1 Post Traumatic Stress Injury.

2 If you're first and there's nobody around to see it, does it make a sound?

3 I don't see what this post means. It's considered a disorder, because your brain isn't working how it's supposed to anymore.

4 noun 1. a state of confusion. "tiresome days of mess and disorder" synonyms: untidiness, disorderliness, mess, disarray, chaos, confusion; More antonyms: tidiness the disruption of peaceful and law-abiding behavior. "recurrent food crises led to periodic outbreaks of disorder" synonyms: unrest, disturbance, disruption, upheaval, turmoil, mayhem, pandemonium; More antonyms: order, peace MEDICINE a disruption of normal physical or mental functions; a disease or abnormal condition. plural noun: disorders "eating disorders" synonyms: disease, infection, complaint, condition, affliction, malady, sickness, illness, ailment, infirmity, irregularity More verb verb: disorder; 3rd person present: disorders; past tense: disordered; past participle: disordered; gerund or present participle: disordering 1. disrupt the systematic functioning or neat arrangement of. "she went to comb her disordered hair"

5 Post traumatic stress normalcy. If stuff like that doesn't have some sort of impact, ...........yeah, I just don't know.

6 PTS happens in many situations other than military.  My mother had it after the death of my father - well beyond ordinary grief, it virtually immobilized her and it required treatment for a long time.  I agree is it not a disorder per se, but it does require specialized treatment and therapy. 

7 Now is the time on Sprockets when I pick at your nits. Isn't there a technical reason why it's called a disorder? Gah, I should know this but it's time limited or some such thus disorder? C'mon distributed Horde knowledge, put me some.

8 Welcome to my nightmare.

9 I agree.
If you get punched in the arm the big black bruise is not a disorder.
It is the natural result of the injury.
If you experience horrific violence and bloodshed as in combat then of course you are upset because of it.

10 DiT raises a good point.

I'll need to mull this over.

Either way, his other point, that we need to get our veterans the treatment they need to cope with PTS(D), is completely spot on.

11 A "disorder" doesn't necessarily signify something bad or "abnormal"—just something that negatively affects one's life.

12 In medicine, the term "disorder" is not about whether something is "normal".  It is "normal" to catch a cold, but that is still an illness.  "Disorder" describes something which has a marked negative impact on a person's life, preventing him from functioning as a healthy person would.  Having said that, PTSD is both over diagnosed and under diagnosed, i.e. the wrong people are getting labelled with this and the truly hurting are not getting the help they need and deserve.

13 I guess what Dave is saying is that disorder has a negative connotation. But, it only does by those that choose to make it political, imho.

14 because your brain isn't working how it's supposed to anymore.

Posted by: HoboJerky, now with 56% more DOOM! at August 22, 2013 10:30 AM (09o/X)

I think DiT's point is that your brain is working normally.

PTS is a normal reaction to the trauma of battle. Its intensity is on a continuum, so some react more vigorously than others.

15 Oops, Rickroll had the same point.

16 "Syndrome" would probably be a more apt term.

But, this is a medical term.. and they must have terms that follow certain rules of classification.  I wouldn't get too hung up on the terminolgy.  I think they simply want to classify the intensity in a particular individual.  As you said, all trauma causes some stress.  But is it debilitating?  I think that is the difference.

Back in the late 60's I worked part time at my college campus receiving dock.  One of the guys in the attached warehouse had WW II "shell shock".  He was normal 90% of the time.  But when he went off, you wanted to stay away.

17 The Stigma prevents treatment. If we called pregnancy "Holy Shit It's the Life Ending Offspring Coming to Suck Your Life Force", there would be fewer births. We call PTSd a disorder, implying that people aren't normal that have it (since the English language is so currently fucked up, that's obviously not the intent), so fewer folks that need release and/or 'treatment' seek it. And that sucks, furthering the problem.

18 Like toddlers being diagnosed as bipolar. Aren't all bipolar? Isn't that normal behavior for that age?

19 I think "disorder" is used more neutrally, as in, something that impairs the ability to function in life. It isn't saying that the stress is the disorder, it is that the stress is causing the disorder. A lot of people have stress but aren't functionally impaired, some people have stress and are functionally impaired. The impairment is the disorder.

20 We owe those who have suffered so much to care for them. To help them heal. They gave us all of them. Their paid us with their future lives. I pray we find the way to give them back themselves. For them and for their loved ones. They gave us themselves. They gave that much. I want us to commit to give them their lives back. Somehow. We really must do that. Amen.

21 The media is using a medical term 'disorder' incorrectly. As usual. That's the nutshell. Won't change since it furthers their narrative to do so.

22 Dave, when I was in the Army we had a military headshrink tell us exactly then same thing-- that it's a normal reaction and the title is wrong. Completely agree, BTW.

