June 07, 2013
— Open Blogger In "The Day of the Jackal" a mole high inside the French govt. is supplying info to the assassin. Det. Lebel ferrets out the mole.
Afterwards, a minister asks him about the investigation.
Minister: ... one thing: how did you know whose telephone to tap?
Lebel: I didn't, so I tapped all of them.
---------------
The Prism revelations blew my mind yesterday and I went on a twitter rant. Ace asked me to flesh them out for an info post.
Why listen to me?
I was trained in Communications Intelligence when I was in the Air Force. I worked at NSA while in the AF. I worked for a civilian NSA contractor after I left the AF. And this field is a reading hobby of mine. Other than reading, not involved since 1980. I probably know more about it than most journalists writing on it.
Executive Summary:
Holy. Crap.
--------------
Here's the main article. It goes to the despised WaPo but they deserve THESE hits.
Note that a huge amount of non US data flows through the US because the US has so much internet equipment.
Here's what caught my eye as the BIG DEALS from the story
"President’s Daily Brief cited Prism data in ***1,477*** articles last year."
(of course, Obama doesn't read the daily brief all that often...)
4 articles a day in the PDB have some or all of their sourcing from Prism.
NSA relies on Prism as its leading source of raw material, accounting for nearly 1 in 7 intelligence reports!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only reason I stopped at 27 "!" is the 140 char limit in Twitter. Most people don't understand what a massive intelligence agency NSA is. After Pearl Harbor, the US vowed not to get caught by a surprise attack again. After nuclear weapons a surprise attack isn't survivable. Simply put, NSA has had as much money as it wanted (often not shown on the budget) since the early 1950s.
So it's big and collects all sorts of electronic data in all sorts of ways. That ONE SOURCE could generate 1/7th of all reports... I can't describe how much that blows me away!
Remember NSA is supposed to collect FOREIGN intelligence. Prism is supposed to be 51% likely to be foreign - not that anybody checks.
Twitter is supposed to be Prism free. (that just means NSA will take stuff and not say anything) (It's A Secret)
It's legal for you to be scooped up by Prism if you're 1 or 2 connections (Kevin Bacon style) away from a legit foreign target.
SKYPE? Sure, given the limitations I'm guessing most of the time Prism will let legally them listen to those calls.
(Before WW2, the Feds would go to the ATT office and collect all the overseas telegrams they wanted*. I don't think there was any enabling legislation - ATT and the Feds just came to an understanding.)
(*they mainly wanted diplomatic traffic. But I don't know that ATT ever said no to a request for anything else.)
(The NSA has excellent working relationships with other country's, similar, intel agencies. If you think the NSA doesn't see intel from the UK's GCHQ that the NSA can't legally collect...)
---------------------
What do I think?
1. It should be possible for the Feds to do this.
2. If the Patriot Act allowed it, there are certainly quite a few congresscritter who are surprised by that. We had to pass that bill to find out we were going to do this?!
3. It looks like the current oversight is abominable and a new law to allow this sort of data collection should be debated in Congress.
4. CBS says Prism info stopped a 16 backpack bomb attack in the NY subways a couple of years ago. We need a debate in Congress on whether the drawbacks of Prism* are worth these rewards.
*an amazing boon to tyranny.
(follow ME! @ComradeArthur)
Posted by: Open Blogger at
05:49 PM
| Comments (283)
Post contains 658 words, total size 4 kb.
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 05:55 PM (GEICT)
1. It should be possible for the Feds to do this.
Possible as in technologically feasible, or as in ought to be allowed to do so?
Posted by: Grey Fox at June 07, 2013 05:55 PM (0kU93)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 05:56 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: PRISM at June 07, 2013 05:56 PM (hpYnL)
Interesting. So if I ever commented at, say, Gates of Vienna - which Anders Breivik made two comments on - then PRISM owns my ass.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 05:58 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: Tobacco Road at June 07, 2013 05:58 PM (4Mv1T)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:00 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:00 PM (5YUSx)
Posted by: NR Pax at June 07, 2013 06:01 PM (U+O64)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:01 PM (11YYx)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 07, 2013 06:01 PM (/oogq)
Posted by: Ammendment IV at June 07, 2013 06:02 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 07, 2013 06:02 PM (CQnAL)
Posted by: NSA at June 07, 2013 06:02 PM (fsLdt)
Posted by: The littl shyning man at June 07, 2013 06:03 PM (PH+2B)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:03 PM (11YYx)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 07, 2013 06:03 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: Thrawn at June 07, 2013 06:04 PM (JqnAE)
GLENN: IÂ’ve heard conflicting reports on this and I would like to get your opinion, because I believe I know what this [system] is capable of. They are saying that, two things: One, “oh, no, theyÂ’re just connecting the dots. They are not ‑‑ they donÂ’t have access to any conversations or anything.” Then on the other side of that IÂ’ve heard “They can take every keystroke. So in other words, you start writing an e‑mail and you can delete, delete, delete, delete, and theyÂ’ll have what you wrote and all of the deletes if they care to open those packages.” True or false?
BINNEY: ThatÂ’s true. I mean, their statement about we donÂ’t have content is an outright lie. I mean, thatÂ’s been going on ‑‑
PAT: Wow.
