1 First? Neener?

2 I mean, Neener - Neener! Great read. I agree. 2nd look at Kenyan birth?

3 Epic.  Poetry.

4 As if we need further proof America is foreign to TFG.

5

No, Jack.

It's a matter of being a person in the US versus not in the US (regardless of citizenship). If you're a US citizen outside of the US, drones can attack you and your communications monitored.

6 You're on the list, buddy.

7 Obama is a treasonous shitforbrains asshole.

8 Who would have thought that John Lennon's starry-eyed dream from an eight-year-old's perspective, "Imagine", would become the guiding doctrine for a party of nitwits?

9 We have always been at war with Eastasia. 

10 We are completely through the looking glass!

11 Sounds like something an Indian (dot not feather) would say. Oh, you are a US person. I am standing beside myself with excitement!

12
Obama laying the groundwork for his version of the New Soviet Man.

13 Ace will be back later with a movie review

14 I'll be in my bunk til this blows over.

15 EC, I'll write an epic poem soon.

Will I publish it? That's a different question.

16 Is a US citizenship valuable and precious or just expensive?

Also none of the twitter stuff gets past the AdBlock 'antisocial' filter.

17

But what about us Un-persons living in Jesusland......

18 But the construction of "US persons", why that covers pretty much anyone found within the borders!

Except it doesn't.

The State Department has a very specific definition of "U.S. Person" for ITAR (the laws about transferring military technology).  Be sure to click on all the links.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.15

You can be a U.S. citizen and not a "U.S. Person" if you are employed by a foreign company, for example.


It's weird that SCOAMF would use an ITAR term (I've always assumed he's in favor of handing out our technology to our enemies willy-nilly), but let's not run around spouting stuff as ignorantly as he does.

19 off topic, but the mindset is similar (from yahoo news):

U.S. and Taliban negotiators will hold formal talks "in a couple of days" in the Gulf state of Qatar, where the Taliban will officially open an office on Tuesday, U.S. officials said on a conference call with reporters. The negotiations are part of a diplomatic push to ease the American withdrawal by the end of 2014 and ensure the war-torn country does not serve as a springboard for attacks like the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist strikes.

(I hope they send Kerry. I remember something about people looking at a horse.)

20 Semi-related linked on Drudge:  Bill Ayers says Obama should be tried for war crimes.

21 America!   Fuck yeah!


By the by, if the US persons statement is an accurate reflection of US policy, then the NSA can't do jack shit to help fight terror since the NSA then cannot listen in calls from one foreigner to another. 


Oh.  I'm sorry, I mean one US person to one who is extra-territorially US personed. 


I have lost track of how many on the Left to whom I've spoken honest and truly believe that the concept of citizenry is hateful and bigoted and outdated in the modern world.   I am unsurprised, though deeply dismayed, that a US president shares that view.


Also I want to know if cannot means technologically impossible, which I found doubtful, or legally prohibited and against policy, which means that, hell, yeah, people are listening in.

22 Personism

23

I'm    reminded of     a passage from the Cracked.com book You May Be a Zombie and Other Bad News:

 

"...most of us get nervous when people are intentionally vague.  We steer clear of the street vendor selling    'meat soup'    and     'food burritos.'"

 

"US persons"   is the Obammy equivalent of "meat soup,"   and equally nauseating and sinister.

 

24

So don't tell me it's a meaningless semantic change, Mr. President. I know better.

 

So does he.  It's the verbal equivalent of the middle finger scratching his nose.

 

And I'm convinced that there are still enough of us remaining who do as well.

 

I'm not.  The last election, combined with the utter fecklessness of the GOP  in the face of blatant, obvious bias and cheating,  convinced me of that.

 

I hope so, anyway, because I shudder to think of how emboldened the left will become once they have convinced themselves that the last remnants of those who understand our unique tradition and history, and our traditional preference for limited government and individual liberty, have finally been overwhelmed.

 

Will become?

 

Does the name "Holly Paz" mean anything to you, Jack?  In a country that had a preference for "limited government and individual liberty," she would already have found herself dragged to the nearest Liberty Tree, doused with hot tar and covered with feathers before being ridden on the sharp edge of a rail to the end of town.

 

But she isn't.  She won't be.  And nothing will change.  There's only one way to stop the left, but it won't happen.  And we'll be debating semantics and hills to die on all the way to Auschwitz.

25 They use the term "person" so that they can gradually morph that into "person of interest".


Then that can change to "suspect", then "criminal", then "felon".

26 EC, I'll write an epic poem soon.

Will I publish it? That's a different question.

Posted by: jack m. at June 18, 2013 12:33 PM (X3CZz)

Come on, JackM!

It's been far too long.

Oh, and your long lost love MKH is with child.  Not yours though.

27 Bravo! This country needs more persons like you!

28

Your Government, which is much different than we envisioned, is trying to convince you to trade Freedom, for Safety....

 

and trying to convince you that all historical evidence to the contrary, a Government can be trusted with unlimited power...

 

That a Government which routinely ignores the Law, and only Enforces those it wishes to enforce, is to be trusted 'this' time....

 

 

29 Spoken from the man who's pretty sure children born alive after an abortion are definitely not persons.

30 (I hope they send Kerry. I remember something about people looking at a horse.)

***

Never look a giftt Secretary of Sate in the mouth.

31 Well this US person is pissed too.

32 I am unsurprised, though deeply dismayed, that a US president shares that view.


It's like finding out you're no longer special.

*locks door*

33 citizenship and sovereignty are racist.  or something

34 You can argue that "US persons" would also include trees and animals, because these nitwits favor giving legal standing to them too.
The only thing it would not include is Fetus-Americans.
I have said it a million times - if they were intentionally trying to destroy the country, there is nothing they would do differently.

35 Do US Persons have to pay income taxes?

36 "But the construction of "US persons", why that covers pretty much anyone found within the borders!"

The constitution protects people located within the US borders, not just US citizens. So it would be correct to say US persons (as shorthand for "all people-citizens, residents, illegal aliens and temporary visitors).

37 Oh, and your long lost love MKH is with child. Not yours though.
Posted by: EC at June 18, 2013 12:36 PM (GQ8sn)


*target acquired*

*launch initiated*

38 Welcome back Jack. Much as his statement about freedom "to worship" and not "of religion", it's a subtle shift in the language use to stifle discontent.

39
*target acquired*

*launch initiated*

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 18, 2013 12:39 PM (Gk3SS)

*opens umbrella*

40 Enjoy your audit, Jack.

41 infuriating listening to the hearings..... let it burn

42 Homo Americano sum

43 I'm a Texan; native born, and it pisses me off no end that those Americans are creating a totalitarian State right next door.

44 I'll be in the bar until this blows over.

45 " The constitution protects people located within the US borders, not just US citizens. So it would be correct to say US persons (as shorthand for "all people-citizens, residents, illegal aliens and temporary visitors).Posted by: Adam B a" Except that's not at all what he's saying. Clearly there are some people in the US who ARE being spied on. Muhammad squared from Yemen, for example.

46 Sorry, I meant to conclude that sentance...

It would be correct to say US persons as shorthand for "all people-citizens, residents, illegal aliens and temporary visitors-located within the borders of the United States."

47

"The State Department has a very specific definition of "U.S. Person" for ITAR (the laws about transferring military technology). Be sure to click on all the links."

HeatherRadish, the President's comments here have nothing to do with ITAR, and I find it unlikely that he was referencing it in a tweet meant to reassure the general American public about his surveillance programs.

48 Viva Los Estados Unidos! Viva La Raza!

49

They didn't put it all on the line to protect "US persons". They put it all on the line to protect "US Citizens." They understood the difference.

So don't tell me it's a meaningless semantic change, Mr. President.

 

----------------------------

 

You'll have  to forgive  Lord  Zero, Jack. 

