Ace of Spades HQ

May 01, 2013

Ramesh Ponuru, Margaret Carlson Have An Honest Discussion About The Gosnell Affair
— Ace

Worth reading. Carlson, to her credit, concedes a lot of territory that a less honest hack would refuse to give an inch on.

She does start out poorly:

Margaret: Ramesh, I'm sensitive about your side criticizing mine for not jumping on the Kermit Gosnell case. By the time conservative critics were doing their criticizing, it had been covered (although I'm ashamed to say not by me; I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't). And conservatives were covering it in the meta sense -- writing about the coverage. That's because there is no fight from the other side. None. How could anyone support what Gosnell is accused of doing, never mind the conditions of filth and neglect, or the inhumanity to both mother and child?

But there is fight from "the other side," and futhermore, most of "the other side" is fighting with silence. They know they have no good answers, no water to douse the fire out, so they've settled on the tactic of suffocating the fire, denying it oxygen.

Which is the most dishonest form of fighting, after all. Silence is an admission that they know their side is in the wrong and couldn't possibly offer any plausible argument against that obvious fact, so instead they deliberately, and knowingly, decide to keep that a secret. They know their side is wrong on this, but rather than being candid and adult about it, they engage in a conspiracy of silence.

Now, once Carlson (a dyed in the wool liberal) offers that nonsense as her opening gambit, she's much more thoughtful and candid in the rest of the discussion.

Margaret: Let me answer the question you raise: Yes, we have gone too far. Since we're talking about what we wrote, during last year's Democratic convention I wrote about how terrible it was that Democrats took out of their platform that abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare." As I read the Gosnell case coverage, I've learned that late-term abortions aren't as rare as I thought. Gosnell is charged with repeatedly and openly killing babies born alive. That is something doctors who perform abortions sometimes have to contemplate. Just yesterday, a pro-life group released a video of a doctor in a Washington clinic explaining what would happen if the baby were accidentally born alive. He wasn't much different from Gosnell.
Ramesh: And of course this was an issue in Illinois when President Barack Obama was a state senator. He voted against legislation to clarify that infants who survive abortions should be protected, because he worried that it was inconsistent with abortion rights. It's a vote his defenders have been trying to explain away ever since.
Margaret: This is where a constitutional law professor can go wrong, way wrong, and it's something Obama must regret. I hope he does. When I look at the law and what's happening, I see Roe v. Wade on a collision course with our own eyes. The trimester construct is set akilter anytime you go into a neonatal unit. Babies live at 20 weeks. Someone -- the court, the states -- has to deal with the viability question. Roe was meant to prohibit abortions after viability and to protect a woman's primacy to decide before that. You might not agree with that, Ramesh, but there was a balancing of rights -- those of the mother and the fetus. That line has changed, and something should be done to address that.
The other huge problem is how wide the "health of mother" exception is. It can be anything -- age, emotional health, financial condition. The loopholes are so large a nine-month pregnant woman could go through them.

Overall, it's a good exchange, in which both participants have their Adult Hats on and discuss things without a whole bunch of Perfect Bullshit talking points.

Who would have guessed that conversations are a lot more productive when conducted in the spirit of honesty? Talking points, lies, hackery, all of it, tends to be a tit-for-tat game; once one opponent starts engaging in it, the other will usually begin offering up his own dishonest rhetoric.

On the other hand, there's Tamara Holder, and her strange threat to tell on Katie Pavlich for talkin' about her behind her back.

It occurs to me that there is a possible paradigm by which honesty can be encouraged and dishonesty discouraged.

I'm going to guess here that Margaret Carlson feels that, because this is a one-on-one written discussion, she's representing herself.

Two things flow from that: 1, if you're representing yourself, you feel more strongly compelled towards honesty and candor, because you're not just offering a position -- you're offering your own honor. That is to say, your reputation is on the line.

Further, if you're representing yourself, and not your tribe, 2, you don't feel as required to act as a spokesman/mouthpiece/shyster lawyer for third parties. Which you might feel compelled to offer if you are cast in the role of "defending the left's position on abortion," that is, representing millions of persons who are not yourself. You might give yourself the excuse that you have to offer up some bullshit spin, because The Left, as a group, has essentially hired you as Crisis Communications Manager.

It's a different set of ethics that attach when you're representing yourself as opposed to a group of others.

It might be helpful in interviews and debates to push people off one paradigm (acting as loyal mouthpiece for ten million clients) and into the more interesting and honest one (acting as a mouthpiece only for your own thoughts).

Who knows, maybe Tamara Holder could have been pushed off her thoughtless nonsense if Hannity badgered her to say what her personal beliefs were. That is, strip her of the armor that allows her to say thoughtless and stupid things (the idea that she's got 10 million NARAL members dependin' on her) and force her to just speak for herself.

Probably not, of course. It's probably dumb all the way down. But hey, maybe it's a useful experiment.

Posted by: Ace at 02:42 PM | Comments (159)
Post contains 1035 words, total size 6 kb.

1 Foist?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 01, 2013 02:43 PM (+z4pE)

2 First

Posted by: minometer at May 01, 2013 02:44 PM (Lg6yx)

"But there is fight from "the other side," and futhermore, most of "the other side" is fighting with silence. They know they have no good answers, no water to douse the fire out, so they've settled on the tactic of suffocating the fire, denying it oxygen."

Which is why the Koch brothers' "take over the media and use it to promote fiscal conservatism without all that immigration and social conservatism" stuff is going to be a non-starter, no matter how many newspapers they buy. They'll merely be imitating the legacy media they spent their money to buy.

Posted by: Karl at May 01, 2013 02:46 PM (U+vgB)

4 There really are no words for the depths of ethical depravity required to approve of Gosnell, his particular methods, or partial-birth abortion in general.

