March 04, 2013
— Ace Several people including ArthurK. are recommending The Law, by Bastiat. I'm putting that on the list because they used the magic word ("short").
I got a recommendation from Jonah Goldberg for Eric Voegelin. He's the guy, it turns out, who coined the phrase "immanentize the eschaton." He mentioned the book to me because I dropped an aphorism -- "God save us from those without a god but bursting at the seams with Religion" -- and thought it sounded like Voegelin. I'm reading his Science, Politics, and Gnosticism on Kindle.
I'm only like 30 pages in so I can't review it. I can say it has a mindblowing premise.
First, I have to explain Gnosticism. Gnosticism is the belief that the world was not created by God at all, but by an imperfect, lesser being who may actually be evil, and might even be Satan. Gnosticism holds that the material world we live in a false world, a world of lies created by either an incompetent or a demon, and that escape can only be had by gnosis, "enlightenment" (though I don't think that's a spot-on translation), which will free people from this Devil's world to the real world we faintly remember having been cast out of.
Gnostic teachings claim that we are exiles in this false world, castaways who drifted up on the shores of a hateful and alien island.
By the way, how wild is that? It's like science fiction. What a premise.
Voegelin claims that gnostic though has remained with us from the 2nd century when it was born, and I don't mean "sort of remained with us," or echoed with us, I mean he thinks it really remained a belief system into the modern age, and that Gnostic belief spawned all sorts of totalizing political movements which disdain the real world in favor of theory and party doctrine, such as Naziism and Communism. I think, again -- and this is wild, I have no idea if he can prove such a thing as I'm only 30 pages in -- he is not saying that Naziism and Communism were born out of an echo of Gnosticism or Gnostic-like thought, but out of genuine, real Gnostic religion/cosmology.
I have strong doubts that such a wild premise could ever be proved -- I think he'll strain to even establish it -- but it certainly is a wild enough premise that I want to see where he goes with it.
So that's what I'm reading; what's on your list, as far as this sort of book?
Posted by: Ace at
01:48 PM
| Comments (325)
Post contains 437 words, total size 2 kb.
Posted by: John W. at March 04, 2013 01:51 PM (K7KaF)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 01:51 PM (LCRYB)
And, yes, that's a pretty good description of what they believe.
And, yes, I can see how a theological thought based on the idea of the Perfectibility of Man would lead to political philosophies also based on the idea of the Perfectibility of Man.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at March 04, 2013 01:52 PM (xN73L)
'Cause I did not get that part about the Gnostics at all.
Posted by: RoyalOil at March 04, 2013 01:53 PM (VjL9S)
"it means, essentially, attempt to call forth this Other World (in its utopian perfection) in our own."
"Immantize I think means make real; and I think eschaton refers to a higher plane or reality."
Second, I'm going to figure out what the explanation means.
Posted by: jwest at March 04, 2013 01:53 PM (u2a4R)
First Things, by Hadley Arkes. Yes, it inspired the magazine-web site.
Prof. Arkes starts with nothing but the fact that you and I are sentient beings capable of communicating, then he builds a Judeo-Christian moral framework taking only logical steps from zero.
Pretty good for understanding why we believe what we believe.
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at March 04, 2013 01:53 PM (2Oas0)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at March 04, 2013 01:54 PM (xN73L)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 01:54 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at March 04, 2013 01:54 PM (2Oas0)
Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 04, 2013 01:54 PM (GVxQo)
Posted by: John W. at March 04, 2013 01:54 PM (K7KaF)
It is fantastic for one thing -- equating communism and Nazism as tyranny.
The rest? I'm not sure.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 04, 2013 01:55 PM (GsoHv)
I don't think there's really much practical difference between gnosticism and the idea that man is imperfectible, i.e. the conservative viewpoint. Either way, we have to design systems that prevent us from acting on our own worst impulses. Man is permanently bent coming out of the womb, and must be channeled, without providing to much power to the channelers. That's no small task.
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 01:55 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at March 04, 2013 01:55 PM (FzhYM)
Posted by: Boxy Brown at March 04, 2013 01:56 PM (OgpUV)
Posted by: Keiras_lip_balm at March 04, 2013 01:56 PM (XboQD)
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 01:56 PM (R18D0)
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at March 04, 2013 01:56 PM (Ec6wH)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 01:56 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 05:54 PM (LCRYB)
With Penny contractually obligated to go topless......
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (GsoHv)
Pretentious philosophy major, please.
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Miss Cleo consulting her Tarot Power Deck at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (edr3f)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (QupBk)
Read Dostoevsky's entire works.
Starting with Notes from Underground and going forward.
Perfect perfect perfect transition from radical/leftist to reactionary/conservative.
And he has the best quote out there, which describes the leftist attack on our culture and institutions. I'll find it one of these days and post it on here. I mean it really is the fucking best.
I have read a lot of books, and Fyodor is by far the best author I have ever read. By far. His biographer, Frank Joseph, died today. I am ordering his 5 piece biographical works this evening and look forward to reading it.
Posted by: Prescient11 at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (tVTLU)
Ummm... Gnosticism says exactly the opposite: that man is perfectible, and that only when you have reached Perfection can you ascend to the Higher Plain (or resume or journey, or whatever).
That's why it was a Heresy- it suggested that Jesus was not our Divine Savior, Redeeming us by His Blood, but simply an "example of the new man," and that if we could emulate his example perfectly, we would be raised to Heaven, too.
It was the Gnostics to whom John was referring when he used the term "Anti-Christ" in the 1 John.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at March 04, 2013 01:57 PM (xN73L)
Economics: http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN.html
Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations
Liberty: http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Locke/second/second-frame.html
Locke's Second Treatise on Government
Chinese Thoughts on Power http://threekingdoms.com/
Romance of the Three Kingdoms by Luo GuanZhong
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 01:58 PM (LRFds)
Ha ha.
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 04, 2013 01:58 PM (w+Dvf)
==========
"THAT SENTENCE HAD TOO MANY SYLLABLES. APOLOGIZE!" (one of the funnier lines from Borderlands 2).
Posted by: RoyalOil at March 04, 2013 01:58 PM (VjL9S)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 04, 2013 01:58 PM (w+Dvf)
Posted by: ff at March 04, 2013 01:59 PM (/FxuJ)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at March 04, 2013 01:59 PM (AbHls)
Posted by: Beagle at March 04, 2013 01:59 PM (GsBoV)
These daze I'm reading The Metaphysical Club.
Pool Night is on so I am priming the pump.
Posted by: sTevo at March 04, 2013 01:59 PM (VMcEw)
I am rereading it because I sent a copy to my terminally-stupid-but-graduating-college-anyway niece.
Apparently they forgot to teach anything about totalitarianism in college
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 04, 2013 02:00 PM (GsoHv)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 02:00 PM (LCRYB)
With Penny contractually obligated to go topless......
There were plenty of episodes, especially the earlier ones, where she was....nipping.
Also, the episode where the friends route an internet signal around the world to turn on a lamp....bs. They should had checked that before including it in the script.
Posted by: Sticky Wicket at March 04, 2013 02:00 PM (KESFj)
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:00 PM (gmeXX)
- Pvt. Joe Bowers
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at March 04, 2013 02:00 PM (Ipj15)
Posted by: moviegique at March 04, 2013 02:00 PM (kNN2d)
To a degree, the Cathars and Gnostics sorta got a bad rap but as they say Popin' ain't easy
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:01 PM (LRFds)
Really.