BINNEY: ‑‑ the NARIS devices from 2003 give them that data. Even the telecoms. If you looked at that report on PRISM, they were requesting information like e‑mails, you know, videos, all kinds. ThatÂ’s all content.
GLENN: So, Bill, they have ‑‑ I know this. We started getting on this because we had Michael Chertoff and John Ashcroft on in the days when Bush was still in office and neither of them would go online. Neither of them would have a phone either and they just laughed at me. And they were like, “If you knew what we could do, you wouldnÂ’t have it either.” And we started talking about it at that point.
BINNEY: Yeah.
GLENN: And so it wonÂ’t really stop, because how do you dismantle something like this? First of all, for all of those members of the media that were talking about these things as a conspiracy theory, what the hell did they build the Utah information vault for? How do you dismantle something like this?
I listened to Sen. Lindsey Graham give his testimony and I thought to myself, “Gee, Lindsey, what is it that they have on you?”
BINNEY: Yeah.
GLENN: “What is it they have on you because this doesnÂ’t make any ‑‑ what youÂ’re saying is totalitarian in its end.”
BINNEY: I agree, Glenn. I mean, itÂ’s really disturbing, what heÂ’s saying. I mean, I couldnÂ’t understand why he couldnÂ’t stand up for the Constitution.
PAT: Yeah.
GLENN: So how do you end it? So how do you end it? Does it end?
BINNEY: I mean, itÂ’s going to take radical action by the people just to vote these idiots out of office.
GLENN: But they ‑‑ again, I go back to what George Bush said to me, you know, “my hands are ‑‑ my hands are pretty much tied, I have no real decisions.”??? The rest of the interview is at The Blaze, "NSA whistleblower". Video, and transcript if you prefer to read it.
Fun times, folks.
Posted by: Beverly at June 07, 2013 06:04 PM (D1BYL)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 07, 2013 06:04 PM (CQnAL)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:04 PM (5YUSx)
I have no children and with some luck, will be dead sooner than later -- ergo, not my problem. Americans demonstrate in election after election that, despite load protestations to the contrary, they are pretty happy on the road to serfdom.
Posted by: deadman at June 07, 2013 06:05 PM (Zf0v/)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:05 PM (xw77v)
Posted by: Beverly at June 07, 2013 06:05 PM (D1BYL)
Anarcho-tyranny.
The government has no interest in catching low-level foreign terrorists. A terrorist who kills a couple kids and mutilates a few dozen more can be used to support more funding for anti-terrorist efforts and community outreach. That is, to support more government.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 06:06 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: waldo at June 07, 2013 06:06 PM (dHIHO)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:06 PM (5YUSx)
----
Scotch does that to some folks..., mostly Irish.
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 07, 2013 06:06 PM (aDwsi)
How does that square with Radical Islam "having so cells in the western hemisphere"?
Fuck Obama hypocritical ass apologize to Dubya yet on FOREIGN surveillance?
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:06 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 06:07 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:07 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:07 PM (5YUSx)
Could have been "packs of lone wolves" again....
Ogabe roots for the other team...
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:08 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Tobacco Road at June 07, 2013 06:08 PM (4Mv1T)
Posted by: LIV at June 07, 2013 06:08 PM (dvRYt)
PRISM works on the idea of association. Suspect as a result of association with a known suspect.
In other words, guilt by association. . . in other words, isn't that what Senator McCarthy was doing, trying to connect the dots, trying to establish associations between people known to be a member of the Communist Party, and those sympathetic to it's ideology?
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 07, 2013 06:08 PM (MXKAp)
That's quite funny, since Mark Steyn's already used the Tsarnaevs to prove the whole thing is a stuttering clusterfuck.
(His point is actually "they're trying to use the NSA to cover for the fact that front-line law enforcement is no longer allowed to keep an eye on Muslims, and that can't end well", but I'll bash Rove with it anyway).
Posted by: Ian S. at June 07, 2013 06:09 PM (OevbG)
If you don't not speak it? Then there is no motherfucking point in gathering this information because the country you are purportedly protecting no longer exists.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:09 PM (Gk3SS)
--------------------
... and where you are and where they are, and what time you mailed it, what time they received it.
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 07, 2013 06:09 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:09 PM (xw77v)
Barky Ogabe- I need Prism to fight terror....
Uncle Jan Neopolitino-hey you GOP veteran YOU ARE THE TERROR
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:09 PM (LRFds)
(And WTF does he mean in the statement about what George Bush said to him?)
GLENN: And so it wonÂ’t really stop, because how do you dismantle something like this? First of all, for all of those members of the media that were talking about these things as a conspiracy theory, what the hell did they build the Utah information vault for? How do you dismantle something like this?
[. . .]GLENN: So how do you end it? So how do you end it? Does it end?
BINNEY: I mean, itÂ’s going to take radical action by the people just to vote these idiots out of office.
GLENN: But they ‑‑ again, I go back to what George Bush said to me,
you know, “my hands are ‑‑ my hands are pretty much tied, I have no real
decisions.” Who is going to shut it down? It’s really not about the elected
officials.