23 Isn't there a technical reason why it's called a disorder?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Well it is a disorder.  PTSD has a set of common symptoms and can interfere, to a greater or lesser degree, with normal mental/social functioning of an individual so affected.

To some extent it's a game of semantics.  I think it should be considered and treated as a combat injury.  Psychology professionals do but the general (non military) public views it (at least to some extent) as a breakdown or weakness.  Decades of leftist agitprop, disguised as entertainment, has given the public the perception that all sufferers of PTSD are like nitroglycerine ready to explode at any moment.  That's really just a way to make civilians view vets with suspicion.

24 I think "disorder" is used more neutrally, as in, something that impairs the ability to function in life.

...and if you don't have a "disorder" or a disease, the third parties that pay out for therapy, time off work, etc etc, won't.

25 Personal note:  My wife is a psychologist at the VA in DC.  She works the polytrauma unit, but has a specialty in PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury. 

PTSD and TBI are the two areas where the VA is actually spending money in a worthwhile way, and where the government's expertise, both in theory and actual practice, vastly outstrips that of the private sector. 

If you know guys who have issues with where they've been and what they've done...get them to the local VA.  The VA system has plenty of horror stories to be sure - but not in this area.  They really can help. 

Another good thing the VA has done is hire ex-vets from OIF and OEF to be "Peer Support" to guide these guys through the VA system.  Nothing says "support" to these guys like another solider or Marine grabbing them by the arm and saying, "Dude, let's get this done.  I got your back."  It's paying big dividends.

26 I shouldn't have been giggling in that last comment, because I'm not.  Stupid sock.

27 After the Civil War, they called it "nostalgia."

Greek nostos, return home, and algos, pain.

That is a pretty good word, spoiled by subsequent misuse.

28 George Carlin on Shell Shock.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSp8IyaKCs0

29 PTSS (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome) is how I refer to it.

30 they used to call it "shell shock" or "battle fatigue"

31 Nothing says "support" to these guys like another solider or Marine grabbing them by the arm and saying, "Dude, let's get this done. I got your back." It's paying big dividends. Posted by: Sean Bannion at August 22, 2013 10:50 AM (6T8Ay) That's why having a MoH recipient be so open about this is important. Even badass soldiers revere MoH recipients. A lot of guys who think they can tough it out will see SSGT Carter being open about how he couldn't do it on his own and how their are services available. It will convince them it's ok to get help. I think his example will save a lot of lives.

32 To some extent it's a game of semantics. I think it should be considered and treated as a combat injury. Oh absolutely. I completely agree with that and DiT's point. *smishes him just because* All I was nitpicking was that the term disorder is there for a reason, it's not just a random term. It is completely fair to note that a term of art has been corrupted into an insult. I'm a huge Dorothy Sayers fan and it's fascinating to read about Lord Peter suffering from combat fatigue. The symptoms presented are what would now be considered PTSD.

33 Rockets Fired on Northern Israel; IDF Denies Retaliation At least four rockets fired from Lebanon toward Israel; residents of Akko, Nahariya urged to stay close to shelters. Drudge link says only 1 was stopped. hooboy ht drudge

34 PTS happens in many situations other than military. My mother had it after the death of my father - well beyond ordinary grief, it virtually immobilized her and it required treatment for a long time. I agree is it not a disorder per se, but it does require specialized treatment and therapy.

Posted by: rockmom at August 22, 2013 10:32 AM (aBlZ1)

 

Same thing with my mother.  Its been  23 years now and she is still having  some  effects from his death.  Of course she has always refused to  seek specialized treatment.    

35 "Personal note: My wife is a psychologist at the VA in DC. She works the polytrauma unit, but has a specialty in PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury"

Please thank her for me - hell, thank her for all of us.

TBI's being a somewhat different kettle of fish, what kind of success is the VA having in making our guys with PTSD "whole" or "whole enough" again? 

36 IMO, it's an injury. "Disorder" has too many negative connotations, particularly in the current age of medication/treatment for everything.

"Disorder" sounds like an excuse. We have too many excuses. Our military, who are at times exposed to horrors that cannot help but affect any reasonably normal individual, don't need excuses. They need our gratitude and our help.

Someone might mention that to Choom Boy, who suffers from America-hating Disorder. HE is "disordered," and the only "treatment" that will help is a long stay in Maximum Security.

37
    Were it up to me, anyone serving-- along with their families-- would receive free lifetime medical care.

     Very small price to pay for the service rendered.

   

38 http://www.wkbw.com/news/local/Hundreds-Selling-President-Obama-Tickets-on-Craigslist-220582611.html the comments are worth a chuckle

39

I don't like PTSD because the media uses it to mean Crazy Dangerous Violent Vet

 

I prefer something like battle fatigue

40 I think his example will save a lot of lives. Posted by: DrewM. at August 22, 2013 10:55 AM (AFi9e)

EXACTLY.  And that same idea is playing itself out countless times is VA Hospitals and Outpatient clinics daily.

