Common sense and very good advice.  I have practiced this for years, and have taught my children, ( and sometimes their friends)  the same prinicples.

Add to this, have a Rainly Day fund that is invoilate except in cases of emergency.

Seriously guys, these are all excellent goals. B'Gal and I have downsized a lot over the last few years, out of necessity.

Having a real budget will serve to understand how money works, something about which our betters in Washington seemingly have no idea. It strikes me as  rather strange that when we cons insist that the federal government behave as we do, we're labeled as "extremists."

It's almost as if they don't know what a budget is. Are we sure the  Know Nothings didn't have a resurgence as a national party without anybody seeing it?

Posted by: toby928© drinks the sweet tea of despair at March 16, 2013 01:24 PM (QupBk)

-

15%    minimum savings - I have run the numbers.

Nice first post, chemjeff.

But it's sort of preaching to the choir...to those of us who've been doing this already. 

Can't be said enough, though...since people obviously tend to forget these things over time.

At what point, historically, does the public sector finally suffer

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at March 16, 2013 01:37 PM (AC0lD)

It's usually called a revolution.

I cannot understand why people   rack up enormous amounts of debt on credit cards, especially since you can't   write off  the interest on your taxes anymore. When I was married to the Daughter of Satan, I had to try to explain how our household expenses went  way  up when that law  was passed.

It was like talking to a wall.

Tax the socialist supporting crony billionaires into poverty. They use the government to rob you and the proles to make it look democratic.

This knee-jerk con thing about not taxing the very elitist crony fascists who rape you from both ends of the political spectrum is self-defeating.

If you support socialist pols and socialist policy, Mr. Billionaire, you pay for it.

>>Get your hands dirty. Learn a skill that will be needed in the Burning Time.

Just starting on that with the kids. Which is why the girl is putting a new door knob on right now. Yeh, it's not exactly a necessary skill for the Burning Time, but it did end up being complicated and involved chiseling.

>>Learn to cook

Oh yeh.

43 At what point, historically, does the public sector finally suffer

Maybe a good first step, would be to start calling it the 'government sector'.

That quaint old idea that the 'public sector' serves the public...is dead.

It died when they created their own unions.

The government sector has become a predator that preys on We the People.

It has it's own unions, to bully us better and extort even more benefits for itself.

Never, ever give money to a person, business, oe entity that does not agree with your ideology.

===

A comprehensive list would be a good post.

Posted by: pep at March 16, 2013 01:41 PM (6TB1Z)

Well think of it this way.  Even LIV's use seat belts and condoms (well, mostly).  That's because it is just so culturally ingrained that these are the proper, prudent things to do.  The idea that people should live with low amounts of debt isn't there yet, but the plan is to push the culture in that direction.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at March 16, 2013 01:43 PM (Gk3SS)

-

ExxonMobil is paying     2.5% dividend, and is more financially secure than 75% of the governments of the world.

We don't usually have credit card debt, but I'm not horrified when it does happen for a month or two. I use the Discover Card and use their cash back as much as possible, esp. for ordering stuff online, like LandsEnd for example, which gives you 10% back. And they have special quarterly deals for gas or groceries or whaterver.

I'm sure other cards have similar deals...use and abuse them!

If I may  suggest another idea: spend as much time with your kids and grandkids as you can and pass along as much wisdom as you can to them, particularly  about money. Teach them how to do stuff around the house, use tools, work on  vehicles, sharpen knives and scissors and little stuff like that there.

Common sense   must be nurtured in the yoots   until it takes   hold.

I've often wondered about the debt thing.

I'm of the mind that not all debt is created equal.

Firstly is of course the idea of OPM (as my dad call's it) Other People's Money.

The wife and I have been trying to figure out what a reasonable use of short term debt is.  For example, we bought a couch.  A nice couch, expensive couch.  We had 100% of the money sitting in an account, but took the 6 months interest free because, hey why not, we get a small amount of interest on the money in savings then for 6 months while we pay it down.

Also, gives us a little more of a cushion in case of an emergency (in "cash on hand" terms.)

With long term debt, I think it's an interesting question.  The ability to plunk down cash for a house is just really out of the question, I think.  Even aggressively saving I suspect it would have taken me 10 years to save for what I have now on my affordable mortgage.  Tricky question.

I would add #4: Take good care of your property, adding value with your own two hands if you can.

Obviously the caveat is "and it makes sense." division of labor is still a good thing (it makes no sense for me to learn plumbing rather than do what my actual skill is and then pay a plumber) but the general idea is there.  Put some effort into things like your yard or the inside of your house or whatever property you own as a matter of pride of ownership and possibly adding value.

Well, I'm looking at it from the other way around. For instance, what if, the real reason why politicians don't seem to mind running up enormous debts, is because they are put in office by voters who (in the main) also don't seem to mind enormous debts in their own lives?

Posted by: chemjeff at March 16, 2013 01:32 PM (BBWjt)

Yep. This is why the 24th Amendment was madness. Not conditioning voting on a poll tax was sensible enough, but prohibiting conditioning it on paying ANY tax was madness.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at March 16, 2013 01:46 PM (/i3Yt)

Right up until they get nationalized.

Posted by: DaveA at March 16, 2013 01:46 PM (DL2i+)

You're right, Dave, if our government decides to just start confiscating shit, none of this matters.  This strategy presumes the government doesn't do that.

