would be no problem to cut a live dishwasher line with bolt cutters. It found the breaker!" Remind me to never have you help me with anything. The major drawback to this method of circuit tracing is that you can potentially damage your conductors. It takes less than a second to vaporize copper in a short circuit when no OPCD is present. Use PuprAv's method he mentioned above in the future please.

Posted by: NotCoach at May 18, 2013 09:51 AM (jU7Af)

41 If you don't have all the high tech tools, unplugging the dishwasher, and plugging in a lamp works. Start flipping breakers until the lamp goes dark Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 01:44 PM (/gHaE) ---- The line was bolted on. But I have worked on live wires before. Its just a little jolt if you make a mistake. Tried putting in a ceiling fan at my daughters. I open the box its in and theres about 6 wires going in to the damn thing. We were using the utmost safety procedures by turning off the light switch but I wasn't so sure all those wires would be dead so I had my daughter hook them up to the ceiling fan. She got the shit shocked out of her. We all laughed, and called an electrician.

Posted by: Up With People at May 18, 2013 09:51 AM (krveP)

42 We are doing a small renovation, and my plumber told me a story about a recent run-in with the inspector in my little village.

Inspector was wrong...plumber was correct. Inspector got all puffed up and righteous. Plumber called state board. Inspector got his dick slapped.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 18, 2013 09:51 AM (O6Tmi)

43 By the way, I have enjoyed the occasional digressions into DIY and tools here at AoS. Hope this becomes a fairly frequent occurrence. Thanks to the appropriate COBs!

Posted by: Hrothgar at May 18, 2013 09:52 AM (Cnqmv)

44 If you don't have all the high tech tools, unplugging the dishwasher, and plugging in a lamp works. Start flipping breakers until the lamp goes dark I use a radio. Since my breaker box is in the garage and could be as far as 70 feet and two stories away, when the sound goes dead I know I hit the correct one. If I'm even the slightest bit concerned, I just throw the fucking main. Appliances can blink 12:00 all they want at me for the next week, I'm still alive. I knew an electrician who 'bit it' working in a attic and some weird combination of confined space, rain, leaky roof, nail and wire with the insulation bitten off by a mouse got him.

Posted by: Regular Moron [/i] at May 18, 2013 10:04 AM (U2UQk)

45 .

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 10:07 AM (/gHaE)

46 Hello...........I know I saw comments here just a second ago and now they're gone. Maybe they're just gone for me, but that's some strange shit. Guess it's time to go fishing........yet another way to avoid yard work.

Posted by: 4TZNh at May 18, 2013 10:08 AM (4TZNh)

47 If I'm even the slightest bit concerned, I just throw the fucking main.

Yep. Can't go wrong there.

Once in a while you find some DIY wired multi-unit structure where some ass had circuits shared between different rental units.

BTDT, got the T-shirt.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 10:14 AM (/gHaE)

48 The comments sometimes vanish until the next comment is posted when a post is updated...like when I added that circuit pic

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 10:15 AM (/gHaE)

49 Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 02:15 PM (/gHaE) That's very informative. I thought it was Andrew's ghost messing with us. I also enjoy DIY posts. I have no knowledge but like reading comments from people who do.

Posted by: Elizabethe on the phone at May 18, 2013 10:21 AM (GiKhl)

50 I have a question...my husband and I are building a lake house for vacationing, etc. Considering a tankless water heater which would have to be run on propane. Any thoughts or advice? Seems to be quite a bit more expensive than a regular hot water tank. I am open for suggestions from someone with experience.

Posted by: 'Ette in training, a striving wannabe at May 18, 2013 10:34 AM (zvxqj)

purp,

What is your opinion on the stab in connectors for recepticles and switches? I always use the screw even though it takes more time.

Posted by: Ronster at May 18, 2013 10:37 AM (sa3Ro)

52 We've gotten stuck on the wrong side of a code change for plumbing, specifically, shower fixtures. It seems that one i not allowed to install separate faucets for hot and cold water anymore here. Only a single faucet is permitted, so fuck you, homeowner who does not wish to undergo yet another renovation to your shower. Fuck you, nanny state code writers, I'll replace like for like myself.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars at May 18, 2013 10:39 AM (WxJTH)

Tankless water heater.

I've never used one myself. My friend installed one and it worked fine. I guess the most important thing is to size it for the maximum gpm of hot water you are going to need at any given time.