 

"US Person"  is a term used by  the government  to determine  your tax  liability.  For the purposes  of reaching their  filthy dickbeaters into your pocket, "US Person"  does not just denote citizens, it denotes   permanent residents,  work visa holders, owners of US domiciled corporations, or non-citizens  who reside in the US for a certain number of  days every year,  about 183, I think.

 

He just wants to keep track  of all his milk cows.  You don't have to be a citizen  to have  Uncle  Sugar  squeeze your teat  until it's dry.

50 Citizens have rights - "Persons" not so much.

51 That tweet is a typo.  He doesn't mean U.S. person as in a person in or of the United States.  He means "us" person.  As in "we're not listening to the people who agree with me exactly on every political point." 

Of course, that's a lie too.  He listens to those conversations too, to seek out blasphemers and heretics.

52 Persons of the world unite!  You have nothing to lose but your citizenship!

53 Sorry, I meant to conclude that sentance...

It would be correct to say US persons as shorthand for "all people-citizens, residents, illegal aliens and temporary visitors-located within the borders of the United States."


I want to make sure that I understand your position.   Are you stating that full United States Constitutional protections are available to all those persons who are physically located within the borders of the United States?

54

In fairness, the wording was probably reviewed/approved by lawyers. Under a number of federal laws, the term US persons applies to a broader swath of persons that just U.S. citizens. At a minimum, it usually means U.S. citizens and U.S. permanent resident aliens (green card holders) wherever located. It sometimes also means persons currently present in the U.S. -- but it can differ from statute to statute. I will plead ignorance about the particular formulation in the statute. I don't think they were trying to say U.S. persons as a replacement for U.S. citizens.

I am not an Obama fan, but I don't think there was anything intended by the wording, other than English clunkiness by a lawyer.

55 We are all persons  now.

56

Are you stating that full United States Constitutional protections are available to all those persons who are physically located within the borders of the United States?

 

that is the left's position

 

that is why we have to have GITMO, or just kill them

57 I remember maybe 25 years ago when some politically correct a-hole said that I was to be referred to as a "Jewish Person". I suspect that "person" is like "plant" -- it's okay to get rid of the bad plants, isn't it?

and re 20: if Ayers really feels that way, maybe he'd also like to tell us how much of a hand he had in writing Obama's two books.

58 you can't expect that the telephone company or their employees to keep your phone records private? well that stupid logic blows all banking and healthcare privacy rights right out of the water.....think about it

59 I'm going to disagree with this post. I don't want the NSA to listen to the phone calls or read the e-mails of resident aliens, or even illegal aliens, without a darn good reason (like, say, the person has suspected terrorist connections).

60 We are all Time's US Persons Of The Year now.

61 Just shut up and pay your taxes, serfs.

62 " Semi-related linked on Drudge: Bill Ayers says Obama should be tried for war crimes."

And then Bill probably called Barry on a secure line afterwards and they both had a laugh.

63 if they are illegal and we know where they are....we should be deporting them....

64 @46- "Clearly there are some people in the US who ARE being spied on."

Sure. And that is unconstitutional.

I read Jack's post as a rant against the conflation of "US person" and "US citizen" which, in this instance, has a good reason.

65

Bill Ayers says Obama should be tried for war crimes

 

 

Saw that.

 

He then proceeded to say that all U.S. presidents "this century" should be put on trial for war crimes.  "They go into an office  dripping with blood and then add to it."

 

 

Ayers is so far out there he's a caricature of himself ... except that so many currently in power or who have the ear of those in power take Ayers' utterances with the utmost seriousness. 

66 So as a foreign born Muslim the President's communications are under constant NSA scrutiny? I kid! I kid! ......not really.....

67 As a US Person, I'm taking the fifth.

68 Fucking guy should never have been anywhere near the WH.A total disaster for the country.

69 HeatherRadish, the President's comments here have nothing to do with ITAR, and I find it unlikely that he was referencing it in a tweet meant to reassure the general American public about his surveillance programs.

He didn't type that tweet himself.  We pay someone six figures a year to do it.

I can't figure out why our rulers don't listen to us.  O_o

70 Prince Faggotlip's Excellent Washington Adventure.

71

Iowahawk said it best

 

we have to spy on all Americans because we failed to enforce immigration laws against 20 terrorists here on visa violations

72

Actually, according to the DoD, an illegal alien is not a US Person.

US Person is defined as: A U.S Citizen, A person known to be a perminate resident alien (defined as a foriegn national LAWFULLY admitted into the US for perminate residence), an unincorporated association substantially comprised of citizens or perminate resident aliens; or a corporation incorporated in the US and not directly controlled by a foriegn goevernment.

 

Not that I trust the administration to actually follow the definition, but the term is legit.

73 Who'd have thunk it...the first US President not a citizen does not look favorably upon US citizenship. I'm gobsmacked.

74 I have a US Bank Credit Card. What does that get me other than another day older and deeper in debt?

75 So, us person safe from nsa spying....us citizen, not so much is that about right?

76 Damn, I type slow

77 Notwithstanding the fact that the tweet is also a blatant lie.

78 Posted by: Lois Learner at June 18, 2013 12:46 PM (oDCMR)

I'll take the fifth as well.

Fifth of Rye. Blends need not apply.

79

Tammy and his brother Dzerkoff?

 

US persons.

 

 

80 This whole argument about what "person" means is why I loathe twitter as a tool for any type of serious debate.   It's not a format conducive thereto. 

81

some one remind me why we believe anything this administration says about what they are doing?

 

why do they still get benefit of the doubt?

82 @53- "Are you stating that full United States Constitutional protections are available to all those persons who are physically located within the borders of the United States?"

Yes, except if you are going through customs. Technically you are in the US but not officially so you may be "deported" without due process. Illegal aliens who jump the fence do receive the protections of the constitution.

83 if they are illegal and we know where they are....we should be deporting them....

Flag them on the employment verification sites, with fingerprints.  Flag them on the social services sites, with fingerprints.  Require fingerprint submission to work or receive social services. 

If they're picked up by LEOs for a crime, they serve their time, then they are deported at their own expense. 

After a certain number of active deportations, start deporting them to countries other than their country of origin, again, at their expense.  Let's say Asia for Hispanics, Middle East for Russians, former Soviet States for Middle Easterners, or any other permutation you like.

84 Actually, according to the DoD, an illegal alien is not a US Person.

Now, now.  We've been told that SCOAMF would never use a term used by one of his cabinet agencies.

85 I'm waiting for Twitter to dry up and blow away like dogshit.

86 SCOAMF has nothing to do with "U.S. persons". I worked in signals intelligence starting in 1989, as a sailor in the United States Naval Security Group which comprises part of the National Security Agency. We were trained thoroughly (and aggressively) on the content of United States Signals Intelligence Directive (USSID) 18, which forbade us, back in 1989, from development or retention of any intelligence, whether knowingly or unknowingly collected, concerning "U.S. persons".

87 I wouldn't even use "US citizen".  I prefer American citizen.   There are citizens of the US that don't give a flying shit about anything American.   So, I'm an American citizen, not a US  citizen.

88 82 Illegal aliens who jump the fence do receive the protections of the constitution. Which I've never quite figured out.

89 Look at the rest of the statement:

President Obama: "... the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls and the NSA cannot target your emails."

Notice what Obama doesn't say.

He's saying that:

(1) The NSA CAN and DOES collect all of the metadata about all of everyone's phone calls, and

(2) The NSA can collect any and all emails it wants, so long as it's not "targeting" you.  It can, however, collect any or all of them if the NSA's "primary purpose" is to "target" someone other than you.  The fact that the NSA has all of your emails permanently stored somewhere is beside the point. 

90 Tammy and his brother Dzerkoff?
US persons.

No, because they were acting on behalf of a foreign interest.