Posted by: Boxy Brown at March 04, 2013 05:56 PM (OgpUV)
This.
Oh, philosophy. Can't go wrong with the classics; Plato, Aristotle, Lucritius, Marcus Arelius.
Plato's Republic is a pretty good primer on what not to do. Almost got him killed when he tried it in practice.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 04, 2013 02:01 PM (t06LC)
Posted by: moviegique at March 04, 2013 02:01 PM (kNN2d)
- Pvt. Joe Bowers Posted by: weft cut-loop
I admire the twist of that fellow's pucker.
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:02 PM (R18D0)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 04, 2013 02:02 PM (QupBk)
24 Am already starting to fall away from the Catholic faith without the Pope
---------
Nobody told me the Pope was being sequestered. Does Maxine Waters know about this?
Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at March 04, 2013 02:02 PM (xGZ+b)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 04, 2013 02:02 PM (Yvlb0)
Posted by: Mandrill Redass at March 04, 2013 02:02 PM (eEeRy)
Posted by: that tedious and now confused guy at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (r5w1L)
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (GXS3C)
Ummm... Gnosticism says exactly the opposite: that man is perfectible, and that only when you have reached Perfection can you ascend to the Higher Plain (or resume or journey, or whatever).
Well, I think that you refer to man after he is enlightened. I was talking about man in his natural state. OTOH, maybe it's just the post-work liquor talking.
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (M2aUn)
Grunt Padre by Fr. D. Mode
This is the amazing story of Maryknoll priest and Chaplain Vincent Capodanno. Fr C was nicknamed the Grunt Padre by the USMC's he ministered to in VierNam. He served with 5th and 7th regiments. The grunts loved him. He extended his tour. He wanted to by with HIS grunts. He went out on missions, served at the hospital and radiated Christ.
He was killed sheltering a medic in '68. Winner of the MoH, 3 Purple Hearts, and a Bronze star.
His cause has been taken up by the Church. He has recieved the "Servant of God" designation as a first step to canonization and sainthood.
Why is this a good book?
Looking for extraordinary examples of humanity and courage? Look no further. Fr Capodanno gave his life for his brothers as Christ did for you and I.
Posted by: anonCatholic at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (kduZC)
I do believe there was a show on EWTN called "Saints Alive" in which they had a visiting St. Athanasius make the same comparison that Voegelin makes.
Posted by: They Can't Have My French Fries at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (MDr17)
Four lines.
Four. Lines.
Four.
You had to cut and paste for four lines.
Barrel. And you don't get the snorkel.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at March 04, 2013 02:03 PM (xN73L)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at March 04, 2013 02:04 PM (QupBk)
Pretty much, the shell is to be held in stoic existence in the pursuit of the spiritual.
Kind of like prototype Quakers...
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:04 PM (LRFds)
The only limits on ones actions are what the potential costs may be compared to the reward.
Since costs can most times be deferred and rewards can become very tempting, we have groups and individuals that step way beyond the norms of behavior and good sense into a very scary world indeed.
I blame Empire of Jeff.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:04 PM (qyv02)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:04 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at March 04, 2013 02:04 PM (Ec6wH)
Posted by: JDTAY at March 04, 2013 02:05 PM (a0nis)
I almost forgot Augustine (famous for his Jus Bellum theory and of course for being a proud man whore) and Aquinas. Both instrumental to western civ.
For the enlighenment where conservative thought begins, the aforementioned Bastitat (That which is seen) and Locke (see Treatise on Government) are excellent.
Avoid germans and postmodernism. Its a waste.
Posted by: Jollyroger at March 04, 2013 02:05 PM (t06LC)
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:05 PM (R18D0)
I do believe there was a show on EWTN called "Saints Alive" in which they had a visiting St. Athanasius make the same comparison that Voegelin makes.
Posted by: They Can't Have My French Fries at March 04, 2013 06:03 PM (MDr17)
You left out the part about St. Nicholas (i.e. Santa Claus) socking Arius in the face during the Council of Nicea. True story.
Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at March 04, 2013 02:05 PM (aozUR)
Velvet Monkeywrench by John Muir (the guy who wrote the VW repair manuals for idiots). Its an interesting speculative social/political model for what might be a viable post collapse alternative society. AFAIK, nobody has tried his scheme in the past. Might be hard to find...Muir Publications seems to have gone into decline since he died.
Posted by: @PurpAv at March 04, 2013 02:06 PM (/gHaE)
On philosophy:
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Kuhn is very instructive. It essentially shows us that the physical sciences shall always be changing, no matter how advanced our understanding of the "natural" world is.
It has long been my thought that our understanding of physics, chemistry, physical existence will ALWAYS be limited because it is our imperfect minds trying to understand God's works.
In contrast, mathematics can be fully understood by humans because it is an artificial construct created within our own understanding.
So while Einstein's theory of relativity is slowly falling apart, A squared + B squared = C squared. And it always will.
Posted by: Prescient11 at March 04, 2013 02:06 PM (tVTLU)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 02:06 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:06 PM (GXS3C)
After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre. I know I've probably said it about a 1000 times but it's worth it in my opinion.
Very approachable summary of everything that's wrong with the enlightenment 
. (MacIntyre gets into the weeds a bit, but nothing Wikipedia can't straighten out if you care.)
Also the fictional book A Canticle for Leibowitz that MacIntyre references in chapter 1 is a great companion to it.
I also have been reading some Rawls, not because I think I'll agree with him, but because his language has become pervasive, so I need to know it to know the state of the field.
Posted by: tsrblke at March 04, 2013 02:07 PM (GaqMa)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 04, 2013 02:07 PM (M2aUn)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:07 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: JDTAY at March 04, 2013 02:07 PM (a0nis)
Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at March 04, 2013 06:05 PM (aozUR)
Ah yes, I forgot about that! That is a true story, and an awesome one.
Posted by: They Can't Have My French Fries at March 04, 2013 02:07 PM (MDr17)
JDTay, I'm going to try what Weigel recommends:
The Gospel reveals that there is a perfect God, not was, He is. His purpose is not for me to know, but the Gospel reveals that he sent His Son to the world to redeem man from man's sins.
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:08 PM (gmeXX)
Hard to get through it after Chris Kyle's murder.
Reading Lincoln Child's "The Third Gate." Enjoy the occasional creepy thriller, and Child is a master.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at March 04, 2013 02:08 PM (UOM48)
Gnosticism hold the physical cheaply compared to the spiritual and considers "perfection" as such to be the shedding of the mortal coil to be salvation...
You are either aware or you aren't and creation is a trapped place made by a false god and prevents us from being with the creator God...
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:08 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Tsar Nicholas II at March 04, 2013 02:08 PM (pmsMR)
Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at March 04, 2013 02:08 PM (J6kXj)
Posted by: Beagle at March 04, 2013 02:08 PM (GsBoV)
You say Gnostics, I say Ganostics!
I used to do Ganostics five or six times a week. That shit will stretch out your glutteal regions more effectively than an Hispanic pool boy.
