1 Foist???

2 Comments disappearing?

3 Now back.

4 Great piece by Fund. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358550/congresss-exemption-obamacare-john-fund I have no trust in any of them.

5 Lonely in here.

6 "There are a number of problems with this approach. Other than the obvious — that it would never work"

Yeah.. no shit, Sherlock.  As I have been saying.

Add to that, there are many part s of Obamacare that are regulatory in nature only and require little to no funding..  It is up to Insurance companies and states to implement at their own cost.  It is a FUBAR idea from the start.

And, last.  The cockamamie idea that the Dems would ever get blamed for a gov't shutdown, with a libtard press calling the shots, is not only naive, it is stupid.

7 Let's all sing after me


not the hill to die on, not the hill to die on


lets go to the press and cry long


then when they curse us and kick us lets all sing


not the hill to die not the hill to die on

8 I can't believe you wingnuts don't want to realize a 3000% savings on your Insurance Premiums?

9

Avik Roy, writing at National Review, explains:

 

Seven words that ensure what follows will be status-quo-preserving bullshit.

 

The original strategy of the shutdown shock-jocks

 

The government should be shut down.  It should be cut to the bare bone, if we want to still insist we are a loberty-loving people.  If an ostensible "conservative" has to descend to calling that shock-jockery, then as far as 'm concerned, he can go tut-tut with David Brooks about those ill-mannered, ill-clothed Canadian-by-way-of-Texas miscreants in the House.

10 a) we lose
b) we lose
what was c again?

11 As long as there's money to be made by attacking Republicans, "conservative" groups will do so.  Bonus points if they talk about defending Michele Bachmann or Allen West, who's been out of Congress since January.  It's like the sun rising in the east.

It also helps that TrueCons eat that stuff up like candy.

12

Gabe seems to be missing the point of conservatives who want to force a shutdown.  The "win-win" solution being pushed by the establishment (read, professional pundit class and Republican leadership) is almost always boils down to the same thing: cave.  This isn't the hill to die on, nothing to see here.

 

If the so-called opposition party doesn't oppose anything then why the hell are they even there?

13

No Balls At All!!

 

14 "But, then again, I have always been a bit more cynical about government." -- Indeed, which is why Gabe has been insisting that our elected officials be held accountable in town hall meetings, right?

15 There's more sneer coming off of this post than at a Prius owners' convention.

16 Gabe, your posts come in for a fair amount of pushback 'round here -- often deserved -- but I have to say that I totes agree with you about the House plan being real politics, and the way to go, and the Cruz et al plan being noble loser stuff. 

Wish the caucus could get its head straight and its heart right at the same time.  Passionate intensity PLUS patient, thought-out strategy and tactics.  Stay frosty.

BTW I have tremendous respect for Cruz and Lee.  They are probably my favorite Senators.

17 >>> I can't believe you wingnuts don't want to realize a 3000% savings on your Insurance Premiums? If they had the tenacity to stick to this, they could win. The Affordable Healthcare Act was supposed to be a money saver. It shouldn't need ANY funding.

18 The only way this health insurance/health care mess get's cleaned up is when 51% of the voters have personal experience with just how bad government run enterprise really is.

So I say, let the voters experience it to the maximum.

19 shutdown shock-jocks So shut-up proles, your betters in DC know what's best

20 Oh, hell. Not this shit.

Not this "eat a shit sandwich now and we promise to give you a meatball sub later. But more likely just another shit sandwich."

Followed by rounds of insiders and elitist lackeys shouting: "Eat your shit sandwich!" and "The only reason you have to eat a shit sandwich now is because you wouldn't eat all of the shit sandwich we gave you last time!"

No thank you: I do not want a shit sandwich. I will not eat a shit sandwich. You are welcome to your own shit sandwich. No, I do not believe your shit sandwich taste great.

21 An awful lot of words to justify why we should just knuckle under. Because, hey, the Establishment GOP knows best, right? If it's worth trying to delay it, it's worth trying to defund it.

22

Gabe,

 

Credit to you for laying out your position, but it still has huge flaws that need to be addressed.

To wit:

Once we delay the individual mandate, how do we get our 60+ senate votes and the presidency? Hopes? Dreams?  Perhaps, running against Obamacare some more?

What about the already detrimental regulatory effects?  I personally know a few people who would love the individual mandate repealed/delayed (either) because it opens back up the chance to become a "free rider."  (In the sense that they won't carry insurance until something bad happens, then sign up and profit.)

Finally, DO NOT underestimate the power of bread and circuses.  Specifically the bread part.  No one ever wants their particular Ox gored.  EVER.  So if those subsidies go into effect, this bill will never be repealed.  That's not a principled stand, it's an factual one.

Consider an analogy: Mortgage interest deductions. (Since I own a home now I can talk about this).  They need to go, they're stupid, they stimulate the economy in all the wrong places, etc.

And Americans overwhelmingly favor an overhaul of the tax code.

But we'll never get it, because doing so would require goring that particular ox, which many don't want gored, because "Bread!"

Bambycare subsidies are the same way, even if people HATE THE FUCKING LAW, once the sugar starts flowing we'll hear "repeal it! (but keep the subsidies please)."

23 "As I have discussed several times, this is untrue. Delay the individual mandate and you delay the insurance subsidies . . . perhaps long enough to get the sixty Senate votes, plus a presidential signature to repeal Obamacare."

Gabe, this is completely wrong.  The individual mandate has nothing to do with subsidies.  The subsidies are tax law. You make xx dollars per year, and you get xx dollars credit.  You would have to repeal the law, not defund it.  We simply go into the hole deeper and deeper for all those tax credits that are no longer revenue.

24 How about no continuing resolutions.  Pass a budget in the house, the dems can either take it or leave it.
Either be an apposition party or we can just all vote dem.

25 So why do conservatives require a desperate and futile action?


We could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives.

26 Ah, the BOHICA strategy.  It's diabolically brilliant.

27 "which has already achieved a remarkable amount of spending control and deficit reduction."
==

Oh that, that is a thing of beauty: I dare--I fucking dare--anyone on the left to write something so full of lies, so obviously stupid and willfully obtuse to the truth.

Not a single self-identified conservative would allow it.

But, it's supposed to be one of "our guys" and we're supposed to swallow this Moses coming from the mount bullshit?

Anyway, file this under "Why National Review ought to be burned to the ground and the ashes dumped at sea." It's not conservative--it's naval gazing for people who like the "idea" of being conservative but like the practice of sneering at actual conservative ideas in action even better.

28

As Stephen Moore noted in the Wall Street Journal last month, the sequester is “the first time federal expenditures have fallen for two consecutive years since the end of the Korean War.”

 

He left out the part about deficits  going through the roof after the 111th  Pelosi and Reid-led    Congress to the highest levels   in history.

 

How very convenient...

29 Does anyone here trust the establishment Pubies at all? Have they given us anything, anything at all, that gives us pause to believe in them?

30

I've never heard of Avik Roy, but  this is what he wrote:

 

And this is where the pro-shutdown forces go terribly wrong. The idea that we had a free-market health-care system before Obamacare, and a socialized one after, is completely and utterly incorrect. In 2010, before the passage of Obamacare, U.S.-government entities spent more per capita on health care than all but three other countries in the world. Obamacare adds to that spending by around 10 to 15 percent. Not good, to be sure, but not the whole kit and caboodle either.

 

 

Even if Obamacare canÂ’t be reversed, it does not spell the doom of conservatism, any more than the passage of the Great Society in 1965 spelled the doom of conservatism, any more than the passage of the New Deal in the 1930s spelled the doom of conservatism, any more than the creation of the Internal Revenue Service and the Federal Reserve in 1913 spelled the doom of conservatism.

 

Someone  please  explain  why I should give  a fuck  about  his conclusions.  I'm having a difficult  time with it.

 

31 I disagree with Gabe's general thrust here, but got derailed completely with this throwaway: perhaps long enough to get the sixty Senate votes, plus a presidential signature to repeal Obamacare. I thought it was basically agreed that if it was passed w/ 51 votes, it could be repealed w/ 51 votes. What's this bullshit 60 vote cave?

32 I love Cruz and what he's symbolically trying to do. But I've been concerned from the beginning about this plan for one simple reason. Since the MFM will NEVER allow the Dems to be blamed for a shutdown, there is no motivation for the Dems to blink first on a shutdown threat. If this had any chance of actually defunding, I'd be for it, but I just dont think it does.

33 How about no continuing resolutions. Pass a budget in the house, the dems can either take it or leave it.
Either be an apposition party or we can just all vote dem.
Posted by: Big Ben
...........
Yep.. I think this is the way to go.  Of course, Harry Reid shit cans it the minute he gets it, but the point is made.

34 See, I want the government shutdown in and of itself and watch the lib's heads explode. After all the scandals and abuse I think alot of Americans want to shut the government down because they think it will reign it in when all other measures have failed. Perhaps they think that like a PC, a shutdown will force a reset. Of course the government will continue right where it left off, but I think the Shutdown-reset paradigm is now part of the American consciousness. Congressional leaders have so successfully obfuscated how Congress works, that when they actually start to do something intelligent, no one recognizes it because no one has a clue as to how things actually work. They're really going to have to work with grassroot/blogger level folks to improve communications.

35 We need to keep our powder dry until the democrats don't control the media and have the political advantage. Seriously though. It's time that we just aknowlwdge that ObamaCare is permanent (until it's even bigger statist replacement). The statists have won.

36 One issue Gabe doesn't touch is the complete lack of faith anyone has in the Republicans ever repealing Obamacare even if they did, somehow, win majorities in the House and Senate, and the Presidency.

There was a Republican trifecta from 2003-2007. What Big Government Entitlements got repealed in that period? (Didn't they actually add another one: Prescription Drugs?)

37 If you guys would just go along with the marxist inspired control of basically every aspect of our lives, you'll see that our esteemed Republican leaders have a plan. Have they ever steered you wrong?

38 @30. He's 'tarded.

39 Credit to you for laying out your position, but it still has huge flaws that need to be addressed.
To wit:
Once we delay the individual mandate, how do we get our 60+ senate votes and the presidency? Hopes? Dreams?

Elections.

The minority party doesn't get to have its way.  Wishing it were otherwise doesn't make it so.

40 31: This isn't entirely accurate, it was passed with 60. The Senate version. They couldnt get the house version through after Scott Brown was elected. This is one of many reasons the bill is so awful, they had to cobble together the throwaway Senate Bill with "fixes" that they did pass by 51. But the main bill itself was the Senate version passed in December 09 with 60 Votes.

41 Why would the Senate have to vote on the ammended CR after voting on the other one? Reid will just ignore like all of the defund resolutions.

42 So yeah, all that's needed is a 2/3 vote majority and a Republican president, and golly, we'll get right on that repeal, folks! Never mind the arguments inre the PR war still hold true, and in fact will be worse. Think Senator Sister Graham is going to vote for a repeal when the MSM is set to call his vote one that will take away health insurance from poor people? Yeah, pull the other one. Fuck this Establishment GOP shit. I'm going back to the Navy Yard thread...at least there you know who your enemies are, not this backstabbing "shut up and color" bullshit conservatives keep getting from the self-appointed betters in the GOP.

43 @30. He's 'tarded.

 

 

Posted by: Lincolntf at September 16, 2013 11:47 AM (ZshNr)

 

-------------------

 

I'm getting an  awfully   "rapey"  vibe  from  the photo under his byline, too.

44 Someone please explain why I should give a fuck about his conclusions. I'm having a difficult time with it.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 11:45 AM (CJjw5)

 

There's a reasonable argument that he's even wrong about the New Deal and Great Society.