91 FBI guy testifying just said 'US Person'.

92 I don't know about a US Person, but I know I am a jackass. My wife has told me that hundreds of times

93
83 Require fingerprint submission to work or receive social services.

Posted by: bonhomme at June 18, 2013 12:50 PM (yKTI2)

I thought that was already in place. It was in Texas the last time I heard. Admittedly that was several years ago.

94 Federal law and executive order define a United States person as any of the following:^[1] a citizen of the United States an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence an unincorporated association with a substantial number of members who are citizens of the U.S. or are aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence a corporation that is incorporated in the U.S.

95

I suspect they are using the meta data collection like the TSA does pat downs and cops do sobriety checks

 

as long as they swearsy its random and not targeting a specific person, they can listen in or read to their hearts delight

96 I regret having to hold an umbrella over a rainy parade, but it's much simpler: persons outside the US - citizen or not - can be spied on. Persons in the US cannot be (absent a warrant). As twitter short-hand, "US persons" succinctly captures this.

97 Legally "US Person" is meaningless. It doesn't have any meaning.

98

Of course, this all ties in with the New  World Odor proponents: they have been quite busy pushing the meme that everyone is a "citizen of the world"  and  no one is any better than anyone else, or any worse.

 

Multiculturalism and  PC speech is a big part of it too. We're all supposed to be one big happy family of mankind,   united  in our worldlihoodinessism. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that  all individuality is to be subsumed by our Betters in a Global Gubmint. 

 

America is the last place  on the planet with anything that even  approaches individual freedom.  These NWO's  know it, hence their  push to abolish everything that makes us who we are through our  culture. They've been at it for a long time, and are sensing  that     victory is just within  their grasp.

 

As we are seeing,   our freedom to carry on our daily lives without a giant government overseeing our every action is nearly  gone. If freedom fails here, it will be  a long time before mankind ever sees anything like it again.

 

 

99 Corporations are US Persons? Oh, the howls of fury that will bring forth from "them"...until it's convenient.

100 I don't need no stinking badges.

101 Ah.... I stand pre-corrected. N/M

102

US persons can be spied on randomly as long as they are not specifically targeted before hand

 

like a random pat down by TSA

 

or a sobriety check on the highway by the police on holiday weekends

103 This whole argument about what "person" means is why I loathe twitter as a tool for any type of serious debate. It's not a format conducive thereto.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 18, 2013 12:49 PM (Gk3SS)

 

Ditto.

 

 

I get that it's a legitimate term from a polito-speak, governo-clature, legalese perspective.   Fine.  Whatever.   That's unimportant.   If the     Preezy really wanted    to   reassure the average American that they aren't being spied on, and didn't want to single out US citizens, he should have    said,   "US citizens, resident aliens and others protected under our Constitution cannot have their convos listened to by the NSA..." etc etc etc.    Your average American doesn't know what the fuck a "resident alien" is anyway, let alone what classes of American fall under the heading of "US Person."   It's stupid and inane to use the term when no one outside of gubmint uses it   or knows its parameters.

 

 

Our Preezy and his speechtypers are too stupid to    parse such language    without nefarious purpose.    He used this construction deliberately to    avoid     the term "US citizen," with the full knowledge that, if necessary, he could fall back on the argument, "But TECHNICALLY it's the legitimate term."    And thus they are allowed to redefine and recontextualize the language.  

 

 

JUST SAY NO.

104 79 Tammy and his brother Dzerkoff?

US persons.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 18, 2013 12:49 PM (CJjw5)

That proves my statement to be correct, then doesn't it? Otherwise we would have caught them in time. Holder was invaluable in setting the parameters on that one.

105 Okay -- since the last thread lasted all of 10 minutes before getting stomped by this one I'm going to re-post this question from the last thread: ******* Is any moron out there familiar with Turkish popular culture? I ask because the former girlfriend of my best friend dumped him for some guy she claims the Turks call "the Dan Rather of Turkey." Bing and Google haven't helped me figure out his name. He came home one day and found strange socks, shoes, pants and underwear strewn across his living room floor leading to the closed bedroom door. Caught her in the act and that was the end of their years long relationship. She's a real nut, BTW, a black-bloc anarchist radical. She's also the only person to have interviewed Ted Kaczynski. She was going to sell her material to Vanity Fair for $10,000 but decided that would be selling out and tore up the check. I have both of her computers that have all of the notes from her interviews and communications with fellow enviro-terrorists. The hard drives are password protected but AFAIK not encrypted. Any suggestions from you moron computer nerds as to how best to access the files on those drives?

106 or a sobriety check on the highway by the police on holiday weekends I always wondered about the constitutionality of that. Not that I'm against it.

107 By Obama's definition, any human being - like the 9/11 hijackers, for example - can be a US Person while they're inside our borders.  Why not let them vote, too?

108 High five here Jack M... Excellent post!  As Rush would say, right on, right on, right on.

As an OT: over at PJM, excellent essay putting SCOTUS AZ voting decision in excellent context... and how it was a resounding win for conservatives and states' rights.  http://bit.ly/11vVVCa

109
I'm an expat living in Israel. Am I a "US person"???

How did it come to this?

110 Point of clarification:  The US did not have citizens until the 14th Amendment was passed after the War.  You were a citizen of the state in which you resided.

111 I always wondered about the constitutionality of that


DUI checkpoints have to be posted in the local paper beforehand, and there has to be an exit before the checkpoint.  A turnoff, or intersection, etc.

112 18 Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 18, 2013 12:34 PM (ZKzrr)

Using US-person instead of US citizen just indicates it's likely that the NSA does find it w/in their charter to listen to US citizens outside the boundaries of the United States and in the employ of foreign companies/governments. Probably a prudent security posture.

113

Marvelously written, Jack. You sum up how I feel about it. And yes, we have a strong military tradition in my family, too. Citizenship means something. We have rights, yes, but with those rights we have obligations.

 

Of course, at the risk of sounding like a wild-eyed extremist, I think we're going to have to fight these people eventually, probably sooner rather than later since I don't see them willingly giving up the immense power it has taken them decades to acquire as the result of free and fair elections. We'll see, I guess. 2016 will be an interesting year, that's for sure.

114 Is that Daniel Pearl on Drudge?

115 I have both of her computers that have all of the notes from her interviews and communications with fellow enviro-terrorists. The hard drives are password protected but AFAIK not encrypted. Any suggestions from you moron computer nerds as to how best to access the files on those drives?

Posted by: Ed Anger at June 18, 2013 12:57 PM (tOkJB)

 

---------------------------------

 

Yes.  Beat her dumb  hippy  skull with the laptops until the files fall out or she stops breathing.

116 Civis Americano sum is now Homo Americano sum


I am, after all, a truly transformational President.

You're welcome!

117 The hard drives are password protected but AFAIK not encrypted. Any suggestions from you moron computer nerds as to how best to access the files on those drives? Posted by: Ed Anger at June 18, 2013 12:57 PM (tOkJB) If you just leave it on, we'll get to it tonight. Well, even if you don't leave it on....we'll get to it.

118 as long as they swearsy its random and not targeting a specific person, they can listen in or read to their hearts delight

This one drives me batty.  How do police define random?  If you're picking every N people (eg every third person), that ain't random.  People don't do random well.  Computers don't do real random (Google deterministic for more info).  It takes some specialized equipment for true randomness.  So fine, maybe that's a distinction only a math geek makes, but I'd like to know what standards are out there for police to which they must conform.  Is there a chi-square test they have to pass?  I doubt it.

119 114 Is that Daniel Pearl on Drudge?

Posted by: EC at June 18, 2013 01:01 PM (GQ8sn

Yes.