Posted by: Bawney's Frank at March 04, 2013 02:09 PM (KESFj)
Yup pretty much nails it. I'm wary of "modern Gnostics" being held as the historical Gnostics but other than that bang on.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:09 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: @PurpAv at March 04, 2013 02:09 PM (/gHaE)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Dang, blowing bubbles out of a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (R18D0)
Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (Rcoex)
Posted by: MikeJ at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (Us4M2)
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (GXS3C)
So Zeus, Apollo, and Athenia may be making a comeback.
Posted by: WalrusRex at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (Hx5uv)
It's the sublime Englishman in my bloodline old boy....
Hug a mason that is likely all that's left of the Catharic faith.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (LRFds)
Good news, Ace! All gaffes have been humbled into meaninglessness by the mega-gaffe made by Mike Duffy of TIME on Chris Matthews' show Sunday.
In the august company of not only Matthews but Dan Rather, Duffy hypothesized that in response to a sequester-driven meltdown of the US transportation systems, Obama might take executive action, saying "I'm the Commander in Chief and it's up to me to make sure the trains run on time and the flights are on schedule!"
The best part is that nobody batted an eye! A gaffe so stupefying in its ignorance that it should have been accompanied by a symphony orchestra plying "The Ride of the Valkyries", instead went completely unnoticed by any of these intellectual titans!
I suggested in the comments there that in contrast to these self-appointed elites, most Tea Partiers would probably be well aware of what happened to the last guy who "made the trains run on time".
Posted by: Ray Van Dune at March 04, 2013 02:10 PM (qIFL7)
Niedermeyer's Dead Equine?
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (6TB1Z)
stop pasting direct.
paste into a plain word processor and then paste here.
3rd times the charm.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (qyv02)
Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (J6kXj)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (Yvlb0)
Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (xGZ+b)
Posted by: @PurpAv at March 04, 2013 06:09 PM (/gHaE)
Nixon more than Kissinger.
Kissinger's foreign policy was based primarily on how smart he thought he could make people think he was.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (GsoHv)
Posted by: huerfano at March 04, 2013 02:11 PM (bAGA/)
it's as old as time and why they cannot be beaten using conventional means...the modern "liberal" is engaged in some secular exercise of faith based instincts.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (GXS3C)
Posted by: JDTAY at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (a0nis)
Posted by: Mandrill Redass at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (eEeRy)
Posted by: James at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (IbRel)
109 Obama might take executive action, saying "I'm the Commander in Chief and it's up to me to make sure the trains run on time and the flights are on schedule!"
--------------
OK, I'm back to calling him Il Douche.
Posted by: Assault Citizen Anachronda at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (xGZ+b)
Or just type the 19 words directly into the comments box!
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 04, 2013 02:12 PM (GsoHv)
Posted by: Opus An Arcus at March 04, 2013 02:13 PM (a9IsA)
Posted by: beach reader at March 04, 2013 02:13 PM (XYSwB)
dealing with gnosticism. One prominent example (not the first) was
something called Arianism (after a guy named Arius, not, well, you know)
in the 4th century AD. St. Athanasius of Alexandria is known for
opposing this form of gnosticism. Bishop Iraneus of Lyons made a stink
about it a century or two earlier.
It's easy to mock medieval and earlier folks for arguing so much about pin-dancing angels, but really, can you imagine such a conversation today? Props to those guys for caring about something, anything, that much.
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 02:13 PM (6TB1Z)
"The Spirit of The Laws" by Baron de Montesque
"Reflections on the Failure of Socialism" by Max Eastman
"Our Enemy, The State" by Albert Jay Nock
"The Man Versus The State" by Herbert Spencer
"A Conflict of Visions" by Thomas Sowell
Posted by: Norman Bean at March 04, 2013 02:13 PM (sTS/8)
Take the beating. It hurts us more than it hurts you.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 04, 2013 02:14 PM (GsoHv)
Posted by: Arbalest at March 04, 2013 02:14 PM (edr3f)
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:14 PM (R18D0)
***
I thought you meant NYT God, the God of the Holy Abortion.
Posted by: WalrusRex at March 04, 2013 02:14 PM (Hx5uv)
Posted by: 80sBaby at March 04, 2013 02:15 PM (YjDyJ)
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 04, 2013 02:15 PM (Yvlb0)
In the august company of not only Matthews but Dan Rather, Duffy hypothesized that in response to a sequester-driven meltdown of the US transportation systems, Obama might take executive action, saying "I'm the Commander in Chief and it's up to me to make sure the trains run on time and the flights are on schedule!"
----
Didn't someone here once say that all liberals dream of being Michael Douglas in teh American President, standing up and saying I am the President.
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:15 PM (gmeXX)
Posted by: BlackOrchid-StillMissingDagny at March 04, 2013 02:15 PM (J6kXj)
How's that for some egghead philosophy.
Posted by: lowandslow at March 04, 2013 02:16 PM (7Nq2G)
Posted by: Some Asshole at March 04, 2013 02:16 PM (nAAhC)
Posted by: @PurpAv at March 04, 2013 02:17 PM (/gHaE)
-------------------------------
Great book. Hoffer nailed it.
Posted by: Norman Bean at March 04, 2013 02:17 PM (sTS/8)
This is obvious, but THE FEDERALIST PAPERS is a somewhat uneven, but mostly outstanding and very readable collection of political essays. As brilliant and wise as anything I've ever read on the subject of politics.
The only obvious thing they got wrong was designating the judiciary "the least dangerous branch," as noted in the title of the famous book by Alexander Bickel (which I have not read).
Posted by: shoeless at March 04, 2013 02:17 PM (dY+4R)
Posted by: @PurpAv at March 04, 2013 02:18 PM (/gHaE)
Have you read much GK Chesterton? He writes a lot that could be considered theological, so might not interest you, but there is a lot that he writes that is more in the realm of philosophy, too.
Posted by: dan-O at March 04, 2013 02:18 PM (HIjpI)
Anyway, that's why I stick to good old fashioned paper over electronic bits and lurk here rather than commenting.
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:18 PM (GXS3C)
You want to know WHY?
Because. THAT'S WHY!!!
Seriously the formatting codes to not play well with the blog code.
so just play along and when you copy something from somewhere else, paste it into notepad then copy THAT and paste into the comment box.
Or click the icon at the top of the comment tool bar <> which will allow you to directly remove all the formatting codes hit apply and then ok and you will have your pithy comment ready to be formatted by the sophisticated and modern means of spaces and returns.
Okay?
I SAID: OKAY?
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:18 PM (qyv02)
Gnosticism hold the physical cheaply compared to the spiritual and considers "perfection" as such to be the shedding of the mortal coil to be salvation...
You are either aware or you aren't and creation is a trapped place made by a false god and prevents us from being with the creator God...
Dude. Nicely put.
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 02:18 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:18 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Spiro Agnew at March 04, 2013 02:19 PM (e8kgV)
-------------------------
Well, yeah. That and de Tocqueville. Classics, if'n you wanna wade through the old-timey, dead white guy language...
Posted by: Norman Bean at March 04, 2013 02:19 PM (sTS/8)
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:19 PM (GXS3C)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 04, 2013 02:19 PM (M2aUn)
To understand context try:
http://www.constitution.org/afp/afp.htm
the Anti-federalist Papers
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:19 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: David Metis at March 04, 2013 02:20 PM (MRyPF)
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:20 PM (R18D0)
Point made.