They, in fact, spelled Doom for conservatism, we're just still living it out.

45 There was a Republican trifecta from 2003-2007. What Big Government Entitlements got repealed in that period? (Didn't they actually add another one: Prescription Drugs?)

Yeah, they fucked it up, and got their asses handed to them in the 2006 midterms for it.  Don't think they've forgotten.  The bitchslap still stings.

46 Under CantorÂ’s approach, the House would simultaneously fund the government, including Obamacare, at sequester levels while also passing a separate resolution that would amend the CR to defund Obamacare. By using this mechanism, the House would force the Senate to vote on the defunding resolution, while preserving the sequester-driven spending caps, and also ensuring that any government shutdown would be the fault of Democrats in the Senate.
=========
And the Senate takes up the CR that funds Obamacare, passes it.

And the Senate Dems who need symbolic votes against it, get their pass. And the Press makes sure everyone knows the CR funding Obamacare "had broad bipartisan--Democrat and Republican--support."

While Reid makes sure the amending/defunding CR bill never sees the light of day.

Yeah, I don't know why I'm so stupid I can't see why this is such a brilliant strategy.

Gee, I R Being Dumb.

47 The Repub leadership and this post, keep whining that we don't have the votes, we don't have the votes. It's the same 'ol losers' game. It goes like this: "It's too HARD!" "We can't do it" "The media will malign us" Remind me never to get in a foxhole with this guy.

48 Getting 60 Senate votes? With putting that retard Cornyn in charge of efforts the Repubs will never have a simple majority and even if they did it would have enough RINOs to never make this shit go away.

49

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 16, 2013 11:49 AM (SY2Kh)

 

Uhh.. Right, I was asking about HOW we win those elections.

Somehow I don't think "We just passed on getting rid of this bill you didn't like" is going to play well with voters.

Granted it will play BETTER than "we support this bill you didn't like"

but not great (or even good for that matter.)

50 BSR: Thanks for the refresher. So absent 60 Rs in the senate, there's absolutely no reason to believe Obamacare will ever be repealed. And the only way we get 60 Rs in the senate is if we break Texas into 10 smaller states. IOW: Boned. Also: L.I.B.

51 No mention of the Vitter attempts to get ObamaCare dealt with, from the John Fund article in the sidebar? Sen. Vitter (R-LA) is attempting to get the Office of Personnel Management's interpretation of the Grassley amendment to Obamacare overruled. As written, the amendment was to force Congress and its personal staffs, not committee staffs, to participate in the Obamacare exchanges without the generous subsidies currently enjoyed by those staff members. A bipartisan group managed to get Obama to pressure the OPM to interpreting that as "must participate in Obamacare exchange but will still get the five-figure subsidies they currently enjoy". The idea is that Congress being subjected to this shit sandwich will convince them of the need to change it. Vitter's attempts are being countered by the Dems with at least two bills mentioned which are particularly vindictive. The first bill would permanently pull the subsidies from anyone who votes for the Vitter bill. The second would pull subsidies from any individual found to have solicited a prostitute, which is a shot across the bow at Vitter's past scandals.

52 Yeah the fatal flaw with Cantor's plan, is I see no way Reid actually lets it get voted on, and I'm not sure Cantor can force him. If I'm wrong on that, please tell me why. But from what I've seen Reid is the master of ignoring potentially controversial votes to protect his caucus. I'm more and more pessimistic that November 2012 was really the last chance to get rid of O-Care. Thanks John Roberts!

53 8 dead, per ABC local.

54 I haven't read most of Gabe's post yet, so I can't speak to the merits of the arguments put forth. But I bet a huge reason people don't want to go along with the plan Gabe and others are proposing is that they just don't trust the GOP leadership. The leadership have shown themselves to be cowardly, caving and hiding rather than standing for principle and fighting. If they had a better track record, I suspect more people would be more open to their plan. As it is, it just looks like another excuse to kick the can down the road and avoid doing anything that will even slightly rock the boat. Just my 2c.

55 Don't think they've forgotten. The bitchslap still stings. I don’t think they’ve forgotten either. I don’t think they ever got it. “If we just give out more free stuff, the press will love us and we’ll undercut the Democrats.” But even as early as SCHIP II, Democrats simply offer even more of an increase than Republicans do, and the press calls the Republican increase “slashing services” simply because it’s a smaller increase.

56 53 8 dead, per ABC local. Posted by: Lincolntf at September 16, 2013 11:56 AM (ZshNr) Perp(s) in that count?

57 But from what I've seen Reid is the master of ignoring potentially controversial votes to protect his caucus.

Yup.  Reid is questionable around your children, but he plays the game better than anyone on the GOP side.

58 Alright you guys, here's the plan: Let's just let this Obamacare thing slide and not shut down the government. We will be viewed as heroes. Next, we get a president and 60+ senators with an 'R' next to their name. I know that sounds like a tall order, but we can do it if we run moderates like McCain or Romney. These are guys EVERYBODY loves. Once we have all of this power, then we can go back to socislism-lite like we had a few years ago. This is how we save the Republic.

59 So absent 60 Rs in the senate, there's absolutely no reason to believe Obamacare will ever be repealed.

And the only way we get 60 Rs in the senate is if we break Texas into 10 smaller states.

IOW: Boned.

Also: L.I.B.

Posted by: krakatoa
..................
You don't need 60 R's - you need 60 votes.

One of the reasons many of us in favor of letting Obamacare kick in is that Dems in purple states will feel the pinch from their electorate after said electorate feels all the warm gooey goodness of O'care.

Let it kick in and let the pain begin.

60 There's a reasonable argument that he's even wrong about the New Deal and Great Society.They, in fact, spelled Doom for conservatism, we're just still living it out.

 

 

Posted by: tsrblke at September 16, 2013 11:51 AM (GaqMa)

 

__________________

 

That's what I'm  saying.  We can't even agree on  what shape the world  is, and we're supposed to accept this "Serious, You Guys!  It's  not that bad!"  stupidity?

 

Not that Gabe will condescend  to debate these points, mind you.  His  biggest  problem is that he's been completely captured by the  system,  therefore he thinks that with an emoticon or two of parliamentary tinkering - voila!  Problem solved.

 

He doesn't understand  what the core of the problem is:  THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

 

Whistling  past the fucking  graveyard  as long as the checks cash.. He better hope that the crash  doesn't occur in his lifetime, because  I think he is ill prepared for a life unsupported  by  feeding off government activity.

61 How about no continuing resolutions. Pass a budget in the house, the dems can either take it or leave it. Either be an apposition party or we can just all vote dem. Posted by: Big Ben It'll be considered a shutdown by the Repubs. Guaren-effing-tee it. Either you think the Republicans can win by starting a shutdown(or be the scapegoat for it), or not and it may be better to try anything else. I personally don't know. If the R's were smart(hah!) and united(bwaahaha) it might work, but only then.

62 #51 Any Repub who goes against Vitter needs to be out on his/her fat ass. This is a winning proposition with a huge majority of the voters and is very smart politics.

63 Counting one dead shooter, seven victims.

64 >>>See, I want the government shutdown in and of itself and watch the lib's heads explode.
After all the scandals and abuse I think alot of Americans want to shut the government down because they think it will reign it in when all other measures have failed.

So...there's what you think "alot of Americans want," and there's what those Americans have themselves said in poll after poll, plus the empirical evidence of prior history (both the government shutdown of the '90s and the threatened ones during the Obama years).  Your belief is diametrically opposed to the polling numbers and the empirical evidence.  What case can you make that we should jettison the latter in favor of your gut feeling about this?

65

But I bet a huge reason people don't want to go along with the plan Gabe and others are proposing is that they just don't trust the GOP leadership. The leadership have shown themselves to be cowardly, caving and hiding rather than standing for principle and fighting.

 

Pre-frigging-cisely.  The GOP needs to die.

66 @ABC: Source tells @PierreTABC shooter was a former Navy official in his 50's whose work status recently changed

67 And to preempt Ace's take:  no  one is trying to silence Gabe  because  he has a different opinion.  We  are giving ours. 

68 That said a lot of you are putting out extremely ugly commentary on people that don't agree with you that shutting down is the best way to go. Most of the "responses" here are "RINO/ESTABLISHMENT/THATS CAVING!!!", which aren't actual arguments.

69 Any description of Navy Yard shooter yet? Target suggests ROP, rather than random nutjob.

70 Remember the Contract with America... there was no house majority for 40 years, then people knew we stood for something and for the first time in 40 years were in the game.

71 Your belief is diametrically opposed to the polling numbers and the empirical evidence. What case can you make that we should jettison the latter in favor of your gut feeling about this? Posted by: Jeff B. at September 16, 2013 11:59 AM (AITON) Something Must Be Done!(TM)

72 Heh, Gabe said "us." 

73

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 11:58 AM (CJjw5)

 

even the resurgence of conservatism after these periods failed to accomplish much (sadly.)

Conservatism makes a few comebacks every now and then, but, as I said above, no one wants their ox gored, only everyone else's.

I came to realize that some time ago, and came to the realization that I was much the same.  So now I'm all for goring my own particular oxen, it's the only way.

74 >>>Someone please explain why I should give a fuck about his conclusions. I'm having a difficult time with it.

Because the only intellectually valid approach to analyzing an argument is to consider it on its merits rather than on the basis of ad hominem, or disagreements with peripheral statements?  Anything else is the application of  a lazy (and oftentimes erroneous) heuristic, IMO.  Even the Devil (and Avik Roy is not the Devil, rather he's one of the very few conservative healthcare policy thinkers out there) can make correct arguments every now and then.

75 66: So this time it might actually be "workplace violence"? Weird

76 Tell you what, why don't we try passing an actual motherfucking budget and stop this continuing resolution bullshit? How about we try doing that? I know, I know, I'm an insane defeatist Republican. Oh. Wait. I haven't been a Republican for a few years now because of shit like this. So just insane and defeatist then. I mean, it's almost like I believe that principles matter and sometimes a stupid and futile gesture is needed to defend them. I know the Constitution is pesky and annoying and prevents sheer power grabs and all that but, oddly enough, I am a bit fond of it.

77 One thing that bothers me about Gabe's argument is that it relies totally on the conventional wisdom. Gov't shutdown = bad news for Republicans/conservatives. Maybe. But it's not 1994 anymore. The public is much more in tune with looming doom, not in a detailed policy sense, but in the general way things settle in with the uninformed public. They have settled in on "Obamacare is bad." Yes, the media will be against us; but when will that be different?

78

Because the only intellectually valid approach to analyzing an argument is to consider it on its merits rather than on the basis of ad hominem, or disagreements with peripheral statements?

 

 

----------------------------------

 

All  I got from that was "Blah, blah, blah,"  RINO.

79

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 12:00 PM (CJjw5)

 

 

One further, I want to here more of Gabe's point, and if Ace thinks otherwise he's totally off base.

Trust me, I want to believe we can find a way out of this that's as simple as some parliamentary tricks followed by a conservative windfall.  I really want to believe that, but the evidence provided thus far doesn't even come close to that.

 

Truth be told, I'm pretty sure the R's in congress have more or less given up, they just pretend to get our money and votes.

80 "and republicans will get the blame"
yeah, that would be different than what

81 Uhh.. Right, I was asking about HOW we win those elections.

That's what Cantor's plan is trying to help accomplish- forcing Senate Dems go on record voting for Obamacare implementation (again), even after pretty much everyone recognizes it for the clusterfuck that it is.