Posted by: Ronster at May 18, 2013 10:40 AM (sa3Ro)

54 I feel electrified after reading that. All kidding aside, thanks for the mini-education!

Posted by: and irresolute at May 18, 2013 10:42 AM (DBH1h)

55 A propane tankless may have different jetting and exhaust venting requirements than the more common NG ones.

Propane and NG burn at different temps. They may look identical externally, but will have subtle internal differences for the different gas types.

The tankless may be less hassle since draining it down for winter is a lot easier, its only going to drain out a gallon or so. Whoever plumbs it can just rig up drain valves on the input/output lines, and you can winterize it with a bucket.

Draining down a 40gal tank for the winter is a lot of gallons and a hose kinda deal...where if the water is kinda hard and the bottom sludges up, could take many hours at a trickle rate through the gunk.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 10:42 AM (/gHaE)

56 "50 I have a question...my husband and I are building a lake house for vacationing, etc. Considering a tankless water heater which would have to be run on propane. Any thoughts or advice? Seems to be quite a bit more expensive than a regular hot water tank. I am open for suggestions from someone with experience." http://tinyurl.com/2y2yar Advantages and Disadvantages Here are some advantages to on-demand water heating: Tankless water heaters are compact in size and virtually eliminate standby losses - energy wasted when hot water cools down in long pipes or while it's sitting in the storage tank. By providing warm water immediately where it's used, tankless water heaters waste less water. People don't need to let the water run as they wait for warm water to reach a remote faucet. A tankless water heater can provide unlimited hot water as long as it is operating within its capacity. Equipment life may be longer than tank-type heaters because they are less subject to corrosion. Expected life of tankless water heaters is 20 years, compared to 10 to 15 years for tank-type water heaters. Tankless water heaters range in price from $200 for a small under-sink unit up to $1000 for a gas-fired unit that delivers 5 gallons per minute. Typically, the more hot water the unit produces, the higher the cost. In most cases, electric tankless water heaters will cost more to operate than gas tankless water heaters. Here are some drawbacks to on-demand water heating: Tankless water heaters usually cannot supply enough hot water for simultaneous uses such as showers and laundry. Unless your demand system has a feature called modulating temperature control, it may not heat water to a constant temperature at different flow rates. That means that water temperatures can fluctuate uncomfortably - particularly if the water pressure varies wildly in your own water system. Electric units will draw more instantaneous power than tank-type water heaters. If electric rates include a demand charge, operation may be expensive. Electric tankless water heaters require a relatively high electric power draw because water must be heated quickly to the desired temperature. Make sure your wiring is up to the demand. Tankless gas water heaters require a direct vent or conventional flue. If a gas-powered unit has a pilot light, it can waste a lot of energy.

Posted by: NotCoach at May 18, 2013 10:45 AM (jU7Af)

Draining down a 40gal tank for the winter is a lot of gallons and a hose kinda deal...where if the water is kinda hard and the bottom sludges up, could take many hours at a trickle rate through the gunk.

This will not happen if the water heater is flushed as recommended on a yearly basis. Heh.

Posted by: Ronster at May 18, 2013 10:47 AM (sa3Ro)

58 "51 purp, What is your opinion on the stab in connectors for recepticles and switches? I always use the screw even though it takes more time." I'm not PurpAv, but I do play an electrician and Controls Engineer in IRL. I do mostly industrial work though. But when I do residential I like to use the stab in connections on receptacles and switches. I see no problem with them. Just make sure you have the properly rated receptacles for your conductors. A 15 amp receptacle will not accept 12 gauge wire at the stab-ins. The holes are too small.

Posted by: NotCoach at May 18, 2013 10:49 AM (jU7Af)

59 Important safety and code tips. Thanks, open blogger.

Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 at May 18, 2013 10:49 AM (6iKP6)

60 What is your opinion on the stab in connectors for recepticles and switches?

They fail. Frequently. When I was rewiring my crib, probably half the shit grade receptacles/switches had the wire fall right out of them as I eased them out of the box.

There's commercial grade stuff that has back openings where internal clamps are torqued down with a screw. Those are fine, and particularly convenient for stranded wire and situations where there's ain't much wire left in a box and adding a pigtailed on length and a wirenut would make stuffing the box almost impossible.