In the barrel. both of you.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:20 PM (qyv02)
Thanks I had to analyze the faith pretty hard when I renounced back in high school to resume my devotion.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:20 PM (LRFds)
Recall that Greeks as pagans got themselves to Sicily and Marseilles in the west, Cyrene and northern Egypt to the south, northern India to the east. Greeks as Christians have retracted back to Greece.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 02:20 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: Dr Spank at March 04, 2013 02:21 PM (w+Dvf)
Posted by: esch at March 04, 2013 02:21 PM (JrttG)
Gives insight into sexual "freedom" as a method of control over society from the French Revolution to modern times. The author may have some biases but the basic premise of his research is accurate. During the French Revolution some of the philosophers and revolutionary elite made the observation that watching nekkid women is a great way of keeping men occupied and in general they will vote for politicians that keep giving them nekkid women to look at, so to speak. one connection to modern USA is the portrayal of Larry Flint as some type of hero (i.e. pron = freedom=a positive value) its a huge book but very interesting
Posted by: Kilo at March 04, 2013 02:21 PM (QCWkv)
Posted by: Avenging Disco Godfather at March 04, 2013 02:21 PM (edr3f)
The only obvious thing they got wrong was designating the judiciary "the least dangerous branch," as noted in the title of the famous book by Alexander Bickel (which I have not read).
----
I don't know if that is true. For most of our history they were. Arguably, the judiciary's power only increased after profound structural changes were made to the Constitution and only at the behest of one of the other branches. The executive wanted a stronger judiciary because the stronger judiciary meant he was stronger.
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:22 PM (gmeXX)
There you go. Making assumptions again.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:22 PM (qyv02)
Posted by: Redleg at March 04, 2013 02:22 PM (GXS3C)
1. The Republic - Plato
2. Works of Martin Luther - Martin Luther
3. The Social Contract - Rousseau
4. Beyond Good and Evil - Nietzsche
5. Being and Time - Heidegger
6. Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus - Wittgenstein
7. The Archeology of Knowledge - Foucault
If you want to go lighter and from a fiction standpoint, there's Sophie's World - Jostein Gaarder; The Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum - Umberto Eco; In Search of Lost Time - Proust; State of Fear - Michael Crichton; The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - Robert Heinlein and House of Leaves - Mark Danielewski.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Totes waiting until after March Madness. at March 04, 2013 02:22 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Saar at March 04, 2013 02:22 PM (ryT1J)
Posted by: Tom Servo at March 04, 2013 02:23 PM (hTDbY)
Posted by: Xander Crews at March 04, 2013 02:23 PM (NPqnO)
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo
I though she was hot dancing in that bikini on Laugh-In.
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:23 PM (R18D0)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:24 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: delmar at March 04, 2013 02:24 PM (tkP0O)
The other one is "What is Marriage? Man and Woman a Defense" by Girgis, Anderson & George.
Posted by: Iblis at March 04, 2013 02:24 PM (9221z)
The jeans guy, right?
Posted by: Dang, smoking a pipe in a soft leather chair at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (R18D0)
Posted by: Ed Gein at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (QF8uk)
from being with the creator God...
Dude. Nicely put.
----------
And directly points to the Garden and the original heresy - "Did God really say?"
"Why shouldn't you be just like Him? You can, you know. Acquire the knowledge that He is keeping from you, and you can be like God. In this way, you yourself can decide what is good, and what is evil. Choose for yourself. Become God in your own realm."
As Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun. It's all the same old lie.
Posted by: mama winger at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (P6QsQ)
Read the comment.
DON'T copy into WORD. Copy into NOTEPAD. (plain text editor. NO formatting codes. Word has formatting codes. that's what shows up in the comment and makes it 2 screens long)
Repeat after me: NOTEPAD. NOT WORD NOT WORDPAD.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (qyv02)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (M2aUn)
The other one is "What is Marriage? Man and Woman a Defense" by Girgis, Anderson George.
----
Very good interview on NRO today.
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (gmeXX)
Upon the recent advice of a co-blogger whose name I do not remember, I read The Master and Margarita, a shortish novel I had never heard of, but was so happy to find out about here (6 weeks ago?).
Russian literature might be the most potent weapon against Leftist thought, but alas that requires a non-Leftist culture which takes literature seriously.
Non-leftists think the low information voter is what is important.
What is needed is for non-Leftist culture to advocate culturally to the high information voter, and to the high-information-capable voter.
The Master and Margarita should be part of the not-to-be discussion in our culture.
On a completely separate note, it is one of those books which I will read again and probably again.
Posted by: Tonawanda at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (GeFHE)
Posted by: Porkkky at March 04, 2013 02:25 PM (lSzZO)
EoJ having a dick to fall off.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:26 PM (qyv02)
Posted by: birdwatcher at March 04, 2013 02:26 PM (39IHH)
The Constitution of the United States of America
The Federalist Papers
Patriarch
A Bright and Shining Lie
Fountainhead
Art of War
The Conservative Mind
The Road to Serfdom
The Conscience of a Conservative
1984
The Old Man and the Sea
Posted by: Kaptain Amerika at March 04, 2013 02:26 PM (a0o+l)
ERIC HOFFER
ERIC HOFFER
Others have said it, I'm just typing it in all-caps so that you'll notice, and also because my opinion is so valuable that it literally counts three times as much as that of a normal Moron.
The True Believer. Read it tomorrow. Hell, read it yesterday.
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 02:26 PM (/COnL)
books.google.com/books?id=nXwpAAAAYAAJ
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 02:26 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at March 04, 2013 02:27 PM (AbHls)
I lol'd
very good.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:27 PM (qyv02)
Off mathematical sock.
In comment to Prescient11,
Kuhn in on my desk, I intend to read it sometime soon.
Comps and all that jazz. (But I'm debating using some of his stuff in my comps if it's applicable enough.)
Posted by: tsrblke at March 04, 2013 02:27 PM (GaqMa)
Posted by: beach reader at March 04, 2013 02:27 PM (XYSwB)
The Constitution of the United States of America
----
Very good. Another obvious read that doesn't require the stamina that Doestyevsky requires - the Declaration of Independence.
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:27 PM (gmeXX)
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 02:28 PM (/COnL)
Posted by: Mirror-Universe Mitt Romney at March 04, 2013 02:28 PM (Rcoex)
It's easy to forget that the out of control federal power was a two stage usurpation starting with the Marshall Court, and accelerating with the Warren court.
One could make the argument that the FDR era court went from usurping power for its own ends while maintaining its role as hedge between the Federal and State level but by the FDR era the cowing of the court to venerate the federal over all was largely a done deal and the Warren Court used this settled bent to start obliterating state individuality.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:28 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Arbalest at March 04, 2013 02:28 PM (edr3f)
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 06:25 PM (gmeXX)
----
I saw that!
Posted by: Iblis at March 04, 2013 02:28 PM (9221z)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:28 PM (GEICT)
READ ERIC HOFFER.
More importantly, skedaddle on over to Wikipedia and read about his biography. He's even more impressive a thinker when you learn about his background (particularly the fact that he was more or less completely self-taught -- a longshoreman by trade, not a university academic).
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 02:29 PM (/COnL)
I like it. Explains a lot. Still the universe sucks though.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:29 PM (qyv02)
Posted by: Josh at March 04, 2013 02:29 PM (/kaf3)
Hobbes? Bah. Filmer is where it's at. And de Maistre. George Fitzhugh, too.