You know, one thing I thought of was I donÂ’t believe for a second Chief Justice John Roberts, because IÂ’ve read the ‑‑ IÂ’ve read the [Obamacare] ruling. He was on the other side and didnÂ’t even have enough chance ‑‑ time to really even rout out all of the things that he was writing. He was on the other side, and he comes in for the ruling and heÂ’s blurry-eyed and looked like heÂ’s been crying all night. I mean, honestly: what gives me any kind of confidence that that man wasnÂ’t called up by somebody and says, “John, John, John. I donÂ’t think youÂ’re going to vote that way because of X, Y or Z.” I mean ‑‑
PAT: If they are doing this to Congress, they are certainly doing it to Supreme Court justices. I mean, thatÂ’s a possibility, right?
GLENN: Right.
BINNEY: Well, theyÂ’re all in it. I mean, itÂ’s not ‑‑ all their dataÂ’s being collected. So thatÂ’s certainly possible.
Posted by: Beverly at June 07, 2013 06:10 PM (D1BYL)
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 07, 2013 06:10 PM (/i3Yt)
So maybe I was right without knowing it, silly intuition. The Boston Bombing WAS the beginning of the implosion.
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:11 PM (KTytI)
he may not be an idiot....
Karl Rove is Barack Obama's chief enabler
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:11 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: anonymous irishman at June 07, 2013 06:11 PM (DJgfL)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 07, 2013 06:11 PM (/oogq)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:11 PM (xw77v)
Posted by: Tobacco Road at June 07, 2013 06:12 PM (4Mv1T)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:12 PM (5YUSx)
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes more nonsense ...... at June 07, 2013 06:12 PM (Jhcmf)
Posted by: rickl at June 07, 2013 06:13 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: Marmo at June 07, 2013 06:13 PM (pcgW1)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:13 PM (5YUSx)
-----------------
Wait..., do you mean tax-paid or that other stuff...., East TN stills are generally hidden in outhouses. Just saying...
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 07, 2013 06:13 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:13 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:13 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (ujux6)
PRISM is absolutely safe and benign to the American people and does not violate their rights.
And Obamacare will lower your insurance premiums.
And the IRS would never be used to target the political opponents of Obama.
And I promise I won't cum in your mouth.
Posted by: buzzion at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (LI48c)
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (5YUSx)
My trust in NSA died right around the time the IRS happily waved its dick in my face about fucking the teaparty....
fuck 'em all...
Civil Service Delenda Est
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am) at June 07, 2013 06:14 PM (08XhI)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 10:12 PM (5YUSx)
I keep going back to the article a bit ago about some obscure mathematician making a huge advance in determining the existence of prime number pairs. My first thought was there goes a metric fuckton of cyrptology.
Now I wonder if he didn't make that discovery for the NSA and they asked him to hold off on publication for a few years so they could get a huge leap on both decoding and creating new encryption standards.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:15 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: rickl at June 07, 2013 06:15 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 07, 2013 06:15 PM (/i3Yt)
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 07, 2013 06:15 PM (MXKAp)
I don't believe it and there are countermeasures Comrade...
good humint still trumps Elint
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:15 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Boone at June 07, 2013 06:15 PM (PSRI9)
Posted by: Chris at June 07, 2013 06:16 PM (PGWd+)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:16 PM (xw77v)
I call bullshit....
the Chinese hackers would not be a problem if the NSA were all that and a bag of chips...
The Hall of Mirrors is a tight ship and shines punching against soft targets but at the end of the day they aren't superman and RunRed still beats 'em
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:17 PM (LRFds)
The feds/Obama has me so angry and distrusting that I'm at the point where I want Anonymous to hack the shit out of everything and expose it all.
Posted by: soothsayer at June 07, 2013 06:18 PM (+oin+)
If encryption, especially over wireless, is 'smoothcracked' (i.e. can be cracked realtime) wireless is essentially telling everyone everything all the time (radio signals, folks!)
I wonder though, are there any technologies for networking that they use, such as, uh, ya know, CISCO that are, um, compromisable without them knowing it?
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:18 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: Dumb Monkey at June 07, 2013 06:18 PM (ZVGxp)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:18 PM (11YYx)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:19 PM (zPVBH)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:19 PM (xw77v)
Its like waggling your junk in the front window, and claiming an expectation of privacy when folks stare from the street.
Posted by: deadman at June 07, 2013 06:19 PM (Zf0v/)
Posted by: Lizzy at June 07, 2013 06:20 PM (jvnuj)
But the keystroke thing only applies to certain mediums, inherently. It is, however, completely black hat.
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:21 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:21 PM (xw77v)
Posted by: Kal Penn at June 07, 2013 06:21 PM (zPVBH)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 07, 2013 06:21 PM (Vk2pI)
Very very very simplified version of it is that the security systems that are supposedly unbreakable are based, in part, on exotic primes. Pretty much the only way to break these is to brute force it and absent quantum computing, that's not going to happen.
Primes come in pairs and some guy figured out that these pairs are always a maximum of 70 million apart. Guess what? Decoding just made massive leaps forward.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:21 PM (Gk3SS)
Which means only that you know what NSA stands for.
Luckily you know much more than any journalist.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at June 07, 2013 06:21 PM (z4m16)
BINGO....
and undersztand I don't think OFA told the Montgomery county bitch to datamine JtP in Ohio...she self-motivated and volunteered and THAT is the fucking problem....
if you asked her she'd proudly say just like the NSA is full of fine patriots pap "I was aiding my COUNTRY"
fuck 'em all burn it down
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:22 PM (LRFds)
Obama is listening in to all communication in the US, so what then, in Democratic logic, is the correct punishment?