82 Start saying the words people like Gabe hate to hear: nullification and secession. Only way things are ever going to be fixed. Does anyone else read these posts and wonder when they clicked Huffpo?

83 The article's condescending, childish tone put me off immediately. That he reiterated the same cowslop we've been hearing for months was not a surprise.

84 The public is much more in tune with looming doom, not in a detailed policy sense, but in the general way things settle in with the uninformed public. They have settled in on "Obamacare is bad." Yes, the media will be against us; but when will that be different? Posted by: lawdvd at September 16, 2013 12:04 PM (UpdGw) Can someone please provide evidence of this? I just don't believe it. The FSA is alive and well.

85 Oh Jeff B's here to turn us into NRO lite.

86 The commenter above who notes the absolute cowardice and lack of leadership is 100% correct. Malor says trust them. Why? In the recent Syria debacle, Cantor and Boehner raced to the microphones to back Obama, who has promptly kicked them in the nuts by way of thanks. The government subsidy for staffers was an easy point to fight about-where were they? Nowhere to be found. To hell with trusting them and their awesome wisdom.

87 clearly the GOP isn't going to defund it. Hell i don't even think they (being leadership) have a plan at all, but if they're going to fund it then they need to force all Obama's delayed portions to start on time like the law states. Let the fucking corporatists that pushed this thing eat obamacare cake and like it.

88
Eh. Govt shutdowns aren't really govt shutdowns, they still spend 104% instead of 106%.

But Barky and Mooch will still have WH concerts wth Surf, Turf and Caviar.  So that's good.

89 60 votes in the Senate, eh?

That's your "we can't do nothing until" point?

Ok, I'll bite: Name the states and the Senators we are going to defeat in 2014 to make this happen.

Here, I'll help:
There are 46 Republican Senators.
There are 20 Dem seats up in 2014.

Which of those 14--while holding ALL 15 GOP--will flip?
The one in DE, IL, MN, IA, MI, OR, RI, HI, CO, NM?

I count ten solid Dem right there.

Yeah.

Guess why I don't believe this plan?

Because it's not realistic from the start and has a built in "but we couldn't have done nothing, it's not our fault we didn't get 60 in the Senate" escape hatch.

90 >>>All I got from that was "Blah, blah, blah," RINO.

I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but I worry that this is indeed the way a lot of people have begun to think.  And it's a recipe for intellectual disaster.  An argument is good or bad independent of the person who is making it.  If Andrew fuckin' Sullivan made a good point I would listen to it and accept it (whilst still thinking of Sullivan as a useless toady, of course).  To adopt any other approach is to declare that one has mentally checked out of the debate.  Which isn't a mortal sin or anything -- we're just people commenting on a blog, FFS -- but it's still bad form, isn't it? 

91 We need to quit thinking Drunk Boner has a winning strategy.  Do the right thing and quit worrying about what people think.

92 Gov't shutdown = bad news for Republicans/conservatives.

That's the CW, but the actual electoral results of the 90s shutdown are a lot less clear: the GOP lost 2 House seats but kept a firm majority, and gained 2 Senate seats (also keeping the majority).  That's basically statistical noise.

93 Can someone please provide evidence of this? I just don't believe it. The FSA is alive and well. Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 56% more DOOM! at September 16, 2013 12:06 PM (09o/X) Sorry for my ignorance; let me know what "FSA" and I'll respond to your point.

94 Off topic: Since everybody commits three felonies a day and since prosecution for these felonies relies entirely on prosecutorial discretion, and since the IRS scandal indicates how that discretion is likely to be applied, here is some news you can use:

http://www.blacktable.com/gillin030901.htm

95 Gabriel, Bravo!

96 Truth be told, I'm pretty sure the R's in congress have more or less given up, they just pretend to get our money and votes. Posted by: tsrblke at September 16, 2013 12:04 PM (GaqMa) BINGO! At least a huge number of them have.

97

90 -

 

Dude, do you really think people actually read what you write? 

98 clearly the GOP isn't going to defund it. Hell i don't even think they (being leadership) have a plan at all, but if they're going to fund it then they need to force all Obama's delayed portions to start on time like the law states. Let the fucking corporatists that pushed this thing eat obamacare cake and like it. Posted by: Vote Lord Humungus 2016 at September 16, 2013 12:08 PM (HEa5q) I want to know if we are a nation of laws or not. The evidence is mounting that we are not. I mean *koff* delegation doctrine *koff* it's one thing to pass a law and have it be implemented via regulatory action and it's another to more or less openly state that the text of the law is only a first draft. The text of a law that has been duly passed by Congress and signed by the President is supposed to be the text that is followed. It's not supposed to be Cher explaining to her father that the grades on her report card are only a starting offer.

99 Sorry for my ignorance; let me know what "FSA" and I'll respond to your point. Posted by: lawdvd at September 16, 2013 12:10 PM (UpdGw) Free Shit Army

100

92 -

 

The argument only works if you assume that the gov't shutdown led to Clinton's reelection.

 

Nominating Bob Dole had nothing to do with it, I guess. 

101 Hey, remember when Serious You Guys we've solved the spending issue with the sequester geniuses were telling us that it was the politics above all that counted? Congrats, Gabe--you've decided that a) defense spending and not entitlements are the problem, b) trillion dollar deficits with a rapacious federal govenrment sitll place are the way to go because STRATEGY, and c) that we can count on this President to obey the rule of law. Snort.

102

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 16, 2013 12:09 PM (AITON)

 

You did see the little aside above where EoJ expanded on my comment on his snarky point right?

103 "92 Gov't shutdown = bad news for Republicans/conservatives." This is burned into that pussy Boehner's mind thanks to the beating they took back in the 90's from the press. He's got no stomach for the fight and he's not Newt he's not driven by ideas or ideology dude was simply the next guy in line when they took the house back. And when he leaves, Cantor's sorry weasel ass is the next guy so we're stuck with him.

104

Perhaps it's more telling that Congresscritters are far more interested in exempting themselves from the clusterfuck that is   OCare than in doing anything for us proles,  like repealing it in its entirety.

 

They always stand on principle for that. Laws for thee, but not for me.

105 If Congress critters and staff were subject to Obamacare the complexion of this argument would change. Vitter probably doesn't have a prayer but at least he brings it to the table.

106 Make democrats vote up/down again on ObamaCare funding? Yeah that will hurt them. The GOP is playing small political games while the democrats are winning.

107

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 16, 2013 12:05 PM (SY2Kh)

 

OK, fine.

And I don't think it'll work.

As is pointed out, Reid will find a way to avoid the vote all together, the Dims will twist what "Defunding ObamaCare" is.

Etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

 

The public is not a fan of tactical victories, they want a solid one, and if we can't deliver that SOMEWHERE (it doesn't even have to be in Obamacare anywhere else!)

We're boned. 

108 So, let's see - the public doesn't like Obamacare. They would like to see it repealed. So coming out for the position the public supports is political suicide somehow?

109 Jeff B., I understand the point you're trying to make about rejecting an argument because of the person proffering it. But I don't think that's the case here. We've rehashed this argument over and over again at the HQ, even on one of the podcasts. So it's not like people haven't heard and considered both sides of the argument. Whatever RINO-shaming of GOP members (not commenters) is going on here is being done for a reason, and IMO, is mostly well-deserved. Because the GOP is a party of cowards.

110 By definition, any action, any news, any option out of Congress is bad news for the Republicans when brought to you by your nightly news or other MSM outlet.  Well, unless its John McCain and he slams other republicans, or it's Lindsey Grahamnesty and he's butt kissing Dear Leader.

111 Nominating Bob Dole had nothing to do with it, I guess. Nominating Bob Dole in 1996 was pissing in the face of the 1994 new guard. It really looked like the old guard telling the “Republican revolution” that they’d rather lose an election than support the new conservatives.

112 The text of a law that has been duly passed by Congress and signed by the President is supposed to be the text that is followed. It's not supposed to be Cher explaining to her father that the grades on her report card are only a starting offer. Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Now more than ever. at September 16, 2013 12:12 PM (VtjlW) on a side note a big problem we have is congress is lazy and writes blank checks to the newly created bureaucracies. How many times did that bill say "as the secretary determines"? that's not writing laws that's creating an all powerful and all meddlesome administrative state.

113 The argument only works if you assume that the gov't shutdown led to Clinton's reelection.

Nominating Bob Dole had nothing to do with it, I guess.

I like Bob Dole, even after the Viagra commercials, but he was about as likely to beat Billy Jeff as John Kerry was to beat Bush.

114 "Defeat is the anticipated outcome" only if those in Congress believe it to be. What I have never for a moment understood is why any Republican ostensibly opposed to ObamaCare wouldn't grasp any offered opportunity to fight against it. Sure, make the president veto the budget. Or make Senators stand up for it stubbornly. If we lose, fine. But don't miss the chance to fight. Gabes primary objection is closing the government in the process. Soaps a two week CR, pass the budget without ObamaCare and see what the Senate does. With ZeroCare polling so negative, you might be surprised.

115 I got nothin' - Gabe said it for me.

116 OT DC police chief says one dead shooter, looking for two others, one black one white, both in military type uniforms

117 81 Uhh.. Right, I was asking about HOW we win those elections.

That's what Cantor's plan is trying to help accomplish- forcing Senate Dems go on record voting for Obamacare implementation (again), even after pretty much everyone recognizes it for the clusterfuck that it is.
=========
There is a whole graveyard full of bills the House has passed since 2010 to "force" the "Senate Dems go on record voting for Obamacare implementation" funding, etc.

Not. One. Has. Been.Voted. On. In. The. Senate.

Not. A. Fucking. One.

So, you tell me how this is so totally different the the Dems--with 2014 barreling down on them--will magically take up _this_ bill, _this_ time.

This isn't a plan, this is a, "shake your dick in the direction of Denver and before noon three hot chicks will knock on your door offering to blow you" chain letter.

118
I don't like either party at this point, but I fail to see the evidence that Repubs getting "blamed" for a govt shutdown has any effect at the polls.

The MFM says it does and will, but there is no evidence.

119 Two problems with the Cantor plan. 1) Too long to fit on a bumper-sticker. 2) Requires that we trust *CANTOR*, who has a great track record of folding like a cheap suit, to pull it off. Seriously, this is why even pompous windbags like Erickson distrust Cantor .. they can't sell his plan and they don't trust that he has the stones to actually *do* it. Mew

120

Gov't shutdown = bad news for Republicans/conservatives.

 

 

That's the CW, but the actual electoral results of the 90s shutdown are a lot less clear: the GOP lost 2 House seats but kept a firm majority, and gained 2 Senate seats (also keeping the majority). That's basically statistical noise.

 

 

Posted by: Ian S. at September 16, 2013 12:10 PM (B/VB5)

 

------------------------

 

I was in the Army during the Clinton shutdown.  Everybody  got paid, including the civilian DOD  workers who  were furloughed.  They all got made whole,  essentially gaining 4 weeks  of unscheduled  paid vacation.

 

This idea that a shutdown will mean Armageddon  for the GOP  is not supported by history, including Ian S.'  remarks.

 

There,  JeffB,  is  my  reasoning measured  and intellectual enough for you, you fucking RINO pussyboy?

 

 

121 Posts like this are why I've given up all hope.

122

I love Cruz. He's the first Republican in my memory who is openly discussing hot to take the fight to the Left and the resolve required to do so. His plan explicitly calls for a "Full Monty" of commitment to work. But I'm afraid the GOP is not even close to capable to this. Moreover, the bulk of the Boehner/McConnell GOP is avowedly committed to NOT fighting the Left, to NOT endorsing a mission statement of combat-conservatism.

