June 06, 2013
— Ace
These aren't firm thoughts. But I'm thinking about slowing down on first reactions.
First of all, we have to be aware that the US is not particularly good at human intelligence. Even when we were halfway decent at it, our opponent was the Soviet Union. Which, importantly, was a country. There are a lot of people in a country, and therefore a lot of potential spies.
There are far fewer people in a terrorist organization and therefore fewer potential spies. And while a disillusioned Soviet might turn spy for us, a disillusioned Al Qaeda is likely just to quit the group. Thereby taking himself out of a position where he could serve as a useful spy.
But Soviet citizens, trapped behind the Iron Curtain, couldn't quit the Soviet club. By trapping their citizens and abusing them, the Soviets made a lot of potential spies for us.
I don't think Al Qaeda does that. Again, the easiest way to defy Al Qaeda is to flee it. Not to remain in place, passing secrets to the West.
The US has never been particularly good at human intelligence, so we have made ourselves quite good at technical intelligence. This is how we've historically compensated for our so-so abilities in the human espionage realm. We've been very good at capturing signals. We famously tapped the trans-Atlantic phone cable, and thus could eavesdrop in on all phone traffic between the US and Europe (and Russia beyond).
Right now I'm thinking of Chesterton's parable of the fence.
In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, or that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion.
I don't know why the fence was built and I'm wondering if we should slow down on calling for its demolition until we know better why it's there and what functions it may be serving.
Given that I think we probably have little actual human intelligence on Al Qaeda, and even less on our recent plague of Leaderless Jihadis, and are not likely to get very much better at that sort of thing, technical means of collection are probably our only real source of intelligence and we might need to hesitate before foreswearing this avenue altogether.
It might be that different versions of this are palatable, and others unpalatable, and, knowing so little, we don't know which this is. I think the creepiest thought is that there is a human being reading our emails. That is creepy, because human spies, human voyeurs, are creepy.
But what if the program were such -- and when I say "what if," understand I have no idea if it works this way; I am simply speculating about one possible configuration -- that automated non-human algorithms searched for certain keywords and, generally, signs of either a foreign language or English being written by a non-native speaker. And what if the traffic so identified was kicked up to a higher level of automated scrutiny-- still no humans reading -- and scanned for additional worrisome signs.
And then, only after the billions of messages had been screened down to Worrisome Few, say a few thousand in a month, would humans then check the flagged passages, and then, if they thought those passages were alarming, seek a judge's warrant to read the full text, and not just the flagged sentences and phrases.
Now, I think that such a system would be far less worrisome, although it would still be creepy, and of course still prone to great and serious abuse.
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that if we abandon our advantage in the realm of computer processing power (and the incredible advantage we have in that most internet traffic, world-wide, circulates through the US), I think we're going to be down to our human capabilities which, once again, I think are virtually non-existent with regard to Al Qaeda. I think we'll be down to the felt.
I don't know. We need to know more, obviously.
Posted by: Ace at
04:31 PM
| Comments (639)
Post contains 1027 words, total size 6 kb.
Posted by: Sandra Fluke at June 06, 2013 04:35 PM (0duDc)
"You have committed a crime Comrade."
"But I have been sitting here at this Internet cafe."
"I did not say when you committed it."
"So when did I if I did?"
"Soon. Arrest him."
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 04:35 PM (pzswX)
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at June 06, 2013 04:36 PM (e8kgV)
Posted by: traye at June 06, 2013 04:37 PM (zd8yx)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 04:37 PM (M1gmo)
Posted by: wooga at June 06, 2013 04:37 PM (EBeyW)
But the question is - do we trust the Democrats and Barack Obama in particular with this kind of power?
The IRS fiasco has shown that they aren't trustworthy. They will use this information against us to their benefit.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at June 06, 2013 04:38 PM (uhAkr)
Remember Echalon? We discussed this maybe 6 or 7 years ago here.
Posted by: spongeworthy--pooch whisperer at June 06, 2013 04:39 PM (r5w1L)
Posted by: Phinn at June 06, 2013 04:39 PM (oFH2D)
Posted by: creeper at June 06, 2013 04:39 PM (vbzvs)
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at June 06, 2013 04:39 PM (e8kgV)
Posted by: Flying Manatee at June 06, 2013 04:39 PM (YEDer)
as long as you understand that we might have no intelligence if not for this sort.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 04:40 PM (LCRYB)
HOW SCREWED UP IS THIS CRAP? I need my nerve pills just thinking of the camps and being without my moisturizers.
Dear spies, my identity has been stolen, including IP. I have no idea who this person is who comments on this blog.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 04:40 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: newrouter at June 06, 2013 04:40 PM (kfeRL)
A few years later, Art Bell was going on about rumors that every phone call in the UK was being recorded by the government.
All I could do was whistle innocently.
Posted by: Largely Irrelevant Assault Citizen Anachronda at June 06, 2013 04:41 PM (U82Km)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 04:41 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Leigh at June 06, 2013 04:41 PM (LZBOj)
No. Bring on the Nork EMP please. Faster..
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 04:41 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: Chicagorefugee at June 06, 2013 04:41 PM (JsRnY)
Posted by: jewells45 at June 06, 2013 04:41 PM (u25eL)
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 04:42 PM (aDwsi)
I have nearly incalculable issues with the underlying premise that all data is subject to government inspection without any type of probable cause.
It is this simple. Either I am a sovereign being who has control over my body and papers or I am a subject of the State who has no rights but that which the State grants and can take away at will.
Given the SCOTUS DNA ruling and PRISM, I now know under which structure I reside.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 04:42 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: sneaky little five-eyes at June 06, 2013 04:42 PM (3X3ZR)
Posted by: Jack at June 06, 2013 04:42 PM (gWHwW)
Posted by: newrouter at June 06, 2013 04:43 PM (kfeRL)
Posted by: Wyatt Earp at June 06, 2013 04:43 PM (gA69l)
-----------
You say "American citizen", I say "undocumented foreigner."
Posted by: NSA at June 06, 2013 04:43 PM (U82Km)
Posted by: Adriane ... at June 06, 2013 04:43 PM (Jv4FA)
Posted by: CDR M at June 06, 2013 04:43 PM (dKV5k)
Posted by: Mike at June 06, 2013 04:43 PM (zmrml)
Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy
This and there is a central issue of whether or not this belongs in our republic.
Just last week a poll of UK citizens responded with overwhelming support on ending their firearms ban. Commenters noted here that the UK government actually governs in a manner contradictory to the wishes of their own people.
Similarly, if this PRISM/NSA gathering issue was put before the populace on a ballot, I have trouble imagining anything other than complete rejection of it.
How can the government claim that these types of surveillance are not just justified in terms of national security but in terms of a legit extension of executive power granted by the citizens?
At this point, the justification for the program as a counter-factual of stopping terrorism is overcome by just plain old 'we didn't fucking vote for that shit.'
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 04:44 PM (ujux6)
Posted by: Jack at June 06, 2013 04:44 PM (gWHwW)
No good can come from this. Why? Because politicians and bureaucrats cannot be trusted.
Moreover, bureaucrats are hired henchmen for crooked politicians. The situation in Washington D.C. could not be worse.
Posted by: soothsayer, malicious communicator at June 06, 2013 04:44 PM (GcwH1)
Any system that can be used to quickly identify jihadi key words and phrasing can just as easily be used to identify Tea Party and Constitution words and phrases.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 04:44 PM (jvnuj)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 04:45 PM (pzswX)
Posted by: Wyatt Earp at June 06, 2013 04:45 PM (gA69l)
US: We want both. They're not mutually exclusive.
The US Govt: Of course they're not, but first, the Aristocrats!
Posted by: My Sharia Moor at June 06, 2013 04:45 PM (0duDc)
Posted by: Phinn at June 06, 2013 04:46 PM (oFH2D)
See: Russian Warning, Tsarnaev brothers.
Posted by: Tami[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 04:46 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: CK at June 06, 2013 04:46 PM (LmD/o)
Posted by: Tobacco Road at June 06, 2013 04:46 PM (4Mv1T)
Tomorrow is National Donut Day.
Posted by: Typical Obama Voter at June 06, 2013 04:46 PM (hO8IJ)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 04:47 PM (ZPrif)
I don't "believe them." My reasons for writing this are entirely transparent and noted above: From my reading about US intel, we're not good at HUMINT, and are much better at SIGINT.
I could add something about the neutering of the CIA in the 70s, which, just 11 years ago, was widely blamed for our inability to see that 9/11 was coming.
I could note this cycle continuing. Build up, tear down. Get hit by terrorists. Build up again. Tear down again. Etc.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 04:47 PM (LCRYB)
50 years, how nuts.
Posted by: Some guy on a cable show at June 06, 2013 04:47 PM (27BfC)
After the IRS scandal, they have lost our trust, regardless of how useful and necessary PRISM may be.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 04:47 PM (jvnuj)
Posted by: rdbrewer at June 06, 2013 04:48 PM (Iyg03)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 08:40 PM (LCRYB
As long as you understand that there is a difference in kind between monitoring of foreign nationals; monitoring after a warrant and wholesale data collection of all users.
The PreCrime comment above summed it up nicely. The premise of PRISM is that everyone is guilty until proven innocent. That is a fundamental rejection of Constitutional principles.
I must say, I find your position a bit incoherent, though that may be because we are all responding to less than complete information. Are you saying that you think there are only two options: complete monitoring of everyone or no monitoring of anyone? Because I find it difficult to believe those are the only choices.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 04:48 PM (Gk3SS)
They search everyone as not to profile against a known threat. They datamine everyone's everything shreading our constitutional protections but uphold their PC no-profiling bullshit and refuse to single out single arab men aged 17 to 38.
Shove this up your ass NSA. Bullshit.
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 04:48 PM (/jHWN)
After the IRS scandal, they have lost our trust, regardless of how useful and necessary PRISM may be.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 08:47 PM (jvnuj)
This.
Posted by: My Sharia Moor at June 06, 2013 04:48 PM (0duDc)
I think one of the take away quotes from that was "I would assume if something said 'Do Not File' that you would file it in the 'Do Not File' file." IIRC Church said that.
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (pzswX)
"I'm terrible at my job. Imma gonna rob a bank."
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (ujux6)
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 08:42 PM (aDwsi)
Dear Eric and Overlords and Ace,
I am all for profiling. I like profiling, especially at airports and venues where people kill innocent Americans. Until Lutherans or blonde and aging supermodels like myself are the authors of mass murders and terror, then, I say profile the hell out of radical islamics, especially those here on expired student visas and attending radical mosques. Profile them until the cows come home. Meanwhile, quit wasting your time reading my ninnyhammer emails. I will plead hormone instability or allergies for insanity, so what is the point? I think my identity has been stolen since I divorced Billy J as I am the Uptown Girl.
Best regards,
ChristyB
T
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: Nino at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (J09LX)
All those people getting nekkid on Skype (and I think we can find some scenarios where that's not a thing to be ashamed of...spouse away for a few months, that sort of thing) thinking it wasn't public have got to be real thrilled.
Posted by: HeatherRadish™ drinking beer at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (hO8IJ)
Posted by: Jack at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (gWHwW)
Posted by: Chique d'afrique PhD MD DDS JD MBA at June 06, 2013 04:49 PM (r+7wo)
stop right there -- that's precisely it. What I see is that everyone is hardening into a position and the fact is we barely know anything yet.
I don't know how this is done, or why it is done, or what the options are, or what the consequences are, or what the benefits might be (such as avoiding attacks, if that's true).
I would say none of us know-- the story just came out two hours ago and isn't more than a brief sketchy introduction.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Cartman's _Evil_Twin at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (Sedwk)
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: Juan de Hattatime at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (CqZmo)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (2yngH)
Posted by: caunotacarius at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (SHvfC)
Posted by: Warden at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (HzhBE)
Fancy a cookie?
Posted by: My Sharia Moor at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (0duDc)
If you could graph Improvement and Govt Interference, you'll see they diverge sharply.
For examples:
-- Health care
-- Foreign affairs
-- the economy
-- Education (quality and costs, including tuition for higher ed )
Posted by: soothsayer, malicious communicator at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (NLH1M)
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 04:50 PM (sOtz/)
After the IRS scandal, they have lost our trust, regardless of how useful and necessary PRISM may be.
without a doubt.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 04:51 PM (LCRYB)
38 I don't trust the current administration and their track record screams abuse of the system for personal gain.
That's what it boils down to, CDR M.
I never worried about Bush using the information against his own people, for political gain.
He always dismissed it as "freedom of speech in action" when people criticized him.