If the government does, then it's time for Plan B.

Posted by: Ook? at March 16, 2013 01:51 PM (OQpzc)

-

At the point XOM gets nationalized, no financial instrument has any worth     with the exception   of lead.

These tips are very wise. Wise like my Father, the former Emperor of African Dynasty of Big Cash Horde.

However, in today's world of poverty and desperation, why spend time doing all of these most difficult tribulations.

If you would contact my Counsellor Mr. Thomas Goodfortune, he will assist you in a most beneficent manner.

Hint. We have Billions in a National Bank that we have reserved in your Name. We only wish to share with you our good fortune.

Please forward your Bank Routing #; that's the number of your account on your Bank Statement. Or, if easier just send your most recent Statement.

Oh joyfulness, your account will soon not be recognizable, as many things will have happened.

57...The next time someone in the office asks where are you going on vacation, say truthfully "I'm taking a nice trip - and it's debt-free!" That will garner as many comments as the destination itself, and that will nudge the culture just a wee bit more in our direction.

Posted by: chemjeff at March 16, 2013 01:41 PM (BBWjt)

----------

Sorry, chemjeff...that would more likely come across as 'bragging', and not be received well.

It's all in delivery, though.

Prolly be better to phrase it like:

"We're trying to cut down on our debt, so we will be going to ____, since that is all we can afford to pay cash for."

Or something like that.

We could always invest in Lace Wigs and Caterpillar filters.

It's the least we could  do since they've been so nice to   teh Horde   over the  years.

>>Oh and by the way I have no idea why the time on the post says 12:14 PM

You got the keys to the blog but not the Time Machine instruction manual??

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 16, 2013 02:00 PM (SUKHu)

heh - I am but mere Padawan Blogger

>>And frugal cooks, recipes will always be welcome!

I had a moment in Walmart this morning.

The packaged shredded cheese section was bigger than the 1-2 lb. blocks of cheese section.

A thought something like "a center made of shredded cheese cannot hold" or something...maybe that wasn't it exactly...

69...The government sector has become a predator that preys on We the People. 
 

Posted by: wheatie at March 16, 2013 01:43 PM (rwujx)

Yup. Notice who didn't get their balls cut off in Cyprus...

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 16, 2013 01:44 PM (GEICT)

----------

Exactly.

'We' worry about living within our budgets....but the government sector gets to live worry-free, and charge their salaries to our children's credit cards!

Posted by: RkinRoanoke at March 16, 2013 01:57 PM (pxur/)

Congratulations!

Yeah I went through Financial Peace University myself.  It is a good class.  The support group was really necessary for me.

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 16, 2013 02:05 PM (SUKHu)

Oh I think it's been that way for a while now.  I can't remember the last time I actually grated my own cheese, actually.  I wonder if today's tweeners even know how to grate cheese without tearing up their fingers.

>>So what the hell is there that's low risk?

Guns and ammo.

Well, except for the high risk of them getting lost in a boating accident.

The reported inflation is a lie. Add in food and fuel prices. Then be ready for sticker shock.

Yet another thing I can't understand is why no one on the right is pointing this out. Of course they'd be called "RAYCISSTT!!1111Elebenty!11!", but that would be a good opportunity to call bullshit on that, too.

Just  get down  to brass tacks and point out that we don't have to settle for the disaster that Progressive politics has wreaked upon us all. We could have a good economy, stable growth and a balanced budget, if we'd start electing pols who had at least a reasonable idea of how an economy works   and how wealth is created.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 16, 2013 02:05 PM (SUKHu)

I have found in some places that the incrimetnal cost for shredded cheese is  only a few cents per pound.

Even if I eat 100lbs of cheese per year, I'm not entirely sure it's justified to buy block cheese and shred it myself.  (Especially considering the cost of cleaning.)

Interesting side note: nothing causes you to rethink a budget like knowing your job is ending.

Coincidentally, my parent's birthday gift to me and my wife this year: Sam's Club membership (they had no idea about the job thing either.)

>>I wonder if today's tweeners even know how to grate cheese without tearing up their fingers.

My 12 year old came in while I was typing that!

My 10 year daughter does know how. 

The 12 year old is starting to understand what I'm saying about needing to be in the group of people who can do stuff. I guess he'll be grating the cheese for the homemade mac 'n cheese on Monday's menu...

120...Well yeah it is all in delivery. (And IMO it is okay to brag a little bit.) But don't sell the debt-free way as some sort of drag or hardship. 

Bragging is never good, chemjeff.

It will get you branded as the 'goat' and your message will be the brunt of jokes.

Being humble and frugal by example, is a much better way to convey your message.

easiest ways to save money

1.  have a SON, not a DAUGHTER

2. don't marry a model

winner comment:  "ChristinaMarch 15, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Marc is an investment banker and Chelsea works for a private equity group/hedge fund. They epitomize the ultra-wealthy evil corporatists that the left loves to demonize in the press, and do favors for behind closed doors."

Now that's conservative livin'

5 months ago I was unemployed. By looking for a job and working my ass off, today I'm assistant manager of a restaurant second only to the owners.

BOOM! Fuck your welfare.

Mac 'n cheese with bacon, that is.

>>Chicken Parm

Yum.

****looks down at cats****

3.  when the cats reach 20lbs....eat them

Posted by: Jenny hates her phone at March 16, 2013 02:16 PM (05NCS)

Well I love cheese, so that last bit is not eaten thoughtlessly EVER.