So I'm a bit torn here. I don't trust Cantor or Boehner as far as my 85 year old mother can throw them. I don't trust the GOP to EVER defund or reverse Obamacare. I want to be realistic but at the same time there is no precedent for trusting the "realists."

I want to fight.

123 118 OT DC police chief says one dead shooter, looking for two others, one black one white, both in military type uniforms

Posted by: thunderb at September 16, 2013 12:18 PM (zOTsN)

How recent is that? Others saying lone gunman.

124 Start saying the words people like Gabe hate to hear: nullification and secession. Only way things are ever going to be fixed. Does anyone else read these posts and wonder when they clicked Huffpo?

Posted by: @koenigjojo at September 16, 2013 12:05 PM (djsMm)

 

-- Yes!

125 What an incredible post. Are we to pass bills in the House only when victory in the Senate is a certainty? That's Gabe's argument.

126 Fuck this delaying the individual mandate shit. The more we delay it the longer it will be until we get it repealed, if ever. Obama can't have his cake and eat it too, but that's exactly what Cantor is attempting to facilitate.

127

115 -

 

Yup.  The other funny part about all the revisionist history going on regarding the 90s is the fact that people forgot Billy Jeff NEVER topped 50 precent of the vote. 

 

The way people remember it  nowadays  is that  he was the most popular guy ever elected, and everything he did was  popular, and nothing  the Republicans ever did made a dent in the wonderment that was/is  Clinton. 

128 Still tons of chaos in the reporting.

129 on a side note a big problem we have is congress is lazy and writes blank checks to the newly created bureaucracies. How many times did that bill say "as the secretary determines"? that's not writing laws that's creating an all powerful and all meddlesome administrative state. Posted by: Vote Lord Humungus 2016 at September 16, 2013 12:17 PM (HEa5q) Oh I agree hence the delegation doctrine comment. I've yammered on and on and on and on about my loathing for Congress abdicating law making authority to administrative agencies. Hell, look at the exemption from Obamacare for Congress. Remember, the Grassley Amendment specifically removed such an exemption (I'm using exemption for ease of use though that's not technically what is at issue). Congresscritters' staff shrieked about this and, voila, there's an OPM ruling that completely obliterates the language of the bill itself. That's not the rule of law. That's tyranny. I am not being hyperbolic. When the actual text of a law itself is subject to the vagaries of interpretation by an unelected and unaccountable administrative agency, that is, in effect, tyranny. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go hide my pruno bag. *shifty eyes* I know you bastards are trying to steal it. *shifty eyes*

130 Really good writing.

131 joncelli Police Chief made the statement about 5 minutes ago.  Confirmed one shooter dead, looking for two others based on witness statements, one black, one white, both in military style garb.  Witnesses can be wrong

132 Which one of you guys ordered the circular firing squad...............

 

 

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 16, 2013 12:14 PM (OWjjx)

 

-------------------------

 

I am so tired of this ridiculous analogy.  Circular firing squads can be perfectly safe.  And pretty damn cool, if you ask me.

 

1.  Place the condemned upon a pedestal  with a height of at least eight  feet.

 

2.  Arrange  the firing  squad in a circle  around the pedestal,  so that  their aiming point is well above  the heads of the other members  of the  execution detail.

 

3.  Enjoy!

 

Safe.  Easy.  Entertaining.

133 These jokers are so sure of what will happen in the Senate, futurecasting like gypsy bitches, that they don't want to go through the whole icky Democratic process. Better to skip ahead to our big loss without actually making the Dens take the field. And we're the one's not being rational, the fortune cookie readers are the level heads.

134

24 Either be an apposition party or we can just all vote dem.

 

Hate to be a Pedant McPedantpants here, but the whole problem is that we have an apposition party when we need an opposition party.

 

135

127 -

 

"1996 - worst field ever. "

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 16, 2013 12:20 PM (OWjjx)

 

 

____________________

 

2012 thanks you for that.

136 Dems

137 By the way, this bill was snuck in on reconciliation, AKA arcane political magick fit for George Lucas's "Star Wars: Procedural Chronicles of the Galactic Republic." Can't we repeal the bill the same way, with 54 votes? (or was it 55?) It would be unbelievably hypocritical, even for Dems, to insist we need 60 to take this monster down. And if they do, we need to remember and use it against them.

138 1) A plan that relies on getting a 60-vote majority in the Senate in 2016 is more unrealistic than anything else.

2) A plan that takes the media narrative about a government shutdown as a foregone conclusion is DOA. The media is going to portray Republicans poorly in the 2016 election as well, you know. The Republicans' job is to compete with it and push their own narrative, not roll over and die.

3) The Republicans didn't lose ground after the '96 shutdown. Has it occurred to you that even if someone "blames" the Republicans for a shutdown, they might not care about it, or could even like it?

4) The defund-now crowd are the realists here. You see, while we'd like Obamacare overturned, we realize that it's very likely not going to happen in a straight-up, above-board vote, and that we need to adopt guerrilla tactics to interfere with it and make it unworkable at every opportunity, while simultaneously shouting our own narrative to compete with the media's.

139

looking for a white guy in a tan military uniform with a beret (presumed Navy) with hand gun

 

looking for a black guy in fatigues with long gun

 

dead shooter guy in black shirt and jeans

140 Here was your field: Dole, Buchanan, Forbes, Keyes, Doran, Graham, Lugar and Snarlin Arlin Spector.

Wow!  I'd forgotten about some of those jokers.  Dick Lugar actually ran in the primary?

141 Test

142 We need to quit thinking Drunk Boner has a winning strategy. Do the right thing and quit worrying about what people think.

Umm... caring about what people think is pretty important if you want to get anywhere in a representative democracy.

143 So, let's see - the public doesn't like Obamacare. They would like to see it repealed.

So coming out for the position the public supports is political suicide somehow? Posted by: blaster
.............
The public..  no, some of the public don;t like it.. but not even a majority in most polls.  However, even less like it... but there are a whole lot of undecideds.

But it is not, by far, an overwhelming majority against it.

144 from Newsbusters:

During CNN's live coverage of Monday's shooting at the Washington Navy Yard, anchor Carol Costello asked when the last time was that a gunman wreaked "havoc at a U.S. military facility."


"I used to work in Washington, live in Washington. This seems so unusual to me that a gunman could create this kind of havoc at a U.S. military facility," Costello stated. "Have you ever heard of it happening before, Brian?" she asked correspondent Brian Todd, reporting live from the vicinity of the shooting.

145 Awesome post Gabe. Way to bring it!

146 Here's the problem: The base has been betrayed by the leadership so often (amnesty, Syria, just two very recent examples) that they have to get the base back. The base is so wretchedly demoralized and has been so beaten down that the leadership needs to do something to bring them back. I blame the leadership for putting themselves in this position. If you go against your base often enough, you lose their support even when it's (arguably) in their best interest. Republicans get blamed for the shutdown? Pfft. Republicans get blamed for EVERYTHING. Everything we do, everything we don't do. There's nothing to lose here, in my opinion. If the biggest argument is that the "media will say mean things about us" well then we surrender before we take the field. Maybe this is a bad strategy, I don't know. Washington politics is a complex beast. But I do know the leadership can't go against the base again and again and then expect the base to follow them later.

147 Bold leadership indeed.

148 Jeff vs Jeff Battle Royal is back!!

I really wish the Jeffs were actually women with big boobehs and sharp elbows, the hits on this site would go through the roof

And maybe Ace would get his own tv show

149 And, last. The cockamamie idea that the Dems would ever get blamed for a gov't shutdown, with a libtard press calling the shots, is not only naive, it is stupid.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at September 16, 2013 11:34 AM (AYOav)

 

I agree the GOP catches the blame in the event of a government shutdown; however, if the Republicans won't take a definitive, do-or-die stand on Obamacare, the most unpopular, expensive, intrustive and unworkable piece of legislation ever forced down the throats of the American people, then on what issue, exactly, will they fight? The MSM will portray Republicans as bigots on immigration, anti-family farm on agriculture, and cruel, mean-spirited misers on entitlement reform. It is what it is.

 

If the GOP worries about bad press whenever they make a move, they'll never make a move.

150 Can someone tell me what side Gabe is on so I can reliably pick the other side as the correct one.   Seriously though,  can Congress delay the mandate?  By what mechanism?  Doesn't the Senate have to sign off on that also?

151 This reminds me of the immigration debate. That was the only other time I used principled, tactical reasoning and was called names by MY FELLOW RIGHT-THINKERS! Me: "Is the Gang of Eight smart to swell immigration during a recession?" WSJ: "Fuck you! Why do you hate brown people?!?" Me: "I don't see how Cruz's plan has an endpoint. How do we win this fight?" 7/8 of the Podcast Hosts: "Fuck you, RINO squish!"

152

There  is a word that has been used to good effect in Congress and would readily apply to Hairy Reed: Obstructionist. 

 

The GOP could be using this word in every sentence about legislation that the Pubbies have crafted that  Reed has killed in the Senate.  They could be using this word  to describe Reed and his refusal  to accede to the will of the people, who don't want this law.  But, NOOOOO....

 

Separate but equal argument: all the stories on the Part-Time Nation we're about to become as a result of OCare.    Why is this being ignored by the GOP?  I'm starting to get the feeling that they actually want the world's  largest economy crippled by a bad  law that nobody wants.

 

We are so terribly screwed...

153 142 looking for a white guy in a tan military uniform with a beret (presumed Navy) with hand gun

looking for a black guy in fatigues with long gun

dead shooter guy in black shirt and jeans

Posted by: thunderb at September 16, 2013 12:26 PM (zOTsN)

Hrm. Witnesses with overactive imaginations, perhaps?

154 Sorry for my ignorance; let me know what "FSA" and I'll respond to your point. Posted by: lawdvd at September 16, 2013 12:10 PM (UpdGw) Free Shit Army Thanks, I spit my coffee on that. New one on me. I get your point, we received a $400 refund check on our health insurance a few months ago with a cover letter explaining that it was due to the ACA. Fee money, whooo hooo! Sign.Me.Up. But that is what the underlying concern here is. The longer it is in place, the more the "FSA" is going to fight any change. On my original point, that ACA is widely unpopular, here's the latest Pew poll from the sidebar: http://tinyurl.com/pzbalv4. Lot's of employers are libs and they hate it. Unions will say they hate it until the administration finds a way to hand out the candy (and they will). But those are the kind of things I'm talking about; this is not the usual conservative gripe that only we are talking about; the gripes have gone beyond the chattering classes to the workplace cooler. Let's leverage that into action. Or not, per Gabe.

155 Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Now more than ever. at September 16, 2013 12:23 PM (VtjlW) How come conservatives can't articulate stuff like this all the time instead of the retarded feel-good bagging on Mom Jeans and sallies into Indonesia? I mean, that's all well and good - look what happened to Kerry when he windsurfed - if you got the advantage. WE DON'T.

156

149 -

 

You're probably right, but at least 1996 has the benefit of having been   long enough ago to have been  forgotten to some extent. 

157

This isn't a plan, this is a, "shake your dick in the direction of Denver and before noon three hot chicks will knock on your door offering to blow you" chain letter.

 

*squirt*

158 I used to work in Washington, live in Washington. This seems so unusual to me that a gunman could create this kind of havoc at a U.S. military facility," Costello stated. "Have you ever heard of it happening before, Brian?" she asked correspondent Brian Todd, reporting live from the vicinity of the shooting.