We are living under the harsh rule of a petty, small, vindictive demagogue...who views citizens that criticize him as a bigger enemy than Islamic terrorists.
Posted by: wheatie at June 06, 2013 04:51 PM (ZiafE)
Posted by: juriscani at June 06, 2013 04:51 PM (XvZDQ)
Humans are not rational, they are rationalizing. (I do not recall who said that.)
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Pirate Scum of Umbar at June 06, 2013 04:51 PM (gmoEG)
a LOT, it turns out.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 04:51 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: JT in KC at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (d3BIr)
Why are we bad at human intelligence? We are bad at intelligence because it requires judging people. So we rely on machines, so that will take the "racism" out of it and nab a bad guy with the bomb in his hand getting ready to toss it into a crowd of Americans.
I agree Ace that it's a great sharp tool. But as we see, the pols misuse their tools. They use them against their political opponents to they can win elections and get contributions from people and get really, really rich when they leave office. They use the IRS. The ATF.
So you don't give them sharp tools. That's what our Founders said, and they were right.
Posted by: PJ at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (ZWaLo)
Ace -- I understand your point. I guess I would be less concerned about this issue if government was only doing a few things (e.g., roads, customs, police, military) and not everything (business regulation, financial regulation, health care regulation, public accomodations regulations, labor & workplace regulation, foreign corruption regulation, etc.).
When government has power to regulate everything (and when the importance of running the government becomes more important in order to control the impact of that regulation for your particular tribe), I become worried about the ever greater ways that the data resulting from government surveillance can be misused.
We have heard the allegations of how tax filing information of certain conservative groups in California in the possession of the IRS was leaked to liberal groups. I am concerned that there would be a temptation to similarly missue this Verizon data for purposes other than fighting terrorism.
Again, I understand the dilemma. But as was the case with the IRS, all of this to me becomes an argument for reducing the size of goverment. It simply is too big, too powerful and too easy to abuse its machinery.
Posted by: nc at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (Cxl7g)
WOOHOO!!! I'm in The 10%!
Movin' on up . . .
Posted by: filbert. Just filbert. at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (7vimm)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: sneaky little five-eyes at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (3X3ZR)
Posted by: Bivalve Curious at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (sYUAj)
Posted by: Colossus at June 06, 2013 04:52 PM (ZR4Xh)
The info you mention doesn't enter into it, Ace. It's an issue of trust, of which there is none any longer.
Jesus, I always thought the biggest difference between them and us was that we understood that humans were flawed, and we proceeded on that basis.
Posted by: My Sharia Moor at June 06, 2013 04:53 PM (0duDc)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 04:53 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: soothsayer
----------
From Andy Capp cartoon.
A friend of Andy asks him if he has voted. Capp replies, "Why bother? A politician always wins."
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 04:54 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: Comrade Arthur at June 06, 2013 04:54 PM (5YUSx)
85"The system worked" we say when underwear fails to explode and then immediately mirandize a terrorist once off the plane.
A guy gives a PowerPoint presentation on the horrors he wants to commit, shouts "Allahu Akbar" while doing it and they label it "workplace violence."
Seals fight for seven hours, paint a laser on a target thinking help is on the way, while a stand down order is given. While the fighting is still ongoing a YouTube excuse is born
---------------------
It's like arguing for amnesty now, tougher border restrictions later.
Same deal.
Posted by: Warden at June 06, 2013 04:54 PM (HzhBE)
I don't know how this is done, or why it is done, or what the options are, or what the consequences are, or what the benefits might be (such as avoiding attacks, if that's true).
I would say none of us know-- the story just came out two hours ago and isn't more than a brief sketchy introduction.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 08:50 PM (LCRYB)
Hey, now, there's no need to be reasonable. Now's the time to panic!
Look, I completely agree that saying we must give up SIGINT entirely is *insane*. I am, however, greatly concerned with the erosion of the concept of privacy as well as the more obvious Fourth Amendment issues.
I do appreciate you pointing out that everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath though. Maybe the 24 hour rule should apply to Scandalanche as well.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (Gk3SS)
Plus, I like the way the lung issue played out. The cute girl won and someone else lost because politics. Maybe future medical decisions can be played out like American Idol, "Who wants to receive a heart transplant" game show
Posted by: joeindc44 agrees at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (3KMf/)
Posted by: Minuteman at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (dSE0q)
Posted by: W.O.P.R. at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (dKV5k)
As to what Ace said - just no. The answer to us being lousy at human intelligence is not to spy on every single electronic transmission of every single American. The answer is to GET BETTER AT HUMAN INTELLIGENCE. The answer is to use our military to actually sever the funding and state sponsor system coming out of Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. The answer is never to blatantly and grossly violate the 4th Amendment rights of the average American citizen.
And if you don't believe that this isn't being used against the (to borrow from wingnut Alex Jones) powers that be's enemies, well, I don't know what to tell you. If the IRS is fair game, why not this? Where's the "limiting principle"?
Posted by: WolfinNC at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (HVOxM)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Colossus at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (ZR4Xh)
Now what is to be done?
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Pirate Scum of Umbar at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (gmoEG)
And no dismantling, like it or not, this fence is here to stay. Sill ewok.
Posted by: PRISM at June 06, 2013 04:55 PM (hpYnL)
Period.
The federal government can't be trusted with a lot of powers that it wasn't supposed to have, but has somehow glommed onto.
This Will Not End Well.
Posted by: filbert. Just filbert. at June 06, 2013 04:56 PM (7vimm)
Posted by: The old pirate who sits around drinking rum and singing old pirate songs at June 06, 2013 04:56 PM (p4U6S)
59 "There's a big problem in the world, so we should whittle down the Fourth Amendment just a little more" isn't a sound argument for me. Keep all the tech advantages, just never use them on US citizens.
Posted by: rdbrewer at June 06, 2013 08:48 PM (Iyg03)
--------
But remember...Tzokar Tsarnev was a citizen.
Posted by: wheatie at June 06, 2013 04:56 PM (ZiafE)
The level of personal intelligent he can collect is staggering.
.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 04:56 PM (jvnuj)
Posted by: joeindc44 agrees at June 06, 2013 04:56 PM (3KMf/)
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 04:57 PM (lVPtV)
Posted by: Sarah Conner at June 06, 2013 04:57 PM (p4U6S)
Posted by: CSMBigBird at June 06, 2013 04:57 PM (OFP0k)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 04:57 PM (+98Gb)
Hinderaker's got a somewhat similar post up on Powerline.
Just thought I'd mention that.
My personal gut reaction is that we shouldn't trust the present administration with any more personal data than we absolutely positively are required to let them have.
Posted by: junior at June 06, 2013 04:57 PM (UWFpX)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 04:58 PM (+98Gb)
I really care when the Obama administrations starts to use the power of government to punish his political enemies which includes ME! for political reasons.
Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 06, 2013 04:58 PM (MkY8F)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 04:58 PM (LCRYB)
I've no doubt they'd give us all the finger and climb back into their coffins.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 04:58 PM (lVPtV)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 04:58 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: CSMBigBird at June 06, 2013 04:58 PM (OFP0k)
Posted by: Colossus at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (ZR4Xh)
Lung transplant? Hmmmm... let's look at these records, Citizen. Ace of Spades blog? Oh, dear. That does not play in your favor.
And I see here a phone call to your local Tea Party organization. Tsk tsk. We HAVE been a very bad boy, haven't we?
And what is this I see on Facebook? A picture of a Gadsden Flag. My, oh my. It looks as if someone is going to have to just keep wheezing along without that lung, hmmmmm? Well, I thank you for your inquiring and have a WONDERFUL day.
Posted by: Warden at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (HzhBE)
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (M1gmo)
I say profile like they do in Israel. That is the ticket. The good thing is that everyone is pissed about this intrusion. I suspect there will be more hecklers for the zeros.
I do hope they are enjoying reading my emails. This is why I do not facebook, y'all. I keep telling people not to do this, but to they listen?
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (baL2B)
67 years ago today a battle was winding up where a small US fleet - through extensive signals analysis - defeated a very superior IJN fleet.
A tool can be used for good and for evil.
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Pirate Scum of Umbar at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (gmoEG)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (+98Gb)
we have already watched govt coercion with IRS , EPA, DOJ, against their poltiical rivals, it has now moved to the private citizens, while at the same time they are building the capability and Using it, for Terrorism..
Yet when they were handed gift wrapped information about the Tsarnov brothers they ignored it as not relevant.
This was intelligence service from one country to another..
But seemingly these data bases are for terrorists?
I would like to know if the DHS list of terrorists that included people such as you and i for a variety of reasons , non of which made sense!@!!
we just learned they they took information from 1 million verizon users? but they weren't interested in the possibility of the terrorists possibility thrown in the lap.
that is whay i personally do not find this credible.
Posted by: willow at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 04:59 PM (r+7wo)
Someone today reminded us that Mitt Romney said corporations are people. True enough.
You know what else is people? The federal government. Bought-and-paid-for people. People who have a vested interest in a particular political party.
People with black eyes...like a doll's eyes...okay, okay, that's a bit too much. But my points stand.
Posted by: soothsayer, malicious communicator at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (LPRBM)
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Pirate Scum of Umbar at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (gmoEG)
Posted by: Hanoverfist at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (HiKk0)
No. This total surveillance state is something to fight. It will not end well. Think of all the dystopian sci-fi scenarios you've seen.
Or, imagine Hitler or Stalin had access to this kind of technology for total monitoring of the population.
What is frightening is the predictive power of such data mining. Remember the story of the father who was outraged that Target (or some such) was sending his teenaged daughter targeted ads for maternity products? Then he called later, nevermind, he found out his daughter was indeed pregnant.
How did they know? By predictive data mining. Ie, there's an 80% chance that a female buying this set of products in this span of time is preggers.
It works. Just imagine what the govt. can do with that. They'll know what you're going to do before you do it. I'm sure there is a routine that will predict you politics based on your online activity with 99% accuracy. Now get more specific. What are the chances you will be opposed to a certain policy? What are the chances you will act in some way on that opposition?
This is where this is headed. You do not want to go there.
At this point, I'm ready to go back to the 1800s and live in an isolated cabin somewhere. Now, if I could just take modern medicine and dentistry with me....
Posted by: publius(NotBreitbartPublius) at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (Pqgwi)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: creeper at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (vbzvs)
I knew this would be the glib answer. Avoid hard questions.
Look, we haven't been good at it for 50 years. We still didn't get good at it after 9/11.
This magic option doesn't exist. If we could be good at it we already would have been.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 05:00 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: JEM at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (dNkDl)
Why? It's not enough this is being done without cause or purpose of criminal prosecution?
See comment one about the Fourth Amendment.
Posted by: SGT. York at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (X1kG8)
Posted by: CSMBigBird at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (OFP0k)
"The President has put in place an
organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before
in life," Representative Maxine Waters told Roland Martin on Monday.
"That's going to be very, very powerful," Waters said. "That database
will have information about everything on every individual on ways that
it's never been done before and whoever runs for President on the
Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They're going to go down with
that database and the concerns of those people because they can't get
around it. And he's [President Obama] been very smart. It's very
powerful what he's leaving in place."
Posted by: Revisiting the comments of Maxine Waters at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (ovWeo)
Well this current bunch of fucking retards have already burned some UK embedded assets and got a Pakistani doctor jailed. So there is not particularly good and spectacularly incompetently inept if not malignantly traitorous.
Posted by: Dr. Captain Hate at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (qMDsk)
Oh great so we are so fucking scared of a bunch of pussies that we are willing to give away all of our rights. Perfect that is a brilliant fucking strategy.
So tell me if we are willing to give away our rights so the big bad arab won't take over our country why not just fucking surrender and allow them to run it.
ACE you give away YOUR rights for your safety. I will keep mine and take my chances with my freedom intact.
Posted by: pierre at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (52h7T)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:01 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:02 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 05:02 PM (/jHWN)
This is not the first time Christians have had to defeat Muslim attempts at conquests.
They will not stop, why is this somehow a shock or surprise? It is part of their religion, conquer.
History, anyone know it?
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 06, 2013 09:00 PM (wR+pz
What we need is a new Crusade.
There, I've said it. *flips off DoJ*
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:02 PM (lVPtV)
------------
I assume you mean 'with a warrant'.
Posted by: Lyndon Johnson at June 06, 2013 05:02 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:02 PM (r+7wo)
Posted by: Sean Bannion at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (kIhVA)
Posted by: Gerard Harbison at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (hS3tn)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (QupBk)
Bingo bango.