I take a backseat to no one when it comes to bashing government...and especially the VA after having personally been through their "system" multiple times for multiple reasons.

But credit where credit is due here, they got themselves outside of their bullshit bureaucratic model on this issue at least and are doing good things.

41

42 Man...failsafe closure tags save my ass again.

Booyah!

43

As I've been told,  more soldiers are effected by killing someone than seeing others be killed.   Interesting that the theory of  the cleansing ritual after battle in ancient times was more to do with preventing PTS than a religious  sacrament.    

44 Man...failsafe closure tags save my ass again.

Booyah!
Posted by: Sean Bannion
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Closure is a myth propagated by publishers of self-help books.

45 Barack Obama is a stuttering clusterf*ck of a malignant traitor.

46 Burn it down. Scatter the stones. Salt the earth where it stood.

47 TBI's being a somewhat different kettle of fish, what kind of success is the VA having in making our guys with PTSD "whole" or "whole enough" again?

Too early to tell.  Need more data.  But....

I think 5-10 years from now you'll find guys with TBI having a bit of an easier time navigating life that would have been expected even 5 years ago.  In fact, this topic was our dinner conversation last night.

48 Man...failsafe closure tags save my ass again. You no likey the barrel?

49 Man...failsafe closure tags save my ass again. Booyah! Posted by: Sean Bannion at August 22, 2013 11:00 AM (6T8Ay) The barrel is always a fun ride, though. Definitely worth a visit or two.

50 I prefer "shell shock".  Fewer syllables is always better.  And it's more descriptive: gets right to the point instead of having to recall what PTSD stands for. 

51 I don't like PTSD because the media uses it to mean Crazy Dangerous Violent Vet I prefer something like battle fatigue Posted by: thunderb at August 22, 2013 10:58 AM (zOTsN) Agreed. Also, there needs to be some way to distinguish PTSD from combat situations from PTSD from non-combat. I was diagnosed with PTSD due to witnessing a traumatic family event that came very close to but thank you God did not involve a family member dying. As awful as that was, it wasn't anything even remotely like witnessing combat. Heck, it wasn't like being violently attacked either. When PTSD starts being a catch all term for everything from death of a loved one to combat, it loses it's descriptive power.

52 but the press does use PTSD as short hand for crazy dangerous vet, to the point civilians think if you are a vet you are crazy and dangerous

53 Kudos for posting this Dave. It makes a difference if we view people as normal or abnormal.

54

Some of you guys are raping the meaning of "disorder". Getting shot in the face and having a gaping wound in your jaw is not a disorder, it's a natural consequence of getting shot in the face.

Personally, anything that interferes with your day to day function, and PSTD certainly does, I would call a disorder.

55 The service is much better about handling it now than the private sector.  The current field manuals explicitly start out saying, you don't blame a soldier who breaks his leg in combat, and you don't tell him to walk it off.  Mental injuries are just as serious, and they require medical treatment just like a broken leg.

I think changing it from disorder to injury would be helpful, in that it would stress that this is a result of trauma, and it can be healed.  FWIW, not everyone who experiences trauma will get PTSD/PTSI.  It's a reaction that happens when you are under prolonged stress, have that ongoing stress reaction, and THEN have a serious trauma occur.  It's a disorder of the amygdala, almost like a twisted ankle.  You don't twist your ankle just walking, but as you are more and more tired (stressed) twisting it becomes more likely.

(The ongoing stress before the trauma is why it is so common in soldiers, and why special forces get it less -- they training they undergo all the time helps acclimate them to the stress.)

56 The barrel is always a fun ride, though.  Definitely worth a visit or two.  Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 22, 2013 11:02 AM (IXrOn)


I got a ride yesterday, thanks.

Cochran had left a steaming dump in the corner from a previous visit.

Note to self:  Bring Scott AirPack for next barrel trip

57

wow

 

there was a disturbance in the force

 

or I am hallucinating

 

but then I am a crazy conservative vet

58 I don't like PTSD because the media uses it to mean Crazy Dangerous Violent Vet  I prefer something like battle fatigue  Posted by: thunderb at August 22, 2013 10:58 AM (zOTsN)


Shit.  If we called it "peanut butter sandwich" the media would still use it to mean "Crazy Dangerous Violent Vet"

59 Thanks for this discussion and the black five link. I'm one of those chaplain types (local pastor, not chaplain proper, though I do have one who works with me and many friends who are), and these ideas are on point.

These men and women who have served need the time and space to adjust back to an entirely different world when they get home, and its incumbent upon us to give them the space they need while simultaneously surrounding them with unconditional love (love them as they are, right this second, without trying to fix them) and real community (spending time together, doing "normal" things, without trying to fix them).