120 DUI checkpoints have to be posted in the local paper beforehand, and there has to be an exit before the checkpoint. A turnoff, or intersection, etc. Posted by: Wyatt Earp at June 18, 2013 12:59 PM (kFnmp) Where in the heck do live. In the Carolinas you go around a blind corner and it's "SURPRISE!!" a dozen squad cars and an RV set up as a med clinic, courtroom and holding cell.

121 If you can be a person, you can be an unperson.

122

Why is everyone    talking about this like it's just a tweet?   It's not.   The quote is taken from the Preezy's own comments   to Charlie Rose;    hence the quotation marks.      This is not twitter shorthand or some    snippet of a speech.

 

UPI: http://tiny.cc/68vvyw

 

And please note that even UPI    titles their piece "Obama says US citizens cannot be spied on by NSA."  

 

US citizen, or legal US resident,   are the terms most commonly used in everyday parlance.   The fact that Obammy would choose to use the vague and unfamiliar "US persons" is clearly    a     deliberate    jab.

123 I have both of her computers that have all of the notes from her interviews and communications with fellow enviro-terrorists. The hard drives are password protected but AFAIK not encrypted. Any suggestions from you moron computer nerds as to how best to access the files on those drives?

Posted by: Ed Anger at June 18, 2013 12:57 PM (tOkJB)
======

Send 'em to us, we'll read 'em- no problem!

124 "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism."

Dennis Prager points this statement as a shining example of the vapidness of OBama because as Dennis says...............

No in fact.... Brit's and Greeks's do NOT think there is such a things as British/Greek execptionalism.

125 they used random number generators to pick personnel for random drug testing in the military.  They could do the same thing here.

126

"Legally "US Person" is meaningless.

It doesn't have any meaning."

 

Every law, term of art, and commandment is simultaneously meaningless and carved in stone these days.  Whether or not you lose your freedom over  running afoul of it depends entirely on who you know, who you blow,  and how much bank you have.

 

Welcome to Amerika.

127

Ummm, the term US Person was not invented by Obama and his minions (and know that I hate both). It's been around for decades and is defined in federal law as . . .

a citizen of the United States
an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence
an unincorporated association with a substantial number of members who are citizens of the U.S. or are aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence
a corporation that is incorporated in the U.S.

So it really is a good thing . . .

 

128 Dear Supreme Leader,

Your assurances mean fuck-all because your administration has already proven that there is NOTHING you won't use for political advantage.

129 Yes. Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 18, 2013 01:02 PM (lVPtV) They did a mind fuck on him before they finally sawed his head off.

130 Any suggestions from you moron computer nerds as to how best to access the files on those drives? What's the OS? If it's older Windows, use Linux-on-a-stick to boot the machine and browse at will. (Seriously, until I think recently it was that easy to circumvent Windows' 'security'. It's one of several reasons I carry a thumbnail installation.)

131 The US Constitution was never intended to afford protections to every Tom, Dick, and Gonzales who enters the country, legal or not.


That is another one of those BS interpretations by the 9 liberal assholes on the bench.

132 MWR, comment 103.

Bingo!

133 "...nothing will change. There's only one way to stop the left, but it won't happen. And we'll be debating semantics and hills to die on all the way to Auschwitz."

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at June 18, 2013 12:36 PM (zF6Iw)

 

Cheer up. We're not dead yet. Where's there's life there's hope.

134 I thought that was already in place. It was in Texas the last time I heard. Admittedly that was several years ago.

Maybe it is, but I'd like to know how workers who shouldn't be able to work, do.  It seems like loads are getting work with fake documents.  Why are they able to get work with fake SSIDs and drivers licenses if a fingerprint check should flag them?

135 As we are seeing, our freedom to carry on our daily lives without a giant government overseeing our every action is nearly gone. If freedom fails here, it will be a long time before mankind ever sees anything like it again.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at June 18, 2013 12:55 PM (0HooB)

 

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

 

I'm finding myself more and more hesitating  and thinking what the government could do to me by something as simple as writing on this blog.

 

Fuck you, NSA.  Fuck you, Baraka.  Fuck you, MoHAMmed.

136 I'm sure someone has already mentioned that 'US person' is intel speak. It's a catch-all term that covers US citizens, legal residents (IIRC), American corporations and such like. And, yes, Jack, you are a 'US person.' Not that it means anything anymore to the pertinent agencies.

137 AND he keeps to that slippery formation of "we don't listen to your calls" (versus "merely" to gather info on everyone you call, when, how often and for how long) and "they don't target" your emails (versus just knowing all your comings and goings on the web, and gathering things that just "inadvertently" get drawn into their data net). Let alone as President, if anyone I knew said to my face said half the things TFG has said "bitter clingers" etc I wouldn't even say hello to him on the street.

138 Oh and term long precedes Obama.

139 I'm an expat living in Israel. Am I a "US person"??? How did it come to this? Posted by: Jak Black at June 18, 2013 12:59 PM (C8jSR) Well your probably one of them right wing wacko joooos from America that cause all the problems!

140 I'm not an animal, I'm a person!

141 Does Obama purposely talk like a buffoon, or is that a relic of his Ivy League education?

142 Jack M,

welcome home buddy it's been too long...my reaction as well the GOp better understand a lot of its base are about to go into "survival mode" politically and if they want to be "representatives of the world" I am not backing them and will vote democrat if need be to remove them.

143

I always wondered about the constitutionality of that.

Not that I'm against it.

 

It's extremely unconstitutional. In theory, and  as written, any officer of the court has to present evidence  of suspected wrongdoing to a judge before any action can be taken on a citizen. Recall that we had cars on roads for many decades before   there were   sobriety checkpoints. 

 

 

These things are a device to ensare as many people as possible in order to weed out the few who may be guilty.  You should be against it.

144 I have both of her computers that have all of the notes from her interviews and communications with fellow enviro-terrorists. The hard drives are password protected but AFAIK not encrypted. Any suggestions from you moron computer nerds as to how best to access the files on those drives?

If those things were obtained illegally, bugger off.

145 Where in the heck do live. In the Carolinas you go around a blind corner and it's "SURPRISE!!" a dozen squad cars and an RV set up as a med clinic, courtroom and holding cell.

Philly.  I believe that policy is true for all of Pennsylvania.

146 Question for the lawyer types: In a case with important implications for individuals at the early stages of a police investigation, the high court said that a suspect must verbally invoke his or her Fifth Amendment right to remain silent to prevent police and prosecutors from using any resulting silence and incriminating body language as evidence of guilt during a jury trial. Does this mean the only possible answer to any police contact should be to immediately plead the Fifth? I am confused.

147

I really hate having to defend Obama, but this really is a big nothing sandwich. My assumption is that the tweet was referring to surveillance powers of the Feds under the Foreign Intelligence Surveilliance Act -- which I know little to nothing about. The statute has a definition for U.S. persons. I think several people above have already pointed it out. The statute grants the Feds authority to "spy" on (a) non-US persons in certain circumstances, and (b) US persons in even more limited circumstances.

@

I suspect this tweet was written by a junior staffer after getting it cleared by someone in the WH Counsel's office.

148 128 Posted by: TRO at June 18, 2013 01:04 PM (mlQIE)

Exactly. Jack, you are letting your Obama vitriol drive you to a poor conclusion. US Person has a definition in US law (and it's not the one you made up.)

149 Oddly, as a non-US citizen, I don't feel offended when the term US citizen is used or that US citizens have privileges I don't in their own country. *rolls eyes*

150 Does Obama purposely talk like a buffoon, or is that a relic of his Ivy League education? Posted by: Jack at June 18, 2013 01:07 PM (LLHgu) haven't you noticed liberals are trying to change the language to help them promote their left wong commie agenda. As in, we can use the term illegal immigrants anymore. What are they? "persons without papers"? What's the new word?

