Ace of Spades HQ

July 07, 2013

Saipan July 7 1944
— Dave in Texas

The U.S. 2nd Marine Division, 4th Marine Division, and 27th US Army Infantry Division, commanded by Lieutenant General Holland Smith, defeated the 43rd Division of the Imperial Japanese Army, commanded by Lieutenant General Yoshitsugu Saito.

We were two days away from this win on the 7th of July, 69 years ago.

Fighting became especially brutal and prolonged around Mount Tapotchau, Saipan's highest peak, and Marines gave battle sites in the area names such as "Death Valley" and "Purple Heart Ridge." When the U.S. finally trapped the Japanese in the northern part of the island, Japanese soldiers launched a massive but futile banzai charge. On July 9, the U.S. flag was raised in victory over Saipan.

Marines_take_cover_behind_medium_tank (440x330).jpg

From an airfield on this small island, we launched the two B29s that ended WWII.

In late summer 1944 the Imperial Japanese Navy was pushed to the edge. Lacking supply, materiel and trained airmen, they lashed out desperately with suicide missions. Poorly trained and poorly able pilots guiding their aircraft as human bombs into superior forces.

USS_Bunker_Hill_hit_by_two_Kamikazes (440x304).jpg

It was effective and horrific. Seems like something we should know. And learn from.

CORRECTION: commenter faggot Buzzsaw90 reminds me that the bombs, Little Boy and Fat Man were launched from Tinian.

Saipan was a base for lots of B-29 bombardments, but not those.

I suspect Buzz has some Batman underoos, but I would rather not go there.

Look, if they make you feel brave.. run with it..

And all my stupid aside thanks.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at 12:13 PM | Comments (137)
Post contains 253 words, total size 2 kb.

1 People carrying payloads of explosives like human bombs. Where have I heard that before?

Posted by: Barney at July 07, 2013 12:15 PM (rCS6C)

2 go to nationalww2museum.org to find out more-and visit when you are in NOLA. Morons and Moronettes can stagger there from Bourbon Street.

Posted by: Jeff at July 07, 2013 12:16 PM (MOSsR)

3 "King Kong"

Good name for a tank.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 07, 2013 12:18 PM (4Mv1T)

4 Sometimes when I see various pictures of our fighting men in WWII, I wonder how many of them lived through it. Young faces. Never to be pictured again.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 12:22 PM (xrA3k)

5 Sometimes when I see various pictures of our fighting men in WWII, I wonder how many of them lived through it. Young faces. Never to be pictured again.
------------------------------------

Didn't someone here post a statistic that during the Civil War that 1-3 percent of war dead were found with no wounds? Sheer stress and terror killed them. Awful.

Posted by: Tobacco Road at July 07, 2013 12:24 PM (4Mv1T)

6 By the time the Imperial Navy began launching kamikaze raids, they knew the war was already lost. We knew that they knew, and they knew that we knew that they knew. What a waste.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at July 07, 2013 12:24 PM (PwV7G)

7 Sometimes when I see various pictures of our fighting men in WWII, I wonder how many of them lived through it. Young faces. Never to be pictured again.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 04:22 PM (xrA3k)

Yup. And then I will see the same young faces in my dental chair tomorrow here at Parris Island. And I treat each one of them like the the heroes they are and like one of my own. Each and every one of yhem

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 12:27 PM (gXLJL)

8 Yup. And then I will see the same young faces in my dental chair tomorrow here at Parris Island. And I treat each one of them like the the heroes they are and like one of my own. Each and every one of yhem Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 04:27 PM (gXLJL) As the SO of a newly-minted Commander, I salute you, sir.

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 12:29 PM (bgZok)

9 As the SO of a newly-minted Commander, I salute you, sir.

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 04:29 PM (bgZok)

I'm an 0-5 Select myself

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 12:32 PM (gXLJL)

10 I don't care what anyone says. Tactical suicide works. When my dad was in the Philipines, the news of the kamakazies were filtering through the ranks, and many, including my dad, feared getting on a large ship. He also knew, since his unit were slated for the invasion of Japan, that they'd face tactical suicide units on the Japanese mainland also. He said the thought of that scared the shit out of him. And he wasn't the only one. Everyone feared it more than a straight shootout with enemy soldiers.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 12:33 PM (xrA3k)

11 I'm an 0-5 Select myself Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 04:32 PM (gXLJL) Congrats!

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 12:33 PM (bgZok)

12 Didn't the B-29s come from Tinian?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 07, 2013 12:33 PM (CIc84)

13 Poorly trained and poorly able ~~pilots~~ tsars guiding their ~~aircraft~~bureaucracies as ~~human~~regulatory bombs into superior forces.

Posted by: George S. Patton at July 07, 2013 12:34 PM (Pr6hk)

14 My uncle waas wounded at Saipan. And they're still not married.

Posted by: herr morgenholz at July 07, 2013 12:34 PM (4h2Q4)

15 Didn't the B-29s come from Tinian?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 07, 2013 04:33 PM (CIc84)

They came from all over. The 2 Atomic Bomb ones came from Tinian

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 12:35 PM (gXLJL)

I'm an 0-5 Select myself.

CDR M, Vendette's SO, Nevergiveup - Dang, we're starting to get a Navy O5 cabal going here, Crotchityoldjarhead is gonna blow a gasket.

Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 12:36 PM (LqVNJ)

17 Rabid ideologists are a bitch (insert Hillary joke here)

Posted by: George S. Patton at July 07, 2013 12:37 PM (Pr6hk)

18 yeah I pretty much fucked that up. B-29 raids from Saipan beat em down.. but the bombs were from Tinian.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at July 07, 2013 12:37 PM (pUqSw)

19 Saipan was the first airfield within range of the Japanese mainland that made mass B29 bombing missions practical.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 12:38 PM (xrA3k)

20 Fuck the Japs

Posted by: Harry Truman 1945 at July 07, 2013 12:41 PM (R8hU8)

21 I went to Tinian back in 70 before there was any tourism or hotels, basically just tanga tanga bush. There was a memorial plinth at the pit where they loaded the nukes into the Enola Gay and Bocks Car.

Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 12:42 PM (LqVNJ)

22 Saipan was an important airfield for B-29s towards the end of the war.

Posted by: rickl at July 07, 2013 12:42 PM (sdi6R)

23 I went to Tinian back in 70 before there was any tourism or hotels, basically just tanga tanga bush. There was a memorial plinth at the pit where they loaded the nukes into the Enola Gay and Bocks Car.

Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 04:42 PM (LqVNJ)

I'd like to get to Iwo Jima one of these days. My dad was there

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 12:43 PM (gXLJL)

24 Does Chiang Kai-Shek still live on Saipan?

Posted by: Joe Biden at July 07, 2013 12:44 PM (fOFYL)

25 Fuck the Japs

Posted by: Harry Truman 1945 at July 07, 2013 04:41 PM (R8hU

---------------------------------------

I forget the island where I saw the pic of a sign that welcomed everyone that came there. It read: "Kill Japs. Kill Japs. Kill more Japs".

And now we have "muzzie outreach".

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 12:44 PM (xrA3k)

26 Can you imagine Halsey in today's day and age making comments about Arabic only being spoken in hell?

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at July 07, 2013 12:45 PM (MBqvE)

27 WTF, everybody not pushing Daisey's from that era is saying WTF.

Posted by: Santino at July 07, 2013 12:48 PM (vaaE5)

28 Retired O-5 here, Navy.

You want to know what bullet-proof is? A terminal O-5 who has put in his papers to retire.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 12:48 PM (EV3Uf)

29 From both Saipan and Tinian, it was almost a 3000 mile round trip to the Japanese mainland. Thousands of planes and crews made that trip. According to Wikipedia, the B-29's cruising speed was 220 mph, which made the round trip about 14 hours.

Posted by: rickl at July 07, 2013 12:48 PM (sdi6R)

30 well, here y'all are . . . trying to keep up while doing the household drudgery. The dadster was on a carrier in the Philippines in WWII. My darlin' gramma, his momsie, would never abide anything in her house that was made in Japan. We had to check for labels to avert WWIII. Also, couldn't mention FDR anywhere around her. She was so awesome!!!! Made a hellluva pie, too.

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 12:49 PM (8lmkt)

31 9. Still not a CPO But what the hell, we chiefs may let you buy us a beer or 12

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 12:50 PM (wPCF5)

You want to know what bullet-proof is? A terminal O-5 who has put in his papers to retire.

Ah yes, the old FIJFIIGMO syndrome. I didn't get caught up in that one because as I retired, the billet was cut and went contract. Guess who replaced me.

Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 12:51 PM (LqVNJ)

33 According to Wikipedia, the B-29's cruising speed was 220 mph, which made the round trip about 14 hours.

Posted by: rickl at July 07, 2013 04:48 PM (sdi6R)

-----------------------------------------------

And the B29 was not an easy plane to fly. Very unforgiving. A neighbor of mine who flew them in the war said it was like driving a tractor-trailer rig without power steering.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 12:52 PM (xrA3k)

34 We traded Marines lives to take those islands to save B-29 crews' lives. Part of the awful calculus of war.

NGU, one of my major pleasures in my twilight tour was working with Marines: scroungy, opportunistic, can-do little bastidges. That is said with affection. They get more done with less than anybody else.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 12:52 PM (EV3Uf)

35 32. Ha!! You at a pay raise

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 12:53 PM (wPCF5)

36 Fuck the Japs Posted by: Harry Truman 1945 at July 07, 2013 04:41 PM (R8hU O Rly? Ya Rly! http://trurly.ytmnd.com/

Posted by: The Political Hat, ya rly! at July 07, 2013 12:53 PM (Vk2pI)

37 Saipan was an important airfield for B-29s towards the end of the war.

Posted by: rickl at July 07, 2013 04:42 PM (sdi6R)

My grandfather's AAA unit had been in Calcutta as part of the CBI until spring 1945 when they were redeployed to Saipan, either to defend the airfields (more likely) or as part of the buildup for the planned Operation Downfall (never got a clarification on that). His formation got attacked at least twice by Japanese that had refused to surrender a year after the island was taken. In once instance, the only reason the enemy didn't get into their camp was that the sentries heard the crunches from the Japanese stepping on giant land snails that lived in the sugarcane fields next door.

Somewhere at my parents' house is a micro-cassette of an interview that my then 7-8 year old brother did with my grandfather about what he did during the war. Other than the hijinks-type stories, I think that was the only time he talked about the more serious aspects of the war. I wish I could find that thing because from talking to my cousins, he never told them (or my mom or aunts, for that matter) what he actually did.

Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at July 07, 2013 12:53 PM (aozUR)

38 9. Still not a CPO But what the hell, we chiefs may let you buy us a beer or 12 Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 04:50 PM (wPCF5) You have to wear a Packers jersey first...

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 12:53 PM (bgZok)

39 ITC @ 26 - Remember the fainting and pearl clutching when GEN Mattis said that he enjoyed killing dirtbags?

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 12:54 PM (EV3Uf)

40 But what the hell, we chiefs may let you buy us a beer or 12

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 04:50 PM (wPCF5)

I have a great relation with all my chiefs, senior chiefs, and master chiefs. I listen to everything they say, basically stay out of their way, and they make me look good.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 12:54 PM (gXLJL)

41 So the crash was pilot error, just as suspected.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 12:54 PM (jjvz+)

35 32. Ha!!
You at a pay raise

And the O5 selectee wins the big Kewpie doll!

Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 12:55 PM (LqVNJ)

43 38 I'd wear a dress and fuck me heels before I would place a filthy packers jacket on my body

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 12:55 PM (wPCF5)

44 NGU, one of my major pleasures in my twilight tour was working with Marines: scroungy, opportunistic, can-do little bastidges. That is said with affection. They get more done with less than anybody else.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 04:52 PM (EV3Uf)

Yup. And they take very good care of their Docs. And feed us good also

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 12:56 PM (gXLJL)

45 Navycopjoe - The worst part of being a CDR? Realizing I'm older than my chiefs.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 12:56 PM (EV3Uf)

46 42 ummmm, that's a EMC I drank coffee for living

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 12:57 PM (wPCF5)

47 You have to wear a Packers jersey first...

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 04:53 PM (bgZok)

---------------------------------------------

Geez. Now that's the sign of a real fanatic. An ex-Marine in a Packer's jersey.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 12:57 PM (xrA3k)

Navycopjoe

Do I detect a tinge of animus towards the Sons of Lombardi?

Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 12:58 PM (LqVNJ)

49 So Dave, Brady group has gotten to ace and we don't have gun thread any more?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 12:59 PM (wR+pz)

50 OT but computer question: How the hell do I keep Win 8 from the damn restart for updates? I hate that crap, and I want to delay it as long as possible today.

Posted by: logprof at July 07, 2013 12:59 PM (fOFYL)

51 CNN has video of the Asiana crash. It's a miracle everyone isn't dead.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 12:59 PM (jjvz+)

52 45. It took me 17 years to get my anchors Now kids are getting them at 8 or 9

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 12:59 PM (wPCF5)

53 CNN has video of the Asiana crash. It's a miracle everyone isn't dead.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 04:59 PM (jjvz+)

Yeah I saw it. Drudge has it now also

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 01:00 PM (gXLJL)

54 How the hell do I keep Win 8 from the damn restart for updates? I hate that crap, and I want to delay it as long as possible today.

Posted by: logprof at July 07, 2013 04:59 PM (fOFYL)

Buy a Mac? Seriously though, no idea. It makes me want to set my work computer on fire.

Posted by: Professor Marius von Totenkopf (formerly Hoss Fuentes) at July 07, 2013 01:00 PM (aozUR)

55 Navycopjoe Do I detect a tinge of animus towards the Sons of Lombardi? Posted by: Panhandler at July 07, 2013 04:58 PM (LqVNJ) He's a long-suffering Bears fan.

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 01:00 PM (bgZok)

56 Navycopjoe - Big mistake eliminating TIR to make chief.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 01:00 PM (EV3Uf)

57 So the crash was pilot error, just as suspected.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 04:54 PM (jjvz+)

-----------------------------------------------------

That was excruciatingly obvious from the first glimpse I had of the sea wall and the proceeding debris field.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 01:00 PM (xrA3k)

58 My

Ass

Rides

In

Navy

Equipment

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 01:01 PM (EV3Uf)

59 That was excruciatingly obvious from the first glimpse I had of the sea wall and the proceeding debris field. *** Yep. They were a matter of feet from putting it into the bay.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 01:01 PM (jjvz+)

60 Born and raised on the north side of inner city Chicago So that would be a yes Still doesn't match my complete and insane loathing for the white sux

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 01:02 PM (wPCF5)

61
Muscles
Are
Required
Intelligence
Non-
Essential

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 01:02 PM (EV3Uf)

62 He's a long-suffering Bears fan.

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 05:00 PM (bgZok)

Plus, Cubbies!!! lol!!!

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:03 PM (8lmkt)

63 Navycopjoe, if you're ever in the DC area I'd be happy to buy you a beer (or two, or three, or 12).

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 01:04 PM (bgZok)

64 I hate you all

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 01:04 PM (wPCF5)

65 Yep. They were a matter of feet from putting it into the bay.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 05:01 PM (jjvz+)

Yeah, a fuckin' miracle. Except for the parents of those two little Chinese girls, whose parents just lost their angels.

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:05 PM (8lmkt)

66 64. Except for vendette

Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 01:05 PM (wPCF5)

67 I hate you all

I feel your hate, ncj . . . feels good!!

c'mon, y'all will have such an easy time baggin' on the Pats this year. Red Sox, heh, not so much, suckah!