At least, for the love of God, read Hutchinson's Strictures: http://archive.org/details/thomashutchinson00hutc
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 02:30 PM (QTHTd)
The irony is I'd argue they are in fact succumbing to their own theory of the false god's poisoned creation trap...
I can imagine or pretend that A is B I cannot force reality to pretend A is B.
The secular part of my being wonders if this is not an evolutionary safeguard of some sort or an instinct left over from our climb to reason.
The spiritual part of my mind is saddened that a person would reject His gift of reason and critical thinking.
Anyway there is nothing new under the sun, and as the Chinese say "empires wax and empires wane."
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:31 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Voltaires Crack at March 04, 2013 06:31 PM (8diwD)
----------
Oh yes.
Posted by: mama winger at March 04, 2013 02:32 PM (P6QsQ)
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart
***
There's a snorkel? I didn't even get told. Jeez.
Posted by: Tilikum the Killer Assault Whale at March 04, 2013 02:33 PM (uhftQ)
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:33 PM (gmeXX)
Posted by: Stephen Price Blair at March 04, 2013 02:34 PM (QF8uk)
<blockquote>On October 25, 1946, in a crowded room in Cambridge, England, the great twentieth-century philosophers Ludwig Wittgenstein and Karl Popper came face to face for the first and only time. The meeting -- which lasted ten minutes -- did not go well. Their loud and aggressive confrontation became the stuff of instant legend, but precisely what happened during that brief confrontation remained for decades the subject of intense disagreement.
An engaging mix of philosophy, history, biography, and literary detection, Wittgenstein's Poker explores, through the Popper/Wittgenstein confrontation, the history of philosophy in the twentieth century. It evokes the tumult of fin-de-siécle Vienna, Wittgentein's and Popper's birthplace; the tragedy of the Nazi takeover of Austria; and postwar Cambridge University, with its eccentric set of philosophy dons, including Bertrand Russell. At the center of the story stand the two giants of philosophy themselves -- proud, irascible, larger than life -- and spoiling for a fight</blockquote>Any book that "evokes the tumult of fin-de-siécle Vienna", well what can one say but.... Salieri.
Posted by: Voltaires Crack at March 04, 2013 02:34 PM (8diwD)
Posted by: Michele Obama's Horse Hair Landing Strip at March 04, 2013 02:34 PM (M5sjN)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] at March 04, 2013 02:36 PM (bxiXv)
Posted by: mama winger at March 04, 2013 06:32 PM (P6QsQ)
__________
and The Cost of Discipleship for that matter.
Posted by: Voltaires Crack at March 04, 2013 02:36 PM (8diwD)
@ 156
Yes, I know I should read The Anti-Federalist Papers, but I haven't gotten around to them.
Take all I have to say with an appropriately large grain of salt.
Posted by: shoeless at March 04, 2013 02:36 PM (dY+4R)
Posted by: Dr. Varno at March 04, 2013 02:38 PM (M2aUn)
I'd argue that Warren's actions were only possible because it was the first actions of the cemented Federal uber alles Court that prevailed until Scalia's fanclub started getting power.
I mean I get what you're saying and read in a vacuum I'd largely agree even.
I think Roberts perversely is the third stage of the rocket.
he is devolving the court to something it never was.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:38 PM (LRFds)
fin-de-siécle Vienna", well what can one say but.... Salieri.
Pardon me, but do you have any Grey Poupon?
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 02:38 PM (6TB1Z)
Posted by: Voltaires Crack at March 04, 2013 06:36 PM (8diwD)
-------------
I fear both may be needed as a sort of instruction guide in the very near future.
Posted by: mama winger at March 04, 2013 02:39 PM (P6QsQ)
"The essence of Gnosticism is the enlargement of the soul so as to place God within man and under manÂ’s control. Once this is understood, Gnosticism, and all the seemingly confusing varieties of Gnosticism, can be understood."
Pretty simple when you look at that way.
Posted by: lowandslow at March 04, 2013 02:39 PM (7Nq2G)
Wait, I can't come up with a good enough crack on Kratos. Never mind.
Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at March 04, 2013 02:39 PM (aozUR)
Posted by: teej at March 04, 2013 02:39 PM (r60DJ)
fin-de-siécle Vienna", well what can one say but.... Salieri.
Pardon me, but do you have any Grey Poupon?
Posted by: pep at March 04, 2013 06:38 PM (6TB1Z)
You forgot the word "zeigeist", not to be confused with "zaftig".
Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at March 04, 2013 02:40 PM (aozUR)
Have you seen them IN PERSON? Or just pics and he SAYS they're his?
He's tricky. Is he a he? Does anyone know? Or is it all a sinister plot to ensnare the unwary?
Tune in tomorrow when Ace Bandage tries to square a circle.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at March 04, 2013 02:40 PM (qyv02)
As ham sandwiches go, it was perfection. A thick slab of ham, a fresh bun, crisp lettuce and plenty of expensive, light brown, gourmet mustard.
The corners of Dick's jaw aching in anticipation, he carried it to the table in his backyard, picked it up with both hands but was stopped, suddenly by his wife.
"Hold Junior (their six-week-old son) while I get my sandwich," she said.
Dick had him balanced between his left elbow and shoulder and was reaching again for the ham sandwich when he noticed a streak of mustard on his fingers. Dick loves mustard. He had no napkin. So, he just licked it right off. But, It was not mustard!!! No man ever put a baby down faster.
Now you know why they call that mustard: 'Poupon'
Posted by: Voltaires Crack at March 04, 2013 02:41 PM (8diwD)
That's French for, "Well fuck me with a Vienna sausage!"
Meaning, "I don't have much time and I need to shower anyway."
Posted by: Dang at March 04, 2013 02:41 PM (R18D0)
It sounds to me that the theory holds that we're all nothing but characters in a Sims or Sim City game being played by assholes.
Posted by: kbdabear at March 04, 2013 02:41 PM (mCvL4)
Sven, I have no clue what Roberts is going to do. His court could go in many different ways. He may end up being a conservative hero despite Obamcare, he may simply be a court manager, he may ultimately get surrounded by so many liberals that he simply manages the decline as it is. I really don't know. But I think I will by the end of this term. At least I'll know if he is a federalist or not.
Posted by: SH at March 04, 2013 02:41 PM (gmeXX)
no, no sorry was not trying to be an ass...the anti-federalist papers just help show the range of thought...was not being a narcissist. There's a reason some of the founders' little lights quit twinkling....
Thomas Jefferson, George Mason et al essentially began the Democrat tradition of shit fit at business with the AF papers.
Anyway was merely trying to be helpful.
Regards,
sven
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:42 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: ghostofhallelujah at March 04, 2013 02:42 PM (XvrTA)
Simon Magus and his successor Menandar used their fake devotion to Jesus to destroy the teaching of Jesus, changing it into bullshit intellectual nonsense.
The gnostics should not be confused with other "heretics" who had sincere differences about what Jesus taught.