151 Awww...Barry's next speech at the Brandenburg Gate will be to a "vetted" crowd of...2,000.  Seems the German "persons" are over their love affair with TFG.

152

@123

Valid point about the context of the quote. But if Obama tweeted "US resident" (constitutional protections in the US don't depend on legal status), that still is not entirely correct. I am still a US resident when I visit another country, but the NSA can spy on international communications. "US persons" can be a legal nullity and still be a useful twitter shorthand that accurately reflects the fact that spying not allowed on persons in the US and is allowed on persons outside the US. I'm sure there is an argument to be made for spying on illegals inside the country, but it's a dicey proposition.

153 A list of words Obama can't say might be fun..."citizen" is obvious. "Victory" is another. I'm sure others can think of many more.

154 153 Awww...Barry's next speech at the Brandenburg Gate will be to a "vetted" crowd of...2,000. Seems the German "persons" are over their love affair with TFG. Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 18, 2013 01:09 PM (lVPtV) Did they do away with the free sausage and beer they had last time?

155 Because he's one of those "We're all citizens of the world" people and thinks that there shouldn't be any country designations. He wants to really be "king of the world."

156 President Obama: "If you are a U.S. person...

Not for nothing, but why should I believe for an instant a single freaking thing that comes out of this lying, fascist pig's mouth?

157 Will come back and read the entire post and comments later because, battery. I couldn't help but notice you used the word Citizen, as used in the founding documents. As opposed to the word citizen, as used in the 14th amendment. I have never checked it out via Blackstone or wherever. Perhaps some here have. I have read that going to the lower case "c" is where we lost our individual sovereignty and became subjects to US code. Later

158 Geez, it's a broadcast tweet, so they should be using language that the average person understands.

159 The supreme court has ruled that sobriety checkpoints are constitutional if done under certain guidelines.  but they left it up to the States to determine the guidelines.

160 Off NSA sock

161

SCOAMF is only partly correct, in other words, he's lying by omission.  He specifically uses "US Persons" because that is directly from the US Signals Intelligence Directive (USSID) 18 which identifies US persons as US citizens as well as US flagged aircraft and ships (among others).  He is lying when he says NSA cannot target "US Persons".  NSA can target US Persons if they are beleived to be engaged in terrorism related activities, illicit drug trafficking, or other activities detrimental to national security.  However, the targetting of US Persons for SIGINT collection REQUIRES the approval of the US Attorney General.

162 Valid point about the context of the quote. But if Obama tweeted "US resident" (constitutional protections in the US don't depend on legal status), that still is not entirely correct. I am still a US resident when I visit another country, but the NSA canspy on international communications. "US persons" can be a legal nullity and still be a useful twitter shorthand that accurately reflects the fact that spying not allowed on persons in the US and is allowed on persons outside the US. I'm sure there is an argument to be made for spying on illegals inside the country, but it's a dicey proposition.

Posted by: Crispian at June 18, 2013 01:09 PM (n9Zp5)

 

That's the point.  He didn't just tweet this.  This isn't twitter shorthand.  This is what he SAID.      I cannot think of many people who would say "US persons" when the far more common "US residents" would    have just as much impact, even if it's not    all-inclusive. 

163 A list of words Obama can't say might be fun..."citizen" is obvious. "Victory" is another. I'm sure others can think of many more.

Posted by: keninnorcal at June 18, 2013 01:09 PM (A6cQA)

 

To my knowledge, President Obama has never used the word 'liberty' in any context.

164 Posted by: bonhomme at June 18, 2013 01:05 PM (yKTI2)

I should have specified that it was in place re food stamps and other social services  and not work. I'm not saying the illegals didn't get the freebies, they just didn't get to register twice.

165 Me be free by virtue of being born breathing the American atmosphere and pissing American water. Obama be something else.

166

How about this fucking pussy of a POTUS find the sack to stop "leading" from behind and blaming underlings and Congress and hold a prime time presser on NSA programs, removing all doubts as to what he means?

 

He will never ever do this because it mans taking ownership of the program and he will never ever do that. 

167 WE ARE SPARTA PERSONS!!!!

168 US President Barack Obama said on Tuesday it was important to build a strong opposition in Syria that could function after Bashar Assad loses power. It's more important to actually understand who that opposition is, which obviously obama, McCain, and the State Department do not. Sigh

169

164 -- Well if he said it, then I am even more convinced the language he used was written directly by a lawyer based on the statutory language of FISA.

170 I shudder to think of how emboldened the left will become once they have convinced themselves that the last remnants of those who understand our unique tradition and history, and our traditional preference for limited government and individual liberty, have finally been overwhelmed.
=========

The leftists are not going to like this new paradise they think they are building at all . . . .

How full of hate and stupidity do you have to be to gleefully wipe away the common law because it impedes your persecution of those you disagree with?

Yes, yes, I know.

171

"I really hate having to defend Obama, but this really is a big nothing sandwich. "

 

TFG has not earned the benefit of the doubt.  Actually, he richly deserves to have absolutely every syllable that flies out of his cockholster  tirelessly scrutinized and resisted .  Fuck him.

 

Give that fucker  permission  for just the tip and he'll ram it in to the hilt.  How many times do we need to learn this lesson?

 

 

172 To this day, I get a knot in my stomach when I think about Daniel Pearl.

173 86 SCOAMF has nothing to do with "U.S. persons". I worked in signals intelligence starting in 1989, as a sailor in the United States Naval Security Group which comprises part of the National Security Agency. We were trained thoroughly (and aggressively) on the content of United States Signals Intelligence Directive (USSID) 18, which forbade us, back in 1989, from development or retention of any intelligence, whether knowingly or unknowingly collected, concerning "U.S. persons". Posted by: Brendon Carr at June 18, 2013 12:51 PM (PnHfW) What he said, except for the naval stuff.

174 170 US President Barack Obama said on Tuesday it was important to build a strong opposition in Syria that could function after Bashar Assad loses power.

It's more important to actually understand who that opposition is, which obviously obama, McCain, and the State Department do not. Sigh



Well, we now know there are cannibals among them.  As Putin had to point out to our Special Snowflake.

175 Damn you, pixy.

176 Barack Obama:  Overachieving for the American People!

177 Seriously, I can't even use links to Shutterfly to post pics in my name? Is this a blog primarily for the blind?


If the link in my name had worked, I've got a car and/or a "what year was this picture taken?" puzzler for the Horde. I'm just scanning slides through and getting them digitized, without really examining them for labeling purposes yet. But it would be nice to be able to label this one first as it's my Grandfather's garage and that's him standing right there in front with the grey coat and dark hat (if you could see him). Anyone here from the AoS FB page, I'm going to post it over there if you want to give a try.

178

Obama has successfully got us off-topic...

The remainder of his statement was - unless there is a valid court order.  Of course, as we have come to realize, there are likely continuous super secret court orders that give NSA all the power he says they don't have...if they didn't already have those court orders.

179 There's no such thing as a "nothing sandwich" with this asshole, I promise you. Everything he says, especially off teleprompter, is a window into his soul. "I think when you spread the wealth around, its better for everybody." "You didn't build that. Someone else made that happen." "If you are a US Person, the NSA can't listen to your phone calls...." "I read about it in the paper, just like you." Nothing sandwiches?!? Fuck you.

180 Talking to the Taliban: Violence against women not on the cards.

**


#War on Woman!!11!!

181 I think I will be claiming "us person" status any time I'm in the US.

182 Not to be like, a downer or anything, but it also covers US residents that aren't citizens.

183 If citizenship is not that special, then I really have no innate obligations to the state beyond what they can compel me to do, do I?

On a different subject--how is the lynch mob going in Florida? Have they hung Zimmerman yet?