Go go Moron Horde!

60 I've got it and I never served, but repeated assaults and an attempted murder by your classmates certainly creates a special sort of stress. Years later, I generally refuse to take the stairs (the murder attempt involved being pushed down a flight of concrete stairs) and hold the rail tightly if I do, and get really anxious and irritable if I've got a group of people facing me at short range - such as when a group spread out at the counter in front of me in my old job. How I managed to survive 9 years in retail without ending up in a straightjacket, especially after being assaulted twice more by customers, amazes me in hindsight.

61 but then I am a crazy conservative vet Posted by: thunderb at August 22, 2013 11:05 AM (zOTsN)


...and the Horde would still like to see your USAF JAG recruiting poster.

Jus' sayin'

62 yeah good luck with that!

63 if I ever figure out how to get into the yahoo group I will try and post it there

64

Were I a more cynical man, I would think that the gun-grabbers would use the PTSD label to ensure that good people will be denied access to gun purchases and carry permits.

 

But, hey. I'm just talking out my butt.

65 52 but the press does use PTSD as short hand for crazy dangerous vet, to the point civilians think if you are a vet you are crazy and dangerous And the world pretty universally agrees that crazy people shouldn't own....yeah, that's where that one was going.

66 Were it up to me, anyone serving-- along with their families-- would receive free lifetime medical care.

They're the only people the gov't should be paying for, IMO, although I'm drawing a line at Bradley Manning getting free boobs.

67 Even animals can suffer from relentless or repetitive trauma in a like manner. It's real and it's a natural reaction for a normal brain. I'm glad it's finally recognized for the debilitating injury that it is, better than when the military called it "shell shock" and thought it was a sign of cowardice.

68

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at August 22, 2013 10:58 AM (IXrOn)

 

I didn't see any comments.  What's the gist?  Are people expressing loathing for the showboating SCOAMF or calling the sellers rayciss for daring to blaspheme Teh One?

69 Nood up. Stompy stompy. Chop chop.

70 The military pre screens out the top 10-20% of the general population. It gives them back in worse shape than the general population. Fox News Exit Polls 2012 show that the younger vets from from the more recent wars voted for Obama, the older vets for Romney just google it

71 "(The ongoing stress before the trauma is why it is so common in soldiers, and why special forces get it less -- they training they undergo all the time helps acclimate them to the stress.)"

 SOF are also generally older too - and definitely wired a bit differently than regular troops.   That and their advanced training may make for a person who can process the stress better.

72 Dave, disorder is a medical term. Strictly speaking, it means a shift from the usual order of a system--for example, bleeding disorders can mean any abnormality of the clotting systems, from people who clot vessels off without provocation to hemophiliacs who will literally bleed to death from minor traumas without treatment to cause clots to form. In a strict sense, PTSD is absolutely the correct terminology. However, I understand your point about the connotations of the word. Perhaps if it were called post traumatic stress syndrome, it would be more palatable. Furthermore, there are at least nominally strict criteria for diagnosis of PTSD. The main factor is that the negative effects from the traumatic stress must persist longer than expected compared to "average" recovery, but a minimum of 6 months iirc. Now I will be the first to argue that lots of petty bullsh*t is classified as trauma, but actual combat experience isn't one of them.

73 "As I've been told, more soldiers are effected by killing someone than seeing others be killed. Interesting that the theory of the cleansing ritual after battle in ancient times was more to do with preventing PTS than a religious sacrament." Since there's now evidence that knights in the Medieval Period suffered PTS injuries, yeah. I imagine a lot of confessions and cleansing rituals had something to do with people recognizing battle-related mental injuries back then.

74 Another mindless imbecile shits on the thread.

So I got that goin' for me. 

Which is nice.

75 Please do not tell me that PTSD does not exist. As the son of a survivor of Hitler's death camps, I guarantee you that it most certainly does.

76 As usual , occam is full o' shit .

77 Oh, and link if anyone wants to see it: http://sciencenordic.com/violent-knights-feared-posttraumatic-stress

78 I never was in combat, but was in serious danger in first enlistment (flight deck at night) if something went wrong or I or one of my shipmates did something dumb. The other opportunities could have been equipment/ training accidents or sudden jihadi syndrome. Every one of us needs to read 'Stolen Valor' by B.G. Burkett. It will open your eyes concerning PTSD and the VA. My counsel to those separating from the service? Do not have PTSD in your record. The current Washington City regime will use it against you. How? First and foremost, to curtail or outright deny your Second Amendment rights. And secondly, when they go all Sundstein/Ayers/Nazi/Soviet mental 'disorders' a Record of PTSD will get you to the head of the line for elimination.