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:06 PM (8lmkt)

68 66 64. Except for vendette Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 05:05 PM (wPCF5) that is sort of funny

Posted by: Jake in ID-aquavit at July 07, 2013 01:06 PM (s/TCI)

69 Why are Marines called Jar heads?

I know the one answer but want to see if there are funnier ones.

Posted by: McGregor at July 07, 2013 01:07 PM (qo244)

70 "Saipan was the first airfield within range of the Japanese mainland that made mass B29 bombing missions practical."

It was considered necessary to bring strategic bombing to bear on the Japanese homeland, but some naval historians have started to quietly question if that really was necessary in order to force an eventual Japanese surrender.

In retrospect, the absolutely overwhelming thing for the Japanese, as an island nation, was losing their merchant shipping, and the absolutely overwhelming factor in destroying the Japanese merchant fleet was American submarine intercept.

MacArthur's grand strategy in the Pacific was "island hopping", using naval mobility and carrier air screening in order to simply bypass certain strongpoints, and fight for only those islands deemed strategically critical. That is, fight for the islands that could support large land-based bombers.

What if the US had gone that one better in terms of complete island avoidance, canned the idea of strategic bombing entirely, and simply built more subs, more carriers and more naval air wings? And made a steadily tightening oceanic noose around the Japanese home islands using those.

All of the horrific bloodshed of the island battles would have been avoided. No Iwo Jima slaughter. The fanatical garrisons ashore on those islands would have sat and stewed in their superhardened bunkers, not able to take the fight out to sea where the Yankees were.

And the industry and war potential in the home islands would have simply and slowly ground to a halt because of a simple lack of fuel. The only way Japan gets POL (petroleum, oils and lubricants) is via import. Sink all the tankers and they're done. Unable to continue.

It really does look like a case of unstoppable momentum behind a bad idea. So much money and time and engineering effort had been poured into the B-29 that the brass would simply not entertain any alternative suggestions to strategic bombing using the Superfortresses. All else followed from that flawed reasoning.

There really wasn't any reasonable way to beat Nazi Germany without strategic bombing. Japan, not so much so. Different cases altogether.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 07, 2013 01:07 PM (gqT4g)

71 53 CNN has video of the Asiana crash. It's a miracle everyone isn't dead. Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 04:59 PM (jjvz+) Yeah I saw it. Drudge has it now also Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 05:00 PM (gXLJL) It's hard to tell for sure, but it does look like the plane might have cartwheeled before coming to rest upright. I remember some reports yesterday saying that the plane had flipped over, while others said that couldn't have happened because the plane was sitting on the ground right side up.

Posted by: rickl at July 07, 2013 01:08 PM (sdi6R)

72 The folks who said it cartwheeled were pretty close to the mark.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 01:08 PM (jjvz+)

73 McGregor @ 69 - The Marines! The Few! The Proud! The men who screw on their hats!

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 01:08 PM (EV3Uf)

74 So, is ANYTHING not going to be on a video? I making my bedroom cell phone/camera free.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:08 PM (wR+pz)

75 That was excruciatingly obvious from the first glimpse I had of the sea wall and the proceeding debris field.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 05:00 PM (xrA3k)

I thought those fuckers could land themselves

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at July 07, 2013 01:09 PM (R8hU8)

76 64. Except for vendette Posted by: Navycopjoe at July 07, 2013 05:05 PM (wPCF5) All hail the reconciling power of beer!

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 01:09 PM (bgZok)

77 Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 05:08 PM (EV3Uf)

You're on quite a tear today, afm. Did you figure out how to post one-handed or are you totally neglecting your "special purpose?"

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:10 PM (8lmkt)

78 Fishing was not an option, but I just got back from my first impromptu kayak surfing session. The breakers on the way into the water were nasty, had to fight for every inch with eyes and mouth awash with seawater. Character building stuff, but then coming to shore my wife and I hydroplaned on two separate waves each, carrying us at least a hundred feet, then, ta-da we were on shore. Literally felt like I was flying. Only the faintest sense of control. Tomorrow all I'm going to do is head out and head back in over and over again, trying not to kill any swimmers, surfers or waders.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 07, 2013 01:10 PM (qbVkk)

79 The speed was so low that it was close to a stall over the bay.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 01:10 PM (jjvz+)

80 Peaches - Nah, just taking the occasional break to show off for the 'ettes.

How you doin'?

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 01:12 PM (EV3Uf)

81 That plane crash was horrible. My first thought was that it was terrorists. That will probably always be my first thought.

Posted by: ALH at July 07, 2013 01:12 PM (2LTPq)

82 And when he goosed the engines, it brought the nose up, which drove the tail down and there was the seawall and they were fucked. It is absolutely amazing to me that there were only 2 fatalities. If this wasn't pilot error, I will stop drinking.

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:13 PM (8lmkt)

83 They were lazy, use to computer landing, which was broken. They heard pull up pull up on planes computer and tried to and stalled the plane. Pilot fucking error, 100%

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:13 PM (wR+pz)

84 ALH - That's my first reaction to any news about air crashes.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 01:14 PM (EV3Uf)

85 If this wasn't pilot error, I will stop drinking. *** No fear of that. The fucking plane had to shake the stick to tell them they were about to stall.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 01:14 PM (jjvz+)

86 So how much will this cost the airline? I'd say it will bankrupt them. I don't think pilot error is covered under insurance.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:16 PM (wR+pz)

87 I used to do a little flying and even in a little tiny volkswagen with wings type of plane, a stall that close to the ground is scary shit.