Posted by: Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. at May 01, 2013 02:47 PM (Zsw3g)

5 I watched Ramesh debate atheists on some dumb PBS show and I was impressed by his modest brilliance.

Posted by: soothsayer at May 01, 2013 02:47 PM (s+8Vv)

6 http://tinyurl.com/cs7zytw

Posted by: KSB at May 01, 2013 02:48 PM (Hw82u)

7 Some very interesting news lately regarding the abortion question. The horrible Gosnell trial and the morning after pill being sold over the counter to anyone 15 or older.... Mind boggling...

Posted by: hello, it's me Donna at May 01, 2013 02:48 PM (9+ccr)

8 How long before those in the media attack her and force her to walk back her statements?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at May 01, 2013 02:48 PM (GEICT)

9 Kermit Gosnell has me on the edge of going pure Pro Life Ace. If they give in to their impulse to deny those children who survived his hackery justice there is no edge I am all in to end the evil. I tolerated some evil in the hope the left would not bathe in it.

I was a stupid child.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 02:48 PM (LRFds)

Sturm Ruger has a 2 MILLION gun order backlog.

is.gd/hNUXgx

Now I'll never get a Gunsite Scout.

NEVER!

Posted by: Zombie Shane at May 01, 2013 02:49 PM (dScAL)

11 " I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't. " ------- That about sums up the entire progressive movements "conclusion drawing" flowchart.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 01, 2013 02:49 PM (IrLKP)

I'd argue part of the problem is how these "Experts" are perceived in the media.

We've gone more or less through the looking glass into moral relativism especially on abortion. (Perhaps radical individualism? But it's a fine distinction moot here.)

To that end "Speaking for yourself" is useless to the news stations. It's just an opinion and an opinion is useless (I actually disagree, I believe there is more or less a morality we need to be searching for, but that's a different discussion.)

In any case. People Tamara Holder want to "speak for a group" because of this. It gives them a sense of worth, a reason to be speaking at all. (Especially since I'd imagine they buy heavily into the relativistic thinking.

Posted by: tsrblke at May 01, 2013 02:50 PM (GaqMa)

13 9 Sven,

self clarification those children who initially survived his hackery...

I am having to force myself not to tear up.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 02:50 PM (LRFds)

14 Holder is the lightest of intellectual lightweights. Helium has more weight.

Posted by: huerfano at May 01, 2013 02:50 PM (bAGA/)

15 It's ok Sven

Posted by: Misanthropic humanitarian at May 01, 2013 02:51 PM (HVff2)

16 wow you're replying to yourself now??

Posted by: soothsayer at May 01, 2013 02:51 PM (qpM85)

I really wanted to know who Tamara Holder was telling on Katie Pavlich to, who are these "powers that be"?

She kind of sounded a bit like the commenter that used to go by "curious" here, with that vague yet threatening tweet.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at May 01, 2013 02:51 PM (RZ8pf)

18 I'll believe liberals when they stop being liberals. Not a single thing will change because of Gosnell-- they will never even slightly alter their Sacrament.

Posted by: zsasz at May 01, 2013 02:52 PM (MMC8r)

19 Holder is the lightest of intellectual lightweights. Helium has more weight. Posted by: huerfano at May 01, 2013 06:50 PM (bAGA/) ---- Back yard blow up wading pools have more depth.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 01, 2013 02:52 PM (IrLKP)

20 Some very interesting news lately regarding the abortion question. The horrible Gosnell trial and the morning after pill being sold over the counter to anyone 15 or older.... Mind boggling... Posted by: hello, it's me Donna at May 01, 2013 06:48 PM (9+ccr) ---------------------------------------------------------- But you'd better not dare letting little Suzy bring Advil to school. I've had it. We are well and truly boned. What was once wrong is now right and what was once right is now ridiculed and outlawed. I want off of this planet.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 01, 2013 02:52 PM (jucos)

21 16 soothsayer,

no clarifying so I don't get accused of "cryptic sven o vision"

I tried to find a middle ground on this topic early in my time in the NFL and Speech and Debate types.

I cannot shake the feeling I held hands with the devil.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 02:53 PM (LRFds)

22 Who knew that two raving Leftards could have a cogent conversation about issues?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 01, 2013 02:53 PM (+z4pE)

23 18 Zsasz,

I fear the types who can fake "self-rape" will be emboldened by Kermy G to engage in more games with third trimester abortion "for the cause."

I'd scream....but I'd die from lack of breath before I was a third done.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 02:54 PM (LRFds)

24 The other huge problem is how wide the "health of mother" exception is. It can be anything -- age, emotional health, financial condition. The loopholes are so large a nine-month pregnant woman could go through them. ----- Leaving the "mother's emotional and psychological" factors in the discussion is such a cop out. How about a serious discussion about the feelings (physical and emotional) that a 20 week old pre-born baby has? As long as the debate centers on the mother, they will never get to the root problem. Never take your eye off the baby in this debate. After all, it's their life in the balance.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 02:54 PM (9fQCF)

25 Surely Comrade Obama must have no idea what's really going on in those Illinois abortion clinics.

Posted by: junior at May 01, 2013 02:54 PM (sHIXY)

26 If conservatives owned a decent portion of the media industry most abortions would be illegal, and Obama would never have been President.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at May 01, 2013 02:55 PM (bb5+k)

27 sven, you saw the Light that's not just a glib phrase, btw, as you now know there is indeed Lightness and Darkness in this world -- some see it, some never do and spend their lives in Darkness

Posted by: soothsayer at May 01, 2013 02:56 PM (uaJ2E)

28 Well.... the conception was a long time ago in the third trimester......

Posted by: Jay Carney at May 01, 2013 02:56 PM (IrLKP)

29 20 Truck monkey,

even beyond that one can grant a sane reason to not have advil self-diagnosed at school...