Avoid the poke in ones like the plague. I've only seen a few devices that were poke-in only. Leviton made some, and there were some Square-D breakers many years ago that uses the poke-in shit...throw them away

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 10:50 AM (/gHaE)

61 "60 What is your opinion on the stab in connectors for recepticles and switches? They fail. Frequently. When I was rewiring my crib, probably half the shit grade receptacles/switches had the wire fall right out of them as I eased them out of the box. There's commercial grade stuff that has back openings where internal clamps are torqued down with a screw. Those are fine, and particularly convenient for stranded wire and situations where there's ain't much wire left in a box and adding a pigtailed on length and a wirenut would make stuffing the box almost impossible. Avoid the poke in ones like the plague. I've only seen a few devices that were poke-in only. Leviton made some, and there were some Square-D breakers many years ago that uses the poke-in shit...throw them away" Have you ever had one pop out without disturbing the receptacle or switch? And I would never personally use the stb-ins for stranded wire. Just about everything in an industrial setting is stranded wires so I use a lot of Sta-Kons for connections on receptacles or switches.

Posted by: NotCoach at May 18, 2013 10:58 AM (jU7Af)

62 NotCoach, the backstabs with the spring fingers are only good for about 10y, then they start failing.

My development is about 20 years old and backstab failures have been multiplying like cockroaches the past 10 years.

Whenever some neighbor knocks on my door looking for help with original install stuff, its almost invariably a backstab failure these days.

Anything that draws enough current to get the spring fingers hot eventually anneals the metal and the spring gets weaker. It becomes a vicious cycle.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:01 AM (/gHaE)

63 Thanks for the answers. I'm heading to a pig roast and beer fest.

Posted by: Ronster at May 18, 2013 11:04 AM (sa3Ro)

64 Have you ever had one pop out without disturbing the receptacle or switch?

Yes. Last year a neighbor had a 3-way fail. The wire was completely loose and arcing. I just pulled it out made a loop and screwed it down since the switch contacts were still good.

The other issue is their physical robustness. The cheap shit doesn't have a full metal backstrap and when people start yanking cords, I've seen'em break right in half.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:05 AM (/gHaE)

65 "62 NotCoach, the backstabs with the spring fingers are only good for about 10y, then they start failing." That's good to know. Like I said above I don't do a lot of residential so I don't have the knowledge base of something like that which really only comes with experience. Next time I'm helping a friend maybe I'll stop using the stab-ins. Of course the friend is getting what he pays for, which is usually just dinner.

Posted by: NotCoach at May 18, 2013 11:06 AM (jU7Af)

66 I installed two Takagi tankless propane water heaters at my house. The first one paid for itself in electricity savings in just 12 months, so I bought another small one just for the kitchen which is 60' away from the two bathrooms and laundry.

Being 85% efficient, they save a lot of money over electric tank-type water heaters...not so much over gas-fired types. The only real downside is the 6 second delay between opening the faucet valve and the production of hot water - that's in addition to the lag due to the length of plumbing to the fixture.

I also use mine to supply the heated tile floor in my bathroom.

Mine are mounted outside, which saves on the expensive vent pipe. They are freeze-protected down to 5 degrees F.

They use a lot of gas (about 200,000BTU/H), so 3/4" gas pipe and suitable regulator is recommended to feed them.

I bought my Takagi units on sale at pexsupply.com

Posted by: snopercod at May 18, 2013 11:07 AM (LvTrc)

67 There's probably some significant percentage of backstab failures that are caused by crappy rough-in and lousy box trimming too.

Shit where the switch/receptacle is kinda floating around with long screws holding it in rather than firmly joined with the box/mud ring will slowly work on those spring fingers as the device shifts around.

I spend an inordinate amount of time getting it right with BE1/BE2 extenders, washer/caterpillar packing, etc so the device ain't floating around.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:10 AM (/gHaE)

68 Hey Purp, what do you think about these new "child safety" receptacles and GFCIs with the shutters blocking the holes where the plug goes? Supposedly this prevents a child from sticking a safety pin into the receptacle and lighting himself up. I just bought some (they were all I could find in black) and unfortunately, those shutters also pretty much prevent an adult from plugging anything into them.

Posted by: snopercod at May 18, 2013 11:11 AM (LvTrc)

69 Currently the funniest about the electric code is that plugs now go in upside down. They say it'll prevent fires if shit falls on half plugged plugs. Problem is all the crap my family buys me as a housewarming present doesn't know about this and won't plug in. First world problems.

Posted by: tsrblke (Phone) at May 18, 2013 11:16 AM (MTSwl)

70 Hey Purp, what do you think about these new "child safety" receptacles and GFCIs with the shutters blocking the holes where the plug goes?