Here's a super bad analogy that I'm going to use anyway. I have signature authority on the office operating account. I kicked and screamed about being given that authority because I don't want to have the ability to use that money for personal reasons. Now, I like to think that I would never do that because it's wrong but I know that I am human and I can resist anything but temptation. A far more honest answer is that I would never do that because I would get caught and I know it. I didn't want that power because I didn't want even the possibility to abuse it.
Human beings are fallen creatures who, given any chance, will use a tool for the worse possible reason. That is why the Constitutional fence was erected in the first place. It's not because the Founders were noble men. It's because they weren't and they knew it.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: steevy at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (9XBK2)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Eric Holder at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (aGWGv)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 09:01 PM (LCRYB
Ace, honey. We're in a war. You're over-thinking this shit.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:03 PM (lVPtV)
Ace, I'm sorry I'm being glib, but for Christ's sake, we're talking about total surveillance on the American public here. It's not full body scanners or an "enhanced pat down". Every word you write, every search you make, every page you look at, recorded for history.
Tell me, was it easier to arrange this massive intelligence operation, along with the absolutely mind blowing data storage requirement, than it would be to train some American muslims to look like terrorists and report back?
Posted by: WolfinNC at June 06, 2013 05:04 PM (HVOxM)
Posted by: Jack at June 06, 2013 05:04 PM (gWHwW)
Posted by: Admiral Marcus at June 06, 2013 05:04 PM (Jsiw/)
Posted by: CSMBigBird at June 06, 2013 05:04 PM (OFP0k)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 05:04 PM (pzswX)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 05:04 PM (7LQas)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (r+7wo)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 08:45 PM (pzswX)
^^^^THIS^^^^
Our HUMINT sucks because we prostitute our sources.
Posted by: creeper at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (vbzvs)
Posted by: Johann at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (26mV1)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 09:01 PM (LCRYB)
----------------------------
For Christ's sake, ace. Look at all these fucking scandals. Any Republican administration ever look like what's going on today? This fucko literally called half the country the "enemy" and said he was going to "punish" us.
Posted by: Warden at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (HzhBE)
Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am) at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (08XhI)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:05 PM (+98Gb)
@160
Oh yeah,remember the great "micro-targeting" in the 2012 election?
Posted by: steevy at June 06, 2013 09:03 PM (9XBK2)
---- ---- ----- ----- ----- -----
You can search for my comment where I said the microtargeting in FL "felt like a human rights violation." I thought I was joking.
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (sOtz/)
Posted by: wooga at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (EBeyW)
Our former CIA head was out banging his biographer and being stalked by another crazy broad.
National security really wasn't his top priority, now, was it? Meanwhile, all his underlings are running amok in the CIA, doing who-knows-what for Obama.
Posted by: soothsayer, malicious communicator at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (yhYn1)
Ace, honey. We're in a war. You're over-thinking this shit.
I don't think I'm over-thinking, I think I'm thinking, and I don't ever think that thinking is a bad thing.
Not you, but a lot of people are really angry at me for saying "We need to know more."
This is a bad sign, when large decisions are being made simply on emotion.
Anyone calling me a "coward" as some squeakhole did above because I want to know *what we're losing* before we just give up the fight against Al Qaeda to focus on the Enemy in Office (gee, that doesn't remind me of anyone on the left) is not thinking, he's emoting, and emotionalism is no more manly than quivering cowardice.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (ZPrif)
They still followed through.
Lets say Obama doesn't wipe us out, Who will decided what personal information can personally destroy my ability to vote ? or take my freedom for an opinion?
What President will be next with this information at His fingertips?
Posted by: willow at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (nqBYe)
Posted by: Jack at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (gWHwW)
Posted by: Colossus at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (ZR4Xh)
That fucking fence is a-comin' down in a fuckin' hurry if I have anything to do wit it
Posted by: Albie Damned at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (Yhu4q)
Posted by: Warden at June 06, 2013 09:05 PM (HzhBE
Fucking THIS^^^^^^^
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (lVPtV)
Posted by: ace
-----------------------
Nor do I. Which is to say that I want to be thoughtful and rational in my thoughts and actions. The problem is that progressive elements *will* abuse any system that *can* be abused, thus, what seem excessive safeguards must be in place.
Posted by: Lyndon Johnson at June 06, 2013 05:06 PM (aDwsi)
The problem with your point of view, Ace, is that the current White House is targeting American Citizens rather than Muslim Supremecists.
Gotta be some explanation for that. Must think, must think ...
Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 06, 2013 05:07 PM (Z2Bkq)
This is not a fence my friend. No, it is more like a net. And the net does not discriminate, nor does it allow one to open/close it. It catches everything and THEN chooses to do what it wants with the bounty. A gate/fence is nothing but an obstacle to go around, deter, etc. The net on the other hand, works by being out of site until the moment it is too late to react.
I refuse to be part of some goddam, mf'ing, unsuspecting catch - having to constantly be figuring out the best way to avoid it as I go along my otherwise merry way. Not sure how you feel about this? Have fun in the net with the rest of the catch - you'll be next week's fish fry special.
I want my AoA subscription money back.
Posted by: David Duke at June 06, 2013 05:07 PM (m50qE)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:07 PM (+98Gb)
The "telescreen" of 1984 fame was never really a threat. The assumption was always a human watcher at the other end, and when it came down to it, simple human observation could never be all that pervasive over millions of citizens. There just aren't enough observers to go around.
Now data is being increasingly stored in central databases, or easily accessed by the terabyte from other large databases. Phone records, security cameras, e-mail, internet activity...it's all flowing into one large data sea. Faster and faster. More importantly, immensely powerful computing systems are on line that can sift data according to complicated algorithms, connect millions of data points in various ways, and can even recognize visual data, including one face among thousands.
It won't be that long before it would be theoretically possible to show a computing system a photograph of someone, and have it return with the information that this person was at a Macy's in Pittsburgh two hours ago.
This is as close to omniscience as anything built by humans can get. We're a long way from the bored dude in the SecPol room watching fifty TV screens for something suspicious.
Yeah, I'm a little more worried about this sort of thing than I would have been thirty years ago.
Posted by: TB at June 06, 2013 05:07 PM (oRwRM)
Posted by: sneaky little five-eyes at June 06, 2013 05:07 PM (3X3ZR)
Posted by: Minuteman at June 06, 2013 05:07 PM (dSE0q)
Posted by: Tommy at June 06, 2013 05:08 PM (ZYlKz)
Posted by: Albie Damned at June 06, 2013 05:08 PM (Yhu4q)
Posted by: CK at June 06, 2013 05:08 PM (LmD/o)
especially since November 2008! Look at the buffoons he surrounds himself with! Bundlers. People he owes. No one instills confidence. Well, Petraeus did, and I think he was blackmailed and we have not heard the last of the CIA on Benghazi (ping! a magic word).
I will not accept that this is good, Ace, considering the spying on the Tea Party stuff on top of this. They are simply looking for those who disagree politically to target. The Boston Bombers (ping!) caught them with their pants down. They tried very hard, with that terrorist attack (ping!) as well as Benghazi (ping!) to change the subject of radical islamic terrorism (this ping is ignored and not in data mining alarm system). Too many worms spoil the apple, or whatever. Too many scandals. Too many shady characters. No rose colored glasses for Christy headed for the camps.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 05:08 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: rockmom at June 06, 2013 05:08 PM (Ea7Up)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 06, 2013 05:08 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: Albie Damned at June 06, 2013 05:09 PM (Yhu4q)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 05:09 PM (pzswX)
I don't go for this idea of, 'they bomb us, we further shred the Constitution'.
Posted by: mugiwara at June 06, 2013 05:09 PM (hpYnL)
Hey, maybe he just wants to golf through the rest of his presidency
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 05:09 PM (jvnuj)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:09 PM (r+7wo)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 05:10 PM (ujux6)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:10 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:10 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Serious Cat at June 06, 2013 05:10 PM (UOjzE)
Posted by: YIKES! at June 06, 2013 05:10 PM (mETGQ)
Ace is trying to reason his way out of a problem which is based on the naked exercise of brute force for political power. If we are lucky our opponents will turn out to be more like the British (the 'colonialists' they hate) than Mao (the guy they admired in college).
Yeah, not optimistic.
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 05:11 PM (sOtz/)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:11 PM (r+7wo)
>>>Nowdata is being increasingly stored in central databases, or easily accessed by the terabyte from other large databases. Phone records, security cameras, e-mail, internet activity...it's all flowing into one large data sea. Faster and faster. More importantly, immensely powerfulcomputing systems are on line that can sift data according to complicated algorithms, connect millions of data points in various ways, and can even recognize visual data, includingone face among thousands.
True. I meant to say this in connection with the DNA sampling case. *Human limits* previously imposed practical-level limitations that don't exist now, due to technology.
That said... Let me remind everyone, in case we've all collectively forgotten, we kind of used to sort of want to make sure 9/11 didn't happen again, and weren't quite as cavalier as the left in saying things like "If another city is blown up, such are the risks of freedom."
Like I said, I don't know what this system is. No one does yet, not really. I want to find out more.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 05:11 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Albie Damned at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (Yhu4q)
Posted by: MallardDuckLintBrush at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (7/4Fi)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (+98Gb)
I normally can't stomach Piers Morgan but he just interviewed Glenn Greenwald, the UK Guardian reporter who broke both the Verizon and PRISM stories and I am so impressed.
Will look for the clip and try to post later.
Greenwald is the real deal. A principled journalist.
Posted by: wyntre at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (MrQiL)
Posted by: The Totally Drunken Adult in The Room at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (gWHwW)
Let's begin with just the unreasonable search angle...sorry, but EVERY DAMN THING FROM EVERY DAMN ONE cannot be contained in a single warrant. That level of surveillance does not pass any reasonable threshold. We've gone off our legal rocker here.
Second, the idea of vesting one branch of the government, especially the executive, with that much power only winds up at one outcome. Nefarious intent with PRISM data even at a low level could far outstrip anything that the Gestapo, Stasi, or KGB even accomplished.
Third, the reason that we even have to go down this path is that we have not sent a clear message about screwing with the U.S. since 1945. Trying to parse military action never produces decisive results. It is perverse that twelve years after we invaded Afghanistan that our government has to fawn over Hamid Karzai, tightrope walk around what we say or write about Islam, AND SPY ON ALL OF OUR CITIZENS.
This is the nadir of the Republic. Right now. Not 1861, not Bull Connor, not the death of JFK, not Richard Nixon, not the fall of Saigon, not "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Right now. Get serious or lose our liberty. Right now.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (aMRJe)
Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at June 06, 2013 05:12 PM (RZ8pf)
Posted by: Name Redacted at June 06, 2013 05:13 PM (t8sr/)
...at the moment, the Obama administration controls those parameters. I don't find that a comfort
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 05:13 PM (3WUPt)
Posted by: Robert Clayton Dean at June 06, 2013 05:13 PM (e8kgV)
The reason we're in this intelligence mess that Ace speaks of is because of political correctness in our law enforcement. Major Hassan gave off plenty of obvious red-flags and we WILLFULLY ignored them.
Posted by: Dr Crapola at June 06, 2013 05:13 PM (/5apW)
Posted by: Tommy at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (ZYlKz)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (r+7wo)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Nom de Blog at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (JSmUP)
I barely trusted Bush with this power I do not trust Obama and as such I now trust no one....
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (wR+pz)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: LGoPs at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (Zid/C)
Piers Morgan of all people!
He was the one of the major players behind that UK's Mirror spying scandal.
Posted by: soothsayer, malicious communicator at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (1WM2H)
Posted by: Inspector Asshole at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (Up4f+)
sneering dismissiveness? Why not like the left at all.
Obviously if you put absurd claims into my mouth you can make me speak any horrible argument you like, Albie Damned. Why stop here? Why not just say I'm also a fag for Obama?
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 05:14 PM (LCRYB)
I asked earlier today if the paper where the guy made a huge advance in determining prime number pairs had implications for cryptography.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:15 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 05:15 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:15 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:16 PM (GEICT)
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The total surveillance state is absolute power. We are headed for any number of sci-fi dystopian futures. I do not want to go there. But I fear it's too late.
As Patrick Henry asked, is life so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased with chains and slavery?
If Hitler had this tech, there wouldn't be a Jew left alive today.
And don't think "but we're the good guys". You aren't good guys for too long with access to this sort of power. Remember, that power corrupts. Quickly.