I disagree but I can accept a sane argument for that....

I cannot buy enough Sudafed for an extended business trip easily "because er meth" well "yes" but my Daughter whom if she existed would need a lot of plastic surgery if she looked like me can go take a pill with the side effects of RU-486 type meds?

Surreal we're over the fucking moon

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 02:56 PM (LRFds)

30 Never take your eye off the baby in this debate. After all, it's their life in the balance. Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 06:54 PM (9fQCF) -------------------------------------------------------- Jeremiah 1:4-9 New International Version (NIV) The Call of Jeremiah 4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 Â“Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.Â” Everything I need to know about the abortion debate. Right here.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 01, 2013 02:56 PM (jucos)

" I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't. "

-------

That about sums up the entire progressive movements "conclusion drawing" flowchart.

I noticed that, too. How strange that someone in the news business didn't know about news? I'd wager that the average Moron is far better informed than either one of those two.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 01, 2013 02:57 PM (+z4pE)

32 Bboy, are you confuddling Ramesh Ponururu with Deepak Chopra, by chance??

Posted by: soothsayer at May 01, 2013 02:57 PM (qpM85)

33 Margaret: ........., but there was a balancing of rights -- those of the mother and the fetus. That line has changed, and something should be done to address that. Bullshit Carlson, you can lie to yourself and all others, but the baby (fetus) never had any rights PERIOD.

Posted by: Misanthropic humanitarian at May 01, 2013 02:58 PM (HVff2)

34 11 " I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't. " ------- That about sums up the entire progressive movements "conclusion drawing" flowchart. Posted by: fixerupper at May 01, 2013 06:49 PM (IrLKP) --------------------------------- Yes. Or rather, "I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't bother to look because the Party told me not to. "

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at May 01, 2013 02:58 PM (C8mVl)

35 Is there any point in President Legacy's administration where he'll accept responsibility for the outcome of one of his decisions? -

Posted by: BumperStickerist at May 01, 2013 02:59 PM (19AvL)

36 25 junior,

He's the smartest Constitutional Scholar to ever walk the Earth, he is just simply doomed to be Kermit Gosnell Version Illinois 2.0's self-appointed counsel "because."

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 02:59 PM (LRFds)

37 I would like a shot at life. Even if it is shitty.

Posted by: 20 Week Old Fetus at May 01, 2013 02:59 PM (jucos)

38 And, yet again, Roe is not the operative precedent, Casey is.

Now that I've picked that nit, gee, Margaret, it would be nice to know what TFG's position on infanticide is, wouldn't it? If only there was some organization, some set of group of people who were determined to ask questions and then provide answers to people. If only that existed.

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at May 01, 2013 02:59 PM (Gk3SS)

39 I remember a couple of weeks before our son was born, thinking, "Jeez, I'm going to lose a lot of sleep over the next few weeks. And my boobs...they're going to lose that perkiness I've always been so proud of."

If I were lacking a soul, I might have late-term aborted our son.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 02:59 PM (lVPtV)

40 30 Truck Monkey: Amen and amen. @ Sven The reality of this strikes deep. It takes a lot to get me POed ... This is one of em.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 03:00 PM (9fQCF)

41 If I wanted to think for myself, I wouldn't need a damned political party. Now just shut up and tell me what I believe.

Posted by: mrshad at May 01, 2013 03:00 PM (Xqfwb)

42 Yes. Or rather, "I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't bother to look because the Party told me not to. " Posted by: Margarita DeVille at May 01, 2013 06:58 PM

I was just following orders.

Posted by: the guard at the death camp at May 01, 2013 03:00 PM (bAGA/)

43 At the very least, please don't jam a scissors into my neck. You put dogs down more humanely than that.

Posted by: 20 Week Old Fetus at May 01, 2013 03:00 PM (jucos)

44 To quote Ms. Radish, sometimes I don't want to live in this world anymore.

Posted by: Lemmenkainen, Freelance Warlord at May 01, 2013 03:00 PM (K1JW0)

45 Foghorn Leghorn,

Amen, we have the technology to gauge precisely when the "fetus" crosses over on cognition but for some reason we're averse to mapping that out with precision.

Why?

Yeah exactly, "choice."

My sister was born in 63 at 6 months and half or 3/4s and made it.

When is the "choice" a person?

Since I am to the point I no longer have ANY faith in the left's restraint I am in the position to default to God and considering I should have ALWAYS defaulted back to god and stopped trying to reason on HARD doctrine implicit in the book I fear I have sinned mightily.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:02 PM (LRFds)

46 it's something Obama must regret. I hope he does.

------------------

I don't see any evidence that he regrets it in any way. Because I don't think he does.

Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 03:02 PM (P6QsQ)

47 I see Roe v. Wade on a collision course with our own eyes.

--------------

Imagine that.

Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 03:03 PM (P6QsQ)

48 productive

Of what? For whom? Really consider it.

Tomorrow, what? To "the other side," what? Do they remain, when they return from Adult Hat Warehouse to the hive, "themselves?" If they could do that, would there be a hive to return to? Because there is. And it has rules.

This is productive of a future post headlined "Remember when I kinda thought maybe Margaret Carson isn't a talking-points-shitting robot? I had a brain weasel."

Posted by: oblig.'s "Fuck A Hat" Hat at May 01, 2013 03:04 PM (cePv8)

49 This is where a constitutional law professor can go wrong, way wrong, and it's something Obama must regret. I hope he does.

-- Margaret Carlson

When the fuck was Barry EVER a professor? What a willful idiot she is.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:04 PM (lVPtV)

50 The CHOICE should have happened before said couple decided to bump uglies. After impregnation, there is no longer a choice except for murder. Straight up.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 01, 2013 03:04 PM (jucos)

Zombie:

Seriously, wtf. ruger has a 2MM fucking backlog??