184 I hereby declare myself a Person of US.

185 128 Ummm, the term US Person was not invented by Obama and his minions (and know that I hate both). It's been around for decades and is defined in federal law as . . . a citizen of the United States an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence an unincorporated association with a substantial number of members who are citizens of the U.S. or are aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence a corporation that is incorporated in the U.S. So it really is a good thing . . . Posted by: TRO at June 18, 2013 01:04 PM (mlQIE) Yes. The concepts which were designed to protect us turn sinister in the mouth and hands of BHO and his ilk. That's what happened here. Understandable, but still wrong.

186 Im a U.S. Barrel!

187 US Person is the correct term.  The prohibition against NSA snooping includes non-citizens who are legally in the US unless done at the direction of FBI.

Folks really need to understand, it is AGAINST THE LAW for NSA to operate inside the US against people in the US.  They are aimed outward at foreign threats.  FBI is the agency that snoops domestically.

188 Folks really need to understand, it is AGAINST THE LAW for NSA to operate inside the US against people in the US. They are aimed outward at foreign threats. FBI is the agency that snoops domestically. Posted by: crosspatch at June 18, 2013 01:23 PM (ZbLJZ) I still don't think that most get this.

189 its so cute that you think the NSA is not snooping on US citizens in the US. 

190 193 its so cute that you think the NSA is not snooping on US citizens in the US. Posted by: thunderb at June 18, 2013 01:24 PM (nH8jP) Who thinks this?

191 22 Personism

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 18, 2013 12:35 PM (zdlKj) ------------

 

 

And you're all personists.

192 192 Baldilocks,

I think a lot of people need to grasp that NSA is gathering data for the DHS types to play with...

the data being there is and will be played with...

we can try to stop it now or allow the IRTS to get the paydata too...

193 Even the FISA order for Verizon phone records came from FBI.  They can order information turned over to NSA or can authorize an NSA intercept if NSA has the capability but they have to order it.  NSA can not just routinely snoop domestic US communications and so far to date I see no indication that they have.

194

This absurd obsession with "citzenship," an archaic term with little modern  utility in this interconnected, globalized world where we all share the  responsibility for caring for the  planet and for each other, is clearly an  outgrowth of birtherism, most assuredly demonstrated in the racist Romney  so-called  "campaign" of last November.

195 Please.  A US Citizen is a subset of a US person.
That is, not every US person is a citizen.  The NSA isn't supposed to be spying on people who are living in the US legally...

196 Then how about we only give them a path to US personhood?

197 That's the point. He didn't just tweet this. This isn't twitter shorthand. This is what he SAID. I cannot think of many people who would say "US persons" when the far more common "US residents" would have just as much impact, even if it's not all-inclusive.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at June 18, 2013 01:12 PM (4df7R)

"US residents" is both under- and over-inclusive. And then when it turns out that the US has spied on US residents when they were abroad then we'll attack that too! I just think trying to connect this to a citizen-of-the-world argument is overly strained. Maybe Obama was trying to avoid a term with a definable meaning. Using "persons" sounds a lot broader than "residents" and thus his comment conveys a greater assurance to the unwashed masses. And avoiding a word with a precise definition means its harder to do the gotcha game, unless we bring in the immigration debate or something.

I'm on the same side, but I think there is a straightforward reason he used the otherwise anodyne terms "persons."

198 196 192 Baldilocks, I think a lot of people need to grasp that NSA is gathering data for the DHS types to play with... the data being there is and will be played with... we can try to stop it now or allow the IRTS to get the paydata too... Posted by: Esteban10077@sven10077 at June 18, 2013 01:25 PM (LRFds) A lot of people need to grasp that the NSA has gone outside of its legal mission. A lot of people need to grasp that it has gone rogue and criminal.

199 Put another way:  If NSA were doing the amount of snooping that some accuse them of, they wouldn't NEED metadata from Verizon, they would already have it.  They would already know who called who and when.  They would already have their own database.  They don't, else they wouldn't have needed the damned Verizon data to begin with.

200 I misspoke,you are US subjects.My bad.Fore! Barky the First

201 *crickets*

202 If those things were obtained illegally, bugger off. Posted by: bonhomme at June 18, 2013 01:07 PM (yKTI2) Nope -- she left them with her boyfriend when she left him nearly 10 years ago and he gave them to me. Oh, and be sure to harness all your righteous indignation to write to everyone at the IRS telling them to "bugger off" too. Jackhole.

203 197 Crosspatch,

Yup and IRS can't go on partisan crusades, and Ohio's family services database cvan't be used to leak private data and....

er where the hell are we again this must be some alternate Earth

204 You can be a U.S. Person, or you can be a U.N. Person. Or, if you don't like those, you can be an un-person, wingnut.

205 Even the FISA order for Verizon phone records came from FBI. They can order information turned over to NSA or can authorize an NSA intercept if NSA has the capability but they have to order it. NSA can not just routinely snoop domestic US communications and so far to date I see no indication that they have.

Posted by: crosspatch at June 18, 2013 01:26 PM (ZbLJZ)

 

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

Well, then, you need to sober up and pay attention.

206 We are all just clones in poor fitting generic plastic white armor in Obama's world. Now excuse me, I have to get back to my post.

207 I am a "Health Care Provider" too.  Soon words won't mean anything.

208

Here's the problem, everyone.

 

it doesn't matter that "US persons" is the correct term.

 

It doesn't matter.

 

Obammy's entire point in doing this interview with Rose was to come out and say, "Look, we're doign all this stuff, but it's illegal for us to do the stuff we're being ACCUSED of doing.  To do that stuff we have to get a warrant."

 

Oh, okay.

 

Any of you believe that?

 

Of course not.

 

Obama has lost    our trust.  Not just ours, either; many people have stopped trusting him (fucking FINALLY).    In taht situation your best bet is to come out and be AS    CLEAR AS G-DDAMN POSSIBLE.  

 

"US persons" is not clear.   It is not clear outside of the intelligence community and various bureaucratic arms of the DoD.   No one else knows what it means.  

 

It's "meat soup."

 

All it does is reinforce the image and the belief that our government is comprised of mealy-mouthed weasels who will say anything to offset blame for their mistakess.  

 

If Obammy didn't want to be viewed as a mush-mouthed, sybillant, ass-faced traitor with a lying mouth and forked tongue, he should have picked a different     phrase.

 

You can read the relevant portion of the transcript at Buzzfeed (*spit!*) if you feel so moved.   The man cannot speak without stammering and crunching his words, though, so have fun.

 

Buzzfeed: http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpolitics/president-obama-defends-nsa-spying

209 There is a disturbance in the TwitterForce.

I sense several thousand of words even now being pounded out by an Angry Ewok on the subject of Angry Elves.

210

204I misspoke,you are US subjects.My bad.Fore!
Barky the First

-----

But you have to be on your knees to address him.

211 202 Baldilocks,

Quite...I was uncomfortable enough with lesser versions of these powers under Bush a man I trusted despite my political differences....

the left considered going to FISA to get permission to listen in on foreign phone calls "Naziesque"....

now Bark "punish my enemies" Obama expands the questionable machine?

A lot of us warned people in the post 9/11 DHS superstate birthing era that we wouldn't have power forever....

time to treat the donks like they treated Bush

212 Crosspatch, I, for one, do not believe that there is a "Chinese wall" separating the investigations of the NSA and the FBI.  They are coordinating, and using the FISA court to cover their tracks.  And I think they are "randomly" sampling communications of US persons in the US extra-judicially.  I do not give them the benefit of the doubt any longer.  I can't imagine why anyone would

213 Ah, my skills at posting a comment to a thread just as a new post goes up are undiminished, I see.

214 Jack M - you are on point 100%. Was watching coverage of the hearing this morning and I convulsed when I heard the prick use the term "U S person". This Administration is full of people who care far more for centralizing their power than they do for upholding the Constitution - a document that "gets in the way" of their main objective. I hope they all die and go to hell. Other than that, it's a hap hap happy day!