79 JJ everyone agrees it is a very real injury, we are discussing what it should be called, because its a very normal reaction to a very abnormal set of conditions

80 I can only speak from my experiences. As a Medical Unit in a VERY large Reserve Center, we get many sailors/Seabees/ and Marines back from combat zones with various degrees of, well lets just say re-orientation problems. Post Traumatic Stress or call it what you may. We have been giving particular attention to them. And when they are with us, they do well, but they are not always with us. They tend to less well totally surrounded by non-military. That is not intended as a shot at civilians or civilian health care, but we are aware of who they are, and in the civilian world they tend to just blend in or are looked on as slightly off. It's a catch 22

81 my brother has PTSD from Vietnam.  Night terrors, depression, anxiety, the whole thing.  I think vets like him do better with other vets cause they "get it".  That's why groups like wounded warriors is so important, vets helping vets.   Vets used to go to the VFW or American Legion halls to get that kind of camaraderie.  They don't anymore

82 I think DiT's point is that your brain is working normally. PTS is a normal reaction to the trauma of battle. Its intensity is on a continuum, so some react more vigorously than others. Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at August 22, 2013 10:40 AM (gqgiP) I guess we are debating what "normal" is. I mean normal as in you can live your life after combat is over.

83 Your brain reacted to the war experiences. Is that normal, in the sense of that's how brains sometimes react? Well, duhr. I think that's kind of missing the point.

84 my brother has PTSD from Vietnam. Night terrors, depression, anxiety, the whole thing. I think vets like him do better with other vets cause they "get it". That's why groups like wounded warriors is so important, vets helping vets. Vets used to go to the VFW or American Legion halls to get that kind of camaraderie. They don't anymore Posted by: thunderb at August 22, 2013 11:25 AM (zOTsN) Very Very true

85 If you suffer trauma, you will suffer stress. This isn't a disorder, it's normal. Violence. Rape. Battle. These are traumatic and it's wrong to say the resulting stress is some kind of "disorder". It's not a disorder, it's very normal. It's human. Sad and hard, but not abnormal.

It is true that when you suffer trauma, you will suffer stress.  the Disorder is when that trauma/stress does not go away with time and has significant adverse effects on your life.

I understand you trying to not label people with "disorder" who were themselves victims, but the reality is that the majority of people are able to cope with the stress and trauma and move on.  If we were to take your view, every solider that was ever in combat is one incident from exploding and unable to handle day-to-day life after the war - much like the media portrayed all Vietnam vets for years.  that is simply not true.  Your attempt to claim that people suffering from PTSD are just "normal" is basically arguing to go back to that idea.  Yes, they are normal people who were exposed to trauma and some reaction to that trauma is also normal.  But, PTSD diagnosis is for reactions that go beyond the normal reactions to trauma and become pervasive and the person cannot move past.

I'm glad society has moved past the point where anyone suffering from something like PTSD is labeled a "sissy" or worse, but let's also not go to far in the other direction to where we expect every soldier to fall apart after engaging in combat. 

86 dave,

if I understand you, you're objecting to the idea of calling it a "disorder" as this suggests some defect in the sufferer?

i guess I approve of your desire to be helpful towards those afflicted.  I'm not sure that I agree that "disorder" is a freighted word, or a misplaced one.

I am reminded of George Carlin's old bit on society's increasing resort to euphemism, and how "shellshock" -- a very direct term -- became "operational exhaustion" and then PTSD.

But dropping the "disorder" seems like another step in the chain of euphemism.

I'm not sure I agree with his bit, though. "Shellshock" may be a euphonious word but it's not a good medical term, as, for one thing, it implies the condition arose due to shelling.  PTSD may be medicalese but then that's what medicine does, it speaks in medicalese.

I have no problem with dropping "disorder," per se, but then I guess I'd ask why not drop "Syndrome," too, as "syndrome" generally means "something abnormal."  We don't speak of a "Hunger syndrome" after all.  You're just hungry.

I guess maybe it might be helpful to come up with a term that gets rid of the idea that this is abnormal, as soldiers, who put a high value on guts and being able to lump anything, may consider it less than soldierly to seek counseling for this very normal reaction, and we don't want that.

"Traumatic Reaction"?  Doesn't really seem to be a complete term (usually there'd be a "complex" or "disorder" at the end) but I guess that's the sort of thing you mean?

87 Yeah, I agree with Monkeytoe. I think PTSD is over-diagnosed, but I don't see the argument for dropping the D. There is a difference between stress and PTSD. And it is important that ppl who need medical treatment for PTSD get it, irrespective of the trauma that caused it, whether it be combat, child abuse, or something else.

88 Audie Murphy suffered from PTSD. I don't understand the stigma of a PTSD diagnosis-its the first step towards a healthier life.