Careful how you answer this question........
Posted by: PRISM at June 07, 2013 06:22 PM (Aif/5)
the pendulum will swing....of course it means good security will be a mega memory hog....
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:23 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 07, 2013 06:23 PM (aDwsi)
oh, plus, reporting from semi-Santa Monica.
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:23 PM (8lmkt)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:23 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:23 PM (11YYx)
But all of these things, the hint of security itself is wrapped up in the encrypted connection. The only way to have security on a cloud (read: virtual distributed systems across an open network) is through encrypted tcp.
If the NSA has indeed smoothcracked it, it doesn't actually matter if Google wants their stuff known or not.
But that's just the best possible answer for Google.
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (zPVBH)
This is a big deal indeed. Huge.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: sTevo, banned by PRISM at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (vroT8)
Posted by: Beto at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (MhA4j)
Posted by: Infidel [/i] at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (gqEUi)
Posted by: toby928© for TB at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (QupBk)
and the answer is of course "fuck google"....
and our side is too stupid to make it stick by denying Goggle's sweet sweet "free shit"
we're fucked on the bright side we get angry birds so there's that
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:24 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Lizzy at June 07, 2013 06:25 PM (jvnuj)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:25 PM (8lmkt)
Posted by: zsasz at June 07, 2013 06:25 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Baldy at June 07, 2013 06:25 PM (tyDFN)
Posted by: elizabethe at June 07, 2013 06:26 PM (qPCAa)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:26 PM (5YUSx)
Posted by: That Guy at June 07, 2013 06:26 PM (LYtpo)
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:26 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: George Orwell what knows your telescreen is watching you fap at June 07, 2013 06:26 PM (xw77v)
Posted by: Ragamuffin at June 07, 2013 06:27 PM (fzFF6)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:27 PM (8lmkt)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:27 PM (11YYx)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 10:03 PM (11YYx)
I'd rather not they, you or I and mine die. The 2A is in the constitution for a reason. But if I had to die I'd want to do it with style and not with a whimper.
Posted by: Joethefatman™ (@joethefatman1) at June 07, 2013 06:27 PM (MnSla)
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 10:24 PM (QTHTd)
You know what's interesting? Apparently he brute forced it.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:27 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes more nonsense ...... at June 07, 2013 06:28 PM (Jhcmf)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:28 PM (zPVBH)
And not Ryan.
Which means "sympathetic to amnesty" wasn't that black mark.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 06:28 PM (QTHTd)
“With all due respect, senator, I don’t think this is an appropriate setting for me to discuss that issue.”
Senator Kirk responded that “the correct answer would be, ‘No, we stayed within our lane and I’m assuring you we did not spy on members of Congress.’” For some reason, the attorney general felt unable to say that. So I think we all know what the answer to the original question really is.
Posted by: E Howard Hunt at June 07, 2013 06:28 PM (e8kgV)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 07, 2013 06:29 PM (/oogq)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:29 PM (5YUSx)
or who doesn't have at least one relation with something embarrassing that could be revealed. Not possible.
Agreed. But the media won't report on any dems/progressives with wtf releations. Exh. 1, TGF's illegal relatives on welfare.
Posted by: Infidel [/i] at June 07, 2013 06:30 PM (gqEUi)
***
I would imagine an enterprising State Attorney General could give Google the Microsoft treatment...and then some.
Interesting that has not happened yet.
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 10:28 PM (zPVBH)
They learned from Microsoft that you have to start bribing government officials early and often to keep it from happening to them.
Posted by: buzzion at June 07, 2013 06:30 PM (LI48c)
Posted by: sTevo, banned by PRISM at June 07, 2013 06:30 PM (sYewh)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:30 PM (GEICT)
You know, the New York Times, their editorial. It was a cry for help. Strange, but I think...
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:30 PM (KTytI)
Metadata my ass.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:31 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Fat albert at June 07, 2013 06:31 PM (i7B17)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:31 PM (zPVBH)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:31 PM (8lmkt)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:32 PM (11YYx)
This is why we need an Article Five Convention.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 06:32 PM (QTHTd)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:32 PM (GEICT)
Obviously you shouldn't have done whatever it is you did now should you.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:32 PM (Gk3SS)
This is the thing I find most troublesome, you essentially have "100+ (not 6) degrees of Kevin Bacon" running in the background 24/7 on your entire electronic life, but you aren't considered worthy of seeing the product.
Joe read Allen's blog (a pure hypothetical since Allen doesn't have a blog), and Allen referenced Sven, but Sven quoted Beck and Beck linked to a zerohedge article that mentioned a Robert Spencer post that could be considered disrespectful of the muz so Joe is probably a potential hate criminal.
AUDIT TIME!
Posted by: Weimar Republican at June 07, 2013 06:33 PM (Cnqmv)
Posted by: blaster at June 07, 2013 06:33 PM (c28BI)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:34 PM (8lmkt)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:34 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am) at June 07, 2013 06:35 PM (08XhI)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:35 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: E Howard Hunt at June 07, 2013 06:35 PM (e8kgV)
Posted by: That Guy at June 07, 2013 06:35 PM (LYtpo)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:35 PM (8lmkt)
what do you want to talk about?