Posted by: Tonawanda at March 04, 2013 02:42 PM (GeFHE)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at March 04, 2013 02:43 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Skookumchuk at March 04, 2013 02:43 PM (x4x3r)
an often used metaphor...basically the narcissism inherent is that only a select few can attain Salvation through their knowledge of the True God creator and that the majority of the human race are NPCs....a hubris I find loathsome.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:43 PM (LRFds)
166: I don't know if that is true. For most of our history they were. Arguably, the judiciary's power only increased after profound structural changes were made to the Constitution and only at the behest of one of the other branches. The executive wanted a stronger judiciary because the stronger judiciary meant he was stronger.
===================
Arguably, the seeds for the expansion of judicial power (the seminal case in that expansion being, imo, Brown vs. The Board of Education, and the prestige for the Court which flowed from that case) were planted in the Constitution itself.
I think - from some ill-remembered commentary I once perused - this was the position of the anti-federalists. If I am not mistaken - and I very may well be - the anti-federalists saw, from the text of the proposed Constitution, the potential dangers of judicial branch.
Posted by: shoeless at March 04, 2013 02:44 PM (dY+4R)
And I believe in one Earth, the Mother of us all, and in one Womb wherein all men are begotten, and wherein they shall rest, Mystery of Mystery, in Her name BABALON.
And I believe in the Serpent and the Lion, Mystery of Mystery, in His name BAPHOMET.
And I believe in one Gnostic and Catholic Church of Light, Life, Love and Liberty, the Word of whose Law is THELEMA.
And I believe in the communion of Saints.
And, forasmuch as meat and drink are transmuted in us daily into spiritual substance, I believe in the Miracle of the Mass.
And I confess one Baptism of Wisdom whereby we accomplish the Miracle of Incarnation.
And I confess my life one, individual, and eternal that was, and is, and is to come.
AUMGN. AUMGN. AUMGN.
Posted by: Aleister Crowley, Secret Agent 666 at March 04, 2013 02:44 PM (WM+rJ)
-----------------
That's wonderfully put, BTW.
Posted by: mama winger at March 04, 2013 02:45 PM (P6QsQ)
Posted by: Exasperated Expat at March 04, 2013 02:46 PM (qZI6x)
It comes in at around 150 pages and covers everything, more or less, up until the 20th century.
Posted by: JorgXMckie at March 04, 2013 02:46 PM (290l2)
Posted by: Piercello at March 04, 2013 02:46 PM (E/6f0)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] at March 04, 2013 02:47 PM (bxiXv)
There is some appalling mumbo jumbo in the NH codices, on the "how can they believe all this shit" level.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 02:49 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: Kevin in ABQ at March 04, 2013 02:49 PM (XrGnJ)
Yeah no that's the nature of the con by the way...
they would say that they are always better understanding God and that they are acting in his service...
it's the most dangerous of vanity because it institutionalizes the worst aspect of the TV evangelist and coupled it at the time with well nigh unlimited power over the layman.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 02:49 PM (LRFds)
And then there's this: http://gnosis.org/naghamm/goseqypt.html
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
(actual quote)
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 02:52 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: Tonawanda at March 04, 2013 02:52 PM (GeFHE)
Posted by: teej at March 04, 2013 02:52 PM (erYRT)
235, sven,
No, no, I didn't take your remark amiss at all.
The Anti-Federalist Papers is something I've meant to read for a long time, and have just never gotten around to.
And I DO feel the lack of not reading it -- I know one side of the argument, but not the counter-argument. That's a real, substantive gap in my knowledge.
Cheers.
Posted by: shoeless at March 04, 2013 02:57 PM (dY+4R)
Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i] at March 04, 2013 02:58 PM (bxiXv)
well take comfort the Original Gangsta Gnostics are long since retired bud...
these new kids are not half as arrogant...but are maybe twice as dumb.
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 03:03 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Manfred von Brauerei-Mehrwertsteuer, Member, The League of Ugly Shirted Gentlemen at March 04, 2013 03:04 PM (edr3f)
Posted by: Boone at March 04, 2013 03:11 PM (dNx7B)
Human Action by von Mises is the opposite of short and easy, but worth the read.
I too have One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich on my "must read" list on Goodreads, as well as Cancer Ward.
The Grapes of Wrath. Hold on, yes, read this. Steinbeck was an amazing author and he captured the misery of the Joads perfectly. In the bigger picture, we're all better off that small family plots have given way to more efficient farming methods, but the small picture grasps the attention better. Your average low info voter won't see the bigger picture, and we need some better methods of dealing with this.
But really, any book where Socrates is destroying the "experts" is good.
Posted by: Aaron at March 04, 2013 03:12 PM (Tlix5)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 03:13 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 03:18 PM (LCRYB)
Pick your poison on authors, according to your predisposed leanings:
Gives a decent picture into authors that you might want to check out. My own favorite sting: GK Chesterton, de Maistre, Powell, etc.
Posted by: HoosierHillbilly at March 04, 2013 03:24 PM (oyWNr)
Posted by: Brother Cavil & His All-Star Sockpuppets at March 04, 2013 03:30 PM (mbxHg)
The Nag Hammadi manuscripts were mentioned in a couple of different shows on NatGeo and History channels, Ace.
The manuscripts were found in sealed jars, by a peasant...and probably would not have survived, if the paper had been suitable for use as toilet paper.
So, it was lucky for historians that the manuscripts were crumbly and the peasant took them to market to sell them as 'something old'.
Posted by: wheatie at March 04, 2013 03:30 PM (QPnFm)
I studied early Christianity in college and I kept up to date in the field until 2002 or so. Mostly I was looking at what Ehrman called "proto-orthodoxy".
This touched Nag Hammadi at the Apocryphon of James and the Gospel of Thomas; also "Dialogue of the Saviour" and a little of the Valentinian literature. The "letter of Ptolemy to Flora" and the "Gospel of Mary", I know, aren't technically Nag Hammadi, but I got to read those too.
These were the moderates, the stuff the gnostics would sell to the public.
The whacked-out-there gnostic literature tended not to be sold to the public. These were "the mysteries". Christians like Irenaeus and Hippolytus aired the stuff that the gnostics were telling each other; non-Christians like Lucian and Celsus would also air it (but implicating all the Christians with the gnostic label). As Tonawanda said, we know NOW that the gnostics' critics were right.
One suspects that, as we didn't know for sure until now, back then the average Roman didn't know for sure either. Because the gnostics would just wave it away and lie if confronted.
Sort of like . . . Scientology!
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 03:32 PM (QTHTd)
almost precisely like Scientology which is why I was so against scientology...
I'm thinking that the flawed monotheistic and faux monotheistic faiths all have this distorted humanist beast stalking it ostensibly from within its tent...
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 03:34 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 03:35 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: andrew breitbart at March 04, 2013 03:37 PM (SrCwM)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 03:37 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 03:38 PM (LCRYB)
The counter posit would speak to the attempted focus to mastery and fitness to purpose...
I'm not sure I adhere to that paradigm, but I can see the validity of an argument that along with the mind engaging in ego in its prioritization of knowledge there is something to be said for winnowing out extraneous but syllabically "necessary" data.
In my case I panicked and got busy.