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:16 PM (8lmkt)

88 Peaches and Joos, what can't they do?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:17 PM (wR+pz)

89 So how much will this cost the airline? I'd say it will bankrupt them. I don't think pilot error is covered under insurance.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 05:16 PM (wR+pz)

It's a Korean Airline right? So I guess you'd have to sue over there? Good ruck with that

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 01:18 PM (gXLJL)

90 It almost sounds as if they thought they'd glide in for a landing.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 01:19 PM (jjvz+)

91 89 So how much will this cost the airline? I'd say it will bankrupt them. I don't think pilot error is covered under insurance. Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 05:16 PM (wR+pz) It's a Korean Airline right? So I guess you'd have to sue over there? Good ruck with that Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 07, 2013 05:18 PM (gXLJL) --It may be state-supported, no?

Posted by: logprof at July 07, 2013 01:20 PM (fOFYL)

92 In Korea, plane lands you.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 07, 2013 01:20 PM (qbVkk)

93 O/T: The Political Hat: I wanted to thank you for the help on the gaming thread -- too bad it didn't work. I had to go really old school DOS and rename directories to less than eight characters and then mount the target directory (the one with the setup file) as a drive in the DOS emulator. That way I could finally get to the DOS setup file and change it through the emulator. What a pain in the ass. I still want my $5.99 back.

Posted by: Ed Anger at July 07, 2013 01:21 PM (tOkJB)

94 According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know), it's privately owned. However, there may be jurisdictional issues and who the fuck knows what kind of treaty crap comes into play?

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:21 PM (8lmkt)

95 And 2 years before on 7/7/1942.

"An A-29 of the 13th Bombardment Group became the first USAAF aircraft to sink a U-boat, destroying U-701. The group operated the A-29 alongside B-18s and B-25s, before being inactivated on 30 November 1942. "

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_lockheed_A-29_Hudson.html

Posted by: McGregor at July 07, 2013 01:22 PM (qo244)

Posted by: torquewrench at July 07, 2013 05:07 PM (gqT4g)

-----------------------------------------

Shit is so much clearer when looking through the ole retrospectascope, huh? I get a kick out of peoples opinion on how better to execute that war 60+ years later.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 01:22 PM (xrA3k)

97 thanks Billybob and buzzion for earlier ideas on the locked ipod

Had to bail on the thread, sorry.

Posted by: rip van winkin at the 80s at July 07, 2013 01:22 PM (WVMUQ)

98 @89 Venue to sue? Where the tort originates. That would be CA, home of the trial lawyers from hell. Expect them to start filing Monday.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:25 PM (wR+pz)

99 What? The army never fought in the pacific!

Posted by: Marines at July 07, 2013 01:26 PM (Aif/5)

100 Shit is so much clearer when looking through the ole retrospectascope, huh? I get a kick out of peoples opinion on how better to execute that war 60+ years later.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 05:22 PM (xrA3k)

I wouldn't have changed one thing I did in WW2!

Posted by: A. Hitler at July 07, 2013 01:27 PM (gXLJL)

101 http://youtu.be/9Orw3rbj5MI

Raw footage pf Asiana crash

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at July 07, 2013 01:27 PM (LRFds)

102 My uncle was with K Co, 105th Inf Reg, 27th Inf Div and was killed the week before on July 1st somewhere in the vicinity of Death Valley. He had already survived combat on Makin Island, and had he survived that banzai charge of July 7th, he would have gone into action on Okinawa. I had posted the story of Captain Ben L. Salomon, who was a medic with my uncle's regiment. He received the Medal of Honor posthumously, and decades later. His citation is incredible: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty: Captain Ben L. Salomon was serving at Saipan, in the Marianas Islands on July 7, 1944, as the Surgeon for the 2nd Battalion, 105th Infantry Regiment, 27th Infantry Division. The RegimentÂ’s 1st and 2d Battalions were attacked by an overwhelming force estimated between 3,000 and 5,000 Japanese soldiers. It was one of the largest attacks attempted in the Pacific Theater during World War II. Although both units fought furiously, the enemy soon penetrated the BattalionsÂ’ combined perimeter and inflicted overwhelming casualties. In the first minutes of the attack, approximately 30 wounded soldiers walked, crawled, or were carried into Captain SalomonÂ’s aid station, and the small tent soon filled with wounded men. As the perimeter began to be overrun, it became increasingly difficult for Captain Salomon to work on the wounded. He then saw a Japanese soldier bayoneting one of the wounded soldiers lying near the tent. Firing from a squatting position, Captain Salomon quickly killed the enemy soldier. Then, as he turned his attention back to the wounded, two more Japanese soldiers appeared in the front entrance of the tent. As these enemy soldiers were killed, four more crawled under the tent walls. Rushing them, Captain Salomon kicked the knife out of the hand of one, shot another, and bayoneted a third. Captain Salomon butted the fourth enemy soldier in the stomach and a wounded comrade then shot and killed the enemy soldier. Realizing the gravity of the situation, Captain Salomon ordered the wounded to make their way as best they could back to the regimental aid station, while he attempted to hold off the enemy until they were clear. Captain Salomon then grabbed a rifle from one of the wounded and rushed out of the tent. After four men were killed while manning a machine gun, Captain Salomon took control of it. When his body was later found, 98 dead enemy soldiers were piled in front of his position. Captain SalomonÂ’s extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 07, 2013 01:27 PM (+98Gb)

103 The speed was so low that it was close to a stall over the bay.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at July 07, 2013 05:10 PM (jjvz+)

-------------------------------------------------

He was going too slow and low. But, there's an illusion that goes on in the mind when it comes to these very large jets and speed. Especially on approach. They look like they're going very slow, but they're actually going as fast as any smaller aircraft. I noticed this the first time I saw a C5A land.