Posted by: Prescient11 at May 01, 2013 03:04 PM (tVTLU)

Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at May 01, 2013 06:59 PM (Gk3SS)

If they ever let a non-Emmanuel bioethicist anywhere near that office I'd have your answer.

(Oh you mean journalists.)

Meh. Fuck them.

Seriously though. Someone should get TFG's opinion by showing him the "Post-Birth Abortion" paper from last year. I'd bet we could get him to support it (because he's an intellectual moron.)

I remember a conference last year where one of the people receiving the "lifetime achievement award" (for stupid I guess, I really don't know what else for) put up a list of "solved bioethics problems." Abortion was up there.

I couldn't get close enough to take her to task on that piece of bullshit. I did however take one of the other founding fathers of the field to task for it. (I may not make a career for myself, but I've made a name!)

Posted by: tsrblke at May 01, 2013 03:05 PM (GaqMa)

53 The World needs me.

Posted by: an enema at May 01, 2013 03:05 PM (qpM85)

54 @ Jane What was your first thought at seeing your son for the first time? I'll never forget.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 03:05 PM (9fQCF)

55 I don't see any evidence that he regrets it in any way. Because I don't think he does.
Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 07:02 PM

Â“Thank you, Planned Parenthood. God bless you.Â”

Posted by: Barry Obama at May 01, 2013 03:05 PM (bAGA/)

56 Margaret, Barry was never a constitutional law professor. He was merely a guest lecturer. Do you ever know what's going on?

Posted by: Facts of Barry's Life at May 01, 2013 03:06 PM (WolTZ)

57 Lou Dobbs reporting that the State Dept. has FINALLY made contact with Victoria Toensing. She's on his show now on FBN.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at May 01, 2013 03:07 PM (X6akg)

58 54 @ Jane What was your first thought at seeing your son for the first time?

I'll never forget.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 07:05 PM (9fQCF

After A-stan? Incredible relief. Lots of tears he'd never seen me shed.

Now he's deployed to Korea and we haven't heard a word since he arrived, which was weeks ago.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:07 PM (lVPtV)

59 "I was a stupid child" Don't beat yourself up,Sven. Converts make the best activists. Also, Obama doesn't regret his actions on IL BAIPA. Can I get a bit wonkish for a moment? Obama voted against BAIPA 3 times. Most galling, he voted againat it when an amendment was added in a committee that he chaired which changed the language to mimic the federal BAIPA . He was the most ardent voice against the bill. That is the truth.

Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 03:07 PM (wsGWu)

60 @ Sven (raising a toast to your post... And your heart)

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 03:07 PM (9fQCF)

61 Even left wing Europe doesn't allow abortions as late in the term as the US and I believe many of them wont do anything without parental notification.

Posted by: steevy at May 01, 2013 03:08 PM (9XBK2)

62 (WolTZ) I don't care how many dago guinea wop greaseball goombas come out of the woodwork, Johnny Fontaine never gets that part!

Posted by: soothie at May 01, 2013 03:08 PM (qpM85)

63 There is no reason for a late term abortion. You can terminate the pregnancy without killing the child at that point. Do a C- Section. Surrender the child to Adoption Services. There is no need to end the baby's life after viability.

Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 03:08 PM (P6QsQ)

64 I suspect Margaret Carlson went far off the reservation from her Tribe with those statements.

If we look into it I bet she's being savaged by fellow pro-choicers for daring to reign in controls on abortion.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at May 01, 2013 03:09 PM (A2wz6)

Barry was a professor in name only. Acted like a total dick to pretty much everyone and an even harder dick to people he disagreed with.

He would refuse to shake John Lott's hand, like a fucking psycho.

We have a narcissitic incompetent fuck running things and the media is sucking his dick all the way down. And you wonder why we're in trouble.

Posted by: Prescient11 at May 01, 2013 03:09 PM (tVTLU)

66 The One Promise Barry Hussein is carrying out is "fundamentally transforming" this country.

Thanks libs.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:09 PM (lVPtV)

67 Ive posted this thought here before, and it bears repeating again. You want to see oppostion to abortion from somebody other than the bitter clingers???? Wait until a gay gene is discovered and "choice" extends to aborting over sexual orientation.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 01, 2013 03:09 PM (IrLKP)

" I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't. "

That is quite possibly the most pathetic attempt to excuse oneself, and a poignant example of the failure if liberalism as it pertains to education. I am sure she never heard of eugenics or Margaret Sanger, or NAZIs either.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 01, 2013 03:10 PM (k/Mc/)

69 "[Obama] voted against legislation to clarify that infants who survive abortions should be protected, because he worried that it was inconsistent with abortion rights. It's a vote his defenders have been trying to explain away ever since."

Really?

Because I haven't seen Obama's defenders having to work very hard to "explain away" that frankly radical ultraabortion stance (far to the left of Barbara freaking Boxer!).

The reason why is that this is one of the issues where the media sensed the potential for real political harm to their idol Obama. As with other such issues, they have defensively lowered the cone of silence and resolutely refused to cover it.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 01, 2013 03:10 PM (gqT4g)

70 The new 3d and 4d technology ultrasounds will alter the 'choice' arguments too. It is a baby, and you can tell relatively quickly alot of things about that baby.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 01, 2013 03:10 PM (jucos)

71 Daddy, did you really want little babies to die?

Posted by: Sasha and Malia at May 01, 2013 03:11 PM (lVPtV)

72 George Tiller admitted years ago that the vast majority of his late term patients were simply young girls who had hid their pregnancies until they became obvious. It's not about health considerations, it's about a culture that says that it's.perfectly fine to kill your child until they look like Casey Anthony's daughter.

Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 03:11 PM (wsGWu)

73 " I wish I'd known what was going on but I didn't. "

That is quite possibly the most pathetic attempt to excuse oneself, and a poignant example of the failure if liberalism as it pertains to education. I am sure she never heard of eugenics orMargaret Sanger, or NAZIseither.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 01, 2013 07:10 PM (k/Mc/)

She never heard of George Tiller? Same thing, different state.

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at May 01, 2013 03:11 PM (X6akg)

74 And if they had the sense that God gave gravel the pro-abortion side would have insisted that abortion clinics meet the full letter of the law and the sanitary requirements that a dentist's office has. They did not; and that failure demonstrated that they did not care about anything at all - not the women, at least.

They have argued that legalizing abortion was to move it away from illegal back-alley operations; their actions demonstrate that they are fine with legal back-alley operations. All they wanted were abortions, and to the devil with any other concern.

Truly sickening.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Pirate Scum of Umbar at May 01, 2013 03:11 PM (gmoEG)

75 59 Lauren,

Yeah barack has NEVER "politicked" in good faith. NEVER I have NEVER seen him reach genuine consensus, and he uses what should be sealants to comity as wedges his whole career. In his defense he is an intellectual lightweight and nabob who is simply aping his Alinsky training to the nth power.

The problem is I have been a Christian for 85% of my life. I so desperately wanted to slay the collectivist dragon I cut corners on some moral questions and as I age I see those corners more and more clearly.

When I indulge in magic thinking of "fate" I sometimes wonder if God did not punish me by limiting me to one child by my wife b/c of cut corners. In my saner moments rare though they may seem thanks to my output here, I understand that is vain thinking and runs counter my belief in Clockwork Divinity.

Anyway thank you for your kind thoughts, I do know that this event and the liberal's actions on it has shaken me to my core.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:12 PM (LRFds)

76 @ Jane They are always our children. Every time I get a text or call or email from mine, I remember. As I age and get closer to death, I treasure those memories. And will do so well into eternity.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 03:12 PM (9fQCF)

77 72 Bad example,because Casey Anthony got away with that retroactive abortion.

Posted by: steevy at May 01, 2013 03:12 PM (9XBK2)

78 76 @ Jane They are always our children. Every time I get a text or call or email from mine, I remember. As I age and get closer to death, I treasure those memories. And will do so well into eternity.

Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn at May 01, 2013 07:12 PM (9fQCF

God bless you, hon.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:12 PM (lVPtV)

79 True, Steevy, but the LIV's nearly rioted.

Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 03:13 PM (wsGWu)

80 Tiller was at least close to as evil as Gosnell.I'm sure there are more out there.Sick fucks who get pleasure from slaughtering babie.

Posted by: steevy at May 01, 2013 03:14 PM (9XBK2)

81 2 questions 1. How does a 15 yo prove her age? They have no photo ID. 2. What percentage of 15yo's will buy and take the abortion pill after Every Single sexual encounter they have just to make sure? (The answer to #2 is 100% of all the girls who can pay for or steal the abortion bill.)

Posted by: soothie at May 01, 2013 03:14 PM (uaJ2E)

82 Do you want to know why Obama supported infanticide? Because the hospital in question, Christ Hospital, was heavily tied to Jeremiah God Dam America's church. It was a case of crony Chicago politic mixed with radical abortion support. Of course, the media didn't see a story in all that.

Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 03:15 PM (wsGWu)

83 mama winger the left WANTS to kill babies

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 01, 2013 03:16 PM (GVxQo)

84 What percentage of 15yo's will buy and take the abortion pill after Every Single sexual encounter they have just to make sure?

------------

What percentage of 15 year olds will take 2 or 3 times the dosage each time just to make sure?

I remember being 15. It's not an age known for its clear thinking and wise judgement.

Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 03:16 PM (P6QsQ)

85 Yeah Soothie, they will be popping those abortion pills like M&M's. I am sure that their reproductive health won't be affected by this at all. Plus.... 15 year old girls are CHILDREN. Their are laws against them getting laid by anyone! Why would these pills be made available to them?

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 01, 2013 03:17 PM (jucos)

86 Poor Margaret. She's about to be dis-invited to the cool cocktail parties.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:17 PM (lVPtV)

87 okay, so your 14 yo daughter goes to CVS and tries to buy an abortion pill. the cashier asks her age, girl says I'm 15 there is not a drugstore employee who will refuse to sell her the pill -- because they are ordered to on fear of the ACLU right or wrong? (mostly right, right?)

Posted by: soothie at May 01, 2013 03:17 PM (/eLjI)

88 Oh there are, Steevy. So many Tiller's clinic has reopened . They fly in.a few abortionists. I have family in Kansas. Wichita is bathed in demonic shadows, and I say that as someone who hasn't been to Church in 5 years.

Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 03:17 PM (wsGWu)

89 How many of those 15 y.o. kids will sell or give away day after pills?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:18 PM (lVPtV)

90 86 Jane D'Oh,

Maybe we should start throwing parties of our own.

The Lutheran's Jello, Cookies, Bacon, Valu-Rite 4all

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:18 PM (LRFds)

91 the left WANTS to kill babies

-----------

Yes they do. The only good outcome for them is death. If a baby is born alive, kill it anyway. If a baby is viable and could be delivered by C-section, kill it anyway.

This has nothing to do with "Women's Health".

Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 03:18 PM (P6QsQ)

92 88 Nothing Satan loves more than killing babies,but hey,that's crazy talk.

Posted by: steevy at May 01, 2013 03:19 PM (9XBK2)

93 >>72 George Tiller admitted years ago that the vast majority of his late term patients were simply young girls who had hid their pregnancies until they became obvious. It's not about health considerations, it's about a culture that says that it's.perfectly fine to kill your child until they look like Casey Anthony's daughter. Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 07:11 PM (wsGWu) I remember reading an article about Tiller and the "health" reasons frequently given for late-term abortions by his hands. Common items on the list were things like, "i'd have to miss my prom" as a psychological health problem. And that murderer would do nothing to discourage such thoughts or point out how small they really are; he'd play them up to try to get them to abort.