215 Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit at June 18, 2013 01:31 PM (4df7R) Shorter version: everything he touches turn to shit.

216 Well, then, you need to sober up and pay attention.

Posted by: Soona at June 18, 2013 01:30 PM (3xu5j) -------------------------------

 

Huh, What?

217 198 This absurd obsession with "citzenship," an archaic term with little modern utility in this interconnected, globalized world where we all share the responsibility for caring for the planet and for each other, is clearly an outgrowth of birtherism, most assuredly demonstrated in the racist Romney so-called "campaign" of last November.

Posted by: The L.A. Times Editorial Staff at June 18, 2013 01:26 PM (/AHDz) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

AND you pro-lifers really mean pro-white baby life so you can continue to foster white supremacy and keep people of color a permanent minority. Fucking raaaacism is alive and well...and thank God so I can have a Department of Africana studies and tenure.

218 How does a phone record indicate US personhood?

219 O/T but sort of on topic with everything going on lately.  I recently moved to Kentucky from Connecticut (Yeah!!!) and when I went to get my drivers liscence I had to bring my actual Social Security card.  The Lady put that number in the computer and it went around for more than a few minutes and finally came back OK.  It took some time because I used to have a CDL and that caused some delay, but she gave me my new liscence.  Is that normal procedure for all States?

220
So, after having 4 big scandals in our grasp, this is what we're left with?

The only thing this post is missing is a stern And a good day to you, sir! at the end.

221 NSA spying clearly displays poor customer service to US persons.

222 I think the term Obama was looking for was U.S. Americans.

223 224 soothsayer,

Mitt Romney was demonized successfully for hiring women.....and putting a dog on the roof....

fuck it I give up

224 223 JohnnyReb,

It was for Texas....

225

Sponge

I don't get the anger directed my way. But whatever.

Look, in this instance Obama is just stating what the actual law is -- and he is right, under FISA NSA cannot target "US persons" (which is a term expressly defined in FISA) in the US. We can still argue over whether the PRISM program was really consistent witht the letter or the spirit of the law.

There are so many legitimate places to criticize Obama and find bad faith on his part (e.g., IRS, Benghazi, Voting Rights Act enforcement, etc.), I am not sure why we are focusing on a the President's use of a legal term that came straight out of a federal statute and was almost certainly written by a lawyer for the President's use.

226 222 How does a phone record indicate US personhood? Posted by: Randall Hoven at June 18, 2013 01:34 PM (YxJKp There are ways, though most of it is classified. However, I suspect that it won't be for much longer.

227 "“United States person” means a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as defined in section 1101 (a)(20) of title , an unincorporated association a substantial number of members of which are citizens of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or a corporation which is incorporated in the United States, but does not include a corporation or an association which is a foreign power, as defined in subsection (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this section."
What is an "alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence" also known as a permanent resident alien? This attorney defines it as "An alien admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident. Permanent residents are also commonly referred to as immigrants; however, the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) broadly defines an immigrant as any alien in the United States, except one legally admitted under specific nonimmigrant categories (INA section 101(a)(15)). An illegal alien who entered the United States without inspection, for example, would be strictly defined as an immigrant under the INA but is not a permanent resident alien. Lawful permanent residents are legally accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States. They may be issued immigrant visas by the Department of State overseas or adjusted to permanent resident status by the Immigration and Naturalization Service in the United States."

228

Our local sheriff's department gets warrants when they want to check your computer for evidence of illegal activity.  It sounds like the NSA has a secret FISA warrant to allow them to collect all the information on our computers and store it for perpetuity.

 

The claim by the legal head of the NSA that the information is already public because the phone companies, etc. have it, is ridiculous.  Our local law enforcement agencies do not just go out and gather that information without a warrant under the guise that it is already public.

 

What we Americans are being asked to do is to waive our rights on anything and everything by admitting that whatever we do is not-private.

 

It's simple, when we transact through a business, the government shouldn't have a right to that information unless there is a warrant to get that information.  That warrant shouldn't be granted willy nilly like what it seems the FISA court is doing.

 

We cannot allow them to say that all that information is free for their taking simply because a corporation has that information.  It's the government and they need a warrant.

229 NSA can not just routinely snoop domestic US communications and so far to date I see no indication that they have. Posted by: crosspatch at June 18, 2013 01:26 PM (ZbLJZ) Try this: The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls, a participant said. Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed on Thursday that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that." If the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee. Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls. http://tinyurl.com/mpjlpb5 Of course it's been walked back by the Obama administration. Which, apparently, is good enough for you. Sucker.

230

Even the FISA order for Verizon phone records came from FBI. They can order information turned over to NSA or can authorize an NSA intercept if NSA has the capability but they have to order it. NSA can not just routinely snoop domestic US communications and so far to date I see no indication that they have.
Posted by: crosspatch at June 18, 2013 01:26 PM (ZbLJZ)

 

I keep seeing people use this   "cannot"   term in relation to what the NSA/FBI/CIA/DOJ, etc, are allowed to do.

 

With all due respect,   that's BS.

 

"Cannot"   and "should not" are not the same thing.    What prevents the NSA from doing what they're accused of is that they should not do it.  It is illegal,   it is against the administrative rules, and it's frankly immoral.

 

But so is murder, and that happens every day.

 

This administration has not earned one OUNCE of trust sufficient       to give     it    the benefit of the doubt.      I will believe that the government leviathan follows the law when they start acting like the law applies to them.  

 

 

231 What do you expect from a Kenyan or Indonesian Person.

232       It is difficult finding a persons, personhood these days.

anyway as Obama doesn't really have issues  demeaning the special privileges an America has Because of the constitution which He also doesn't have an issue with demeaning the meaning .
We know He knows how to use significant  terms  when He feels like it.

so it's hard for me to give him a pass, and yes  because I have found many previous comments by Him to limit america's specialness to Americans.
 I don't imagine He and others that think like Him believe we shouldn't be afforded sovereignty , as we see with many of the legislation Him and other that Agree with Him try to pass.
I am not a a world citizen in the context they use it. I am an american that does care about other countries citizens , but not at the throat cutting of our Own Country sovereignty.

233 nood post

234 US Persons just can't cut it, like Mexican Persons.

235 of course there is a new post!

sheesh i hate that.

236

"Cannot" and "should not" are not the same thing. What prevents the NSA from doing what they're accused of is that they should not do it. It is illegal, it is against the administrative rules, and it's frankly immoral.

 

So is using the IRS to target your political enemies.  And the Obama regime would never do that.

 

Oh wait.

237

"US persons" is not clear. It is not clear outside of the intelligence community and various bureaucratic arms of the DoD. No one else knows what it means.

 

Well, yes, actually the term US Persons within the meaning of FISA is crystal clear. Here you go:

@

"'United States person' means [1] a citizen of the United States, [2] an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence . . . [3] an unincorporated association a substantial number of members of which are citizens of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or [4] a corporation which is incorporated in the United States . . ."

238 He (like the NSA director) is parsing the meaning of "listen".  He means it in the very narrow sense of a phisical human actually listening to the call.  Of course the NSA doesn't have the manpower to "listen" to all calls by "US Persons" or even "Non-US Persons" for that matter.  What has become painfully obvious over the last week or so is that NSA is using the capability they've had for years to monitor foreign communications on US comms.  They are now almost certainly using computers to scan and even transcribe all calls in the US looking for keywords and indications.  Key words such as "Obama",  "Jug-eared", "Putz", etc. and then sending info on any "suspicious" conversations to the BATF, FBI, DHS, or, of course, the IRS.  There have been a lot of reported cases lately of US citizens getting visits from the SS, or DHS, etc. asking those citizens about their political views.  Often the person is surprised about how they came to the attention of Obama's Goon Squads.  Now we know how.