Posted by: Jones in CO at September 16, 2013 12:26 PM (8sCoq)

 

I hope she feels like the stupid retard she  is after someone pointed  out the obvious to her. 

159

@ Mallamutt,

 

I see your  1996 field  and raise you a John McCain,  Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney,  Ron Paul!,  Fred Thompson, Duncan Hunter,  Alan  Keyes and Rudy Giuliani.

 

2008  bitchez!  Embrace The  Mediocrity!

160 Why in the HELL do you think "forcing" the dems to vote for obamacare/not defund is some kind of win?!? They will vote for it all day... You should work for Boner...delusional!

161 "I used to work in Washington, live in Washington. This seems so unusual to me that a gunman could create this kind of havoc at a U.S. military facility," Costello stated. "Have you ever heard of it happening before, Brian?" she asked correspondent Brian Todd, reporting live from the vicinity of the shooting.
Posted by: Jones in CO at September 16, 2013 12:26 PM

I don't know if Ms Costello is way over the line retarded or they're so comfortable in covering for TFG that they're just phoning it in now

162 >>>I was in the Army during the Clinton shutdown. Everybody got paid, including the civilian DOD workers who were furloughed. They all got made whole, essentially gaining 4 weeks of unscheduled paid vacation.

This idea that a shutdown will mean Armageddon for the GOP is not supported by history, including Ian S.' remarks.

There, JeffB, is my reasoning measured and intellectual enough for you, you fucking RINO pussyboy?

First off, I'm trying to not be a jerk in this thread, so it would be cool if you could abjure as well.  Second of all, I don't think this argument is very convincing at all.  Sure, you were in the army and didn't have your pay skipped.  You were okay.  But you were in a select demographic in terms of your knowledge of the effects of the shutdown.  The rest of America?  All they heard was the constant media/Democratic bleating of "government shuts down, comes to a halt, all hell breaks loose!"  I think it's a massive mistake to project your extremely well-informed and detailed understanding of what a government shutdown would entail onto the voting public at large -- they will instead be getting their messaging from the MSM and the Democrats, and the "reality" of things will be rather immaterial.  Is that cruelly unfair and a fucking travesty?  Sure is.  It's also a fact of the world we live in. 

That's why I think that you pointing to your own experience in 1996 (and your knowledge level) is a trap here.  As for Ian's point about electoral consequences, nobody wants a long post from me breaking down demographic and political shifts in the nation between '96 and '14, but suffice to say we live in a different country now than we did back then.  Furthermore, the ballot box wasn't the only place where the consequences were felt, it was also felt in terms of legislative momentum.  We were in a far stronger position then (with control over both houses) so we were still able to get some things done, but with only one chamber (and the weaker one at that)?  It would go harder for us this time.

163 AmishDude is correct. In their arrogance, they have forgotten that you can't win elections without their base. And I doubt their is anything they could do to win most of the base back at this point.

164 The GOP gets good press only when they go along slavishly with the fake Messiah, and that never lasts. So waiting or hoping for good press is, how do you say, idiotic and insane, i.e., if they actually plan to oppose anything the 0 does. How about looking for a way to get your message out despite a reliably hostile press, which will forever be fantastically hostile to you and accuse you of roasting little baby children and having them for dinner.

165 Umm... caring about what people think is pretty important if you want to get anywhere in a representative democracy.

And it's worked out so well for us. My bad.

166 Posted by: thunderb at September 16, 2013 12:18 PM (zOTsN)

And Homeland Security has already begun claiming that it wasn't terrorism.

Why, oh why can't American servicemen be armed? Every active duty Israeli carries a weapon, even to the beach.

That's one reason why terrorists tend to end up dead in Israel.

http://tinyurl.com/kov7oht

167 Putin's buttboy is on TV.

168 Emperor YOLO now speaking.  So we've got that going for us.

169 This isn't a plan, this is a, "shake your dick in the direction of Denver and before noon three hot chicks will knock on your door offering to blow you" chain letter.
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 16, 2013 12:18 PM (VjL9S)

Hey, my cousin's buddy says that totes works, dude!

170

I really wish the Jeffs were actually women with big boobehs and sharp elbows, the hits on this site would go through the roof

 

---------------------

 

If  I had big boobs,  you wouldn't hear from me again.

171 Nice work Mr. Malor. Way to call out that dumbass Canadian obstructionist Cruz.

172 Gov't shutdown = bad news for Republicans/conservatives.


That's the CW, but the actual electoral results of the 90s shutdown are a lot less clear: the GOP lost 2 House seats but kept a firm majority, and gained 2 Senate seats (also keeping the majority). That's basically statistical noise.


Posted by: Ian S. at September 16, 2013 12:10 PM (B/VB5)

------------------------

I was in the Army during the Clinton shutdown. Everybody got paid, including the civilian DOD workers who were furloughed. They all got made whole, essentially gaining 4 weeks of unscheduled paid vacation.

This idea that a shutdown will mean Armageddon for the GOP is not supported by history, including Ian S.' remarks.
=================

These turds keep trying to scare us with the big, bad election destruction that will follow.*

Fine.

Name and state of Senator and Representative of the Republican Party wherein reelection is in doubt should the "currently barely polling above pond scum" Republican Party be blamed for a shut-down.

You claim you've superior tactics--prove it: Show me you have thought this out into the real world and not the bull session of the faculty lounge.

Go back to that list of Senators up for reelection. Point me to the state that GOP will lose if the GOP brand is tarnished even worse.

*Just like they did with the "sequester of death and worldwide destruction" that never happened. But that they are now taking credit for and claiming is working so damned well.

173 Start saying the words people like Gabe hate to hear: nullification and secession.

I think national collapse is inevitable, and the real takeaway from Gabe's post is there's not a damn thing we can do about Obamacare. And Obamacare is unsustainable. Therefore, fiscal collapse and national dissolution are inevitable consequences.

We just have to, individually, hunker down and prepare to survive The Burning.

174
How come conservatives can't articulate stuff like this all the time instead of the retarded feel-good bagging on Mom Jeans and sallies into Indonesia?

Conservatives can and do, Republicans on the other hand can't and don't and if they could won't, because they aren't necessarily conservatives.

175 >I don't know if Ms Costello is way over the line retarded or they're so comfortable in covering for TFG that they're just phoning it in now



it's just reflexive at this point now-

176 Gaaaah. When you look back on that '96 field and realize that Phil Gramm was head and houlders above other alternatives, it does things to your worldview.

177 Here was your field: Dole, Buchanan, Forbes, Keyes, Doran, Graham, Lugar and Snarlin Arlin Spector. Well, Steve Forbes certainly seemed like a good idea at the time. I never understood Alan Keyes. Lindsey Graham was part of the new guard, literally: he first came into the House from the 1994 elections. Not saying he would have been good, but I do think he would have been better than Dole. Doran, you mean Bob Dornan? Between him, Lugar, and Spector, yeah, theyÂ’d already been in office too long in 1996.

178 Umm... caring about what people think is pretty important if you want to get anywhere in a representative democracy.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at September 16, 2013 12:26 PM (SY2Kh)

It's a Constitutional Republic.

And caring about what "people" think is why we are fucked.

179

>>>If I had big boobs, you wouldn't hear from me again.

 

 

Second look at Bosom Buddies?

180 Posted by: chique d'afrique, formerly Chelsea, now back to being an actual female at September 16, 2013 12:31 PM (r+7wo) The only way out of this problem seems to be Letting It Burn. Republicans didn't Let It Burn enough leading up to 2012 so the stupid electorate stupidly voted for the guy who gave them 17% real unemployment. The only way LIVs wake up from the Matrix is if a Sentinel jams cold metal tentacles up their asses.

181

The only way LIVs wake up from the Matrix is if a Sentinel jams cold metal tentacles up their asses.

 

*furiously writing down notes*

182 @188: In fairness, Pat Buchanan wasn't quite as widely outed as Teh Crazee in 1996, even though there were clear signs.

183 The problem, as usual, is the leftist control of the media. The only solution is to fund alternate conservative and, when possible, destroy leftist media. Destroying leftist media is much harder than funding right-wing media. NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR, Daily Show, etc, etc are all still they and full progtard ... but we built up FoxNews. And talk radio. And Drudge. And Ace. Best thing is to give cash money to media outlets you support. Whether that's Ace or Fox or TheBlaze or GatewayPundit or Breitbart or HotAir or John Derbyshire or whoever. Reward your friends and punish your enemies. Don't just whine to your enemies that are being unfair and mean to you. Of course they are -- they consider you the enemy. It's insane to plead for better treatment from your enemies.

184 This whole predicament is the reason why I despise shrill jackasses like Erick Erickson.  The only thing the shutdown they want so badly will do is help the Democrats gain control of the House. Anyone who think a shutdown while the Dems control the Senate and the White House is going to come out in Republican favor is simply not worth listening to anymore.

185 And Alan Keyes wants you to know that today, he will be at Redz B-B-Q Shack in Des Moines, Iowa to discuss the current situation in Syria and Redz new Smoky Kansas City Style B-B-Q sauce.....but mainly to discuss the new B-B-Q sauce.

The same Alan Keyes wheo crushed bama in the Illinois senate debate.
I think ima get me some of that bbq sauce.

186

I can't make you get  the sarcasm,  Jeff.  Sorry.

 

As far as the rest of it,  your reasoning boils  down  to "but  it'll be different  THIS time,"  after  having  previously  cited the   horrible outcome of the previous  shutdown  in this earlier  comment:

 

[i}So...there's what you think "alot of Americans want," and there's what those Americans have themselves said in poll after poll, plus the empirical evidence of prior history (both the government shutdown of the '90s and the threatened ones during the Obama years). Your belief is diametrically opposed to the polling numbers and the empirical evidence. What case can you make that we should jettison the latter in favor of your gut feeling about this?[/i]

 

You  were provided  empirical evidence  by both myself and Ian S.,  and now you want  to substitute  YOUR  gut instinct  in it's place.  If we're  going on guts,  I'm  going with mine,  as the empirical  evidence  backs it up.

187 Wait, we're actually trying to gauge how good an idea is by using polls? The same polls the polling companies hold back when they don't fit their preconceived notions? The next person to call it "political science" gets a sliderule driven up their ass, sideways.

188 Posted by: Guy Mohawk at September 16, 2013 12:34 PM (sj9LN) Hey, it's a matter of percentages. I really don't hear that stuff enough compared to "look! Obama's secretly a gay Muslim usurper!" Maybe it's easier for people to take in the end because a President ignoring our laws and getting away scot free is too depressing to contemplate for long.

189 >>>And caring about what "people" think is why we are fucked.

I don't disagree that "the people" are more often than not semi-functional retards whose demands are completely contradictory and ultimately selfish...but what alternate do you propose here?  "Jam our political policies down the throats of a screaming, squealing, protesting public?"  That reminds me a lot of a certain major piece of legislation that got passed into law a couple years back...

More importantly, unless you're proposing we move to an oligarchy or a dictatorship, then what "the people" think is gonna matter now and forevermore, no matter how goddamn stupid they are.  Our only choice is to try to convince people we're right.

190

173 Putin's buttboy is on TV.

 

Which one? Medvedev or Obama?

 

191

AmishDude is correct. In their arrogance, they have forgotten that you can't win elections without their base. And I doubt their is anything they could do to win most of the base back at this point.

 

I disagree that there's nothing they can   do  to rouse the base. In fact, we point out all the   many opportunities  they miss daily.