My wife's been gone about 6 days now...
I'm cranky and now the reason I said "RunRed" is pretty obvious to all I hope...
you okay?
Shit gets better or so I say over and over...and the cyst in my back is not growing just nagging harder
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:36 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:36 PM (zPVBH)
The wife has recently been diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Been misdiagnosed for MONTHS. Several of the side effects are REALLY not conducive to...strengthening the marriage bond. Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 10:34 PM (GEICT)
Gah. As someone who has nearly died from that twice now, I understand completely what you mean. It sucks. Out loud.
On the plus side? A few months from now when her levels have evened out that will, errr, resolve. Let's go with that term.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:36 PM (Gk3SS)
but I wonder how much of that data is actually processed. That's a shit-ton of data. I mean, yeah, it's still there, but it would take a million monkeys at a million computers to process it all...right?
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at June 07, 2013 06:36 PM (RE4At)
Posted by: rickl at June 07, 2013 06:36 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:37 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Ian S. at June 07, 2013 06:37 PM (OevbG)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 07, 2013 06:37 PM (CQnAL)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 10:34 PM (8lmkt)
This shall not stand.
Bannion! Fetch booze and cake stat!
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:37 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 10:31 PM (8lmkt)
Patience Peaches. Comrade Arthur put up this post and I'm letting it breathe a bit.
Posted by: CDR M at June 07, 2013 06:37 PM (dKV5k)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:37 PM (11YYx)
Posted by: grognard at June 07, 2013 06:38 PM (szNs2)
Bye-bye Penguins. Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am)
Thanks, Vendette, I needed that. And, YESH!!!!! Bruins sweep the Penguins. That is teh awesome. Suddenly I am all happy happy joy joy again.
Surely this will excuse one more little can of cheap swill, eh???
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:38 PM (8lmkt)
-------------------------
Uh..., not exactly. Primes do not 'come in pairs'. Twin primes are primes that different by 2, for example: 5 and 7. To know that the number of prime twins which exist within some bounds is finite, would reduce the time to crack a prime-based code, if the bounds are known. At least..., that's the way I see it.
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 07, 2013 06:38 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: Baldy at June 07, 2013 06:39 PM (tyDFN)
Once, I was surfing the internet, b4 there was an internet, and found myself looking at training schedules for units very far away.
I freaked, unplugged my 'puter, and left it off for a week.
Posted by: John Smith (D) at June 07, 2013 06:39 PM (i7B17)
AUDIT TIME!
******
And how does Joe defend himself, when the dossier generated based on all of those sources is much more detailed than anything Joe could recreate using his memory,r eceipts, etc? What defense in there to an electronically depicted thought-crime?
Posted by: Lizzy at June 07, 2013 06:39 PM (jvnuj)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:39 PM (GEICT)
Internet laughs about being spied on
http://preview.tinyurl.com/mcgqpqy
Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at June 07, 2013 06:39 PM (1hekh)
Peaches, sorry you had a rough day. Have a beer. c|~|
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at June 07, 2013 06:39 PM (RE4At)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:40 PM (5YUSx)
Posted by: notropis at June 07, 2013 06:40 PM (OYZdC)
As I recall, he'd convinced the Soviets not to keep their troops on Romanian soil. He was still allied under the Warsaw Pact; but he ran the country in his own way, with little respect paid to Russian policy.
Sort of like how France worked under NATO.
Posted by: boulder toilet hobo at June 07, 2013 06:40 PM (QTHTd)
okay, my whole week sucked donkey bawls and our country is lost to us and nobody will talk to me.
Ditto here and now the puter is fkn up. Maybe it's time for bed and start over tomorow.
Posted by: Infidel [/i] at June 07, 2013 06:40 PM (gqEUi)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 07, 2013 06:41 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: Ragamuffin at June 07, 2013 06:41 PM (fzFF6)
Posted by: willow at June 07, 2013 06:41 PM (nqBYe)
Note that Obama, and the media, keep talking about the phone program and PRISM at the same time to confuse people, and to lie without being so obvious.
Like immigration and border security? That could never happen.
Posted by: Slow Poke Rodriguez at June 07, 2013 06:42 PM (i7B17)
Posted by: Infidel at June 07, 2013 10:40 PM (gqEUi)
There's nothing wrong with your computer. We're just updating our information on you. It'll just be a few minutes.
Posted by: NSA at June 07, 2013 06:42 PM (dKV5k)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:42 PM (GEICT)
My wife was diagnosed 3 months ago with that. And all this time I thought she was crazy oops I mean uhm PMS-ing
Posted by: Joethefatman™ (@joethefatman1) at June 07, 2013 06:42 PM (MnSla)
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 06:42 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: E Howard Hunt at June 07, 2013 06:43 PM (e8kgV)
I was the Intelligence Oversight Monitor and Trainer when I was Senior Intelligence Analyst at Bad Aibling Station, Germany (again, do a Google search on it), and again when I had the same position as a USAF civilian (GS-12) at Beale AFB. In between those assignments, I ran the Cryptologic Services Group at Special Operations Command, briefly at Prince Sultan AB in Saudi Arabia, and worked on target development at HSA HQ.