You never quit learning, but often need to learn what to learn.
regards,
sven
Posted by: sven10077-ArkLaTex travelogue and Researcher at March 04, 2013 03:40 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: egd at March 04, 2013 03:40 PM (re6uF)
For example: the Book of Revelation was but one of many "apocalypse" texts that were popular at the time -- as it turns out, there was an entire subgenre of such literature, because the early (pre-Constantine) Christian worldview was firmly Millenialist, i.e. they believed the end-times were a-comin', and soon. As that failed to actually happen, and as the Church became an institution, this fundamental pillar of early Christianity was deemed rather embarrassing and counterproductive to the Church's proselytizing needs, which is why when the Council of Nicea (where we get the Nicene Creed from) fixed the canon of the New Testament books, they actually EXCLUDED Revelations from the Bible...it only hung around because 1.) it was too popular to be suppressed completely; 2.) it filled a "literary" need (!) by providing the New Testament with an "endpoint" of sorts...otherwise it would have simply terminated in a series of Pauline epistles, which is rather anticlimactic when you think about it.
I'm fascinated by the origins of the four Gospels, and the order in which they were written, the extent to which they relied upon another, etc. Mark is widely thought to be the earliest and the closest "to the source," so to speak -- a set of transcriptions by St. Peter's stenographer during his missionary work in Rome. Looked at in that light, it's remarkable how much of the standard "Jesus account" we take for granted is ABSENT from Mark...most of that was introduced in John, the only Gospel we know for sure to have been written long after the event, and by a Greek (most likely fighting a religious propaganda war against the "Judaizing" faction of the early Christian church, i.e. descendants of the original apostles living in and around Jerusalem).
Of course all this is considered blasphemy in certain fundamentalist quarters. But textual analysis of the Gospels is hugely fascinating, and reveals so much about who Jesus really was to his first generation of adherents.
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 03:41 PM (/COnL)
Don't edit erg's stuff. It self-debunks, and provides great entertainment for the rest of us.
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 03:42 PM (/COnL)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 03:45 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: troyriser at March 04, 2013 03:46 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: Jim S. at March 04, 2013 03:46 PM (XfZDP)
Posted by: troyriser at March 04, 2013 03:52 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: A. Pendragon at March 04, 2013 03:55 PM (wJliR)
The problem with gnosticism is that I've only ever found three types of person to write about it.
1. New Age jagoffs, and concern-trolls like Elaine Pagels. These are pro-gnosticism.
2. Christians. They are anti-gnosticism but not always for reasons a non-Christian may accept.
3. Atheists. They use gnosticism to say that Christianity is gnostic, and have no real interest in gnosticism itself. Earl Doherty is one of these.
I used this site: http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
for the primary material. I tended to gloss over the "in the 13th aeon the angel Mumblegumbo is revealed" and the "E-I-E-I-O" stuff as being a complete fever dream. Just paging through all that will, I think, give you enough of a headache that you can see where gnosticism was going.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at March 04, 2013 03:56 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: A. Pendragon at March 04, 2013 03:59 PM (wJliR)
Posted by: Fred at March 04, 2013 04:01 PM (1t4mr)
Posted by: troyriser at March 04, 2013 04:03 PM (ptcFO)
I wish erp would tell us more about monads. Or maybe he meant to say gonads, who knows?
Re: the Gnostics, I believe both Paul Johnson and George Weigel have written quite a bit about how much modern leftism owes to the Gnostic heresy. Weigel has pointed out how gnostic modern feminism is, with its' contempt for physicial realities. In gnostic feminist world, it's perfectly reasonable to have women serve in combat and try out for the NFL.
Posted by: Donna V. at March 04, 2013 04:03 PM (7FqJH)
I have no doubt he did. For the record, I am very much a Christian, and I believe in the ineffable mysteries of God and Christ. However, I am also a historian and a textual analyst (one of my side-hobbies is analyzing the canonical classical corpus concerning the early Roman Republic -- i.e., Livy, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Plutarch, the antiquarians like Varro, etc.) and reconstructing the ACTUAL history of the regal period and the early Republic as opposed to the "traditional" narrative). And you cannot learn those tools and know that the New Testament was written by men and ASSEMBLED by men in a highly politicized environment (2nd-4th centuries AD) without realizing that the authentic truth of Jesus has been mangled in the transmission. That there is a real, divine truth there is not in doubt for me...I just want to get past the political bullshit. (For example, the Gospel of John was written as part of an ongoing campaign against the Judaizing faction of Christianity, because they had a lot of inherent prestige and presumed authenticity as the group directly descended from Jesus's original disciples...to pretend that it wasn't a document born DIRECTLY from a power struggle amongst factions of the nascent Church is simply to clap one's hands over one's eyes and say "I am ignoring the fallen nature of humankind because life is simpler if I unquestioningly accept biblical inerrancy.)
Me? I tend to think of the Gospel of Mark (with key supplementation by Matthew and Luke, which both drew upon an otherwise unpreserved "Sayings of Jesus" text that had circulated among the early Christians) as the true Gospel of Christ. John and the various subsequent elaborations by later authors are little more than man's grubby, flawed hands adulterating and besmirching the pure truth of Jesus's life and mission.
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 04:12 PM (/COnL)
Posted by: A. Pendragon at March 04, 2013 04:15 PM (wJliR)
Science and Health with key to the scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science) reads like an old gnostic tract.
There are strains of gnosticism in the theosophists (M. Blavatsky). The Russian Dukhobors were probably influenced by them as well. It is very likely that the Druze are descendents of a gnostic pagan group.
There's some good starts on finding modern gnosticism.
Posted by: jnials at March 04, 2013 04:15 PM (A3EAh)
Re: "gnostics": someone is still trying to pawn this BS off as an "alternative Christianity?" Really? Too much Dan Brown, not enough actual history.
Posted by: Patrick at March 04, 2013 04:16 PM (LrlHu)
Really, the only interesting thing about Gnosticism is its tenacity among certain communities. Ace mentioned the weird theory that it somehow survived to be a formative influence upon 20th century political ideologies like Communism and Nazism -- this is wholly unsupportable by any evidence I'm aware of, and I'm a student of this era -- but there's no question that Gnostic traditions survived well into the medieval era, most notably with the Albigensians, who got their weird (and ultimately exterminated) theology from an admixture of Paulician and Bogomil religious beliefs.
Posted by: Jeff B. at March 04, 2013 04:24 PM (/COnL)
Damn...beat me to it. Just finished rereading that. Frighteningly accurate.
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at March 04, 2013 04:38 PM (TgO0r)
Posted by: NaCly Dog at March 04, 2013 04:44 PM (u82oZ)
Posted by: Fabio9000 at March 04, 2013 04:51 PM (sN3jR)
Posted by: Rex Harrison's Hat at March 04, 2013 04:54 PM (zAodn)
Jury nullification
by Clay S. Conrad ...great read on how jurys can and should declare defendants not guilty .... as the law they are accused of violating is viewed as unjust... read this book and then hope to get on a jury and stick a finger in a judges eye! Woot woot!!
Posted by: Some Guy in Wisconsin at March 04, 2013 05:04 PM (wyx35)
Posted by: Patrick at March 04, 2013 05:12 PM (LrlHu)
Posted by: The Political Hat at March 04, 2013 05:42 PM (Vk2pI)
It is a lovely voice. But it has so much bullshit behind it, it is a torment to the intelligent brain.
There is NOTHING phony about the voice of Scott Simon. I love the guy, altho he never says anything except Leftist propaganda.
Non-Leftists have to examine the BBC pre-Blair for a good format, and they have to find Victor Davis Hansens, and Aces, and Mark Steyns, David Mamets, and obscure non-Leftist intellectuals (objective scholars) to fill up an amusing intellectually attractive weeks in various cultural venues.