89 79 JJ everyone agrees it is a very real injury, we are discussing what it should be called, because its a very normal reaction to a very abnormal set of conditions Posted by: thunderb at August 22, 2013 11:21 AM (zOTsN) Serves me right for only reading the comments. Whatever you want to call "it," when a person lives through a period of stress wherein there is a very real danger of grievous bodily harm or death, then that person will have emotional scars. To what extent they are manifested outwardly or inwardly, that person changes. I'll leave it to others to name what it is. But it most certainly is real. I lived with a victim of it for 50 years. Considering how her friends and relatives were even more fucked up, it's a miracle my mom was able to lead a somewhat normal and happy adult life. But she was troubled and it affected her behavior all her life.

90 BTW, I was diagnosed and treated for PTSD a decade ir so ago. I had to pay for the treatment out of pocket.

91 Again, when it crosses over from normal response to PTSD is when it persists for a long period of time. I've seen all kinds of horrible sh*t in the trauma room, and I definitely do not have PTSD. I'm definitely not a superman, though I am good at compartmentalizing stuff. I've seen cases that bother me, and I vividly remember several cases that are disturbing, but without screwing up my psyche. PTSD is a didproportianate response to normal trauma, or a response to disproportionate trauma--and IMO it must be actual trauma. MoH recipients by definition have seen disproportionate trauma--as have many other combat vets.

92 I am not sure medical care for PTSD always beats getting a puppy and walking it. Or golf. Worked for WWII guys. Severity varies obviously, see shellshocked from WWI.

93 And I agree that not all, or even most, soldiers suffer from PTSD. My dad was a psychiatric nurse during the Korean war. Although the soldiers were not said to suffer from PTSD, there was a clear difference btwn the men he treated and most soldiers.

94

My cousin was shot in the face with a shotgun in a hunting mishap losing his left eye. They were far in the back country and he had to be lead out because his other eye was swollen shut.

 He went on with his life, but within a year he was facing divorce and was totally out of it. Diagnosed with PTSD when we finally got him to agree to see someone about it. He didn't even remember yelling at people at times and losing it.

 

Crazy to see up close how it affects people.

95 Syndrome isn't necessarily bad. It just sounds scary from all the negative ways its been used. But in this case it is a syndrome rather than a disorder. A syndrome is a group of signs and symptoms that occur together and characterize a particular condition. Or a set of concurrent things (as emotions or actions) that usually form an identifiable pattern. In terms of normal behavior PTSS is abnormal but its not abnormal as a human reaction.

96
   Tough not to have SOME kind of reaction to being in combat.
 
   My Dad was a combat vet--he never talked about it until one evening he,my uncle Ed and I kinda drifted into it. This was after I'd got home--so perhaps it was some sort of therapy for me, though I never gave it a thought.

   More of an eye opener.

97 Thunderb A relative if mine had nite terrors for decades (he was severely abused as s child). A few yrs ago he was given a pill -- they are completely gone. Might recommend it to your bro.

98 Ace, it's a hard thing to put a name on, but the biggest thing is to get rid of the crazy & fragile stigma that goes with it. If that could be done with words, all the better. A lot of people are afraid of being labeled as crazy and don't seek treatment for that reason.

99 Participation trophies in reverse. "You have nothing wrong, it's natural."

100 @86 In the case of the world wars, shellshock could be literally mania or insanity from bombardment, but came to be a general term for combat fatigue. WWI was especially bad for true shellshock.

101

I concur.... its not a Disorder... its trying to deal with shit that should not happen to people... but does.

 

The WW2 Generation had enough people who fought so that their were Men around who had been there... done that... and could LISTEN....

 

My Generation?  Not so much.... if you start to open up about the crap you've seen... unless you are still in the military... there is no one around who has the proper frame of reference to even have a clue...

 

My Father never did talk to my Brother (who never served) about things he did in WW2 and Korea.... and did not talk to me about them until I had been in the shit myself...

 

The worst... is when you tell a True story... and you can see the person you are talking to does not believe its real, because shit like that only happens in the movies... you can see their eyes glaze over....

102 PTS v. PTSD 86.hobgoblins "Syndrome," too, as "syndrome" generally means "something abnormal." -- ace -- What? MD aside, "syndrome" has nothing intrinsically abnormal in reference, but rather a natural course of events given the established set of circumstances. Origin: 1535–45; < Neo-Latin < Greek syndromḗ concurrence, combination, equivalent to syn- syn- + drom-, base meaning “run” (see -drome) + -ē feminine noun suffix 2. a group of related or coincident things, events, actions, etc. 3. the pattern of symptoms that characterize or indicate a particular social condition. 4. a predictable, characteristic pattern of behavior, action, etc., that tends to occur under certain circumstances -- When a word on a personal bio file that prompts prejudice against a person is applied to YOU, you'll change your tune about "only semantics" as it affects an employers' response to your disfavor. Disorders, Malfunctions and Discontents Need Not Apply

103 This is one of the more incorrect things I have read on the internet in some time. There are many errors in this blog post, but let me start with the biggest. The "normal" reaction to trauma is resilience. That is, most people are not affected. To argue that being affected by trauma is the "normal reaction" is false. The best research on veterans from OIF/OEF indicates about 6.7% develop PTSD while nearly 90% have experienced a trauma. To argue that "PTS" is normal is not correct. I can further critique if people are interested, but this post should be pulled.