And in all that time, I never saw ANY activity that was in any way a threat to US citizens' rights. In fact, I saw an absolute explosion of 'bad' when some dumb kids (that I had to prove had been adequately trained BY ME) collected phone sex with one terminal in the US, and another from her guy on some oil platform halfway around the world. The training regime was formal, rigorous, and completely serious: any infraction was immediately forwarded to NSA's Office of General Council for action (with the possibility of federal prosecution and PRISON).
Rights were respected and this protocol was treated as damn near religious dogma. I saw extreme over-reactions to on-the-line scenarios, just to be safe from the 'bad' that comes, even if collection is inadvertent.
I have a lot more to say on this whole thing, if anybody wants to hear from me on this.
Posted by: Bluesman at June 07, 2013 06:43 PM (JNtXS)
Posted by: elizabethe at June 07, 2013 06:43 PM (qPCAa)
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at June 07, 2013 06:44 PM (RE4At)
Posted by: no good deed at June 07, 2013 06:44 PM (mjR67)
What is Anonymous going to do about this?
Posted by: RiverC at June 07, 2013 10:42 PM (KTytI)
They're a joke. They talk big about being anti-government but not one peep out of them during all of these scandals. One would think it would be right up their alley.
Posted by: NSA at June 07, 2013 06:44 PM (dKV5k)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:44 PM (zPVBH)
Posted by: Boone at June 07, 2013 06:44 PM (tIyK2)
Hat the key is an ART V undermines the Union period and the naysayers walk away....
don't fear the enscoamfening embrace it....
the United States is TOO powerful to let be evil...break it up
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:44 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:45 PM (zPVBH)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 06:45 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 10:34 PM (GEICT) .......................
75mcg's of Levothyroxine. Once daily prior to meal in the morning. Gosh I wish all problems were this easy. Your wife's cure is easy.
Posted by: Molly k. at June 07, 2013 06:45 PM (WgeYS)
At one point in high school I was down to 750 calories a day and two and a half hours of exercising on top of cheering and basketball and I was gaining weight.
The next piece of shit who starts up the whole losing weight is easy just eat less and exercise more will deserve me tapping into PRISM to find the address to send the mind drone for the boomy boomy.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but she needs to prepare herself for the fact that losing weight will forever be dramatically more difficult.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:46 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Nasty Skank Ass-eaterz at June 07, 2013 06:46 PM (i7B17)
still in office and neither of them would go online. Neither of them
would have a phone either and they just laughed at me. And they were
like, “If you knew what we could do, you wouldn’t have it either.”
they didn't trust the guys behind the curtain
Posted by: Jean at June 07, 2013 06:46 PM (CMlD4)
{{{elizabethe}}} you set the good example, I will do what I do and be teh cautionary tale.
Posted by: Peaches at June 07, 2013 06:46 PM (8lmkt)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 07, 2013 06:46 PM (5YUSx)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 07, 2013 06:46 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: Gerard Harbison at June 07, 2013 06:47 PM (khAMx)
Congress needs to ask if PRISM was used to collect info on groups that oppose the President's policies, who asked for it and what they used it for
Posted by: thunderb at June 07, 2013 06:47 PM (nH8jP)
There's nothing wrong with your computer. We're just updating our information on you. It'll just be a few minutes.
FU. Wish I would have copied the big bird someone posted earlier today. And just for good measure, FU Susan Rice, chinless and the Iranian Commie Val Rat.
Posted by: Infidel [/i] at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (gqEUi)
grognard at June 07, 2013 10:38 PM
It's what Fernadez wrote on PJMedia, The Broadband Empire and the Game of Drones.
It's about taking down the 'nodes'. The people who organize, who get things done, who get results not just those who would take up arms.. (and it's already too late, probably)
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (MXKAp)
you're relying on the monastic like zeal of the military side of the house offsetting the civil service rot...
and for a LOT of years I was in the same boat...
I have farmboys in the foster family.....
I do not trust the machine anymore.
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Reader C.J. Burch writes more nonsense ...... at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (Jhcmf)
Hahaha! Yes, I could see that happening.
Posted by: no good deed at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (mjR67)
Posted by: The Political Ring at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (Vk2pI)
I agree it should be possible, or we should control it because it is possible, but after the last week where we learned of the weaponization of the bureaucracy, I'm with Rush: this is a coup.
Buzzfeed says the subway attack was stopped by old fashioned police work. And must I say it again? Fort Hood, Boston. Terrorism was staring them in the face and they ignored it!
Posted by: PJ at June 07, 2013 06:48 PM (ZWaLo)
Posted by: Ragamuffin at June 07, 2013 06:49 PM (fzFF6)
Posted by: Baldy at June 07, 2013 06:50 PM (tyDFN)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 07, 2013 06:50 PM (/oogq)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 07, 2013 06:51 PM (11YYx)
Posted by: Infidel at June 07, 2013 10:48 PM (gqEUi)
There is the one BC posted on the yehaw group:
,|,, (><
,,|,
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at June 07, 2013 06:51 PM (RE4At)
they are not talking about it b/c "silly we're in charge it's okay!"