Posted by: publius(NotBreitbartPublius) at June 06, 2013 05:17 PM (Pqgwi)
Posted by: Jones in CO at June 06, 2013 05:17 PM (8sCoq)
Posted by: Serious Cat at June 06, 2013 05:17 PM (UOjzE)
Posted by: someguy at June 06, 2013 05:17 PM (8XRrT)
The basic counterterror position of the entire West, with no exceptions I am aware of, is to encourage Muslims to accomplish peacefully what other Muslims are trying to accomplish through violence.
Today I read an article with a quote from a French politician taking on the far-right for a murder in the way you'd expect, which is to say nothing like they talk about Islamic violence.
We're just negotiating a surrender at this point.
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 05:17 PM (sOtz/)
I've never put anything in your mouth..pun barely intended...
you're not bothered at all that a party that views domestic political opponents as "the real terrorists" is acting this way after their histrionics under Bush?
No snark I'm wondering...
I think you overestimate some of our ineptitude on humint...it's voluntary idiocy hyper charged by the Church commission and these same mules....
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:17 PM (LRFds)
However, the Fourth Amendment is quite specific, regarding searches and seizures.
For instance, we do not know for certain, I guess, that some judge somewhere did not issue 300 million subpoenas for the phone records of every single American citizen.
Given recent events, I actually do not consider that this is beyond the realm of possibility. It is also a total shredding of any Constitutional protection against unreasonable searches.
Of course, again given recent events, there is precious little evidence that the federal government in general feels constrained any more by a late-Eighteenth Century document which has failed to grow and live with the times. Unfortunately, that same late-Eighteenth-Century document is the very instrument by which the federal government legally wields any power at all in the first place.
We inch ever closer to the chasm. We can see the edge from here, now.
And yet, we continue to inch closer.
Posted by: filbert. Just filbert. at June 06, 2013 05:18 PM (7vimm)
Posted by: alexthechick
----------
Perhaps. Why do you ask?
Posted by: 104729 at June 06, 2013 05:18 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:18 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: Neo at June 06, 2013 05:18 PM (3EvWK)
I am a being of lofty expectations, yes.
RE: Greenwald. I loathe his politics just as much as he loathes mine but he has been consistent on this issue. Credit where credit is due, both to him and his socks.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:18 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:18 PM (ZPrif)
The key disconnect here is that we are NOT really good at Signals Intelligence either...
Just when have we stopped something? Just where were the WMDs in Iraq? Just where was Osama? Pearl Harbor Anyone? Hindenburg Letter???
We SUCK at the spy biz... but we EXCELL at the blow shit up biz...
So why are we playing to our weakness, and not our strength...
And why are we allowing a Government the SUCKS at spying, to spy on its own Citizens?
Posted by: Romeo13 at June 06, 2013 05:19 PM (lZBBB)
Posted by: YIKES! at June 06, 2013 05:19 PM (mETGQ)
Like I said, I don't know what this system is. No one does yet, not really. I want to find out more.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 09:11 PM (LCRYB)
Another problem with this system is if they are obtaining all this content and given how incompetent everyone in our government is, what is to stop all these data breaches that the Chinese and other ilk are doing now? All it would take is one breach and people get their information stolen.
Not to mention the integrity of the other alphabet agencies and their "altruistic" actions they have taken thus far. Is this something people are seriously OK with???
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 05:19 PM (M1gmo)
No, Ace is right, this is what we need. Now be sure to let the govt. know also if any of your neighbors are military vets, one of those "Tea Baggers", or just has one of those scary assault rifles. All in the name of security, bitches. AttackWatch.com, suckas!
Posted by: Pres. Barack Obama at June 06, 2013 05:19 PM (JoIcn)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:19 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes C'est Magnifique at June 06, 2013 05:20 PM (kXoT0)
Posted by: John Q. Public at June 06, 2013 05:20 PM (ZsBwc)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:20 PM (GEICT)
You okay? Shit's heading this way.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:20 PM (lVPtV)
Don't let up on your reps. And don't care what ideological stripe they are...this is beyond creepy.
I'm thisclose to putting myself on a path for office.
Give your money to causes that you trust.
Don't let the idiot idea brigade go unchallenged. Ever.
Pray. Yes, I am serious.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at June 06, 2013 05:20 PM (aMRJe)
"The Espionage Act of June 1917 and the Sedition Act of May 1918 made it illegal, under penalty of imprisonment, to utter any criticism of the government -- even in the privacy of one's own home."
I firmly believe this is what they were data mining for with the Tea Party and IRS mess to use as a tool of intimidation. This is also the common thread of what Janet and others were looking for in evangelical terroirsts. This is what zero even spoke of at a commencement address...basically warning them not to pay attention to anyone who may offer an idea counter to his rainbows of unicorn farts and hope and change. Freedom of speech? What about the spying on reporters and pressure on their little cabal to print what they want with their little doughnut and coffee confabs with Jay? Too many dots connected.
Now, back to camp: who is in charge of linens? We need elections asap. I need to plan, peoples.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 05:21 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: LiV at June 06, 2013 05:21 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Lauren at June 06, 2013 05:21 PM (wsGWu)
I am also a being of constant disappointment.
Case in point, no one on the Spurs ha accidentally punched Lebron smack in his crapweasel face yet.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:21 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 05:22 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at June 06, 2013 05:22 PM (+98Gb)
Posted by: MallardDuckLintBrush at June 06, 2013 05:22 PM (7/4Fi)
Posted by: filbert. Just filbert. at June 06, 2013 09:18 PM (7vimm)
the Fourth says we are safe in our persons, and our Papers...
The left believes, that since email and electronics records are just electrons... they are not papers, and thus not covered.
The courts go along, because they are All lawyers...
Posted by: Romeo13 at June 06, 2013 05:22 PM (lZBBB)
Posted by: Holger at June 06, 2013 05:22 PM (MHk3m)
I think our side reflexively pretends the democrats are as interested in stopping Radical Islam as they are in making "worker's oparadise"....
I am not under that illusion....
The N$A games are aimed at criminalizing conservatism
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:22 PM (LRFds)
When Obama does the exact same thing as bush, hes big brother. I smell delusion of epic proportion.
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 05:23 PM (7LQas)
Let's assume the NSA has good software to winnow the email of 310 million people each day. Hey, I have good spamfilters, let's start there...
If the corrupt bastards (and yes, I'm a bitter-clinger who HATES this government, as well as raisin-balls SCOAMF Ogolfeline) are forced to wade through the drudgery of all the spam, adverts, porn solicitations, and mundane business email average government haters across the fruited plain deal with every day... then I'm more pissed about paying some pensioned employee than I am about the endeavor overall. An oh yeah, it's still unconstitutional.
If you want to read the bullshit I delete by the hundreds each day, then fuck you and your job sucks. Also, fuck you.
Posted by: the botnet at June 06, 2013 05:23 PM (6PDiu)
Posted by: Inspector Asshole at June 06, 2013 05:23 PM (Up4f+)
Link to basic overview in nic. Posted by: MallardDuckLintBrush at June 06, 2013 09:22 PM (7/4Fi)
Thanks!
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:24 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Albie Damned at June 06, 2013 05:24 PM (Yhu4q)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:24 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at June 06, 2013 09:20 PM (aMRJe)
Circa...earlier last month Mike Hammer requested we all write, per snail mail and/or fax, our representatives in Congress. Request a real letter, not a form letter. Do not email, as all you will receive is a form letter.
I think we should write Congress about all of these scandals and this mess we are in. By golly, if they already have my name, then they may as well have me on record, no? I will go down in flames I guess. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSIONAL REPS A LETTER. They have to answer you.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 05:24 PM (baL2B)
So I will leave you with the original Japanese language version of a scene that TPH posted earlier. http://youtu.be/mi5GFuvCIp4
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 05:24 PM (pzswX)
Posted by: Lauren at June 06, 2013 09:08 PM (wsGWu
fucking THIS^^^^^^
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 09:09 PM (lVPtV)
---
Well.... you dont think they were actually looking for terrorists with all that data do you.
Remember all the day-after-the-election stories about the DNC tailoring messages to individual voters and how succeesful the get out the vote effort was because "they knew who and where all those voters were".
hmmmm.....
Posted by: fixerupper at June 06, 2013 05:25 PM (IrLKP)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:25 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: MallardDuckLintBrush at June 06, 2013 05:25 PM (7/4Fi)
That's not thinking, that's typing.
/sorry about that, Ace, but it's not every day you get this big of a hanging-curve of a Truman Capote joke teed up for you . . .
Posted by: filbert. Just filbert. at June 06, 2013 05:26 PM (7vimm)
Posted by: sneaky little five-eyes at June 06, 2013 05:26 PM (3X3ZR)
Posted by: Curiouser and curiouser at June 06, 2013 05:26 PM (f1Yw6)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:26 PM (GEICT)
Yeah, it's been really nasty here today. A tornado hit down at the beach. It hit a mile due east of my parents' house. Apparently while we were driving to my parents' for dinner.
The house it hit is actually my daughter's dance studio owner's house. Craziness.
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 09:24 PM (GEICT
Glad you're okay. It's going to hit us overnight (yay!). Our local meteorologist said we also will have major flooding and trees coming down.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:27 PM (lVPtV)
Here is my problem with PRISM and where it leads:
But
Posted by: Guy Mohawk, future kulak at June 06, 2013 05:27 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: notropis at June 06, 2013 05:27 PM (7srfA)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 06, 2013 05:27 PM (Vk2pI)
Ace, I can appreciate that you want to think and have more information in order to make q decision. I would like to know where you will get the additional information and how will you determine the veracity and the accuracy of that formation?
I don't think that short of seeing the actual operations occurring and seeing the raw data being gathered and processed you can make an informed decision. NOTHING this administration says can be accepted at face value.
Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at June 06, 2013 05:28 PM (euACX)
This assumes the system isn't already being used to look at domestic citizens' information, similar to the IRS sharing information illegally.
Oh, who am I kidding? Of course its already being abused.
Plus, still illegal. 4th Amendment.
Posted by: Gaff at June 06, 2013 05:28 PM (iV8i3)
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (/jHWN)
Posted by: Huggy at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (nKTo2)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Bill R. at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (EYV/G)
Posted by: Jones in CO at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (8sCoq)
Pros are going to use steganography, OTP's, very low bandwidth transmission means, and "plain sight" like a "lost cat" posting on the local supermarket public bulletin board.
All of that stuff is highly resistant to machine analysis.
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (3WUPt)
Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (dh83Q)
Wired magazine has been writing about the giant NSA data centers being built for a few years now and I pretty much thought everyone knew that there was only one purpose for such enormous data server farms for a government agency.
The information is being sifted by computers, but someone is at the helm telling the computers what to look for and the issue becomes who controls what is defined as "criminal" enough behavior to have their communications bumped higher up the spy chain.
Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (RZ8pf)
I love the announcers pointing out that Tim Duncan has more playoff wins than something like 20 current NBA teams.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:29 PM (Gk3SS)
Me, a line has been crossed. And I'm thinking about just what to do. This would require an organized movement, and one that would incur some pain and inconveniece (something us 'Mericans aren't good at lately). And it's this:
Boycott all the phone companies and perhaps even ISPs. Cancel your phone accounts, hell internet accounts. If enough people did this, it would cause an earthquake, the loss of revenue causing the telecoms to go ape shit, which would then force Congress to do something.
Just say no, I refuse to spend any more money on telecom until Congress nips the Surveillence State in the bub and makes this shit illegal.
That's what I'm willing to do if enough people would join in. It would be hell, living without moden communications and even the Internet, but if enough people did it, that would send a message like no other.
Posted by: publius(NotBreitbartPublius) at June 06, 2013 05:30 PM (Pqgwi)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 09:25 PM (ZPrif)
----
I heard those things are carcinogenic. As a matter of fact.... I read that right here on AoSHQ.
Posted by: fixerupper at June 06, 2013 05:30 PM (IrLKP)
Posted by: Jones in CO at June 06, 2013 05:30 PM (8sCoq)
all of this ties into the aftermath of Vietnam and Watergate both and the democrats trying to codify an uneven political battlefield for the US internationally and the GOP domestically.
The Democrat party was infiltrated by KGB sympathizers and operatives starting in the 30s at the latest and perhaps as early as the 20s....
I can show you a list of donk burned humint assets as long as my arm....
Nixon was guilty of "playing like a democrat while GOP" and little else
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:30 PM (LRFds)
I don't trust it either (I hope that's obvious) but then why are we permitting Obama to have a standing army? I think it's obvious we shouldn't disband the armed forces simply because Obama may order them to attack us.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 05:31 PM (LCRYB)
Everyone else should think about sending turd pics too so we can see how well this technology weeds out the false negatives.