 

If they wanted to, they could start by mentioning the manifold failures of this  administration to get the economy moving again: UE numbers (using UE-6 stats), WP numbers,   real live inflation, hell, gas  prices are still almost $4/gal and   yet no Pubbie even mentions that on the talking head shows or in interviews.

 

And that's just the economy. They could just point out the devastating  truth about the damage that Progressivism is wreaking on the country, but they won't do it. After 5 years, I'm about to believe that the GOP wants   our  country and its  people on the ropes.

192 That was Phil Graham, Senator Texas and, if you ask Phil, the Smartest Man to Ever Get Elected To The Senate. Okay, yeah, I remember him now. Phil Gramm, not Graham, right? He was an odd duck in a world of odd ducks.

193 Hugh Hewitt at September 16, 2013 12:39 PM
The dems don't control the house?  I couldn't tell.

194 Avik Roy? Sounds French. Need I say more?

195 The next person to call it "political science" gets a sliderule driven up their ass, sideways.

I like the cut of your jib sir, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

196 Our only choice is to try to convince people we're right.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 16, 2013 12:40 PM (AITON)

And parliamentary tricks are the way to do it....right. Provided we have someone keep them awake while we explain the 11-dimensional chess we're playing....

197 I think it's a massive mistake to project your extremely well-informed and detailed understanding of what a government shutdown would entail onto the voting public at large -- they will instead be getting their messaging from the MSM and the Democrats, and the "reality" of things will be rather immaterial. People were told that the sequester meant the end of all happiness. It didn't, and people don't care that it happened. Most Americans won't notice a 'shutdown,' just like they didn't notice the credit downgrade. People will only care if services stop, and they won't.

198 I thought the Speaker said regular order, no CRs. Pass everything except the Obamacare piece, hold it until midnight. Pass it with "substantial and reasonable" cuts, "we aren't funding the parts that Obama has waived or delayed."

199 Posted by: KG at September 16, 2013 12:42 PM (p7BzH) Add some fuckin' lightsabers and I'll make it work.

200 Avik Roy? Sounds French. Need I say more?

Posted by: Countrysquire at September 16, 2013 12:42 PM (LSJmV)

Hahaha!!!  

To me, that sounds like an Indian name.

201

The only way out of this problem seems to be Letting It Burn. Republicans didn't Let It Burn enough leading up to 2012 so the stupid electorate stupidly voted for the guy who gave them 17% real unemployment.  

 

*koff* IRS targeting of conservative political groups to throw an election *koff*

202 I am impressed that the GOP is able to take an issue that they have majority public support on and screw that pooch like Ace's imagined trysts with Kate Upton.

203 Subsidies are only part of the problem. There are plenty of government programs/departments/whatever that the GOP has vowed to get rid of that don't involve much in the way of subsidies to the commoners (like the Dept of Education which only subsidizes the well-connected). Government programs have large inertia. ObamaCare already has a lot of other incentives in place. Arguing we wait for some sort of ideal time to kill it dead is in practice arguing for it to never die. But ObamaCare is unpopular right? Well the Democrats have already set the stage for it's replacement (single payer) and anything and everything the GOP does to fight ObamaCare will be turned by their political juijitsu into the reason for ObamaCare's failure and a reason for single payer ("See those Rethuglikkkans took away the subsidies because they hate poor people and what's why it didn't work...").

204 Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at September 16, 2013 12:41 PM (0HooB)

You are 100% correct.

There is so much low-hanging fruit on this tree it's incredible.

The Republican party could re-energize the base in two weeks.

Unequivocal stand against amnesty.
Unequivocal stand against ObamaCare.
Unequivocal demands for large-scale hearings into IRS/Benghazi/FandF.

They would become a powerhouse.

205 Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 16, 2013 12:43 PM (nFI1a) Wait until the National Democratic Mouthpiece apprehends our cornholes.

206

This is the kind of bullshit I reference in another comment. This is taken from Redstate and is written by Erick Erickson:" Yes, it is true, the GOP would probably get the blame for a government shut down if that happened. But if they held the line until defunding happened, they would be rewarded."

 

 

Yes, because a party that only controls one chamber of Congress is going to be able to keep the government shut down until Obamacare is defunded, forever. That is just so feasible.  I am for electing the most conservative candidate possible, but this "Defund it" bullshit, is starting to affect candidates that the Republicans need to reelect in order to maintain their majority, the only bulwark against Obama passing whatever the hell he wants for his final two years in office.  But hey, let's sacrifice that for some ridiculous pipedream that has absolutely no chance of becoming reality. It is time to marginalize people, like Erickson, who spend more time trying to defeat candidates they deem insufficiently conservative than they do Democrats. 

207 Boy, look at those congressional Republicans. They are way principled and have spines of steel. Also, they fight hard for their principles, and never give in.

208 LiFB

209 And the Senate takes up the CR that funds Obamacare, passes it.

And the Senate Dems who need symbolic votes against it, get their pass. And the Press makes sure everyone knows the CR funding Obamacare "had broad bipartisan--Democrat and Republican--support."

While Reid makes sure the amending/defunding CR bill never sees the light of day.

Yeah, I don't know why I'm so stupid I can't see why this is such a brilliant strategy.

Gee, I R Being Dumb.

Posted by: RoyalOil at September 16, 2013 11:51 AM (VjL9S)

=============

What he said... This is a pretty cynical ploy by Cantor.  Why anyone would think after years of symbolic votes against Obamacare the House GOP would have any intent of de-funding it really doesn't make much sense to me... GOP gets to say they voted against it, so do the Dems in troubled districts, Obamacare still stays in effect and a CR and Debt ceiling hike go into effect.  Its a win-win-win for Congress and the President.

210
May have been addressed above.... but Im in an skimming the comments mood today.

But..... Put the Congess Critter's and their staffs BACK on Obamacare and get rid of their premium subsidies.... and I bet the effort to defund this grows legs again.

They got theirs.... they dont have to take a bite of the shit sandwich, why would they care???

211 I am impressed that the GOP is able to take an issue that they have majority public support on and screw that pooch like Ace's imagined trysts with Kate Upton.

 

 

Posted by: blaster at September 16, 2013 12:45 PM (W6bkf)

 

-----------------------------

 

With  people like Gabriel  Malor  and JeffB whispering in their ear,  how can you expect a different outcome?

 

Retaining  the seat  is Job  One.  What you DO  when  you're in that seat is immaterial.  The process is always more important  than  the outcome to "insiders."

212 Jam our political policies down the throats of a screaming, squealing, protesting public? Obamacare was jammed down the people's throats. The squealing and protest is coming largely from the GOP leadership.

213 The more people that can get rich in conservative media the better. I especially like the Fox/Beck/Breitbart model of building up media organizations that employ large #s of people. I love Rush, but he's an island unto himself. It's basically just him reacting to the news. Of course, Rush getting rich in talk radio helped encourage many others to go into conservative talk radio hoping to be the next Rush. Which is a great thing.

214 Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at September 16, 2013 12:44 PM (0HooB) While I want the IRS to go immolate itself, Obama's margin was fatter than that. Way fatter. This wasn't exactly a squeak-in.

215 Politicians don't want to solve problems. They want to profit from them.

216 Hey, look it's the GOP accomplice squad wanting a CR rather than a budget.....

217 If the GOP worries about bad press whenever they make a move, they'll never make a move.
Posted by: troyriser at September 16, 2013 12:28 PM (gNlvW)

Um, hello?

218  A shutdown would be part of the coordinated negotiating strategy, if we had one. Just another example of leadership failure.

Given the significant amount of GOP talent, could you imagine what would happen if everyone actually worked together?

Yeah, me neither. Because it's such a remote possibility the vision is ethereal. 

219

216 -

 

And  they  would have won too, if it wasn't for those meddling Tea Party kids. 

220

Perhaps it's more telling that Congresscritters are far more interested in exempting themselves from the clusterfuck that is OCare than in doing anything for us proles, like repealing it in its entirety.

 

Exactly.  If Cantor and Cruz want to push something, then it should be simple:  NO ONE, whether politician, unionista, private citizen or beautiful person who lolls on the after deck of Jon Cary's private yacht, will be granted a waiver from, nor be allowed to exempt themselves, from Obamacare under penalty of law and / or impeachment if the dog-eating cokehead  tried to EO his way out.

 

Introduce that bill and shove it up Reid's child-molesting ass.  Make the treasonous motherfuckers take a stand that Barkycare is for us and not for them.

 

Try fighting back for once instead of searching for too-clever-by-half media-approved solutions!

221 A government shutdown would hurt only those who rely upon the government.

Now you you tell me: Is that the base of the Republican Party?

So why are we not pushing even harder for a government shutdown?

Who has a bigger incentive to keep the free shit flowing to the free shit army?
The Republican or the Dems?

And when your opponent promises a riot if he doesn't get his way, why do you think if he lights the fire he can control the burn?

Because a riot in the inner city will spiral so far out of control, no one will remember why it started . . . .

222 I always want to compromise with tyranny: it adds to the death toll later on.
In the spirit of useful compromise, how 'bout we send in the Marines, round up 700 Dem.-Commies, hold them in an outdoor pen with live video, and shoot them one at a time (instead of all at once) until The People get what We want.
Liberty.

223

But..... Put the Congess Critter's and their staffs BACK on Obamacare and get rid of their premium subsidies.... and I bet the effort to defund this grows legs again.

 

Do one  of those Intarwebz searches for "Vitter" and "healthcare" to see all the energy being spent in the Senate to make damned good and  sure they never have to suffer under OCare.

 

Wouldst that they had the same vigor for the average American.

224 Wait until the National Democratic Mouthpiece apprehends our cornholes. That was my point; they already tried that with the Sequester and it didn't work. If the GOP can never, ever win a shutdown, seriously just give up.

225 SHIT SANDWICHES! SHIIIIIIIIIIIT SANDWICHES!! GET 'EM WHILE THEY'RE HOT! SHIIIIIIIIT SANDWICHES HERE!

226 Speaking of mediocre primary fields:

http://tinyurl.com/qjnp2st

227 Avik Roy? Sounds French. "avec Roi" would mean "with King", for what it's worth. It would also mean "my French blows chunks", but that's neither here nor there.

228 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 12:47 PM (CJjw5)

A nice salary with a huge expense account.
You get to play power politics, and sometimes even be on TV.
You get to bang good-looking college students who are just thrilled to be in your presence.
You get taken out to damned fine restaurants any time you feel like it, and the check never lands on your plate.

Why would you rock the boat?

229 looking for a white guy in a tan military uniform with a beret (presumed Navy) with hand gun   
looking for a black guy in fatigues with long gun

Join the club.

230 Retaining the seat is Job One. What you DO when you're in that seat is immaterial. The process is always more important than the outcome to "insiders." Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 12:47 PM (CJjw5) Exactly. To me, this was basically the thrust of Gabe's argument on the podcast. The most important thing is that elected Repubs keep their seats. Just because. Sure, the worst Repub is better than the best Donk. But, see, conservative base:GOP::AA voters ems is not the correct answer on the SATs. Keep on urinating on our heads, and we will not support you.

231 207 Jean, Yeah well that has as much to do with reality as our maintaining perfect balance on the debt for 100 days...

232 Put the Congess Critter's and their staffs BACK on Obamacare and get rid of their premium subsidies..

This legislature exempting itself from the law shit will be one of the things we correct in the new post-collapse reformation constitution.

There will a small handful of "unamendable" core principles.  This will be one of those.

233

@EoJ

 

The process be praised, all hail the process.