Also it varies depending on how I feel.  For mac & Cheese if I have time I will grate my own cheese because I find the anti-clump stuff adds a texture to the mac and cheese I don't like.

For burritos: screw it bagged stuff.

137 He got the rifle, I got the rack.

 

Who said it?

Palin, today at Cpac.

It was a great speech...except when she used the term "crony capitalist".

I wish she would stop using that term.

It was coined by Leftists...to demonize capitalism.

>>The price per ounce is different by like a tenth of a cent.

Ha. I just assumed it was more expensive.

Sometimes it's too dried out, though.

I've got to start making pizza at home. It's a family tradition to have it every Friday night. I ordered it yesterday and almost fainted at how much it was. Yeh, we get a bunch of leftover meals out of it, but still...

Posted by: wheatie at March 16, 2013 02:15 PM (rwujx)

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, IMO if you're too humble then your good deeds just get overlooked.

Drive your car into the ground. If you can't or don't want to fix it yourself, get a good referral for a mechanic (somebody you go to church with is a smart pick) to keep it running for you.

Cars used to be worth 100,000 miles. After that, the cost of rings and valves relative to a new car wasn't worth it.

Now they run 300K routinely and new cars cost a year's wages. If you don't have that to throw around, don't take out a mortgage for it.

So your carosaur isn't fashionable. Any friends who say so aren't your friends.

172  why?  you've already lost the house in 2014

time to let it burn

171  yes you are

I laugh at your misery because misery loves company

69 Maybe a good first step, would be to start calling it the 'government sector'.

Also:  instead of saying "prices went up", say "the dollar is buying less."  

Good  tip  Michael.

No homo.

>>Machines are better suited to shred cheese.

That's why I have the shredder attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer!

I'll show the kids how to use that next week...

Living conservatively? Well, gee, let's see: I pay off my credit cards every month. I shop for stuff that's on sale. I keep to a budget.

 I help ensure that the obese welfare recipients I see at the grocery store with full carts never run out of Doritos and ice cream.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at March 16, 2013 02:23 PM (jucos)

lol precisely

sons aren't cheaper than daughters

Americans   just   need to learn how to  make   friggin   pizza. 

How hard can it be?

At the last Texas Republican Convention I attended, I noticed a fair number of families there. Yes, you could bring your kids onto the floor with you. Dads and moms sat together as delegates; someone had thoughtfully set up play equipment at the back of the hall so the little ones had something fun to do.

The fathers looked like farmers: denim, plaid, and work boots. The mothers had brought their knitting with them. BTW, these weren't old people; middle-aged at most, and some looked to be in their early 30s.

I thought, Wow, isn't this awesome that they've taken time away from home and work to participate here. It probably cost them, but you know they didn't borrow money to do it. They saved up and made the trip because they cared.

This is what the GOP should look like. Start local and make it happen, friends.

175 comments  in and not one hobo recipe?

Sometimes I don't know who you are, people in my computer.

So....'cronyism' only exists under capitalism?

It's the fault of capitalism that 'cronyism' occurs in a system of capitalism?

>>it's the left that's actually guilty of it....

>>For every crony capitalist there must be a conjugate crony socialist.

Green crony socialists conjugating all over the place...

God willing, in about six months I'll have my credit card debt paid off and then all that will be left is the mortgage and the car payment, both manageable.

I'm seriously considering trying to move to part time work simply so that I'm not feeding the beast as much.

207 Funny...it's the left that's actually guilty of it.... just like fascism

Exactly.

Cronyism is the opposite of free-market capitalism.

It flourishes under socialism and communism, when government money is used to reward those who are loyal to the government.

OK, I don't even understand the basic concept of what this article is about, let along live it.

First of all, let's examine life itself.  This is it, one time around and this is definitely not a dress rehearsal.  As much as the religious among us would like us to think, there is no reward waiting for us in the afterlife for frugally managing our money.

Second, unless you are forced by some circumstances that are impossible to overcome to strictly work for wages, you need to use whatever money you have to invest in something to make more money.

Third, don't overstress over debt.  It doesn't matter to someone who can't pay off $50,000 in debt if they owe $50,001 or $50 million.  Once you hit zero, that's as far down as you can go. 

Forth, unless you are involved in blatant, knowing fraud, don't obsess about paying a bank back if your business goes bad.  They would fuck you without a second thought and you should treat them the same way.

Fifth, as far as conservative principles, taking chances and risking capital are the very sole of conservatism.  Take the risks and if you fail, get back up and risk it all again.

Sixth and most importantly - live well.  You're only here a short time, so enjoy every day.

Befriend a young person you have influence with...

Which reminds me.  A friend lives next door to a county cop who's going to retire soon.  She asked him if the order to confiscate weapons came from on high, would the local county cops (red county) comply.  He said 50/50!  We were stunned.  He said the young guys have been so dumbed down they don't realize they swore an oath to the Constitution and not Obysmal.  Our sheriff is a TEA Partier and sets his young charges a'right right off the bat.

In years past I would shrug at the convenience fees I was charged for various things such as paying my gas bill by phone because, duh "convenience." But now I am doing all I can to minimize those type of charges. Also the Keurig has more than paid for itself because I'm down from 2+ Starbucks a day to maybe 1 one month if I am meeting a friend there.