239 Hard drives password protected? Take them up to high place and drop them. That'll break the encryption. Brute Force Cybernetics. Create the need, then fill it.

240 'US persons' is used in surveillance/intelligence laws and it includes legal residents who are not registered agents of foreign powers and artificial persons created under US law (i.e. corporations, LLCs, etc.). I was tested on this concept in military intelligence training. They didn't spontaneously invent it as some sort of stealth insult.

241

how about in light of their use of the IRS, the EPA, and other instrumentalities of government it would be foolish to take their word for it no matter what the legal definitions are

 

fool me once....

242 Here's the thing: going off on a term that's been in use for decades by a group of professionals is pointless and silly. It has never had anything to do with the watering down of US citenzenship. SCOAMF merely copied the wording he saw printed in USSID 18. Or one of his aides did, more likely. That term and wording has been there for at least 40 years. It means nothing and, of course he has violated this prohibition...just as is so with all of the other laws which prohibit tyranny.

243 In my experience, "U. S. person" is HR Dept legalese for all people legally entitled to reside and work in the U. S., be they citizens or legal residents. Not saying it is not disturbing in this usage, just informing you all where this jargon comes from.

244 This statement from the Obama administration, by itself, is not a cause for alarm. U.S. Person is a key concept in SIGINT circles. It just shows they're thinking a lot about the legality of the program. What's interesting is that the more you talk about SIGINT topics in the open, the more prone you are to start discussing things in the arcane lingo of the field. Certain discussions are not meant to be had outside the SCIF, and once you start trying to have them, you find that talking around them tends to reveal more than you mean to. Any answer beyond 'We can't talk about that outside of a secure facility' gives a clue as to what you're hiding, and answering some questions and not others starts to sketch out your position. That's where all this is heading. Talking around SIGINT capabilities never works for long. It's too hard to keep precisely straight what you know and what they don't. Eventually, you wind up having discussions where you can't say certain nouns, but otherwise understand each other completely.

245 you're gonna be an un-person now Jack.

246 'Pluskat's Dog'

Great nickname. I bet it was a draw whether the dog or his owner hit the floor quicker over a slammed door after June 6, 1944.

247 What is a US Person? Is there a legal construct? If you can just cross into this border at any time, would a tourist from France also be a "US Person" and therefore not be subjected to the NSA? How about "dreamer" in Pakistan? Sure he may not have ever set foot in the US, but since he dreams of one day doing so, is he a "US Person"? Obama is spying on all US Persons you guys.

248 Attach a non-legal term to a legal term and you've got meaningless bullshit.

249 "US Person" is a distinction that is in FISA.

250 153 Awww...Barry's next speech at the Brandenburg Gate will be to a "vetted" crowd of...2,000. Seems the German "persons" are over their love affair with TFG.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at June 18, 2013 01:09 PM (lVPtV)

****************

I hear the first line of the Ben Rhodes speech for Obama in Berlin is Ich bin ein Stasi.

251 The concept of native-born citizenship as an exclusionary tactic is so racist it makes me sick. Why do you silly right-wingers cling to it? What difference does it make where our beloved multiracial President was born, or the next millions to vote for Him were born?

252 Okay so U.S. person is an actual term, but why would Verizon have records for any one who isn't a U.S. person then? I mean how is anyone using a Verizon phone if they aren't a citizen, legal immigrant, temporary resident of the United States? Are we talking strictly burner phones that are unregistered? other pre-paid phones purchased by persons legally or illegally in the United States? I just don't understand who the program operates against then. No calls between non-US persons and US persons then? This whole thing is very confusing if one is to believe the BS that is being spewed out of Washington.

253

OH, I feel much safer now! All this to protect lil ole me? WOW. Do I get a free lobotomy with my obamacare?

254

"A world where everyone is exceptional means a world where no one is exceptional."

Crap.  Now you tell me. 

If I had it all to do over, I would have run for President, not Super Villain.

255

The phrase "US person" is commonly used in the intelligence community to describe the "domestic" targets that you can't collect against.  It's broader than just individual US citizens:  it includes US companies, permanent legal residents, etc.

So talking about "US persons" in the context of intelligence and domestic targets is totally normal.  If he'd said NSA couldn't snoop on "US citizens", that would raise the question of whether he was implying it could snoop on other "US persons".

There are lots of valid reasons to criticize this administration, but using the term "US persons" really doesn't belong on the list.

256 250 'Pluskat's Dog'

Great nickname. I bet it was a draw whether the dog or his owner hit the floor quicker over a slammed door after June 6, 1944.
Thanks.  You're the first person who's let me know the get it (I also use it online while playing UT2004).  I've always wondered if the dog made it through the war alive.  I guess I should reread the book to see if there's anything about that.   As for the "they're only collecting Meta-Data" meme, the computer scanned keyword data counts as "Meta-Data".  So do the voice print signatures they're collecting.  This all such a farce and everybody in the media (even the conservatives) know too little about intelligence collection to see it.

257 It's weird that SCOAMF would use an ITAR term (I've always assumed he's in favor of handing out our technology to our enemies willy-nilly), but let's not run around spouting stuff as ignorantly as he does. Posted by: HeatherRadish™ needs a beer at June 18, 2013 12:34 PM (ZKzrr) I don't for a minute believe that ole' jug ears has any clue what ITAR is, he'd probably claim it was a lousy movie starring Hoffman and Beatty.

258 Are you a #USPerson, a DogPerson or a CatPerson?

259 Huge critic of Obama but I think "US Person" is a legal term for citizens plus legal residents.  I heard it in the NSA Director's testimony this morning.

This is kind of like the recent misplaced criticism of the NRA by mental health advocates for using the term "mental defective" even though it is an exact reference to a term in the Gun Control Act of 1968 (still on the books) and not something they came up with.

260 At least he didn't say "U. S. folks".

261 "US Person" refers to a subclass of person, one who may or may not be a citizen but instead who is obligated to report and pay US taxes on his worldwide income. IOW, under the thumb of the US government and just another debt serf, as all citizens are. IMO, BHO did not invent anything new, he has just carelessly told the truth. People here on H1-B visas may not be citizens, but they sure are US Persons.

262 It's still so weird to have someone running the country that seems to hate the country. Who would ever have imagined that ever happening?

263 It's a term of art. It's broader than U.S. citizen. You could look it up. Really.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=United+States+Person

264 It doesn't take a birther to wonder at the mentality of our "constitutional professor" president.

Some of us have been examining the nuance of citizen, naturalized citizen, and natural born citizen. The rest of the world are aliens and foreigners.

Your president would have you believe something that just isn't true...either by reason, current law or its' precedent.

Yes, I'm a birther. Perhaps those that have been wearing the tinfoil aren't as nuts as some would so easily dismiss as paranoid conspiracy theorists.

Founding founders and US persons.

What's next? I can't imagine.

265 The person who wrote this is absolutely correct: "US Person is defined as: A U.S Citizen, A person known to be a permanent resident alien (defined as a foreign national LAWFULLY admitted into the US for permanent residence), an unincorporated association substantially comprised of citizens or permanent resident aliens; or a corporation incorporated in the US and not directly controlled by a foreign government." And for the purposes of Obama's statement, that definition is the only applicable one. However, he said: "If you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls and the NSA cannot TARGET your emails." THIS is where Obama is playing with words. According to Executive Order 12333, NSA cannot COLLECT on US persons. And that is exactly what they are doing right now.

266 Obama is just so bad at being an American. (US person)? Who says that?

267

The term "U.S. person" has a specific legal meaning. Take 5 seconds to look it up on wikipedia before you spend half an hour ranting indignantly.

If Obama had used "citizen" instead, it would have changed the meaning of his tweet.

268