234 Watch me pull a prostitute out of a hat!!

235 Called Vitter's office. Trying to get it attached to energy bill only legislation before Oct 1. Mike Lee signatory but not Rubio or Cruz. One might ask why not -- Rubio no good staff answer - Cruz VM.

236 I ALSO GOT TURD SALADS!! TUUUUUURD SALADS TO GO WITH YOUR SHIIIIIIT SANDWICH. BUY ONE, GET A FREE PEE SLURPEE!!!

237

237 -

 

Ehem...  good looking  high school students. 

238 i'm waiting for obamacare to be implemented and parents sued for refusing to enable their adult children by adding them to their healthcare policy......

239 looking for a white guy in a tan military uniform with a beret (presumed Navy) with hand gun looking for a black guy in fatigues with long gun Join the club. Posted by: Sandra Fluke Spelunking is hazardous, I'm just sayin'... ...if you don't get a call back, it's because the cell reception is awful in there.

240 The Republican party could re-energize the base in #twoweeks.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 16, 2013 12:45 PM (gqgiP)

ISWYDT

241 Posted by: Brother Cavil, totes not GLaDOS at September 16, 2013 12:51 PM (naUcP)

It means anal sex (with lube) in Hindi.

242 oh wait! there's no such thing as a "healthcare" policy because the insurance DOESN'T GUARANTEE HEALTHCARE!!!!! hahahahhahaha let it fucking burn

243 ALSO, ICE CREAM WITH POO SAUCE!!! DEEEEE-LICIOUS!!!

244 The shutdown in the 90s failed according to conventional wisdom, therefore all shutdowns shall go badly for Republicans and must be avoided at all costs. By that logic, we should have surrendered to Germany after Kasserine Pass.

245

Ah.... Gabe Malor once more insists that fighting is counterproductive...

 

 

 

246 Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 16, 2013 12:50 PM (le5Zp) The bit with the sequester was so transparently false that only MSNBC could touch it. And that doesn't really count for anything, since that network would shill for Basher Assad if they thought it would get Democrats votes. Obama made a campaign promise to stop it multiple times. It was a self-inflicted wound, and the smarter talking heads at least knew when to back off the blame when it would hurt him. But if we get a GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN (!!!) it'll be full-court press. Especially because this totally wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Republicans and shit.

247 Posted by: Gabe's Shit Sandwich Cart at September 16, 2013 12:53 PM (fd0Pp)

That's really childish. Why don't you grow up and take this seriously.

I am embarrassed for you (and for me, because I laughed out loud).

248 @Gabe's Shit Sandwich Cart

Are you saying I can get a HOT shit sandwich and a turd salad?

Can I get crispy bacon and melty cheese on that?

249 Woah. That was supposed to be: But, see, conservative base:GOP :: AA voters : Dems is not the correct answer on the SATs. Keep on urinating on our heads, and we will not support you. Darn modicums!

250

While I want the IRS to go immolate itself, Obama's margin was fatter than that. Way fatter. This wasn't exactly a squeak-in.

 

Not to fuss too much, but IIRC, TFG's margin of victory was less  in '012   than in '08. Close elections don't require much fraud to succeed. Only 52% voted for him in 2008, so   that   was hardly a mandate  for the Prog/Com  agenda  we're currently enjoying,  good and hard.

251 No melty cheese, Royal, but there is 'gravy'.

252 This legislature exempting itself from the law shit will be one of the things we correct in the new post-collapse reformation constitution. There will a small handful of "unamendable" core principles. This will be one of those. Posted by: Purp at September 16, 2013 12:52 PM (9MLX+) I would like to think such a constitutional provision would be followed. Given recent (defined as last 75 years) history, I'm going with no.

253

Exactly. To me, this was basically the thrust of Gabe's argument on the podcast. The most important thing is that elected Repubs keep their seats. Just because.

 

-----------------------------

 

That  was my  whole point in  the last go-round:  Then what, Gabe? 

 

We have  the seats, NOW  what do you propose?

 

And I'm  sure the answer will be along the lines of   don't   rock the boat with conservative legislation  or attempts to shrink government  because God forbid, we might lose seats!

 

There's  an excuse for all seasons  as to why conservatives can't actually DO anything conservative.  But, elections!

254 I remember the shutdown in '95. It didn't affect us one bit or anyone we know. Look at the sequester today: O is taking credit for the deficit reduction it's causing!

All these parliamentary procedures had better lead somewhere, or the GOP is toast. Reid knew his trickery would give the Dems Obamacare, so he did it.

I follow politics regularly, and I can't figure out what the fuck Cantor is talking about. Reid will never vote on defunding Obamacare, and even if he did, very few Americans would even notice.

The GOP should be out giving speeches and putting ads on TV about their philosophy and how Obamacare is going to further ruin the country instead of these stupid votes. That is, if they still have a philosophy besides "where's mine?"

bTW lawdvd, who gave you the rebate for insurance? The feds, the carriers...?

255 Posted by: Gabe's Shit Sandwich Cart at September 16, 2013 12:53 PM (fd0Pp)


----

heh..... reading stuff like this why I keep coming here.....

256 Posted by: Romeo13 at September 16, 2013 12:55 PM (lZBBB)

Can we haz slap-fight?

257 But if we get a GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN (!!!) it'll be full-court press. Especially because this totally wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Republicans and shit. And if you weather it and people note their lives haven't changed, you win. The Government Shutdown is less interesting to Americans than the location of Miley Cyrus' tongue. That can be used to our advantage.

258 "188 .Lindsey Graham was part of the new guard, literally: he first came into the House from the 1994 elections

That was Phil Graham, Senator Texas and, if you ask Phil, the Smartest Man to Ever Get Elected To The Senate. A man with sooooo much charisma that, when Louisana decided to hell with Iowa, we are going first, Phil lost............to Pat Buchanan. Which is o.k., cause it was a hotly contested 3 man race between Phil, Pat and Alan Keyes!

Posted by: Mallamutt, RINO President for Life at September 16, 2013 12:37 PM (OWjjx)"

And that is a component of my low regard for Louisiana.  I seem to recall that a part of that primary that resonated with Louisiana voters was the charge that Phil Grahm had divorced his white wife for a Gook.  It is not out of the question that after losing that primary Grahm decided to spare his wife more of the same high tone political discourse with which Pat Buchanan has distinguished himself over the years.

259 262 Empire of Jeff,

Werll Jeff we then allow more of Ogabe's agenda to be enacted thereby aiding Conservatism...

WINNING!

Gabe is "cynical" about government....

no Gabe cynical is what I am you are "entwined" bud.

260 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 12:57 PM (CJjw5) Contrast that with the Dems who were willing to throw themselves to the woods and engage in all sorts of chicanery in order to pass the turd sandwich. I'm not saying we should be dishonest. We don't need to be. But at least the Dems know how to and are willing to fight.

261 I'd like to see a national strike against employer IRS withholding payments. Choke the organized crime aspect of the statists off at the point of origin. If there was enough participation there wouldn't be much that the Ruling Class could do. Let them try to live off the moochers' offerings for support.

262 SKYNET update:

‘Terminator’ polymer regenerates itself

http://is.gd/P71Ayw

263 I would like to think such a constitutional provision would be followed.

The citizen tribunals for congressional offenses and summary execution of offenders will tamp it down quite a bit.

264 There is only one solution to all this. If you are represented by a vichy republican, refuse to vote next year. Until the dem lites are purged from the party there's no point making any effort on any front.

265 Posted by: chique d'afrique, formerly Chelsea, now back to being an actual female at September 16, 2013 12:59 PM (r+7wo) Throw themselves to the *wolves.* Sigh. Perhaps coffee is intoxicating. Or perhaps I should proofread. One or the other.

266 251 PhxGrl,

Recall when Gabe wanted just one part of the pony?

Yeah real unhappy with Ogabecare that one is.

267 I'm not saying we should be dishonest. We don't need to be. But at least the Dems know how to and are willing to fight.

 

 

Posted by: chique d'afrique, formerly Chelsea, now back to being an actual female at September 16, 2013 12:59 PM (r+7wo)

 

--------------------------------

 

When  there's no hill you're willing to die  on,  expect the other side to take the fucking hill  every time. 

 

So  far, the only stand we have a consistent history of making  is in defense of the Second Amendment.  Probably  because that's one  issue that cuts across party lines.

268 Cynical expects the worst of people. Gabe is actually asking it.

269 I am not even going to say that the worst Republican is better than the best Democrat anymore. For example, I have competed in marksmanship in several places around the country, not just in Minnesota where I live. I've fired next to people who I know were Democrats and who I know would fight before they gave up their arms.
Unlike some Republicans. Take Richard Nixon, for example, who wanted a total ban on handguns.
(Btw, the E.P.A. which Nixon foisted on us, recently sent some of their SWAT team to a company in AK to check for clean water violations. About 70 entities of the Federal government have armed divisions, including the Department of Education.)

270 You want a winner - separate Obamacare so that you can include stronger language making the Congress and staff subject to it.  Include defunding everything Obama waived or delayed, delay the subsidies, and defund the marketing money.

271 Can I get crispy bacon and melty cheese on that? NO, BUT HOW ABOUT SOME BROWN SAUCE? I GOT A LOT BROWN SAUCE HERE, BIG BUCKETS OF BROWN SAUCE, ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE!!!

272 The citizen tribunals for congressional offenses and summary execution of offenders will tamp it down quite a bit.

Cut. Jib. Newsletter.

273 Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 16, 2013 12:59 PM (Ezq3m) Do you really want to make that comparison? Well, in all seriousness...even if you're wrong, it's better to go out with a bang having actually taken a stand instead of withering on the vine. Problem is, when you're taking a stand you need an articulate true believer on the horn ready to get the message out. Maybe...Ted Cruz? I have met a lot of somewhat urbane left-leaning persons who say they would consider voting Republican if the party was actually small-government. I actually tend to believe them since I can't say there's much difference (socon issues excluded) with a straight face.

274 Posted by: chique d'afrique, formerly Chelsea, now back to being an actual female at September 16, 2013 12:59 PM (r+7wo)

Because they know that they will be supported by the national organizations no matter what!

The Dems run a tight ship. Even their whips in congress are more effective. Nobody votes against the party to make a point, unless it is approved beforehand.

Contrast that with John McCain, who revels in sticking it to the Republican party, with the certainty that nothing will be done to him.

275 Keep up the great work, G.

276 Probably because that's one issue that cuts across party lines.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at September 16, 2013 01:02 PM (CJjw5)

Good point.

There are plenty of life-long Dems who will vote Republican if their reps support gun control. Kentucky and West Virginia come to mind.

277 Weasel Zippers ‏@weaselzippers 43s

Picture of D.C. Naval Yard ShooterÂ… http://shar.es/iIEVf

278 Picture of D.C. Naval Yard ShooterÂ… http://shar.es/iIEVf

Posted by: Jones in CO at September 16, 2013 01:08 PM (8sCoq)

Uh, which one is he?

279 Contrast that with the Dems who were willing to throw themselves to the woods and engage in all sorts of chicanery in order to pass the turd sandwich. /// Michelle Bachmann goes full retard, instant spotlight. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz-Wormtongue goes full retard, er...who is DWS again?

280 Well, in all seriousness...even if you're wrong, it's better to go out with a bang having actually taken a stand instead of withering on the vine. Problem is, when you're taking a stand you need an articulate true believer on the horn ready to get the message out. Maybe...Ted Cruz? I'm sure he's up for it. I don't know what the future holds. Nobody does. But at some point if you want to win, you need to roll the dice and take chances. I'd rather gamble and fail then retreat forever.