I do buy shredded cheese though. Since it is just my son and me we never seem to go through cheese fast enough and the bags are often on sale for cheaper than the block. But, if I need a lot of cheese I do buy the block and shred it myself. I tend to use my Cuisinart, even though I have that Kitchenaid attachment too.

. Just like the red state of Texas stands as an example of a successful conservative model of governance,

--Texas will be blue in less than 20 years and the surplus will be gone

Also, stay married, don't have kids too early in life, always buy used cars, take care of your knees, and always wear sunscreen.

It's just so awesome to be driving a car with like 3 miles on the   odometer.  But yeah.

And the back,  don't fuck up your back. 

233 I don't mind the term crony capitalist so long as it used to properly identify crony capitalists.

 

Like Solyndra and all those green scams.

That's the thing....they're not capitalists.

They are corrupt.

If you like the term "crony capitalist"....then how about the term "vulture capitalist"?

People tore at their hair when Newt and Perry used that term.

I didn't like that term any better.

Find activities that don't cost a lot of money and build up your social circle. 

Keep active.  You don't have to be a model with rock hard abs or a triathlete to get the advantages.  Buy some used weights for your garage and go for a run every once in a while.  You'll feel better and it will help to prevent major injuries down the road.

Posted by: jwest at March 16, 2013 02:34 PM (u2a4R)

The idea, succinctly, is that: (1) we should practice what we preach, and (2) get a little bit of mileage out of it by illustrating to others the successful results.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at March 16, 2013 02:36 PM (RZ8pf)

I was lucky enough to inherit one from my sister -- who doesn't even drink coffee!  Where you'll really rack up the savings is by using an EKO Brew refillable cup.  (I'm no greenie, but that's the only one I've found that doesn't deliver grounds with your joe.)  I like my coffee strong enough to chew, and that cup allows you to use French roast filled to the absolute top, using the medium-cup setting for a perfect cup of coffee. 

Posted by: Truck Monkey at March 16, 2013 02:39 PM (jucos)

Go for it.  With the rates as low as they are, mortgage everything you possibly can and just bank the cash. 

If you're just starting a business, plan on everything going wrong at the worst possible time.  The only cure is cash that you can get your hands on.  Don't depend on credit lines, because the minute they smell something going bad the banks will pull or reduce your available credit.

You're the future.  Fuck living on ramen and mac and cheese.  Take risks and enjoy the rewards.

Posted by: major major major major at March 16, 2013 02:39 PM (utCAk)

Well, I would urge people to think about debt in less neutral terms than that.

You're the future. Fuck living on ramen and mac and cheese. Take risks and enjoy the rewards.

The motto of every pirate ever.

Business suits are VERY expensive. Walk the streets until you see a guy your size, knock him unconscious, and steal his suit

This brings up a good topic: clothing.  Buy clothes that are modest and respectable.  Don't worry about "fashionable", because it changes rapidly. Look for things that will last a while, that can be handed down to sibling to sibling, and that will work in a variety of scenarios.

The word  "Capitalism"  should be sacred,  never to be used to connote anything negative. Think of it as Regan's 12th Commandment.

"Crony Socialism"  should be the preferred usage. Having the government pick winners and losers is not capitalism.   Capitalism,  when left alone, is   the rising tide that lifts all the ships.

 Wealth creation is good. Having money is good. Having a robust economy is good. Living within your  means is good.   If anyone in the GOP ever figures out this simple  fact of American life and will promote it, then we'll start winning.

The word "Capitalism" should be sacred, never to be used to connote anything negative.

Wasn't the word originally coined by Marx?

257  To believe there is such a thing as 'Crony capitalism' is to believe there is a thing called 'Healthy Cancer.'

Heh. Good one.

And absolutely right.

Cronyism is the exact opposite of free-market capitalism, which is based on merit and not cronyism.

Josh Groban: ‘CPAC stands for Conservative Politicians Attempting Comedy right?’

Josh .....there's something in your eye.

Buy late model used cars, not new.

That used to be my sentiment, too, but I found a few monkey wrenches in that tact, depending on the model and brand you want.  We're in the market.  My car is 20 years old and runs like a top.  However, if my $$ is going to be worth nothing soon, you can bet I'm getting a better car. 

We keep our cars forever.  We're pretty sure it's going to the 2013 Honda Accord Sport, base trim.  For what we're getting that car for, it's the price you'd pay for something a year or two old, without the worry of how it has been abused.  My 16 year-old will be driving the '92 'vo.

On a recent trip to a Hyundai dealership (end of last month), the sales guy told me to knock off $5K from every sticker on the lot and we'd go from there!  I think they're getting scared.  Car sales have already plunged in Europe, and it's heading this way:  http://bit.ly/WHkfUY

Posted by: kbdabear at March 16, 2013 02:46 PM

We're booking him for a short stint.

Posted by: Carney Cruise Lines at March 16, 2013 02:53 PM (bGlsD)

Fancy shmansy

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 16, 2013 02:53 PM (HDgX3)

The point is that it's not really about the math.  It is about advancing a low-debt political agenda by living a low-debt personal life.

268...People get what it means. You don't to focus so much on the purity of the term capitalist.

No. They don't get what it means.

People hear the term "crony capitalism" and think...."Capitalism = Bad".

The term suggests that cronyism is the result of capitalism.

You'd have to be a fool to NOT borrow money.

You gambling that you are going to have an income in the future with which to pay it off. That is not a given, as I can personally attest.