Yea, I got some in my crib...stacked switch and "tamper resistant" receptacle. They're not kid proof, they're fucking human proof.

If you experiment a bit with insertion angle, you'll find a sweet spot where they'll kinda work.

If they really wanted to protect kids from electrocutions, Cutler Hammer makes a "combo" Arc-fault/GFCI breaker.

Its really just an Arc-Fault that has its GFCI protection trip level set to 5ma rather than 30ma. I've used them a lot when keeping really old two conductor Romex in place. The 5ma GFCI protection allows you to put 3-prong receptacles in on old 2-conductor wiring

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:24 AM (/gHaE)

71 Great thread. I'm wiring a new shop. Nothing complicated, but trying to do everything just right is a challenge. Local electricians leave a lot to be desired.

Posted by: PepeLp at May 18, 2013 11:25 AM (kwIcm)

72 Currently the funniest about the electric code is that plugs now go in upside down.

The NEC is silent on receptacle orientation. You may have some local amendment requiring particular orientation though.

I've seen immediate turn cords where they expected ground down, and others where they expected ground up. No matter which way they're oriented, there'll be something that screws you.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:28 AM (/gHaE)

73 I have found it well worth (in both installation ease and peace of mind) the extra price to buy the heavier duty receptacles that have solid screw terminals and not use the push-in connections.

I never would have believed it, but I had some cheap (builder) receptacles that basically fell apart when I was replacing trim. I am convinced the the building inspector on the original job found a few 100 dollar bills in the main box right before he signed off.

Posted by: Hrothgar at May 18, 2013 11:30 AM (Cnqmv)

74 I've done DIY under the casual eye of a real electrician. When his work (especially replacing the service entrance) was inspected, mine was too. Including the stuff I did, piecemeal, before he showed up. We didn't tell him I did any of the work, but you know what? My work doesn't look like anything I've ever seen by a pro. It's correct, just...different. Often a lot more carefully laid out. He did kinda roll his eyes a couple of times.

Part of that, I think, was that the original wiring was undersized and fabric covered. I did everything with 12 ga (hot Houston attic) modern cable.

In other words, what I did was vastly better than the original; even if I made a few mistakes, the house was a thousand times safer.

===

Back-stabbers: yeah, I avoid those kinds of devices myself. I do have a fondness for the combination types, where you poke the wire into the hole, then tighten down the screw. Perfect, and you don't have to form the loop around the screw. Just be careful not to put two different wire gauges next to each other

I'm also fond of the push-type connectors that are replacing wire nuts. (Wago, I'm told, is the preferred brand, although Ideal is easier to find.) Much easier to use, and much more compact in a crowded box. Apparently, those use a more secure arrangement than the devices did. And, unlike switches and outlets, they're not subject to being wiggled in normal use.

My current house has some old aluminum wiring. I occasionally have to splice into that, or replace a scorched wire nut. (!)

The preferred method is a short stub of screw-type bus terminal in a purple plastic box (Alumicons). They're easy to use, come preloaded with anti-oxidant, and are reasonably compact. Only thing is, you're supposed to use a $70 torque screwdriver to set them. Uh huh. (Or there's a crimp connector applied with a thousand dollar specialty hydraulic tool from AMP. With their day long training. Uh huh.) Again, though, for my purposes, anything I do is better than the existing crap.

Posted by: DJMoore at May 18, 2013 11:31 AM (ayoGu)

75 There are cases where you might need larger conductors for voltage drop reasons. Just size the breaker accordingly for the smaller gauge. That would be safe, but the issue would be if someone came along later and saw the #12 and decided to change the breaker to a 20A. I'm traveling and away from my code book, but there is a whole article on branch circuits.

Posted by: AE at May 18, 2013 11:37 AM (Dt2lZ)

76 One of the types of Ideal Twister wirnuts is UL listed for Cu/Al connections...but has been shown to fail occasionally in long term tests. There's some tiny little Polaris splices too. The AMP crimp tool is supposed to be quite good.

I got a $150 SnapOn torque screwdriver. Its awesome for getting torques on the small stuff right...but it was $150 too.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:39 AM (/gHaE)

77 but the issue would be if someone came along later and saw the #12 and decided to change the breaker to a 20A.

I always write a message on the panel cover when I go heavy that sounds like this:

"The breakers in this panel have been correctly sized due to derating and/or downstream smaller wire in the branches. DO NOT fuck with this shit unless you REALLY know what you are doing!"