You know the GOP can ratfuck the left by either reembracing unions or Latinos wholesale...and if we ever get power back we have a duty to out donk the donks for a few years to prove the point...
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 06:52 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: 18-1 at June 07, 2013 06:52 PM (zPVBH)
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at June 07, 2013 06:52 PM (RE4At)
Posted by: GGE of the Moron Horde, NC Chapter at June 07, 2013 06:53 PM (RE4At)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 07, 2013 10:50 PM (/oogq)
Pie is an acceptable substitute for those situations when the cake is a lie.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 07, 2013 06:53 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Gingy at June 07, 2013 06:55 PM (aH+zP)
Posted by: Beagle at June 07, 2013 06:55 PM (sOtz/)
Posted by: troyriser at June 07, 2013 06:58 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: PJ at June 07, 2013 06:58 PM (ZWaLo)
Posted by: Sean Bannion, Channeling Agent Cooper at June 07, 2013 06:58 PM (/oogq)
ever notice that the pub who are cool with PRISM are the same ones that refer to the tea party as "wacko birds"
Posted by: thunderb at June 07, 2013 07:01 PM (nH8jP)
--
While I understand the reasoning, the thought of a convention scares the hell out of me. I have no faith that Obama-types would not find a way to wield power over it. After recent days and weeks, I think its easy to imagine how it could happen. I don't trust the process, and if the wrong people steer an Article V, we are completely screwed.
Posted by: Mayday at June 07, 2013 07:02 PM (eHc+1)
Posted by: Lizzy at June 07, 2013 10:39 PM (jvnuj)
There is no defense for a thought crime comrade, and there is even less defense when we have an electronic trail that you cannot dispute because you don't know it exists, and they are establishing a system of secret courts that convict you in absentia.
Posted by: Weimar Republican at June 07, 2013 07:03 PM (Cnqmv)
Posted by: Jean at June 07, 2013 07:03 PM (CMlD4)
Posted by: Beagle at June 07, 2013 07:04 PM (sOtz/)
Posted by: Weirddave at June 07, 2013 07:04 PM (aH+zP)
Posted by: thunderb at June 07, 2013 07:05 PM (nH8jP)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 07, 2013 07:05 PM (Vk2pI)
the goatfuckers "beat" us in Iraq and 'ghani using old style tradecraft....
that said at the end of the day I suspect that is b/c perversely democrats have softer ROE for foreign and domestic RadIslam operatives than they want for domestic GOP
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 07:07 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Con in Canada at June 07, 2013 07:17 PM (VPiZq)
A virus wouldn't work, hell the backend servers probably run on an exotic trusted OS. You need a virus that affects everyone else.
Posted by: Jean at June 07, 2013 07:35 PM (CMlD4)
if Homeland Security states that returning vets, gun rights advocates and tea party members were the biggest domestic threat to security, as they did in 2009, anyone working at NSA would think they were doing God's work when they spied on political opponents of the JEF
Posted by: thunderb at June 07, 2013 07:37 PM (nH8jP)
correct and true patriots would have blown the system up but didn't....
hell look Venona was ran off the books b/c the Army knew the FDR regime was infiltrated....
THAT is fucking patriotism not this shit
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 07, 2013 07:44 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: rickl at June 07, 2013 07:46 PM (sdi6R)
I did not read this thread but this shit burns me up! I told anyone who would listen, the reason we invaded Iraq was to put some CIA types in the neighborhood. It was needed. Make that point for goodness sake! Have a God darn discussion. We need intelligence assets. We need some Muslim folks who get it. It may be a long search, but shit. I am sick to death of passing good money after bad to find a person we can trust over there. Could it be we are greasing the wrong wheels?
And will someone tell me what the hell we are bothering with maintaining a shit load of nukes, if we cant find the balls to use them after our nation has been attacked? Its so weak.
No, lets invade every God fearing Americans privacy to make sure we look as smart as the dumb ass youareapeeins! WTF has become of this nations leadership?
Posted by: disgusted at June 07, 2013 07:48 PM (fmCel)
I posted all of <197> as prologue to say this: we USED to do quarterly training and certification, and it was treated as holy as the Haj to a Muslim; it's your bounden duty, and you WILL be there. If not...decertification on your position, and you can dam' well go hand out basketballs at the base gym until you're right with Him again.
But my year and a half at Creech, I did some bullshit CBT course when I got the job, and again on that anniversary. It was not stringent, you could cheat if you wanted, and it was obvious nobody took it seriously. Something HAS changed.
And you are on-point when you say that the civvie culture at NSA goes with political wind. After 9-11 (and I was stationed there during that time, as you know), the place was as conservative as any place in Maryland COULD be, and the patriotic fervor and warfighting mindset was tempered with an abiding respect for oversight, and law-abiding pursuit of The Mission. No rules were 'relaxed'; no standards gave way for convenience or efficiency.
But lately...I don't see a lot of concern shown about 14th Amenment, Executive Order 12333 (signed by Reagan in 1983), or the Air Force reg governing proper collection. The Mission uber alles.
Under that climate, I can see how people might get the idea that 'we hunt terrorists on behalf of the People; we simply can NOT violate their rights at the same time we're protecting them.'