Posted by: chemjeff at March 16, 2013 02:50 PM (BBWjt)

It just depends on what you belive in. 

I believe in risk and reward.  Being ready to put everything on the line with only yourself to depend on. 

Most people should live and work exactly how the bulk of the comments here recommend, because most people's tolerance for stress and risk is reasonably low.  However, conservatives are where the engine of our economy come from. 

There are a lot of winners out there, if only they would believe in themselves.

Wasn't the word originally coined by Marx?

I  doubt  many people know that. I see nothing wrong with using the term in a positive way,  particularly since the Leftards have twisted the language and meaning of words so  much  that they bear little resemblance to the  ideas they're supposed to convey.

Posted by: chemjeff at March 16, 2013 02:55 PM (BBWjt)

_______

The term suggests that cronyism is the result of capitalism.

Or more to the point, that capitalism is crony captialism.

"Loans are at 0% "

I won't cum in your mouth.

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 16, 2013 02:57 PM (P7nGQ)

_________

Fair enough. However if it ever got to the point where I didn't have an income to pay it off, I'd just walk away from the debt.

Posted by: chemjeff at March 16, 2013 02:00 PM (BBWjt)

Nothing wrong with doing your vacation on your credit card; it's convenient, and it's safe. Carrying cash is risky, although I always like to have a certain amount in my pocket. Traveler's checks are getting to be a real PITA to cash, and I have not used them for years. Debit cards now work in many foreign ATMs, and that is handy. But the one big caveat to using credit cards for vacation? Have enough money in a savings or checking account that you can pay off that vacation credit card bill in full, when the chickens come home to roost.

I'm outta here too. Gotta get  ready for a  gig   tonight.

Y'all have fun and try not to trash the place.  'k?

And put that  CPAC   award down, NOW!

299 -

Please do.  I think I disagree with you on the question of whether this is about math or conservative principles, because... well, I think the math IS the conservative principle.

If I'm carrying debt, and it makes  financial sense to not pay it off (first, I mean), then that's the right thing to do.  I'm really not going to concern myself with whether I'm serving as an example to Washington or anyone else. 

Posted by: Ombudsman at March 16, 2013 02:57 PM (HqXYa)

__________

Careful with that. Some 401k plans have pretty crappy investment options with outrageously high fees. You're better off in many cases to open up your own IRA and buy index funds that have virtually no fees as opposed to buying funds with 2, 3, 4, even 5% fees. Over time nobody beats the market anyway.

310 -

I thought it was like the Stanley Cup.  We all get to take turns  hoisting it, and  carrying it around on the ice. 

Posted by: eman at March 16, 2013 03:01 PM (64rcm)

nun = an ideal?    You must have never gone to Catholic school.  I still have the physical and emotional scars.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at March 16, 2013 02:58 PM (jucos)

You don't know how much I appreciate that.  Buying a car is scary.  Like Forrest says, "You never know what you're gonna get."  We were on the fence until seeing the new Consumer Report giving it the top slot.

I thought it was like the Stanley Cup. We all get to take turns hoisting it, and carrying it around on the ice.

Do not put any Valu-Rite in it. It's melt the finish right off.

Plus, those little bubbles smell kinda funny...like a chemical reaction.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, assault Hobbit at March 16, 2013 03:04 PM (wbeNt)

__________

>>Forget it, Jake. It's Casablanca.

LOL. I was really confused for a minute there...

Fair enough. However if it ever got to the point where I didn't have an income to pay it off, I'd just walk away from the debt.

Kind of hard on the lender, if it came to that.

I am kind of curious - would you think kindly of one of those occupy folks that took out $80,000 in school loans and then just repudiated the debt when it became obvious that their degree wasn't going to bring them enough income to pay it off (assuming that they could legally do so with student loans)? Would you absolve them from the responsiblity of paying debts they willingly took on, on the grounds that the school overcharged them for a useless degree?

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, assault Hobbit at March 16, 2013 03:04 PM (wbeNt)

Theft?

When a bank lends you money, they charge not only enough to cover their overhead and make a profit, but an extra amount to cover loans that go bad.

Unless someone goes into a loan with the intention of walking away, they are not thieves.  Our economy is built on people taking risks and either winning or losing.  If they lose, it's in the country's best interest that they can declare bankruptcy and start again.

296 The term suggests that cronyism is the result of capitalism.

 

Or more to the point, that capitalism is crony capitalism.

----------

Yep.

Applying a negative descriptor to 'capitalism' makes the term capitalism into something that is...not good.

Cronyism is corruption, pure and simple.

It occurs in all societies.

It has been around forever.

It flourishes more under socialism and communism, as a way to reward those who support the ones in power.

322 -

True, but there are tons of filthy stinking rich people who consider themselves good Republicans who have been doing just that for eons.

See: IMF. 

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 16, 2013 03:09 PM (P7nGQ)

___________

Do I like these people? No. But the reality is you can walk away from debt pretty easily with few consequences. And if I am ever in a position where I can take advantage of that, I will do it.

Shorter answer: hate the game, not the player

The only thing I care about is how I am affected. Naked capitalism.

Gee, I wonder so many people think that "capitalism" is just a synonym for exploitation. A mystery for the ages.

307....I see it differently. Putting crony and capitalism together points the mind at corruption of an ideal.

 

Like pregnant nun.