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 11:43 AM (/gHaE)

78 I didn't see Obama's name anywhere in that post.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at May 18, 2013 12:17 PM (PwV7G)

79 "A lot of inspectors will give a DIY a hard time if the works is sloppy and full of issues (often the case). They're trying to give a subtle hint that the DIY is in way over their head." But seriously, I've done inspections on boiler installs and quickly become a hardon when I see a general level of slopiness in the work. Everything nice and tidy: I'll look at what I gotta look at. Everything lookin' like a botched abortion: you get the anal probing. I can make a good case for the proposition that sloppy workers screw up more than neat ones. In my town, inspectors red tag a lot of DIY projects. Some have been known to give recommendations of contractors to clear up violations. Ignore the fact that the contractor and the inspector have the same last name. Purely coincidental.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at May 18, 2013 12:42 PM (PwV7G)

80 If there are two circuits (and two breakers/fuses), say a 20A on the 12/2, and a 15A on the 14/3, that too is permitted, BUT if the two branches land on a device (ex. a split feed receptacle, or a stack switch with the hot interconnect tab busted off making it essentially two completely distinct switches), THEN the 15A and 20A breakers MUST be placed side by side and connected with a "handle tie". Separate circuits that do not land on the same devices aren't required to have handle tie on breakers, but its something I usually do anyway so the next guy has a clue about what's going on. The handle tie is a clue that there's multiple live circuits on devices somewhere downstream. What voodoo is this?

Posted by: toby928© at May 18, 2013 01:24 PM (QupBk)

81 How about this: Idiot homeowner rewires his house. More code violations than the IRS. House catches fire. Cause discovered to be aforesaid wiring nonsense. Consequence: Homeowner must reimburse town for cost of fire department and insurance does not pay. Next?

Posted by: VADM(Red) Cuthbert Collingwood (Mentioned in Despatches) at May 18, 2013 01:52 PM (p4U6S)

82 What voodoo is this?

The handle tie requirement so someone will have to shut off both breakers to work on a device that has two circuits on it.

ex. a split feed duplex receptacle where one half is on one circuit, the other half is on another.

If you don't turn both breakers off, you get a big surprise when you grab that receptacle and pull it out of the box and one half is still live.

People do this kind of thing all the time when they want more than 15/20A available in one spot. Very common for dishwasher/disposal hookups. The washer'll be on one circuit, the disposal on another.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 01:56 PM (PqMHM)

83 Back East, where i was brought up, I learned early on that (a) inspectors job is to find problems. If you do something perfectly, they will make shit up. Like the baker whose job it is to bake cakes, the inceptor's job is to find problems and if he makes a trip without finding one it is like the baker running the oven without a cake in there. (b) Inspectors always must know more than anyone or anything, including the code book. If they are confused, then you are wrong. (c) People they do not know, including DIYers, but also including new contractors, out of area contractors, etc. are gonna have a hard time. (d) They only fear big contractors with big reputations and gravitas. The big guys get "visits", not inspections. and finally -- (e) a handshake and dead president on every meeting turns the meeting into a social call. You will get many more (many more) per job, but they will go down like a good single malt. No need to fear insulting his integrity, since an inspector that does not accept a little lunch money has not been born. In fact, with that single act (repeated on every trip or he will be insulted) he will understand that you *are* a professional and you understand that he has a tough job and knows more than you. You will have stroked is ego in a way that finding an overstuffed box or untaped traveler never will. This last lesson was taught to me by Julio, the worst electrician I ever met (with the lowest bid so he got the job on one of my fathers buildings) who I really doubt could even read, let along follow sadistic the logic of the NEC, but he hacked his way through CT's and 240 red legs like a drunk driving in a white out - half asleep, and half terrified -- with his limp handshake and folded up Abe leading the way (this was the 80's, but even then I was amazed that an inspector could be bought $5 at a time. Lunch costs more nowadays.) Julio soon after became an inspector himself.

Posted by: Endeavor to Persevere at May 18, 2013 02:05 PM (zZJJp)

84 "If you don't turn both breakers off, you get a big surprise when you grab that receptacle and pull it out of the box and one half is still live." If only there were some device you could buy that would indicate the presence of live current before the idiot homeowner got zapped.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at May 18, 2013 02:06 PM (PwV7G)

85 If only there were some device you could buy..

Electricians call that the apprentice ;->

"Oh, you got lit up eh? We got us what they call a teachable moment now that your attention has been focused properly. Here's why it happened and how to avoid that in the future..."