Hard, yes. But what we face is hard.
Posted by: Tonawnada at March 04, 2013 06:03 PM (GeFHE)
Posted by: David Metis at March 04, 2013 06:15 PM (MRyPF)
Posted by: troyriser at March 04, 2013 06:22 PM (ptcFO)
Liberalism is, indeed, a form of gnosticism because it appeals to "special knowledge' possessed by an elite. Sound familiar? You're up to your neck in gnosticism.
Christianity is actually very eastern in that it basically boils down to this: you can become reconciled to God by ridding yourself of self-idolatry and concentrating on the welfare of others. That's it in a nutshell. And it's true whether stories like Adam and Eve or Christ rising form the dead are literally true or not. The truth of Christianity transcends its human limitations.
Posted by: ahem at March 04, 2013 06:33 PM (pZBqE)
Posted by: troyriser at March 04, 2013 06:40 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: logprof at March 04, 2013 07:00 PM (+iA5G)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 07:34 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Patrick at March 04, 2013 07:35 PM (LrlHu)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 07:35 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Patrick at March 04, 2013 07:37 PM (LrlHu)
HOWEVER: it does share a *striking* resemblance in its base to many modern philosophies. Mostly because it shares a very critical feature: ontological dualism. Some gnostic sects followed this to its logical conclusion - epistemological dualism. Both of these are key components to the cultural developments that would later give the west the poison of the Renaissance and the greater poison of the so-called Enlightenment (little more than ever-increasing elevations of man as "god"). And both of these concepts, popularized but not necessarily created by Aquinas, are the cornerstones in a culture that had begun to rot in 1054. All we have witnessed since that time is the progressive decrepitude, culturally and spiritually speaking, of a people cut off from the Body of Christ.
Yeah, we got cars and chemistry and all sorts of medical advances - along with so much other soul-poisoning stuff as to be astounding. It doesn't profit a man to sell his soul for the whole world, but for Facebook? Or even glasses . . . or eve *life-saving* surgeries . . . save your life for, what? To end a greater distance from God than you started?
Admitted, this is from a Christian worldview. From a Western (non-Patristic) worldview, all there is, all that can be measured, is that which is worldly. Material progress is the ONLY progress. Of course, that lets in the cracks the idea of humanism/atheism/perfectionism, and from there, it's just one side of the coin or the other: worship man in the collective (Marx) as the individual (Ayn Rand-type individualism). Either way, it ends in tyranny.
And all we've seen since this nation was founded as an, as Blessed Seraphim Rose would say, attempted compromise with the "revolution" (the elevation of man as "god"), is the slow march to tyranny. What Eastern Europe and the poor souls in Russia experienced in a rush, we're watching in slow motion.
This is, of course, not some Alex Jones-lunatic-one-world-order nonsense. It's the simple, natural, and inevitable result of the idea that man is "god." It will manifest itself culturally, spiritually, and, eventually, politically. There is no gettin' around it.
I mean, we lasted how many years before Jefferson though it was ok to violate the "sacred" Constitution because it was a good deal? Any government based on man, as ours is (don't let the half-hearted appeals to a "creator" fool ya) cannot stand on its own. There is nothing outside of man in such a materialist/naturalist/humanist philosophy, and, man then being the measure of all things, including what a "creator" is, no document, "sacred" or otherwise, that is nothing more than a creation of man, will keep any man, or group of men, from imposing his/their will as a type of "god" or "gods."
Again: "The Greek East and the Latin West," by Philip Sherrard, then "Nihilism" by Blessed Seraphim Rose, with "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" by Protopresbyter Pomazansky as necessary background reading to understand theosis, which neither of the first two works really touch on but is probably one of the most important, and lost, beliefs in understanding actual Christianity.
Posted by: Patrick at March 04, 2013 08:09 PM (LrlHu)
Posted by: ace at March 04, 2013 08:15 PM (LCRYB)
Epistemological dualism: the separation of knowledge into the realms of belief and "fact" (or, in the West, what we colloquially call "science").
Aquinas laid the foundations for these separations in reality when, in the Summa, he claimed that God was only essence (thereby denying the ancient and original Christian teaching regarding God's Uncreated Energies, often called Grace and not properly understood in the West (non-Patristic) worldview) and when he said all that could be known of the Faith was what was already revealed or told to us through the Bishop of Rome and what man could glean from his interaction with nature. That is, the latter form of "knowledge" has morphed into what we know commonly call "science."
Both of these dualisms are inherent in Western (non-Patristic) culture and are very important in understanding the ever-growing influence of the idea of man as "god," manifested in various forms and to various degrees, but ever more and more, in the West.
Posted by: Patrick at March 04, 2013 08:38 PM (LrlHu)
Posted by: Frank Underwood, D-South Carolina at March 05, 2013 03:16 AM (fscec)
Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at March 05, 2013 06:29 AM (F0o5k)
Posted by: Neo at March 05, 2013 08:06 AM (Vq2e5)
Norman Cohn, __The Pursuit of the Millennium: Revolutionary Millenniarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages__. Relates the appeal of revolutionary violence to the pre-Christian myth of the golden age before "mine and thine" and the Christian myth of the cleansing disaster and survival of a spiritual elect.
Similarly...
Igor Shafareyevitch, __The Socialist Phenomenon__.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (ed.), __From Under the Rubble__.
Posted by: Malcolm Kirkpatrick at March 05, 2013 08:45 AM (VR8af)
Are there authors that start with the premise a person exists only because he/she can reflect back on a moment a split instant from now? I grasp sometimes at a concept that regardless of how old I am, everything before that moment is just a remembrance. I only truly exist right now, in an instantaneous moment or as a remembrance of my own a tiniest fraction forward. If I cease to be at some future point there would then be some sort of recursive, unravelling effect back to now, so I would instantly be at that undoing seemingly instantly. Well, I'm sure its going to seem that way, anyway. Sh*t.
Posted by: Prindle at March 05, 2013 01:20 PM (2Ynt1)
Posted by: Little Gidding at March 05, 2013 01:58 PM (5M4xR)
"Orthodox Dogmatic Theology," by Protopresbyter Pomazansky, then "The Greek East and the Latin West" by Philip Sherrard, and THEN, "Nihilism" by Blessed Seraphim Rose. Pretty much maps out exactly where we are and why, insofar as human language can encapsulate Truth."
That book by Sherrard was SO bad. As in "so far from good that the light from good would take eighteen years to reach that book."
Seriously, I just turned to a random page in the book (which I unfortunately bought on a recommendation like this), and it was so badly written and so factually inaccurate that it made my brain hurt. I think 50 Shades of Grey might have more literary merit.
Awful. Do not read. You won't get that piece of your life back.
Posted by: JP at March 05, 2013 05:25 PM (oSZEE)
Posted by: teapartydoc at March 06, 2013 06:37 AM (4U98b)
Posted by: Patrick at March 06, 2013 11:42 AM (LrlHu)
Posted by: Patrick at March 06, 2013 11:44 AM (LrlHu)
Hide Comments | Add Comment | Refresh | Top
64 queries taking 0.3215 seconds, 453 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) Channelling Breitbart at March 04, 2013 01:50 PM (xN73L)