But being a nun is not what caused the nun to become pregnant.

Whereas, the term 'crony capitalism' implies that if it weren't for capitalism, cronyism would not be happening.

Credit card rewards points, unfortunately, tend  to  increase  my  spending.

So, I  remind  myself that  rewards save me 1% or 2%, but not buying  saves  me  100%.

334 -

Of course.  The sad part is though, we get painted with the scumbag brush (sorry for the mixed metaphor), in spite of the fact that this type thing is practiced by both sides of the political spectrum. 

Posted by: Ombudsman at March 16, 2013 02:38 PM (HqXYa)

It can be false economy to use regular gas in a vehicle designed to use premium. Sure, the computer will retard the spark, and it won't knock, but it has also lost power by so doing, so you drive with your foot a bit deeper in the throttle to get the performance you desire. End result: more gas burned.

It's really going to depend upon the vehicle, and your driving style. Try a couple of tanks of each grade, and keep careful records of mileage, to learn what works for you and your car.

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 16, 2013 03:09 PM (P7nGQ)

Think about how much money would have been saved if more of those Occupy kids would have walked away from their $80,000 loans for worthless degrees.

At some point, the banks would start looking at these loans and come to the conclusion that it's a bad business practice to lend $80,000 for a degree in something that only pays $30,000 a year. 

Once that happened, colleges would readjust their faculty and courses to provide degrees for $30,000 for those positions, so that the banks would start lending again.

Shielding banks from losses isn't a conservative value. 

349 Whatever   the bank  loses  on  a  "walk away"  loan  raises the costs on the other borrowers.   Just   like  theft  in  stores  raises  the  costs  to  every  customer   who  actually  buys a product.

352...No. The term implies government is corrupting capitalism.

 

Using crony capitalism gives you an opportunity to point that out to FSA dumbasses.

Well...if you really want to fuck with them, then use the term "crony socialism".

They like socialism.

If you're going to demonize something, demonize something that they like.

Posted by: Die Trying at March 16, 2013 03:16 PM (w7J/R)

So does the Amazon unlimited shipping for $79 a year.  I bought so much unneeded stuff with that.

@ 349  Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette, assault Hobbit at March 16, 2013 03:17 PM (wbeNt)

You're correct (to a point) that the money the bank loses on bad debts comes from depositors, but they've never lost a dime.  Plus, each and every bad loan increases the percentage in interest that banks need to pay on investments and deposits.

That's capitalism.

Only criminals take out loans they don't have every intention of paying back.  Sometimes it doesn't work out the way you would hope, so the institution that makes it their business to lend money and take the risk that a portion of their loans won't be paid back takes the loss.

That's capitalism too.

364...speaking of which, anyone know the origins of all that chapter 11 crap?

Debtors prison.

I think that the concept of 'bankruptcy law' was to avoid putting people in prison for failure to pay their debts.

This site often has super-frugal ideas for getting away from commercial products that you can make way cheaper on your own.  Here's a good one:

http://bit.ly/15SS9X6

Some of the others are a tad "girly," but overall, it's not preachy or too eco-tard  (even though the blogger is a native Californian).

Another little thing I do that saves $$ and aggravation in the long run is save those heavy plastic bags that your cereal comes in.  They're handy for marinating meat (and pitch out without a second thought) or using as an extra wrap layer for stuff bound for the freezer.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet is no longer shamelessly hawking his book Amy Lynn available on amazon. at March 16, 2013 03:31 PM (l86i3)

The Millionaire Next Door was a great book.

Shielding banks from losses isn't a conservative value.

No, it isn't. However, neither is borrowing a bunch of money in the smug belief that, due to inflation, you will not be paying its true worth back, and then just refusing to pay if it turns out that you are wrong and the bank was right.

Posted by: wheatie at March 16, 2013 03:15 PM (rwujx)

Naw, "crony capitalism" is corrupted capitalism, and when the term comes up in conversation, use that as a teaching opportunity, instead of whining about the term itself.

(off damn sock)

Posted by: weft cut-loop at March 16, 2013 03:30 PM (UCv7P

I've never walked away from a dime in debt.  However, I'm fully prepared to do so if circumstances dictated that was the right way to go.

The reason I'm prepared to do that is that I understand the business that banks are in.  I understand their business model, how and to who they lend money, what they will do in extradinary circumstances  and what they won't do. 

People who will destroy their lives and families in order to keep a contract with a bank don't have their priorities right.

Top 10 Things to Say to an Obama Voter Who Has Been Laid Off.

http://bit.ly/XQNrHw

Posted by: weft cut-loop at March 16, 2013 03:01 PM (UCv7P)

I will do something rarely done online and concede the argument, or, to be properly august, "revise and extend my remarks" in response to my good friend, the Honorable Moron from...well, from wherever the fuck you are from.

Very well, sir, you have bested me in this engagement.

382...Naw, "crony capitalism" is corrupted capitalism, and when the term comes up in conversation, use that as a teaching opportunity, instead of whining about the term itself.

Then...why not call it that? ...'Corrupted capitalism'.

The term 'crony capitalism' is a whiney term, in itself.

It was coined by whiney leftists, who were trying to portray capitalism as something that is bad.

So if I am 'whining' about a whiney term, then so be it.

Posted by: wheatie at March 16, 2013 03:44 PM (rwujx)

It's good, it's similar to sandwich/shitsandwich.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at March 16, 2013 03:46 PM (Q9qpj)

Moo Moo and I may be dicks, but we're not pussies or assholes. 