Posted by: Soona at July 07, 2013 01:29 PM (xrA3k)

104 So is the ONT going to be our gun thread?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:30 PM (wR+pz)

105 14 My uncle waas wounded at Saipan. And they're still not married. Posted by: herr morgenholz at July 07, 2013 04:34 PM (4h2Q4) Hey, Holz. I have been on a quest for many years to try and find anyone who might have known my uncle. It would be nice to fill in the blanks of someone I never met. See post 102.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 07, 2013 01:31 PM (+98Gb)

106 104 So is the ONT going to be our gun thread? Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 05:30 PM (wR+pz) Why not? It often ends up that way anyway.

Posted by: rickl at July 07, 2013 01:32 PM (sdi6R)

107 @103 Most of these planes land at about 120 MPH or less. It's a controlled crash. I use to carry a Garmin 195 avionic GPS on flights to track the flight. First time I saw a 757 landing at 100 MPH I thought I was going to die.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 01:33 PM (wR+pz)

108 In Korea, plane lands you. Posted by: Lincolntf
-------------------

You're supposed to be out paddling around in the sound...

Posted by: Mike Hammer at July 07, 2013 01:34 PM (aDwsi)

109 So is the ONT going to be our gun thread?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at July 07, 2013 05:30 PM (wR+pz)

if our queen has no objections, Billy Bob, we will make it so. i was all fired up to jump on teh gun thread this morning. nothing really to report except that the incredibly beautiful fluffy (not to be confused with the esteemed moron of the same name) is still a virgin.

Posted by: Peaches at July 07, 2013 01:34 PM (8lmkt)

110 *Dons military history geek hat.*

The first B-29 raid on the Home Islands was carried out by the 14th Air Force located in China on June 15th, 1944. But the tenuous supply line from India along with high altitude bombing hampered effectiveness.

So when Saipan and Tinian were captured, the B-29 effort was focused there. Knock off effect of the B-29 program was the development of the P-82 Twin Mustang by NAA as a long range escort fighter. The P-82 was rendered unneeded by the capture of Iwo Jima while allowed P-51Ds to escort the B-29s on their raids of Japan.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 07, 2013 01:34 PM (hciUg)

111 New thread up. You probably won't like it.

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 01:35 PM (bgZok)

112 Captain SalomonÂ’s extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are ...awe-inspiring. The guy was a surgeon. We didn't learn stuff like this from M*A*S*H.

Posted by: t-bird at July 07, 2013 01:35 PM (FcR7P)

113 That plane crash was horrible. My first thought was that it was terrorists. Have I grown complacent? That was NOT my first thought. Seemed like a botched landing and I didn't even think of terrorism for a few hours.

Posted by: t-bird at July 07, 2013 01:37 PM (FcR7P)

114 Have I grown complacent? That was NOT my first thought. Seemed like a botched landing and I didn't even think of terrorism for a few hours. Posted by: t-bird at July 07, 2013 05:37 PM (FcR7P) My first thought was, "Oh crap, this is bad." My second thought was landing gone wrong.

Posted by: Vendette at July 07, 2013 01:37 PM (bgZok)

115 112 Captain SalomonÂ’s extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are ...awe-inspiring. The guy was a surgeon. We didn't learn stuff like this from M*A*S*H. Posted by: t-bird at July 07, 2013 05:35 PM (FcR7P) t-bird: Believe it or not, he was a DENTIST! He finally got the MOH in 2002 by President Bush. The story goes was that combat medals are not supposed to go to medical personnel, but it was more than likely anti-semitism that kept him from getting the award. It's on display at the USC Dental School (his alma mater).

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 07, 2013 01:38 PM (+98Gb)

116

The atom bomb.

The ultimate flaming dirty diaper.

Posted by: Meremortal at July 07, 2013 01:42 PM (1Y+hH)

117 J.J. Sefton at July 07, 2013 05:27 PM (+98Gb) Captain Salomon was a dentist. He was drafted in 1940 and was a private in the infantry. When the Army found out he was a dentist, he was commissioned and worked as a dentist for the Army. When the 2nd battalion surgeon was wounded, he volunteered to fill the spot. The story about how he was awarded the MOH is incredible. The award was made by George W. Bush to Dr. Robert West, the head of the USC dental school (Dr. Salomon was an alum). The actual medal is on display there. When the medal was approved, no living relatives of Dr. Salomon could be found; Dr. West was one of those instrumental in pushing the award so he agreed to accept it.