Posted by: Occam's Safety Razor at May 01, 2013 03:19 PM (lpR33)

94 yes, and what are the short and long term affects of repeated use of the abortion pill by teens whose ensdocrine system isn't fully developed?

Posted by: soothie at May 01, 2013 03:19 PM (C0ttM)

95 Being reluctantly pro-choice I can see where some of the silence comes from. It's GUILT. There really is no good abortion, there's just varying degrees of evil. I still think it's justifiable in some cases, I just can't help feeling a little guilt of association.

Posted by: Eaton Cox at May 01, 2013 03:20 PM (q177U)

96
Tamra Holder is a dumbass. I need to get a tv gig spouting dumbass stuff.

As to the subject at hand, the abortion industry is an industry, a business, it is crystal clear that they look at these women and their babies as widgets, nothing more, certainly not human.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at May 01, 2013 03:20 PM (jKWYf)

97 91 Mama Winger,

and everything to do with self-indulgent murder of our posterity.....

We're being told we have to accept an invasion by illegal immigrants because "birthrate."

Yeah that's a sign of a healthy culture....

Secular Humanist Western Civ is so successful it's blowing its brains out

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:20 PM (LRFds)

98 @36 36 25 junior, He's the smartest Constitutional Scholar to ever walk the Earth, he is just simply doomed to be Kermit Gosnell Version Illinois 2.0's self-appointed counsel "because." ---------------------------- He's so smart, in fact that we're not allowed to read any of the papers that he wrote while at Columbia.

Posted by: junior at May 01, 2013 03:20 PM (sHIXY)

The local Dairy Queen hereabouts has a sign out front that reads

If it's not really a baby then you aren't really pregnant.

I really like those people.

Posted by: madamemayhem at May 01, 2013 03:21 PM (S2RnE)

100 Gosnell's jokes about babies being big enough to walk to the bus stop sicken me. It was a joke to him. He was having a grand old time stabbing babies in the neck and sawing off their parts to store in mason jars. G-d's judgement on us as a nation is coming. We will all pay for allowing the Tillers and Gosnells to do what they did.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at May 01, 2013 03:21 PM (jucos)

101 If it's not really a baby then you aren't really pregnant.

------------------

I like that very much.

Posted by: mama winger, waiting for the court martial to begin at May 01, 2013 03:22 PM (P6QsQ)

102 95
yes, and what are the short and long term affects of repeated use of the abortion pill by teens whose ensdocrine system isn't fully developed?

Fox had a doc on this morning (whose name completely escapes me...he's hispanic), who is a gyno and was going crazy over this. He said the side-effects of the pill can be very serious.

Aunt Jemima Green (sorry, Jehmu, or whatever) argued how young girls need the pill for "their health." I wanted to punch that fat lib bitch in the throat.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:22 PM (lVPtV)

103 Holder is the lightest of intellectual lightweights. Helium has more weight.

Posted by: huerfano at May 01, 2013 06:50 PM (bAGA/)

Hank "It might tip over" Johnson: Can we use her to fill balloons?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 01, 2013 03:22 PM (TgViA)

104 96 Eaton Cox,

You share no guilt, and I am not damning those who stay in the "soft pro" camp to hellfire or somesuch.

I strive to live up to a deceptively difficult doctrine and I made perhaps similar bargains.

But Eaton the left keeps NO bargain and I feel *I* was a fool not saying anyone else was.

I betrayed a belief for short term gain that perhaps dragged on far too long.

You'll find your own way, and are free to believe as you will brother.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:22 PM (LRFds)

105 I do data entry for a crisis pregnancy center. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of women who come to our center considering an abortion change their mind after seeing an ultrasound. If this topic is important to you, find a clinic near you at which to volunteer. start here: optionline.org

Posted by: Occam's Safety Razor at May 01, 2013 03:23 PM (lpR33)

106 my girls got in the car after school today, 16 and 14 soon to be 15.....i asked them if they were excited!!!!! they said they didn't know what i was talking about...i told them they could now get plan b from the pharmacy!!!!! i reminded them they weren't allowed to take midol or tylenol to school whilst menstruating but they could carry plan b around in case of a pregnancy emergency!!!! wtf has happened to our country?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 01, 2013 03:23 PM (GVxQo)

107 15 yo's are what, 4 years removed from watching Disney channel? they're children -- and stupid, at that most of them don't understand reproductive biology and might think they can get pregnant from making out or dry humping no problem, they'll just take an Obama Abortion Pill!

Posted by: soothie at May 01, 2013 03:23 PM (qpM85)

108 But, honestly, if you take anything from Gosnell, know that these abortions are happening.everywhere. Probably.in your town. The PP down the street from me advertises abortions til 26 weeks.

Posted by: Lauren at May 01, 2013 03:23 PM (wsGWu)

109 101 He kept trophies too.Jars full of feet.

Posted by: steevy at May 01, 2013 03:24 PM (9XBK2)

110
He's so smart, in fact that we're not allowed to read any of the papers that he wrote while at Columbia.

Posted by: junior at May 01, 2013 07:20 PM (sHIXY)

He bragged in one of his stupid books about grinding his cig butts out in the carpets at Occidental.

He's pure trash.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:24 PM (lVPtV)

111 99 Junior,

Correct or even see his curricula vitae to reverse engiener who bore influence on "the Messiah".....

I think perhaps it is awesome humility, he knows if I could read his master's thesis my body would self-immolate from being so awed.

Thanks Comrade Soetoro!