In the end, we'll be the ones doing the fucking, not the ones being fucked. 

391 Sarah Palin used the term "crony capatilism" during her Sept. 3, 2011 speech at Indianola, Iowa. Below is a YouTube excerpt from that speech:

 

Posted by: wheatie at March 16, 2013 03:51 PM (rwujx)

It's popular term used by libertarians.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at March 16, 2013 03:46 PM (Q9qpj)

________________

Ok dude, you go ahead and lead your life in order to help out everyone else. I'll do it to help myself. Let's compare where we are in 10 years.

403 "Your Honor, when I entered the jewelry store I did not have any intent of stealing. But, you know, Shiny!"

"I was just stealing it...to show how easily it could be stolen."

In the end, we'll be the ones doing the fucking, not the ones being fucked.

Unless the rest of us get the government to screw you for us. As  I said above, "hate the game, not the player" could be the motto of every looter everywhere.

"we'll be the ones doing the fucking,"

Sure you will. You'll still be a piece of shit thief if you walk from debt you could pay for if you do so.

Posted by: jwest at March 16, 2013 03:50 PM (u2a4R)

_________

Amen to that.

There's a saying in poker that if you look around the table and can't figure out who the sucker is, you're the sucker.

A lot of suckers on this thread.

406...It's popular term used by libertarians.

Since when?

Not saying you're wrong...since some who profess to be 'libertarian' are actually rather misguided on a lot of things.

I just haven't heard people like Stossel or Greg Gutfeld use that term.

I have heard them rail about cronyism being...corruption.

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 16, 2013 03:56 PM (P7nGQ)

_________

You don't get it. The system is set up to allow people to take advantage of others. If you don't take advantage of what the system allows you to do, you're hurting yourself. Be my guest and be a martyr.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 16, 2013 03:59 PM (HDgX3)

Said by every chump ever who later walked away from the table wearing naught but his briefs and his shoes.

Posted by: @PurpAv at March 16, 2013 04:03 PM (MIhYM)

___________

LOL! What have I done again to make you so upset? Oh yeah I said taking out debt at 0% is a good idea and if the SHTF I'd walk away from the debt.

Get over yourself.

You don't get it. The system is set up to allow people to take advantage of others. If you don't take advantage of what the system allows you to do, you're hurting yourself. Be my guest and be a martyr.

In other words, there is no such thing as objective right and wrong - it is a matter of what you can get away with. Right?

414 -

Internet money men... about as believable as internet tough guys.  If you had DD cups, and legs that went all the way up to here, I'd marry you, moo moo. 

But you don't.

Troll. 

Posted by: @PurpAv at March 16, 2013 04:03 PM (MIhYM)

Amen.  There's a difference between being shrewd and being  dishonest, in business and in life.

412 An example of modern day "crony capitalism":

 

Senior Dem House staffers and health-care/Big Pharma lobbyists beavering away on the final draft of ObamaCare. When they finally finish, they hand the still-warm-from-laser-printer copy to Nancy Pelosi, who promptly declares that "we have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it."

----------

Please explain how this is an example of capitalism, in any way.

It's crony corruption...and fascism.

But I do not see any semblance of capitalism in this example.

Posted by: Grey Fox at March 16, 2013 04:07 PM (P7nGQ)

__________________

439 -

That's what Senator Craig said. 

>>Taking out a loan and walking away....perfectly acceptable since the system is set up for this to happen.

I hope you die alone as a ward of the State you dishonorable piece of shit.

447 -

Remember the rule: All trolls are Average Joe, and Average Joe sucks c*cks by choice.

Moo moo = troll. 

Posted by: @PurpAv at March 16, 2013 04:14 PM (MIhYM)

____________

What have I done again? I said

a) debt is fine at 0%

b) if there is a situation where you can't pay the money back, walk away

Perspective, child.

441 This thread is the perfect example of why Romney lost. Do the right thing. Stay ethical. Play nice. Play by the rules.

 

And the end result? You lose.

--------

Erm...having your campaign manager in Virgina, change the primary rules to keep other candidates off the ballot.

That wasn't very nice.

Or very 'ethical', really.

Posted by: Jenny hates her phone at March 16, 2013 04:16 PM (sjmF0)

______

You are quite obtuse if you think my point was those two are conservatives. My point was you don't get ahead in the world by being a pussy. You know who is moral and ethical? The middle manager. You know who is a total fucking prick? His boss.

Posted by: @PurpAv at March 16, 2013 04:09 PM (MIhYM)

I don't think that helps, Purp. Moo Moo is apparently one of those people that really doesn't have much in the way of ethics - he gets upset when people act in a way that hurts him ("hurts" being defined as thwarting him in his quest to acquire material goods). Borrowing money from someone who would kill him for failure to repay is just poor tactics on his part - far better to get the money from somewhere else.

Hey, BBQers,

I have decided to join the hordes of searers of flesh.

Question: Gas or Charcoal. Which one makes meat taste better? Or is there a difference?

Posted by: @PurpAv at March 16, 2013 04:16 PM (MIhYM)

__________

When 99.9999% does it and you're the one that doesn't do it, what happens?

What you do personally has no influence on the macro effects. What you are advocating is purposely allowing yourself to get harmed while everyone else gets a benefit.