Posted by: David Duke at June 06, 2013 05:31 PM (m50qE)
What we do know: This administration is willing to use the vast power of the federal government to harass and intimidate political opponents.
Since this program is looking domestically, how much of a stretch would it be to use this program to collect information on the political opposition. What if the algorithms catch "tea party" or "liberty" or whatever to gather political intelligence on us.
I have no problem with a program that targets our enemies, but I'm getting a bit quessy about a system that can be abused and used against American's exercising their Constitutional rights. I'm sure want to hear more about how this works and who is in control.
Posted by: Rich at June 06, 2013 05:31 PM (rLXsW)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 06, 2013 05:31 PM (Vk2pI)
a lot of our "ineptitude" is a result of the new left demanding we grant the SOVs "easy mode" in covert ops
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:32 PM (LRFds)
Once you give the government a power -- any power -- you must tacitly accept that it will be twisted and used to the detriment of your own freedom, and to the freedom of every American.
And, I don't mean a mild form of twisting -- I mean full on abuse. You will get government employees who will spy on others, politicians who will conduct opposition research through the email net to destroy their political rivals, and other malicious developments, such as the maintenance, growth and cross-linking of databases tracking individual Americans in order to make the tracking more efficient.
Your politicians and bureaucrats will lie in your face as to whether they are abusing the power that they have, all the while pushing the envelope behind the scenes to exploit its capacity even more.
Whether this tradeoff is acceptable to you, for an increased feeling of safety, is a question each person has to answer on their own. Put another way, how many lives (if any) would you be willing to sacrifice in the aggregate in order to preserve your privacy?
Posted by: Revenant at June 06, 2013 05:32 PM (9wUYb)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:32 PM (GEICT)
I understand what Ace is saying, and in a completely value-neutral environment, his observation is valid - this is a system that could be valuable given privacy protections for normal folks.
But, as many of the Horde have said, this absolute treasure trove of personal information has been given not to a benevolent government responsive to the will of the people. Our government has been operating on its own principles, according to it's own will for decades now. Constitution be damned, individual interest be damned, the government has gotten what it wants for years now.
That government is now being controlled by a President who has Marxist leanings, who has spoken about his political opponents as enemies, who has not hidden his desire to increase his power by any means necessary, and who has demonstrated his willingness to use his power to intimidate and silence anyone who stands in his way. Take away the US flag and the aura of benevolence that we've imbued our elected leaders with over 230 some-odd years, and you have an almost textbook definition of tyranny.
I would be nervous giving this information to George Washington. I'm terrified giving it to Barack Obama.
Posted by: WolfinNC at June 06, 2013 05:32 PM (HVOxM)
Posted by: Jean at June 06, 2013 05:32 PM (CMlD4)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (r+7wo)
you think you're being funny...I'm not laughing Obama is using our mil assets in support of rad Islam my friend....
my wife didn't swear an oath for that
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (LRFds)
Bad move. That's instantly going to flag you as a malcontent.
Better to continue on normally and adopt some of the alternative means I just listed for resistance communications.
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (3WUPt)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (ZPrif)
I have a nearly 80 year old father with significant health problems. If you think I am living without the means for someone to get in contact with me immediately when, not if, but when he has a major health problem, you are not only fucking high but utterly insane.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Inspector Asshole at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (Up4f+)
Posted by: sneaky little five-eyes at June 06, 2013 05:33 PM (3X3ZR)
how many times have you seen me saying we need to reverse engineer the mulke web?
The difference is I am not using non partisan US assets to do so...
I'd bet my left nut Ogabe is
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:34 PM (LRFds)
Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at June 06, 2013 09:29 PM (dh83Q)
We are too politically correct now to have and use HUMINT.
Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/s][/u] at June 06, 2013 05:34 PM (X6akg)
Someone has stolen my identity! I am not responsible for the content of this message, dear overlords reading this!
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 05:34 PM (baL2B)
Posted by: someguy at June 06, 2013 05:35 PM (8XRrT)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:35 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:35 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:36 PM (r+7wo)
When the FISA courts were first enacted, the idea was that if there were known or suspected terrorists making phone calls to phones in the United States, the FBI/NSA could get a warrant to surveil those phones, as we wanted to know if they were contacting conspirators in the U.S. The program was predicated on having reasonable suspicion, that suspicion being a phone to or from a known or suspected terrorist.
So far, pretty reasonable, although this is where the giant papier-mache puppet heads hit the street along with a bunch of shrieking about "Big Brother", "1984" and my all time favorite, Teh Bushitler.
Today, from what I've read so far, this is not targeted surveillance, it is wholesale data-mining. What the NSA seems to be doing is collecting a searchable database of all calls and all emails, that anyone has sent or received in the United States. EVER.
Now ask yourself, Ace, is there any possible security threat so dire that we need to allow our government to collect a database that records every citizens's phone calls and electronic communications, to include posts, comments, emails, facebook updates or Tweets - EVER?
If you can answer that in the affirmative, I hope there's a tranquilizer dart speeding its way to your neck, because you're crazy.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 06, 2013 05:36 PM (JDIKC)
Couldn't PRISM be used to ensure that this administration just keeps going? Maybe those who occupy the Oval Office,etc.change, but the PRISM data can be used to ensure that anyone running against these key players have damaging personal data revealed, or judges are nudged, etc.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 05:36 PM (jvnuj)
Finding doesn't mean political correctness allows for acting.
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 05:36 PM (3WUPt)
Posted by: baldilocks at June 06, 2013 05:36 PM (Su0W2)
A point about "mirroring the hyperpartisan left". In our system, and hell, most systems, it's not your friends who expose your faults and crimes. It's the opposition. When guys you like are in power, one tends to "let it slide". We did that under Bush, now they do it under OrwellBama. I never was that keen on the Patriot Act, being more of a libertarian bent, but I didn't go too wild about it.
But that's the way it works. It wasn't Nixon's friends who exposed him. It was his political enemies, which happened to include the press. The press is now the president's political friends.
It is the role of the opposition to go "hyper" and point out what power is doing.
It's a function of the opposition, to be a watchdog and yell and scream about shit those in power do. That's the way it works. Which is why totalitarians have to get rid of the opposition.
Posted by: publius(NotBreitbartPublius) at June 06, 2013 05:37 PM (Pqgwi)
That is a situation that could only happen if one thing were true.
Posted by: Inspector Asshole at June 06, 2013 09:33 PM (Up4f+)
----- ----- ------ ----- -----
America has become a lot like the old Soviet Union.
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 05:37 PM (sOtz/)
Shorter Jeff:
When you say rethink this PRISM program, do you mean:
Maybe that's not what they're doing,
or
That is what they're doing, and maybe there's a reason why it's okay.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 06, 2013 05:37 PM (JDIKC)
Haven't heard a peep from anyone since.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:37 PM (lVPtV)
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (V1ZIU)
Posted by: Flatbush Joe at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (ZPrif)
Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am) at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (08XhI)
Couldn't PRISM be used to ensure that this administration just keeps going? Maybe those who occupy the Oval Office,etc.change, but the PRISM data can be used to ensure that anyone running against these key players have damaging personal data revealed, or judges are nudged, etc.
Posted by: Lizzy at June 06, 2013 09:36 PM (jvnuj)
Don't be silly. Nobody has ever used organs of the state developed for one thing in a partisan fashion to bully its opponents....
Posted by: cthulhu at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (T1005)
Posted by: rickl at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: Underground Vulgarian at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (ZhWMi)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (r+7wo)
Posted by: Jones in CO at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (8sCoq)
going through our household goods....
playing lawn boy...wife is on a 30 day business trip and I get cranky a bit....
miss y'all but I lurk and pop in
Posted by: Dr. sven10077@sven10077 MD at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (LRFds)
He ok? Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 09:35 PM (GEICT)
He's doing fairly well, knock wood. He fell and broke his knee cap so he had to have surgery for that. It was a silver lining kind of thing because it made him go for the PT he needed for his Parkinson's but was being stubborn about doing.
He's still having some stiffness issues but that's to be expected, what with the six screws in his knee. All told, he had as good a recovery as we could hope.
Posted by: alexthechick - SMOD. Take us away. at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (Gk3SS)
Posted by: Giant orb at June 06, 2013 05:38 PM (va1qF)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 05:39 PM (SzAZ7)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:39 PM (QupBk)
Because someguy on the internet told him to. Literally.
Posted by: Blanco Basura at June 06, 2013 05:40 PM (jGsIV)
Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am) at June 06, 2013 05:41 PM (08XhI)
Killing them all. Goat after goat, cell after cell, village after village, army after army
Cut, jib, newsletter.
Posted by: Blanco Basura at June 06, 2013 05:41 PM (jGsIV)
Posted by: Jean at June 06, 2013 09:32 PM (CMlD4)
Key Point= 4th amendment violation. Get a warrant.
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 05:41 PM (M1gmo)
Posted by: notropis at June 06, 2013 05:42 PM (7srfA)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 09:31 PM (LCRYB
I can't imagine a single member of our military turning on our citizenry. Some of the officers, perhaps, but the enlisteds, NCOs, no fucking way.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 05:42 PM (lVPtV)
Posted by: land of sky blue water at June 06, 2013 05:42 PM (JoIcn)
Hewitt did his little push-back dance again today. The reason why he's not worried about potential abuses of these systems? "Those people are trained."
There you go. They have training so nothing to worry about, peon. Apparently the Fed's have access to some form of training that cures all human frailties and base motivations. Posted by: weft cut-loop at June 06, 2013 09:10 PM
A domestic drone nut on HotAir the other day said, to paraphrase, "All we have to do is set up some guidelines."
Posted by: rdbrewer at June 06, 2013 05:42 PM (Iyg03)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:42 PM (QupBk)
Nerds: "Uh..., okay boss..., but what should we use as a model?"
NSA boss: "Just use Ace of Spades HQ posts."
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 05:43 PM (aDwsi)
Everyone wave to the nice government agent sorting our data through a SQL query to look for tea party terrorists, of course.
Posted by: Gaff at June 06, 2013 05:43 PM (iV8i3)
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at June 06, 2013 05:43 PM (GEICT)
Posted by: Kreplach at June 06, 2013 05:43 PM (zOP5o)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 08:40 PM (LCRYB)
I haven't read through everything yet so someone may have covered this, but my response is Ben Franklin, liberty, security, deserve neither - some assembly required.
Posted by: LT at June 06, 2013 05:43 PM (1GjBY)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 06, 2013 05:44 PM (7mQyC)
There are far fewer people in a terrorist organization and therefore fewer potential spies. And while a disillusioned Soviet might turn spy for us, a disillusioned Al Qaeda is likely just to quit the group. Thereby taking himself out of a position where he could serve as a useful spy.
More likely, said disillusioned Islamist would end up dead, with the same "no useful spy" result as a departure.
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 05:44 PM (o44nj)
Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at June 06, 2013 05:44 PM (pzswX)
>>>I can't imagine a single member of our military turning on our citizenry.
I can think of a few who might...
Posted by: Nidal Hassan at June 06, 2013 05:44 PM (dIDwU)
Posted by: Lauren at June 06, 2013 05:44 PM (wsGWu)
Is there an Issa hearing tomorrow? Cannot keep up.
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 05:45 PM (baL2B)
That point of view is just wrong and paranoid.
Anyone with common sense knows that you have to use NoSQL and Big Data techniques for that much intrusive surveillance data. SQL will not cut it.
Posted by: Splunge at June 06, 2013 05:45 PM (bKA83)
Posted by: ThisBeingMilt at June 06, 2013 05:45 PM (7mQyC)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons,
houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable
searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly
describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.
Get a fucking warrant or STFU.
This NSA domestic stuff is bullshit.
That is NOT their job.
Posted by: ChrisP at June 06, 2013 05:46 PM (IqvbD)
I think it's the former, although I think the shorter answer is, we don't give Obama the benefit of the doubt, ever.
On the other hand, part of what I got from Ace's point is that we don't need to be the 180 degree opposite of everything they do. We can examine stuff, and then decide if it all needs to be tossed out, some of it, or in rare cases kept as is.
Anyway, that's my take because I seriously doubt Ace is suddenly saying Hooray for Domestic Spying!
Posted by: BurtTC at June 06, 2013 05:46 PM (BeSEI)
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at June 06, 2013 05:46 PM (aMRJe)
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 05:47 PM (o44nj)
Posted by: BlackOrchid at June 06, 2013 05:47 PM (2up3Q)
as long as you understand that we might have no intelligence if not for this sort.