Posted by: Mr Chips at July 07, 2013 01:42 PM (c8Q61)

118 Captain Thompson of the Medical Service Corps on Corregidor should get a medal. Gen. Wainwright had surrendered and the Japanese were on the island. Wounded Americans were in the Malinda Tunnel being taken care of by Captain Thomas and other medical personnel. The Japanese swaggered in and ordered all the American wounded to be removed from the tunnel to make room for Japanese wounded. When the order was translated by an American traitor named Provoo, Captain Thompson replied - "Tell them to go to Hell, the men are too sick to be moved." Provoo translated the comment for the Japanese who had the Captain dragged out of the tunnel and shot.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at July 07, 2013 01:43 PM (hciUg)

119 Greetings: I guess this article means it's time to prepare myself for this year's A-bomb bathos when our media's rulers trot out the Hiroshima and Nagasaki grannies to remind America of its perfidy in ending WW II. As is customary, the Nanking and Seoul grannies will be elsewhere or unavailable for comment. Alternative programming in select markets will highlight the Japanese-American internment and all the resultant deaths.

Posted by: 11B40 at July 07, 2013 01:46 PM (et2+/)

120 I'm re-reading John Toland's The Rising Sun as bathroom material -- the Battle of Saipan ended about a week ago and I'm reading about Okinawa right now. My Dad served in the Pacific and fought in the Philippines and Okinawa and from what he said about it it sucked. It was hot, muggy, buggy, muddy and everything else you could imagine. The food was lousy. Just about everyone caught dysentery at least once. The enemy were also especially bad with their booby traps, hidden positions and especially their willingness to die. He was on ship off of Okinawa the Sunday morning the kamikazes came and almost got killed by American 20mm cannons shooting at them. Some places were worse than others but pretty much the entire Pacific theater was a bad place to be.

Posted by: Ed Anger at July 07, 2013 01:48 PM (tOkJB)

121 Nevergiveup @ 23, you obviously can get the official word in channels, but I believe it is quite difficult to get to Iwo. Japanese territory, access under joint control of Japan and the USMC. Did a battlefield tour of Okinawa with a guy (he was the one on History Channel's "Underground Cities" series episode dealing with Japanese fortifications on Okinawa). The next day - boy was he excited - he was expecting to go to Iwo with one of the senior USMC officers on Okinawa. The general had called him beause a spot on a planned trip had opened up. The guide had been waiting years to get to Iwo - years. So I don't think it's easy. torquewrench, just a few comments on your thesis. It becomes a prolonged and detailed discussion of its own, but in many cases the island campaigns were neccessary, regardless of the precise details of the final offensive against the home islands. Some campaigns, like Tarawa and the Solomons, were defensive in nature, attempting to secure the line of communications with Australia. Most of the war in the Pacific aside from navy-navy engagements was simply a struggle for airfields. But implicit in that was the need to control/deny airfields, so that your surface fleet could operate safely. As it was, our blockade of Japan was incredibly tight anyway. There were more than a few cases of US sub commanders (and I believe air crew) arguing with higher ups about the ethics of attacking coastal FISHING BOATS - that is how dominant we were, and how swept clean of Japanese maritime/naval activity, the home waters were, by the end. In any case, the political will to end the war (in Japan, things were turned upside-down, and in fact it was a question of will to END the war, not continue it!) was, in the end, closely bound up with the destruction of Japanese cities by the bombing campaign. The meeting of the Big Six on August 9 had as its crucial prerequisite the ability of the emperor to tell his senior commanders, with all of them knowing what he was talking about - that his people had suffered enough. The Hiroshima nuke was the perfect final piece of that puzzle - even though the military shrugged off the new weaponry (with reason - Hiroshima was no more destroyed than most Japanese cities already were, regardless of the explosive used). Adm. Leahy at least pretended to be shocked, shocked at the use of nuclear explosives - but his curious and sudden moral fastidiousness probably was directly linked to his over-estimate of the ability of naval blockade to force a surrender. I think that knowing just what we actually know, without any assumptions, it makes no sense at all to guess that a 1945 sans strategic bombing would have led to a Japanese surrender in the same time frame as the historical one. A prolonged campaign with at least Olympic and perhaps some messy Soviet landings in Hokkaido, with god knows what to follow, seem far more obviously likely.

Posted by: non-purist at July 07, 2013 01:49 PM (afQnV)

122 On 7 July 1944 my wife's uncle and one of his buddies were killed by a Japanese 75 mm artillery shell on Saipan. They were part of the Army 27th Infantry Division. Wife's uncle was a BAR man. There had been a public feud between the Marine ground commander Lt Gen "Howlin Mad" Smith and Army Maj Gen Ralph Smith. The reporters on the scene made it news. My wife's mother always was convinced that the fight between the two Smiths was the reason her baby brother was killed on Saipan.

Posted by: TOF at July 07, 2013 01:56 PM (PV2IU)

123 Mike Hammer, tune in later I'll try to link to video of kayaking. Did both the Sound and Ocean today. Working up to the big trip.

Posted by: Lincolntf at July 07, 2013 02:09 PM (qbVkk)

124 11B40 @ 119 - These whiners never mention the millions of non-white people killed under the imposition of the East Asia Co-Propserity Sphere.

The Japanese should be thankful for the atomic bombs; they saved Japanese lives, though that was not a primary concern at the time.

Absent them, Operation DOWNFALL would have likely resulted in millions of Japanese casualties. Halsey's promise of Japanese being spoken in Hell would have come close to coming true.

So every August, my attitude is they can STFU.

Posted by: another fapping moron at July 07, 2013 02:24 PM (EV3Uf)

125 2 go to nationalww2museum.org to find out more-and visit when you are in NOLA. Morons and Moronettes can stagger there from Bourbon Street.