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:24 PM (LRFds)

112 Sven, there is forgiveness. Another toast to your posts and to you.

Posted by: LadyS at May 01, 2013 03:24 PM (O0UBz)

113 is it women's health when the abortion victim is a girl?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 01, 2013 03:24 PM (GVxQo)

114 "Liechtenstein, Luxembourg have intense debate about border and trade issues." You get the point, right?

Posted by: Your Reality Check, Unheeded at May 01, 2013 03:25 PM (pmsMR)

115 Fox had a doc on this morning (whose name completely escapes me...he's hispanic), who is a gyno and was going crazy over this. He said the side-effects of the pill can be very serious.

Manny Alvarez?

Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at May 01, 2013 03:25 PM (X6akg)

116 Margret can join Kirsten Powers in the penalty box.

Dark powers have always desired human sacrifice.

Posted by: Iblis at May 01, 2013 03:25 PM (9221z)

117 107 PHXGrl,

Ma'am Barack Obama was an omen.....

http://youtu.be/olHnyslc-OM

Prodigy-Omen

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:26 PM (LRFds)

118 My husband, the eternal glass-half-full optimist, told me this evening, as he was heading out the door to a Boy Scout meeting, "I'm on the verge of giving up on this country."

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:26 PM (lVPtV)

119 dumb knood post up

Posted by: soothie at May 01, 2013 03:26 PM (C0ttM)

120 I must be sated!

Posted by: Moloch at May 01, 2013 03:26 PM (jucos)

121 Palette cleansing ice cream thread up.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at May 01, 2013 03:27 PM (1zr4/)

122 After you get over killing babies, everything else is easy.

Posted by: nip at May 01, 2013 03:27 PM (lGVXf)

123 Manny Alvarez?

Posted by: Tami at May 01, 2013 07:25 PM (X6akg

Yes.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at May 01, 2013 03:27 PM (lVPtV)

124 The lefy sees babies as the means by which a patriarchal society oppresses women. It's why they have such an extreme love of abortion. Well that and pure narcissism.

Posted by: Tilikum The Killer Assault Whale at May 01, 2013 03:27 PM (uhftQ)

125 Thanks for your kind words Lady S and Foghorn.

This issue is so toxic and it hurts my heart so.

If the nation cannot see justice done a child whose only sin is a placental attachment to its mother when we can make it viable I am not sure we are worthy of any grace.

I'm gonna let this go and hug my son and watch a cartoon or something.

I pray God those jurors give those babies justice.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 03:29 PM (LRFds)

126 That is quite possibly the most pathetic attempt to excuse oneself, and a poignant example of the failure if liberalism as it pertains to education. I am sure she never heard of eugenics orMargaret Sanger, or NAZIseither. Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 01, 2013 07:10 PM (k/Mc/) Honestly! We had No Idea what was going on inside those camps!

Posted by: Residents around Auschwitz at May 01, 2013 03:30 PM (bb5+k)

127 Off sock.

Posted by: Diogenes' Lamp at May 01, 2013 03:31 PM (bb5+k)

128 Margaret's lib friends just don't find her desirable anymore; she's trawling fresh waters.

Posted by: teh Wind at May 01, 2013 03:32 PM (o558S)

129 before i got pregnant with my son I was kinda soft pro choice. I figured (in a vaguely libertarian sorta way) that I did not have the right to tell other women what they could do with their bodies. I did not agree with abortion for me and would never have chosen that option but basically thought other women should have the right to make that choice for themselves. I actually believed that abortion was rare and only chosen in extremely dire circumstances. After getting pregnant, seeing the ultrasound, experiencing the miracle of birth, and holding my son for the first time, I changed my views completely. That little critter growing in someones tummy is not a choice, it is a baby. Period. Ending its existence is murder. Period.

Posted by: madamemayhem at May 01, 2013 03:32 PM (S2RnE)

130 I pray God those jurors give those babies justice.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at May 01, 2013 07:29 PM (LRFds)

If they do I fully expect Il Douche to make a speech condemning them

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 01, 2013 03:35 PM (TgViA)

131 Margaret better watch herself, her friends are very accepting of those who go off message.

Posted by: Cindy Munford at May 01, 2013 03:35 PM (6MiMG)

132 Has anyone seen a statement by the American Medical Association RE Gosnell? I searched google, but didn't find one. Have they ever investigated the claims against him? Have they ever sanctioned him?

Posted by: bonhomme at May 01, 2013 03:35 PM (INXpc)

133

Bboy, are you confuddling Ramesh Ponururu with Deepak Chopra, by chance??

Yes, I was. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

In my defense, I do feel like I'm trying to come down with something. Lightheaded, more than usual. And I ache all over.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 01, 2013 03:36 PM (+z4pE)

134 Honestly! We had No Idea what was going on inside those camps!

Posted by: Residents around Auschwitz"

WORD!

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at May 01, 2013 03:37 PM (GwLJQ)

135

If it's not really a baby then you aren't really pregnant.

Consider that stolen.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy, who did not vote for this shit at May 01, 2013 03:40 PM (+z4pE)

136 Liberals lie and tell the truth in the same statement, but expect credit only for the truth. Which means, NO FUCKING CREDIT FOR HALF-HONESTY. Because it's not honesty, it's a *ploy*. Fucking hack propagandists are lying even when they occasionally sputter out an actual fact, because they're only doing it for *credit*. Also, Barack Obama Was Not A Professor. He was an adjunct lecturer and a minor campus functionary (as has been pointed out here - but not THERE). Even the fucking labels are lies. MFM delenda est - and here's example #9,834,197

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at May 01, 2013 03:43 PM (qyfb5)

137 And the effing ice cream trucks steal the oxygen. We need two columns.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith[/i][/b][/s][/u] at May 01, 2013 03:44 PM (qyfb5)

138 Gosnell didn't just hurt babies. Click on the URL to see just how horrible this is, in every way. Abortion kills babies and ruins the lives of many others.