We don't do anything sensible with the intel that we do have.
Posted by: garrett at June 06, 2013 05:47 PM (dIDwU)
Posted by: wooga at June 06, 2013 05:47 PM (EBeyW)
At this rate, I expect the Friday news dump to inform us that we have a nano-satellite orbiting all our heads.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at June 06, 2013 09:46 PM (aMRJe)
The Friday news dump will be a dumping of ordnance on us.
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 05:48 PM (o44nj)
http://tinyurl.com/k8be2ho
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 05:48 PM (M1gmo)
I don't trust it either (I hope that's obvious) but then why are we
permitting Obama to have a standing army? I think it's obvious we
shouldn't disband the armed forces simply because Obama may order them
to attack us.
----------------------------
I am going to fuck this strawman to death.
Your oath of enlistment is "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
What does the UCMJ say about orders to attack your fellow citizens?
It's against it.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 06, 2013 05:48 PM (JDIKC)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:48 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: Captain Whitebread, Low Level Superhero at June 06, 2013 05:49 PM (5J54Q)
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Franklin
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Jefferson
Think about that, if we are willing to listen to our fears and succumb to the idea that the government can create some safe zone inside a panopticon society, at best it will be a benevolent tyranny, history is littered with benevolent tyranny's right?
On the other hand, a true liberty loving patriot understands that his liberty is going to cost blood, because the free society is open to attack from the tyrannical. But a patriot is willing to accept that risk, and deal with the attacks on a case by case basis to maintain a free society. we are strayed far from that path.
today if you want to live as free as a founding father you must live like a founding father. Every piece of technology requires you subject yourself to one tyranny or another. The social contract now is that governments want the information to maintain power, corporations want the information to monetize it, and you give them the information so that you can use the technology to ease your life or be more productive... but the noose tightens every so slowly, eventually it will bite and you will find that the tech you bought, owns you. The services you pay for serve your master, not you.
Posted by: vikings fan at June 06, 2013 05:49 PM (2FyfJ)
Posted by: Lauren at June 06, 2013 05:49 PM (wsGWu)
----------------------------
I've been trying to parse that ever since I read it. I mean..., is that different than saying "...outrageously obscene..."? And which is appropriate? Is there a chakra involved? Is spending any time at all pondering something Al Gore has said pointless?
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 05:49 PM (aDwsi)
"IÂ’m appalled," [Rand] Paul told Yahoo at the start of a wide-ranging exclusive interview in a conference room down the hall from his office.
"I’m not opposed to them going to a judge and getting an order for an individual who you have probable cause to believe that they’ve been involved with a crime," he said. "It’s not that I don’t want to go after terrorists – or rapists or murderers or any kind of terrible criminal. It’s that I want to go after them, not the rest of the law-abiding citizens that are out there."
Posted by: ChristyBlinky, radicalized Redneck Queen at June 06, 2013 05:49 PM (baL2B)
The Chesterton quote doesn't apply here. Chesterton's "fence" was something of antiquity, something that had been around so long that nobody could remember when it first appeared. Something like, oh, traditional marriage, perhaps. Or even that less ancient edifice, the U.S. Constitution. The "reformer" waltzes up to it and proposes clearing it away because there's no one around who can say "I remember why we built this thing; it was a real mess before, and we needed this because..." - it's been there that long. Chesterton is saying you may not be able to find the original work order that called for building the ancient edifice, but you can trust human beings to have always had some reason for going to the trouble of putting it there.
How does that apply here? PRISM isn't an ancient tradition, with roots lost in the mists of time. You don't have to speculate why it's there - just ask the people who built it. It doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. In fact, the case is nearly the opposite: it's the tradition of government not prying into citizens' private communications that's the crusty old edifice today's hotshots can't see the use of. They're the insouciant "reformers" calling for a bulldozer because they can't see what use that old traditional fence in their path is anymore, when there are such urgent, pressing matters they could deal with much easier if they could just drive a road straight through it.
Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at June 06, 2013 05:50 PM (FkH4y)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 09:31 PM (LCRYB)
Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/s][/u] at June 06, 2013 05:50 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: The Political Golem at June 06, 2013 05:50 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: Jim McDermott at June 06, 2013 05:50 PM (SzAZ7)
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
I, all of us, are not criminals until proven guilty. We and our possessions are not subject to complete searches and review of all of our actions "just because" or "terrorism". If the Feds want to do this type of crap, they HAVE TO TELL US, UP FRONT, BEFORE THEY DO IT. They didn't - this was nice and hidden for years using "secret" court orders. Now it comes out (thanks to British media), and it's "ask forgiveness, not permission".
F*ck that - and you want to give them the benefit of the doubt?! The Feds have the burden of showing this is constitutional and a good idea and that they can be trusted with it BEFORE THEY DO IT. It is none of those things. Even if it's a "good idea" it is still unconstitutional. And they blew any "good will" by concealing it. If it hadn't leaked, YOU STILL WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.
Hell, give them your bank card pin numbers and accounts so they can check to see if you're laundering cash for Old' Sammie. If you're not, what do you have to fear, Comrade?
What they've admitted to, what's leaked, is enough to shut it down unless and until there is a complete and total review of it. Public. Pretend it's fracking and put a moratorium on it. Then actually focus on our actual enemies i.e. evil "profiling" and less on 5 year-olds and their Facebook pages.
Now add the AG and IRS messes as well as recent DNA SCOTUS decision and you can see how bad this got and how quickly it happened. How many times do you need to be cheated on before it dawns on ya that they can't be trusted with this level of power? Christ!
Posted by: Saltydonnie at June 06, 2013 05:50 PM (4a4Vt)
Posted by: Jones in CO at June 06, 2013 05:50 PM (8sCoq)
Posted by: Yip at June 06, 2013 05:51 PM (/jHWN)
I would be thinking exactly like ace is in this post if the administration wasn't taking advice from the Muslim Brotherhood and pushing for sharia accommodation in every aspect of our lives. Beating terror by converting is not my Plan A. Especially since that just means picking Shia or Sunni and going to Syria to die.
Many of you don't get this living in areas without large Muslim populations. It starts with Muslims being the only people who need not wear "bathing attire" and gets worse from there. Polygamy. Local imam trains jihadis, right by the giant police station. Nearly complete news blackout on that story.
As I said, surrender negotiations are in progress.
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 05:51 PM (sOtz/)
*And I'll bet you one million Americans dollars that it's been required of most if not all other carriers as well.
Posted by: Palandine[/i] at June 06, 2013 05:51 PM (aBOpX)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 06, 2013 08:50 PM (2yngH)
Mmmmm, baloney!!!!!
Posted by: Homer Simpson at June 06, 2013 05:51 PM (Oi60j)
Posted by: Jay at June 06, 2013 05:52 PM (iJBvZ)
Posted by: Jim in Virginia at June 06, 2013 05:52 PM (8eb9R)
GOD DAMN IT HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND
To quote Homer Simpson, "Just because We don't CARE doesn't mean we don't UNDERSTAND."
Posted by: The Government at June 06, 2013 05:52 PM (bKA83)
ARRL, w/low bandwidth steganographic encryption embedded in pictures of flowers for gardening discussions. Virtually uncrackable.
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 05:53 PM (3WUPt)
Remember Echalon? We discussed this maybe 6 or 7 years ago here.
Posted by: spongeworthy--pooch whisperer at June 06, 2013 08:39 PM (r5w1L)
6 or 7 years ago was Able Danger. Echalon was Clinton Administration.
Posted by: this is Skynet at June 06, 2013 05:53 PM (ga+7c)
"I can't imagine a single member of our military turning on our citizenry. Some of the officers, perhaps, but the enlisteds, NCOs, no fucking way."
The Bonus Army thought that too if memory serves me.
Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at June 06, 2013 05:53 PM (zEeUf)
Posted by: The Government at June 06, 2013 05:53 PM (Vk2pI)
I don't trust it either (I hope that's obvious) but
then why are we permitting Obama to have a standing army? I think it's
obvious we shouldn't disband the armed forces simply because Obama may
order them to attack us.
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 09:31 PM (LCRYB)
Did you already forget Obama wants a force accountable to him personally and not bound by the UCMJ that's just as powerful as the United States Army.
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 05:53 PM (o44nj)
Posted by: rickl at June 06, 2013 05:53 PM (sdi6R)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:54 PM (r+7wo)
I think the Washington Post got trolled on this one. Not that the
government (any government) wouldn't want to do this, or wouldn't abuse
it if they had it; just that the specific details offered smell of
baloney.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 06, 2013 08:50 PM (2yngH)
----------------------------
When you develop italics and ampersand technology, I'd be happy to listen to your musings on the technical capabilities of advanced nations.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 06, 2013 05:54 PM (JDIKC)
-----------------
Illegal orders are NOT to be carried out.
I think we need to remember that the oath specifies defense against domestic enemies.
Posted by: Mike Hammer at June 06, 2013 05:54 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 05:55 PM (SzAZ7)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:55 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: chique d'afrique, PhD, MBA (OK, I made that last one up) at June 06, 2013 05:55 PM (r+7wo)
...its actually a documentary.
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 05:55 PM (3WUPt)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 06, 2013 08:50 PM (2yngH)
----------------------------
When you develop italics and ampersand technology, I'd be happy to listen to your musings on the technical capabilities of advanced nations.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 06, 2013 09:54 PM (JDIKC)
LMAO!!
Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/s][/u] at June 06, 2013 05:56 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: troyriser at June 06, 2013 05:56 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: toby928© with screwed up eyes and screwed down hairdo Like some cat from japan at June 06, 2013 05:57 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: Andy Sullivan at June 06, 2013 05:57 PM (bKA83)
We are obama's army.
Posted by: DHS at June 06, 2013 09:55 PM (g5YAm)
Bullshit. We are. Now go and play your SD role.
Posted by: IRS at June 06, 2013 05:57 PM (o44nj)
Watching me
Ah
Watching me
Ah
First thing when I wake up
and right before I close my eyes at night
I think,
sense,
Feel man like
I'm under some kind of microscope
satellites over my head
transmitters in my dollars
hawking, watching, scoping, jocking
scrutinizing me
checking to see what im doing
where i be
who i see
how and where and with whom I make my money
What is this??
Excuse me miss
May i have your phone number and your social security?
Who me?
When all i came to do is buy my double or triple A batteries
Please
I DECLINE!!!
Watching me
Ah
Watching me
Ah
Look here at this watch of mine
Gotta open it up
Don't know who's been in it
Tracking where I go
Finding out all my business
Sucurity
Video cameras locked on me
In every dressing room
On every floor
In every store
Damn can i get that to my democracy
and
Equality and privacy
You busy watching me, watching me
That your blind baby
You neglect to see
The drugs coming into my community
Weapons coming into my community
Dirty cops in my community
And you keep saying that im free
Busy watching me
ah
Watching Me
AH
Watching Me
I ain't got no bars to this cage
If I'm gonna stay here
I'm gonna build me a lead house
Keep them satellites out
Direct TV
Am I watchin' it or is it watchin' me?
Man I don't really know
but I feel like
I feel like I'm being scoped y'all
Watch y'all
Somethin' ain't right
And you keep sayin' that I'm free
AH
And you keep sayin' that I'm free
AH
Posted by: Albie Damned at June 06, 2013 05:58 PM (Yhu4q)
Posted by: Captain Edward Smith at June 06, 2013 05:58 PM (HiKk0)
Posted by: Witchfinder at June 06, 2013 05:58 PM (uuD2w)
Posted by: Jim McDermott at June 06, 2013 09:50 PM (SzAZ7)
God what an asshole. He presides as liege-lord over the district to the north of mine. His primary election consists of usually 11 democrats, communists, radical earth and environuts and maybe one or two independents. The last few elections were him running against another democrat because alternative parties didn't get enough votes for the top two primary we have here. He usually gets around 75% of the total votes in his district (Crazytown aka Seattle, WA).
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 05:58 PM (M1gmo)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 05:58 PM (ujux6)
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 06, 2013 08:50 PM (2yngH)
----------------------------
When you develop italics and ampersand technology, I'd be happy to listen to your musings on the technical capabilities of advanced nations.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at June 06, 2013 09:54 PM (JDIKC)
Lol!
Posted by: PRISM at June 06, 2013 05:58 PM (hpYnL)
Posted by: BlackOrchid at June 06, 2013 05:59 PM (2up3Q)
Food for thought.
Posted by: Gaff at June 06, 2013 05:59 PM (iV8i3)
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 09:59 PM (lVPtV)
If not, it should be. Damned annoying.
Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/s][/u] at June 06, 2013 06:00 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at June 06, 2013 06:00 PM (fnPRp)
Posted by: rockmom at June 06, 2013 06:00 PM (Ea7Up)
Posted by: ghost707 at June 06, 2013 06:00 PM (mdD7T)
Posted by: someguy at June 06, 2013 06:00 PM (8XRrT)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 06:01 PM (ujux6)
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 10:00 PM (lVPtV)
The buyers have the contract....we should know in the next day or so if they've signed it.
*all body parts crossed*
Posted by: Tami [/i][/b][/s][/u] at June 06, 2013 06:02 PM (X6akg)
Posted by: Lurk Ness Monster at June 06, 2013 06:02 PM (I0DcF)
Posted by: someguy at June 06, 2013 06:02 PM (8XRrT)
"Wow! This is the first I've ever seen of these e-mails (wink wink)"
Posted by: Leopold "Butters" Stotch at June 06, 2013 06:02 PM (e8kgV)
Posted by: Homer Simpson at June 06, 2013 06:02 PM (Oi60j)
Posted by: Serious Cat at June 06, 2013 06:03 PM (UOjzE)
With the latest from the WSJ about the NSA logging credit card transactions, I am certain they are scooping up *everything*. Processing all that data is the problem, which is the purpose of their new "Death Star" out in Utah, the one that uses as much power as Salt Lake City, and half of that power is just running the cooling systems to keep the main system from melting.
This is no longer tin-foil hat stuff. We're living in a Panopticon Surveillence State, we just didn't know it.
Fuck this shit.
Posted by: publius(NotBreitbartPublius) at June 06, 2013 06:03 PM (Pqgwi)
Food for thought.
Posted by: Gaff at June 06, 2013 09:59 PM (iV8i3)
Most of the software made during that time cannot run on modern computers. I tried getting Power Politics (another guy was trying to get it to run in one of the ONT's the other day) to run in dosbox in Windows and Wine and dosbox in Linux, no dice. Its crazy how much we have advanced in tech since then to imagine what the government can do now...
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 06:03 PM (M1gmo)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 06, 2013 06:03 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: drunk in CT at June 06, 2013 06:03 PM (u9Uiu)
The buyers have the contract....we should know in the next day or so if they've signed it.
*all body parts crossed*
Posted by: Tami at June 06, 2013 10:02 PM (X6akg
I'll cross some body parts myself. *damn, boobs not big enough*
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 06:04 PM (lVPtV)
Posted by: Y-not at June 06, 2013 06:04 PM (5H6zj)
Posted by: Lauren at June 06, 2013 06:04 PM (wsGWu)
You got any friends here on this site?
I didn't think so. Come back when you've earned one-thousandth of the respect Ace has.
Jerk.
Posted by: BurtTC at June 06, 2013 06:04 PM (BeSEI)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 06:05 PM (SzAZ7)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 06, 2013 06:05 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: troyriser at June 06, 2013 06:05 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 10:05 PM (SzAZ7)
Don't you just LOVE all mail balloting?!
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 06:06 PM (M1gmo)
I hope Savannah really does dodge a lot of this shit, but the WC wants moar devastation.
They're like MSNBC's weather wolves.
Posted by: Dr. Jane D'oh at June 06, 2013 06:06 PM (lVPtV)
I'd call it buying a bit of insurance against an IRS audit.
Posted by: @PurpAv[/i][/b][/u][/s] at June 06, 2013 06:07 PM (3WUPt)
Posted by: John Q. Public at June 06, 2013 06:08 PM (/Coax)
Posted by: Lauren at June 06, 2013 06:10 PM (wsGWu)
-----------------
I could have told you that.
Posted by: Maj. Nidal Hasan at June 06, 2013 06:10 PM (aDwsi)
Posted by: Captain Whitebread, Low Level Superhero at June 06, 2013 06:10 PM (5J54Q)
Posted by: ghost707 at June 06, 2013 06:10 PM (mdD7T)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 06:10 PM (SzAZ7)
Is it wrong to hope Jay Inslee runs over Patty Murray on the way to Jim McDermott's funeral?
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 10:10 PM (SzAZ7)
Yes, because you didn't include Maria Cantwell in that.
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 06:12 PM (M1gmo)
Posted by: John Q. Public at June 06, 2013 06:12 PM (/Coax)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 06:13 PM (SzAZ7)
Posted by: Vendette (formerly I lurk, therefore I am) at June 06, 2013 06:13 PM (08XhI)
Posted by: Name Redacted at June 06, 2013 06:14 PM (wp484)
Is it wrong to hope Jay Inslee runs over Patty Murray on the way to Jim McDermott's funeral?
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 10:10 PM (SzAZ7)
Yes, because you didn't include Maria Cantwell in that.
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 10:12 PM (M1gmo)
That's one ugly three-way.
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 06:15 PM (o44nj)
The problem is electoral politics and public policy. Jugears and others don't want to appear to be "bigots" so they won't tell the truth about anything to do with present day terrorism. Prism and all their other data mining BS is a poor substitute for pursuing leads or, I dunno, putting people like Hasan in jail before he kills or saying no to asylum seekers from Chechnya!
Jugears doesn't want to lose the Muslim vote and leftist money, so he calls us racists--and then gathers evidence on everybody to chase down terrorism. But I think he or some future liberal will chase down political enemies too. It's inevitable.
It's a chickenshit way to gather intelligence, and it will be misused. It has been misused, I would guess. And the people at Fort Hood and Boston have been sacrificed at the political altar.
Posted by: PJ at June 06, 2013 06:15 PM (ZWaLo)
503 Ann Coulter and others have it right; they aren't looking for terrorists, they are using the information to harm conservatives in any way they can.
-------------------------------------
No. They are doing it to stamp out any organized resistance to tyranny before it can even get started.
Posted by: John Q. Public at June 06, 2013 10:12 PM (/Coax)
Who said that was either/or?
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 06:16 PM (o44nj)
btw, that Rockwell song that you're all now hearing in your ears, it came out in 1984, of all years.
(i miss the '80's)
Posted by: soothsayer, now with 20% less ruth at June 06, 2013 06:16 PM (LVtr+)
Posted by: Mr. Feverhead at June 06, 2013 06:19 PM (SzAZ7)
Posted by: publius(NotBreitbartPublius) at June 06, 2013 06:19 PM (Pqgwi)
We may be doing okay again. And we did once. But in between, there was a hell of a lull, after Jimmy Carter and the Church committee decided that if spying meant getting information from unsavory people, it just wasn't worth it.
Posted by: Splunge at June 06, 2013 06:20 PM (bKA83)
Posted by: Andy at June 06, 2013 06:21 PM (eiJIn)
Posted by: AmishDude at June 06, 2013 06:21 PM (T0NGe)
Posted by: Lord Humungous at June 06, 2013 06:22 PM (ZdfYy)
No, the Soviets were light years better at it than we were. We didn't beat them because of spying.
Posted by: BurtTC at June 06, 2013 06:22 PM (BeSEI)
#464
Witchfinder
I think Islamic sharia is exactly the same threat as an all-powerful government controlling your life. But "terrorism" is just a means to an end.
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 06:22 PM (sOtz/)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 06, 2013 06:22 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: Brother Cavil, elsewhere at June 06, 2013 06:23 PM (m9V0o)
Just as gun control is not to keep guns away from criminals, but control the populace, PRISM is not to catch terrorists, but to control Americans.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 06, 2013 06:23 PM (g5YAm)
Posted by: toby928© at June 06, 2013 06:24 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: toby928© at June 06, 2013 06:24 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 06:24 PM (7LQas)
Just as gun control is not to keep guns away from criminals, but control the populace, PRISM is not to catch terrorists, but to control Americans.
^^^This one displeases me. Audit him.^^^
Posted by: Lois Lerner at June 06, 2013 06:25 PM (bKA83)
That's one ugly three-way.
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 10:15 PM (o44nj)
Yep, that's what we get to deal with here in Washington. At least some other states get nominally conservative views articulated, we get THESE clowns. Don't forget f-kin Dennis Kucinich wanted to run for congress here!
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 06:25 PM (M1gmo)
Posted by: cthulhu at June 06, 2013 06:25 PM (T1005)
Posted by: Homer Simpson at June 06, 2013 06:26 PM (Oi60j)
Posted by: toby928© at June 06, 2013 06:27 PM (QupBk)
Yep. I pulled up a PDF file today, with all sorts of very specific information. If someone got ahold of it, they could essentially wipe me out, financially.
Why is it on my computer? Because it's easier to fill it out, print it, then send it to the company. Last time I accessed it was about 6 months ago, and yet there it is, getting scanned every week by Norton. Along with all my tranny pron.
Posted by: BurtTC at June 06, 2013 06:28 PM (BeSEI)
Posted by: James Magoo Clapper at June 06, 2013 06:28 PM (SzAZ7)
Our constitution is not based on religious law, imagine what you want.
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 06:30 PM (7LQas)
Posted by: James Magoo Clapper at June 06, 2013 10:28 PM (SzAZ7)
Well since Helen Thomas had to retire, they are sort of an upgrade right?
Posted by: NWConservative at June 06, 2013 06:30 PM (M1gmo)
I just want my email address in ace's files along with the rest of yours so I wind up in the right camp.
Posted by: Methos at June 06, 2013 06:30 PM (hO9ad)
Posted by: toby928© at June 06, 2013 06:31 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: toby928© at June 06, 2013 06:32 PM (QupBk)
Thinking like this is merely saying "I surrender, freedom be damned."
I admit this is assuming the program is even 1/10th as bad as it sounds (anything below that is more questionable.)
Freedom is dangerous, that's simply it. We can either accept that danger and do the best we can to mitigate it or we can live in the Panopticon.
The panopticon is not a fun place to be.
Posted by: tsrblke at June 06, 2013 06:32 PM (GaqMa)
Posted by: James Magoo Clapper at June 06, 2013 06:33 PM (SzAZ7)
Yep. I pulled up a PDF file today, with all sorts of very specific information. If someone got ahold of it, they could essentially wipe me out, financially.
Why is it on my computer? Because it's easier to fill it out, print it, then send it to the company. Last time I accessed it was about 6 months ago, and yet there it is, getting scanned every week by Norton. Along with all my tranny pron.
Posted by: BurtTC at June 06, 2013 10:28 PM (BeSEI)
Tranny porn? Automatic or stick shift?
Posted by: Homer Simpson at June 06, 2013 06:35 PM (Oi60j)
Flatbush made a comment about homemade bioweapons, etc. Some pretty serious homemade weapons are already possible. So, why doesn't it happen? This is the role of societal fabric, if you will, and why as a civilization modernizes it always ensures its demise. In favoring the state and its power to force progress over the family and its organically Conservative urges, it undermines the foundational blocks of society, thus weakening its fabric, or to put it in simple terms, weakening local trust in general in favor of remote trust (if you will.) The process of favoring central solutions disempowers the local by its nature and isolates individuals. We all know this.
In a very family-centric world, violence is more 'common' in that you're more likely to experience violence in your life. This is because conflict, instead of being pushed off to a higher authority, is regularly resolved at a local level. But the upshot is this; the violence is far less severe than the violence under high levels of centralization. The trick is, however, that under centralization, most people will experience far less violence. Those that do experience violence (take our war vets) will experience it in a far greater fashion. In this world, all conflicts are perceived larger, threats are perceived larger, and stakes are perceived larger.
In such a world, even an ordinary wretch can fathom a greater cause than living well or offing those upstarts across the valley. In the decentralized world, there are few grand visions and thus weapons of mass destruction make no sense. By accepting centralizing solutions such as this, we are accepting progress towards a particular end (as all progress must be
The simple logical end of our worldview and its attendant beliefs, science and moral feeling. In this simple acceding to the passage of history (which people must do if they do not know history) from the modern into the post-modern (read: Imperial) future, we accede both the creation of greater apparatuses of surveillance (with their attendant loopholes) against a populace that is further and further denatured, to the point at which even an ordinary person could see merit in using a chemical weapon. Islam accelerates this process on an individual by intense alienation, but a state in which we cannot trust, do not have cultural capital, do not have a natural 'like sticks to like' we can have no liberty other than the right to the favored recreational drug, favored guilty pleasure, and procrastination.
If that is one's idea of Liberty, then by all means support PRISM. But I will not pretend that opposing PRISM also has some other attendant ideas that are not neutral in character.
Posted by: RiverC at June 06, 2013 06:35 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: toby928© at June 06, 2013 06:36 PM (QupBk)
Posted by: AmishDude at June 06, 2013 06:36 PM (T0NGe)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 06:37 PM (7LQas)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 06:37 PM (ujux6)
Get me Pinto Pelosi on the phone.