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 02:32 PM (PqMHM)

86 I really don't like it when folks down size a branch. If I see a 15A breaker on a #12 wire I must assume there is a #14 branch coming off it somewhere. Which means even if the curcuit is actually sized for a larger load I can't assume it is. I always try and size the lines properly even if I have to go buy the correct wire. Of all the things in the house the two I dont fuck around with are gas and electric. I do both those by the book.

Posted by: Walknot at May 18, 2013 02:41 PM (cey9b)

87 Thanks for the info, guys...I learn a lot from these DIY threads. I love having smart friends.

Posted by: 'Ette in training, a striving wannabe at May 18, 2013 02:58 PM (zvxqj)

88 This is some blog.

Posted by: Buck O. Phive at May 18, 2013 03:03 PM (R2ShP)

89 I only work with 12ga. The only 14ga in the house is from the "close-enough" crowd that owned it before me and yes, they're on 15A breakers.

I probably run more circuits than necessary, but I now have serious compartmentalization if something goes wrong. Oh, and every circuit entering the panel is properly run around the perimeter of the panel to the breaker, neutral bus, and ground bus. Lots of right angles in there.

Posted by: Captain Ned at May 18, 2013 03:16 PM (i+Fm3)

90 How many hours will having the box (basic house, big box) wired (properly) for generator usage be? I want a big red lever for cutting over on the outside.

Posted by: Jean at May 18, 2013 03:24 PM (VHfsw)

91 Putting in a transfer switch and genset isn't a 1 hour job. That'll probably take the best part of a day start to finish.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 03:44 PM (PqMHM)

92 I always try and size the lines properly even if I have to go buy the correct wire.

The thing is, when you're derating for high ambient, or a packed conduit, or correcting for objectionable voltage drop, the larger size wire IS the "correct wire".

In some cases, 10ga on a 15A breaker is correct. My attic's peak has temps over 145 degrees on a hot summer day. It was mandatory per the NEC to run the string of lights down the peak on 10ga wire.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 03:49 PM (PqMHM)

93 I probably run more circuits than necessary

Meeting the bare minimum electric code requirements is like passing a class with a D- ;->

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 03:52 PM (PqMHM)

94 Watts divided by volts equals amps... 14 ga wire wont take care of your modern day hair dryer, at fifty or sixty run. Why is this shit still for sale?

Posted by: Rats Alley at May 18, 2013 05:31 PM (XACbv)

95 The electrical code is FAR WORSE than the tax code.

Not at all. The NEC has reasons for why they want it done that way, it is much smaller and more clear cut than the tax code, doesn't change as much as tax code and doesn't generally change due to the capricious and arbitrary whims of paid off politicians.

I actually LIKE the NEC. The tax code... not so much.

Posted by: FrankReality at May 18, 2013 05:39 PM (Bn9It)

96 14 ga wire wont take care of your modern day hair dryer, at fifty or sixty run. Why is this shit still for sale?

15A is fine for lighting and general receptacles when there's enough circuits. The code minimum that allows one 15A to serve a modern day bedroom is weak though. A wide screen, a couple of desktop computers and a space heater will trip a 15A breaker.

I like to put at least two lighting circuits in a room (you're never completely in the dark on a breaker trip) and have that room's receptacles spread around over several different circuits (you can turn off one, and still have power to run tools and worklights without running lead cords).

Its more work to interleave the branches around between different rooms that way, but the end result is a lot more usable.

The hair dryer breaker trippy thing was dealt with some years ago with a code change mandating 20A dedicated circuits on the bathroom receptacles.

In older places its still common to find a single 15A branch running the garage lights, garage receptacle, multiple bathroom lights/fans and receptacles, as well as outside receptacles. My place was built in 89' and that shit was still legal then...

...the dedicated bath 20A receptacles were one of the first things I reconfigured when I started rewiring the joint to modern specs.

Posted by: @PurpAv at May 18, 2013 05:59 PM (PqMHM)

97 I'd like to put in a plug for the 3M #43155 R/Y+ Wire Connectors. I used them almost exclusively when I was a residential electrician. They have a long-taper internal spring which will accept anything from 2-#18s to 2-#8s. They're a little larger than your standard wire nuts, but that long-taper spring really grabs the wires.

Posted by: snopercod at May 19, 2013 06:30 AM (LvTrc)

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