Posted by: Bluesman at June 07, 2013 07:51 PM (JNtXS)
I am entirely appalled by what is going on. I warned after the election last fall that for the first time in our history we have a president who has the power to make himself dictator. I'm not claiming he desires this (yet!), but who knows what will happen if his puppet master Jarrett decides that she doesn't want to give up power in 2017.
I truly fear that we are on the road to civil war.
Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at June 07, 2013 07:58 PM (Y6qC4)
Oh wait......
Posted by: Anchovy at June 07, 2013 08:00 PM (dKrTw)
Posted by: rickl at June 07, 2013 08:05 PM (sdi6R)
And then.. I skip around the net to see headlines about some ex N Seal who goes for a sex change. WTF. Who gives a shit about such a thing? How about those that died training to be a warrior? Damn media dopes. We need to yell that whole "I am mad as hell" at you assholes rant...
I am disgusted.
Posted by: disgusted at June 07, 2013 08:06 PM (fmCel)
Just to be clear, I bet the Seals are plenty pissed about the story. I was trying to say that fruit loops are held up as some sort of celebrity, when those that try but fail are looked down upon. It makes me sick.
Posted by: disgusted at June 07, 2013 08:17 PM (fmCel)
Posted by: Baldy at June 07, 2013 08:33 PM (tyDFN)
Posted by: Katja at June 07, 2013 09:07 PM (proFF)
Posted by: Fish at June 07, 2013 09:19 PM (K2rtt)
Posted by: Bronco Bama at June 07, 2013 09:37 PM (hHgxI)
Posted by: kzintius at June 07, 2013 10:19 PM (vj58q)
I'll go first:
86-87 - Defense Language Institute & Goodfellow AFB for training.
87-90 - Okinawa, as the worst Vietnamese linguist in USAF history.
90-91 - Wurtsmith AFB, Michigan, as a CE guy.
91-92 - Goodfellow AFB second go, to learn analysis.
92-95 - Misawa AB, 1st tour as an analyst; Able Flight; DPRK SME
95-99 - Bad Aibling Station, Sr Intel Analyst (SIA), Trueman's shift
99-03 - NSA; Iraq Military Team & Sig Research Tgt Development
03-06 - MacDill AFB, SOCOM CSG Chief; retired as MSgt.
06-07 - CENTCOM, Booz Allen contractor, J2, HVI Branch
07-11 - Beale AFB, SIA, GS-12, DCGS-2
12-13 - Creech AFB, Mission Support analyst
...and we just got back to Misawa AB, and it looks like out of the business for good, unless I catch a lucky break (which I'm known to do).
Your first name isn't Brad, is it?
Posted by: Bluesman at June 07, 2013 11:55 PM (JNtXS)
Bluesman, negative on Brad, but I did work with him for a while. We were on different sides of the planet.
85 - 86 - Goodbuddy
86-88 Augsburg/Sembach Ge
88-90 - MRSOC,San Antonio, Charlie Flt
90-91 - Skivvy Nine
91-95 - Ft Meade, USAFSSG, G42
95-01 - San Antonio, 33IOS
Posted by: Fish at June 08, 2013 05:10 AM (K2rtt)
Bluesman, did you know Prosser at Beale? Worked with him at 33rd before he went Mustang.
Posted by: Fish at June 08, 2013 05:18 AM (K2rtt)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 08, 2013 06:46 AM (5YUSx)
Whoops, that may have been too much info. Who the hell is kicking in my door...
Posted by: Pluskat's Dog at June 08, 2013 07:10 AM (Y6qC4)
And what difference would that make? As long as there are 34 Senators who are willing to put Party over Constitution, there IS NO CHECK absent a removal from office by force, whether supplied by the members of the military that still adhere to the Constitution (and there's an organized effort to run them out by Obama), or a citizen uprising.
Dispute that if you dare.
Posted by: SDN at June 08, 2013 09:49 AM (j5fvN)
But lately...I don't see a lot of concern shown about 14th Amenment, Executive Order 12333 (signed by Reagan in 1983), or the Air Force reg governing proper collection. The Mission uber alles."
Of course. There was a Republican in the White House.
Even the NSA is staffed by career civil servants, and those are Democrats by nature, Therefore, they will strictly follow the rules as long as they hamper the Republican, and "leak" when breaking the rules has the same result.
Posted by: SDN at June 08, 2013 09:53 AM (j5fvN)
Why do you seem to believe that CBS report about the prevented backpack bombs? Where did they get that information? Has it been independently confirmed and corroborated?
It's just a self-serving leak from the same people who are trying to make this whole thing go away--leaked to a source they knew would run with it because CBS always does their bidding. Why on Earth would you accord that report even 1% truth value?
Posted by: MartyJ at June 08, 2013 11:06 AM (7Wfcu)
Posted by: Chairman LMAO at June 08, 2013 11:28 AM (z8kfX)
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie ® at June 08, 2013 11:54 AM (1hM1d)
Posted by: wrg500 at June 08, 2013 12:39 PM (HTY5/)
Posted by: teapartydoc at June 09, 2013 05:30 AM (4U98b)
Posted by: Trialdog at June 09, 2013 07:52 AM (w5YEX)
Posted by: Katja at June 12, 2013 11:50 AM (proFF)
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Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 07, 2013 05:54 PM (GEICT)