281 I'd like to see a national strike against employer IRS withholding payments.

Choke the organized crime aspect of the statists off at the point of origin.

If there was enough participation there wouldn't be much that the Ruling Class could do.

Let them try to live off the moochers' offerings for support.

Posted by: ontherocks

Yes, with a House Committee Chairman promising transactional immunity to anyone they go after, until the IRS is scoured from top to bottom.

282 Subsequently, during the debt-ceiling negotiations, House Republicans would trade a one-year delay in Obamacare — including its unpopular individual mandate — for a fiscally comparable easing of the sequester spending caps. --------- There is so much wrong here but let's just focus on this, which leads to the larger problem. How, exactly, do you expect the House to go about getting the Democrats to agree to this? When they come to them with this plan, and Harry Reid says "fuck you" then what? See, this is your problem. You've taken the only negotiating power we have off the table. You think that simply offering a reprieve from the bullshit sequester will tempt Democrats enough to agree to delay Obamacare. But why? Why wouldn't they just stand firm and say, "Nah, bro. We'll take a CR that ends the sequester and doesn't delay Obamacare, or we'll shutdown the government." It is at this point that the Republicans collectively freak-out, realizing they won't shut-down the government for any purpose at all, and cave. And the Democrats know this. And they have every reason to operate accordingly. They should demand everything, concede nothing, and expect to win. And they will. You see, when you continue to openly and regularly say that shutting down the government is an awful idea, the opposition, who, despite what you may think, CAN READ, takes note. And they now know you have no leverage whatsoever. And they can demand the moon and the stars. And they should. This entire time Republicans have been operating from a position of weakness largely due to their (and people like Gabe) inability to understand negotiation. Even if you don't want to shut-down the government, when it's your Ace in the hole, YOU DONT LET THE OTHER SIDE KNOW THAT! And Gabe still hasn't managed to figure this out. So, to clear this up, here is how this goes. Cantor: In this C.R. we will agree to lighten the sequester cuts if you agree to delay Obamacare Reid: Nah. You'll agree to lighten the sequester and there will be no delay. Cantor: No, that won't happen. We aren't getting anything in return. Reid: Then I guess the government is shutting down. Cantor: OH WAIT!!CAN'T DO THAT!!LET'S DEAL!!

283 as the caption says, on the left

284 AND REMEMBER, THE SHIT IN MY SHIT SANDWICHES COMES WITH EXTRA CORN KERNELS, SO IT'S REAL HEALTHY FOR YOU!!

285 289 Bevel L,

Bevel Gabe is insisting on destroying the GOP with more "go along to get along"...

it's gonna be a pleasure.

286 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 16, 2013 01:05 PM (gqgiP) Hmm, that's actually a pretty good point. We couldn't even get Todd Akin to resign, and he might as well have hopped from the pages of a Stephen King novel.

287

Contrast that with John McCain, who revels in sticking it to the Republican party, with the certainty that nothing will be done to him.

 

Imagine if we had an RNC chairman who would call McStain up when he shot off his mouth - "Hey, dickmunch, care to revise your remarks?  Because I'm sitting on five hundred thousand big ones ready to go to EoJ - you know, the fellow who's talking about primarying you?  Now, why don't you call back those cameras and tell them you were having a senior moment, or the only money you're going to get for a campaign is by selling 'Whales Gone Wild' videos of Meggy McJugs."

288 When there's no hill you're willing to die on, expect the other side to take the fucking hill every time. So far, the only stand we have a consistent history of making is in defense of the Second Amendment. Probably because that's one issue that cuts across party lines. ---------- This is what boggles the mind when it comes to Gabe. He does not grasp this. When the other side knows that you aren't actually willing to pull the trigger (because you've told them) WHY IN THE FUCK SHOULD THEY EVER NEGOTIATE WITH YOU? You have nothing to offer them, nothing to scare them with.

289 Posted by: Rich at September 16, 2013 01:13 PM (X3jCZ) To be fair... Gabe's argument is that in the process of issuing the "fuck you," Democrats will become a little more unpopular.

290 Posted by: Rich at September 16, 2013 01:13 PM (X3jCZ)

Honestly, a bunch of us commenters were making this exact point back in the 2010(?) debt ceiling debacle, when the Repubs made it known before any "debates" or "talks" that *not* raising the debt ceiling was out of the question.

We rightly said the Rs were idiots for doing this, and I remember some of the cobs condescending to us on this.

291 Gabe's argument is that in the process of issuing the "fuck you," Democrats will become a little more unpopular. -------- Worked awesomely in 2012, didn't it? How many times had they already voted on not defunding Obamacare? Public really made them pay.

292 bTW lawdvd, who gave you the rebate for insurance? The feds, the carriers...? Posted by: PJ at September 16, 2013 12:58 PM (ZWaLo) Sorry for the late reply; actually trying to work today. $ came from my carrier.

293 Picture of D.C. Naval Yard ShooterÂ…

Subsequently retracted.

294 Such a horrible article. 

So much win in the comments.

Here's a thought. 
If the Republican Party had actually shrunk the size and reach of government when they had the Presidency and both houses of Congress (instead of expanding it!) they *might* have a bit of credibility.
But they didn't.
And they don't.

But serious, you guys, once Jeb Bush or Chris Chistie becomes President...

295 Both options suck. The Gabe/Cantor option sucks more. Because it does nothing. Except: (1) Force the Senate, who already voted to pass Obamacare in the first place, to vote for Obamacare again. Big deal. Who cares. (2) Get's the GOP on record supporting Obamacare by voting to fund it. Way to go Team GOP!

296 Not interested in either of Avik Roy's scenarios. We knew Mitt Romney was not really going to repeal ACA.

297 I just think conservatives don't actually expect the establishment Republican types to actually follow through. They expect them to cave on negotiations, and doing that just makes ObamaCare an albatross around the neck of the party going into the mid-term elections next year, regardless of how unpopular it is.

298 "WHY IN THE FUCK SHOULD THEY EVER NEGOTIATE WITH YOU?" And they made it clear they wouldn't. Obama will not give an inch on his signature legislation unless you shut down the government. The Dems would do this. They did it in Wisconsin. Get tough or STFU.

299 trying to defund Obamacare trumps government shutdown as an election issue. Forcing Democrats to go on record supporting Obamacare gives ammunition to those who run against Democrats. However, I think the GOP doesn't want to go on record either and the government shutdown bogeyman is their excuse to avoid the issue.

300

Gabriel, you are thinking about it too hard.

 

Cantor is full of political calculations.  The base and frankly the american people are sick of this shit.

 

Shut the fucker down and take a stand.  On principle for fuck's sake.  It worked on guns.  It will work here.

 

I think Cantor is trying to work with a framework that he thinks he's in.  Fuck the framework.  Stop playing the game ON THEIR FUCKING FIELD.

301 Give Obama exactly what he wants on the CR, justinclude a provision that ALL elected officials and all government employees be required to purchase their insurance from the exchanges, "as soon as Obamacare is fully implemented," and watch the minnows scatter.

302 I notice nobody ever came up with a reason why the Senate would bother to vote on the second resolution in Cantor's plan. It seems to me they would just pass the CR with all the funding and ignore the amending resolution.

The braniacs might need to think this through some more.

303 They need to quit saying that this is the last chance to kill the ACA. If/when it fails, those words will add to the inevitability of the law and will be used by the MSM to break morale even more.

304 Read The Hill: Conservatives Say Obama Will Blink. Fucking idiots. Even when he said he was bluffing, they still folded. Who do they think they're fooling?

305 Nice post. Some thoughts: 1) shock jocks profit when their side loses - if you want to take your marching orders from entertainers who cash in when you lose, go ahead sucker 2) If you want intellectual purity then go sit in a room by yourself because that is the only way to achieve it ... 3) "Bbbbut ... RINO" is the thrust of most of the counterpoints - blood thirsty invective and scatology is not an appealing argument ... 4) "politics are dirty therefore we should not engage because Principle!!!!!" - that is surrender - see #2 Let the vitriol rain ...

306 Everyone I know who has given up on America and doing anything about our current downspiral has done so because they believe Republicans are sell-outs who have no spine.

307 Joe, would you like to point out where the Republicans have done anything about Obamacare other than passing meaningless resolutions? 

Several people have offered ideas beyond the standard Republican surrender.  Cantor's idea is more of the same.  No one, including Gabe, has pointed out where the Senate will have to vote on the amended CR.  So the Senate will pass the first CR and ignore the amended one.  So, once again meaningless gesture.  It's not even good politics. 

Good politics would be something like the House passing the CR with full funding for Obamacare with the requirement that all waivers are revoked not to be reissued, all gov't employees get to go to the exchanges, and all dates in the law must be followed without exception.  Hmmm, that might cause some chaos in Democrat ranks.  Or even the existing plan of funding all of the gov't except for Obamacare can be good politics.

So Joe, beyond burning straw men, what is your plan?  Because as is pointed out above, there isn't a situation that leads to 60 Republican votes in the Senate anytime soon.  Even if we get 60 McTraitor will stab us in the back.

308 The GOP isn't just the stupid party. It's the useless party, the pussy party, they liar's party, the delusional party, and the works for the other side to save their own ass in the short term party. Soon it will be the dead and forgotten party. Because it serves a "base" of Brooks and Malors and no one else.

309 Didn't want to die on a hill trying to get a firing point advantage. Crawled into shallow ditch that offered no cover instead and died there trying to dig it deeper. But the rock cried out 'no hiding place'. Because smart. Like a coward.

310

Well, first step would be for us to stop fragging each other, so there's that ...

 

Although I personally would be happy to see a shutdown, I do believe that could likely cost us the house in '16, so that doesn't seem like a winning strategy.  We are already getting skewered with the waste of time symbolic votes, and in the current environment, there is no way the low info type voters won't pin the starving children and old folks on us, regardless of the reality of the scenario.

 

I think our best bet for keeping the house and advancing in the senate in the midterms is to make the public feel the pain of what is coming - and that means a short term retreat today for the hope of a stronger position tomorrow.  It also means enforcing the letter of the bad law, so that they can be held accountable - make them play by their rules.  I think your 3rd paragraph is spot on - eliminate the waivers and force the mandates and we'll see the dems scurry for cover, but it might already be too late for that, since open enrollment 2014 has already begun.  I think the tactic described by this Cantor plan also has some validity, as we need some kind of leverage to enter reconciliation with the Senate.  Fund everything but ACA, with ACA funding contingent on enforcing mandates and eliminating waivers - at least that's something.  We know the law was designed to fail, so, lets push that ...

 

As far as healthcare goes, I think the simple answer would've been (and still could be) to eliminate the tax benefit to the employers and give it back to the people, with open markets across state lines.  I think we would get a more rational market that way.   I believe mandates are corporate welfare, and the result is politicization of healthcare, which is not something we want.  There is a reason why Colorado dropped the PIP mandate from auto insurance.  Government mandated insurance is a statists dream and an individual's nightmare, and I guess we are going to have to go through that to get people to wake up.  I do not think that it cannot be undone, as it is most likely going to be horrible for most people, and you only need 51%.

 

As far as the R party goes, I think it's time to move in the L direction, with an emphasis on civil liberties - I think the movement is growing and is attractive to even the young who see that the crushing of individualism is a bad thing.  To me, this means ditching some strongly held and highly principled SOCON positions, and that will get me fragged, but they have proven to be fickle and cannot be counted on to support the party first.  The wilderness is more attractive to them as withholding their votes for purity, thereby allowing their opponents to win, is seen as a better outcome for some reason.  I do loves me some strawmen ...