Posted by: RebelYankee at May 01, 2013 03:45 PM (VF2q2)

139 Carlson:
Roe was meant to prohibit abortions after viability and to protect a woman's primacy to decide before that. You might not agree with that, Ramesh, but there was a balancing of rights -- those of the mother and the fetus.

This is incorrect. The balancing test was between the rights of the mother and the rights of the state governments. The fetus was never acknowledged to have any rights whatsoever (by SCOTUS).

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at May 01, 2013 03:46 PM (k34Gz)

140 Carlson's argument that conservative media covered it meant that "the other side" didn't need to was a tacit admission that the mainstream media is, in fact, liberal.

Posted by: xbradtc at May 01, 2013 03:47 PM (+FFD7)

141 Anybody want to remind Carlson that President Closet Shelf sponsored the Gosnell Protection Act?

Posted by: zsasz at May 01, 2013 03:49 PM (MMC8r)

142

The viability question.

When is a killing not a killing?

Freakin' cold ass liberal convenience mentality if you ask me.

Posted by: wth at May 01, 2013 03:52 PM (wAQA5)

143 And the effing ice cream trucks steal the oxygen.

We need two columns.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at May 01, 2013 07:44 PM (qyfb5

Hey don't look at me dude, I went and got some ice cream and came back here. If the ice cream guys want to have a demo derby style settle that shit, then I might get back over there.

Posted by: madamemayhem at May 01, 2013 03:54 PM (S2RnE)

144

'Seriously, wtf. ruger has a 2MM fucking backlog??'

Yep.

Last year they stopped taking new orders for a while when they reached a backlog of only 1 Million.

This year it ballooned to a backlog 2 Million.

Shit is getting serious.

[And I'll never get my Gunsite Scout.]

Posted by: Zombie Shane at May 01, 2013 03:58 PM (dScAL)

145 "Honestly! We had No Idea what was going on inside those camps!" Remember what the US troops did to help those Nazi civilians get an idea?

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at May 01, 2013 04:00 PM (gCSCP)

146 In the movie "A Man for All Seasons, " Thomas More stated a Latin term of Silence Gives Consent and under the law the silence must be construed to agree with the action.

Posted by: eeyore at May 01, 2013 04:04 PM (97qUe)

147 JFC. His last name is spelt Ponnuru. Notice the two n's. Loose shit. He's generally on our side. Hey!...Feelings.

Posted by: Bobymandius, Destroyer of Threads at May 01, 2013 04:13 PM (Lr5E0)

148 "and it's something Obama must regret" That's not being honest. I don't think Obama regrets those votes one damn bit.

Posted by: UGAdawg at May 01, 2013 04:30 PM (WYOrt)

149 And that Holder broad is one aggressively stupid bitch, isn't she?

Posted by: UGAdawg at May 01, 2013 04:35 PM (WYOrt)

150 Because there is no fighting from the other side? That's never excused liberals from hyping without end tragedies that they feel will advance liberal agendas. The very first thing liberals do when there is a tragedy of any kind is try to figure out how to frame the narrative so as to advance the liberal agenda.

Posted by: JohnJ at May 01, 2013 05:33 PM (Tt6ky)

151 Ace I think you were on to something at the end there but lost it. Go back to some of your recent thinking on whether the press as a whole and journalists in particular should just admit their biases instead of trying to maintain a pretense of neutrality or objectivity. If individual journalists, especially commentators, would be more up-front about all of their personal politics and slants, not only would it be more honest, but it would free them to speak their own thoughts, which would necessarily diverge at least on details from the party/"objective press" line. More interestingly, the very fact that details were explored would diverge from the typically broad strokes politics and reporting. Case in point, the 20 weeks vs 3rd trimester threshold Carlson discusses.

Posted by: CBrown at May 01, 2013 05:37 PM (dPRne)

152 "Roe was meant to prohibit abortions after viability and to protect a woman's primacy to decide before that."

That is a lie.

Posted by: JohnJ at May 01, 2013 05:41 PM (Tt6ky)

153 Spot-on analysis, Ace. The sort of thing I come here for.

Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at May 01, 2013 06:15 PM (2Oas0)

154 Back in the '70's, my one true love became pregnant, even though BC was being used, anyway, I offered to marry her and of course raise the child. She decided to have an abortion despite my objections. Long story short, I heard through the grapevine that she was rendered barren as a result. I forgave her, but that will never bring back that child. Which sucks. As I never was blessed with children after neither. Abortion is evil. Plain and simple.

Posted by: Randomized lurker at May 01, 2013 06:17 PM (AnfcZ)

155 It has been some time since I read Roe in law school, but , as I remember it, Roe made no distinctions regarding trimesters, though that is a commonly held belief.

Posted by: Patriack at May 01, 2013 06:45 PM (LrlHu)

156 Mr Ace, Hannity wants the partisan line from Tamra Holder. That's the game. It isn't about what she believes, or whomever he has on from the right either, it is about arguing from a position. That sets up the heated back and forth. But this isn't some unintentional group think or defending the tribe, it is intentional sensationalism. It is a TV show after all. I am not an insider but I am guessing that the talking heads like Tamra are told what to say to some degree. You didn't think the Amish Mafia was real just because they filmed it in the style of reality TV did you?

Posted by: Wodun at May 01, 2013 07:33 PM (PEpU8)

157 Story is now 404'd. I put a comment up, and then it disappeared. I hope it wasn't my fault...

Posted by: moleman1976 at May 01, 2013 07:49 PM (622xh)

158 at last, i can admit it. I'm kinda gay for Rachel Maddow

Posted by: mr.bitterness at May 01, 2013 08:18 PM (M8ZV0)

159 Ace? It's all garbage.... GIGO.... ...and you can always tell who I am by clicking on my nic....

Posted by: backhoe at May 02, 2013 12:55 AM (ULH4o)

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