Posted by: James Magoo Clapper at June 06, 2013 10:33 PM (SzAZ7)
Do that and I'll break out the aftersmell reference again.
Posted by: steveegg at June 06, 2013 06:38 PM (o44nj)
Posted by: Name Redacted at June 06, 2013 06:38 PM (wp484)
check out the MIT Technology Review and Atlantic articles on it as well. Yikes. The O team was albe to match ad dolars to cable set top boxes.
Let's give them another 4 years.
Posted by: rich@gmu at June 06, 2013 06:41 PM (ga+7c)
Posted by: rich@gmu at June 06, 2013 06:42 PM (ga+7c)
WTF is going on around here? There are several comments above about the honorless people in charge of this leviathan being the sole source of concern, not the leviathan itself. I shouldn't need to point out the hypocrisy of thinking "our guys" are of better moral character, and could control the beast better.
Posted by: OneEyedJack at June 06, 2013 06:43 PM (ORvjs)
Posted by: Raycon [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 06:43 PM (ujux6)
A far more in-depth look at this issue than what I've seen put forth here thus far.
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at June 06, 2013 06:44 PM (FvyJS)
In the end, there are certain fields within programming which use C++ and have their own toolsets. To make C++ useful you also need to be familiar with one of those toolsets.
Posted by: RiverC at June 06, 2013 06:44 PM (KTytI)
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at June 06, 2013 06:45 PM (FvyJS)
Posted by: Candy Crowley at June 06, 2013 06:46 PM (SzAZ7)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 06:47 PM (7LQas)
How many confidential attorney-client conferences have been secretly recorded by the government in federal criminal cases that have ultimately led to a conviction? This is likely to be explosive in terms of its potential effect on federal convictions. Meanwhile, could somebody please tell me how ANY client is supposed to communicate with his attorney under these circumstances?
Posted by: Methos at June 06, 2013 06:48 PM (hO9ad)
If as I've read , this started in 2007, the Bushies are responsible for it and need to spend time in jail along with any participants in this regime.
After it has been disbanded and melted for scrap, of course.
Posted by: Methos at June 06, 2013 06:53 PM (hO9ad)
Back in 2009, Napolitano warned Americans that prolife groups, Iraq War veterans and people defending gun rights might be terrorists
remember? You think they did not use this power to spy on all tea party groups, vets groups, gun rights groups? Of course they did
Posted by: thunderb at June 06, 2013 06:53 PM (nH8jP)
Posted by: weft cut-loop [/i] [/b] at June 06, 2013 06:53 PM (ujux6)
Imagine if the federal government could record video inside our homes, but never looked at that footage, leaving it to robots to analyze, until obvious red flags popped up. Then they got a warrant (for evidence already in their possession). The only difference is that the government would have to trespass (the dispositive issue in the GPS car tracking case not too long ago where the court held a warrant was required), whereas digital records are in the possession of 3rd parties willing to give them.
Should our privacy depend ONLY on whether there is technical trespass? Even Scalia, who wrote the GPS opinion didn't say that. Nor does the Constitution.
Posted by: Crispian at June 06, 2013 06:55 PM (+qU9V)
Irony
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 06:56 PM (7LQas)
(Jesus, the MSM is starting to get in... I typed "overreaching" instead of overreacting, ha!)
Because it looks to me like the idea of America died tonight. At least, we found out it's dead.
I have absolutely no faith whatsoever that this will be stopped or that those responsible will face the punishment they deserve. For years now, outrages have piled up without redress, and there is no reason to think that this outrage of outrages will be any different, unless something changes, and ITYKWIM by that.
Posted by: WolfinNC at June 06, 2013 06:57 PM (HVOxM)
Posted by: The Political Hat at June 06, 2013 07:00 PM (Vk2pI)
Posted by: taylork at June 06, 2013 07:01 PM (ppNDn)
Ace has indicated on other occasions that the rational response to the disclosure tonight would result in banning and referring of ISP address to the FBI (which at this point seems kind of redundant).
So we make dick jokes instead.
Posted by: Methos at June 06, 2013 07:01 PM (hO9ad)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 07:06 PM (7LQas)
understand what it was like for the average German in 1933, yet I see a
lot of people making jokes, talking about hockey, etc. Are you guys just
all resigned to what seems to be our collective fate? Or am I
overreacting?
Ace has indicated on other occasions that the rational response to the disclosure tonight would result in banning and referring of ISP address to the FBI (which at this point seems kind of redundant).
So we make dick jokes instead.
Posted by: Methos at June 06, 2013 11:01 PM (hO9ad)
Internet Fun Fact: AoSHQ is the net's largest repository of dick jokes. It's not even close.
Posted by: PRISM at June 06, 2013 07:08 PM (hpYnL)
Posted by: taylork at June 06, 2013 07:09 PM (ppNDn)
Posted by: LaQuisha Largess at June 06, 2013 07:13 PM (3Z1wn)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 07:14 PM (7LQas)
Posted by: K-less, founder of the Clinging-On Empire at June 06, 2013 07:14 PM (gllxq)
This has nothing to do with collecting intelligence about terrorism and everything to do with collecting political data. Mark my words, if this is investigated this was part of the "ground game" of the campaign.
Obama and his peeps could careless about terrorism.
Posted by: petunia at June 06, 2013 07:15 PM (DAcBA)
Posted by: taylork at June 06, 2013 07:21 PM (ppNDn)
Posted by: cthulhu at June 06, 2013 07:25 PM (T1005)
Posted by: tsj017 at June 06, 2013 07:32 PM (tIcJF)
Posted by: Fk at June 06, 2013 07:38 PM (7LQas)
Posted by: Torqued at June 06, 2013 07:39 PM (AKS75)
Ace,
I was talking about a gate, not a secret state police that spies on all its citizens. It's OK to get rid of that. Don't make baby Jesus cry!
Posted by: G K Chesterton at June 06, 2013 07:45 PM (BstuE)
Posted by: 2nd Amendment Mother at June 06, 2013 07:50 PM (L4CWX)
Posted by: caustic at June 06, 2013 07:53 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: Andrew at June 06, 2013 07:58 PM (HS3dy)
Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at June 06, 2013 08:00 PM (LRFds)
http://tinyurl.com/mmsg88o
Irony of ironies, he loses the governorship but goes to the senate. Christie would be fit to be tied.
Posted by: caustic at June 06, 2013 08:15 PM (/b8+5)
Posted by: angel with a sword at June 06, 2013 08:17 PM (gs/cH)
Posted by: troyriser at June 06, 2013 08:39 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: troyriser at June 06, 2013 08:42 PM (ptcFO)
Posted by: ace at June 06, 2013 08:40 PM (LCRYB)"
Maybe Uncle Sam ought to get better at the whole Human Intelligence thing rather than simply abuse whatever technology they might find at their disposal.
Is it possible that this particular fence was simply built on my property by an asshole neighbor who's just engaging in a little game of "let's see how much I can get away with?"
Posted by: holygoat at June 06, 2013 08:48 PM (IGIFh)
Ace,
You are not wrong. It is always good to slow down to reflect. But you are not right either. You're making the same mistake Andrew McCarthy (prosecutor of the blind sheikh) has. This power, when it exists and we are no longer secure in our persons and papers, has the potential for ULTIMATE EVIL. Which is why it has never been allowed beforehand.
This is very bad. Stopping 10 terrorist attacks does not justify living in an atmosphere of constant surveillance and no privacy. FSB WARNED US about the chechens and we still didn't pick it up.
Until we can respect the "old school" leads, stay the fuck out of my phone.
Posted by: prescient11 at June 06, 2013 08:52 PM (UNnLc)
You don't hack down the entire garden to get to one weed. Government officials, and especially this administration, are unable to think outside the box, when it comes to problem solving.. Immigration, gun control laws and now this, are prime examples of their total and complete lack of determining and implementing specific solutions for specific problems.
If, under no circumstances were they allowed to shred the rights of others, in finding a solution to a problem, they would forced to find a more focused solution, without involving everyone.
They want the easy way out. They want to bomb an entire city to kill one single person. They want to remove the entire leg to remove one mole.
They might be solving one problem, but are causing many others in the process.
You could realistically apply your "parable" theory to every other thing Obama has done also. Take the IRS. Maybe they know something about conservative groups trying to avoid taxes, and that is why they those groups were scrutinized so much. Maybe they know something about Benghazi, that we don't. Was Christopher Stephens a highly placed Al-Queda member, spying on the US, and that's why we allowed him to be killed? No, no way. I think this is more of an Occam's Razor type deal. Everyone is being spied on because this administration wants incriminating evidence on everyone, in case they ever need it. Simplest explanation.
And as for Chesterton's Parable, I think the fence was placed there by Janet Napalitano and the DHS to be used as part of an internment camp for political dissenters. The modern reformer is no stooge, when it comes to the underhandedness of Obama.
Posted by: Chunkdog at June 06, 2013 08:56 PM (KGE49)
Posted by: Michelle Chewbama at June 06, 2013 09:08 PM (EX+sq)
The back and forth on this one is mind boggling. How there can be a forth is questionable, at best. But carry on, those that can believe a single gosh-damned word out of Barry and his Merry caddie-loving men.
Posted by: sybilll at June 06, 2013 09:11 PM (TCa27)
In this culture? I estimate the response rate would be far less than 1%, and most people would return in a month or so. The net effect would be nil.
Posted by: . at June 06, 2013 09:20 PM (CnAXM)
Posted by: A big old fat guy at June 06, 2013 09:22 PM (Je/il)
Posted by: sexypig at June 06, 2013 09:36 PM (dZQh7)
Key Point= 4th amendment violation. Get a warrant.
Posted by: NWConservative
No, that's the point. They've got that angle covered in reams of paper. Did you hear - they're not getting the actual content - just the meta-data. Well what the meta-data is your 1st Amendment right to Free Association - it's used for network analysis. Who is associating with whom, how often, identifying clusters.
Posted by: Jean at June 06, 2013 09:47 PM (CMlD4)
Posted by: OffendedMan at June 06, 2013 09:57 PM (LvC7c)
Posted by: Snarky the Bear at June 06, 2013 10:28 PM (/b8+5)
FIFY
Posted by: wooga at June 06, 2013 10:39 PM (jgnqm)
Posted by: Beagle at June 06, 2013 11:06 PM (sOtz/)
Posted by: zombie at June 06, 2013 11:13 PM (+cx5n)
Posted by: and irresolute at June 07, 2013 12:11 AM (DBH1h)
Posted by: m at June 07, 2013 12:16 AM (pr7FQ)
Posted by: TanarUr at June 07, 2013 12:37 AM (TYmew)
Posted by: m at June 07, 2013 12:43 AM (pr7FQ)
Posted by: Socalcon at June 07, 2013 03:55 AM (K6CHr)
Posted by: Socalcon at June 07, 2013 04:01 AM (K6CHr)
Posted by: deadrody at June 07, 2013 04:40 AM (osIoP)
Posted by: deadrody at June 07, 2013 04:45 AM (osIoP)
I think most of the commenters here have missed one important thing about this controversy: They have pet judges who will pretty much sign any warrant for anything as long as the justice department spins a great story, like it did in the Rosen case.
Posted by: TimothyJ at June 07, 2013 05:25 AM (0LB6+)
Imagine if all the firms listed in the NSA slides suddenly lost their non-US userbase? Would Apple without the iPod/Pad/Phone even be relevant if it was found that they were the tools of the NSA.
Posted by: JohnMc at June 07, 2013 06:15 AM (RHBWt)
Ace, what the heck? This is the worst post of yours I've ever seen. I totally disagree with you. Losing respect. Sorry to say it.
Posted by: Huh at June 07, 2013 06:38 AM (wrlxO)
Posted by: dr. shatterhand at June 07, 2013 06:52 AM (n/ogz)
Posted by: jpintx at June 07, 2013 07:18 AM (eY2fu)
Posted by: GalosGann at June 07, 2013 07:38 AM (vW1n3)
Why was it put there?
Posted by: j2spank at June 07, 2013 07:51 AM (Wqwpk)
Posted by: GalosGann at June 07, 2013 08:18 AM (vW1n3)
Posted by: Rich Fader at June 07, 2013 02:53 PM (dt8Su)
Posted by: Rich Fader at June 07, 2013 02:54 PM (dt8Su)
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*mic drop*
Posted by: Gaff at June 06, 2013 04:35 PM (iV8i3)