104

 Yes, a reaction to trauma is normal in the immediate aftermath. The problem is when it never goes away.

 

I read a great book about the history of PTSD in British soldiers in WWI/WWII but I can't find the name right now.

Found it! A War of Nerves. It's really, really good.

 

105 PSTD should be like Autism with a huge spectral disorder where people fall. Some are fine but still have it, then some are so incapacitated from it they can not even walk to the fridge without panic attacks. PTSD is a catch all term like Autism and thus the rates can climb. People can get a symptoms on the spectrum from just watching events like 9/11 on TV even if they live a thousand miles away and some can even get symptoms on the scale from watching a movie. But it would not call that PTSD with that but the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) would say they have it.

106 Late to the thread, but Amen, Dave.

107 @trevor - PTSD can no longer be diagnosed from those watching on TV. This was codified in the May 2013 publication of DSM-5. Here is the exact language for what qualifies as a traumatic event: "Experiencing repeated or extreme exposure to aversive details of the traumatic event(s) (e.g., first responders collecting human remains; police officers repeatedly exposed to details of child abuse). Note: Criterion A4 does not apply to exposure through electronic media, television, movies, or pictures, unless this exposure is work related."

108

Some thoughts.  Love ya, Dave.  However, you opinion seems rather unqualified, and if there are experiences in your life I do not know about that help to more strongly qualify your opinion, then my humble apologies.  You're not a medical doc and you've not been in combat that I know of... and I know you want to help our troops who suffer from their experiences.

In the 80's, When I was about 9 or 10, there was a song called "Nineteen" by Paul Hardcastle... it's a pretty cool song even by today's standards (not the cheesy 80 beat, but the originality of it would still work today) it was in the Top 40 for several weeks from what I remember... from YouTube:

http://goo.gl/2PS9ml

At the time I was fascinated by all things military, not thinking then that I would have spent what is going on 22+ years in the Army and Army Reserves (but I did want to be a scientist, which I also have become).  In Nineteen, the narrator introduces the term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

And I remember quite well euphemistic language by Carlin--My older sister introduced Carlin to me at about the same age ("rat shit, bat shit, dirty old twat, six bloody rags tied in a knot... yay, lizard shit!  Fuck!").

His point was not to minimize PTSD as a term because he equated it with the older more harsh terms like shell shock and battle fatigue.  His point was entirely political and should not be taken as specifically criticizing people who claim PTSD. 

Pain and suffering are relative and perception is absolutely someone's reality.  Blacks today think the system is oppressive and purposely stacked against them, but they never experienced the true horrors of slavery.  But their reaction to what they perceive is real... ask Christopher Lane... oh, you can't.  Ask his girlfriend. 

In many ways it is the same way with PTSD sufferers.  Like many phenomena in this world, the effects of PTSD follow a gradient--a Gaussian distribution/bell curve.  I know several US military killers (in the shit, who have dealt death on a massive scale and who have also been shit on) who show absolutely no PTSD at all, and I know several who have extreme symptoms... all the way to those who have committed suicide or have murdered others.

Recently Peter Orszag, Obama's former CBO director (Wikipedia),

http://goo.gl/Dsdxk9

writing out his sphere of direct knowledge, wrote an article about debunking Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours to achieve professional level expertise in a skill... from Bloomberg:

http://goo.gl/Q498Ve

Any serious person... any street smart person... would understand that the 10,000 hour mark isn't a hard and fast rule, yet tons of people took what Gladwell "discovered" as a fundamental life truth, including it seems, Orszag--although I suspect that as a ivory tower type he was somewhat skeptical of Gladwell, thinking to smugly to himself, " woe is the person who only gets 9,999 hours--he'll never be a Michael Jordan!"  Of course, a thalidomide baby might have some problems becoming Tiger Woods just like a black person might struggle becoming the KKK's Imperial Dragon Lord of Lords, or whatever they call themselves.  

So, along comes  David Epstein who provides a foil to Gladwell's rule, and says genes are the most important factor, not practice hours.

Well holeeeee shit.  On one hand we have ourselves Gladwell, who is a journalist (and a VERY excellent story teller--buy/borrow all of his books now), who has no real practical knowledge of excelling in athleticism in statistics, or in science and the scientific method.  Gladwell is not really the most qualified to make this discovery of 10,000 hours = stud/genius.