And Mr. Cow also believes in gay marriage and the assault weapon's ban.

Why argue with someone whose conservatism consists solely of not wanting to pay taxes?

459 -

Somebody said it better than I, but I do believe it is a bedrock "conservative" principle that capitalism without morality is evil. 

Which I believe was essentially Chemjeff's point.  Use the system, but use it with principles.  We're seeing what the troll thinks, in all his glory here.  That jwest is running the same line of thought is not a shock either. 

Question: Gas or Charcoal. Which one makes meat taste better? Or is there a difference?

Fire comes from chunks of wood.

Posted by: Ook? at March 16, 2013 04:21 PM (OQpzc)

___________

Explain to me how gay marriage hurts you again? Oh that's right. It's immoral and unethical, like walking away from a loan.

Okay, charcoal.

So one of those converted 50 gallon barrels would be better than a gas grill from craig's list. I've seen a couple of fancy gas grills for under a hundred, and the brand new charcoal for $99.

No. There are absolute wrongs. Killing someone for no reason other than you want to kill...wrong. Taking out a loan and walking away....perfectly acceptable since the system is set up for this to happen.

So if the system was set up so that we could kill people just for the heck of it (as samurai were allowed to kill commoners for no reason whatsoever during the Tokugawa Shogunate), would that make it OK?

I am not saying that walking away from a loan is necessarily always unacceptable, nor is anyone else, as far as I can tell. It is the underlying attitude that might is right - which is what you are actually arguing - that has everyone up in arms.

Posted by: chemjeff at March 16, 2013 04:22 PM (BBWjt)

Yeah, apparently SBRs make his wife nervous, or something. He's always contra the Horde.

>>but does not make foodstuffs taste better

This is a false assertion.  It really depends on the method and the charcoal. 

Stay away from match light and any other fuel infused briquettes, too. 

483 -

I believe he's trying. 

>>Isn't the charcoal also more carcinogenic?

Yet another benefit!  SMOD / Cancer 2016

486...Isn't gold supposed to be the safest thing?

Not at today's prices.

It could go down at any time.

Posted by: Sphynx at March 16, 2013 04:25 PM (cll/q)

That is too conservative for me. That nose ring girl will give it up for $150/hr. That, my friend, is the free market.

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 16, 2013 04:22 PM (HDgX3)

That's all i can stands, i can stands no more.
Accounts receivables in our business is 60% because of FUCKERS LIKE YOU that think we owe them our service for free or at a discounted rate. But you have money for booze, dope, tattoos, and a list of garbage items that are worthless. I saw the handwriting on the wall years ago after we launched our business and witnessed firsthand how nearly HALF of our countrymen have turned into thieving bastards whose words are worthless. Personal integrity is dead. We cannot turn our country around as long as people expect shit for free.

Thanks, asshole.

>>Isn't the charcoal also more carcinogenic?

The beer couteracts this.

Posted by: Cicero Kid at March 16, 2013 04:32 PM (UrENZ)

______________

YOUR business failure is my fault?

Precious.

Am I also responsible for your receding hairline and beer gut?

470 Whoever wrote this post has obviously never owned a business.

Heh.

*cough* ...Young college professor...*cough*

But I have great hopes for our beloved chemjeff, as he seems eager to learn...for the most part.

Experience, however...is still the greatest teacher.

YOUR business failure is my fault?

Yes, dickbreath. You walked out on your debt, but kept the shit you bought?

Posted by: Mr. Moo Moo at March 16, 2013 04:28 PM (HDgX3)

And the House of Representatives, and 30 governors, and some new Turks like Cruz. Sell out all you want. I'll fight to the end.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 16, 2013 04:32 PM (GEICT)

______________

511Charcoal or gas?

Why not both? 

Posted by: Peaches at March 16, 2013 04:48 PM (AJM+z)

I don't know but they have tons of shelving units in their houses loaded!

They're buying like 77 containers of mustard, 50 boxes of cat food (that she donated to a shelter), 50 packages of lunch meat, etc.

1. Reduce debt. I grew up damn poor, from an early age I saw what credit was for, buying what you had to have not what you wanted. When my company wanted me to travel I told them I needed a credit card to be able to rent a car. They looked at me like I had a third eye when I told them I had no credit card. When I got divorced, wife's lawyer insinuated I was lying when I said I had no credit card records to turn over. Today, I use a card frequently: "Credit or debit sir?"  Debit, I got money I ain't spent yet.

2. Household budget. See number one. Not hard at all when your primary objective is to have money left over at the end of the month NOT what new toys you can show off. Buy day old, shop for bargains, processed foods are expensive and bad for you, coupons are great for items you need but are designed to lure you into buying something you don't need. Ever wonder why there are no coupons offered for fresh meat, fresh veggies, find a market that offers marked down items that no longer pass the "fresh test". Trust me, that "sell by" date is just a suggestion.

3. Plan, my plan was to retire at 55 and become a gentleman farmer, my company upped that offer to 53, after a long night with quad sheets and a calculator, the same one I bought in the 70's. I determined, after living on next to nothing for years because I was either paying child support or paying college tuition, I could make it. 401K been berry, berry good to me.

Word of caution, watch your 401K investments like a hawk and be prepared to dump them and put your money into a guaranteed fund, yes, you don't get the return, you don't lose thousands overnight either.

Ride the wave, kick the board around BEFORE you grind ashore.