Posted by: Jeff at July 07, 2013 04:16 PM (MOSsR)

Great reason to go to NOLA as well as the food and drinks. Great museum.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky at July 07, 2013 02:27 PM (baL2B)

126 Some places were worse than others but pretty much the entire Pacific theater was a bad place to be.

Posted by: Ed Anger at July 07, 2013 05:48 PM (tOkJB)

Amen. My late great father, WWII Marine, served for 30 months in the Pacific theater including Peleliu. Never complained about it. He came home thankful to be alive, finished college, got married, started his own business and family, and looked forward to prosperity, which he had as a Christian and businessman of honor. I am so grateful he is not here to see the reign of incompetence of BaroqueÂ©

He was my hero. Not a day goes by that I do not miss him and his sense of humor.

Posted by: ChristyBlinky at July 07, 2013 02:34 PM (baL2B)

127 In the summer of 1941, Sergeant Ward was summoned to 10 Downing Street by prime minister Winston Churchill. The shy New Zealander was struck dumb with awe by the experience and was unable to answer the prime minister's questions. Churchill regarded the reluctant hero with some compassion. "You must feel very humble and awkward in my presence," he said. "Yes, sir," managed Ward. "Then you can imagine how humble and awkward I feel in yours," said Churchill. == wikipedia

Posted by: LC LaWedgie at July 07, 2013 02:42 PM (0It32)

128 I am pretty sure that Saipan and Tinian are some of the 57 states.

Posted by: Obamao at July 07, 2013 02:54 PM (e+pdj)

129 The National Museum of the Pacific War in Fredericksburg, Texas (Admiral Nimitz's hometown, and the old Nimitz hotel forms the front of the museum) is most definitely worth a visit. You can spend a couple of days going through that, especially the several times a year they have weapons demonstrations/re-enactments. Besides the big stuff (aircraft, weapons, etc.), they have items like one of the Japanese mini-subs actually used at Pearl Harbor, personal items of Ensign George Gay (sole survivor of torpedo squadron VT-8 at Midway, including items he carried on him on that flight), personal items of Saburo Sakai (highest scoring Japanese ace to survive the war (56-64 kills depending on source)) including the bloody, holed leather helmet he was wearing when he was hit in the head by a .30 caliber bullet over Guadalcanal (and then flew 640 miles back to Rabaul). It's a great museum.

Posted by: Larry at July 07, 2013 03:04 PM (QNFpd)

130 I would point out that the submarine campaign didn't really take off until 1944, and it hadn't been apparent to everybody in 1943 that it would really be as effective as it turned out to be. They didn't even get the torpedo problems fully fixed until the end of 1943. One important factor in how effective subs were was actually the capture of many of those islands. Where do you think the subs operated from? If they all had sailed from Pearl Harbor or Australia, they would have been much less effective because they spent so much more time in transit. Cutting transit times by 50% or 75% effectively doubles the number of days you're actually on station doing something worthwhile. That's why advance sub bases were established on many of these islands, including Saipan and Guam.

In addition, mine warfare (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation">Operation Starvation</a>

was even more destructive to Japanese coastal shipping than the submarines were. More ships were sunk in the last six months of the war by air-dropped mines than any other cause. Mine warfare is really the red-headed step-child that the other services like to forget about in peacetime (kind of like sniping has tended to be for most of our history).

Posted by: Larry at July 07, 2013 03:21 PM (QNFpd)

131 Geez, another faggy cubfan

Posted by: lloyd pettit at July 07, 2013 03:36 PM (7PG4J)

132 That's USMC General Holland M. "Howling Mad" Smith. He was one mean sumbitch as far as the enemy was concerned. Good thing that the prewar Corps and Army produced some officers like him.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at July 07, 2013 03:47 PM (RZP0w)

133 122 Posted by: TOF at July 07, 2013 05:56 PM (PV2IU) Hey TOF. My uncle was killed the week before, just after Holland Smith relieved Ralph Smith. One of my other uncles was convinced that they 105th and 106th were pushed way too hard and essentially shoved into a Jap meat grinder for no reason. Anyway, I wonder if my uncle and your wife's relative knew each other. I never met my uncle but not a day goes by that I do not think of him.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 07, 2013 03:56 PM (+98Gb)

134 BTW, all this airline disaster stuff is subject to limits on liability and such. Sucks, but there would be no commercial flight without them -- simply too expensive -- even if only 2 die, the damages the rest suffer, would bankrupt them. The insurance would be prohibitive, if it existed.

Posted by: SFGoth at July 07, 2013 04:31 PM (Xts5s)

135 My father (now deceased) was on Tinian and watched one or both of those planes depart.

Posted by: JB at July 07, 2013 05:59 PM (W5u1G)

136

" One of my other uncles was convinced that they 105th and 106th were pushed way too hard and essentially shoved into a Jap meat grinder for no reason. "

Their original stop point that day had covered the gulley where the Japanese "Broke the Jewel", HM Smith ordered them forward, uncovered the gulley (he told the Army commander who pointed it out that Marines would move to cover it, never happened,) and left the Army's flank in the air.

Posted by: Tyrconnell at July 08, 2013 06:21 AM (7ZtBs)

137 NCJ @ 31-
Nothing like being a Chief. Nothing.

Posted by: EROWMER at July 08, 2013 03:17 PM (OONaw)

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