On the other hand we have Epstein, who from what I gather on his book cover has an environmental science background and who also was a top athlete (in both cases, like me, actually.. kudos to me).  Still, he is not a geneticist any more than I am.

My point?

My point is this.  Orszag relied on two other people to try to synthesize an original assessment... and he appears like an idiot to me.  No, shit, people!  Your genetics matter in how good of an athlete you might be!  In Gladwell's defense, his book was not at all only about athletes... it was much more about 10,000 hours for Steve Jobs and Bill Gates having access to technology that few had back in the 70's-80's during their formative years, and Gladwell does use statistics well to advocate for his case.  Key word "advocate" and the word "cherry pick" also go well together.

Dave, I just don't feel you're are knowledgeable enough, like Orszag, to truly write on this issue.  At least Gladwell and Epstein use primary source materials to make their arguments.  Hey, we all have opinions, and all of our opinions have value to the critical thinking among us who can evaluate and synthesize, but in the end....  most opinions just fucking stink like assholes because most are un-fucking-qualified and most people are not able to salvage the value from these shitty opinions.

PTSD is a real human disorder as others have pointed out, whether it is the consequence of a "natural course of events" like exposure to extreme violence.

 Many "natural" causes have extreme effects... and by the way, what is an "unnatural" sequence of cause and effect?  But, I'll play:

1. hammer on bug naturally smashes bug
2. bullet propelled by hot gases has a lot of kinetic energy and will naturally cause physical trauma to soft tissue
3.  lighting a match and dropping it onto a couch can naturally burn the house down

I understand the tendency to be skeptical.  I'm a true disciple for Karl Popper and Nassim Taleb, and frequently, our skepticism is wrong... we are wrong (but better to be wrong some of the time than to ever have been a sucker).  Which is OK, because we don't have PTSD-derived nightmares, chemical addictions, relationship problems, jail time, and self-inflicted burials.

It fucking pisses me off when I see a drone pilot claim he has PTSD for whacking Taliban from Las Vegas Nevada.  But, hey, maybe that fuck was so week minded and privelegde that the kid actually did get a serious disorder from it.  None the less, the dude killed a lot of our enemy, and if he feel he needs psychiatric help and the STIGMA and LEGAL consequences (like possessing no firearms) of being diagnosed with a mental condition, well, I can live with that, and I will support him.  It is much better we PROFESSIONALLY treat these "questionable" people than end up with innocent people being killed like Chris Kyle.

PTSD is not a natural human condition.  It goes far beyond PTS, which all of us have faced in our lives--perhaps multiple times.  My drunk dad beat the fuck out me and my siblings and mom regularly.  That is PTS, although in weaker people (given genetic and environmental factors like age and LACK of earlier progressive exposure to other trauma like being grounded for putting a Timberback Rattlesnake in your asshole neighbor's mailbox when you were , getting beat down by your asshole dad can certainly cause PTSD.

please follow me @peeteysdee... Once in a while I Tweet something funny.

I'm off to play some Game of Thrones on PSP3 and drink some LAGUNITAS Little Sumpin Wild... one more level and I get to fuck Sansa in the ass while she goes down on Cersei. \m/

109 Apparently, we go to war to fiddle fuck around instead of winning and getting out. Sand might be more plentiful for that. Shameful, the decision makers, and that goes for you too John Boehner you gutless wimp. Shut it down and let it stay that way until there is a complete defunding of ObamaCare (sp) and b) a budget from Sen Reid.

110 Dave, I'm a psych RN who works with vets and other folks with PTSD, which I agree is tossed around too much, I challenge the assertion it is not a 'thing.' Tis so. The disorder refers to a breakdown in normal or effective coping mechanisms. Where someone who wasn't assaulted sexually may react to a touch on the arm from a stranger with mild annoyance at the invasion of personal space, the rape survivor may become irrationally violent. Or, y'know...they won't. Like every other goddamn thing in the DSM 5 and even the Physician's Desk Reference, all these things are about money ; in this case, getting the goddamned insurance companies (sorry, but, like I said, RN; insurance companies and us don't get on so well) to cough up money for treatment for people so shell-shocked they can't help it when they're sleep walking and STILL violent due to fear for their life/safety. I dunno, maybe I've been in the weeds for too long, but I'd rather have a diagnosis sit unused on the shelf until we need it to bullshit our way to more treatment days for a patient, rather than approach the insurance companies or court, dick in hand, and beg "please sir may I have some more?" Because The Middle Class.

111 Wait who the fuck is Dave. Crap. I'm so racist against rodeo clowns I'm talking to the wrong moron. Whoever the original freaking OP is, that's who I'm addressing and if you disagree you're still racist and the Middle Class.

112 Shit it was Dave? Whatever. Newly unlurked morons are morons.